Author Topic: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590  (Read 2956 times)

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Offline gunnar36

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #180 on: November 13, 2019, 10:01:35 PM »
Special teams has been the achillies heel of this team so far this season.  The powerplay has been anything but dangerous....well it has often been dangerous for giving up scoring chances.  The players seem to be lost on the PP, and with the high end talent they have...they should be at least finding ways to throw a few shots toward the net you would think?

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #181 on: November 13, 2019, 10:05:11 PM »
Iím done.   This team is just not good

I think Leaf fans should face the fact that the rebuild has failed.  I hate to say it, but Eugene Melnyk was right.  The Leafs forgot about the defence.  You know what really sucks?  It was Lou's decision to go out and get Andersen that probably torpedoed the rebuild more than anything else.
I'm ready to do a few more things than to call year 4 of a rebuild with players who are mostly 25 and under a failure.

If they are going to fix it from within, then the guys they have need to change a bit.  Matthews and Tavares have to take games over and dictate what happens.  It looks like they are taking what the other teams offers them rather than just going out there and forcing the issue.  I think they can do it.  Last year there was a game against Detroit where it just look like Tavares refused to lose that game.  They need that mentality now.  They need the big four to cover up the weaknesses throughout the rest of the team.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be.Ē - Khalil Gibran

Online Bender

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #182 on: November 13, 2019, 10:05:18 PM »
Iím laughing
Yup. The reactions here are priceless

I mean people are frustrated.  This isn't a case of people having an over reaction to one bad game.  This team is not playing well at all.  They are completely lost in their own end.  They look disinterested in playing for large chunks of the game.  People have been told that the Leafs were going to rebuild.  That they were going to build a team that was going to compete for the cup year after year.  Right now that is not happening.  If they don't turn this around, they will miss the playoffs.
I'm going to play Devils advocate here. As much as I hate missing the playoffs missing the playoffs but having valuable pieces on your roster is a lot different than having literally no talent and are the 2015 Leafs team. Tampa missed the year Stamkos was injured. Boston missed 2yrs straight. St. Louis was out the year before (and were last in the league at New Year's last year).

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take two steps forward. But right now I don't think that's whats happening and it's been very frustrating.  But I don't think one year.out of the playoffs means another 50 years of garbage.
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Online Bender

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #183 on: November 13, 2019, 10:06:48 PM »
Iím laughing
Yup. The reactions here are priceless

I mean people are frustrated.  This isn't a case of people having an over reaction to one bad game.  This team is not playing well at all.  They are completely lost in their own end.  They look disinterested in playing for large chunks of the game.  People have been told that the Leafs were going to rebuild.  That they were going to build a team that was going to compete for the cup year after year.  Right now that is not happening.  If they don't turn this around, they will miss the playoffs.

Really.  You can complain about the coaching, but Dubas holds more than half the blame.  The Ceci trade was a mistake (I'd rather have Zaitsev), Barrie for whatever reason has been a complete dud, he signed a 4C who doesn't even play), and too many of the fill-ins are don't add anything of value.  His "process" appears to have a few flaws in it.
Why would anyone rather have a bad contract for longer than having an equivalent contract for 1yr? I'll be upset if he's not traded but I don't know in what world keeping Zaitsev would've been the right move.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #184 on: November 13, 2019, 10:08:53 PM »
Iím laughing
Yup. The reactions here are priceless

I mean people are frustrated.  This isn't a case of people having an over reaction to one bad game.  This team is not playing well at all.  They are completely lost in their own end.  They look disinterested in playing for large chunks of the game.  People have been told that the Leafs were going to rebuild.  That they were going to build a team that was going to compete for the cup year after year.  Right now that is not happening.  If they don't turn this around, they will miss the playoffs.
I'm going to play Devils advocate here. As much as I hate missing the playoffs missing the playoffs but having valuable pieces on your roster is a lot different than having literally no talent and are the 2015 Leafs team. Tampa missed the year Stamkos was injured. Boston missed 2yrs straight. St. Louis was out the year before (and were last in the league at New Year's last year).

