Post by: Highlander on March 03, 2020, 01:10:23 PM
From Dr. Robb:
Date: February 26, 2020 at 2:35:50 PM EST
Subject: What I am doing for the upcoming COVID-19 (coronavirus) pandemic.
When I was a professor of pathology at the University of California San Diego, I was one of the first molecular virologists in the world to work on coronaviruses (the 1970s). I was the first to demonstrate the number of genes the virus contained. Since then, I have kept up with the coronavirus field and its multiple clinical transfers into the human population (e.g., SARS, MERS), from different animal sources.
The current projections for its expansion in the US are only probable, due to continued insufficient worldwide data, but it is most likely to be widespread in the US by mid to late March and April.
Here is what I have done and the precautions that I take and will take. These are the same precautions I currently use during our influenza seasons, except for the mask and gloves.:
1) NO HANDSHAKING! Use a fist bump, slight bow, elbow bump, etc.
2) Use ONLY your knuckle to touch light switches. elevator buttons, etc.. Lift the gasoline dispenser with a paper towel or use a disposable glove.
3) Open doors with your closed fist or hip – do not grasp the handle with your hand, unless there is no other way to open the door. Especially important on bathroom and post office/commercial doors.
4) Use disinfectant wipes at the stores when they are available, including wiping the handle and child seat in grocery carts.
5) Wash your hands with soap for 10-20 seconds and/or use a greater than 60% alcohol-based hand sanitizer whenever you return home from ANY activity that involves locations where other people have been.
6) Keep a bottle of sanitizer available at each of your home’s entrances. AND in your car for use after getting gas or touching other contaminated objects when you can’t immediately wash your hands.
7) If possible, cough or sneeze into a disposable tissue and discard. Use your elbow only if you have to. The clothing on your elbow will contain infectious virus that can be passed on for up to a week or more!
What I have stocked in preparation for the pandemic spread to the US:
1) Latex or nitrile latex disposable gloves for use when going shopping, using the gasoline pump, and all other outside activity when you come in contact with contaminated areas.
Note: This virus is spread in large droplets by coughing and sneezing. This means that the air will not infect you! BUT all the surfaces where these droplets land are infectious for about a week on average – everything that is associated with infected people will be contaminated and potentially infectious. The virus is on surfaces and you will not be infected unless your unprotected face is directly coughed or sneezed upon. This virus only has cell receptors for lung cells (it only infects your lungs) The only way for the virus to infect you is through your nose or mouth via your hands or an infected cough or sneeze onto or into your nose or mouth.
2) Stock up now with disposable surgical masks and use them to prevent you from touching your nose and/or mouth (We touch our nose/mouth 90X/day without knowing it!). This is the only way this virus can infect you – it is lung-specific. The mask will not prevent the virus in a direct sneeze from getting into your nose or mouth – it is only to keep you from touching your nose or mouth.
3) Stock up now with hand sanitizers and latex/nitrile gloves (get the appropriate sizes for your family). The hand sanitizers must be alcohol-based and greater than 60% alcohol to be effective.
4) Stock up now with zinc lozenges. These lozenges have been proven to be effective in blocking coronavirus (and most other viruses) from multiplying in your throat and nasopharynx. Use as directed several times each day when you begin to feel ANY “cold-like” symptoms beginning. It is best to lie down and let the lozenge dissolve in the back of your throat and nasopharynx. Cold-Eeze lozenges is one brand available, but there are other brands available.
I, as many others do, hope that this pandemic will be reasonably contained, BUT I personally do not think it will be. Humans have never seen this snake-associated virus before and have no internal defense against it. Tremendous worldwide efforts are being made to understand the molecular and clinical virology of this virus. Unbelievable molecular knowledge about the genomics, structure, and virulence of this virus has already been achieved. BUT, there will be NO drugs or vaccines available this year to protect us or limit the infection within us. Only symptomatic support is available.
I hope these personal thoughts will be helpful during this potentially catastrophic pandemic. You are welcome to share this email. Good luck to all of us!
Jim
James Robb, MD FCAP
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 07, 2020, 06:29:14 PM
I use it after touching doorknobs, before touching food (when I’m out), etc. Using it prudently and not overdoing it will serve one very well. Of course, washing the hands is imperative for anyone to do but all too often, people (especially males) who’ve used the bathrooms don’t always wash them properly or retouch door handles, etc. My mother always makes it a point to have several tissues handy in case she needs to use one.
I, after exiting a public washroom, always hand sanitize even after washing my hands. Just a precaution.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 07, 2020, 06:29:47 PM
Quercitin, fortifying the immune system, Vit C, etc., The battle against the Coronavirus...
Big Pharma claims a drug derived from quercetin (from apples, garlic, onions & other plants) will be effective for coronavirus. BTW it's available in health stores. A made-in-Canada solution to the coronavirus outbreak? - https://t.co/zG0jPcV4vN https://t.co/L8ZHAd7Hyg
— Zoltan P. Rona (@drzoltanrona) February 29, 2020
Here is the article Dr. Rona is referring to:
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-made-in-canada-solution-to-the-coronavirus-outbreak/ (https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-made-in-canada-solution-to-the-coronavirus-outbreak/)
How Vitamin C is benefitting the fight against infection:
Vitamin C gets a welcome boost for corona virus treatments in China. The rest of the world needs to realize the same benefits. https://t.co/ksFmlOrk2x
— Zoltan P. Rona (@drzoltanrona) February 24, 2020
Proper nutrients and nutrition is essential to fortify our immune systems:
Get some real protection and treatment that works. Coronavirus Protection and Treatment: Top 10 Natural Remedies https://t.co/ygg5RDzSQf
— Zoltan P. Rona (@drzoltanrona) February 24, 2020
Article written by Dr. Rona:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/coronavirus-protection-and-treatment-top-10-natural-remedies/amp/?__twitter_impression=true (https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/coronavirus-protection-and-treatment-top-10-natural-remedies/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on March 07, 2020, 06:37:38 PM
I take 6000mg of vitamin C daily, year round and more if I'm feeling the least bit sick.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 07, 2020, 06:59:34 PM
https://realfarmacy.com/treat-coronavirus-without-drugs/ (https://realfarmacy.com/treat-coronavirus-without-drugs/)
Vitamin C high dosages can cause what is called bowel intolerance. This approach may not be for everyone.
Why Vitamin C? According to The Linus Pauling Institute, Vitamin C has been known to kill cancer cells in a Petri dish. It has also been known to work in synergy with chemotherapy (long disputed by conventional oncologists).
How is this so? There was a study done by a lone researcher that debunked the chemo w/vit C balance. However, after that one study, there emerged several others that proved quite the opposite. Unfortunately, in failing to uplift the state of the patient, most oncologists are still adhering to the first study.
Uplifting the state of the patient? That’s exactly what it means, striving to strike a balance between drug treatment (chemo, etc.) and nutritional support.
Naturopathic Oncology is a part of treatment found at CTCA (Cancer Treatment Centers if America) attempts to do just that — mind, body, & spirit. Conventional or other means to treat disease, a dietary regimen, plus the usage of medicinal herbs to uplift the state of the patient, strengthen the immune system, and prevent side effects whenever possible. That is the proper approach to any disease — complete, multi-faceted, and individualized.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 07, 2020, 07:25:30 PM
Finally a good news, happy report about the dreaded, over-hyped and paranoia driven Carona virus. Enjoy your planned vacations worry free. https://t.co/d7yQKQ9Emx
— Zoltan P. Rona (@drzoltanrona) March 5, 2020
Post by: Bender on March 08, 2020, 12:31:12 PM
Welcome news indeed.This is so insanely circumstantial.Finally a good news, happy report about the dreaded, over-hyped and paranoia driven Carona virus. Enjoy your planned vacations worry free. https://t.co/d7yQKQ9Emx
— Zoltan P. Rona (@drzoltanrona) March 5, 2020
Post by: Bullfrog on March 08, 2020, 12:50:38 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2020, 12:53:35 PM
good lord, people. Vitamin C will not prevent or treat the coronavirus. Your body needs a certain amount; after that, you're literally pissing money down the drain.
What about silver? That'll help right?
(https://d1hfln2sfez66z.cloudfront.net/03-08-2020/t_a0483157abf34ff1aaa08d5eb29f0aab_name_04BCFE04B1684BA9A9727BEAF9E044E2.jpg)
Post by: Bill_Berg on March 08, 2020, 01:24:16 PM
good lord, people. Vitamin C will not prevent or treat the coronavirus. Your body needs a certain amount; after that, you're literally pissing money down the drain.
What about silver? That'll help right?
(https://d1hfln2sfez66z.cloudfront.net/03-08-2020/t_a0483157abf34ff1aaa08d5eb29f0aab_name_04BCFE04B1684BA9A9727BEAF9E044E2.jpg)
Good for the prevention of lycanthropy.
Post by: Highlander on March 08, 2020, 01:51:17 PM
If one of us recommends Vitamin C, then this is good, do you own due diligence before you act (or ridicule). It only makes sense to take a great Vitamin C supplement, as it is proven to bolster immune systems. When I suggest NAC, instead of ridicule, look at it, do your due diligence and make your own informed decisions. I am open to all suggestions, as I will investigate all claims and make my own decisions. Let's help each other instead of playing games of one-upmanship.
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 08, 2020, 02:24:23 PM
good lord, people. Vitamin C will not prevent or treat the coronavirus. Your body needs a certain amount; after that, you're literally pissing money down the drain.
So your body can only absorb so much vitamin c in a day. That is a fact. Your body will get rid of the excess through urine. That statement is correct.
This may be semantics, but vitamin C will promote a healthy immune system. A healthy immune system will help your body fight off viruses. You'll still feel the effects of the virus, it won't prevent it, but your body's immune system will be the thing that needs to fight off the virus, so having a healthy immune system will help.
Post by: Frycer14 on March 08, 2020, 02:34:18 PM
Let's help each other instead of playing games of one-upmanship.
I can't disagree more. No one is served by half baked theories by "experts" and naturopathic nonsense; in fact, it creates more confusion and dilutes proper advice.
Post by: Highlander on March 08, 2020, 03:59:21 PM
Let's help each other instead of playing games of one-upmanship.
I can't disagree more. No one is served by half baked theories by "experts" and naturopathic nonsense; in fact, it creates more confusion and dilutes proper advice.
Fryer14, who makes who and who an expert? What I am saying is we can all put forth our views without ridicule. Most Big Pharma has a vested interest in keeping natural cures under wrap.
I could say lima beans helped my sister combat cancer, rather than say nonsense, if you want to test the suggestion then google it and do your research. People on this board should have the right to say what they think and if you want to check it out check it out. We are just trying to help each other.
You could say my claims to NAC are nonsense, did you know about NAC before? All I have said is what it has done for me. Did I claim it would ward off coronavirus? No, of course not. I said if anyone is interested do your own due diligence rather than claiming I am a witch, without any research/effort on your part.
Nothing can combat the coronavirus except your own immune system, so the idea is to bolster your natural defences to the maximum. If Vitamin C and NAC help that then great, if your research proves different don't use it. We can't scare of each other from making suggestions that may help.
Another thing you may want to check out is TUDCA, not sure about immune function but is great for the liver. Ok, lets test my theory. Check out whatever is suggested instead of trying to sound like any of us has all the answers. I certainly don't.
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 08, 2020, 04:06:33 PM
I really think everyone here has the best intentions and no one should be ridiculed for trying to help. We are all going through this together. This virus is the great leveller, it doesn't matter what your background or social status is, its going to touch rich and poor all the same.
If one of us recommends Vitamin C, then this is good, do you own due diligence before you act (or ridicule). It only makes sense to take a great Vitamin C supplement, as it is proven to bolster immune systems. When I suggest NAC, instead of ridicule, look at it, do your due diligence and make your own informed decisions. I am open to all suggestions, as I will investigate all claims and make my own decisions. Let's help each other instead of playing games of one-upmanship.
Last time I checked, this virus had a fatality rate of 3.4%. It's a little higher than what was expected which was 1%. Unless those numbers go up, I think great leveller might be a bit over the top. S.A.R.S had a higher fatality rate, which I think was around 10%
I mean if this was Ebola with a longer gestation period then I would be more scared of it.
As of right now, from what I have read, the reason this is dangerous is because it is new and that means it can spread quickly because nobody has a natural defense for it. However it isn't anything that should push a healthy immune system over it's limits. The greatest risk are to those with weakened immune systems. Also it is cross species which presents some other challenges when trying to contain it.
Post by: Nik on March 08, 2020, 05:51:20 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 08, 2020, 06:29:27 PM
No one is going to individualize a specific plan for each one of us which is why we need to take charge of our health for we know how we feel, and what is best for us to do.
Our immune system is key. Again, an older person or a very young one, an immune-suppressed individual are at higher risk of disease and viruses. That is common knowledge to know that our bodies/cells aren’t as adept at an older age in compared to when we were younger. It also makes practical sense to keep fortifying your health so that when you do get sick (from colds, etc.) it won’t be so overwhelming in the first place.
I happen to know this for a fact. There was a time when I caught colds, coughs, etc. easily, long before I ever went to an Integrative MD.
For the record, Dr. Rona has a practice in Thornhill, is an MD (graduated from Medical School), has been in practice for over 30+ years, has a M.Sc. in Nutritional Biochemistry. I credit him for helping me to navigate my autoimmune condition and continue to do so.
My family physician whom I still go to? Well, she’s nice and empathetic but she doesn’t know too much regarding that field.
No one is advocating that Vitamin C or other nutritional supplementations are the be all or end all. Just a part of a health program in conjunction with whatever other preventive measures the individual is undergoing.
When it comes to times like these with this Coronavirus, individuals like me have to be very careful in not catching anything serious. My mother & I are taking precautions for ourselves.
Post by: Nik on March 08, 2020, 07:07:36 PM
No one ever said snake oil didn't sell.
Personally, my preparations for the virus are largely hoarding related. Laugh if you want but I'm going to be the pudding cup king of our post-apocalyptic wasteland.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 08, 2020, 07:16:00 PM
No one ever said snake oil didn't sell.
Personally, my preparations for the virus are largely hoarding related. Laugh if you want but I'm going to be the pudding cup king of our post-apocalyptic wasteland.
Right. Oh by the way, all that sugar is bad for your health. That’s snake oil for better health to you.
Post by: Nik on March 08, 2020, 07:21:37 PM
Consuming the things you're hoarding is entry level piker mentality.
These are commodities to be bartered with. Mainly for fuel from Lord Humungous, then use the leftover for whoever corners the market in human trafficking to put together a post-apocalyptic version of the Leafs. My hunch is I can get Nylander for two snack-pack Butterscotch, Ceci for a half empty store brand fat free chocolate.
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 08, 2020, 08:59:10 PM
Consuming the things you're hoarding is entry level piker mentality.
These are commodities to be bartered with. Mainly for fuel from Lord Humungous, then use the leftover for whoever corners the market in human trafficking to put together a post-apocalyptic version of the Leafs. My hunch is I can get Nylander for two snack-pack Butterscotch, Ceci for a half empty store brand fat free chocolate.
Where do I apply to be the guitarist that rides on the car next to the shooting flames during high speed car chases? I have my own guitar and face paint.
Post by: Bender on March 08, 2020, 09:23:02 PM
I really think everyone here has the best intentions and no one should be ridiculed for trying to help. We are all going through this together. This virus is the great leveller, it doesn't matter what your background or social status is, its going to touch rich and poor all the same.How is taking something with a grain of salt because something is entirely unsubstantiated cheapen the discussion or anything of that sort? Personally I think it's morally irresponsible to make unsubstantiated health claims on a message board, period, and if you can't take the skepticism coming, which comes from a place generally of good faith, then I really don't know what to tell you or anyone else who can't take even the most basic level of scrutiny for making that claim.
If one of us recommends Vitamin C, then this is good, do you own due diligence before you act (or ridicule). It only makes sense to take a great Vitamin C supplement, as it is proven to bolster immune systems. When I suggest NAC, instead of ridicule, look at it, do your due diligence and make your own informed decisions. I am open to all suggestions, as I will investigate all claims and make my own decisions. Let's help each other instead of playing games of one-upmanship.
In closing, an extraordinary claim requires an extraordinary level of evidence. The onus is on the person making the claim to give good evidence from vetted sources before making the claim. People have the right to scrutinize it. And as an aside, as a kid I used to go to a homeopathic doctor because my mom was distrustful of normal doctors. I have a condition where if I don't treat my lungs properly when catching a cold I am almost guaranteed bronchitis. For years I was given a tincture and was told it would work and when it inevitably failed I would be taken to emerg and put on an oxygen mask with Ventolin. Guess what, it worked. Looking back at that I am pretty livid at how irresponsible that level of care I received from that homeopathic doctor was because I was supposed to trust a treatment that didn't follow the best practices at the time. So forgive me for not being ok with something that has circumstantial evidence at best surrounding its efficacy. I've been close to death because of that kind of thing.
Post by: Hobbes on March 08, 2020, 11:17:55 PM
By all means pump yourself full of anything you want, but don't ignore the overwhelming majority of the *real* experts...you know, the ones who work for the CDC and WHO and who are the front line researchers.
Post by: princedpw on March 09, 2020, 02:16:45 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-face-masks.html
In general, if someone is promulgating incorrect medical information, it is important to speak up and let people know it is incorrect. Incorrect information about medicine leads to things like people not getting vaccinated and then getting the flu or measles and dying. Of course, when correcting misinformation, we don’t have to be a$$holes.
Post by: Hobbes on March 09, 2020, 07:48:46 AM
WHO official suggestions for the best means of protecting yourself (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public)
CDC (Center for Disease Control...the ones who are the real experts) suggestions on protection (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/prevention-treatment.html)
Health Canada (Gov.ca) advice on preparedness (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/being-prepared.html) and also their recommendations on protection (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/prevention-risks.html)
WHO "Mythbusters"
list of suggestions floating around out there that are of no known benefit for protecting yourself (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters)
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 09:36:21 AM
I don't think anyone would care if someone came in here and said "I eat 5 bananas a day and I feel great! I think they're the key to good health" because that sort of thing is easy enough to take or leave. I think what rubs some people the wrong way is trying to add the veneer of authority to it with second hand medical endorsements or trying to ascribe specific health benefits to products without medical education or evidence.
Like, as a for instance, I've heard lots of people say that taking vitamin supplements essentially does nothing for you that a balanced diet with a lot of nutrient rich food wouldn't already do. Despite that, because I was raised in kind of a hippy-ish household, I take a daily multi-vitamin. I like taking something that I at least think may help with my health.
But I'd never say, you know, I'm in pretty good health generally so the vitamin must be working or, you know, that it healed me of a specific condition because I don't have the first idea if that's true or not.
Post by: bustaheims on March 09, 2020, 10:10:34 AM
I don't think anyone would care if someone came in here and said "I eat 5 bananas a day and I feel great! I think they're the key to good health" because that sort of thing is easy enough to take or leave. I think what rubs some people the wrong way is trying to add the veneer of authority to it with second hand medical endorsements or trying to ascribe specific health benefits to products without medical education or evidence.
Like, as a for instance, I've heard lots of people say that taking vitamin supplements essentially does nothing for you that a balanced diet with a lot of nutrient rich food wouldn't already do. Despite that, because I was raised in kind of a hippy-ish household, I take a daily multi-vitamin. I like taking something that I at least think may help with my health.
But I'd never say, you know, I'm in pretty good health generally so the vitamin must be working or, you know, that it healed me of a specific condition because I don't have the first idea if that's true or not.
Agreed. There's nothing wrong with advocating for supplements as something that may or may not improve your health. As long as you're not taking too much of any particular substance, on their own, they're unlikely to have a significant negative impact on you.
The problem is the spread of disinformation that comes with situations like this. Can vitamin C improve your health and strengthen your immune system? Sure. Will it have a significant impact on your immunity or ability to fight this particular virus? No.
The best thing we can do is stick to spreading facts that comes from organizations like the WHO, the CDC, and Health Canada, and not signal boost those that comes from less reliable sources.
Post by: Bullfrog on March 09, 2020, 10:13:48 AM
Ordinary people do not need masks and should not be buying masks. Doing so will deplete the supply of masks, which are needed by healthcare professionals.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-face-masks.html
In general, if someone is promulgating incorrect medical information, it is important to speak up and let people know it is incorrect. Incorrect information about medicine leads to things like people not getting vaccinated and then getting the flu or measles and dying. Of course, when correcting misinformation, we don’t have to be a$$holes.
I mostly agree with you, but I do feel we need to be a bit more assertive in our defense of actual science. While it's easy for some to say "this advice is harmless", it's demonstrably NOT harmless. Many people will eschew actual effective treatments because so-and-so told them that megadoses of vitamin C will prevent, cure, or treat a virus. This doesn't just harm this person; it harms everyone else who is affected and/or infected by their virus due to misguided or flat out ignorant "advice."
If Nik wants to waste $8 a month on a multivitamin, that's harmless (except for the danger of him getting too much iron or other minerals).
But saying, "I haven't had a cold in three years because of mega vitamin-D doses" can certainly be harmful.
Post by: Bullfrog on March 09, 2020, 10:15:17 AM
good lord, people. Vitamin C will not prevent or treat the coronavirus. Your body needs a certain amount; after that, you're literally pissing money down the drain.
What about silver? That'll help right?
(https://d1hfln2sfez66z.cloudfront.net/03-08-2020/t_a0483157abf34ff1aaa08d5eb29f0aab_name_04BCFE04B1684BA9A9727BEAF9E044E2.jpg)
Only if directly injected into the carotid artery.
Post by: Hobbes on March 09, 2020, 10:30:12 AM
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 10:46:01 AM
If Nik wants to waste $8 a month on a multivitamin, that's harmless (except for the danger of him getting too much iron or other minerals).
How dare you.
https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(14)00921-0 (https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(14)00921-0)
Post by: Coco-puffs on March 09, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
BREAKING: A D.C. priest has Coronavirus. He offered communion and shook hands with more than 500 worshippers last week and on February 24th. All worshippers who visited the Christ Church in Georgetown must self-quarantine. Church is cancelled for the first time since the 1800's
— Sam Sweeney (@SweeneyABC) March 9, 2020
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 09, 2020, 03:23:34 PM
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
Vitamins and natural products in general have never killed people except in certain cases compared to the number of people who die from medication complications in hospitals (and that is a well-known fact).
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages (https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages)
Also, I’d like to remind you that the FDA has never approved of a single natural product. They are stacked with former Pharma executives who march to each other’s beat. The FDA was originally set up by pharmaceuticals to push their own interests.
In Ontario, under the premiership of the David Peterson government, then health minister Monte Kwinter passed legislation that to this day stands:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/ (https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/)
The incredible naïveté of some of you people on this board is mind boggling. It’s pretty obvious none of you know next to nothing about the history of medicine, pharmaceuticals, herbal medicine, the struggles some doctors went through in helping their patients achieve better health vs medical boards, mistreatment of women by mainstream medicine (from the past), etc., etc.
I know what I’m doing with my health. While it still isn’t where it should be and may never be, it’s helping me cope with whatever symptoms I have to keep me alive and to be able to enjoy Leafs hockey. 🙂
Natural/integrative medical modalities have saved my life and I continue to stand by it. While I am currently under no prescribed medications, I understand that they too can be life-saving.
Once again, let me reiterate that no one is advocating people throw out their medicines, but if there is a way to a 50-50 approach or even greater, then all the better for patient outcome. Medications all have side-defects, it practically comes with the territory and there really isn’t much one can do about some greater and some minor, and taking them whatever they may be can cause long-term organ and general health damage to cells.
Many doctors privately believe herbs are better than drugs, just as effective in the longer term. Herbs have been around for thousands of years, long before pharmaceuticals were ever invented.
Everything has it’s risks —do not self-medicate not even for natural products, always seek out the advice of a healthcare practitioner — which is why a pragmatic, practical, and realistic approach for one’s health is truly the best advice.
Let’s face it, nutrition and health & wellness have become the lexicon on everyone’s lips. It runs the gamut from health professionals to exercise & wellness experts.
What some of us may not know is that many of those in the natural medicine field were long endorsing the usage of supplementation in it’s various forms, healthy eating habits, body/mind de stressing techniques, etcetera, etcetera, way before anyone had ever heard of it en masse. That’s who we have to thank long before the science behind it.
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2020, 03:29:09 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 09, 2020, 03:37:34 PM
Hockey Fan is right on, we can discount Hockey Fan or myself or other posters as this is SM. Fact of the matter if I read correctly is Hockey Fan has invested in herself, her time, her self education, in order to have a better life for herself. This is worth something. For myself much the same, years and years of educating myself and then to be discarded as a "snake oil salesman", what a laugh. I have a lot of other fish to fry right now.
Thank you, Highlander. I appreciate it. 🙂
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 04:04:20 PM
For myself much the same, years and years of educating myself and then to be discarded as a "snake oil salesman", what a laugh.
I don't think anyone accused you of selling the snake oil. In the immortal words of the great philosopher Dr. Shawn Carter, they're hustlers, you're customers.
Post by: Bullfrog on March 09, 2020, 04:40:36 PM
I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
....
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
Post by: bustaheims on March 09, 2020, 05:02:38 PM
I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
....
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
And, hopefully, that primary care physician is a fully licensed medical doctor, with the Doctorate of Medicine to confirm that status. The overwhelming majority of naturopath simply have not had the kind of education required to be dispensing advice when it relates to such abnormally high amounts of vitamins, minerals, or any other substance.
Post by: Bates on March 09, 2020, 05:23:50 PM
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 09, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
I have another offer to be the guy who runs the farm where your not really sure if they are good or bad but they offer you food so you play it out and hope for the best.
Post by: bustaheims on March 09, 2020, 05:51:46 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?
A stiff drink or three? I wouldn’t get too concerned by it right now. Drops like this usually rebound once the panic subsides.
Post by: Stebro on March 09, 2020, 05:51:58 PM
Post by: Frank E on March 09, 2020, 05:59:56 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?
A stiff drink or three? I wouldn’t get too concerned by it right now. Drops like this usually rebound once the panic subsides.
I'm not even looking at my stuff right now...it's painful.
It's true that there is a typically very quick bounce back once things normalize, but there is also some suggestion that we were due for a correction, and therefore it might not bounce back to the way things were a month ago.
Post by: Stebro on March 09, 2020, 06:02:42 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?I'm in the same situation, I would say enjoy the simple things in life, be out in the nature, hang out with people that you like and put your focuse on something else.
Post by: Arn on March 09, 2020, 06:12:28 PM
The entire country of Italy will be in quarantee now...
An interesting, scary twitter thread from within a hospital in Italy worth reading:
1/ I may be repeating myself, but I want to fight this sense of security that I see outside of the epicenters, as if nothing was going to happen "here". The media in Europe are reassuring, politicians are reassuring, while there's little to be reassured of. #COVID19 #coronavirus
— Silvia Stringhini (@silviast9) March 9, 2020
We’re beginning to see cases here in Ireland, northern and republic. At Patrick’s day parades have been cancelled and I feel it might not be long until we have similar lockdowns to Italy.
Post by: Arn on March 09, 2020, 06:37:06 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/ffs5ng/coronavirus_doctor_in_bergamo_its_like_a_war_we/
Post by: Bates on March 09, 2020, 06:38:31 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?
A stiff drink or three? I wouldn’t get too concerned by it right now. Drops like this usually rebound once the panic subsides.
My normal approach......unfortunately this time I have to sell some for a condo purchase. Hopefully I can sell my house fast enough to take advantage on the other side???
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 06:42:29 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?
This might help:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007 (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007)
Post by: Bates on March 09, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?
This might help:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007 (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007)
That should help me sleep better.
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 07:05:07 PM
We'll all sleep better come the revolution.
Post by: Bates on March 09, 2020, 07:09:52 PM
We'll all sleep better come the revolution.
Not me, I like our present way.
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 07:17:35 PM
We'll all sleep better come the revolution.
Not me, I like our present way.
Your commitment to individual self interest has been noted and will be remembered when the pudding cups are distributed, comrade.
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 09, 2020, 07:21:02 PM
The entire country of Italy will be in quarantee now...
An interesting, scary twitter thread from within a hospital in Italy worth reading:1/ I may be repeating myself, but I want to fight this sense of security that I see outside of the epicenters, as if nothing was going to happen "here". The media in Europe are reassuring, politicians are reassuring, while there's little to be reassured of. #COVID19 #coronavirus
— Silvia Stringhini (@silviast9) March 9, 2020
We’re beginning to see cases here in Ireland, northern and republic. At Patrick’s day parades have been cancelled and I feel it might not be long until we have similar lockdowns to Italy.
I had a conversation about this with a co-worker tonight. That was the part that I was missing when I said that this wasn't really bothering me. It's the load on the health care system the ultimately is the problem and will eventually lead to deaths. I didn't even think of that angle.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on March 09, 2020, 07:21:39 PM
I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
Vitamins and natural products in general have never killed people except in certain cases compared to the number of people who die from medication complications in hospitals (and that is a well-known fact).
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages (https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages)
Also, I’d like to remind you that the FDA has never approved of a single natural product. They are stacked with former Pharma executives who march to each other’s beat. The FDA was originally set up by pharmaceuticals to push their own interests.
In Ontario, under the premiership of the David Peterson government, then health minister Monte Kwinter passed legislation that to this day stands:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/ (https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/)
The incredible naïveté of some of you people on this board is mind boggling. It’s pretty obvious none of you know next to nothing about the history of medicine, pharmaceuticals, herbal medicine, the struggles some doctors went through in helping their patients achieve better health vs medical boards, mistreatment of women by mainstream medicine (from the past), etc., etc.
I know what I’m doing with my health. While it still isn’t where it should be and may never be, it’s helping me cope with whatever symptoms I have to keep me alive and to be able to enjoy Leafs hockey. 🙂
Natural/integrative medical modalities have saved my life and I continue to stand by it. While I am currently under no prescribed medications, I understand that they too can be life-saving.
Once again, let me reiterate that no one is advocating people throw out their medicines, but if there is a way to a 50-50 approach or even greater, then all the better for patient outcome. Medications all have side-defects, it practically comes with the territory and there really isn’t much one can do about some greater and some minor, and taking them whatever they may be can cause long-term organ and general health damage to cells.
Many doctors privately believe herbs are better than drugs, just as effective in the longer term. Herbs have been around for thousands of years, long before pharmaceuticals were ever invented.
Everything has it’s risks —do not self-medicate not even for natural products, always seek out the advice of a healthcare practitioner — which is why a pragmatic, practical, and realistic approach for one’s health is truly the best advice.
Let’s face it, nutrition and health & wellness have become the lexicon on everyone’s lips. It runs the gamut from health professionals to exercise & wellness experts.
What some of us may not know is that many of those in the natural medicine field were long endorsing the usage of supplementation in it’s various forms, healthy eating habits, body/mind de stressing techniques, etcetera, etcetera, way before anyone had ever heard of it en masse. That’s who we have to thank long before the science behind it.
Great post! If there's no money in it big Pharma is not interested. I use 3000mg of C daily and more if I feel the need. I have a weakened immune system and was constantly dealing with infections to the point that many antibiotics no longer work for me. Since I started using vitamin C for internal infections and oregano oil for scratches, cuts and burns I have been antibiotic free for over 5 years.
Post by: Bates on March 09, 2020, 07:58:23 PM
We'll all sleep better come the revolution.
Not me, I like our present way.
Your commitment to individual self interest has been noted and will be remembered when the pudding cups are distributed, comrade.
Do you have butterscotch? I might change my opinion.
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2020, 08:22:40 PM
No, Nik I am a super informed consumer of NAC. If the WHO states that NAC is an essential nutrient for all of us to consume on a daily basis, then I am good with that. I am no Rube, Nik. I have done a ton of research on NAC and believe me, years of research. So I am not being hustled, I am being smart. And yes it has worked for me in the miracle way I have stated. I just tell everyone who cares to listen, do not believe me, but look for the information yourself. So were is the problem with this? I have no vested interested in the sales of NAC, but believe me I wish I did.For myself much the same, years and years of educating myself and then to be discarded as a "snake oil salesman", what a laugh.
I don't think anyone accused you of selling the snake oil. In the immortal words of the great philosopher Dr. Shawn Carter, they're hustlers, you're customers.
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2020, 08:24:09 PM
Agreed that is a lot of the D. I would cut that down to around 4IU. Doctor Highlander has spoken.I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
....
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2020, 08:25:35 PM
Can anyone suggest something I can take to deal with the stockmarket beating I've taken in the last week?Yes a case of Dos Equis, stay away for the Corona.. Oh keep the lime for Vitamin C.
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2020, 08:29:42 PM
Better for a re-view of Doctor Zhivago to see the real effects of revolution. Comrade. "There is no personal life in Russia anymore". "Strelnikov
We'll all sleep better come the revolution.
Post by: Bullfrog on March 09, 2020, 09:00:40 PM
Great post! If there's no money in it big Pharma is not interested. I use 3000mg of C daily and more if I feel the need. I have a weakened immune system and was constantly dealing with infections to the point that many antibiotics no longer work for me. Since I started using vitamin C for internal infections and oregano oil for scratches, cuts and burns I have been antibiotic free for over 5 years.
Thank goodness those supplements and vitamins are free and completely not created and sold by profitable corporations.
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 09:11:57 PM
So were is the problem with this?
And your clinical/scientific education is in what field? And the evidence for your claims were peer reviewed and published where? And you're sure you passed the test to not just be informed but super informed?
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 09:15:19 PM
Better for a re-view of Doctor Zhivago to see the real effects of revolution. Comrade. "There is no personal life in Russia anymore". "Strelnikov
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges, begging for money and stealing bread."
- Anatole France
Post by: bustaheims on March 09, 2020, 09:51:52 PM
Great post! If there's no money in it big Pharma is not interested. I use 3000mg of C daily and more if I feel the need. I have a weakened immune system and was constantly dealing with infections to the point that many antibiotics no longer work for me. Since I started using vitamin C for internal infections and oregano oil for scratches, cuts and burns I have been antibiotic free for over 5 years.
Thank goodness those supplements and vitamins are free and completely not created and sold by profitable corporations.
And you’ll never guess who many of those corporations are!
Post by: Frycer14 on March 09, 2020, 10:20:45 PM
1. Make a health claim with poorly reviewed or minimal basis in science and yell "get educated" at everyone.
2. Provide out of context links and 3rd party articles
3. Yell "big pharma" repeatedly
4. Cut bait with "well, it works for me! And my cat has never been healthier!"
shampoo, rinse, repeat. Do the chocolate pudding cups have more value in the barter economy due to all the antioxidants? I'm trying to maximize my return in foil covered convenience foods.
Post by: TimKerr on March 09, 2020, 10:41:01 PM
I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
Vitamins and natural products in general have never killed people except in certain cases compared to the number of people who die from medication complications in hospitals (and that is a well-known fact).
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages (https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages)
Also, I’d like to remind you that the FDA has never approved of a single natural product. They are stacked with former Pharma executives who march to each other’s beat. The FDA was originally set up by pharmaceuticals to push their own interests.
In Ontario, under the premiership of the David Peterson government, then health minister Monte Kwinter passed legislation that to this day stands:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/ (https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/)
The incredible naïveté of some of you people on this board is mind boggling. It’s pretty obvious none of you know next to nothing about the history of medicine, pharmaceuticals, herbal medicine, the struggles some doctors went through in helping their patients achieve better health vs medical boards, mistreatment of women by mainstream medicine (from the past), etc., etc.
I know what I’m doing with my health. While it still isn’t where it should be and may never be, it’s helping me cope with whatever symptoms I have to keep me alive and to be able to enjoy Leafs hockey. 🙂
Natural/integrative medical modalities have saved my life and I continue to stand by it. While I am currently under no prescribed medications, I understand that they too can be life-saving.
Once again, let me reiterate that no one is advocating people throw out their medicines, but if there is a way to a 50-50 approach or even greater, then all the better for patient outcome. Medications all have side-defects, it practically comes with the territory and there really isn’t much one can do about some greater and some minor, and taking them whatever they may be can cause long-term organ and general health damage to cells.
Many doctors privately believe herbs are better than drugs, just as effective in the longer term. Herbs have been around for thousands of years, long before pharmaceuticals were ever invented.
Everything has it’s risks —do not self-medicate not even for natural products, always seek out the advice of a healthcare practitioner — which is why a pragmatic, practical, and realistic approach for one’s health is truly the best advice.
Let’s face it, nutrition and health & wellness have become the lexicon on everyone’s lips. It runs the gamut from health professionals to exercise & wellness experts.
What some of us may not know is that many of those in the natural medicine field were long endorsing the usage of supplementation in it’s various forms, healthy eating habits, body/mind de stressing techniques, etcetera, etcetera, way before anyone had ever heard of it en masse. That’s who we have to thank long before the science behind it.
Great post! If there's no money in it big Pharma is not interested.
Unlike all the other corporations who develop and sell their products for free to the general public.
Post by: Bender on March 09, 2020, 10:43:16 PM
Academic researchers make a lot less money than you think to publish most work and generally disclose any additional funding.I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
Vitamins and natural products in general have never killed people except in certain cases compared to the number of people who die from medication complications in hospitals (and that is a well-known fact).
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages (https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages)
Also, I’d like to remind you that the FDA has never approved of a single natural product. They are stacked with former Pharma executives who march to each other’s beat. The FDA was originally set up by pharmaceuticals to push their own interests.
In Ontario, under the premiership of the David Peterson government, then health minister Monte Kwinter passed legislation that to this day stands:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/ (https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/)
The incredible naïveté of some of you people on this board is mind boggling. It’s pretty obvious none of you know next to nothing about the history of medicine, pharmaceuticals, herbal medicine, the struggles some doctors went through in helping their patients achieve better health vs medical boards, mistreatment of women by mainstream medicine (from the past), etc., etc.
I know what I’m doing with my health. While it still isn’t where it should be and may never be, it’s helping me cope with whatever symptoms I have to keep me alive and to be able to enjoy Leafs hockey.
Natural/integrative medical modalities have saved my life and I continue to stand by it. While I am currently under no prescribed medications, I understand that they too can be life-saving.
Once again, let me reiterate that no one is advocating people throw out their medicines, but if there is a way to a 50-50 approach or even greater, then all the better for patient outcome. Medications all have side-defects, it practically comes with the territory and there really isn’t much one can do about some greater and some minor, and taking them whatever they may be can cause long-term organ and general health damage to cells.
Many doctors privately believe herbs are better than drugs, just as effective in the longer term. Herbs have been around for thousands of years, long before pharmaceuticals were ever invented.
Everything has it’s risks —do not self-medicate not even for natural products, always seek out the advice of a healthcare practitioner — which is why a pragmatic, practical, and realistic approach for one’s health is truly the best advice.
Let’s face it, nutrition and health & wellness have become the lexicon on everyone’s lips. It runs the gamut from health professionals to exercise & wellness experts.
What some of us may not know is that many of those in the natural medicine field were long endorsing the usage of supplementation in it’s various forms, healthy eating habits, body/mind de stressing techniques, etcetera, etcetera, way before anyone had ever heard of it en masse. That’s who we have to thank long before the science behind it.
Great post! If there's no money in it big Pharma is not interested. I use 3000mg of C daily and more if I feel the need. I have a weakened immune system and was constantly dealing with infections to the point that many antibiotics no longer work for me. Since I started using vitamin C for internal infections and oregano oil for scratches, cuts and burns I have been antibiotic free for over 5 years.
If something were effective generally pharma companies would want it. I don't like the idea of profiteering off illness but the idea that treatments are withheld because theres no money in it is asinine. The coldfx people are laughing all the way to the bank.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 09, 2020, 10:45:10 PM
I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
....
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
And, hopefully, that primary care physician is a fully licensed medical doctor, with the Doctorate of Medicine to confirm that status. The overwhelming majority of naturopath simply have not had the kind of education required to be dispensing advice when it relates to such abnormally high amounts of vitamins, minerals, or any other substance.
I don’t just go to any ordinary Naturopath. My doctor is an MD/Integrative/ Natural Medicine with a M. of Sc. in Nutritional Biochemistry.
My family physician is the general family doctor. She specializes in Internal Medicine. She trusts my healthcare practitioner with the nutrition as she can see how it has benefitted me via analysis, etc.
I started off with 5,000 IUs. That did nothing. 10,000. 25,000. Eventually, the 50,000 IUs mark was enough to show sufficient Vit D intake. Of course, in my situation a certain megadose may be required, perhaps not for the longer term, but for most ordinary people a dosage of between 2000 - 5000 IUs is more than adequate.
Most health experts which includes the standardized dosage of Vit D peg a normal dosage at 2,000 IUs for each individual. My naturopath has researched this, wrote about it, spoken about, and has seen the benefits with not the usual dosage but with a slightly higher dosage which he knows it to be far more beneficial for most people.
Post by: Bender on March 09, 2020, 11:02:40 PM
And therein lies the rub, extraordinary therapies are likely out of the realm of what most people should do or take. The post above is more nuanced than your original take but I still would stress people to speak to a GP they trust before making medical decisions.I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
....
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
And, hopefully, that primary care physician is a fully licensed medical doctor, with the Doctorate of Medicine to confirm that status. The overwhelming majority of naturopath simply have not had the kind of education required to be dispensing advice when it relates to such abnormally high amounts of vitamins, minerals, or any other substance.
I don’t just go to any ordinary Naturopath. My doctor is an MD/Integrative/ Natural Medicine with a M. of Sc. in Nutritional Biochemistry.
My family physician is the general family doctor. She specializes in Internal Medicine. She trusts my healthcare practitioner with the nutrition as she can see how it has benefitted me via analysis, etc.
I started off with 5,000 IUs. That did nothing. 10,000. 25,000. Eventually, the 50,000 IUs mark was enough to show sufficient Vit D intake. Of course, in my situation a certain megadose may be required, perhaps not for the longer term, but for most ordinary people a dosage of between 2000 - 5000 IUs is more than adequate.
Most health experts which includes the standardized dosage of Vit D peg a normal dosage at 2,000 IUs for each individual. My naturopath has researched this, wrote about it, spoken about, and has seen the benefits with not the usual dosage but with a slightly higher dosage which he knows it to be far more beneficial for most people.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)31200-1/pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4gNX38o7oAhUMWN8KHVDDCr0QFjAQegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1AczzlO9i4o7At4vBWZPmc
Not to you in particular but look at this. Vit D supplements alone are worth $600M+/yr. Sounds like a pretty good racket to me.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 09, 2020, 11:12:41 PM
And therein lies the rub, extraordinary therapies are likely out of the realm of what most people should do or take. The post above is more nuanced than your original take but I still would stress people to speak to a GP they trust before making medical decisions.I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what’s listed on the bottle.
....
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
And, hopefully, that primary care physician is a fully licensed medical doctor, with the Doctorate of Medicine to confirm that status. The overwhelming majority of naturopath simply have not had the kind of education required to be dispensing advice when it relates to such abnormally high amounts of vitamins, minerals, or any other substance.
I don’t just go to any ordinary Naturopath. My doctor is an MD/Integrative/ Natural Medicine with a M. of Sc. in Nutritional Biochemistry.
My family physician is the general family doctor. She specializes in Internal Medicine. She trusts my healthcare practitioner with the nutrition as she can see how it has benefitted me via analysis, etc.
I started off with 5,000 IUs. That did nothing. 10,000. 25,000. Eventually, the 50,000 IUs mark was enough to show sufficient Vit D intake. Of course, in my situation a certain megadose may be required, perhaps not for the longer term, but for most ordinary people a dosage of between 2000 - 5000 IUs is more than adequate.
Most health experts which includes the standardized dosage of Vit D peg a normal dosage at 2,000 IUs for each individual. My naturopath has researched this, wrote about it, spoken about, and has seen the benefits with not the usual dosage but with a slightly higher dosage which he knows it to be far more beneficial for most people.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)31200-1/pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4gNX38o7oAhUMWN8KHVDDCr0QFjAQegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1AczzlO9i4o7At4vBWZPmc (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)31200-1/pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi4gNX38o7oAhUMWN8KHVDDCr0QFjAQegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1AczzlO9i4o7At4vBWZPmc)
Not to you in particular but look at this. Vit D supplements alone are worth $600M+/yr. Sounds like a pretty good racket to me.
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
Most researchers may or may not endeavour to take it upon themselves to discover unique findings. However, to say that the era of the independent researcher is alive and well is not knowing exactly where it’s really at, nor where it’s really been.
Frederic Banting & Charles Best were probably the last breed of ‘independent research scientists’ who, by the way, had great respect for herbal medicine, as they claimed it helped their diabetes patients cope better.
This article here explains in details all that goes on in between the Pharma/science/ research connection...and how incredibly corrupted it is:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001716
That alone is sickening.
There is both good and bad on all sides of the medical equation.
Post by: TimKerr on March 09, 2020, 11:19:29 PM
[/quote]
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
[/quote]
No, that is the furthest thing from science I can think of. Because you used it once and your cold went away doesn't mean it works. What if your cold was already going to go away? What if you never had a cold and what you had was an allergic reaction that only lasted for a short time? What if I use it and my cold doesn't go away? There are a million variables to be accounted for. This is why vitamins and the like are never FDA approved because they can't prove anything actually works. As for actual medicine, which has to go through years and years of testing and trials before it can go to market.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 09, 2020, 11:31:33 PM
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
[/quote]
No, that is the furthest thing from science I can think of. Because you used it once and your cold went away doesn't mean it works. What if your cold was already going to go away? What if you never had a cold and what you had was an allergic reaction that only lasted for a short time? What if I use it and my cold doesn't go away? There are a million variables to be accounted for. This is why vitamins and the like are never FDA approved because they can't prove anything actually works. As for actual medicine, which has to go through years and years of testing and trials before it can go to market.
[/quote]
This is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Are you serious?
Yes, I did try ColdFx, not one actually, but several times and I could feel it working. I took nothing else. And the cold doesn’t just “go away”. I had a full-fledged cold, sore throat symptoms coming on.
The FDA is full of sh***.
Vitamins, supplements, and herbs have long been tested and cannot be lumped together with pharmaceuticals. They need to be tested differently which they have been.
Do you actually believe you exist?
Post by: Nik on March 09, 2020, 11:50:22 PM
These conversations always go the same way
1. Make a health claim with poorly reviewed or minimal basis in science and yell "get educated" at everyone.
2. Provide out of context links and 3rd party articles
3. Yell "big pharma" repeatedly
4. Cut bait with "well, it works for me! And my cat has never been healthier!"
shampoo, rinse, repeat.
As evidenced, you missed out on the stage where they attack the notion of evidence based science altogether because everyone who disagrees with them is either duped by the vast conspiracy or a party to it.
It's tin foil stuff.
Post by: TimKerr on March 10, 2020, 12:18:05 AM
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
No, that is the furthest thing from science I can think of. Because you used it once and your cold went away doesn't mean it works. What if your cold was already going to go away? What if you never had a cold and what you had was an allergic reaction that only lasted for a short time? What if I use it and my cold doesn't go away? There are a million variables to be accounted for. This is why vitamins and the like are never FDA approved because they can't prove anything actually works. As for actual medicine, which has to go through years and years of testing and trials before it can go to market.
[/quote]
This is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Are you serious?
Yes, I did try ColdFx, not one actually, but several times and I could feel it working. I took nothing else. And the cold doesn’t just “go away”. I had a full-fledged cold, sore throat symptoms coming on.
The FDA is full of sh***.
Vitamins, supplements, and herbs have long been tested and cannot be lumped together with pharmaceuticals. They need to be tested differently which they have been.
Do you actually believe you exist?
[/quote]
Point me to one peer-reviewed scientific paper that shows the efficacy vitamins and supplements. and in typical fashion instead of showing any proof or links you just say "I could feel it working" sounds like science to me. and yes colds just go away or has there been a cure for the common cold that we are all unaware of. Is your argument that if I have a cold and don't take anything that the cold will just stay with me forever?
and you're right the FDA is full of sh** when my uncle had cancer he used a supplement and was miraculously cured none of that FDA approved crap for him and also when my cousin had breast and bowel cancer, same thing. Right to the high end scientitic supplements and was saved forever. Thank God she ignored any of the medicines the FDA approved of.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 10, 2020, 06:02:19 AM
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
No, that is the furthest thing from science I can think of. Because you used it once and your cold went away doesn't mean it works. What if your cold was already going to go away? What if you never had a cold and what you had was an allergic reaction that only lasted for a short time? What if I use it and my cold doesn't go away? There are a million variables to be accounted for. This is why vitamins and the like are never FDA approved because they can't prove anything actually works. As for actual medicine, which has to go through years and years of testing and trials before it can go to market.
This is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Are you serious?
Yes, I did try ColdFx, not one actually, but several times and I could feel it working. I took nothing else. And the cold doesn’t just “go away”. I had a full-fledged cold, sore throat symptoms coming on.
The FDA is full of sh***.
Vitamins, supplements, and herbs have long been tested and cannot be lumped together with pharmaceuticals. They need to be tested differently which they have been.
Do you actually believe you exist?
[/quote]
Point me to one peer-reviewed scientific paper that shows the efficacy vitamins and supplements. and in typical fashion instead of showing any proof or links you just say "I could feel it working" sounds like science to me. and yes colds just go away or has there been a cure for the common cold that we are all unaware of. Is your argument that if I have a cold and don't take anything that the cold will just stay with me forever?
and you're right the FDA is full of sh** when my uncle had cancer he used a supplement and was miraculously cured none of that FDA approved crap for him and also when my cousin had breast and bowel cancer, same thing. Right to the high end scientitic supplements and was saved forever. Thank God she ignored any of the medicines the FDA approved of.
[/quote]
Does chemotherapy cure anything? Only if the cancer tumours are in their infancy, then chemo isn’t too bad an approach to take. But really, I consider chemotherapy to be half quackery because according to researchers, it could e the chemo that allows the cancer to return with a vigilance. This may be along the same analogy of the theory of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
No one therapy will ever ‘cure’ cancer or disease. A multi-faceted approach is what’s required not a one-track approach which is basically what we have in our hospitals. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a cancer ‘cure’ per se. if that’s what everyone’s been looking for, well, my friend, they’ll never find it. That’s the way conventional medicine operates eschewing other modalities of treatment in conjunction with the present treatment available.
In a hospital, one will be dealing mostly with drugs and surgery. That is where the research goes, not into any other field. Pharmaceuticals are the largest provider of medications in hospitals which also means they have an influence in keeping things as they are. Big Pharma isn’t stupid. They know full well the power of plants. Since it is against the law to patent Mother Nature, they have no use for that side of medicine and instead throughout medical history have chosen to suppress it instead, including doctors who’ve tried to help their patients in the past. There were countless stories I’ve read that showcased the pressure doctors used to feel from Pharma salesmen to prescribe such and such a drug.
I’d like to remind you that doctors at the turn of the century were still using herbal medicinals to treat a variety of ailments. They saw no usage for drugs in those days because what they were using seemed sufficient enough for their patients.
Along came Pastuer and Pharma. Pasteur with his own wrongful theory of disease — treating the symptoms rather than the root cause. His rival Béchamps believed in getting to the root cause of disease because without that, the symptoms will always stay with you. He also believed and proved through his research that the so-called “germ theory” was not completely responsible for disease mechanisms to flourish, but rather an unbalanced state of the body due to environmental & chemical exposure, including food & enzymatic imbalances that caused cells to evolve into a weakened state for cancer and other diseases to proliferate.
Béchamps & Pasteur were bitter rivals, but, Pasteur’s theory was hailed with great fanfare as pharmaceutical companies saw it as a potential money-maker. Afterall, there is more money to be made in sickness than in health.
In later years, after his retirement from research, Pasteur lived in Switzerland not necessarily keeping abreast of medical developments. He still retained friends in the medical field and upon asking how everything was going, he assumed that with all of the medications that people were actually getting better and their symptoms or abnormalities addressed accordingly. He learned quite to the contrary which prompted him to say “Antoine was right, and I was wrong. The germ is nothing, the milieu is everything. My God, what have I unleashed?”
Someone should have told him a medical monster in waiting.
And to think that $600M is what the health care field generates is considered piddle in the bucket when one compares to the billions, $Bs of dollars just one pharmaceutical has in it’s arsenal, more than even that of a very small country.
They’ve spread their tentacles far enough. Not only are they among the world’s most powerful lobbyists, they publish all the medical books, they’ve stacked medical boards with like-minded people to suit their own interests, they’ve been accused (a fact investigated by Dr. Marcia Engel of Harvard) of undermining proper research in universities by corrupting those very places, etc. The once prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has sadly been corrupted by them as well. The list is endless.
And you’re telling me that the health food / natural health field is poison and kills people? That there is no merit in anything that is the opposite of a medication?
My naturopath / MD references his work and does his due diligence in making sure that what he writes about does indeed have validity of efficacy.
