dappleganger
Well-known member
Sundin didn't really rely on the wrister as much, he kinda had that half-slapper. He'd probably still use a pretty stiff stick.
What's wrong with Auston Matthews?
- Thread starter ZBBM
- Start date
Sundin didn't really rely on the wrister as much, he kinda had that half-slapper. He'd probably still use a pretty stiff stick.
ZBBM
Well-known member
Stupidity like that aside, for him to suddenly return to Prior Matthews form like flipping a switch makes no sense. He's been off his game for a season and a half.
Until proven otherwise, I'm going with this little burst being just that: a little burst.
herman
Well-known member
Yeah, because he had a club! haha
I hope this comes up in every coaching interview Marc Savard has going forward.
Zee
Well-known member
Real talk here, how soon before Matthews wants out? I'm assuming there's no playoffs this season, and probably not next season either. Given Auston's age and his desire to win a Cup, I'm sure he won't want to be part of a rebuilding team.
So, Jan 2027 - if the Leafs are clearly out of a playoff spot 1 year from now, do you think Auston will ask for a trade and waive his NMC to facilitate? At that point the acquiring team will have Matthews for next years' playoffs + 1 more year under contract.
Thoughts?
So, Jan 2027 - if the Leafs are clearly out of a playoff spot 1 year from now, do you think Auston will ask for a trade and waive his NMC to facilitate? At that point the acquiring team will have Matthews for next years' playoffs + 1 more year under contract.
Thoughts?
I think it's a conversation that is ongoing. I think there is a couple of ways this can go down.
1. The team doesn't embrace the fact that they are going to miss the playoffs this year, and tries to make it, and makes a bigger mess of things this year. I think that will cause the team to be in a bad spot for multiple years down the road. It will be a downward spiral from there, and I do think that Matthews will absolutely want out at that point. How open is he to a trade, who knows at that point?
2. The team realizes this isn't there year. They sell off what they can, and collect some picks and some close to ready prospects for this year. They don't need a whole lot, but if they can get into the first round, that would be great. In the offseason, they assess where guys like Holinka, Danford, and Johansson are at, and perhaps sign some depth. They need to get the prospect pipeline back up and running first, because I think once you have that, then you can say to Matthews that with good prospects coming along, they should have a strong chance to compete year over year.
I think to a certain degree, Matthews realizes that to be considered one of the greats, you should try and stick to one or two teams. I always thought Gretzky's last couple of years were bad as he bounced from L.A. to St. Louis to the Rangers. Would have been nice for him to just play things out in L.A. Personally I think he values staying with the Leafs his entire career.
Does Matthews want to be a 4 or 5 time Rocket Richard winner that played for 4 or 5 different teams? I think for certain players it can hurt their legacy a bit. Mike Gartner was a good goal scorer for example, but he bounced around 5 different teams, and I wonder if that tarnished his accomplishments a bit.
Zee
Well-known member
The first sign of struggle just happens to coincide with him getting into his later years. He doesn't have another 10 great years left in him. You don't think he wants to win a Cup?
Guru Tugginmypuddah
Well-known member
The piece Elliotte Friedman did on Marner recently....
Where did it go wrong for Mitch Marner and the Maple Leafs?
On Friday night, Mitch Marner will make his first return to Toronto since joining the Vegas Golden Knights. Elliotte Friedman writes about how Marner and his hometown team ended up separating.
"That summer, on Aug. 23, Matthews signed a four-year extension 10 months before hitting unrestricted free agency. There is a story behind this no one knew. According to several sources, the groundwork for that contract was actually laid in the summer of 2022. Two years before he could leave, one year before he could even sign, the Maple Leafs wanted to know if there was any reason to worry. After conversations about the state of the franchise and how everyone envisioned the future, Matthews told the Leafs he would re-sign as long as the train didn’t suffer a Fugitive-like crash — a promise he kept.
Two years before Marner could exit, there were conversations, but the Maple Leafs did not receive the same assurances. There was internal discussion about trading him, but as Shanahan has said many times, he was determined to bet on talent. He believed, like his mid-90s Red Wings, the Maple Leafs would figure it out."
Joe S.
Moderator
I'm sure he wants to win a cup. And of course I have no idea how he really is, but just watching him play and in interviews he is so vanilla and low key. Maybe in the room he's a leader. But nothing that I can see shows me that he should be captain, other than he's the most talented player on the team.
Making him captain was another unforced Treliving error.
I know I'm not really answering your question, just kind of have meandering thoughts on this.
Zee
Well-known member
I've been a Leafs fan all my life, dating back to the 70s. In all that time, I felt the Leafs were serious Cup contenders only twice: the 1992/93 Clark/Gilmour team, and the season immediately after they drafted Matthews, Marner, and Nylander as the team's centerpieces. I’m intentionally excluding the Quinn years, I know they made Conference Finals runs, but for some odd reason, it never felt real to me.
The post 2016 era has been a massive failure by management. They wasted three amazing draft picks by failing to build a competent defense or goaltending solution around them. It is baffling to watch such potential squandered. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for Matthews to see the team crumble around him. We are entering a decline with no high draft picks or top prospects in the system and frankly, this is exactly why I expect Matthews to leave.
L K
Well-known member
If you asked me 12 months ago whether the Leafs should entertain moving Matthews I would have hit you in the head.
Mats Sundin being the franchise record holder in goals/points because no-one stays here sucks. We have FIVE players who have played 1000 games for the Maple Leafs.
But I really just don't see a way where this franchise is able to retool quickly. The mismanagement by Lou, Dubas, Shanahan and Treliving has been pure incompetence.
