Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 16384 times)

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Offline Highlander

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #690 on: August 01, 2020, 05:08:11 PM »
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public.  In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.
To be fair, the UK hasnt exactly been an example of well executed COVID policy or strategy.
True but even in Canada, Tam didn't seem to realize that masks were our best line of defense in not spreading the disease.  Hard to believe she was even spouting off against it some point, I seem to remember. (could be wrong).
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Online OldTimeHockey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #691 on: Yesterday at 08:43:31 AM »
Something like 99% of Ontario's population is under a mandatory indoor mask order now.

I'm not seeing it when I'm out and about, that's for sure.

I got an email asking me out to a couple private games at icesports. I checked it out, and they are indeed open for play, with a few distancing safeguards (4 on 4, no dressing rooms, no faceoffs). That really surprises me.

Canlan in York (I believe) is running a 4 on 4 youth hockey tournament. I know a few people that brought their daughters this weekend. They also have another one in 2 weeks. We were invited but declined. What's the point?

Online OldTimeHockey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #692 on: Yesterday at 08:45:52 AM »
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public.  In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.
To be fair, the UK hasnt exactly been an example of well executed COVID policy or strategy.
True but even in Canada, Tam didn't seem to realize that masks were our best line of defense in not spreading the disease.  Hard to believe she was even spouting off against it some point, I seem to remember. (could be wrong).

The learning to this pandemic is very fluid and at the point that Tam said masks don't help, they were learning new facts every hour. I kind of feel that they over exposed themselves as a government in their desire to inform the public. Perhaps there was too much info being passed. I know that's the opposite of what you want your government to do, but now you have people quoting recommendations from March to support their argument in July.

Offline Nik

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #693 on: Yesterday at 09:46:59 AM »

It's also important to remember that earlier there were real fears about a shortage of PPE for essential workers and health care personnel, especially if the health care system got overloaded. Given what we saw with toilet paper I don't know if there would have been a way for the government to say "Masks are an important line of defense but don't hoard them like jerks" and have people actually listen.
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Offline Bender

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #694 on: Yesterday at 12:04:08 PM »
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public.  In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.
To be fair, the UK hasnt exactly been an example of well executed COVID policy or strategy.
True but even in Canada, Tam didn't seem to realize that masks were our best line of defense in not spreading the disease.  Hard to believe she was even spouting off against it some point, I seem to remember. (could be wrong).

The learning to this pandemic is very fluid and at the point that Tam said masks don't help, they were learning new facts every hour. I kind of feel that they over exposed themselves as a government in their desire to inform the public. Perhaps there was too much info being passed. I know that's the opposite of what you want your government to do, but now you have people quoting recommendations from March to support their argument in July.
That's true, but I mean isn't there a playbook on infectious diseases? Like have there not been studies conducted for other viruses in the past that show some level of effectiveness or not? Asian countries have masked up for years, I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any data for other diseases. I think the idea that cloth masks would do more harm than good was kind of ridiculous (at worst I could see it as net neutral), and maybe this is the kind of debate laypeople have but surely our Chief medical officer would have more depth of knowledge on masking in a general sense than we do. Also this line of reasoning just resurfaced (although with a little more legitimacy) in the Sick Kids document saying kids under a certain age shouldn't be required to wear masks because younger kids might play with discarded masks on a playground and are less likely to spread disease (which when I talk to people with kids seems very untrue considering they complain about being sick frequently). I mean, there are a couple good arguments for kids not wearing masks but worrying about kids playing with discarded masks and spreading disease that way vs. lack of space, ventilation etc. is so bizarre to me.
   
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:07:20 PM by Bender »
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Online OldTimeHockey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #695 on: Yesterday at 12:20:24 PM »
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public.  In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.
To be fair, the UK hasnt exactly been an example of well executed COVID policy or strategy.
True but even in Canada, Tam didn't seem to realize that masks were our best line of defense in not spreading the disease.  Hard to believe she was even spouting off against it some point, I seem to remember. (could be wrong).

The learning to this pandemic is very fluid and at the point that Tam said masks don't help, they were learning new facts every hour. I kind of feel that they over exposed themselves as a government in their desire to inform the public. Perhaps there was too much info being passed. I know that's the opposite of what you want your government to do, but now you have people quoting recommendations from March to support their argument in July.
That's true, but I mean isn't there a playbook on infectious diseases? Like have there not been studies conducted for other viruses in the past that show some level of effectiveness or not? Asian countries have masked up for years, I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any data for other diseases. I think the idea that cloth masks would do more harm than good was kind of ridiculous (at worst I could see it as net neutral), and maybe this is the kind of debate laypeople have but surely our Chief medical officer would have more depth of knowledge on masking in a general sense than we do. Also this line of reasoning just resurfaced (although with a little more legitimacy) in the Sick Kids document saying kids under a certain age shouldn't be required to wear masks because younger kids might play with discarded masks on a playground and are less likely to spread disease (which when I talk to people with kids seems very untrue considering they complain about being sick frequently). I mean, there are a couple good arguments for kids not wearing masks but worrying about kids playing with discarded masks and spreading disease that way vs. lack of space, ventilation etc. is so bizarre to me.
   

I don't know that Tam ever said that masks do more harm than good (other than creating a false sense of security).
I believe many balls were dropped with this pandemic, but let's be honest, they were learning on the fly. I give both Ford and Trudeau a pass because of this very reason.

