Author Topic: Mitch Marner: what now?  (Read 37298 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sickbeast

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1170 on: July 20, 2019, 01:08:38 PM »
Say what you want but before I leave on my vacation, I need to say this.  I think all the players today are greedy, I think Marner should take at most 6.5 for 7-8 yrs up front like the usual, then in his next deal he goes after the bigger money.  This way all the players can be signed to a fair deal leaving the team to build a contender for years to come. So say at the end of the day when the deal is signed Mitch has 40 mil to toss in the bank, what the heck is wrong with that. invest well and he is set for life plus he would still have a better payday in 7-8 years. and some very nice rings i am sure of.

But we all know shit does not work that way anymore.  so I will still hope for 8.5 and a cheap one year deal to grab Gardner, then I would say we will be "thee team" to beat for the cup.

Cheers and enjoy your summer everyone..
Have a great vacation. ;)

TMLfans.ca

Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1170 on: July 20, 2019, 01:08:38 PM »

Offline Nik Bethune

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 25954
  • All posts approved by CCP
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1171 on: July 20, 2019, 01:30:46 PM »
I think Marner should take at most 6.5 for 7-8 yrs up front like the usual, then in his next deal he goes after the bigger money...So say at the end of the day when the deal is signed Mitch has 40 mil to toss in the bank, what the heck is wrong with that.

This is not how money works.
Nothing can have value without being an object of utility
-Karl Marx

Offline disco

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2531
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1172 on: July 20, 2019, 03:06:05 PM »
Nice little interview with Naz at Mitchy's event.

Offline 4EVRLEAFAN

  • Prospect
  • *
  • Posts: 86
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1173 on: July 21, 2019, 10:23:49 AM »
I think Marner should take at most 6.5 for 7-8 yrs up front like the usual, then in his next deal he goes after the bigger money...So say at the end of the day when the deal is signed Mitch has 40 mil to toss in the bank, what the heck is wrong with that.

This is not how spoiled little brats work.
FIFY

Offline Andy

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1613
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1174 on: July 21, 2019, 11:28:45 AM »
I think Marner should take at most 6.5 for 7-8 yrs up front like the usual, then in his next deal he goes after the bigger money...So say at the end of the day when the deal is signed Mitch has 40 mil to toss in the bank, what the heck is wrong with that.

This is not how spoiled little brats work.
FIFY

Marner has the skill and track record to make significantly much more than $6.5 million playing in a league that generates revenue, on a yearly basis, in the billions, and he's a spoiled brat because he won't accept a salary that's far, far below what he's generally worth? Man, people confound me..

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 735
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1175 on: July 21, 2019, 11:33:39 AM »
Marner has the skill and track record to make significantly much more than $6.5 million playing in a league that generates revenue, on a yearly basis, in the billions, and he's a spoiled brat because he won't accept a salary that's far, far below what he's generally worth? Man, people confound me..
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him. And if some of the rumored amounts the Leafs have offered have been true and he won't accept them...then maybe spoiled brat is an accurate description.

Offline Andy

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1613
  • TMLfans Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1176 on: July 21, 2019, 11:36:59 AM »
Marner has the skill and track record to make significantly much more than $6.5 million playing in a league that generates revenue, on a yearly basis, in the billions, and he's a spoiled brat because he won't accept a salary that's far, far below what he's generally worth? Man, people confound me..
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him. And if some of the rumored amounts the Leafs have offered have been true and he won't accept them...then maybe spoiled brat is an accurate description.

I'm just referring to the idea that he should sign for 6.5 million over 7-8 years, otherwise he's a spoiled brat. I have no idea what "rumoured amounts" have been offered or turned down.

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 735
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1177 on: July 21, 2019, 11:43:08 AM »
Marner has the skill and track record to make significantly much more than $6.5 million playing in a league that generates revenue, on a yearly basis, in the billions, and he's a spoiled brat because he won't accept a salary that's far, far below what he's generally worth? Man, people confound me..
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him. And if some of the rumored amounts the Leafs have offered have been true and he won't accept them...then maybe spoiled brat is an accurate description.

I'm just referring to the idea that he should sign for 6.5 million over 7-8 years, otherwise he's a spoiled brat.
Got it! No argument on that point.

Offline Nik Bethune

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 25954
  • All posts approved by CCP
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1178 on: July 21, 2019, 12:15:09 PM »
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him.

The idea that something is worth what someone else is willing to pay is really only true in a free market. If the NHL is engaged in price-fixing when it comes to salaries via compensation and the cap, and they absolutely are, then what someone is willing to pay doesn't necessarily really reflect someone's worth.

I've posed this question before but if Connor McDavid was a UFA and there were no cap what would he be "worth" to the Leafs? Or Rangers? Maybe double what he's making now? More? The Leafs would be willing to pay lots of guys more than they're making now but the rules of the league say they can't. That does not produce a true reflection of player's worth.

That's why each RFA case, or really any case, is going to be different. Some players may accept the nature of what the cap does to artificially restrict their value, others may be less inclined to do so and want to get paid closer to what their actual value is. I don't think that makes anyone "spoiled".

