Author Topic: Nylander signs 6-year contract  (Read 14476 times)

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Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #210 on: December 03, 2018, 05:45:55 PM »
I think it matters a great deal. A lot can happen in 6 years, and any "change that can be communicated later" is pretty cavalier way of saying that dubas can break his word without consequence to his reputation and the organization's by proxy.

I think if the Leafs are ever in a position where they're forced to trade Nylander then things have probably gone catastrophically wrong and it wouldn't be Dubas making that trade, it'd be his replacement.

And on top of this, every other player coming out of entry level will attempt to leverage the same commitment, since it's been on the table once. Either Dubas screwed up by offering it, or screwed up royally with Nylander announcing it.

I mean yeah he's going to give the same commitment to Matthews or Marner, but it's not like he's going to make that promise to Kapanen and Johnsson.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 05:47:41 PM by CarltonTheBear »

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #210 on: December 03, 2018, 05:45:55 PM »

Online Zee

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #211 on: December 03, 2018, 05:46:53 PM »

Lots and lots of GMs have said this and then went back on it. But I feel like Dubas is a lot more likely to stick to it than most.
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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #212 on: December 03, 2018, 05:49:39 PM »
I think it matters a great deal. A lot can happen in 6 years, and any "change that can be communicated later" is pretty cavalier way of saying that dubas can break his word without consequence to his reputation and the organization's by proxy.

But that's just it. A lot can happen in 6 years. Nylander may want out. Dubas may think the team should move on and Nylander is open to the idea. Both of those things seem more likely than everything going great but Dubas wanting to trade him anyway so the chances of Dubas wanting to trade Nylander and Nylander being really upset by the possibility seems pretty remote.

And on top of this, every other player coming out of entry level will attempt to leverage the same commitment, since it's been on the table once.

I don't think that's true at all. Forgetting Marner and Matthews, who it's probably true of anyway, you think Kapanen will say "You're not going to trade me, right?" and Dubas will...what? Feel morally obligated to make the same promise? Or if he doesn't than Kapanen will feel offended? Or think that the promise to Nylander represents some new organizational policy?

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Offline Frycer14

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #213 on: December 03, 2018, 05:56:43 PM »
And on top of this, every other player coming out of entry level will attempt to leverage the same commitment, since it's been on the table once. Either Dubas screwed up by offering it, or screwed up royally with Nylander announcing it.

I mean yeah he's going to give the same commitment to Matthews or Marner, but it's not like he's going to make that promise to Kapanen and Johnsson.

I don't know about that, at least with Kapanen, especially with his supposed friendship with Nylander. He might be very much expecting the same treatment. At the very least now, with Nylander publicly announcing it, it will be a point of negotiation that wasn't necessary to introduce. Fine, won't offer me a verbal no trade like Nylander? Then give me another $500K.  And what happens when Sandin comes out of entry level, or other high value assets? Even if it happens with just the big 3 (which I doubt) I can see many scenarios where it would be wise to keep flexibility.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #214 on: December 03, 2018, 06:02:06 PM »

So Kapanen is going to think that because he's friends with Nylander, Dubas is somehow obligated to prize him as highly as Nylander?

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Offline Frycer14

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #215 on: December 03, 2018, 06:08:24 PM »

So Kapanen is going to think that because he's friends with Nylander, Dubas is somehow obligated to prize him as highly as Nylander?

Absolutely he's not. But he's now negotiating with players who now have more to negotiate back with thanks to Nylander's proclamation.

As an aside, has a player in the NHL ever come out of an entry level deal announcing a verbal no trade clause as part of his offer before?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 06:10:00 PM by Frycer14 »

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #216 on: December 03, 2018, 06:12:27 PM »
Absolutely he's not. But he's now negotiating with players who now have more to negotiate back with.

Yeah, I still don't really see how that would work. Kapanen will ask "Do you promise not to trade me?" and Dubas will say no and Kapanen will...what? What negotiating leverage does this give Kapanen? Why is it especially true because Kapanen and Nylander are pals?

It's not like actual NMCs or NTCs being given to some high end free agents mean that every free agent thinks they're entitled to one or somehow has more weight to negotiate one with.
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Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #217 on: December 03, 2018, 06:22:02 PM »
As an aside, has a player in the NHL ever come out of an entry level deal announcing a verbal no trade clause as part of his offer before?

