R2, G4: Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - May 11th, 7:30pm - SN, Fan 590

[dappleganger]

Sober second thoughts

Woll easily had his best game and gave the Leafs a solid chance to win. Bodes well moving forward if he has his mojo back

The four penalties in the first period were mostly legitimate. I think you can debate the boarding call and the Knies hook but they are both technically penalties. The Panthers getting away with elbows to the head however should have broken up some of those calls and it's hard to get your game going when breathing gets you a penalty. It doesn't excuse the second period but I get why the first continued to be a disaster

Kulikov elbowing Marner and the Panthers opening the bench on Nylander are honestly worse plays than the Domi hit at the end of the game. I'm also not remotely surprised if Domi gets suspended because I think Parros is a biased petty man. Ekblad charged into a pile earlier in the series and took a guy out blindside at the end of a game and no one even said anything about it

The PP needs to adapt. The Panthers are too aggressive at pressuring the puck carrier and the Leafs continue to try and make slow decisions and the Panthers are eating that up

Panthers are pressuring the 2 players at top of the zone on the PK. Quickly get the puck to the net and flood the crease with the other 3 forwards.

 

[Andy007]

Tough one to swallow. Not that the Leafs' didn't deserve their penalties, it's just frustrating that Florida is allowed to elbow, hit from behind and interfere without consequence. That blantant near-charge directly from behind hit on Tanev in full view of everyone that wasn't called early on was absolutely mindboggling. It's hard to play a game when one team is worried about every minor infraction and the other can just go into full-on WWE cage match mode.

All that being said, Leafs really need to adapt. Dump and chase with nobody chasing doesn't work. Standing still on the PP while Florida attacks and clears does not work. Marner on the periphery slowly looking for long passes to Matthews ABSOLUTELY doesn't work. I'd love to see Toronto use some more speed, carry the puck in, shoot and crash the net. Brobovsky has given up alot of goals when we, you know, actually shoot on him.

But ultimately my move would be to simply hire one of Bettman, Campbell or Parros' children/close relatives for a cushy, very high ranking Leafs front office job, and reap in the beneifts of conflict of interest, pure Boston and Florida style.

 

[dappleganger]

Tough one to swallow. Not that the Leafs' didn't deserve their penalties, it's just frustrating that Florida is allowed to elbow, hit from behind and interfere without consequence. That blantant near-charge directly from behind hit on Tanev in full view of everyone that wasn't called early on was absolutely mindboggling. It's hard to play a game when one team is worried about every minor infraction and the other can just go into full-on WWE cage match mode.

All that being said, Leafs really need to adapt. Dump and chase with nobody chasing doesn't work. Standing still on the PP while Florida attacks and clears does not work. Marner on the periphery slowly looking for long passes to Matthews ABSOLUTELY doesn't work. I'd love to see Toronto use some more speed, carry the puck in, shoot and crash the net. Brobovsky has given up alot of goals when we, you know, actually shoot on him.

But ultimately my move would be to simply hire one of Bettman, Campbell or Parros' children/close relatives for a cushy, very high ranking Leafs front office job, and reap in the beneifts of conflict of interest, pure Boston and Florida style.

Giving the League billions of dollars doesn't seem to be working...

 

[azzurri63]

I think, in reality, they are probably done. Best players invisible once again. So very disappointing. Matthews in particularly is completely unequipped to deal with this time of year.

Going to be interesting to see where we are come October. Treliving has a lot of work to do. Get used to see futility because the next few years are going to be hard to watch in my opinion. Core kept intact all these years, no draft picks, nothing in the pipeline yikes. Management are clueless and some of them should have been gone along with Dubas to not have seen the writing on the wall years ago. Top dollars for soft players who are not willing to do what's needed to win this time of year. The saddest part is the D and net minding was greatly improved but when your stars are no-shows what is the point.

 

[azzurri63]

Wow maybe I'm watching a different game but reading some of the post game comments from Berube, Matthews. No wonder this team hasn't won anything.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Leafs aren't doing themselves any favors, but the officiating is absolute bullshit.

