Author Topic: Jays Roster Discussion  (Read 51670 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #975 on: August 12, 2019, 08:20:53 PM »

The trade deadline was two weeks ago guys.

I am aware. And how was he worth absolutely nothing then as well.

Baseball trades are like trading a goalie in the NHL. It's not enough for the goalie to be pretty good, for him to have any real value you have to make a convincing argument as to why they're better than who they'd be replacing.
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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #975 on: August 12, 2019, 08:20:53 PM »

Offline Andy

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #976 on: August 12, 2019, 08:31:31 PM »
Poor asset management (again)!
Surely we could have got something for Galvis at the deadline instead of just losing him on waivers!!!
We are talking about a guy who is leading the team in hits, runs, doubles, RBIs...you can't tell me he is worth NOTHING!
Andy, "struggling to get a .300 OBP" describes 2/3 of the fricken team...sorry I don't buy the downplay of Galvis.

At this rate Jays management better hope every single pitching prospect they have pans out because they are giving away assets for pennies on the dollar and in this case for free.  :o

19 teams, until Cincinnati, decided not to pick up Galvis for free. Welcome to the current landscape of MLB baseball. He's a 30 yo super utility infielder who has never cracked a .700 OPS. Heck, he had a WAR over 2 last year and still only got a one-year guaranteed deal. I'm not saying he sucks, I'm saying this is the new reality. Guys like him just don't have a lot of value now.

Online Frank E

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #977 on: August 12, 2019, 08:39:54 PM »
So, not worth nothing if properly timed Bichette call up?

It seems to me as though they may have handled Bichette pretty well.

Sounds like you're working for the Jays. "We timed it perfectly."

Seems like a pretty good pickup for the Reds. Good for them, I guess. Just seems as though the Jays are giving away plenty of serviceable assets for peanuts, and it's starting to feel like the Coyotes here.           

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #978 on: August 12, 2019, 08:46:19 PM »
Sounds like you're working for the Jays. "We timed it perfectly."

I don't think you have to be in the Jays employ to have watched the last two weeks of games and not thought that they screwed up Bichette's development somehow.

Seems like a pretty good pickup for the Reds. Good for them, I guess. Just seems as though the Jays are giving away plenty of serviceable assets for peanuts, and it's starting to feel like the Coyotes here.           

So I've made the case that there's a reason why the market for him would be marginal, Deebo quotes a Jays reporter reporting that the market for him was marginal but we're still back at somehow the Jays didn't get a meaningful prospect for him because...they're not smart enough? They don't care enough about winning?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 08:47:58 PM by Nik the Trik »
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Online Frank E

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #979 on: August 13, 2019, 01:06:02 PM »
I don't think you have to be in the Jays employ to have watched the last two weeks of games and not thought that they screwed up Bichette's development somehow.

But I'm not talking about screwing up Bichette's development, am I?  I'm talking about calling him up about 2 weeks earlier to get a better determination of his abilities before the trade-deadline.

So I've made the case that there's a reason why the market for him would be marginal, Deebo quotes a Jays reporter reporting that the market for him was marginal but we're still back at somehow the Jays didn't get a meaningful prospect for him because...they're not smart enough? They don't care enough about winning?

I was reading Shi Davidi's article this morning...Atkins quoted:

“But it’s a matter of what other teams are willing to do. They were transparent about that at the deadline and there wasn’t a deal we were comfortable doing.”

The deals weren't much good, I'm convinced, but I bet it was better than the zero that they got from the Reds.

I'm just sort of spitballing here, with a little bit of evidence, that I'm not really convinced that Atkins is much of a talent sniffer, nor a savvy deal maker.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #980 on: August 13, 2019, 01:28:41 PM »
But I'm not talking about screwing up Bichette's development, am I?  I'm talking about calling him up about 2 weeks earlier to get a better determination of his abilities before the trade-deadline.

