Author Topic: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion  (Read 48049 times)

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Offline skrackle

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #900 on: February 17, 2019, 10:15:24 PM »
I think the Leafs talent level could be equal to or beyond Tampa's, given time and great GM-ing over the next season or three. The Leafs aren't far off, but Tampa has several years of development ahead of where the Leafs are right now.

The Leafs might catch fire in the playoffs, you never know. It often comes down to match-ups, luck with injuries, bounces, etc. But really, I don't think it's their time yet. They don't have enough versatility and experience to beat any team at any type of game. The roster isn't quite there. It's a work in progress.




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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #900 on: February 17, 2019, 10:15:24 PM »

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #901 on: February 18, 2019, 09:34:45 AM »
(I posted this in the GDT today but thought I'd put it here too just because I'd love to hear how other folks feel.)

For all the sky-is-falling pushback, does anybody share with me just the teeniest sense of disappointment that, good as the Leafs are, it seemed at the start of the season like they should be closer to the kind of dominance TBL is showing?  Yes, I understand TBL is having a fantastic season.  But the fact is, there is them, and then there are about 6 teams right at the Leafs point level.  Heck, the lowly Islanders are ahead of us in the standings.  (Their fans must be having a hell of a lot of fun this morning at our expense.)  Anybody laughing at Lou now?

So yeah, I'll just come out and say it: I am a little disappointed.  It's not just that they crapped the bed last night; it happens.  It's that there are too many nights where they don't bring their "A" game consistently.  And given the forward talent, I don't think we should accept that.

The narrative going in to the season was that the Leafs would have 3 lines that would be almost impossible to contain.  That they would be dominant.  I never thought they would be quite as good as TBL.  But they don't give me the sense of being a dominant team.

I'm not naive, this is the best Leafs team in 50 years and I've never enjoyed watching them more than this year.  I'm just being honest, was hoping for a little bit more.

How well the Islanders are playing has nothing to do with Toronto. The Leafs can't control that team, nor should the leafs feel poorly about themselves because another team is playing well.

As for us not accepting that a group of 20-24 year olds is a little inconsistent, i don't think we have much control in the matter. I mean, I suppose we could stomp our feet loudly and type violently. Expecting them to be like the Tampa Bay Lightning that has been developing/growing for the past 5-6 years together as a unit is a little bit naive though.

I won't really comment on the "enjoying watching them play" comment. Considering your constant negativity surrounding the team, I'm not sure how you could be enjoying the team.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:44:11 AM by OldTimeHockey »

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #902 on: February 18, 2019, 09:41:38 AM »

Contrary to what was said in the GDT, for the entirety of my time here as a Leafs fan there has never been a Leafs team that wasn't criticized for their supposed lack of "effort" when they lost games. 

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Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #903 on: February 18, 2019, 09:46:16 AM »

Contrary to what was said in the GDT, for the entirety of my time here as a Leafs fan there has never been a Leafs team that wasn't criticized for their supposed lack of "effort" when they lost games.

Criticizing is one thing. I was critical after Saturday's game. But not because they're behind Boston in the standings, or the Islanders(still don't get that one). I was critical because they had a lacklustre game. Oh, then I had another beer and moved on.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #904 on: February 18, 2019, 10:12:30 AM »
(I posted this in the GDT today but thought I'd put it here too just because I'd love to hear how other folks feel.)

For all the sky-is-falling pushback, does anybody share with me just the teeniest sense of disappointment that, good as the Leafs are, it seemed at the start of the season like they should be closer to the kind of dominance TBL is showing?  Yes, I understand TBL is having a fantastic season.  But the fact is, there is them, and then there are about 6 teams right at the Leafs point level.  Heck, the lowly Islanders are ahead of us in the standings.  (Their fans must be having a hell of a lot of fun this morning at our expense.)  Anybody laughing at Lou now?

So yeah, I'll just come out and say it: I am a little disappointed.  It's not just that they crapped the bed last night; it happens.  It's that there are too many nights where they don't bring their "A" game consistently.  And given the forward talent, I don't think we should accept that.

The narrative going in to the season was that the Leafs would have 3 lines that would be almost impossible to contain.  That they would be dominant.  I never thought they would be quite as good as TBL.  But they don't give me the sense of being a dominant team.

I'm not naive, this is the best Leafs team in 50 years and I've never enjoyed watching them more than this year.  I'm just being honest, was hoping for a little bit more.

How well the Islanders are playing has nothing to do with Toronto. The Leafs can't control that team, nor should the leafs feel poorly about themselves because another team is playing well.

As for us not accepting that a group of 20-24 year olds is a little inconsistent, i don't think we have much control in the matter. I mean, I suppose we could stomp our feet loudly and type violently. Expecting them to be like the Tampa Bay Lightning that has been developing/growing for the past 5-6 years together as a unit is a little bit naive though.

