TMLfans.ca

Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: herman on October 01, 2019, 11:21:49 AM

Title: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 11:21:49 AM
Massive changes this season
This is what our roster looked like last opening night. Bold are gone, italicized are injured:

Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Matthews-Ennis
Leivo-Kadri-Brown
Johnsson-Lindholm-Kapanen

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Ozhiganov

Andersen
Sparks
Coaches: Babcock, Hiller, Smith

To:
Kapanen-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Kerfoot-Moore
Timashov-Spezza-Gauthier
Shore

Rielly-Ceci
Muzzin-Barrie
Sandin-Marincin
Liljegren-Holl

Andersen
Hutchinson

Coaches: Babcock, McFarland, Hakstol
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 11:27:59 AM
There was no larger controversy of addition to the Leafs than Cody Ceci. Is he just the cost of doing the business of jettisoning Zaitsev's deal, or is he someone the front office targeted to rehabilitate value from? Why not both?

https://theathletic.com/1252731/2019/10/01/mirtle-can-cody-ceci-and-his-ugly-analytics-really-help-the-maple-leafs-this-season/

In Mirtle's interview with Ceci, we see someone who is cognizant of his reputation in the analytics space as well as someone who actually understands its use and limitations.

Quote
ďIíve definitely heard of Corsi,Ē he said. ďI mean, itís kind of ó if youíre playing with a shutdown line and youíre starting every shift in your end against teamsí top lines, itís tough to have a good Corsi. Youíre not going to control the puck too much in the offensive zone. Once you get out of the D zone, get down there, get a whistle, youíre usually coming off the ice."

He and fellow trademate Ben Harpur also shed some light on how the Leafs plan to play this season. As already evidenced in the preseason, the Leafs are finally going to do the thing we've been asking for since 2016:
Quote
Both Ceci and Harpur have remarked in camp how different the Leafsí system is than what they played in Ottawa. They pointed to how much more focus there is on making small passing plays and advancing the puck with control, something that wasnít always a focal point with the Senators. What defencemen are asked to do in the neutral zone is also vastly different.

[...]

ďOne of the big things Iíve noticed here is really playing more of a possession game as opposed to a run-and-gun,Ē Harpur said. ďIn Ottawa, we were more inclined to just go north with the puck no matter what, whether we were throwing it off the glass or just advancing it at all costs. Thereís more of a possession mindset here. Weíre more inclined to make those little soft plays to the middle or find a forward and getting it to them as opposed to just going north every single time.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 01, 2019, 12:12:15 PM
Petan and Agostino have cleared waivers. That's pretty surprising to me but I'll take it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 01, 2019, 01:16:06 PM
Molson Canadian Presents The Leaf: Blueprint Episode 1- Training Camp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A31KLHLVZc8&feature=youtu.be

Willy from the start, 2nd pairing is Muzzin-Barrie instead of Gardiner-Zaitsev, more forward diversity in the bottom six, the insertion of Rasmus Sandin, new special teams coaches, not to mention the core players are simply bigger and wiser. All improvements. We got a great club. Very excited.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 01:27:39 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 01, 2019, 01:29:54 PM
Massive changes this season
This is what our roster looked like last opening night. Bold are gone, italicized are injured:

Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Matthews-Ennis
Leivo-Kadri-Brown
Johnsson-Lindholm-Kapanen

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Ozhiganov

Andersen
Sparks
Coaches: Babcock, Hiller, Smith

To:
Kapanen-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Kerfoot-Moore
Timashov-Spezza-Gauthier
Shore

Rielly-Ceci
Muzzin-Barrie
Sandin-Marincin
Liljegren-Holl

Andersen
Hutchinson

Coaches: Babcock, McFarland, Hakstol

Guys, our longest tenured forwards are:

Nylander, Kapanen, and Hyman.  They were all recalled by the Leafs on Feb 29, 2016. 

As is well know, only Rielly pre-dates the tank year.  Only him and Marincin were on the roster at the start of that year. 

What a drastic change.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 01, 2019, 01:37:28 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.

The Athletic seems to be continuing their hard hitting pieces on the Leafs. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 01, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.

The Athletic seems to be continuing their hard hitting pieces on the Leafs. 

When I clicked this link just now it said there was 49 seconds left to claim a 40% off discount. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 01, 2019, 02:49:15 PM
Petan and Agostino have cleared waivers. That's pretty surprising to me but I'll take it.
Good for the call ups but are these 2 the first to come up? I actually liked Korshkov's game better then them. Give the Leafs good options though moving forward.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 03:01:12 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.

The Athletic seems to be continuing their hard hitting pieces on the Leafs.

Toronto getting the Matthews lottery pick is the only reason The Athletic made it off the ground as fast as it has.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
Petan and Agostino have cleared waivers. That's pretty surprising to me but I'll take it.
Good for the call ups but are these 2 the first to come up? I actually liked Korshkov's game better then them. Give the Leafs good options though moving forward.

Korshkov will be too expensive to call up for a generic injury. A more expensive LTIR would be his only window of opportunity.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 01, 2019, 03:04:56 PM
Petan and Agostino have cleared waivers. That's pretty surprising to me but I'll take it.
Good for the call ups but are these 2 the first to come up? I actually liked Korshkov's game better then them. Give the Leafs good options though moving forward.

Korshkov will be too expensive to call up for a generic injury. A more expensive LTIR would be his only window of opportunity.
Very true. Forgot about that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 01, 2019, 03:24:53 PM
Massive changes this season
This is what our roster looked like last opening night. Bold are gone, italicized are injured:

Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Matthews-Ennis
Leivo-Kadri-Brown
Johnsson-Lindholm-Kapanen

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Ozhiganov

Andersen
Sparks
Coaches: Babcock, Hiller, Smith

To:
Kapanen-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Kerfoot-Moore
Timashov-Spezza-Gauthier
Shore

Rielly-Ceci
Muzzin-Barrie
Sandin-Marincin
Liljegren-Holl

Andersen
Hutchinson

Coaches: Babcock, McFarland, Hakstol

Guys, our longest tenured forwards are:

Nylander, Kapanen, and Hyman.  They were all recalled by the Leafs on Feb 29, 2016. 

As is well know, only Rielly pre-dates the tank year.  Only him and Marincin were on the roster at the start of that year. 

What a drastic change.

I remember that, the youth infusion at the end of the brilliantly orchestrated tank year. Beginning of a new era.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 01, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.

The Athletic seems to be continuing their hard hitting pieces on the Leafs. 

When I clicked this link just now it said there was 49 seconds left to claim a 40% off discount. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone.

I haven't ever subscribed, but I can tell you that whenever I mistakenly click on one of their links, the 40-50% off pop up comes up...like, for years.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 01, 2019, 03:34:30 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.

The Athletic seems to be continuing their hard hitting pieces on the Leafs.

Toronto getting the Matthews lottery pick is the only reason The Athletic made it off the ground as fast as it has.

It's like the propaganda "Molson Leafs Blueprint"...or like Henny's tough first questions at press conferences: "Mike, how great is it to have so many weapons available to you on your PP?"
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 01, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
I haven't ever subscribed, but I can tell you that whenever I mistakenly click on one of their links, the 40-50% off pop up comes up...like, for years.

Yeah, I hate those sort of practices. Reminds me of how when a phone company is trying to sell you on something if you say no they'll always go "talk to their manager" (i.e. put you on hold and stare at their desk for 60 seconds) and come back with a lower price.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 03:43:30 PM
https://theathletic.com/1248016/2019/09/27/marv-the-onion-revis-island-the-gangster-what-martin-marincins-nicknames-reveal-about-him/

Martin Marincin is going to be this year's Ron Hainsey. He's the team weird uncle with all the deadpan sardonic bon mots, playing all the PK time, and looks frustrating on the ice for both fans and opponents. The key difference is now it's 3rd pair expectations.

The Athletic seems to be continuing their hard hitting pieces on the Leafs.

Toronto getting the Matthews lottery pick is the only reason The Athletic made it off the ground as fast as it has.

It's like the propaganda "Molson Leafs Blueprint"...or like Henny's tough first questions at press conferences: "Mike, how great is it to have so many weapons available to you on your PP?"

That is false. Henny doesnít ask questions, he just makes a statement and pauses for response.

PH: ďMike, you have so many weapons on the power play.Ē
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 01, 2019, 04:00:53 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/10/01/mike-babcock-on-the-growth-of-the-team-over-last-year/

Should I just quote Babcock out of context this year every time he forgets that phrasing is a thing?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 02, 2019, 08:32:51 PM

Cap shenanigans. Something to do with his bonuses too.

Petan is up in response.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 02, 2019, 10:53:14 PM

Your new favourite, everyone.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 02, 2019, 11:01:21 PM

Your new favourite, everyone.

I wonder if he's Almo's secret son.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 02, 2019, 11:14:59 PM
Mik's media scrum will henceforth be known as Talk Soup with Ilya Mikheyev.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 03, 2019, 07:06:56 AM

Your new favourite, everyone.


That's awesome. Kid has some gumption to go it alone without the translator, I'd be way too scared to attempt that in a language I'm not comfortable with
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 03, 2019, 07:32:32 AM
I like the lack of leadfooted defensemen in the lineup.  The possibility that if Sandin plays well enough that we could have Ceci/Rielly, Muzzin/Barrie, Dermott/Sandin excites me.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 03, 2019, 08:45:22 AM
I like the lack of leadfooted defensemen in the lineup.  The possibility that if Sandin plays well enough that we could have Ceci/Rielly, Muzzin/Barrie, Dermott/Sandin excites me.

They just really have to be cognizant and not let players in behind them like they did yesterday. Freddy bailed them out a few times.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 03, 2019, 08:45:39 AM
I like the lack of leadfooted defensemen in the lineup.  The possibility that if Sandin plays well enough that we could have Ceci/Rielly, Muzzin/Barrie, Dermott/Sandin excites me.

I know Babcock is trying to ease him into the NHL, but I think Sandin is ready for more than just 9 minutes in a game.  If Marincin can handle almost 14 minutes, Sandin can too.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 03, 2019, 08:46:52 AM
I know Babcock is trying to ease him into the NHL, but I think Sandin is ready for more than just 9 minutes in a game.  If Marincin can handle almost 14 minutes, Sandin can too.

Well that difference was mostly all PK time, which Marincin actually led the Leafs in.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 03, 2019, 08:49:13 AM
I know Babcock is trying to ease him into the NHL, but I think Sandin is ready for more than just 9 minutes in a game.  If Marincin can handle almost 14 minutes, Sandin can too.

Well that difference was mostly all PK time, which Marincin actually led the Leafs in.

Fair enough, but I'm on the Sandman train, this kid can handle way more and it'll take load off the big boys like Rielly/Barrie/Muzzin
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 03, 2019, 08:59:51 AM
I know Babcock is trying to ease him into the NHL, but I think Sandin is ready for more than just 9 minutes in a game.  If Marincin can handle almost 14 minutes, Sandin can too.

Well that difference was mostly all PK time, which Marincin actually led the Leafs in.

Fair enough, but I'm on the Sandman train, this kid can handle way more and it'll take load off the big boys like Rielly/Barrie/Muzzin

I was surprised that he didn't play more in the second half of the game especially when the Leafs went up 5-2.   I get the first period was a bit of a mess between the 3 powerplays where the Leafs only use 2 defensemen so that killed 6 minutes of the game where you still had Muzzin and Ceci sitting on the bench too.   But I'm not going to fuss about minutes too much in the first few games of the year.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 03, 2019, 09:08:10 AM
I know Babcock is trying to ease him into the NHL, but I think Sandin is ready for more than just 9 minutes in a game.  If Marincin can handle almost 14 minutes, Sandin can too.

Well that difference was mostly all PK time, which Marincin actually led the Leafs in.

Fair enough, but I'm on the Sandman train, this kid can handle way more and it'll take load off the big boys like Rielly/Barrie/Muzzin

I was surprised that he didn't play more in the second half of the game especially when the Leafs went up 5-2.   I get the first period was a bit of a mess between the 3 powerplays where the Leafs only use 2 defensemen so that killed 6 minutes of the game where you still had Muzzin and Ceci sitting on the bench too.   But I'm not going to fuss about minutes too much in the first few games of the year.

They also have 3 games in 4 nights, so many Babcock actually has an icetime plan to keep all the D fresher.  We'll see how much the Sandman plays Friday/Saturday
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 03, 2019, 09:24:13 AM
How soon before a certain segment of the fanbase credits the Leafs success on letting Jake Gardiner walk over the summer?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on October 03, 2019, 09:42:54 AM
How soon before a certain segment of the fanbase credits the Leafs success on letting Jake Gardiner walk over the summer?

If that happenes, it would be some time after the Leafs actually have success.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 03, 2019, 09:50:16 AM
How soon before a certain segment of the fanbase credits the Leafs success on letting Jake Gardiner walk over the summer?

I still find that whole situation that we let him go a bit depressing. But Barrie already looks like Gardiner++
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 03, 2019, 10:03:13 AM
How soon before a certain segment of the fanbase credits the Leafs success on letting Jake Gardiner walk over the summer?

Right now.  Look at our record compared to Carolina's.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 03, 2019, 11:00:51 AM

Cap shenanigans. Something to do with his bonuses too.

Petan is up in response.

This opens up $88,333 of relief pool (does not accumulate), but subsequent transactions will have this 'room' involved.

Official now
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 03, 2019, 11:02:23 AM
Just a random question: during the Leafs Blueprint, I noticed all the players getting off of an Air Canada plane. Why wouldn't an organization like MLSE (and the other franchises) have its own plane and pilots?

Edit: I mean for the players; I'm aware there's a corporate jet for MLSE.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Rob on October 03, 2019, 11:09:26 AM
Just a random question: during the Leafs Blueprint, I noticed all the players getting off of an Air Canada plane. Why wouldn't an organization like MLSE (and the other franchises) have its own plane and pilots?

Because it's expensive to let a plane sit there doing nothing most of the time.  Plus you have to maintain it, park it somewhere, and the pilots will be on your payroll full time regardless of how often they work.  You have months in the summer where the plane is not in use. 

TLDR; it's more expensive than chartering. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 03, 2019, 11:11:47 AM
Just a random question: during the Leafs Blueprint, I noticed all the players getting off of an Air Canada plane. Why wouldn't an organization like MLSE (and the other franchises) have its own plane and pilots?

Edit: I mean for the players; I'm aware there's a corporate jet for MLSE.

Doesn't really seem worth it to have. The Air Canada planes they use are special ones designed for this kind of usage I believe. It's not like they're flying in those little WestJet ones.

edit: https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/book/charters.html
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 03, 2019, 11:11:57 AM
Just a random question: during the Leafs Blueprint, I noticed all the players getting off of an Air Canada plane. Why wouldn't an organization like MLSE (and the other franchises) have its own plane and pilots?

Because it's expensive to let a plane sit there doing nothing most of the time.  Plus you have to maintain it, park it somewhere, and the pilots will be on your payroll full time regardless of how often they work.  You have months in the summer where the plane is not in use. 

TLDR; it's more expensive than chartering.

And I assume you'd have to buy a new one every so often. Probably better to leave the logistics of all that to the experts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 03, 2019, 11:12:57 AM
ya, makes sense. I work with a few companies that have their own planes, but these are like 9-seaters and the owner usually has his own pilot's license.  :)

Looks like they usually charter the Air Canada planes.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 03, 2019, 11:13:19 AM
Just a random question: during the Leafs Blueprint, I noticed all the players getting off of an Air Canada plane. Why wouldn't an organization like MLSE (and the other franchises) have its own plane and pilots?

Edit: I mean for the players; I'm aware there's a corporate jet for MLSE.

Doesn't really seem worth it to have. The Air Canada planes they use are special ones designed for this kind of usage I believe. It's not like they're flying in those little WestJet ones.

All of the Canadian NHL teams seem to use the same Charter service:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Jetz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Jetz)

See, it's Jets but with a z like the hip kids are using.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 03, 2019, 11:15:10 AM
See, it's Jets but with a z like the hip kids are using.

kewl.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 03, 2019, 11:18:46 AM
See, it's Jets but with a z like the hip kids are using.

kewl.

Sounds like a failed clothing line.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 03, 2019, 12:04:27 PM

Seems like the 4th line auditions will carry on throughout October.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 03, 2019, 12:07:04 PM

Seems like the 4th line auditions will carry on throughout October.
I thought Timashov played pretty well, only made one gaffe that I noticed.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 03, 2019, 12:22:08 PM
Considering a few things from the past day, I'm starting to suspect that Sandin is here mostly to get his feet wet and that he'll be back on the Marlies once Dermott returns.

1) Marincin, love him or hate him, played the most PK minutes on the team last night. Even if he won't lead the team in that category every single night, it still indicates that Babcock will consider him a big part of that group post-Hainsey/Zaitsev. Tough to potentially lose a guy like that on waivers.

2) Sandin is not playing on any specialty team units, and likely won't at any point of the season. Like we saw last night, that means he won't be playing a ton of minutes considering the top-4 is poised to be leaned on heavily at 5-on-5.

3) Players like Petan and Shore seem to still be very much in contention for a spot on the team even though their cap hits make it much more difficult to keep Sandin on the team once healthy.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 03, 2019, 12:24:29 PM
Correct. He's going to crush the AHL.

But he has a few more games to convince the front office otherwise.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 03, 2019, 12:24:50 PM
Considering a few things from the past day, I'm starting to suspect that Sandin is here mostly to get his feet wet and that he'll be back on the Marlies once Dermott returns.

1) Marincin, love him or hate him, played the most PK minutes on the team last night. Even if he won't lead the team in that category every single night, it still indicates that Babcock will consider him a big part of that group post-Hainsey/Zaitsev. Tough to potentially lose a guy like that on waivers.

2) Sandin is not playing on any specialty team units, and likely won't at any point of the season. Like we saw last night, that means he won't be playing a ton of minutes considering the top-4 is poised to be leaned on heavily at 5-on-5.

3) Players like Petan and Shore seem to still be very much in contention for a spot on the team even though their cap hits make it much more difficult to keep Sandin on the team once healthy.

I hate you.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 03, 2019, 12:30:26 PM

Spezza and Petan in. Timashov and Shore out.
Dermott taking reps!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 03, 2019, 01:06:14 PM

But the PK?!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 03, 2019, 01:14:08 PM

But the PK?!

Guess he wants to see a rotation and see who sticks.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 03, 2019, 01:18:00 PM
Sorry but Petan does not do it for me, I think Bourne over at the Athletic was saying the same thing the other day.  Timashov, is shifty, yet defensively responsible,has speed and a low centre of gravity.  And he can't clear waivers. 
I like Holl but he is a tweener.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 03, 2019, 01:33:05 PM
Justin time!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 04, 2019, 12:23:34 PM
Kyle Dubas was on the NHL Executive Suite podcast earlier this week to go through last season and his career progression so far.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 04, 2019, 03:31:11 PM
Just a random question: during the Leafs Blueprint, I noticed all the players getting off of an Air Canada plane. Why wouldn't an organization like MLSE (and the other franchises) have its own plane and pilots?

Edit: I mean for the players; I'm aware there's a corporate jet for MLSE.

Doesn't really seem worth it to have. The Air Canada planes they use are special ones designed for this kind of usage I believe. It's not like they're flying in those little WestJet ones.

All of the Canadian NHL teams seem to use the same Charter service:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Jetz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Jetz)

See, it's Jets but with a z like the hip kids are using.

A friend of mine's wife is a flight attendant for this service.  She did the Leafs the last two seasons.  She had some funny takes on the players last year.  Unfortunately I won't be getting any inside info anymore as she's not working the Leafs charter this year as they've moved to the west coast.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 04, 2019, 04:03:15 PM

Cap shenanigans. Something to do with his bonuses too.


Explained:
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/10/2/20896187/toronto-maple-leafs-toronto-marlies-timothy-liljegren-maple-leafs-roster-marlies-roster-cap-space

Quote
NOTE: now according to Cap Friendly, Liljegrenís AAV and bonuses have been subtracted from the LTIR pools. LTIR comes in two flavours, one pool is for performance bonuses and one for the salary portion of the total AAV.

This means there is now $400,000 in the bonuses pool and $88,333 in the salary pool available with Nic Petan on the roster. That would indicate that there is room to recall Liljegren in the future.

My understanding is that while you can use the salary pool to cover bonuses if the bonus pool runs short, you canít do the reverse, so this seems to put the maximum AAV of any call-up without bonuses at the previously assumed $863,333.

Leafs can recall any player with a cap hit up to Liljegren's and/or bonuses up to Liljegren's.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: pmrules on October 07, 2019, 10:17:01 AM
This powerplay strategy is frustrating for more than a year now. You can't have BOTH a stacked PP1 AND an approximate 50/50 split in ice time.

If you are going to stack PP1 then they need to be on the ice for >1 min at a time of the Powerplay. 

If you insist on playing time to be split 50/50 between PP1 and PP2, then you need to have PP1 with Tavares/Marner/Rielly and PP2 with Matthews/Nylander/Barrie - or some split thereof.  Nylander and Barrie are out there by themselves on PP2. 

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 07, 2019, 10:33:54 AM
This powerplay strategy is frustrating for more than a year now. You can't have BOTH a stacked PP1 AND an approximate 50/50 split in ice time.

If you are going to stack PP1 then they need to be on the ice for >1 min at a time of the Powerplay. 

If you insist on playing time to be split 50/50 between PP1 and PP2, then you need to have PP1 with Tavares/Marner/Rielly and PP2 with Matthews/Nylander/Barrie - or some split thereof.  Nylander and Barrie are out there by themselves on PP2.

Just for some math here, the big-4 have played about 33% more PP TOI YTD than Barrie and Nylander, according to NHL.com.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: pmrules on October 07, 2019, 11:06:33 AM
This powerplay strategy is frustrating for more than a year now. You can't have BOTH a stacked PP1 AND an approximate 50/50 split in ice time.

If you are going to stack PP1 then they need to be on the ice for >1 min at a time of the Powerplay. 

If you insist on playing time to be split 50/50 between PP1 and PP2, then you need to have PP1 with Tavares/Marner/Rielly and PP2 with Matthews/Nylander/Barrie - or some split thereof.  Nylander and Barrie are out there by themselves on PP2.

Just for some math here, the big-4 have played about 33% more PP TOI YTD than Barrie and Nylander, according to NHL.com.

Well that is to be expected if/when PP1 scores...PP2 gets 0 time.

The issue is when they don't score and they all scurry off between 0:45 and 1:00.

EDIT:  Also if PP2 scores then PP1 will have higher Ice time as well.  Eg.  PP2 30 seconds into their shift, then PP1 was out there for a minute while PP2 was out there for 30 seconds. PP1 will always have higher TOI.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 07, 2019, 11:26:49 AM
This powerplay strategy is frustrating for more than a year now. You can't have BOTH a stacked PP1 AND an approximate 50/50 split in ice time.

If you are going to stack PP1 then they need to be on the ice for >1 min at a time of the Powerplay. 

If you insist on playing time to be split 50/50 between PP1 and PP2, then you need to have PP1 with Tavares/Marner/Rielly and PP2 with Matthews/Nylander/Barrie - or some split thereof.  Nylander and Barrie are out there by themselves on PP2.

Just for some math here, the big-4 have played about 33% more PP TOI YTD than Barrie and Nylander, according to NHL.com.

Well that is to be expected if/when PP1 scores...PP2 gets 0 time.

The issue is when they don't score and they all scurry off between 0:45 and 1:00.

EDIT:  Also if PP2 scores then PP1 will have higher Ice time as well.  Eg.  PP2 30 seconds into their shift, then PP1 was out there for a minute while PP2 was out there for 30 seconds. PP1 will always have higher TOI.

I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing here, but I already showed that the "big-4" are playing significantly more PP time, as would be expected given the "stacking".

How much more would you like them to play?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on October 07, 2019, 11:39:24 AM
This powerplay strategy is frustrating for more than a year now. You can't have BOTH a stacked PP1 AND an approximate 50/50 split in ice time.

If you are going to stack PP1 then they need to be on the ice for >1 min at a time of the Powerplay. 

If you insist on playing time to be split 50/50 between PP1 and PP2, then you need to have PP1 with Tavares/Marner/Rielly and PP2 with Matthews/Nylander/Barrie - or some split thereof.  Nylander and Barrie are out there by themselves on PP2.

Just for some math here, the big-4 have played about 33% more PP TOI YTD than Barrie and Nylander, according to NHL.com.

Well that is to be expected if/when PP1 scores...PP2 gets 0 time.

The issue is when they don't score and they all scurry off between 0:45 and 1:00.

EDIT:  Also if PP2 scores then PP1 will have higher Ice time as well.  Eg.  PP2 30 seconds into their shift, then PP1 was out there for a minute while PP2 was out there for 30 seconds. PP1 will always have higher TOI.

I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing here, but I already showed that the "big-4" are playing significantly more PP time, as would be expected given the "stacking".

How much more would you like them to play?

At least 34%!!!!!!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: pmrules on October 07, 2019, 11:46:46 AM
Let me try another way.

Stacked PP1 has a 20% chance of scoring. 
Not so stacked PP2 has a 10% chance of scoring. 

If PP1 gets off the ice around 1 minute if they don't score, then the coach is inherently giving them about 50/50 split in ice time.  That is my issue...you are giving PP1 and PP2 equal opportunity to score in terms of ice time, yet there is a significant difference in skill.  My solve is that you either have to balance the skill OR over weight on the ice time allocations to PP1 (i.e. they don't get off at 1 minute...they get off at 1:30 or so).

The numbers you are looking at are absolute and will be different because of either the PP1 or PP2 scoring (which of course will happen).  Its inherent in those numbers that PP1 will have more time on the ice (as I showed above). 

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 07, 2019, 11:52:25 AM
Tampa Bay had no shots on Goal in the 2nd period playing against Carolina, only 2 in the 3rd and 13 overall. How dae do dat?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 07, 2019, 11:57:15 AM
Tampa Bay had no shots on Goal in the 2nd period playing against Carolina, only 2 in the 3rd and 13 overall. How dae do dat?

Disgruntled workers in Tampa being underpaid relative to their league wide counterparts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 07, 2019, 12:12:20 PM
Tampa Bay had no shots on Goal in the 2nd period playing against Carolina, only 2 in the 3rd and 13 overall. How dae do dat?

Disgruntled workers in Tampa being underpaid relative to their league wide counterparts.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on October 07, 2019, 12:25:04 PM
Let me try another way.

Stacked PP1 has a 20% chance of scoring. 
Not so stacked PP2 has a 10% chance of scoring. 

If PP1 gets off the ice around 1 minute if they don't score, then the coach is inherently giving them about 50/50 split in ice time.  That is my issue...you are giving PP1 and PP2 equal opportunity to score in terms of ice time, yet there is a significant difference in skill.  My solve is that you either have to balance the skill OR over weight on the ice time allocations to PP1 (i.e. they don't get off at 1 minute...they get off at 1:30 or so).

The numbers you are looking at are absolute and will be different because of either the PP1 or PP2 scoring (which of course will happen).  Its inherent in those numbers that PP1 will have more time on the ice (as I showed above).

We need the split when the powerplay fails to score.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on October 07, 2019, 01:12:09 PM
Let me try another way.

Stacked PP1 has a 20% chance of scoring. 
Not so stacked PP2 has a 10% chance of scoring. 

If PP1 gets off the ice around 1 minute if they don't score, then the coach is inherently giving them about 50/50 split in ice time.  That is my issue...you are giving PP1 and PP2 equal opportunity to score in terms of ice time, yet there is a significant difference in skill.  My solve is that you either have to balance the skill OR over weight on the ice time allocations to PP1 (i.e. they don't get off at 1 minute...they get off at 1:30 or so).

The numbers you are looking at are absolute and will be different because of either the PP1 or PP2 scoring (which of course will happen).  Its inherent in those numbers that PP1 will have more time on the ice (as I showed above).

There is a hidden assumption here ó that PP1 effectiveness is a linear function of time. PP1 effectiveness may decrease after 1 minute of play time due to fatigue.

But I agree that it seems likely PP1 could last a little longer.

But I also like the idea of letting Marner/Tavares/Reilly/Johnsson take responsibility for most of the PP1 puck carrying and board battles. Matthews stands around and shoots and plays for nearly 2 min with both PP1 and PP2.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on October 07, 2019, 01:17:36 PM
Let me try another way.

Stacked PP1 has a 20% chance of scoring. 
Not so stacked PP2 has a 10% chance of scoring. 

If PP1 gets off the ice around 1 minute if they don't score, then the coach is inherently giving them about 50/50 split in ice time.  That is my issue...you are giving PP1 and PP2 equal opportunity to score in terms of ice time, yet there is a significant difference in skill.  My solve is that you either have to balance the skill OR over weight on the ice time allocations to PP1 (i.e. they don't get off at 1 minute...they get off at 1:30 or so).

The numbers you are looking at are absolute and will be different because of either the PP1 or PP2 scoring (which of course will happen).  Its inherent in those numbers that PP1 will have more time on the ice (as I showed above).

There is a hidden assumption here ó that PP1 effectiveness is a linear function of time. PP1 effectiveness may decrease after 1 minute of play time due to fatigue.

But I agree that it seems likely PP1 could last a little longer.

But I also like the idea of letting Marner/Tavares/Reilly/Johnsson take responsibility for most of the PP1 puck carrying and board battles. Matthews stands around and shoots and plays for nearly 2 min with both PP1 and PP2.

If that's the problem. PP1 could get back on the ice at 1:30. PP1 from 0:00-00:50, PP2 00:51-01:30, PP1 01:31-2:00. Give or take depending on the play of course.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 07, 2019, 01:47:18 PM
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/morgan-rielly-maple-leafs-leader-big-read/
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Strangelove on October 11, 2019, 08:35:16 AM
So is this going to be another year in which the Leafs play below their talent at home because of poor line-up management by Babcock? The systemic issues we saw last night are the same issues we've seen for year.s. I'm sure Babcock's response will be "they missed Hyman. He's a pretty good player, huh?"

On an unrelated note, the early returns on Marner are not good. Seeing him play beside players like Point and Kucherov (and Matthews!) makes it easy to see that there are certain dimensions Marner's game lacks. And yet here we are, paying him more than any other (almost any other?) winger in the league.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2019, 09:38:38 AM
Like it or not, Marner's going to be compared to Point.  Point had an exceptional game last night.  He's not THAT much better.  But Marner has been anything but exceptional so far.  He needs to pick it up.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2019, 09:43:02 AM
What last night's game brought into focus (again) is whether the Leafs D is good enough to win a Cup.  Not because it is as bad as it was last night ó except for Holl & Sandin they all managed to converge on Awful at the same time.

But even playing at their best, does anyone here really think the Leafs can win it all with the defense, even after Dermott returns?

I'm skeptical there's a convincing argument here, but maybe there is?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 11, 2019, 10:03:56 AM
What last night's game brought into focus (again) is whether the Leafs D is good enough to win a Cup.  Not because it is as bad as it was last night ó except for Holl & Sandin they all managed to converge on Awful at the same time.

But even playing at their best, does anyone here really think the Leafs can win it all with the defense, even after Dermott returns?

I'm skeptical there's a convincing argument here, but maybe there is?

I think our defence is comparable to 3 of the past 4 Cup winners (PIT x2, WSH).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 10:11:36 AM

The sky always looks like itís falling when weíre funlucky.

I think weíve played an uneven 5 games in a fairly short stretch right off the hop. Lots to be encouraged by, and lots of work left to do. The team overhaul is bound to require some settling time.

What Iíd like to see is the Leafs start pushing their Ďfloorí higher as the season progresses. They get emotionally and mentally down when things bounce the other way and come away from the game they know how to play to try to eke out more goals. They need to build their consistent default level of play up with routine puck wins, zone entry with possession, and better communication on defensive sort-outs.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 11, 2019, 10:28:11 AM
Neat-ish fact that I just found: Sandin has yet to be on the ice for a 5-on-5 goal against so far this season. Ditto for Holl, Marincin was on for 1 but that was with Muzzin (possibly after a PK expired?). So Sandin-Holl/Marincin haven't given up a goal yet.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2019, 10:33:25 AM
What last night's game brought into focus (again) is whether the Leafs D is good enough to win a Cup.  Not because it is as bad as it was last night ó except for Holl & Sandin they all managed to converge on Awful at the same time.

But even playing at their best, does anyone here really think the Leafs can win it all with the defense, even after Dermott returns?

I'm skeptical there's a convincing argument here, but maybe there is?

I think our defence is comparable to 3 of the past 4 Cup winners (PIT x2, WSH).

OK.  I don't think it quite rises to that level because we don't have a good mix of skillsets back there.  Outside of Muzzin, who's been pretty inconsistent, our best players are too much alike (Rielly, Dermott, now Barrie).  Maybe Sandin will continue to impress and help change that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 11, 2019, 10:48:40 AM
OK.  I don't think it quite rises to that level because we don't have a good mix of skillsets back there.  Outside of Muzzin, who's been pretty inconsistent, our best players are too much alike (Rielly, Dermott, now Barrie).  Maybe Sandin will continue to impress and help change that.

Just to lay it out there, this is what those Cup champs used in the playoffs:

17-18 Caps
Orlov-Niskanen
Kempny-Carlson
Orpik-Djoos

I was a big fan of those top-3, especially since this was before Niskanen's down year. But I think that group is pretty darn comparable to Rielly-Barrie-Muzzin, we might arguably even have a slight advantage. Kempny is certainly a defenceman who exists, but I can't really vouch for him aside from that. Their bottom pairing was out of the NHL a year later, Orpik to retirement and Djoos to the AHL.

16-17 Penguins
Dumoulin-Hainsey
Cole-Schultz
Daley-Maatta

This is arguably the worst defence group to ever win a Cup.

15-16 Penguins
Dumoulin-Letang
Cole-Schultz
Lovejoy-Maatta

This one had Letang, which is a pretty huge bonus. But even still Letang and Schultz are both very risk-adverse defencemen who can give up as much as they get. Then they have Dumoulin who is more of an all-around guy. So again a top-3 that sounds/feels pretty similar to ours. Is the rest of their D better than ours because they don't have similar "skillsets" (i.e. they aren't skilled)?

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on October 11, 2019, 10:51:57 AM
Stole this from Reddit, how about the D from Stanley cup champs Lighning and Hurricanes?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 11, 2019, 12:03:26 PM
Like it or not, Marner's going to be compared to Point.  Point had an exceptional game last night.  He's not THAT much better.  But Marner has been anything but exceptional so far.  He needs to pick it up.
But he is better, much like Matthews is better. Something is up with Marner. His stats aren't bad but he looks terrible. Constantly giving the puck away, making bad passes. Just not like him.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 12:39:49 PM
Holl has earned another game

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 11, 2019, 12:54:17 PM
Holl has earned another game

Should have been Marv:

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 01:00:07 PM
I like both but we wonít be carrying both when Dermott returns. If we are keeping Sandin, Holl is the only one we can fit anyway.

If Holl keeps being acceptable for PK and continues to make plays and skate out of trouble, Iím okay sending Marincin down to anchor Liljegrenís growth.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 01:03:25 PM
Guess who is the only Leaf to record points in every game this season so far
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 11, 2019, 01:19:50 PM
I like both but we wonít be carrying both when Dermott returns. If we are keeping Sandin, Holl is the only one we can fit anyway.

If Holl keeps being acceptable for PK and continues to make plays and skate out of trouble, Iím okay sending Marincin down to anchor Liljegrenís growth.

I'm holding out hope that one month of play will be enough for Dubas to recognize his mistake with Ceci and at that same time Winnipeg will get confirmation that Byfuglien won't be playing this season so we can then dump Ceci on them.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 11, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
I like both but we wonít be carrying both when Dermott returns. If we are keeping Sandin, Holl is the only one we can fit anyway.

If Holl keeps being acceptable for PK and continues to make plays and skate out of trouble, Iím okay sending Marincin down to anchor Liljegrenís growth.

I'm holding out hope that one month of play will be enough for Dubas to recognize his mistake with Ceci and at that same time Winnipeg will get confirmation that Byfuglien won't be playing this season so we can then dump Ceci on them.
Throw in Mitch and his contract as well. He has been terrible so far.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 01:25:10 PM
I like both but we wonít be carrying both when Dermott returns. If we are keeping Sandin, Holl is the only one we can fit anyway.

If Holl keeps being acceptable for PK and continues to make plays and skate out of trouble, Iím okay sending Marincin down to anchor Liljegrenís growth.

I'm holding out hope that one month of play will be enough for Dubas to recognize his mistake with Ceci and at that same time Winnipeg will get confirmation that Byfuglien won't be playing this season so we can then dump Ceci on them.

It's very contingent on Holl/Marincin/Dermott/Sandin being capable of filling the vacated niche or finding a second dance partner. I don't really want any of Winnipeg's options in return other than a draft pick.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 01:25:45 PM
Throw in Mitch and his contract as well. He has been terrible so far.

A lot of people were saying this about Nylander last December.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 11, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
Throw in Mitch and his contract as well. He has been terrible so far.

A lot of people were saying this about Nylander last December.
True dat Herminator, but Marner didn't miss camp and is paid a lot more than Nylander who seems to be giving a s__t.   Marner has turned into a give away machine and he just has to do better...And I know he will.  Just frustrated with a few of them
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 11, 2019, 01:49:41 PM
Guess who is the only Leaf to record points in every game this season so far

(https://media.giphy.com/media/NEvPzZ8bd1V4Y/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2019, 02:05:25 PM
OK.  I don't think it quite rises to that level because we don't have a good mix of skillsets back there.  Outside of Muzzin, who's been pretty inconsistent, our best players are too much alike (Rielly, Dermott, now Barrie).  Maybe Sandin will continue to impress and help change that.

Just to lay it out there, this is what those Cup champs used in the playoffs:

17-18 Caps
Orlov-Niskanen
Kempny-Carlson
Orpik-Djoos

I was a big fan of those top-3, especially since this was before Niskanen's down year. But I think that group is pretty darn comparable to Rielly-Barrie-Muzzin, we might arguably even have a slight advantage. Kempny is certainly a defenceman who exists, but I can't really vouch for him aside from that. Their bottom pairing was out of the NHL a year later, Orpik to retirement and Djoos to the AHL.

16-17 Penguins
Dumoulin-Hainsey
Cole-Schultz
Daley-Maatta

This is arguably the worst defence group to ever win a Cup.

15-16 Penguins
Dumoulin-Letang
Cole-Schultz
Lovejoy-Maatta

This one had Letang, which is a pretty huge bonus. But even still Letang and Schultz are both very risk-adverse defencemen who can give up as much as they get. Then they have Dumoulin who is more of an all-around guy. So again a top-3 that sounds/feels pretty similar to ours. Is the rest of their D better than ours because they don't have similar "skillsets" (i.e. they aren't skilled)?

I forgot that they won it once w/o Letang.

OK, you're right.  But I'm still not convinced this bunch has what it takes.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2019, 02:30:56 PM
Throw in Mitch and his contract as well. He has been terrible so far.

A lot of people were saying this about Nylander last December.
True dat Herminator, but Marner didn't miss camp and is paid a lot more than Nylander who seems to be giving a s__t.   Marner has turned into a give away machine and he just has to do better...And I know he will.  Just frustrated with a few of them

Yeah I know you don't really mean you want to trade him.

It's a new look to the system (new assistants and new inputs) and lots of new faces and idiosyncracies to feel out. We could see it on full display last night up against a team that knows what they're doing and has done it together for a couple of years now: they made passes, we missed assignments. Everyone is still maybe thinking a little bit more than playing.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2019, 03:05:45 PM
Throw in Mitch and his contract as well. He has been terrible so far.

A lot of people were saying this about Nylander last December.
True dat Herminator, but Marner didn't miss camp and is paid a lot more than Nylander who seems to be giving a s__t.   Marner has turned into a give away machine and he just has to do better...And I know he will.  Just frustrated with a few of them

Yeah I know you don't really mean you want to trade him.

It's a new look to the system (new assistants and new inputs) and lots of new faces and idiosyncracies to feel out. We could see it on full display last night up against a team that knows what they're doing and has done it together for a couple of years now: they made passes, we missed assignments. Everyone is still maybe thinking a little bit more than playing.

Your incessant positive attitude and even-keeled thinking is driving me nuts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 14, 2019, 11:05:00 AM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/10/14/20912161/toronto-maple-leafs-analysis-tavares-marner-matthews-nylander-top-six

I saw this in a tweet, but I forgot who it was: Tavares is likely sleep-deprived (thanks, Jace), and perhaps he did a lot more of the playdriving than Marner's agent would like to admit. Marner is carrying the new burden of his contract, and while I don't have anything concrete to back it up, for some reason I tend to remember a lot of players signing big deals and taking awhile to get up to speed and meet elevated expectations, if at all (granted, a lot of those are lesser talents who cashed in on big years a la Clarkson and Lucic and Eriksson etc.).

That said, these two are elite talents, some of the biggest hockey nerds on the ice, and didn't just up and forget how to play. They'll be fine.

