Author Topic: The Donald  (Read 103706 times)

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Offline bustaheims

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1740 on: May 23, 2019, 08:31:59 AM »
Someone needs to explain to the President what transparent means

Or, how it's possible for a governing body to work on multiple things at the same time.
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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1740 on: May 23, 2019, 08:31:59 AM »

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1741 on: May 23, 2019, 09:28:28 AM »
I think it's pretty clear that the only thing the "Conservative/Republican" leaning people of the country believe in anymore is hatred, racism and misogyny.

I think that's a fairly broad stroke you're painting those that are typically conservative with.

I have generally been a conservative voter. I don't support Ford. Nor do I support Trump. That doesn't mean I'm a Liberal.

I don't want to speak for LK but I think "the country" he's referring to there is, given the thread, the US.

One, that's not how I read it. Two, I'm going to guess that the majority conservative/republican voters in the states aren't believers in misogyny, hatred and racism.

Labelling someone something they are not drives them further towards political ideas such as Trump's. Much the way painting Muslims with one broad stroke risks pushing more towards extreme ideology and a hatred for you and your beliefs.

Education is the only way to effect change. Telling someone they are a racist because they don't share your views doesn't educate anyone.

Offline L K

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1742 on: May 23, 2019, 10:21:20 AM »
I think it's pretty clear that the only thing the "Conservative/Republican" leaning people of the country believe in anymore is hatred, racism and misogyny.

I think that's a fairly broad stroke you're painting those that are typically conservative with.

I have generally been a conservative voter. I don't support Ford. Nor do I support Trump. That doesn't mean I'm a Liberal.

I don't want to speak for LK but I think "the country" he's referring to there is, given the thread, the US.

One, that's not how I read it. Two, I'm going to guess that the majority conservative/republican voters in the states aren't believers in misogyny, hatred and racism.

Labelling someone something they are not drives them further towards political ideas such as Trump's. Much the way painting Muslims with one broad stroke risks pushing more towards extreme ideology and a hatred for you and your beliefs.

Education is the only way to effect change. Telling someone they are a racist because they don't share your views doesn't educate anyone.

You are free to take it however you like.  Education doesn't seem to matter anyone and if in 2019 we require hand holding to explain that being homophobic, or that locking people in cages isn't right then quite frankly I'm quite content to sit where I stand.

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1743 on: May 23, 2019, 10:47:17 AM »
I think it's pretty clear that the only thing the "Conservative/Republican" leaning people of the country believe in anymore is hatred, racism and misogyny.

I think that's a fairly broad stroke you're painting those that are typically conservative with.

I have generally been a conservative voter. I don't support Ford. Nor do I support Trump. That doesn't mean I'm a Liberal.

I don't want to speak for LK but I think "the country" he's referring to there is, given the thread, the US.

One, that's not how I read it. Two, I'm going to guess that the majority conservative/republican voters in the states aren't believers in misogyny, hatred and racism.

Labelling someone something they are not drives them further towards political ideas such as Trump's. Much the way painting Muslims with one broad stroke risks pushing more towards extreme ideology and a hatred for you and your beliefs.

Education is the only way to effect change. Telling someone they are a racist because they don't share your views doesn't educate anyone.

You are free to take it however you like.  Education doesn't seem to matter anyone and if in 2019 we require hand holding to explain that being homophobic, or that locking people in cages isn't right then quite frankly I'm quite content to sit where I stand.

And that is just as close minded as those who according to you believe in those things.

Education isn't hand holding.

Grouping people together because they don't believe in your political views is the exact same thing you're accusing them of doing when they judge based on race/sex.

People don't have to be Liberals/democrats to denounce racism or locking people in cages. Give your head a shake man.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1744 on: May 23, 2019, 11:10:18 AM »
One, that's not how I read it.

So you thought he meant people who are leaning towards voting for the Republican party outside of the United States?
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Offline Deebo

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1745 on: May 23, 2019, 11:16:11 AM »
And that is just as close minded as those who according to you believe in those things.

Education isn't hand holding.

Grouping people together because they don't believe in your political views is the exact same thing you're accusing them of doing when they judge based on race/sex.

People don't have to be Liberals/democrats to denounce racism or locking people in cages. Give your head a shake man.

No, judging based on race and sex is very different than judging based on political views.

Race/sex are things people can't change about themselves and has no bearing on the content of their character.  Nobody chooses to be a visible minority, gay or a woman.

People can change their political views and voting behaviour. Continuing to support the party and vote for candidates that condone these things is a choice that people make.

Offline TML fan

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1746 on: May 23, 2019, 01:29:28 PM »
Voting a certain way doesn't mean that every single one of your beliefs aligns with the party's.


Offline AvroArrow

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1747 on: May 23, 2019, 01:46:53 PM »
One, that's not how I read it.

So you thought he meant people who are leaning towards voting for the Republican party outside of the United States?

He obviously meant right leaning in general... But Nik's gotta Nik...

Online Hobbes

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1748 on: May 23, 2019, 02:13:28 PM »
Voting a certain way doesn't mean that every single one of your beliefs aligns with the party's.

