Author Topic: Jays Roster Discussion  (Read 51579 times)

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Offline L K

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #795 on: December 11, 2018, 06:01:03 PM »
As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now.
I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then.  ::)
In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr.
Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Thank you, so if I understand, similar to NHL in terms of roster spot limitations.  Basically just paying a guy full contract value to disappear and make way for new kids.

Is Martin far behind then?

He likely has some form of value either to the team as a player-coach or if the Jays eat salary he is still a capable catcher at a cheaper deal in a trade.

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #795 on: December 11, 2018, 06:01:03 PM »

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #796 on: December 11, 2018, 06:29:04 PM »

I'm a little surprised that they couldn't find someone to take on even a fraction of his salary but I think this is where you take that to mean that it's pretty unlikely that Tulowitzki is ever a Major League SS again or, if he is, that it's going to be a journey of him finding out he can't play the way he once could.

Either way, it's sunk money for the Jays. Give the ABs to Gurriel for now, let Bichette work his way up.
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Offline Captain Canuck

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #797 on: December 11, 2018, 07:52:42 PM »
As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now.
I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then.  ::)
In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr.
Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Thank you, so if I understand, similar to NHL in terms of roster spot limitations.  Basically just paying a guy full contract value to disappear and make way for new kids.

Is Martin far behind then?

He likely has some form of value either to the team as a player-coach or if the Jays eat salary he is still a capable catcher at a cheaper deal in a trade.

Agreed.
Honestly I'm surprised it wasn't Martin to be moved first given he only has 1 year left on his deal, you can deal him if you eat some of his salary (figure a team like Milwaukee would bite?) and Jansen looks poised to take over the starting duties. Add Maile and McGuire to the mix and it's tough to justify having a $20 million backup catcher (no disrespect to Russ).

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #798 on: December 11, 2018, 09:59:58 PM »
Can I just ask why this experiment was killed before it even started? Why not let Tulo report to spring training and perhaps build up some trade value? If he showed up at camp healthy and playing well, perhaps another team would have taken a flier on him and perhaps eaten up part of his salary.

I will say that to me this move does not seem baseball related at all. It was personal. If I had to guess I would say that Tulo was a voice of dissent within the clubhouse against the current management. I do believe Shapiro in particular shipped Tulo out of town for this reason.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #799 on: December 11, 2018, 10:08:58 PM »

Interesting that this move clearly fits in with the notion of the team you've been pushing for months. Coincidences abound.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #800 on: December 11, 2018, 10:13:22 PM »
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Andy

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #801 on: December 12, 2018, 05:18:39 AM »


I will say that to me this move does not seem baseball related at all. It was personal. If I had to guess I would say that Tulo was a voice of dissent within the clubhouse against the current management. I do believe Shapiro in particular shipped Tulo out of town for this reason.

Yep, or, as seems to be the case, the exact opposite of this.

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #802 on: December 12, 2018, 08:16:37 AM »


I will say that to me this move does not seem baseball related at all. It was personal. If I had to guess I would say that Tulo was a voice of dissent within the clubhouse against the current management. I do believe Shapiro in particular shipped Tulo out of town for this reason.

Yep, or, as seems to be the case, the exact opposite of this.
So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

Offline bustaheims

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #803 on: December 12, 2018, 08:27:01 AM »
So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

By the time he might have been able to build up enough value for another team to take on any meaningful amount of his salary, the Jays would have already had paid most of this season's salary, and he would have taken playing time away from the young guys the team wants to develop at the big league level. He hasn't played in a season and a half. It would have taken months for other teams to believe he's healthy enough to be a contributor - and that's not even considering the fact that, in his last two relatively healthy seasons, he was basically a roughly league average bat. If there are any issues with his ability to play a defensive position - there would be significant concerns, regardless of whether or not he is healthy enough to take the field in spring training. Even if he did generate some interest in spring training, the Jays would have been on the hook for basically his entire salary in any deal worth making, and, odds are against that deal materializing. Realistically, it's eat the contract now, and give Tulo a chance to catch on somewhere else, or eat the contract in the spring, and put Tulo in a much more difficult situation when it comes to finding a job.

At best, right now, his value is zero, and it's going to take a long time to build it up to anything substantially more than zero. That's time the team shouldn't be wasting on him, as the return isn't going to be anything worthwhile.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:28:35 AM by bustaheims »
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Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #804 on: December 12, 2018, 08:49:22 AM »
So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

By the time he might have been able to build up enough value for another team to take on any meaningful amount of his salary, the Jays would have already had paid most of this season's salary, and he would have taken playing time away from the young guys the team wants to develop at the big league level. He hasn't played in a season and a half. It would have taken months for other teams to believe he's healthy enough to be a contributor - and that's not even considering the fact that, in his last two relatively healthy seasons, he was basically a roughly league average bat. If there are any issues with his ability to play a defensive position - there would be significant concerns, regardless of whether or not he is healthy enough to take the field in spring training. Even if he did generate some interest in spring training, the Jays would have been on the hook for basically his entire salary in any deal worth making, and, odds are against that deal materializing. Realistically, it's eat the contract now, and give Tulo a chance to catch on somewhere else, or eat the contract in the spring, and put Tulo in a much more difficult situation when it comes to finding a job.