Johnsson - Matthews - Nylander: pew pew pew
Their defensive numbers are what's impressive to me this season. For long stretches of the game, the other line matched against them does not have the puck, like at all.

EDIT: the charts on xG are currently systematically inaccurate due to the data coming from NHL show location trackers
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 14, 2019, 11:17:51 AM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/10/14/20912161/toronto-maple-leafs-analysis-tavares-marner-matthews-nylander-top-six

I saw this in a tweet, but I forgot who it was: Tavares is likely sleep-deprived (thanks, Jace), and perhaps he did a lot more of the playdriving than Marner's agent would like to admit. Marner is carrying the new burden of his contract, and while I don't have anything concrete to back it up, for some reason I tend to remember a lot of players signing big deals and taking awhile to get up to speed and meet elevated expectations, if at all (granted, a lot of those are lesser talents who cashed in on big years a la Clarkson and Lucic and Eriksson etc.).

That said, these two are elite talents, some of the biggest hockey nerds on the ice, and didn't just up and forget how to play. They'll be fine.

Johnsson - Matthews - Nylander: pew pew pew
Their defensive numbers are what's impressive to me this season. For long stretches of the game, the other line matched against them does not have the puck, like at all.

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/MF9wacOZ7aXCFZaSnx69amhV5AM=/0x0:704x414/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:704x414):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19283714/Screen_Shot_2019_10_13_at_2.27.50_PM.png)

I tend to remember that too.  There was this one guy, just last year ... I can almost picture him ....  :P :P :P ;) ;) :P :P :( :(
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 14, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
I tend to remember that too.  There was this one guy, just last year ... I can almost picture him ....  :P :P :P ;) ;) :P :P :( :(

He's not a lesser talent, now is he?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 15, 2019, 01:43:45 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/10/15/toronto-maple-leafs-notebook-promising-signs-from-the-bottom-six/

I like these write ups
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 15, 2019, 01:57:10 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/10/15/toronto-maple-leafs-notebook-promising-signs-from-the-bottom-six/

I like these write ups
Ya nice, thanks Herman!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 15, 2019, 02:03:06 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/10/15/toronto-maple-leafs-notebook-promising-signs-from-the-bottom-six/

I like these write ups
Ya nice, thanks Herman!

But I didnít write it  :)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 15, 2019, 02:19:14 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/10/15/toronto-maple-leafs-notebook-promising-signs-from-the-bottom-six/

I like these write ups
Ya nice, thanks Herman!

But I didnít write it  :)
Ya did post it Pilgrim
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 16, 2019, 04:15:50 AM
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/scratch-surprise-holl-finds-niche-leafs-simplified-game/
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 17, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Who the hell is in charge of NHL scheduling ... Donald Duck?  We have upcoming:

ē 5 games in 8 days
ē 2 B2Bs in that stretch
ē The back end of the B2Bs are away games

We're going to wish we had a better backup.  We could be exiting Oct with a pretty ugly record.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 17, 2019, 01:12:06 PM
Who the hell is in charge of NHL scheduling ... Donald Duck?  We have upcoming:

ē 5 games in 8 days
ē 2 B2Bs in that stretch
ē The back end of the B2Bs are away games

We're going to wish we had a better backup.  We could be exiting Oct with a pretty ugly record.

I swear some of our games must have been meant for the Rangers and the NHL just didn't notice. They only have 3 games played right now.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 17, 2019, 01:12:38 PM
Who the hell is in charge of NHL scheduling ... Donald Duck?  We have upcoming:

ē 5 games in 8 days
ē 2 B2Bs in that stretch
ē The back end of the B2Bs are away games

We're going to wish we had a better backup.  We could be exiting Oct with a pretty ugly record.

I swear some of our games must have been meant for the Rangers and the NHL just didn't notice. They only have 3 games played right now.

It are insane.  But it will be good to have all of January off.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 17, 2019, 01:23:17 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 17, 2019, 01:27:18 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.

BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE IN LAST PLACE BY NEW YEAR?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Boston Leaf on October 17, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.

BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE IN LAST PLACE BY NEW YEAR?

then we follow the Blues script  ::)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 17, 2019, 01:56:32 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.

BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE IN LAST PLACE BY NEW YEAR?

then we follow the Blues script  ::)

We call up Kaskisuo and he leads us to the Cup?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 17, 2019, 02:10:42 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.

BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE IN LAST PLACE BY NEW YEAR?

then we follow the Blues script  ::)

We call up Kaskisuo and he leads us to the Cup?
why don't we give him a game, unless that would totally crush Hutch's self Confidence.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 17, 2019, 02:52:54 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.

BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE IN LAST PLACE BY NEW YEAR?

then we follow the Blues script  ::)

We call up Kaskisuo and he leads us to the Cup?

Solid.  Where do I affix my endorsement?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 17, 2019, 02:53:44 PM

This was so, so painful.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 17, 2019, 03:22:04 PM
I'm good with the schedule. I'd rather have them have an easier schedule nearer to the playoffs.

BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE IN LAST PLACE BY NEW YEAR?

Sheldon Keefe will fix that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 17, 2019, 03:30:49 PM

This was so, so painful.
Only if you take it seriously. Prime suspect in Clue was good.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 10:54:30 AM

Freed Willy.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 10:55:45 AM

The old "not good enough to be a 4th liner, but good enough to be a 3rd liner" routine.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 11:09:45 AM

Freed Willy.

Watch him score 4 goals and really free willy Joe Thornton style.
Honestly surprised no one has done it what with all the 4-goal games we've seen recently.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 11:11:17 AM
The old "not good enough to be a 4th liner, but good enough to be a 3rd liner" routine.

I think Babcock's contention with Spezza on line 4 is always his defensive 'instincts', not his offensive capabilities.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 11:18:31 AM
The old "not good enough to be a 4th liner, but good enough to be a 3rd liner" routine.

I think Babcock's contention with Spezza on line 4 is always his defensive 'instincts', not his offensive capabilities.

In (admittedly limited games/minutes) Spezza has the lowest CA/60 on the entire team while Shore has the highest. Gauthier's is also among the highest, especially when he's playing with Shore, which of course makes sense as their numbers will be linked.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 18, 2019, 11:20:46 AM

The old "not good enough to be a 4th liner, but good enough to be a 3rd liner" routine.

I'd have put Spezza with Mikheyev and Marner, and let Kerfoot continue to settle in with Moore and Kapanen...I think Kerfoot hasn't been consistently good enough yet, and given it's only for a couple of weeks, I think some consistency might be more helpful.

But what do I know...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 11:23:43 AM
Possession numbers broken down for the guys competing for the 4th line spot:

CF/60
Petan: 81.25 (1st among forwards)
Spezza: 79.54 (2nd)
Gauthier: 57.77 (12th)
Timashov: 56.63 (13th)
Shore: 56.55 (14th)

CA/60
Spezza: 32.41 (1st)
Petan: 33.62 (2nd)
Gauthier: 60.28 (12th)
Timashov: 68.76 (13th)
Shore: 70.34 (14th)

CF%
Spezza: 71.05 (1st)
Petan: 70.73 (2nd)
Gauthier: 48.94 (12th)
Timashov: 45.16 (13th)
Shore: 44.57 (14th)

Now, I don't think that these numbers tell the entire story, but it's pretty bizarre to me that Babcock was starting to really favour the Timashov/Shore duo over Petan/Spezza considering how wide of a gap they are.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 11:28:21 AM
These numbers obviously aren't surprising given the above but just to add them as well:

In 3 games the Petan-Spezza-Gauthier line has a CF% of 72.22%, a GF% of 33% (1 GF, 2 GA), and an xGF% of 74.44% (1.22 xGF, 0.42 xGA).

In 5 games the Timashov-Shore-Gauthier line has a CF% of 46.58%, a GF% of 60% (3 GF, 2 GA), and an xGF% of 47.89 (1.4 xGF, 1.53 xGA).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 18, 2019, 11:36:26 AM
These numbers obviously aren't surprising given the above but just to add them as well:

In 3 games the Petan-Spezza-Gauthier line has a CF% of 72.22%, a GF% of 33% (1 GF, 2 GA), and an xGF% of 74.44% (1.22 xGF, 0.42 xGA).

In 5 games the Timashov-Shore-Gauthier line has a CF% of 46.58%, a GF% of 60% (3 GF, 2 GA), and an xGF% of 47.89 (1.4 xGF, 1.53 xGA).

This whole Shore in for Spezza, even Timashov over Petan, is a little bananas to me. 

I really don't get it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 12:06:13 PM
Their zone starts are hilariously skewed, and it's pretty clear why Babcock has favoured Shore/Timashov over Spezza/Petan in the early goings
5v5TOICF60CA60CF%GF60GA60OZSNZSDZSOTF
Frederik Gauthier71:4057.7760.2848.943.355.021113353
Dmytro Timashov44:3056.6368.7645.164.044.04072734
Nick Shore43:4056.5570.3444.574.142.76173428
Jason Spezza20:2279.5432.4171.052.955.89141017
Nic Petan21:2581.2533.6270.732.85.614819
via NaturalStatTrick

At the same time:
Spezza-Petan were assigned to play: Columbus, St. Louis, Tampa
Shore-Timashov got: Ottawa, Montreal, Detroit, Minnesota, Washington

Not shown above are the faceoffs taken. Gauthier has 51 5v5 DZ faceoffs taken in his 8 games. Shore also has 51 5v5 DZ draws taken in his 5 games played and winning his draws (regardless of zone) at 68.75%. Only Gauthier is better at 70.27%. Spezza is 4 for 12.

The caveat is these are awfully low sample sizes to draw any predictive conclusions, and quality of competition miiiight be a factor -- although line 4 vs line 4 might be more of a wash, other than Tampa. But the thing with coaching decisions with limited TOI is that you probably have to lean on your 'hot' hand while the results are in your favour. Top 9 decisions are where you take a slightly longer view because they have way more puck touches to normalize.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 18, 2019, 12:26:16 PM
GA/60 is a pretty meaningless stat over 20 minutes.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 12:36:27 PM
GA/60 is a pretty meaningless stat over 20 minutes.

Yes. No predictive value.

But they were deployed for 20 minutes over 3 games and got scored on (was there a lost draw on those Andersen gaffes?). No coach is going to say, I'll play them more and let that even out over time.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 12:40:42 PM
But they were deployed for 20 minutes over 3 games and got scored on (probably due to a lost draw?). No coach is going to say, I'll play them more and let that even out over time.

Spezza's two 5-on-5 goals against were both scored off the rush. One was (what I would consider) an easily stoppable slapshot by Oscar Sundqvist that went through Andersen's five-hole against St. Louis. The other was in the Tampa game, the puck was dumped into Toronto's end after a Leafs powerplay and Andersen passed it directly to a wide-open Stamkos for some reason and he passed it to Kucherov who scored.

Shore's two 5-on-5 goals against were the Sabourin goal against Ottawa and the Mayhew goal against Minnesota. Both goals were the result of poor defensive zone coverage on cycles, and both saw Shore not collapsing down low and picking up the open player who scored. Both goals conveniently enough were also scored by non-NHLers.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 18, 2019, 12:41:28 PM
🥺



https://theathletic.com/1302592/2019/10/17/john-tavares-is-out-until-november-what-do-the-maple-leafs-do-now/ (https://theathletic.com/1302592/2019/10/17/john-tavares-is-out-until-november-what-do-the-maple-leafs-do-now/)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 12:46:35 PM
But they were deployed for 20 minutes over 3 games and got scored on (probably due to a lost draw?). No coach is going to say, I'll play them more and let that even out over time.

Spezza's two 5-on-5 goals against were both scored off the rush. One was (what I would consider) an easily stoppable slapshot by Oscar Sundqvist that went through Andersen's five-hole against St. Louis. The other was in the Tampa game, the puck was dumped into Toronto's end after a Leafs powerplay and Andersen passed it directly to a wide-open Stamkos for some reason and he passed it to Kucherov who scored.

Shore's two 5-on-5 goals against were the Sabourin goal against Ottawa and the Mayhew goal against Minnesota. Both goals were the result of poor defensive zone coverage on cycles, and both saw Shore not collapsing down low and picking up the open player who scored. Both goals conveniently enough were also scored by non-NHLers.

Ah thanks.

What's your goal look up method, by the way?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 18, 2019, 12:47:52 PM
But they were deployed for 20 minutes over 3 games and got scored on (probably due to a lost draw?). No coach is going to say, I'll play them more and let that even out over time.

Spezza's two 5-on-5 goals against were both scored off the rush. One was (what I would consider) an easily stoppable slapshot by Oscar Sundqvist that went through Andersen's five-hole against St. Louis. The other was in the Tampa game, the puck was dumped into Toronto's end after a Leafs powerplay and Andersen passed it directly to a wide-open Stamkos for some reason and he passed it to Kucherov who scored.

Shore's two 5-on-5 goals against were the Sabourin goal against Ottawa and the Mayhew goal against Minnesota. Both goals were the result of poor defensive zone coverage on cycles, and both saw Shore not collapsing down low and picking up the open player who scored. Both goals conveniently enough were also scored by non-NHLers.

I mean Spezza did lose the offensive zone faceoff leading to the rush on the Sundqvist goal, but yeah, it was a shot that should have been stopped and that turover goal was just typical October Andersen where he makes boneheaded plays with the puck at times.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 18, 2019, 12:48:35 PM
But they were deployed for 20 minutes over 3 games and got scored on (probably due to a lost draw?). No coach is going to say, I'll play them more and let that even out over time.

Spezza's two 5-on-5 goals against were both scored off the rush. One was (what I would consider) an easily stoppable slapshot by Oscar Sundqvist that went through Andersen's five-hole against St. Louis. The other was in the Tampa game, the puck was dumped into Toronto's end after a Leafs powerplay and Andersen passed it directly to a wide-open Stamkos for some reason and he passed it to Kucherov who scored.

Shore's two 5-on-5 goals against were the Sabourin goal against Ottawa and the Mayhew goal against Minnesota. Both goals were the result of poor defensive zone coverage on cycles, and both saw Shore not collapsing down low and picking up the open player who scored. Both goals conveniently enough were also scored by non-NHLers.

Ah thanks.

What's your goal look up method, by the way?

I hope CtB has a better one than I did where I went to NHL.com and pulled up the play-by-play/watched the goal video.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 12:51:01 PM
I hope CtB has a better one than I did where I went to NHL.com and pulled up the play-by-play/watched the goal video.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/LRVnPYqM8DLag/giphy.gif)

Well, I pulled up their gamelog's/shift charts on NST to find the exact goal I was looking for then headed to the game pages on NHL.com. But yeah, just brute force.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 12:51:39 PM
ew, people go to nhl.com?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 01:26:14 PM
If I had to guess, I would say the largest deciding factor for Babcock in Spezza over Shore would be their role on the penalty kill. Spezza's played 2:49 on the PK and was on the ice for 2 goals against. Shore has played 4:54 and hasn't been scored on yet.

The first (https://www.nhl.com/video/t-308286502/c-69360403) goal against was the Atkinson one against Columbus. Face-off to the right of Andersen where Spezza wins the draw after a bit of a scramble but he puts it past Muzzin. Andersen tries to play it... misplays it... and then a Columbus players gets on the loose puck and fires it into the net.

The second (https://www.nhl.com/video/stamkos-power-play-goal/t-309631252/c-69540003) goal was a one-timer by Stamkos. Spezza was playing the box near Stamkos' side and didn't collapse to him. If everyone who ever left Stamkos open for a PP one-timer got scratched though we'd be running out of NHLers.

With all that said though, why does Spezza even need to play on the penalty kill to be in the line-up? I don't get that. Both him and Shore are already behind Mikheyev, Marner, Kapanen, and Moore as those guys are the core 4. They're also slightly behind Gauthier, who plays the same FOGO role they do. And soon enough they'll be behind Hyman when he returns. That's 6 guys who can play on the PK ahead of either of them. Is Shore more useful to the team in a very, very limited PK role than Spezza would be playing consistent PP2 minutes?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 01:28:07 PM
Shore = Ben Smith/Byron Froese = Luke Glendening
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 18, 2019, 01:29:37 PM
ew, people go to nhl.com?

I do all the time. It's an easy way to get stats.

 :'(
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
ew, people go to nhl.com?

I do all the time. It's an easy way to get stats.

 :'(

You like mixing goal stats with shootout goals?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 18, 2019, 01:31:01 PM
If I had to guess, I would say the largest deciding factor for Babcock in Spezza over Shore would be their role on the penalty kill. Spezza's played 2:49 on the PK and was on the ice for 2 goals against. Shore has played 4:54 and hasn't been scored on yet.

The first (https://www.nhl.com/video/t-308286502/c-69360403) goal against was the Atkinson one against Columbus. Face-off to the right of Andersen where Spezza wins the draw after a bit of a scramble but he puts it past Muzzin. Andersen tries to play it... misplays it... and then a Columbus players gets on the loose puck and fires it into the net.

The second (https://www.nhl.com/video/stamkos-power-play-goal/t-309631252/c-69540003) goal was a one-timer by Stamkos. Spezza was playing the box near Stamkos' side and didn't collapse to him. If everyone who ever left Stamkos open for a PP one-timer got scratched though we'd be running out of NHLers.

With all that said though, why does Spezza even need to play on the penalty kill to be in the line-up? I don't get that. Both him and Shore are already behind Mikheyev, Marner, Kapanen, and Moore as those guys are the core 4. They're also slightly behind Gauthier, who plays the same FOGO role they do. And soon enough they'll be behind Hyman when he returns. That's 6 guys who can play on the PK ahead of either of them. Is Shore more useful to the team in a very, very limited PK role than Spezza would be playing consistent PP2 minutes?

Spezza strikes me as a 3rd/4th line+PP guy for the lineup so I'd agree there. 

I'm still kind of disappointed that Babock has stuck to Shore/Timashov and Petan/Spezza instead of looking at mixing that up.  Is there really a big problem with trying Spezza with Shore and Gauthier?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 18, 2019, 01:34:38 PM
Shore = Ben Smith/Byron Froese = Luke Glendening

Corsi For since 2016:

Ben Smith 41.8%
Byron Froese 45.6%
Luke Glendening 42.7%
Nick Shore 53.4%

One of these things is not like the others.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 18, 2019, 01:35:08 PM
I don't want to make it seem like I dislike Shore here either. In my original projected line-ups I had both him and Spezza making the team on the 4th line. I was actually rooting for Shore because he was always a bit of an under-the-radar analytics darling and Spezza because I'm a sucker for a good 'veteran returns home' story. But it was clear almost right from the very first moment Babcock mentioned Spezza's name that he didn't seem to care for him or the signing and I think that's obviously showed in his deployment/usage of him.

The one bright side to Tavares' injury is that it'll give Spezza another chance to show he belongs on the team. Otherwise in a week or so I think he would have found himself on waivers. Hopefully he can take advantage of this.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 02:03:11 PM
Shore = Ben Smith/Byron Froese = Luke Glendening

Corsi For since 2016:

Ben Smith 41.8%
Byron Froese 45.6%
Luke Glendening 42.7%
Nick Shore 53.4%

One of these things is not like the others.

RHC4PKFOs tho
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 18, 2019, 02:11:56 PM
You like mixing goal stats with shootout goals?

You just shattered my ignorant bliss.

I hope you feel bad.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 18, 2019, 03:17:04 PM
You like mixing goal stats with shootout goals?

You just shattered my ignorant bliss.

I hope you feel bad.

The last time I felt bad was from eating some bad white tuna at an AYCE. That was 4 days of bad.

This, this is the joy of shining light into the darkness.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 24, 2019, 01:30:26 AM
Grading the Leafs:

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 24, 2019, 10:55:31 AM
To judge by the lack of discussion around here compared to previous seasons, I'm sensing a shortfall of enthusiasm for this team.  Maybe it's just me though.

It's funny, you wait for years for the club to be good, to have some real skill, and now they do.  Yet I just don't feel a strong connection to the Big 4.  Maybe it's because outside of Tavares it appears they are content to coast too often.

Marner especially has gone from enthusiastic energizer to just another overpaid athlete.

I really enjoyed the first season of Matthews/Nylander/Marner together.  Since then ... it's been meh more than wow.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Boston Leaf on October 24, 2019, 11:01:57 AM
i find myself rooting for guys like Moore and Mikheyev much more than the millionaires... Of course I root for the club to win every night but I guess I am a fool and expected some to live up to the money they are being paid. It is early yet I guess so no time to panic yet. I keep telling myself that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 24, 2019, 11:02:18 AM
Perhaps it's the expectations. Despite having absolutely horrendous, lazy, underperforming seasons, Matthews is 3rd in the league in goals (Pastrnak and Neal ahead of him, with 5 and 6 power-play goals respectively) and Marner is tied for 12th in points.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2019, 11:17:26 AM
To judge by the lack of discussion around here compared to previous seasons, I'm sensing a shortfall of enthusiasm for this team.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I wanted to see if there was any way to double-check this.

Last year the first 11 GDTs had a total of 1468 replies, which equals an average of 133 per game. The busiest thread had 219 replies and the slowest one had just 83.

This year the first 11 GDTS had a total of 2224 replies, which equals an average of 202 per game. The busiest thread had 332 replies and the slowest had 132.

Last years "General Discussion" thread had 83 posts from Oct 1st to Oct. 23rd. This years "General Discussion" thread had 141.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 24, 2019, 11:19:30 AM
Get out of here with your spreadsheets and advanced stats.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2019, 11:23:39 AM

I'm sure he's fine (*he said with very little confidence*).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 24, 2019, 11:38:55 AM
Sitting out two practices in a row?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 24, 2019, 12:10:52 PM

Last year, the theme coming out of the off-season was that the Leafs had just signed one of the biggest UFA deals of all time. This year, the Leafs didn't do that and had an off-season dominated by supposed Leafs fans running down and taking whatever opportunity they could to call the team's talented young players selfish, overpaid and overrated.

So, yeah, there may be less enthusiasm for the team.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 24, 2019, 12:20:26 PM
Get out of here with your spreadsheets and advanced stats.

Yeah really shove off matey.  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

All I know is that yesterday there was essentially no activity on the main board all day.  (Some in the GDT.)   So HA.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 24, 2019, 12:23:20 PM

Last year, the theme coming out of the off-season was that the Leafs had just signed one of the biggest UFA deals of all time. This year, the Leafs didn't do that and had an off-season dominated by supposed Leafs fans running down and taking whatever opportunity they could to call the team's talented young players selfish, overpaid and overrated.

So, yeah, there may be less enthusiasm for the team.

Well, for me none of that is it.  I just don't cotton up to the superstars I guess.  I respect Tavares, but he's kind of hard to get, you know, excited abot -- er, I mean, "about."
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 24, 2019, 12:24:38 PM

I'm sure he's fine (*he said with very little confidence*).

Dermott ja.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 24, 2019, 12:28:34 PM
Well, for me none of that is it.  I just don't cotton up to the superstars I guess.  I respect Tavares, but he's kind of hard to get, you know, excited abot -- er, I mean, "about."

You may have missed my ironing, Malvolio.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2019, 12:37:49 PM
Get out of here with your spreadsheets and advanced stats.

Yeah really shove off matey.  :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

All I know is that yesterday there was essentially no activity on the main board all day.  (Some in the GDT.)   So HA.

Just admit that you were wrong! Don't make me look to see how many instances of "essentially" no activity we had here last October!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 24, 2019, 12:40:37 PM
To be fair, I was sick earlier this week and I havenít been able to watch games in their entirety due to driving.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 24, 2019, 01:04:20 PM

Marner might be hurt now too
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on October 24, 2019, 01:10:49 PM

Last year, the theme coming out of the off-season was that the Leafs had just signed one of the biggest UFA deals of all time. This year, the Leafs didn't do that and had an off-season dominated by supposed Leafs fans running down and taking whatever opportunity they could to call the team's talented young players selfish, overpaid and overrated.

So, yeah, there may be less enthusiasm for the team.

A side yet related thought. The Leafs have lost to Boston two years in a row in the first round. Both those years saw the final games of the regular season be mostly unimportant.  I don't really care what happens in the regular season this year, other than making the playoffs. I've watched way less this season than I normally do because of that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2019, 01:18:36 PM
Marner might be hurt now too

Babcock said he's fine. And that Rielly will play tomorrow.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 24, 2019, 01:29:58 PM

Last year, the theme coming out of the off-season was that the Leafs had just signed one of the biggest UFA deals of all time. This year, the Leafs didn't do that and had an off-season dominated by supposed Leafs fans running down and taking whatever opportunity they could to call the team's talented young players selfish, overpaid and overrated.

So, yeah, there may be less enthusiasm for the team.

A side yet related thought. The Leafs have lost to Boston two years in a row in the first round. Both those years saw the final games of the regular season be mostly unimportant.  I don't really care what happens in the regular season this year, other than making the playoffs. I've watched way less this season than I normally do because of that.

So it's the destination and not the journey?   ;)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 24, 2019, 01:33:48 PM
Um what about the friends we made along the way?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2019, 01:35:58 PM
A side yet related thought. The Leafs have lost to Boston two years in a row in the first round. Both those years saw the final games of the regular season be mostly unimportant.  I don't really care what happens in the regular season this year, other than making the playoffs. I've watched way less this season than I normally do because of that.

Fan version of load management.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 24, 2019, 02:21:48 PM
Marner might be hurt now too

Babcock said he's fine. And that Rielly will play tomorrow.

Babcock is a liar though
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 24, 2019, 02:49:48 PM
Well, for me none of that is it.  I just don't cotton up to the superstars I guess.  I respect Tavares, but he's kind of hard to get, you know, excited abot -- er, I mean, "about."

You may have missed my ironing, Malvolio.

It'll be neither the first, nor the forty-first, time.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on October 24, 2019, 04:43:46 PM
To judge by the lack of discussion around here compared to previous seasons, I'm sensing a shortfall of enthusiasm for this team.  Maybe it's just me though.

It's funny, you wait for years for the club to be good, to have some real skill, and now they do.  Yet I just don't feel a strong connection to the Big 4.  Maybe it's because outside of Tavares it appears they are content to coast too often.

Marner especially has gone from enthusiastic energizer to just another overpaid athlete.

I really enjoyed the first season of Matthews/Nylander/Marner together.  Since then ... it's been meh more than wow.
That first year was exciting. They overachieved and made us believe there was greatness on the horizon, possibly including a Cup. Now, though, they seem to have settled into a rut marked by long periods of lazy/indifferent play, too much time in the defensive zone, over-reliance on Andersen. Dare I say, the play often looks like it did during the Carlyle era (I'm sure I'll get flak for that comment, but that's how things look to me). I mentioned on the GDT thread that I sometimes feel like I'm still watching Kessel and JVR float around out there, waving their sticks as opponents skate by them. I'm holding out hope that at some point it clicks and there is still plenty of time. Perhaps it will require another first round loss and a coaching change to light a fire under these guys.

At least the bottom 6 have been working hard and fun to watch.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: azzurri63 on October 24, 2019, 06:18:10 PM
I just got back home from Toronto visiting for a week and was able to go to the last 2 games at home Saturday and Monday.

I know I get a lot of flack on here as I come across harsh and constantly complaining about the coach, the system, the effort on a nightly basis, the lack of grit and intensity and I could go on.

Truth of the matter is it's true. I have repeatedly bitc**d about Babcock and his coaching and where this team has gone since he took over and I will continue to say it. team is not going anywhere.

The stars are coasting out there and it's BS. I don't know if they've had enough of Babcock or what but they need to bring it every night which they don't.

As much as I'm not a fan of Button he's absolutely right about this team not being a contender and Matthews and Marner making roughly $22 million per ( Thanks Dubas) needing to start playing like it.

They can be a lot better especially Mitch.

Some have stated we have new players and may need some time to gel. Some say when we get Dermott and Hyman back then things will change.

I'll say it now and I'll say it again I don't think so because the same things that have plagued this team since day 1 of Babcocks tenure are the same things plaguing us now.

I just don't see it improving. Andersen is the sole reason we have been where we have in the standings the last 2-3 years. He's won us a lot of regular reason games on his own. The team is astonishingly horrible defensively for the last 3 years. That and being soft makes this team easy to play against. Personally I think Dubas failed to address that on this team. We have too many players who aren't willing to go into the dirty areas and a lot of the times will shy away from it. Far too often live and on tv there is opportunity to rub a guy out and we skate by. Man we don't need to kill people just rub them out but we don't. Some on here say you don't need that. Well I think you do. They have the puck we can't score .

I have been a fan of this team for 40+ years and would want nothing more than them to succeed. Truthfully I don't see this bunch doing it not with Babcock. management needs to get him out of here. Keefe will get more out of this bunch with a better system and compete level and the $40 million dollar boys need to get their heads out of their as**s and start playing like it.






Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 24, 2019, 06:25:43 PM
I know I get a lot of flack on here as I come across harsh and constantly complaining about the coach, the system, the effort on a nightly basis, the lack of grit and intensity and I could go on.

Truth of the matter is it's true.

Really? The things you say over and over and over and over and over no matter what happens on the ice are things you think are true? Well, my goodness, that is a gamechanger.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on October 24, 2019, 06:47:11 PM
Some have stated we have new players and may need some time to gel.
Which is kind of funny since the new players (Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Timashov in particular) have looked great.
Some say when we get Dermott and Hyman back then things will change.
I think Hyman will be a welcome shot in the arm but it might take him a while to get up to speed. Dermott, not so sure about him. He looked impressive when he first came up but seems to have stagnated a bit. Maybe it's the system (or lack thereof), maybe he needs more responsibility. We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: azzurri63 on October 24, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
I know I get a lot of flack on here as I come across harsh and constantly complaining about the coach, the system, the effort on a nightly basis, the lack of grit and intensity and I could go on.

Truth of the matter is it's true.

Really? The things you say over and over and over and over and over no matter what happens on the ice are things you think are true? Well, my goodness, that is a gamechanger.

So what's your take on this team?
Are you one of the ones who think mediocrity is ok? I'm not.
This team has so much more talent than 90% of this league yet we struggle and have committed  the same errors for eternity.
And as Chris has stated the guys he's mentioned who are new to the team, who make for the most part minimum salary have been some of our better players on a nightly basis.
Can't say that about the overpaid 3. I'll leave Tavares out of it because he's earned his salary but the other 3 should be ashamed of the way they play.


Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: azzurri63 on October 24, 2019, 08:10:47 PM
Some have stated we have new players and may need some time to gel.
Which is kind of funny since the new players (Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Timashov in particular) have looked great.
Some say when we get Dermott and Hyman back then things will change.
I think Hyman will be a welcome shot in the arm but it might take him a while to get up to speed. Dermott, not so sure about him. He looked impressive when he first came up but seems to have stagnated a bit. Maybe it's the system (or lack thereof), maybe he needs more responsibility. We'll see I guess.

You're bang on. Mikheyev and Timashov have looked great at least they hustle most shifts. More than can be said for the Fab 3.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 24, 2019, 08:19:06 PM
So what's your take on this team?

That they've gotten off to a bad start. Whether it's a temporary thing or indicative of a larger problem remains to be seen but teams usually play up to or down to their talent level.

I also know that in my however many years of being a Leafs fan every single time the team has been slumping people have blamed "the system" and said the players weren't working hard enough without actually having any actual specific remedies for motivating players or what changes to the system would make the club more effective. Almost like fans like saying things that superficially make them sound like they know what they're talking about but without making any concrete assertions that they could be judged against.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on October 24, 2019, 11:19:20 PM
A side yet related thought. The Leafs have lost to Boston two years in a row in the first round. Both those years saw the final games of the regular season be mostly unimportant.  I don't really care what happens in the regular season this year, other than making the playoffs. I've watched way less this season than I normally do because of that.

Fan version of load management.

Ya maybe. Three kids and an involved job kinda puts things into perspective too. What do I want to spend my time doing? Third periods are often spent reading to the kids. Come playoffs it will be the second period!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on October 24, 2019, 11:22:21 PM

Last year, the theme coming out of the off-season was that the Leafs had just signed one of the biggest UFA deals of all time. This year, the Leafs didn't do that and had an off-season dominated by supposed Leafs fans running down and taking whatever opportunity they could to call the team's talented young players selfish, overpaid and overrated.

So, yeah, there may be less enthusiasm for the team.

A side yet related thought. The Leafs have lost to Boston two years in a row in the first round. Both those years saw the final games of the regular season be mostly unimportant.  I don't really care what happens in the regular season this year, other than making the playoffs. I've watched way less this season than I normally do because of that.

So it's the destination and not the journey?   ;)

More like skipping the side missions and focusing on the main story line.  The journey starts round one.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Arn on October 25, 2019, 09:49:40 AM
To judge by the lack of discussion around here compared to previous seasons, I'm sensing a shortfall of enthusiasm for this team.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I wanted to see if there was any way to double-check this.

Last year the first 11 GDTs had a total of 1468 replies, which equals an average of 133 per game. The busiest thread had 219 replies and the slowest one had just 83.

This year the first 11 GDTS had a total of 2224 replies, which equals an average of 202 per game. The busiest thread had 332 replies and the slowest had 132.

Last years "General Discussion" thread had 83 posts from Oct 1st to Oct. 23rd. This years "General Discussion" thread had 141.

The Leafs have been playing worse than they were at the start of last year. I suspect if you analysed who had posted more it would be certain GDT posters who like to chime in when the going is... less good
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 25, 2019, 01:47:23 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 25, 2019, 02:00:03 PM
I knew Marner's 5 v 5 points totals weren't good but 2 in 11 games is horrible and sums up why his line, no matter who he plays with, is struggling.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 25, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
I knew Marner's 5 v 5 points totals weren't good but 2 in 11 games is horrible and sums up why his line, no matter who he plays with, is struggling.

A low 5v5 point total absolutely tells us that his line is struggling. I don't see that it tells us anything about why it's struggling.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 25, 2019, 03:56:54 PM
I knew Marner's 5 v 5 points totals weren't good but 2 in 11 games is horrible and sums up why his line, no matter who he plays with, is struggling.

A low 5v5 point total absolutely tells us that his line is struggling. I don't see that it tells us anything about why it's struggling.

No Tavares, No Hyman, PDO not in their favour etc. Lots not swinging their way off the bat.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on October 26, 2019, 09:39:58 PM
The leafs are losing 5-2 to the habs right now.  I'm starting to get a wee bit concerned.  Not sure where to point the blame but they need to start figuring things out and plugging whatever hole the team has.

When are Dermott and Hyman coming back?  Maybe that will help.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 26, 2019, 09:43:01 PM
The leafs are losing 5-2 to the habs right now.  I'm starting to get a wee bit concerned.  Not sure where to point the blame but they need to start figuring things out and plugging whatever hole the team has.

When are Dermott and Hyman coming back?  Maybe that will help.
Don't waste the energy. They will get it together eventually, hopefully lol. This team isn't a Hyman or Dermott away from getting their crap together. They will help tho.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on October 27, 2019, 08:34:09 PM
The leafs are losing 5-2 to the habs right now.  I'm starting to get a wee bit concerned.  Not sure where to point the blame but they need to start figuring things out and plugging whatever hole the team has.

When are Dermott and Hyman coming back?  Maybe that will help.
Don't waste the energy. They will get it together eventually, hopefully lol. This team isn't a Hyman or Dermott away from getting their crap together. They will help tho.
I think it's too early to panic or reach firm conclusions about the team.  That being said I think it would be great if they could somehow figure out some cap space flexibility.  I'm not sure if they can offload Ceci, and if they can I have no idea what they will have to pony up in terms of prospects/picks.  It kind of makes the Zeitsev trade seem stupid.  It was six of one for a half dozen of the other.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 27, 2019, 10:22:53 PM
The leafs are losing 5-2 to the habs right now.  I'm starting to get a wee bit concerned.  Not sure where to point the blame but they need to start figuring things out and plugging whatever hole the team has.

When are Dermott and Hyman coming back?  Maybe that will help.
Don't waste the energy. They will get it together eventually, hopefully lol. This team isn't a Hyman or Dermott away from getting their crap together. They will help tho.
I think it's too early to panic or reach firm conclusions about the team.  That being said I think it would be great if they could somehow figure out some cap space flexibility.  I'm not sure if they can offload Ceci, and if they can I have no idea what they will have to pony up in terms of prospects/picks.  It kind of makes the Zeitsev trade seem stupid.  It was six of one for a half dozen of the other.

I think to free up cap space they can trade Kapanen.  They probably wanted to see how some of the other guys were going to fit on the team before they started exploring this route.  A third line of Mikheyev - Kerfoot - Moore would be good.  It frees up 3 million in cap space.  Also, they could bring up Aberg or Bracco if someone gets hurt.  Target some team that needs speed on the wing and see what you can get. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 28, 2019, 09:44:17 AM
I think it's too early to panic or reach firm conclusions about the team.  That being said I think it would be great if they could somehow figure out some cap space flexibility.  I'm not sure if they can offload Ceci, and if they can I have no idea what they will have to pony up in terms of prospects/picks.  It kind of makes the Zeitsev trade seem stupid.  It was six of one for a half dozen of the other.

1.  No, the Zaitsev trade was definitely not stupid.  We needed the future cap hit gone to give us flexibility to spend that money on better d-men down the line (and preferably this year, but Ceci is what happened- there wasn't much else available aside from Gardiner and his ask was too high when Ceci was signed)

2.  I don't care if we trade Ceci for a bag of pucks.  As long as he's not a negative asset where we have to give up something else to trade him.  I'd rather have Dermott in the top-4 and Sandin called up from the Marlies:

Muzzin-Barrie
Rielly-Dermott
Sandin-Holl
7th D (Marincin or Gravel)


EDIT:  Also, if Babs insists on putting Rielly out there against the opposition top lines maybe its time to give up on the handedness thing for Rielly and put him with our best defensive defenseman:

Muzzin-Rielly
Dermott-Barrie
Sandin-Holl
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 28, 2019, 11:04:00 AM

Dermott looks poised to return tomorrow night. Rielly missed yet another practice, so Gravel is just filling in for him there.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 28, 2019, 11:05:54 AM
I think it's too early to panic or reach firm conclusions about the team.  That being said I think it would be great if they could somehow figure out some cap space flexibility.  I'm not sure if they can offload Ceci, and if they can I have no idea what they will have to pony up in terms of prospects/picks.  It kind of makes the Zeitsev trade seem stupid.  It was six of one for a half dozen of the other.

1.  No, the Zaitsev trade was definitely not stupid.  We needed the future cap hit gone to give us flexibility to spend that money on better d-men down the line (and preferably this year, but Ceci is what happened- there wasn't much else available aside from Gardiner and his ask was too high when Ceci was signed)

2.  I don't care if we trade Ceci for a bag of pucks.  As long as he's not a negative asset where we have to give up something else to trade him.  I'd rather have Dermott in the top-4 and Sandin called up from the Marlies:

Muzzin-Barrie
Rielly-Dermott
Sandin-Holl
7th D (Marincin or Gravel)


EDIT:  Also, if Babs insists on putting Rielly out there against the opposition top lines maybe its time to give up on the handedness thing for Rielly and put him with our best defensive defenseman:

Muzzin-Rielly
Dermott-Barrie
Sandin-Holl

A+ to those D pairings.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on October 28, 2019, 11:54:13 AM
Dermott looks poised to return tomorrow night. Rielly missed yet another practice, so Gravel is just filling in for him there.

Would we have to see someone on waivers at noon in order for Dermott to come off LTIR?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 28, 2019, 11:58:25 AM
Dermott looks poised to return tomorrow night. Rielly missed yet another practice, so Gravel is just filling in for him there.

Would we have to see someone on waivers at noon in order for Dermott to come off LTIR?

Gravel or Petan can go back down immediately.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on October 28, 2019, 12:57:22 PM
Gravel or Petan can go back down immediately.

That looks like all that needs to happen in order for Dermott to come back.

They'll have a couple more weeks to figure out what to do when Hyman is ready.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 28, 2019, 02:04:24 PM
Dermott looks poised to return tomorrow night. Rielly missed yet another practice, so Gravel is just filling in for him there.

Would we have to see someone on waivers at noon in order for Dermott to come off LTIR?

Gravel or Petan can go back down immediately.

I feel bad for Petan but he's clearly not going to get an opportunity with the team.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 28, 2019, 02:50:49 PM
Dermott looks poised to return tomorrow night. Rielly missed yet another practice, so Gravel is just filling in for him there.

Would we have to see someone on waivers at noon in order for Dermott to come off LTIR?

Gravel or Petan can go back down immediately.

I feel bad for Petan but he's clearly not going to get an opportunity with the team.
Not with Babs as head coach.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 28, 2019, 02:59:52 PM
I feel bad for Petan but he's clearly not going to get an opportunity with the team.
Not with Babs as head coach.

He couldn't make Winnipeg. He can't make the Leafs. 30 teams declined to claim him on waivers this month. Petan seems like a nice guy and it's possible that he can still put everything together, but at this stage in his career it's more likely that he just isn't an above replacement level NHLer.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 28, 2019, 03:06:15 PM
I feel bad for Petan but he's clearly not going to get an opportunity with the team.
Not with Babs as head coach.

