Author Topic: The Donald  (Read 114408 times)

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Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1170 on: September 25, 2017, 12:45:28 PM »
What I have a problem with though is just retreating back into our "teams" and refusing to talk to those who don't agree with us, society has never progressed that way.

Right, ok. I mainly agree with that. Where I guess we might disagree is whether the tone of that ongoing conversation needs to be more about the subtle art of persuasion as opposed to the forceful emphasis of how badly change is needed.

To be clear, I don't think that's an easy answer because I agree the first is more politic but I sometimes think that a lot of what we see wrong now is the result of trying to be politic as opposed to conveying the immediacy of a need for positive change. While I sympathize with the argument for political considerations I also don't think you want to then come down on the side of tone-policing the people who are on the front lines of the struggle.

I mainly agree, we do have to be careful and have many strings to our bow.

If all you have is a hammer, you see everything as a nail.

None of this is easy and a different approach will be needed to reach different people.

We need to stop dealing in absolutes on every issue and start finding common ground, it needs to be less about winning and more about doing what's right.

As for protesting police brutality, it's obvious that we need to address that as a matter of urgency.

What isn't productive is looking at a young man who supports your right to protest, even though it's in a manner he has been raised to find inappropriate and vilifying him, which has absolutely happened on social media this morning.

In that situation, you have a conversation with him about the real reasons for the protest, which most of the media have avoided, and help him to understand.

If at that point he is unreceptive, then we have a problem.

Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1171 on: September 25, 2017, 12:46:20 PM »

Now I like the Jets. Trump really has gone too far.

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1171 on: September 25, 2017, 12:46:20 PM »

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1172 on: September 25, 2017, 01:28:15 PM »
What isn't productive is looking at a young man who supports your right to protest, even though it's in a manner he has been raised to find inappropriate and vilifying him, which has absolutely happened on social media this morning.

You know, as a religious minority myself something I thought was a little unfortunate was that Nazem Kadri was expected to be sort of the flag-bearer for Muslims in the NHL and answer questions about travel bans and the like regardless of whether or not he wanted that attention

Conversely, I also know as that religious minority that while I had a problem with everyone who supported Trump in the immediate aftermath of Charlottesville I had a very specific reaction to any Jewish members of his administration who would support him after that.

So without wanting to speak to the specifics of social media happenings I'm not party to, all I'd say is that because of Matthews' own particular ethnic heritage some people out there might expect more of him and while I can see how that can be a lot to put on someone I'm also not inclined to dismiss it out of hand either.
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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1173 on: September 25, 2017, 01:37:09 PM »

And just to say one more thing on the topic. Because I like to think of myself as someone who does try to at least understand all sides of an issue even if I very much disagree with a side I did wonder, this weekend, how I would feel if Carey Price or another player of Native descent decided to kneel for the Canadian anthem because of the treatment of our First Nations people. Or, alternately, if an opposing player refused to stand for the Israeli national anthem to protest the ongoing conflict there.

And what I keep coming back to is this is why it is a bad idea to conflate sports and nationalism. This is why it's a bad idea to play the anthem, and demand everyone respond in the same way to the anthem. No matter how benign or benevolent you think your country is I think even a basic level of empathy would recognize that not all people feel the same way about nationalistic identity and the symbols of it. Demanding they do is creepy.

Because let's be real. It's performative. I'm pretty confident that nobody here, watching Hockey Night at home, stands up and removes their hat for the Anthem. We probably keep sitting and eating or talking or whatever.

Playing the anthem is inherently political and we don't demand it of every public gathering. We don't do it at concerts or at movies or the theatre. You can't demand a political statement like "everyone now perform their rote, required daily patriotism" and then be offended ; when people want to have their own political moment.

tl;dr We shouldn't play national anthems before sporting events. Patriotism is the first refuge of the scoundrel.
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Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1174 on: September 25, 2017, 01:44:29 PM »
What isn't productive is looking at a young man who supports your right to protest, even though it's in a manner he has been raised to find inappropriate and vilifying him, which has absolutely happened on social media this morning.

You know, as a religious minority myself something I thought was a little unfortunate was that Nazem Kadri was expected to be sort of the flag-bearer for Muslims in the NHL and answer questions about travel bans and the like regardless of whether or not he wanted that attention

Conversely, I also know as that religious minority that while I had a problem with everyone who supported Trump in the immediate aftermath of Charlottesville I had a very specific reaction to any Jewish members of his administration who would support him after that.

So without wanting to speak to the specifics of social media happenings I'm not party to, all I'd say is that because of Matthews' own particular ethnic heritage some people out there might expect more of him and while I can see how that can be a lot to put on someone I'm also not inclined to dismiss it out of hand either.

That's fair, I just object to those that are twisting what he said without giving him the opportunity to fully expand/understand on the issue.

For example, both TSN and The Score ran stories/tweets with the headline "Matthews says it's disrespectful to kneel during anthem" that's not accurately representing what he really said and it twists his words to get people's attention.

Lastly, in case anyone has misunderstood any of what I'm saying, as someone in a mixed race marriage in the American south, with a young son who is inevitably going to be the victim of prejudice, I try extremely hard to stay informed and on the right side of most of these issues and i'm sorry if I haven't adequately expressed that.