For most of my life, I never ventured toward natural medicine because I was like the rest of you thinking I don’t need that stuff. Well, well, well, guess where I’m at today. There was a time when I too used to think that that was bunk medicine, what’s wrong with the doctors. Aren’t they supposed to make us well?
My experience with medicine and doctors has taught me quite the opposite suggestion. From the time I was three years old, I have gone to an exhaustive number of MDs. Mainstream medicine never ever offered me any hope because they themselves didn’t know much about the subject matter themselves.
By the time I turned over to natural medicine, it was simply too late to reverse some of my symptoms this condition has left me with. (I did not know that my Dr. Rona was covered by OHiP at one time. This was before he turned private). I wasn’t about to make the same mistake with my nutrition which propelled me to seek out far better advice than I could ever have hoped for by finally going to him. And I’m glad I did. It also opened up a world I did not know existed and inspired me (as well as my late brother) to be informed, open-minded, and to learn how to read between the lines, so to speak.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 10, 2020, 06:21:27 AM
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/2020/3/9/1_4846008.amp.html (https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/2020/3/9/1_4846008.amp.html)
and this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-supplies-ex/exclusive-millions-of-masks-stockpiled-in-canadas-ontario-expired-before-coronavirus-hit-idUSKBN20W2OG (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-supplies-ex/exclusive-millions-of-masks-stockpiled-in-canadas-ontario-expired-before-coronavirus-hit-idUSKBN20W2OG)
The facts on masks:
https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 10, 2020, 06:33:49 AM
Quote
Some COVID-19 patients say they experienced ‘extremely mild’ symptoms before testing positive for the novel coronavirus, raising concerns that the virus is being spread by some who don’t realize they’re infected.
For Dr. Miryam Carecchio, a neurologist in Padua, Italy, discovering she was infected, came as a shock.
I had no fever, no cold, no sore throat, and I had no major issues,” she told CTV National News.
The assistant professor at the University of Padua did experience muscle pain in February, she said, so she took some Tylenol, called in sick, and was back to work the following day.
She later experienced changes, including a loss of taste in her mouth, but didn’t think the symptoms were extreme enough to be linked to the COVID-19 outbreak.
“I didn’t feel any of my very minor complaints were consistent with this infection,” she said.
The 37 year old says she was tested – “by chance” at the hospital -because she was not ill, had not travelled to a high risk area, and didn’t fit the criteria for testing. Last Thursday she got the news she was positive and had to be quarantined until March 20, her birthday.
“I was surprised,” she said. “I was a bit scared, I must say.”
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-patients-say-they-had-no-idea-they-were-ill-1.4845959
Post by: Arn on March 10, 2020, 06:51:40 AM
As for that other rubbish rant about "big pharma". Jesus Christ.
Post by: TimKerr on March 10, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
No, that is the furthest thing from science I can think of. Because you used it once and your cold went away doesn't mean it works. What if your cold was already going to go away? What if you never had a cold and what you had was an allergic reaction that only lasted for a short time? What if I use it and my cold doesn't go away? There are a million variables to be accounted for. This is why vitamins and the like are never FDA approved because they can't prove anything actually works. As for actual medicine, which has to go through years and years of testing and trials before it can go to market.
This is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Are you serious?
Yes, I did try ColdFx, not one actually, but several times and I could feel it working. I took nothing else. And the cold doesn’t just “go away”. I had a full-fledged cold, sore throat symptoms coming on.
The FDA is full of sh***.
Vitamins, supplements, and herbs have long been tested and cannot be lumped together with pharmaceuticals. They need to be tested differently which they have been.
Do you actually believe you exist?
Point me to one peer-reviewed scientific paper that shows the efficacy vitamins and supplements. and in typical fashion instead of showing any proof or links you just say "I could feel it working" sounds like science to me. and yes colds just go away or has there been a cure for the common cold that we are all unaware of. Is your argument that if I have a cold and don't take anything that the cold will just stay with me forever?
and you're right the FDA is full of sh** when my uncle had cancer he used a supplement and was miraculously cured none of that FDA approved crap for him and also when my cousin had breast and bowel cancer, same thing. Right to the high end scientitic supplements and was saved forever. Thank God she ignored any of the medicines the FDA approved of.
[/quote]
Does chemotherapy cure anything? Only if the cancer tumours are in their infancy, then chemo isn’t too bad an approach to take. But really, I consider chemotherapy to be half quackery because according to researchers, it could e the chemo that allows the cancer to return with a vigilance. This may be along the same analogy of the theory of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
No one therapy will ever ‘cure’ cancer or disease. A multi-faceted approach is what’s required not a one-track approach which is basically what we have in our hospitals. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a cancer ‘cure’ per se. if that’s what everyone’s been looking for, well, my friend, they’ll never find it. That’s the way conventional medicine operates eschewing other modalities of treatment in conjunction with the present treatment available.
In a hospital, one will be dealing mostly with drugs and surgery. That is where the research goes, not into any other field. Pharmaceuticals are the largest provider of medications in hospitals which also means they have an influence in keeping things as they are. Big Pharma isn’t stupid. They know full well the power of plants. Since it is against the law to patent Mother Nature, they have no use for that side of medicine and instead throughout medical history have chosen to suppress it instead, including doctors who’ve tried to help their patients in the past. There were countless stories I’ve read that showcased the pressure doctors used to feel from Pharma salesmen to prescribe such and such a drug.
I’d like to remind you that doctors at the turn of the century were still using herbal medicinals to treat a variety of ailments. They saw no usage for drugs in those days because what they were using seemed sufficient enough for their patients.
Along came Pastuer and Pharma. Pasteur with his own wrongful theory of disease — treating the symptoms rather than the root cause. His rival Béchamps believed in getting to the root cause of disease because without that, the symptoms will always stay with you. He also believed and proved through his research that the so-called “germ theory” was not completely responsible for disease mechanisms to flourish, but rather an unbalanced state of the body due to environmental & chemical exposure, including food & enzymatic imbalances that caused cells to evolve into a weakened state for cancer and other diseases to proliferate.
Béchamps & Pasteur were bitter rivals, but, Pasteur’s theory was hailed with great fanfare as pharmaceutical companies saw it as a potential money-maker. Afterall, there is more money to be made in sickness than in health.
In later years, after his retirement from research, Pasteur lived in Switzerland not necessarily keeping abreast of medical developments. He still retained friends in the medical field and upon asking how everything was going, he assumed that with all of the medications that people were actually getting better and their symptoms or abnormalities addressed accordingly. He learned quite to the contrary which prompted him to say “Antoine was right, and I was wrong. The germ is nothing, the milieu is everything. My God, what have I unleashed?”
Someone should have told him a medical monster in waiting.
And to think that $600M is what the health care field generates is considered piddle in the bucket when one compares to the billions, $Bs of dollars just one pharmaceutical has in it’s arsenal, more than even that of a very small country.
They’ve spread their tentacles far enough. Not only are they among the world’s most powerful lobbyists, they publish all the medical books, they’ve stacked medical boards with like-minded people to suit their own interests, they’ve been accused (a fact investigated by Dr. Marcia Engel of Harvard) of undermining proper research in universities by corrupting those very places, etc. The once prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has sadly been corrupted by them as well. The list is endless.
And you’re telling me that the health food / natural health field is poison and kills people? That there is no merit in anything that is the opposite of a medication?
My naturopath / MD references his work and does his due diligence in making sure that what he writes about does indeed have validity of efficacy.
For most of my life, I never ventured toward natural medicine because I was like the rest of you thinking I don’t need that stuff. Well, well, well, guess where I’m at today. There was a time when I too used to think that that was bunk medicine, what’s wrong with the doctors. Aren’t they supposed to make us well?
My experience with medicine and doctors has taught me quite the opposite suggestion. From the time I was three years old, I have gone to an exhaustive number of MDs. Mainstream medicine never ever offered me any hope because they themselves didn’t know much about the subject matter themselves.
By the time I turned over to natural medicine, it was simply too late to reverse some of my symptoms this condition has left me with. (I did not know that my Dr. Rona was covered by OHiP at one time. This was before he turned private). I wasn’t about to make the same mistake with my nutrition which propelled me to seek out far better advice than I could ever have hoped for by finally going to him. And I’m glad I did. It also opened up a world I did not know existed and inspired me (as well as my late brother) to be informed, open-minded, and to learn how to read between the lines, so to speak.
[/quote]
I asked for one peer reviewed paper and you go on a rant the likes of which would be more applicable on infowars.com.
I have finished discussing this. Hope you enjoy the rest of your week.
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 07:38:06 AM
ColdFX by the way works very well. I tried it once and it did the job it was supposed to do.
No, that is the furthest thing from science I can think of. Because you used it once and your cold went away doesn't mean it works. What if your cold was already going to go away? What if you never had a cold and what you had was an allergic reaction that only lasted for a short time? What if I use it and my cold doesn't go away? There are a million variables to be accounted for. This is why vitamins and the like are never FDA approved because they can't prove anything actually works. As for actual medicine, which has to go through years and years of testing and trials before it can go to market.
This is the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard. Are you serious?
Yes, I did try ColdFx, not one actually, but several times and I could feel it working. I took nothing else. And the cold doesn’t just “go away”. I had a full-fledged cold, sore throat symptoms coming on.
The FDA is full of sh***.
Vitamins, supplements, and herbs have long been tested and cannot be lumped together with pharmaceuticals. They need to be tested differently which they have been.
Do you actually believe you exist?
Point me to one peer-reviewed scientific paper that shows the efficacy vitamins and supplements. and in typical fashion instead of showing any proof or links you just say "I could feel it working" sounds like science to me. and yes colds just go away or has there been a cure for the common cold that we are all unaware of. Is your argument that if I have a cold and don't take anything that the cold will just stay with me forever?
and you're right the FDA is full of sh** when my uncle had cancer he used a supplement and was miraculously cured none of that FDA approved crap for him and also when my cousin had breast and bowel cancer, same thing. Right to the high end scientitic supplements and was saved forever. Thank God she ignored any of the medicines the FDA approved of.
[/quote]
Does chemotherapy cure anything? Only if the cancer tumours are in their infancy, then chemo isn’t too bad an approach to take. But really, I consider chemotherapy to be half quackery because according to researchers, it could e the chemo that allows the cancer to return with a vigilance. This may be along the same analogy of the theory of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
No one therapy will ever ‘cure’ cancer or disease. A multi-faceted approach is what’s required not a one-track approach which is basically what we have in our hospitals. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a cancer ‘cure’ per se. if that’s what everyone’s been looking for, well, my friend, they’ll never find it. That’s the way conventional medicine operates eschewing other modalities of treatment in conjunction with the present treatment available.
In a hospital, one will be dealing mostly with drugs and surgery. That is where the research goes, not into any other field. Pharmaceuticals are the largest provider of medications in hospitals which also means they have an influence in keeping things as they are. Big Pharma isn’t stupid. They know full well the power of plants. Since it is against the law to patent Mother Nature, they have no use for that side of medicine and instead throughout medical history have chosen to suppress it instead, including doctors who’ve tried to help their patients in the past. There were countless stories I’ve read that showcased the pressure doctors used to feel from Pharma salesmen to prescribe such and such a drug.
I’d like to remind you that doctors at the turn of the century were still using herbal medicinals to treat a variety of ailments. They saw no usage for drugs in those days because what they were using seemed sufficient enough for their patients.
Along came Pastuer and Pharma. Pasteur with his own wrongful theory of disease — treating the symptoms rather than the root cause. His rival Béchamps believed in getting to the root cause of disease because without that, the symptoms will always stay with you. He also believed and proved through his research that the so-called “germ theory” was not completely responsible for disease mechanisms to flourish, but rather an unbalanced state of the body due to environmental & chemical exposure, including food & enzymatic imbalances that caused cells to evolve into a weakened state for cancer and other diseases to proliferate.
Béchamps & Pasteur were bitter rivals, but, Pasteur’s theory was hailed with great fanfare as pharmaceutical companies saw it as a potential money-maker. Afterall, there is more money to be made in sickness than in health.
In later years, after his retirement from research, Pasteur lived in Switzerland not necessarily keeping abreast of medical developments. He still retained friends in the medical field and upon asking how everything was going, he assumed that with all of the medications that people were actually getting better and their symptoms or abnormalities addressed accordingly. He learned quite to the contrary which prompted him to say “Antoine was right, and I was wrong. The germ is nothing, the milieu is everything. My God, what have I unleashed?”
Someone should have told him a medical monster in waiting.
And to think that $600M is what the health care field generates is considered piddle in the bucket when one compares to the billions, $Bs of dollars just one pharmaceutical has in it’s arsenal, more than even that of a very small country.
They’ve spread their tentacles far enough. Not only are they among the world’s most powerful lobbyists, they publish all the medical books, they’ve stacked medical boards with like-minded people to suit their own interests, they’ve been accused (a fact investigated by Dr. Marcia Engel of Harvard) of undermining proper research in universities by corrupting those very places, etc. The once prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has sadly been corrupted by them as well. The list is endless.
And you’re telling me that the health food / natural health field is poison and kills people? That there is no merit in anything that is the opposite of a medication?
My naturopath / MD references his work and does his due diligence in making sure that what he writes about does indeed have validity of efficacy.
For most of my life, I never ventured toward natural medicine because I was like the rest of you thinking I don’t need that stuff. Well, well, well, guess where I’m at today. There was a time when I too used to think that that was bunk medicine, what’s wrong with the doctors. Aren’t they supposed to make us well?
My experience with medicine and doctors has taught me quite the opposite suggestion. From the time I was three years old, I have gone to an exhaustive number of MDs. Mainstream medicine never ever offered me any hope because they themselves didn’t know much about the subject matter themselves.
By the time I turned over to natural medicine, it was simply too late to reverse some of my symptoms this condition has left me with. (I did not know that my Dr. Rona was covered by OHiP at one time. This was before he turned private). I wasn’t about to make the same mistake with my nutrition which propelled me to seek out far better advice than I could ever have hoped for by finally going to him. And I’m glad I did. It also opened up a world I did not know existed and inspired me (as well as my late brother) to be informed, open-minded, and to learn how to read between the lines, so to speak.
[/quote]That's great that you have a good experience with natural medicine. My former doctor was a naturopath and held and M.D. and held all the requisite designations and in my experience, based on symptoms, I was getting no better treatment than a placebo, and the upshot of my experience is that I'm lucky to be alive despite some pretty bad negligence caused by the naturopathic medicine industry. Even simple logic would conclude: why am I using natural medicine when my doctor would prescribe real medicine when the naturopathic medicine failed every time? It's nonsensical.
You can rant and rave all you want about your own experience but it isn't the only experience out there. And most of us are at least trying to use data beyond our simple experience to back up our claims. Quite frankly this conversation is getting tiresome, especially when someone claims chemotherapy is borderline "quackery." In the famous words of Inigo Montoya, "I don't think this word means what you think it means."
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 10, 2020, 07:54:07 AM
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/66/2/427/4655754 (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/66/2/427/4655754)
Here’s another view:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/patients-doctors-know-vitamins-supplements-2018031613418 (https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/patients-doctors-know-vitamins-supplements-2018031613418)
Again, food is the best way of getting proper nutrition though there are vast exceptions. However, the problem with food today is that it comes from many parts of the world (more than ever) and thus by the time it reaches your table, it is already depleted in it’s nutritional content. That is why Certified Organic is considered superior because they retain more of their nutrient content.
LEF is an investigative scientific organization that researches the efficacy, effectiveness, and safety of not only vitamins, supplements, herbs, etc,, but also modern medications such as Aspirin, Metformin, etc. They offer a balanced, scientifically-bent results for anyone interested to know. They sell their own branded supplements through membership, publish a monthly magazine outlining in detail all studies undertaken complete with references and data.
A perfect example of the way medicine should be but isn’t.
They also have a medical advisory board of integrative MDs, wellness physicians, and general MDs. I have asked them some questions pertaining to my condition (way before I ever went to a naturopath) and they advised me very well regarding steps I needed to take and be aware of regarding my condition.
https://www.lifeextension.com/featured-articles/2013/12/flawed-research-used-to-attack-multivitamin-supplements (https://www.lifeextension.com/featured-articles/2013/12/flawed-research-used-to-attack-multivitamin-supplements)
Post by: Zee on March 10, 2020, 09:46:25 AM
Post by: Nik on March 10, 2020, 10:28:57 AM
Or, even better, not quote and engage with that person.
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 10:58:51 AM
I appreciate that this topic has devolved once again into a forum for the world's most gullible to mount a crusade against the scientific method but that's really no excuse for the rest of you to not know how to fix your quotes.
Or, even better, not quote and engage with that person.
Early morning tapatalk.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 10, 2020, 11:21:56 AM
“Everything will be fine. Stay safe at home.”
🙏🙏🙏 #restateacasa #SassuoloBrescia @SassuoloUS pic.twitter.com/REBw2nRg8i
— Nicolas Annoscia - Match Analyst (@NicolasAnnoscia) March 10, 2020
Post by: Highlander on March 10, 2020, 12:29:52 PM
Acetaminophen is the active ingredient in Tylenol. It is also found in many other over-the-counter medications and in prescription drugs. Acetaminophen is in Actifed, Alka-Seltzer Plus, Benadryl, Co-Gesic, Contac, Excedrin, Fioricet, Lortab, Midrin, Norco, Percocet, Robitussin, Sedapap, Sinutab, Sudafed, TheraFlu, Unisom PM Pain, Vick's Nyquil and DayQuil, Vicodin, and Zydone.
Acetaminophen in overdose can seriously damage the liver. If the damage is severe, a liver transplant may be necessary in order to save someone’s life.
The antidote to acetaminophen overdose is N-acetylcysteine (NAC). It is most effective when given within eight hours of ingesting acetaminophen. Indeed, NAC can prevent liver failure if given early enough. For this reason, it is absolutely necessary that acetaminophen poisoning be recognized, diagnosed, and treated as early as possible.
I guess I am a gullible guy who Quacks can confuse. Bye for now! Keep washing your hands.
Post by: Chris on March 10, 2020, 12:42:55 PM
Please don’t eat the toilet paper! Masks gone. Hand sanitizers gone. Now...toilet paper!!!?
This is why you've gotta get the vitamin-fortified toilet paper. You never know!
Seriously, though, I started stocking up on supplies about a month ago. I didn't hoard, just bought an extra package of tp each time I went out, OTC drugs that we use regularly, canned/dried foods and drinks that we use anyway. Have been stocking the freezer with meats and veggies. My wife and I could probably get by for at least 2 months, maybe more, if it really hits the fan. Even managed to score some hand sanitizer a couple of weeks ago, as well as a couple packages of n95 masks from Lowes.
I don't necessarily believe it's the end of the world but things may get to the point where I don't want to have to go out and expose myself if the illness becomes widespread. The one big concern is that hospitals become overwhelmed and you have nowhere to go if you really need treatment. Here in the US hospitals regularly operate at over 90% capacity and I think I saw recently that they were at 96% because of the heavy flu season. Wouldn't take much of an outbreak to push the system over the edge.
As for all the other stuff about supplements and pharma...no real input to offer. One thing I did see recently is that there seems to be some decent evidence that vitamin D supplements can reduce ones chances of getting respiratory viruses. Not sure if that potential protection would work against something as virulent as the coronavirus but I've been on a vitamin D supplement for a few months and will continue taking it (would otherwise probably have stopped once the weather started warming up and I was getting out in the sun more often).
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 10, 2020, 02:11:25 PM
Post by: Frank E on March 10, 2020, 03:11:30 PM
I appreciate that this topic has devolved once again into a forum for the world's most gullible to mount a crusade against the scientific method but that's really no excuse for the rest of you to not know how to fix your quotes.
Or, even better, not quote and engage with that person.
Early morning tapatalk.
[/quote
As Nik said, there is no excuse for this mess of quotes.
I expect more of you.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 10, 2020, 03:28:55 PM
I don't necessarily believe it's the end of the world but things may get to the point where I don't want to have to go out and expose myself if the illness becomes widespread. The one big concern is that hospitals become overwhelmed and you have nowhere to go if you really need treatment. Here in the US hospitals regularly operate at over 90% capacity and I think I saw recently that they were at 96% because of the heavy flu season. Wouldn't take much of an outbreak to push the system over the edge.
Or the hospitals become overwhelmed by everyone with a cough running to the hospital and clogging up the system because of the mass hysteria caused by the media.
Post by: louisstamos on March 10, 2020, 03:48:00 PM
https://www.freshdaily.ca/news/2020/03/cocaine-does-not-protect-against-coronavirus/
Post by: Highlander on March 10, 2020, 03:50:40 PM
This Virus will get into a lot of old folks homes and run rampant on the elderly (like in Seattle). Won't help the hospitals with people with all types of conditions, if this Virus contaminates those institutions.
4 migrants where found in the back of a truck in N.E. England that drove there from Italy and all were found to have the virus. First thing they have done is whisk them down to the Princess Diana Hospital in Grimsby, where my wife's father is with pneumonia and other problems. Nice.
Post by: Highlander on March 10, 2020, 03:52:06 PM
This is unfortunate...Funny ;D
https://www.freshdaily.ca/news/2020/03/cocaine-does-not-protect-against-coronavirus/
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 04:02:42 PM
I don't necessarily believe it's the end of the world but things may get to the point where I don't want to have to go out and expose myself if the illness becomes widespread. The one big concern is that hospitals become overwhelmed and you have nowhere to go if you really need treatment. Here in the US hospitals regularly operate at over 90% capacity and I think I saw recently that they were at 96% because of the heavy flu season. Wouldn't take much of an outbreak to push the system over the edge.
Or the hospitals become overwhelmed by everyone with a cough running to the hospital and clogging up the system because of the mass hysteria caused by the media.
I'd rather people get tested and quarantine the few than not test and allow people to start spreading amongst the community. Then you will have a true crisis on your hands and where the system will be clogged and people will actually be dying. Just ask Italy.
*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 04:08:27 PM
Exactly, they don't want you running to the hospital or clinics, they want you to stay and home and call them for advice if you believe you are symptomatic.
This Virus will get into a lot of old folks homes and run rampant on the elderly (like in Seattle). Won't help the hospitals with people with all types of conditions, if this Virus contaminates those institutions.
4 migrants where found in the back of a truck in N.E. England that drove there from Italy and all were found to have the virus. First thing they have done is whisk them down to the Princess Diana Hospital in Grimsby, where my wife's father is with pneumonia and other problems. Nice.
Didn't know you could drive to N.E. from Italy.
Kidding aside, what's the alternative? Not test and allow more and more exposure at large? I do agree they probably shouldn't just rush them off to the nearest hospital if they can help it and do testing elsewhere. They should probably have roadside testing (like Germany) or some such as to avoid taking people to hospitals where they can cross contaminate, but are you seriously blaming people who are ill and getting tested for the problem rather than a really shitty rollout of testing by the government? The U.S. has horribly botched this thing so far, and the virus is going to be there whether you like it or not. If it's not in the hospital it goes to a school, then a mall, then a sporting event, then to work. And then what?
Post by: bustaheims on March 10, 2020, 04:57:22 PM
*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
Post by: Highlander on March 10, 2020, 05:57:42 PM
Bender, I know you know about the extensive ferry system and no boarders, not blaming anyone but it seems to make sense that people like these 4 poor migrant people should have been taken to a holding centre instead of the main city hospital.Exactly, they don't want you running to the hospital or clinics, they want you to stay and home and call them for advice if you believe you are symptomatic.
This Virus will get into a lot of old folks homes and run rampant on the elderly (like in Seattle). Won't help the hospitals with people with all types of conditions, if this Virus contaminates those institutions.
4 migrants where found in the back of a truck in N.E. England that drove there from Italy and all were found to have the virus. First thing they have done is whisk them down to the Princess Diana Hospital in Grimsby, where my wife's father is with pneumonia and other problems. Nice.
Didn't know you could drive to N.E. from Italy.
Kidding aside, what's the alternative? Not test and allow more and more exposure at large? I do agree they probably shouldn't just rush them off to the nearest hospital if they can help it and do testing elsewhere. They should probably have roadside testing (like Germany) or some such as to avoid taking people to hospitals where they can cross contaminate, but are you seriously blaming people who are ill and getting tested for the problem rather than a really shitty rollout of testing by the government? The U.S. has horribly botched this thing so far, and the virus is going to be there whether you like it or not. If it's not in the hospital it goes to a school, then a mall, then a sporting event, then to work. And then what?
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 06:35:07 PM
We are in agreement, but that has more to do with how the authorities are handling the outbreak doesn't it?Bender, I know you know about the extensive ferry system and no boarders, not blaming anyone but it seems to make sense that people like these 4 poor migrant people should have been taken to a holding centre instead of the main city hospital.Exactly, they don't want you running to the hospital or clinics, they want you to stay and home and call them for advice if you believe you are symptomatic.
This Virus will get into a lot of old folks homes and run rampant on the elderly (like in Seattle). Won't help the hospitals with people with all types of conditions, if this Virus contaminates those institutions.
4 migrants where found in the back of a truck in N.E. England that drove there from Italy and all were found to have the virus. First thing they have done is whisk them down to the Princess Diana Hospital in Grimsby, where my wife's father is with pneumonia and other problems. Nice.
Didn't know you could drive to N.E. from Italy.
Kidding aside, what's the alternative? Not test and allow more and more exposure at large? I do agree they probably shouldn't just rush them off to the nearest hospital if they can help it and do testing elsewhere. They should probably have roadside testing (like Germany) or some such as to avoid taking people to hospitals where they can cross contaminate, but are you seriously blaming people who are ill and getting tested for the problem rather than a really shitty rollout of testing by the government? The U.S. has horribly botched this thing so far, and the virus is going to be there whether you like it or not. If it's not in the hospital it goes to a school, then a mall, then a sporting event, then to work. And then what?
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 06:37:58 PM
https://samharris.org/podcasts/190-respond-coronavirus/
Post by: Chris on March 10, 2020, 06:45:05 PM
*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 07:48:08 PM
This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
Post by: Chris on March 10, 2020, 08:00:47 PM
Yeah, I don't know. Italy has an older population and from the stats I've seen, the deaths there so far are very heavily skewed to those greater than 70 (and especially 80). But there are reports coming out now that younger people, in their 40s, are starting to show up in the hospitals with ARDS. So maybe the outbreak there has been going on for longer and the oldest people were getting taken out first and it will now move into younger age groups. If the outbreak started going later in S Korea we might soon see a rapid increase in their death rate. Only time will tell.This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
It's really weird living through this and watching it spread out through the world. Kind of like seeing a storm on the horizon heading your way, you don't know how bad it's going to be and there's not much you can do about it.
Post by: Bender on March 10, 2020, 08:14:20 PM
I know. All I ask is that people who are symptomatic, for the love of God, call their GP, get tested and stay home if sick. That's all I ask.Yeah, I don't know. Italy has an older population and from the stats I've seen, the deaths there so far are very heavily skewed to those greater than 70 (and especially 80). But there are reports coming out now that younger people, in their 40s, are starting to show up in the hospitals with ARDS. So maybe the outbreak there has been going on for longer and the oldest people were getting taken out first and it will now move into younger age groups. If the outbreak started going later in S Korea we might soon see a rapid increase in their death rate. Only time will tell.This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
It's really weird living through this and watching it spread out through the world. Kind of like seeing a storm on the horizon heading your way, you don't know how bad it's going to be and there's not much you can do about it.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 11, 2020, 03:38:10 AM
Quote
“Older age, showing signs of sepsis on admission, underlying diseases like high blood pressure and diabetes, and the prolonged use of non-invasive ventilation were important factors in the deaths of these patients,” said study author Dr Zhibo Liu.
“Poorer outcomes in older people may be due, in part, to the age-related weakening of the immune system and increased inflammation that could promote viral replication and more prolonged responses to inflammation, causing lasting damage to the heart, brain, and other organs.”
One expert added “increased age” is a common risk factor for “nearly all infections”.
Quote
Medical records, treatment data and laboratory results were compared between the survivors of the infection and the deceased.
Using mathematical models, the scientists examined risk factors associated with dying of the infection.
Overall, just under half (48%) of the patients had an underlying condition.
Blood pressure was the most common, making up 30% of the co-morbidities, followed by diabetes at 19%.
The survivors were on average 52 years old, compared to 69 among the deceased.
More here:
https://ca.style.yahoo.com/coronavirus-covid19-risk-factors-death-111552483.html (https://ca.style.yahoo.com/coronavirus-covid19-risk-factors-death-111552483.html)
Many age groups affected in various ways ranging from 30-80:
Quote
The death toll skews old even more strongly. Overall, China CDC found, 2.3% of confirmed cases died. But the fatality rate was 14.8% in people 80 or older, likely reflecting the presence of other diseases, a weaker immune system, or simply worse overall health. By contrast, the fatality rate was 1.3% in 50-somethings, 0.4% in 40-somethings, and 0.2% in people 10 to 39.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/03/who-is-getting-sick-and-how-sick-a-breakdown-of-coronavirus-risk-by-demographic-factors/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/03/who-is-getting-sick-and-how-sick-a-breakdown-of-coronavirus-risk-by-demographic-factors/)
Post by: Highlander on March 11, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
Supposedly the virus is doing much better in cold climates than warm ones. I don't know why but my wife has been immersed in this stuff and she has heard this more than once.This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
Post by: Bender on March 11, 2020, 11:52:33 AM
Supposedly the virus is doing much better in cold climates than warm ones. I don't know why but my wife has been immersed in this stuff and she has heard this more than once.This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
Post by: bustaheims on March 11, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
Neither is most of Italy!
Post by: Highlander on March 11, 2020, 12:43:50 PM
Post by: Nik on March 11, 2020, 12:55:08 PM
Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
Neither is most of Italy!
It's like you guys are doubting that thing that someone heard.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2020, 01:06:11 PM
Quote
Dr. Nancy Messionnier of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, warned against assuming the number of cases will slow as the weather warms. “I think it’s premature to assume that,” she said during a call with reporters on Feb. 12. “We haven’t been through even a single year with this pathogen.”
Other health experts that TIME spoke to agree that it’s too early to say if warmer weather will impact the virus’s spread. McGraw, of Penn State University, says there will likely be many factors that determine when and how the outbreak ends. “Rate of virus spread, effectiveness of infection control practices, weather and human immunity will likely all play a role in determining its future,” she says.
You probably don't need many guesses to know who the loudest proponent of the idea that warm weather will help is.
Post by: L K on March 11, 2020, 01:25:16 PM
Post by: Stebro on March 11, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
Post by: Chris on March 11, 2020, 01:48:36 PM
Post by: princedpw on March 11, 2020, 02:02:49 PM
And this chart shows that Germany, France, UK, US will all become Italy shortly -- the infections in those countries just spread a little later than than they did to Italy. The US is 11.5 days behind.
?fbclid=IwAR054OhXXGLW7ecx4_1kPmhh2uNiin5mAz4ssiR43rX4dM2B32PICjX86M0Here's the coronavirus data, overlayed with the dates offset by the amounts shown. One of these countries is not like the rest. Everyone else will be Italy in 9-14 days time. pic.twitter.com/VESY54X1gP
— Mark Handley (@MarkJHandley) March 9, 2020
Every event that can be cancelled should be cancelled. Stay home preemptively if you can.
Post by: Arn on March 11, 2020, 03:32:45 PM
Likely the next match the following Friday will also be off. (Average crowds of about 4000 but also quite a lot of older folk in the supporters demographic)
First deaths due to the virus also recorded in Ireland today.
Very disappointed to see the Prime Minuster coming out and saying things like “we should just take it on the chin and let it burn through quickly” when that would very clearly rapidly overwhelm our already stretched health service but that seems to be where we’re at with our leaders at the minute unfortunately.
Post by: Chris on March 11, 2020, 04:48:04 PM
Very disappointed to see the Prime Minuster coming out and saying things like “we should just take it on the chin and let it burn through quickly” when that would very clearly rapidly overwhelm our already stretched health service but that seems to be where we’re at with our leaders at the minute unfortunately.It's a great idea (sarcasm) as long as you don't wind up with pneumonia requiring intense medical care when the hospital system is overwhelmed. And don't even think about having another kind of health emergency such as a heart attack, stroke, etc.
Unfortunately that seems to be the direction the US is headed. Lackadaisical response, minimal testing, denial. Kind of what I expected, though I hoped I would be wrong.
Post by: Highlander on March 11, 2020, 05:19:29 PM
Again not advocating anything, I should not have posted what my wife had read. However Rome and Tehran have very similar climates, low 40 F at night into the low 50's during the day. Wuhan is a bit warmer at this point with a balmy 63F today.Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
Neither is most of Italy!
It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out in Tropical areas.
Post by: Highlander on March 11, 2020, 05:20:53 PM
Looks like the U.K is going into a complete lockdown like Italy.Again not advocating anything, I should not have posted what my wife had read. However Rome and Tehran have very similar climates, low 40 F at night into the low 50's during the day. Wuhan is a bit warmer at this point with a balmy 63F today.Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
Neither is most of Italy!
It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out in Tropical areas.
Post by: Arn on March 11, 2020, 06:50:32 PM
Looks like the U.K is going into a complete lockdown like Italy.
Source? Cos I live here and that’s definitely not what’s happening at the minute. (Although it probably should be)
Edit: there’s a meeting of the government task force COBRA tomorrow to decide whether to move from contain to delay phase. That only allows for “social distancing” (school closures, working from home). It doesn’t mean there will necessarily be any...
Post by: Arn on March 11, 2020, 06:58:36 PM
Very disappointed to see the Prime Minuster coming out and saying things like “we should just take it on the chin and let it burn through quickly” when that would very clearly rapidly overwhelm our already stretched health service but that seems to be where we’re at with our leaders at the minute unfortunately.It's a great idea (sarcasm) as long as you don't wind up with pneumonia requiring intense medical care when the hospital system is overwhelmed. And don't even think about having another kind of health emergency such as a heart attack, stroke, etc.
Unfortunately that seems to be the direction the US is headed. Lackadaisical response, minimal testing, denial. Kind of what I expected, though I hoped I would be wrong.
Without wanting to get too political on a thread about a serious illness, it will be interesting to see if the similar (lack of) reaction from the leadership of the two countries could lead to a downfall of that leadership.
I suspect that may depend on how the numbers of illnesses and deaths play out over the next couple of months
Post by: Stebro on March 11, 2020, 07:32:56 PM
Post by: Chris on March 11, 2020, 08:16:27 PM
Some of the western countries share one problem, which is very few hospital beds per capita. Sweden only have 2,22/capita, Canada and The UK have about 2,5/capita, compared to for example Japan that have over 13/capita. Several experts here in Sweden says that if we get a lot of serious cases, we wont be able to handle it well.I read recently that the US system is currently at 96% full. Part of that is the length/severe flu (or maybe flu+coronavirus) season but still normally nearly full. Empty beds don't make any money so there is little spare capacity built into the system.
Could get ugly here in a hurry, especially major metropolitan areas like NYC, Seattle, etc.
Post by: Bates on March 11, 2020, 09:42:33 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2020, 09:43:27 PM
NBA season cancelled.
Suspended, not cancelled.
Post by: Bates on March 11, 2020, 09:54:23 PM
NBA season cancelled.
Suspended, not cancelled.
Whoops yes I will be correct in a few weeks at worst.
Post by: Guilt Trip on March 11, 2020, 10:29:07 PM
Post by: Nik on March 11, 2020, 11:01:37 PM
NBA season cancelled.
I guess this means the Raptors will be reigning champs for years!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 12, 2020, 12:00:32 AM
So the whole #Raptors team is among six NBA squads that are apparently now self-quarantined ... Raptors did a Big Brothers bowling event tonight. https://t.co/abPqI4VPBP
— Stephen Wickens (@StephenWickens1) March 12, 2020
Post by: Highlander on March 12, 2020, 01:17:01 PM
With everything that’s happening about the Coronavirus, it might be very hard to make a decision of what to do today. Should you wait for more information? Do something today? What?
Here’s what I’m going to cover in this article, with lots of charts, data and models with plenty of sources:
How many cases of coronavirus will there be in your area?
What will happen when these cases materialize?
What should you do?
When?
When you’re done reading the article, this is what you’ll take away:
The coronavirus is coming to you.
It’s coming at an exponential speed: gradually, and then suddenly.
It’s a matter of days. Maybe a week or two.
When it does, your healthcare system will be overwhelmed.
Your fellow citizens will be treated in the hallways.
Exhausted healthcare workers will break down. Some will die.
They will have to decide which patient gets the oxygen and which one dies.
The only way to prevent this is social distancing today. Not tomorrow. Today.
That means keeping as many people home as possible, starting now.
As a politician, community leader or business leader, you have the power and the responsibility to prevent this.
You might have fears today: What if I overreact? Will people laugh at me? Will they be angry at me? Will I look stupid? Won’t it be better to wait for others to take steps first? Will I hurt the economy too much?
But in 2–4 weeks, when the entire world is in lockdown, when the few precious days of social distancing you will have enabled will have saved lives, people won’t criticize you anymore: They will thank you for making the right decision.
Ok, let’s do this.
Post by: Arn on March 12, 2020, 01:52:52 PM
It’ll be interesting to see how this pays off...
The govt approach to coronavirus is one of the most interesting social experiments of recent times.
— Hugo Gye (@HugoGye) March 12, 2020
If it works: UK avoids shutting down the country, but suffers virus outbreak no worse than elsewhere. Masterstroke.
If not: UK suffers 100s or 1000s of avoidable deaths.
Post by: Highlander on March 12, 2020, 03:28:46 PM
Post by: Rob on March 12, 2020, 04:44:11 PM
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/all-publicly-funded-schools-in-ontario-will-be-closed-for-two-weeks-after-march-break-due-to-covid-19-1.4850653
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 12, 2020, 06:02:42 PM
Now all public schools in Ontario will be closed for two weeks following March Break;It's the right call.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/all-publicly-funded-schools-in-ontario-will-be-closed-for-two-weeks-after-march-break-due-to-covid-19-1.4850653
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 12, 2020, 06:11:57 PM
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/2020/3/12/1_4850159.amp.html (https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/2020/3/12/1_4850159.amp.html)
Compared to what is happening south of the border with Trump & his administration:
https://people.com/politics/what-donald-trump-said-about-coronavirus-his-risk/
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 12, 2020, 06:15:27 PM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/03/12/tom-hanks-coronavirus-actor-has-covid-19-diabetes-heres-risk/5030111002/
Post by: L K on March 13, 2020, 11:34:00 AM
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 13, 2020, 11:44:42 AM
Hey, Trump is still peddling absolute lies and obstructing testing. Good stuff. Oh and the Senate decided they wouldn't vote on a stimulus bill for the Coronavirus and instead took off until Tuesday because Mitch McConnell is a worthless piece of scum.The complete inability of Republicans to deal with this extraordinarily urgent problem certainly highlights how entirely unequipped and unmotivated they are to deal with the long-term urgent problem of climate change.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 13, 2020, 11:53:02 AM
Hey, Trump is still peddling absolute lies and obstructing testing. Good stuff. Oh and the Senate decided they wouldn't vote on a stimulus bill for the Coronavirus and instead took off until Tuesday because Mitch McConnell is a worthless piece of scum.
Don't worry, Jared's on it now:
Karlie Kloss's father asked a Facebook group of ER docs for help combatting the coronavirus. He said he had a "direct channel to person now in charge at White House." Jared had apparently asked him for help. Karlie Kloss is married to Kushner's brother.https://t.co/4zZu6Jw5nv
— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) March 13, 2020
Post by: Bender on March 13, 2020, 02:49:02 PM
Hey, Trump is still peddling absolute lies and obstructing testing. Good stuff. Oh and the Senate decided they wouldn't vote on a stimulus bill for the Coronavirus and instead took off until Tuesday because Mitch McConnell is a worthless piece of scum.
Don't worry, Jared's on it now:Karlie Kloss's father asked a Facebook group of ER docs for help combatting the coronavirus. He said he had a "direct channel to person now in charge at White House." Jared had apparently asked him for help. Karlie Kloss is married to Kushner's brother.https://t.co/4zZu6Jw5nv
— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) March 13, 2020
(https://i.imgur.com/6vUzxX2.gif)
Post by: Arn on March 14, 2020, 12:06:13 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/world/europe/12italy-coronavirus-health-care.html
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 14, 2020, 07:14:13 PM
Quote
A Taiwanese scientist has claimed Chinese microbiologists probably created coronavirus in Wuhan, China.
Based on the virus unusual structure it is most likely “man made” and there is a theory coronavirus was somehow leaked or released from the Institute of Virology in Wuhan China, said Professor Fang Chi-tai from the National Taiwan University (NTU).
Professor Fang said China’s track record with safety standards and laboratory management has been questioned in the past.
The Professor claims it was very possible that the Wuhan Chinese scientists created the deadly virus by simply adding four amino acids to an existing bat virus, which therefore makes it much easier to transmit to people.
Professor Fang added, “The mutations found in the novel coronavirus are unusual in an academic sense.
“It is indeed possible that it is a man-made product.
“From an academic point of view, it is indeed possible that the amino acids were added to COVID-19 in the lab by humans.
Quote
A scientist told how a sick bat attacked the researchers and bled on them and urinated on another, they were then forced to quarantine themselves for 14 days.
Biologists Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao published a pre-print entitled “The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus.”
The report describes how “the killer coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan.
“We noted two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus in Wuhan, one of which was only 280 metres from the seafood market.
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/scientist-says-covid-19-is-man-made-and-was-released-from-wuhan-lab/
Post by: Highlander on March 14, 2020, 09:06:58 PM
Would it not be possible to take this virus or one like it a step further and make it specific for certain races or cultures with diverse biomes or genetic tendencies?
Could create a huge amount of vacated real estate to propagate a nation like China's population. Don't need a war to rule the world perhaps. Just kill your enemies quietly and in huge numbers.
Scary to even think of it.
Post by: Chris on March 14, 2020, 09:18:29 PM
Not something we want to read about but the possibility exists of this scenario to have transpired.Certainly possible that it was a lab leak. How likely, no way of knowing. And the question at this time is, does it really matter? Unless someone in a lab somewhere has a cure or vaccine they're waiting to sell to the world, we have to deal with it the same way whether it's natural or not.
If it is a lab leak, could be a bio-weapon or just a strain they were working with in vaccine development or other basic research. Something to worry about in the future for sure. Now, I just want to avoid getting it if possible.
Post by: Bullfrog on March 15, 2020, 12:16:44 AM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 15, 2020, 12:23:26 AM
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2017/03/30/unseen-enemy-excerpt-pandemic-predicted-bird-flu-new.cnn/video/playlists/unseen-enemy/ (https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2017/03/30/unseen-enemy-excerpt-pandemic-predicted-bird-flu-new.cnn/video/playlists/unseen-enemy/)
The encroachment of wetlands (wild animals interact with domestic), larger and larger factory farming as well the fact that our food is more globalized than ever, all contributing factors to the growing influenza problem.
Post by: Stebro on March 15, 2020, 05:12:03 AM
As for the virus I think the strategy in Sweden is to balance on the edge of what the healthcare can handle, the approach here doesn't seem to be as aggresive as many other countries in Europe. The authorities responsible here is facing a lot of crap here and abroad, especially from China, but our relationship is bad. China has asked EU to condemn how Sweden is handling it.
It is thought that the intension in Sweden is to protect risk groups and let others get it to build up more immunity. The scientist in me says that it's the right approach, the human in me says it's the wrong approach.
I just read that it is a part of the strategy that people get it, but they try to control it so it goes slowely, it is believed that another wave will hit in the autumn, and the strategy then is to have as much immunity in the population as possible.
The authorities say that if we lock everything down now and another wave of the virus hit us in the autumn without immunity we will have the exact same problem as now.
As for the virus being man made I've got a friend who knows someone here who is analyzing the virus, and according to him the string of the DNA doesn't look natural. Now, I don't know if that means probably man made or something else.
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 15, 2020, 02:34:02 PM
I'm not sure "mild, flu-like symptoms" makes an ideal bio-weapon.
My acquaintance at CSIS says that there is satellite imagery that shows they also have these long wooden boats that have dragon heads at the bow. Also their army is armed with these rifles that can fire this metal pellet, a beebee if you will, 300 meters per second. That'll put your eye out.
Post by: Bender on March 15, 2020, 06:58:48 PM
I went to do some grocery shopping here in Stockholm, and people are definately hoarding some items, rice is pretty much gone even in the really big supermarkets.It looks like other coronaviruses, but it is new so it might be somewhat different from what's out there currently. Until an expert says otherwise (which they have not) there is no reason to believe it isn't natural.
As for the virus I think the strategy in Sweden is to balance on the edge of what the healthcare can handle, the approach here doesn't seem to be as aggresive as many other countries in Europe. The authorities responsible here is facing a lot of crap here and abroad, especially from China, but our relationship is bad. China has asked EU to condemn how Sweden is handling it.
It is thought that the intension in Sweden is to protect risk groups and let others get it to build up more immunity. The scientist in me says that it's the right approach, the human in me says it's the wrong approach.
I just read that it is a part of the strategy that people get it, but they try to control it so it goes slowely, it is believed that another wave will hit in the autumn, and the strategy then is to have as much immunity in the population as possible.
The authorities say that if we lock everything down now and another wave of the virus hit us in the autumn without immunity we will have the exact same problem as now.
As for the virus being man made I've got a friend who knows someone here who is analyzing the virus, and according to him the string of the DNA doesn't look natural. Now, I don't know if that means probably man made or something else.
Theres potential it may come back in the winter stronger like Spanish flu but there's no way of knowing that. Trying to control it once it's loose is like letting a thousand lions out at once on an antelope sanctuary. It can and will get out of hand quickly.
Post by: Bender on March 15, 2020, 07:00:42 PM
Ya, it is possible, but what has this taught rouge states like North Korea or the Terrorist nations??? Or Russia?Every epidemiologist in the world who cared about this has been saying this for years. Bioterrorism isn't new - the whole world knows how fragile we are. The issue is the world is so interconnected that to some extent biological warfare is almost not worth it compared to other types of warfare.
Would it not be possible to take this virus or one like it a step further and make it specific for certain races or cultures with diverse biomes or genetic tendencies?
Could create a huge amount of vacated real estate to propagate a nation like China's population. Don't need a war to rule the world perhaps. Just kill your enemies quietly and in huge numbers.
Scary to even think of it.
Post by: Highlander on March 15, 2020, 07:01:12 PM
"What if someone attacks us with pointed sticks". Monty again.I'm not sure "mild, flu-like symptoms" makes an ideal bio-weapon.
My acquaintance at CSIS says that there is satellite imagery that shows they also have these long wooden boats that have dragon heads at the bow. Also their army is armed with these rifles that can fire this metal pellet, a beebee if you will, 300 meters per second. That'll put your eye out.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 16, 2020, 04:00:21 AM
When you see Brian Schatz retweeting Ted Cruz quote-tweeting AOC in agreement you know these are extraordinary times: pic.twitter.com/rZIfH23p04
— Esther Choo, MD MPH (@choo_ek) March 14, 2020
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2020, 09:10:45 AM
I know this will probably fall on deaf ears but is there anyway people could maybe make a concerted effort to not post speculation or whatever sensationalist claims they find out there? Even if some of this stuff is true, you should be asking if repeating it actually helps anyone. If this is a genetically engineered bioweapon that changes...what, practically?
I'm sure there will be plenty of time for conspiracy theories and wild accusations but right now with so many people worried and confined we need to remember that while we're urging people to self-isolate in order for the good of the community and our physical health, we also have a responsibility to look after each other's mental well-being. Paranoia, panic, the instinct to find scapegoats...none of these things are productive now and they especially won't be if things get worse.
Post by: Arn on March 16, 2020, 09:33:52 AM
I know this will probably fall on deaf ears but is there anyway people could maybe make a concerted effort to not post speculation or whatever sensationalist claims they find out there? Even if some of this stuff is true, you should be asking if repeating it actually helps anyone. If this is a genetically engineered bioweapon that changes...what, practically?
I'm sure there will be plenty of time for conspiracy theories and wild accusations but right now with so many people worried and confined we need to remember that while we're urging people to self-isolate in order for the good of the community and our physical health, we also have a responsibility to look after each other's mental well-being. Paranoia, panic, the instinct to find scapegoats...none of these things are productive now and they especially won't be if things get worse.
Agreed. This isn't just an issue for this forum, but this is a pretty grave situation that is morphing at a very quick pace. The actual facts are scary enough without all the other rubbish that seems to be fuelled by social media in particular.
It just goes to show whatever way you look at it, it’s all just a bit mad. We think as a society we’re fairly well developed and pretty safe then every now and then along comes something like a crazy virus to put us back in our box.
Post by: princedpw on March 16, 2020, 12:46:27 PM
Supposedly the virus is doing much better in cold climates than warm ones. I don't know why but my wife has been immersed in this stuff and she has heard this more than once.This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
[EDIT: Ok, reading further, a bunch of other people said the same thing .... sorry ...]
I have an epidemiologist friend who is posting lots on Facebook. Most coronaviruses have this property of doing better in cold, dry air than in warm, humid air. However, I don't think it is quite clear yet how closely this one follows that trend.
Post by: Highlander on March 16, 2020, 01:37:38 PM
Agreed, I will stop posting on this subject, made it across the border yesterday and was told for us to self isolate for 2 weeks. I wish you all the best everyone. Keep washing your hands.
I know this will probably fall on deaf ears but is there anyway people could maybe make a concerted effort to not post speculation or whatever sensationalist claims they find out there? Even if some of this stuff is true, you should be asking if repeating it actually helps anyone. If this is a genetically engineered bioweapon that changes...what, practically?
I'm sure there will be plenty of time for conspiracy theories and wild accusations but right now with so many people worried and confined we need to remember that while we're urging people to self-isolate in order for the good of the community and our physical health, we also have a responsibility to look after each other's mental well-being. Paranoia, panic, the instinct to find scapegoats...none of these things are productive now and they especially won't be if things get worse.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 16, 2020, 01:42:45 PM
I know this will probably fall on deaf ears but is there anyway people could maybe make a concerted effort to not post speculation or whatever sensationalist claims they find out there? Even if some of this stuff is true, you should be asking if repeating it actually helps anyone. If this is a genetically engineered bioweapon that changes...what, practically?
I'm sure there will be plenty of time for conspiracy theories and wild accusations but right now with so many people worried and confined we need to remember that while we're urging people to self-isolate in order for the good of the community and our physical health, we also have a responsibility to look after each other's mental well-being. Paranoia, panic, the instinct to find scapegoats...none of these things are productive now and they especially won't be if things get worse.
Agreed. This isn't just an issue for this forum, but this is a pretty grave situation that is morphing at a very quick pace. The actual facts are scary enough without all the other rubbish that seems to be fuelled by social media in particular.
It just goes to show whatever way you look at it, it’s all just a bit mad. We think as a society we’re fairly well developed and pretty safe then every now and then along comes something like a crazy virus to put us back in our box.
Whether this virus is man-made or not, it still doesn’t exclude the fact that it is something society and science has never seen before. During the SARS outbreak here in Toronto, then microbiologist Dr. Donald Low identified that the virus had no known human strain which in effect, he believed it to be man-made.
It doesn’t hurt to speak about the possibility of it as being a potential bio weapon. This isn’t some airy fairy idea just the possibility that it could be.
Don’t think that people out there aren’t thinking of that as well. This crosses the minds of many but of course, there’s nothing we can do now that it’s here, whether it is or it isn’t a deliberate or by design man-made disease.
Social media is not the go-to place for information. The reason why I posted possibility of it as being a potential ‘weaponized’ virus (not from social media) is because of some facts uncovered about the AIDS virus by the late Donald Scott, founder of the Common Cause Medical Research Foundation:
http://www.illnessstrategies.ca/common-cause-medical-research-foundation.html (http://www.illnessstrategies.ca/common-cause-medical-research-foundation.html)
Alright, enough posting about the what if and whatnots. Let’s just be practical by using prudency as outlined by public health officials. And please, people, no more hoarding of supplies.
Everyone stay safe and stay well.
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 16, 2020, 02:16:41 PM
I know this will probably fall on deaf ears but is there anyway people could maybe make a concerted effort to not post speculation or whatever sensationalist claims they find out there? Even if some of this stuff is true, you should be asking if repeating it actually helps anyone. If this is a genetically engineered bioweapon that changes...what, practically?
I'm sure there will be plenty of time for conspiracy theories and wild accusations but right now with so many people worried and confined we need to remember that while we're urging people to self-isolate in order for the good of the community and our physical health, we also have a responsibility to look after each other's mental well-being. Paranoia, panic, the instinct to find scapegoats...none of these things are productive now and they especially won't be if things get worse.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. My wife and I live in the Seattle area. We're both healthcare providers, and she works at Evergreen Hospital in Kirkland where this whole thing broke out on the west coast, so it's pretty close to home for us. At this point people have lost their ever loving minds here. I was in a grocery store on Friday, and a lady with a cart actually broke into a terrified sprint when she saw me walking behind her. I wanted to tell her the crap she had in her cart was going to be her undoing, but by that time she was across the store.