He couldn't make Winnipeg. He can't make the Leafs. 30 teams declined to claim him on waivers this month. Petan seems like a nice guy and it's possible that he can still put everything together, but at this stage in his career it's more likely that he just isn't an above replacement level NHLer.
Probably not but Babs never gave him a shot here. He's played 9 games for the Leafs since trade deadline.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 28, 2019, 03:19:03 PM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/10/28/20934527/toronto-maple-leafs-standings-points-mike-bacock-corsi-luck-pdo-frederik-andersen-auston-matthews

In summary, let us have emotional reactions to the score.

Going by the 6 pts every 5 game segment gauge that the coach likes to use:
1. 5 pts | 5 Points per Segment
2. 7 pts | 6 pps
3. 2 pts | 2 games to go
4 B2Bs in this current span. The last two came inside the span of 6 days and we picked up 3 pts; Leafs picked up 5 pts off their first two sets of B2Bs.

For fun: Tampa Bay
1. 5 pts | 5 pps
2. 7 pts | 6 pps
3. not played yet
1 B2B in the first week and they lost both games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 28, 2019, 04:39:36 PM
The Leafs are finding ways load managing Andersen:

Quote
One thing the organization is doing to limit his wear and tear is lightening his load at practice. A day before the Leafs hosted the Bruins earlier this month, with a third goalie on hand to mop up some extra shots, Andersen was on the ice for only 10 minutes of practice.


https://theathletic.com/1312473/2019/10/28/monday-morning-leafs-report-imminent-lineup-changes-kasperi-kapanen-at-home-again-new-opportunity-for-nic-petan/
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 29, 2019, 10:35:17 AM
The Leafs are finding ways load managing Andersen:

Quote
One thing the organization is doing to limit his wear and tear is lightening his load at practice. A day before the Leafs hosted the Bruins earlier this month, with a third goalie on hand to mop up some extra shots, Andersen was on the ice for only 10 minutes of practice.


https://theathletic.com/1312473/2019/10/28/monday-morning-leafs-report-imminent-lineup-changes-kasperi-kapanen-at-home-again-new-opportunity-for-nic-petan/

Oh great, instead of actual game rest they'll give him practice rest and use that to explain how it's ok he played 70 games this year.  ::)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 29, 2019, 10:50:17 AM
Oh great, instead of actual game rest they'll give him practice rest and use that to explain how it's ok he played 70 games this year.  ::)

Come on now, the Leafs have 14 B2Bs this season. So Andersen will only play 68 games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 29, 2019, 10:52:12 AM
Oh great, instead of actual game rest they'll give him practice rest and use that to explain how it's ok he played 70 games this year.  ::)

Come on now, the Leafs have 14 B2Bs this season. So Andersen will only play 68 games.
Haven't they played 9 of them as yet?  :o
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 29, 2019, 11:00:59 AM

Hyman coming back before Tavares would have caused some additional cap space problems, so I'm sure the Leafs aren't too bummed about this.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 29, 2019, 01:50:44 PM
We're like 13 games into these new deals for Marner and Matthews...Marner is pacing 94 points, and Matthews is pacing a 55 goal season.  Tough to get real critical on price/performance on the offensive production.

The fact that the Leafs are 3rd last in the league in goals against is more of an issue here, bettering only LA and Florida, but I take it there aren't any price/performance issues for the cap hits on the d-men, and everybody thinks Andersen will bounce back from his current 36th place .904 SV%.

I don't think we're talking about any offense price/production issues on this team, it's getting them to play tighter defence without snuffing out the offense that's the opportunity here.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 29, 2019, 01:59:58 PM
It's pretty crazy to see that Marner's on pace for 94 points when even his biggest fans would agree that he hasn't been himself this season.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 29, 2019, 02:05:14 PM
Oh great, instead of actual game rest they'll give him practice rest and use that to explain how it's ok he played 70 games this year.  ::)

Come on now, the Leafs have 14 B2Bs this season. So Andersen will only play 68 games.

14 back to backs, doesn't that mean that Hutch plays only 7?  So that's 75 games for Andersen.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 29, 2019, 02:06:59 PM
It's pretty crazy to see that Marner's on pace for 94 points when even his biggest fans would agree that he hasn't been himself this season.

Good problem to have?  If Mitch and Tavares pick it up and look like they did last season, the second half of the season could be really fun.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 29, 2019, 02:07:30 PM
14 back to backs, doesn't that mean that Hutch plays only 7?  So that's 75 games for Andersen.

14 back to backs = 28 games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 29, 2019, 02:08:35 PM
14 back to backs, doesn't that mean that Hutch plays only 7?  So that's 75 games for Andersen.

14 back to backs = 28 games.

Can you tell I've been out of school a long time?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 29, 2019, 02:09:43 PM
What would happen if Andersen was injured for like 4 weeks?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 29, 2019, 02:12:31 PM
What would happen if Andersen was injured for like 4 weeks?

Why would you even?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Strangelove on October 29, 2019, 02:14:14 PM
It's pretty crazy to see that Marner's on pace for 94 points when even his biggest fans would agree that he hasn't been himself this season.

He's been a massive liability 5 on 5 while getting a few lucky second assists with the empty net and PP.

His point totals do not reflect his actual value to the team at the moment and I think fans recognize that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on October 29, 2019, 02:17:47 PM
It's pretty crazy to see that Marner's on pace for 94 points when even his biggest fans would agree that he hasn't been himself this season.

He's been a massive liability 5 on 5 while getting a few lucky second assists with the empty net and PP.

His point totals do not reflect his actual value to the team at the moment and I think fans recognize that.

They don't ask how, they ask how many.  ;D
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Boston Leaf on October 29, 2019, 02:18:52 PM
What would happen if Andersen was injured for like 4 weeks?

we could maybe get picks back at deadline for a few guys then
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 29, 2019, 02:46:41 PM
Well, this doesnít look uplifting (crap you, schedule-makers!)...


Of course, thereís always room for change.  Letís stay optimistic.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 29, 2019, 03:21:50 PM
What would happen if Andersen was injured for like 4 weeks?

Why would you even?

I mean, it's something that *could* happen, can't pretend otherwise.  Tampa had their #1 goalie injured for a stretch last year.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 29, 2019, 04:34:41 PM
So, what does the team look like next week when Tavares and Hyman return?

Johnsson - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Mikheyev - Kerfoot - Kapanen
Moore - Gauthier - Spezza

Rielly - Ceci
Muzzin - Barrie
Dermott - Holl

Andersen - Hutchinson

My Capfriendly calculation shows this gives them $897K worth of cap space, so they theoretically could keep an extra player on the roster.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on October 29, 2019, 04:42:54 PM
What would happen if Andersen was injured for like 4 weeks?

Is that Marleau draft pick lottery protected?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 29, 2019, 04:58:30 PM
What would happen if Andersen was injured for like 4 weeks?

Is that Marleau draft pick lottery protected?

It's top 10 protected.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 29, 2019, 07:02:22 PM
We're like 13 games into these new deals for Marner and Matthews...Marner is pacing 94 points, and Matthews is pacing a 55 goal season.  Tough to get real critical on price/performance on the offensive production.

The fact that the Leafs are 3rd last in the league in goals against is more of an issue here, bettering only LA and Florida, but I take it there aren't any price/performance issues for the cap hits on the d-men, and everybody thinks Andersen will bounce back from his current 36th place .904 SV%.

I don't think we're talking about any offense price/production issues on this team, it's getting them to play tighter defence without snuffing out the offense that's the opportunity here.
I think it was the last game Freddie played where they mentioned if you take away that stinker when he let in 7 his save percentage is like 940 or something like that.
This team needs to play a different style of D. Babs system doesn't work and hasn't worked in the first 4 years and going into the 5th. Too many times they are out of position because of chasing guys during their coverage. Perhaps they need to dumb it down. Pretty sad though that the personnel has changed but the results haven't.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 30, 2019, 12:11:10 PM

Tavares back with Marner at practice. That's usually a sign an injured player is ready to return but Babcock said yesterday he didn't expect Tavares back this weekend. Guess we'll wait and see.

Rielly and Muzzin were unsurprisingly absent.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 30, 2019, 01:06:24 PM
What's the deal with Rielly missing practices?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 30, 2019, 01:09:08 PM
Thank whomever that Dermott is back.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 30, 2019, 01:14:19 PM
What's the deal with Rielly missing practices?
I noticed Rielly had some kind of stagger steps last night,  may have some low grade sprain or heavy bruising, don't think he is up to par.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 30, 2019, 01:28:43 PM
And what's the word on Muzzin?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 30, 2019, 01:55:53 PM
And what's the word on Muzzin?

Charley horse. Should be okay to play.

What's the deal with Rielly missing practices?

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 30, 2019, 02:35:42 PM
Thanks herman.  Good it wasn't worse.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 30, 2019, 02:54:32 PM
Thanks herman.  Good it wasn't worse.

He might still miss a game or two, or be ready for Philly. He's pretty important, so I don't mind if they err on the side of caution.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 30, 2019, 03:00:32 PM
He's pretty important, so I don't mind if they err on the side of caution.

*stares at Rielly*
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 30, 2019, 03:30:00 PM
He's pretty important, so I don't mind if they err on the side of caution.

*stares at Rielly*

*stares at salary cap*
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 30, 2019, 03:30:57 PM
He's pretty important, so I don't mind if they err on the side of caution.

*stares at Rielly*

Charley horse / bruises are not injuries that get worse.  The question is, can favouring that kind of injury cause a different one?  I'd guess that the sports science division is saying less is more, no practice until the bruise is healed so he's not favouring it more than he needs to.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 30, 2019, 03:58:25 PM
Quote
9. Jake Muzzinís health could change this, but Toronto would move Martin Marincin.
My heart hurts
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 30, 2019, 04:27:56 PM
Don't worry, even if he gets moved Dubas will just re-sign him again in the offseason.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 30, 2019, 05:14:33 PM
Quote
9. Jake Muzzinís health could change this, but Toronto would move Martin Marincin.
My heart hurts

Would rather get something than nothing. Load up on them 7th rounders lol.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 31, 2019, 02:36:50 AM
Some reasonings on what ails the Leafs power-play:

Quote
There appear to be a whole host of things ailing Torontoís PP right now. Theyíre struggling to enter the zone with control, using an odd new-look drop pass routine that seems to sap their momentum in the neutral zone.

Theyíre also not generating enough high-danger opportunities, in part because Marner is taking so many of the shots from the left circle.

In talking to several former NHLers who were at the game on Tuesday, they pointed to the fact that the Leafs lack enough one-timer threats as a key problem.


https://theathletic.com/1335635/2019/10/30/mirtle-notebook-alex-ovechkins-call-out-mike-babcocks-response-and-another-injury-scare-for-the-maple-leafs/ (https://theathletic.com/1335635/2019/10/30/mirtle-notebook-alex-ovechkins-call-out-mike-babcocks-response-and-another-injury-scare-for-the-maple-leafs/)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on October 31, 2019, 11:41:08 AM
Some reasonings on what ails the Leafs power-play:

Quote
There appear to be a whole host of things ailing Torontoís PP right now. Theyíre struggling to enter the zone with control, using an odd new-look drop pass routine that seems to sap their momentum in the neutral zone.

Theyíre also not generating enough high-danger opportunities, in part because Marner is taking so many of the shots from the left circle.

In talking to several former NHLers who were at the game on Tuesday, they pointed to the fact that the Leafs lack enough one-timer threats as a key problem.


https://theathletic.com/1335635/2019/10/30/mirtle-notebook-alex-ovechkins-call-out-mike-babcocks-response-and-another-injury-scare-for-the-maple-leafs/ (https://theathletic.com/1335635/2019/10/30/mirtle-notebook-alex-ovechkins-call-out-mike-babcocks-response-and-another-injury-scare-for-the-maple-leafs/)

I actually found the powerplay pretty dangerous against Washington.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 31, 2019, 12:32:44 PM
https://theleafsnation.com/2019/10/31/how-the-returns-of-tavares-and-hyman-will-impact-the-maple-leafs-salary-cap/

Wheeeee
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 31, 2019, 07:42:09 PM
Interesting tidbit on Kerfoot, his father is one of the owner of MLS Vancouver Whitecaps. That means he comes from big money, big time.  No problem with that, I love his game a lot, just good trivia.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 31, 2019, 08:28:47 PM
Interesting tidbit on Kerfoot, his father is one of the owner of MLS Vancouver Whitecaps. That means he comes from big money, big time.  No problem with that, I love his game a lot, just good trivia.
Now I know why he insists on going by Alexander [emoji1]
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2019, 09:40:45 AM

This wasn't exactly necessary for Tavares' return, but it probably means it's more likely now.

edit: actually looks like today would have been his 30th day on the Leafs roster since clearing waivers. So if he wasn't reassigned now he would have needed waivers again to go back down.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2019, 11:31:46 AM

Muzzin looks like he might potentially be out tomorrow. Tavares looks in. Nylander goes back to the PP2 and Mikheyev is going to start getting some powerplay minutes.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 01, 2019, 11:32:16 AM
So Doug Gilmour has taken on a role in the organization
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2019, 11:37:01 AM
So Doug Gilmour has taken on a role in the organization

"Community representative". So it's not like a front office or coaching position like he's had with Kingston.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 11:39:08 AM
Nylander > Marner on PP1 pls
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2019, 11:42:41 AM
Nylander > Marner on PP1 pls

To Marner's credit he does lead the team in powerplay points. It's the one area of the game where he's most looked like himself. He needs to stop forcing shots (or go back to the right side), but I'm good with him there.

Personally I'd load up the top unit by keeping Nylander in the bumper spot and moving Tavares back to the front of the net. But if they want to save some talent for PP2 I get it being Nylander.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 11:52:12 AM
Marnerís pretty effective on the powerplay if he isnít shooting from above the circles. When heís shooting, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, and even Rielly are not getting shots.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2019, 11:55:14 AM
Marnerís pretty effective on the powerplay if he isnít shooting from above the circles. When heís shooting, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, and even Rielly are not getting shots.

He's shooting at about twice the rate he was last season. Matthews' shot rates are about the same (actually slightly higher). Tavares, bafflingly enough, didn't take a single shot on the powerplay prior to his injury. edit: to clarify, I mean he hasn't had a shot on net.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 12:23:24 PM
Marnerís pretty effective on the powerplay if he isnít shooting from above the circles. When heís shooting, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, and even Rielly are not getting shots.

He's shooting at about twice the rate he was last season. Matthews' shot rates are about the same (actually slightly higher). Tavares, bafflingly enough, didn't take a single shot on the powerplay prior to his injury. edit: to clarify, I mean he hasn't had a shot on net.

I know theyíre trying to draw the PK check off of Matthews a bit to keep them honest. I think Nylander on the other flank has proven to be a very effective complement and other-threat to Matthewsí ridiculous catch and release.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 12:48:58 PM

Oh... k
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 12:53:00 PM

This is different-ish from Mastersí lineup, but more fun yes?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 01, 2019, 01:00:12 PM

This is different-ish from Mastersí lineup, but more fun yes?
But he amen-d it an hour later saying actual line up..
Rielly /CC
Dermott/Holl
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2019, 01:09:45 PM
This is different-ish from Mastersí lineup, but more fun yes?
But he amen-d it an hour later saying actual line up..
Rielly /CC
Dermott/Holl

I've said this before, never go to Henny for lines. He's probably due for an appointment with the optometrist.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 01, 2019, 01:14:02 PM
Maybe they'll trade Marincin to the Flyers before the game starts and he can play for them.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 01, 2019, 01:15:04 PM
And has anyone else noticed that the Leafs have absolutely fallen apart since they sent Sandin down?

IMA. JUST. SAYIN. THAT.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 01, 2019, 01:28:45 PM
And has anyone else noticed that the Leafs have absolutely fallen apart since they sent Sandin down?

IMA. JUST. SAYIN. THAT.

http://explosm.net/comics/3668/
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 01:31:50 PM
This is different-ish from Mastersí lineup, but more fun yes?
But he amen-d it an hour later saying actual line up..
Rielly /CC
Dermott/Holl

I've said this before, never go to Henny for lines. He's probably due for an appointment with the optometrist.

I definitely remembered your wise words before extolling the virtues of Justin Holl, re: Hennyís Tweets, but all I was saying was it was more fun that way.

What I think happens is more situational pairings than concrete groups.

Marincin-Ceci for a DZ draw, Rielly-Barrie for the occasional fun time. Dermott-Holl, Marincin-Holl are all viable options as well. Marincin-Barrie could be weird fun to see who would give up the puck in the most unlikely and disastrous way possible.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on November 01, 2019, 01:40:41 PM
My preferred PP lineup:

Rielly
Marner - Tavares - Matthews
Johnsson

Barrie
Matthews - Kerfoot - Nylander 
Tavares

Keep Matthews and Tavares (but especially Matthews) out the whole time. Make the other guys work.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on November 01, 2019, 01:42:18 PM
Also, more speed through the neutral zone on the pp.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Strangelove on November 01, 2019, 02:06:23 PM
And has anyone else noticed that the Leafs have absolutely fallen apart since they sent Sandin down?

IMA. JUST. SAYIN. THAT.

Do we know why he is in the minors? Is it only for control? He's a better option than 3 of their current top 6.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 02:15:44 PM
And has anyone else noticed that the Leafs have absolutely fallen apart since they sent Sandin down?

IMA. JUST. SAYIN. THAT.

Do we know why he is in the minors? Is it only for control? He's a better option than 3 of their current top 6.

In the NHL, Sandin is:
$$$, they want to shelter his confidence so no PK or top NHL minutes, they have Rielly and Barrie already so no PP

In the AHL, Sandin can:
Play top pair, play PP, play PK, do everything and play 30 min a night to even out some inconsistencies in his game (he's got some risky giveaway issues)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 01, 2019, 02:43:32 PM
And has anyone else noticed that the Leafs have absolutely fallen apart since they sent Sandin down?

IMA. JUST. SAYIN. THAT.

Do we know why he is in the minors? Is it only for control? He's a better option than 3 of their current top 6.

In the NHL, Sandin is:
$$$, they want to shelter his confidence so no PK or top NHL minutes, they have Rielly and Barrie already so no PP

In the AHL, Sandin can:
Play top pair, play PP, play PK, do everything and play 30 min a night to even out some inconsistencies in his game (he's got some risky giveaway issues)

All true.

But Strangelove is right too.  The question is how much will he gain at the margins in the AHL vs. making mistakes on the job with the Leafs.  A not unreasonable approach would be to let him play the PK and gradually ramp up his minutes.

We've already hashed through whether letting him play with the Marlies this year is undercutting their short-term investments in Barrie/Muzzin.  I think it does.

And, to return to my original post, it's only half-facetious.  The defense has looked worse since he left.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on November 01, 2019, 03:05:34 PM
And, to return to my original post, it's only half-facetious.  The defense has looked worse since he left.

Point percentage for the team has been pretty close before and after his demotion though.

.583  before vs. .563 after

1 extra point after would raise it to .625
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: 4EVRLEAFAN on November 01, 2019, 03:43:25 PM
Didn't know where to put this but I just read that Gilmour is coming back.
https://www.tsn.ca/doug-gilmour-leaves-ohl-s-frontenacs-for-role-with-toronto-maple-leafs-1.1390829
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 01, 2019, 04:38:46 PM
And, to return to my original post, it's only half-facetious.  The defense has looked worse since he left.

Point percentage for the team has been pretty close before and after his demotion though.

.583  before vs. .563 after

1 extra point after would raise it to .625

Yes, .563 is worser than .583.  It is worser.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2019, 04:52:34 PM

Look at this epic skill that is definitely worth a 1st rd pick
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 02, 2019, 08:17:43 AM
The doctor is in.  Along with Dr. Marie-Claire Bourque and Nik Antropov (whose official title is ďskills development consultant), Dr. Meg Popovic, a ďcertified professional life coachĒ, is another important member of the organizationís staff trained in mental health & well-being:

Dubas:
Quote
ďWe wanted to formalize to everyone who is a part of the Leafs that we believe that if a team membersí mental health and well-being were not being constantly supported and cared for, that their talent as athletes and staff would not matter much,Ē Dubas said via email.Ē

Dr. Popovic:
Quote
ďIn this high performance, hyper-masculine, hyper-competitive big business, where theyíre the commodity, itís very rare that they have a container whereas they move from 18 to 26, 28 years old, they have support in figuring out who they want to be.Ē

Quote
Alternate captain Morgan Rielly said he wants to make sure his teammates support each other in their own mental wellness by removing the stigma that is often associated with asking for help in such a hyper-masculine sport.

ďMental health is important in todayís day and age,Ē he said. ďAs athletes, we take it seriously. Sheís obviously available for that reason.Ē
ďIt speaks volumes about where weíre at as an organization in terms of how we view that, in particular, but thereís many other things that would lead one to believe that we have a pulse on whatís going on.Ē


https://theathletic.com/1277166/2019/11/02/meet-dr-meg-popovic-the-woman-charged-with-helping-the-maple-leafs-mental-well-being/ (https://theathletic.com/1277166/2019/11/02/meet-dr-meg-popovic-the-woman-charged-with-helping-the-maple-leafs-mental-well-being/)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 02, 2019, 08:59:30 AM
This is an important profile on how Dubas and Shanahan are supporting this team. Thanks for sharing Hf1.

Her name is Dr. Meg Popovic btw
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 02, 2019, 10:19:09 AM
This is an important profile on how Dubas and Shanahan are supporting this team. Thanks for sharing Hf1.

Her name is Dr. Meg Popovic btw


Thank you, herman.  P.S. Name corrected.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 04, 2019, 10:56:03 AM

Thread

See Willy responsibly covering for his defense regularly.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 04, 2019, 11:10:00 AM

On the bubble:
Ceci
Marincin
Spezza
Shore
Timashov

Trading Ceci solves a lot of cap problems in one fell swoop.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 04, 2019, 02:48:36 PM
Didn't know where to put this but I just read that Gilmour is coming back.
https://www.tsn.ca/doug-gilmour-leaves-ohl-s-frontenacs-for-role-with-toronto-maple-leafs-1.1390829
He's the new Centre we have all been looking for, "The Killer"
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 05, 2019, 09:08:06 AM
Trading Ceci solves a lot of cap problems in one fell swoop.

How much salary do the Leafs need to eat to trade Ceci without having to take a sh*t contract back?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 05, 2019, 09:20:03 AM
Trading Ceci solves a lot of cap problems in one fell swoop.

How much salary do the Leafs need to eat to trade Ceci without having to take a sh*t contract back?

Erik Gudbranson got traded for a 2021 7th and a minor leaguer. Cody Ceci plays top 4 minutes (for Mike Babcock) and that's all some GMs really care about (see the contracts given to Zaitsev, Russell, Alzner, MacDonald, Girardi, Lindell).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 05, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
Trading Ceci solves a lot of cap problems in one fell swoop.

How much salary do the Leafs need to eat to trade Ceci without having to take a sh*t contract back?

Erik Gudbranson got traded for a 2021 7th and a minor leaguer. Cody Ceci plays top 4 minutes (for Mike Babcock) and that's all some GMs really care about (see the contracts given to Zaitsev, Russell, Alzner, MacDonald, Girardi, Lindell).

If Dubas doesn't get this done, him and Shanahan should be fired. Babcock too.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 05, 2019, 09:40:56 AM
If Dubas doesn't get this done, him and Shanahan should be fired. Babcock too.

While I wouldn't personally go that far, it is interesting to me that they tied up 4.5M in one player in a year they knew they had to start on the LTIR with at least 2.25M + 0.863M about to drop a cap bomb into the roster mid November.

To my (untrained) eye, Justin Holl, as I've said for like 2 years now, can play a role here. Travis Dermott, given an opportunity to ramp back up to speed, can play RD situationally. Martin Marincin, as loathe as some people here might be to the notion, can play RD situationally.

Muzzin - Barrie
Rielly - Marincin
Dermott - Holl

Swap Dermott and Marincin for OZ face offs.
PK will be more of an adventure but it kind of already is one, so this is just the same thing + $$$.

Heck, call up Sandin because you can afford to now.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 05, 2019, 10:25:22 AM
Why did they recall Petan?  Hyman not coming back anytime soon?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 05, 2019, 12:49:13 PM
Why did they recall Petan?  Hyman not coming back anytime soon?
Im really curious about this. I think I read somewhere that his recovery isn't going as well as they thought but I'm not exactly sure.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 05, 2019, 01:14:37 PM
A trade perhaps?  Ceci, Hyman, Bracco some decent D guy making 3 to 4 a year.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 05, 2019, 01:50:46 PM
Why did they recall Petan?  Hyman not coming back anytime soon?
Im really curious about this. I think I read somewhere that his recovery isn't going as well as they thought but I'm not exactly sure.
I recall hearing he was slated to be back by mid November. It's pretty much 6 months to the day he had surgery. Perhaps the Leafs docs won't clear him until the Leafs trade/make a decision on who goes? I like the conspiracy theory better!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 05, 2019, 02:13:45 PM
Why did they recall Petan?  Hyman not coming back anytime soon?
Im really curious about this. I think I read somewhere that his recovery isn't going as well as they thought but I'm not exactly sure.
I recall hearing he was slated to be back by mid November. It's pretty much 6 months to the day he had surgery. Perhaps the Leafs docs won't clear him until the Leafs trade/make a decision on who goes? I like the conspiracy theory better!

Me too!

Seriously they have not been mentioning him in the same breath as Dermott or Johnny T, but saying soon come mon.  I don't think Hyman is going anywhere except on the first line with Auston and Willie Boy.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on November 05, 2019, 03:20:46 PM
Why did they recall Petan?  Hyman not coming back anytime soon?

Leafs Lunch said it was possibly a showcase or a reward for how he has handled the situation this year.  Lebrun said he thinks teams may be interested but want to see him in NHL games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 05, 2019, 03:28:12 PM
Leafs Lunch said it was possibly a showcase or a reward for how he has handled the situation this year.  Lebrun said he thinks teams may be interested but want to see him in NHL games.

That was my reaction when I heard he was in.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 05, 2019, 03:41:40 PM
Petan will get one game, then Hyman is back maybe Thursday, then it's all over for a bunch of those guys until they get some cap space.

Can they get 21 guys under the cap, or is it going to be 20?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 05, 2019, 04:42:09 PM
Why did they recall Petan?  Hyman not coming back anytime soon?
Im really curious about this. I think I read somewhere that his recovery isn't going as well as they thought but I'm not exactly sure.
I recall hearing he was slated to be back by mid November. It's pretty much 6 months to the day he had surgery. Perhaps the Leafs docs won't clear him until the Leafs trade/make a decision on who goes? I like the conspiracy theory better!

Me too!

Seriously they have not been mentioning him in the same breath as Dermott or Johnny T, but saying soon come mon.  I don't think Hyman is going anywhere except on the first line with Auston and Willie Boy.
Very true. I don't know if he's going with Matthews though. Would figure with JT but I wouldn't be opposed to it. I would like to see a different left winger on that line. Mikheyev perhaps should get a shot.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 06, 2019, 06:10:51 AM
If Dubas doesn't get this done, him and Shanahan should be fired. Babcock too.

While I wouldn't personally go that far, it is interesting to me that they tied up 4.5M in one player in a year they knew they had to start on the LTIR with at least 2.25M + 0.863M about to drop a cap bomb into the roster mid November.

To my (untrained) eye, Justin Holl, as I've said for like 2 years now, can play a role here. Travis Dermott, given an opportunity to ramp back up to speed, can play RD situationally. Martin Marincin, as loathe as some people here might be to the notion, can play RD situationally.

Muzzin - Barrie
Rielly - Marincin
Dermott - Holl

Swap Dermott and Marincin for OZ face offs.
PK will be more of an adventure but it kind of already is one, so this is just the same thing + $$$.

Heck, call up Sandin because you can afford to now.

I was kidding really. I was just investigating what it felt like to run around screaming for people to be fired. It was weird. I'm back to not caring what they do with their money.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on November 06, 2019, 09:05:15 AM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 06, 2019, 09:10:29 AM

I can understand this chart cause blue is the colour of the Leafs and represents all that is good and right with the world and red represents the Habs, the evil in the hearts of all men.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 06, 2019, 09:30:02 AM
I was kidding really. I was just investigating what it felt like to run around screaming for people to be fired. It was weird. I'm back to not caring what they do with their money.

That was difficult sarcasm to detect! Although considering who was posting, I really should have twigged to that instead of ruining your joke (which is unfortunately on brand for me).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 06, 2019, 10:53:32 AM
I was kidding really. I was just investigating what it felt like to run around screaming for people to be fired. It was weird. I'm back to not caring what they do with their money.

That was difficult sarcasm to detect! Although considering who was posting, I really should have twigged to that instead of ruining your joke (which is unfortunately on brand for me).

The best sarcasm is those that are hard to detect. Next time I'll put a winky face in there for you
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 06, 2019, 04:45:21 PM
Leafs play Thursday, and then back-to-back games on Saturday and Sunday. So a potential return for Sunday?

This would be surprising to me, but we'll see. Has nothing to do with how I feel about Marincin, but carrying 7 defencemen just seems like the logical move. Especially with whatever is going on with Rielly. But it means that they'll be able to keep two of Shore/Spezza/Timashov on the roster instead of just one. Maybe they just need more time to figure out what to do with Spezza.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 06, 2019, 06:18:07 PM
Leafs play Thursday, and then back-to-back games on Saturday and Sunday. So a potential return for Sunday?

This would be surprising to me, but we'll see. Has nothing to do with how I feel about Marincin, but carrying 7 defencemen just seems like the logical move. Especially with whatever is going on with Rielly. But it means that they'll be able to keep two of Shore/Spezza/Timashov on the roster instead of just one. Maybe they just need more time to figure out what to do with Spezza.
The only time you really need any extras is on the road, even then if it's not the west coast, getting a flight isn't a big deal. Having the farm team in Toronto is huge. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle this.
Curious note about Spezza and Shore though. I wonder who he goes with. Shore is at 60% and Spezza is at just over 50%. Spezza is more offensive tho so it'll be interesting.
Anyway Babs stated last night that Hyman will be taking the D zone, PK draws on the right side so something has to give.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 06, 2019, 06:37:20 PM
Leafs play Thursday, and then back-to-back games on Saturday and Sunday. So a potential return for Sunday?

This would be surprising to me, but we'll see. Has nothing to do with how I feel about Marincin, but carrying 7 defencemen just seems like the logical move. Especially with whatever is going on with Rielly. But it means that they'll be able to keep two of Shore/Spezza/Timashov on the roster instead of just one. Maybe they just need more time to figure out what to do with Spezza.
The only time you really need any extras is on the road, even then if it's not the west coast, getting a flight isn't a big deal. Having the farm team in Toronto is huge. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle this.
Curious note about Spezza and Shore though. I wonder who he goes with. Shore is at 60% and Spezza is at just over 50%. Spezza is more offensive tho so it'll be interesting.
Anyway Babs stated last night that Hyman will be taking the D zone, PK draws on the right side so something has to give.




What are the rules? Say they have a few guys still assigned with the Marlies but just happen to take the flight with the Leafs?  If an injury happens on the trip they "call up" that player and voila he happens to already be there.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 06, 2019, 07:13:30 PM
Anyway Babs stated last night that Hyman will be taking the D zone, PK draws on the right side so something has to give.

Oh, that's interesting he said that. Right now the only guys really taking PK draws are Gauthier (on the left usually) and Shore (on the right usually). So if Hyman's penciled in to start taking Shore's draws then that really takes away a lot of his usefulness to the team. That sounds like the writing is on the wall for Shore. So I'm guessing him and Marincin are waivers bound. The 4th line will be Timashov-Gauthier-Moore. Spezza stays on the roster since he's a good utility guy who can help cover a forward injury anywhere in the line-up at any position.

If there's a non-LTIR injury to a defenceman, Mikheyev will likely need to be sent down to the Marlies temporarily to make room for a call-up as he's the only forward who doesn't require waivers.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 06, 2019, 07:21:40 PM
Leafs play Thursday, and then back-to-back games on Saturday and Sunday. So a potential return for Sunday?

This would be surprising to me, but we'll see. Has nothing to do with how I feel about Marincin, but carrying 7 defencemen just seems like the logical move. Especially with whatever is going on with Rielly. But it means that they'll be able to keep two of Shore/Spezza/Timashov on the roster instead of just one. Maybe they just need more time to figure out what to do with Spezza.
The only time you really need any extras is on the road, even then if it's not the west coast, getting a flight isn't a big deal. Having the farm team in Toronto is huge. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle this.
Curious note about Spezza and Shore though. I wonder who he goes with. Shore is at 60% and Spezza is at just over 50%. Spezza is more offensive tho so it'll be interesting.
Anyway Babs stated last night that Hyman will be taking the D zone, PK draws on the right side so something has to give.




What are the rules? Say they have a few guys still assigned with the Marlies but just happen to take the flight with the Leafs?  If an injury happens on the trip they "call up" that player and voila he happens to already be there.
Kind of. They get sent down on paper only. Mikheyev like CTB mentioned will be one of those. He may miss a game because he's waiver exempt and we may have to move a guy because of injury. Either that or go with a short roster for a game then they can use emergency roster whatever they call it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 06, 2019, 07:24:06 PM
Or you put Petan on a raft with a month food and water and set him adrift on the high seas.  He may pass Robidas Island and wave to the remaining inhabitants.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 06, 2019, 07:39:31 PM
Or you put Petan on a raft with a month food and water and set him adrift on the high seas.  He may pass Robidas Island and wave to the remaining inhabitants.


LOL.   And may I add, dole out cheese & wine to everyone once he lands.  😁
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 06, 2019, 07:48:35 PM
Anyway Babs stated last night that Hyman will be taking the D zone, PK draws on the right side so something has to give.

Oh, that's interesting he said that. Right now the only guys really taking PK draws are Gauthier (on the left usually) and Shore (on the right usually). So if Hyman's penciled in to start taking Shore's draws then that really takes away a lot of his usefulness to the team. That sounds like the writing is on the wall for Shore. So I'm guessing him and Marincin are waivers bound. The 4th line will be Timashov-Gauthier-Moore. Spezza stays on the roster since he's a good utility guy who can help cover a forward injury anywhere in the line-up at any position.

If there's a non-LTIR injury to a defenceman, Mikheyev will likely need to be sent down to the Marlies temporarily to make room for a call-up as he's the only forward who doesn't require waivers.

This is all a bit of a mess. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on November 06, 2019, 08:25:08 PM

If the next CBA doesn't have serious and substantial changes to the cap I may be done with this sport. The fact that this level of nonsense has become normalized as something fans should pay attention to is just absurd.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 06, 2019, 09:40:57 PM

If the next CBA doesn't have serious and substantial changes to the cap I may be done with this sport. The fact that this level of nonsense has become normalized as something fans should pay attention to is just absurd.

I support you.

OTOH it has provided an endless stream of material for hockey writers, and to the extent that it has displaced nothingburger speculation pieces, it's good.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 08:43:07 AM
Babcock talking up Spezzaís off ice qualities basically means heís being waived.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 07, 2019, 08:50:13 AM
Babcock talking up Spezzaís off ice qualities basically means heís being waived.

Babcock would want that in a 13th forward though because he's probably never seeing the ice.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 07, 2019, 09:02:58 AM
This is all a bit of a mess. 

What especially sucks is that we're only like just a little over $200k shy from being able to carry a 22nd player. Like if we didn't give Ceci that dumb $200k raise and Marner ended his AAV with 16 instead of 93 we might have been ok.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 07, 2019, 09:28:42 AM
This is all a bit of a mess. 

What especially sucks is that we're only like just a little over $200k shy from being able to carry a 22nd player. Like if we didn't give Ceci that dumb $200k raise and Marner ended his AAV with 16 instead of 93 we might have been ok.

I agree with you, and I think Dubas didn't get enough shit for the stupid extra $200K for Ceci knowing full well he wasn't even worth his qualifying offer.  Big dumb move, and I really don't care about whatever his rationale may have been there.

But at the same time, a few hundred grand off of Marner's deal, or Johnsson's, or Kapanen, or more retained for Barrie, or even Matthews' deal could have been shaved a bit, would have helped...but just because Marner was the last piece to sign doesn't really mean that it's Marner's deal that made the problem happen...unless you believe that Marner shouldn't have been signed to that high of a number in the first place.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 09:56:20 AM
Babcock talking up Spezzaís off ice qualities basically means heís being waived.

Babcock would want that in a 13th forward though because he's probably never seeing the ice.

Oh true. Happy to be there, player-coach fount of knowledge for the youth without compromising the on-ice talent level, and decent sub for when a forward injury hits.

18-34-88
11-91-16
65-15-24
41-33-42
19

44-83
8-94
23-3
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 07, 2019, 11:14:18 AM
I agree with you, and I think Dubas didn't get enough shit for the stupid extra $200K for Ceci knowing full well he wasn't even worth his qualifying offer.  Big dumb move, and I really don't care about whatever his rationale may have been there.

But at the same time, a few hundred grand off of Marner's deal, or Johnsson's, or Kapanen, or more retained for Barrie, or even Matthews' deal could have been shaved a bit, would have helped...but just because Marner was the last piece to sign doesn't really mean that it's Marner's deal that made the problem happen...unless you believe that Marner shouldn't have been signed to that high of a number in the first place.

Interesting... I think we should have a fullsome discussion on the relative value of Marner's deal. I'm sure it would lead to productive and clearly rationale arguments.

On the Ceci thing, I agree with you totally. I hoped I'd come to understand the reasoning for that contract over time. This has not happened. Is there some esoteric CBA reasoning behind offering that contract instead of just the qualifying offer?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 07, 2019, 12:06:24 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 12:24:52 PM
Early waive since we still have to move one off the roster for Hymanís activation.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 07, 2019, 12:30:34 PM
Wouldn't it be weird if Jets picked up Petan again?  Probably landing spot, Edmonton.
Marincin could help out someone. Who needs some Defensive help...Oh ya, Toronto..LOL
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on November 07, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
This is all a bit of a mess. 

What especially sucks is that we're only like just a little over $200k shy from being able to carry a 22nd player. Like if we didn't give Ceci that dumb $200k raise and Marner ended his AAV with 16 instead of 93 we might have been ok.

I agree with you, and I think Dubas didn't get enough shit for the stupid extra $200K for Ceci knowing full well he wasn't even worth his qualifying offer.  Big dumb move, and I really don't care about whatever his rationale may have been there.

But at the same time, a few hundred grand off of Marner's deal, or Johnsson's, or Kapanen, or more retained for Barrie, or even Matthews' deal could have been shaved a bit, would have helped...but just because Marner was the last piece to sign doesn't really mean that it's Marner's deal that made the problem happen...unless you believe that Marner shouldn't have been signed to that high of a number in the first place.

Gonna come out of the woodwork to nitpick.... Barrie already has the maximum amount retained by Colorado.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 07, 2019, 12:56:39 PM
This is all a bit of a mess. 

What especially sucks is that we're only like just a little over $200k shy from being able to carry a 22nd player. Like if we didn't give Ceci that dumb $200k raise and Marner ended his AAV with 16 instead of 93 we might have been ok.

I agree with you, and I think Dubas didn't get enough shit for the stupid extra $200K for Ceci knowing full well he wasn't even worth his qualifying offer.  Big dumb move, and I really don't care about whatever his rationale may have been there.

But at the same time, a few hundred grand off of Marner's deal, or Johnsson's, or Kapanen, or more retained for Barrie, or even Matthews' deal could have been shaved a bit, would have helped...but just because Marner was the last piece to sign doesn't really mean that it's Marner's deal that made the problem happen...unless you believe that Marner shouldn't have been signed to that high of a number in the first place.

Gonna come out of the woodwork to nitpick.... Barrie already has the maximum amount retained by Colorado.

Shut up Coco. Go back to your hole.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 12:57:35 PM
Gonna wonder aloud about what people were realistically expecting the Leafs to be able to do this offseason staring down Marleau's 3rd year, Zaitsev's contract/performance, and Marner's contract post-94-pt season, all the while needing to improve the defense with Gardiner and Hainsey coming off the books.

Keep in mind that a team's season opening lineup is (usually) a far cry from its season-ending one.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
Thread
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 07, 2019, 01:11:17 PM
Gonna wonder aloud about what people were realistically expecting the Leafs to be able to do this offseason staring down Marleau's 3rd year, Zaitsev's contract/performance, and Marner's contract post-94-pt season, all the while needing to improve the defense with Gardiner and Hainsey coming off the books.
I think Dubas did a great job getting rid of those contracts, especially Marleau's. Yeah CC is getting too much but so would Z for another 4 years or so.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on November 07, 2019, 01:11:31 PM
Gonna wonder aloud about what people were realistically expecting the Leafs to be able to do this offseason staring down Marleau's 3rd year, Zaitsev's contract/performance, and Marner's contract post-94-pt season, all the while needing to improve the defense with Gardiner and Hainsey coming off the books.