When this first struck they were unsure how this virus was passed. Was it airborne? Was it passed from item to item? Was it just saliva? Was it passed through the eyes? They had ideas but the goal posts kept moving as more and more cases popped up.

Also, as Nik says, there were real concerns on shortages of supply.

Offline Bender

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #696 on: Yesterday at 01:17:38 PM »
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public.  In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.
To be fair, the UK hasnt exactly been an example of well executed COVID policy or strategy.
True but even in Canada, Tam didn't seem to realize that masks were our best line of defense in not spreading the disease.  Hard to believe she was even spouting off against it some point, I seem to remember. (could be wrong).

The learning to this pandemic is very fluid and at the point that Tam said masks don't help, they were learning new facts every hour. I kind of feel that they over exposed themselves as a government in their desire to inform the public. Perhaps there was too much info being passed. I know that's the opposite of what you want your government to do, but now you have people quoting recommendations from March to support their argument in July.
That's true, but I mean isn't there a playbook on infectious diseases? Like have there not been studies conducted for other viruses in the past that show some level of effectiveness or not? Asian countries have masked up for years, I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any data for other diseases. I think the idea that cloth masks would do more harm than good was kind of ridiculous (at worst I could see it as net neutral), and maybe this is the kind of debate laypeople have but surely our Chief medical officer would have more depth of knowledge on masking in a general sense than we do. Also this line of reasoning just resurfaced (although with a little more legitimacy) in the Sick Kids document saying kids under a certain age shouldn't be required to wear masks because younger kids might play with discarded masks on a playground and are less likely to spread disease (which when I talk to people with kids seems very untrue considering they complain about being sick frequently). I mean, there are a couple good arguments for kids not wearing masks but worrying about kids playing with discarded masks and spreading disease that way vs. lack of space, ventilation etc. is so bizarre to me.
   

I don't know that Tam ever said that masks do more harm than good (other than creating a false sense of security).
I believe many balls were dropped with this pandemic, but let's be honest, they were learning on the fly. I give both Ford and Trudeau a pass because of this very reason.

When this first struck they were unsure how this virus was passed. Was it airborne? Was it passed from item to item? Was it just saliva? Was it passed through the eyes? They had ideas but the goal posts kept moving as more and more cases popped up.

Also, as Nik says, there were real concerns on shortages of supply.
I get that but that but she did question whether they did more harm because people would be more likely to touch their face or not adhere to distancing. I mean, maybe you could just say "remember to still distance and wash your hands and not touch your face." The hoarding issue of cloth masks, I mean wouldn't it have been better if some people wore masks early on than none, even if access would be more difficult early on?

It's a coronavirus. I think a basic assumption would be that it transmits similarly to other coronaviruses and taking the precautionary principle makes sense. It's the same thing we are seeing now with some institutions saying kids aren't able to spread the virus. Why not take the cautious approach and just assume everyone transmits until proven otherwise and take steps to mitigate? Especially now that data supports children spreading of the virus. And it just strikes me as odd in saying masks would have no effect considering that PPE clearly works against this virus and surely SOME level of protection is better than none at all. From the epidemiologists I've followed on Twitter there was a large number of them saying masks protect the other person from your own droplets etc. fairly early on in April/May. There was a ton of foot dragging. And I'm not going to just tee off on Tam, I think Yaffe & Williams have been abysmal in their messaging.

At any rate, I think we're making a mistake by opening bars and not seeing if we can mask up younger kids, reduce class sizes and just generally have a better approach in the fall because having people shoved indoors without strong measures does not bode well for winter. I hope I'm wrong.
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Offline Frycer14

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #697 on: Yesterday at 02:10:29 PM »
At any rate, I think we're making a mistake by opening bars and not seeing if we can mask up younger kids, reduce class sizes and just generally have a better approach in the fall because having people shoved indoors without strong measures does not bode well for winter. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm sure that the infection rate will go up in September. But it doesn't seem feasible to eradicate the spread- rather, the goal being to not overwhelm the health system, and it would appear 100-300? 500? cases a day in Ontario seems tolerable. Hopefully we can keep it under control and keep the extreme measures in place for the at-risk populations, regardless of cost.

Offline Nik

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #698 on: Yesterday at 07:12:00 PM »

This is a really good article, I thought, about how we shouldn't be focused too much on the idea of transmission via contaminated surfaces(while still sensibly washing our hands often and not touching our faces)

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/scourge-hygiene-theater/614599/
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Offline Bender

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #699 on: Yesterday at 09:22:00 PM »
At any rate, I think we're making a mistake by opening bars and not seeing if we can mask up younger kids, reduce class sizes and just generally have a better approach in the fall because having people shoved indoors without strong measures does not bode well for winter. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm sure that the infection rate will go up in September. But it doesn't seem feasible to eradicate the spread- rather, the goal being to not overwhelm the health system, and it would appear 100-300? 500? cases a day in Ontario seems tolerable. Hopefully we can keep it under control and keep the extreme measures in place for the at-risk populations, regardless of cost.
The flaw in that logic is that it's so far not been feasible anywhere in the world at having bars or clubs open and maintain an "acceptable" number of infections. If the virus gets away from you like it did in Melbourne you're back to lockdown. That outcome is far worse than just not allowing bar service and mitigating in children since they are the most likely group to gather. School can't stay open if COVID is circulating.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender