Author Topic: Babcock will be back next season  (Read 2038 times)

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Offline Strangelove

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2019, 09:08:09 PM »
Those points actually serve as an indictment of Babcock's inflexibility rather than the other way around.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one... Babcock putting Martin in the pressbox and drastically cutting Komarov's minutes in the 2nd half of last season is actually proof that he's inflexible with the line-up? Can you show your math on that?

I think the argument isn't the straw man (that Babcock is inflexible) but that he's slow to make changes and adapt -- that he's stubborn. This isn't a controversial view.

Or he values a robust sample size, respects experience, and is willing to ride the veteran longer for the benefit of developing the replacement to succeed?

Maybe?

But on the first, which is the most objectionable and where he is the most stubborn (to the point that we were likely saved from a Rielly-Hainsey shutdown pair this postseason by two major injuries).... the folks who care most about sample size have, generally, been the earliest to get on Babcock about his worst usage habits. For example, they thought a sample size of the previous season showed Marleau in decline, and it continued throughout this season. Awfully big sample, that. And yet, no one was in a position to succeed on the third-line wing? I dunno.

This is it.

To me, it's hard to give Babcock credit for adapting his strategy/process when it takes him months to make changes that should have been obvious to anyone with a half-decent understanding of the underlying stats (particularly possession metrics).

Sometimes he refuses to make changes at all, regardless of performance, until the last game of the season. Frankly it's pretty absurd that it took him until then to scratch Komarov (last year) and play Matthews on the right side of the powerplay (this year).

None of this is to say that Babcock is the reason, or the only reason, that the Leafs underperformed during the regular season and were eliminated in the first round. But it seems clear to me that Babcock's inability to effectively adapt his systems was a significant contributing factor.

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2019, 09:08:09 PM »

Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2019, 10:53:27 PM »
Do we really think the team's early exit was the fault of Babcock's inflexibility? Do we not think it had more to do with Kadri getting suspended, again? Nylander being a shell of himself. Gardiner playing injured? Hyman playing injured and needing surgery? This YOUNG team went to game 7 with the Bruins, who are now going into the Conference final and there's also a good chance they go to the Cup finals too.

As Herman points out above, Babcock definitely made some errors, but he is not the sole reason the team lost that series.

For years Leaf fans have been preaching "patience, patience, patience" yet when the team loses those same Leaf fans scream "Why not us! This was our year! Fire the coach!"


No, Babcock is not the sole reason for the team’s exit but...

...considering the fact that Hyman was injured that left him a shade of what he could normally do, and that Gardiner felt practically ‘immobile’, knowing that some of your players are less than capable, in an important series-eliminating Game 7, was there no other choice to choose from?  Did Babcock really believe the Leafs could win with injured personnel?

Kadri’s suspension definitely hurt the team here, but again, could there not have been changes made to better adapt to the situation?

Flexiblility means having the merits to try something a little different, a tweak here, a tweak there, and so on. 

Again, no one, nor I, was advocating for Babcock’s firing.  But I still believe the way the Leafs lost left the fanbase very bitter. And rightly so.

Young team or not, and they’ve already have had a taste of playoff pressure before, expectations will remain high next post-season for both the Leafs and Babcock.  Keep that in mind.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 10:55:24 PM by hockeyfan1 »

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2019, 12:17:05 PM »

If this is true it ends the Keefe to Buffalo talk. Only other vacancy is Edmonton and Todd Nelson seems to be the front-runner there.

Online herman

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2019, 12:33:03 PM »
I was toying with the idea of getting Ralph Krueger in as an assistant. Rikard Gronborg would've been an interesting option too, if he'd be okay assisting.

A coach very familiar with the European league style of play would be very beneficial for our team's core.

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2019, 12:38:44 PM »
Do we really think the team's early exit was the fault of Babcock's inflexibility? Do we not think it had more to do with Kadri getting suspended, again? Nylander being a shell of himself. Gardiner playing injured? Hyman playing injured and needing surgery? This YOUNG team went to game 7 with the Bruins, who are now going into the Conference final and there's also a good chance they go to the Cup finals too.

As Herman points out above, Babcock definitely made some errors, but he is not the sole reason the team lost that series.

For years Leaf fans have been preaching "patience, patience, patience" yet when the team loses those same Leaf fans scream "Why not us! This was our year! Fire the coach!"


No, Babcock is not the sole reason for the team’s exit but...

...considering the fact that Hyman was injured that left him a shade of what he could normally do, and that Gardiner felt practically ‘immobile’, knowing that some of your players are less than capable, in an important series-eliminating Game 7, was there no other choice to choose from?  Did Babcock really believe the Leafs could win with injured personnel?

Kadri’s suspension definitely hurt the team here, but again, could there not have been changes made to better adapt to the situation?

The team was up 3-2 on a team that ranked better than them in the regular season. I'd say he adjusted fine and the team played well.