I won't really comment on the "enjoying watching them play" comment. Considering your constant negativity surrounding the team, I'm not sure how you could be enjoying the team.

You'll have to take my word for it, I guess.  I think if you look at my comments over the years in the GDTs alone, you'll find hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of positive comments.  Mixed together with critiques.  That's called being honest.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #905 on: February 18, 2019, 10:17:54 AM »
And BTW OTH, if you want to rip someone, at least do it honestly.

What I actually said:

"I never thought they would be quite as good as TBL."

You:

"Expecting them to be like the Tampa Bay Lightning that has been developing/growing for the past 5-6 years together as a unit is a little bit naive though."

This kind of strawman "argument" happens all the time around here -- and it always ends with an insult.  It's bogus and really, really tiresome.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #906 on: February 18, 2019, 10:27:22 AM »
And BTW OTH, if you want to rip someone, at least do it honestly.

What I actually said:

"I never thought they would be quite as good as TBL."

You:

"Expecting them to be like the Tampa Bay Lightning that has been developing/growing for the past 5-6 years together as a unit is a little bit naive though."

You sort of open yourself up to that when you aren't actually specific with your criticisms. Right now the Leafs are in the mix for having the second best record in the league. The only team in the entire league to have separated themselves from that pack is Tampa Bay.

So if you're not using Tampa as the standard, what is?  Where should the Leafs be to have met your expectations? It's very charitable to say that you didn't expect them to be on a record setting pace like the Lightning but what's left? Just your regular old, run of the mill 115 point or so pace?
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Offline Arn

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #907 on: February 18, 2019, 10:31:11 AM »
Sadly I haven't been able to watch as much "live" coverage this year as I endured during the dark recent past, and for some reason when I have tuned in I think I have an overall losing record.

But I wouldn't say disappointed is the word I'd use. I think they're more or less on track to at least match if not surpass last season's points total. I know that you would expect an improvement but if you allow for certain things - Nylander's hold out, Matthews and Andersen's injuries etc - to actually be on course to match the points total is a positive to an extent.

We've seen some upticks as well - the performance of Marner, the class of Tavares. But I think the issues we have all known to be there still need a bit more work, particularly around the D.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #908 on: February 18, 2019, 10:38:12 AM »
Criticizing is one thing. I was critical after Saturday's game. But not because they're behind Boston in the standings, or the Islanders(still don't get that one). I was critical because they had a lacklustre game. Oh, then I had another beer and moved on.

I understand being disappointed or even upset when the team loses and even the occasional "Player X had a bad game tonight" or "They should have done X to try and win" but I think my thing is that very frequently games that are decided by random chance as much always get criticized as being failures of effort. I didn't watch the Coyotes game but as someone who's been posting here a while I can say that the "They lost because they didn't try hard" crowd doesn't have much in the way of good faith built up in them as I see it.
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Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #909 on: February 18, 2019, 10:51:29 AM »
And BTW OTH, if you want to rip someone, at least do it honestly.

What I actually said:

"I never thought they would be quite as good as TBL."

You:

"Expecting them to be like the Tampa Bay Lightning that has been developing/growing for the past 5-6 years together as a unit is a little bit naive though."

This kind of strawman "argument" happens all the time around here -- and it always ends with an insult.  It's bogus and really, really tiresome.

My apologies. Let me fix that for you.

"Expecting them to be closer to Tampa Bay's dominance, who are having one of the best seasons in the past 20 seasons, is a little naive."

It doesn't change anything though. Your expectations are unrealistic. They are in the mix for the 2nd best record in the league. Wrap your head around that one. Tampa Bay is an anomaly, not the standard.

We'd all like Toronto to be playing like the Lightning. Unfortunately that's not likely regardless of how good you think your team might be. The only records that are similar to the Lightning record are the Blackhawks in '12/'13, the Caps in '09/10, and '05/06 Red Wings. That's it since the mid 90's.

How do we expect a team of 20-24 year olds to even be approaching those standards? Give them time man.

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #910 on: February 18, 2019, 10:55:34 AM »
Criticizing is one thing. I was critical after Saturday's game. But not because they're behind Boston in the standings, or the Islanders(still don't get that one). I was critical because they had a lacklustre game. Oh, then I had another beer and moved on.

I understand being disappointed or even upset when the team loses and even the occasional "Player X had a bad game tonight" or "They should have done X to try and win" but I think my thing is that very frequently games that are decided by random chance as much always get criticized as being failures of effort. I didn't watch the Coyotes game but as someone who's been posting here a while I can say that the "They lost because they didn't try hard" crowd doesn't have much in the way of good faith built up in them as I see it.

There's several reasons a team could lose. Unfortunately, lack of effort is one of them. It is used as a default far too often. That much I will agree. That doesn't remove from a possible reason that a team may lose.