While the offseason was not a total clusterf**k, I think its realistic to expect:

1.  You won't overpay your 94-pt guy by at least 1M per season
2.  End up in a position where you can only have one spare player mostly because of #1
3.  End up in a position where you limit yourself to league minimum backup goalie options.  Decent goalie with 950k salary comes on waivers, nope gotta pass on him because he won't fit.

Not overpaying Ceci by 200k is also on the list of questionable decisions, but I'm not sure I see the math CtB was coming up with where that extra 200k is what is limiting us to only one spare.  With the roster as expected with Hyman back and one of Shore/Spezza/Timashov also waived/traded we are still in the 81.3M ballpark on active salaries (ie not including the LTIR guys).  An extra 200k on Ceci doesn't make room for another guy.  (It would however allow us to use a 1M backup goalie)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 07, 2019, 01:25:58 PM
Not overpaying Ceci by 200k is also on the list of questionable decisions, but I'm not sure I see the math CtB was coming up with where that extra 200k is what is limiting us to only one spare.  With the roster as expected with Hyman back and one of Shore/Spezza/Timashov also waived/traded we are still in the 81.3M ballpark on active salaries (ie not including the LTIR guys).  An extra 200k on Ceci doesn't make room for another guy.  (It would however allow us to use a 1M backup goalie)

Hmm, I coulda sworn when I was looking at a Marincin/Petan/Shore-less roster on CF earlier today it was showing just under $500k in available cap space. Now it says $200k. Weird. Maybe I demoted a wrong player or something. Or I just need my eyes checked.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on November 07, 2019, 01:30:37 PM
In all, I think Dubas did a good job overall.  Managed to keep all of the RFA's of consequence for at least 3 years when everyone expected us to lose at least one, but that did come at the cost of a 1st round pick.  I'm fine with hurting us later to keep the current team intact.   You have more time to recover on that one with overseas/college free-agents and player development.

Got rid of cap (and on ice) negative Zaitsev, although for at least this year the returned player isn't really helping either of those situations.  Ceci's deal is definitely a head-scratcher- they could have handed that differently for sure and I believe they should have.  But beyond, it looks like a very good move.

The Marner deal is the one where I feel he did the poorest job.  I get the arguments that if you are gonna overpay anyone, make it your star players.  But its hard to swallow when nobody else is doing it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on November 07, 2019, 01:38:30 PM
In all, I think Dubas did a good job overall.  Managed to keep all of the RFA's of consequence for at least 3 years when everyone expected us to lose at least one, but that did come at the cost of a 1st round pick.  I'm fine with hurting us later to keep the current team intact.   You have more time to recover on that one with overseas/college free-agents and player development.

Got rid of cap (and on ice) negative Zaitsev, although for at least this year the returned player isn't really helping either of those situations.  Ceci's deal is definitely a head-scratcher- they could have handed that differently for sure and I believe they should have.  But beyond, it looks like a very good move.

The Marner deal is the one where I feel he did the poorest job.  I get the arguments that if you are gonna overpay anyone, make it your star players.  But its hard to swallow when nobody else is doing it.

I think the players won on term and dollars so essentially Dubas was not able to get anything for the team except shorter service guarantee. Our window got a lot shorter and when you combine that with short term Cap crunch it created I think Dubas lost the last year with ease.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on November 07, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
In terms of the d-man trades, bringing in Ceci at the subtraction of Zaitsev and Hainsey made sense. Bringing in two defensemen that struggled playing defense on their previous hasn't worked but I think it was worth a shot.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on November 07, 2019, 02:18:27 PM
In all, I think Dubas did a good job overall.  Managed to keep all of the RFA's of consequence for at least 3 years when everyone expected us to lose at least one, but that did come at the cost of a 1st round pick.  I'm fine with hurting us later to keep the current team intact.   You have more time to recover on that one with overseas/college free-agents and player development.

Got rid of cap (and on ice) negative Zaitsev, although for at least this year the returned player isn't really helping either of those situations.  Ceci's deal is definitely a head-scratcher- they could have handed that differently for sure and I believe they should have.  But beyond, it looks like a very good move.

The Marner deal is the one where I feel he did the poorest job.  I get the arguments that if you are gonna overpay anyone, make it your star players.  But its hard to swallow when nobody else is doing it.

I think the players won on term and dollars so essentially Dubas was not able to get anything for the team except shorter service guarantee. Our window got a lot shorter and when you combine that with short term Cap crunch it created I think Dubas lost the last year with ease.

1.  Nylander didn't win on dollars IMO.  6 years isn't the player winning on term either, as almost all the guys in his comparables signed for that term (Pasta being the most obvious).  The only thing Dubas lost on that one IMO was timing.  It shouldn't have taken until December 1st.  Otherwise, its going to be the best deal he signed and I don't say that as a negative.

2.  Matthews gave up dollars for his wish to go shorter term.  He was looking for McDavid+ money for 8 years.  I don't think Dubas "lost" that one, but he definitely didn't win it.  I'm not sure it was possible to win that one. 

3.  All of Kerfoot, Mango, and Kapanen were good deals at probably the best terms for each of them.  I don't think Dubas lost a single one of those deals, in fact, I'd say he won them even if they aren't huge wins.

4.  Marner he definitely lost on dollars for a 6 yr term, but the 6 yr term is not really the problem there if you ask me.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on November 07, 2019, 02:26:04 PM
In all, I think Dubas did a good job overall.  Managed to keep all of the RFA's of consequence for at least 3 years when everyone expected us to lose at least one, but that did come at the cost of a 1st round pick.  I'm fine with hurting us later to keep the current team intact.   You have more time to recover on that one with overseas/college free-agents and player development.

Got rid of cap (and on ice) negative Zaitsev, although for at least this year the returned player isn't really helping either of those situations.  Ceci's deal is definitely a head-scratcher- they could have handed that differently for sure and I believe they should have.  But beyond, it looks like a very good move.

The Marner deal is the one where I feel he did the poorest job.  I get the arguments that if you are gonna overpay anyone, make it your star players.  But its hard to swallow when nobody else is doing it.

I think the players won on term and dollars so essentially Dubas was not able to get anything for the team except shorter service guarantee. Our window got a lot shorter and when you combine that with short term Cap crunch it created I think Dubas lost the last year with ease.

1.  Nylander didn't win on dollars IMO.  6 years isn't the player winning on term either, as almost all the guys in his comparables signed for that term (Pasta being the most obvious).  The only thing Dubas lost on that one IMO was timing.  It shouldn't have taken until December 1st.  Otherwise, its going to be the best deal he signed and I don't say that as a negative.

2.  Matthews gave up dollars for his wish to go shorter term.  He was looking for McDavid+ money for 8 years.  I don't think Dubas "lost" that one, but he definitely didn't win it.  I'm not sure it was possible to win that one. 

3.  All of Kerfoot, Mango, and Kapanen were good deals at probably the best terms for each of them.  I don't think Dubas lost a single one of those deals, in fact, I'd say he won them even if they aren't huge wins.

4.  Marner he definitely lost on dollars for a 6 yr term, but the 6 yr term is not really the problem there if you ask me.

In the 2nd year of a 6 year deal Nylander is heading for less than 60 points. Obviously that can change but as is we are in year two and Nylander has not earned his Cap hit yet. Matthews has not shown himself to be in the conversation with McDavid, or the NHL's elite class for that matter. As with Nylander that can change. The 3rd liners I'm not really concerned about. Marner needs to be a lot better to be anywhere near his contract. I give Dubas no wins as of now with the big 3 and presently sitting at 3 losses. Combine that with no money to improve the team and here we sit in mediocrity.  And we have 4 more seasons with tge 3 signed.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 03:01:30 PM
Fun question for the Capologists on the board:

Player on Team A, which is in full-season LTIR, is traded to Team B mid-season before the deadline (i.e. today), which does not have LTIR.

Full year cap comes off Team A. What would the cap hit read as for Team B? Does it revert to daily hit calculations, i.e. 36/182 days * annual cap hit left?

Asking for a friend*

* who wants to trade Ceci to Winnipeg
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 07, 2019, 03:12:45 PM
In the 2nd year of a 6 year deal Nylander is heading for less than 60 points. Obviously that can change but as is we are in year two and Nylander has not earned his Cap hit yet. Matthews has not shown himself to be in the conversation with McDavid, or the NHL's elite class for that matter. As with Nylander that can change. The 3rd liners I'm not really concerned about. Marner needs to be a lot better to be anywhere near his contract. I give Dubas no wins as of now with the big 3 and presently sitting at 3 losses. Combine that with no money to improve the team and here we sit in mediocrity.  And we have 4 more seasons with tge 3 signed.

Surely, you must be joking here.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on November 07, 2019, 03:37:22 PM
In the 2nd year of a 6 year deal Nylander is heading for less than 60 points. Obviously that can change but as is we are in year two and Nylander has not earned his Cap hit yet. Matthews has not shown himself to be in the conversation with McDavid, or the NHL's elite class for that matter. As with Nylander that can change. The 3rd liners I'm not really concerned about. Marner needs to be a lot better to be anywhere near his contract. I give Dubas no wins as of now with the big 3 and presently sitting at 3 losses. Combine that with no money to improve the team and here we sit in mediocrity.  And we have 4 more seasons with tge 3 signed.

Surely, you must be joking here.

20% of the way through a season and has not dominated a game yet. I don't see how that can be elite?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 07, 2019, 03:43:58 PM
So, you're basing his "eliteness" on a 16-game sample (during which he's scored 12 goals; good for 3rd in the league) where he hasn't dominated, as defined by you?

Do I really need to explain how weak that argument is?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on November 07, 2019, 03:47:38 PM
So, you're basing his "eliteness" on a 16-game sample (during which he's scored 12 goals; good for 3rd in the league) where he hasn't dominated, as defined by you?

Do I really need to explain how weak that argument is?

You watch the games? Matthews has not been an elite player yet this season, that is the timeframe being discussed. Just scoring goals in itself doesn't make one an elite player. I doubt you count James Neal as elite.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 07, 2019, 03:51:20 PM
If Matthews can score 61 goals this season but still leave me wanting more, I'll take that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 07, 2019, 03:52:31 PM
Matthews has 12 goals in 16 games, is on pace for 92 points (would be a career high in points and points/game), and has a 56% CF which would also be a career high for him.

Imagine what he'll do when he starts actually playing well.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on November 07, 2019, 04:03:20 PM
Matthews has 12 goals in 16 games, is on pace for 92 points (would be a career high in points and points/game), and has a 56% CF which would also be a career high for him.

Imagine what he'll do when he starts actually playing well.

I doubt those numbers put him in the conversation with McDavid or the League's elite. Still time though as it's early.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on November 07, 2019, 04:09:19 PM
Fun question for the Capologists on the board:

Player on Team A, which is in full-season LTIR, is traded to Team B mid-season before the deadline (i.e. today), which does not have LTIR.

Full year cap comes off Team A. What would the cap hit read as for Team B? Does it revert to daily hit calculations, i.e. 36/182 days * annual cap hit left?

Asking for a friend*

* who wants to trade Ceci to Winnipeg

Your interpretation is correct.  Would count as daily cap hit accumulation for Team B.  Team A's finances or use of LTIR has no impact on Team B's.

Not sure though what the 36/182 is... I think there are more days left in the season at the deadline.  If you are talking about trading Ceci to WPG now, then its (182-36)/182*CapHit is what would be their total cap hit on Ceci. 

(or to make life easier.... CapDollarsUsed = daysLeft/totalDays * CapHitAAV)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 07, 2019, 04:14:18 PM
Matthews has 12 goals in 16 games, is on pace for 92 points (would be a career high in points and points/game), and has a 56% CF which would also be a career high for him.

Imagine what he'll do when he starts actually playing well.

OK CTB, your next post is number 25000 -- make it a good one.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 07, 2019, 04:15:55 PM
Matthews has 12 goals in 16 games, is on pace for 92 points (would be a career high in points and points/game), and has a 56% CF which would also be a career high for him.

Imagine what he'll do when he starts actually playing well.

OK CTB, your next post is number 25000 -- make it a good one.

Why start posting good ones now?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 07, 2019, 04:23:21 PM
Matthews has 12 goals in 16 games, is on pace for 92 points (would be a career high in points and points/game), and has a 56% CF which would also be a career high for him.

Imagine what he'll do when he starts actually playing well.

OK CTB, your next post is number 25000 -- make it a good one.

Why start posting good ones now?

Perfectly written.  Well done.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 07, 2019, 04:44:32 PM
So, you're basing his "eliteness" on a 16-game sample (during which he's scored 12 goals; good for 3rd in the league) where he hasn't dominated, as defined by you?

Do I really need to explain how weak that argument is?

You watch the games? Matthews has not been an elite player yet this season, that is the timeframe being discussed. Just scoring goals in itself doesn't make one an elite player. I doubt you count James Neal as elite.

Your doubt is correct.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 07, 2019, 04:55:03 PM
Fun question for the Capologists on the board:

Player on Team A, which is in full-season LTIR, is traded to Team B mid-season before the deadline (i.e. today), which does not have LTIR.

Full year cap comes off Team A. What would the cap hit read as for Team B? Does it revert to daily hit calculations, i.e. 36/182 days * annual cap hit left?

Asking for a friend*

* who wants to trade Ceci to Winnipeg

Your interpretation is correct.  Would count as daily cap hit accumulation for Team B.  Team A's finances or use of LTIR has no impact on Team B's.

Not sure though what the 36/182 is... I think there are more days left in the season at the deadline.  If you are talking about trading Ceci to WPG now, then its (182-36)/182*CapHit is what would be their total cap hit on Ceci. 

(or to make life easier.... CapDollarsUsed = daysLeft/totalDays * CapHitAAV)

Yes that 182-36 is what I meant.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 07, 2019, 06:12:35 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 07, 2019, 06:27:37 PM
I don't get it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 07, 2019, 09:59:08 PM
Gonna wonder aloud about what people were realistically expecting the Leafs to be able to do this offseason staring down Marleau's 3rd year, Zaitsev's contract/performance, and Marner's contract post-94-pt season, all the while needing to improve the defense with Gardiner and Hainsey coming off the books.

While the offseason was not a total clusterf**k, I think its realistic to expect:

1.  You won't overpay your 94-pt guy by at least 1M per season
2.  End up in a position where you can only have one spare player mostly because of #1
3.  End up in a position where you limit yourself to league minimum backup goalie options.  Decent goalie with 950k salary comes on waivers, nope gotta pass on him because he won't fit.

Not overpaying Ceci by 200k is also on the list of questionable decisions, but I'm not sure I see the math CtB was coming up with where that extra 200k is what is limiting us to only one spare.  With the roster as expected with Hyman back and one of Shore/Spezza/Timashov also waived/traded we are still in the 81.3M ballpark on active salaries (ie not including the LTIR guys).  An extra 200k on Ceci doesn't make room for another guy.  (It would however allow us to use a 1M backup goalie)
Who are you talking about? Jarry I guess? Domingue is not inspiring...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 08, 2019, 07:58:24 AM
Not that we didnít already know but a refresh always feels good.  Take that, Ovie!

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 08, 2019, 09:51:49 AM
Great analogy.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on November 08, 2019, 11:54:08 AM
Gonna wonder aloud about what people were realistically expecting the Leafs to be able to do this offseason staring down Marleau's 3rd year, Zaitsev's contract/performance, and Marner's contract post-94-pt season, all the while needing to improve the defense with Gardiner and Hainsey coming off the books.

While the offseason was not a total clusterf**k, I think its realistic to expect:

1.  You won't overpay your 94-pt guy by at least 1M per season
2.  End up in a position where you can only have one spare player mostly because of #1
3.  End up in a position where you limit yourself to league minimum backup goalie options.  Decent goalie with 950k salary comes on waivers, nope gotta pass on him because he won't fit.

Not overpaying Ceci by 200k is also on the list of questionable decisions, but I'm not sure I see the math CtB was coming up with where that extra 200k is what is limiting us to only one spare.  With the roster as expected with Hyman back and one of Shore/Spezza/Timashov also waived/traded we are still in the 81.3M ballpark on active salaries (ie not including the LTIR guys).  An extra 200k on Ceci doesn't make room for another guy.  (It would however allow us to use a 1M backup goalie)
Who are you talking about? Jarry I guess? Domingue is not inspiring...

I did mention waivers, but that isn't the only way to acquire backup goaltenders.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 08, 2019, 12:47:27 PM
Invalid Tweet ID
I never really paid attention to this rule as I never expected the Leafs to dabble in them after Marleau.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 08, 2019, 12:53:11 PM
Invalid Tweet ID
I never really paid attention to this rule as I never expected the Leafs to dabble in them after Marleau.

His cap hit would go away if sent to the minors.  Only applies to multi-year deals on players 35+
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 08, 2019, 12:55:10 PM
Whew!! I almost Spazzad out.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on November 08, 2019, 10:16:27 PM
I actually think Spezza is playing decently well for a depth player.  He is playing at around a 0.5 point per game pace.  Not bad at all IMO.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 08, 2019, 11:08:36 PM
Muzzin about Muzzin...

Beyond his sprinkling of offence, all those subtle defensive plays, heaviness, and puck movement, Muzzin also rates as the Leafsí top penalty killer on defence early this season in terms of expected goals against per 60 minutes.

Heís been called a leader both in the dressing room and on the ice.  He has the experience, and the consistency to do the little things that add up to the bigger picture, so to speak.  Not a perfect d-man but one that seems ďto fitĒ the teamís defensive needs.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 10, 2019, 09:17:21 AM
Well, might not have to worry about cap room for Hyman for now...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 10, 2019, 09:31:54 AM
Yeah Iím thinking high ankle sprain = LTIR here
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2019, 07:53:42 AM
Lotsa Ďcap spaceí now
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 11, 2019, 09:36:09 AM
Gonna wonder aloud about what people were realistically expecting the Leafs to be able to do this offseason staring down Marleau's 3rd year, Zaitsev's contract/performance, and Marner's contract post-94-pt season, all the while needing to improve the defense with Gardiner and Hainsey coming off the books.

While the offseason was not a total clusterf**k, I think its realistic to expect:

1.  You won't overpay your 94-pt guy by at least 1M per season
2.  End up in a position where you can only have one spare player mostly because of #1
3.  End up in a position where you limit yourself to league minimum backup goalie options.  Decent goalie with 950k salary comes on waivers, nope gotta pass on him because he won't fit.

Not overpaying Ceci by 200k is also on the list of questionable decisions, but I'm not sure I see the math CtB was coming up with where that extra 200k is what is limiting us to only one spare.  With the roster as expected with Hyman back and one of Shore/Spezza/Timashov also waived/traded we are still in the 81.3M ballpark on active salaries (ie not including the LTIR guys).  An extra 200k on Ceci doesn't make room for another guy.  (It would however allow us to use a 1M backup goalie)
Who are you talking about? Jarry I guess? Domingue is not inspiring...

I did mention waivers, but that isn't the only way to acquire backup goaltenders.

I think everyone knows that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2019, 09:47:00 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/11/11/leafs-notebook-is-mike-babcock-really-putting-the-clamps-on-the-offense/

Lots of chatter in the older fanbase about kicking Dubas and Nylander to the curb; lots of chatter in the analytics fanbase about kicking Babcock to the curb for stifling offense.

Both takes are amusingly stupid.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 11, 2019, 09:50:25 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/11/11/leafs-notebook-is-mike-babcock-really-putting-the-clamps-on-the-offense/

Lots of chatter in the older fanbase about kicking Dubas and Nylander to the curb; lots of chatter in the analytics fanbase about kicking Babcock to the curb for stifling offense.

Both takes are amusingly stupid.

At least one of the takes isn't incredibly stupid (Hint: It's not the one that says get rid of Nylander).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2019, 10:13:17 AM
We've got the day off before the next game, so we might as well discuss it:

How has Babcock stifled the Leafs offense?

I'll start: he has limited this team's total offensive potential to round out their overall balance. Far less cheating blowing out of the DZ for rush chances (2016-2019), a lot more earned offense through attacking as a group with short passes (as previously requested by everyone). He also limits the offensive potential by curating his top guns' minutes to the 18-20 range as much as possible, theoretically for more intensity on a shift-to-shift basis and full season + playoff stamina. This is offset by zone start control, where offensive talent gets all the OZ starts and non-shooters get all the DZ starts.

So, yes he has (sort of), but for the purpose of sustainable winning when it counts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 11, 2019, 10:18:12 AM
We've got the day off before the next game, so we might as well discuss it:

How has Babcock stifled the Leafs offense?

I'll start: he has limited this team's total offensive potential to round out their overall balance. Far less cheating blowing out of the DZ for rush chances (2016-2019), a lot more earned offense through attacking as a group with short passes (as previously requested by everyone). He also limits the offensive potential by curating his top guns' minutes to the 18-20 range as much as possible, theoretically for more intensity on a shift-to-shift basis and full season + playoff stamina. This is offset by zone start control, where offensive talent gets all the OZ starts and non-shooters get all the DZ starts.

So, yes he has (sort of), but for the purpose of sustainable winning when it counts.

We're talking about the same offense that is 3rd in the whole league in GF?

This team doesn't have an issue with offense, it's the 5th worse in GA that's the issue. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 11, 2019, 10:19:00 AM
If they even get to where it counts.

I didn't see the game last night but it sounds like they had an insane amount of SOG.  I know that's not the be-all/end-all but they need to have more games where they outshoot the opponent by a fair bit.  I don't remember too many so far.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2019, 10:25:54 AM
RE: Matthews minutes

People are going to compare Matthews/Tavares' usage to the likes of Colorado's top line, Edmonton's top line, Florida's top line, who check in at 23+ min on average. I agree with Babcock that that is stupid. They do so out of necessity.

Should your team have to go, as the kids say these days, "balls to the wall" every regular season game just to win? In October/November? Regular season wins are nice, but when your top scorers get iso'd in the playoffs and their tanks are just a bit more empty, what was the point?

The regular season is for ramping up your rhythm, chemistry, and execution to a consistently high level. This is a process-driven organization, and judging by how the previous seasons went, October is get warmed up time, November-January is buckle down to develop defensive execution time, and February and on (trade deadline) is click and go time. Right now, it's about figuring out how to execute defensive sort outs, wall stops, taking high-percentage plays instead of cheating for offense, and then layering more offensive push once your execution on defense puts the puck on your stick more often.

Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2019, 10:30:08 AM

This is good stuff
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 11, 2019, 12:06:04 PM
Leafs waive Hutch

?s=09
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 11, 2019, 03:00:49 PM
Nylander with 4g 2a in his last five games.  I'm in the "he's been underperforming" camp, so I'm glad to see he's starting to break out.

He's now on pace for 30g.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 11, 2019, 03:05:12 PM
Nylander with 4g 2a in his last five games.  I'm in the "he's been underperforming" camp, so I'm glad to see he's starting to break out.

He's now on pace for 30g.

You should check out his last 10 games
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 12, 2019, 12:47:36 AM
RE: Matthews minutes

People are going to compare Matthews/Tavares' usage to the likes of Colorado's top line, Edmonton's top line, Florida's top line, who check in at 23+ min on average. I agree with Babcock that that is stupid. They do so out of necessity.

Should your team have to go, as the kids say these days, "balls to the wall" every regular season game just to win? In October/November? Regular season wins are nice, but when your top scorers get iso'd in the playoffs and their tanks are just a bit more empty, what was the point?

The regular season is for ramping up your rhythm, chemistry, and execution to a consistently high level. This is a process-driven organization, and judging by how the previous seasons went, October is get warmed up time, November-January is buckle down to develop defensive execution time, and February and on (trade deadline) is click and go time. Right now, it's about figuring out how to execute defensive sort outs, wall stops, taking high-percentage plays instead of cheating for offense, and then layering more offensive push once your execution on defense puts the puck on your stick more often.

Invalid Tweet ID

The part about comparing Matthews/Tavares usage to other teamís top lines is just plain non-practical.  Each team to their own.

With all of the new players, and especially the defence that still needs to adjust itself, plus a different game playing strategy (drop pass, etc.),  I never expected the team to gel so fast nor to perfect their game to precision so soon.

I think that peopleís anxiousness about this yearís Leafs stems from the publicís expectations of the teamís stars considering that the Leafs are top four heavy (contracts included) and that somehow  many expect these guys to be the saviours of everything on ice, regardless of the still rickety defence.

Also, the fanbase  is already looking ahead towards the playoffs (even though weíre not even half-way there yet in the season) and want to believe that all of the changes made by Dubas & Babcock will translate to bringing the team to a higher-still plateau, one in which the Leafs are attempting to reach but looks can be deceiving,  The perception that this team is both progressively better on one end, and regressively worse on the other merely is adding to the fansí anxiety.

The LeafNation is restless.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Andy on November 12, 2019, 07:52:59 AM
Nylander with 4g 2a in his last five games.  I'm in the "he's been underperforming" camp, so I'm glad to see he's starting to break out.

He's now on pace for 30g.

Other than the few small missteps here and there (that plague just about every skilled player) I'm not sure where this "underperforming" narrative has come from. He's looked pretty consistently great to me, has a dominating Corsi, is sitting at nearly 54% on faceoffs all while playing 2 minutes less than Marner with a paycheck 4 million dollars lighter. Oh, and he mostly plays on the 2nd PP devoid of all the big guns.

Any notion that he has to be moved or that his Cap hit is sinking this team (not that you said this Frank, just a common complaint I see all the time) is just completely and utterly baffling.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 12, 2019, 10:18:05 AM

Petan and Kaskisuo get the call.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 10:25:28 AM
The Showcase is on (again)!

What say you to:
Johnsson - Matthews - Nylander
Moore - Tavares - Kerfoot
Mikheyev - Petan - Kapanen
Timashov - Shore - Gauthier
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Michael on November 12, 2019, 11:08:54 AM
The Showcase is on (again)!

What say you to:
Johnsson - Matthews - Nylander
Moore - Tavares - Kerfoot
Mikheyev - Petan - Kapanen
Timashov - Shore - Gauthier

I would trade Kapanen onto the right side of Tavares and have Kerfoot as the 3 C
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 11:17:44 AM
I would trade Kapanen onto the right side of Tavares and have Kerfoot as the 3 C

I really like Kapanen in the 3rd line slot, where he is well above average to great, vs in a top six role where he is frustratingly middling or detrimental to sustained offensive effort from a creativity standpoint.

I really like Kerfoot in the 3C slot but what the Leafs need more than a super 3rd line whil Marner is out is a 1B attack line to draw heat off Nylander's line and still win their matchup regularly. Kerfoot brings a huge dose of speed and playmaking to Tavares' wing.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 12, 2019, 11:21:20 AM
I know that they bumped Kerfoot up in the last game, but I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't have him back at 3C.

There's also the possibility that Hyman could be back Wednesday.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 11:26:53 AM
There's no law against in-game adjustments either, so if Petan and Kerfoot are swapping situationally, that's cool too. While I think he is capable, I don't think Petan should be up against top-six competition regularly without more NHL warm up.

I also don't think Spezza really fits with either the current 4th line function, a speedy 3rd line (which would cause it to be even more heavily sheltered like an offensive 4th line), or a Tavares-winger. If the coaching staff is okay with Hyman-Tavares-Player doing some of that scut work, then I can see Timashov-Gauthier-Spezza maybe.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 12, 2019, 11:26:59 AM
Should have checked twitter before posting that:

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
Oh yeah, I'll take the L here haha

WHAT ABOUT MOORE-TAVARES-HYMAN hmmmmm?

Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 12, 2019, 11:41:20 AM

Sweet. I haven't been a fan of Tavares in the slot position.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 12, 2019, 11:42:04 AM
Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.

I doubt we see Bracco at any point this season (or maybe ever really).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 11:48:56 AM
Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.

I doubt we see Bracco at any point this season (or maybe ever really).

Technically I echo that sentiment, but I do want a favourable trade in return, rather than a shuffling of minor league options. The Marner injury literally affords us an opportunity to drive up his value.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on November 12, 2019, 11:54:10 AM
I would trade Kapanen onto the right side of Tavares and have Kerfoot as the 3 C

I really like Kapanen in the 3rd line slot, where he is well above average to great, vs in a top six role where he is frustratingly middling or detrimental to sustained offensive effort from a creativity standpoint.

I really like Kerfoot in the 3C slot but what the Leafs need more than a super 3rd line whil Marner is out is a 1B attack line to draw heat off Nylander's line and still win their matchup regularly. Kerfoot brings a huge dose of speed and playmaking to Tavares' wing.

Yeah anything that can give them some secondary scoring would be good at this point.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 12:13:45 PM
Yeeeesh
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 12, 2019, 12:30:31 PM
I would trade Kapanen onto the right side of Tavares and have Kerfoot as the 3 C

I really like Kapanen in the 3rd line slot, where he is well above average to great, vs in a top six role where he is frustratingly middling or detrimental to sustained offensive effort from a creativity standpoint.

I really like Kerfoot in the 3C slot but what the Leafs need more than a super 3rd line whil Marner is out is a 1B attack line to draw heat off Nylander's line and still win their matchup regularly. Kerfoot brings a huge dose of speed and playmaking to Tavares' wing.

Yeah anything that can give them some secondary scoring would be good at this point.

Yeah, I think getting Shore off this roster with his 1 point in 16 games needs to happen.

Put Spezza in just to help create some kind of counter attack when they're 4th line on 4th line.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 12, 2019, 12:42:20 PM
Oh yeah, I'll take the L here haha

WHAT ABOUT MOORE-TAVARES-HYMAN hmmmmm?

Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.

lol.

No.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on November 12, 2019, 12:59:14 PM

I'm with Herman. Eastasia really goofed by drafting Bracco. Luckily Eurasia steered us towards Sandin.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 12, 2019, 01:16:10 PM

I'm with Herman. Eastasia really goofed by drafting Bracco. Luckily Eurasia steered us towards Sandin.

... who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Dermott's development??
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 01:22:56 PM

I'm with Herman. Eastasia really goofed by drafting Bracco. Luckily Eurasia steered us towards Sandin.

... who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Dermott's development??

Always carry a spare
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 12, 2019, 01:32:22 PM
Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.

I doubt we see Bracco at any point this season (or maybe ever really).

I suppose if he rips it up in the AHL again this season he could be a trade chip (maybe a 2nd piece in a bigger deal type guy)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 12, 2019, 03:20:34 PM
Oh yeah, I'll take the L here haha

WHAT ABOUT MOORE-TAVARES-HYMAN hmmmmm?

Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.
Don't like Moore on the 2nd line. I would like to see Korshkov or Bracco get a chance on that line tho.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 12, 2019, 03:28:01 PM
Oh yeah, I'll take the L here haha

WHAT ABOUT MOORE-TAVARES-HYMAN hmmmmm?

Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.
Don't like Moore on the 2nd line. I would like to see Korshkov or Bracco get a chance on that line tho.

Is anyone actually following the Marlies and can give an update on Korshkov?  I see he's on pace for over 40 goals so far, which would be quite amazing.  Late bloomer perhaps?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 12, 2019, 04:19:15 PM
Oh yeah, I'll take the L here haha

WHAT ABOUT MOORE-TAVARES-HYMAN hmmmmm?

Korshkov would also be a fun option. Showcasing Bracco as well, who was drafted as a hedge against hiccups to Marner's development.
Don't like Moore on the 2nd line. I would like to see Korshkov or Bracco get a chance on that line tho.

Is anyone actually following the Marlies and can give an update on Korshkov?  I see he's on pace for over 40 goals so far, which would be quite amazing.  Late bloomer perhaps?
Apparently they're using him in all situations and he's handling everything Keefe is throwing at him. I would guess he's adjusted well to the smaller rink so far. He's still a rookie in the A but I wouldn't mind seeing him get a couple of games.
Also heard on Leafs Lunch from their play by play man that Sandin is playing great. So is Liljegren although he's hurt. Liljegren just plays solid D. Nothing flashy but very dependable. KK is also playing extremely well and according to this guy, deserves a shot. They briefly talked about Petan and he raved about him. I have a feeling he'll get a shot with Marner out. I hope he, or whoever comes up later does well.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on November 12, 2019, 04:27:50 PM
Does anyone think that the Leafs used to build leads and then lose them in the third is related to how they give up goals early now and then try and battle back in the third?

I wonder if there is some sort of mental block where the young guys are afraid to get out in front of a team because of all those times they let the lead slip away. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2019, 04:44:38 PM
Does anyone think that the Leafs used to build leads and then lose them in the third is related to how they give up goals early now and then try and battle back in the third?

I wonder if there is some sort of mental block where the young guys are afraid to get out in front of a team because of all those times they let the lead slip away.

I think it's more like the Leafs core is very very good at offense, risky plays leading to really good chances, fly-by stick checks to free up pucks without having to change directions, etc.

They're being trained now to play conservatively, maintain possession, keep support formation up and down the ice, free up and retrieve pucks as a unit. Inevitably, there are breakdowns and a goal gets scored off a defenseman or someone catches an edge and falls out of position or support coverage is slow on the uptake and they give up a 2 on 1; the Leafs core are still very new to playing conservatively. There have been moments they've clicked and it is glorious, and there are still frequently moments where one or two breakdown in the scheme and there's a scramble to adjust and cover.

Down a goal or two, the Leafs open up to play catch up hockey a bit, which they know well and with a shortened lineup the Leafs can temporarily win their match ups more frequently. Catch up hockey is not sustainable up and down your lineup for an entire period, let alone a whole game.

What Babcock is building towards is that machine-like efficiency in 5-man hockey where everyone does their work getting pucks, moving pucks, and setting up shop (rolling around in the OZ for heavy shifts) to let their talent shine. This style requires coordination, skill, and 2nd, 3rd, 4th efforts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 14, 2019, 01:39:36 PM
Here's an interesting stat..Spezza leads the team in even strength assists per 60 minutes and is second in even strength points per 60. 5th in points per 60, Shore is 19th. He's only played 10 games so yeah small sample but why is he not playing more? I get Shore has been better in faceoffs but do we really need a faceoff specialist, because that's all he seems to be kept for. Matthews is very capable of winning faceoffs and has a better percentage then Shore.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 14, 2019, 01:46:55 PM
Here's an interesting stat..Spezza leads the team in even strength assists per 60 minutes and is second in even strength points per 60. 5th in points per 60, Shore is 19th. He's only played 10 games so yeah small sample but why is he not playing more? I get Shore has been better in faceoffs but do we really need a faceoff specialist, because that's all he seems to be kept for. Matthews is very capable of winning faceoffs and has a better percentage then Shore.

Spezza once cut in front of Babcock at Timmys.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 14, 2019, 01:47:56 PM
Here's an interesting stat..Spezza leads the team in even strength assists per 60 minutes and is second in even strength points per 60. 5th in points per 60, Shore is 19th. He's only played 10 games so yeah small sample but why is he not playing more? I get Shore has been better in faceoffs but do we really need a faceoff specialist, because that's all he seems to be kept for. Matthews is very capable of winning faceoffs and has a better percentage then Shore.

Spezza once cut in front of Babcock at Timmys.
Hahaha...Probably.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 14, 2019, 02:12:51 PM

Season is still technically early. The Leafs basically lost their top line of forwards from last season to injury/circumstantial ineffectiveness/regression to start the year.

Tavares is bouncing back already; not sure how Marner will look post-high ankle sprain but probably not great for the month or two after his return. Tavares can prop him up to a degree (certainly better than Bozak could that first year Marner missed time with the ankle injury).

Might be time to just put Holl with Muzzin for a bit and let Barrie dummy the lower lineup for a week or two, because we need to get his confidence going.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 14, 2019, 02:20:03 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/11/14/kyle-dubas-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-team-identity/

Quote
How have you felt the team has dealt with the early adversity?

Dubas: I think weíve talked about it as a group right from the start of training camp. You always want to know how your group and how your organization is going to react when things donít go perfectly, especially with the fact that it is a young team and we still have to learn how to go through this. I think there are teams that handle it very well and they are usually teams that have got a lot of collective experience together.

Any time you go through a stretch where you maybe miss your expectations by a little bit, or maybe pucks arenít going in, or you arenít winning as many games as you think you should, it gives you a great opportunity as a group to examine where you are at and how you can be better.

Thatís all I really look for. I donít get too up and down by any stretch ó not too high when we won three games last week or not too low right now. We show great stretches throughout where we play great hockey. Itís just becoming a team that does that more and more often.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 14, 2019, 02:45:31 PM
Season is still technically early. The Leafs basically lost their top line of forwards from last season to injury/circumstantial ineffectiveness/regression to start the year.

Tavares is bouncing back already; not sure how Marner will look post-high ankle sprain but probably not great for the month or two after his return. Tavares can prop him up to a degree (certainly better than Bozak could that first year Marner missed time with the ankle injury).

Might be time to just put Holl with Muzzin for a bit and let Barrie dummy the lower lineup for a week or two, because we need to get his confidence going.

Screw-it, I'm getting on board the Holl-aboard! train.

Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 14, 2019, 02:49:59 PM
Season is still technically early. The Leafs basically lost their top line of forwards from last season to injury/circumstantial ineffectiveness/regression to start the year.

Tavares is bouncing back already; not sure how Marner will look post-high ankle sprain but probably not great for the month or two after his return. Tavares can prop him up to a degree (certainly better than Bozak could that first year Marner missed time with the ankle injury).

Might be time to just put Holl with Muzzin for a bit and let Barrie dummy the lower lineup for a week or two, because we need to get his confidence going.

Screw-it, I'm getting on board the Holl-aboard! train.

Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie
I endorse Bullfrog on this lineup. Rielly needs the help, Barrie needs someone who can close gaps.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 14, 2019, 03:50:49 PM
Season is still technically early. The Leafs basically lost their top line of forwards from last season to injury/circumstantial ineffectiveness/regression to start the year.

Tavares is bouncing back already; not sure how Marner will look post-high ankle sprain but probably not great for the month or two after his return. Tavares can prop him up to a degree (certainly better than Bozak could that first year Marner missed time with the ankle injury).

Might be time to just put Holl with Muzzin for a bit and let Barrie dummy the lower lineup for a week or two, because we need to get his confidence going.

Screw-it, I'm getting on board the Holl-aboard! train.

Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie
I endorse Bullfrog on this lineup. Rielly needs the help, Barrie needs someone who can close gaps.
Well whatever Babs does or doesn't do, the Rielly-CC pairing is not working.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Rob on November 14, 2019, 05:08:33 PM
Oh no the dreaded "closed door" meeting.  We are a "players only" meeting away from Babcock being fired.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 14, 2019, 05:25:38 PM
Season is still technically early. The Leafs basically lost their top line of forwards from last season to injury/circumstantial ineffectiveness/regression to start the year.

Tavares is bouncing back already; not sure how Marner will look post-high ankle sprain but probably not great for the month or two after his return. Tavares can prop him up to a degree (certainly better than Bozak could that first year Marner missed time with the ankle injury).

Might be time to just put Holl with Muzzin for a bit and let Barrie dummy the lower lineup for a week or two, because we need to get his confidence going.

Screw-it, I'm getting on board the Holl-aboard! train.

Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie

Rielly needs to play less overall.  Ceci needs to play much less.  I'm kind of ok with this but the lack of mobility on that 2nd pairing scares the hell of out me. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on November 14, 2019, 07:45:39 PM
It's kind of funny looking back at the common whipping boys over the forums over the last few years. Komorov, Martin, Polak, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown, and of course, who could forget ol' useless Lou, who was old and behind the times.

I'm starting to miss the compete factor that all of these guys brought, cause apart from Tavares, Marner, Freddie and Reilly, it's completely missing from this group.

I hate to say it, and it's obviously a personal observation, but I'm finding myself starting to dislike the team. It has nothing to do with success; I've been a diehard booster going back past the brophy era, but this group of players.... I can't put my finger on it. I could care less if they win or lose, because I don't get the opinion that they particularly care either.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on November 14, 2019, 07:51:39 PM
I'm surprised Babcock hasn't swapped Barrie and Ceci yet.  Muzzin+Ceci seems like a better defensive pairing, let Reilly and Barrie feast on lesser competition.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on November 14, 2019, 09:35:29 PM
I'm surprised Babcock hasn't swapped Barrie and Ceci yet.  Muzzin+Ceci seems like a better defensive pairing, let Reilly and Barrie feast on lesser competition.

I would like to see the Leafs try this.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 15, 2019, 09:21:23 AM
Season is still technically early. The Leafs basically lost their top line of forwards from last season to injury/circumstantial ineffectiveness/regression to start the year.

Tavares is bouncing back already; not sure how Marner will look post-high ankle sprain but probably not great for the month or two after his return. Tavares can prop him up to a degree (certainly better than Bozak could that first year Marner missed time with the ankle injury).

Might be time to just put Holl with Muzzin for a bit and let Barrie dummy the lower lineup for a week or two, because we need to get his confidence going.

Screw-it, I'm getting on board the Holl-aboard! train.

Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie

Rielly needs to play less overall.  Ceci needs to play much less.  I'm kind of ok with this but the lack of mobility on that 2nd pairing scares the hell of out me.

I don't know that Ceci lacks mobility. He lacks decision making ability.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 15, 2019, 09:42:23 AM
It's kind of funny looking back at the common whipping boys over the forums over the last few years. Komorov, Martin, Polak, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown, and of course, who could forget ol' useless Lou, who was old and behind the times.