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Flexiblility means having the merits to try something a little different, a tweak here, a tweak there, and so on.

Thanks for that. He did adjust. His adjustments didn't work as well as Cassidy's but they worked enough to give them that 3-2 lead. They never trailed in the series because of those decisions.  Kadri's suspension and the others playing injured left the coach handcuffed. Babcock felt that leaving those players in gave the team a better chance of winning and for 3 of 5 games it did. Even after game 6 the pattern had been that the Leafs would bounce back. They did in game 3 after a terrible game 2. They did in game 5 after a lack lustre game 4. Why change after a terrible game 6?

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Again, no one, nor I, was advocating for Babcock’s firing.  But I still believe the way the Leafs lost left the fanbase very bitter. And rightly so.

Perhaps speak for yourself in that regard. Many are calling for his firing

Quote
Young team or not, and they’ve already have had a taste of playoff pressure before, expectations will remain high next post-season for both the Leafs and Babcock.  Keep that in mind.

And I do keep that in mind. It takes teams time to win. The Oilers of the 80's had to lose. The Penguins had to learn how to win. So did the Red Wings.

The Leafs played a top 3 team in the league. Did they have a shot? Sure they did. They took them to 7 games. Is there a reason to fire the coach? I don't really think so. Just as I don't think there's a reason to give up on any particular players. My point is..People need to breathe.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2019, 01:15:58 PM »

Yeah, I think OTH sums it up pretty well. There are things Babcock could have done to potentially achieve a different outcome but there isn't a single solitary thing anyone can point to and say would have definitely, or even highly probably, would have achieved a better outcome.

Losing to Boston in a 7 game series, after being up 3-2, was always going to make fans upset. Even if Babcock had made every right decision. It's important not to give too much credibility to people acting from that place of frustration and disappointment and working backwards, trying to find a scapegoat for a result we all knew was possible when the series began.
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Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2019, 07:04:39 AM »

Yeah, I think OTH sums it up pretty well. There are things Babcock could have done to potentially achieve a different outcome but there isn't a single solitary thing anyone can point to and say would have definitely, or even highly probably, would have achieved a better outcome.

Losing to Boston in a 7 game series, after being up 3-2, was always going to make fans upset. Even if Babcock had made every right decision. It's important not to give too much credibility to people acting from that place of frustration and disappointment and working backwards, trying to find a scapegoat for a result we all knew was possible when the series began.

Heck, if I'm remembering correctly, there were quite a few around here predicting Boston was going to destroy the Leafs.

Online herman

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2019, 09:38:48 PM »

Offline Highlander

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2019, 11:34:17 AM »
I think it's going to take getting to conference finals to keep Babcock in his job. Keefe is standing by to take over if he doesn't. I believe this is the plan.
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Offline cabber24

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2019, 12:33:35 PM »
I don't know what we're waiting on? I was hoping for a post-Marlies season firing of Bab's but Dubas has pronounced his love for Bab's.
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Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2019, 03:23:01 PM »
I think it's going to take getting to conference finals to keep Babcock in his job. Keefe is standing by to take over if he doesn't. I believe this is the plan.
I think Dubas brings, or at least discusses, Keefe to the big club as an assistant next season.

Offline bustaheims

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2019, 03:26:42 PM »
I don't know what we're waiting on?

I mean, I think the answer there is really simple - they don't think firing Babcock is the right move right now.
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Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2019, 03:36:38 PM »
I don't know what we're waiting on?

I mean, I think the answer there is really simple - they don't think firing Babcock is the right move right now.
I would agree. As much as I didn't like some things he did, the Leafs lost to the 3rd best team in the league and by all accounts outplayed them. Our downfall was special teams and had they been on par with the Bruins, we would have moved on. Doesn't excuse the way Babs handled the bench, so hopefully that has been addressed. I think we all know he gets one more kick at it next season.

Offline IJustLurkHere

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2019, 01:11:40 AM »
I think it's going to take getting to conference finals to keep Babcock in his job. Keefe is standing by to take over if he doesn't. I believe this is the plan.

Is there any evidence for this, or is it an extrapolation of the scapegoating that’s been going on since before the playoffs even started?

I think anointing an AHL coach the solution in Toronto would be great theatre in the media, not sure it would be great for the Leafs themselves.

Offline Bender

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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2019, 08:51:09 AM »
I think it's going to take getting to conference finals to keep Babcock in his job. Keefe is standing by to take over if he doesn't. I believe this is the plan.

Is there any evidence for this, or is it an extrapolation of the scapegoating that’s been going on since before the playoffs even started?

I think anointing an AHL coach the solution in Toronto would be great theatre in the media, not sure it would be great for the Leafs themselves.

Maybe, maybe not. He's followed Dubas everywhere. I don't know if Dubas envisioned Keefe being stuck in the A forever once he became GM.
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Re: Babcock will be back next season
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2019, 08:51:09 AM »