Author Topic: Jays Roster Discussion  (Read 53771 times)

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Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #705 on: September 02, 2018, 06:42:06 AM »
From the fans, too...


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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #705 on: September 02, 2018, 06:42:06 AM »

Offline Highlander

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #706 on: September 02, 2018, 12:01:04 PM »
I have to say it as well, thanks Josh, wish it had worked out better in the end. Also goodbye to Curtis G, nice guy, decent player.
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Offline L K

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #707 on: September 03, 2018, 02:06:19 AM »
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

Theres more to it than the fact that the player hasnt touched the big-leagues its the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster, Atkins said

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-believe-ptbnl-valuable-retaining-donaldson/

I dont like this management team, I really dont.

Come on.  They arent at fault for anything.  Who would have known that a guy showing concerning wear and tear injuries and who after being traded you accuse of ignoring your medical staff all offseason wouldnt have been a better trade candidate in the offseason.  I know management doesnt have to be honest with the fans but JP got run out of Toronto for lying about BJ Ryan.  Results matter too but I enjoy our corporate speak management while Rogers jacks ticket prices on a losing product 

Offline Bender

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #708 on: September 03, 2018, 09:43:00 AM »
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

Theres more to it than the fact that the player hasnt touched the big-leagues its the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster, Atkins said

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-believe-ptbnl-valuable-retaining-donaldson/

I dont like this management team, I really dont.

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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #709 on: September 03, 2018, 11:41:59 AM »
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...

I think the problem there is that the Jays had such a bad season last year there aren't a lot of guys they could have traded who they would have been seen as getting good value on. I think there's a lot of unfair hindsight going on re: Donaldson inasmuch as if they'd dealt him in the off-season people probably would have accused them of trading him at a low in his value as well. Keeping him around in the hopes that he'd have a big year in his walk year was a gamble that didn't play out, sure, but odds are the return wouldn't have been that good regardless.

Beyond that, I don't really think there's anyone they could have traded that would have yielded much more than what they ended up getting anyway.
Nothing can have value without being an object of utility
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Offline Andy

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #710 on: September 03, 2018, 03:44:53 PM »
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

Theres more to it than the fact that the player hasnt touched the big-leagues its the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster, Atkins said



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I think people are seriously undervaluing a) the difficulty of the situation this new management was immediately put in, and b) how good a job they have done, particularly with the farm system.


2016 had a declining, overpaid roster that no longer had Price. They bring in Happ (one of the best FA signings in a long time) who has a near Cy-Young caliber season, re-sign Estrada, move Sanchez to the rotation and then (ultimately) bolster the bullpen with Biagini, Benoit and Grili. Then they trade Hutchinson for Liriano (and 2 prospects), who immediately solidifies the 5th starting role. That team wasn't a lock to make the postseason, Shapiro/Atkins deserve their fair of credit for the team making the playoffs that year and for also acquiring prospects insetead of sending any out.

In 2017 Sanchez misses almost the entire season, Estrada explodes, Liriano explodes, JD battles injuries, Bautista turns to absolute garbage, Morales underperforms, Tulo Tulos, Travis Travis', and Pearce, on a nice cheap low risk deal doesnt pan out (mostly injuries). They turn Liriano and Smith into 4 pretty darn good pieces/prospects, and bank on a healthier/more productive year from their declining assets the following year.

In 2018 JD and Osuna are both gone for almost the entire season. Sanchez and Stroman are both either injured or pitching terribly, Estrada is, effectively, done, Tulo Tulos even further, Martin can't hit or throw anyone out and with Boston/NY being ridiculous, there goes the season. Meanwhile the trading of Granderson, Loup, Happ, JD, Pearce, Axford and Oh brings in 10 prospects. Grichuck and Diaz, acquired for songs, have above average-very good seasons and are cheap, controllable young assets. And the farm system is now ranked top 3-4 overall.

Considering they inherited a team with a terrible farm system, a boatload of money owed to aging, injury-prone vets and a rabid fanbase obsessed with the team's brief playoff run and its comically overrated former GM, I'm not sure what they could have done that would have satisfied anyone.


Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #711 on: September 03, 2018, 05:59:21 PM »
I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=merryw000jul

Apparently this is the player the jays are getting.

Theres more to it than the fact that the player hasnt touched the big-leagues its the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster, Atkins said



Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

I think people are seriously undervaluing a) the difficulty of the situation this new management was immediately put in, and b) how good a job they have done, particularly with the farm system.


2016 had a declining, overpaid roster that no longer had Price. They bring in Happ (one of the best FA signings in a long time) who has a near Cy-Young caliber season, re-sign Estrada, move Sanchez to the rotation and then (ultimately) bolster the bullpen with Biagini, Benoit and Grili. Then they trade Hutchinson for Liriano (and 2 prospects), who immediately solidifies the 5th starting role. That team wasn't a lock to make the postseason, Shapiro/Atkins deserve their fair of credit for the team making the playoffs that year and for also acquiring prospects insetead of sending any out.

In 2017 Sanchez misses almost the entire season, Estrada explodes, Liriano explodes, JD battles injuries, Bautista turns to absolute garbage, Morales underperforms, Tulo Tulos, Travis Travis', and Pearce, on a nice cheap low risk deal doesnt pan out (mostly injuries). They turn Liriano and Smith into 4 pretty darn good pieces/prospects, and bank on a healthier/more productive year from their declining assets the following year.