I wish people would chill with the alarmist nonsense (here, not necessarily the forums). It serves no other purpose than to act as a panic multiplier in a time when people need to keep their heads and support each other.
Post by: L K on March 16, 2020, 03:51:18 PM
1 - Employers still demanding sick notes
2 - Our hospital administration worried about dress codes that do not pertain to any form of infection control
3 - People showing up to the ER for rashes you have had for "months"
4 - People getting upset and demanding immediate access to pirmary care during a pandemic and upset you are't getting your way by yelling
Please respect your neighbours. Don't go out in large groups. Don't horde supplies at home, particularly for things that are grossly irrelevant to the current health conditions. With luck we can all look back on this in 2 months and breath a great big sigh of relief at how much of a non-issue it all ended up being but right now we need to stay the course on limiting exposures.
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2020, 04:01:02 PM
It doesn’t hurt to speak about the possibility of it as being a potential bio weapon.
It doesn't help, and that's more important.
If it doesn't help, don't spread it.
Post by: Frank E on March 16, 2020, 05:57:40 PM
Working today and here is my list of gripes so far:
1 - Employers still demanding sick notes
*snip
Just a little context here...I have spent most of the day discussing with local business owners and lawyers on exactly how people can claim for EI while self-isolating, and the feds have yet to update even their own MP's on this.
The suggestion from Ford (province) was that the sick note was not necessary for you to stay home and keep your job. Cool, we employers don't have any problem with this.
The problem is the feds still require some documentation be kept by people in order to claim sick leave to get EI. They've waived the 1 week waiting period, but that's it. Hence, people are still trying to get sick notes.
At this point, the consensus from the lawyers suggests that we simply generate the ROE (record of employment) and have employees claim "sick leave" even without a doctor's note.
Just giving you a little background on that problem, LK. You've got your hands full, for sure, so stay safe!
Post by: Arn on March 16, 2020, 06:57:27 PM
It doesn’t hurt to speak about the possibility of it as being a potential bio weapon.
It doesn't help, and that's more important.
If it doesn't help, don't spread it.
I would love a “like” function purely for this post.
Anywho in other news, the U.K. government looks a bit silly for a change
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-strategy-deaths
Post by: L K on March 16, 2020, 07:19:57 PM
It doesn’t hurt to speak about the possibility of it as being a potential bio weapon.
It doesn't help, and that's more important.
If it doesn't help, don't spread it.
I would love a “like” function purely for this post.
Anywho in other news, the U.K. government looks a bit silly for a change
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-strategy-deaths
The UK approach to generate herd immunity really would work. You just have to accepting of mass casualties in the process. If this was a condition that we could guarantee that COVID-19 will be an annual disease there is maybe some argument for having these kinds of ethical heavy discussions but their approach has been pitiful to say the least.
Post by: L K on March 16, 2020, 07:22:20 PM
Working today and here is my list of gripes so far:
1 - Employers still demanding sick notes
*snip
Just a little context here...I have spent most of the day discussing with local business owners and lawyers on exactly how people can claim for EI while self-isolating, and the feds have yet to update even their own MP's on this.
The suggestion from Ford (province) was that the sick note was not necessary for you to stay home and keep your job. Cool, we employers don't have any problem with this.
The problem is the feds still require some documentation be kept by people in order to claim sick leave to get EI. They've waived the 1 week waiting period, but that's it. Hence, people are still trying to get sick notes.
At this point, the consensus from the lawyers suggests that we simply generate the ROE (record of employment) and have employees claim "sick leave" even without a doctor's note.
Just giving you a little background on that problem, LK. You've got your hands full, for sure, so stay safe!
No its a fair account and I do understand it in principle. It was more the nature of the individuals who were sent in. I have been pretty hard line with the tone on my stock note I have handed out and had a heated discussion with one employer who was more concerned about people taking advantage of him. That was really where my gripe came from. If there is any fault in this I think it really does lie in the Ford Government not having legislation ready to go to clarify this stuff as soon as they declared the degree of restrictions. This wasn't a plan that came out of nowhere. They dragged their feet to implement social isolation and quarantines so they had plenty of time to navigate things for a smoother transition.
Post by: Frank E on March 16, 2020, 07:37:49 PM
Working today and here is my list of gripes so far:
1 - Employers still demanding sick notes
*snip
Just a little context here...I have spent most of the day discussing with local business owners and lawyers on exactly how people can claim for EI while self-isolating, and the feds have yet to update even their own MP's on this.
The suggestion from Ford (province) was that the sick note was not necessary for you to stay home and keep your job. Cool, we employers don't have any problem with this.
The problem is the feds still require some documentation be kept by people in order to claim sick leave to get EI. They've waived the 1 week waiting period, but that's it. Hence, people are still trying to get sick notes.
At this point, the consensus from the lawyers suggests that we simply generate the ROE (record of employment) and have employees claim "sick leave" even without a doctor's note.
Just giving you a little background on that problem, LK. You've got your hands full, for sure, so stay safe!
No its a fair account and I do understand it in principle. It was more the nature of the individuals who were sent in. I have been pretty hard line with the tone on my stock note I have handed out and had a heated discussion with one employer who was more concerned about people taking advantage of him. That was really where my gripe came from. If there is any fault in this I think it really does lie in the Ford Government not having legislation ready to go to clarify this stuff as soon as they declared the degree of restrictions. This wasn't a plan that came out of nowhere. They dragged their feet to implement social isolation and quarantines so they had plenty of time to navigate things for a smoother transition.
Love you brother, and really you all on the front lines of this deserve to be recognized...but EI is a federal thing, and although I believe that Trudeau is exhibiting a very calm response to this, they haven't clarified some of this stuff for employers, and you're therefore not getting the relief from this sort of crap that you most certainly need.
I'm no Ford guy, but given these unprecedented circumstances, political affiliations have no place.
The federal government needs to assure everyone that they can stay home under certain circumstances, and not worry about getting the government assistance that we all pay into. The province can help, but they don't administrate EI.
Many employers are really just trying to stay in business over the next little while, we have a responsibility to ensure that all employees will have a job to come back to. Everyone please understand our stresses as well. We really do care about the people we work with everyday...at least most of do.
Post by: Stebro on March 16, 2020, 07:49:54 PM
Let's say that we lock everything down now, fewer might get the virus, but fewer will develop immunity, and if a second wave of the virus hits in the autumn, then you may have to start all over with locking everything down and isolating a lot of people again, and no one knows how long it will take to develop the vaccine. No matter what I hope that every country get out of this with as few deaths as possible. There are too many unknown factors in this situation, so it's difficult to know what's right and what's wrong. Just to put this in some context, the regular flu kill about 300.000 people per year worldwide.
Post by: Bender on March 16, 2020, 08:40:15 PM
It's not clear yet because it's a "novel" coronavirus. We're learning on the fly right now.Supposedly the virus is doing much better in cold climates than warm ones. I don't know why but my wife has been immersed in this stuff and she has heard this more than once.This is also highly dependant on public policy and social custom and a number of variables. How else do you explain Italy's high rate and Korea's low one? I don't think you can use one country in isolation in analysing this.*Edit: Also just to clarify, I agree people shouldn't "run" to hospitals and should call and see if they can get tested offsite, but I don't think a 3% kill rate is "mass hysteria caused by the media." This is entirely on individuals who should do their damn due diligence and call their GP and ask what they should do and if it makes sense to get tested, and hopefully the test is offsite from a hospital.
If that turns out to be the true mortality rate, then, no, it's not hysteria at all - not with how easy it can spread. The problem is we may not know the true mortality rate for some time - if ever - as a significant number of people who may have contracted the virus will/were never be tested. For a lot of the population, COVID-19 can present similar to a normal cold. There could be thousands of unreported cases out there, which would significantly drive down the mortality rate.
There's lots we really don't know. There were reports coming out of Wuhan back in February that huge numbers of people had died. I saw videos with bodies laying in the streets. There were videos from hospitals with patients lined up through the corridors barely able to breath, with dead bodies on the floor, some in body bags. Reports that crematoriums were unable to keep up. Many think the true death toll in Wuhan was at least 10x what was reported, maybe even more than that. China shut down all those reports by "disappearing" people who were sending out that info. Of course, the true number of minor or asymptomatic cases might be much higher than we think.
I believe South Korea will give us the best info about the overall severity of the virus. They've done vast amounts of testing and presumably identified many more cases, covering a broad range of severity, compared to other countries. Right now their death rate looks very low but it will probably creep up since the disease course is often several weeks. They've identified 7500 case but only about 250 are listed as "recovered" versus 58 deaths. We'll see where that goes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-are-koreas-covid-19-death-rates-so-low/
Wuhan & Tehran aren't cold though. I don't know how we have enough information to extrapolate that yet.
[EDIT: Ok, reading further, a bunch of other people said the same thing .... sorry ...]
I have an epidemiologist friend who is posting lots on Facebook. Most coronaviruses have this property of doing better in cold, dry air than in warm, humid air. However, I don't think it is quite clear yet how closely this one follows that trend.
Post by: Bender on March 16, 2020, 08:43:54 PM
I think that honestly no one knows what the best strategy is. Now The UK and Sweden differs from the rest of the EU. The intention is try to have a controlled spread of the virus, which is why the two countries do things later than the rest, the strategy is to try to protect the risk groups while trying to make sure that the healthcare get more cases early on in the spread to make sure you don't get a lot at a very short time, while trying to build up immunity. There is a risk with not building up immunity now.I think it takes a massive amount of hubris to believe you can selectively control an epidemic.
Let's say that we lock everything down now, fewer might get the virus, but fewer will develop immunity, and if a second wave of the virus hits in the autumn, then you may have to start all over with locking everything down and isolating a lot of people again, and no one knows how long it will take to develop the vaccine. No matter what I hope that every country get out of this with as few deaths as possible. There are too many unknown factors in this situation, so it's difficult to know what's right and what's wrong. Just to put this in some context, the regular flu kill about 300.000 people per year worldwide.
Post by: Bender on March 16, 2020, 09:09:04 PM
I sincerely hope this thing doesn't become an annual virus. RE: Quick herd immunity, I'd rather wait it out and hope for a vaccine or at least a decent anti-viral treatment to stop from getting pneumonia.It doesn’t hurt to speak about the possibility of it as being a potential bio weapon.
It doesn't help, and that's more important.
If it doesn't help, don't spread it.
I would love a “like” function purely for this post.
Anywho in other news, the U.K. government looks a bit silly for a change
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/coronavirus-uk-strategy-deaths
The UK approach to generate herd immunity really would work. You just have to accepting of mass casualties in the process. If this was a condition that we could guarantee that COVID-19 will be an annual disease there is maybe some argument for having these kinds of ethical heavy discussions but their approach has been pitiful to say the least.
Post by: L K on March 16, 2020, 09:32:43 PM
I think that honestly no one knows what the best strategy is. Now The UK and Sweden differs from the rest of the EU. The intention is try to have a controlled spread of the virus, which is why the two countries do things later than the rest, the strategy is to try to protect the risk groups while trying to make sure that the healthcare get more cases early on in the spread to make sure you don't get a lot at a very short time, while trying to build up immunity. There is a risk with not building up immunity now.I think it takes a massive amount of hubris to believe you can selectively control an epidemic.
Let's say that we lock everything down now, fewer might get the virus, but fewer will develop immunity, and if a second wave of the virus hits in the autumn, then you may have to start all over with locking everything down and isolating a lot of people again, and no one knows how long it will take to develop the vaccine. No matter what I hope that every country get out of this with as few deaths as possible. There are too many unknown factors in this situation, so it's difficult to know what's right and what's wrong. Just to put this in some context, the regular flu kill about 300.000 people per year worldwide.
What we can say is that by not quarantining now, hundreds and thousands of people WILL die. We buy time to avoid overrun ICUs and hospitals. Coming into this week my local hospital was running at 126% capacity. This is before the quarantine recommendations. This is before we have really started getting legitimate cases requiring ICU stays. My closest referral centre is also running at over 100% capacity and does this routinely. We are desperately trying to get patients stuck in hospital beds awaiting LTC facility out of the hospital and into open community beds with little relief.
Protection isn't going to advance a herd immunity but it will save lives today and give us an opportunity to prevent an overrun healthcare system where not only COVID cases face potential mortality but all of the other influenza, heart failure, MI, pneumonia and conventional sick patients to still have an ICU bed to potentially be admitted to.
Goals of having a vaccine around in August or September are optimistic, but we honestly don't know if we will see a second wave of Corona this fall, or whether we will get reprieve from it between now and then. We do know that the potential for profound morbidity is a reality today however.
Post by: L K on March 16, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
Working today and here is my list of gripes so far:
1 - Employers still demanding sick notes
*snip
Just a little context here...I have spent most of the day discussing with local business owners and lawyers on exactly how people can claim for EI while self-isolating, and the feds have yet to update even their own MP's on this.
The suggestion from Ford (province) was that the sick note was not necessary for you to stay home and keep your job. Cool, we employers don't have any problem with this.
The problem is the feds still require some documentation be kept by people in order to claim sick leave to get EI. They've waived the 1 week waiting period, but that's it. Hence, people are still trying to get sick notes.
At this point, the consensus from the lawyers suggests that we simply generate the ROE (record of employment) and have employees claim "sick leave" even without a doctor's note.
Just giving you a little background on that problem, LK. You've got your hands full, for sure, so stay safe!
No its a fair account and I do understand it in principle. It was more the nature of the individuals who were sent in. I have been pretty hard line with the tone on my stock note I have handed out and had a heated discussion with one employer who was more concerned about people taking advantage of him. That was really where my gripe came from. If there is any fault in this I think it really does lie in the Ford Government not having legislation ready to go to clarify this stuff as soon as they declared the degree of restrictions. This wasn't a plan that came out of nowhere. They dragged their feet to implement social isolation and quarantines so they had plenty of time to navigate things for a smoother transition.
Love you brother, and really you all on the front lines of this deserve to be recognized...but EI is a federal thing, and although I believe that Trudeau is exhibiting a very calm response to this, they haven't clarified some of this stuff for employers, and you're therefore not getting the relief from this sort of crap that you most certainly need.
I'm no Ford guy, but given these unprecedented circumstances, political affiliations have no place.
The federal government needs to assure everyone that they can stay home under certain circumstances, and not worry about getting the government assistance that we all pay into. The province can help, but they don't administrate EI.
Many employers are really just trying to stay in business over the next little while, we have a responsibility to ensure that all employees will have a job to come back to. Everyone please understand our stresses as well. We really do care about the people we work with everyday...at least most of do.
Nope you are right. I haven't targeted my disdain at Trudeau's handling of this much either. It's a Federal and Provincial failure for not being better mobilized in dealing with this. The profound inconsistency within provincial health agencies, the lack of guidance for employers and employees on what to do. Ford getting up and guaranteeing people who stay home will still have a job. It's just an impossible goal. Trudeau sat on his hands weeks ago when preparations could have been made and did nothing.
Post by: #1PilarFan on March 17, 2020, 12:25:31 AM
Post by: Zee on March 17, 2020, 08:36:05 AM
Post by: Nik on March 17, 2020, 10:34:44 AM
I really hope direct and immediate assistance can go out to some of these affected businesses. The margins in the restaurant industry are thin at the best of times, losing a month of business could put a lot of them under.
There are going to be a lot of people who need food delivered, a lot of restaurants that need business. I really would hope we could figure out a way to, for the time being, bring those two things together via public planning.
Post by: Stebro on March 17, 2020, 11:42:46 AM
*People over 70 are recommended to isolate
*Cinemas, gyms, sporting events etc are not taking place
*The strategy of the authorities is to protect the health care and risk groups at all costs
*Authorities have worked together with different companies here to try to increase the output of a lot of the equipment we need that we can manufacture here, we also have an active dialog with Italy to quickly try to send more respirators over there, but it's difficult because the companies must increase the capacity quickly and educate staff
*Students both in Sweden and abroad will get all their financial aid whether they study or not, so they don't have to worry about it
*The state is paying for all sick leave starting with the first day. Usually you pay for the first one yourself but that is no longer the case
*All people who feel sick, even if just a little should stay home, no exceptions
*Starting from tomorrow all high schools and universities will be shut down. A change in the law is needed to do something about pre-school etc, the law is expected to go through on thursday, and then all schools can get shut down. All schools have been prepared for education over the internet instead.
*The government announced a package of 300 billion swedish kronor (roughly 30 billion us dollars) to help companies out. Different deals have been proposed for example workers may go down from 100% to 60% or so but get 90% pay, and the government will pay for the difference between 60% and 90%, this is just temporarly though. Exact models have not been decided yet though.
*The central bank here can loan around 500 billion swedish kronor to companies in need
*Different type of taxes related to staff can be delayed to protect the companies
*Tents for testing have been put up around big hospitals, the healthcare is increasing their capacity as much as they can for intensive care patients
*We do not have enough test kits right now, and the tests we have are being focused on those who work within the healthcare, risk groups as well as the ones who come into the emergency room
*People who can work from home are recommended to do so
*The government have promised to help banks out if it is needed, banks have also been advised to be very generous with mortages etc if people get into payment issues due to this situation
*The government also announced that they will make funding available to Scandinavian Airlines as a loan.
*Sweden in shutting down the borders completely
At the moment we are doing "ok", but the intensity is expected to increase by a lot within a few weeks. Some calculations have been made and if it goes as "expected" we may be out of hospital beds by the mid/end of April for intensive care, and then the healthcare have to decide who lives and who doesn't basically. So a lot of the focus here is on increasing the capacity.
Since people in general have been hoarding it's created issues for the health care with certain items. In general I think that a lot of swedes stay home whether they belong to a risk group or not. One big question now is also how to take care of the kids of parents who work in the healthcare without risking old people if we were to shut down all schools. We have 8 deaths so far, all of them have been old people with other diseases as well.
Stockholm is pretty much quiet, people are avoiding shopping centres etc to a very big degree, it almost looks like a ghost town, not a lot of people are commuting either. What bothers me is some people who frankly just are ignorant or dumb. I follow a lot of big papers here, and there are still some people who ask if they should stay home from work if they have a fever etc.
Post by: Stebro on March 17, 2020, 01:21:00 PM
I don't think it's hubris, and it's a different strategy of tackling the curve, not to gain full immunity, I think it's just difficult decisions being made in difficult times. Let's say that you lock down the entire country and very few gets the virus, and you have no immunity, and it hits again in the autumn or winter when it will be worse for countries like Sweden and Canada due to the cold, then you may be worse off, because you will likely not have a vaccine, and then you will have to go over the exact same thing again. The only advantage is that you may have more time to prepare the healthcare for another round. But looking at stats from Italy and China, around 15-40% who get icu treatment still die, but yeah locking more things down might give us more time to understand the virus. Several experts have also gone out and said that the actions that several countries are taking are political and not scientific. I don't know what's the best thing to do now, I just hope that all of the planet do as well as possible.I think that honestly no one knows what the best strategy is. Now The UK and Sweden differs from the rest of the EU. The intention is try to have a controlled spread of the virus, which is why the two countries do things later than the rest, the strategy is to try to protect the risk groups while trying to make sure that the healthcare get more cases early on in the spread to make sure you don't get a lot at a very short time, while trying to build up immunity. There is a risk with not building up immunity now.I think it takes a massive amount of hubris to believe you can selectively control an epidemic.
Let's say that we lock everything down now, fewer might get the virus, but fewer will develop immunity, and if a second wave of the virus hits in the autumn, then you may have to start all over with locking everything down and isolating a lot of people again, and no one knows how long it will take to develop the vaccine. No matter what I hope that every country get out of this with as few deaths as possible. There are too many unknown factors in this situation, so it's difficult to know what's right and what's wrong. Just to put this in some context, the regular flu kill about 300.000 people per year worldwide.
Post by: Bender on March 17, 2020, 01:21:59 PM
Post by: Stebro on March 17, 2020, 01:34:08 PM
Are they recommending everyone to socially distance themselves?in Sweden? If so, depends really, on buses and trains, they've recommended to keep a distance. They've recommended to not have large gatherings, parties or something similar. When i'm out I don't see any big groups, most people seem to keep away a bit, so based on what I see people in general seem to understand that they should keep away from eachother. I predict that all schools will be shut down this week, but i'm not sure. The one leading the "expert" authority here on the matter has been under a lot of fire not only in Sweden but abroad as well for not taking more aggressive actions, but he has also been praised by other countries for being more scientific and not giving into policy, which makes me a bit confused. One thing that makes it complicated here is that the authorities here in Sweden are independent, so the courts etc can not be controlled by the government. The government with the current laws can not decide to shut down all school for example.
Post by: Bender on March 17, 2020, 01:46:48 PM
Are they recommending everyone to socially distance themselves?in Sweden? If so, depends really, on buses and trains, they've recommended to keep a distance. They've recommended to not have large gatherings, parties or something similar. When i'm out I don't see any big groups, most people seem to keep away a bit, so based on what I see people in general seem to understand that they should keep away from eachother. I predict that all schools will be shut down this week, but i'm not sure. The one leading the "expert" authority here on the matter has been under a lot of fire not only in Sweden but abroad as well for not taking more aggressive actions, but he has also been praised by other countries for being more scientific and not giving into policy, which makes me a bit confused. One thing that makes it complicated here is that the authorities here in Sweden are independent, so the courts etc can not be controlled by the government. The government with the current laws can not decide to shut down all school for example.
I find that so bizarre. Anyone working in epidemiology I've listened to thus far has said speed is of utmost importance and the perfect is the enemy of the good. We'll see what happens but this ain't no picnic for young people, and many young people like myself also have underlying conditions, which I think is missing from that equation.
Post by: Stebro on March 17, 2020, 01:52:03 PM
Rumour has it that they will vote on a law on thursday and shut down all schools starting from monday. There are things I can be critical of here, one thing is only talking about old people. My sister's daughter has a very serious condition and she is still in school, which makes me worried and my sister furious. They talk about protecting all risk groups, but haven't focused on the younger with underlying conditions, which I don't support. Personally I try to keep a distance to people, I feel fine but you never know and both of my parents are 70+ so I might have to do some grocery shopping, we talk on the phone every day just to be sure.Are they recommending everyone to socially distance themselves?in Sweden? If so, depends really, on buses and trains, they've recommended to keep a distance. They've recommended to not have large gatherings, parties or something similar. When i'm out I don't see any big groups, most people seem to keep away a bit, so based on what I see people in general seem to understand that they should keep away from eachother. I predict that all schools will be shut down this week, but i'm not sure. The one leading the "expert" authority here on the matter has been under a lot of fire not only in Sweden but abroad as well for not taking more aggressive actions, but he has also been praised by other countries for being more scientific and not giving into policy, which makes me a bit confused. One thing that makes it complicated here is that the authorities here in Sweden are independent, so the courts etc can not be controlled by the government. The government with the current laws can not decide to shut down all school for example.
I find that so bizarre. Anyone working in epidemiology I've listened to thus far has said speed is of utmost importance and the perfect is the enemy of the good. We'll see what happens but this ain't no picnic for young people, and many young people like myself also have underlying conditions, which I think is missing from that equation.
Post by: herman on March 17, 2020, 01:56:27 PM
Did Skynet/Agent Smith/Ultron/Thanos have a point?Here's an unexpected side effect of the pandemic - the water's flowing through the canals of Venice is clear for the first time in forever. The fish are visible, the swans returned. pic.twitter.com/2egMGhJs7f
— Kaveri 🇮🇳 (@ikaveri) March 16, 2020
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 17, 2020, 02:00:33 PM
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/canadian-press-newsalertontario-reports-first-death-linked-to-covid-19
Post by: Highlander on March 17, 2020, 03:24:40 PM
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 17, 2020, 05:50:38 PM
Did Skynet/Agent Smith/Ultron/Thanos have a point?Here's an unexpected side effect of the pandemic - the water's flowing through the canals of Venice is clear for the first time in forever. The fish are visible, the swans returned. pic.twitter.com/2egMGhJs7f
— Kaveri 🇮🇳 (@ikaveri) March 16, 2020
I've been in Seattle for 25 years and am seeing mountains I've never seen before.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on March 17, 2020, 05:51:20 PM
Post by: Dappleganger on March 17, 2020, 06:51:37 PM
I moved to BC two years ago, impossible to get a Doctor here. What BS on what we pay for healthcare, no frikken doctors.
Canada has as many doctors as the US per capita.
Post by: Bates on March 17, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
I moved to BC two years ago, impossible to get a Doctor here. What BS on what we pay for healthcare, no frikken doctors.
Canada has as many doctors as the US per capita.
We really should aim higher than the US as a comparable.
Post by: Dappleganger on March 17, 2020, 09:44:06 PM
I moved to BC two years ago, impossible to get a Doctor here. What BS on what we pay for healthcare, no frikken doctors.
Canada has as many doctors as the US per capita.
We really should aim higher than the US as a comparable.
I think if you look at the US spending way more than any other nation on health care, it’s not a bad comparison in that regard.
Or put another way, the US spends about twice as much on health care than Canada, same amount of doctors per person.
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 18, 2020, 01:00:03 AM
I moved to BC two years ago, impossible to get a Doctor here. What BS on what we pay for healthcare, no frikken doctors.
Canada has as many doctors as the US per capita.
We really should aim higher than the US as a comparable.
I've spent equal time in both countries. I'll take my chances in the US.
Post by: Nik on March 18, 2020, 03:07:23 AM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 18, 2020, 03:14:01 AM
(Click on video to read response)
"Just because we're athletes - that shouldn't put us above everyday, hard-working people."@KendrickPerkins tells @ramonashelburne & @LAIreland he agrees with @NYCMayor's criticism of #coronavirus testing access https://t.co/lFLD88TuIk pic.twitter.com/eBdCczSDfZ
— ESPN Los Angeles (@ESPNLosAngeles) March 18, 2020
Post by: Bates on March 18, 2020, 09:09:02 AM
I moved to BC two years ago, impossible to get a Doctor here. What BS on what we pay for healthcare, no frikken doctors.
Canada has as many doctors as the US per capita.
We really should aim higher than the US as a comparable.
I've spent equal time in both countries. I'll take my chances in the US.
The comparison was in level of doctor service, 30% of Americans have almost no access to service.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 18, 2020, 11:14:49 AM
I’ve given this a lot of thought, and over the past few days my perspective has changed. I was voted to represent and protect athletes. As an IOCAC member, 6x Olympian and Medical doctor in training on the front lines in ER up until this week,these are my thoughts on @Olympics : pic.twitter.com/vrvfsQZ1GO
— Hayley Wickenheiser (@wick_22) March 17, 2020
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 18, 2020, 11:17:05 AM
Massive list of #COVID19 relief measures unveiled by PMO takes two screen captures. One for workers, one for business. Here you go, folks. #cdnpoli pic.twitter.com/rUyEr1rrSP
— Susan Delacourt (@SusanDelacourt) March 18, 2020
Post by: Highlander on March 18, 2020, 12:31:03 PM
Post by: Nik on March 18, 2020, 12:37:10 PM
Interesting question, when they close all shopping to grocery stores and pharmacy's how will people get their booze, or will Liquor stores be exempt? People will want to keep their tipple.
Why should anyone care anymore that you want a scotch and soda than someone else wants to buy a new pair of sneakers?
Taking this seriously means making sacrifices on all of our parts.
Post by: L K on March 18, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
Interesting question, when they close all shopping to grocery stores and pharmacy's how will people get their booze, or will Liquor stores be exempt? People will want to keep their tipple.
Why should anyone care anymore that you want a scotch and soda than someone else wants to buy a new pair of sneakers?
Taking this seriously means making sacrifices on all of our parts.
I mean there is certainly an issue with people who are confirmed alcoholics with alcohol withdrawal. If you can't get your shoe fetish fix it might make you a little annoyed but we could still end up with people flooding ERs with the DTs and seizures. So it is a bit of a legitimate dilemma in terms of how we mitigate that risk.
As for people moping about not having a case of beer to watch replay of the 1996 Stanley Cup Finals however....
Post by: Nik on March 18, 2020, 01:12:53 PM
I mean there is certainly an issue with people who are confirmed alcoholics with alcohol withdrawal. If you can't get your shoe fetish fix it might make you a little annoyed but we could still end up with people flooding ERs with the DTs and seizures. So it is a bit of a legitimate dilemma in terms of how we mitigate that risk.
Fair point. I didn't consider that. I suppose how we mitigate all health concerns so that hospitals can devote as much space/attention to COVID patients as possible is something to think about.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 18, 2020, 01:44:38 PM
Interesting question, when they close all shopping to grocery stores and pharmacy's how will people get their booze, or will Liquor stores be exempt? People will want to keep their tipple.
Why should anyone care anymore that you want a scotch and soda than someone else wants to buy a new pair of sneakers?
Taking this seriously means making sacrifices on all of our parts.
I mean there is certainly an issue with people who are confirmed alcoholics with alcohol withdrawal. If you can't get your shoe fetish fix it might make you a little annoyed but we could still end up with people flooding ERs with the DTs and seizures. So it is a bit of a legitimate dilemma in terms of how we mitigate that risk.
Purchase at grocery stores that sell booze?
Post by: princedpw on March 18, 2020, 01:54:57 PM
Rumour has it that they will vote on a law on thursday and shut down all schools starting from monday. There are things I can be critical of here, one thing is only talking about old people. My sister's daughter has a very serious condition and she is still in school, which makes me worried and my sister furious. They talk about protecting all risk groups, but haven't focused on the younger with underlying conditions, which I don't support. Personally I try to keep a distance to people, I feel fine but you never know and both of my parents are 70+ so I might have to do some grocery shopping, we talk on the phone every day just to be sure.Are they recommending everyone to socially distance themselves?in Sweden? If so, depends really, on buses and trains, they've recommended to keep a distance. They've recommended to not have large gatherings, parties or something similar. When i'm out I don't see any big groups, most people seem to keep away a bit, so based on what I see people in general seem to understand that they should keep away from eachother. I predict that all schools will be shut down this week, but i'm not sure. The one leading the "expert" authority here on the matter has been under a lot of fire not only in Sweden but abroad as well for not taking more aggressive actions, but he has also been praised by other countries for being more scientific and not giving into policy, which makes me a bit confused. One thing that makes it complicated here is that the authorities here in Sweden are independent, so the courts etc can not be controlled by the government. The government with the current laws can not decide to shut down all school for example.
I find that so bizarre. Anyone working in epidemiology I've listened to thus far has said speed is of utmost importance and the perfect is the enemy of the good. We'll see what happens but this ain't no picnic for young people, and many young people like myself also have underlying conditions, which I think is missing from that equation.
The thing about this situation is that everyone's fate is intertwined. All measures to combat the virus work best if every member of society regardless of one's age, social status or health pull in the same direction together. The best thing you can do for yourself is also the best thing you can do for your neighbors.
Post by: Arn on March 18, 2020, 05:59:12 PM
The number of coronavirus cases has spiked across Asia, crushing hopes that the region had contained the outbreak.
Officials in South Korea, Taiwan and parts of China and south-east Asia are rushing through new measures after a second wave of new infections following weeks of declines.
Experts say the sudden increase in cases has revealed the limits of both China’s sweeping lockdown of citizens and of the massive public testing and social distancing campaigns rolled out across Asia.
But it also highlights growing anxieties about new cases coming from abroad. The number of so-called imported infections has risen sharply as people flee the escalating coronavirus outbreak in Europe.
“What many people hadn’t recognised is that it is only a temporary success, it is not a permanent success” said Ben Cowling, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Hong Kong.
From:
https://www.ft.com/content/859e9336-68db-11ea-a3c9-1fe6fedcca75?segmentId=63bac0e6-3d28-36b1-7417-423982f60790
Post by: princedpw on March 19, 2020, 01:03:33 PM
Post by: Arn on March 20, 2020, 02:58:37 PM
They’ve also pledged that they’ll cover 80% of the salaries/wages of those who are now unable to work by these closures.
I’m glad they’ve gone this far as the suggested self isolation wasn’t really working and I’m a little surprised that a Conservative government has done this for the workers. Surprised but pleasantly so. I hope this helps.
I was in my office for the last time for who knows how long but anticipating it to be around 12 weeks minimum. It’s very surreal.
Post by: L K on March 20, 2020, 04:36:39 PM
Post by: Stebro on March 20, 2020, 04:51:08 PM
Volvo just announced that they will stop their production here in Sweden on monday, that alone is impacting 20.000 swedes. A lot of restaurants, bars etc have let go of people as well. Taxi companies have seen a reduction of 80% of their customers in the last couple of weeks and may not make it either. In a new report 600.000 swedes are expected to lose their jobs if the goverment can't find a solution. We have a workforce of around 5,8 million and not all of them are employed.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 21, 2020, 01:14:38 AM
https://fortune.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-young-people-getting-sick-covid-19-us-italy-france/ (https://fortune.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-young-people-getting-sick-covid-19-us-italy-france/)
A word to the wise...Coronavirus or COVID-19 can be contacted by anyone regardless of age. It isn’t solely a boomer or older persons problem anymore.
We’re all in this together.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 21, 2020, 08:03:16 AM
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/whats-being-done-store-shelves-1.5503594?cmp=apple-news_cbc-news_comments#comments-15503594
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 21, 2020, 08:11:18 AM
Already — in various parts of the world such as Italy, China and Iran — precious family members are dying because life-or-death decisions need to be made.
In Canada, this fateful moment is not imminent since our medical system appears to be prepared for the threat of the virus, depending on how bad it gets. At least, that is the hope.
But the same can’t be said for the United States, and its crisis may be contagious. Led by a president who has been ignorant, self-serving and criminally negligent in preparing his country for this crisis, America is on the brink of a catastrophe.
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2020/03/21/covid-19-will-force-horrific-choices-on-americas-private-health-care-system.html
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 21, 2020, 08:20:05 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/politics/us-intelligence-reports-trump-coronavirus/index.html
Post by: Nik on March 21, 2020, 10:41:07 AM
I hope something that comes out of this whole situation is just a real change in the way we evaluate people's "contribution" to society. So many people right now, who have all of the same fears and neuroses that we have, are risking their own health to make sure that our society maintains as well as it possibly can. Truck drivers, grocery store workers, anyone involved in food production, civil servants and of course health care workers. While this is obviously a scary time, one of the things keeping me afloat is all of the incredible, selfless efforts I'm seeing out there.
So when we return to some sense of normalcy, I really hope we abandon a lot of our previous notions of "skilled" and "unskilled" jobs and whether or not anyone deserves a living wage. The free market is good at valuing some things but not, as we're seeing, everything.
Post by: L K on March 21, 2020, 01:34:57 PM
We really need to get away from the "it's just a minimum wage job" nonsense and recognize that everyone plays a big part in society and show some respect for everyone who is out working all of the time and not just during a crisis.
Post by: Highlander on March 21, 2020, 01:38:59 PM
This is one of the best articles about this outbreak that I have read, an interview with Larry Brilliant;
https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-interview-larry-brilliant-smallpox-epidemiologist/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Post by: Bates on March 21, 2020, 03:40:44 PM
Post by: Nik on March 21, 2020, 03:52:28 PM
I'm no expert in any way on the subject but I wonder if this will jumpstart talk on a Universal Basic Income in Canada? It seems absolutely nuts the sheer number of Canadians who's financial Life is currently at risk. And I'm not talking about just low wage earners.
I don't know about a UBI the way some people talk about it but I'd hope a much stronger social safety net for sure.
I think a UBI is good in a crisis because it eliminates implementation delays for means testing but long term I think a better approach is in having better EI, better housing policy, better pension and disability benefits and so on.
Regardless, I think it's very telling that in the midst of a crisis we see that people understand a basic economic reality that a lot of people try to ignore. Put money in the hands of people who need it and they spend it, almost always in their local community. Put money in the hands of people who don't need it and they, at the very least, are less likely to spend the money in local communities.
Post by: Bates on March 21, 2020, 04:40:12 PM
I'm no expert in any way on the subject but I wonder if this will jumpstart talk on a Universal Basic Income in Canada? It seems absolutely nuts the sheer number of Canadians who's financial Life is currently at risk. And I'm not talking about just low wage earners.
I don't know about a UBI the way some people talk about it but I'd hope a much stronger social safety net for sure.
I think a UBI is good in a crisis because it eliminates implementation delays for means testing but long term I think a better approach is in having better EI, better housing policy, better pension and disability benefits and so on.
Regardless, I think it's very telling that in the midst of a crisis we see that people understand a basic economic reality that a lot of people try to ignore. Put money in the hands of people who need it and they spend it, almost always in their local community. Put money in the hands of people who don't need it and they, at the very least, are less likely to spend the money in local communities.
For me the most fascinating part of a UBI is the hope that it could easily be administered without a ton of red tape or cost. You are a Canadian, here is your money. Just too simple to ignore especially now. And it should eliminate a lot of other Givt programs and Administration costs. But who am I kidding, Govt will find a way to bog it down.
Post by: Nik on March 21, 2020, 04:53:47 PM
For me the most fascinating part of a UBI is the hope that it could easily be administered without a ton of red tape or cost. You are a Canadian, here is your money.
I agree, that's an appealing aspect of it. But the cost of it is so high(1000 a month for 25 million people, say, is 300 billion dollars a year) that I don't know if it's feasible.
And it should eliminate a lot of other Givt programs and Administration costs.
But that's the rub. Which programs? Is the goal to stimulate the economy or is the goal to make sure that people who need help get actual help that doesn't leave them desperately poor. Because 1000 dollars a month is less than, say, a lot of disabled people get currently. So do you want to make those people poorer? Or eliminate any options they have for low cost housing?
Post by: Bates on March 21, 2020, 08:35:31 PM
For me the most fascinating part of a UBI is the hope that it could easily be administered without a ton of red tape or cost. You are a Canadian, here is your money.
I agree, that's an appealing aspect of it. But the cost of it is so high(1000 a month for 25 million people, say, is 300 billion dollars a year) that I don't know if it's feasible.And it should eliminate a lot of other Givt programs and Administration costs.
But that's the rub. Which programs? Is the goal to stimulate the economy or is the goal to make sure that people who need help get actual help that doesn't leave them desperately poor. Because 1000 dollars a month is less than, say, a lot of disabled people get currently. So do you want to make those people poorer? Or eliminate any options they have for low cost housing?
Yeah there are definitely issues that would need to be thought out further than my simple post here but my point stands, make it as simple as possible and as easy as possible. A couple of things could make it easier and kinda fairer. The UBI would be the tax free threshold so low income folks get all of the money. Adjust other taxable amounts to reflect that wealthier folks would essentially lose all of the free money. Basically just find a way to ensure all Canadians have enough money to exist and make it easy. And dont penalize low income workers taking away their carrot for working.
Post by: Nik on March 21, 2020, 08:57:19 PM
But "how do we ensure that no one lives in abject poverty" isn't an easy question so the answer isn't going to be simple. Do you adjust for cost of living? Because what's enough to get by in Timmins is drastically different than it is in Toronto.
Again, it's a good idea. It's just not a one size fits all sort of thing that can replace a broader social framework.
Post by: Bates on March 21, 2020, 09:45:08 PM
But "how do we ensure that no one lives in abject poverty" isn't an easy question so the answer isn't going to be simple. Do you adjust for cost of living? Because what's enough to get by in Timmins is drastically different than it is in Toronto.
Again, it's a good idea. It's just not a one size fits all sort of thing that can replace a broader social framework.
I think some people will have to still make Life choices. Should you be unable or unwilling to work to go with your UBI maybe you just can't live in Toronto or Vancouver or wherever. There will never be a program that just lets everyone live the Life they want, I'm just suggesting a way that helps more and doesn't get bogged down with red tape and Administration costs.
Post by: Nik on March 21, 2020, 09:55:51 PM
I think some people will have to still make Life choices. Should you be unable or unwilling to work to go with your UBI maybe you just can't live in Toronto or Vancouver or wherever. There will never be a program that just lets everyone live the Life they want, I'm just suggesting a way that helps more and doesn't get bogged down with red tape and Administration costs.
I don't think it's a question of someone "living the life they want" so much as it is recognizing that different people have different needs. The person in Toronto may be disabled or mentally ill or autistic and have their family or support system around them so packing up and moving to Kapuskasing isn't a realistic option.
What I'm trying to get at is that simply handing people a cheque isn't necessarily helping more. Will it for some people? Yes. But other people need a broad social framework that includes(among other things) housing, social work and special medical services. Whether we like it or not, those things will involve administration and a more thought out response.
Post by: barney_rebel on March 21, 2020, 10:42:20 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 22, 2020, 08:28:45 AM
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2020/03/22/premier-ford-has-risen-to-the-challenge.html
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 22, 2020, 09:49:41 AM
I think some people will have to still make Life choices. Should you be unable or unwilling to work to go with your UBI maybe you just can't live in Toronto or Vancouver or wherever.
That right there is the biggest issue with "free money".
People currently don't make the right life choices. In many cases, that's why they continue to live in poverty. In Sudbury, a relatively cheap place to live in comparison to Toronto or Vancouver, many children go without food every morning. Many kids go without the basic necessities to stay clean. But, every one of their parents have an iPhone 11 and every family has an Xbox or Playstation with the best and greatest games.
The bottom line is, people don't make the right decisions. This isn't only true of the lower income families. Many people making well into the multi hundred thousand a year family incomes, live pay cheque to pay cheque. They purchase the house that they can't afford. The car they can't afford. Etc;
People who "CHOOSE" not to work should not receive free money
Post by: Nik on March 22, 2020, 11:25:45 AM
That right there is the biggest issue with "free money".
People currently don't make the right life choices. In many cases, that's why they continue to live in poverty. In Sudbury, a relatively cheap place to live in comparison to Toronto or Vancouver, many children go without food every morning. Many kids go without the basic necessities to stay clean. But, every one of their parents have an iPhone 11 and every family has an Xbox or Playstation with the best and greatest games.
The bottom line is, people don't make the right decisions. This isn't only true of the lower income families. Many people making well into the multi hundred thousand a year family incomes, live pay cheque to pay cheque. They purchase the house that they can't afford. The car they can't afford. Etc;
People who "CHOOSE" not to work should not receive free money
Leaving aside that I don't think that much of this is true, it ignores one of the basic elements behind the thinking of a UBI. Whether or not these people spend money in ways you approve of(and many, many people have made a compelling case that a smartphone is actually one of the better ways a low-income person can spend their money) this is still money that is being spent in the community. Canadian businesses sell smartphones and video games. That money feeds into the economy with a high-dollar velocity even if you think they're luxuries that these people don't deserve.
Post by: Frycer14 on March 22, 2020, 12:55:03 PM
That money feeds into the economy with a high-dollar velocity even if you think they're luxuries that these people don't deserve.
He didn't say a smartphone was a luxury. He said a top of the line, $1100 smartphone was.
He particularly referenced "best and greatest games" in terms of video game systems. Companies in Canada also sell used titles from past years and older systems. Options for all budgets.
Post by: Nik on March 22, 2020, 01:00:37 PM
He didn't say a smartphone was a luxury. He said a top of the line, $1100 smartphone was.
He particularly referenced "best and greatest games" in terms of video game systems. Companies in Canada also sell used titles from past years and older systems. Options for all budgets.
Right but this is where we would have to get into the "I don't think much of this is true" part of what I wrote.
But, again, it doesn't really matter to the central point. It's still money being passed around the Canadian economy.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 22, 2020, 03:02:26 PM
That right there is the biggest issue with "free money".
People currently don't make the right life choices. In many cases, that's why they continue to live in poverty. In Sudbury, a relatively cheap place to live in comparison to Toronto or Vancouver, many children go without food every morning. Many kids go without the basic necessities to stay clean. But, every one of their parents have an iPhone 11 and every family has an Xbox or Playstation with the best and greatest games.
The bottom line is, people don't make the right decisions. This isn't only true of the lower income families. Many people making well into the multi hundred thousand a year family incomes, live pay cheque to pay cheque. They purchase the house that they can't afford. The car they can't afford. Etc;
People who "CHOOSE" not to work should not receive free money
Leaving aside that I don't think that much of this is true, it ignores one of the basic elements behind the thinking of a UBI. Whether or not these people spend money in ways you approve of(and many, many people have made a compelling case that a smartphone is actually one of the better ways a low-income person can spend their money) this is still money that is being spent in the community. Canadian businesses sell smartphones and video games. That money feeds into the economy with a high-dollar velocity even if you think they're luxuries that these people don't deserve.
While I agree with what you're saying, I don't think that's what Bates was arguing for in regards to UBI.
I'm not quite sure what you feel isn't true. With a spouse that is in administration in the local public school board, I can give you first hand accounts of families spending their cheques on the wrong things(Video games, technology, cell phones, booze, etc; ). It's not a one off. You'd be alarmed at the high amounts of people choosing themselves over their children. It's disheartening and disturbing.
And while I think that technology can be a helpful tool(in reference to your smart phone comment), it is not a helpful tool if you're not feeding your children. It is a waste of money. If that phone is a necessity of survival, perhaps getting a $150 a month data package + the best cell phone on the market isn't the right choice. Perhaps getting a small data package with a $100 used smart phone is the better choice. Perhaps sticking with your Xbox 360 or your playstation 3 is the better choice than upgrading the second the new model comes out. People live in a gimme gimme world, and I fear that throwing an extra $1000 at them just feeds their gimme needs as opposed to feeding their real needs. Their dependents.
Really, this is a discussion for another time. I just felt the need to jump in and take issue with the idea that the people struggling to make ends meet in Sudbury, Owen Sound, or Toronto will suddenly make the right decisions because they have an extra grand to burn. Perhaps I mistook Bates' point.
Post by: Nik on March 22, 2020, 03:17:20 PM
I'm not quite sure what you feel isn't true. With a spouse that is in administration in the local public school board, I can give you first hand accounts of families spending their cheques on the wrong things(Video games, technology, cell phones, booze, etc; ). It's not a one off. You'd be alarmed at the high amounts of people choosing themselves over their children. It's disheartening and disturbing.
I am sure your spouse has anecdotal evidence of that. I would assume that's largely because they would only be privy to information like that in the cases you're talking about but wouldn't be informed of the situations where lower income families are making what you would consider to be "better" decisions. So while I'm sure it can happen, what I don't think is true is that "every one" of the parents of needy children has the luxuries you're talking about or even a majority of them.
And while I think that technology can be a helpful tool(in reference to your smart phone comment), it is not a helpful tool if you're not feeding your children. It is a waste of money. If that phone is a necessity of survival, perhaps getting a $150 a month data package + the best cell phone on the market isn't the right choice. Perhaps getting a small data package with a $100 used smart phone is the better choice. Perhaps sticking with your Xbox 360 or your playstation 3 is the better choice than upgrading the second the new model comes out. People live in a gimme gimme world, and I fear that throwing an extra $1000 at them just feeds their gimme needs as opposed to feeding their real needs. Their dependents.
You can't legislate responsible behaviour and, like you say, bad financial decisions exist with people regardless of income bracket. The prior financial crisis to this one was caused by millionaire bankers being reckless with money, after all. That's why, as it relates to poorer people, I've said that a UBI couldn't just replace the broader social framework that would try to make sure that government still exists to take care of people who, through no real fault of their own, need assistance above and beyond whatever direct financial aid they or their parents receive.
But, again, the responsibility of these purchases is a separate question to just the economic one. Stimulus should be directed at people who will spend the money locally if you want the most bang for your buck.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 22, 2020, 07:09:55 PM
I'm not quite sure what you feel isn't true. With a spouse that is in administration in the local public school board, I can give you first hand accounts of families spending their cheques on the wrong things(Video games, technology, cell phones, booze, etc; ). It's not a one off. You'd be alarmed at the high amounts of people choosing themselves over their children. It's disheartening and disturbing.
I am sure your spouse has anecdotal evidence of that. I would assume that's largely because they would only be privy to information like that in the cases you're talking about but wouldn't be informed of the situations where lower income families are making what you would consider to be "better" decisions. So while I'm sure it can happen, what I don't think is true is that "every one" of the parents of needy children has the luxuries you're talking about or even a majority of them.And while I think that technology can be a helpful tool(in reference to your smart phone comment), it is not a helpful tool if you're not feeding your children. It is a waste of money. If that phone is a necessity of survival, perhaps getting a $150 a month data package + the best cell phone on the market isn't the right choice. Perhaps getting a small data package with a $100 used smart phone is the better choice. Perhaps sticking with your Xbox 360 or your playstation 3 is the better choice than upgrading the second the new model comes out. People live in a gimme gimme world, and I fear that throwing an extra $1000 at them just feeds their gimme needs as opposed to feeding their real needs. Their dependents.
You can't legislate responsible behaviour and, like you say, bad financial decisions exist with people regardless of income bracket. The prior financial crisis to this one was caused by millionaire bankers being reckless with money, after all. That's why, as it relates to poorer people, I've said that a UBI couldn't just replace the broader social framework that would try to make sure that government still exists to take care of people who, through no real fault of their own, need assistance above and beyond whatever direct financial aid they or their parents receive.
But, again, the responsibility of these purchases is a separate question to just the economic one. Stimulus should be directed at people who will spend the money locally if you want the most bang for your buck.
I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing Nik.
I took issue with Bates saying that people need to make life choices. My point is, many people are incapable of making those decisions. Many people can't see past the end of their nose.
Post by: Bates on March 22, 2020, 07:32:58 PM
I'm not quite sure what you feel isn't true. With a spouse that is in administration in the local public school board, I can give you first hand accounts of families spending their cheques on the wrong things(Video games, technology, cell phones, booze, etc; ). It's not a one off. You'd be alarmed at the high amounts of people choosing themselves over their children. It's disheartening and disturbing.
I am sure your spouse has anecdotal evidence of that. I would assume that's largely because they would only be privy to information like that in the cases you're talking about but wouldn't be informed of the situations where lower income families are making what you would consider to be "better" decisions. So while I'm sure it can happen, what I don't think is true is that "every one" of the parents of needy children has the luxuries you're talking about or even a majority of them.And while I think that technology can be a helpful tool(in reference to your smart phone comment), it is not a helpful tool if you're not feeding your children. It is a waste of money. If that phone is a necessity of survival, perhaps getting a $150 a month data package + the best cell phone on the market isn't the right choice. Perhaps getting a small data package with a $100 used smart phone is the better choice. Perhaps sticking with your Xbox 360 or your playstation 3 is the better choice than upgrading the second the new model comes out. People live in a gimme gimme world, and I fear that throwing an extra $1000 at them just feeds their gimme needs as opposed to feeding their real needs. Their dependents.
You can't legislate responsible behaviour and, like you say, bad financial decisions exist with people regardless of income bracket. The prior financial crisis to this one was caused by millionaire bankers being reckless with money, after all. That's why, as it relates to poorer people, I've said that a UBI couldn't just replace the broader social framework that would try to make sure that government still exists to take care of people who, through no real fault of their own, need assistance above and beyond whatever direct financial aid they or their parents receive.
But, again, the responsibility of these purchases is a separate question to just the economic one. Stimulus should be directed at people who will spend the money locally if you want the most bang for your buck.
I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing Nik.
I took issue with Bates saying that people need to make life choices. My point is, many people are incapable of making those decisions. Many people can't see past the end of their nose.
And for those folks you can only provide so many safety nets. This program would be for the greater good of the vast majority.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 23, 2020, 07:00:17 AM
I'm not quite sure what you feel isn't true. With a spouse that is in administration in the local public school board, I can give you first hand accounts of families spending their cheques on the wrong things(Video games, technology, cell phones, booze, etc; ). It's not a one off. You'd be alarmed at the high amounts of people choosing themselves over their children. It's disheartening and disturbing.
I am sure your spouse has anecdotal evidence of that. I would assume that's largely because they would only be privy to information like that in the cases you're talking about but wouldn't be informed of the situations where lower income families are making what you would consider to be "better" decisions. So while I'm sure it can happen, what I don't think is true is that "every one" of the parents of needy children has the luxuries you're talking about or even a majority of them.And while I think that technology can be a helpful tool(in reference to your smart phone comment), it is not a helpful tool if you're not feeding your children. It is a waste of money. If that phone is a necessity of survival, perhaps getting a $150 a month data package + the best cell phone on the market isn't the right choice. Perhaps getting a small data package with a $100 used smart phone is the better choice. Perhaps sticking with your Xbox 360 or your playstation 3 is the better choice than upgrading the second the new model comes out. People live in a gimme gimme world, and I fear that throwing an extra $1000 at them just feeds their gimme needs as opposed to feeding their real needs. Their dependents.
You can't legislate responsible behaviour and, like you say, bad financial decisions exist with people regardless of income bracket. The prior financial crisis to this one was caused by millionaire bankers being reckless with money, after all. That's why, as it relates to poorer people, I've said that a UBI couldn't just replace the broader social framework that would try to make sure that government still exists to take care of people who, through no real fault of their own, need assistance above and beyond whatever direct financial aid they or their parents receive.