I'm starting to miss the compete factor that all of these guys brought, cause apart from Tavares, Marner, Freddie and Reilly, it's completely missing from this group.

I hate to say it, and it's obviously a personal observation, but I'm finding myself starting to dislike the team. It has nothing to do with success; I've been a diehard booster going back past the brophy era, but this group of players.... I can't put my finger on it. I could care less if they win or lose, because I don't get the opinion that they particularly care either.


Babcock has been alluding to the compete factor frequently. 

Those guys you mention may have had the compete factor but they didnít bring in much in terms of talent.  The only player I would miss from that group would be Hainsey and only for the veteran leadership factor (for Reilly).  Other than that, the group we have now supersedes anything weíve had before when it comes to the skills department.

The Leafs lack some Ďgrití which Komarov, Martin, & Polak brought, but Iím certain that there is a way for this current team to find themselves on a winning track.  Itís only a matter of time. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Peter D. on November 15, 2019, 10:27:22 AM
I don't know that Ceci lacks mobility. He lacks decision making ability.

Ceci just flat out sucks.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on November 15, 2019, 10:50:41 AM
Kerfoot out indefinitely after surgery.

https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-maple-leafs-alexander-kerfoot-facial-fractures-out-indefinitely-1.1398302
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 15, 2019, 10:53:47 AM
Let's see just how much Babcock hates Spezza
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 15, 2019, 11:07:25 AM

This is good stuff

I've had a few conversations with Hayley. She is one of the most genuine, kindest people I have ever met.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 15, 2019, 11:20:21 AM
I don't know that Ceci lacks mobility. He lacks decision making ability.

Ceci just flat out sucks.

I'm just a nicer guy I guess.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 15, 2019, 11:22:43 AM
I don't know that Ceci lacks mobility. He lacks decision making ability.

Ceci just flat out sucks.

I'm just a nicer guy I guess.

I think it's fair to say Ceci is physically very capable of the job, but in terms of thinking the game under pressure, there is too much of a lag at this level. He's got decent shot share with the Leafs so far.

This is sort of the opposite case with Hainsey, where it was clear his body wasn't really able to keep up with what his mind wanted to do (which was usually a smart, defensive play).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 15, 2019, 11:23:44 AM
I don't know that Ceci lacks mobility. He lacks decision making ability.

Ceci just flat out sucks.

I'm just a nicer guy I guess.

I think it's fair to say Ceci is physically very capable of the job, but in terms of thinking the game under pressure, there is too much of a lag at this level. He's got decent shot share with the Leafs so far.

This is sort of the opposite case with Hainsey, where it was clear his body wasn't really able to keep up with what his mind wanted to do (which was usually a smart, defensive play).

So the solution is to bring Hainsey back and pair them together?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 15, 2019, 11:37:16 AM
I don't know that Ceci lacks mobility. He lacks decision making ability.

Ceci just flat out sucks.

I'm just a nicer guy I guess.

I think it's fair to say Ceci is physically very capable of the job, but in terms of thinking the game under pressure, there is too much of a lag at this level. He's got decent shot share with the Leafs so far.

This is sort of the opposite case with Hainsey, where it was clear his body wasn't really able to keep up with what his mind wanted to do (which was usually a smart, defensive play).

So the solution is to bring Hainsey back and pair them together?
Watching Ceci reminds me that Hainsey was not a bad as we thought.   Ceci does have more offensive upside but that is not really what we need him for.  Nice him and Barrie are history after this year.  Need some guys like Dermot who can close gaps, limit chances.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 15, 2019, 11:45:56 AM
So the solution is to bring Hainsey back and pair them together?

Aim higher: swap Hainsey's mind into Ceci's body.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 15, 2019, 01:39:15 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/11/14/mike-babcock-on-tyson-barrie/

Quote
Morgan Rielly was talking about trying to get the swagger back. As a coaching staff, how can you help the guys get back to that?

Babcock: Well, the biggest thing is: When you leave the rink each night and when your team has won and youíve played well, you feel really good. When you are disappointed and you donít like how you played, you donít feel as good. A big part of that is sticking to the process longer and doing it right and weíll be rewarded.

Thatís a good question. Thatís what we went through here today ó identified our game. Last night was a perfect example. When they scored their first goal, we had the puck the whole time. They scored a goal and boom, the next thing you know, itís two. And then the second period started and we own it. They donít have it. They get the puck and shoot it in our net. The next few shifts ó again, we didnít handle it.

To me, to say we werenít prepared or didnít play well ó thatís not true. But when it went bad, what did we do? The whole game is mistakes. It goes bad regularly, but how do you pick each other up? How do you handle it? How do you get back on track quickly and handle that? We spoke about that as well.

People could seriously take and apply this concept to their every day lives.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 16, 2019, 12:23:00 AM
To continue this discussion, tonight was just another exclamation point on the short take that has applied to our D for years: Not good enough defensively.  Rielly's appalling 3rd period is an aberration; he's not THAT bad, he seems to be playing down to the level of his partner.

The real question is this: Is Dubas ready to admit that he's made a mistake ó several mistakes ó in his trades for defensemen?  He overpaid for Muzzin, which is the least of his failings on this score.  His 2 offseason trades this past summer have been complete disasters in terms of the defensemen he got back.  Barrie was totally the wrong guy, but at least he should have provided offense.  His collapse is just inexplicable.  Taking on Ceci was just plain stupid.

The D we have now doesn't cut it, and never will.  It's time to begin overhauling it.  Our wonderful window with the Big 4 will close sooner than we like.

Sandin and Liljegren are the future of the defense.  (We'd better pray they turn out all right.)  There's no reason to wait until next year to debut them.  I'd:

1.  Trade Muzzin at the deadline, before he walks.  He's a pretty good defenseman, but nothing to build around.
2.   Trade Barrie at the deadline or, preferably, sooner ó if you can get any kind of decent offer.  Hopefully he'll begin scoring a bit to revive his value.  He was exactly what we didn't need, on top of Rielly.
3.  Dump Ceci.  Yesterday.  For anything.  For nothing.
4.  Bring up Sandin, Liljegren, or both.  Let them make mistakes.  Let them learn at this level.  Get them ready now to be mainstays during the rest of Big 4 contract windows.

Rielly-Muzzin
Dermott-Holl
Sandin/Liljegren-Barrie; Sandin-Liljgren once Barrie's gone

(Marincin, Schmaltz, whatever)

I was really impressed with Matthews' game tonight.  He and Nylander have been dynamite.  Tavares/Marner/Hyman/Johnsson/Kapanen ó that's solid.  Let's not fritter their years here away screwing around with a fundamentally ill-conceived defense group.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on November 16, 2019, 01:33:45 AM
Matthews was really good tonight. Threw his weight around a few times, was dangerous in the offensive zone, skated hard on the back check. He needs to bring that game more often against other opponents, not just Boston. If the Leafs play that way against everyone, they'll win their fair share of games.

As for the defense...if Barrie ever gets his confidence back and starts providing offense, maybe things won't look so bad. But he isn't good in the dzone, nor are Ceci and Rielly. Pairing Rielly and Ceci is a bad science project that needs to end yesterday. Not sure how  you juggle the pieces we have and make better pairings though, and that's on Dubas. Maybe they need to bite the bullet and move Holl and/or Dermot up in the pairings, and maybe bring in Sandin who is probably better than Ceci already.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 16, 2019, 09:13:04 AM
I don't think trying to fast forward Sandin's development is a strong move.  It's a move that stinks of Oilers.  I also don't think it's a good idea to throw kids into a team that's in disarray. 

I don't think they're in a position to do much at all.  They're going to have to play it out with the bunch they've got.

Look on the bright side, I don't think it's going to get much worse. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 16, 2019, 10:55:35 AM
I don't think trying to fast forward Sandin's development is a strong move.  It's a move that stinks of Oilers.  I also don't think it's a good idea to throw kids into a team that's in disarray. 

I don't think they're in a position to do much at all.  They're going to have to play it out with the bunch they've got.

Look on the bright side, I don't think it's going to get much worse.

I'm pretty confident Sandin can handle it.  Maybe Liljegren too.  In any case, both of them are going to be in the lineup next year, and they're going to have growing pains then just like now.  Might as well get it over with, and try to get a return on Barrie and especially Muzzin, because neither of them will be back.

Like Chris said, they need defensemen who are defenders in the dzone when the other team has the puck.  Not a radical idea.  Dubas's idea of possession as be-all and end-all needs to be modified.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 16, 2019, 01:13:26 PM
Don't underestimate Liljegren. He's not flashy but gets the job done as a steady defensive guy first. Heard nothing but good things this season.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 16, 2019, 01:35:10 PM
I don't think trying to fast forward Sandin's development is a strong move.  It's a move that stinks of Oilers.  I also don't think it's a good idea to throw kids into a team that's in disarray. 

I don't think they're in a position to do much at all.  They're going to have to play it out with the bunch they've got.

Look on the bright side, I don't think it's going to get much worse.

I'm pretty confident Sandin can handle it.  Maybe Liljegren too.  In any case, both of them are going to be in the lineup next year, and they're going to have growing pains then just like now.  Might as well get it over with, and try to get a return on Barrie and especially Muzzin, because neither of them will be back.

Like Chris said, they need defensemen who are defenders in the dzone when the other team has the puck.  Not a radical idea.  Dubas's idea of possession as be-all and end-all needs to be modified.
Disagree on Muzzin, wish the could clone another 5 of him.  Get rid of Ceci, Barrie, bring up Sandin and Liljegren...the way Mogen is playing is atrocious, sorry to say he has gone from my favorite to someone I would trade for a barrel of prospects or draft picks.  He is terrible, either hurt, overworked, badly coached, but he needs to start taking the body, he has more strength than any other Leaf but all he does is wave his stick around and not taking the gaps or body at all.  You can hang both Marchands third period goals on his hat..horrible defending.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on November 16, 2019, 02:01:07 PM
Dubas's idea of possession as be-all and end-all needs to be modified.

Definitely agree.

But regarding the kids, Sandin is too good a prospect to risk, especially after seeing him get clocked by Abdelkader. Another WJC, and another season of 20+ minutes in the AHL too beneficial to pass up at this stage.

They'll need him next year without question as a regular based upon the cap. If they do deal Barrie  (they should be trying for a team-friendly extension now on Muzzin, not in the offseason) I'd consider bringing him up for the playoffs (here's hoping) at the earliest.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 16, 2019, 05:13:40 PM
I don't think trying to fast forward Sandin's development is a strong move.  It's a move that stinks of Oilers.  I also don't think it's a good idea to throw kids into a team that's in disarray. 

I don't think they're in a position to do much at all.  They're going to have to play it out with the bunch they've got.

Look on the bright side, I don't think it's going to get much worse.

I'm pretty confident Sandin can handle it.  Maybe Liljegren too.  In any case, both of them are going to be in the lineup next year, and they're going to have growing pains then just like now.  Might as well get it over with, and try to get a return on Barrie and especially Muzzin, because neither of them will be back.

Like Chris said, they need defensemen who are defenders in the dzone when the other team has the puck.  Not a radical idea.  Dubas's idea of possession as be-all and end-all needs to be modified.
Does Dubas truly view possession as the be all end all or is this something you're projecting on to him?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 18, 2019, 11:34:25 AM

Still got it
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 18, 2019, 11:35:41 AM

Still got it

I love you.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 18, 2019, 11:54:35 AM

Still got it

I love you.
Sign him up, I would have Matts back in a second.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: louisstamos on November 18, 2019, 02:09:25 PM
Engvall's been called up.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/38aeadabe608f318eb90e5522167fe57/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 18, 2019, 02:09:39 PM

YA LET'S BE TALL AND FAST
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 18, 2019, 02:40:14 PM

YA LET'S BE TALL AND FAST
He's played really well this year in his new centre role. 32pts in 70 games last year...16pts, 15 games this season. Wonder if Babs slots him into 3rd line centre?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 18, 2019, 02:58:15 PM
He scored one yesterday and an assist and had two on Saturday and some assists and I believe he scored 2 in the game directly before the weekend series. Can't hurt.  Now Bracco please, unfortunately both Sandin and Launchingpad are injured.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 18, 2019, 03:46:04 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 18, 2019, 03:51:33 PM
I would have liked to seen the Rielly Ceci pairing broken up too but alas.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on November 18, 2019, 03:53:17 PM
I would have liked to seen the Rielly Ceci pairing broken up too but alas.

Agreed.  I would have thought something like:

Rielly - Holl
Muzzin - Ceci
Dermott - Barrie

Just for a game.  Holl might not be able to handle the minutes.  Then again, Rielly hasn't been lights out at the minutes he is playing either.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 18, 2019, 03:54:33 PM
I would have liked to seen the Rielly Ceci pairing broken up too but alas.

Paul Hendrick posted a different one that was
Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie

Either way, it's time for Tyson Barrie 2.0, the JvR of the 'defense'
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 18, 2019, 04:00:10 PM
Paul Hendrick posted a different one

 8)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 18, 2019, 04:00:35 PM
I would have liked to seen the Rielly Ceci pairing broken up too but alas.

Paul Hendrick posted a different one that was
Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie

Either way, it's time for Tyson Barrie 2.0, the JvR of the 'defense'

I don't think anyone would be surprised if they did this.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 18, 2019, 04:03:51 PM
Paul Hendrick posted a different one

 8)

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/SUEjfSLaD6f77lyzH6/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 18, 2019, 05:04:22 PM
I would have liked to seen the Rielly Ceci pairing broken up too but alas.

Paul Hendrick posted a different one that was
Rielly-Holl
Muzzin-Ceci
Dermott-Barrie

Either way, it's time for Tyson Barrie 2.0, the JvR of the 'defense'
And like a lot of us have said, try Barrie on PP1.Teams aren't calling about Barrie because they think he's crap. I think Dermott could help his game. He's more mobile then Muzz.
I think Muzz and Ceci become the shutdown pairing much like Zaitsev and Muzz did in last year's playoffs.
Now I'd like to see Babs change the forward lines up as well. They have nothing to lose here.
Mikheyev Matthews Nylander
Hyman JT Kappy
Johnsson Engvall Spezza
Petan Goat Timashov
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 18, 2019, 05:29:52 PM
Barrie doesnít really deserve PP1 over Rielly though, by any measure.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 18, 2019, 05:45:57 PM
Barrie doesnít really deserve PP1 over Rielly though, by any measure.
Doesn't matter. The PP1 unit is struggling so you change the system or the players. Babs has to get both the PP going and Barrie. Give him some looks on PP1. If it doesn't work, oh well. If it works, it's a win win.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on November 18, 2019, 06:36:08 PM
The PP has become so stagnant and predictable, just about anything is worth trying. I know it might be considered heresy these days, but how about putting both Rielly and Barrie out there along with AM, WN, JT. Rielly often plays more like a forward so let him move around more and they can try setting Barrie up for point shots, since they seem insistent on doing that with lesser shooters.

Really though, more than anything they need to move around more, put the puck down low once in a while, open up some shots from the slot. Maybe having more of a shooting threat at the blueline will force opponents to adjust and open up some room for the forwards.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 19, 2019, 02:22:09 AM
Re: systems-related problems:  Leafs/Penguins sample game

(https://imageshack.com/i/pn4vmElkp)

Quote
The expected-goals issues at even strength appear to be systems-related, as theyíre relying on the blue line to generate offence far more than in the past.
Many of their recent games have produced heat maps that look like this one below from Saturdayís loss, where opponents are shooting from the slot and the Leafs are firing from long distance. Itís not a winning formula.


https://theathletic.com/1384398/2019/11/17/mirtle-the-pros-and-cons-of-the-maple-leafs-moving-on-from-mike-babcock/
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 20, 2019, 03:08:07 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Strangelove on November 20, 2019, 03:14:31 PM

Spezza or Mikheyev should play a few games with Tavares and Hyman.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 20, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
Spezza or Mikheyev should play a few games with Tavares and Hyman.

I like the idea of Spezza with them; he's definitely not a burner anymore and Tavares/Hyman play a more methodical game coming up the ice. Spezza's puckholding could help open up space for Tavares and his shot gives Tavares legitimate target that's not Muzzin/Barrie.

I'd keep Mikheyev on the 3rd line with Kerfoot and Kapanen to keep that line stupid fast as a fun change of pace once the line changes.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 20, 2019, 03:26:17 PM

Spezza or Mikheyev should play a few games with Tavares and Hyman.
Would like to see Spezza with JT and Mikheyev with Matthews.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 20, 2019, 03:49:27 PM
Some fun facts..
Spezza is 3rd in points/60..2nd goals/60..2nd even strength points/60 while ranking 11th for forwards in average ice time. And he's been scratched 10 games??
Mikheyev is 6th in points/60 despite not seeing any PP time..5th in even strength points/60. Johnsson ranks 11th in ESP/60 despite playing with Matthews and is ranked 8th in points/60. That's not good considering he's on PP1. I think Mikheyev's numbers will be even better playing with Matthews.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 20, 2019, 04:18:05 PM
Tavares flew back to Toronto to attend to a personal matter.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 20, 2019, 05:06:26 PM
Tavares flew back to Toronto to attend to a personal matter.
Hope all is well with his newborn..and family.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 20, 2019, 05:08:45 PM
Tavares flew back to Toronto to attend to a personal matter.
Hope all is well with his newborn..and family.
That's what entered my mind right away. It doesn't appear serious because they said he'll be back tomorrow.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 20, 2019, 05:11:35 PM
Tavares flew back to Toronto to attend to a personal matter.
Hope all is well with his newborn..and family.
That's what entered my mind right away. It doesn't appear serious because they said he'll be back tomorrow.
Perhaps had to meet his bankers about the return on his investments.  My son said he may be injured but hopefully not the case with family or injury.  Perhaps its to meet with Keefe and fly with him back to AZ.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 20, 2019, 05:15:17 PM
I'm not sure where all this "Babcock misuses Barrie" stuff comes from? 

He put Barrie with a good d-man in Muzzin, and played him 21 minutes a game.

If it's just getting more PP time, well then I guess I don't think he's earned it. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 20, 2019, 06:00:09 PM
I'm not sure where all this "Babcock misuses Barrie" stuff comes from? 

He put Barrie with a good d-man in Muzzin, and played him 21 minutes a game.

If it's just getting more PP time, well then I guess I don't think he's earned it.
Its Hakstol's system, he wants the D men to stop at the O Blue line and take long shots and not get caught. Rielly and Barrie are puck carrying D men, they need to penetrate the zone get into the circle and make a play or shot from the slot.  Point shots are a waste of time 1% success rate. You need to let these guys play to their strengths.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 20, 2019, 06:58:55 PM
I'm not sure where all this "Babcock misuses Barrie" stuff comes from? 

He put Barrie with a good d-man in Muzzin, and played him 21 minutes a game.

If it's just getting more PP time, well then I guess I don't think he's earned it.
Its Hakstol's system, he wants the D men to stop at the O Blue line and take long shots and not get caught. Rielly and Barrie are puck carrying D men, they need to penetrate the zone get into the circle and make a play or shot from the slot.  Point shots are a waste of time 1% success rate. You need to let these guys play to their strengths.
That is what it's all about. Using a player strengths so he can have the most success, not hindering them.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 20, 2019, 11:14:22 PM
I'm not sure where all this "Babcock misuses Barrie" stuff comes from? 

He put Barrie with a good d-man in Muzzin, and played him 21 minutes a game.

If it's just getting more PP time, well then I guess I don't think he's earned it.
Its Hakstol's system, he wants the D men to stop at the O Blue line and take long shots and not get caught. Rielly and Barrie are puck carrying D men, they need to penetrate the zone get into the circle and make a play or shot from the slot.  Point shots are a waste of time 1% success rate. You need to let these guys play to their strengths.
That is what it's all about. Using a player strengths so he can have the most success, not hindering them.


Right on!  I always saw it as the Leafs D -- Barrie & Rielly -- playing 'confused'.  I always believed that everyone should play according to their strengths, something we have yet to see this season by the defensemen at least. 

Hopefully, with Keefe behind the bench, he can override Hakstol's 'convoluted' system and get the team back on track.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 21, 2019, 12:34:51 AM
Comparing systems:

Last season:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/7jVGGV.png)


This season (under Hakstol):

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/qsLCn1.png)

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 21, 2019, 11:41:32 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 22, 2019, 10:23:28 AM
ď'That style that we played tonight, youíll see a lot more of it. You know what, weíre going to make some mistakes and weíre going to look silly sometimes, but weíre going to be rewarded for it a lot more than I think we wonít be.'

That quote is from Tyson Barrie, and I think if he had said the same thing a week ago, Mike Babcock may have shot him out of a canon into the sun. For everyone else with eyes on this team, those are hopefully new words to live by."
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 22, 2019, 12:36:00 PM
Just watched the post game with Matthews, man I have never seen him smile like that ever, like a weight is off his shoulders, don't think Bab's and him saw eye to eye.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 22, 2019, 05:13:24 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Rob on November 22, 2019, 05:22:27 PM

BURN!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 22, 2019, 05:52:45 PM
I see the Leafs' PR machine is busy...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 22, 2019, 05:53:43 PM
I see the Leafs' PR machine is busy...
????
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Sunbro on November 22, 2019, 06:44:32 PM
Video up on Maple Leafs youtube channel, post game locker room energy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkgPo88vDaA
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 22, 2019, 06:59:00 PM

The Speech

Here if youíre too lazy to click
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 22, 2019, 07:30:59 PM

The Speech

Here if youíre too lazy to click

That was a nice moment for Keefe, JT always thinking of others.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 22, 2019, 09:12:59 PM

TSN OverDrive: Ferraro: The Leafs Ďjust looked differentí under Keefe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD5JZJ49pzo
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 22, 2019, 09:29:03 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 24, 2019, 02:25:51 PM
Kerfoot is getting a hearing for his hit?  I donít like guys getting hit there but seriously, that is getting a hearing.   We have had 3 or 4 uncalled hits to the head of Matthews and Tavares but this gets a possible suspension?

Iím fine if we start having a strict standard on stuff but it seems like the wheel of random strikes again
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Rob on November 24, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
Kerfoot is getting a hearing for his hit?  I donít like guys getting hit there but seriously, that is getting a hearing.   We have had 3 or 4 uncalled hits to the head of Matthews and Tavares but this gets a possible suspension?

Iím fine if we start having a strict standard on stuff but it seems like the wheel of random strikes again

Engvall got thrown into the boards in a similar fashion and nothing. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 24, 2019, 04:19:11 PM
Kerfoot is getting a hearing for his hit?  I donít like guys getting hit there but seriously, that is getting a hearing.   We have had 3 or 4 uncalled hits to the head of Matthews and Tavares but this gets a possible suspension?

Iím fine if we start having a strict standard on stuff but it seems like the wheel of random strikes again

The wheel of random indeed.  Head shots are supposed to be the worst, not a boarding from a guy with no history and which he immediately signaled was a mistake.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on November 24, 2019, 06:24:03 PM
Kerfoot is getting a hearing for his hit?  I donít like guys getting hit there but seriously, that is getting a hearing.   We have had 3 or 4 uncalled hits to the head of Matthews and Tavares but this gets a possible suspension?

Iím fine if we start having a strict standard on stuff but it seems like the wheel of random strikes again

That was a dirty play that is worthy of at least a fine. if Johnson doesn't receive that the right way, his career is over. No need for that play in hockey.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 25, 2019, 09:07:29 AM
That hit reminded me that I have no idea what the difference is between a minor boarding penalty, a major boarding penalty, and a suspendable boarding infraction.

Live, I thought yeah that's a major for sure. It was a stupid, easily preventable hit. Johnson didn't turn at the last second or anything like that. Just a dumb play. I wonder if the refs had handed out a game misconduct for that at the time maybe the league wouldn't be looking at supplementary discipline.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 25, 2019, 10:35:06 AM
That hit reminded me that I have no idea what the difference is between a minor boarding penalty, a major boarding penalty, and a suspendable boarding infraction.

Live, I thought yeah that's a major for sure. It was a stupid, easily preventable hit. Johnson didn't turn at the last second or anything like that. Just a dumb play. I wonder if the refs had handed out a game misconduct for that at the time maybe the league wouldn't be looking at supplementary discipline.

And that bothers me.  If it's a suspendable/supplementary fine hit, make it one.  But I feel like his type of thing happens way too much where the outcome of the hit matters more than the actual act itself.

Marchand licks someone and it's funny because Marchand is a bad boy.  Marchand licks again and it's "please maybe get him to stop" from the league.  A guy spits and its devastatingly awful.  Consistency just doesn't exist from the league. 

They make arbitrary decisions.  I'm perfectly fine if they want to suspend Kerfoot for this, although I've also seen a half dozen other hits that don't even get a penalty let alone a hearing.  The NHL just really doesn't take player safety seriously.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 25, 2019, 11:57:12 AM
You could tell Kerfoot instantly regretted his move, I think his adrenalin exaggerated the hit and Johnson was far enough from the boards at point of impact that the result was somewhat unexpected.
He instantly dropped to ask if he was OK.  He has no history of being a dirty player and should be given a pass for his first infraction.. He can buy Johnson a case of fine wine and send it over to his residence...sorry Bud.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 25, 2019, 12:05:09 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on November 25, 2019, 12:26:11 PM

What is the Svechnikov?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 25, 2019, 12:34:27 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 25, 2019, 02:02:05 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 25, 2019, 02:07:07 PM
I wondered if this was just to get Kaski some extra games this week but the Marlies don't play until Friday/Saturday, which is also exactly when the Leafs have a back-to-back.

So I guess this means Hutchinson is being given another opportunity. Which seems fair. See what he can do with a more dialed-in team in front of him. Gotta imagine he'll have a short leash though.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 25, 2019, 02:11:24 PM
I wondered if this was just to get Kaski some extra games this week but the Marlies don't play until Friday/Saturday, which is also exactly when the Leafs have a back-to-back.

So I guess this means Hutchinson is being given another opportunity. Which seems fair. See what he can do with a more dialed-in team in front of him. Gotta imagine he'll have a short leash though.
Maybe he'll start the 1st game? KK can't be sitting on the bench. He needs to play.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 26, 2019, 11:38:18 AM
https://theathletic.com/1408881/2019/11/25/sheldon-keefe-is-making-radical-changes-to-the-way-the-leafs-operate/

I was buzzed to hear they were doing this and the details make me even happier.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 26, 2019, 11:54:27 AM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 26, 2019, 11:57:21 AM
Maybe he'll start the 1st game? KK can't be sitting on the bench. He needs to play.

Just saw that Friday's game is an early start (4pm). Wouldn't be surprised if Hutch got that one mostly just because playing earlier would throw off Andersen's regular preparation.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 26, 2019, 12:01:13 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 26, 2019, 12:14:45 PM
I wonder how much time will be spent on individual coaching?  It is clear that both Ceci and Rielly need to stop collapsing at the D blue line, where they provide no resistance to the offensive skaters.  I hope they can be taught to close the gaps or angle the O men into the boards or actually to hit someone.  I think if both of these players can play some decent D things will be a lot better for our "top" defensive pairing.   This is my main concern, not the resurrection of the offence.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on November 27, 2019, 02:21:35 PM
Ones I like:
"We Can and We Will"
"Teamwork Makes the Dream Work"
"The List of Hardest Working Players by Mitch Marner"
"Well, I Think the Big Thing is to Keep Grindin' and Stay Steady on the Rudder"
"This is the F---in' Start of Somethin' Special" (JT)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 28, 2019, 02:57:38 PM
Maybe he'll start the 1st game? KK can't be sitting on the bench. He needs to play.

Just saw that Friday's game is an early start (4pm). Wouldn't be surprised if Hutch got that one mostly just because playing earlier would throw off Andersen's regular preparation.

Hutch starts tomorrow:

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 28, 2019, 03:05:57 PM
Maybe he'll start the 1st game? KK can't be sitting on the bench. He needs to play.

Just saw that Friday's game is an early start (4pm). Wouldn't be surprised if Hutch got that one mostly just because playing earlier would throw off Andersen's regular preparation.

Hutch starts tomorrow:

Regardless of the outcome, I like the move. It makes total sense to try something else.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on November 28, 2019, 03:35:01 PM
Hutch starts tomorrow:


I think logic dictates you should play your starter in the first game of a back to back, particularly if the opponent is rested on the 2nd day.

In this case though, since it's the same team, and the 2nd is at home, have at 'er. But I don't think Babcock was doing anything wrong before.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 28, 2019, 03:39:41 PM
Keefe is opposite George.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: lc9 on November 28, 2019, 04:09:25 PM
Hutch starts tomorrow:


I think logic dictates you should play your starter in the first game of a back to back, particularly if the opponent is rested on the 2nd day.

In this case though, since it's the same team, and the 2nd is at home, have at 'er. But I don't think Babcock was doing anything wrong before.

I think itís foolish to leave zero nuance to it.  The blanket strategy of starter first game backup second game is dumb. Eventually I would like to see Andersen start a both games of a back to back and have Hutch/whoever play in less high leverage games. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 28, 2019, 05:35:31 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Strangelove on November 29, 2019, 11:05:24 AM

I wonder if Babcock made him write a list of the Leafs' worst defenders before he was sent down.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on November 29, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Hutch starts tomorrow:


I think logic dictates you should play your starter in the first game of a back to back, particularly if the opponent is rested on the 2nd day.

In this case though, since it's the same team, and the 2nd is at home, have at 'er. But I don't think Babcock was doing anything wrong before.

I think itís foolish to leave zero nuance to it.  The blanket strategy of starter first game backup second game is dumb. Eventually I would like to see Andersen start a both games of a back to back and have Hutch/whoever play in less high leverage games.

Of all the persistent Babcock critiques, this is the dumbest.  There is a heap of data showing that playing a good starter after 0 days rest turns him into a poor backup. It is just about the only thing we know about goalie performance publicly.  Since Andersen needs rest, he definitely should only be playing one of the b2b games.  Thereís just no doubt about it.  As for which game he plays, it just isnít going to make a difference ó there wonít be a detectable difference in total expected points gained over the 2 games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on November 29, 2019, 11:38:07 AM

I think this might be a case where the data is helpful in a general sense but maybe not as applicable specifically here.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 29, 2019, 11:47:37 AM

I think this might be a case where the data is helpful in a general sense but maybe not as applicable specifically here.

I think the data comment in princedpw's post was in response to Andersen playing BOTH games of the back-to-back, not just the first one.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on November 29, 2019, 11:53:52 AM
I think the data comment in princedpw's post was in response to Andersen playing BOTH games of the back-to-back, not just the first one.

That's what I mean though. I can't claim to be an expert on all of the numbers crunched on this one(and, just for instance, if they apply equally to all goalies irrespective of age or whatever) but I think that there can be specific circumstances which warrant making a move in the face of the total aggregated data.

Like, for instance, if playing the second game of a back to back turns a good starter into a bad backup but the alternative is going with a bad backup anyway...maybe you give it a shot and see if Andersen can manage.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 01, 2019, 12:01:13 PM
Thoughts on the Leafs ability to move some salary out with the return of Marner coming. Moore should also be coming back at some point. I think Engvall and Mikheyev also afford Leafs the ability to move on from Hyman.
This may free up the opportunity to get a half decent back up as well as another half decent defense.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 01, 2019, 12:23:17 PM
How to afford Mikheyev next season is a challenging question.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Andy on December 01, 2019, 01:02:59 PM
I wonder if we might see Johnsson shipped out for a competent back up (and maybe a veteran D man). I'm not sure Johnsson really fits anywhere in the top 6 on this team and they have some viable bottom 6 options. Kerfoot, at the same cap hit, can slide into his spot on left wing or play centre and you're shedding more cap with moving him out over Hyman (while probably getting more quality in return too).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 01, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
How to afford Mikheyev next season is a challenging question.

I think how to afford an NHL quality defense next season is an even more challenging question.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 01, 2019, 04:26:49 PM
Like, for instance, if playing the second game of a back to back turns a good starter into a bad backup but the alternative is going with a bad backup anyway...maybe you give it a shot and see if Andersen can manage.

It's somewhat humorous that the conversation has changed from "Andersen is playing way too much and doesn't have any gas for the playoffs, terrible coaching" to "let's consider playing him on back to backs"  ;D

Odds to win the 2nd game aside, I'd be fairly confident in saying that if Andersen gets injured, the season is lost, so I'd say that's reason enough not to play him on consecutive nights.

This is a problem for Dubas to solve, not the coach/players, imo.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 01, 2019, 06:38:27 PM
I wonder if we might see Johnsson shipped out for a competent back up (and maybe a veteran D man). I'm not sure Johnsson really fits anywhere in the top 6 on this team and they have some viable bottom 6 options. Kerfoot, at the same cap hit, can slide into his spot on left wing or play centre and you're shedding more cap with moving him out over Hyman (while probably getting more quality in return too).
A competent backup is not worth anything close to Johnsson.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on December 01, 2019, 09:34:17 PM
I wonder if we might see Johnsson shipped out for a competent back up (and maybe a veteran D man). I'm not sure Johnsson really fits anywhere in the top 6 on this team and they have some viable bottom 6 options. Kerfoot, at the same cap hit, can slide into his spot on left wing or play centre and you're shedding more cap with moving him out over Hyman (while probably getting more quality in return too).
A competent backup is not worth anything close to Johnsson.

Rumour had it that the Leafs were interested in one of the backups that the Penguins have.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 01, 2019, 10:14:39 PM
It's somewhat humorous that the conversation has changed from "Andersen is playing way too much and doesn't have any gas for the playoffs, terrible coaching" to "let's consider playing him on back to backs"  ;D

Ok, but I never said the former so take it up with someone who did.

Odds to win the 2nd game aside, I'd be fairly confident in saying that if Andersen gets injured, the season is lost, so I'd say that's reason enough not to play him on consecutive nights.

I don't think there's any reason to believe playing two nights in a row, occasionally, will significantly increase odds of injury.

Seriously, the way some of you talk about Andersen makes me effectively think the Leafs are more or less doomed regardless. "The only way to win is if we do everything we can not to strain our fragile, fragile Goalie" isn't filling me with confidence.

The playoffs are a long and tiring stretch that demand a degree of endurance. If playing the occasional back to back in the early part of the season while the Leafs don't have their backup situation sorted means he can't be effective come playoff time there's no way he'll make it through the playoffs regardless.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 02, 2019, 01:29:32 AM
I think the data comment in princedpw's post was in response to Andersen playing BOTH games of the back-to-back, not just the first one.

That's what I mean though. I can't claim to be an expert on all of the numbers crunched on this one(and, just for instance, if they apply equally to all goalies irrespective of age or whatever) but I think that there can be specific circumstances which warrant making a move in the face of the total aggregated data.

Like, for instance, if playing the second game of a back to back turns a good starter into a bad backup but the alternative is going with a bad backup anyway...maybe you give it a shot and see if Andersen can manage.

It is quite possible (likely even) that Andersen would be better, even on 0 days rest, because Hutch has been that bad.  But it does seem to be the general consensus that a goalie canít play all the games these days (I donít have data on what happens when a goalie plays 40 vs 50, 60, 70 games but Iím assuming that after 70, things get pretty grim because nobody in the NHL does it these days). So if you are going to rest a guy, one of the nights of a b2b is the optimal time to do it.  If you feel you can never rest your starter because your backup is that bad, youíve got to get a new backup.

As for whether to rest your starter the first night vs the second, or against the stronger opponent vs the weaker, Iím claiming it is not going to matter.  In order for it to matter, choosing Andersen over Hutch in one game would have to change the leafs probability of winning by a lot and choosing Andersen over Hutch in the other game would have change the leafs probability of winning by only a little.  I donít believe that happens (could explain why later perhaps, but if you think it does happen, how many fractional points could be saved in a b2b? How many over all the leafs b2bs over the entire season?).  If it were basketball, the situation could be different, because win probabilities vary far more widely, with ďsure winsĒ or ďsure lossesĒ coming for certain teams regardless of whether they rest a star, for instance.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 02, 2019, 01:38:01 AM
It's somewhat humorous that the conversation has changed from "Andersen is playing way too much and doesn't have any gas for the playoffs, terrible coaching" to "let's consider playing him on back to backs"  ;D

Ok, but I never said the former so take it up with someone who did.

Odds to win the 2nd game aside, I'd be fairly confident in saying that if Andersen gets injured, the season is lost, so I'd say that's reason enough not to play him on consecutive nights.

I don't think there's any reason to believe playing two nights in a row, occasionally, will significantly increase odds of injury.

Seriously, the way some of you talk about Andersen makes me effectively think the Leafs are more or less doomed regardless. "The only way to win is if we do everything we can not to strain our fragile, fragile Goalie" isn't filling me with confidence.

The playoffs are a long and tiring stretch that demand a degree of endurance. If playing the occasional back to back in the early part of the season while the Leafs don't have their backup situation sorted means he can't be effective come playoff time there's no way he'll make it through the playoffs regardless.

In hindsight, it does seem likely that playing Andersen both nights of a b2b could have resulted in more points.... they certainly would have had a tough time getting fewer! But rather than playing your starter both nights, I think a team should be getting a different backup because it is not sustainable to keep going with that starter and most backups give you as good a chance to win as that starter on the 2nd night. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 02, 2019, 09:25:22 AM
In hindsight, it does seem likely that playing Andersen both nights of a b2b could have resulted in more points.... they certainly would have had a tough time getting fewer! But rather than playing your starter both nights, I think a team should be getting a different backup because it is not sustainable to keep going with that starter and most backups give you as good a chance to win as that starter on the 2nd night.

I've been pretty vocal about my feelings that Dubas made a big mistake in signing all 3 of Kerfoot, Kapanen and Johnsson at the expense of bringing in a better back-up goalie and having some wiggle-room cap wise so you don't need to convince me that ultimately that was the better call but, with that said, it's pretty easy to say now that the answer is to bring in a better back-up without really knowing the market for that. Especially with the Leafs being desperate at the moment.

So is playing Andersen in back to backs a sustainable long term strategy? No. Is it maybe the better coaching decision at the moment? I think right now it's hard to see what they've had as being worse.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 02, 2019, 10:02:33 AM
I think Keefe is in a tough spot here, like Babcock was...I think you have to start Andersen on both weeknights this week...Tuesday start, Wednesday start, then 2 full days of rest, Saturday start.

They're dangerously close to falling out of playoff position.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 10:05:38 AM
I think Keefe is in a tough spot here, like Babcock was...I think you have to start Andersen on both weeknights this week...Tuesday start, Wednesday start, then 2 full days of rest, Saturday start.

They're dangerously close to falling out of playoff position.

If you're not giving whoever the back-up is a start during a B2B, then when is he playing? Andersen isn't going to play the next 54 games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 10:12:49 AM
I like how they did the Buffalo H@H set, given both teams were on the B2B. The only reason it didn't work out in our favour for 4 pts is a messy second period in game 1.

The upcoming set with Philadelphia and Colorado will be against two rested teams and the Leafs are travelling, so I don't expect anything good in that second game either way.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 10:13:58 AM
Kapanen for Georgiev, pls
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Peter D. on December 02, 2019, 10:45:28 AM
So is playing Andersen in back to backs a sustainable long term strategy? No. Is it maybe the better coaching decision at the moment? I think right now it's hard to see what they've had as being worse.

One of the main (few) things I questioned about Babcock was his insistence to split the back-to-backs.  No matter how the game went the night before, Andersen was going to sit.  Easy win the night before and facing a divisional opponent that night -- nope...doesn't matter...Andersen is sitting.  Now, I get it, you don't want to run your starter to the ground and want to give him a break.  But getting him to start a couple back-to-backs a year isn't going to burn him out, especially if he gets a couple other games off along the way. 

Problem is, there is no trust in any backup the team has had since McElhinney, so Andersen skipping out on a Wednesday game against Ottawa to get a five-day break just isn't going to happen.  That has to be rectified by the GM, otherwise we're going to see an overworked Andersen again come March/April and playoff time.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 02, 2019, 10:55:38 AM
Kapanen for Georgiev, pls

I think Kapanen's risen above Johnsson in my rankings, though I suspect it's a coin toss for most. It might depend on your optimism on Bracco or Engvall. I keep Kapanen though because he can kill penalties.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 11:03:58 AM
Kapanen for Georgiev, pls

I think Kapanen's risen above Johnsson in my rankings, though I suspect it's a coin toss for most. It might depend on your optimism on Bracco or Engvall. I keep Kapanen though because he can kill penalties.

He can get breakaways sometimes on PK, but he is positionally about as sound as Matthews. Which is to say, not.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 11:28:00 AM

Marner can't play until Wednesday at the earliest, but when he does return things are going to look a little different than what we're used to. Hyman not in the top-6, and Rielly potentially not on the top PP unit.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 02, 2019, 11:29:18 AM
Nice! That's exactly what I was hoping for in lines.

You know, rewarding good play.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 11:30:05 AM
This is going to be interesting. Nylander staying on PP1 <3

Cap ramifications abound as well. I think Shore and Timashov could make it through waivers at this point.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 11:34:30 AM

This is word for word the response I expected from Dubas. He probably makes a trade anyway mid December.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 02, 2019, 11:52:05 AM

This is word for word the response I expected from Dubas. He probably makes a trade anyway mid December.

