2020 Blue Jays General Season Thread

[bustaheims]

As the saying goes, if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough. There’s always been acceptable cheating in sports. What the Astros did clearly crossed the line.

[Nik Bethune]

What the Astros did clearly crossed the line.

I suppose but I think it's interesting to ask why that is ethically. It isn't that using technology crosses the line between against the rules and not against the rules because things like a spitball/scuffball is against the rules and that's part of the grand tradition of baseball cheating. So is it that they did it and won a championship? That they did it despite being a talented team? That it was a group thing as opposed to an individual effort?

Again, it was wrong and they shouldn't do it and yadda yadda and all but it doesn't, like, offend me.

[bustaheims]

I suppose but I think it's interesting to ask why that is ethically. It isn't that using technology crosses the line between against the rules and not against the rules because things like a spitball/scuffball is against the rules and that's part of the grand tradition of baseball cheating. So is it that they did it and won a championship? That they did it despite being a talented team? That it was a group thing as opposed to an individual effort?

Again, it was wrong and they shouldn't do it and yadda yadda and all but it doesn't, like, offend me.

For me, it’s that they went outside the players and coaches that were on the field or in the dugout. If your cheating scheme relies on people in the stands or the video room or whatever, it crosses the line. I’d consider a video camera to be the same - they’re not on the field of play or operated by players or coaching staff. Using them to cheat is going too far. If it can’t be done by the guys in uniform while they’re in uniform, it’s outside the acceptable realm.

[Nik Bethune]

For me, it’s that they went outside the players and coaches that were on the field or in the dugout. If your cheating scheme relies on people in the stands or the video room or whatever, it crosses the line. I’d consider a video camera to be the same - they’re not on the field of play or operated by players or coaching staff. Using them to cheat is going too far. If it can’t be done by the guys in uniform while they’re in uniform, it’s outside the acceptable realm.

Eh. That makes a convincing case that it's different. I don't know about worse.

Like, the game over the last decade has seen teams spending millions of dollars to get the most advanced analytical information they can possibly get which is then put into manager's hands in whatever form they want so that they can make decisions on where to precisely position each defensive player on every pitch against every particular hitter but a guy in the bleachers trying to steal signs is a bridge too far in terms of off-field influence on the game?

I'm not disagreeing, exactly, obviously an ethical or moral question has no right or wrong answer and I understand and agree with the idea that what the Astros did should be against the rules and I'd be fine with the team receiving a much harsher penalty than they did. I just can't get worked up over it is all.

[bustaheims]

Like, the game over the last decade has seen teams spending millions of dollars to get the most advanced analytical information they can possibly get which is then put into manager's hands in whatever form they want so that they can make decisions on where to precisely position each defensive player on every pitch against every particular hitter but a guy in the bleachers trying to steal signs is a bridge too far in terms of off-field influence on the game?

I think the difference there is that one is a fairly standard practice, and the information being relayed is aggregate data and trends that indicate likely possibilities, while the other is "this is what's happening right now." One allows the team to make informed decisions, while the other is telling the guy at the plate what pitch is coming now.

To me, they're quite different scenarios.

[Nik Bethune]

I think the difference there is that one is a fairly standard practice, and the information being relayed is aggregate data and trends that indicate likely possibilities, while the other is "this is what's happening right now." One allows the team to make informed decisions, while the other is telling the guy at the plate what pitch is coming now.

To me, they're quite different scenarios.

Except that all the Astros could do was guess at what pitch they thought was coming next based on having cracked the other team's signals, which can change at any moment. In the future, now that we know more about what the Astros did, it seems unlikely that short of using some sort of electronic signalling device(which we still don't know was ever used) you could communicate that to a hitter. After all, banging a trashcan now would lead to a pitcher and catcher changing their signals immediately.

That said, they are different. But different or not still isn't the question. Worse or not is. I'm not inclined to do it but if I had to say which has been worse for the sport? Eh...I could make the argument either way.