Jays Roster Discussion

[Nik]

If anyone out there is interested in the actual ticket price increases over the last few years, which range from 24% to 110%, Andrew Stoeten has the numbers here:

https://bluejaysnation.com/2017/07/31/hey-look-its-the-jays-season-ticket-prices-from-2014-to-2018/

Other than that, I'm not sure what to say beyond if people think they're not getting a good deal for the money they should...stop buying tickets?

[Nik]

And another worthwhile Stoeten piece about the turf and possible stadium renos:

https://bluejaysnation.com/2017/02/13/don-t-hold-your-breath-for-rogers-centre-grass/

And then, from Jays on the Couch, here's what Shapiro has said directly on the issue:

If it had not been a historical issue for the Blue Jays, anyone sitting in my chair would have ascertained that in the scope of things we’re looking at this is probably not realistic. Out of respect to what a focal point it has been here historically, we spent the time to understand what it would cost to retrofit a building that has no drainage, that was not meant to have grass and how we would actually install grass and keep it alive with the roof never being open…what it would involve in year to year maintenance…

I can tell you, when you start to get the numbers – you can tell by the way I’m talking about it – that would begin to not necessarily be a small part of a renovation, but grass would have to be one of the focal points of the entire renovation to make that happen.

For any TL:DR types out there, Beeston commissioned a study on the feasibility of natural grass, Shapiro got the study and it doesn't look particularly feasible.

[cabber24]

This team depresses me. I have never been so disinterested in the Blue Jays then I am right now. It's hard to not feel like the fans were abandoned. We had the best viewership and attendance and what do we get, higher tickets prices and a garbage team. Trade everyone for 36 RHP prospects.

[IJustLurkHere]

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I'm relatively optimistic... 2019, and probably 2020 will be about seeing which of the group of kids can stick at MLB. While we're probably not signing FAs and taking another run until at least 2021, there are a lot of guys on the doorstep, and there's no set date on these things, so there's room to dream.

I wonder if sometimes the lack of draft pick trading in MLB makes it hard for teams that are rebuilding to convey that message effectively (though, with development times in MLB, it probably stops teams from crucifying themselves into 10 year long shot plans).

I get not necessarily being excited by watching young players develop, but the degree of seeming anger towards the Jays front office for not being able to continue propping up the 2015/16 group perplexes me.

[Nik]

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

[L K]

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018.  They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion.  I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

[cabber24]

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018.  They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion.  I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

They didn’t either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

[bustaheims]

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

I think that's part of it. Another part is also the timeline in rebuilding an NHL team in comparison to an MLB team. NHL top prospects reach the league and perform at a high level relatively quickly. Even second and third tier type guys get the NHL faster than most MLB top prospects. You can turn an NHL team around in 3-5 seasons without having to trade for significant pieces who are already established or sign them as expensive free agents. That's much harder to do with an MLB team.

[Nik]

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018.  They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion.  I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

I generally give them a bit of a mulligan on 2017. It would have been a very hard sell to the guys in the clubhouse, to say nothing of fans, to tear down a playoff team before they'd had a bad year.

I think they did rebuild last year when and where they could and while I think a fair case could be made that they should have moved some guys they didn't, they did trade guys like Happ and Pearce and Granderson and so on.

edit: Also, and I guess this is a minor point, but while I somewhat get and disagree with the Donaldson thing, I don't get EE at all. Should the Jays have traded him during the playoff run of 2016? Or should they have signed him to a deal they didn't like in the hopes of trading him later on? Because at the money he was asking for, I doubt they could get much more for him than the FA compensation draft pick.

[Nik]

I think that's part of it. Another part is also the timeline in rebuilding an NHL team in comparison to an MLB team. NHL top prospects reach the league and perform at a high level relatively quickly. Even second and third tier type guys get the NHL faster than most MLB top prospects. You can turn an NHL team around in 3-5 seasons without having to trade for significant pieces who are already established or sign them as expensive free agents. That's much harder to do with an MLB team.

Well, and as LK has sort of pointed to I think the rebuild is an easier sell if you can look at a top 10 or top 5 draft pick even if, like you say, they don't get to the big leagues for a while. The Jays have sort of middle grounded it although having very high draft picks is less important in a MLB rebuild than the NHL.

[IJustLurkHere]

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018.  They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion.  I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

They didn’t either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

[sickbeast]

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018.  They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion.  I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

They didn’t either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/mlb/unveiled-in-atlanta-ex-blue-jay-josh-donaldson-takes-shot-at-former-team?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1543415812

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money.  That should tell you all you need to know as a fan.  Attendance was good, the organization was profitable.  Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down.  Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point.  It's hard to watch as fan.  You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that.  IMO that's all nonsense.  The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down.  Donaldson makes a good point.  Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff?  The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies.  This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan.  Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them.  You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season.  All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

[Nik]

If I were Donaldson and aware of the money the last two years had cost me I'd be looking for scapegoats too.

[IJustLurkHere]

They didn’t either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/mlb/unveiled-in-atlanta-ex-blue-jay-josh-donaldson-takes-shot-at-former-team?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1543415812

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money.  That should tell you all you need to know as a fan.  Attendance was good, the organization was profitable.  Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down.  Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point.  It's hard to watch as fan.  You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that.  IMO that's all nonsense.  The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down.  Donaldson makes a good point.  Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff?  The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies.  This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan.  Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them.  You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season.  All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to “the soul of the team”?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he can’t, he’s not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasn’t fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where I’m wrong, but it not Donaldson, it’s not Encarnacion, and it’s ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, that’s only to be expected.

[Bender]

They didn’t either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/mlb/unveiled-in-atlanta-ex-blue-jay-josh-donaldson-takes-shot-at-former-team?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1543415812

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money.  That should tell you all you need to know as a fan.  Attendance was good, the organization was profitable.  Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down.  Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point.  It's hard to watch as fan.  You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that.  IMO that's all nonsense.  The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down.  Donaldson makes a good point.  Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff?  The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies.  This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan.  Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them.  You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season.  All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to “the soul of the team”?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he can’t, he’s not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasn’t fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where I’m wrong, but it not Donaldson, it’s not Encarnacion, and it’s ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, that’s only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.