But, again, the responsibility of these purchases is a separate question to just the economic one. Stimulus should be directed at people who will spend the money locally if you want the most bang for your buck.
I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing Nik.
I took issue with Bates saying that people need to make life choices. My point is, many people are incapable of making those decisions. Many people can't see past the end of their nose.
And for those folks you can only provide so many safety nets. This program would be for the greater good of the vast majority.
I agree.
Post by: bustaheims on March 23, 2020, 03:00:31 PM
Quote
TORONTO — To further contain the spread of COVID-19, the Ontario Government will order the mandatory closure of all non-essential workplaces effective as of Tuesday, March 24th at 11:59 p.m. This closure will be in effect for 14 days with the possibility of extending this order as the situation evolves. A full list of businesses that are permitted to stay open will be released tomorrow.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 23, 2020, 04:22:06 PM
https://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2020/03/ontario-orders-the-mandatory-closure-of-all-non-essential-workplaces-to-fight-spread-of-covid-19.htmlQuoteTORONTO — To further contain the spread of COVID-19, the Ontario Government will order the mandatory closure of all non-essential workplaces effective as of Tuesday, March 24th at 11:59 p.m. This closure will be in effect for 14 days with the possibility of extending this order as the situation evolves. A full list of businesses that are permitted to stay open will be released tomorrow.
Here's what's going to be on that list according to Ford:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-covid19-canada-latest-updates-190048955.html (https://ca.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-covid19-canada-latest-updates-190048955.html)
Quote
Ontario Premier Doug Ford said all non-essential businesses in the province must close. This excludes manufacturers, grocery stores, LCBO shops, pharmacies and take-out restaurants.
Also:
Quote
“The kids won’t be going back to school on Apr. 6,” Ford said. “The reality is April the 6th is not realistic right now.”
Not that that's shocking
Post by: Arn on March 23, 2020, 04:50:34 PM
Surreal and unprecedented times.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 24, 2020, 02:51:19 AM
Quote
You all think you’re invincible. You’re not. Enough is enough,” he warned in an address to Canadians on Monday from Rideau Cottage, where he is currently in self-isolation.
“Go home and stay home.”
Rightly so.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6716919/trudeau-canada-update-coronavirus-march-23/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/6716919/trudeau-canada-update-coronavirus-march-23/)
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 24, 2020, 07:28:10 AM
Prime Minister Trudeau’s message to Canadians:QuoteYou all think you’re invincible. You’re not. Enough is enough,” he warned in an address to Canadians on Monday from Rideau Cottage, where he is currently in self-isolation.
“Go home and stay home.”
Rightly so.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6716919/trudeau-canada-update-coronavirus-march-23/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/6716919/trudeau-canada-update-coronavirus-march-23/)
He said all that in his stern teacher voice but then when asked how to enforce it, he said, I'm leaving that up to the province.
Someone needs to take charge here. Stop using half measures and start taking control. Don't worry about lost votes. Worry about today, and tomorrow, and next week.
Ford's list of "essential" businesses is also a farce. Just about every business in Canada can find a spot they fit on that list. So far Ontario has basically closed barber shops, brothels and schools.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 24, 2020, 08:22:36 AM
Our grandparents were asked to go to war we asked these assholes to stay home on the couch and they can’t even do that.
— Chris Nilan (@KnucklesNilan30) March 18, 2020
Post by: L K on March 24, 2020, 09:41:10 AM
Trump is mulling lifting restrictions to help the economy. The Lt Governor of Texas is literally advocating for sacrifice to Supply Side Jesus.
Post by: Nik on March 24, 2020, 12:11:56 PM
It's pretty hard to give too much crap to anyone raised in this society that thinks that "Eff you, I got mine" is a perfectly acceptable way of thinking of things. If you want college kids to think that putting collective good ahead of individual desires is the way to go, you can't wait until global pandemics pop up to try and get the message across.
Post by: Highlander on March 24, 2020, 12:42:32 PM
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 24, 2020, 01:09:10 PM
Hopefully when he gets home, there is a sleeping bag on the porch and a sign on front door saying "see you in 2 weeks Buddy"
I severely doubt it.
Post by: Highlander on March 24, 2020, 01:17:07 PM
Of course his parents would have 55" TV, game controls, cooler and bbq set up for Bobby. And a big down comforter so he doesn't get to cold at night and of course his bong will be all cleaned up for him.
Post by: Nik on March 24, 2020, 01:36:37 PM
Me too, but a nice thought.
Of course his parents would have 55" TV, game controls, cooler and bbq set up for Bobby. And a big down comforter so he doesn't get to cold at night and of course his bong will be all cleaned up for him.
Sure is a shame Bobby's grandparents voted all their lives to gut public education and health care so they could buy second homes and golf all day.
Post by: Highlander on March 24, 2020, 02:42:25 PM
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 24, 2020, 04:10:40 PM
Me too, but a nice thought.
Of course his parents would have 55" TV, game controls, cooler and bbq set up for Bobby. And a big down comforter so he doesn't get to cold at night and of course his bong will be all cleaned up for him.
It's a clear result of the parenting motto of telling your kids "you can do and be whatever you want to be as long as you're happy! Here's a participation trophy!"
The biggest issue is it's not just kids acting like fools. There's people in every demographic acting foolishly. I've seen people gathered out on the lake ice fishing and partying. Their response: "It's not a big deal".....Sound familiar?
Post by: Highlander on March 24, 2020, 04:51:02 PM
But you must know that Coronavirus cannot survive on the ice!!! ;)Me too, but a nice thought.
Of course his parents would have 55" TV, game controls, cooler and bbq set up for Bobby. And a big down comforter so he doesn't get to cold at night and of course his bong will be all cleaned up for him.
It's a clear result of the parenting motto of telling your kids "you can do and be whatever you want to be as long as you're happy! Here's a participation trophy!"
The biggest issue is it's not just kids acting like fools. There's people in every demographic acting foolishly. I've seen people gathered out on the lake ice fishing and partying. Their response: "It's not a big deal".....Sound familiar?
Post by: bustaheims on March 24, 2020, 04:55:24 PM
Disgracefully irresponsible dumbells:Our grandparents were asked to go to war we asked these assholes to stay home on the couch and they can’t even do that.
— Chris Nilan (@KnucklesNilan30) March 18, 2020
He has since apologized, apparently.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/coronavirus-spring-break-instagram-apology-miami-video-viral
Also, this is the least surprising thing I've read about him:
Quote
high school graduate and Soundcloud rapper
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 24, 2020, 05:01:12 PM
He has since apologized, apparently.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/coronavirus-spring-break-instagram-apology-miami-video-viral
More like his parents' lawyer wrote up a statement for him to release.
Post by: Chris on March 24, 2020, 05:06:31 PM
Disgracefully irresponsible dumbells:Our grandparents were asked to go to war we asked these assholes to stay home on the couch and they can’t even do that.
— Chris Nilan (@KnucklesNilan30) March 18, 2020
He has since apologized, apparently.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/coronavirus-spring-break-instagram-apology-miami-video-viral
Also, this is the least surprising thing I've read about him:Quotehigh school graduate and Soundcloud rapper
OK with me as long as he's OK with being turned away from a hospital since, you know, he's OK with getting coronavirus. Save the bed for someone who gives a sh...
Post by: Bullfrog on March 24, 2020, 07:51:15 PM
<looks at essential business list>
Nope, I'm good.
Post by: Frank E on March 24, 2020, 08:15:41 PM
I'll be expecting applause at 7pm for my contribution to the fight.
You can simply yell "Thank you Frank E" from your balcony.
And you're welcome. I serve proudly.
Post by: L K on March 25, 2020, 11:11:19 AM
Post by: bustaheims on March 25, 2020, 11:40:46 AM
Oh hey look. Trump's FDA rushed through an application to grant Gilead exclusive rights to one of the drugs being trialed for treatment of COVID. This is not a good thing for the world at large.
Oh good, more croneyism.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/24/massive-scandal-trump-fda-grants-drug-company-exclusive-claim-promising-coronavirus
Quote
As The Intercept reported, the designation was given to a company where Joe Grogan, a member of President Donald Trump's "coronavirus task force," worked as a lobbyist from 2011 to 2017, often working on issues regarding drug pricing.
Post by: Nik on March 25, 2020, 01:26:36 PM
I really try hard not to present the people I disagree with politically as being cartoonishly evil but the number of people out there right now arguing that we should be willing to accept thousands of deaths so that damage to a certain section of the economy(and, to be fair, just the financial sector) is contained is really making that hard to do.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 25, 2020, 03:40:39 PM
I really try hard not to present the people I disagree with politically as being cartoonishly evil but the number of people out there right now arguing that we should be willing to accept thousands of deaths so that damage to a certain section of the economy(and, to be fair, just the financial sector) is contained is really making that hard to do.
Yes, it's kind of tough to not picture them sitting with a cat like Dr. Claw
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/0/00/Doctor_Claw.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121005024146)
Post by: L K on March 25, 2020, 03:59:42 PM
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 25, 2020, 04:35:26 PM
I really try hard not to present the people I disagree with politically as being cartoonishly evil but the number of people out there right now arguing that we should be willing to accept thousands of deaths so that damage to a certain section of the economy(and, to be fair, just the financial sector) is contained is really making that hard to do.
The stoic bravery of people who are willing to sacrifice other people's lives for their own personal benefit.
Post by: Nik on March 25, 2020, 04:44:28 PM
What we can't worry about right now are things like stock trading which, and I'm using noted arch-communist and money-hater Mark Cuban as a reference here, has long since stopped being about investing in well managed companies in order to reap dividends and has instead become a glorified lottery where people are hoping to get rich quick off of speculation and volume dealing.
We know how to help rebuild an economy after a sharp crash. We can't bring thousands of people back to life.
Post by: bustaheims on March 25, 2020, 04:50:40 PM
It's really baffling to me that the guy is polling with a 60% approval rating on how he is handling COVID-19.
People are so used to him being completely incompetent, that even the slightest bit of seemingly competent behaviour looks like good.
He's done a terrible job overall, but, he has made some of the decisions people recognize as being vital. He just seemingly refuses to be able to have the last for long enough, or to not give terrible advice/guidance on top of them.
Post by: Nik on March 25, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
I also think, to some extent, it's because right now a lot of this is an abstraction. The numbers are relatively low of infected/casualties and so people are just seeing the response and not the consequences.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on March 25, 2020, 07:37:30 PM
I also think, to some extent, it's because right now a lot of this is an abstraction. The numbers are relatively low of infected/casualties and so people are just seeing the response and not the consequences.
Your right. Just wait for two weeks when the U.S. is looking like Italy and see what his approval rating is.
Post by: Nik on March 25, 2020, 07:46:00 PM
I also think, to some extent, it's because right now a lot of this is an abstraction. The numbers are relatively low of infected/casualties and so people are just seeing the response and not the consequences.
Your right. Just wait for two weeks when the U.S. is looking like Italy and see what his approval rating is.
Well, I hope that's not the case. I have a lot of friends and family in the States so I hope things there never look quite as bad as Italy.
Post by: bustaheims on March 25, 2020, 09:28:46 PM
I really try hard not to present the people I disagree with politically as being cartoonishly evil but the number of people out there right now arguing that we should be willing to accept thousands of deaths so that damage to a certain section of the economy(and, to be fair, just the financial sector) is contained is really making that hard to do.
The irony is that so many of these same people scream how abortions are murder (though, in a lot of cases, I’m sure that’s just to get votes), and now they’re basically advocating for actual murder.
This guy, on the other hand... https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/us/louisiana-pastor-spell-coronavirus/index.html
Post by: Highlander on March 26, 2020, 01:40:42 PM
Strange how we spend so much money on military goods but almost nothing to prepare for the invisible war that Trump keeps referring to.
Imagine if the entire world was not scrambling for Ventilators, masks, beds etc. Perhaps the need to stretch out the bell curve wouldn't have been necessary or SO necessary, as we would have had the resources in place to deal with the outbreak.
Currently we are hunkered down, isolating and social distancing ourselves while we buy time for Ford, Tesla and other mega corps to manufacture the equipment we need to save society and buy ourselves some time to develop a vaccine or some other treatment to stem the tide of this scourge.
I am so pissed that we were not prepared in Canada. Now we are spending almost 90 billion to bail ourselves out. Perhaps 5 or 6 billion spent over the last 10 years would have spared us all a lot of grief and suffering.
Post by: L K on March 26, 2020, 03:04:32 PM
I don't work for LHSC anymore but that is where I did my training.
2018/2019 - 800,458 Ambulatory/Outpatient Visits, 165,824 ER Visits, 388,766 Admission Days - 912 Physician, 3820 Nurses, 2321 Corporate/Management
2017/2018 - 790,720 Ambulatory/Outpatient Visits, 165,239 ER Visits, 370,310 Admission Days - 912 Physician, 3744 Nurses, 2297 Corporate/Management
2016/2017 - 787,709 Ambulatory/Outpatient Visits, 163,369 ER Visits, 350,514 Admission Days - 888 Physician, 3588 Nurses, 2277 Corporate/Management
2015/2016 - 773,084 Ambulatory/Outpatient Visits, 159,028 ER Visits, 328,032 Admission Days - 873 Physician, 3622 Nurses, 2302 Corporate/Management
2014/2015 - 753,630 Ambulatory/Outpatient Visits, 150,649 ER Visits, 357,808 Admission Days - 858 Physician, 3730 Nurses, 2416 Corporate/Management
Volumes go up, patient sickness goes up, support line staff plateau. We have been chipping away at our health care over the last decade. Cuts to outpatient services. Paltry mental health supports. Limits to beds. Having hospitals running at >100% capacity for years with no concerns from the public at large outside of when your loved one sits in the ER for days waiting for an inpatient bed.
We could manufacture 1000 vents today. The problem is in 6 months we won't really need them. They will sit idly and fall into disrepair. There would be a much better approach to having the WHO create an international epidemic/pandemic response unit that could house a mobile ICU that could be transitioned to other regions as required.
We also could add hundred of beds to the country but we also need to see staffing improve accordingly. When I started working you would typically have 4 patients to a nurse on average. Now it is routinely running 8-9 patients/nurse in a lot of situations because of staffing cuts.
Post by: Bill_Berg on March 26, 2020, 04:27:00 PM
My largest frustration and is part of why we are all in the pickle we are in now, is that not one government picked up on the message's that were being sent out by so many experts like noted Epidemiologist Larry Brilliant who forewarned of this disaster in a TED talk 14 years ago, or like Bill Gates who said exactly the same things in his TED talk in 2015. Gate's even used graphics that showed what looks exactly what a Coronavirus looks like in his talk, as well as the need to stockpile, huge amounts of N-95 masks, shields, gloves, beds and ventilators.
Strange how we spend so much money on military goods but almost nothing to prepare for the invisible war that Trump keeps referring to.
Imagine if the entire world was not scrambling for Ventilators, masks, beds etc. Perhaps the need to stretch out the bell curve wouldn't have been necessary or SO necessary, as we would have had the resources in place to deal with the outbreak.
Currently we are hunkered down, isolating and social distancing ourselves while we buy time for Ford, Tesla and other mega corps to manufacture the equipment we need to save society and buy ourselves some time to develop a vaccine or some other treatment to stem the tide of this scourge.
I am so pissed that we were not prepared in Canada. Now we are spending almost 90 billion to bail ourselves out. Perhaps 5 or 6 billion spent over the last 10 years would have spared us all a lot of grief and suffering.
I'm no expert, but my first thought is if we could have prepped for a virus like this, aren't there a 100 other things we could be prepping for too?
Post by: bustaheims on March 26, 2020, 04:45:01 PM
I'm no expert, but my first thought is if we could have prepped for a virus like this, aren't there a 100 other things we could be prepping for too?
True, there are lots of things we could be prepping for. The difference between this one and most of the others is that we've experienced two pretty serious coronavirus epidemics in relatively recent history (SARS and MERS), as well as a number of influenza outbreaks with similar symptoms/potential complications. While we may not have been able to predict this specific outbreak, the world could definitely have been better prepared in terms of having the right equipment, staffing, etc., to deal with it.
Post by: Nik on March 26, 2020, 05:35:58 PM
True, there are lots of things we could be prepping for. The difference between this one and most of the others is that we've experienced two pretty serious coronavirus epidemics in relatively recent history (SARS and MERS), as well as a number of influenza outbreaks with similar symptoms/potential complications. While we may not have been able to predict this specific outbreak, the world could definitely have been better prepared in terms of having the right equipment, staffing, etc., to deal with it.
But I think you know as well as any of us that MERS and SARS would have been used by certain people to "prove" that we don't need special precautions because they were relatively contained.
I don't want this thread to spiral outright into politics but this particular provincial government came to power and did away with the green energy tax credit and cancelled a fully funded study into a UBI. Those policies directly spoke to two other serious issues we're probably going to have to face as a community in terms of climate change and the automation of the workforce. They also have smart people giving Ted talks about them and experts telling us we need to prepare.
So I agree. It is a shame that society has seen huge gains in wealth over the last generation and by and large has used those gains in the least productive, least beneficial way possible by diverting as much of it as possible into the pockets of a select few. But until there's real appetite for change to really proactively address the issues on the agenda, I don't know if it's right to pick off one when it's too late and say "See, we should have done X, Y and Z"
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 26, 2020, 06:15:39 PM
True, there are lots of things we could be prepping for. The difference between this one and most of the others is that we've experienced two pretty serious coronavirus epidemics in relatively recent history (SARS and MERS), as well as a number of influenza outbreaks with similar symptoms/potential complications. While we may not have been able to predict this specific outbreak, the world could definitely have been better prepared in terms of having the right equipment, staffing, etc., to deal with it.
But I think you know as well as any of us that MERS and SARS would have been used by certain people to "prove" that we don't need special precautions because they were relatively contained.
I thought I read that they did stock up on N95 masks but I could be mistaken. I'll see what I can find.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 26, 2020, 06:17:46 PM
True, there are lots of things we could be prepping for. The difference between this one and most of the others is that we've experienced two pretty serious coronavirus epidemics in relatively recent history (SARS and MERS), as well as a number of influenza outbreaks with similar symptoms/potential complications. While we may not have been able to predict this specific outbreak, the world could definitely have been better prepared in terms of having the right equipment, staffing, etc., to deal with it.
But I think you know as well as any of us that MERS and SARS would have been used by certain people to "prove" that we don't need special precautions because they were relatively contained.
I thought I read that they did stock up on N95 masks but I could be mistaken. I'll see what I can find.
Yup, 55 million masks stocked up. They're all expired.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/ontario-stockpiled-millions-of-masks-after-sars-they-all-expired-as-covid-19-nears-pandemic-status (https://nationalpost.com/news/world/ontario-stockpiled-millions-of-masks-after-sars-they-all-expired-as-covid-19-nears-pandemic-status)
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 27, 2020, 02:36:56 AM
It's about time this was reported by the mainstream. New York hospitals treating corona patients with VITAMIN C https://t.co/L9ct9CKMJC via @MailOnline
— Zoltan P. Rona (@drzoltanrona) March 25, 2020
Articles:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8149191/amp/New-York-hospitals-treating-corona-patients-6000-milligrams-VITAMIN-C.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8149191/amp/New-York-hospitals-treating-corona-patients-6000-milligrams-VITAMIN-C.html)
https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/new-york-hospitals-treating-coronavirus-patients-with-vitamin-c/amp/ (https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/new-york-hospitals-treating-coronavirus-patients-with-vitamin-c/amp/)
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 27, 2020, 02:45:06 AM
Conclusion:
Current vaccination strategies prioritizing elderly persons may be less effective than believed at reducing serious morbidity and mortality in this population, which suggests that supplementary strategies may be necessary.
https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2762506/effect-influenza-vaccination-elderly-hospitalization-mortality-observational-study-regression-discontinuity (https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2762506/effect-influenza-vaccination-elderly-hospitalization-mortality-observational-study-regression-discontinuity)
Post by: L K on March 27, 2020, 03:44:49 AM
Post by: Highlander on March 27, 2020, 02:16:43 PM
https://www.vywebdesign.com/small-businesses-fight-back-against-covid-19-2
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 27, 2020, 04:23:16 PM
Did you actually read the article because your conclusion and what the authors advocate and discuss are not remotely in line with where you are trying to peddle it
Just what misinterpretation are you alluding to?
The conclusion at the end of the article concludes and summaries the findings of the observational study. The conclusion speaks for itself.
Post by: Frycer14 on March 27, 2020, 05:36:15 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 27, 2020, 05:40:11 PM
Quote
Health officials say physical distancing restrictions in B.C. are successfully beginning to slow the number of new COVID-19 cases in the province, perhaps by as much as half.
But despite the "glimmer of hope," provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry and other officials stressed that the province is not out of the woods and the health-care system still needs to be prepared for an inevitable surge in hospitalizations.
"I'm trying not to over-call it, but I do believe we've seen a flattening, a falling-off of that curve," Henry said Friday, referring to the growth of new COVID-19 patients in B.C.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/covid-19-bc-modelling-numbers-dr-bonnie-henry-1.5512269
Post by: Frycer14 on March 27, 2020, 05:42:30 PM
Did you actually read the article because your conclusion and what the authors advocate and discuss are not remotely in line with where you are trying to peddle it
Just what misinterpretation are you alluding to?
The conclusion at the end of the article concludes and summaries the findings of the observational study. The conclusion speaks for itself.
If I'm reading the article correctly, the vitamin injections are being used to treat a byproduct of the infection in the very ill -sepsis. It's not being used as any other benefit that I could ascertain, and yet it takes careful reading past the sensationalist headlines to actually get any valid information.
It's these sort of articles that infuriates me, because they're manipulative, and often quoted with an agenda.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on March 27, 2020, 06:39:22 PM
And what agenda would that be?
Post by: Highlander on March 27, 2020, 08:28:43 PM
Some encouraging news (from B.C.):I live in BC in the interior and I can attest that people are wearing gloves, using leftover hand sanitizer, and keeping their distance. So perhaps we will be spared somewhat or caught in the 2nd wave that seems to be coming like a distant tsunami. Hope I am not being negative. Hope we all survive this...seems people are drinking a lot more....QuoteHealth officials say physical distancing restrictions in B.C. are successfully beginning to slow the number of new COVID-19 cases in the province, perhaps by as much as half.
But despite the "glimmer of hope," provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry and other officials stressed that the province is not out of the woods and the health-care system still needs to be prepared for an inevitable surge in hospitalizations.
"I'm trying not to over-call it, but I do believe we've seen a flattening, a falling-off of that curve," Henry said Friday, referring to the growth of new COVID-19 patients in B.C.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/covid-19-bc-modelling-numbers-dr-bonnie-henry-1.5512269
Post by: Highlander on March 27, 2020, 08:37:33 PM
Do you expect him to do it for free? The main thing is if your business was closed and you are not selling squat, then you have a chance to change this, even if you use a different service to do so. I call it fighting the invisible war this way.
People have lost their livelihoods, so if this offends you by someone trying to help then you have to look at yourself. I will do a lot of positive things for society without rewards as I have always done, part of my makeup. If I can help someone get there business back on their feet then that is a good thing.
I will leave it to the curators whether they want to remove the post.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 27, 2020, 08:53:37 PM
I said it was not normal protocol for this site, but not normal times, if the curators want to pull down the post, let them. However to get a E-com website designed by a master (believe me I have worked with him for 3 years and seen amazing results) for 2K is a steal. Try finding that anywhere. And I never said it was a charity.
Do you expect him to do it for free? The main thing is if your business was closed and you are not selling squat, then you have a chance to change this, even if you use a different service to do so. I call it fighting the invisible war this way.
People have lost their livelihoods, so if this offends you by someone trying to help then you have to look at yourself. I will do a lot of positive things for society without rewards as I have always done, part of my makeup. If I can help someone get there business back on their feet then that is a good thing.
I will leave it to the curators whether they want to remove the post.
I'll compromise by just saying that we don't really need a 3rd separate Coronavirus thread for this.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 28, 2020, 02:33:56 AM
Did you actually read the article because your conclusion and what the authors advocate and discuss are not remotely in line with where you are trying to peddle it
Just what misinterpretation are you alluding to?
The conclusion at the end of the article concludes and summaries the findings of the observational study. The conclusion speaks for itself.
If I'm reading the article correctly, the vitamin injections are being used to treat a byproduct of the infection in the very ill -sepsis. It's not being used as any other benefit that I could ascertain, and yet it takes careful reading past the sensationalist headlines to actually get any valid information.
It's these sort of articles that infuriates me, because they're manipulative, and often quoted with an agenda.
What agenda? Did you actually comprehend anything of value of what was stated?
Seriously ill patients, yes seriously ill patients and who isn’t critically ill from Coronavirus and in the ICU. At least steps are being taken in a new direction with this experimental cocktail of a treatment which also includes the usage of anti-malarial and anti-virals. Furthermore, it should come as no surprise that Vit C can act both as an anti-viral and anti-bacterial manner in conjunction with a proper administration of therapy/treatment. This has long been studied in natural medicine circles.
The idea of boosting the immune system thus uplifting the state of the patient due to nutritional deficiencies makes perfect sense.
A little bit of hope can go a long way to helping the hopeless. It’s wonderful that traditional mainstream and non-traditional medicine come together for the betterment of humanity in the face of this insidious malady.
No one is professing cure with one method alone. It takes an amalgam or a multi-faceted approach (even in the realm of “experimental’) to tackle the issue at hand. The fact that the above was first tried in China successfully and being replicated in part here shows a diversified approach does indeed work.
Post by: L K on March 28, 2020, 08:39:41 AM
Did you actually read the article because your conclusion and what the authors advocate and discuss are not remotely in line with where you are trying to peddle it
Just what misinterpretation are you alluding to?
The conclusion at the end of the article concludes and summaries the findings of the observational study. The conclusion speaks for itself.
1)The article is based on an old vaccine that we don't use anymore with the >65 crowd
2)The article was designed to highlight that a targeted vaccine program focused on the over 65 isn't sufficient to protect the >65 crowd. It fails to meet levels for herd immunity making the targeted vaccine program insufficient when directed at the >65 crowd. The point of the article was to indicate a wider immunization program, not to point out the ineffectiveness of the vaccine.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 28, 2020, 11:11:13 AM
This includes, but is not limited to, alternative forms of medicine and anything even remotely anti-vaxxy.
Keep your Vitamin C recommendations for your Facebook friends.
Post by: Deebo on March 28, 2020, 06:40:59 PM
Alright. Unless it's coming from the WHO, CDC, or PHAC please refrain from posting medical advice. That's that.
This includes, but is not limited to, alternative forms of medicine and anything even remotely anti-vaxxy.
Keep your Vitamin C recommendations for your Facebook friends.
Deleted everything after this, both in support of and against it.
There are other places on the internet to discuss this stuff, please go elsewhere to dicusss it.
Thanks.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 28, 2020, 07:28:58 PM
Me? Watching t.v isn’t really my thing unless there are programs that interest me. I’ve been on my computer, iPad with tutorials on card making (paper crafting). Cricut Joy, anyone? Ladies?
P.S. Thought I’d post this as a diversion to the mundane.
Click here: (today’s post)
https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5558.msg396686#msg396686 (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5558.msg396686#msg396686)
Post by: Bender on March 28, 2020, 08:20:19 PM
Oh, and avoiding No Frills. Went to the one at 401/Dixon today because they said it had more items available for online purchase but the place is a zoo!
Post by: Deebo on March 28, 2020, 09:31:34 PM
Gonna try my hand at baking bread tomorrow
I started baking bread about a month before this all started.
It's very easy.
Post by: Bender on March 29, 2020, 01:23:22 PM
Do you have a method/recipe? I'm thinking of using my instant pot to help proof the bread quicker.Gonna try my hand at baking bread tomorrow
I started baking bread about a month before this all started.
It's very easy.
Post by: Deebo on March 29, 2020, 03:15:14 PM
Do you have a method/recipe? I'm thinking of using my instant pot to help proof the bread quicker.Gonna try my hand at baking bread tomorrow
I started baking bread about a month before this all started.
It's very easy.
I use a stand mixer and loaf pans.
I don't remember which specific recipe I used, there are so many out there but the rough process I used was:
Dry active yeast and sugar in warm water in the bowl of my stand mixer, let it stand until the yeast bubbles.
Add flour with salt to the bowl and mix with the dough hook.
Add flour as necessary
When the dough is kneaded, transfer it to a lightly oiled bowl turn the dough over to coat the dough in oil
Cover and let rise for 60-90 minutes.
Transfer to loaf pan and let rise covered for another 30 minutes
Bake at 350 for 30-35 minutes.
Again, just a rough process and there are so many recipes out there to get propotions ingredients
Post by: L K on March 29, 2020, 04:50:48 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 29, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
Coconut flour, almond flour are quite common. Coconut flour is lighter and thus a little more digestible than almond. There’s also Quinoa, hazelnut, rice, and some others.
Just wanted to give out some tips for a more nutritious bite.🙂
Some info here:
https://draxe.com/nutrition/coconut-flour-nutrition/
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 29, 2020, 07:38:18 PM
Thank you @sergeibaka for helping us say thank you to our @TOPublicHealth heroes and for spreading the word about how we can all help to stop the spread of #COVID19 @Raptors @cityoftoronto @bradrossTO https://t.co/FKbWyxPBCv
— Matthew Pegg (@ChiefPeggTFS) March 27, 2020
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2020/03/29/stay-home-and-wear-your-scarf-how-the-accessory-became-a-weapon-in-torontos-fight-against-covid-19.html
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 29, 2020, 07:43:07 PM
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/carriers/telus/telus-clean-smartphone-covid-19/
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 30, 2020, 07:14:05 AM
For those of us who would like to do this, a tip on how to clean your smartphone (a worthy idea for anytime not just for now):
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/carriers/telus/telus-clean-smartphone-covid-19/
I've always just brought mine in the bath tub with me
Post by: Bill_Berg on March 30, 2020, 07:44:58 AM
It has really been interesting to see how many people are baking right now. You can’t find flour in any of the grocery stores in my area.
Ditto, been making half a bag last for regular cooking. Bread is out of the question. Would be a great thing to do with the kids, but no flour or sugar for a while now. Grocery store says they get it in small batches and it sells immediately.
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on March 30, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
and not to use those Lysol or Chlorox wipes on them.
Post by: Bender on March 30, 2020, 11:21:59 AM
It has really been interesting to see how many people are baking right now. You can’t find flour in any of the grocery stores in my area.
Ditto, been making half a bag last for regular cooking. Bread is out of the question. Would be a great thing to do with the kids, but no flour or sugar for a while now. Grocery store says they get it in small batches and it sells immediately.
I used to work at Bulk Barn as a teenager briefly. They get loads of shipments, and flour comes in bulk bags of 40kg. I'd give them a call if you need baking supplies :)
Post by: Guilt Trip on March 30, 2020, 11:52:31 AM
Just a note. The dough will rise better in a warmer then room temp environment. You can leave it on top of the stove vent, usually back right burner, with the oven on low to generate heat.Do you have a method/recipe? I'm thinking of using my instant pot to help proof the bread quicker.Gonna try my hand at baking bread tomorrow
I started baking bread about a month before this all started.
It's very easy.
I use a stand mixer and loaf pans.
I don't remember which specific recipe I used, there are so many out there but the rough process I used was:
Dry active yeast and sugar in warm water in the bowl of my stand mixer, let it stand until the yeast bubbles.
Add flour with salt to the bowl and mix with the dough hook.
Add flour as necessary
When the dough is kneaded, transfer it to a lightly oiled bowl turn the dough over to coat the dough in oil
Cover and let rise for 60-90 minutes.
Transfer to loaf pan and let rise covered for another 30 minutes
Bake at 350 for 30-35 minutes.
Again, just a rough process and there are so many recipes out there to get propotions ingredients
Post by: Bill_Berg on March 30, 2020, 01:13:52 PM
It has really been interesting to see how many people are baking right now. You can’t find flour in any of the grocery stores in my area.
Ditto, been making half a bag last for regular cooking. Bread is out of the question. Would be a great thing to do with the kids, but no flour or sugar for a while now. Grocery store says they get it in small batches and it sells immediately.
I used to work at Bulk Barn as a teenager briefly. They get loads of shipments, and flour comes in bulk bags of 40kg. I'd give them a call if you need baking supplies :)
Is Bulk Barn open? The bulk section (candy and nuts mostly) in my grocery store has been shut down.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 30, 2020, 01:19:04 PM
Is Bulk Barn open? The bulk section (candy and nuts mostly) in my grocery store has been shut down.
https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/
They're open (with reduced hours, looks like 10am-6pm) but have workers doing all the scooping for you, something grocery stores probably can't handle. Although I was at a Fortinos yesterday and the bulk section was still open there.
Post by: Frank E on March 30, 2020, 07:11:07 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 30, 2020, 07:43:57 PM
Is Bulk Barn open? The bulk section (candy and nuts mostly) in my grocery store has been shut down.
https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/ (https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/)
They're open (with reduced hours, looks like 10am-6pm) but have workers doing all the scooping for you, something grocery stores probably can't handle. Although I was at a Fortinos yesterday and the bulk section was still open there.
Be careful when taking bulk items. It’s been ages that I no longer shop at a Bulk Barn Store. My late brother and I used to do so ages ago but we eventually stopped after I felt unwell after having eaten some of these bulk foods.
You never know if they’re really hygienic with so many people scooping out and opening the containers. Unless certain foods —chocolates, for example —and only some come pre-wrapped, I would avoid anything else.
This precaution would also apply to any other grocery store that sells bulk foods (Fortinos, etc). Judging from what I’ve seen, nothing much has changed in the way bulk foods are stored.
It’s up to you the individual (and if you absolutely need to), otherwise would I prefer to avoid.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 30, 2020, 08:03:36 PM
Although the Bulk Barn isn't somewhere I'd visit in the current climate, it is still a business I've frequented in the past and will continue to in the future.Is Bulk Barn open? The bulk section (candy and nuts mostly) in my grocery store has been shut down.
https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/ (https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/)
They're open (with reduced hours, looks like 10am-6pm) but have workers doing all the scooping for you, something grocery stores probably can't handle. Although I was at a Fortinos yesterday and the bulk section was still open there.
Be careful when taking bulk items. It’s been ages that I no longer shop at a Bulk Barn Store. My late brother and I used to do so ages ago but we eventually stopped after I felt unwell after having eaten some of these bulk foods.
You never know if they’re really hygienic with so many people scooping out and opening the containers. Unless certain foods —chocolates, for example —and only some come pre-wrapped, I would avoid anything else.
This precaution would also apply to any other grocery store that sells bulk foods (Fortinos, etc). Judging from what I’ve seen, nothing much has changed in the way bulk foods are stored.
It’s up to you the individual (and if you absolutely need to), otherwise would I prefer to avoid.
Having worked in the food industry for 15 years, it really drives me crazy when people blame "not feeling well" on a business. Unless you can pinpoint the salmonella you got from eating something that was contaminated, don't drag a business through the mud because you got a belly ache.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 30, 2020, 08:15:02 PM
Although the Bulk Barn isn't somewhere I'd visit in the current climate, it is still a business I've frequented in the past and will continue to in the future.Is Bulk Barn open? The bulk section (candy and nuts mostly) in my grocery store has been shut down.
https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/ (https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/)
They're open (with reduced hours, looks like 10am-6pm) but have workers doing all the scooping for you, something grocery stores probably can't handle. Although I was at a Fortinos yesterday and the bulk section was still open there.
Be careful when taking bulk items. It’s been ages that I no longer shop at a Bulk Barn Store. My late brother and I used to do so ages ago but we eventually stopped after I felt unwell after having eaten some of these bulk foods.
You never know if they’re really hygienic with so many people scooping out and opening the containers. Unless certain foods —chocolates, for example —and only some come pre-wrapped, I would avoid anything else.
This precaution would also apply to any other grocery store that sells bulk foods (Fortinos, etc). Judging from what I’ve seen, nothing much has changed in the way bulk foods are stored.
It’s up to you the individual (and if you absolutely need to), otherwise would I prefer to avoid.
Having worked in the food industry for 15 years, it really drives me crazy when people blame "not feeling well" on a business. Unless you can pinpoint the salmonella you got from eating something that was contaminated, don't drag a business through the mud because you got a belly ache.
I caught a bad sore throat (several times at the time) after eating some of the food. Coincidence or not? I just preferred to avoid. Not blaming anyone.
In those days, hand sanitizers were not in vogue, and I used to see people sticking their hands in the containers.
Look at how careful we need to be today. Now, even the exposed bread one buys at an Italian stop is wrapped in plastic, ready to go, buns included.
There was a time when people would touch bread with their hands despite the sign in front of them advising them not to do so. Eventually people started using the provided utensil, as it is done today (pre-COVID-19).
Look, I’m not heaping anything on any business or person. Since I’ve always needed to be a little extra cautious, I shied away from buying bulk.
You do what you do. I do what I do. Capito?
Post by: Bender on March 31, 2020, 10:35:35 AM
Is Bulk Barn open? The bulk section (candy and nuts mostly) in my grocery store has been shut down.
https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/ (https://www.bulkbarn.ca/home-en/)
They're open (with reduced hours, looks like 10am-6pm) but have workers doing all the scooping for you, something grocery stores probably can't handle. Although I was at a Fortinos yesterday and the bulk section was still open there.
Be careful when taking bulk items. It’s been ages that I no longer shop at a Bulk Barn Store. My late brother and I used to do so ages ago but we eventually stopped after I felt unwell after having eaten some of these bulk foods.
You never know if they’re really hygienic with so many people scooping out and opening the containers. Unless certain foods —chocolates, for example —and only some come pre-wrapped, I would avoid anything else.
This precaution would also apply to any other grocery store that sells bulk foods (Fortinos, etc). Judging from what I’ve seen, nothing much has changed in the way bulk foods are stored.
It’s up to you the individual (and if you absolutely need to), otherwise would I prefer to avoid.
Well, it would be good if you asked someone who actually, you know, worked there.
Generally I would say the main problem lies with everyone using the same scooper, but as long as everyone does their part there should be no problem since the handle shouldn't be touching actual product, the difference now is we live in this hyper vigilant state with a new virus. But grabbing a buggy/grocery handles touching whatever in a grocery store then handling produce or anything not pre-packaged is easily just as bad.
Regarding the actual product, we rotated old bags in and out every time we received new stock, stock never touched the ground and never touched my hands, always directly into a new plastic cover directly from the box so I am literally not physically handling any actual goods. The issue is people reaching in and touching/eating goods - yes this is a problem but it's a problem with anything that isn't pre-packaged. Now there's only one person handling goods in the store vs. everyone at the grocery. Also I have never heard "I got sick and it's because of that bulk food store" except honestly from you.
Further to my point, which I think was missed, was suggesting this literally for the purpose of buying flour and other baking ingredients. Flour and other baking goods are in short supply. Bulk Barn I think would be a good option for people who want these goods. Why? Because when they buy flour it comes in 100lb bags (i would also call and ask if it's available at the store - way easier to get someone there than at No Frills/Loblaws) and now nobody is allowed in the store except two or three staff, one who will literally bag your order while you wait outside, away from other people. How is going to a grocery store, wandering around, finding no flour and coming into contact with people who half the time are socially distancing and half the time not, with even more staff, superior to this?
Post by: Stebro on March 31, 2020, 06:18:57 PM
Post by: bustaheims on March 31, 2020, 06:50:44 PM
This is how far back we have to put the swab to test you for #COVID19.
— Jessica Peck, DNP, APRN, CPNP-PC, CNE, CNL, FAANP (@DrPeckPNP) March 29, 2020
You might want to follow medical recommendations and #StayHome. pic.twitter.com/gCMqUdpsEk
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 01, 2020, 07:43:23 AM
This is how far back we have to put the swab to test you for #COVID19.
— Jessica Peck, DNP, APRN, CPNP-PC, CNE, CNL, FAANP (@DrPeckPNP) March 29, 2020
You might want to follow medical recommendations and #StayHome. pic.twitter.com/gCMqUdpsEk
F That!
Find me a bubble to live in.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 01, 2020, 10:30:15 AM
BREAKING: Toronto chief public health official says distancing measures and enforcement may have to be in effect for 12 weeks. Dr. Eileen de Villa says the goal is to save lives and reduce cumulative economic cause.
— CBC News Alerts (@CBCAlerts) April 1, 2020
Bye spring.
Post by: TML fan on April 01, 2020, 10:40:30 AM
These are our leaders... ::)
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 01, 2020, 01:14:43 PM
Having a press conference, sitting 3 ft apart from eachother, telling us to stay home and social distance.Seriously? Your sense of distance bodes well for keeping your distance if you think this is 3 feet.
These are our leaders... ::)
The advice of public health professionals has guided us throughout this crisis, and that will continue to do so going forward. But as we continue to fight #COVID19, it has become absolutely clear that this is going to be a very long battle and there is more to do. pic.twitter.com/QqCdt6FhD4
— John Tory (@JohnTory) April 1, 2020
Post by: TML fan on April 01, 2020, 08:48:46 PM
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 01, 2020, 10:24:25 PM
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/former-nhler-tomas-kaberle-delivers-food-from-wife-s-restaurant-during-outbreak-1.4875306 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/former-nhler-tomas-kaberle-delivers-food-from-wife-s-restaurant-during-outbreak-1.4875306)
Post by: Bender on April 01, 2020, 11:57:58 PM
I don't know how the media reporting is looking over there, but I'm starting to get annoyed with media here, it's like they're all looking for the youngest people who have died. The headlines here everyday is pretty much related to that, and people are getting very worried about that. I think that the media should at least make it clear how unusual it is that young people die in this disease. It may not serve public health to do what they do now. Yes, it's important to be careful and have respect for this virus and follow recommendations and rules, but I also think we need some perspective.I would rather shock people into compliance like they do when you watch drunk driving videos than giving a false sense of security by reporting only or more strongly the deaths of the old. The young dying, but also importantly, getting sick, are all vectors for this thing to spread because to them it's not a big deal. Just look at the idiot spring breakers in Florida.
Post by: Bender on April 01, 2020, 11:59:32 PM
There's no good reason not to teleconference honestly.Having a press conference, sitting 3 ft apart from eachother, telling us to stay home and social distance.Seriously? Your sense of distance bodes well for keeping your distance if you think this is 3 feet.
These are our leaders... ::)The advice of public health professionals has guided us throughout this crisis, and that will continue to do so going forward. But as we continue to fight #COVID19, it has become absolutely clear that this is going to be a very long battle and there is more to do. pic.twitter.com/QqCdt6FhD4
— John Tory (@JohnTory) April 1, 2020
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 02, 2020, 07:18:28 AM
I don't know how the media reporting is looking over there, but I'm starting to get annoyed with media here, it's like they're all looking for the youngest people who have died. The headlines here everyday is pretty much related to that, and people are getting very worried about that. I think that the media should at least make it clear how unusual it is that young people die in this disease. It may not serve public health to do what they do now. Yes, it's important to be careful and have respect for this virus and follow recommendations and rules, but I also think we need some perspective.I would rather shock people into compliance like they do when you watch drunk driving videos than giving a false sense of security by reporting only or more strongly the deaths of the old. The young dying, but also importantly, getting sick, are all vectors for this thing to spread because to them it's not a big deal. Just look at the idiot spring breakers in Florida.
If anything, it will scare some of the parents that are allowing their kids to act like idiots. Let's be honest, no teenager/20-25 year old is watching/reading the news.
That being said, I don't necessarily feel that fear mongering is the best method in general. It creates a panic and a depression that feels like it can't be defeated. I have no issue with the doom and gloom "worst case scenario" reporting. But I also think it's important for achievements and progress to be reported. It's why I feel it was important for Canada to start reporting their recoveries more accurately. Not because recovery is guaranteed...just for people to feel like we can beat this.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on April 02, 2020, 09:52:41 AM
I don't know how the media reporting is looking over there, but I'm starting to get annoyed with media here, it's like they're all looking for the youngest people who have died. The headlines here everyday is pretty much related to that, and people are getting very worried about that. I think that the media should at least make it clear how unusual it is that young people die in this disease. It may not serve public health to do what they do now. Yes, it's important to be careful and have respect for this virus and follow recommendations and rules, but I also think we need some perspective.The London Police were called to a city owned golf course after complaints of people being on the closed course. When they arrived they found that someone had cut the fence. There were thirty young men playing golf. They were given a warning and sent on their way.No charges were laid. I guess the scare tactics aren't working.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 02, 2020, 11:18:00 AM
I don't know how the media reporting is looking over there, but I'm starting to get annoyed with media here, it's like they're all looking for the youngest people who have died. The headlines here everyday is pretty much related to that, and people are getting very worried about that. I think that the media should at least make it clear how unusual it is that young people die in this disease. It may not serve public health to do what they do now. Yes, it's important to be careful and have respect for this virus and follow recommendations and rules, but I also think we need some perspective.The London Police were called to a city owned golf course after complaints of people being on the closed course. When they arrived they found that someone had cut the fence. There were thirty young men playing golf. They were given a warning and sent on their way.No charges were laid. I guess the scare tactics aren't working.
I suppose we could go the way of the Philippines:
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/shoot-them-dead-philippine-leader-033722607.html (https://ca.yahoo.com/news/shoot-them-dead-philippine-leader-033722607.html)
Quote
"My orders to the police and military ... if there is trouble and there's an occasion that they fight back and your lives are in danger, shoot them dead."
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on April 02, 2020, 12:53:42 PM
Well that might work.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 02, 2020, 01:15:36 PM
Quote
If you are young and think you are immune to COVID-19, some doctors would like you to pay attention to the following message:
"While COVID-19 is less likely to cause serious symptoms in younger people, in combination with substance use like vaping or smoking cigarettes or cannabis, it could pose a serious health threat," says a March 24 commentary written by Dr. Nicholas Chadi and Dr. Richard Bélanger of the Canadian Pediatric Society.
They are among the public health experts sounding the alarm about the possible connections between lung damage caused by smoking or vaping and increased vulnerability to the novel coronavirus.
* * *
"It's part of this idea that young people have that they're bulletproof, that these things are for older people. Well, this is about changing that attitude, and doing it very quickly," he said.
There is evidence that smoking not only leads to respiratory diseases and chronic lung conditions, but also suppresses and harms the immune system, "so that when people do get sick, they have a harder time fighting it," Hammond said.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-smoking-vaping-risks-young-people-1.5512265 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-smoking-vaping-risks-young-people-1.5512265)
Post by: Highlander on April 02, 2020, 02:09:02 PM
Reminds me of the joke, "wake up, it's time for your sleeping pill". Or in the Philippines, shoot first, ask questions....never.
Well that might work.
Post by: Nik on April 02, 2020, 03:18:53 PM
I don't know how the media reporting is looking over there, but I'm starting to get annoyed with media here, it's like they're all looking for the youngest people who have died. The headlines here everyday is pretty much related to that, and people are getting very worried about that. I think that the media should at least make it clear how unusual it is that young people die in this disease. It may not serve public health to do what they do now. Yes, it's important to be careful and have respect for this virus and follow recommendations and rules, but I also think we need some perspective.
I think the issue there is that the more young people feel as though there's no huge risk to them the more likely they are to break some of the rules which not only endangers them but the older/sicker people they might come into contact with.
Likewise, it's important to not just talk about this as it relates to death. Young people are at less risk of dying but they can still get very sick, require hospitalization and take resources needed for more at risk people. Especially now that there's talk of rationing care and trying to decide who would get treatment vs. someone else.
Post by: Nik on April 02, 2020, 03:23:02 PM
One of the most difficult things for me right now is just the extent to which this whole thing has just permeated my every thought. I went on ESPN and they were grading NFL free agent signings and, I don't know, it felt bizarrely obscene. Like, I know sports leagues still went on during WW2 and other big conflicts and I know that Football writers still have a job to do but it's just so hard for me to imagine anyone out there being able to think about whether or not the Chicago Bears paid a good price for their new strong side safety.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 02, 2020, 05:24:14 PM
One of the most difficult things for me right now is just the extent to which this whole thing has just permeated my every thought. I went on ESPN and they were grading NFL free agent signings and, I don't know, it felt bizarrely obscene. Like, I know sports leagues still went on during WW2 and other big conflicts and I know that Football writers still have a job to do but it's just so hard for me to imagine anyone out there being able to think about whether or not the Chicago Bears paid a good price for their new strong side safety.
Do you not feel that a distraction is sometimes needed in times like this?
Post by: Nik on April 02, 2020, 05:54:26 PM
Do you not feel that a distraction is sometimes needed in times like this?
Oh absolutely. I wasn't saying anyone was wrong for doing it. Like i said, what's tough for me is the way it's permeated my thoughts. If someone else is able to distract themselves with that stuff I don't begrudge it at all. I envy it. It just feels like dispatches from another universe to me right now.
edit: Although i guess my use of "obscene" implies some moral judgement. Fair enough. I suppose I more meant it in the sense of being excessive.
Post by: Arn on April 02, 2020, 06:07:39 PM
Do you not feel that a distraction is sometimes needed in times like this?
Oh absolutely. I wasn't saying anyone was wrong for doing it. Like i said, what's tough for me is the way it's permeated my thoughts. If someone else is able to distract themselves with that stuff I don't begrudge it at all. I envy it. It just feels like dispatches from another universe to me right now.
I agree. The English premier league is apparently having talks tomorrow about playing the remainder of this season in China behind closed doors in empty stadia with no fans, after it became apparent they won’t be able to do that in the uk itself any time soon.
I think that’s just wrong tbh in the current climate and is being entirely driven by economics and greed. They don’t want to have to refund the TV companies lost income for them not getting a full slate of matches.
Not that we didn’t know it already, but it’s just further proof that football clubs aren’t the old representative of society they were and have pretty much sold their souls.
I would have watched live sport pretty much every day if there was something on, football, hockey, rugby, cricket, baseball, whatever. A month down the line I really haven’t missed it as yet in all honesty.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 03, 2020, 12:11:26 AM
Quote
“Emergency volumes have plummeted all over the country,” said Dr. Daniel Kalla, the head of the emergency department at St. Paul’s Hospital, in downtown Vancouver. “People are so fearful of hospitals, understandably,” he said. They just aren’t coming in.
Quiet ERs could be a sign that social isolation is working. Fewer people out in the world mean fewer car crashes, drunken brawls and other scourges of the ER. But doctors warn it could also foreshadow a significant problem to come.
“We’re certainly hearing stories of people with abdominal pains and chest pains and all sorts of bad symptoms, like stroke symptoms, who are just not coming to the hospital because they’re too afraid,” said Belchetz. “It’s actually somewhat of a tragedy.”
For some emergency medicine doctors, meanwhile, the slowdown in admissions has created something of an unexpected lull right before what could be the most harrowing stretch of their careers. “Very fortunately, we haven’t seen this big surge in the super sick, which we were prepared for, and have been expecting,” said Kalla. “God willing, we’ll never see it, but the next two weeks will tell.”
https://nationalpost.com/news/eerily-quiet-ers-before-covid-19-surge-could-mean-problems-down-the-road-doctors-say#click=https://t.co/yiqRg0083M
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 03, 2020, 12:56:34 AM
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bill-gates-foundation-philanthropy/
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 03, 2020, 07:40:30 AM
Do you not feel that a distraction is sometimes needed in times like this?
Oh absolutely. I wasn't saying anyone was wrong for doing it. Like i said, what's tough for me is the way it's permeated my thoughts. If someone else is able to distract themselves with that stuff I don't begrudge it at all. I envy it. It just feels like dispatches from another universe to me right now.
I also feel as though the NFL has carried on like nothing is happening. They are the league less effected by this. For instance, I don't really care that Tom Brady is renting someone elses house in Tampa. That is not news.
What I have enjoyed is the classic sports. I watched about 6 innings of the Jays game last night. I haven't watched 6 innings of a Jays game in years. I watched a good chunk of the Flames beating the Habs in the 89 finals.
I personally think it's only healthy that people decompress. I can only read the news for so long before going into a deep depression.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 03, 2020, 08:38:06 AM
Trump, you incompetent idiot! You sent 18 tons of PPE to China early but ignored warnings & called COVID19 concerns a hoax. You've endangered doctors, nurses, aids, orderlies, & janitors - all risking their lives to save ours. Pray 4 forgiveness for the harm that you're causing!
— Maxine Waters (@RepMaxineWaters) March 30, 2020
Post by: TML fan on April 03, 2020, 10:25:31 AM
If you're not going to enforce rules or policy, what's the point?
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on April 03, 2020, 11:29:34 AM
We have not been out of the house for over a week. I finally decided to make a grocery store run yesterday. I had a list to get that should last for two weeks. There were numerous couples shopping and I watched a woman buying bananas pick up 8 different bunches and put them back. I finally asked her from a safe distance if she intended to touch them all.She scowled at me took the ones in her hand and walked up to the checkout line. that was the only thing she bought.