At best, right now, his value is zero, and it's going to take a long time to build it up to anything substantially more than zero. That's time the team shouldn't be wasting on him, as the return isn't going to be anything worthwhile.
You don't know that. And we never will because of this bone headed management.

Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #805 on: December 12, 2018, 10:47:49 AM »
So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

By the time he might have been able to build up enough value for another team to take on any meaningful amount of his salary, the Jays would have already had paid most of this season's salary, and he would have taken playing time away from the young guys the team wants to develop at the big league level. He hasn't played in a season and a half. It would have taken months for other teams to believe he's healthy enough to be a contributor - and that's not even considering the fact that, in his last two relatively healthy seasons, he was basically a roughly league average bat. If there are any issues with his ability to play a defensive position - there would be significant concerns, regardless of whether or not he is healthy enough to take the field in spring training. Even if he did generate some interest in spring training, the Jays would have been on the hook for basically his entire salary in any deal worth making, and, odds are against that deal materializing. Realistically, it's eat the contract now, and give Tulo a chance to catch on somewhere else, or eat the contract in the spring, and put Tulo in a much more difficult situation when it comes to finding a job.

At best, right now, his value is zero, and it's going to take a long time to build it up to anything substantially more than zero. That's time the team shouldn't be wasting on him, as the return isn't going to be anything worthwhile.

If I was the GM of another team, it would take half a season at the very least of strong play before I would even consider giving up anything of even remote value or take on significant money to get Tulo.

As the Jays, I'd rather give those PAs to Gurriel then hold out hope that they may be able to get a long shot prospect or save a few dollars.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 10:54:17 AM by Deebo »

Offline bustaheims

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #806 on: December 12, 2018, 10:58:28 AM »
If I was the GM of another team, it would take half a season at the very least of strong play before I would even consider giving up anything of even remote value or take on significant money to get Tulo.

As the Jays, I'd rather give those PAs to Gurriel then hold out hope that they may be able to get a long shot prospect or save a few dollars.

Exactly. He'd have to be in the lineup almost every day, produce at an above average level, and play stellar defence. That's asking a lot of someone who hasn't played in a year and a half.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #807 on: December 12, 2018, 11:07:29 AM »
Yeah, the idea of Tulowitzki "building value" with a hot spring training or start to the season is pretty far fetched. Tulowitzki hasn't played 130 games in a season since 2011. It's not a question of can he be healthy or play well, although those are still valid questions, it's about staying healthy. There's no way for him to prove that outside of being healthy for a year and you're not going to give him a year of at-bats to prove that he's healthy.

"Building value" in this context is also sort of a zero-sum game. Every at-bat you give to Tulowitzki so he can "build value" is an at-bat you're not giving to Gurriel or Travis or Morales to try and let them build value and all three of those guys are probably more likely to "build value" in a meaningful sense than Tulowitzki is. There's almost certainly more value in seeing who Gurriel is when playing every day than whatever Tulowitzki could bring if he defeats the odds and has a strong season next year.

Could Tulowitzki play well enough in a limited role that you might be able to convince a team to eat some of his salary? Maybe but why do we care about that? The Jays aren't going to need to save that money over the next two years.

So what you have here is Shapiro and co. looking honestly and soberly about Tulowitzki's future with the club, deciding in favour of playing their younger guys with real futures and doing right by Tulowitzki by giving him a chance to latch on somewhere else. If they kept Tulowitzki with the intention of not playing him much, as his level of play would probably deserve, it'd make it harder on him to bounce back when they eventually did release him.

There's probably more "value" in Shapiro having the reputation among agents that he does with Tulo's agent than any sort of minor prospect Tulowitzki could have brought in if he was healthy.
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Offline L K

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #808 on: December 12, 2018, 11:33:30 AM »
Tulo's value wouldn't be boosted by a good spring training.  His injury issues and reputation as being a soft player are what will hold him back, on top of being extremely expensive.  His bat fell off quite a bit before his trade to Toronto.  He had a few really important hits for the organization but overall was just not a great acquisition.  We wouldn't have received much of value for him in a trade even if we convinced someone to take him on and the benefit of Gurriel getting playing time or giving Travis an opportunity to perform up until his eventual replacement when Guerrero/Bichette/Biggio push into the Majors is more valuable in terms of building a trade asset.

This is a good move by the organization.

Offline Dappleganger

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #809 on: December 12, 2018, 12:27:42 PM »
Tulo's value wouldn't be boosted by a good spring training.  His injury issues and reputation as being a soft player are what will hold him back, on top of being extremely expensive.  His bat fell off quite a bit before his trade to Toronto.  He had a few really important hits for the organization but overall was just not a great acquisition.  We wouldn't have received much of value for him in a trade even if we convinced someone to take him on and the benefit of Gurriel getting playing time or giving Travis an opportunity to perform up until his eventual replacement when Guerrero/Bichette/Biggio push into the Majors is more valuable in terms of building a trade asset.

This is a good move by the organization.

In 87 games before the trade to Toronto, Tulo was batting .300, was on pace for 22 home runs and 99 rbi and had a .818 OPS. The year previous he had an OPS over 1.000. Not sure where that narrative comes from.

His bat fell off after the trade to Toronto, but I'm not sure anyone could have predicted that. His 24 home runs and 79 rbi in 131 games in 2016 weren't too bad to be honest. 

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #809 on: December 12, 2018, 12:27:42 PM »