Yeah what a line of BS.  Hutchinson has had what, 7 or 8 opportunities now and while maybe 3 of them were team-hopeless from the get-go.  But the last game in Buffalo sure wasn't.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 12:05:49 PM
This is word for word the response I expected from Dubas. He probably makes a trade anyway mid December.

After this upcoming B2B, the Leafs have a pretty favourable schedule for about 2 weeks. Then it's 3 games in 4 nights right before the Christmas break and a B2B immediately after the Christmas break. They don't have a single B2B in January but they do play 8 games in 17 days before their bye week so it's basically a game every other day. Then in February they have 15 games in 29 days.

So yeah Dubas has 2 weeks to fix this problem.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 02, 2019, 12:06:15 PM
Now that he's had a fresh team in front of him for a game I can say that Hutch is fine for perimeter low-quality shots, even a lot of them. But any high-quality opportunities he's severely exposed. If the Leafs can limit high-quality chances to an absolute bare minimum during a game, he's got a shot. But doing that for a complete 60 minutes the Leafs have difficulty with, especially against teams that are league average or above.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2019, 12:44:14 PM

This is word for word the response I expected from Dubas. He probably makes a trade anyway mid December.

Yeah what a line of BS.  Hutchinson has had what, 7 or 8 opportunities now and while maybe 3 of them were team-hopeless from the get-go.  But the last game in Buffalo sure wasn't.


What do you expect him as GM to say? "I'm 100% looking for a new backup cause Hutchinson sucks the bag, how's that?"
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: lamajama on December 02, 2019, 12:48:21 PM

This is word for word the response I expected from Dubas. He probably makes a trade anyway mid December.

Yeah what a line of BS.  Hutchinson has had what, 7 or 8 opportunities now and while maybe 3 of them were team-hopeless from the get-go.  But the last game in Buffalo sure wasn't.


What do you expect him as GM to say? "I'm 100% looking for a new backup cause Hutchinson sucks the bag, how's that?"

Exactly. He has to back up his players regardless, otherwise it lowers whatever confidence/value that Hutch has left.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 12:49:24 PM

Shockingly we weren't the first team to have to do this!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 12:53:04 PM

Like playing defence.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 02, 2019, 12:53:59 PM
Maybe the best thing would be to hire CuJo to come in. He'd probably be at least as good as Hutch and would be extra-motivated to do well since it would help him hold off Hank on the all-time wins list.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 02, 2019, 12:55:42 PM
Maybe the best thing would be to hire CuJo to come in. He'd probably be at least as good as Hutch and would be extra-motivated to do well since it would help him hold off Hank on the all-time wins list.

He is 52 years old.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Rob on December 02, 2019, 12:56:52 PM
Maybe the best thing would be to hire CuJo to come in. He'd probably be at least as good as Hutch and would be extra-motivated to do well since it would help him hold off Hank on the all-time wins list.

He is 52 years old.

Probably still better than Hutch. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 02, 2019, 01:03:05 PM
Maybe the best thing would be to hire CuJo to come in. He'd probably be at least as good as Hutch and would be extra-motivated to do well since it would help him hold off Hank on the all-time wins list.

He is 52 years old.

Probably still better than Hutch.
Too young to be put in the pressure-cooker? How about Ken Dryden then? He looks like he can still lift a catching glove. I'd have gone with Johnny Bower but sadly that's no longer an option (and it wouldn't be politically correct to say that Johnny is still probably better than Hutch). :(
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2019, 01:04:51 PM
I'm so anxious to see Mitch play under Keefe. The new offensive freedom should allow him to just go off on points.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 01:07:42 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 01:08:12 PM
I'm so anxious to see Mitch play under Keefe. The new offensive freedom should allow him to just go off on points.

He kind of already did that before Keefe...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 02, 2019, 01:52:19 PM
Clip of Johny T over at the Athletic taking skating drills from Barb Underhill.  Very impressive to see the work he is putting in at 29.  Nice to see that even him at 29 can still learn new stuff.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 02, 2019, 02:06:27 PM
Good to see Marner back on the ice.   I might be optimistic but adding a PPG forward probably makes the team better
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 02, 2019, 03:15:52 PM
If you had to free up space somewhere in order to upgrade the Leafs 2nd goalie, where would you subtract from? The Leafs are getting excellent value from their league-minimum forwards, and there's nothing to indicate that Dubas won't continue doing that moving forward, with marlies, KHL signings, and "legacy" deals (Spezza).

Forwards making above league-minimum (not named Auston Marnlandavares):
Kerfoot ($3.5-million)
Johnsson ($3.4-million)
Kapanen ($3.2-million)
Hyman ($2.25-million)

The player that, being moved, would hurt the Leafs the least I believe would be Kerfoot. With Spezza settling into 3C, and Gauthier, Petan and Shore options at centre (all making league-minimum).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 03:18:31 PM
Um Cody Ceci?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 03:26:10 PM
Um Cody Ceci?

Keefe has pretty much come in and changed every single thing that the Leafs fanbase (and probably Dubas) wished Babcock did in like the span of a week. The one thing that's remained constant is their use of Ceci. That reinforces my belief that Dubas is a Ceci-truther.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 02, 2019, 03:28:08 PM
If you had to free up space somewhere in order to upgrade the Leafs 2nd goalie, where would you subtract from? The Leafs are getting excellent value from their league-minimum forwards, and there's nothing to indicate that Dubas won't continue doing that moving forward, with marlies, KHL signings, and "legacy" deals (Spezza).

Forwards making above league-minimum (not named Auston Marnlandavares):
Kerfoot ($3.5-million)
Johnsson ($3.4-million)
Kapanen ($3.2-million)
Hyman ($2.25-million)

The player that, being moved, would hurt the Leafs the least I believe would be Kerfoot. With Spezza settling into 3C, and Gauthier, Petan and Shore options at centre (all making league-minimum).
I would probably move CC but going by your list, I'll disagree with you..Spezza, while I like him, is not a 3rd line permanent centre option. Kerfoot is the future 3rd line centre for us. Goat and Shore are nothing more then 4th line centres. Petan I think could move up the line up but as a winger only. Hyman is the logical choice to go. $2.25M for a checking forward is too much to pay in this day and age of the NHL.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2019, 03:37:18 PM
Um Cody Ceci?

Keefe has pretty much come in and changed every single thing that the Leafs fanbase (and probably Dubas) wished Babcock did in like the span of a week. The one thing that's remained constant is their use of Ceci. That reinforces my belief that Dubas is a Ceci-truther.

If he was truly in on long term Ceci, itíd be Cody paired with Jake, not Justin. I still smell a one-piece cap clearance ticket.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 04:00:35 PM
If he was truly in on long term Ceci, itíd be Cody paired with Jake, not Justin. I still smell a one-piece cap clearance ticket.

I'm not saying that he's here long-term. But I've tried to argue for awhile now that Dubas acquired him for a purpose, he wasn't just forced on him. And even under Keefe he's playing 23 minutes a night. I just don't think anyone in the organization views him as trade bait to acquire a back-up goalie.

edit: I'm also not sure what you mean by playing with Muzzin. Unless I'm mistaken, the Rielly-Ceci pairing has still been getting the top match-ups, not Muzzin's.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 02, 2019, 04:26:45 PM
If you had to free up space somewhere in order to upgrade the Leafs 2nd goalie, where would you subtract from? The Leafs are getting excellent value from their league-minimum forwards, and there's nothing to indicate that Dubas won't continue doing that moving forward, with marlies, KHL signings, and "legacy" deals (Spezza).

Forwards making above league-minimum (not named Auston Marnlandavares):
Kerfoot ($3.5-million)
Johnsson ($3.4-million)
Kapanen ($3.2-million)
Hyman ($2.25-million)

The player that, being moved, would hurt the Leafs the least I believe would be Kerfoot. With Spezza settling into 3C, and Gauthier, Petan and Shore options at centre (all making league-minimum).
I would probably move CC but going by your list, I'll disagree with you..Spezza, while I like him, is not a 3rd line permanent centre option. Kerfoot is the future 3rd line centre for us. Goat and Shore are nothing more then 4th line centres. Petan I think could move up the line up but as a winger only. Hyman is the logical choice to go. $2.25M for a checking forward is too much to pay in this day and age of the NHL.
I would prefer to see Engvall as our 3rd line centre, if this means moving Kerfoot to the wing so be it. 4th line this year can be Timashov-Spezza-Goatman
I also wonder where Moore will fit in upon his return,  I wonder if he was playing injured the last 8 games as his game was not the same in the last little span of play.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 02, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
I think Keefe is in a tough spot here, like Babcock was...I think you have to start Andersen on both weeknights this week...Tuesday start, Wednesday start, then 2 full days of rest, Saturday start.

They're dangerously close to falling out of playoff position.

If you're not giving whoever the back-up is a start during a B2B, then when is he playing? Andersen isn't going to play the next 54 games.

Well, to be honest with you, I'm still reeling from the TMLfans effort rankings report.  So I don't really have an answer for this.  My confidence is all shot to hell.

If I did have an answer, it would be ride Andersen until they can acquire a back-up.

This team isn't built to play stifling defense for long stretches...they'll score a lot of goals, but they'll need goaltending to get wins. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Joe S. on December 02, 2019, 04:37:13 PM
I heard a trade proposal this weekend on the radio which made me laugh.

ĎNylander for a backup goalie, a stay at home defenceman and a checking forwardí

The stuff Burkeís dreams are made of.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2019, 04:41:15 PM
Well, to be honest with you, I'm still reeling from the TMLfans effort rankings report.  So I don't really have an answer for this.  My confidence is all shot to hell.

You waiting a week to respond really just reinforces your spot on the rankings.

If I did have an answer, it would be ride Andersen until they can acquire a back-up.

This team isn't built to play stifling defense for long stretches...they'll score a lot of goals, but they'll need goaltending to get wins. 

I guess if Dubas is reasonably certain he can acquire a back-up goalie in the next 2 weeks, saying frick it and giving Andersen both starts this week wouldn't be the end of the world. But I just can't see that happening on a consistent basis.

As an aside, would it kind of suck if Hutchinson actually plays really well on Wednesday? Does that delay or even halt Dubas' search for a new back-up goalie even though it's almost certainly still something the team would need?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2019, 05:01:33 PM
I'm so anxious to see Mitch play under Keefe. The new offensive freedom should allow him to just go off on points.

He kind of already did that before Keefe...


Not 5 on 5 this season
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: RedLeaf on December 02, 2019, 05:33:33 PM
Anyone have an ETA for Marners return? Must be getting close.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 02, 2019, 05:36:42 PM
Not till Saturday at the earliest and that came from my crystal ball
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 02, 2019, 05:36:57 PM
Well, to be honest with you, I'm still reeling from the TMLfans effort rankings report.  So I don't really have an answer for this.  My confidence is all shot to hell.

You waiting a week to respond really just reinforces your spot on the rankings.

If I did have an answer, it would be ride Andersen until they can acquire a back-up.

This team isn't built to play stifling defense for long stretches...they'll score a lot of goals, but they'll need goaltending to get wins. 

I guess if Dubas is reasonably certain he can acquire a back-up goalie in the next 2 weeks, saying frick it and giving Andersen both starts this week wouldn't be the end of the world. But I just can't see that happening on a consistent basis.

As an aside, would it kind of suck if Hutchinson actually plays really well on Wednesday? Does that delay or even halt Dubas' search for a new back-up goalie even though it's almost certainly still something the team would need?

Yeah, there really just isn't a Hutch scenario here that doesn't end up in Dubas being in a very precarious position, regardless of a few good games.

It's like a deathwatch right now though.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 02, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
If you had to free up space somewhere in order to upgrade the Leafs 2nd goalie, where would you subtract from? The Leafs are getting excellent value from their league-minimum forwards, and there's nothing to indicate that Dubas won't continue doing that moving forward, with marlies, KHL signings, and "legacy" deals (Spezza).

Forwards making above league-minimum (not named Auston Marnlandavares):
Kerfoot ($3.5-million)
Johnsson ($3.4-million)
Kapanen ($3.2-million)
Hyman ($2.25-million)

The player that, being moved, would hurt the Leafs the least I believe would be Kerfoot. With Spezza settling into 3C, and Gauthier, Petan and Shore options at centre (all making league-minimum).
I would probably move CC but going by your list, I'll disagree with you..Spezza, while I like him, is not a 3rd line permanent centre option. Kerfoot is the future 3rd line centre for us. Goat and Shore are nothing more then 4th line centres. Petan I think could move up the line up but as a winger only. Hyman is the logical choice to go. $2.25M for a checking forward is too much to pay in this day and age of the NHL.
I would prefer to see Engvall as our 3rd line centre, if this means moving Kerfoot to the wing so be it. 4th line this year can be Timashov-Spezza-Goatman
I also wonder where Moore will fit in upon his return,  I wonder if he was playing injured the last 8 games as his game was not the same in the last little span of play.
Oh I like Engvall for 3rd line centre to but lets see what he can do when/if he actually plays centre here. I'd have no issue moving Kerfoot back to his natural position. Moore is a 4th line guy, 3rd line in a pinch, possibly higher if need be. Has great energy. As for playing hurt, not so sure about that. He got hammered with a great bodycheck and left the game and hasn't been back since.
As for where Moore fits, who knows. All I know, barring LTIR, 1 or 2 guys are going on waivers.
Anyway back on your original question, Hyman is the guy to move.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: lamajama on December 02, 2019, 10:34:05 PM
Although he was actually a bit noticeable in the last game, The Goat could be sat. Heís just an offensive black hole. He certainly tries his best but....
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 03, 2019, 09:29:12 AM
I think Keefe is in a tough spot here, like Babcock was...I think you have to start Andersen on both weeknights this week...Tuesday start, Wednesday start, then 2 full days of rest, Saturday start.

They're dangerously close to falling out of playoff position.

If you're not giving whoever the back-up is a start during a B2B, then when is he playing? Andersen isn't going to play the next 54 games.

Well, to be honest with you, I'm still reeling from the TMLfans effort rankings report.  So I don't really have an answer for this.  My confidence is all shot to hell.

If I did have an answer, it would be ride Andersen until they can acquire a back-up.

This team isn't built to play stifling defense for long stretches...they'll score a lot of goals, but they'll need goaltending to get wins.

Suck it up, buttercup.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 03, 2019, 09:52:21 AM
I think Keefe is in a tough spot here, like Babcock was...I think you have to start Andersen on both weeknights this week...Tuesday start, Wednesday start, then 2 full days of rest, Saturday start.

They're dangerously close to falling out of playoff position.

If you're not giving whoever the back-up is a start during a B2B, then when is he playing? Andersen isn't going to play the next 54 games.

Well, to be honest with you, I'm still reeling from the TMLfans effort rankings report.  So I don't really have an answer for this.  My confidence is all shot to hell.

If I did have an answer, it would be ride Andersen until they can acquire a back-up.

This team isn't built to play stifling defense for long stretches...they'll score a lot of goals, but they'll need goaltending to get wins.

Suck it up, buttercup.

That's it.  I've had enough.

I'm taking stress leave.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 03, 2019, 12:10:25 PM
Anyone have an ETA for Marners return? Must be getting close.
Wednesday..Shore on waivers
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 03, 2019, 12:12:01 PM
Ship to Shore, ship to Shore "Just swim 5 miles to you right, you will come upon Robidas Island,  a nice tropical cocktail is awaiting with a Poo Poo Plater"
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 03, 2019, 12:17:45 PM

So if Marner returns tomorrow Shore, Petan, Engvall, and Marincin would all need to get sent down to the Marlies and the Leafs would have a 20-man roster with Moore on the IR.

If the Leafs wanted to keep an additional player for a little bit they could move Moore to LTIR. He would only need to be expected to miss about another week or so to be eligible for that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 03, 2019, 12:23:24 PM
Are we about to get a skill 4th line...

Does Mitch Marner come in for the opening draw on a zip line firing Skittles out of a tshirt cannon?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 03, 2019, 12:37:16 PM

So if Marner returns tomorrow Shore, Petan, Engvall, and Marincin would all need to get sent down to the Marlies and the Leafs would have a 20-man roster with Moore on the IR.

If the Leafs wanted to keep an additional player for a little bit they could move Moore to LTIR. He would only need to be expected to miss about another week or so to be eligible for that.
The Leafs have $202,857 in space and a 21 man roster. 13 forwards, 6 D, 2 goalies. Engvall, Petan, Shore, Marincin out. Someone will def be going down for road games. Can't see them carrying an extra forward instead of a D man. If the Leafs wanted to keep Engvall up, they'll have to put Moore on LTIR like you said or waive him.  Was kind of hoping to see Goat get waived but no. I think Spezza has earned his spot.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 03, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
The Leafs have $202,857 in space and a 21 man roster. 13 forwards, 6 D, 2 goalies. Engvall, Petan, Shore, Marincin out. Someone will def be going down for road games. Can't see them carrying an extra forward instead of a D man. If the Leafs wanted to keep Engvall up, they'll have to put Moore on LTIR like you said or waive him.  Was kind of hoping to see Goat get waived but no. I think Spezza has earned his spot.

There was a time when I was wondering if Timashov would get through waivers but now I think he probably could. So if he was waived too soon that would give the Leafs the flexibility to essentially yo-yo him, Petan, Shore, and Marincin throughout the entire season depending on who they want filling the 21st roster spot.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 03, 2019, 12:53:45 PM
The Leafs have $202,857 in space and a 21 man roster. 13 forwards, 6 D, 2 goalies. Engvall, Petan, Shore, Marincin out. Someone will def be going down for road games. Can't see them carrying an extra forward instead of a D man. If the Leafs wanted to keep Engvall up, they'll have to put Moore on LTIR like you said or waive him.  Was kind of hoping to see Goat get waived but no. I think Spezza has earned his spot.
Think you are wrong on Timashov, he won't make it through Waivers.

There was a time when I was wondering if Timashov would get through waivers but now I think he probably could. So if he was waived too soon that would give the Leafs the flexibility to essentially yo-yo him, Petan, Shore, and Marincin throughout the entire season depending on who they want filling the 21st roster spot.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on December 03, 2019, 12:56:15 PM

So if Marner returns tomorrow Shore, Petan, Engvall, and Marincin would all need to get sent down to the Marlies and the Leafs would have a 20-man roster with Moore on the IR.

If the Leafs wanted to keep an additional player for a little bit they could move Moore to LTIR. He would only need to be expected to miss about another week or so to be eligible for that.

LTIR is not retroactive.  If they move Moore to LTIR today, he'd still have to miss the entire minimum LTIR period beginning today. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 03, 2019, 01:04:46 PM
LTIR is not retroactive.  If they move Moore to LTIR today, he'd still have to miss the entire minimum LTIR period beginning today. 

Getting some serious deja vu here:

3.  Unfortunately LTIR is not retroactive.  So if they wait 2 weeks, find out JT needs a bit more time, he's gotta sit 10 games or 24 days from the day they put him on LTIR.  Only IR is retroactive.

Believe it is: CBA 50.10.d.vi

A Club may elect to replace a Player who is unfit to play under this Bona-
Fide Long-Term Injury Exception at any point during the period that he is
unfit to play, and any days and games already missed by the Player as a
result of his being unfit to play (i.e., the injury/illness causing him to miss
more than twenty-four (24) calendar days and ten (10) NHL Regular
Season games) prior to the election of the Bona-Fide Long-Term
Injury/Illness Exception shall retroactively count
toward the missed
twenty-four (24) calendar days and ten (10) NHL Regular Season games
for the Player.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 03, 2019, 01:32:54 PM
Ya, that would make no sense for it to be not retroactive.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 03, 2019, 01:58:50 PM
The Leafs have $202,857 in space and a 21 man roster. 13 forwards, 6 D, 2 goalies. Engvall, Petan, Shore, Marincin out. Someone will def be going down for road games. Can't see them carrying an extra forward instead of a D man. If the Leafs wanted to keep Engvall up, they'll have to put Moore on LTIR like you said or waive him.  Was kind of hoping to see Goat get waived but no. I think Spezza has earned his spot.

There was a time when I was wondering if Timashov would get through waivers but now I think he probably could. So if he was waived too soon that would give the Leafs the flexibility to essentially yo-yo him, Petan, Shore, and Marincin throughout the entire season depending on who they want filling the 21st roster spot.
They'll have to get creative with their yo yoing. This is what I found..When a player clears waivers and is sent down and then is called up again, he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down again unless he has played ten games or has been "up" for 30 days. Just an example. Petan was waived on Sept 30th, sent down Oct1, recalled Oct3, sent down Nov 1, called up Nov 5, waived again on Nov 7, down the 8th, up again on the 12th.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 03, 2019, 02:02:48 PM
They'll have to get creative with their yo yoing. This is what I found..When a player clears waivers and is sent down and then is called up again, he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down again unless he has played ten games or has been "up" for 30 days. Just an example. Petan was waived on Sept 30th, sent down Oct1, recalled Oct3, sent down Nov 1, called up Nov 5, waived again on Nov 7, down the 8th, up again on the 12th.

Right. Odds are though if they cleared waivers once they can probably do it again later on (like Petan did).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 03, 2019, 02:09:12 PM
They'll have to get creative with their yo yoing. This is what I found..When a player clears waivers and is sent down and then is called up again, he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down again unless he has played ten games or has been "up" for 30 days. Just an example. Petan was waived on Sept 30th, sent down Oct1, recalled Oct3, sent down Nov 1, called up Nov 5, waived again on Nov 7, down the 8th, up again on the 12th.

Right. Odds are though if they cleared waivers once they can probably do it again later on (like Petan did).
True enough. It's going to get interesting when Moore is healthy and the Leafs have to send another guy down, if they plan on carrying 7 D men on the road. Timashov or Moore. Maybe Goat?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 03, 2019, 05:42:30 PM

There ya go. I'd expect Moore to (retroactively) go on LTIR when Marner comes off of it then. It'd keep one of Marincin/Petan/Engvall/Shore on the roster while he's out.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 03, 2019, 06:14:17 PM
They'll have to get creative with their yo yoing. This is what I found..When a player clears waivers and is sent down and then is called up again, he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down again unless he has played ten games or has been "up" for 30 days. Just an example. Petan was waived on Sept 30th, sent down Oct1, recalled Oct3, sent down Nov 1, called up Nov 5, waived again on Nov 7, down the 8th, up again on the 12th.

Right. Odds are though if they cleared waivers once they can probably do it again later on (like Petan did).
True enough. It's going to get interesting when Moore is healthy and the Leafs have to send another guy down, if they plan on carrying 7 D men on the road. Timashov or Moore. Maybe Goat?

Or maybe someone else is injured and they keep putting off the inevitable indefinitely. 🙂
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 03, 2019, 06:19:05 PM
They'll have to get creative with their yo yoing. This is what I found..When a player clears waivers and is sent down and then is called up again, he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down again unless he has played ten games or has been "up" for 30 days. Just an example. Petan was waived on Sept 30th, sent down Oct1, recalled Oct3, sent down Nov 1, called up Nov 5, waived again on Nov 7, down the 8th, up again on the 12th.

Right. Odds are though if they cleared waivers once they can probably do it again later on (like Petan did).
True enough. It's going to get interesting when Moore is healthy and the Leafs have to send another guy down, if they plan on carrying 7 D men on the road. Timashov or Moore. Maybe Goat?
Tried to say this before unsuccessfully. Timashov will not clear waivers in my belief.  Can't let the lad go for nothing.  I would consider trading Goat to Montreal. Good Pie there.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 03, 2019, 06:58:22 PM
They'll have to get creative with their yo yoing. This is what I found..When a player clears waivers and is sent down and then is called up again, he does not have to clear waivers to be sent down again unless he has played ten games or has been "up" for 30 days. Just an example. Petan was waived on Sept 30th, sent down Oct1, recalled Oct3, sent down Nov 1, called up Nov 5, waived again on Nov 7, down the 8th, up again on the 12th.

Right. Odds are though if they cleared waivers once they can probably do it again later on (like Petan did).
True enough. It's going to get interesting when Moore is healthy and the Leafs have to send another guy down, if they plan on carrying 7 D men on the road. Timashov or Moore. Maybe Goat?
Tried to say this before unsuccessfully. Timashov will not clear waivers in my belief.  Can't let the lad go for nothing.  I would consider trading Goat to Montreal. Good Pie there.
I'd put Goat on waivers before Timashov
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 04, 2019, 11:33:39 AM

So who else is sort of coming around on the idea that the Leafs being bad this year might be a low-key good thing if it leads to them being sellers at the deadline?

Because if Muzzin/Barrie/A forward can be turned into a way to restock the shelves of a depleted farm system it's probably better long term than a low playoff seed and a likely early exit.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2019, 11:54:26 AM
So who else is sort of coming around on the idea that the Leafs being bad this year might be a low-key good thing if it leads to them being sellers at the deadline?

Because if Muzzin/Barrie/A forward can be turned into a way to restock the shelves of a depleted farm system it's probably better long term than a low playoff seed and a likely early exit.

I was thinking the same thing before Babcock was let go. Muzzin and Barrie would both fetch nice returns at the deadline, and some of the other pending UFAs could at least bring in some late round picks. If they haven't solidified a spot by close to the deadline, it's definitely something they should be considering.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 04, 2019, 11:55:52 AM
Personally I don't want to tank at this point. I think Keefe needs about another 10 games to see what his adjustments will be. Will he keep Ceci and Rielly together? Hopefully not.  Why was St.Louis scouting us so hard for a week or so?  What effect will Marner have on the team? Will they get a capable back up?
Lots of questions that remain unanswered.  We could wish that Keefe had control of the team since the offseason but we know what wishes get.  If in ten games they are still in the same place then perhaps start to sell off.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 04, 2019, 12:56:55 PM

So who else is sort of coming around on the idea that the Leafs being bad this year might be a low-key good thing if it leads to them being sellers at the deadline?

Because if Muzzin/Barrie/A forward can be turned into a way to restock the shelves of a depleted farm system it's probably better long term than a low playoff seed and a likely early exit.

What's tg6e deal on the pick that went with Marleau? How is it protected?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 04, 2019, 12:58:01 PM

So who else is sort of coming around on the idea that the Leafs being bad this year might be a low-key good thing if it leads to them being sellers at the deadline?

Because if Muzzin/Barrie/A forward can be turned into a way to restock the shelves of a depleted farm system it's probably better long term than a low playoff seed and a likely early exit.

What's tg6e deal on the pick that went with Marleau? How is it protected?

Top ten
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 04, 2019, 01:01:14 PM

So who else is sort of coming around on the idea that the Leafs being bad this year might be a low-key good thing if it leads to them being sellers at the deadline?

Because if Muzzin/Barrie/A forward can be turned into a way to restock the shelves of a depleted farm system it's probably better long term than a low playoff seed and a likely early exit.

What's tg6e deal on the pick that went with Marleau? How is it protected?

Top ten

They get next year's if this year's is top 10? Supposed to be a great draft, might not be a bad time to restock???
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 04, 2019, 01:10:54 PM
So who else is sort of coming around on the idea that the Leafs being bad this year might be a low-key good thing if it leads to them being sellers at the deadline?

Because if Muzzin/Barrie/A forward can be turned into a way to restock the shelves of a depleted farm system it's probably better long term than a low playoff seed and a likely early exit.

I was thinking the same thing before Babcock was let go. Muzzin and Barrie would both fetch nice returns at the deadline, and some of the other pending UFAs could at least bring in some late round picks. If they haven't solidified a spot by close to the deadline, it's definitely something they should be considering.

Yep.

They already frittered away Bozak and JVR for nothing based on flimsy hopes of playoff success.  Don't do it again for God's sake.

The defense needs a near-complete overhaul before there's any hope of being a real contender.  That much at least has been laid bare by this subpar start.

I'll keep beating the drum for moving at least one of Barrie or Muzzin if there's a sell-high opportunity.  Bring up Sandin and/or Liljegren and let them learn in this level so they both aren't raw rookies next season.

Call it a semi-tank.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2019, 01:35:28 PM
Personally I don't want to tank at this point. I think Keefe needs about another 10 games to see what his adjustments will be. Will he keep Ceci and Rielly together? Hopefully not.  Why was St.Louis scouting us so hard for a week or so?  What effect will Marner have on the team? Will they get a capable back up?
Lots of questions that remain unanswered.  We could wish that Keefe had control of the team since the offseason but we know what wishes get.  If in ten games they are still in the same place then perhaps start to sell off.

It's not tanking. No one is suggesting the Leafs strip the roster or be purposely bad - or even start selling off in the next few weeks. What we're saying is that the team needs to be realistic about where they are as the deadline approaches. If they're still a bubble team at that point, the smart play is to get value for guys that are going to be too expensive to retain or who are not in the future plans.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 04, 2019, 02:06:00 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on December 04, 2019, 02:26:24 PM
LTIR is not retroactive.  If they move Moore to LTIR today, he'd still have to miss the entire minimum LTIR period beginning today. 

Getting some serious deja vu here:

3.  Unfortunately LTIR is not retroactive.  So if they wait 2 weeks, find out JT needs a bit more time, he's gotta sit 10 games or 24 days from the day they put him on LTIR.  Only IR is retroactive.

Believe it is: CBA 50.10.d.vi

A Club may elect to replace a Player who is unfit to play under this Bona-
Fide Long-Term Injury Exception at any point during the period that he is
unfit to play, and any days and games already missed by the Player as a
result of his being unfit to play (i.e., the injury/illness causing him to miss
more than twenty-four (24) calendar days and ten (10) NHL Regular
Season games) prior to the election of the Bona-Fide Long-Term
Injury/Illness Exception shall retroactively count
toward the missed
twenty-four (24) calendar days and ten (10) NHL Regular Season games
for the Player.


Ah.  Work has been killing me- hence I'm barely on here except once or twice a week.  I had missed your previous reply.  Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 04, 2019, 03:34:45 PM
Trevor Moore to LTIR retroactively to accommodate Engvallís cap hit
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 04, 2019, 04:55:26 PM
Personally I don't want to tank at this point. I think Keefe needs about another 10 games to see what his adjustments will be. Will he keep Ceci and Rielly together? Hopefully not.  Why was St.Louis scouting us so hard for a week or so?  What effect will Marner have on the team? Will they get a capable back up?
Lots of questions that remain unanswered.  We could wish that Keefe had control of the team since the offseason but we know what wishes get.  If in ten games they are still in the same place then perhaps start to sell off.

It's not tanking. No one is suggesting the Leafs strip the roster or be purposely bad - or even start selling off in the next few weeks. What we're saying is that the team needs to be realistic about where they are as the deadline approaches. If they're still a bubble team at that point, the smart play is to get value for guys that are going to be too expensive to retain or who are not in the future plans.

I would certainly look at it.  The reality is that we lose at least one of Muzzin/Barrie in the offseason and possibly both.  I don't care how good Sandin becomes, the defense needs more help than that.  If we can turn our good UFA players into good players that will be here 2-3 years from now still, I'm game....of course if the Leafs turn it on in the 2nd half that might be unnecessary.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 04, 2019, 05:10:28 PM
Personally I don't want to tank at this point. I think Keefe needs about another 10 games to see what his adjustments will be. Will he keep Ceci and Rielly together? Hopefully not.  Why was St.Louis scouting us so hard for a week or so?  What effect will Marner have on the team? Will they get a capable back up?
Lots of questions that remain unanswered.  We could wish that Keefe had control of the team since the offseason but we know what wishes get.  If in ten games they are still in the same place then perhaps start to sell off.

It's not tanking. No one is suggesting the Leafs strip the roster or be purposely bad - or even start selling off in the next few weeks. What we're saying is that the team needs to be realistic about where they are as the deadline approaches. If they're still a bubble team at that point, the smart play is to get value for guys that are going to be too expensive to retain or who are not in the future plans.

I would certainly look at it.  The reality is that we lose at least one of Muzzin/Barrie in the offseason and possibly both.  I don't care how good Sandin becomes, the defense needs more help than that.  If we can turn our good UFA players into good players that will be here 2-3 years from now still, I'm game....of course if the Leafs turn it on in the 2nd half that might be unnecessary.
Liljegren will be coming with Sandin next year so we should have 5 pretty solid D men in Rielly, Dermott, Sandin, Holl and Liljegren. Will they be able to handle it? Who knows but this is why they're grooming them on the Marlies. We'd still need a top pairing guy because Rielly isn't it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 04, 2019, 05:31:47 PM

Still sounds like a stop gap for the inevitable
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 04, 2019, 06:31:50 PM
Codi "We-Don't-Have-Any-Better-Options-Dubas-Please-Get-Met-a-Defenseman" Ceci.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 10:33:12 AM

Just keep punting capmageddon down the line
Iím guessing fractured Johnsson.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 10:33:46 AM
This is going to be so fun
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 10:36:09 AM
Damn. Aberg's been crushing it for the Marlies though. 24 points in 22 games. Leads the team in scoring and is 7th in the league. Not sure where he fits in with the 3 big RWs in front of him, but hope he gets a chance.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 10:39:11 AM
Damn. Aberg's been crushing it for the Marlies though. 24 points in 22 games. Leads the team in scoring and is 7th in the league. Not sure where he fits in with the 3 big RWs in front of him, but hope he gets a chance.

He has traditionally played LW from what I recall (Lupul style, but less power).

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Petan-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Engvall-Spezza-Aberg/Timashov

You can swap Hyman and Mikheyev easily enough. Or even Hyman/Petan if Keefe is feeling fun. Either way, with the new coach, the lines don't matter as much and will flex into situational builds as needed.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 10:39:25 AM
Spitballing some lines, I'd put Hyman back up with Matthews to start. If that line doesn't pick up where they left off pretty quickly then give Petan a shot there.

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Petan-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Engvall-Spezza-Aberg
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 10:42:45 AM
Conclusion: WE HAVE THE SAME SPIT
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 06, 2019, 10:55:45 AM
Keefe: "oh yeah that Johnsson injury isn't serious"
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 10:57:38 AM
Keefe: "oh yeah that Johnsson injury isn't serious"

Honestly, is there even such a thing as a minor Johnsson injury?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 11:39:40 AM

Or just do that I guess.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
I was originally going to write that but then was like who would just add more scoring to a line with Matthews/Nylander...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 11:49:31 AM

Gauthier's filling in for Tavares, who took another personal day. Looks like Hyman's back on that 1B line though.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 06, 2019, 12:03:00 PM

Gauthier's filling in for Tavares, who took another personal day. Looks like Hyman's back on that 1B line though.

That minor heart attack when I saw the Goat on line 2
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 06, 2019, 12:31:24 PM
PONTUS MAXIMUS

S P Q R baby!!!!!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 06, 2019, 12:33:00 PM
I'm just going to thrust my gut out there and say that I think Rielly's been hurt all season and Tavares is struggling because of his Inconvenient Baby and the finger thing.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 06, 2019, 01:02:02 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Engvall get a chance on Matthews' left wing during Johnsson's absence. I seams defensively sound, has some muscle to contend with top pairing D, and isn't shy about going to the net. I could see him doing well in that audition.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 06, 2019, 01:12:46 PM
Spitballing some lines, I'd put Hyman back up with Matthews to start. If that line doesn't pick up where they left off pretty quickly then give Petan a shot there. Aberg plays on a top line on the Marlies so you put him on a top line here. Don't put a scorer on the 4th line. I like the move.

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Petan-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Engvall-Spezza-Aberg
I was going to say no no no until I saw the tweet. Hyman can't play with JT so don't put him with Matthews.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 01:15:11 PM
I was going to say no no no until I saw the tweet. Hyman can't play with JT so don't put him with Matthews.

Listen, I get that we have opposing viewpoints on Hyman, but the 10 games or whatever he played in November where his entire line was bad doesn't completely cancel out the 3 seasons of play that came before that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 06, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
I was going to say no no no until I saw the tweet. Hyman can't play with JT so don't put him with Matthews.

Listen, I get that we have opposing viewpoints on Hyman, but the 10 games or whatever he played in November where his entire line was bad doesn't completely cancel out the 3 seasons of play that came before that.
The 3 previous seasons is why I don't want him with Matthews. If you check the GDT's out, I've actually been supportive of Hyman's play and given him the benefit of the doubt because of his injury. Still doesn't change my mind. His hands aren't good enough. I also don't think Johnsson belongs on that line and is one of the reasons it doesn't have consistent production. Anyway I always thought, if you call a top line guy up, put him on a top line here. Put him in a similar role.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 01:34:55 PM
Anyway I always thought, if you call a top line guy up, put him on a top line here. Put him in a similar role.

Hyman frequently played on the Marlies top line in his first season here ;)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 06, 2019, 01:42:15 PM
I'm just going to thrust my gut out there and say that I think Rielly's been hurt all season and Tavares is struggling because of his Inconvenient Baby and the finger thing.

I think that Rielly's escaped a ton of criticism this season. Injury or not, I think he's been right up there with Marner as the biggest disappointments so far (and Marner last game was flying so let's hope we can argue about whether he's "arrived" soon).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 06, 2019, 01:44:50 PM
Anyway I always thought, if you call a top line guy up, put him on a top line here. Put him in a similar role.

Hyman frequently played on the Marlies top line in his first season here ;)
And if it doesn't work, you move him down the line up ;)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 06, 2019, 01:47:31 PM
I'm just going to thrust my gut out there and say that I think Rielly's been hurt all season and Tavares is struggling because of his Inconvenient Baby and the finger thing.

I think that Rielly's escaped a ton of criticism this season. Injury or not, I think he's been right up there with Marner as the biggest disappointments so far (and Marner last game was flying so let's hope we can argue about whether he's "arrived" soon).
He hasn't escaped it from me. Neither has Marner. We better hope both can turn it around. I have more faith in Marner doing it then Rielly tho. He just isn't very good defensively. I actually think he tries to do too much if that makes sense. He gets running around and out of position. I hope Keefe will simplify his game and that will help him.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 06, 2019, 04:48:01 PM
I'm just going to thrust my gut out there and say that I think Rielly's been hurt all season and Tavares is struggling because of his Inconvenient Baby and the finger thing.

I think that Rielly's escaped a ton of criticism this season. Injury or not, I think he's been right up there with Marner as the biggest disappointments so far (and Marner last game was flying so let's hope we can argue about whether he's "arrived" soon).
He hasn't escaped it from me. Neither has Marner. We better hope both can turn it around. I have more faith in Marner doing it then Rielly tho. He just isn't very good defensively. I actually think he tries to do too much if that makes sense. He gets running around and out of position. I hope Keefe will simplify his game and that will help him.

Rielly of course never was a shutdown guy, and I agree that his problems happen when he tries to do too much.  But he's been really off his defensive game this year.  I suspect something more is going on here.

Marner went through a terrible slump what, 2 seasons ago?  Before he got hurt he was in the doldrums like that again.  I hope he breaks out of it.

I still wish he had a better shot though.  He needs one to buy himself more options when he has the puck.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 06, 2019, 05:01:20 PM

Didn't know where to put this but it's a good little profile of Aberg. We often forget that things like having the AHL team in Toronto can make real differences in the actual lives of some of the players beyond any hockey considerations:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/single-parenthood-prepared-pontus-aberg-maple-leafs-recall/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/single-parenthood-prepared-pontus-aberg-maple-leafs-recall/)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 06, 2019, 05:36:40 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Engvall get a chance on Matthews' left wing during Johnsson's absence. I seams defensively sound, has some muscle to contend with top pairing D, and isn't shy about going to the net. I could see him doing well in that audition.
I'd like to see this as well, Engvall is working himself the conversation in a very big way.  I love his quick acceleration off the boards and then swivel move and shot on net  or pass to the open guy.  Great hockey sense and another 7th round steal.  :)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 06, 2019, 05:39:33 PM

Didn't know where to put this but it's a good little profile of Aberg. We often forget that things like having the AHL team in Toronto can make real differences in the actual lives of some of the players beyond any hockey considerations:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/single-parenthood-prepared-pontus-aberg-maple-leafs-recall/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/single-parenthood-prepared-pontus-aberg-maple-leafs-recall/)
Great article and touching, would be nice if Barb Underhill could give the kid a few pointers. LOL
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 06, 2019, 07:46:08 PM
John Tavares missed practice to attend to the passing of his grandmother 4 days ago.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 06, 2019, 11:06:10 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 07, 2019, 01:25:42 AM

In the olden days such fraternization would never have been allowed.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 07, 2019, 10:35:37 AM

In the olden days such fraternization would never have been allowed.