"A hard working team will defeat a talented team on most nights if the talented team doesn't work hard."

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #911 on: February 18, 2019, 10:56:39 AM »
And BTW OTH, if you want to rip someone, at least do it honestly.

What I actually said:

"I never thought they would be quite as good as TBL."

You:

"Expecting them to be like the Tampa Bay Lightning that has been developing/growing for the past 5-6 years together as a unit is a little bit naive though."

This kind of strawman "argument" happens all the time around here -- and it always ends with an insult.  It's bogus and really, really tiresome.

My apologies. Let me fix that for you.

"Expecting them to be closer to Tampa Bay's dominance, who are having one of the best seasons in the past 20 seasons, is a little naive."

It doesn't change anything though. Your expectations are unrealistic. They are in the mix for the 2nd best record in the league. Wrap your head around that one. Tampa Bay is an anomaly, not the standard.

We'd all like Toronto to be playing like the Lightning. Unfortunately that's not likely regardless of how good you think your team might be. The only records that are similar to the Lightning record are the Blackhawks in '12/'13, the Caps in '09/10, and '05/06 Red Wings. That's it since the mid 90's.

How do we expect a team of 20-24 year olds to even be approaching those standards? Give them time man.

I don't think I'm being naive or unrealistic in saying that I expected a bit more out of the team, but I appreciate your making a serious response disagreeing with me.  Debate is part of what this board is all about.


Offline lamajama

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #912 on: February 18, 2019, 02:58:08 PM »
What I find somewhat disappointing is that this year's Leaf team is likely the most talented we will have for a while as Gardiner is gone (and I
have as many issues with him as most (in the brain cramp department at the most inopportune time) and we will have to have min
salary 4th liners for sure. Brown is gone (although his game has fallen off the cliff this year) and having him on the 4th line is a pretty
good luxury. Likely one of Andreas or Kasperi is gone and Hainsey (useful in the right slotting) is probably gone as well. Our pipeline is basically
empty for next year with one exception. If we were one more year in developing this team I think the Leafs would have been much closer..

If only Marleau's contract was over that would really help next year.
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Offline princedpw

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #913 on: February 18, 2019, 03:37:02 PM »
What I find somewhat disappointing is that this year's Leaf team is likely the most talented we will have for a while as Gardiner is gone (and I
have as many issues with him as most (in the brain cramp department at the most inopportune time) and we will have to have min
salary 4th liners for sure. Brown is gone (although his game has fallen off the cliff this year) and having him on the 4th line is a pretty
good luxury. Likely one of Andreas or Kasperi is gone and Hainsey (useful in the right slotting) is probably gone as well. Our pipeline is basically
empty for next year with one exception. If we were one more year in developing this team I think the Leafs would have been much closer..

If only Marleau's contract was over that would really help next year.

The loss of Gardiner will hurt but we won't necessarily lose Johnsson or Kappy (we might, but I don't think it is a given).  On the other hand, we can obviously hope for more from Nylander next year.  We get a full season of Muzzin (is Muzzin better, worse or equal to Gardiner?).  We can hope that Matthews, Marner, Johnsson, Kappy improve a bit more.  We have Sandin and Liljegren coming up.  Who knows, maybe we'll find a way to ditch Zaitsev and find out that Holl is actually the better player?  Maybe we find some other Russian D import that boosts our bottom pair?

Of course, on the other side, we might be a little less lucky with injuries.

I really don't think the 4th line is a difference-making component of the team so I don't really care if we lose Brown ...

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #914 on: February 18, 2019, 03:40:52 PM »
The loss of Gardiner will hurt but we won't necessarily lose Johnsson or Kappy (we might, but I don't think it is a given).  On the other hand, we can obviously hope for more from Nylander next year.  We get a full season of Muzzin (is Muzzin better, worse or equal to Gardiner?).  We can hope that Matthews, Marner, Johnsson, Kappy improve a bit more.  We have Sandin and Liljegren coming up.  Who knows, maybe we'll find a way to ditch Zaitsev and find out that Holl is actually the better player?  Maybe we find some other Russian D import that boosts our bottom pair?

Of course, on the other side, we might be a little less lucky with injuries.

I really don't think the 4th line is a difference-making component of the team so I don't really care if we lose Brown ...

Not to mention that if the Leafs do have to chose between Johnsson and Kapanen, whoever they "lose" will actually be someone they trade. Add in actually being pretty strong on the left side prospect wise with Moore and Timoshov and having Bracco on the right and they actually will have options there regardless of what they can get back in a deal.

And beyond that, it would really just be a one year dip as after next year between the Cap increase and Marleau being off the books the Leafs could have north of 10 million to spend.
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Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
« Reply #914 on: February 18, 2019, 03:40:52 PM »