Offline Zee

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1175 on: September 25, 2017, 01:53:55 PM »

And just to say one more thing on the topic. Because I like to think of myself as someone who does try to at least understand all sides of an issue even if I very much disagree with a side I did wonder, this weekend, how I would feel if Carey Price or another player of Native descent decided to kneel for the Canadian anthem because of the treatment of our First Nations people. Or, alternately, if an opposing player refused to stand for the Israeli national anthem to protest the ongoing conflict there.

And what I keep coming back to is this is why it is a bad idea to conflate sports and nationalism. This is why it's a bad idea to play the anthem, and demand everyone respond in the same way to the anthem. No matter how benign or benevolent you think your country is I think even a basic level of empathy would recognize that not all people feel the same way about nationalistic identity and the symbols of it. Demanding they do is creepy.

Because let's be real. It's performative. I'm pretty confident that nobody here, watching Hockey Night at home, stands up and removes their hat for the Anthem. We probably keep sitting and eating or talking or whatever.

Playing the anthem is inherently political and we don't demand it of every public gathering. We don't do it at concerts or at movies or the theatre. You can't demand a political statement like "everyone now perform their rote, required daily patriotism" and then be offended ; when people want to have their own political moment.

tl;dr We shouldn't play national anthems before sporting events. Patriotism is the first refuge of the scoundrel.

This is Nik's greatest ever post.

Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1176 on: September 25, 2017, 02:16:49 PM »
So, we should ban anthem-playing at the Olympics and other international events (even though it is often played after a recipient receives Gold on the podium, and in team sports -- ice hockey for instance -- after a win).

What about during the NHL playoffs?  No anthem, zilch?
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I do enjoy the anthem played during the above-mentioned, at least.

Offline louisstamos

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1177 on: September 25, 2017, 03:18:39 PM »
So, we should ban anthem-playing at the Olympics and other international events (even though it is often played after a recipient receives Gold on the podium, and in team sports -- ice hockey for instance -- after a win).

What about during the NHL playoffs?  No anthem, zilch?
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I do enjoy the anthem played during the above-mentioned, at least.

I'm okay with the anthem in international tournaments such as the Olympics, World Cup, etc, because it is about countries and nationalism in those cases.

Playoffs, though?  Meh.

Offline bustaheims

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1178 on: September 25, 2017, 03:56:11 PM »
I'm okay with the anthem in international tournaments such as the Olympics, World Cup, etc, because it is about countries and nationalism in those cases.

Playoffs, though?  Meh.

Agreed. When national teams are playing, then you play the anthem of the winning team after to game to acknowledge their victory. No national teams? No anthems.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline herman

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1179 on: September 25, 2017, 06:43:40 PM »
Alejandro Villanueva, Army veteran and Steelers offensive linesman, became an overnight hero for conservative Americans by being the sole Pittsburgh Steeler to stand for the anthem after the powder keg some buffoon's Twittering set off over the weekend. His jersey is currently the number one bestseller.

Turns out he came out for the anthem by accident, after the team decided to stay in the tunnel in a predetermined display of unity.

https://sports.yahoo.com/alejandro-villanueva-takes-blame-standing-anthem-223017948.html

Quote
“I made my teammates look bad, and that is my fault only,” Villanueva said, according to KDKA. “We as a team tried to figure it out, but obviously butchered it.

“For anybody who thinks Coach Tomlin is not as patriotic as you can get in America, I’m offended by that,” Villanueva said. “I made Coach Tomlin look bad, and that is my fault, and my fault only.”

Villanueva said his teammates are extremely supportive and patriotic. And he said he has no problem with anyone who kneels during the anthem.

“I will support all my teammates, and all my teammates and all my coaches have always supported me,” Villanueva said.
#BeBlessed

Offline herman

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#BeBlessed

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1181 on: September 25, 2017, 07:34:11 PM »

"You know what I hate? When protesting players have to bring politics into sports!"

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Offline bustaheims

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1182 on: September 25, 2017, 07:35:30 PM »
Pretty sure that's a violation of US Flag Code
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline L K

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1183 on: September 26, 2017, 05:10:47 AM »
Trump finally pulled himself away from anti-NFL comments to get back to talking about Puerto Rico.  He's really concerned.....about the fact that they owe billions to big banks.  What a huge piece of human feces he is.

Offline Heroic Shrimp

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1184 on: September 26, 2017, 08:38:25 AM »
Loving the response from the athletic community against this clown of a man....well aside from the Penguins organization who threw out the "we respect the office of the President" nonsense.

Yeah, I said it in the NHL thread but that was pretty disheartening. To me it's not about politics or even in this case whether or not the Penguins are going to the White House. It's that they felt the need to make an announcement that didn't even address the complete and total lack of dignity and respect the President showed to people in their profession.

Puck Daddy said it well:

https://sports.yahoo.com/penguins-wrong-accept-trumps-invitation-feeble-statement-164255570.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw

Some of interesting thoughts about Crosby and the Penguins going to the White House, and some history of racial tensions in Cole Harbour:


« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:40:24 AM by Heroic Shrimp »
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