A lot of votes in the 2016 USA election (and the Canadian 2015 and probably the Ontario 2018) were as much "votes against" as they were "votes for." Trump's margin of victory was likely thanks to the anti-Hillary vote being greater than the anti-unknown-commodity-Trump vote.
It's not denial...I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1749 on: May 23, 2019, 02:26:04 PM »
A lot of votes in the 2016 USA election (and the Canadian 2015 and probably the Ontario 2018) were as much "votes against" as they were "votes for." Trump's margin of victory was likely thanks to the anti-Hillary vote being greater than the anti-unknown-commodity-Trump vote.

I don't think that absolves people from the responsibility of what they voted for. Especially when the "unknown commodity" is a 70 year old man with a long and lengthy track record that more or less was a pretty good indication of what he'd do in office.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 03:15:33 PM by Nik the Trik »
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Online Hobbes

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1750 on: May 23, 2019, 03:11:19 PM »
[http://tmlfans.ca/community/Smileys/default/smiley.gifquote author=Hobbes link=topic=3696.msg365035#msg365035 date=1558635208]
A lot of votes in the 2016 USA election (and the Canadian 2015 and probably the Ontario 2018) were as much "votes against" as they were "votes for." Trump's margin of victory was likely thanks to the anti-Hillary vote being greater than the anti-unknown-commodity-Trump vote.

I don't think that absolves people from the responsibility of what they voted for. Especially when the "unknown commodity" is a 70 year old man with a long and lengthy track record that more or less was a pretty good indication of what he'd do in office.
[/quote]
I don't disagree with you. I have a number of friends in some of the swing States who voted for Trump which shocked me as I'd had the same reservations you note above. They each said that they felt at the time that Hillary was an even worse choice and hoped that the people surrounding Trump/the office of the President would be able to reign him in and/or he'd appreciate the gravitas a bit more and be less of a wingnut.

Were they being unreasonably hopeful? Hindsight says emphatically "yes" but I can at least sympathize with their difficult decision at the time. What I find far more troubling is (the much smaller number of) those who are actually willing to vote for him for a 2nd term in spite of the evidence to the contrary. I find it hard to imaging Clinton having done more damage to the USA in 4 years of office than Trump will.
It's not denial...I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

Offline Bender

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1751 on: May 23, 2019, 03:12:26 PM »
[http://tmlfans.ca/community/Smileys/default/smiley.gifquote author=Hobbes link=topic=3696.msg365035#msg365035 date=1558635208]
A lot of votes in the 2016 USA election (and the Canadian 2015 and probably the Ontario 2018) were as much "votes against" as they were "votes for." Trump's margin of victory was likely thanks to the anti-Hillary vote being greater than the anti-unknown-commodity-Trump vote.

I don't think that absolves people from the responsibility of what they voted for. Especially when the "unknown commodity" is a 70 year old man with a long and lengthy track record that more or less was a pretty good indication of what he'd do in office.
[/quote]

This isn't a direct reference to the above but I kind think it's like on the Simpsons when everyone voted for Sideshow Bob. One policy might be deploreable but you live with it because there's one policy that is more "in line" with your thinking and you accept the collateral damage, even if it might be great. Let's say hypothetically you get your tax cut but the country as a whole is worse off for dozens of other reasons.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1752 on: May 23, 2019, 03:19:19 PM »
This isn't a direct reference to the above but I kind think it's like on the Simpsons when everyone voted for Sideshow Bob. One policy might be deploreable but you live with it because there's one policy that is more "in line" with your thinking and you accept the collateral damage, even if it might be great. Let's say hypothetically you get your tax cut but the country as a whole is worse off for dozens of other reasons.

Sure, but to sort of bring it back to what LK I think was getting at if that "deplorable" policy that you're more or less willing to accept for your tax cut is, say, kids in cages at the border or the repeal of Roe v. Wade or whatever then regardless of how someone might define themselves with regards to issues of race or women's rights or gay rights or whatever that their tacit support is still support.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline AtomicMapleLeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1753 on: May 23, 2019, 04:51:16 PM »
Here's the thing I've noticed during my 35 years living here. A lot of Republicans (including all of the ones I personally know), will only vote for a republican and they defend them once elected like they're rooting for their favorite football team. They would vote for a gay muslim woman if she had an R next to her name.  The other thing is that they only watch FOX news so they don't know some of the things that are actually going on because it's not presented to them. And if they do hear about it, they scoff it off as liberal nonsense or fake news.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1754 on: May 23, 2019, 07:46:24 PM »
Here's the thing I've noticed during my 35 years living here. A lot of Republicans (including all of the ones I personally know), will only vote for a republican and they defend them once elected like they're rooting for their favorite football team. They would vote for a gay muslim woman if she had an R next to her name.  The other thing is that they only watch FOX news so they don't know some of the things that are actually going on because it's not presented to them. And if they do hear about it, they scoff it off as liberal nonsense or fake news.

Yeah, that's sort of my point. "Conservatism" in the US basically seems to have lost all meaning beyond "this is what Republicans are doing, therefore I support it". Right now Trump is basically engaging in protectionist economic policy by means of trade tariffs and then using tax payer money to prop up the industries negatively affected by retaliatory measures. I grew up with a free market being the cornerstone of Conservative economic thought. Now Republicans are supporting isolationist trade agendas and talking seriously about nationalizing private tech companies if they're insufficiently "balanced".

The organized Left in the US basically spends all of its time slitting each others throats for being insufficiently ideologically pure while the Right seems to have lost any and all semblance of a coherent mission statement beyond supporting the con man they elected president.
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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1754 on: May 23, 2019, 07:46:24 PM »