In 2018 JD and Osuna are both gone for almost the entire season. Sanchez and Stroman are both either injured or pitching terribly, Estrada is, effectively, done, Tulo Tulos even further, Martin can't hit or throw anyone out and with Boston/NY being ridiculous, there goes the season. Meanwhile the trading of Granderson, Loup, Happ, JD, Pearce, Axford and Oh brings in 10 prospects. Grichuck and Diaz, acquired for songs, have above average-very good seasons and are cheap, controllable young assets. And the farm system is now ranked top 3-4 overall.

Considering they inherited a team with a terrible farm system, a boatload of money owed to aging, injury-prone vets and a rabid fanbase obsessed with the team's brief playoff run and its comically overrated former GM, I'm not sure what they could have done that would have satisfied anyone.


Excellent summary, in a nutshell. 

About JD, according to The Athletic, the Jays attempted to gauge interest in a possible move for him, but were dissatisfied at the insufficiency of the return value.  In other words, if Donaldson had been traded in 2017 (last season) with his diminished numbers, management felt that it wouldn't have garnered high trade value.

By judging the situation to what it eventually became, perhaps many Jays fans wonder if the value would still have been higher than what they got for him now (a player to be named later), virtually nothing, statistically speaking.

Looking back, the time to trade Donaldson and the best window of opportunity was last season, not this year.  Of course, who would have imagined the Jays losing two of their best -- Osuna and Donaldson -- no one forsaw this coming, not Gibbons, Shapiro nor Atkins.  And may we add, not even the fans.

Besides, Donaldson had reiterated to management at the end of last season (2017)  that he did not wish to be traded.  Management did mention to him that there were teams expressing an interest in his services.  JD wanted to remain a lifelong Blue Jay, get healthy, and be ready, able, and willing for the upcoming season (2018).  Management also offered him an extension (contract talks) for the soon-to-be FA.

We can only surmise what a healthy Donaldson would have continued to have brought to the Jays.  All of that is over now and the important thing is for the team to continue forward with it's young prospects.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 06:24:53 PM by hockeyfan1 »

Offline Bender

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #712 on: September 03, 2018, 07:59:54 PM »
Interesting. I didn't follow the Jays that closely so I didn't realize Donaldson had no value due to injury even back then.

So what do we do with Tulo? He's basically constantly injured?

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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #713 on: September 03, 2018, 08:21:15 PM »
Interesting. I didn't follow the Jays that closely so I didn't realize Donaldson had no value due to injury even back then.

Saying he had no value probably isn't accurate. He probably could have been dealt for a couple prospects. But they chose to keep him around in the hopes that he'd have a strong year and build value. It didn't work out but it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

So what do we do with Tulo? He's basically constantly injured?

At this point it would be pretty surprising if Tulowitzki played another full season.
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Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #714 on: September 04, 2018, 05:18:17 AM »
Atkins on the logicality of the Donaldson trade:

Quote
Is one year at whatever value of Josh Donaldson more valuable than six years of Player X at Cost Y? That is an equation that anyone could do and figure out and determine which one they would rather have. And I think what lines up for us now very well is how well the acquired talent matches with a lot of our upper-level talent in our system.

Atkins on the so-called contract extendion:

Quote
We talked about extensions at length over the course of last offseason, Atkins said. Josh is an incredible player and will continue to be a great player. So as we weighed our alternatives, it just came down to us feeling that this was the best alternative for us in the moment. Now as far as how he sees that, you would have to talk more to him about that.

In short, Atkins said, Player X is worth more to the Jays than the draft pick they would have received had they offered him an $18-million qualifying offer when he became a free agent. It was also clear they did not wish to risk him accepting a qualifying offer.


Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #716 on: September 06, 2018, 02:49:00 AM »
No Vlad for September call-up?  Shapiro explains why...


Da rule:
The current rules state that a player needs 172 days for a year of service and six full years of service before he reaches free agency. If Guerrero or Jimnez debuted now, they would build up about 30 days worth of service time. By quashing any thought of a promotion now, it forces the teams to continue the empty excuses through spring training and the first two weeks of the season. By then, when a player can no longer accrue 172 days, he can be summoned for his debut, that extra free agent season secured.

Quote
I hate doing it, said one of the many general managers who has engaged in service-time manipulation. But if I didnt, I wouldnt be doing my job.


https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/mark-shapiro-speaks-polarizing-handling-vlad-guerrero-jr-232917663.html
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 03:38:09 AM by hockeyfan1 »

Offline hockeyfan1

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Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #718 on: September 06, 2018, 10:58:41 PM »
He said, they said. Looks like the Jays have gotten the attention of the baseball player's union in keeping Vladdy Guerrero Jr. from being called up. Quite the contrast to the reasons Shapiro gave the other day.
Here's why::


Offline cabber24

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #719 on: September 07, 2018, 09:21:22 AM »
No Vlad for September call-up?  Shapiro explains why...


Da rule:
The current rules state that a player needs 172 days for a year of service and six full years of service before he reaches free agency. If Guerrero or Jimnez debuted now, they would build up about 30 days worth of service time. By quashing any thought of a promotion now, it forces the teams to continue the empty excuses through spring training and the first two weeks of the season. By then, when a player can no longer accrue 172 days, he can be summoned for his debut, that extra free agent season secured.

Quote
I hate doing it, said one of the many general managers who has engaged in service-time manipulation. But if I didnt, I wouldnt be doing my job.


https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/mark-shapiro-speaks-polarizing-handling-vlad-guerrero-jr-232917663.html
Shapiro is so full of BS. I am convinced he thinks Blue Jay fans are idiots. He's so disingenuous. Please go to the Mets.
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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #719 on: September 07, 2018, 09:21:22 AM »