Post by: princedpw on April 03, 2020, 11:45:53 AM
Oh boy does this speak volumes!Trump, you incompetent idiot! You sent 18 tons of PPE to China early but ignored warnings & called COVID19 concerns a hoax. You've endangered doctors, nurses, aids, orderlies, & janitors - all risking their lives to save ours. Pray 4 forgiveness for the harm that you're causing!
— Maxine Waters (@RepMaxineWaters) March 30, 2020
One of the points in that quote is not like the others.
Sending PPE to other nations, in this case, China when they need it, is charitable, generous and moral. It may well have saved lives. It may also have reduced transmission within China and then subsequently to the rest of the world, including Canada. In general, selfish behavior in which resources are hoarded and saved for the future instead of used "now" is highly globally suboptimal. In contrast, altruism, which we hope will be reciprocated is the best way to fight this.
Post by: princedpw on April 03, 2020, 11:47:30 AM
We have not been out of the house for over a week. I finally decided to make a grocery store run yesterday. I had a list to get that should last for two weeks. There were numerous couples shopping and I watched a woman buying bananas pick up 8 different bunches and put them back. I finally asked her from a safe distance if she intended to touch them all.She scowled at me took the ones in her hand and walked up to the checkout line. that was the only thing she bought.
I'm glad you made the comment and absorbed the scowl. She sucks.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 03, 2020, 11:57:51 AM
We have not been out of the house for over a week. I finally decided to make a grocery store run yesterday. I had a list to get that should last for two weeks. There were numerous couples shopping and I watched a woman buying bananas pick up 8 different bunches and put them back. I finally asked her from a safe distance if she intended to touch them all.She scowled at me took the ones in her hand and walked up to the checkout line. that was the only thing she bought.
I like banana bread as much as the next person, but it hardly warrants a specific trip to the grocery store right now.
Post by: Deebo on April 03, 2020, 12:08:42 PM
We have not been out of the house for over a week. I finally decided to make a grocery store run yesterday. I had a list to get that should last for two weeks. There were numerous couples shopping and I watched a woman buying bananas pick up 8 different bunches and put them back. I finally asked her from a safe distance if she intended to touch them all.She scowled at me took the ones in her hand and walked up to the checkout line. that was the only thing she bought.
I like banana bread as much as the next person, but it hardly warrants a specific trip to the grocery store right now.
Someone going to the grocery store to buy one item of that nature would suggest they aren't taking this whole thing seriously as probably has been potentially exposing themselves to on a regular basis. Those are the people I would be afraid of getting close to.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 03, 2020, 12:19:44 PM
Someone going to the grocery store to buy one item of that nature would suggest they aren't taking this whole thing seriously as probably has been potentially exposing themselves to on a regular basis. Those are the people I would be afraid of getting close to.
There's still too many people who think they can find "loopholes" in the idea of social/physical distancing.
Post by: Highlander on April 03, 2020, 01:03:46 PM
My wife was at the local supermarket with her homemade mask and latex gloves slathered up with Purcell and there was a man touching every single pepper on the shelve with his bare. She didn't say what Wayne said but she also didn't buy the pepper she was intending to buy. Why are people so damn ignorant?
We have not been out of the house for over a week. I finally decided to make a grocery store run yesterday. I had a list to get that should last for two weeks. There were numerous couples shopping and I watched a woman buying bananas pick up 8 different bunches and put them back. I finally asked her from a safe distance if she intended to touch them all.She scowled at me took the ones in her hand and walked up to the checkout line. that was the only thing she bought.
Post by: Highlander on April 03, 2020, 01:05:49 PM
Much talk has been made about Bill Gates and his philanthropic interest in aiding against the Coronavirus pandemic. A closer scrutiny of his foundation (& other foundations owned by billionaires such as Warren Buffet)) show enormous conflicts of interest. Just who are these foundations really helping?This is the same Bill Gates that in a 2015 TED talk warned of the coronavirus saying that it would not be nuclear conflict that we had to worry about, but a virus that looked exactly like the picture Bill pulled out in his talk. He also pulled out pictures of masks, plastic shields, ventilators, gloves and field beds. Warned us that this would be on us in 5 to 10 years. I guess world leaders where listening as they signed contracts for billion dollar warplanes etc.
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bill-gates-foundation-philanthropy/
Post by: Highlander on April 03, 2020, 01:11:30 PM
Post by: L K on April 03, 2020, 01:35:37 PM
A second for some perspective here: Approx. 22,000 Canadians die each month based upon 2019 figures. I had 6 friends and family die just before Coronvirus arrived in force. This happened in a 3 week span. Two died from Cancer, one a heart attack, 3 from old age/dementia. Yet if they had died after exposure to Coronavirus would they have died from Coronavirus or natural causes?
It really depends on the acute cause. When we fill out death certificates the form has several things that show up.
The Ontario death certficate has a few lines:
1) Immediate cause of death
2) Antecedent causes that led to death
3) Significant conditions contributing to death but not directly related to the cause of death
So lets say you died from a bad pneumonia
1) Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome
2) Pneumonia
3) COPD
Line two has a part a, part b, part c kind of list. So for something like COVID-19. It would be COVID-19 leads to Pneumonia.
Now lets say you have COPD but also died from COVID
1) Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome
2a) Pneumonia
2b) COVID-19
3) COPD
If we take say the dementia patient it would depend on what symptoms they had at the time of death.
If it was someone who was in the end stages of their dementia and they passed away without clear respiratory symptoms but did secondarily test positive for COVID they still could have a cause of death as dementia. If they died from acute respiratory symptoms their cause of death would be the respiratory failure and not dementia. So COVID will certainly change the most likely cause of death for some people.
Post by: L K on April 03, 2020, 01:42:54 PM
We have not been out of the house for over a week. I finally decided to make a grocery store run yesterday. I had a list to get that should last for two weeks. There were numerous couples shopping and I watched a woman buying bananas pick up 8 different bunches and put them back. I finally asked her from a safe distance if she intended to touch them all.She scowled at me took the ones in her hand and walked up to the checkout line. that was the only thing she bought.
I like banana bread as much as the next person, but it hardly warrants a specific trip to the grocery store right now.
Someone going to the grocery store to buy one item of that nature would suggest they aren't taking this whole thing seriously as probably has been potentially exposing themselves to on a regular basis. Those are the people I would be afraid of getting close to.
This is why the "oh its young kids" or "oh its just the elderly" stuff needs to stop. We should scold the Spring break kids. We should scold the 80 year olds. We should scold the soccer moms.
The follow on the discussion theme of fear mongering vs. focusing on positive. Yes, we should definitely be celebrating the success stories more. We should be talking about the recovered people. We should be praising the health care workers who are finishing their shifts and going back for more the next day. We should be having better respect for the grocers and people still serving coffees out of the drive-thru.
We also need to highlight the start reality that no one individual can escape the disease if they have the wrong factors and it doesn't matter if you are healthy or never get sick. If you aren't protecting yourself, you are doing it to protect others and being gentle doesn't get the message across to idiots who think they are above everyone else.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 03, 2020, 03:02:21 PM
The follow on the discussion theme of fear mongering vs. focusing on positive. Yes, we should definitely be celebrating the success stories more. We should be talking about the recovered people. We should be praising the health care workers who are finishing their shifts and going back for more the next day. We should be having better respect for the grocers and people still serving coffees out of the drive-thru.
We also need to highlight the start reality that no one individual can escape the disease if they have the wrong factors and it doesn't matter if you are healthy or never get sick. If you aren't protecting yourself, you are doing it to protect others and being gentle doesn't get the message across to idiots who think they are above everyone else.
Very well said.
Post by: Stebro on April 03, 2020, 04:27:48 PM
I sent critical comments with my perspective to a big paper here, and asked them to inform people that we have 3 deaths under the age of 50 of a population of over 10 million (obviously all of them are not 0-50). Kudos to them since they posted it, and just stating that what I said was correct, and they will try to lift that perspective more.
Post by: Highlander on April 03, 2020, 06:48:38 PM
In Sweden I think we have 3 deaths under the age of 50, and the ones who seem to worry the most are people under 50. Media is constantly posting articles about young people all over the world that die. So I hold media responsible if mental health issues increase a lot for young people, well the media and unemployment.Hey Stebro, What is going on over in Sweden? My wife is British and goes to the BBC site and she seems to think that people are out and about, eating in resto's and bars and such.
I sent critical comments with my perspective to a big paper here, and asked them to inform people that we have 3 deaths under the age of 50 of a population of over 10 million (obviously all of them are not 0-50). Kudos to them since they posted it, and just stating that what I said was correct, and they will try to lift that perspective more.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52076293?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/c77jz3md4rwt/sweden&link_location=live-reporting-story
Looks like you are having more fun than poor Moi!
Post by: Stebro on April 03, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
Hey Highlander, I'll try to make a summary of what it's like in Sweden right now:In Sweden I think we have 3 deaths under the age of 50, and the ones who seem to worry the most are people under 50. Media is constantly posting articles about young people all over the world that die. So I hold media responsible if mental health issues increase a lot for young people, well the media and unemployment.Hey Stebro, What is going on over in Sweden? My wife is British and goes to the BBC site and she seems to think that people are out and about, eating in resto's and bars and such.
I sent critical comments with my perspective to a big paper here, and asked them to inform people that we have 3 deaths under the age of 50 of a population of over 10 million (obviously all of them are not 0-50). Kudos to them since they posted it, and just stating that what I said was correct, and they will try to lift that perspective more.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52076293?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/c77jz3md4rwt/sweden&link_location=live-reporting-story
Looks like you are having more fun than poor Moi!
*People above 70+ and risk groups are allowed to go outside as long as they keep a distance, what usually is recommended here is at least 2 meters. They are recommended to avoid crowds, they are not longer allowed in supermarkets, pharmacies, restaurants etc. So basically they can only leave the house to go for a walk.
*Only crowds up to 50 is allowed, however there are regulations/recommendations in relation to that number. So supermarkets for example are supposed to have control over how many they have in the store, and must make sure that there's a distance of about 2 meters, when standing in queue.
*Just like most other countries we have issues with equipment and staff.
*Our biggest issue is residential homes. In a recent investigation it was found that the virus had been spread to 1/3 residential homes in Stockholm, which obviously is a big problem. So there are emergency meetings on how to deal with this. Since a while back people are not allowed to visit residential homes.
*As for restaurants and bars, you are only allowed to make orders while sitting by a table and keeping a distance as well as you can. Restaurant are responsible for doing what it takes to make sure that this works, other they will be shut down most likely. People are not allowed to hang in a bar.
*The government is working on a legislation so they can make faster decisions of shutting things down if it is needed, however the opposition have some democratic concerns about this, but we will see where it ends.
*In general in Sweden the people have a lot of confidence in governments as well as different authorities, so there is a mutual trust between the people and the government and the public agencies. In general we've only been given recommendations in Sweden, which people for most part have followed. There has been a debate here on whether the "experts" in the public health agency is getting to much influence or not in relation to the government. One thing that is important to note is that the public agencies here are independent, so we don't have ministerial rule here, which is quite different compared to most countries. A recommendation here from a public agency or the government is pretty much as efficient as a law in general.
*The public health agency is constantly stressing that we have to think long term, and they don't think that a complete lock down would be sustainable for a long period of time if needed. Therefore they are trying to achieve similar results as other countries with recommendations, which people for most part follow. They're not ruling out a lock down though, but as I said they say that it could only work for a very short time.
*There has been a lot of discussion about Sweden's strategy. Basically what I think the strategy is based on what I hear is that the public health agency is worried about the long term. If we shut everything down now, fewer people might get infected, and then they are afraid that a second wave will hit in the autumn or winter when it will be colder here and easier for the virus to spread. At that time we will most likely not have a vaccine, and maybe not other cure either, and we don't know how deadly a second wave will be if it comes. However they are admitting that they are unsure of how the immunity works, for how long and to what extent. But they are confident that we will see more waves of the corona virus. I think the general strategy is herd immunity while protecting risk groups, but if the death tolls escalate too much I think they might change their minds. The Netherlands are currently using a similar strategy to Sweden's.
*Some scientists/doctors are not in agreement with the public health agency over the strategy, an e-mail with concerns signed by around 2000 was sent to the public health agency. However some experts in Norway and Denmark said that their own countries decisions were political and not based on science.
*As for pictures of Stockholm, I've been there a couple of times in the last few weeks, there's not a lot of people around. In Swedish media it's been called a ghost town.
*Stockholm just used a specific option in a union deal, which means that the staff
in the healthcare have to work 8 hours more per week (48 in total now) if I remember it correctly, and in return the staff will get 220% of their salary.
*We have had big issues with public transports. People who can are advised to work from home, and people have been asked not to use public transports unless absolutely necessary, they are still trying to find a better solution for this, and in Stockholm they are working on a solution where staff in the healthcare etc can take taxis for free instead, to try to prevent them from getting infected.
*High schools/Colleges/Universities are not open, people study from home.
*People with any kind of symptom have been told to stay at home, and the government have changed some rules regarding sick leave. So the first day you get 70% of your salary, from then on it's at least 80% (it depends on which union you are apart of). The government also removed the need for a doctor's note for the first 14 days, usually you need that after 7 days, but they extended that period. The public health agency have also stated that they want people to be out on a regular basis even if it's not to the same extent before. But they want you to keep a distance, they see it as a risk to the public health if people are not outside every now and then and move around.
So that's the short summary :D
Post by: Nik on April 03, 2020, 11:56:12 PM
You know, when all of this is over I really hope there's some real accountability for how this all shook down. And I don't mean accountability in the way people sometimes mean it politically as "I don't agree with the PM's politics so I hope this hurts his chances at the next election" because any fault in the Government's response can be equally thrown at the opposition parties who weren't advocating for anything better.
But, like, we're going to need to know why the reaction to this was so bad. Why everything that should have happened in early February happened in mid-late March. I'm not looking to score points here but the people who are supposed to be looking out for us should have been better prepared. Both federally and provincially. And not in a Bill Gates-esque "We know a pandemic is coming sense" but like, we knew it was here in February. All of those chances shouldn't have been taken.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 04, 2020, 03:29:41 AM
The fact that the United States, once a world leader, has no national nor unifying plan and is nothing more than a disorganized and rudderless mess, in what should have amounted to a concerted and direct effort to at least be somewhat better prepared & equipped to handle such a scenario, is a result of the ineptitude and volatility of it’s leader in the White House.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/)
BTW Trump’s decision to halt supply shipments to Canada is very frankly, by any other name, insulting.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/3m-warns-of-white-house-order-to-stop-exporting-masks-to-canada-163060
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 04, 2020, 08:12:07 AM
Trump was warned as early as January that something wasn’t right concerning the situation in China by U.S. Inteliugence. In fact, it was as early as December when alarm began to sprout in earnest. The Trump administration, namely Trump himself chose to ignore such warnings. The original pandemic intelligence council, propped up by the previous (Obama) administration that was put in place to keep watch on outbreaks of Ebola and other potential epidemics & pandemics, was long disbanded by the Trump administration.
The fact that the United States, once a world leader, has no national nor unifying plan and is nothing more than a disorganized and rudderless mess, in what should have amounted to a concerted and direct effort to at least be somewhat better prepared & equipped to handle such a scenario, is a result of the ineptitude and volatility of it’s leader in the White House.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/)
BTW Trump’s decision to halt supply shipments to Canada is very frankly, by any other name, insulting.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/3m-warns-of-white-house-order-to-stop-exporting-masks-to-canada-163060
That's great and all, but Canada isn't much better based on their reaction. They would be receiving close to the same intelligence and warnings. They also did nothing until Mid March. And then, even at that, it's been a slow crawl to a lockdown. They are so worried about their political lives, for the most part, that they've chosen to sit on the fence instead of being leaders, and leading. Trudeau getting on TV every day at 11 and skirting questions does nothing. Listen to his interviews. It's just regurgitated crap about what they're doing for us. He sounds like a high school class president going for reelection. Talking about all the pizza days he's going to get for everyone.
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 04, 2020, 08:41:20 AM
Did many get it wrong? And why physical distancing has become ever more imperative.
Quote
“The best evidence around the virus that we have is that the virus is not contagious when people are not symptomatic."
But a growing body of research indicates they were wrong. In fact, people don't have to appear ill at all to infect others.
Jeffrey Shaman, a professor of environmental health sciences at Columbia University in New York, says he is frustrated when people deny that asymptomatic spread can happen.
Shaman and other researchers argue that even two months ago, officials like Tam and Hajdu should have been more open to the possibility of asymptomatic transmission, considering by that point there was a flurry of research being undertaken by scientists racing to understand how the virus was spreading so fast and far. Many of those researchers suspected asymptomatic transmission.
His research found that while undocumented cases — those with mild or no symptoms who did not have a confirmed diagnosis at the time — were only half as infectious as symptomatic ones, they were the source for nearly 80 per cent of documented cases. That's because people who feel fine are the ones out and about, travelling and interacting with more people.
Asked whether it's fair to say these so-called silent spreaders are "super-spreaders," Shaman replied: "Yes."
Dr. Allison McGeer, an infectious disease specialist with Sinai Health System in Toronto, argues while Tam's messaging about asymptomatic spread back in January "might not have been ideal," there's a good chance people would not have been onside with major restrictions to their lives before they could see proof of how serious the problem was. After all, Canada only reported its first case of COVID-19 in late January.
"There is evidence that if officials appear uncertain about things, people lose trust. They get angry. They don't follow guidance. So we put this demand on public health people to have answers when there are no answers. And that's just an impossible situation," she said.
Story:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-silent-spreaders-1.5520006 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-silent-spreaders-1.5520006)
Post by: Nik on April 04, 2020, 09:21:48 AM
They are so worried about their political lives, for the most part, that they've chosen to sit on the fence instead of being leaders, and leading. Trudeau getting on TV every day at 11 and skirting questions does nothing. Listen to his interviews. It's just regurgitated crap about what they're doing for us. He sounds like a high school class president going for reelection. Talking about all the pizza days he's going to get for everyone.
See, I think this is exactly the sort of thing that doesn't really help. "Leadership" means different things to different people and whether you fall into the group or not, there are people who think what Trudeau is doing is effective at getting the government's message across and comforting. A lot of people like the economic response.
When it comes time for genuine accountability we're going to have to deal in specifics. Why weren't specific policies implemented at specific times and so on. Talking about "leadership" in the absence of specifics seems destined to fall into typical partisan disagreements where a lot of minds are largely made up before things start.
Also, as much as we might not want to hear it a lot of those questions aren't going to come with easy answers. We'll need to figure out things for next time as much as recriminate here. Do we want the PM to have the power to unilaterally impose a nationwide shutdown? To impose quarantine on asymptomatic passengers? To dictate provincial health policy?
Post by: Highlander on April 04, 2020, 11:08:05 AM
Post by: Highlander on April 04, 2020, 11:28:49 AM
Post by: princedpw on April 04, 2020, 11:40:25 AM
Much talk has been made about Bill Gates and his philanthropic interest in aiding against the Coronavirus pandemic. A closer scrutiny of his foundation (& other foundations owned by billionaires such as Warren Buffet)) show enormous conflicts of interest. Just who are these foundations really helping?
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bill-gates-foundation-philanthropy/
You need to look at the big picture. The big picture is that the vast majority of the charity goes to good causes. Buried deep in the article is this line:
... there is no credible argument that Bill and Melinda Gates use charity primarily as a vehicle to enrich themselves or their foundation...
Ten seconds of googling came up with these facts:
* the bill gates foundation has donated more than $40 billion to the elimination of extreme poverty
* the bill gates foundation recently donated 1 billion to fight malaria
Did Bill Gates give $80 million to the school his kids attend? Yes. Is that wrong? No. When put in the context of him giving $40 billion to fight poverty, it is totally irrelevant. Critiquing him for giving money to his kids school is like critiquing someone for buying girlscout cookies from a Toronto child. That money that you used to buy girlscout cookies could have been used to feed a starving child in Africa or buy a mosquito net for an impoverished family. If you have ever gone out to a restaurant or bought a gift for anyone in Toronto, you are as guilty as Bill Gates of spending money on something that is inessential when there are people around the world dying of starvation or AIDS or other diseases.
When it comes to the article's points about him giving money to businesses, those are also a drop in the bucket. But more importantly, giving to those businesses might be the most effective way to get aid to people in need. For example, the article states that he gave $19 million donation to a Mastercard affiliate in 2014 to “increase usage of digital financial products by poor adults” in Kenya. The article makes no attempt to investigate whether that might be a good thing. It's easy to imagine it is a good thing -- it gives access to cash to poor people to help develop their economy. The article is trying to slime him, for what reason, I have no idea (probably clickbait), but the notion that he's somehow trying to make money off by donating to a program that helps get financial products to Kenyans is beyond ludicrous. If Bill Gates wanted to make money, there are plenty of vastly better ways he could do it than that.
Let's focus our critiques on people that are actually evil -- the Kochs and their network, Rupert Murdoch, Sheldon Adelson, Mitch McConnell, the Trumps, the Kushners, DeVos, etc.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 04, 2020, 12:00:41 PM
They are so worried about their political lives, for the most part, that they've chosen to sit on the fence instead of being leaders, and leading. Trudeau getting on TV every day at 11 and skirting questions does nothing. Listen to his interviews. It's just regurgitated crap about what they're doing for us. He sounds like a high school class president going for reelection. Talking about all the pizza days he's going to get for everyone.
See, I think this is exactly the sort of thing that doesn't really help. "Leadership" means different things to different people and whether you fall into the group or not, there are people who think what Trudeau is doing is effective at getting the government's message across and comforting. A lot of people like the economic response.
In all honesty, though I'm not a Trudeau guy, I for the most part feel like he's handled this quite well. The same goes for Ford. I think he's a bumbling buffoon for the most part but I also can acknowledge that he's handling this quite well.
What I don't appreciate is the political positioning being done across the board. Yes I picked Trudeau in my previous post, but it's being done by Conservatives, NDP, and Liberals. I get it, really I do. They are politicians. Good politicians turn a crisis into a gain. I just don't think that now is the time.
Post by: Bender on April 04, 2020, 02:19:13 PM
Post by: Bender on April 04, 2020, 02:27:48 PM
I had a hunch that the issue is yes, people die naturally all the time, sometimes due chronic conditions, something like seasonal flu picks people off also, but Dr. David Fisman also pointed out, COVID kills people because of COVID. I just think to myself I have an underlying condition of asthma. I have had breathing issues when sick previously but I've almost never been scared of the flu and my symptoms are well managed. COVID throws a wrench into all of that. Certain people with underlying conditions could be predisposed to ARDS if they get COVID but under 99% of normal circumstances a lot of these problems are manageable and people can live long lives even with the multitude of illnesses people contract every year, COVID has a much higher probability of killing those same people. Moreover the number of people requiring oxygen/ventilators seem to be a giveaway that this will kill people if we aren't able to deliver pretty drastic medical intervention. Some people would've died anyway with a different illness but my hunch would be a large proportion of the population would still be with us otherwise.A second for some perspective here: Approx. 22,000 Canadians die each month based upon 2019 figures. I had 6 friends and family die just before Coronvirus arrived in force. This happened in a 3 week span. Two died from Cancer, one a heart attack, 3 from old age/dementia. Yet if they had died after exposure to Coronavirus would they have died from Coronavirus or natural causes?
It really depends on the acute cause. When we fill out death certificates the form has several things that show up.
The Ontario death certficate has a few lines:
1) Immediate cause of death
2) Antecedent causes that led to death
3) Significant conditions contributing to death but not directly related to the cause of death
So lets say you died from a bad pneumonia
1) Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome
2) Pneumonia
3) COPD
Line two has a part a, part b, part c kind of list. So for something like COVID-19. It would be COVID-19 leads to Pneumonia.
Now lets say you have COPD but also died from COVID
1) Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome
2a) Pneumonia
2b) COVID-19
3) COPD
If we take say the dementia patient it would depend on what symptoms they had at the time of death.
If it was someone who was in the end stages of their dementia and they passed away without clear respiratory symptoms but did secondarily test positive for COVID they still could have a cause of death as dementia. If they died from acute respiratory symptoms their cause of death would be the respiratory failure and not dementia. So COVID will certainly change the most likely cause of death for some people.
Post by: Bender on April 04, 2020, 03:07:42 PM
In Sweden I think we have 3 deaths under the age of 50, and the ones who seem to worry the most are people under 50. Media is constantly posting articles about young people all over the world that die. So I hold media responsible if mental health issues increase a lot for young people, well the media and unemployment.There's a fine line between being overly fixated on deaths and rates but also getting the message out there that nobody should take things lightly. Again, they are probably hoping to shock people into recognizing that this is a big deal. I agree that it's not accurate to fixate on cherry picking deaths of young people worldwide but I also wouldn't want there to be complacency amongst the young just because you are statistically less likely to die than someone who is older. For example, a 0.1% death rate still isn't a good death rate if we are looking at an illness that could affect 50%+ of a total demographic group.
I sent critical comments with my perspective to a big paper here, and asked them to inform people that we have 3 deaths under the age of 50 of a population of over 10 million (obviously all of them are not 0-50). Kudos to them since they posted it, and just stating that what I said was correct, and they will try to lift that perspective more.
I think more important data would be what proportion of people under 50 require hospitalization and ICU assistance. In Canada people under 50 make up 50% of confirmed cases and it seems like people under 50 are in the 20% of hospitalizations range. It is true that one of the primary factors of death is age, but it is also likely true that a good chunk of young patients do need medical help to pull out of this. What happens when there aren't enough hospital beds, oxygen masks, ventilators or health care staff? You get Spain. In Spain the death rate ranges from 0.2%-0.5% under 50. Again, that still isn't a good rate. If 1,000,000 get it you're looking at 3,000 deaths, how many would be prevented with stronger measures?
If people under 50 are worrying the most then wouldn't it stand to reason they would be extra vigilant? If they are the unwitting carriers of this disease that then kills a large portion of the older population and subsequently overloading the health care system then wouldn't it make sense for increased cautiousness on their part? Just because you probably won't die doesn't mean it won't have major butterfly effects elsewhere.
And I mean if you're going to use the Netherlands as a comparable they have one of the worst death rates per 100,000 in Europe. Sweden and the Netherlands are not on good trajectories regarding cases or death rates. Its not just about what's happened or what is happening now - this is what got everyone into this mess. It's about recognizing what will happen in 2 weeks, a month, 3 months from now etc. Let's see what the death rates look like when all is said and done. It won't be pretty, even amongst the young, who probably wouldn't die due to illness under normal circumstances anyway unless it was COVID related. We just got the epidemiological outlook for Ontario yesterday - it doesn't paint a good picture unless we really try to clamp down on this.
Post by: Bender on April 04, 2020, 03:17:27 PM
Hear hear!! Every organization is deserving of scrutiny but I'd rather deal with ones that are overtly awful first rather than worrying about one that, though has flaws, is very likely a net positive for the world.Much talk has been made about Bill Gates and his philanthropic interest in aiding against the Coronavirus pandemic. A closer scrutiny of his foundation (& other foundations owned by billionaires such as Warren Buffet)) show enormous conflicts of interest. Just who are these foundations really helping?
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bill-gates-foundation-philanthropy/
You need to look at the big picture. The big picture is that the vast majority of the charity goes to good causes. Buried deep in the article is this line:
... there is no credible argument that Bill and Melinda Gates use charity primarily as a vehicle to enrich themselves or their foundation...
Ten seconds of googling came up with these facts:
* the bill gates foundation has donated more than $40 billion to the elimination of extreme poverty
* the bill gates foundation recently donated 1 billion to fight malaria
Did Bill Gates give $80 million to the school his kids attend? Yes. Is that wrong? No. When put in the context of him giving $40 billion to fight poverty, it is totally irrelevant. Critiquing him for giving money to his kids school is like critiquing someone for buying girlscout cookies from a Toronto child. That money that you used to buy girlscout cookies could have been used to feed a starving child in Africa or buy a mosquito net for an impoverished family. If you have ever gone out to a restaurant or bought a gift for anyone in Toronto, you are as guilty as Bill Gates of spending money on something that is inessential when there are people around the world dying of starvation or AIDS or other diseases.
When it comes to the article's points about him giving money to businesses, those are also a drop in the bucket. But more importantly, giving to those businesses might be the most effective way to get aid to people in need. For example, the article states that he gave $19 million donation to a Mastercard affiliate in 2014 to “increase usage of digital financial products by poor adults” in Kenya. The article makes no attempt to investigate whether that might be a good thing. It's easy to imagine it is a good thing -- it gives access to cash to poor people to help develop their economy. The article is trying to slime him, for what reason, I have no idea (probably clickbait), but the notion that he's somehow trying to make money off by donating to a program that helps get financial products to Kenyans is beyond ludicrous. If Bill Gates wanted to make money, there are plenty of vastly better ways he could do it than that.
Let's focus our critiques on people that are actually evil -- the Kochs and their network, Rupert Murdoch, Sheldon Adelson, Mitch McConnell, the Trumps, the Kushners, DeVos, etc.
Post by: Bender on April 04, 2020, 03:29:53 PM
I understand people want more concrete answers but in some instances it makes sense that he's skirting certain questions. He was baited a few times into slamming the US for their 3M decision yesterday. No PM in their right mind would do that and if he did that would be grossly negligent considering they have swayed the President's advisors in most positions he's taken in the past. Say they need us, say we will ramp up production, give him a couple compliments and letting our politicians do that work vs. slamming the States publicly is exactly what should be done. People love blustery populist tone but I really don't think it makes sense right now. I'm willing to cut him some slack for now in not delving into the actual specifics of each question.They are so worried about their political lives, for the most part, that they've chosen to sit on the fence instead of being leaders, and leading. Trudeau getting on TV every day at 11 and skirting questions does nothing. Listen to his interviews. It's just regurgitated crap about what they're doing for us. He sounds like a high school class president going for reelection. Talking about all the pizza days he's going to get for everyone.
See, I think this is exactly the sort of thing that doesn't really help. "Leadership" means different things to different people and whether you fall into the group or not, there are people who think what Trudeau is doing is effective at getting the government's message across and comforting. A lot of people like the economic response.
When it comes time for genuine accountability we're going to have to deal in specifics. Why weren't specific policies implemented at specific times and so on. Talking about "leadership" in the absence of specifics seems destined to fall into typical partisan disagreements where a lot of minds are largely made up before things start.
Also, as much as we might not want to hear it a lot of those questions aren't going to come with easy answers. We'll need to figure out things for next time as much as recriminate here. Do we want the PM to have the power to unilaterally impose a nationwide shutdown? To impose quarantine on asymptomatic passengers? To dictate provincial health policy?
I think at this point I'm honestly less concerned with Federal leadership and more concerned with Public Health Ontario, questionable testing rates, withholding epidemiological info for quite a while, even amongst non-govt epidemiologists etc. Time to look beyond just the political figures.
Post by: Stebro on April 04, 2020, 04:17:21 PM
Most people here have respect for both the virus and the recommendations, there are some idiots yes, but they are very few. When I see people outside they usually keep a bigger distance than 2 meters, and you can tell my people's faces that they are taking this seriously. I don't think it's smart by media to scare people like they do, I think it's smarter to do what our public health agency did which is they told young people to be careful to protected their family and friends who are in risk groups, and people seem to have been listening. Our big problem attitude wise have actually been old people, early on a lot of old people were like "I'm independent, I've experienced more flu's than you, I can handle this etc". However the public health agency have constantly told old people that it's not only about them, and how they are risking other people's lives also if they don't follow the recommendations. Now we see in polls that old people are starting to listen more, maybe it's related to the death tolls among the old too.In Sweden I think we have 3 deaths under the age of 50, and the ones who seem to worry the most are people under 50. Media is constantly posting articles about young people all over the world that die. So I hold media responsible if mental health issues increase a lot for young people, well the media and unemployment.There's a fine line between being overly fixated on deaths and rates but also getting the message out there that nobody should take things lightly. Again, they are probably hoping to shock people into recognizing that this is a big deal. I agree that it's not accurate to fixate on cherry picking deaths of young people worldwide but I also wouldn't want there to be complacency amongst the young just because you are statistically less likely to die than someone who is older. For example, a 0.1% death rate still isn't a good death rate if we are looking at an illness that could affect 50%+ of a total demographic group.
I sent critical comments with my perspective to a big paper here, and asked them to inform people that we have 3 deaths under the age of 50 of a population of over 10 million (obviously all of them are not 0-50). Kudos to them since they posted it, and just stating that what I said was correct, and they will try to lift that perspective more.
I think more important data would be what proportion of people under 50 require hospitalization and ICU assistance. In Canada people under 50 make up 50% of confirmed cases and it seems like people under 50 are in the 20% of hospitalizations range. It is true that one of the primary factors of death is age, but it is also likely true that a good chunk of young patients do need medical help to pull out of this. What happens when there aren't enough hospital beds, oxygen masks, ventilators or health care staff? You get Spain. In Spain the death rate ranges from 0.2%-0.5% under 50. Again, that still isn't a good rate. If 1,000,000 get it you're looking at 3,000 deaths, how many would be prevented with stronger measures?
If people under 50 are worrying the most then wouldn't it stand to reason they would be extra vigilant? If they are the unwitting carriers of this disease that then kills a large portion of the older population and subsequently overloading the health care system then wouldn't it make sense for increased cautiousness on their part? Just because you probably won't die doesn't mean it won't have major butterfly effects elsewhere.
And I mean if you're going to use the Netherlands as a comparable they have one of the worst death rates per 100,000 in Europe. Sweden and the Netherlands are not on good trajectories regarding cases or death rates. Its not just about what's happened or what is happening now - this is what got everyone into this mess. It's about recognizing what will happen in 2 weeks, a month, 3 months from now etc. Let's see what the death rates look like when all is said and done. It won't be pretty, even amongst the young, who probably wouldn't die due to illness under normal circumstances anyway unless it was COVID related. We just got the epidemiological outlook for Ontario yesterday - it doesn't paint a good picture unless we really try to clamp down on this.
One of the reasons why we have had a lot of deaths among the old people in residential homes is due to lack of masks. Part of the blame I actually put on France. Why? Because Sweden had ordered 1 million masks from China, that have been stuck in France for over a week while we have an acute need. After a lot of political pressure from Sweden, France finally decided to let the plane go. This is a problem I see internationally, I heard about the issue regarding 3M. Sweden also had problems within in the EU when we sent supplies to Italy, and they got stuck in another country refusing to let them go. Another thing that is important to note is that some countries are only counting deaths at hospitals, Sweden is counting deaths whether it happens in a hospital or a residential home etc. As for Sweden we have about 635 cases/million people, however this number is probably too low as it's also related to how much you are testing, the Netherlands are currently at 953 cases/million. As for ICU patients we've had 520 ICU cases in total, but currently have 373 in ICU. Important to note is that a lot of the people that died haven't received ICU care. The issue for us with residential homes is the lack of protective equipment, it's not related to the strategy itself. The thing is someone have to feed the old people at residential homes etc, and that is usually young, that's the most logical reason why we've seen a lot of deaths here imo.
The way I see it there are 3 solutions. Either you have a vaccine, which we wont likely have for a long time. Solution 2 is that we have some old vaccine or some other treatment that cures the disease which we currently don't. The third option is herd immunity in order to not take such a big hit if a second wave comes and we don't have either solution 1 or 2. So Sweden's strategy is to develop herd immunity among the ones who don't belong to risk groups in order to better be able to protect the risk groups when the next wave comes. If that works and people build up an immunity that will also mean that these people wont spread the virus to the old or other risk groups. So I'd say that the 3 solution is less risky if we don't have solution 1 or 2 by the next wave. Here's an interesting perspective on different strategies:
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/03/how-to-prevent-overwhelming-hospitals-and-build-immunity/
But all in all there are too many unknown factors, and I agree that we should think in a long term perspective.
Post by: Stebro on April 04, 2020, 04:19:13 PM
I certainly hope that the international community looks at trade agreements so we don't see important goods being stuck at airports or being held "hostage" by other countries while not even being used in some cases due to restrictions.
You know, when all of this is over I really hope there's some real accountability for how this all shook down. And I don't mean accountability in the way people sometimes mean it politically as "I don't agree with the PM's politics so I hope this hurts his chances at the next election" because any fault in the Government's response can be equally thrown at the opposition parties who weren't advocating for anything better.
But, like, we're going to need to know why the reaction to this was so bad. Why everything that should have happened in early February happened in mid-late March. I'm not looking to score points here but the people who are supposed to be looking out for us should have been better prepared. Both federally and provincially. And not in a Bill Gates-esque "We know a pandemic is coming sense" but like, we knew it was here in February. All of those chances shouldn't have been taken.
Post by: Stebro on April 04, 2020, 04:21:30 PM
Differing opinions and some confusion on just who is spreading the Coronavirus: “silent spreaders” a.k.a. people who are asymptomatic are at greater risk of spreading the virus. At least that’s what the science is now showing.If it's true that we have a lot of "silent spreaders" I would say that it's actually a good thing in one sense, because that would indicate that more have gone through it already. What worry me a bit is the quality of tests, because I've heard that in some countries people who have tested positive and then been cured have tested positive again a few weeks later.
Did many get it wrong? And why physical distancing has become ever more imperative.Quote“The best evidence around the virus that we have is that the virus is not contagious when people are not symptomatic."
But a growing body of research indicates they were wrong. In fact, people don't have to appear ill at all to infect others.
Jeffrey Shaman, a professor of environmental health sciences at Columbia University in New York, says he is frustrated when people deny that asymptomatic spread can happen.
Shaman and other researchers argue that even two months ago, officials like Tam and Hajdu should have been more open to the possibility of asymptomatic transmission, considering by that point there was a flurry of research being undertaken by scientists racing to understand how the virus was spreading so fast and far. Many of those researchers suspected asymptomatic transmission.
His research found that while undocumented cases — those with mild or no symptoms who did not have a confirmed diagnosis at the time — were only half as infectious as symptomatic ones, they were the source for nearly 80 per cent of documented cases. That's because people who feel fine are the ones out and about, travelling and interacting with more people.
Asked whether it's fair to say these so-called silent spreaders are "super-spreaders," Shaman replied: "Yes."
Dr. Allison McGeer, an infectious disease specialist with Sinai Health System in Toronto, argues while Tam's messaging about asymptomatic spread back in January "might not have been ideal," there's a good chance people would not have been onside with major restrictions to their lives before they could see proof of how serious the problem was. After all, Canada only reported its first case of COVID-19 in late January.
"There is evidence that if officials appear uncertain about things, people lose trust. They get angry. They don't follow guidance. So we put this demand on public health people to have answers when there are no answers. And that's just an impossible situation," she said.
Story:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-silent-spreaders-1.5520006 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-silent-spreaders-1.5520006)
Post by: Nik on April 04, 2020, 07:05:56 PM
When it comes to the article's points about him giving money to businesses, those are also a drop in the bucket. But more importantly, giving to those businesses might be the most effective way to get aid to people in need. For example, the article states that he gave $19 million donation to a Mastercard affiliate in 2014 to “increase usage of digital financial products by poor adults” in Kenya. The article makes no attempt to investigate whether that might be a good thing. It's easy to imagine it is a good thing -- it gives access to cash to poor people to help develop their economy.
I don't know about it giving access to cash to people but I think digital financial products right now are showing why they can be exceptionally important. Despite being under lockdown for almost a month right now I haven't once had to go out to my bank. Everything I've done, buying food for me and my family and paying all of my bills has been done digitally.
Likewise there's the reality of what physical money does to help spread a disease. If the virus can live on plastic for up to 3 days and a lot of physical money is made of plastic, you ideally want people touching money as little as possible, not passing it around from person to person as is likely in poorer countries.
The article is trying to slime him, for what reason, I have no idea (probably clickbait), but the notion that he's somehow trying to make money off by donating to a program that helps get financial products to Kenyans is beyond ludicrous. If Bill Gates wanted to make money, there are plenty of vastly better ways he could do it than that.
I think the article makes some fair points about how we look at large-scale philanthropy and the way it's being used by some people to re-direct scrutiny away from just the extreme inequality our society is producing(which, as that viral Dutch guy in Davos made clear, is resolved through taxes and not charity)
But nobody should be surprised that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are capitalists who think capitalism can solve problems.
Post by: Bender on April 04, 2020, 08:44:55 PM
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-how-sick-will-you-get/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 04, 2020, 11:14:17 PM
Coronavirus: How sick will you get?
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-how-sick-will-you-get/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Excellent article.
There seems to be no way out with this COVID-19 virus. It’s almost as if the virus likes to pick and choose who it will infect.
This stealth virus has all the makings of a cleverly mutated bio engineered product, despite science disputing this claim. Then again, how can we be so certain of that as well?
I have an underlying autoimmune condition for which a I am currently not undertaking any immunosuppressive medications. I still need to be careful though I’m more concerned for my mother who is a senior and what contracting this virus could do to her.
We all need to be on the lookout for our families and our own well being.
Post by: bustaheims on April 05, 2020, 01:00:56 AM
Coronavirus: How sick will you get?
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-how-sick-will-you-get/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Excellent article.
There seems to be no way out with this COVID-19 virus. It’s almost as if the virus likes to pick and choose who it will infect.
This stealth virus has all the makings of a cleverly mutated bio engineered product, despite science disputing this claim. Then again, how can we be so certain of that as well?
I have an underlying autoimmune condition for which a I am currently not undertaking any immunosuppressive medications. I still need to be careful though I’m more concerned for my mother who is a senior and what contracting this virus could do to her.
We all need to be on the lookout for our families and our own well being.
Stop with the baseless conspiracy theories. They don't help anyone.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 05, 2020, 11:01:52 AM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 05, 2020, 11:07:08 AM
There seems to be no way out with this COVID-19 virus. It’s almost as if the virus likes to pick and choose who it will infect.
This stealth virus has all the makings of a cleverly mutated bio engineered product, despite science disputing this claim. Then again, how can we be so certain of that as well?
Stop with the baseless conspiracy theories. They don't help anyone.
My 2nd reminder: anti-vaccine and conspiracy theories regarding COVID-19 have no place here. I'll leave this post up to serve as an example.
These views are garbage even on the best of days but people are DYING here. I don't expect anyone else on these boards to have an issue following this simple directive but I just wanted to repeat it once again.
Post by: Arn on April 05, 2020, 11:17:17 AM
In Northern Ireland specifically so far we don’t seem to have been as badly affected with just 63 deaths and 1089 cases so far (country population is around 1.9m). I wonder if the fact we’re still a bit less densely populated with quite a lot of small rural villages has been part of the reason behind that l.
Post by: Frank E on April 05, 2020, 11:18:26 AM
Also, people that like Brussels sprouts...gone...They're crazy. Those things are gross.
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 12:51:30 PM
There seems to be no way out with this COVID-19 virus. It’s almost as if the virus likes to pick and choose who it will infect.
This stealth virus has all the makings of a cleverly mutated bio engineered product, despite science disputing this claim. Then again, how can we be so certain of that as well?
Stop with the baseless conspiracy theories. They don't help anyone.
My 2nd reminder: anti-vaccine and conspiracy theories regarding COVID-19 have no place here. I'll leave this post up to serve as an example.
These views are garbage even on the best of days but people are DYING here. I don't expect anyone else on these boards to have an issue following this simple directive but I just wanted to repeat it once again.
Why do you get to decide what others think or post? You probably not mind folks using Dr Tam's word yet She is still touting the absolute BS that masks don't work? Let the reader decide their own opinions. This whole pandemic is an example of opinions and facts changing.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 05, 2020, 01:00:40 PM
Why do you get to decide what others think or post?
The fact that I'm a mod/admin on a private message board. Seriously it's flabbergasting that some people don't understand this.
You probably not mind folks using Dr Tam's word yet She is still touting the absolute BS that masks don't work? Let the reader decide their own opinions. This whole pandemic is an example of opinions and facts changing.
If you don't see the difference between the debate on masks which has very legitimate takes on both sides of the conversation and crap like "this is a biological weapon" then you're beyond speaking to on this.
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 01:03:36 PM
Why do you get to decide what others think or post?
The fact that I'm a mod/admin on a private message board. Seriously it's flabbergasting that some people don't understand this.You probably not mind folks using Dr Tam's word yet She is still touting the absolute BS that masks don't work? Let the reader decide their own opinions. This whole pandemic is an example of opinions and facts changing.
If you don't see the difference between the debate on masks which has very legitimate takes on both sides of the conversation and crap like "this is a biological weapon" then you're beyond speaking to on this.
So what? Its an open message board, let people speak and everyone can assign their own value to that speech. It's not the first thing you have tried to sanction. You also tried when folks wrote about alternative medicine.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 05, 2020, 01:26:31 PM
It's not the first thing you have tried to sanction. You also tried when folks wrote about alternative medicine.
And will continue to do so, thanks. If you have a problem with that feel free to find another Toronto Maple Leafs forum that allows that sort of discussion.
Until hydroxychloroquine is proven effective by something like the CDC, WHO, or PHAC it won't be discussed here. Someone has DIED because of misinformation regarding that specific treatment already. I'm sorry for missing the original post about it yesterday.
People, the team lets you discuss pretty much anything you want here regarding the Maple Leafs or hockey in general. I'm taking a hard stance here on COVID-19 and I won't apologize for it.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 05, 2020, 01:29:39 PM
so why don't we allow a thread called "whacky conspiracy theories" and if people want to read about such things they can. The base line is we probably will never know for absolute sure where this thing originated from.
No. Just follow simple rules.
Post by: Frycer14 on April 05, 2020, 01:30:32 PM
I'm taking a hard stance here on COVID-19 and I won't apologize for it.
And it's appreciated. There's really only two culprits, anyway.
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 01:44:35 PM
Someone died by ingesting a fish tank chemical, I thought you wanted to be factual?It's not the first thing you have tried to sanction. You also tried when folks wrote about alternative medicine.
And will continue to do so, thanks. If you have a problem with that feel free to find another Toronto Maple Leafs forum that allows that sort of discussion.
Until hydroxychloroquine is proven effective by something like the CDC, WHO, or PHAC it won't be discussed here. Someone has DIED because of misinformation regarding that specific treatment already. I'm sorry for missing the original post about it yesterday.
People, the team lets you discuss pretty much anything you want here regarding the Maple Leafs or hockey in general. I'm taking a hard stance here on COVID-19 and I won't apologize for it.
Post by: Frycer14 on April 05, 2020, 02:09:36 PM
https://www.un.org/en/un-coronavirus-communications-team/un-tackling-%E2%80%98infodemic%E2%80%99-misinformation-and-cybercrime-covid-19
"“We’re not just fighting an epidemic; we’re fighting an infodemic,” said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, Director-General of the World Health Organization (WHO) at a gathering of foreign policy and security experts in Munich, Germany, in mid- February, referring to fake news that “spreads faster and more easily than this virus.”
WHO explains that infodemics are an excessive amount of information about a problem, which makes it difficult to identify a solution. They can spread misinformation, disinformation and rumours during a health emergency. Infodemics can hamper an effective public health response and create confusion and distrust among people.
In response, a team of WHO “mythbusters” are working with search and media companies like Facebook, Google, Pinterest, Tencent, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube and others to counter the spread of rumours, which include misinformation like that the virus cannot survive in the hot weather, that taking a high dose of chloroquine medication can protect you, and that consuming large quantities of ginger and garlic can prevent the virus.
These companies, according to news reports, are aggressively filtering out unfounded medical advice, hoaxes and other false information that they say could risk public health. In a rare move, Facebook and Twitter have taken down a post from a head of State that falsely stated that a drug was working everywhere against the coronavirus."
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 05, 2020, 02:20:00 PM
I'm taking a hard stance here on COVID-19 and I won't apologize for it.
And it's appreciated. There's really only two culprits, anyway.
Thank you. This is another retort to the idiotic "why do you get to decide what gets posted and not". Besides the obvious answer that I gave I think it's crystal clear that the vast majority of this community is behind me on this one. It's not like I'm banning people from criticizing Nylander here ;)
Post by: Highlander on April 05, 2020, 04:09:01 PM
And I am not propagating conspiracy theories which I personally think of as nonsense.
Nuff said.
Post by: Bender on April 05, 2020, 04:27:48 PM
She hasn't said that fyi. Shockingly there is nuance to the subject.There seems to be no way out with this COVID-19 virus. It’s almost as if the virus likes to pick and choose who it will infect.
This stealth virus has all the makings of a cleverly mutated bio engineered product, despite science disputing this claim. Then again, how can we be so certain of that as well?
Stop with the baseless conspiracy theories. They don't help anyone.
My 2nd reminder: anti-vaccine and conspiracy theories regarding COVID-19 have no place here. I'll leave this post up to serve as an example.
These views are garbage even on the best of days but people are DYING here. I don't expect anyone else on these boards to have an issue following this simple directive but I just wanted to repeat it once again.
Why do you get to decide what others think or post? You probably not mind folks using Dr Tam's word yet She is still touting the absolute BS that masks don't work? Let the reader decide their own opinions. This whole pandemic is an example of opinions and facts changing.
?s=191/7 There is a lot of discussion on use of face masks. It can help to break the discussion into two main considerations regarding the TYPE of mask & the conditions for safe USE of masks in different circumstances/settings. #COVID19
— Dr. Theresa Tam (@CPHO_Canada) April 2, 2020
Post by: Bender on April 05, 2020, 04:49:12 PM
You're being disingenuous with how you're presenting that.Someone died by ingesting a fish tank chemical, I thought you wanted to be factual?It's not the first thing you have tried to sanction. You also tried when folks wrote about alternative medicine.
And will continue to do so, thanks. If you have a problem with that feel free to find another Toronto Maple Leafs forum that allows that sort of discussion.
Until hydroxychloroquine is proven effective by something like the CDC, WHO, or PHAC it won't be discussed here. Someone has DIED because of misinformation regarding that specific treatment already. I'm sorry for missing the original post about it yesterday.
People, the team lets you discuss pretty much anything you want here regarding the Maple Leafs or hockey in general. I'm taking a hard stance here on COVID-19 and I won't apologize for it.
Trump has been advocating the use of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine. He has been very vague as to anything else regarding the treatment, even being cavalier in whether he calls it chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine. It is incumbent on leaders who aren't in medicine to not give medical advice and especially not add in "what have you got to lose?" People are scared and afraid and the people you mentioned who got sick (one who died) saw that chloroquine was on the shelf in their house and they didn't understand the difference between pharmaceutical chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine not meant for human consumption.
If you want we can throw that case out. Maybe you think they're just stupid and it's their own fault they took something non-prescribed. Fine. If people start asking to be prescribed hydroxychloroquine, now without symptoms because Trump keeps touting the treatment publicly and it's sticking to the panicked public's brains, besides the run on the actual medication that's used to treat things like Lupus that these people need, it also reduces its availability to actually treat COVID. At best it is unsolicited, questionable advice, at worst it will cause needless deaths.
If I gave unsolicited advice in my profession, especially advice I wasn't qualified to give or if it was ethically questionable I would be heavily fined or fired.
Secondly this technically isn't a public message board, and moderators are given the ability to moderate discussion for that purpose. Like CtB said, there's plenty of boards to talk about "alternative" medicine. It doesn't have to be here.
Post by: Bender on April 05, 2020, 04:50:52 PM
I'm sure I speak for a lot of us in saying that I don't want this board to become a murdoch-esque tabloid.so why don't we allow a thread called "whacky conspiracy theories" and if people want to read about such things they can. The base line is we probably will never know for absolute sure where this thing originated from.
No. Just follow simple rules.
Post by: louisstamos on April 05, 2020, 04:52:28 PM
Because of that research, the University of Saskatchewan was able to develop a prototype vaccine, which actually passed the first step and has moved on to testing on ferrets this week - https://globalnews.ca/news/6762600/coronavirus-saskatoon-vido-covid-19/
We're still a long ways away from the vaccine being made available to the public for consumption, but these are very positive steps.
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 05:23:34 PM
She hasn't said that fyi. Shockingly there is nuance to the subject.There seems to be no way out with this COVID-19 virus. It’s almost as if the virus likes to pick and choose who it will infect.
This stealth virus has all the makings of a cleverly mutated bio engineered product, despite science disputing this claim. Then again, how can we be so certain of that as well?
Stop with the baseless conspiracy theories. They don't help anyone.
My 2nd reminder: anti-vaccine and conspiracy theories regarding COVID-19 have no place here. I'll leave this post up to serve as an example.
These views are garbage even on the best of days but people are DYING here. I don't expect anyone else on these boards to have an issue following this simple directive but I just wanted to repeat it once again.
Why do you get to decide what others think or post? You probably not mind folks using Dr Tam's word yet She is still touting the absolute BS that masks don't work? Let the reader decide their own opinions. This whole pandemic is an example of opinions and facts changing.?s=191/7 There is a lot of discussion on use of face masks. It can help to break the discussion into two main considerations regarding the TYPE of mask & the conditions for safe USE of masks in different circumstances/settings. #COVID19
— Dr. Theresa Tam (@CPHO_Canada) April 2, 2020
On Monday, at a briefing in Ottawa, though, Dr. Theresa Tam, chief public health officer of Canada, said that Canada is not now planning to change its advice, for two reasons. Firstly, because there is a shortage of masks for health workers.