Right. And what you're using as "evidence" that doing that wouldn't have negatively affected Bichette's development is that the route they did take seems to have worked. Which is, again, a curious thing to take away as a piece of criticism for when the Jays' handling of Bichette.

Realistically, calling up Bichette a few weeks earlier or later wouldn't have a huge impact on his development but equally realistically the sort of guy the Jays could have gotten for Galvis at the deadline wouldn't be someone who'll have a big impact on the Jays fortunes. If it comes down to erring on the side of an extra C or D grade prospect or erring on the side of letting the Jays decide when to call up a top prospect regardless of a trade deadline...I'll go with the latter.

The deals weren't much good, I'm convinced, but I bet it was better than the zero that they got from the Reds.

The problem with that line of thinking is that, to some extent and especially with marginal prospects, these sorts of things are a zero sum game to an extent. The prospect that Jays maybe could have gotten from someone at the deadline for Galvis would have to have a roster spot and having a roster spot in the Jays organization means forcing out of a roster spot another marginal prospect. Not making a deal at the deadline could just be a sign that the guys that they could have acquired aren't more appealing to them than the guys they already have.

Minor prospects aren't nickels where if you can stuff enough in your pocket eventually they add up to a dollar. You have to decide if they represent a real upgrade or option organizationally. Just looking at this as "Atkins could have added something but didn't" the way we might look at adding a 6th or 7th round pick at the NHL deadline just isn't a reflection of how MLB teams build a prospect base.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #981 on: August 13, 2019, 01:31:55 PM »

Either way letting "Atkins didn't get a minor asset for Galvis at the deadline" be a bigger factor in your evaluation of him than "the guy Atkins drafted 66th overall is currently breaking records held by Ted Williams" is a heck of a take.
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Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #982 on: August 13, 2019, 01:37:08 PM »
But I'm not talking about screwing up Bichette's development, am I?  I'm talking about calling him up about 2 weeks earlier to get a better determination of his abilities before the trade-deadline.

I was reading Shi Davidi's article this morning...Atkins quoted:

“But it’s a matter of what other teams are willing to do. They were transparent about that at the deadline and there wasn’t a deal we were comfortable doing.”

The deals weren't much good, I'm convinced, but I bet it was better than the zero that they got from the Reds.

Personally, I don't think the timing of Bichette being called up would have changed anything. If there was a deal for something that they actually valued available for Galvis, they would have made it like they did with Sogard. There wasn't, so they didn't. I also don't think they should have altered their development plan for Bo at all just so they could get some marginal prospect in a trade for Galvis.

I really don't get why anyone would bemoan the fact that they might have got some non-prospect if they took whatever was available at the deadline. It's like being upset that someone saw a quarter on the street and didn't pick it up. The insurance that Galvis provided in the event Bichette have faltered and had to have been sent back down was probably worth more to the team than some teams 28th ranked prospect or something.

Offline Highlander

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #983 on: August 13, 2019, 04:36:38 PM »
But I'm not talking about screwing up Bichette's development, am I?  I'm talking about calling him up about 2 weeks earlier to get a better determination of his abilities before the trade-deadline.

I was reading Shi Davidi's article this morning...Atkins quoted:

“But it’s a matter of what other teams are willing to do. They were transparent about that at the deadline and there wasn’t a deal we were comfortable doing.”

The deals weren't much good, I'm convinced, but I bet it was better than the zero that they got from the Reds.

Personally, I don't think the timing of Bichette being called up would have changed anything. If there was a deal for something that they actually valued available for Galvis, they would have made it like they did with Sogard. There wasn't, so they didn't. I also don't think they should have altered their development plan for Bo at all just so they could get some marginal prospect in a trade for Galvis.