Panthers elbow Stolarz in the head game 2, knock him out of the series. Nothing done about it.

Tavares gets elbowed in the head, nothing done about it.

Marner takes an elbow to the head last night, nothing done about it.

Tanev gets rocked by a crosscheck, nothing done about it.

If those were Leafs dishing out elbows, they would be suspended for the rest of the playoffs, just like Kadri and Bunting use to be.

There is a double standard and it is very hard to ignore.

 

[azzurri63]

Leafs aren't doing themselves any favors, but the officiating is absolute bullshit.

Panthers elbow Stolarz in the head game 2, knock him out of the series. Nothing done about it.

Tavares gets elbowed in the head, nothing done about it.

Marner takes an elbow to the head last night, nothing done about it.

Tanev gets rocked by a crosscheck, nothing done about it.

If those were Leafs dishing out elbows, they would be suspended for the rest of the playoffs, just like Kadri and Bunting use to be.

There is a double standard and it is very hard to ignore.

Ya I agree with you and it’s been that way for a long time. Maybe I’m a bit harsh on our guys for not doing the same but as it has been mentioned maybe the fear of taking penalties which Florida seems to get away with. Regardless I don’t think this team or some are built for it. Always said it’s something you have or you don’t and too many in blue and white don’t and worst part it’s our core.

 

[ZBBM]

Everybody is frustrated but after all they are going toe to toe with the champs and are right there. This team is by far the most playoff ready since the Core came in. The D and the goaltending and the playstyle (much as I hate it during the regular season) are why.

I am going to throw some light love Matthews' way. He is all over the ice doing everything you could want except hit the net. He is injured, folks. Has been all season. He is not suddenly going to "find his scoring touch." That is a huge obstacle that utlimately I don't think we ca overcome.

The entire Core 4 + Rielly + Knies have shown up to play and are producing, except for 2 games. Of course they need to do more to beat the champs.

An even bigger problem is the bottom 6. McMann was supposed to be a difference maker. God love Jarnkrok, who skates like a dervish and gives 110% all the time — to no effect. Laughton needs to do more. Domi is either a hero or a chump. Etc etc.

Once again the bottom 6 is letting us down. Berube has GOT to swap in 89, 64, and maybe even Steeves. Maurice did it, and it has helped the Panthers.

 

[Chris]

Going to be interesting to see where we are come October. Treliving has a lot of work to do. Get used to see futility because the next few years are going to be hard to watch in my opinion. Core kept intact all these years, no draft picks, nothing in the pipeline yikes. Management are clueless and some of them should have been gone along with Dubas to not have seen the writing on the wall years ago. Top dollars for soft players who are not willing to do what's needed to win this time of year. The saddest part is the D and net minding was greatly improved but when your stars are no-shows what is the point.

Last I checked the series was 2-2 with 2 of the 3 remaining games in Toronto. It's not over yet, though I am not optimistic based on what I've seen the past couple of games.

As for the core guys, they've been good at times and not so good at others. The next 2 (or 3) games are the big (last?) opportunity for them to make a statement - one way or the other.

Bottom 6, what is there to say. McMann has done nothing. What a disappointment. At least run the goalie or punch out Marchand at the end of the game last night. Jarnkrok is Jarnkrok, now 5 goals in 103 playoff games. Anyone expecting him to put one in the net is delusional. Laughton has been OK but not a difference maker. Lorentz, I don't really get all the Lorentz love I see. The guy is about the softest 6.04 forward out there. He should be slamming Panther defenders on the forecheck but rarely makes significant contact. Not enough in that bottom six to compensate for when Auston Matthews is unable to score.

Gotta put Robertson in at home where the matchups can be controlled. Maybe Kampf too. Steeves would be interesting, though I don't think there's any chance of that unless several forwards are too hurt to play. He couldn't even get in the regular season lineup.

Post script...I really find myself hating the way the Panthers are allowed to play. So many cheap shots, late hits, elbows...

