Avalanche @ Leafs - Nov. 10th, 7:00pm - TSN4
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
L K
Well-known member
Is this team capable of getting mad? They just seem listless.
Bill_Berg
Well-known member
I might say blow it up, but they don't have their own picks. It's limbo time.
rjd
Well-known member
Funny that the chant when you play that game is "how low can you go"
The 30 somethings value is very unlikely to rise. If they hang on to them for a couple of more years, they're likely to get a lot less asset return.
Their own picks are gone. Nobody is giving them back. They have to proceed with the best path forward from that point. The sooner they start the rebuilding process, the sooner they will be back with a better constructed team.
But they don't have to do anything immediately. It doesn't look good at the moment but they have a little time to see if they can straighten this group out.
They were never going to win a Cup. The only realistic exercise was to see if they could improve enough to make the playoffs. They're only 20 games in with a new coach and half the players changed. Chayka has little choice but to let this play out a little longer.
L K
Well-known member
If this is truly a lost cause season, Matthews value won't really be lower in January/February than it is now. If Nylander is going to waive his NMC he's going to be pretty much as valuable in the offseason as he is now. There is no incentive to blow it up in November unless a team wildly overpays and that isn't likely to happen.
I don't dislike what Joshua has done since coming back but at the same time he's just more of the same in the middle of the lineup of guys who are making 3 million dollars to not score goals.
Tavares-Nylander has always been a problem defensively and I don't understand why the organization is fixated on keeping them paired together. Tavares is not a good defensive player. He tries hard but right now it looks pretty clear that whatever he was hurt with isn't healed and he rushed back because of the other lineup injuries. I don't know if Nylander is still fighting something or just in one of his sulk slumps where offence dries up and his bad defence really gets exposed because you don't get the risk-reward payoff.
Most of the goals last night weren't on Bob but you just need your goalie to make more than 22 saves. Every game is the same thing "oh it's not really his fault....the defence is bad...." Every single game we watch the opposing goalie make big saves at important times. It's just not good enough.
I don't think we have seen very many games where the Leafs looked like they gave up. They tried in this one. They tied it up...defense fell apart and Bob couldn't make a timely save. But at the same time, for a team that has lost 5 of 6 and 4 straight at home....where is the frustration. The team isn't getting PP calls. Get mad. Hit someone. Start a post-whistle scrum. They had the one against Montreal but even that was initiated by Xhekaj taking a late run at McCabe
I don't dislike what Joshua has done since coming back but at the same time he's just more of the same in the middle of the lineup of guys who are making 3 million dollars to not score goals.
Tavares-Nylander has always been a problem defensively and I don't understand why the organization is fixated on keeping them paired together. Tavares is not a good defensive player. He tries hard but right now it looks pretty clear that whatever he was hurt with isn't healed and he rushed back because of the other lineup injuries. I don't know if Nylander is still fighting something or just in one of his sulk slumps where offence dries up and his bad defence really gets exposed because you don't get the risk-reward payoff.
Most of the goals last night weren't on Bob but you just need your goalie to make more than 22 saves. Every game is the same thing "oh it's not really his fault....the defence is bad...." Every single game we watch the opposing goalie make big saves at important times. It's just not good enough.
I don't think we have seen very many games where the Leafs looked like they gave up. They tried in this one. They tied it up...defense fell apart and Bob couldn't make a timely save. But at the same time, for a team that has lost 5 of 6 and 4 straight at home....where is the frustration. The team isn't getting PP calls. Get mad. Hit someone. Start a post-whistle scrum. They had the one against Montreal but even that was initiated by Xhekaj taking a late run at McCabe
herman
Well-known member
In my opinion, outside of Bobrovsky, they're losing because of poor execution: bad coaching, untimely penalties, bad effort, bad line changes, bad player deployment, missed passes, missed tap-ins.
Looks like a team that never played together because they haven't. I think if they clean some shit up, they can win a lot more games. A lot of their losses they could have or should have won. They're close.
Looks like a team that never played together because they haven't. I think if they clean some shit up, they can win a lot more games. A lot of their losses they could have or should have won. They're close.
dappleganger
Well-known member
Nylander for Werenski?
rjd
Well-known member
Agreed on the points that they have time to see this through. Things may get better so don't to anything now.
They do need a second line center. Tavares can't do it anymore. He can't play with pace. Not just on the skating side, but on the decision making side. You don't have to be a burner, but you need to know what you want to do with the puck and attack the zone with purpose. Line's 2 and 3 lack the ability to impose their will on the other team, because they can't make decisions with the puck quick enough, so they just end up bobbling it.