Damn right! Time to make some lists. ;)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 10, 2019, 08:17:15 AM
Tampa got blown out at home again.  The absolute worst case standings after 31 games would now be:

Absolute worst case scenario standings:

BOS - 31 GP - 46 points - 18 RW - 20 ROW - 1 game left
FLA - 31 GP - 39 points - 12 RW - 14 ROW - 4 games left
TBL - 31 GP - 37 points - 14 RW - 16 ROW - 3 games left
BUF - 31 GP - 34 points - 10 RW - 13 ROW - 2 games left
MON - 31 GP - 34 points - 10 RW - 11 ROW - 2 games left
TOR - 31 GP - 32 points - 10 RW - 13 ROW - N/A games left
OTT - 31 GP - 27 points - 11 RW - 13 ROW - 3 games left
DET - 31 GP - 17 points - 6 RW - 7 ROW - 2 games left

Not where the team wants to be but the Atlantic is really a garbage division this year.  Plenty of time to make a move up the standings.  Right now they sit 2 points out of a playoff spot and in a worst case scenario are 5 points out.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 10, 2019, 09:37:11 AM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 10, 2019, 07:01:35 PM

I enjoyed that article thanks
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 11, 2019, 03:34:30 AM
Remember Spainís Tiki-Taka possession/passing/movement style? (See also FC Barcelona (Forsa BarÁa!).  So, what does this have to do with the Leafs?  Something similar specifically under Keefe:

Quote
One of the most crucial components of Tiki Taka is movement off the ball. If you watch the top possession clubs in the world, youíll notice that players without the ball are constantly running into open space. The goal is to create as many ďtrianglesĒ as possible.

Similar to Tiki Taka, the objective is to pass and move.

This is where we start talking about ďtotal hockey,Ē a concept derived from ďtotal football,Ē in which players are constantly interchanging roles and positions. When a forward finds himself in a position to cover for the defenceman, the two can ďswitchĒ positions temporarily, with the D jumping up in the play and taking advantage of the open space. This happens all the time in soccer and itís a key component of maintaining possession; you need your speedy players making runs off the ball to open up space for the next pass.

In other words, motion creates the opportunities to pass & move in order to best take advantage of whatever situation presents itself.  Preparation, awareness, and keen vision are essential.  When you have the skill set which the Leafs possess, it isnít difficult to see why this system suits them well.  Not perfectly, but fittingly well.

[twitter]1204609782155563009[/twitter]
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 11, 2019, 01:10:48 PM
Aberg seems to be another Petan, too good for the AHL and not good enough for the NHL.  He seems like a nice guy and father to his daughter, but he better step it up or he will be playing in the KHL sooner than later. I want my Johnsson back :'(
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 11, 2019, 06:06:59 PM
Aberg seems to be another Petan, too good for the AHL and not good enough for the NHL.  He seems like a nice guy and father to his daughter, but he better step it up or he will be playing in the KHL sooner than later. I want my Johnsson back :'(
He needs to show something soon. He did have a part in Matthews' goal in St Louis. He's def not flashy and isn't standing out positively or negatively. I don't miss Johnsson though. I don't think he's a fit with Matthews/Nylander. Would like to see someone else get a shot if Aberg doesn't work out. Maybe they could try Mikheyev.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 12, 2019, 09:41:43 AM
https://theathletic.com/1415622/2019/12/11/scratched-to-prime-time-justin-holls-rise-with-the-leafs-is-a-study-in-perseverance/
(https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/12/11101641/download.png)

Just need to develop these freebie guys all the time and give them NHL opportunities at the leading edge of their peaks while they're cheap and spin them off for assets. Even if they only last a year or two.

Dubas and Keefe (and Marlies coaching staff) had been clamouring for Holl to get a crack at the lineup for years now.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 12, 2019, 09:59:28 AM
Not trying to twit you or anything, but what's Ceci's chart compared to Zaitsev's?

And I wonder how Zaitsev would fare under Keefe.  You'll recall he could kind of do that playstyle.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 12, 2019, 10:16:06 AM
what's Ceci's chart compared to Zaitsev's?
(https://i.imgur.com/g8MUcv3.png)

All just this season at even strength
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 12, 2019, 10:32:35 AM
what's Ceci's chart compared to Zaitsev's?
(https://i.imgur.com/g8MUcv3.png)

All just this season at even strength


Ceci; less bad
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 12, 2019, 11:18:57 AM
what's Ceci's chart compared to Zaitsev's?
(https://i.imgur.com/g8MUcv3.png)

All just this season at even strength


Ceci; less bad

My understanding is that last year on the Sens, Ceci's charts were astronomically bad.  I'm not sure how much I can learn by comparing a Leaf to a Sen (and who knows the deployment?) using such a chart.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 12, 2019, 11:45:55 AM
what's Ceci's chart compared to Zaitsev's?
(https://i.imgur.com/g8MUcv3.png)

All just this season at even strength


Ceci; less bad

My understanding is that last year on the Sens, Ceci's charts were astronomically bad.  I'm not sure how much I can learn by comparing a Leaf to a Sen (and who knows the deployment?) using such a chart.

That's ok, it works for my narrative
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 12, 2019, 11:52:31 AM
FWIW, this is what their charts looked like last season:

(https://i.imgur.com/b5Kn9xL.png)

So Zaitsev as a sen is doing worse than what Ceci as a sen did, and Ceci as a Leaf is doing better (but obviously still not well) than what Zaitsev did in his last season here.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 12, 2019, 12:01:45 PM
You can read through this to see how the numbers are developed in the regression model via NHL source data and what it really means at a quantitative level, if you so choose.
https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/14/reviving-regularized-adjusted-plus-minus-for-hockey/

For most people, it's just a smoothed-out, normalized, gauge of how a player has performed relative to the average. It's not entirely ever going to 100% isolate a player's individual impact (thanks to hockey being hockey), but it comes pretty darn close and applies the same regularization to all players.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 12:09:23 PM
https://theathletic.com/1415622/2019/12/11/scratched-to-prime-time-justin-holls-rise-with-the-leafs-is-a-study-in-perseverance/
(https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/12/11101641/download.png)

Just need to develop these freebie guys all the time and give them NHL opportunities at the leading edge of their peaks while they're cheap and spin them off for assets. Even if they only last a year or two.

Dubas and Keefe (and Marlies coaching staff) had been clamouring for Holl to get a crack at the lineup for years now.
You know that is because Dubas is such and idiot and spent all that money on just 3 players...what a dunce.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 01:53:58 PM
What to do when Moore gets back, I like his energy and hustle but the last 6 games he played before he went down were not that great.  Probably better than Petan and Timashov.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 12, 2019, 02:23:53 PM
What to do when Moore gets back, I like his energy and hustle but the last 6 games he played before he went down were not that great.  Probably better than Petan and Timashov.
Of the cusp forwards, Engvall is the keeper of the bunch (over Timashov, Aberg, Petan, and the Goat). Not sure if the $$$ work for that, though.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 12, 2019, 02:49:21 PM
What to do when Moore gets back, I like his energy and hustle but the last 6 games he played before he went down were not that great.  Probably better than Petan and Timashov.
Of the cusp forwards, Engvall is the keeper of the bunch (over Timashov, Aberg, Petan, and the Goat). Not sure if the $$$ work for that, though.

Once (if?) we're fully healthy I think one way to keep Engvall is to run a 20-man roster with a likely 4th line of Engvall-Spezza-Moore. This would mean Gauthier and Timashov both get waived and get sent to the Marlies along with Petan/Aberg/Marincin.

It looks like the only way to have a 21-man roster would be to waive Moore (and send down those 3 other bodies) and have a 4th line+spare forward that consists of Engvall/Spezza/Gauthier/Timashov.

It's a tough call. I've been really impressed with what Engvall has done so far, and I think Keefe has too based on how much he's played him and where, but I don't know if having him play limited minutes on the team is worth running a 20-man roster or potentially losing a good depth player like Moore to waivers.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 12, 2019, 02:54:20 PM
Another way is to see Ceci go somewhere nice
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 05:28:37 PM
Another way is to see Ceci go somewhere nice
Like "Robidas Island",  key in the massive charley horse.  Get the cocktail umbrella's out.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 05:39:57 PM
Timashov will have to clear waivers and I don't want that to happen as he will be picked up, too bad Babs gave him a shot too early in his development cycle. Now either he has to stick or be traded.  I am OK with traded as long as Ceci Ryder goes long.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 13, 2019, 02:47:54 PM

Nylander on the left of Matthews/Kapanen, Moore seems potentially ready to return, and Muzzin had a "maintenance" day.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 13, 2019, 03:04:10 PM
Timashov will have to clear waivers and I don't want that to happen as he will be picked up, too bad Babs gave him a shot too early in his development cycle. Now either he has to stick or be traded.  I am OK with traded as long as Ceci Ryder goes long.

Doesn't he have to stick on another team anyway? I.E. if he gets sent down again doesn't he go on the waiver wire again? What team would rather have him on the regular roster vs. someone else?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 13, 2019, 03:10:17 PM
Doesn't he have to stick on another team anyway? I.E. if he gets sent down again doesn't he go on the waiver wire again? What team would rather have him on the regular roster vs. someone else?

He'd have to be on their roster, but not in their line-up. So a team just needs to think he's better than their 13rd or in some cases 14th forward. I don't think it's a slam dunk that he'd get claimed on waivers if he were placed there, but it wouldn't exactly surprise me either.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 13, 2019, 05:02:25 PM

Nylander on the left of Matthews/Kapanen, Moore seems potentially ready to return, and Muzzin had a "maintenance" day.

It would make sense to me to play nylander at center and Matthews on the left.  Nylander kinda plays like a center anyway much of the time.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 13, 2019, 06:09:39 PM

Oh my god Tavares made a joke.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 13, 2019, 07:02:13 PM

Oh my god Tavares made a joke.
Ya and it had a bit of an edge to it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 13, 2019, 08:54:19 PM

Oh my god Tavares made a joke.

How was that a "run-in"?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 15, 2019, 06:43:04 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 16, 2019, 09:12:02 AM

You know people keep saying this must mean Barrie is healthy. But maybe they actually want to potentially bring up Liljegren due to handedness instead anyway?

Edit* Or Marincin?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 16, 2019, 09:17:33 AM
You know people keep saying this must mean Barrie is healthy. But maybe they actually want to potentially bring up Liljegren due to handedness instead anyway?

Edit* Or Marincin?

Yeah I don't think it'd be a bad idea to give Liljegren a shot if Barrie has to miss a game or two. We're basically banking on him being a full-time NHLer next season so giving him a taste of the NHL could be beneficial.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 16, 2019, 10:02:49 AM

Liljegren alert
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 10:06:02 AM
TIMOTH
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 10:08:23 AM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/12/16/21024216/toronto-maple-leafs-call-up-timothy-liljegren-and-martin-marincin-marlies-tyson-barrie-defense

If Liljegren wasn't part of the roster that made the cut out of Training Camp, it would have been impossible to recall him during the season due to performance bonus 'room' under an LTIR situation.

Both call-ups are listed as emergency loans, so that means one other player in addition to Barrie is not practicing today (probably Muzzin?).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 16, 2019, 11:25:04 AM

Liljegren alert

I actually called it for once hahaha
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 16, 2019, 12:25:36 PM

I thought that when he was drafted, Liljegren's prime attribute was his skating.  Am I just misremembering?  Did his draft year injury (was it a knee?) knock his skating way back from what it was?  How is it that he is now a poor "north-south" skater?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 16, 2019, 01:07:59 PM

I thought that when he was drafted, Liljegren's prime attribute was his skating.  Am I just misremembering?  Did his draft year injury (was it a knee?) knock his skating way back from what it was?  How is it that he is now a poor "north-south" skater?

He's not poor, he's mediocre.  :P

It's about time.  Can't wait to see his debut.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 01:37:36 PM
I thought that when he was drafted, Liljegren's prime attribute was his skating.  Am I just misremembering?  Did his draft year injury (was it a knee?) knock his skating way back from what it was?  How is it that he is now a poor "north-south" skater?

Liljegren's draft profiles are all over the internet.
https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/14/nation-network-2017-prospect-profile-6-timothy-liljegren/

His follow up scouting reports show the progress:
MLHS 2018 (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/11/29/timothy-liljegren-evaluating-his-development-18-months-after-his-draft-selection/)
PPP 2019 T25U25
 (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2019/8/21/20802744/top-25-under-25-timothy-liljegren-slides-to-9)
His prime attribute was his dynamic offensive creativity and skating agility (note: not raw north/south speed). His draft drop came as a result of missing significant time (and World Juniors) due to mono in addition to question marks about his defense and the usually extra scrutiny that comes with being top ranked where people just start focusing on flaws.

How he has changed since his draft in 2017 is: his poise with the puck on offense has translated to poise off the puck, making defensive reads to stop plays generally outside the zone. He is pretty firm along the boards as well, which will continue to improve as he builds strength, and there is no defensive panic to his game.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 01:47:22 PM

Dude does not have trouble skating. 75mph wrister too
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 16, 2019, 01:50:08 PM

Looks like a decent "north-south" skater to me.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 02:06:31 PM
Scott's always seemed a bit lower on Timoth than most (and higher on Bracco).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 02:23:41 PM

I don't know what the dealio is with the emergency recall situation.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 16, 2019, 02:33:20 PM

I don't know what the dealio is with the emergency recall situation.

Impending trade? Giving Big Safety & Lilypad some extra muns? So confusing...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 16, 2019, 02:42:22 PM
I've watched Liljegren a few times this year and think he's very good. I also think he's pretty much ready to make the jump. Looks like the Leafs are giving him some love for his good work on the Marlies.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 16, 2019, 05:16:20 PM
I thought that when he was drafted, Liljegren's prime attribute was his skating.  Am I just misremembering?  Did his draft year injury (was it a knee?) knock his skating way back from what it was?  How is it that he is now a poor "north-south" skater?

Liljegren's draft profiles are all over the internet.
https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/14/nation-network-2017-prospect-profile-6-timothy-liljegren/

His follow up scouting reports show the progress:
MLHS 2018 (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/11/29/timothy-liljegren-evaluating-his-development-18-months-after-his-draft-selection/)
PPP 2019 T25U25
 (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2019/8/21/20802744/top-25-under-25-timothy-liljegren-slides-to-9)
His prime attribute was his dynamic offensive creativity and skating agility (note: not raw north/south speed). His draft drop came as a result of missing significant time (and World Juniors) due to mono in addition to question marks about his defense and the usually extra scrutiny that comes with being top ranked where people just start focusing on flaws.

How he has changed since his draft in 2017 is: his poise with the puck on offense has translated to poise off the puck, making defensive reads to stop plays generally outside the zone. He is pretty firm along the boards as well, which will continue to improve as he builds strength, and there is no defensive panic to his game.

thx!

now I remember ó mono not his knee ...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 06:58:09 PM
Draft year knee injury was Rielly
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2019, 07:52:13 PM

Freddie is a good dude. But eyeball emojis for Engvall
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 16, 2019, 09:48:23 PM

Freddie is a good dude. But eyeball emojis for Engvall

Damn look at those pythons on Goat too. Are the puzzles that guy puts together weighted or something?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on December 17, 2019, 09:00:59 AM
Maple Leafs interested in record-breaking KHL goalie Timur Bilyalov (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-interested-record-breaking-khl-goalie-timur-bilyalov/)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 17, 2019, 12:10:16 PM
Maple Leafs interested in record-breaking KHL goalie Timur Bilyalov (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-interested-record-breaking-khl-goalie-timur-bilyalov/)

I was just saying how I wished the Leafs were able to sign European goalies like they have skaters. This won't help us this season though.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2019, 12:12:07 PM
True dat,
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 17, 2019, 12:17:16 PM
Naz just cost the Avs the game yesterday with a hugely undisciplined 4 minute high sticking call. #guyweneed
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 17, 2019, 12:22:15 PM
Maple Leafs interested in record-breaking KHL goalie Timur Bilyalov (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-interested-record-breaking-khl-goalie-timur-bilyalov/)

He's a small goalie by NHL standards, so he'll really have to rely more heavily on athleticism and reflexes. That concerns me some in terms of his long-term potential, but he's definitely worth a look.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 17, 2019, 12:43:33 PM
Naz just cost the Avs the game yesterday with a hugely undisciplined 4 minute high sticking call. #guyweneed
I loved Naz but he is a true bonehead.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 17, 2019, 01:07:10 PM
Naz just cost the Avs the game yesterday with a hugely undisciplined 4 minute high sticking call. #guyweneed
I loved Naz but he is a true bonehead.
And that's why he was traded. Million dollar talent, $.10 brain.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 17, 2019, 02:05:37 PM
Blundell says Vatanen and Simmonds are coming to the Leafs.  Discuss.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 17, 2019, 02:09:12 PM
Blundell says

lol
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 17, 2019, 02:11:03 PM
Blundell says

lol

You're doubting the former host of 102.1 The Edge, the Fan590 morning show, and close personal friend of Justin Pogge?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 17, 2019, 03:01:49 PM
I've wanted Vatanen for a while, but that makes zero sense now that the team has Barrie, who is better and costing the Leafs less.

Unless it's Vatanen for Ceci, then I'll take it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 17, 2019, 03:04:26 PM
Blundell doesnít understand how the cap works
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 17, 2019, 03:07:39 PM
I've wanted Vatanen for a while, but that makes zero sense now that the team has Barrie, who is better and costing the Leafs less.

Unless it's Vatanen for Ceci, then I'll take it.


Eklund has Vatanen to Leafs (E4) that's nearly a done deal!!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 17, 2019, 04:56:46 PM
I've wanted Vatanen for a while, but that makes zero sense now that the team has Barrie, who is better and costing the Leafs less.

Unless it's Vatanen for Ceci, then I'll take it.


Eklund has Vatanen to Leafs (E4) that's nearly a done deal!!

I don't want either of those players.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 17, 2019, 06:10:05 PM
I don't want either of those players.

Vatanenís a little hard to get a good read on, as heís played on pretty poor teams the last couple years. Heís probably an upgrade on Ceci, and, as a pending UFA with a similar cap hit, thatís a swap I think could benefit the Leafs. Simmonds, in the other hand, just looks like heís flat out done as a productive NHL player. If he was making close to the league minimum, he could be a useful 4th lone/depth option, but with a $5M cap got? Hardest of hard passes.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 18, 2019, 12:05:51 PM

Goalie on waivers alert. Comrie's (very limited/spread out) NHL numbers aren't great. But he's a young guy with promise. We'll see how desperate Dubas is here.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 18, 2019, 12:11:41 PM

Goalie on waivers alert. Comrie's (very limited/spread out) NHL numbers aren't great. But he's a young guy with promise. We'll see how desperate Dubas is here.

Comrie's numbers are really really bad. Even his AHL numbers aren't inspiring.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 18, 2019, 02:02:20 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 18, 2019, 02:03:27 PM

Hope Brooks and Liljegren enjoy their Christmas bonuses.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 19, 2019, 09:37:23 AM

Dubas is going to get Marincin on Legends Row.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2019, 09:50:38 AM
In before the roster freeze, and non-emergency insofar as I can tell

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/12/17/21026944/maple-leafs-add-adam-brooks-to-the-roster-on-an-emergency-recall-trevor-moore

Quote
There is a totally ordinary method used to convert emergency recalls to regular recalls that could have been employed for these two players. There has been no explanation why that wasnít used unless there was a desire to have these two players at practices with the Marlies and the Leafs.

No cap savings or any other advantaged is gained by these moves.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2019, 10:09:43 AM

Even new guy is getting in some jabs
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 19, 2019, 10:37:55 AM

Even new guy is getting in some jabs


Lol
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 19, 2019, 10:40:03 AM
I mean I'm pretty sure that exact same comment has been getting said about our management and coaching group ever since Shanahan came aboard.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 19, 2019, 10:44:26 AM
I mean I'm pretty sure that exact same comment has been getting said about our management and coaching group ever since Shanahan came aboard.

It might have been said but was it really put into practice?  Was Lou really a GM to share responsibilities and was Babcock the coach to do the same?  Evidence suggests otherwise.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 19, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
I mean I'm pretty sure that exact same comment has been getting said about our management and coaching group ever since Shanahan came aboard.

It might have been said but was it really put into practice?  Was Lou really a GM to share responsibilities and was Babcock the coach to do the same?  Evidence suggests otherwise.

But that's the point. Regardless of what a coach or manager is actually like when they're a new hire everyone is going to be super positive about them.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 19, 2019, 10:53:18 AM
Doesn't sound that different??

 https://www.nhl.com/news/one-on-one-with-sheldon-keefe/c-874872
 
 Sent with @NHL
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 19, 2019, 11:05:14 AM

Even new guy is getting in some jabs

I think you're reaching there. Not everything said in support of Keefe is a jab at Babcock.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 19, 2019, 12:08:55 PM
Goalie on waivers alert. Comrie's (very limited/spread out) NHL numbers aren't great. But he's a young guy with promise. We'll see how desperate Dubas is here.

Winnipeg claimed Comrie (he was originally a Jet, they lost him at the start of the season to Arizona on waivers). They're ahead of the Leafs in the standings so that means Toronto didn't put in a claim.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 19, 2019, 12:22:11 PM
Goalie on waivers alert. Comrie's (very limited/spread out) NHL numbers aren't great. But he's a young guy with promise. We'll see how desperate Dubas is here.

Winnipeg claimed Comrie (he was originally a Jet, they lost him at the start of the season to Arizona on waivers). They're ahead of the Leafs in the standings so that means Toronto didn't put in a claim.

Doesn't a team who loses a player on waivers have first claiming rights if they go back on waivers?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 19, 2019, 12:29:06 PM
Goalie on waivers alert. Comrie's (very limited/spread out) NHL numbers aren't great. But he's a young guy with promise. We'll see how desperate Dubas is here.

Winnipeg claimed Comrie (he was originally a Jet, they lost him at the start of the season to Arizona on waivers). They're ahead of the Leafs in the standings so that means Toronto didn't put in a claim.

Doesn't a team who loses a player on waivers have first claiming rights if they go back on waivers?
I think there is a timeframe where they get first dibs. Not sure of the length of it though.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 19, 2019, 12:33:28 PM
Doesn't a team who loses a player on waivers have first claiming rights if they go back on waivers?

The rule is if Winnipeg was the only team to claim him now, after losing him on waivers earlier this season, they would have the right to immediately send him to their AHL team without having to place him on waivers again and have him clear.

There also seems to be some debate as to whether that still applies here since he was traded in between, but that's probably not important.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2019, 10:31:52 PM
Getting some nice bounces on the schedule tonight.
Sabres 6-1 loss
Lightning 4-3 OT loss
Bruins 3-2 SO loss
Canadiens currently losing

The OTL points suck but still better than 2s

Edit: spoke too soon as Montreal finishes the comeback in OT
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 20, 2019, 12:03:22 PM
https://theathletic.com/1452117/2019/12/20/painting-a-picture-of-what-your-life-is-going-to-be-the-inspiration-behind-the-leafs-tattoos/

Okay this is fluff, but a window into the players.

Quote
That tattoo has led to others, including the one he had done in the summer of 2017: the Greek god Zeus, on his inner right forearm.

ďI was reading up on Greek mythology for a few summers,Ē said Marner of the Zeus tattoo. ďI like the story of Zeus and how he was a guy that everyone looked up to and everyone went to for answers. I liked all the things I read about.Ē

What stuck out to Marner was how Zeus was a ďleader.Ē That finalized the decision for him.

ďYou want to be someone that everyone goes to for answers and respects and wants to lead the way,Ē said Marner. ďYou want the younger generation to look up to you and see that thereís more than playing hockey. Itís about what you do off the ice and how you treat others. Thatís something that I really value.Ē

I think he might have skipped some parts in his 'reading'.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 20, 2019, 12:20:37 PM
The best part about Marner's Zeus tattoo is that it's actually Poseidon/Neptune:

https://collections.lacma.org/node/241134

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/6d/0c/a26d0c90eb5eb4a4aab74ba6ee974daa.png)(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/neptune-denise-mazzocco.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 20, 2019, 12:57:11 PM
This is amazing.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 20, 2019, 01:00:02 PM
This is amazing.

I'd pay $100 to have Mirtle or someone film his reaction to finding this out.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 20, 2019, 01:53:33 PM
This is amazing.

I'd pay $100 to have Mirtle or someone film his reaction to finding this out.
Relax Zeus and Neptune are actually twin brothers. LOL
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 20, 2019, 02:19:44 PM
Really, it's no problem.  One lives in the sky, one in the sea.  You look up to one, you look down to the other.  One leads from the front, the other from the rear.  Potayto, potahto.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 20, 2019, 04:30:24 PM
But is he the hardest working god? Rank 'em Mitch.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 20, 2019, 06:28:14 PM
Actually Zeus is the laziest of Gods, ordering all the other ones about to do this and do that, and throws thunderbolt's at those maleficent in their efforts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 23, 2019, 10:48:10 AM
Boston has 1 win in their last 9 games (4 OT/SO losses in there). There's still a 9-point gap between them and the Leafs right now. But the unbeatable Bruins are starting to look beatable.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 23, 2019, 10:49:27 AM
Boston has 1 win in their last 9 games (4 OT/SO losses in there). There's still a 9-point gap between them and the Leafs right now. But the unbeatable Bruins are starting to look beatable.

Good to know for the 2nd (3rd?) round :D
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 23, 2019, 11:17:00 AM
Boston has 1 win in their last 9 games (4 OT/SO losses in there). There's still a 9-point gap between them and the Leafs right now. But the unbeatable Bruins are starting to look beatable.
fire the coach, I heard Babcock is available. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 24, 2019, 06:54:44 AM
Things I really like that are happening now:

1. Fresh bodies
Players are being cycled in and out of the lineup. Itís hampered somewhat by our cap situation but thereís always one or two players coming in in make-the-cut mode and they know they have a chance to stick on merit due to...

2. Play time
Is getting allocated on a game-by-game basis to whoeverís got it going. No one player can ever really maintain an 82-game run of 100% performance/effort/result. If youíve got it going that night, coachís gonna play you and this pushes the parity see-saw on any given shift into the Leafsí favour.

3. Chemistry Experiments
The Leafs have long been set up on plug and play wingers, and now theyíre actually being used that way to flex the lineup situationally beyond the usual post-special teams set ups. Is there an opportunity to take an OZ draw against a very tired fourth line? Please enjoy some TOI with 33M worth of firepower. You can bet the staff and R&D team are building up a nice little library of options to mix into future matchups as required.

4. Skillz
Those skill sessions before opportune practices are starting to manifest with regularity. It is most evident in someone like Zach Hyman. He shook off some forechecks while handling the puck that I did not know was in his repertoire resulting in fantastic feeds to Matthews and co. Adding that element to his engine and the chaos gravity he brings to the net front every time, and we will see his linemates flourish in the space he creates for them.

5. Keep the Puck
This is the process: tip the balance of the game at every opportunity. Having the puck is an advantage. Now there are times when having the puck in a certain situation is highly dangerous and itís be better to move it along quicker. The Leafs are going to get the hang of that in the coming months ó most of our players are very hockey smart. Flipping the switch from finesse to fast and back again will make playing us far less predictable.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 24, 2019, 10:34:47 AM
(https://i.frg.im/p6pfqwc/183319045779-0_600.jpg?v=1540376490.48)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 24, 2019, 01:43:56 PM
Things I really like that are happening now:

1. Fresh bodies
Players are being cycled in and out of the lineup. Itís hampered somewhat by our cap situation but thereís always one or two players coming in in make-the-cut mode and they know they have a chance to stick on merit due to...

Based on what I've seen from Engvall and Soup, it's really apparent to me that they should be looking to deal one of Kapenen, Kerfoot or Johnsson in-season to fill more pressing needs.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 24, 2019, 02:29:43 PM

So as of the Christmas break, here's the /82 projections for their three young stars:

Matthews: 52 g, 41a, 93 points

Marner: 30 g, 76 a, 106 points

Nylander: 30g, 30 a, 60 points

They aren't hollow stats either. All three guys have very good possession numbers. Matthews and Nylander are both over 50% on faceoffs. None of them are minuses.

Can all of them improve? Sure. Can they become more well-rounded players? I suppose. But the simple and plain truth is that none of them are underproducing relative to their salaries and all of them are showing important signs of growth.

The stick these guys have been taking all year from some corners has been ridiculous and has way more to do with a heavy dose of confirmation bias dedicated to overstating their deficiencies and, let's be real, effectively blaming them for the fact that the Leafs management didn't surround them with the same sort of team that the Blackhawks did their young stars.

But they're all very good, good value and a lot of fun to watch. Anyone wanting to trade one of them is, quite frankly, nuts.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 24, 2019, 02:52:02 PM
But they're all very good, good value and a lot of fun to watch. Anyone wanting to trade one of them is, quite frankly, nuts.

Nah, I don't agree. I don't believe Nylander is in the same category as Tavares, Marner, and Matthews. They need to allocate more resources to the defense, particularly next season. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 24, 2019, 02:55:03 PM
I don't believe Nylander is in the same category as Tavares, Marner, and Matthews.

I agree. Nylander is in a category with Marner and Matthews in "providing good value for his salary" and Tavares is in a different category.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 24, 2019, 03:17:26 PM
But they're all very good, good value and a lot of fun to watch. Anyone wanting to trade one of them is, quite frankly, nuts.
Nah, I don't agree. I don't believe Nylander is in the same category as Tavares, Marner, and Matthews. They need to allocate more resources to the defense, particularly next season. 
I agree. Nylander is in a category with Marner and Matthews in "providing good value for his salary" and Tavares is in a different category.

You're conflating "providing good value" with claiming same players are so valuable that they're untradeable by rational people. That's quite the leap. I don't agree.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 24, 2019, 03:33:51 PM
You're conflating "providing good value" with claiming same players are so valuable that they're untradeable by rational people. That's quite the leap. I don't agree.

Well, no. Typically I tend to write as though we all sort of agree on some elementary principles like "Anyone is tradeable if you get  the right return" and so I think it's largely unnecessary to put in asides to reaffirm that notion. If the Oilers call tomorrow and want to trade McDavid for Marner that would probably be a trade to make.

What I said is that nobody should want to trade them. Tied into that is, I think, the reality that dealing good young forwards for the kind of defenseman that would be a good value return is effectively impossible(or, at least, doesn't happen outside of extremely rare circumstances) and that the UFA market tends to be a lousy area for improving your team in a cost effective way(See, again, Tavares who is probably a best case scenario).

So looking to trade any of these guys on the condition of making a massive overall improvement to the team might be where that instinct is coming from but if you're predicating your desires to trade them something that's pretty unlikely to happen you may as well hope that Sandin-Liljegren each play like all-stars next year rendering a trade unnecessary anyway. If you're going to fantasize about winning the lottery it may as well be the jackpot.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 24, 2019, 08:36:42 PM
Thereís always been a corner of the fan base that wants to trade the actually good players we have.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 24, 2019, 10:46:06 PM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 24, 2019, 11:15:18 PM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.

How about the Seth Jones Trade? Brent Burns? Hamilton? They aren't common but they do happen. It's quite possible someone desperate offers one for any of our forwards not named Tavares, Matthews,  or Marner. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 25, 2019, 05:17:43 AM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.

Exactly. That's the thing people miss and why the Hall situation was so illustrative. Edmonton wasn't looking for a very good defensive prospect to help them win down the line, making Hall available was their attempt to yield the best possible defenseman to help them win now.

That's why the examples people use to try and make the counterargument are examples of rewriting history. Brent Burns was so highly regarded as a defenseman when Minnesota traded him that San Jose used him as a forward for a season and a half before moving him back to defense. Someone like Dougie Hamilton was still getting less than 20 minutes, only available because of a frankly baffling decision by Boston not to pay him a fair contract and still didn't get traded for forwards but picks.

Seth Jones gets brought up a lot and it's almost a fit but at this point Seth Jones is basically becoming the modern day version of "You think we can't trade for a #1 C without giving up a ton, what about Joe Thornton?!?!?". Even if Seth Jones were really an exception, he'd be the exception that proved the rule. But he's not, let's go over some facts about that trade:

1. The fact that Jones was even on Nashville to begin with was a series of weird events. Nashville, a perennial 100 point team, lost Ryan Suter to free agency and then had a weird down year in a strike shortened season to land the #4 pick. Despite being strongest on defense and desperate for scoring, Nashville still drafted Jones because he was incredibly highly regarded and thought to be a likely #1 or #2 pick but fell to #4.

2. Nashville's defense situation went from good to ridiculous as Josi emerged as a Norris candidate and Ekholm and Ellis quickly established themselves as very good players, leaving Jones as the team's #5 defenseman. So he wasn't a top defenseman when he got dealt, but a very very good defensive prospect whose path was blocked.

3. Despite all that, landing Jones still required Columbus to give up the only thing in hockey that might be more valuable than an elite defensive prospect and that's a young goalscoring #1 C with size. The Leafs do have one of those but it's not William Nylander and I wouldn't trade Matthews for an already established Seth Jones.

So, again, it's not that good defensmen aren't ever dealt it's that dangling a good young forward doesn't create that market out of thin air. If a series of weird events caused Philadelphia to want to move Provorov or made Werenski expendable or something like that then, sure, you listen to the call but simply wanting to trade someone like Nylander doesn't make that happen and effectively never has.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 25, 2019, 08:26:41 AM
Defensive zone tactics:  implementing ďzone structuresĒ...

Jason Spezza explains it best:

Quote
The success when you donít have it is tracking through the middle of the ice and protecting the middle, and then flexing out after that, and not giving up anything through the middle of the ice. At times, we will probably play in our end a little bit, but you try to keep them to the outside. Weíve seen talk of the Islanders and how theyíre playing ó sometimes you have to kind of be comfortable playing in your d-zone and letting teams be on the outside, and just not letting them come on the inside. There is a lot of emphasis on puck support and playing with the puck, but once you turn the puck over, the emphasis is to get through the middle as quick as possible, retreat, and flex out from there.Ē

https://theathletic.com/1470632/2019/12/19/how-sheldon-keefes-parking-the-bus-defence-is-getting-the-maple-leafs-cycled-into-oblivion/

Also here:
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/11/23/jason-spezza-sheldon-keefe-systems/
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 10:42:20 AM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.

Exactly. That's the thing people miss and why the Hall situation was so illustrative. Edmonton wasn't looking for a very good defensive prospect to help them win down the line, making Hall available was their attempt to yield the best possible defenseman to help them win now.

That's why the examples people use to try and make the counterargument are examples of rewriting history. Brent Burns was so highly regarded as a defenseman when Minnesota traded him that San Jose used him as a forward for a season and a half before moving him back to defense. Someone like Dougie Hamilton was still getting less than 20 minutes, only available because of a frankly baffling decision by Boston not to pay him a fair contract and still didn't get traded for forwards but picks.

Seth Jones gets brought up a lot and it's almost a fit but at this point Seth Jones is basically becoming the modern day version of "You think we can't trade for a #1 C without giving up a ton, what about Joe Thornton?!?!?". Even if Seth Jones were really an exception, he'd be the exception that proved the rule. But he's not, let's go over some facts about that trade:

1. The fact that Jones was even on Nashville to begin with was a series of weird events. Nashville, a perennial 100 point team, lost Ryan Suter to free agency and then had a weird down year in a strike shortened season to land the #4 pick. Despite being strongest on defense and desperate for scoring, Nashville still drafted Jones because he was incredibly highly regarded and thought to be a likely #1 or #2 pick but fell to #4.

2. Nashville's defense situation went from good to ridiculous as Josi emerged as a Norris candidate and Ekholm and Ellis quickly established themselves as very good players, leaving Jones as the team's #5 defenseman. So he wasn't a top defenseman when he got dealt, but a very very good defensive prospect whose path was blocked.

3. Despite all that, landing Jones still required Columbus to give up the only thing in hockey that might be more valuable than an elite defensive prospect and that's a young goalscoring #1 C with size. The Leafs do have one of those but it's not William Nylander and I wouldn't trade Matthews for an already established Seth Jones.

So, again, it's not that good defensmen aren't ever dealt it's that dangling a good young forward doesn't create that market out of thin air. If a series of weird events caused Philadelphia to want to move Provorov or made Werenski expendable or something like that then, sure, you listen to the call but simply wanting to trade someone like Nylander doesn't make that happen and effectively never has.

It's odd that you dismiss 3 cases where it has happened and worked out good for the team getting the D but then cling to the Hall example as the rule?? That hasn't exactly happened a lot either. Just because a bad GM made the Hall trade does not mean there can't be a deal for the Leaf's. Heck even that one didn't look that bad after year one.  I know It's rare but when one team has a surplus of quality forwards and another has a surplus of quality D I see no reason a deal to help both could not be reached. I do agree that just dangling the forward and taking the best offer makes no sense for the quality of Nylander, if the offer isnt good enough you keep the player.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on December 25, 2019, 01:27:53 PM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.

How about the Seth Jones Trade? Brent Burns? Hamilton? They aren't common but they do happen. It's quite possible someone desperate offers one for any of our forwards not named Tavares, Matthews,  or Marner.
Have you seen Brent Burns' stat line lately? It does happen but I'd say it's the exception than the rule. If the Leafs end up getting a guy like Seth Jones then cool, I'm just not sure a guy like that is available.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 02:38:08 PM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.

How about the Seth Jones Trade? Brent Burns? Hamilton? They aren't common but they do happen. It's quite possible someone desperate offers one for any of our forwards not named Tavares, Matthews,  or Marner.
Have you seen Brent Burns' stat line lately? It does happen but I'd say it's the exception than the rule. If the Leafs end up getting a guy like Seth Jones then cool, I'm just not sure a guy like that is available.

I would trade Nylander today for a guy who would have Burn's career. I would not trade him for present day Burns. You, nor I, have no idea who is available.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 25, 2019, 03:23:20 PM
I would trade Nylander today for a guy who would have Burn's career. I would not trade him for present day Burns. You, nor I, have no idea who is available.

No, but we can look at the guys who are good value for Nylander, and make a pretty educated guess as to whether that move makes sense for both teams involved - and there arenít many that do.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 25, 2019, 03:34:43 PM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.

How about the Seth Jones Trade? Brent Burns? Hamilton? They aren't common but they do happen. It's quite possible someone desperate offers one for any of our forwards not named Tavares, Matthews,  or Marner.
Have you seen Brent Burns' stat line lately? It does happen but I'd say it's the exception than the rule. If the Leafs end up getting a guy like Seth Jones then cool, I'm just not sure a guy like that is available.

I would trade Nylander today for a guy who would have Burn's career. I would not trade him for present day Burns. You, nor I, have no idea who is available.
Burns is 34, has 5 years left after this at 8 Mill per so it's a pretty easy call there. I think Subban would be available but his numbers are brutal this year. He's struggling bigtime on the Devils. Don't think it would take Willy, money aside, to get him. Not saying I'd want him either at his cap hit for 2 more years.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 04:13:24 PM
I would trade Nylander today for a guy who would have Burn's career. I would not trade him for present day Burns. You, nor I, have no idea who is available.

No, but we can look at the guys who are good value for Nylander, and make a pretty educated guess as to whether that move makes sense for both teams involved - and there arenít many that do.

As rumoured for a long time I could see a beneficial deal for both teams between Carolina and Toronto, but it might be less value than Nylander. But in reality I doubt a deal for Nylander will be proposed.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 25, 2019, 04:26:14 PM
It's odd that you dismiss 3 cases where it has happened...

I appreciate that this stuff tends to elude you but what I did was contest that those are three cases where "it" happened. None of the three were top defensemen when they were traded and in at least one case, Hamilton, he emphatically was not traded for a forward. Burns, likewise, was mainly dealt for a pick and a prospect with a 3rd line forward thrown into the deal. The Jones thing is the only trade that structurally resembles what was being suggested and I go into some detail as to why it's a bad comparable.

Again, if we're going to game plan around unlikely things happening we may as well game plan around massive internal growth for the team's defensive prospects.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 04:43:02 PM
It's odd that you dismiss 3 cases where it has happened...

I appreciate that this stuff tends to elude you but what I did was contest that those are three cases where "it" happened. None of the three were top defensemen when they were traded and in at least one case, Hamilton, he emphatically was not traded for a forward. Burns, likewise, was mainly dealt for a pick and a prospect with a 3rd line forward thrown into the deal. The Jones thing is the only trade that structurally resembles what was being suggested and I go into some detail as to why it's a bad comparable.

Again, if we're going to game plan around unlikely things happening we may as well game plan around massive internal growth for the team's defensive prospects.

The key part of Hamilton trade was a 1st round pick used to pick a forward. Obviously not  a Nylander but a Top young D was traded, thats kinda the point. Seth Jones was on his way to being a great D, so to dismiss that is well very Nicky. I wouldn't really expect a Top end stud D in return when we aren't really giving that kind of forward up. Nylander is a secondary winger, i would expect the return to reflect that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 25, 2019, 04:59:23 PM
As rumoured for a long time I could see a beneficial deal for both teams between Carolina and Toronto, but it might be less value than Nylander. But in reality I doubt a deal for Nylander will be proposed.

If Carolina is willing to move Slavin, sure. I wouldnít trade Nylander for any of their other defencemen.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 05:05:01 PM
As rumoured for a long time I could see a beneficial deal for both teams between Carolina and Toronto, but it might be less value than Nylander. But in reality I doubt a deal for Nylander will be proposed.

If Carolina is willing to move Slavin, sure. I wouldnít trade Nylander for any of their other defencemen.