Regardless, none of that has anything to do with the hard and fast reality that if Marner signed a 7 or 8 year deal at 6.5 AAV he would have nowhere close to 40 million dollars to "throw in the bank".
Nothing can have value without being an object of utility
-Karl Marx

Offline nutman

  • Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 1774
  • Marner... This kid has game.
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1179 on: July 21, 2019, 12:44:41 PM »
Thanks Nik... You just reminded why I don't post much on hear anymore. 

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 735
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1180 on: July 21, 2019, 01:03:55 PM »
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him.

The idea that something is worth what someone else is willing to pay is really only true in a free market. If the NHL is engaged in price-fixing when it comes to salaries via compensation and the cap, and they absolutely are, then what someone is willing to pay doesn't necessarily really reflect someone's worth.
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market. Let him go out into the "real" world and see if he can find someone to pay him $11 or $12 million for whatever skill set he might have other than hockey. Or maybe someone in Europe or Russia will pay him more than he can get in the NHL.

If the Leafs are offering him $10.5 mil for 8 years (or whatever their current/best offer is) and no one else is coming forward with a better offer, that's what he is worth.


Offline Nik Bethune

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 25954
  • All posts approved by CCP
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1181 on: July 21, 2019, 01:08:11 PM »
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market.

And the NHL has specifically set up a system that artificially limits compensation. What dictates a player's salary is not what a team would be willing to pay him but how they think he fits into a salary structure wherein compensation dollars are limited from team to team(Edit: And, of course, other teams aren't just offering Marner cash but are forced to offer the Leafs draft picks as well if he signs with them, further depressing his "value").

There's a reason why price fixing monopolies are generally seen to be antithetical to free market capitalism and it's precisely this reason.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 01:34:26 PM by Nik the Trik »
Nothing can have value without being an object of utility
-Karl Marx

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 735
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1182 on: July 21, 2019, 02:04:22 PM »
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market.

And the NHL has specifically set up a system that artificially limits compensation. What dictates a player's salary is not what a team would be willing to pay him but how they think he fits into a salary structure wherein compensation dollars are limited from team to team(Edit: And, of course, other teams aren't just offering Marner cash but are forced to offer the Leafs draft picks as well if he signs with them, further depressing his "value").

There's a reason why price fixing monopolies are generally seen to be antithetical to free market capitalism and it's precisely this reason.

Doesn't matter. It is what it is, and in the current system Marner is worth what the Leafs or another team offer.

The current system specifies that if another team signs Marner to an offer sheet, they must provide compensation. That is the system.

You don't like the system, you want to change the system - fine, but that's another discussion. It doesn't matter if Marner would be "worth" $15 million a year (or more) in a system with no salary cap and unrestricted free agency instead of restricted free agency + salary cap.

Either Marner will sign for what the Leafs offer, or they'll up their offer. In any case we will eventually know what he is worth in the marketplace where he resides. No other universe matters.

Offline Nik Bethune

  • Sittler Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 25954
  • All posts approved by CCP
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1183 on: July 21, 2019, 02:14:14 PM »
Doesn't matter. It is what it is, and in the current system Marner is worth what the Leafs or another team offer.

It absolutely matters insofar as it will inform what players think their actual value is and their willingness to accept offers that are far below it. Likewise, it matters in as much as it means that what a player is offered is in no way a legitimate reflection of their actual worth.

And, related to what I was saying a while back to princedpw, this is why the salary structure of the league isn't the be all and end all when it comes to contract negotiations. There are two numbers being grappled with here, a number spat out by a price fixing cabal and a number that reflects a more genuine sense of a player's value. To what extent a player is going to hew more to one or the other is entirely up to that player when seeking his compensation. Trying to get a handle on "the market" without taking that reality into account is almost certainly going to lead to bad attempts at guessing what players sign for.

So by all means say that Marner's compensation is going to be affected by the cap because that's just a fact but to say that what teams are able to offer him under the cap provides a realistic measurement of his worth(and therefore he's "spoiled" if he doesn't accept whatever number the Leafs decide that is) just doesn't add up.
Nothing can have value without being an object of utility
-Karl Marx

Offline Chris

  • Rookie
  • ***
  • Posts: 735
  • TMLfans Rocks!
    • View Profile
Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1184 on: July 21, 2019, 02:27:43 PM »
It absolutely matters insofar as it will inform what players think their actual value is and their willingness to accept offers that are far below it. Likewise, it matters in as much as it means that what a player is offered is in no way a legitimate reflection of their actual worth.

And, related to what I was saying a while back to princedpw, this is why the salary structure of the league isn't the be all and end all when it comes to contract negotiations. There are two numbers being grappled with here, a number spat out by a price fixing cabal and a number that reflects a more genuine sense of a player's value. To what extent a player is going to hew more to one or the other is entirely up to that player when seeking his compensation. Trying to get a handle on "the market" without taking that reality into account is almost certainly going to lead to bad attempts at guessing what players sign for.

So by all means say that Marner's compensation is going to be affected by the cap because that's just a fact but to say that what teams are able to offer him under the cap provides a realistic measurement of his worth(and therefore he's "spoiled" if he doesn't accept whatever number the Leafs decide that is) just doesn't add up.

It adds up unless your only intent is to argue and make things into something they're not.

Marner can think he's worth any amount but unless someone is willing to pay him that amount, he isn't worth it under the current system. It's really quite simple, no matter how you spin it.

TMLfans.ca

Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« Reply #1184 on: July 21, 2019, 02:27:43 PM »