I would say that these sort of promises/guarantees are probably more common than you'd think for star RFAs who aren't eligible for NTCs yet. Maybe you can argue that Nylander shouldn't have said anything, but I'd assume he was answering a pretty direct question about whether he was worried he would be traded and it's not exactly like Dubas hasn't said he had no intention of trading Nylander like a dozen times since he became GM.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #218 on: December 03, 2018, 06:24:29 PM »
I would say that these sort of promises/guarantees are probably more common than you'd think for star RFAs who aren't eligible for NTCs yet. Maybe you can argue that Nylander shouldn't have said anything, but I'd assume he was answering a pretty direct question about whether he was worried he would be traded and it's not exactly like Dubas hasn't said he had no intention of trading Nylander like a dozen times since he became GM.

Yeah, I feel like ultimately this is a direct response to the idea that was floated around by people like Friedman that Dubas was going to be signing him just to trade him after the big payouts. If Nylander asked Dubas about that, Dubas was obligated to say something and anything other than a pretty firm commitment to keep Nylander around could have resulted in less enthusiasm for a long-term deal.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #219 on: December 03, 2018, 06:29:02 PM »

I am very happy that Nylander is staying in Toronto but I do sort of feel like Leafs fans would be wise to not lean too heavily on the idea that winning in Toronto is somehow better than winning somewhere else. I feel like that takes us uncomfortably close to being the sort of caricature some people say we are. It's the Cup, if you win it it's probably pretty terrific no matter where.

Maybe, but was the Cubs World Series win not more exciting than the Royals the year before or the Astros the year after?

The Leafs have been without for a long time, in spite of a massive loyal fan base. Shanny talked about how much it would mean to win in Toronto as well. There’s good reason why people say it.

Offline Highlander

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #220 on: December 03, 2018, 06:30:56 PM »

I am very happy that Nylander is staying in Toronto but I do sort of feel like Leafs fans would be wise to not lean too heavily on the idea that winning in Toronto is somehow better than winning somewhere else. I feel like that takes us uncomfortably close to being the sort of caricature some people say we are. It's the Cup, if you win it it's probably pretty terrific no matter where.

Maybe, but was the Cubs World Series win not more exciting than the Royals the year before or the Astros the year after?

The Leafs have been without for a long time, in spite of a massive loyal fan base. Shanny talked about how much it would mean to win in Toronto as well. There’s good reason why people say it.
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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #221 on: December 03, 2018, 06:32:25 PM »
Maybe, but was the Cubs World Series win not more exciting than the Royals the year before or the Astros the year after?

To who though? The players on the Royals and Astros(who represent a huge city that hadn't won a World Series in their entire 56 year history btw) didn't seem less happy than players on the Cubs. The fans at the Astros parade didn't seem any less enthusiastic.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #222 on: December 03, 2018, 06:40:59 PM »
To who though? The players on the Royals and Astros(who represent a huge city that hadn't won a World Series in their entire 56 year history btw) didn't seem less happy than players on the Cubs. The fans at the Astros parade didn't seem any less enthusiastic.

Wouldn’t you agree that the national (even international) appeal for a Cubs win was far greater? In that sense, the Cubs winning was a bigger deal. Someday (soon I hope) we may see the same for the Leafs.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #223 on: December 03, 2018, 06:45:29 PM »
Wouldn’t you agree that the national (even international) appeal for a Cubs win was far greater? In that sense, the Cubs winning was a bigger deal. Someday (soon I hope) we may see the same for the Leafs.

I think that Chicago being a bigger club with a larger and more established fanbase drove ratings, sure. But this was about whether or not players would necessarily care, not if it would drive casuals to turn on their TV.
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Offline Frank E

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #224 on: December 03, 2018, 06:56:17 PM »
Wouldn’t you agree that the national (even international) appeal for a Cubs win was far greater? In that sense, the Cubs winning was a bigger deal. Someday (soon I hope) we may see the same for the Leafs.

I think that Chicago being a bigger club with a larger and more established fanbase drove ratings, sure. But this was about whether or not players would necessarily care, not if it would drive casuals to turn on their TV.

I think the inference there was that if you won in Toronto, with the bigger fanbase and all that, that it would be a bigger deal because of the bigger more established, and Cup starved, fanbase.

So maybe you'd be a big deal to more people, and that would make it more enjoyable?

I don't know if it's a great argument, because I think if you were a Jet, and Winnipeg won a Cup, you'd be a big deal too, no matter what Kelsey's you went to for dinner in Manitoba.

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Re: Nylander signs 6-year contract
« Reply #224 on: December 03, 2018, 06:56:17 PM »