I really don't get why anyone would bemoan the fact that they might have got some non-prospect if they took whatever was available at the deadline. It's like being upset that someone saw a quarter on the street and didn't pick it up. The insurance that Galvis provided in the event Bichette have faltered and had to have been sent back down was probably worth more to the team than some teams 28th ranked prospect or something.
Speaking of Sogard, I wonder what they are getting back for him, a sack of magic beans or some ruby red shoes?  Probably has some form of performance based incentives on what the return will be. And when does it have to be announced?
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Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #984 on: August 13, 2019, 04:51:32 PM »
Speaking of Sogard, I wonder what they are getting back for him, a sack of magic beans or some ruby red shoes?  Probably has some form of performance based incentives on what the return will be. And when does it have to be announced?

There was a report that the Jays can select 2 PTBNL from a list of Rays pitching prospects at a later date.

You probably won't have heard of them just like you probably had never heard of Sogard prior to the Jays signing him, I know I hadn't.

Online Frank E

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #985 on: August 13, 2019, 06:29:14 PM »
But I'm not talking about screwing up Bichette's development, am I?  I'm talking about calling him up about 2 weeks earlier to get a better determination of his abilities before the trade-deadline.

I was reading Shi Davidi's article this morning...Atkins quoted:

“But it’s a matter of what other teams are willing to do. They were transparent about that at the deadline and there wasn’t a deal we were comfortable doing.”

The deals weren't much good, I'm convinced, but I bet it was better than the zero that they got from the Reds.

Personally, I don't think the timing of Bichette being called up would have changed anything. If there was a deal for something that they actually valued available for Galvis, they would have made it like they did with Sogard. There wasn't, so they didn't. I also don't think they should have altered their development plan for Bo at all just so they could get some marginal prospect in a trade for Galvis.

I really don't get why anyone would bemoan the fact that they might have got some non-prospect if they took whatever was available at the deadline. It's like being upset that someone saw a quarter on the street and didn't pick it up. The insurance that Galvis provided in the event Bichette have faltered and had to have been sent back down was probably worth more to the team than some teams 28th ranked prospect or something.

Listen, I really don't know enough about baseball assets to have a strong opinion here, but I'm a business guy, and there are people that just aren't easy to deal with that just don't succeed well in my business.

I'm just reading stuff that is suggesting that the Jays aren't winning these trades at face value lately.  I'm wondering why that is, and is it possible that Atkins just isn't a guy that other GM's are wanting to do business with?

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #986 on: August 13, 2019, 06:39:31 PM »

There is literally a scene in a major Hollywood motion picture about the best GM in Baseball being happy to deal with Shapiro.
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Offline Highlander

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #987 on: August 13, 2019, 06:51:45 PM »
what are PTBNL prospects?
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Offline IJustLurkHere

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #988 on: August 13, 2019, 06:58:57 PM »

I'm just reading stuff that is suggesting that the Jays aren't winning these trades at face value lately.  I'm wondering why that is, and is it possible that Atkins just isn't a guy that other GM's are wanting to do business with?

The impression I have is that Atkins just doesn’t factor in the trade-by-trade micro-analysis into his decision making. One of the reasons the NHL trade market has dried up so much is that GMs are scared of “losing” every deal... Atkins seems unperturbed by the fan disquiet at “giving away” a player if that “loss” doesn’t impact his big picture plans.

I know I’d have felt better if there was some kid coming the other way, even if likely result is the kid never gets past double-A. But if there was a handshake deal with Galvin before he signed, that trumps my insecurity.

Online hockeyfan1

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #989 on: August 13, 2019, 07:49:00 PM »
what are PTBNL prospects?


This article here explains quite a few things.  The PTBNL (Player To Be Named Later) for the Jays from the Sogard trade to the Rays will consist of 2 PTBNL from a prospect list of pitchers.

Quote
...having earlier sent Eric Sogard to the Tampa Bay Rays for two players to be named later, whom they will pick from a group of four pitchers in the lower levels of the minors, according to an industry source.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/an-attempt-to-figure-out-what-the-blue-jays-got-for-eric-sogard-175913571.html


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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #989 on: August 13, 2019, 07:49:00 PM »