 

[Redleaf]

Whoever said that this team will only go as far as Matthews can take us, was absolutely correct.

We’re finally playing with a defensive mindset, some good big Dmen and ….not 1… but 2 GOOD goaltenders ….and our captain and leading goal scorer is injured (or not playing to his full capabilities).

All we needed to get back in the game last night, OR in the OT in game 3…. Was a SINGLE goal. If Matthews was playing like he normally can, we’d be up in this series by at least 3-1 right now.

 

[Ozzie]

Leafs aren't doing themselves any favors, but the officiating is absolute bullshit.

Panthers elbow Stolarz in the head game 2, knock him out of the series. Nothing done about it.

Tavares gets elbowed in the head, nothing done about it.

Marner takes an elbow to the head last night, nothing done about it.

Tanev gets rocked by a crosscheck, nothing done about it.

If those were Leafs dishing out elbows, they would be suspended for the rest of the playoffs, just like Kadri and Bunting use to be.

There is a double standard and it is very hard to ignore.

This is so easy to correct for the next decade. There are 12 Billion reasons this can be fixed in an instant.

But it seems ownership like Rogers are pussys and this influences the culture of the team too. Either you are there to win like Panthers, Lightening, Vegas...... or you are not.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

This is so easy to correct for the next decade. There are 12 Billion reasons this can be fixed in an instant.

But it seems ownership like Rogers are pussys and this influences the culture of the team too. Either you are there to win like Panthers, Lightening, Vegas...... or you are not.

Leafs complain to the NHL, they point to MLSE's bottom line and shrug their shoulders.

You get teams like Florida, who not that long ago were threatening to move the team. They had 7500 people showing up to games.

It's all about the money. NHL needs teams like Florida to win, to get butts in seats, eyeballs on TV. Leafs win, they sell some more merch and have a parade, which the NHL doesn't really care about. Leafs are pretty tapped out as a revenue stream.

It's how Vegas won a cup within a few years of being an expansion team.

 

[Ozzie]

The entire Core 4 + Rielly + Knies have shown up to play and are producing, except for 2 games. Of course they need to do more to beat the champs.

An even bigger problem is the bottom 6. McMann was supposed to be a difference maker. God love Jarnkrok, who skates like a dervish and gives 110% all the time — to no effect. Laughton needs to do more. Domi is either a hero or a chump. Etc etc.

Once again the bottom 6 is letting us down. Berube has GOT to swap in 89, 64, and maybe even Steeves. Maurice did it, and it has helped the Panthers.

Its interesting the diverging takes we have on this..... because I think the main elements of the other 45% of the Cap has been stellar while elements of the 55% have been poor. Specifically the 28% of the Cap that represents 16 and 34.

Knies, Rielly, Benoit, OEL, Pacioretty, Tanev, Woll and Stolarz have all contributed way more as a group over the playoffs than a combined 16 and 34. Elements of the "depth" beyond the Core4 have been great.

I agree the bottom 6 has not been strong.... although Domi has provided some punch and L4 has done their job in shutdown and keeping play in the OZone at an acceptable level.

But none of the Bottom 6 wear letters and none of them make more than Domi. And I don't think they amount to 28% of the Cap (I didn't do the math).

 

[azzurri63]

Its interesting the diverging takes we have on this..... because I think the main elements of the other 45% of the Cap has been stellar while elements of the 55% have been poor. Specifically the 28% of the Cap that represents 16 and 34.

Knies, Rielly, Benoit, OEL, Pacioretty, Tanev, Woll and Stolarz have all contributed way more as a group over the playoffs than a combined 16 and 34. Elements of the "depth" beyond the Core4 have been great.

I agree the bottom 6 has not been strong.... although Domi has provided some punch and L4 has done their job in shutdown and keeping play in the OZone at an acceptable level.

