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Messages - Chris

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1
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Coach Mike Babcock
« on: August 15, 2019, 02:53:18 PM »
I know people were griping about Matthews' ice time for game 7, but weren't the shift counts about the same between Tavares and Matthews? The only reason his minutes came out shorter were Matthews' shift lengths were tighter.
I recall someone posting stats that confirmed this. I also remember watching game 7 and thinking that Matthews was often the first to leave the ice on his line. Made me wonder if he was dealing with some kind of nagging injury. Maybe those screws in his leg were bothering him.

2
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 22, 2019, 03:24:57 PM »
I really have never understood the "that's more money than I make so therefore he should be grateful and just accept less" argument. 

He's not working in your industry. He's not competing for a job against a Starbucks barista or most lawyers or doctors etc. 

If you went to your job tomorrow and everyone else was making 5 million and you were making 1, you would be pissed off.
If I went to my job tomorrow and found out I was now making a million dollars a year, I wouldn't ask any questions. But that's not what we're talking about here. It's not like Matthews is making 11.5 and Marner will be getting 2.3 (the equivalent of your above ratio). By any measure, Marner is going to be paid near the top of his profession regardless of what offer he signs.

My point was simply that I'm not going to get worked up about a player getting "cheated" out of his perceived worth when (1) that player has already at age 22 made more money than most will make in their life (for playing a game), and (2) that player is going to be paid near the top of his profession on his next contract.

We really don't know anything about the nature of the negotiations so I'll reserve judgement until a contract is signed.

3
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 22, 2019, 10:42:52 AM »

I hesitate to keep talking about this because it's so tragically stupid but isn't the idea behind someone being spoiled that they've been given everything without earning it so they don't appreciate things?

If so, what has Marner been given? For three years he's produced like a first liner and been paid like a 4th line scrub because of the league's rookie wage scale. Even if you want to think that Marner not having signed yet reveals something negative about his character, and again that notion is worthy of ridicule, the idea that he's "spoiled" doesn't fit in the least.
Poor guy has only earned about $2.7 mil (from capfriendly) in his first 3 years. That's more than a lot of people make in their whole working life.

No matter what contract he signs, he's going to have more money than he'll know what to do with (unless he's incredibly stupid).

4
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 21, 2019, 05:23:13 PM »
Everything that's happening between Marner and the Leafs is a 'part of the current system'. If what Marner is doing means he's spoiled, than what the Leafs are doing is miserly. Neither of course are actually true, they're both negotiating in fair and reasonable ways as in accordance to the confines of the system they are a part of.
Well, we don't know what the Leafs are offering (nor what Marner is asking). However, the Leafs are constrained by the cap. It sounds like they can probably spend about $10 million or so on Marner as things stand now. Is that a miserly offer if that is what is on the table? I mean, sure they could give him the moon but then they have to start trimming other pieces like Hyman or Johnsson or Kapanen. So Marner gets what he wants but the team is worse. That sounds a bit spoiled to me but what do I know

5
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 21, 2019, 02:27:43 PM »
It absolutely matters insofar as it will inform what players think their actual value is and their willingness to accept offers that are far below it. Likewise, it matters in as much as it means that what a player is offered is in no way a legitimate reflection of their actual worth.

And, related to what I was saying a while back to princedpw, this is why the salary structure of the league isn't the be all and end all when it comes to contract negotiations. There are two numbers being grappled with here, a number spat out by a price fixing cabal and a number that reflects a more genuine sense of a player's value. To what extent a player is going to hew more to one or the other is entirely up to that player when seeking his compensation. Trying to get a handle on "the market" without taking that reality into account is almost certainly going to lead to bad attempts at guessing what players sign for.

So by all means say that Marner's compensation is going to be affected by the cap because that's just a fact but to say that what teams are able to offer him under the cap provides a realistic measurement of his worth(and therefore he's "spoiled" if he doesn't accept whatever number the Leafs decide that is) just doesn't add up.

It adds up unless your only intent is to argue and make things into something they're not.

Marner can think he's worth any amount but unless someone is willing to pay him that amount, he isn't worth it under the current system. It's really quite simple, no matter how you spin it.

6
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 21, 2019, 02:04:22 PM »
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market.

And the NHL has specifically set up a system that artificially limits compensation. What dictates a player's salary is not what a team would be willing to pay him but how they think he fits into a salary structure wherein compensation dollars are limited from team to team(Edit: And, of course, other teams aren't just offering Marner cash but are forced to offer the Leafs draft picks as well if he signs with them, further depressing his "value").

There's a reason why price fixing monopolies are generally seen to be antithetical to free market capitalism and it's precisely this reason.

Doesn't matter. It is what it is, and in the current system Marner is worth what the Leafs or another team offer.

The current system specifies that if another team signs Marner to an offer sheet, they must provide compensation. That is the system.

You don't like the system, you want to change the system - fine, but that's another discussion. It doesn't matter if Marner would be "worth" $15 million a year (or more) in a system with no salary cap and unrestricted free agency instead of restricted free agency + salary cap.