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Secondly, it is not clear that masks actually help prevent infections, and may increase the risk for those wearing them.
“What we worry about is actually the potential negative aspects of wearing a mask, where people are not protecting their eyes, or other aspects of where the virus could enter your body, and that gives you a false sense of confidence,” she said. “But also it increases the touching of your face. If you’ve got a mask around your face sometimes you can’t help it because you’re just touching parts of your face. The other thing is the outside of the mask could be contaminated.”
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 05:24:45 PM
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
Post by: Frycer14 on April 05, 2020, 06:41:13 PM
I want to make it crystal clear, I am not advocating anything to anyone, I mentioned that if I could get said chemical, which won't be named then "I" would get it. Nothing to do with anyone else.
Except that it's irrelevant that you're not advocating it for others. That isn't the line that Carleton clearly set. You were asked to stop, and you're still trying to justify it.
Post by: Frycer14 on April 05, 2020, 06:47:54 PM
That advice is contradicted by the World Health Organization, the government of Canada and federal public health officials like Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam. On its webpage, the WHO says that "if you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected [COVID-19] infection."
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
Most of what I've read regarding the garden variety n95 type masks is pretty consistent - it can have some benefit for reducing the potential for passing the virus on, but isn't considered effective for protection. The higher grade protective masks/shields with eye protection etc are a different story, and I wish there was more of it to go around for the front line health care workers.
Post by: Highlander on April 05, 2020, 08:32:12 PM
I think in a free world and society, as per Bates that we have the ability to say what we feel and what is on our minds, hell I started this thread.I want to make it crystal clear, I am not advocating anything to anyone, I mentioned that if I could get said chemical, which won't be named then "I" would get it. Nothing to do with anyone else.
Except that it's irrelevant that you're not advocating it for others. That isn't the line that Carleton clearly set. You were asked to stop, and you're still trying to justify it.
I am not a health care worker or a Doctor, even though many of my friends are. Some agree with your post on eye protection, one of my best friends is an infectious disease guy, who has urged us to wear the largest glasses we can when we are out. Frycer14 are you a health care worker or Doctor? I would appreciate knowing.
I will not be posting any more information on drugs or other treatments. I trust this helps CTB and you and any other who are offended by my posts.
Post by: Highlander on April 05, 2020, 08:34:39 PM
There is some positive news to report on this front, though - a few weeks ago, Sunnybrook Hospital - in conjunction with the University of Toronto and MacMaster University, were able to isolate the virus, which allows for more accurate testing and being able to grow the virus in a lab - https://sunnybrook.ca/research/media/item.asp?c=2&i=2069&f=covid-19-isolated-2020&fbclid=IwAR3ZESLvk0ENqqRR4EsPEQlWmWefwvHf9X_J8OZ1QGyhBtMgU-vXAyP-0aMLouis, you are not allowed to post this, as per the thought police.
Because of that research, the University of Saskatchewan was able to develop a prototype vaccine, which actually passed the first step and has moved on to testing on ferrets this week - https://globalnews.ca/news/6762600/coronavirus-saskatoon-vido-covid-19/
We're still a long ways away from the vaccine being made available to the public for consumption, but these are very positive steps.
Post by: L K on April 05, 2020, 09:17:27 PM
There is some positive news to report on this front, though - a few weeks ago, Sunnybrook Hospital - in conjunction with the University of Toronto and MacMaster University, were able to isolate the virus, which allows for more accurate testing and being able to grow the virus in a lab - https://sunnybrook.ca/research/media/item.asp?c=2&i=2069&f=covid-19-isolated-2020&fbclid=IwAR3ZESLvk0ENqqRR4EsPEQlWmWefwvHf9X_J8OZ1QGyhBtMgU-vXAyP-0aMLouis, you are not allowed to post this, as per the thought police.
Because of that research, the University of Saskatchewan was able to develop a prototype vaccine, which actually passed the first step and has moved on to testing on ferrets this week - https://globalnews.ca/news/6762600/coronavirus-saskatoon-vido-covid-19/
We're still a long ways away from the vaccine being made available to the public for consumption, but these are very positive steps.
Pat yourself on the back for this. Stop being a jackass.
Post by: Bender on April 05, 2020, 09:53:08 PM
This is backed by science by reputable hospitals. You must know that this is different than saying something based on 0 scientific or credible evidence.There is some positive news to report on this front, though - a few weeks ago, Sunnybrook Hospital - in conjunction with the University of Toronto and MacMaster University, were able to isolate the virus, which allows for more accurate testing and being able to grow the virus in a lab - https://sunnybrook.ca/research/media/item.asp?c=2&i=2069&f=covid-19-isolated-2020&fbclid=IwAR3ZESLvk0ENqqRR4EsPEQlWmWefwvHf9X_J8OZ1QGyhBtMgU-vXAyP-0aMLouis, you are not allowed to post this, as per the thought police.
Because of that research, the University of Saskatchewan was able to develop a prototype vaccine, which actually passed the first step and has moved on to testing on ferrets this week - https://globalnews.ca/news/6762600/coronavirus-saskatoon-vido-covid-19/
We're still a long ways away from the vaccine being made available to the public for consumption, but these are very positive steps.
Post by: Bender on April 05, 2020, 10:04:57 PM
That advice is contradicted by the World Health Organization, the government of Canada and federal public health officials like Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam. On its webpage, the WHO says that "if you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected [COVID-19] infection."My rebuttal is to your part saying she is still spouting mask bs etc. and I think that tweet did it's job in refuting that argument. What was said a week ago is outdated.
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 10:31:06 PM
That advice is contradicted by the World Health Organization, the government of Canada and federal public health officials like Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam. On its webpage, the WHO says that "if you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected [COVID-19] infection."My rebuttal is to your part saying she is still spouting mask bs etc. and I think that tweet did it's job in refuting that argument. What was said a week ago is outdated.
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
So if the study Canada is currently part of for the not to mentioned treatment gets proven to work we can then mention it?? But not while they are testing it, just once the results are in?? Gotcha
Post by: Bender on April 05, 2020, 11:24:24 PM
I have no idea what you're trying to convey here. The previous parts of the thread talking about hydroxychloroquine isn't here so I don't really know what they said. Are you referring to a study on masks or something? I think debating whether a drug works or not is pretty ridiculous for this type of site and is something best left to scientists and health care professionals. Wearing a mask is a different debate because you aren't ingesting a chemical without any trials and has more nuance to it than you're leading on. I'm not going to get mad at people who wear masks but I am going to be annoyed at people who think a cotton mask is the same as a surgical mask/N95 or use it as a pretext to keep going out or that it's some kind of pancea that has 0 trade offs in terms of risk. But again, that's a much different discussion.That advice is contradicted by the World Health Organization, the government of Canada and federal public health officials like Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam. On its webpage, the WHO says that "if you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected [COVID-19] infection."My rebuttal is to your part saying she is still spouting mask bs etc. and I think that tweet did it's job in refuting that argument. What was said a week ago is outdated.
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
So if the study Canada is currently part of for the not to mentioned treatment gets proven to work we can then mention it?? But not while they are testing it, just once the results are in?? Gotcha
I think my position is pretty clear and I don't really have anymore time or energy dealing with disingenuous posts or baiting or whatever it is you're trying to do. If you want to get into more detail on a platform with basically no guidelines get on twitter or something.
Post by: Bates on April 05, 2020, 11:43:09 PM
I have no idea what you're trying to convey here. The previous parts of the thread talking about hydroxychloroquine isn't here so I don't really know what they said. Are you referring to a study on masks or something? I think debating whether a drug works or not is pretty ridiculous for this type of site and is something best left to scientists and health care professionals. Wearing a mask is a different debate because you aren't ingesting a chemical without any trials and has more nuance to it than you're leading on. I'm not going to get mad at people who wear masks but I am going to be annoyed at people who think a cotton mask is the same as a surgical mask/N95 or use it as a pretext to keep going out or that it's some kind of pancea that has 0 trade offs in terms of risk. But again, that's a much different discussion.That advice is contradicted by the World Health Organization, the government of Canada and federal public health officials like Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam. On its webpage, the WHO says that "if you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected [COVID-19] infection."My rebuttal is to your part saying she is still spouting mask bs etc. and I think that tweet did it's job in refuting that argument. What was said a week ago is outdated.
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
So if the study Canada is currently part of for the not to mentioned treatment gets proven to work we can then mention it?? But not while they are testing it, just once the results are in?? Gotcha
I think my position is pretty clear and I don't really have anymore time or energy dealing with disingenuous posts or baiting or whatever it is you're trying to do. If you want to get into more detail on a platform with basically no guidelines get on twitter or something.
Nothing disingenuous about it. I simply questioned why the need to censor posters just because you don't agree with their posts. I was told the only acceptable posts are those approved by Health Canada or WHO or similar. I don't think they have been exactly factual on this crisis as the mask writings proved. And the treatment we could not discuss is now actual in study by Canada?? But the point of my post was to allow open discussion not echo chamber like this place has been shifting towards.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/malaria-drug-being-studied-on-the-list-of-possible-covid-19-treatments-tam-1.4883377
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2020, 02:37:47 AM
Right now they're looking at dozens of drugs to see if they work. Nothing anyone has said amounts to "You can't say a certain drug is being studied" but rather "With all of the confusion and fear and uncertainty out there, this board shouldn't be used to propagate potentially dangerous information, such as a drug that is still being studied and that has consequences for being used incorrectly has been proven effective" or, say, that this looks like a biological weapon when there's no evidence whatsoever for that and Asian people are increasingly becoming the target of harrassment because of people who believe it.
This board has always had rules, made by admins and enforced by mods and contrary to what people think they've always governed content as well as just decorum. We aren't supposed to gossip about player's personal lives, for instance. I once got told I wasn't allowed to make fun of a certain way a hockey personality spoke. Those rules were here before anyone started posting, they existed while we were posting and if any of us decides we don't want to follow them then they'll be here when we're gone.
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2020, 02:42:08 AM
And if anyone is curious:
https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=317.0 (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=317.0)
Quote
2. The site staff have the exclusive right and discretion to delete any posts they deem to be in contravention to these rules and guidelines, and subsequently ban repeat offenders, if necessary.
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2020, 02:57:34 AM
The virus, as of now, is responsible for almost 70,000 reported deaths. That number is going to rise dramatically in the weeks and months ahead. Men, women and children are going to die. Travelling is one of the major causes of its spread. In an effort to save lives and protect the people risking themselves to treat us, the government has taken steps that will see thousands of people lose their jobs. This is not "overhyped".
Putting bad information out there right now isn't just a matter of differing opinion or the free exchange of ideas. It is genuinely dangerous for us all. Our grandparents knew what that was like. They lived during a war, a period where people didn't get to do whatever they wanted all the time and were seen as real pieces of dirt if they weren't contributing to the effort. If people can't pull together for common good now because they might even have to follow the simplest and most basic rules on a private web forum...then god bless you, I hope you and your family stay healthy but I hope you never post here again.
Post by: bustaheims on April 06, 2020, 08:26:37 AM
I want to make it crystal clear, I am not advocating anything to anyone, I mentioned that if I could get said chemical, which won't be named then "I" would get it. Nothing to do with anyone else.
And I am not propagating conspiracy theories which I personally think of as nonsense.
Nuff said.
So, here's the problems with that position:
a) Whether or not the drug in question is an effective treatment for COVID-19 is still up in the air. There's some anecdotal evidence, but no clinical trials. It also has some significant and potentially dangerous side effects. You could very well be doing more harm to yourself. It should never be taken without being prescribed by a licensed medical doctor.
b) The drug is question is being viewed as a potential treatment. There is zero evidence from anyone qualified to test for these things that it is at all effective in helping you to prevent getting infected. If you take it without being sick, you're not doing anything to actually protect yourself from the virus.
c) Getting your hands on said drug when you don't need it is selfish. There are a number of people who rely on it to help treat serious medical conditions, like lupus. Also, if it is proven to be an effective treatment for COVID-19, and you're holding on to it when you're not sick, you're preventing it from getting to someone who actually needs it. Getting the drug when you're not sick and don't need it could directly contribute to someone else's death.
DO NOT try to get your hands on medication you don't need. All it does it put yourself and others in danger.
Post by: Highlander on April 06, 2020, 11:02:04 AM
Agreed, your right, I am not making any effort to obtain said chemical even though I do have underlying conditions. I am not commenting further on this, I am keeping it to hockey which I seem to remember is a game played on ice.I want to make it crystal clear, I am not advocating anything to anyone, I mentioned that if I could get said chemical, which won't be named then "I" would get it. Nothing to do with anyone else.
And I am not propagating conspiracy theories which I personally think of as nonsense.
Nuff said.
So, here's the problems with that position:
a) Whether or not the drug in question is an effective treatment for COVID-19 is still up in the air. There's some anecdotal evidence, but no clinical trials. It also has some significant and potentially dangerous side effects. You could very well be doing more harm to yourself. It should never be taken without being prescribed by a licensed medical doctor.
b) The drug is question is being viewed as a potential treatment. There is zero evidence from anyone qualified to test for these things that it is at all effective in helping you to prevent getting infected. If you take it without being sick, you're not doing anything to actually protect yourself from the virus.
c) Getting your hands on said drug when you don't need it is selfish. There are a number of people who rely on it to help treat serious medical conditions, like lupus. Also, if it is proven to be an effective treatment for COVID-19, and you're holding on to it when you're not sick, you're preventing it from getting to someone who actually needs it. Getting the drug when you're not sick and don't need it could directly contribute to someone else's death.
DO NOT try to get your hands on medication you don't need. All it does it put yourself and others in danger.
Post by: Bender on April 06, 2020, 11:38:54 AM
I have no idea what you're trying to convey here. The previous parts of the thread talking about hydroxychloroquine isn't here so I don't really know what they said. Are you referring to a study on masks or something? I think debating whether a drug works or not is pretty ridiculous for this type of site and is something best left to scientists and health care professionals. Wearing a mask is a different debate because you aren't ingesting a chemical without any trials and has more nuance to it than you're leading on. I'm not going to get mad at people who wear masks but I am going to be annoyed at people who think a cotton mask is the same as a surgical mask/N95 or use it as a pretext to keep going out or that it's some kind of pancea that has 0 trade offs in terms of risk. But again, that's a much different discussion.That advice is contradicted by the World Health Organization, the government of Canada and federal public health officials like Chief Public Health Officer Dr. Theresa Tam. On its webpage, the WHO says that "if you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected [COVID-19] infection."My rebuttal is to your part saying she is still spouting mask bs etc. and I think that tweet did it's job in refuting that argument. What was said a week ago is outdated.
"Putting a mask on an asymptomatic person is not beneficial, obviously, if you're not infected," Tam said Monday.
So if the study Canada is currently part of for the not to mentioned treatment gets proven to work we can then mention it?? But not while they are testing it, just once the results are in?? Gotcha
I think my position is pretty clear and I don't really have anymore time or energy dealing with disingenuous posts or baiting or whatever it is you're trying to do. If you want to get into more detail on a platform with basically no guidelines get on twitter or something.
Nothing disingenuous about it. I simply questioned why the need to censor posters just because you don't agree with their posts. I was told the only acceptable posts are those approved by Health Canada or WHO or similar. I don't think they have been exactly factual on this crisis as the mask writings proved. And the treatment we could not discuss is now actual in study by Canada?? But the point of my post was to allow open discussion not echo chamber like this place has been shifting towards.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/malaria-drug-being-studied-on-the-list-of-possible-covid-19-treatments-tam-1.4883377
So this will likely be the last time I engage you in this.
1) Let me define echo chamber: an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered.
Everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions but not their own facts, especially not in the current situation. To provide an anecdote, in university I had to cite my sources when writing papers and if they weren't good/credible sources then I would be failed. At minimum, for something affecting our society in such a total level, this should be our minimum standard. Saying COVID19 is a biological weapon is baseless and not factual and serves no one and nothing except for, as Tom Cochrane once said, the lunatic fringe and at worst is actually dangerous. I think we ought to defer to science on this one and science has generally stated at this time that it has the markings of a zoonotic virus. If new info from credible sources scientists will adjust because, well, that's what scientists do. If someone wants to discuss that elsewhere, cool. But it doesn't have to be here and that doesn't make it an echo chamber - we've clearly been presenting articles by generally reputable sources and some of what's there ebbs and flows. Using hydroxychloroquine as an example - it might work as a treatment, it might not. We don't know, and most medical experts are on the same page there. To say anything otherwise is baseless and serves no purpose here. It's better to take the Socratic road here and say you don't know than otherwise until further studies and data are published, and anyone touting otherwise without evidence, especially those who haven't been involved in treating patients, doing studies and the like, is full of it and therefore it doesn't warrant discussion here. There's a huge difference between having guidelines and standards of discussion and being an echo chamber (the now borderline cliche term is being floated around so frequently lately it's starting to resemble an echo chamber. The irony!)
2)
Quote
I was told the only acceptable posts are those approved by Health Canada or WHO or similar.If there is new information by credible epidemiologists who are critical of Health Canada/PHO/WHO response that's fine. I don't think the WHO has done a very good job at this, but that's a different story than "let's discuss the merits of hydroxychloroquine." The type of conversation is different and I'm sure you can understand that difference. You can be critical of Health Canada/Dr. Tam in terms of masks but, again, I literally just posted a nuanced twitter post by her regarding masks. We are allowed to discuss the merits of this, but you have to take in new information into account. You said she still is touting BS on masks and I think the twitter post rebutts that, so I don't understand why you aren't incorporating this new information and moving on. You didn't like her stance before, she clarified and provided a nuanced view on that stance and you're still acting like she didn't provide that. If you want to ignore that entirely then that's fine by me, but why would anyone discuss this any further if you're clinging to beliefs that don't change with new information? Doubling down on ignoring anything that refutes your opinion....hmm...that reminds me of a term we used earlier....
3) One of my favourite epidemiologists right now is Dr. David Fisman of the University of Toronto. He's been highly critical of Dr. Donnelly and PHO for the rollout of testing in Ontario. I like that there is someone out there trying to hold them accountable. I think there is room for criticism but there is a certain procedure and decorum in criticism and different viewpoints and the subject actually matters. Like I said, if I give advice in my field that I'm not qualified to give then I'm basically fired. If that's good enough to get me fired then I really don't think that advice should also be dispensed here. My rationale carries over to medical advice, especially when it's unsolicited, from someone who isn't a medical professional and in regards to something the world knows very little about.
Post by: Bullfrog on April 06, 2020, 01:29:30 PM
I just want to go to the Circle K and buy an f'ing chocolate bar. I know it's still allowed, but I'm obviously avoiding frivolous trips like that.
Post by: bustaheims on April 06, 2020, 01:31:51 PM
So how's everyone doing? I'm starting to go a bit stir crazy and starting to feel the effects of social distancing.
I just want to go to the Circle K and buy an f'ing chocolate bar. I know it's still allowed, but I'm obviously avoiding frivolous trips like that.
I'm doing alright, other than not sleeping super well - or, as I should probably say, even less well than my usual not sleeping well. My fiancee, on the other hand, is not doing well.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on April 06, 2020, 01:39:09 PM
So how's everyone doing? I'm starting to go a bit stir crazy and starting to feel the effects of social distancing.
I just want to go to the Circle K and buy an f'ing chocolate bar. I know it's still allowed, but I'm obviously avoiding frivolous trips like that.
You have lots of company in the stir crazy department.
Post by: louisstamos on April 06, 2020, 01:39:34 PM
On the plus side, I feel like I'm far more productive working from home than I was going to the office. I guess my cat makes a good assistant?
Post by: Frycer14 on April 06, 2020, 01:46:27 PM
3) One of my favourite epidemiologists right now is Dr. David Fisman of the University of Toronto.
I've got his rookie card!
;)
Post by: Frank E on April 06, 2020, 02:00:27 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 06, 2020, 02:04:42 PM
Beer helps.
I went about 4 days without beer last week because I ran out and didn't want to go out until my next grocery store trip. Those were rough days.
Post by: louisstamos on April 06, 2020, 02:07:56 PM
Beer helps.
I do feel like a beer would help take some stress off, but I'm recovering from a concussion (a headshot in a non-contact hockey league, go figure ???) and the doc has advised not to.
Post by: bustaheims on April 06, 2020, 02:15:29 PM
My sleep has not been great either, and the anxiety is doing some awful things to my stomach, but other than that, I'm hanging in there. My partner doesn't live with me yet, and she's immunocompromised as well, so we're keeping physical distance from each other, but it's hard and is really starting to take a toll on our relationship.
On the plus side, I feel like I'm far more productive working from home than I was going to the office. I guess my cat makes a good assistant?
Must be nice. Ours does not.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 06, 2020, 02:19:31 PM
Thankfully my work has somehow been deemed "essential" through both rounds of the list and things have been somewhat normal (albeit quieter) here. And I'm able to have measures that keep me and the handful of people I might need to interact with safe while doing my job.
I still feel like things aren't really close to getting better, and that even once they do the repercussions of this will last a very long time and that stresses me out. And of course I miss hanging out with my friends in-person and playing sports and such. But it is what it is.
I also have two very young nephews from one sister, and my other sister literally just gave birth to her first child a couple days ago and I hate that I can't see them. That's actually probably been the worst part for me.
Post by: Highlander on April 06, 2020, 02:58:46 PM
Post by: Highlander on April 06, 2020, 04:16:09 PM
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 06, 2020, 04:23:28 PM
Beer helps.
I went about 4 days without beer last week because I ran out and didn't want to go out until my next grocery store trip. Those were rough days.
Apparently, Amsterdam Brewery has free delivery available online.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 06, 2020, 05:04:22 PM
It's been a little stressful as I just started this job in November and we are a start up business. Our parent company is keeping us a float right now and I'm hoping that lasts. Who knows though. Thankfully my wife is a principal of a local high school and is fairly secure in her job.
Other than that, I do my best to stay away from the negative news. I try to check in most mornings on the news and then again after dinner. Other than that, I do my best to stay away. It's the only way I can stay sane. That, and beer. But we all seem to have that same vice. Am I the only one that has found themselves considering one at 9am on a Monday?
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on April 06, 2020, 05:12:26 PM
So how's everyone doing? I'm starting to go a bit stir crazy and starting to feel the effects of social distancing.
I just want to go to the Circle K and buy an f'ing chocolate bar. I know it's still allowed, but I'm obviously avoiding frivolous trips like that.
:( I work in a grocery store, so no holing up at home for me. Instead, I get to have people cough at me, stand way too close, question constantly about why they have to wait in (a long) line now for a cashier and cannot pay with their filthy cash, cannot buy lottery tickets that they have to choose with their filthy hands, cannot return their filthy empties like I'm the one who made the rules. If one more person whines at me about not being able to buy ten packages of toilet paper or six cases of bottled water, they might find themselves hanging from our flagpole. There's lines on the floor to help people follow the social distancing rules and still they don't. They ask if <whatever the shelf is empty of> is in the back room. No, it's not. If it's here, it's out here. Yes, we have our institutional hand sanitiser and paper towels for the cashiers (and other staff) to use to keep the place clean and themselves safe, and NO, it is not for sale. Even worse, people try to steal it. We have to keep it out of sight.
There's actually more than one pandemic happening right now. One is the corona virus. The other is the sheer stupidity that I see, not only at my place of employment but daily on the news, people are shown gathering when they're not supposed to; going to places like parks and rec centers that are closed.
I wish I could stay home!
Post by: Frank E on April 06, 2020, 07:03:36 PM
Beer helps.
I went about 4 days without beer last week because I ran out and didn't want to go out until my next grocery store trip. Those were rough days.
Apparently, Amsterdam Brewery has free delivery available online.
We are GHA. But, I will order immediately if they deliver. Carlton X 2.
Post by: Highlander on April 06, 2020, 07:14:02 PM
A friend of mine has been hit in the head twice at Leaf games and suffered damage both times. The last one was a Chara slapshot that damaged his right frontal lobe.Beer helps.
I do feel like a beer would help take some stress off, but I'm recovering from a concussion (a headshot in a non-contact hockey league, go figure ???) and the doc has advised not to.
Post by: Highlander on April 06, 2020, 07:14:57 PM
We're holding up okay here. Our work was also deemed "essential" but I convinced the boss that I can do just as much from home as I can from the office so I've been working from home for 2 weeks now.Beer is not just a breakfast drink anymore Old Time Hockey.
It's been a little stressful as I just started this job in November and we are a start up business. Our parent company is keeping us a float right now and I'm hoping that lasts. Who knows though. Thankfully my wife is a principal of a local high school and is fairly secure in her job.
Other than that, I do my best to stay away from the negative news. I try to check in most mornings on the news and then again after dinner. Other than that, I do my best to stay away. It's the only way I can stay sane. That, and beer. But we all seem to have that same vice. Am I the only one that has found themselves considering one at 9am on a Monday?
Post by: Arn on April 07, 2020, 03:52:11 AM
So how's everyone doing? I'm starting to go a bit stir crazy and starting to feel the effects of social distancing.
I just want to go to the Circle K and buy an f'ing chocolate bar. I know it's still allowed, but I'm obviously avoiding frivolous trips like that.
A couple of days ago I had what felt like a bit of a temperature. Then the next day I coughed a couple of times. I was absolutely terrified. Thankfully so far (touch wood) it hasn't amounted to anything.
My work shut down, but has been allowing us to work from home. This is week 3 now of that. We have a call today to discuss "furloughing" staff - basically the government has promised to cover 80% of small businesses' salaries for 3 months if they are unable to work. The company will likely make up the rest of that so anyone on the scheme will still get 100% salary. The idea of getting paid 100% to do 0% may seem inviting but I think I'd go stir crazy. It also would make you feel vulnerable if you were able to do nothing for X amount of time. Why bring you back when this is over? Maybe they don't need you...
In the ~3 weeks I've been out to the shop 3 time I think. Shopping is strange. Limits on how many people there are in the shop. Queuing outside. Empty shelves like I last remember seeing in Soviet Russia on TV.
I also live in quite a small village where a lot of people know one another. We tend to go out for a family walk each day around lunchtime just to get some daylight and so on. It's a bit weird pushing the pram along and people stepping out onto the road to avoid you. Conversely a lot more are making eye contact and saying hello now. It's spookily quiet in general though, the roads especially.
One benefit of it all is getting to spend so much more time with my 18 month old. I've been trying to teach him to whistle the last few days. He's got the idea but not quite mastered it yet, but it's hilarious to watch
Post by: Bill_Berg on April 07, 2020, 07:46:42 AM
Post by: Arn on April 07, 2020, 09:09:00 AM
And miss going to the gym, but it's going to be warm enough to run outside soon.
I actually built a pretty well equipped home gym so it's worked out quite well. The gym I'm a member of has been continuing to send out workouts for people to do (and also loaned a certain level of equipment to members as required) so I've made sure that every day at 4pm I "go to the gym". It's nice to have that to focus on and give some kinda normality.
They've also done a few live group classes by Zoom to try and keep the community aspect going though I haven't done any of those yet
Post by: herman on April 07, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
10 weeks ago, my wife and I welcomed our first baby girl amidst the early rumblings of Covid-19. It was a bit stressful at first but we were largely isolated as a matter of course for the first two months since it was the middle of flu-season and vaccinations don't come in until then. As I was about to come off parental leave (good gravy, Ontario gives up to 8 wks for non-mothers), the pandemic crisis response elevated and my work has the luxury of getting most of its people off-site and working from home. So the transition back to work (and back to inane forum posting) has been relatively seamless and I get more time helping out with the kidlet. AAAAND we had a built-in excuse for turning down visits from people we were too tired to deal with :)
I hope people (and governments) come to appreciate all the front-line folk more after this (hopefully) passes: nurses, docs, EMTs, grocery store staff, food services, teachers, sanitation workers
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 07, 2020, 10:41:08 AM
10 weeks ago, my wife and I welcomed our first baby girl amidst the early rumblings of Covid-19.
Congrats man.
If you've mentioned this before and I've already congratulated you then I rescind this one.
Post by: herman on April 07, 2020, 10:57:11 AM
Congrats man.
If you've mentioned this before and I've already congratulated you then I rescind this one.
Haha, thanks. No rescission required.
Post by: Frank E on April 07, 2020, 11:13:38 AM
Post by: bustaheims on April 07, 2020, 11:28:19 AM
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/07/trump-holds-financial-interest-in-pharmaceutical-company-that-produces-hydroxychloroquine-nyt_partner/?fbclid=IwAR3hel0NGtOHnxa0IevXo60HObO-9K_V6zbqg_yM0LHMfgpmLtDyCiClpEQ
Post by: Peter D. on April 07, 2020, 11:44:02 AM
Does it suck that we can't go to the park and it aches me I haven't played hockey twice a week and seeing the guys? Sure does. But to be able to halt life for a bit and actually make it seem like time goes by slowly, it's a nice change of pace.
I'm not overly anxious about the virus itself. My wife is because she is concerned about the kids' safety and hers (she has an underlying heart valve issue). I think it is tense times in general being kooked up in the house all the time. What gets me anxious and jittery is grocery shopping. Seeing people acting super strange and wearing masks/gloves -- it spooks me out.
Post by: TML fan on April 07, 2020, 12:23:15 PM
I actually look at work as a source of relief, but also a source of anxiety because of how exposed I am.
Post by: Highlander on April 07, 2020, 12:49:39 PM
I've been working from home for ten years already, little has changed for me in many areas. Three kids at home is driving my wife nuts though. And miss going to the gym, but it's going to be warm enough to run outside soon.They just outlawed outside exercise in France, no running there. Although you may be able to set up a Marathon course in your backyard.
Post by: Highlander on April 07, 2020, 01:00:11 PM
Arn, I do commiserate, every time I think I have a headache coming on or cough your mind starts racing. Funny thing when I was down south before the advent of the wave, I developed a sore throat which is only going away now (been home since March 15). 10 days ago I was shaking in the night and my wife took my temperature and it was 103F, then we found out two days later the thermometer was not working correctly. Whew. I tell you that you can work into symptomatic feelings even though nothing is wrong with you. It's easy to get freaked out.
I think what is affecting me is Boris Johnson is only 55 and he has taken a turn for the worse and I am 63 but not quite as overweight as him.
New book is coming out, its called "2020" written by Stephen King, directed by Quentin Tarantino.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 07, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
They just outlawed outside exercise in France, no running there. Although you may be able to set up a Marathon course in your backyard.
Just for the record, I believe this applies to the city of Paris only. And it's a ban during the day:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52202700
Elsewhere in France you're allowed to job/exercise but only within 1km of your home. That's been in place for a little while now.
Post by: herman on April 07, 2020, 01:29:07 PM
Congrats herman...get out your wallet, they're expensive.
Herman, I didn't know about the recent fatherhood, congratulations, as Frank says get out that wallet. My guy is 27 now and still costing me. LOL
Thanks, guys (and for the heads up)! She's the first grandkid for both our families so she's gonna be spoiled rotten unless we can instill the virtues of asceticism early on.
Post by: Peter D. on April 07, 2020, 01:30:28 PM
Post by: Highlander on April 07, 2020, 01:54:01 PM
Thanks CTB, I have to stop repeating what my wife is telling me. Vive la France!!They just outlawed outside exercise in France, no running there. Although you may be able to set up a Marathon course in your backyard.
Just for the record, I believe this applies to the city of Paris only. And it's a ban during the day:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52202700
Elsewhere in France you're allowed to job/exercise but only within 1km of your home. That's been in place for a little while now.
Post by: Highlander on April 07, 2020, 01:56:30 PM
You have that right Herman, if I could do it all over again, I would learn to say "No" a lot more instead of giving in and saying "Yes" to avoid the inevitable tantrums. No is a great word for kids to learn. Anyway that horse left the barn by about year 3.Congrats herman...get out your wallet, they're expensive.Herman, I didn't know about the recent fatherhood, congratulations, as Frank says get out that wallet. My guy is 27 now and still costing me. LOL
Thanks, guys (and for the heads up)! She's the first grandkid for both our families so she's gonna be spoiled rotten unless we can instill the virtues of asceticism early on.
Post by: Highlander on April 07, 2020, 02:01:17 PM
Social/physical distancing is now going to become a regular term in our vocabulary going forward, isn't it? ::)I really hope that the "handshake" goes the way of the Dodo. I always respected Japanese culture with the little bow of respect. When you think of where a hand goes in the course of a day, scary stuff.. I have to say I have learned how not to touch my face etc. Have a makeshift mask and wear gloves slathered up with the mixture when out.
Post by: Peter D. on April 07, 2020, 02:04:24 PM
I really hope that the "handshake" goes the way of the Dodo. I always respected Japanese culture with the little bow of respect. When you think of where a hand goes in the course of a day, scary stuff.. I have to say I have learned how not to touch my face etc. Have a makeshift mask and wear gloves slathered up with the mixture when out.
I've seen a lot of people say this. Quite baffled by it. Not me...if handshakes go, I think life as we/I know it is changed forever.
Post by: Bender on April 07, 2020, 02:54:50 PM
I really hope that the "handshake" goes the way of the Dodo. I always respected Japanese culture with the little bow of respect. When you think of where a hand goes in the course of a day, scary stuff.. I have to say I have learned how not to touch my face etc. Have a makeshift mask and wear gloves slathered up with the mixture when out.
I've seen a lot of people say this. Quite baffled by it. Not me...if handshakes go, I think life as we/I know it is changed forever.
My half-wop blood won't allow me to never hug people again. Virus be damned (assuming we're all vaccinated!)
Post by: Highlander on April 07, 2020, 04:01:15 PM
I wonder when they have this test if you will get some sort of identification, so others do not have to be afraid of you.
Post by: Nik on April 08, 2020, 08:43:11 AM
I hope people (and governments) come to appreciate all the front-line folk more after this (hopefully) passes: nurses, docs, EMTs, grocery store staff, food services, teachers, sanitation workers
I said something similar earlier and I agree. We're seeing now the value of these people every day and stretches far beyond what a free market system pegs for them. The economy is taking a nose dive because the average work of undervalued people is being disrupted, not because enough money hasn't been diverted to the already wealthy.
The last 30 years have seen massive amounts of gains in terms of worker productivity in this country but almost all of the benefits have been going to capital interests and not labour. I just don't think that's sustainable for a society that may, in the future, require people to risk their health to work at jobs that don't pay them a living wage.
Also, congrats on the kid.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 08, 2020, 09:30:28 AM
Apparently, Amsterdam Brewery has free delivery available online.
We are GHA. But, I will order immediately if they deliver. Carlton X 2.
AB doesn't deliver here. Nickel Brook on the other hand...
Post by: herman on April 08, 2020, 09:38:32 AM
I said something similar earlier and I agree. We're seeing now the value of these people every day and stretches far beyond what a free market system pegs for them. The economy is taking a nose dive because the average work of undervalued people is being disrupted, not because enough money hasn't been diverted to the already wealthy.
The last 30 years have seen massive amounts of gains in terms of worker productivity in this country but almost all of the benefits have been going to capital interests and not labour. I just don't think that's sustainable for a society that may, in the future, require people to risk their health to work at jobs that don't pay them a living wage.
Also, congrats on the kid.
Thanks, Nik! People are also finding out just how much stay-at-home parents have to deal with regularly (the hard way).
Spain just announced it was moving towards setting up universal basic income. Imagine if UBI and basic health insurance take care of the first two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for everyone.
Post by: bustaheims on April 08, 2020, 09:58:33 AM
Spain just announced it was moving towards setting up universal basic income. Imagine if UBI and basic health insurance take care of the first two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for everyone.
We're slowly moving towards the dream of the Star Trek utopia.
Also, congrats on the new clone.
Post by: Arn on April 08, 2020, 10:45:04 AM
My company has taken the pretty tough decision to "furlough" about half our staff which means they basically go off on full pay but do no work for 2 months and the UK government pays us 80% of their salary. It basically means my company goes from a now projected loss this year to more or less breaking even. It's obviously good for the staff but at the same time it's possibly awkward for them making them feel undervalued. But if we don't do it there may not be a company for them to go back to when this is all over.
In Northern Ireland we still seem to have been sheltered a little bit. Only 5 more deaths announced today for a total of 78. 84 new cases for a total of 1339 so we don't seem to have been as badly hit as across the Irish Sea. Possibly our more rural, dispersed population has helped us a little there so far
Post by: herman on April 08, 2020, 11:00:24 AM
You're fortunate that Ireland was not a must-see destination in December/January! Most of the countries that have spiked appeared to have been people coming back from that cruise that inexplicably got turned into an incubator when everyone was quarantined on the ship to ensure that everyone became a carrier before they were released and sent home with no further isolation.
Post by: Highlander on April 08, 2020, 11:19:42 AM
"People can exercise within one kilometer of their homes and only for an hour once a day. Cycling is banned, because if someone has an accident, then they will be taxing the health services unnecessarily. I presume this means the groups of cyclists that clog the roads on a weekend and not a cycle to the store".
Post by: Stebro on April 08, 2020, 01:07:17 PM
One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.
Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.
Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.
Post by: Bender on April 08, 2020, 01:32:42 PM
It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.
One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.
Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.
Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.
How is running at 180% sustainable?
Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.
I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.
Post by: Stebro on April 08, 2020, 01:48:05 PM
The capacity is at 180% right now, and still increasing, but it's only running at about 160% right now, and as it goes down which it likely will, Stockholm will be able to help the rest of the country if needed. Well, Sweden's main problem was that it spread in residential homes (25% of Sweden's total deaths have been old people in residential homes in Stockholm alone), a problem which Norway hasn't had, and that's not related to the overall strategy itself, it was related to lack of protective equipment thanks to some countries in EU who refused to let our supplies through, another reason is that Norway tested a lot in residential homes, which we should have been better at. But Sweden will ramp up the testing in an extreme way to about 100.000 tests per week. What's complicated though is that the tests are not always accurate, the issue is say that you are tested at this instance, it may be negative, but in 8 hours you may be positive, because the tests will not be able to spot the virus under a certain level, and then you have to test the same people over and over again. The antibody tests are more accurate, because you can not have developed antibodies if you haven't been sick.It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.
One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.
Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.
Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.
How is running at 180% sustainable?
Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.
I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.
Another thing to consider is that Norway will have to be more worried than Sweden when they start to open things up, because history shows that it can get bad quickly once you do that if you don't have a lot of control and do it in a very slow pace. Currently we have 687 deaths, and 6 of them have been under the age of 50, regardless of they have an underlying condition or not. In the regular flu we usually have 15-40 (it vary a lot) deaths in that group per year.
Post by: Bender on April 08, 2020, 02:29:46 PM
The capacity is at 180% right now, and still increasing, but it's only running at about 160% right now, and as it goes down which it likely will, Stockholm will be able to help the rest of the country if needed. Well, Sweden's main problem was that it spread in residential homes (25% of Sweden's total deaths have been old people in residential homes in Stockholm alone), a problem which Norway hasn't had, and that's not related to the overall strategy itself, it was related to lack of protective equipment thanks to some countries in EU who refused to let our supplies through, another reason is that Norway tested a lot in residential homes, which we should have been better at. But Sweden will ramp up the testing in an extreme way to about 100.000 tests per week. What's complicated though is that the tests are not always accurate, the issue is say that you are tested at this instance, it may be negative, but in 8 hours you may be positive, because the tests will not be able to spot the virus under a certain level, and then you have to test the same people over and over again. The antibody tests are more accurate, because you can not have developed antibodies if you haven't been sick.It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.
One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.
Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.
Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.
How is running at 180% sustainable?
Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.
I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.
Another thing to consider is that Norway will have to be more worried than Sweden when they start to open things up, because history shows that it can get bad quickly once you do that if you don't have a lot of control and do it in a very slow pace. Currently we have 687 deaths, and 6 of them have been under the age of 50, regardless of they have an underlying condition or not. In the regular flu we usually have 15-40 (it vary a lot) deaths in that group per year.
There's a few things I could rebut here, but I only want to point out that maybe that is a difference of philosophy, but criticizing one test over another when they have different functions seems odd to me. The PCR test is to detect COVID, afterward you quarantine, and trace contacts. This is the South Korean model which has basically been the best in the world thus far. There are false negatives for sure - I'm not sure of the rate - but it's our best tool to make sure there aren't people out there, especially in the health care & at risk fields and lthc patients etc. Serology tests are important but will only tell you who has already developed anti-bodies to the disease and therefore who already was sick. Both need to be used in tandem.
Also counting deaths at this point and comparing it to flu season is also strange. I know you probably don't mean it this way but you're almost implying that people under 50 are the people worth saving, who cares about the rest of the numbers?
And I mean, I know this has been trumpeted over and over, but this disease is the old Wayne Gretzky quote - skate to where the puck is going. You're making it sound like just because Sweden has weathered it so far means it bodes well going forward. You don't know if they won't be forced to shut at this point, and even then there was always knowledge knowing if your country is in quarantine you have to walk a tightrope when opening back up.
I hope Sweden has made the right decisions, but I have a hard time squaring the circle when you've got countries like Finland, Norway, Australia, South Korea are all trending better and have proven as better models. I'm not saying Canada is doing a great job, we need to do better also, I just find the posts rub off a bit nationalistic in the sense that Sweden's model truly could not be followed by the vast majority of countries (and to an even greater extent, the Netherlands - good lord).
Post by: Stebro on April 08, 2020, 02:57:55 PM
Sweden did pretty much the same thing everyone else did from the beginning, which was to trace all cases, and test everyone who's been in contact with them and have the self isolate, but once it was starting to spread around all over the country. Everyone who has any type of symptoms have been told to stay at home no questions asked, and the reason why is because everyone knows that there will be false negatives, and it's difficult to have a long term solution where you test the same people over and over again, because you know that at a certain level it will show negative, and hours later it would show positive. So then social distancing becomes very important. There are very few indications that we will have to lock up or shut down schools as it stands now since it's the virus is decreasing where it hit us worst. However the parliament passed a new legislation so that the government can make quick decisions if it is needed.The capacity is at 180% right now, and still increasing, but it's only running at about 160% right now, and as it goes down which it likely will, Stockholm will be able to help the rest of the country if needed. Well, Sweden's main problem was that it spread in residential homes (25% of Sweden's total deaths have been old people in residential homes in Stockholm alone), a problem which Norway hasn't had, and that's not related to the overall strategy itself, it was related to lack of protective equipment thanks to some countries in EU who refused to let our supplies through, another reason is that Norway tested a lot in residential homes, which we should have been better at. But Sweden will ramp up the testing in an extreme way to about 100.000 tests per week. What's complicated though is that the tests are not always accurate, the issue is say that you are tested at this instance, it may be negative, but in 8 hours you may be positive, because the tests will not be able to spot the virus under a certain level, and then you have to test the same people over and over again. The antibody tests are more accurate, because you can not have developed antibodies if you haven't been sick.It seem like the worst is over in Stockholm although we will see a lot more deaths. It also seems that a lot of people in Stockholm have developed antibodies based on preliminary studies. Our authorities claim that our stats of deaths are very accurate, although lagging behind a few days at max. In our stats deaths outside the regular healthcare is also included. On the press conference today our authorities were more calm than they've been in the last couple of weeks.
One positive fact is that we have much fewer deaths than usual in other virus inflicted diseases.
Also it was mentioned yesterday by Trump that we are suffering a lot. I feel sorry for the ones who have lost loved ones, but that statement isn't true and our healthcare although tired and stressed have done a magnificent job. In Stockholm the capacity for ICU patients is currently at 180% of its normal capacity.
Also I have seen a lot of pictures of people in Stockholm sitting in crowded restaurants both in media abroad and in Sweden. However after having been in Stockholm a lot I would say that those are exceptions and not an accurate reflection of the situation here in general.
How is running at 180% sustainable?
Norway currently has better metrics in literally every single statistic than Sweden right now in fighting this. Norway has fewer cases and has done double the tests. The COVID IFR isn't as bad as the CFR, and that's true also in Sweden, but also 68 deaths per million vs 19 per million in Norway. Norway has higher cases per population but are testing the hell out of their population. I mean there are more patients in serious and critical condition in Sweden than Canada.
I understand you want to be positive about Sweden, but the way it's going you're going to have case studies for years concluding that out of the two, Norway made the right decisions vs. Sweden.
Another thing to consider is that Norway will have to be more worried than Sweden when they start to open things up, because history shows that it can get bad quickly once you do that if you don't have a lot of control and do it in a very slow pace. Currently we have 687 deaths, and 6 of them have been under the age of 50, regardless of they have an underlying condition or not. In the regular flu we usually have 15-40 (it vary a lot) deaths in that group per year.
There's a few things I could rebut here, but I only want to point out that maybe that is a difference of philosophy, but criticizing one test over another when they have different functions seems odd to me. The PCR test is to detect COVID, afterward you quarantine, and trace contacts. This is the South Korean model which has basically been the best in the world thus far. There are false negatives for sure - I'm not sure of the rate - but it's our best tool to make sure there aren't people out there, especially in the health care & at risk fields and lthc patients etc. Serology tests are important but will only tell you who has already developed anti-bodies to the disease and therefore who already was sick. Both need to be used in tandem.
Also counting deaths at this point and comparing it to flu season is also strange. I know you probably don't mean it this way but you're almost implying that people under 50 are the people worth saving, who cares about the rest of the numbers?
And I mean, I know this has been trumpeted over and over, but this disease is the old Wayne Gretzky quote - skate to where the puck is going. You're making it sound like just because Sweden has weathered it so far means it bodes well going forward. You don't know if they won't be forced to shut at this point, and even then there was always knowledge knowing if your country is in quarantine you have to walk a tightrope when opening back up.
I hope Sweden has made the right decisions, but I have a hard time squaring the circle when you've got countries like Finland, Norway, Australia, South Korea are all trending better and have proven as better models. I'm not saying Canada is doing a great job, we need to do better also, I just find the posts rub off a bit nationalistic in the sense that Sweden's model truly could not be followed by the vast majority of countries (and to an even greater extent, the Netherlands - good lord).
Well as for Finland etc I would say they all have a higher risk of it flaring up again, and they have the long term risk of what happens if a second wave hits in the autumn or so, and very few are immune, and there's no cure, and no vaccine. Finland is also behind us on the curve. Now I hope that there will be some sort of efficient old virus medicine that will be efficient soon, because I don't want to see anyone get hit hard. It's fine if the posts sounds a bit nationalistic, I support the Swedish strategy for long term reasons, I think it was brave of both our government and experts to not follow everyone else. One of the reasons why i'm talking about the swedish strategy might also be because we are taking a lot of crap abroad which I think it's inaccurate. There were headlines all over Europe, headlines like "The Swedes are turning mad", "The Swedes think they live on a different planet", "The Swedes are committing mass-suicide", "The Swedes are willing to sacrifice everyone", and that was not only in Europe. I also saw an article about how Sweden's strategy could lead to 200.000 deaths, we don't even have 1000 so...and a lot are immune now.
However strategy can also depend on what opportunity you have of being successful, I don't think the strategy that we picked would work in say New York, and so far we have not seen our healthcare being as overloaded as in Italy, Spain etc. People are very worried here, but there's no panic mode right now at least.
I'm not implying that people over 50 are not worth saving, my point was just at least based on the stats here the risk for "young" to die in the corona virus is lower than the regular flu as it stands now, but the numbers will likely increase, and media have been spreading panic about the young people.
Post by: louisstamos on April 08, 2020, 04:05:27 PM
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/92345445_10157088215686592_3641564682784866304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=GTVfFGpDBf8AX-wgds8&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=438d48f6e234aa1a9bad60f06cd5faa3&oe=5EB3B5A0)
Post by: Nik on April 11, 2020, 08:02:36 AM
Spain just announced it was moving towards setting up universal basic income. Imagine if UBI and basic health insurance take care of the first two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for everyone.
Spain hasn't really announced details of their plan and, not to be pedantic about it, it'll be interesting to see if what they do is a UBI in terms of everyone in the country getting a certain amount of money or if it means increasing social welfare so that nobody is destitute. I'm not entirely sold on the former as being especially meaningful(or it's prohibitively expensive if it accomplishes the goals of the latter).
The thing I'd really like to see is some sort of significant increase in social welfare but also a Federal jobs guarantee at a higher minimum wage. If someone is capable of work and willing to do it I think there are a ton of things in the country and community that need doing and deserve a living wage.
Post by: Arn on April 19, 2020, 06:05:22 PM
At least another 3 weeks of “lockdown” ahead for us here. I think it’s been mostly pretty well observed. I feel that after those 3 weeks though people may start agitating for a bit more freedom, particularly if the virus infection and death rates continue to plateau or fall
Post by: Bender on April 19, 2020, 11:44:19 PM
Week 5 of working from home tomorrow for us. Hope everyone is holding up and nobody has been directly impacted by the virus.Been working from home since March 16th, there's limitations in what we can do at home but there's workarounds.
At least another 3 weeks of “lockdown” ahead for us here. I think it’s been mostly pretty well observed. I feel that after those 3 weeks though people may start agitating for a bit more freedom, particularly if the virus infection and death rates continue to plateau or fall
I used to be a huge gamer when I was young and obviously I'd rather be able to go out and enjoy spring but I also eally have no problem riding this baby out working during the day and playing the Final Fantasy VII Remake lol. I really think people need to just ride it out and not get impatient. I feel like we've grown accustomed to instant gratification and some things just can't be rushed. People really should be able to ride out a once in 100yr event that has major health & death implications for another month or two - not rushing it is the only way we don't become Lombardy/NYC.
Just to be clear I'm referring to people who are just "fed up" than people who have to go outside to work etc.
Post by: Arn on April 20, 2020, 05:49:29 AM
Luckily the weather has been decent so we've been able to spend time in the garden and get out for walks round the village pretty much daily which breaks the monotony of being in the house and working from home. I'd guess for those living in apartments etc it's been much tougher.
Post by: Bender on April 21, 2020, 09:56:58 PM
I agree, I'm quite content at the slower pace of life at the minute. Being purely selfish, this virus sounds like a highly unpleasant one so if I'm able to stay home and avoid getting it and the associated risks to my health, or worse, it's a small price worth paying.Yeah I live in an apartment in midtown Toronto. Lots of people around a lot of the time and I don't want to be using the elevator or shared laundry much. Its also been kind of nutty weather so I'm not super keen on doing much outside yet. Cheers to you and yours! Glad you're keeping sane while keeping safe.
Luckily the weather has been decent so we've been able to spend time in the garden and get out for walks round the village pretty much daily which breaks the monotony of being in the house and working from home. I'd guess for those living in apartments etc it's been much tougher.
Post by: Nik on April 22, 2020, 02:19:39 PM
I obviously make no claims regarding what this study may find but there's some thought coming out of France that smoking cigarettes may actually help in the fight against the virus and they're going to test nicotine patches on health care workers:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus)
Post by: bustaheims on April 22, 2020, 02:21:23 PM
I obviously make no claims regarding what this study may find but there's some thought coming out of France that smoking cigarettes may actually help in the fight against the virus and they're going to test nicotine patches on health care workers:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus)
We're really getting into the "leave no stone unturned" phase of things, huh?
Post by: Nik on April 22, 2020, 02:52:51 PM
I obviously make no claims regarding what this study may find but there's some thought coming out of France that smoking cigarettes may actually help in the fight against the virus and they're going to test nicotine patches on health care workers:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/french-study-suggests-smokers-at-lower-risk-of-getting-coronavirus)
We're really getting into the "leave no stone unturned" phase of things, huh?
Yeah, that said the numbers are interesting.
Post by: bustaheims on April 22, 2020, 03:19:03 PM
Yeah, that said the numbers are interesting.
Yup. Would definitely be an unexpected outcome to have a nicotine-based treatment be successful, but, as long as it doesn't cause an uptick in smoking...
Post by: Rob on April 22, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 23, 2020, 07:43:30 AM
Yeah, that said the numbers are interesting.
Yup. Would definitely be an unexpected outcome to have a nicotine-based treatment be successful, but, as long as it doesn't cause an uptick in smoking...
Bought a carton yesterday. They're really disgusting, but because it's for my health I'm powering through!
Post by: herman on April 23, 2020, 10:33:02 AM
Can't infect my lungs if they're clogged with tar!
Post by: Highlander on April 23, 2020, 12:29:01 PM
Post by: Bender on May 03, 2020, 11:51:46 PM
Post by: Bender on May 04, 2020, 12:11:46 AM
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2020/05/01/maple-leafs-great-borje-salming-on-his-fight-with-the-coronavirus-when-you-get-this-you-cant-breathe.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_yo
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 04, 2020, 09:05:11 AM
Borje had it also!
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2020/05/01/maple-leafs-great-borje-salming-on-his-fight-with-the-coronavirus-when-you-get-this-you-cant-breathe.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_yo
Yeah I remember when it was first reported that he was sick it seemed insane that he wasn't actually tested for it. Glad he's feeling better.