But none of the Bottom 6 wear letters and none of them make more than Domi. And I don't think they amount to 28% of the Cap (I didn't do the math

Chris Pronger said it best. He has not even in the first 2 games which we won seen if the stars are willing to do what it takes to win in the playoffs. Level of commitment and sacrifice the top guys haven't figured it out. This has been the question and discussion for years now and I don't know why management hasn't figured it out that this group doesn't have it. Should have moved on from them because in my opinion and I've said it before you either have that or you don't and this soft core doesn't. Your not going to win playing on the perimeter is what he said and he's right. You can have all the skill in the world but when you avoid contact, avoid the tough areas where you have to go to score sorry that aint cutting it.

 

[cabber24]

Matthews need to put the fucking puck in the net, just once and were probably 3-1 right now.

 

[Ozzie]

Chris Pronger said it best. He has not even in the first 2 games which we won seen if the stars are willing to do what it takes to win in the playoffs. Level of commitment and sacrifice the top guys haven't figured it out. This has been the question and discussion for years now and I don't know why management hasn't figured it out that this group doesn't have it. Should have moved on from them because in my opinion and I've said it before you either have that or you don't and this soft core doesn't. Your not going to win playing on the perimeter is what he said and he's right. You can have all the skill in the world but when you avoid contact, avoid the tough areas where you have to go to score sorry that aint cutting it.

I have a very good idea why this is the case.

Its Toronto/Ontario business culture is not as competitive as other markets. And Rogers particularly is not from a competitive market. While some owners of some other teams are from hyper competive business cultures and hyper competitive industries. So they move swiftly to win.

Rogers is an oligopoly. It really doesnt need to compete because it has a charter to print money with its telco licenses issued by the federal government. I was actually a part of bringing in foreign competitors to Canada and the government totally killed it. Rates in Canada are super high, service is low.

There is a lack of cut throat competive Culture here that permeates many areas. Business people tend to lack 1. The honest acuity to identify problems quickly, and 2. implement changes swiftly....sometimes even risky changes....because they dont like to rock the boat or they don't like to hurt feelings or some other consideration aside from winning (or making money). They are generally not aggressive to win at all costs.

Toronto Maple Leafs is a charter. It is a monopoly in its market to print money. It always has been and always will be. It wins by just existing....and raises prices just because there is no one else to compete with in Toronto (just like Rogers does in telecoms in Canada). But to compete to win in a market of 32 teams.... the ownership needs to have the ability to do 1 and 2 above and have a mamagement team that can aggressively do that. But they dont have that acumen.

Compare to, for example Vincent Viola owner of the Panthers. He grew up in the most competitive market in the West....Manhattan. He became a lawyer at one of the top NYC law firms. He started his own high frequency trading hedge fund firm.... watch Billions to get a Hollywood version of this industry where its win at all costs. His decisions are super savvy and take big risks and move fast.

For example his team won the Presidents Trophy in 2022.... but lost in second round of playoffs. So he fired his coach. He traded his superstar forward with 115 points that season in Huberdeau (15 points more than Marner) and his star defenseman in Weegar.

It didn't take him 5 more years after the loss to identify the problem. He identified it in June. And identified what piece he needed and was willing to take massive risk to solve it. He got Tkachuk and Maurice.

He made the finals the next year and won the Cup the year after.

Rogers....and just about any other local owner such as Ontario Teachers or whoever.....do not have that level of compete.


[NOTE: its now become obvious to me during this series that Viola also made another brilliant play because when he identified that Marchand and the Bruins were getting away with a lot of dirty play and getting favorable whistles and DOPS decisions under the umbrella of Colin Campbell (director of operations of NHL) because Gregory Campbell was with the Bruins......he gave Gregory a sweetheart position of Assitant GM. And this year took an additional step to get Marchand! And used LTIR to do it. His team gets away with brutality with an intent to injure and eliminate]

If you are unable or unwilling to play at this level.... you will not win. You will have players on your roster that everyone knows should have been traded back in 2021. And because od that you will keep reliving the same problems over and over again. Because you never were honest about identifying them and you never moved fast to correct them.

And you will have your MVP goalie out with a concussion from an illegal elbow with intent to injure without even a peep from the NHL.