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take two steps forward. But right now I don't think that's whats happening and it's been very frustrating.  But I don't think one year.out of the playoffs means another 50 years of garbage.

Where I think that is problematic is the lack of a pick in the first round this year if they fall out of the top ten.  Also it depends on how the team handles it.  If they become complacent and just accept it then that could be a problem.  It seems that would lead the Leafs to turning in to Dallas north.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be.Ē - Khalil Gibran

Offline Sunbro

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #185 on: November 13, 2019, 10:09:36 PM »
Although the score didn't reflect this, we dominated the first and second period. We have the skill to be a top team, but we consistently perform poorly when it comes to special teams (PP & PK). The system isn't working, and that system is designed by the coaching staff. The players are just as frustrated as we are.

There are many teams performing better with less talent. This isn't a team that's "missing" anything in terms of player resources. The issue is poor asset (player) allocation, and that falls squarely on the coaches.

Dubas has made some great acquisitions in the off season, with limited cap space, but it doesn't seem that Babcock is interested in using those assets where they should be used. There is a clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock. Several people already mentioned a few of these poor decisions:

- Why is Barrie not on the PP?
- Petan can't make the 4th line on a regular basis, but is on the second PP unit.
- Always playing the backup on back to back nights.
- Gauthier being on PK.
...the list goes on.

The players need a fresh start under new coaching staff, while there is still time to secure a playoff position. We have some of the best players in the league, and at this rate we may not qualify for the playoffs.

Online Bender

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #186 on: November 13, 2019, 10:12:06 PM »
Although the score didn't reflect this, we dominated the first and second period. We have the skill to be a top team, but we consistently perform poorly when it comes to special teams (PP & PK). The system isn't working, and that system is designed by the coaching staff. The players are just as frustrated as we are.

There are many teams performing better with less talent. This isn't a team that's "missing" anything in terms of player resources. The issue is poor asset (player) allocation, and that falls squarely on the coaches.

Dubas has made some great acquisitions in the off season, with limited cap space, but it doesn't seem that Babcock is interested in using those assets where they should be used. There is a clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock. Several people already mentioned a few of these poor decisions:

- Why is Barrie not on the PP?
- Petan can't make the 4th line on a regular basis, but is on the second PP unit.
- Always playing the backup on back to back nights.
- Gauthier being on PK.
...the list goes on.

The players need a fresh start under new coaching staff, while there is still time to secure a playoff position. We have some of the best players in the league, and at this rate we may not qualify for the playoffs.
I mean just the special teams is inexcusable. You stop the Isles at 1 goal on the PK and you actually score a freaking goal for once on the PP and you win the game.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #187 on: November 13, 2019, 10:27:45 PM »
(5) some size and a mean streak both at forward and defense.


6)  Consistency.  They could take a page from the Raptors, who take a never quit approach. 

Not saying the team lags but a little continuity of consistency (regardless of injuries) would go a long way to building up both confidence & positivity.

Offline Sunbro

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #188 on: November 13, 2019, 10:34:55 PM »
They got back to back games coming up Friday (@ Boston) and Saturday (@ home vs Pittsburgh), and then have a few days off before they play again on Tuesday. I'm going to make the prediction; if they don't perform well in those two games, Babs will get fired Sunday morning, giving the leafs a few days to figure out coaching before the next leg.

Online Guilt Trip

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #189 on: November 13, 2019, 10:41:31 PM »
(5) some size and a mean streak both at forward and defense.
That's why I never had a problem with Polak. I didn't like the minutes Babs was giving him because I thought it was too many at times but he was plenty mean.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #190 on: November 13, 2019, 10:46:43 PM »
Although the score didn't reflect this, we dominated the first and second period. We have the skill to be a top team, but we consistently perform poorly when it comes to special teams (PP & PK). The system isn't working, and that system is designed by the coaching staff. The players are just as frustrated as we are.

There are many teams performing better with less talent. This isn't a team that's "missing" anything in terms of player resources. The issue is poor asset (player) allocation, and that falls squarely on the coaches.