Post by: Stebro on May 04, 2020, 02:14:36 PM
Post by: Highlander on May 04, 2020, 04:34:32 PM
He said he couldn't breath and though he would die. He is imploring us all to stay inside and not get the Covid.Borje had it also!
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2020/05/01/maple-leafs-great-borje-salming-on-his-fight-with-the-coronavirus-when-you-get-this-you-cant-breathe.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_yo
Yeah I remember when it was first reported that he was sick it seemed insane that he wasn't actually tested for it. Glad he's feeling better.
Post by: Highlander on May 04, 2020, 05:03:19 PM
I find in interesting how much I've learned about Sweden during these times. We are communists, most swedes wear chip implants, our tax rate is 60-70%. We don't care about the old. Now Fox News is praising a left-centre government in Sweden, while the left in the US is giving us crap. Is this for real?Nothing makes sense in the U.S anymore, even Trump looks like his chip implant is malfunctioning big time. Maybe the return of Kim Jong has blown his mind.
Post by: Frycer14 on May 04, 2020, 09:21:05 PM
Georges Laraque battling right now. https://www.thescore.com/news/1972782
https://www.nhl.com/news/former-nhl-player-georges-laraque-battling-coronavirus/c-316805030
Yeah, I was just reading the NHL.com link.
Anyone that thinks it's only the elderly and immunocompromised that get extremely sick should probably give it a read.
Post by: herman on May 04, 2020, 10:25:43 PM
As #coronavirus cases spike in Russia, doctors say they need PPEs.
— David Beard (@dabeard) May 4, 2020
2 doctors who shed light on the woeful lack of PPEs have been reported killed "falling" out of windows.
A 3rd has life-threatening injuries after he, too, "fell" out of a window.https://t.co/WI6BNMPbRJ #COVID19
Not to make light of a a) global pandemic b) government sanctioned assassination of dissidents, but sticking with defenestration sort of makes this too obvious. Like all the anti-Apartheid leaders that ‘slipped in the shower’ to their untimely deaths.
Post by: Nik on May 06, 2020, 09:55:21 AM
Looks like Germany's Bundesliga will resume playing this month with no fans in the stands:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/german-bundesliga/story/4092272/coronavirus-bundesliga-to-become-europes-first-major-league-to-resume (https://www.espn.com/soccer/german-bundesliga/story/4092272/coronavirus-bundesliga-to-become-europes-first-major-league-to-resume)
Post by: azzurri63 on May 07, 2020, 09:20:49 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 08, 2020, 09:50:17 AM
Hello everyone thought I'd check in see how everyone is doing. Hope no-one has been affected by the virus in anyway. All good out here in BC other than going a little stir crazy. Hopefully some hockey in the not too distant future.
BC seems to be doing a really good job with things.
I feel like I'm just in a waiting period now. Sort of begrudgingly gotten used to physical/social distancing life. Things aren't going back to normal for a very, very long time still but I'm looking forward to when we can start increasing our social bubble a little.
I also really, really need a hair cut.
Post by: Frank E on May 08, 2020, 11:31:07 AM
Hello everyone thought I'd check in see how everyone is doing. Hope no-one has been affected by the virus in anyway. All good out here in BC other than going a little stir crazy. Hopefully some hockey in the not too distant future.
BC seems to be doing a really good job with things.
I feel like I'm just in a waiting period now. Sort of begrudgingly gotten used to physical/social distancing life. Things aren't going back to normal for a very, very long time still but I'm looking forward to when we can start increasing our social bubble a little.
I also really, really need a hair cut.
A friend of mine owns "Architect Hair Design" on James North...good spot, and you can have a beer...of course, when they get to open back up again.
Post by: Rob on May 08, 2020, 11:43:41 AM
Hello everyone thought I'd check in see how everyone is doing. Hope no-one has been affected by the virus in anyway. All good out here in BC other than going a little stir crazy. Hopefully some hockey in the not too distant future.
BC seems to be doing a really good job with things.
I feel like I'm just in a waiting period now. Sort of begrudgingly gotten used to physical/social distancing life. Things aren't going back to normal for a very, very long time still but I'm looking forward to when we can start increasing our social bubble a little.
I also really, really need a hair cut.
Mine was driving me nuts so I got out the clippers and took it down to the bare wood.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 08, 2020, 11:50:30 AM
A friend of mine owns "Architect Hair Design" on James North...good spot, and you can have a beer...of course, when they get to open back up again.
Yeah I've definitely heard of them but never been. A little pricey for my cut which is pretty quick/simple. I might give it a go as a celebratory cut though when it opens.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 08, 2020, 11:51:56 AM
Mine was driving me nuts so I got out the clippers and took it down to the bare wood.
I've thought about it. Not completely off but enough. I'm in hat-mode any time I leave the house because of it so even if it's bad I can just keep that up until a pro can fix it.
Post by: louisstamos on May 08, 2020, 12:51:41 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 08, 2020, 01:00:30 PM
I will say this, though - as someone who is...folically challenged...if I had a full head of hair, I'd be growing it as long as I could right now, like I was in an 80s hair metal band! How many times will you have this opportunity!?!?
My problem is the front/top of my hair and the back/sides of my hair disagree on how much they can grow so it looks pretty ridiculous unless I keep it short.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on May 08, 2020, 01:12:18 PM
I will say this, though - as someone who is...folically challenged...if I had a full head of hair, I'd be growing it as long as I could right now, like I was in an 80s hair metal band! How many times will you have this opportunity!?!?Folically challenged! I like that. It just sounds better than bald. I haven't been to a barber in thirty years. I'm just a folically challenged old guy with a pony tail.
Post by: Highlander on May 08, 2020, 01:29:52 PM
Funny, I go out for a drive in the car and it always takes me to the liquor store. Don't know how that happens ::)
Post by: bustaheims on May 08, 2020, 05:59:45 PM
Post by: herman on May 09, 2020, 09:58:53 AM
My fiancée and I moved a couple days ago, which was a super interesting experience in the middle of a pandemic.
Congrats on the engagement and new home! How are you going to get Internet?
Post by: Bender on May 09, 2020, 01:56:22 PM
I will say this, though - as someone who is...folically challenged...if I had a full head of hair, I'd be growing it as long as I could right now, like I was in an 80s hair metal band! How many times will you have this opportunity!?!?It gets hot under the 'fro, you know? I started looking like a homeless Bob Ross
Post by: bustaheims on May 09, 2020, 04:24:58 PM
My fiancée and I moved a couple days ago, which was a super interesting experience in the middle of a pandemic.
Congrats on the engagement and new home! How are you going to get Internet?
Thanks!
Basically everyone is dropping off the equipment and guiding you through a self install. Already have it up and running.
Post by: Deebo on May 09, 2020, 04:55:49 PM
Mine was driving me nuts so I got out the clippers and took it down to the bare wood.
I've thought about it. Not completely off but enough. I'm in hat-mode any time I leave the house because of it so even if it's bad I can just keep that up until a pro can fix it.
I went down to about 3mm all over. It felt great.
what didn't feel great was seeing how much grey was in the pile of hair I shaved off.
Post by: Nik on May 11, 2020, 11:26:03 AM
In more leagues restarting news, apparently the British government has cleared the EPL to return at the beginning of June.
And in more exciting news of top level soccer, apparently the Faroe Islands soccer league has already restarted.
Post by: Highlander on May 11, 2020, 03:26:56 PM
Post by: Arn on May 11, 2020, 03:47:24 PM
Post by: Bender on May 12, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
In more leagues restarting news, apparently the British government has cleared the EPL to return at the beginning of June.
And in more exciting news of top level soccer, apparently the Faroe Islands soccer league has already restarted.
Does this make sense logistically? Seems a bit early no?
Post by: Nik on May 12, 2020, 03:45:26 PM
Does this make sense logistically? Seems a bit early no?
Which bit? The EPL or the Faroes? If it's the EPL then a lot of people agree with you. The mayor of London has said the city isn't ready and I'm not sure that even all the teams have agreed. The UK government has been heavily criticized for their response to the outbreak and continues to be, both externally and from the heads of the various devolved governments within the UK itself. So this may be another bad decision.
As to the Faroe Islands I have no idea what the situation is like there so I couldn't say.
Post by: Arn on May 12, 2020, 06:03:01 PM
England’s response has been an embarrassment and all of the 3 devolved nations are handling it much better.
I’m normally very sceptical of our executive here in Northern Ireland but they set out their roadmap to lift the lockdown and I think they’ve done a decent job with it.
We’ve another 3 weeks of the highest level of lockdown “stay home” already set out then we’ll review it again to see if we can start to move along and release any of it. There’s 5 stages and several strands such as education, retail, social gatherings etc and we could see education move to stage 3 but retail only go to stage 2, for example.
They haven’t set defined dates against any state which I think makes sense cos the virus won’t just go away cos we want to get kids back to school on June 1st
(The stages are on pages 10-11 of this https://www.executiveoffice-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/execoffice/execuitveour-approach-to-decision-making.pdf )
Post by: Bender on May 12, 2020, 06:30:13 PM
Faroe Islands coped very well. 180 or so cases and not a single death as far as I know. No new cases since about 24th AprilThat 1-5 scale makes absolutely no sense. They're not defining anything adequately.
England’s response has been an embarrassment and all of the 3 devolved nations are handling it much better.
I’m normally very sceptical of our executive here in Northern Ireland but they set out their roadmap to lift the lockdown and I think they’ve done a decent job with it.
We’ve another 3 weeks of the highest level of lockdown “stay home” already set out then we’ll review it again to see if we can start to move along and release any of it. There’s 5 stages and several strands such as education, retail, social gatherings etc and we could see education move to stage 3 but retail only go to stage 2, for example.
They haven’t set defined dates against any state which I think makes sense cos the virus won’t just go away cos we want to get kids back to school on June 1st
(The stages are on pages 10-11 of this https://www.executiveoffice-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/execoffice/execuitveour-approach-to-decision-making.pdf )
Also, seems to make sense but islands generally seem to be doing. Probably much harder to import cases.
Post by: Arn on May 12, 2020, 06:35:21 PM
*when asked what stay alert meant, it was defined by a government minister as “stay alert will means stay alert by staying at home as much as possible”
Post by: Highlander on May 15, 2020, 12:58:29 PM
https://theathletic.com/1813973/2020/05/15/i-thought-it-was-the-end-borje-salming-opens-up-about-the-scare-of-his-life/
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 15, 2020, 07:24:27 PM
When I am getting frustrated and hoping things open up sooner than later I read the odd story like this and it scares the s__t out of me.
https://theathletic.com/1813973/2020/05/15/i-thought-it-was-the-end-borje-salming-opens-up-about-the-scare-of-his-life/
The secret is to wait for good news from any government around the world and then read CTV news the next day. Guaranteed every story is about the corona apocolypse
Post by: Nik on May 16, 2020, 09:49:00 AM
Watching the Bundesliga game right now. The empty stadium and hearing every word said on the pitch makes for a pretty eerie experience. Definitely think North American sports will either have to be on a delay or they'll have to make their peace with people hearing players swear.
Post by: Nik on May 18, 2020, 05:03:45 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/spain-to-approve-basic-income-scheme-response-coroanvirus-outbreak-2020-5 (https://www.businessinsider.com/spain-to-approve-basic-income-scheme-response-coroanvirus-outbreak-2020-5)
So as I suspected, Spain's Basic Income plan isn't going to be universal but rather will be targeted at lower income people as effectively just an increase in social assistance. The wrinkle is that for people in lower income jobs they'll still get some part of the benefit so as not to discourage employment.
I think this is an idea that won't be going away.
Post by: Nik on May 20, 2020, 11:05:45 AM
British Columbia reported 2 new cases yesterday. Ontario announced 390 new cases today.
For anyone curious, Ontario does not have 195 times the population of BC.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 20, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
British Columbia reported 2 new cases yesterday. Ontario announced 390 new cases today.
For anyone curious, Ontario does not have 195 times the population of BC.
Man I was literally just looking at the daily numbers by province (here (https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/coronavirustracker/) if anyone is interested).
It's nuts how much better their numbers are.
They also aren't even that much further ahead of us in terms of re-opening either.
Post by: bustaheims on May 20, 2020, 11:18:50 AM
The leaders of the countries with the worst coronavirus outbreaks on Earth.
— Maddow Blog (@MaddowBlog) May 20, 2020
Huh. pic.twitter.com/4jJacN6rkr
Post by: herman on May 20, 2020, 11:36:26 AM
Post by: Highlander on May 20, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
Have there been anti-lockdown protests in BC?Yes Herman, I live in Vernon and there was a protest on Saturday, there have been protests around the province as well. There are 4 reported cases of Covid in the entire Okanagan valley, it is next to non existent here. People for the most part are practising social distancing, but most are not wearing masks (which pisses me off). I wear masks in public as a sign of respect to others. What we have to realize as things open up is we still have to be vigilant in our approach to limit a huge second wave. The last thing any of us wants is to go into lock down again.
They opened bars & restaurants yesterday, was a pleasure to have a pint out for a change. The resto had half the tables it normally does and I thought did a very good job of social distancing.
Nik made a good point, about population and incidents. I really think its about population density. Outside of Vancouver and suburbs the rest of the province has smaller cities of around 40K, where in Ontario I would think that 90% of the population live in the Toronto and the Golden Horseshoe (and Ottawa).
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 20, 2020, 12:18:58 PM
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/rosslyn-retirement-authority-inection-neglect-1.5576560
Post by: Nik on May 20, 2020, 12:29:22 PM
Nik made a good point, about population and incidents. I really think its about population density. Outside of Vancouver and suburbs the rest of the province has smaller cities of around 40K, where in Ontario I would think that 90% of the population live in the Toronto and the Golden Horseshoe (and Ottawa).
No. The Golden Horseshoe has a population of about 8 million. Ottawa about another million. The population of Ontario is 14 million and change. There isn't a meaningful difference in terms of what percentage of the population lives in the two largest cities in each province.
But regardless population density isn't an explanation. South Korea, Taiwan, etc...
Post by: Nik on May 20, 2020, 02:39:08 PM
Just to further expand on the problem with population density as an explanation, and because I read an article about this very subject the other day, the most densely populated city in the US is New York which obviously has been hit terribly hard by the virus. The second most densely populated city is San Francisco, which has done fairly well with the virus. Even within New York though the idea doesn't hold up. Manhattan, the most densely populated borough, has been less hard hit than Queens and The Bronx.
Both federally and provincially, Ontario has been let down. There should have been much more strict control of people coming back into the country, things should have shut down sooner and we needed better testing/tracing infrastructure. We still do.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 21, 2020, 10:53:14 AM
Ontario's daily number of new #COVID19 cases continues to trend upward. The 5-day rolling average bottomed out at 328 on May 12. It's since risen steadily to 410. pic.twitter.com/OE3I3njcSd
— Mike Crawley (@CBCQueensPark) May 21, 2020
Post by: Nik on May 21, 2020, 01:01:16 PM
Ontario wasn't ready for its reopening.
Post by: Peter D. on May 22, 2020, 10:56:37 AM
Ontario wasn't ready for its reopening.
Totally see things rolling back and shutting down again.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 22, 2020, 10:58:35 AM
Ontario wasn't ready for its reopening.
Totally see things rolling back and shutting down again.
441 new reported cases today. That's the highest number in 2 weeks.
Post by: Nik on May 22, 2020, 12:54:59 PM
Ontario wasn't ready for its reopening.
Totally see things rolling back and shutting down again.
441 new reported cases today. That's the highest number in 2 weeks.
And that's with doing only 11,000 tests.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on May 22, 2020, 01:34:47 PM
Post by: Highlander on May 22, 2020, 01:58:20 PM
As long as the hospitals don't get swamped with new admissions I think they will just ride it out.Yes I believe that they will try not to re-introduce lockdown again. We saw in NYC that the Javits Center that none or hardly any of those beds were used in Wave 1, as well as the Navy medical ship being absent of cases.
Trump is taking a hard line on keeping people working, damn the torpedo's. I don't think that Canada can spare another 30 billion on extending the Cerb program either.
In BC its strange because of the lack of new cases and the reports in the Interior of only 4 active cases. Not enough people are wearing masks, which I do out of respect for others, but people are respecting the Social distancing rules and using hand sanitizers. I have not noticed anyone at all sneezing or coughing in public, I am not sure if this is just because it is springtime and few cold or flu's are circulating. It certainly feels like we are open again and my son is going back to work at his Chefs job at a prominent local Golf Club, although not everyone was re-hired due to the spacing of tables.
Its just to bad that the curve was not really flattened in Ontario or Quebec before the Phase steps of opening.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 22, 2020, 04:00:19 PM
Ontario wasn't ready for its reopening.
Totally see things rolling back and shutting down again.
441 new reported cases today. That's the highest number in 2 weeks.
And that's with doing only 11,000 tests.
Yesterday's tests aren't today's results.
5,516 tests are still under investigation.
And I'm sorry, the uptick in cases has nothing to do with the retail stores opening Tuesday. Whether or not Ontario was ready is another discussion, but cases going up by 75 people isn't because stores opened 3 days ago.
Post by: bustaheims on May 22, 2020, 04:16:22 PM
And I'm sorry, the uptick in cases has nothing to do with the retail stores opening Tuesday. Whether or not Ontario was ready is another discussion, but cases going up by 75 people isn't because stores opened 3 days ago.
That's true - we won't have those numbers for a couple weeks. However, Home Depot, Lowe's, Canadian Tire, etc. opened for shoppers right around two weeks ago, and the people testing positive now would have been infected right around then. Could be correlation without causation, but, it's not a good look.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 22, 2020, 04:27:17 PM
And I'm sorry, the uptick in cases has nothing to do with the retail stores opening Tuesday. Whether or not Ontario was ready is another discussion, but cases going up by 75 people isn't because stores opened 3 days ago.
That's true - we won't have those numbers for a couple weeks. However, Home Depot, Lowe's, Canadian Tire, etc. opened for shoppers right around two weeks ago, and the people testing positive now would have been infected right around then. Could be correlation without causation, but, it's not a good look.
I think the biggest issue is that they don't know where the infections are coming from now. The health units need to do a better job of tracing where they are actually coming from? It's a little mind boggling.
Is it a factor of people not following the rules? Is it the fact that garden centres opened on Mother's Day? Is it a little bit of everything and everyone dropping the ball?
In the past 2 weeks, I have seen numerous backyard parties, packs of children riding around on bikes, and countless groups walking together for exercise.
We have seen a sharp decline in Northern Ontario in both the Sudbury Health District and the Timmins Health District. there's only 8 active cases in these two areas. In the Sudbury area, there has not been a case reported outside of a long-term care home since April 28th. There's been around 10 cases found in Long-Term care homes since that date. It has certainly flattened up here. Though, testing has never been very substantial up here out of fear of overrunning the hospitals. It would be nice if they were able to open up cities though I'm not sure how we could safely do that.
Post by: Nik on May 22, 2020, 04:58:22 PM
Yesterday's tests aren't today's results.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that but everyone I've known in Toronto who's been tested has gotten results back in 24 hours.
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on May 22, 2020, 05:18:45 PM
I live in the Elgin\St Thomas region with a population just short of 100,000. We currently have 2 active cases of Covid-19, one in the county and one in the city. There has not been an admission to the hospital since April 28th. We have only had 33 cases total and 4 deaths. Closing things down again will be a tough pill to swallow.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 22, 2020, 05:32:05 PM
I live in the Elgin\St Thomas region with a population just short of 100,000. We currently have 2 active cases of Covid-19, one in the county and one in the city. There has not been an admission to the hospital since April 28th. We have only had 33 cases total and 4 deaths. Closing things down again will be a tough pill to swallow.
I feel like things would have to get REALLY bad for the government to roll back into a lock down. Or they would try to roll back in only the areas that are seeing an outbreak again. This will of course impact how soon we enter into stage 2 of the re-opening though.
Post by: Nik on May 22, 2020, 05:42:49 PM
People should keep in mind that part of the reasons why smaller towns/cities haven't been affected as badly is because there's been such a concerted effort to reduce even in-province travel. The more relaxed things get, the more likely people are to go to their cottages and such, the more likely things will spread outside of the problem areas.
As a lot of people smarter than me have said, if strict containment measures work then you'll get people questioning if they were necessary because they won't see the damage that was avoided.
Post by: Highlander on May 22, 2020, 06:56:32 PM
All stores mentioned have never been closed in BC or the Interior to be specific, yet cases remain very low, perhaps this is because we never had a high curve to begin with.And I'm sorry, the uptick in cases has nothing to do with the retail stores opening Tuesday. Whether or not Ontario was ready is another discussion, but cases going up by 75 people isn't because stores opened 3 days ago.
That's true - we won't have those numbers for a couple weeks. However, Home Depot, Lowe's, Canadian Tire, etc. opened for shoppers right around two weeks ago, and the people testing positive now would have been infected right around then. Could be correlation without causation, but, it's not a good look.
Post by: Bender on May 22, 2020, 11:50:49 PM
I was doing rudimentary digging and 12million people live in Southern ON alone. If we couldn't stamp it out early and test, trace, isolate quickly then it makes sense that it could and would get quickly out of hand due to exponential growth. You can deal with it with density but you have to clamp down fast and hard like SK but we are a far cry from them.Have there been anti-lockdown protests in BC?Yes Herman, I live in Vernon and there was a protest on Saturday, there have been protests around the province as well. There are 4 reported cases of Covid in the entire Okanagan valley, it is next to non existent here. People for the most part are practising social distancing, but most are not wearing masks (which pisses me off). I wear masks in public as a sign of respect to others. What we have to realize as things open up is we still have to be vigilant in our approach to limit a huge second wave. The last thing any of us wants is to go into lock down again.
They opened bars & restaurants yesterday, was a pleasure to have a pint out for a change. The resto had half the tables it normally does and I thought did a very good job of social distancing.
Nik made a good point, about population and incidents. I really think its about population density. Outside of Vancouver and suburbs the rest of the province has smaller cities of around 40K, where in Ontario I would think that 90% of the population live in the Toronto and the Golden Horseshoe (and Ottawa).
Post by: Bender on May 22, 2020, 11:51:22 PM
Not sure how much non-local attention this received, but there's a retirement home here in Hamilton that got hit hard by Covid. All 63 residents tested positive, as well as 20 staff members. They had to evacuate the entire building this past Friday. And then as if this story couldn't get any worse one resident was actually left and forgotten about in the building until the following night.What the hell is going on? How does the province not have a handle on this by now?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/rosslyn-retirement-authority-inection-neglect-1.5576560
Post by: Bender on May 22, 2020, 11:55:21 PM
There are epis calling for rolling lockdown. I.e. if Kingston for example sees no cases maybe it shouldn't be locked down? Although does that stop Toronto crazies from driving to Kingston and infecting people?
I live in the Elgin\St Thomas region with a population just short of 100,000. We currently have 2 active cases of Covid-19, one in the county and one in the city. There has not been an admission to the hospital since April 28th. We have only had 33 cases total and 4 deaths. Closing things down again will be a tough pill to swallow.
I feel like things would have to get REALLY bad for the government to roll back into a lock down. Or they would try to roll back in only the areas that are seeing an outbreak again. This will of course impact how soon we enter into stage 2 of the re-opening though.
Post by: Bender on May 22, 2020, 11:58:56 PM
Public Health's deliverable is the non-occurance of events!
People should keep in mind that part of the reasons why smaller towns/cities haven't been affected as badly is because there's been such a concerted effort to reduce even in-province travel. The more relaxed things get, the more likely people are to go to their cottages and such, the more likely things will spread outside of the problem areas.
As a lot of people smarter than me have said, if strict containment measures work then you'll get people questioning if they were necessary because they won't see the damage that was avoided.
Post by: Bender on May 23, 2020, 12:02:07 AM
I think cases in Washington were enough for BC Public Health to act swiftly to nip in the bud. Exponential growth shows once it gets out of hand it gets out of hand quickly. Now we have an R0 of 1.2 in Ontario so things aren't getting any better and our CMOH refuses to acknowledge increased R0 and instead said "Let's wait to see if this is a blip." How much time do we have to wait and see when epis are showing that we are no longer suppressing the virus as we were 2 weeks ago?All stores mentioned have never been closed in BC or the Interior to be specific, yet cases remain very low, perhaps this is because we never had a high curve to begin with.And I'm sorry, the uptick in cases has nothing to do with the retail stores opening Tuesday. Whether or not Ontario was ready is another discussion, but cases going up by 75 people isn't because stores opened 3 days ago.
That's true - we won't have those numbers for a couple weeks. However, Home Depot, Lowe's, Canadian Tire, etc. opened for shoppers right around two weeks ago, and the people testing positive now would have been infected right around then. Could be correlation without causation, but, it's not a good look.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 23, 2020, 07:00:31 AM
Although does that stop Toronto crazies from driving to Kingston and infecting people?
That's the problem I see if certain cities opened up and others didn't. I mean, I'd love to see hockey arenas open here in Sudbury so we can get back on the ice but I also know that people would flock to the area to also get back on the ice.
Post by: Bender on May 23, 2020, 07:18:17 PM
Post by: louisstamos on May 23, 2020, 08:17:59 PM
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/j6ZlX8ghxNFRknObVk/200.gif)
Post by: Guilt Trip on May 24, 2020, 10:08:51 AM
This is bad...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200523/8f33accae8ce74808c096b964463222c.jpg)Can't fix stupid.
Post by: Frycer14 on May 24, 2020, 10:56:01 AM
I went golfing yesterday. I was a bit apprehensive, but I was impressed with all the precautions.
Post by: Highlander on May 24, 2020, 11:35:11 AM
Its Ok, they all have enough disinfectants to drink when they get home; extra Bleach, Drano, etc. Stupid is as stupid does.This is bad...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200523/8f33accae8ce74808c096b964463222c.jpg)Can't fix stupid.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 24, 2020, 12:40:07 PM
This is bad...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200523/8f33accae8ce74808c096b964463222c.jpg)
Which brings us back to the past couple posts....My business, and other businesses in Northern Ontario will continue to struggle because of a$$hole decisions in Toronto.
Post by: Nik on May 24, 2020, 07:21:02 PM
I'm all for calling these people idiots, because they are, but I think this highlights a problem we're seeing in a lot of places. You can't partially open stuff without enforcement. You can't say "Beaches are open but only at 33% of regular capacity" without figuring out who gets to go and who doesn't. Because otherwise everyone is going to think they get to go to the beach that day.
And people can blame Toronto all they want but a lack of enforcement of guidelines has been plaguing the provincial response since the beginning.
Post by: Bender on May 24, 2020, 10:11:47 PM
Can't argue with any of that.
I'm all for calling these people idiots, because they are, but I think this highlights a problem we're seeing in a lot of places. You can't partially open stuff without enforcement. You can't say "Beaches are open but only at 33% of regular capacity" without figuring out who gets to go and who doesn't. Because otherwise everyone is going to think they get to go to the beach that day.
And people can blame Toronto all they want but a lack of enforcement of guidelines has been plaguing the provincial response since the beginning.
Post by: Arn on May 25, 2020, 02:02:33 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/boris-johnson-defence-dominic-cummings-anger-from-allies-and-opponents-alike
After putting in place a lockdown and barring people from even doing things like attending funerals of their own family as part of that lockdown, the Prime Minister’s own chief of staff decided to make multiple 260+ mile journeys across the country (with his wife) *both while showing symptoms of the coronavirus*.
Now you would think that like the scientific advisers who had done the same for undermining the lockdown advice (and not even while potentially infected with the virus and spreading it across the country) that would be at least worth an apology and a resignation. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52553229 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52177171 )
But oh no.
Quote
the prime minister said on Sunday that Cummings had “acted responsibly, legally and with integrity”.
Even the more extreme right wing press including the Daily Mail has said this is a step too far for a pretty horrific attempt at a government and there has been a pretty big backlash from within the Conservative party.
Post by: Arn on May 25, 2020, 02:06:24 AM
RIP genuine UK Civil Service tweet, deleted but not forgotten. pic.twitter.com/p2AyLm5YOR
— James Felton (@JimMFelton) May 24, 2020
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 25, 2020, 08:06:56 AM
I'm all for calling these people idiots, because they are, but I think this highlights a problem we're seeing in a lot of places. You can't partially open stuff without enforcement. You can't say "Beaches are open but only at 33% of regular capacity" without figuring out who gets to go and who doesn't. Because otherwise everyone is going to think they get to go to the beach that day.
And people can blame Toronto all they want but a lack of enforcement of guidelines has been plaguing the provincial response since the beginning.
You can call it whatever you like. But when a good chunk of the province is following the rules and their case numbers show it, yet you watch the protests in Toronto, and the idiots in that park, I think we are within our rights to call them a$$holes.
Post by: Nik on May 25, 2020, 10:37:15 AM
I feel like I covered that in my first six words.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 25, 2020, 11:12:52 AM
I feel like I covered that in my first six words.
Of course you did.
Post by: Nik on May 25, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
The latest from the shower that call themselves the British government:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/boris-johnson-defence-dominic-cummings-anger-from-allies-and-opponents-alike
After putting in place a lockdown and barring people from even doing things like attending funerals of their own family as part of that lockdown, the Prime Minister’s own chief of staff decided to make multiple 260+ mile journeys across the country (with his wife) *both while showing symptoms of the coronavirus*.
Now you would think that like the scientific advisers who had done the same for undermining the lockdown advice (and not even while potentially infected with the virus and spreading it across the country) that would be at least worth an apology and a resignation. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52553229 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52177171 )
But oh no.Quotethe prime minister said on Sunday that Cummings had “acted responsibly, legally and with integrity”.
Even the more extreme right wing press including the Daily Mail has said this is a step too far for a pretty horrific attempt at a government and there has been a pretty big backlash from within the Conservative party.
In a way I feel like the Cummings stuff is sort of a perfect encapsulation of what I'm talking about. His defenders are saying that, you know, it was reasonable to have the concerns he did and the risk wasn't very high for him or his family.
But, again, the issue is always going to be about whether or not what's relatively safe for one person to do is safe for everyone to do and if everyone who got sick decided to go for long drives, well, it wouldn't be safe. That's why any guideline or even rule is useless without enforcement.
Right now Rob Ford is constantly talking about how he's reluctant to impose on commercial landlords something that would stop them from kicking out tenants and hopes they'll just choose to do the "right" thing on their own. I'm really not sure how much more evidence we need that people aren't choosing the right things and actual enforceable regulation is the only real way out of this.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 26, 2020, 07:32:26 AM
The latest from the shower that call themselves the British government:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/boris-johnson-defence-dominic-cummings-anger-from-allies-and-opponents-alike
After putting in place a lockdown and barring people from even doing things like attending funerals of their own family as part of that lockdown, the Prime Minister’s own chief of staff decided to make multiple 260+ mile journeys across the country (with his wife) *both while showing symptoms of the coronavirus*.
Now you would think that like the scientific advisers who had done the same for undermining the lockdown advice (and not even while potentially infected with the virus and spreading it across the country) that would be at least worth an apology and a resignation. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52553229 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52177171 )
But oh no.Quotethe prime minister said on Sunday that Cummings had “acted responsibly, legally and with integrity”.
Even the more extreme right wing press including the Daily Mail has said this is a step too far for a pretty horrific attempt at a government and there has been a pretty big backlash from within the Conservative party.
In a way I feel like the Cummings stuff is sort of a perfect encapsulation of what I'm talking about. His defenders are saying that, you know, it was reasonable to have the concerns he did and the risk wasn't very high for him or his family.
But, again, the issue is always going to be about whether or not what's relatively safe for one person to do is safe for everyone to do and if everyone who got sick decided to go for long drives, well, it wouldn't be safe. That's why any guideline or even rule is useless without enforcement.
Right now Rob Ford is constantly talking about how he's reluctant to impose on commercial landlords something that would stop them from kicking out tenants and hopes they'll just choose to do the "right" thing on their own. I'm really not sure how much more evidence we need that people aren't choosing the right things and actual enforceable regulation is the only real way out of this.
Rob Ford as well as Justin Trudeau and other politicians are playing a political game with this. They are using it as an opportunity to gain votes. So, when it comes to making the real tough decisions, they sit on the fence and hope that both sides figure it out oni their own so they can take credit for over seeing it.
Post by: Nik on May 26, 2020, 07:52:26 AM
Rob Ford as well as Justin Trudeau and other politicians are playing a political game with this. They are using it as an opportunity to gain votes. So, when it comes to making the real tough decisions, they sit on the fence and hope that both sides figure it out oni their own so they can take credit for over seeing it.
I guess I'm not sure I see siding with small businesses over commercial landlords as being a particularly tough decision politically. It's not like commercial real estate magnates have a big constituency. And I think both guys have drawn their fair share of plaudits and for good reason.
Now, Ford at some point is going to have to answer for Ontario's relatively poor performance in terms of actual numbers and I'm not sure that applies to Trudeau as much but I think there's a reason both guys are seeing their approval numbers jump outside of just crisis solidarity.
Post by: Bullfrog on May 26, 2020, 09:28:34 AM
People should keep in mind that part of the reasons why smaller towns/cities haven't been affected as badly is because there's been such a concerted effort to reduce even in-province travel. The more relaxed things get, the more likely people are to go to their cottages and such, the more likely things will spread outside of the problem areas.
As a lot of people smarter than me have said, if strict containment measures work then you'll get people questioning if they were necessary because they won't see the damage that was avoided.
You're right on here. I'm up in Northwestern Ontario where we've not been hit hard with the virus at all. Despite the relative feeling of complacency (i.e. knowing there's a very low public risk here at the moment) people here have been surprisingly vigilant with following the guidelines and rules.
There is a general sense of anxiety though as we're basically waiting for the shoe to drop.
Our hospital emergency department usually runs at 115% capacity but has been running at less than 60%. It's starting to climb up into the 80% range now.
In our city of 110,000 (maybe 150,000 in the district?), we've had only 81 confirmed cases. There are only 2 active cases, with one deceased and the rest resolved.
Post by: Nik on May 26, 2020, 09:45:18 AM
You're right on here. I'm up in Northwestern Ontario where we've not been hit hard with the virus at all. Despite the relative feeling of complacency (i.e. knowing there's a very low public risk here at the moment) people here have been surprisingly vigilant with following the guidelines and rules.
There is a general sense of anxiety though as we're basically waiting for the shoe to drop.
Our hospital emergency department usually runs at 115% capacity but has been running at less than 60%. It's starting to climb up into the 80% range now.
In our city of 110,000 (maybe 150,000 in the district?), we've had only 81 confirmed cases. There are only 2 active cases, with one deceased and the rest resolved.
Yeah, I do think people need to keep some of that in mind when looking at Toronto. Toronto isn't a hotspot because people were irresponsible or even population density. It's just that it's where a ton of people live and where a lot of people enter the country.
Obviously the people at Trinity Bellwoods were being stupid but you're not seeing a lot of people who are making responsible decisions at their own expense. My parents at this time of the year would have usually been up at our farm in the Kawarthas but instead are staying at home in a neighbourhood where two of their local grocery stores have had virus outbreaks as well as the nearest ER.
Post by: Frank E on May 26, 2020, 09:47:39 AM
You're right on here. I'm up in Northwestern Ontario where we've not been hit hard with the virus at all. Despite the relative feeling of complacency (i.e. knowing there's a very low public risk here at the moment) people here have been surprisingly vigilant with following the guidelines and rules.
There is a general sense of anxiety though as we're basically waiting for the shoe to drop.
Our hospital emergency department usually runs at 115% capacity but has been running at less than 60%. It's starting to climb up into the 80% range now.
In our city of 110,000 (maybe 150,000 in the district?), we've had only 81 confirmed cases. There are only 2 active cases, with one deceased and the rest resolved.
Yeah, I do think people need to keep some of that in mind when looking at Toronto. Toronto isn't a hotspot because people were irresponsible or even population density. It's just that it's where a ton of people live and where a lot of people enter the country.
Obviously the people at Trinity Bellwoods were being stupid but you're not seeing a lot of people who are making responsible decisions at their own expense. My parents at this time of the year would have usually been up at our farm in the Kawarthas but instead are staying at home in a neighbourhood where two of their local grocery stores have had virus outbreaks as well as the nearest ER.
How's the pickled fish from those stores?
Post by: Nik on May 26, 2020, 10:11:49 AM
How's the pickled fish from those stores?
Like everything in Toronto, better than things from anywhere else.
Post by: bustaheims on May 26, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
Yeah, I do think people need to keep some of that in mind when looking at Toronto. Toronto isn't a hotspot because people were irresponsible or even population density. It's just that it's where a ton of people live and where a lot of people enter the country.
Obviously the people at Trinity Bellwoods were being stupid but you're not seeing a lot of people who are making responsible decisions at their own expense. My parents at this time of the year would have usually been up at our farm in the Kawarthas but instead are staying at home in a neighbourhood where two of their local grocery stores have had virus outbreaks as well as the nearest ER.
Where in the Kawarthas? My fiancee's family has a cottage up in that area near Coboconk.
Post by: Nik on May 26, 2020, 10:56:18 AM
Yeah, I do think people need to keep some of that in mind when looking at Toronto. Toronto isn't a hotspot because people were irresponsible or even population density. It's just that it's where a ton of people live and where a lot of people enter the country.
Obviously the people at Trinity Bellwoods were being stupid but you're not seeing a lot of people who are making responsible decisions at their own expense. My parents at this time of the year would have usually been up at our farm in the Kawarthas but instead are staying at home in a neighbourhood where two of their local grocery stores have had virus outbreaks as well as the nearest ER.
Where in the Kawarthas? My fiancee's family has a cottage up in that area near Coboconk.
I'm being a little generous geographically there but it's outside of the town of Bancroft.
Post by: Frank E on May 26, 2020, 11:14:50 AM
Yeah, I do think people need to keep some of that in mind when looking at Toronto. Toronto isn't a hotspot because people were irresponsible or even population density. It's just that it's where a ton of people live and where a lot of people enter the country.
Obviously the people at Trinity Bellwoods were being stupid but you're not seeing a lot of people who are making responsible decisions at their own expense. My parents at this time of the year would have usually been up at our farm in the Kawarthas but instead are staying at home in a neighbourhood where two of their local grocery stores have had virus outbreaks as well as the nearest ER.
Where in the Kawarthas? My fiancee's family has a cottage up in that area near Coboconk.
I'm being a little generous geographically there but it's outside of the town of Bancroft.
I've got a nice little spot in the Muskokas that I'm looking forward to spending some time at soon.
It's near the city of London.
Post by: Nik on May 26, 2020, 11:18:32 AM
I've got a nice little spot in the Muskokas that I'm looking forward to spending some time at soon.
It's near the city of London.
Jeez, I don't know. It's north of St. Clair so all I know is it's untamed wilderness full of meth heads.
Post by: Frank E on May 26, 2020, 11:31:00 AM
I've got a nice little spot in the Muskokas that I'm looking forward to spending some time at soon.
It's near the city of London.
Jeez, I don't know. It's north of St. Clair so all I know is it's untamed wilderness full of meth heads.
And a bunch of CPC voters...be careful up there, they're all nuts.
Post by: Nik on May 26, 2020, 11:33:26 AM
Jeez, I don't know. It's north of St. Clair so all I know is it's untamed wilderness full of meth heads.
And a bunch of CPC voters...
Department of Redundancy Department.
Post by: Frank E on May 26, 2020, 11:52:53 AM
Post by: bustaheims on May 26, 2020, 11:55:17 AM
Does anyone personally know anybody that has it/had it?
My father's best man passed away because of it. He had a number of other health issues - he contracted it while in hospital prepping for heart surgery in the early days of the pandemic. He lived in England, so I didn't know him well, but I had met him on a number of occasions.
Post by: Bill_Berg on May 26, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
Post by: Highlander on May 26, 2020, 12:39:37 PM
Does anyone personally know anybody that has it/had it?My 97 year old Mom died in an Ontario nursing home in February from Covid like symptoms, so we are speculating on whether or not this was the cause.
Two weeks after we got home from Vegas I came down with a sore throat and fever of 104F for about 12 hours. When I spoke to my cardiologist two weeks ago, I mentioned this to him and asked if I could be tested for antibodies. No way he said, don't have enough tests to go around.
So did I or didn't I? Outside of this, just heard about several people where my sister lives in Oshawa who died of it. As mentioned only one person in Vernon has died of it and this fellow traveled back from Turkey, fell ill and died, was about 60 I think. We were told there are only 4 cases in the Interior.
Just had a Telus installer to me house to switch out service with Shaw, he was not allowed into the house. So how can an installer, install?
Post by: louisstamos on May 26, 2020, 01:30:38 PM
Does anyone personally know anybody that has it/had it?
My old neighbour's great grandmother. 102 years old, she was in one of the nursing homes that got hit. Very sad. :(
Post by: Bender on May 26, 2020, 02:12:38 PM
Does anyone personally know anybody that has it/had it?A guy in his 50s in a different office from me had it, pulled through.
At more arm's length my uncle has a bunch of friends in New York City (a few I'm familiar with through Facebook) where a surprisingly large number had got it. I don't know the details to their experience, but they seem ok now.
Another of his friends passed away on a ventilator in Florida. Mid-60s, overweight with diabetes.
On a side note I wish we had a better handle on underlying conditions and also moved away from the stigma that underlying conditions are always the fault of the patient. I was born with some bizarro cough variant asthma type of thing where I almost automatically get bronchitis if I don't take an inhaler when I get sick, but I'm otherwise 100% normal and have a generally healthy active lifestyle. If I take an inhaler I'm usually fine, but there have been certain illnesses where the inhaler doesn't do much, and things can get a bit hairy. I worry that I'm at risk even though I'm in my 30s because of a bad dice roll.
Post by: Nik on May 27, 2020, 09:17:28 AM
You know, over in the thread about the NHL's return someone made the case that no reasonable person could ever be surprised by people who were primarily driven by a profit-motive caring more for that profit than for health and safety.
So, you know, it is a bit strange to see so many headlines in the newspaper about just how shocked, shocked, our Premier is that people running care homes for the elderly in the interest of making money cut corners and jeopardized safety in the interest of their own profitability.
It's almost like the market-based economy doesn't handle important social dynamics well. Whoda thunk it?
Post by: herman on May 27, 2020, 09:27:59 AM
You know, over in the thread about the NHL's return someone made the case that no reasonable person could ever be surprised by people who were primarily driven by a profit-motive caring more for that profit than for health and safety.
So, you know, it is a bit strange to see so many headlines in the newspaper about just how shocked, shocked, our Premier is that people running care homes for the elderly in the interest of making money cut corners and jeopardized safety in the interest of their own profitability.
It's almost like the market-based economy doesn't handle important social dynamics well. Whoda thunk it?
You mean the same premier who cut funding to LTC inspections and public health and education and support for children with special needs?
Post by: L K on May 27, 2020, 09:57:49 AM
As long as the hospitals don't get swamped with new admissions I think they will just ride it out.
This is one of the things that is getting left out of the discussion too much. Shutting things down wasn't about preventing COVID cases. It was from preventing overrun ICUs. Having an uptick in cases if they are primarily mild isn't going to be the limiting factor on whether things get shut back down. Besides we are still on the early wave of seeing if opening things back up causes a problem. It's going to be next weekend and the week after that that will be a much better indicator of whether we are heading for another problem.
Post by: L K on May 27, 2020, 10:01:57 AM
You know, over in the thread about the NHL's return someone made the case that no reasonable person could ever be surprised by people who were primarily driven by a profit-motive caring more for that profit than for health and safety.
So, you know, it is a bit strange to see so many headlines in the newspaper about just how shocked, shocked, our Premier is that people running care homes for the elderly in the interest of making money cut corners and jeopardized safety in the interest of their own profitability.
It's almost like the market-based economy doesn't handle important social dynamics well. Whoda thunk it?
I'm not surprised because this is generally what society does but this isn't a new problem with our nursing homes. Some of them are absolutely great. Others are abysmal. From my limited experience doing some coverage work for them, more often seeing their patients on ER visits, we all know the ones that are good and which ones are garbage. Skills have been downgraded. Far too many buildings are going to fail accessibility and code standards come 2024. Every year when dozens of residents die from the flu or a norovirus outbreak noone bats an eye.
Big changes need to happen to our nursing home system. The problem is that requires a considerably infrastructure investment and that will come at the cost of other health care expenses unless society as a whole embraces big tax increases.
Post by: L K on May 27, 2020, 10:04:15 AM
You know, over in the thread about the NHL's return someone made the case that no reasonable person could ever be surprised by people who were primarily driven by a profit-motive caring more for that profit than for health and safety.
So, you know, it is a bit strange to see so many headlines in the newspaper about just how shocked, shocked, our Premier is that people running care homes for the elderly in the interest of making money cut corners and jeopardized safety in the interest of their own profitability.
It's almost like the market-based economy doesn't handle important social dynamics well. Whoda thunk it?
You mean the same premier who cut funding to LTC inspections and public health and education and support for children with special needs?
Unfortunately our last premier/health minister was doing the same thing. The Liberals pledged to increases inspections back in 2013 and three years later backed away from it because they didn't have enough inspectors to keep up with that pace. The deterioration of our LTC facilities is something that is decades in the making.
Post by: Nik on May 27, 2020, 10:25:01 AM
Big changes need to happen to our nursing home system. The problem is that requires a considerably infrastructure investment and that will come at the cost of other health care expenses unless society as a whole embraces big tax increases.
I don't think there's a real choice there. Because realistically the public has three options:
1) Leave things as they are
2) Embrace some sort of spending increase to fund a public system
3) Maintain a private system but have enough enforceable regulations so as to raise standards to acceptable levels
I guess a fourth would be to divert money away from other aspects of the health care system as you suggest but I think that's a non-starter. Assuming #1 isn't really an option, #3 would almost certainly mean much higher costs at the point of use because higher standards cost money(as does enforcement). So people would be paying for increases regardless, the question is just whether or not you want to socialize those costs and I think our health care system generally tells us it's better to do that than not. At least with the right sort of tax increases, a higher chunk of the burden can fall on the wealthy and corporate profits.
Post by: Peter D. on May 27, 2020, 10:25:35 AM
Does anyone personally know anybody that has it/had it?
Not personally, thankfully. *knock on wood*
But starting to hear about people we know who have had someone pass away from it -- a former co-worker's mom, and a close family friend's cousin's dad.
Post by: TML fan on May 27, 2020, 10:55:22 AM
My cousin has it.
Post by: PCB on May 27, 2020, 11:13:10 AM
After the results came back positive the 4 of us were placed in quarantine for 2 weeks.
The irony here is that he was the most insulated from people in our family.
In retrospect my other son who was still working at an essential service probably contracted covid and brought it home. He and I can now point to symptoms that at the time seemed too vague to worry us but i am convinced we were all infected.
Testing for us produced negative results but I'll bet we are now carrying the antibodies.
Post by: Nik on May 27, 2020, 11:35:54 AM
Good numbers in Ontario today with another sub-300 day of new cases. And New Zealand looks to have more or less locked things down with no patients in hospital and 5 days of no new cases.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on May 27, 2020, 12:13:44 PM
Good numbers in Ontario today with another sub-300 day of new cases.
Nice. Although based on the mother's day timeline we probably shouldn't get too excited until we see what the numbers are next week.
And New Zealand looks to have more or less locked things down with no patients in hospital and 5 days of no new cases.
It's going to be really interesting to see what measures a place like New Zealand keeps in place for the foreseeable future while we still wait for a vaccine.
Post by: L K on May 27, 2020, 12:39:13 PM
Big changes need to happen to our nursing home system. The problem is that requires a considerably infrastructure investment and that will come at the cost of other health care expenses unless society as a whole embraces big tax increases.
I don't think there's a real choice there. Because realistically the public has three options:
1) Leave things as they are
2) Embrace some sort of spending increase to fund a public system
3) Maintain a private system but have enough enforceable regulations so as to raise standards to acceptable levels
I guess a fourth would be to divert money away from other aspects of the health care system as you suggest but I think that's a non-starter. Assuming #1 isn't really an option, #3 would almost certainly mean much higher costs at the point of use because higher standards cost money(as does enforcement). So people would be paying for increases regardless, the question is just whether or not you want to socialize those costs and I think our health care system generally tells us it's better to do that than not. At least with the right sort of tax increases, a higher chunk of the burden can fall on the wealthy and corporate profits.
Number three is precisely why we are here right now. Before Ford the Liberals weren't willing to hire more regulators to do inspections. The Ford government just cut them back further. We have chronically underpaid HCW in the nursing homes so they don't want to work there and can easily get a job elsewhere because the environment is pretty toxic for employees.
Post by: Nik on May 27, 2020, 12:49:36 PM
Nice. Although based on the mother's day timeline we probably shouldn't get too excited until we see what the numbers are next week.
Not to worry. I am resolute in my determination to stay depressed and fearful.
Post by: Highlander on May 27, 2020, 01:02:14 PM
Strange but in the Interior, I would say that only 1% of people are wearing Face Masks whilst out. I wear mine out of respect for others, not for self protection.
Post by: Nik on May 27, 2020, 01:40:40 PM
A very good podcast with an interview with Dr. David Fisman, who I think Herman mentioned earlier, about why Ontario isn't handling the crisis very well:
https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/ (https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/)
Post by: Bullfrog on May 27, 2020, 04:57:31 PM
Nice. Although based on the mother's day timeline we probably shouldn't get too excited until we see what the numbers are next week.
Not to worry. I am resolute in my determination to stay depressed and fearful.
Same here. If restrictions are lifted, I can no longer use Cov-19 as an excuse for why some of my work projects aren't done.
Post by: Bender on May 27, 2020, 07:10:24 PM
He's been a great listen. He also has some great zingers on twitter.
A very good podcast with an interview with Dr. David Fisman, who I think Herman mentioned earlier, about why Ontario isn't handling the crisis very well:
https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/ (https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/)
Post by: Bender on May 27, 2020, 07:18:39 PM
Is it just about inspections? I mean the reports say that private care facilities are far worse than public in general and this was ushered in by Mike Harris from what I understand although I was too young at the time when he was running the show. It's kind of fishy to me that he's on the board for Chartwell imo.Big changes need to happen to our nursing home system. The problem is that requires a considerably infrastructure investment and that will come at the cost of other health care expenses unless society as a whole embraces big tax increases.
I don't think there's a real choice there. Because realistically the public has three options:
1) Leave things as they are
2) Embrace some sort of spending increase to fund a public system
3) Maintain a private system but have enough enforceable regulations so as to raise standards to acceptable levels
I guess a fourth would be to divert money away from other aspects of the health care system as you suggest but I think that's a non-starter. Assuming #1 isn't really an option, #3 would almost certainly mean much higher costs at the point of use because higher standards cost money(as does enforcement). So people would be paying for increases regardless, the question is just whether or not you want to socialize those costs and I think our health care system generally tells us it's better to do that than not. At least with the right sort of tax increases, a higher chunk of the burden can fall on the wealthy and corporate profits.
Number three is precisely why we are here right now. Before Ford the Liberals weren't willing to hire more regulators to do inspections. The Ford government just cut them back further. We have chronically underpaid HCW in the nursing homes so they don't want to work there and can easily get a job elsewhere because the environment is pretty toxic for employees.
And to some extent if these are organizations that should be of some repute why does it take inspections to ensure they do a baseline level of work? I.e. if the system was half decent shouldn't there be fewer findings in audits in the first place?
Post by: Bender on May 27, 2020, 07:23:34 PM
This is going to sound a bit harsh, but imo boomers, probably the largest and most influential cohort up to now, know their time is coming after this exposed how bad things have become and they don't want their kids do to them what they've done to their parents. If it's not accepted by boomers then they're accepting a bad future that they're already witnessing in real time.
You know, over in the thread about the NHL's return someone made the case that no reasonable person could ever be surprised by people who were primarily driven by a profit-motive caring more for that profit than for health and safety.
So, you know, it is a bit strange to see so many headlines in the newspaper about just how shocked, shocked, our Premier is that people running care homes for the elderly in the interest of making money cut corners and jeopardized safety in the interest of their own profitability.
It's almost like the market-based economy doesn't handle important social dynamics well. Whoda thunk it?
I'm not surprised because this is generally what society does but this isn't a new problem with our nursing homes. Some of them are absolutely great. Others are abysmal. From my limited experience doing some coverage work for them, more often seeing their patients on ER visits, we all know the ones that are good and which ones are garbage. Skills have been downgraded. Far too many buildings are going to fail accessibility and code standards come 2024. Every year when dozens of residents die from the flu or a norovirus outbreak noone bats an eye.
Big changes need to happen to our nursing home system. The problem is that requires a considerably infrastructure investment and that will come at the cost of other health care expenses unless society as a whole embraces big tax increases.
Post by: Bender on May 27, 2020, 07:34:20 PM
Are they not to some extent one and the same? To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?As long as the hospitals don't get swamped with new admissions I think they will just ride it out.
