Idiocracy

[Joe S.]

I am not really a twitter user but the #trumpmeltdown is hilarious.

I can?t believe I watched that whole press conference, he is basically inciting a civil war.

 

[Arn]

That was amazing. Utterly jaw dropping.

And I?m loving how the press are now finally just doing what they probably should have and calling it out as outright lying.

https://twitter.com/johnkingcnn/status/1324502002248941574

 

[L K]

That was every bit the train wreck the last four years have been.  Accusing anyone who is not telling him what he wants of being a Democrat.  Apparently Georgia is full of evil Democrats.

 

[Nik]

Personally, for me, that speech did it. I could have bought the argument that you shouldn't go after Trump legally because of what it could do to the country but now, after the way he attacked not just the Democratic system but other Americans and specifically, the race-baiting of "Detroit" and "Philadelphia" being full of corruption I think Trump needs to be pursued for the, let's be fair, probably many crimes he's committed.

 

[Hobbes]

Personally, for me, that speech did it. I could have bought the argument that you shouldn't go after Trump legally because of what it could do to the country but now, after the way he attacked not just the Democratic system but other Americans and specifically, the race-baiting of "Detroit" and "Philadelphia" being full of corruption I think Trump needs to be pursued for the, let's be fair, probably many crimes he's committed.

Good luck with that. His last act as president will be to pardon himself for all of the crimes he has committed, whether they're under investigation yet or not. The only way he can be brought to any justice at all will be for NY State on state-level crimes that aren't subject to presidential pardon.

 

[Nik]

Good luck with that. His last act as president will be to pardon himself for all of the crimes he has committed, whether they're under investigation yet or not. The only way he can be brought to any justice at all will be for NY State on state-level crimes that aren't subject to presidential pardon.

Well, for starters, I'm not sure it's established law that a President can pardon himself so even if he does that it can be challenged and the Supreme Court would be under no obligation to him(and may not want to set a precedent like that with Democrats in the White House)

But beyond that...yeah. New York State would have jurisdiction on most of his financial crimes so do it there.

 

[Deebo]

Can you even get a pardon if you haven't been tried and convicted?

 

[bustaheims]

Can you even get a pardon if you haven't been tried and convicted?

That?s a major legal question that will need to be addressed if he does try to pardon himself - can you pardon someone who has officially been charged with a crime (never tried and convicted, he hasn?t even been indicted at this point - he?s being investigated and he?s being sued, but no charges have been officially laid at this point)?

 

[bustaheims]

But beyond that...yeah. New York State would have jurisdiction on most of his financial crimes so do it there.

Yup. They?re not going to hit him with federal indictments until they?ve exhausted all state options (or after he?s in prison already).

 

[bustaheims]

If Trump pardons himself, he?s tacitly admitting he?s committed felonies. It would also mean he?s basically acknowledging he?s lost the election. Based on his history and rhetoric tell me he doesn?t believe he?s done anything wrong or ever lost anything that he wasn?t cheated out of (like a typical narcissist), so, I?m not sure he?d actually take that step.

Then again, he?ll also do whatever it takes to protect himself, so, who knows.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

If you believe Cohen, the plan would be for Trump to resign post-loss and have Pence pardon him.

 

[L K]

I know there have been a few Republicans who have spoken out on his statements but it?s really disgusting that there isn?t profound condemnation of this crap.  Too many people that are too scared of the base to call him out before he loses.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

I know there have been a few Republicans who have spoken out on his statements but it?s really disgusting that there isn?t profound condemnation of this crap.  Too many people that are too scared of the base to call him out before he loses.

It's naked self-interest. You'll see the distancing after if/when the election is finally called for Biden and the positioning for republican leadership begins. There's obviously a massive base that seemingly could care less about abject corruption or anything approaching morality, so timing is key.

 

[Hobbes]

Can you even get a pardon if you haven't been tried and convicted?

That?s a major legal question that will need to be addressed if he does try to pardon himself - can you pardon someone who has officially been charged with a crime (never tried and convicted, he hasn?t even been indicted at this point - he?s being investigated and he?s being sued, but no charges have been officially laid at this point)?

When Ford pardoned Nixon:

...
Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.
...

https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/740061.asp

That's basically a blanket pardon for anything and everything, whether it was known about or not.

Trump could do the same for himself (although yes, that is subject to some debate so maybe he'd have to hand off the presidency to Pence first and then have Pence do it) but I've read a number of legal scholars suggest that he could try it. Yes, as Nik says that could be challenged to the Supreme Court but I'm not as confident as he is that they wouldn't side with him. All three of the justices he's nominated have been strong proponents of the President having nearly absolute rights. They don't seem concerned with consistency either so they can just make up some sort of exceptional rule as to why no Democrat President would enjoy the same rights.

In the grand scheme of things does it even matter? It's not like America repudiated Trump's presidency. Very nearly 50% of the public supports Trump and everything he stands for to the hilt. Having Biden as the nominal head of the nation doesn't change that.

 

[Nik]

In the grand scheme of things does it even matter?

Not to get too Aaron Sorkin-y about it, yes, it does matter. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that America is a perfect nation but I think making a strong and powerful statement that nobody is above the law, even a President, needs to be made when one breaks the law as consistently and flagrantly as Trump does. If Trump fanatics want to camp out underneath his prison window, fine. But he should be in jail not because I think his politics are repellent but because he's a criminal and that can't be laundered through political popularity.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

This was true even before, but anyone still trying to argue "something something both sides" after what's happened the past couple days really needs to give their head a shake.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

On that note:

https://twitter.com/6abc/status/1324573156883996673

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/peltzmadeline/status/1324471538310127618

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1324571138790510592
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1324568882951106561

 

[princedpw]

https://twitter.com/peltzmadeline/status/1324471538310127618

There are limits to freedom of speech. Is it legal in the US to incite violence? I did not think it was.