The drafting from this organization after Auston Matthews has been pathetic
2017 - Liljegren and noone
2018 - Sandin, Durzi, Holmberg (pretty decent)
2019 - Robertson and noone
2020 - No-one (RIP Amirov)
2021 - Knies
2022 - Minten, Hildeby, Grebenkin
2023 - Cowan
2024 - Noone
2025 - No-one
If it wasn't a first or second round pick, the Leafs did nothing with them. Only Cowan, Knies, Hildeby and Robertson are even in the organization. It's just incompetence left and right.
I compared the Leafs to Vegas during the GDT:
Hertl + 2 3rds for 2025 1st + David Edstrom (2023 1st)
Noah Hanifin (75% retained) for a 1st + 3rd + 5th and Daniil Miramanov (undrafted)
Jack Eichel + 3rd for Alex Tuck, Payton Krebs + 1st + 2nd
All of Vegas's 1st round pick trades have led to them acquiring guys with term or guys who they sign to contract extensions. All three players are impact players.
The Leafs 1st round pick trades have amounted to:
Laughton (nice player but he's a bottom 6 forward who can stretch into the top 6) we gave up a 1st + Grebenkin
- Points aren't everything but Grebenkin has 3G 7A for 10P in 37GP for Philly. Laughton has 8G 2A 10P in 35GP for Toronto.
- I take Laughton over Grebenkin 1000 times out of 10 but 10 points is not acceptable production for a guy who cost a 1st round pick.
Carlo for a 1st + Minten
- 13G 13A 26P +17 for Boston.....F&$*( You Treliving
McCabe + Lafferty for a 1st + 2nd + bit parts
- Solid trade. Exactly the kind of thing you should be looking to use your 1st round picks for
O'Reilly + Acciari for a 1st + 2nd + 3rd + 5th
- On its own not bad. The right kind of acquisition but this was a move that needed to come with a contract extension
Nick Foligno for a 1st + 2 4ths
- Eh, Foligno was not remotely worth a 1st round pick. His back was bothering him before the trade and his back exploded right after we acquired him.
5 1st round picks have the Leafs sitting with McCabe + Carlo + Laughton. That's just pathetic asset management.
Mats Sundin being the franchise record holder in goals/points because no-one stays here sucks. We have FIVE players who have played 1000 games for the Maple Leafs.
But I really just don't see a way where this franchise is able to retool quickly. The mismanagement by Lou, Dubas, Shanahan and Treliving has been pure incompetence.
The drafting from this organization after Auston Matthews has been pathetic
2017 - Liljegren and noone
2018 - Sandin, Durzi, Holmberg (pretty decent)
2019 - Robertson and noone
2020 - No-one (RIP Amirov)
2021 - Knies
2022 - Minten, Hildeby, Grebenkin
2023 - Cowan
2024 - Noone
2025 - No-one
If it wasn't a first or second round pick, the Leafs did nothing with them. Only Cowan, Knies, Hildeby and Robertson are even in the organization. It's just incompetence left and right.
I compared the Leafs to Vegas during the GDT:
Hertl + 2 3rds for 2025 1st + David Edstrom (2023 1st)
Noah Hanifin (75% retained) for a 1st + 3rd + 5th and Daniil Miramanov (undrafted)
Jack Eichel + 3rd for Alex Tuck, Payton Krebs + 1st + 2nd
All of Vegas's 1st round pick trades have led to them acquiring guys with term or guys who they sign to contract extensions. All three players are impact players.
The Leafs 1st round pick trades have amounted to:
Laughton (nice player but he's a bottom 6 forward who can stretch into the top 6) we gave up a 1st + Grebenkin
- Points aren't everything but Grebenkin has 3G 7A for 10P in 37GP for Philly. Laughton has 8G 2A 10P in 35GP for Toronto.
- I take Laughton over Grebenkin 1000 times out of 10 but 10 points is not acceptable production for a guy who cost a 1st round pick.
Carlo for a 1st + Minten
- 13G 13A 26P +17 for Boston.....F&$*( You Treliving
McCabe + Lafferty for a 1st + 2nd + bit parts
- Solid trade. Exactly the kind of thing you should be looking to use your 1st round picks for
O'Reilly + Acciari for a 1st + 2nd + 3rd + 5th
- On its own not bad. The right kind of acquisition but this was a move that needed to come with a contract extension
Nick Foligno for a 1st + 2 4ths
- Eh, Foligno was not remotely worth a 1st round pick. His back was bothering him before the trade and his back exploded right after we acquired him.
5 1st round picks have the Leafs sitting with McCabe + Carlo + Laughton. That's just pathetic asset management.
Arn
Well-known member
I agree with you on the general jist of the mismanagement. And the way you spell it out there makes it even more stark.
But I do think they can rebuild around Matthews. And I'd like them to do so. Cos I think he can still be your guy, assuming that's what he wants, of course.
It just takes a real proper no holds bar tear down of most of the roster around him. It's probably a 2 stage one where you try to get as many picks and prospects as you can for UFAs/RFAs and players you don't see as the future now. Then in the summer use those and some of the other players like Riellys or Tanevs or maybe even a Nylander to trade for things you need along with any free agents you can sign etc.
The problem is Matthews' best years are likely behind him and he's injury prone. If he was rock solid like Sid or Ovi then sure, but you have to wonder if his health can remain. They also don't have a lot of time on his contract and he's already turning 29 this year. When does the decline happen in earnest? 33? 34? Will we really be able to retool around him when he probably has 5 good years left? Unfortunately they've wasted the best years of the best players the franchise has ever seen.