Dubas has made some great acquisitions in the off season, with limited cap space, but it doesn't seem that Babcock is interested in using those assets where they should be used. There is a clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock. Several people already mentioned a few of these poor decisions:

- Why is Barrie not on the PP?
- Petan can't make the 4th line on a regular basis, but is on the second PP unit.
- Always playing the backup on back to back nights.
- Gauthier being on PK.
...the list goes on.

The players need a fresh start under new coaching staff, while there is still time to secure a playoff position. We have some of the best players in the league, and at this rate we may not qualify for the playoffs.

Welcome aboard Sunbro!

Online herman

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #191 on: November 13, 2019, 11:04:59 PM »
Oh I was laughing that Tavares scored there to make things interesting

What's your assessment of Dubas and his whole game plan at this stage?

Good summer considering a ridiculous situation that was not of his direct doing. Not perfect, but who was actually going to be able to sign Marner for 9M or less?

Dubas is process driven and believes in iterative progress. I think many frustrations expressed here are not wrong but a bit too focused on the now. This is not the finished product and I see a lot of great pieces and the right process in play.

Whatís not working right now, to my eye, is that the players are adjusting. Is it a surprise that we are struggling exactly where coaching is the newest? Success is a terrible teacher and the Leafs have overperformed at times their true level. At the same time weíve definitely seen glimpses of what they can accomplish when it all starts to click.

We are trying stuff this year. Inevitably stuff wonít work until it is either abandoned or it starts to click. Itís a team sport; players of different levels take time to work thing out. Having talent in copious amounts is a blessing but also something that needs to be curated. When all your top guys, save for one, was a top player on their previous team who works very hard on his game, but generally hasnít had to work that hard on the parts of the game without the puck, then of course things will be porous. Marleau, Tavares, is the template.
#BeBlessed

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #192 on: November 13, 2019, 11:11:23 PM »
Although the score didn't reflect this, we dominated the first and second period. We have the skill to be a top team, but we consistently perform poorly when it comes to special teams (PP & PK). The system isn't working, and that system is designed by the coaching staff. The players are just as frustrated as we are.

There are many teams performing better with less talent. This isn't a team that's "missing" anything in terms of player resources. The issue is poor asset (player) allocation, and that falls squarely on the coaches.

Dubas has made some great acquisitions in the off season, with limited cap space, but it doesn't seem that Babcock is interested in using those assets where they should be used. There is a clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock. Several people already mentioned a few of these poor decisions:

- Why is Barrie not on the PP?
- Petan can't make the 4th line on a regular basis, but is on the second PP unit.
- Always playing the backup on back to back nights.
- Gauthier being on PK.
...the list goes on.

The players need a fresh start under new coaching staff, while there is still time to secure a playoff position. We have some of the best players in the league, and at this rate we may not qualify for the playoffs.

Welcome to the site.

However, I can't agree with the bolded parts.  Chris's list above is a pretty good summary of what they are missing.  Even if you set aside the disappearance of Lines 3 & 4 and the disastrous choice of backup G, I don't see how it's possible to look at this defense and say, nope, everything's good, they just need to be utilized better.

The fact is, and has been since I don't know when, we don't have enough defensemen who can actually play competent defense.  Ceci was the wrong acquisition (yep, would rather have kept Zaitsev, who as you may remember actually acquitted himself pretty well against Boston in the playoffs), Barrie was the wrong acquisition even if he were playing close to his Colorado self.  Spezza was the wrong acquisition.

I do agree that before giving up on Barrie, who has simply been awful, they may as well try him on PP1. 

I'm also here to say again (blah blah blah) that it was a mistake sending Sandin down.  I seriously think they need to get rid of Ceci by whatever means possible and bring him back up.  Put him on the PK and let him learn.  Can't be worse than relying on Rielly (who can't kill penalties sheesh) and Ceci.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #193 on: November 13, 2019, 11:17:31 PM »
Oh I was laughing that Tavares scored there to make things interesting

What's your assessment of Dubas and his whole game plan at this stage?

Good summer considering a ridiculous situation that was not of his direct doing. Not perfect, but who was actually going to be able to sign Marner for 9M or less?