This is one of the things that is getting left out of the discussion too much. Shutting things down wasn't about preventing COVID cases. It was from preventing overrun ICUs. Having an uptick in cases if they are primarily mild isn't going to be the limiting factor on whether things get shut back down. Besides we are still on the early wave of seeing if opening things back up causes a problem. It's going to be next weekend and the week after that that will be a much better indicator of whether we are heading for another problem.
I also don't see things backsliding into lockdown unless ICUs start to fill up but that doesn't seem like an elegant solution since ICU admissions and death are lagging indicators.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 28, 2020, 07:31:55 AM
You know, over in the thread about the NHL's return someone made the case that no reasonable person could ever be surprised by people who were primarily driven by a profit-motive caring more for that profit than for health and safety.
So, you know, it is a bit strange to see so many headlines in the newspaper about just how shocked, shocked, our Premier is that people running care homes for the elderly in the interest of making money cut corners and jeopardized safety in the interest of their own profitability.
Who ever said Doug Ford was a reasonable person.
That being said, he has to feign shock. He can't come out and say "I knew it was that bad..."
Post by: OldTimeHockey on May 28, 2020, 07:35:42 AM
To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?
I don't know that they necessarily go hand in hand. If the cases are spread out over a much longer period you may still get the same number of cases in the end, but the health system won't be overrun.
Post by: Highlander on May 28, 2020, 11:36:42 AM
https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/china-is-fighting-a-new-covid-19-outbreak-has-the-virus-changed/
Post by: Bender on May 28, 2020, 12:19:29 PM
But isn't that the point? Maybe you don't stop everyone from getting infected eventually but you do prevent infections that would normally happen all at a much faster rate, so in that sense you are preventing cases or at least holding them off. If hospitalizations are just a mathematical fraction of number of cases then it stands to reason that the lower overall case count will lead to lower overall ICU count, so in that sense reducing case count (300 cases a day vs 3000 cases a day) matters.To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?
I don't know that they necessarily go hand in hand. If the cases are spread out over a much longer period you may still get the same number of cases in the end, but the health system won't be overrun.
Post by: bustaheims on May 28, 2020, 12:33:17 PM
Are they not to some extent one and the same? To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?
Yes and no. Obviously, preventing them from happening now is what helps to limit ICU admissions, but, in order to achieve herd immunity (absent a vaccine, at least), it's really just a matter of spreading the cases without lowering the end total of infections. So, instead of 100,000 cases in a 2 month period, it's 100,000 cases in a 6 month period - or whatever the real numbers and timelines end up being. Same number of people getting sick, just less of them being sick at the same time.
Post by: herman on May 28, 2020, 01:06:02 PM
A very good podcast with an interview with Dr. David Fisman, who I think Herman mentioned earlier, about why Ontario isn't handling the crisis very well:
https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/ (https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/)
Haha what did I mention now? I have no recollection of this, but thanks for the share!
We're several months past it now, but there was a huge window of opportunity for North America to handle this properly, but due to leadership being what it is here...
A) Asian countries were raising the alarm bells back in October. Most of them knew SARS up close and personal and put measures in place (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e6Uikbh3vA) after they recovered to ensure this didn't catch them off guard again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAaDC0lv13s); i.e. lots of examples of procedure and messaging and equipment; western nations seemingly scoffed from afar and said, that wouldn't happen here.
B) It did. Italy, Spain, UK, all got thrashed thoroughly for taking it chill, and their subsequent warnings to the rest of the world went mostly unheeded. Those Twitter threads from front-line workers were chilling and heart-breaking.
C) It was WINTER when the virus started to appear more serious here. If our governments took the warnings seriously: manufacturing should have been leveraged immediately towards masks, tests, care facilities, ventilators (a bit late for that); distancing measures should have been spun up when it was cold and snowy anyway instead of... March Break.
Is there significant economic impact to shutting things down so early? Um yes, but you know what else is a significant economic impact? Letting things drag out over 2-3 years with periodic shutdowns because either people are buttholes and selfish, or there are no social infrastructures for supporting/sheltering all citizens in times of need.
Post by: Nik on May 28, 2020, 02:02:08 PM
Haha what did I mention now? I have no recollection of this, but thanks for the share!
My mistake, it was Bender. In my defense you both have 6 letters in your name and I very rarely listen to people who aren't me.
Post by: L K on May 28, 2020, 03:38:55 PM
Are they not to some extent one and the same? To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?As long as the hospitals don't get swamped with new admissions I think they will just ride it out.
This is one of the things that is getting left out of the discussion too much. Shutting things down wasn't about preventing COVID cases. It was from preventing overrun ICUs. Having an uptick in cases if they are primarily mild isn't going to be the limiting factor on whether things get shut back down. Besides we are still on the early wave of seeing if opening things back up causes a problem. It's going to be next weekend and the week after that that will be a much better indicator of whether we are heading for another problem.
I also don't see things backsliding into lockdown unless ICUs start to fill up but that doesn't seem like an elegant solution since ICU admissions and death are lagging indicators.
Not really. In the early stages of COVID the threshold for Intubation was set incredibly low. The hospital alliance I work with basically suggested if you went past 4 litres of oxygen by nasal prong, start thinking early intubation. For COPD/long term smokers/people with bad hearts, that's really a low threshold for even healthy individuals wiht a bad pneumonia. Now we are doing a lot more to prevent intubation with patients so that has made a big transition point for how quickly we need to access ICU beds for even sick COVID patients.
We also just don't have a bed crisis in the hospitals at this point in time. If we ended up with a massive influx of cases, we potentially would have to reconsider going back to more extreme precautions, but at this point in time we are dealing with 70+ percent of our cases coming from the GTA and those numbers are steadily in the 3-400 range a day. That just isn't the volume to justify keeping everything closed.
We have also increased our ventilator access so should things actually get worse we have more bed availability than we did at the onset of the COVID pandemic so we have more wiggle room to handle an influx of cases.
Categories of who is getting infected still play a big role as well. Our largest death populations have come from the nursing homes. Deaths have obviously happened in other populations but the elderly have been our biggest risk population. Expanding people back to work and out in the day to day while keeping restricted visiting in the homes isn't likely to cause the same problem as just outright opening everything up into a free for all.
Post by: Highlander on May 28, 2020, 05:34:10 PM
Post by: Nik on May 28, 2020, 06:19:41 PM
I really worry that what we see in Minnesota and other US cities as well as in the UK is a sign of things to come. The financial and emotional stresses people are under are going to lead to serious issues if Governments don't realize that things can't be business as usual right now with regards to how people are treated.
In its way, the Trinity-Bellwood stuff is a similar symptom of it. I don't think it makes those park-goers any less stupid but we had a few solid weeks of Doug Ford explaining why it was ok for him to drive up to his cottage for a bit or for his Daughters to come over on Mother's day and what Governments need to realize is that while those things might not be big deals in and of themselves, they really weaken the message of all of us having to make the same sacrifices. It can't be one set of rules for the politically connected and another for everyone else.
Post by: Arn on May 28, 2020, 07:49:00 PM
Post by: Bender on May 28, 2020, 08:16:27 PM
I understand that part of flattening the curve etc. etc. but there are areas that have been able to suppress to a great degree and therefore have few if any deaths. I think it depends to what extent you believe we can thread the needle with high mitigation while still revving up the economy. I think we (GTA/Ontario) can do better than just saying well, 400 cases a day is just the way it is.Are they not to some extent one and the same? To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?
Yes and no. Obviously, preventing them from happening now is what helps to limit ICU admissions, but, in order to achieve herd immunity (absent a vaccine, at least), it's really just a matter of spreading the cases without lowering the end total of infections. So, instead of 100,000 cases in a 2 month period, it's 100,000 cases in a 6 month period - or whatever the real numbers and timelines end up being. Same number of people getting sick, just less of them being sick at the same time.
Post by: Bender on May 28, 2020, 08:22:33 PM
Right, obviously everything's a matter of degrees. I just wonder to what extent things get loosened are we able to be agile enough to dial things back if required or does it just start to rip and we lose some level of control we once had. It doesn't sound like reporting is all that good in Ontario....Are they not to some extent one and the same? To prevent ICU admissions wouldn't you also have to prevent cases in the first place?As long as the hospitals don't get swamped with new admissions I think they will just ride it out.
This is one of the things that is getting left out of the discussion too much. Shutting things down wasn't about preventing COVID cases. It was from preventing overrun ICUs. Having an uptick in cases if they are primarily mild isn't going to be the limiting factor on whether things get shut back down. Besides we are still on the early wave of seeing if opening things back up causes a problem. It's going to be next weekend and the week after that that will be a much better indicator of whether we are heading for another problem.
I also don't see things backsliding into lockdown unless ICUs start to fill up but that doesn't seem like an elegant solution since ICU admissions and death are lagging indicators.
Not really. In the early stages of COVID the threshold for Intubation was set incredibly low. The hospital alliance I work with basically suggested if you went past 4 litres of oxygen by nasal prong, start thinking early intubation. For COPD/long term smokers/people with bad hearts, that's really a low threshold for even healthy individuals wiht a bad pneumonia. Now we are doing a lot more to prevent intubation with patients so that has made a big transition point for how quickly we need to access ICU beds for even sick COVID patients.
We also just don't have a bed crisis in the hospitals at this point in time. If we ended up with a massive influx of cases, we potentially would have to reconsider going back to more extreme precautions, but at this point in time we are dealing with 70+ percent of our cases coming from the GTA and those numbers are steadily in the 3-400 range a day. That just isn't the volume to justify keeping everything closed.
We have also increased our ventilator access so should things actually get worse we have more bed availability than we did at the onset of the COVID pandemic so we have more wiggle room to handle an influx of cases.
Categories of who is getting infected still play a big role as well. Our largest death populations have come from the nursing homes. Deaths have obviously happened in other populations but the elderly have been our biggest risk population. Expanding people back to work and out in the day to day while keeping restricted visiting in the homes isn't likely to cause the same problem as just outright opening everything up into a free for all.
I'm also just speaking out loud as someone with a predisposition to bronchitis from bad colds so maybe I'm a bit more on edge than others.
Post by: Bender on May 28, 2020, 08:25:31 PM
LOL!! He's one of many in regards to good local/Canadian commentary and analysis on things right now.Haha what did I mention now? I have no recollection of this, but thanks for the share!
My mistake, it was Bender. In my defense you both have 6 letters in your name and I very rarely listen to people who aren't me.
Post by: Bender on May 28, 2020, 08:25:54 PM
In Northern Ireland we posted our first day without a death reocorded yesterday (back up to 2 today) but our last few days have been 1,1,1,8,2,0,2 So that little zero was a nice light at the end of the tunnelCheers!!
Post by: princedpw on May 29, 2020, 12:23:16 PM
A very good podcast with an interview with Dr. David Fisman, who I think Herman mentioned earlier, about why Ontario isn't handling the crisis very well:
https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/ (https://thebigstorypodcast.ca/2020/05/27/what-is-ontario-doing-wrong-on-covid-19/)
Haha what did I mention now? I have no recollection of this, but thanks for the share!
We're several months past it now, but there was a huge window of opportunity for North America to handle this properly, but due to leadership being what it is here...
A) Asian countries were raising the alarm bells back in October. Most of them knew SARS up close and personal and put measures in place (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e6Uikbh3vA) after they recovered to ensure this didn't catch them off guard again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAaDC0lv13s); i.e. lots of examples of procedure and messaging and equipment; western nations seemingly scoffed from afar and said, that wouldn't happen here.
B) It did. Italy, Spain, UK, all got thrashed thoroughly for taking it chill, and their subsequent warnings to the rest of the world went mostly unheeded. Those Twitter threads from front-line workers were chilling and heart-breaking.
C) It was WINTER when the virus started to appear more serious here. If our governments took the warnings seriously: manufacturing should have been leveraged immediately towards masks, tests, care facilities, ventilators (a bit late for that); distancing measures should have been spun up when it was cold and snowy anyway instead of... March Break.
Is there significant economic impact to shutting things down so early? Um yes, but you know what else is a significant economic impact? Letting things drag out over 2-3 years with periodic shutdowns because either people are buttholes and selfish, or there are no social infrastructures for supporting/sheltering all citizens in times of need.
What's the state of testing and contact tracing in Ontario/Canada more broadly at the moment? Every intelligent person I've heard has suggested that the key to sustained reopening is not just saying "we're open" but having massive testing infrastructure to continuously test in risky places (healthcare, elderly care, meat packing, perhaps other essential services, for instance), test at immigration sites, ensure anyone who wants a test can get one at any time, and also to do randomized testing throughout the population.
Has Canada articulated a plan for achieving that state of affairs? What has to be done to get there? If we can get to that point, then having hockey (without fans), for example, seems like a reasonable thing to do. It's another thing that would require a lot of testing but if we can test all of the above then the tests committed to (and paid for by) hockey wouldn't be taking resources away from other essential uses.
Post by: Highlander on May 29, 2020, 01:12:35 PM
That daily tot of Whiskey must be working.In Northern Ireland we posted our first day without a death reocorded yesterday (back up to 2 today) but our last few days have been 1,1,1,8,2,0,2 So that little zero was a nice light at the end of the tunnelCheers!!
Post by: Highlander on June 11, 2020, 05:25:59 PM
https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/major-medical-journal-retracts-policy-changing-hydroxychloroquine-study-paper/
strange how one paper restricted the wide spread clinical testing of this drug.
Post by: Highlander on June 14, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/is-covid-19-caused-by-a-genetically-modified-frankenvirus/
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 14, 2020, 06:32:03 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 14, 2020, 07:38:00 PM
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 14, 2020, 09:27:13 PM
Yeah, we've been through this before. Conspiracy theories from crackpot websites are a no-no.I mean, the best I could tell it was refuting conspiracy theories, but seriously, they don't need refuting, they're self-refuting.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 15, 2020, 09:06:38 AM
Yeah, we've been through this before. Conspiracy theories from crackpot websites are a no-no.I mean, the best I could tell it was refuting conspiracy theories, but seriously, they don't need refuting, they're self-refuting.
Yeah, that's fair. I think I just took particular issue with the line right off the bat characterizing these conspiracy theories as "seemingly credible claim(s)".
Also, it's a UFO/paranormal website so I question how much value their reporting has when it comes to Covid-19 when there's like hundreds of more legitimate news sources one could be looking at, but whatever floats their boat I guess.
Post by: Highlander on June 15, 2020, 06:15:45 PM
However when I read the article I seemed to be reading was debunking the conspiracy theory that this came from a laboratory. To me it seemed to be saying that this was a natural virus transmitted by Bats (even though the title could lead to one misunderstanding), not made by humans.
I don't subscribe or believe in conspiracy theories at all, that is why I posted.
Post by: Bender on June 15, 2020, 08:47:39 PM
This Week in Virology http://traffic.libsyn.com/twiv/TWiV626.mp3?dest-id=25528
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 16, 2020, 08:46:50 AM
New Zealand confirms two new cases of Covid-19 after 24 days without infections – and says both came from UK https://t.co/GEESURmHlJ
— The Independent (@Independent) June 16, 2020
New Zealand gets cases of COVID-19 to zero. They're good for 3+ weeks. Two people were granted a "compassionate exemption" to travel to Britain to visit a dying grandparent and they both return and test positive.
It's crazy how militant a country has to be even when they "beat" the virus. It sounds like these two people were properly quarantined right when they returned to New Zealand so hopefully this doesn't cause further cases.
Post by: Nik on June 16, 2020, 09:13:58 AM
For what it's worth I think you have the details there a little backwards. The two cases they have are people from the UK who came to New Zealand. As per government policy they were supposed to stay in quarantine in a hotel for two weeks but were granted the compassionate exemption to leave early to visit the relative.
It sounds like this will be fixed just by eliminating the compassionate exemption and requiring all outside visitors to quarantine for 2 weeks and getting two separate negative test results.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 16, 2020, 09:35:58 AM
For what it's worth I think you have the details there a little backwards. The two cases they have are people from the UK who came to New Zealand. As per government policy they were supposed to stay in quarantine in a hotel for two weeks but were granted the compassionate exemption to leave early to visit the relative.
It sounds like this will be fixed just by eliminating the compassionate exemption and requiring all outside visitors to quarantine for 2 weeks and getting two separate negative test results.
Ah you're right, I read that completely backwards for whatever reason.
Post by: Bullfrog on June 16, 2020, 09:49:52 AM
This might be a bit geeky but anyone who likes listening to a roundtable of virologists talk about all kinds of viruses (and obviously skewed heavily towards COVID findings) really ought to tune into this podcast. I can't listen to much filtered through political/news media. I'd much rather leave it to the people who make studying viruses and coming up with treatments their lifes work.
This Week in Virology http://traffic.libsyn.com/twiv/TWiV626.mp3?dest-id=25528
I haven't listened to your link yet, but another one (probably more light-hearted) is the COVID-19 series on "This Podcast Will Kill You." Such a fun podcast to listen (given the topic of deadly diseases)
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 16, 2020, 01:16:59 PM
I feel like there's a movie that warned against tossing money in the face of nature and science, while demonstrating the inevitability of chaos in closed systems. https://t.co/Tag3sDPKwk
— Pablo Gallaga (@Pabably) June 16, 2020
Post by: Nik on June 16, 2020, 01:22:22 PM
I'm sort of torn on TV/movie production. On the one hand, obviously it's dangerous and a bad idea and everything but there is this small part of me that thinks that one of the only reasons why things have gone as relatively calmly as they have with the lockdown is because new stuff was still coming out so for a week people could talk about Michael Jordan or Queer Eye or whatever.
What a lockdown might look like when no new stuff is coming out and maybe we still don't have sports is anyone's guess. I don't mean this in a frivolous way either, I really worry about people's mental health if they have no outlets like that.
Post by: Highlander on June 16, 2020, 02:11:49 PM
We have been open in BC for at least a month or more now without significant rises in Covid cases. I certainly hope at least some of the outlying areas outside of T.O. with low Covid rates are allowed to re-open with proper social distancing of course.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 16, 2020, 02:24:40 PM
We have been open in BC for at least a month or more now without significant rises in Covid cases. I certainly hope at least some of the outlying areas outside of T.O. with low Covid rates are allowed to re-open with proper social distancing of course.
Most on Ontario entered phase/stage 2 of the re-opening on Friday. That includes things like restaurants (should note, patios only), malls, hair salons, ect.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 16, 2020, 02:55:32 PM
Quote from: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/two-hairstylists-who-had-coronavirus-saw-140-clients-no-new-infections-have-been-linked-to-the-salon-officials-say-1.4979559
Both stylists worked at the same Great Clips location in Springfield. The clients and the stylists all wore face coverings, and the salon had set up other measures such as social distancing of chairs and staggered appointments, the Springfield-Greene County Health Department said this week.
Moral of the story is as things start opening up always remember to wear a mask when going to stores/businesses, especially indoors.
Post by: Highlander on June 16, 2020, 03:23:16 PM
I just spoke to a good friend in Miami and he said they are having such a high spike there they are thinking about closing some things down again. He thinks the real problem is that people there think that a switch was thrown and everyone are back to acting like idiots as usual, shoulder to shoulder with no masks in bars etc.
Here in BC there is an enforced SD in bars/resto's which is keeping people apart and relatively safe.
Post by: L K on June 17, 2020, 03:50:21 PM
I think, at least for the time being that masks should be compulsory while inside any inside business space or transportation, they are proving that this one precaution can save transmission rates by huge percentages.
I just spoke to a good friend in Miami and he said they are having such a high spike there they are thinking about closing some things down again. He thinks the real problem is that people there think that a switch was thrown and everyone are back to acting like idiots as usual, shoulder to shoulder with no masks in bars etc.
Here in BC there is an enforced SD in bars/resto's which is keeping people apart and relatively safe.
That's always going to be the issue. Opening things up is confused for "go back to normal". We aren't back to normal. You need to take precautions. Do you need to wear a mask in your house, backyard or even walking your dog...certainly not for the first two, most likely not for the last one unless you walk your dog in a massively busy area where you are constantly bumping into people.
Should you be wearing a mask in public spaces and stores. Absolutely.
The number of "my oxygen goes down with a mask" nonsense drabble I'm hearing is getting insulting.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on June 17, 2020, 04:25:39 PM
I think, at least for the time being that masks should be compulsory while inside any inside business space or transportation, they are proving that this one precaution can save transmission rates by huge percentages.
I just spoke to a good friend in Miami and he said they are having such a high spike there they are thinking about closing some things down again. He thinks the real problem is that people there think that a switch was thrown and everyone are back to acting like idiots as usual, shoulder to shoulder with no masks in bars etc.
Here in BC there is an enforced SD in bars/resto's which is keeping people apart and relatively safe.
That's always going to be the issue. Opening things up is confused for "go back to normal". We aren't back to normal. You need to take precautions. Do you need to wear a mask in your house, backyard or even walking your dog...certainly not for the first two, most likely not for the last one unless you walk your dog in a massively busy area where you are constantly bumping into people.
Should you be wearing a mask in public spaces and stores. Absolutely.
The number of "my oxygen goes down with a mask" nonsense drabble I'm hearing is getting insulting.
Want to hear/watch something fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FccYqcAL4FM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FccYqcAL4FM)
Post by: Bender on June 17, 2020, 11:24:11 PM
It was called Billy and the Cloneasaurus.I feel like there's a movie that warned against tossing money in the face of nature and science, while demonstrating the inevitability of chaos in closed systems. https://t.co/Tag3sDPKwk
— Pablo Gallaga (@Pabably) June 16, 2020
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 17, 2020, 11:26:52 PM
Thank you, come again.It was called Billy and the Cloneasaurus.I feel like there's a movie that warned against tossing money in the face of nature and science, while demonstrating the inevitability of chaos in closed systems. https://t.co/Tag3sDPKwk
— Pablo Gallaga (@Pabably) June 16, 2020
Post by: Bender on June 17, 2020, 11:27:25 PM
There's a great resto out in Thornbury (don't want to say the name), great spot and very good food. Their pizza is at another level.. A good friend was out picking up an order the other night and the owner said that another 30 days of lockdown and she was going out of business.Im honestly highly curious what businesses would've done during a deep, prolonged recession. Like during a non-COVID recession if 50% capacity lasted for 2yrs or whatever. Restos run on the thinnest of margins as it is.
We have been open in BC for at least a month or more now without significant rises in Covid cases. I certainly hope at least some of the outlying areas outside of T.O. with low Covid rates are allowed to re-open with proper social distancing of course.
Post by: Bender on June 17, 2020, 11:30:35 PM
It's so comical. How do they think docs/nurses/hygenists & all other people who work with/near hazardous particles do it? Especially people with strenuous & laborious physical labour jobs that require masking? Like grow the hell up.I think, at least for the time being that masks should be compulsory while inside any inside business space or transportation, they are proving that this one precaution can save transmission rates by huge percentages.
I just spoke to a good friend in Miami and he said they are having such a high spike there they are thinking about closing some things down again. He thinks the real problem is that people there think that a switch was thrown and everyone are back to acting like idiots as usual, shoulder to shoulder with no masks in bars etc.
Here in BC there is an enforced SD in bars/resto's which is keeping people apart and relatively safe.
That's always going to be the issue. Opening things up is confused for "go back to normal". We aren't back to normal. You need to take precautions. Do you need to wear a mask in your house, backyard or even walking your dog...certainly not for the first two, most likely not for the last one unless you walk your dog in a massively busy area where you are constantly bumping into people.
Should you be wearing a mask in public spaces and stores. Absolutely.
The number of "my oxygen goes down with a mask" nonsense drabble I'm hearing is getting insulting.
Post by: L K on June 18, 2020, 10:42:36 AM
It's so comical. How do they think docs/nurses/hygenists & all other people who work with/near hazardous particles do it? Especially people with strenuous & laborious physical labour jobs that require masking? Like grow the hell up.I think, at least for the time being that masks should be compulsory while inside any inside business space or transportation, they are proving that this one precaution can save transmission rates by huge percentages.
I just spoke to a good friend in Miami and he said they are having such a high spike there they are thinking about closing some things down again. He thinks the real problem is that people there think that a switch was thrown and everyone are back to acting like idiots as usual, shoulder to shoulder with no masks in bars etc.
Here in BC there is an enforced SD in bars/resto's which is keeping people apart and relatively safe.
That's always going to be the issue. Opening things up is confused for "go back to normal". We aren't back to normal. You need to take precautions. Do you need to wear a mask in your house, backyard or even walking your dog...certainly not for the first two, most likely not for the last one unless you walk your dog in a massively busy area where you are constantly bumping into people.
Should you be wearing a mask in public spaces and stores. Absolutely.
The number of "my oxygen goes down with a mask" nonsense drabble I'm hearing is getting insulting.
And just to be clear, there are studies that do suggest your SpO2 can go down with prolonged mask use. There have been a few studies looking at surgeons in the OR and O2 sats can go down slightly with prolonged surgeries. But we are talking about taking an SpO2 of 97% on room air and dropping it to 96. It's clinically irrelevant.
There are absolutely persons with profound anxieties or advanced COPD who will struggle more with a mask. We also aren't asking those people to wear a mask for 24 hours on end. Wearing a mask for an hour while you do groceries...while you have alternatives like order ahead, delivery or having a friend/family member/neighbour get them for you, is just absurd.
It also doesn't help that the biggest proponents of 'no mask' are the "Sovereign Citizen" whackjobs.
Post by: Highlander on June 18, 2020, 11:46:42 AM
I have a copyright on the use of the word; "Resto's", please cease and desist from using it....it's mine! ;)There's a great resto out in Thornbury (don't want to say the name), great spot and very good food. Their pizza is at another level.. A good friend was out picking up an order the other night and the owner said that another 30 days of lockdown and she was going out of business.Im honestly highly curious what businesses would've done during a deep, prolonged recession. Like during a non-COVID recession if 50% capacity lasted for 2yrs or whatever. Restos run on the thinnest of margins as it is.
We have been open in BC for at least a month or more now without significant rises in Covid cases. I certainly hope at least some of the outlying areas outside of T.O. with low Covid rates are allowed to re-open with proper social distancing of course.
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 25, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/25/coronavirus-live-updates-us/
"Robert Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, estimated Thursday that for every confirmed coronavirus case, there are possibly 10 more that are undiagnosed. He also estimated that 92 to 95 percent of the U.S. population is still susceptible to the virus, and said that young people are driving the recent surge in cases in parts of the South and West."
Post by: Highlander on June 25, 2020, 05:51:44 PM
If any one can be of assistance in advice on proper channels I would appreciate it. I know LK and several others here are working in the medical field.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Post by: Frycer14 on June 25, 2020, 06:34:19 PM
Post by: Nik on June 25, 2020, 07:24:01 PM
My advice is to stop treating the board like it's craigslist.
Post by: Highlander on June 25, 2020, 07:26:05 PM
I predict great success for a biotech company who's business plan to address regulatory frameworks is by asking for help on hockey boards.
I predict great success for a biotech company who's business plan to address regulatory frameworks is by asking for help on hockey boards.Thanks for your usual amount of condensation and snarkiness, must be taking some lessons from Nik. I virtually know no on in Canada, I spent a lot of years out of here. This is a US concern so they are not interested in Canada. I am. LK and others seem to have some knowledge of this system and may be of assistance in a channel or contact. In my life I have learned to turn over every stone. You are making assumptions that the President of some large corp may lurk on this site. You just don't know, do you?
Post by: Highlander on June 25, 2020, 07:30:25 PM
I don't want or need your frikken advice. We should be more civil on this board, are we not hear to try and assist each other? I would gladly help any of you. By the way this is non hockey chatter.
My advice is to stop treating the board like it's craigslist.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 26, 2020, 11:02:55 AM
On the flip side Ontario announced just 111 cases, the lowest number in over 3 months.
Post by: herman on June 26, 2020, 11:26:58 AM
During a public meeting about a mask mandate in Palm Beach County, Florida, citizens spewed nonsense about face coverings that are proven to slow the spread of COVID-19. pic.twitter.com/PKsOGrTEez
— HuffPost (@HuffPost) June 25, 2020
Post by: Frank E on June 26, 2020, 11:32:27 AM
Post by: Nik on June 26, 2020, 11:47:18 AM
Ontario's bounced around a lot this week from over 200 to today's pretty encouraging 111(and with 30k+ tests done as well).
I just hope people remember that this is a result of diligence and needs to be kept up. Realistically, being in as close proximity to the States as we are, we're never going to get to be as confident as New Zealand or somewhere like that and will need to be vigilant until a vaccine or treatment is found.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 26, 2020, 11:51:44 AM
Ontario's bounced around a lot this week from over 200 to today's pretty encouraging 111(and with 30k+ tests done as well).
I wanted to note, someone who has been tracking this stuff (@imgrund) thinks this might be another case of some data that wasn't added quickly enough to Ontario's numbers. This happened the last time we had a pretty drastic decrease too. Apparently the individual Public Health Units are reporting a total of 179 case.
Post by: Frank E on June 26, 2020, 11:54:38 AM
Ontario's bounced around a lot this week from over 200 to today's pretty encouraging 111(and with 30k+ tests done as well).
I wanted to note, someone who has been tracking this stuff (@imgrund) thinks this might be another case of some data that wasn't added quickly enough to Ontario's numbers. This happened the last time we had a pretty drastic decrease too. Apparently the individual Public Health Units are reporting a total of 179 case.
You cannot escape God, Carlton.
Post by: Nik on June 26, 2020, 12:03:45 PM
Ontario's bounced around a lot this week from over 200 to today's pretty encouraging 111(and with 30k+ tests done as well).
I wanted to note, someone who has been tracking this stuff (@imgrund) thinks this might be another case of some data that wasn't added quickly enough to Ontario's numbers. This happened the last time we had a pretty drastic decrease too. Apparently the individual Public Health Units are reporting a total of 179 case.
That makes sense. A pretty consistent thing you hear listening to smart people on this is that our public health units are pretty disorganized and not communicating as well with a central authority as they should.
Post by: bustaheims on June 26, 2020, 12:13:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQU4nktphko
Post by: Frycer14 on June 26, 2020, 03:23:06 PM
Florida is going to get us all killed. It's the stupidest state in the union.
“I had a long talk with President Xi two nights ago,” Trump said. “He feels very confident. He feels that again, as I mentioned, by April or during the month of April, the heat generally speaking kills this kind of virus."
I guess 32 degrees in Florida not hot enough.
Post by: Frycer14 on June 26, 2020, 03:33:55 PM
That makes sense. A pretty consistent thing you hear listening to smart people on this is that our public health units are pretty disorganized and not communicating as well with a central authority as they should.
What I find most troublesome is that some of the issues with communication have given more ammunition to conspiracy and anti vax groups. Public health has had difficulty at times coming off as a trusted authority, and that's being exploited.
Post by: Bender on June 26, 2020, 07:38:21 PM
At some point you know the govt is going to be pressured to open the border. It's super unlikely they get herd immunity before that time imo. I don't know why they don't either push harder for masks. They need to push a campaign to really win over people. The PR job they're doing on making sure people take reasonable precautions is pretty bad imo. Yesterday with patios open my local pub didn't bother to adjust table placement to increase space. It's ridiculous. I have a hard time thinking that in 4 weeks from now that this momentum will continue, especially with an estimated Rt above 1 for Ontario right now.
Ontario's bounced around a lot this week from over 200 to today's pretty encouraging 111(and with 30k+ tests done as well).
I just hope people remember that this is a result of diligence and needs to be kept up. Realistically, being in as close proximity to the States as we are, we're never going to get to be as confident as New Zealand or somewhere like that and will need to be vigilant until a vaccine or treatment is found.
Post by: Nik on June 26, 2020, 09:11:25 PM
Luckily the border is a federal decision.
Post by: herman on June 30, 2020, 02:17:22 PM
A quote from Rand Paul at the Senate coronavirus hearing: "We shouldn't presume that a group of experts somehow knows what's best for everyone."
— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) June 30, 2020
Huh, there is a term (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal_to_no_authority) for this.
Post by: Bender on July 07, 2020, 01:57:57 PM
You knew Trump's lapdog was going to get hit sooner or later.
Post by: Deebo on July 16, 2020, 06:33:35 PM
It's all fake until it hits home.
Post by: Bender on July 16, 2020, 07:13:05 PM
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/507663-chuck-woolery-deletes-twitter-account-after-announcing-his-son-has-coronavirusHow does this guy have 83M followers? I've never heard of this guy.
It's all fake until it hits home.
Post by: Bender on July 16, 2020, 07:19:31 PM
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 16, 2020, 08:34:26 PM
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/507663-chuck-woolery-deletes-twitter-account-after-announcing-his-son-has-coronavirusHow does this guy have 83M followers? I've never heard of this guy.
It's all fake until it hits home.
The line in that article was referring to Trump's 83 million followers.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 16, 2020, 08:43:00 PM
A friend of mine is one of the people who contracted COVID in Montreal after a person who was positive went to a bar. Ugh. Please, everyone, if you do go to a bar remember to keep your distance and stay outside. But really, don't go to a bar. Help out by ordering take out and drinks if you want. Ugh. This is a tough day.
Ontario might be heading to stage 3, but I'll be sticking around in stage 2 for probably the rest of the year. The idea of bars, indoor dining, theatres, or gyms just seems crazy to me still. Cases are going right back up again in both Alberta and Quebec after those all re-opened.
Post by: Bender on July 17, 2020, 12:36:34 AM
I mean, it seems pretty obvious that that's what was going to happen. We don't have to reinvent the wheel, why does it seem like each province is going through COVID for the first time worldwide? We have enough data to know what's safe and what isn't and yet we're still pushing to open things that are unsafe.A friend of mine is one of the people who contracted COVID in Montreal after a person who was positive went to a bar. Ugh. Please, everyone, if you do go to a bar remember to keep your distance and stay outside. But really, don't go to a bar. Help out by ordering take out and drinks if you want. Ugh. This is a tough day.
Ontario might be heading to stage 3, but I'll be sticking around in stage 2 for probably the rest of the year. The idea of bars, indoor dining, theatres, or gyms just seems crazy to me still. Cases are going right back up again in both Alberta and Quebec after those all re-opened.
Post by: L K on July 17, 2020, 08:08:04 AM
Out to get garbage tags from the gas station only to find a 50+ year old guy screaming about how he doesn't need an "expletives inserted here" mask because this is a load of "expletives" bull poop.
It's all ok folks. Baseball gets to be played in Toronto!
Post by: Highlander on July 17, 2020, 11:56:31 AM
Bars etc been open in BC since early June, tables and chairs apart, social distancing being observed big time, plexi between booths, people constantly sanitizing, so we have been out several times. My son is a Chef at a top local course, doing way more volume than they expected. No cases in the kitchen (which would close things down) and little to no increase in cases in the region.A friend of mine is one of the people who contracted COVID in Montreal after a person who was positive went to a bar. Ugh. Please, everyone, if you do go to a bar remember to keep your distance and stay outside. But really, don't go to a bar. Help out by ordering take out and drinks if you want. Ugh. This is a tough day.
Ontario might be heading to stage 3, but I'll be sticking around in stage 2 for probably the rest of the year. The idea of bars, indoor dining, theatres, or gyms just seems crazy to me still. Cases are going right back up again in both Alberta and Quebec after those all re-opened.
It seems in the bigger centres, people want to get to know other people and do the chat up stuff. This kind of behaviour is not social distancing and in your face with strangers meetings.
I had some friends in AZ go out to dinner the other night. The resto was owned by a guy from Toronto of all places. No social distancing on the patio at all, crammed in like sardines, so they opted to go inside where no one was sitting in order to eat their meal.
In other breaking news, UK sporting events will open to the public on October 5th.
Post by: Peter D. on July 17, 2020, 12:47:10 PM
Ontario might be heading to stage 3, but I'll be sticking around in stage 2 for probably the rest of the year. The idea of bars, indoor dining, theatres, or gyms just seems crazy to me still. Cases are going right back up again in both Alberta and Quebec after those all re-opened.
Stage 2 opened what, just over a month ago? The numbers are trending really well in the right direction, but this seems hasty.
Seems like the province has things under control, and people view it as a free-for-all again. I'm not comfortable, for instance, taking my kids to dine in a restaurant, and I sure as heck find the experience to be extremely lessened seeing the wait staff wearing masks.
Also got word from our ball hockey team organizer that there is a weekend tournament at the end of August. Yeah, not too fond of playing a physical sport with a bunch of guys who don't know how to contain themselves, not to mention being shacked up in a hotel for the weekend with a bunch of those same guys from different regions of the province.
Post by: Bender on July 17, 2020, 05:42:19 PM
With vaccines on the way in 6-12 months I honestly don't see a reason to be hasty in the short term, that's for sure.Ontario might be heading to stage 3, but I'll be sticking around in stage 2 for probably the rest of the year. The idea of bars, indoor dining, theatres, or gyms just seems crazy to me still. Cases are going right back up again in both Alberta and Quebec after those all re-opened.
Stage 2 opened what, just over a month ago? The numbers are trending really well in the right direction, but this seems hasty.
Seems like the province has things under control, and people view it as a free-for-all again. I'm not comfortable, for instance, taking my kids to dine in a restaurant, and I sure as heck find the experience to be extremely lessened seeing the wait staff wearing masks.
Also got word from our ball hockey team organizer that there is a weekend tournament at the end of August. Yeah, not too fond of playing a physical sport with a bunch of guys who don't know how to contain themselves, not to mention being shacked up in a hotel for the weekend with a bunch of those same guys from different regions of the province.
Post by: herman on July 20, 2020, 10:53:03 AM
Gov. Mike Parson: “These kids have got to get back to school.... And if they do get COVID-19, which they will — and they will when they go to school — they’re not going to the hospitals.... They’re going to go home and they’re going to get over it.” https://t.co/yEtHbYf3sZ pic.twitter.com/SzoieUGPOh
— St. Louis Post-Dispatch (@stltoday) July 20, 2020
Post by: L K on July 20, 2020, 11:14:04 AM
Gov. Mike Parson: “These kids have got to get back to school.... And if they do get COVID-19, which they will — and they will when they go to school — they’re not going to the hospitals.... They’re going to go home and they’re going to get over it.” https://t.co/yEtHbYf3sZ pic.twitter.com/SzoieUGPOh
— St. Louis Post-Dispatch (@stltoday) July 20, 2020
The world will be a better place when this generation dies off from the political world.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 20, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
Post by: herman on July 20, 2020, 11:48:28 AM
It's the same attitude that political wing has for less acute issues if there continues to be money to be had when only the non-rich suffer (e.g. climate change, universal health care, gun control).
Post by: bustaheims on July 20, 2020, 12:05:52 PM
I get that there's a very good case that kids have to go back to school in the fall... but I don't know why this guy would take such a dick-ish tone about it. Can you not at least pretend you care?
Yeah. The social and psychological impact of the measures we've taken to fight the virus have definitely not been helpful to school-aged children - especially considering they're not likely mature enough or aware enough to identify them and develop strategies to cope - and getting them back to school will be helpful in minimizing those impacts. But, it has to be done in a safe and sustainable way. Otherwise, all that we're doing is increasing the risk to those children, their extended and immediate families, their teachers and their families, etc., which will only worsen the social and psychological impacts on the children.
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 20, 2020, 09:40:13 PM
I've seen a lot of people wringing their hands about COVID antibodies dropping off after 3 months, screeching things like "immunity doesn't last". @DKThomp called up the experts, and explains why you shouldn't be wringing your hands and screeching.https://t.co/RyeiKu7Zsb
— Noah Smith 🐇 (@Noahpinion) July 20, 2020
Post by: Nik on July 21, 2020, 12:24:37 PM
I don't know if there's a good answer here between the need to get back to some semblance of normalcy vs. trying to contain the outbreaks but I think pretending that we can avoid it simply by encouraging people to be responsible is probably untrue.
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 21, 2020, 01:39:55 PM
"Don't go to a party, simple," Premier Doug Ford said just now, offering a message to young people across the province.
— Lauren Pelley (@LaurenPelley) July 21, 2020
"This is no time for parties," echoed Mississauga mayor Bonnie Crombie.
The commands come amid more reopenings across much of Ontario, including indoor bars.
Don't go to a party!!!! unless it's in a bar
Post by: Nik on July 21, 2020, 02:04:41 PM
It's ok, necessary even, that people go to work and be productive. And also shop as much as they can. Got to keep capitalism humming. But partying? No sir. From your cot to your cubicle to the spend-o-mart and repeat cycle. It's the approved drone lifestyle so that the queen never runs out of royal jelly.
Post by: Bender on July 21, 2020, 10:13:59 PM
"Don't go to a party, simple," Premier Doug Ford said just now, offering a message to young people across the province.
— Lauren Pelley (@LaurenPelley) July 21, 2020
"This is no time for parties," echoed Mississauga mayor Bonnie Crombie.
The commands come amid more reopenings across much of Ontario, including indoor bars.
Don't go to a party!!!! unless it's in a bar
If they don't want people getting together why the hell did they open bars? It's so asinine to me that the suggestion is "Well, if we didn't open bars then they could be having houseparties."
People who want to have houseparties will have them regardless, but people who would otherwise go to bars...haven't been going to bars because they're closed! My friend from Montreal went to a bar literally because the government opened them and then got sick. It's such idiotic logic.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 23, 2020, 05:56:33 AM
"Don't go to a party, simple," Premier Doug Ford said just now, offering a message to young people across the province.
— Lauren Pelley (@LaurenPelley) July 21, 2020
"This is no time for parties," echoed Mississauga mayor Bonnie Crombie.
The commands come amid more reopenings across much of Ontario, including indoor bars.
Don't go to a party!!!! unless it's in a bar
If they don't want people getting together why the hell did they open bars? It's so asinine to me that the suggestion is "Well, if we didn't open bars then they could be having houseparties."
People who want to have houseparties will have them regardless, but people who would otherwise go to bars...haven't been going to bars because they're closed! My friend from Montreal went to a bar literally because the government opened them and then got sick. It's such idiotic logic.
I have no interest in eating/drinking indoors at a restaurant or bar. Ive been on a patio once shortly after stage 2 opened. It felt great. I still haven't gone back though.
The thought of being indoors at a restaurant or bar makes me very uncomfortable.
I get that they'll sell it that it's about getting people back to work, but at what cost?
Post by: Bullfrog on July 23, 2020, 09:32:23 AM
I have no interest in eating/drinking indoors at a restaurant or bar. Ive been on a patio once shortly after stage 2 opened. It felt great. I still haven't gone back though.
The thought of being indoors at a restaurant or bar makes me very uncomfortable.
I get that they'll sell it that it's about getting people back to work, but at what cost?
I more or less feel the same, but in my region there are zero known active cases. Chances are I could lick the tables and be totally fine (other than the thousands of other bacteria and viruses I'd pick up.) I'm mostly reluctant because the experience will be a pain in the butt having to wear and remove a mask several times.
My family rarely eats out; we've been getting take-out mostly to support local restaurants.
Post by: Arn on July 24, 2020, 04:55:40 AM
So we've had 5 deaths in July and a total of 120 positive tests and out testing and tracing system seems to be locating the clusters to help stop a wider spread so far.
That includes us having done things like opening up restaurants, gyms etc. and we've been playing grassroots sports for a few weeks (with various measures in place). As of this week we're allowing distanced crowds back to watch sport so we have the Irish Cup football final next week and they're aiming to have a couple of thousand spectators in the 20,000 seat stadium.
Fingers crossed for small positive steps to continue here and hopefully others can do the same
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 29, 2020, 11:57:00 AM
76 new #COVID__19 cases in #Ontario!!
— Dr. Jennifer Kwan (@jkwan_md) July 29, 2020
First time under 100 in a long time🥳
Keep up the great work everyone!😷↔️🧼🙌🏻
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 29, 2020, 12:28:02 PM
76 new #COVID__19 cases in #Ontario!!
— Dr. Jennifer Kwan (@jkwan_md) July 29, 2020
First time under 100 in a long time🥳
Keep up the great work everyone!😷↔️🧼🙌🏻
Toronto's numbers in particular are pretty insane. Just 5 new cases reported yesterday. Of course the big test is still to come with stage 3 starting there Friday.
Post by: Nik on July 29, 2020, 12:50:38 PM
76 new #COVID__19 cases in #Ontario!!
— Dr. Jennifer Kwan (@jkwan_md) July 29, 2020
First time under 100 in a long time🥳
Keep up the great work everyone!😷↔️🧼🙌🏻
Toronto's numbers in particular are pretty insane. Just 5 new cases reported yesterday. Of course the big test is still to come with stage 3 starting there Friday.
Someone better versed in these things than I am can maybe help me here but today's report from the province had the city's new cases at -13. How does that work?
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 29, 2020, 01:29:58 PM
Someone better versed in these things than I am can maybe help me here but today's report from the province had the city's new cases at -13. How does that work?
I'm not sure if you've seen the actual document where that gets recorded but it's under the header "change in cases July 28" which doesn't necessarily mean "new cases July 28". A -13 figure would be the result of previous data being cleaned up or fixed on that day. So maybe there were cases that Toronto Public Health recorded previously that ended up not actually being positive results. Or maybe there was a positive result recorded under TPH that actually belonged to Peel. Something like that.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 29, 2020, 01:34:54 PM
76 new #COVID__19 cases in #Ontario!!
— Dr. Jennifer Kwan (@jkwan_md) July 29, 2020
First time under 100 in a long time🥳
Keep up the great work everyone!😷↔️🧼🙌🏻
Toronto's numbers in particular are pretty insane. Just 5 new cases reported yesterday. Of course the big test is still to come with stage 3 starting there Friday.
Someone better versed in these things than I am can maybe help me here but today's report from the province had the city's new cases at -13. How does that work?
I read that as they had 5 cases(as stated above) but had 18 recoveries?
Post by: Bender on July 29, 2020, 01:57:36 PM
76 new #COVID__19 cases in #Ontario!!
— Dr. Jennifer Kwan (@jkwan_md) July 29, 2020
First time under 100 in a long time🥳
Keep up the great work everyone!😷↔️🧼🙌🏻
Toronto's numbers in particular are pretty insane. Just 5 new cases reported yesterday. Of course the big test is still to come with stage 3 starting there Friday.
?s=20Today's summary of #COVID19 cases in Toronto: pic.twitter.com/UcPkSbYzoX
— Toronto Public Health (@TOPublicHealth) July 28, 2020
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 29, 2020, 07:38:40 PM
I have no interest in eating/drinking indoors at a restaurant or bar. Ive been on a patio once shortly after stage 2 opened. It felt great. I still haven't gone back though.
The thought of being indoors at a restaurant or bar makes me very uncomfortable.
I get that they'll sell it that it's about getting people back to work, but at what cost?
I more or less feel the same, but in my region there are zero known active cases. Chances are I could lick the tables and be totally fine (other than the thousands of other bacteria and viruses I'd pick up.) I'm mostly reluctant because the experience will be a pain in the butt having to wear and remove a mask several times.
My family rarely eats out; we've been getting take-out mostly to support local restaurants.
We had no active cases here in Sudbury for close to a month. In the last 5 days we've had 12. 11 of them were all associated with travel or contact with someone who had been travelling. It's crazy how quickly it can work it's way back into your community.
Post by: Hobbes on July 29, 2020, 09:28:25 PM
We had that in New Brunswick. A single person who traveled out of province for only a weekend, didn't self-isolate upon return, and resulted in a community spread that ended up with about 40 new cases and 2 deaths before it was contained.I have no interest in eating/drinking indoors at a restaurant or bar. Ive been on a patio once shortly after stage 2 opened. It felt great. I still haven't gone back though.
The thought of being indoors at a restaurant or bar makes me very uncomfortable.
I get that they'll sell it that it's about getting people back to work, but at what cost?
I more or less feel the same, but in my region there are zero known active cases. Chances are I could lick the tables and be totally fine (other than the thousands of other bacteria and viruses I'd pick up.) I'm mostly reluctant because the experience will be a pain in the butt having to wear and remove a mask several times.
My family rarely eats out; we've been getting take-out mostly to support local restaurants.
We had no active cases here in Sudbury for close to a month. In the last 5 days we've had 12. 11 of them were all associated with travel or contact with someone who had been travelling. It's crazy how quickly it can work it's way back into your community.
Moral of the story: it only takes one idiot/careless person to impact the lives of an entire community and unintentionally lead to other people's deaths. Don't be that person.
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 30, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
We had that in New Brunswick. A single person who traveled out of province for only a weekend, didn't self-isolate upon return, and resulted in a community spread that ended up with about 40 new cases and 2 deaths before it was contained.I have no interest in eating/drinking indoors at a restaurant or bar. Ive been on a patio once shortly after stage 2 opened. It felt great. I still haven't gone back though.
The thought of being indoors at a restaurant or bar makes me very uncomfortable.
I get that they'll sell it that it's about getting people back to work, but at what cost?
I more or less feel the same, but in my region there are zero known active cases. Chances are I could lick the tables and be totally fine (other than the thousands of other bacteria and viruses I'd pick up.) I'm mostly reluctant because the experience will be a pain in the butt having to wear and remove a mask several times.
My family rarely eats out; we've been getting take-out mostly to support local restaurants.
We had no active cases here in Sudbury for close to a month. In the last 5 days we've had 12. 11 of them were all associated with travel or contact with someone who had been travelling. It's crazy how quickly it can work it's way back into your community.
Moral of the story: it only takes one idiot/careless person to impact the lives of an entire community and unintentionally lead to other people's deaths. Don't be that person.
Up to 22 cases in the last 5 days. That's a 33% increase of our total cases. Not all 22 appear to be coming from this one person, but it's odd that the numbers go through the roof when the one case pops up.
A large number of the cases are unknown sources.
Post by: herman on August 01, 2020, 12:29:52 AM
V.F. investigates how the White House planned for an aggressive, coordinated national COVID-19 response that could have brought the pandemic under control. But then it abandoned the plan, in favor of a shambolic 50-state response. https://t.co/P7IGcMmbdC
— VANITY FAIR (@VanityFair) July 31, 2020
Quote
Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner’s team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. “The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy,” said the expert.
Post by: Bender on August 01, 2020, 08:58:10 AM
I know they're stupid but I mean how have they all not inadvertantly killed themselves yet? Good god.V.F. investigates how the White House planned for an aggressive, coordinated national COVID-19 response that could have brought the pandemic under control. But then it abandoned the plan, in favor of a shambolic 50-state response. https://t.co/P7IGcMmbdC
— VANITY FAIR (@VanityFair) July 31, 2020QuoteMost troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner’s team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. “The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy,” said the expert.
Post by: herman on August 01, 2020, 09:43:48 AM
I know they're stupid but I mean how have they all not inadvertantly killed themselves yet? Good god.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/07/30/18/31381726-0-image-a-19_1596129547575.jpg)
You're never ready for the kind of news we are grappling with this morning. But we have no choice but to seek and find God's strength and comfort to deal... #HermanCain https://t.co/BtOgoLVqKz
— The Cain Gang (@THEHermanCain) July 30, 2020
Post by: Bender on August 01, 2020, 11:23:30 AM
Touche.I know they're stupid but I mean how have they all not inadvertantly killed themselves yet? Good god.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/07/30/18/31381726-0-image-a-19_1596129547575.jpg)You're never ready for the kind of news we are grappling with this morning. But we have no choice but to seek and find God's strength and comfort to deal... #HermanCain https://t.co/BtOgoLVqKz
— The Cain Gang (@THEHermanCain) July 30, 2020
Post by: Highlander on August 01, 2020, 12:08:30 PM
Post by: Bender on August 01, 2020, 01:04:54 PM
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public. In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.To be fair, the UK hasnt exactly been an example of well executed COVID policy or strategy.
Post by: Bullfrog on August 01, 2020, 01:23:58 PM
Just ridiculous that Masks are not legislated gear when out in public. In the UK if you go into a store etc without a mask you may be fined 100 pounds.
They were just made mandatory last week in my region for all enclosed public spaces and any outdoor spaces wear social distancing can't be maintained. I was against it at first because my region has so few cases; but now that it's been a week, it's no big deal. There's zero inconvenience.
And maybe I'm saying that from a place of privilege, but businesses have been good with providing hand sanitizer and disposal mask to those who don't have their own.
I grabbed a breakfast from McDonald's this morning. Seeing all the staff in masks made me think: after this pandemic is under control, it should remain mandatory for food-service workers to wear masks.
The government needs a means to support businesses for sick leave too. That means a broader employment standards act that mandates that people stay home when they're sick. There should be protections for everyone to stay home with paid sick days when they or immediate family are sick and require care. There should be subsidies or incentives to allow businesses to provide resources (laptops, whatever) to workers who have to stay home to care for sick children (because sick children should stay home from school!)
We need a cultural shift so that it's no longer a source of pride to say "I've never taken a day off for being sick!" (<---- someone I know), but rather it'd be a source of pride to say "I was feeling ill and decided to work from home rather than making others sick as well."
Post by: L K on August