Either Marner will sign for what the Leafs offer, or they'll up their offer. In any case we will eventually know what he is worth in the marketplace where he resides. No other universe matters.

7
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 21, 2019, 01:03:55 PM »
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him.

The idea that something is worth what someone else is willing to pay is really only true in a free market. If the NHL is engaged in price-fixing when it comes to salaries via compensation and the cap, and they absolutely are, then what someone is willing to pay doesn't necessarily really reflect someone's worth.
Sure it does. The NHL, warts and all, is Marner's market. Let him go out into the "real" world and see if he can find someone to pay him $11 or $12 million for whatever skill set he might have other than hockey. Or maybe someone in Europe or Russia will pay him more than he can get in the NHL.

If the Leafs are offering him $10.5 mil for 8 years (or whatever their current/best offer is) and no one else is coming forward with a better offer, that's what he is worth.


8
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 21, 2019, 11:43:08 AM »
Marner has the skill and track record to make significantly much more than $6.5 million playing in a league that generates revenue, on a yearly basis, in the billions, and he's a spoiled brat because he won't accept a salary that's far, far below what he's generally worth? Man, people confound me..
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him. And if some of the rumored amounts the Leafs have offered have been true and he won't accept them...then maybe spoiled brat is an accurate description.

I'm just referring to the idea that he should sign for 6.5 million over 7-8 years, otherwise he's a spoiled brat.
Got it! No argument on that point.

9
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: July 21, 2019, 11:33:39 AM »
Marner has the skill and track record to make significantly much more than $6.5 million playing in a league that generates revenue, on a yearly basis, in the billions, and he's a spoiled brat because he won't accept a salary that's far, far below what he's generally worth? Man, people confound me..
True, but ultimately he's worth what someone is willing to pay him. And if some of the rumored amounts the Leafs have offered have been true and he won't accept them...then maybe spoiled brat is an accurate description.

10
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Media Thread
« on: July 08, 2019, 05:04:59 PM »
I'm sure Matthews would prefer to play with Nylander versus Kapanen - who wouldn't? For all his speed, Kapanen is nowhere near the passer or playmaker that Nylander is.

However, I doubt Matthews ever told Simmons that. He's just stating something that is obvious to anyone who has watched the Leafs.

11
 I'd really like to replace Ceci with Gardiner if it is at all possible - assuming Gardiner's back is not going to be a recurring problem. Maybe he takes a big discount to stay in Toronto for a short term deal. Otherwise, I'm pretty impressed by what Dubas has been able to achieve the last couple of weeks. He certainly didn't play it safe.

Regarding Kadri...loved him as a Leaf but he severely hurt the team the past 2 springs. I know Dubas said that had nothing to do with the decision to trade him, but not sure I completely buy that (would anyone expect him to say otherwise?) At the least, it had to make it easier to let him go.

12
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: June 28, 2019, 06:22:12 PM »
So IF Marner were to sign an offer sheet and leave, how would he be received when that team comes to Toronto for the first time? Would it be like Tavares on Long Island? Do Leaf fans have it in them to behave that way?

Honestly who cares? I mean I guess you do but I really donít. How a bunch of people I donít know will react to a player who signed a contract with another team? What does it matter?
I don't care that you don't care, but thanks for your precious response.

13
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: June 28, 2019, 10:20:21 AM »
So IF Marner were to sign an offer sheet and leave, how would he be received when that team comes to Toronto for the first time? Would it be like Tavares on Long Island? Do Leaf fans have it in them to behave that way?

As for the question of why fans care...my opinion, once you start talking about earning 8 or 9 million a year, the extra 2-4 really makes no difference in your life. You and your kids will be set for life and will never have to worry about money. But that extra 2-4 million tacked onto a few contracts (Matthews and potentially Marner) can really have a negative impact on the ability of management to put together a strong supporting cast. I don't think it's very likely that a team that consists of Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander and a scrub defense is going to win a Cup, unless ALL the breaks go their way one year.

14
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: June 25, 2019, 03:24:34 PM »
$13 or $14M for Marner? I'll believe it when I see it. If it comes to that, hopefully we can sign someone else (like Panarin) for a more reasonable amount and use the extra for another position of need (we do need a defense, after all). And the picks will be icing on the cake.

The big risk is that we let Marner go and aren't able to sign a really good player to take his spot.

In this hypothetical world, if Marner signs for $13M, Panarin or equivalent wonít be signing for $9M.

Maybe not, but Panarin+4 first rounders > Marner

15
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Mitch Marner: what now?
« on: June 25, 2019, 02:53:45 PM »
$13 or $14M for Marner? I'll believe it when I see it. If it comes to that, hopefully we can sign someone else (like Panarin) for a more reasonable amount and use the extra for another position of need (we do need a defense, after all). And the picks will be icing on the cake.

The big risk is that we let Marner go and aren't able to sign a really good player to take his spot.

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