Dubas is process driven and believes in iterative progress. I think many frustrations expressed here are not wrong but a bit too focused on the now. This is not the finished product and I see a lot of great pieces and the right process in play.

Whatís not working right now, to my eye, is that the players are adjusting. Is it a surprise that we are struggling exactly where coaching is the newest? Success is a terrible teacher and the Leafs have overperformed at times their true level. At the same time weíve definitely seen glimpses of what they can accomplish when it all starts to click.

We are trying stuff this year. Inevitably stuff wonít work until it is either abandoned or it starts to click. Itís a team sport; players of different levels take time to work thing out. Having talent in copious amounts is a blessing but also something that needs to be curated. When all your top guys, save for one, was a top player on their previous team who works very hard on his game, but generally hasnít had to work that hard on the parts of the game without the puck, then of course things will be porous. Marleau, Tavares, is the template.

Please critique my critique of Dubas's overall lineup plan: no physicality anywhere, even in the bottom 6.  My basic rationale is this: the high flyers on the top 2 lines are getting no space to do their stuff, even under the controlled Babcock style they are trying to play, because the other team's defenders, especially the d-men, know they will pay no price whatsoever during a game.  If they were getting hit more, they'd give up the puck more, there'd be more chaos, they'd have to have their heads on a swivel, etc. ó all of which sews havoc and disrupts a team's defensive plans.  (Look at what it does to us.)  More havoc on their side, more room on our side, and then the top 2 lines could start killing the other team.

Am I wrong?

Offline Sunbro

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Re: Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590
« Reply #194 on: November 13, 2019, 11:28:54 PM »
Although the score didn't reflect this, we dominated the first and second period. We have the skill to be a top team, but we consistently perform poorly when it comes to special teams (PP & PK). The system isn't working, and that system is designed by the coaching staff. The players are just as frustrated as we are.

There are many teams performing better with less talent. This isn't a team that's "missing" anything in terms of player resources. The issue is poor asset (player) allocation, and that falls squarely on the coaches.

Dubas has made some great acquisitions in the off season, with limited cap space, but it doesn't seem that Babcock is interested in using those assets where they should be used. There is a clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock. Several people already mentioned a few of these poor decisions:

- Why is Barrie not on the PP?
- Petan can't make the 4th line on a regular basis, but is on the second PP unit.
- Always playing the backup on back to back nights.
- Gauthier being on PK.
...the list goes on.

The players need a fresh start under new coaching staff, while there is still time to secure a playoff position. We have some of the best players in the league, and at this rate we may not qualify for the playoffs.

Welcome to the site.

However, I can't agree with the bolded parts.  Chris's list above is a pretty good summary of what they are missing.  Even if you set aside the disappearance of Lines 3 & 4 and the disastrous choice of backup G, I don't see how it's possible to look at this defense and say, nope, everything's good, they just need to be utilized better.

The fact is, and has been since I don't know when, we don't have enough defensemen who can actually play competent defense.  Ceci was the wrong acquisition (yep, would rather have kept Zaitsev, who as you may remember actually acquitted himself pretty well against Boston in the playoffs), Barrie was the wrong acquisition even if he were playing close to his Colorado self.  Spezza was the wrong acquisition.

I do agree that before giving up on Barrie, who has simply been awful, they may as well try him on PP1. 

I'm also here to say again (blah blah blah) that it was a mistake sending Sandin down.  I seriously think they need to get rid of Ceci by whatever means possible and bring him back up.  Put him on the PK and let him learn.  Can't be worse than relying on Rielly (who can't kill penalties sheesh) and Ceci.

First it was Gardiner, then it was Zaitsev, and now it's Ceci and Barrie. Is the real issue Ceci and Barrie lack of ability, or the system they are being forced to play? The challenge is Babcock seems really stuck in his ways, and despite persistent issues, he doesn't adapt. The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

In lieu of Ceci, do you propose we should have kept Zaitsev? If not, then whom was available that we could have traded for?

Who would you have taken over Barrie?

We are playing way below the level of talent we have on this team, it's time to change up the system. Are you confident Babcock can do that?

With 8 min left in the third, and being down two goals, why did the 4th line get so much ice time?