The team reminds me a lot of the years where the Leafs transitioned between Burns and Quinn. They had some pieces (Sundin) but they needed to retool. It took a couple of years. They sold off the assets that made sense (Gilmour, Ellet, Andreychuk), and built things back up. They can do something similar. It's what I was hoping for last year. It's what Boston did when they missed the playoffs that one year. So use the analytical assets at your disposal, find a player that might not be valued as highly as they could be and then make a move for them. The wingers that the Leafs can pair with a center means they just have to find someone who can chain the plays (as Herman would say) playing on a line with say Nylander and Marchenko.
Just please, do not trade future assets for an old potential solution for this year only.
They do need a second line center. Tavares can't do it anymore. He can't play with pace. Not just on the skating side, but on the decision making side. You don't have to be a burner, but you need to know what you want to do with the puck and attack the zone with purpose. Line's 2 and 3 lack the ability to impose their will on the other team, because they can't make decisions with the puck quick enough, so they just end up bobbling it.
The team reminds me a lot of the years where the Leafs transitioned between Burns and Quinn. They had some pieces (Sundin) but they needed to retool. It took a couple of years. They sold off the assets that made sense (Gilmour, Ellet, Andreychuk), and built things back up. They can do something similar. It's what I was hoping for last year. It's what Boston did when they missed the playoffs that one year. So use the analytical assets at your disposal, find a player that might not be valued as highly as they could be and then make a move for them. The wingers that the Leafs can pair with a center means they just have to find someone who can chain the plays (as Herman would say) playing on a line with say Nylander and Marchenko.
Just please, do not trade future assets for an old potential solution for this year only.
Got to at least get the team fully healthy (Marchenko and Rielly mainly) and see if it makes any difference before doing anything significant.
They have 18 pts with 64 games to go. If we assume they'd need 100 pts to make the playoffs (it was 98 last year), that means they'd have to play at about a 107 point pace for the rest of the season (.640 winning pct). Is that possible for this team with it's serious defensive issues? Seems unlikely.
If (when) they're on the outside looking in as the trade deadline approaches, then they will need to see if they can get anything useful for some of the older players...OEL (need him to pick up his game), maybe Sissons and a couple of the other pluggers they signed this summer. Start the process. Then have that conversation with Matthews and Nylander...
rjd
Well-known member
Of course I read it. There is some good stuff in there. I mean there is some bad stuff in there as well, but it's about the Leafs and how they aren't playing well right now. So it's good stuff about bad stuff.wow you read my walls of text?
Matthews is 29, Nylander is 30.
They've given their best years to the Leafs.
If there is a sell off or even if they're a marginal playoff team, what will they be hanging around for?
If they want to be an impact player on a Cup winner, their biological clock and the team circumstances dictate it has to be in another city if they want their chances to be better than a super long shot over the next few years.
rjd
Well-known member
I think that if is the biggest question. Do they want to be an impact player on a Cup winner? It's hard to get a read on these guys. I think it's easy to say that Nylander probably doesn't care if he's an impact player on a Cup winner, but who really knows. At the start of the year there was talk that what Nylander talked about was scoring 50 goals. That would point to a more personal interest than a team one.
They saw what Marner went through. So they're going to play it as "It's hard to get a read on these guys. " until it is time to wave goodbye.
Matthews has an Olympic Gold medal along with U17/U18 golds. Calder. Richard. Lindsay. Hart. All Star. I think he would like a Cup ring.
Habs are looking for a top 6 center. Imagine if they got Matthews for a couple of runs ... Ditto Minnesota. Chayka is going to get tempting offers.
Nylander is an enigma. He's going to play his hundred foot game regardless of the coach and his team. He's done that since he showed up. Matthews and Marner are into two way hockey. Nylander isn't. When the guy won't make a consistent effort defensively, you have to question his desire to win hockey games. He's a world class, superlative offensive talent who isn't into playing two way hockey. Phil Kessel was like that and he did alright so it isn't the end of the world. Nylander is a hard guy to read regardless.
rjd
Well-known member
I imagine the plan is kinda how you've laid it out. Wait till February and see where they are at. If things are bad, then they go to people and start to see if they want to be moved. You leave it up to Matthews, and if he does want to be moved, I imagine Minnesota might be a destination for him. Then it's what can you get from them for Matthews. They have their own first rounders for the next three years. For me that would be the starting point, and then you would want to see if they could throw in some other pieces, like an almost ready prospect, preferably a d-man or center.
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