What about Nylander plus for Hamilton plus? I don't see them moving either at this point. But who knows, they might not want to pay his next contract ?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 25, 2019, 05:37:33 PM
What about Nylander plus for Hamilton plus? I don't see them moving either at this point. But who knows, they might not want to pay his next contract ?

Not under contract long enough to guarantee value. Not moving 4.5 years of Nylander for only 1.5 locked in for Hamilton.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 25, 2019, 06:13:41 PM
Obviously not  a Nylander but a Top young D was traded, thats kinda the point.

No. The point was emphatically "what sort of defenseman could the team get for Nylander". No one put forth the claim that no team has ever traded a young defenseman with potential to eventually become a top pairing guy so a bunch of examples where a defenseman with potential was traded for a bunch of stuff that in no way resembles what Nylander is has very little to do with the question being raised.

Seth Jones was, indeed, a very good defensive prospect when he was traded for. I in no way dismissed that. What I said it's not particularly relevant because the situation Nashville was in is incredibly unlikely to be repeated and, even if it was, Johansen was a much more valuable trade piece than Nylander is.

Again, though, we're back to the fundamental reality that a trade of Nylander(remember that. We're talking about trading Nylander. Nylander. William Nylander. Not Picks. William Nylander. Understand?) for a defenseman would be unlikely to yield good value in return.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 06:15:28 PM
What about Nylander plus for Hamilton plus? I don't see them moving either at this point. But who knows, they might not want to pay his next contract ?

Not under contract long enough to guarantee value. Not moving 4.5 years of Nylander for only 1.5 locked in for Hamilton.

I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 25, 2019, 06:17:23 PM
I'm always confused at that.  There isn't a poster on the site would would argue that the Leafs shouldn't trade Nylander if the right deal came around to get a top tier defenseman.  The reality is that forwards never yield you top defensemen.  The Oilers traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.   That's what you get when you trade forwards for defensemen.  The Leafs aren't going to get value for Nylander in that deal and their team isn't better with Adam Larsson on the blueline and Nylander out of the lineup.

Here is the post I quoted Nik, feel free to point out what you added later in here??? Forwards never yield you top defensemen is the key part I answered.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 25, 2019, 06:37:27 PM
Here is the post I quoted Nik, feel free to point out what you added later in here??? Forwards never yield you top defensemen is the key part I answered.

I would think the context of citing the Hall trade would make it pretty obvious that by "Forwards" he didn't mean "Draft picks that eventually became forwards" and that the context of humans using language meant "Top Defensemen" didn't mean "Defensemen who the team decided to use at forward for a couple seasons before eventually establishing themselves as a top defensemen".

Which brings us back to Jones which, again, I think I've explained pretty thoroughly why it's a bad comparison(any of which you're free to actually challenge rather than engaging in your usual bout of mindless contradiction) but, even if it isn't, still shouldn't be used by anyone as a realistic guide to improving the team's defense. Like I said, it's like using the Joe Thornton trade as a game plan for adding a #1 centre in their prime.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 25, 2019, 06:37:58 PM
I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

Then it really depends on what that contract looks like.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 25, 2019, 06:44:53 PM
I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

Then it really depends on what that contract looks like.

Would it though? I like Dougie Hamilton a lot and obviously he's currently having a heck of a first half of the year but even if you get past the question of whether or not Carolina would even entertain the idea you're then left with the question of if the Leafs only have the one bullet to pull off a big time trade to address the problems with the team defensively if Dougie Hamilton is the guy who meaningfully improves the team's play without the puck.

He's a terrific offensive defenseman and a valuable piece overall but I really don't think the problem with this team that needs to be addressed is a lack of good quality offensive defensmen.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 25, 2019, 08:56:39 PM
I was thinking more of after season with new conteact agreed upon rather than right now scenario.

Then it really depends on what that contract looks like.

Would it though? I like Dougie Hamilton a lot and obviously he's currently having a heck of a first half of the year but even if you get past the question of whether or not Carolina would even entertain the idea you're then left with the question of if the Leafs only have the one bullet to pull off a big time trade to address the problems with the team defensively if Dougie Hamilton is the guy who meaningfully improves the team's play without the puck.

He's a terrific offensive defenseman and a valuable piece overall but I really don't think the problem with this team that needs to be addressed is a lack of good quality offensive defensmen.

You want Shea Weber 8-10 years ago.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 25, 2019, 09:52:18 PM
Trade Nylander and we're left with a single top-6 winger on the team. That's a problem. He just isn't as expendable as some people think he is. I get the defence can use improving, but not at that cost*.

*obligatory comment that specifies if the defenceman is a Provorov/Werenski type then sure let's talk but those guys aren't available so let's stop pretending this is what we're talking about when people say 'Trade Nylander!'
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 26, 2019, 12:23:22 AM
Trade Nylander and we're left with a single top-6 winger on the team. That's a problem. He just isn't as expendable as some people think he is. I get the defence can use improving, but not at that cost*.

*obligatory comment that specifies if the defenceman is a Provorov/Werenski type then sure let's talk but those guys aren't available so let's stop pretending this is what we're talking about when people say 'Trade Nylander!'


Precisely why trading Nylander is impractical at this point in time.

I am not a fan of trading either of Nylander nor Marner unless the return is something stupendous.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 26, 2019, 05:58:48 AM
Yíall know thereís a dedicated thread (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5433.0) for trading Nylander, right?

Hereís a fun video of some of Willyís work as a 12 year old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmkfpNXvCsU

Heís playing against 13-14 year olds here.

Hereís a fun video of some of Willyís work as a 19-22 year old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfdbqjv2LBw

You might hate the half a dozen times a month he releases on a backcheck off a turnover, but you canít deny how often he is bringing the puck from nothing into super dangerous slot chances for himself and his teammates through his skating, puck handling, puck recovery effort, and shooting every game (even on off nights) unless youíre actively ignoring it.

The only players on this team currently better than Willy at:
Speed Skating: Kapanen
Edge work: uh... maybe Dermott?
Shot: Matthews, Tavares
Passing: slight edge to Marner
Neutral Zone transition: no one
Puck thievery: Matthews, maybe Marner
Forechecking puck retrieval: Hyman
Puck handling in extra coverage: Matthews, Tavares
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 26, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
You want Shea Weber 8-10 years ago.

I would grudgingly settle for turn of the century Chris Pronger.

Also, while I have doubts that Hamilton would solve any of the Leafs problems it's kind of inarguable that trading Hamilton would create a problem for Carolina. Not only would it leave them with just Pesce and Van Riemsdyk on the Right Side but they don't have another top tier offensive defenseman. Hamilton has almost twice as many points as their #2 scoring defenseman and more than three times as many as their #3.

On the flip of that, Carolina does have quite a few good young forwards with Aho and Martin Necas down the middle and Teravainen and Svechnikov on the wing. I don't think they're as good as the Leafs' group but they're pretty far from being the sort of "desperate" team that some of these designs are predicated on.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 26, 2019, 09:51:08 AM
You might hate the half a dozen times a month he releases on a backcheck off a turnover, but you canít deny how often he is bringing the puck from nothing into super dangerous slot chances for himself and his teammates through his skating, puck handling, puck recovery effort, and shooting every game (even on off nights) unless youíre actively ignoring it.

For the record I'm a huge fan of what Willy can bring when he chooses to bring it and I think we'd regret trading him unless it was one of those unicorn type deals like the Jones-Johansen and I don't see any obvious candidates for that.

I strongly suspect any significant upgrade on our D will have to come from drafting/developing our own so the hope would be that guys like Holl and Dermott keep improving, that Sandin and Liljgren are able to step in later this season (post deadline) or at next camp and earn a job, and maybe we can get lucky on a few diamonds in the rough or poached from overseas.

I really don't see a whole lot of room to improve our roster this year. The only hope might be something where we trade one of our decent excess wingers (not Willy or Marner but anyone else would be up for discussion) plus Ceci in exchange for a 3/4 "Muz-light" kind of player who plays with a bit more jam and isn't quite such a defensive liability. No clue at all who that might be.

The other idea that's been lurking around in the back of my mind is to trade Ceci to someone for essentially nothing (maybe we add in a 7th round pick or whatever and get back a 6th?) and use that newly opened roster spot to bring Sandin or Liljgren up...but that assumes that they'd be able to handle the much higher difficulty level of the tail end of the season and possible playoffs.


I would grudgingly settle for turn of the century Chris Pronger.

Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Like you, I don't see the Canes as a fit. Not sure any team is...or at least one presumes that if there were a good fit, Dubas would likely have acted on it already. He took his stab at a reclamation project (Ceci) and it's still possible that could come to fruition in a sheltered bottom pairing with Dermott.

Barrie has looked a lot better under Keefe, and if Muz-Holl can keep improving as they have and can be relied upon to be the shut down pairing, the Rielly-Barrie second pair might be a net positive, so even just going with the status quo might not be the end of the world. The way we're playing right now, we have a shot of getting into the playoffs as a non-wildcard team and I don't mind our chances against any of the other likely Atlantic opponents in the first round (assuming Boston will finish #1, the scariest remaining team would be the Bolts and our roster is a bit better suited to handle them than the Bruins, though that won't be a cake walk either...Sabres, Habs, Panthers are all beatable).

So maybe this is the year to do nothing else at all and just go with what we have. I don't see this as a cup team, but we can probably make the playoffs and win a round, then hopefully find a better fit for the back end with some promotions from the Marlies (think trying to re-sign Muz would be priority #1 moreso than Barrie).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 26, 2019, 10:54:36 AM
Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 26, 2019, 11:09:24 AM


The other idea that's been lurking around in the back of my mind is to trade Ceci to someone for essentially nothing (maybe we add in a 7th round pick or whatever and get back a 6th?) and use that newly opened roster spot to bring Sandin or Liljgren up...but that assumes that they'd be able to handle the much higher difficulty level of the tail end of the season and possible playoffs.


Duh.   ;)

To me what we have here is a test of Dubas's maturity and self-confidence.  Maybe he had to do that particular Zaitsev trade to get rid of the excess cap space (debatable, but whatever) but now that he's had a good look-see-see at 83 he ought to be able to man up, recognize (to himself at least) that his stats with OTT were not an aberration, and get rid of him for whatever he can get.

As to whether Liljegren and/or Sandin can handle it in the playoffs come spring, I have a simple response: Who cares?  They have to learn sometime, and better now than in 2021 when we are a year closer to the end of all these deliciously expensive Big 4 contracts.  As you say we are not on the cusp of greatness, so Kyle quit farting around with Cody Ceci and get on with what needs to be done.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on December 26, 2019, 11:11:10 AM
Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

A few guys on that list that were traded for forwards!! :)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 26, 2019, 11:22:12 AM
Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

Pretty hard to argue with that list. For mine, I got to see the tail end of Orr's career so he'd instantly jump to #1, but I'm fine with Pronger as #2. Bourque would be my #3 ahead of Lidstrom though that's a close call.

That last spot would be a horrible decision. Beyond guys like Chara and Niedermayer I also got to see Brad Park, Al McInnis, Larry Robinson, Phil Housley, Denis Potvin, and Larry Murphy play and, much as I like Keith, I don't think he's in the same conversation. Salming might be in the mix too, though that's probably more due to homerism.

Dragging it back on topic, what we need is something like a Letang...a gem drafted in the middle round. Unfortunately our competitive window might not have enough time for that (not to mention the fans would riot before that hypothetical player had enough time to develop).

...so Kyle quit farting around with Cody Ceci and get on with what needs to be done.
It takes two to tango. I don't want to see him have to cough up a decent pick or young asset to move on from Ceci so it might just be that there's no other GM willing to take on that salary at a price Dubas is willing to pay. If he can find a way to move on by the deadline, great, as long as the cost is minimal. If not, let him play out the season on the 3rd pairing, and if you really want to you can bring up one of the kids for the playoffs when there's no cap. Ceci can be a black ace while one of the others gets his feet wet on the 3rd pairing.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 26, 2019, 11:33:23 AM
I'll take Borje Salming for $1,000. Alex
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Crake on December 26, 2019, 11:43:34 AM
What's the latest on Dustin Byfuglien? The last I heard the relationship with the Jets was pretty bad and they might be forced to move him once he's healthy. A trade involving Kapanen and Barrie might be a place to start
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 26, 2019, 12:03:34 PM
Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

A few guys on that list that were traded for forwards!! :)

If it lands us Pronger, I'd be willing to trade Shanahan.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: nutman on December 26, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
Me  I would take a Scott Stevens in his prime in a heartbeat .
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 26, 2019, 02:29:59 PM
Trade Nylander and we're left with a single top-6 winger on the team. That's a problem. He just isn't as expendable as some people think he is. I get the defence can use improving, but not at that cost*.

*obligatory comment that specifies if the defenceman is a Provorov/Werenski type then sure let's talk but those guys aren't available so let's stop pretending this is what we're talking about when people say 'Trade Nylander!'


I think Nylander could score the OT winner in the Stanley Cup final and there would still be someone with a take like "yeah but if we had traded Nylander for Pietrangelo this game wouldn't have had to go to OT!"
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 27, 2019, 10:53:55 AM
Me  I would take a Scott Stevens in his prime in a heartbeat .

I think Scott Stevens would get eaten alive with today's speed.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 27, 2019, 11:52:50 AM

Damn. So Moore was expected to return from his shoulder injury on the 17th against the Sabres. He ended up staying out because he took a "bump" at practice the day before and reported that he wasn't feeling right. He then missed the next game on the 20th as well, before playing on the 21st against the Red Wings. He then missed the game on the 23rd against Carolina because he again reported "not feeling well".

I get concussions are tricky, but really what as the point in him playing 9 minutes against Detroit when he could have just taken another week off during the Christmas break?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 27, 2019, 11:57:21 AM
I get concussions are tricky, but really what as the point in him playing 9 minutes against Detroit when he could have just taken another week off during the Christmas break?
I think the problem is the player can feel fine and test fine, think he's ready to go, and then something unexpected sets him back. With a player like Moore you would also think that he puts a lot of pressure on himself to get back into the line-up as soon as possible whereas a more established NHLer who had no job security fears at all might have taken a bit of extra time. If the player doesn't report it -- or isn't honest with himself -- it's the kind of injury that team doctors can't really evaluate independent of what the player is telling them.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 27, 2019, 12:07:29 PM
I get concussions are tricky, but really what as the point in him playing 9 minutes against Detroit when he could have just taken another week off during the Christmas break?
I think the problem is the player can feel fine and test fine, think he's ready to go, and then something unexpected sets him back. With a player like Moore you would also think that he puts a lot of pressure on himself to get back into the line-up as soon as possible whereas a more established NHLer who had no job security fears at all might have taken a bit of extra time. If the player doesn't report it -- or isn't honest with himself -- it's the kind of injury that team doctors can't really evaluate independent of what the player is telling them.


Yeah it's not like a broken bone or something you can tell is healed. He might have felt he was 100% but then nope. Sucks for him hope he's better soon.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Pick on December 27, 2019, 05:41:39 PM
Or Neidermayer or Lidstrom or Coffey or Orr or....

Just personally, of the guys I've seen play in my lifetime, my top 5 Defensemen I'd want on the ice with a 1 goal lead are:

1. Pronger
2. Lidstrom
3. Bourque
4. Chara
5. Niedermayer/Keith

Although that may be a little off topic.

Pretty hard to argue with that list. For mine, I got to see the tail end of Orr's career so he'd instantly jump to #1, but I'm fine with Pronger as #2. Bourque would be my #3 ahead of Lidstrom though that's a close call.

That last spot would be a horrible decision. Beyond guys like Chara and Niedermayer I also got to see Brad Park, Al McInnis, Larry Robinson, Phil Housley, Denis Potvin, and Larry Murphy play and, much as I like Keith, I don't think he's in the same conversation. Salming might be in the mix too, though that's probably more due to homerism.

Dragging it back on topic, what we need is something like a Letang...a gem drafted in the middle round. Unfortunately our competitive window might not have enough time for that (not to mention the fans would riot before that hypothetical player had enough time to develop).

...so Kyle quit farting around with Cody Ceci and get on with what needs to be done.
It takes two to tango. I don't want to see him have to cough up a decent pick or young asset to move on from Ceci so it might just be that there's no other GM willing to take on that salary at a price Dubas is willing to pay. If he can find a way to move on by the deadline, great, as long as the cost is minimal. If not, let him play out the season on the 3rd pairing, and if you really want to you can bring up one of the kids for the playoffs when there's no cap. Ceci can be a black ace while one of the others gets his feet wet on the 3rd pairing.

I'd place Serge Savard over some on that list.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 27, 2019, 08:12:00 PM
With a patented Savardian spinorama move.

God I loved Danny Galivan and Dick Irvin.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 27, 2019, 09:56:11 PM
With their run reversing the early damage, this deserves another share.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 27, 2019, 10:15:52 PM
With a patented Savardian spinorama move.

God I loved Danny Galivan and Dick Irvin.
Danny Gallivan was awesome. Irvin was pretty good too!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 28, 2019, 03:11:17 AM
With a patented Savardian spinorama move.

God I loved Danny Galivan and Dick Irvin.
Danny Gallivan was awesome. Irvin was pretty good too!


Every Saturday night from Mon...tree..alll!  That was back in those glorious days of the Flying Frenchmen.  While watching the Leafs, the broadcast would turn it over to showcase whenever the Habs scored.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 28, 2019, 07:22:25 AM
With a patented Savardian spinorama move.

God I loved Danny Galivan and Dick Irvin.
Danny Gallivan was awesome. Irvin was pretty good too!


Every Saturday night from Mon...tree..alll!  That was back in those glorious days of the Flying Frenchmen.  While watching the Leafs, the broadcast would turn it over to showcase whenever the Habs scored.
Wow...that really sets off the ol' nostalgia glands
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 28, 2019, 12:27:07 PM
Just chiming in to say, what kind of a season would we be having if Rielly wasn't having the worst season of his career (via my goodly eyeballs)?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 28, 2019, 12:28:26 PM
Just chiming in to say, what kind of a season would we be having if Rielly wasn't having the worst season of his career (via my goodly eyeballs)?

I'm always a big Rielly defender but he has been horrible. Last night was painful to watch
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 28, 2019, 02:33:40 PM
The @MapleLeafs have recalled forward Kenny Agostino and defenceman Timothy Liljegren from the @TorontoMarlies (AHL).

Forwards Ilya Mikheyev and Trevor Moore have been placed on injured reserve. #LeafsForever 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 28, 2019, 04:36:33 PM
Muzzin finally goes down too

Martin Marincin time!

And Sandin-Liljegren szn after the WJC
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Arn on December 28, 2019, 05:11:40 PM
This is going to be one of those seasons where the Leafs never actually ice their full first choice lineup isnít it
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 28, 2019, 05:49:04 PM
This is going to be one of those seasons where the Leafs never actually ice their full first choice lineup isnít it

All preseason long we wondered who would have to be sent down to run our 20-player lineup due to cap issues. Problem solved!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 28, 2019, 07:02:39 PM
Muzzin finally goes down too

Martin Marincin time!

And Sandin-Liljegren szn after the WJC
What the F, just heard about Muzzin...Wow, two of my favorites...in one game?  Time for some other to step up
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Strangelove on December 28, 2019, 09:57:54 PM
So whatís up with Rielly? Was last year an aberration and this is the real deal? Does he need a 40 year old man at his side to play well?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 28, 2019, 09:59:31 PM
I think itís somewhere in the middle. His shooting percentage was unsustainable last season. His legs are back after whatever was ailing him earlier this season, so Rielly will keep getting chances.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 28, 2019, 10:51:16 PM
Not worried about him offensively. His D play is concerning.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 28, 2019, 10:55:48 PM
A 9% shooting percentage vs. a career 5% SV% has some effect on his point totals.  Three of his last 4 seasons his shooting percentage has been in the 3% range too.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 30, 2019, 12:04:52 PM

(https://i.imgflip.com/3ks9ik.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 30, 2019, 12:50:46 PM
Is the any particular reason the Leafs are constantly bringing up assorted Marlies and then sending them back down again? Is there some mystifying cap benefit in doing so?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 30, 2019, 01:04:20 PM
Is the any particular reason the Leafs are constantly bringing up assorted Marlies and then sending them back down again? Is there some mystifying cap benefit in doing so?

It helps maximize the available LTIR space, I believe.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on December 30, 2019, 01:12:30 PM
Is the any particular reason the Leafs are constantly bringing up assorted Marlies and then sending them back down again? Is there some mystifying cap benefit in doing so?

It helps maximize the available LTIR space, I believe.
I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my head around the way that works. Makes the Riemann Hypothesis simple in comparison.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 30, 2019, 01:15:18 PM
Is the any particular reason the Leafs are constantly bringing up assorted Marlies and then sending them back down again? Is there some mystifying cap benefit in doing so?

No cap benefit that I can think of. Isnít the LTIR set at the beginning once you start using it? Is it recalculated every time we put someone else on? Costs MLSE a couple more real dollars actually.

Aside from needing road trip reinforcements, the benefit is integrating the next wave of call ups into practices and the team as a whole, as well as rewarding good AHL/ECHL performances with the trickle down call ups. Training camp atmosphere persists for the fringes. We couldnít do this with a healthy cap-strapped roster. Itís a good time to see whether we need to re-up Muzzin or not.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 30, 2019, 01:28:53 PM
Kivihalme is from Minnesota and Brooks is from Winnipeg so Iíd look for them to start those games respectively.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 30, 2019, 01:30:16 PM
No cap benefit that I can think of. Isnít the LTIR set at the beginning once you start using it? Is it recalculated every time we put someone else on?

The biggest thing with LTIR space is that, any space you don't use disappears when the player returns, but, if you've used it, that potential space remains available. It's a complicated, hard to wrap your head around system, but the Leafs have one of the best cap guys in the league with Pridham, so, whatever they're doing, you can be sure it's to maximize their use of the cap space they have available.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 30, 2019, 01:34:31 PM
Kivihalme is from Minnesota and Brooks is from Winnipeg so Iíd look for them to start those games respectively.

I'd be pretty surprised to see them pull Marincin out of the line-up just so Kivihalme could get that game. I'm sure it'll be neat for him to take that game in as a scratch even and a few extra grand in his pocket will be appreciated.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 30, 2019, 01:42:42 PM
Kivihalme is going on the trip, Liljegrin isn't, per Shilton.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 30, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
Kivihalme is going on the trip, Liljegrin isn't, per Shilton.

Marlies play in Toronto at 3pm tomorrow, so I'd guess Liljegren will be reassigned for that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 30, 2019, 01:48:31 PM
No cap benefit that I can think of. Isnít the LTIR set at the beginning once you start using it? Is it recalculated every time we put someone else on?

The biggest thing with LTIR space is that, any space you don't use disappears when the player returns, but, if you've used it, that potential space remains available. It's a complicated, hard to wrap your head around system, but the Leafs have one of the best cap guys in the league with Pridham, so, whatever they're doing, you can be sure it's to maximize their use of the cap space they have available.

Oh thatís an interesting wrinkle I havenít heard of yet. Itís not too hard to understand but annoying to keep track of. A stacked bar graphic will help illustrate. Thanks!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 30, 2019, 04:39:16 PM
Matthews and Andersen going to the All-Star game.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: lamajama on December 30, 2019, 05:04:48 PM
I was hoping Freddie was not going so he could rest up for the next 93 games.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 30, 2019, 05:57:48 PM
I was hoping Freddie was not going so he could rest up for the next 93 games.
Haha, 93 games! It's actually nice that he is going and has been recognized finally. I don't think he'll be working that hard.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 30, 2019, 06:01:58 PM

Quote
With this being a young team that is offensively gifted, is teaching defense a little harder? Would you say that is fair?

Keefe: Yeah, I do think that is fair. However, I think if you really look at it, a lot of our issues that have come up that have cost us goals against, it is easy to say they are defensive issues because it is going into our net, but we think they are offensive issues. They are turning the puck over in a bad spot. You canít have any structure defensively when you turn the puck over in a bad spot. We think it is overdoing it a little bit on offense and then you leave yourself exposed.

This is how you frame your coaching for this team
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 31, 2019, 03:28:25 PM
From Friedman's 31 Thoughts:

Quote
12. I went to Game 7 of the Calder Cup Final in 2018 (Toronto beat Texas that night for the championship in a packed, crazed rink ó was a fun night). During one of the intermissions, I ran into the great Rich Clune, who was not dressed for the game. He pointed to the person standing next to him and asked, ďHave you ever met Jeremy Bracco?Ē I hadnít. He said, ďYouíre going to see plenty of him.Ē Bracco only dressed for four games in that run, but finished second in the AHL in scoring last season and is fifth in assists this year.

His path to the Maple Leafs is blocked by some elite, elite skill and he wants to see if thereís a better opportunity somewhere else. Toronto is willing to accommodate, but have not been shy in their asks, apparently. Iím curious to see what the market is. Iím also curious to see if this could be part of a bigger deal. Ben Harpur and Dmytro Timashov have also asked Toronto to see whatís out there for them.

He talked about this on last Saturday's headlines as well, but clarifies that Dubas is shopping these players because they've asked to be shopped. Again, this makes sense for Bracco and Harpur but I'm even more confused by Timashov being in this conversation now.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 31, 2019, 03:36:51 PM
From Friedman's 31 Thoughts:

Quote
12. I went to Game 7 of the Calder Cup Final in 2018 (Toronto beat Texas that night for the championship in a packed, crazed rink ó was a fun night). During one of the intermissions, I ran into the great Rich Clune, who was not dressed for the game. He pointed to the person standing next to him and asked, ďHave you ever met Jeremy Bracco?Ē I hadnít. He said, ďYouíre going to see plenty of him.Ē Bracco only dressed for four games in that run, but finished second in the AHL in scoring last season and is fifth in assists this year.

His path to the Maple Leafs is blocked by some elite, elite skill and he wants to see if thereís a better opportunity somewhere else. Toronto is willing to accommodate, but have not been shy in their asks, apparently. Iím curious to see what the market is. Iím also curious to see if this could be part of a bigger deal. Ben Harpur and Dmytro Timashov have also asked Toronto to see whatís out there for them.

He talked about this on last Saturday's headlines as well, but clarifies that Dubas is shopping these players because they've asked to be shopped. Again, this makes sense for Bracco and Harpur but I'm even more confused by Timashov being in this conversation now.
Timashov probably thinks he belongs in the top 9? Can't blame Bracco though. I would still like to see him get a shot here just to see what he can do. Hate to see him get developed here and leave for a pick.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 31, 2019, 03:48:43 PM

Quote
With this being a young team that is offensively gifted, is teaching defense a little harder? Would you say that is fair?

Keefe: Yeah, I do think that is fair. However, I think if you really look at it, a lot of our issues that have come up that have cost us goals against, it is easy to say they are defensive issues because it is going into our net, but we think they are offensive issues. They are turning the puck over in a bad spot. You canít have any structure defensively when you turn the puck over in a bad spot. We think it is overdoing it a little bit on offense and then you leave yourself exposed.

This is how you frame your coaching for this team

He's well aware of the fine line between keeping this team creative/possessive and being gun-shy. They completely lost their confidence to make plays under the old regime. I've noticed that since the creative juices are always flowing the powerplay has improved simply because of the fact they don't have to "turn on" the creativity anymore. A difficult thing to do.

I noticed on two goals last game Marner was filling in for pinching D but not far enough back, leading to odd-man rushes. That kind of thing can be easily corrected with better situational awareness.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on December 31, 2019, 04:33:59 PM
From Friedman's 31 Thoughts:

Quote
12. I went to Game 7 of the Calder Cup Final in 2018 (Toronto beat Texas that night for the championship in a packed, crazed rink ó was a fun night). During one of the intermissions, I ran into the great Rich Clune, who was not dressed for the game. He pointed to the person standing next to him and asked, ďHave you ever met Jeremy Bracco?Ē I hadnít. He said, ďYouíre going to see plenty of him.Ē Bracco only dressed for four games in that run, but finished second in the AHL in scoring last season and is fifth in assists this year.

His path to the Maple Leafs is blocked by some elite, elite skill and he wants to see if thereís a better opportunity somewhere else. Toronto is willing to accommodate, but have not been shy in their asks, apparently. Iím curious to see what the market is. Iím also curious to see if this could be part of a bigger deal. Ben Harpur and Dmytro Timashov have also asked Toronto to see whatís out there for them.

He talked about this on last Saturday's headlines as well, but clarifies that Dubas is shopping these players because they've asked to be shopped. Again, this makes sense for Bracco and Harpur but I'm even more confused by Timashov being in this conversation now.
Timashov probably thinks he belongs in the top 9? Can't blame Bracco though. I would still like to see him get a shot here just to see what he can do. Hate to see him get developed here and leave for a pick.
Not sure what to make of Timashov. He's produced reasonably well considering his usage. He's quick, physical for his size, seems to have decent skills. I'd consider rearranging the lines, put Kerfoot back at 3rd C, move Engval up with Tavares, and try Timashov on the 3rd line. See what he can do with more time and responsibility.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 31, 2019, 07:51:53 PM
From Friedman's 31 Thoughts:

Quote
12. I went to Game 7 of the Calder Cup Final in 2018 (Toronto beat Texas that night for the championship in a packed, crazed rink ó was a fun night). During one of the intermissions, I ran into the great Rich Clune, who was not dressed for the game. He pointed to the person standing next to him and asked, ďHave you ever met Jeremy Bracco?Ē I hadnít. He said, ďYouíre going to see plenty of him.Ē Bracco only dressed for four games in that run, but finished second in the AHL in scoring last season and is fifth in assists this year.

His path to the Maple Leafs is blocked by some elite, elite skill and he wants to see if thereís a better opportunity somewhere else. Toronto is willing to accommodate, but have not been shy in their asks, apparently. Iím curious to see what the market is. Iím also curious to see if this could be part of a bigger deal. Ben Harpur and Dmytro Timashov have also asked Toronto to see whatís out there for them.

He talked about this on last Saturday's headlines as well, but clarifies that Dubas is shopping these players because they've asked to be shopped. Again, this makes sense for Bracco and Harpur but I'm even more confused by Timashov being in this conversation now.
Timashov probably thinks he belongs in the top 9? Can't blame Bracco though. I would still like to see him get a shot here just to see what he can do. Hate to see him get developed here and leave for a pick.
Not sure what to make of Timashov. He's produced reasonably well considering his usage. He's quick, physical for his size, seems to have decent skills. I'd consider rearranging the lines, put Kerfoot back at 3rd C, move Engval up with Tavares, and try Timashov on the 3rd line. See what he can do with more time and responsibility.
I second this idea, even though I would be interested to see Engvall with Matthews and Willie. 
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 31, 2019, 10:04:02 PM
Holy cow the Habs were 5 points up with a game in hand on the Leafs when Babcock was fired. They're now 7 points back of the Leafs. What a swing.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 31, 2019, 11:15:23 PM
I see it as a race between Leafs, Bolts and Panthers for those two ATL spots behind Boston. Buffalo has fallen well behind with a -10 goal differential and Montreal has lost a lot of ground. The Metro continues to look strong for those two wild-card spots. Half a season left and the Leafs are fun too watch again!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 01, 2020, 08:56:34 AM

3 Statements about William Nylander:

1) He's now on pace for a 34 goal, 70 point season
2) Most of us probably agree that he's got another gear in him
3) There were people on this board within the last month saying he should have been traded last year because of the contract negotiations.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 01, 2020, 09:50:25 AM
The PP is way better when Willy gets more touches.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 01, 2020, 09:57:02 AM
Itís also funny that people here harp on Nylanderís consistency issues but have also consistently voted him into MoTM accolades despite the handful of people who always deliberately never vote for him.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 01, 2020, 11:34:32 AM

3 Statements about William Nylander:

1) He's now on pace for a 34 goal, 70 point season
2) Most of us probably agree that he's got another gear in him
3) There were people on this board within the last month saying he should have been traded last year because of the contract negotiations.


I've said it since his deal was signed , he'll end up being the best contract when you take production into account. I still think he can be a point a game player
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on January 01, 2020, 12:01:39 PM
8 more points in 13 fewer games than last year.  His shooting percentage is up from his career at 15.3.  Not including last season where his shooting percentage was down at 5.3% he is a career 11% so it's likely just course correction from last year.  His 36 goal pace is probably going to dip down to 28-30 with a normalized shooting percentage but that's something I'm very happy with.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on January 01, 2020, 12:20:04 PM
The PP is way better when Willy gets more touches.
But the sign said do not touch Willy.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 01, 2020, 01:04:18 PM
The PP is way better when Willy gets more touches.
But the sign said do not touch Willy.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/SCowKz18BUPok/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 01, 2020, 01:04:34 PM

Gives the team an extra forward. Hope he gets a game in Winnipeg. A Marchment-Brooks-Timashov line could be fun. Or Goat for Brooks if we want to keep icing a forward who clearly doesn't belong on this team.

edit: saw someone point out on twitter that Mason's dad was drafted by the Jets and started his NHL career there. He didn't play for them very much and Mason wasn't even born until a few years after he left so I'm not sure how much of an emotional connection there might be there.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 01, 2020, 01:35:51 PM
Keefe won't be satisfied until every player he coached on the Marlies gets at least 1 call up
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 01, 2020, 01:36:45 PM

Gives the team an extra forward. Hope he gets a game in Winnipeg. A Marchment-Brooks-Timashov line could be fun. Or Goat for Brooks if we want to keep icing a forward who clearly doesn't belong on this team.
Saw Marchment play yesterday, he looks ready for the NHL. Much like Engvall. Big guy who can skate well, plays his position well and plays in all scenarios. Looks like he's in pretty good game shape as well considering he missed 2 months or so.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 01, 2020, 01:43:32 PM
Keefe won't be satisfied until every player he coached on the Marlies gets at least 1 call up
I think they're rewarding hard work and good play on the Marlies while auditioning guys for the big club. Many here thought Marchment could make the 4th line out of camp but got injured.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: dekedastardly on January 01, 2020, 01:58:23 PM
Does this guy still play with an edge? Many fights under his belt? Wants to hit everything in sight? I'm hoping. The team looked like they could have used an answer to Foligno last night. I didn't like the one run he took at Dermott.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on January 01, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
Does this guy still play with an edge? Many fights under his belt? Wants to hit everything in sight? I'm hoping. The team looked like they could have used an answer to Foligno last night. I didn't like the one run he took at Dermott.
I think that is what ultimately knocks Gauthier out of the lineup permanently. He has the size to play that role but refuses to. I don't think I've ever seen someone so large be so non physical. If Marchment can bring that and stay out of the penalty box (and of course stay healthy) it might be the end of Gauthier's time with the Leafs.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 01, 2020, 02:30:23 PM
Does this guy still play with an edge? Many fights under his belt? Wants to hit everything in sight? I'm hoping. The team looked like they could have used an answer to Foligno last night. I didn't like the one run he took at Dermott.
I think that is what ultimately knocks Gauthier out of the lineup permanently. He has the size to play that role but refuses to. I don't think I've ever seen someone so large be so non physical. If Marchment can bring that and stay out of the penalty box (and of course stay healthy) it might be the end of Gauthier's time with the Leafs.
Marchment is like Hyman. He's hard on the forecheck, will lay a big hit, looks to be a better skater and probably has better hands. Also goes hard to the net, isn't afraid to rough it up but I wouldn't call him a fighter. He's had 4 fights I believe in his AHL career. He's tough like his father.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 01, 2020, 02:32:37 PM
Marchment definitely has some of his dad in him. He doesn't shy away from physical play at all.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bates on January 01, 2020, 02:41:08 PM
Marchment definitely has some of his dad in him. He doesn't shy away from physical play at all.

Should the Jet's knee doctor be on speed dial?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 01, 2020, 02:45:51 PM
Marchment definitely has some of his dad in him. He doesn't shy away from physical play at all.

Should the Jet's knee doctor be on speed dial?
If he makes it, he'll be another of those long term development projects from ECHL to NHL that we may see more and more of with the Leafs model of trying to plug and play cheap depth pieces.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on January 01, 2020, 02:52:19 PM

Quote
With this being a young team that is offensively gifted, is teaching defense a little harder? Would you say that is fair?

Keefe: Yeah, I do think that is fair. However, I think if you really look at it, a lot of our issues that have come up that have cost us goals against, it is easy to say they are defensive issues because it is going into our net, but we think they are offensive issues. They are turning the puck over in a bad spot. You canít have any structure defensively when you turn the puck over in a bad spot. We think it is overdoing it a little bit on offense and then you leave yourself exposed.

This is how you frame your coaching for this team

He is bang on with that assessment as well.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 01, 2020, 02:53:55 PM
Marchment has an OHL suspension to his name for cross checking Mitch Marner in the face once.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on January 01, 2020, 03:27:14 PM
Does this guy still play with an edge? Many fights under his belt? Wants to hit everything in sight? I'm hoping. The team looked like they could have used an answer to Foligno last night. I didn't like the one run he took at Dermott.
I think that is what ultimately knocks Gauthier out of the lineup permanently. He has the size to play that role but refuses to. I don't think I've ever seen someone so large be so non physical. If Marchment can bring that and stay out of the penalty box (and of course stay healthy) it might be the end of Gauthier's time with the Leafs.
Marchment is like Hyman. He's hard on the forecheck, will lay a big hit, looks to be a better skater and probably has better hands. Also goes hard to the net, isn't afraid to rough it up but I wouldn't call him a fighter. He's had 4 fights I believe in his AHL career. He's tough like his father.
He doesn't have to be a fighter, I'd just like him to use the body and maybe knock a guy down when needed. Leaf players were getting targeted all night last night and there was no response. Yeah, they won the game but they also almost lost a few guys in the process. In recent games Dermott has been crushed at least twice and no response. Gauthier is big enough to put even someone like Foligno on his ass. Should have.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: L K on January 01, 2020, 04:21:47 PM
Marchment definitely has some of his dad in him. He doesn't shy away from physical play at all.

Should the Jet's knee doctor be on speed dial?
If he makes it, he'll be another of those long term development projects from ECHL to NHL that we may see more and more of with the Leafs model of trying to plug and play cheap depth pieces.

It's interesting from a developmental perspective.  How many players get typecast in limited roles and then have their development stagnated because they get set as a 3rd liner until an overager in the juniors and then go on to be middling players in the AHL.  Maybe a year or two of top 6 ECHL play gets some of those skills back and actually lets some guys get back on a prospect track.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 01, 2020, 04:32:24 PM
We only need these projects to pan out and be effective for a year or two at NHL levels, even if theyíre like 28. Our core is largely set and if one of these projects comes through in a big way and displaces a core or secondary piece, thatís a huge value swing. Otherwise, we get cheap NHL players who know our systems inside out and they get a pay day after a season or two here before being traded for fresh assets/projects.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 01, 2020, 05:05:41 PM
Does this guy still play with an edge? Many fights under his belt? Wants to hit everything in sight? I'm hoping. The team looked like they could have used an answer to Foligno last night. I didn't like the one run he took at Dermott.
I think that is what ultimately knocks Gauthier out of the lineup permanently. He has the size to play that role but refuses to. I don't think I've ever seen someone so large be so non physical. If Marchment can bring that and stay out of the penalty box (and of course stay healthy) it might be the end of Gauthier's time with the Leafs.


Re:  about Gauthier.  Could it be that because he once recovered from debilitating injuries, he avoids that type if physicality?

He would be better suited for a team that could use a player with his style of play rather than the Leafs.  The differences between Gauthier & Marchment will be like night and day (in physical play).
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 01, 2020, 05:11:10 PM
ďThinking bigĒ...sprinkled with plenty of optimism:


Title: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 02, 2020, 09:25:48 AM
From Friedman's 31 thoughts

Quote
ďHave you ever met Jeremy Bracco?Ē I hadnít. He said, ďYouíre going to see plenty of him.Ē Bracco only dressed for four games in that run, but finished second in the AHL in scoring last season and is fifth in assists this year.

His path to the Maple Leafs is blocked by some elite, elite skill and he wants to see if thereís a better opportunity somewhere else. Toronto is willing to accommodate, but have not been shy in their asks, apparently. Iím curious to see what the market is. Iím also curious to see if this could be part of a bigger deal. Ben Harpur and Dmytro Timashov have also asked Toronto to see whatís out there for them.


I understand Bracco and Harpur asking for trades as they're stuck on the Marlies but Timashov too? I guess he wants more minutes and feels he can do more than just 4th line duty?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 02, 2020, 09:54:09 AM
https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/tavares-up-close-look-at-nylander-has-leafs-captain-impressed

WOW. Toronto Sun* runs an article complimenting Nylander. Funny it has to be transmitted through good ol' Ontario boy and blue collar captain John Tavares to impute his reputation into the assessment.

* Terry Koshan is actually quite good, as far as Toronto newpaper sports writers go, especially relative to his colleagues.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 02, 2020, 12:50:01 PM
https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/tavares-up-close-look-at-nylander-has-leafs-captain-impressed

WOW. Toronto Sun* runs an article complimenting Nylander. Funny it has to be transmitted through good ol' Ontario boy and blue collar captain John Tavares to impute his reputation into the assessment.

* Terry Koshan is actually quite good, as far as Toronto newpaper sports writers go, especially relative to his colleagues.

Speaking of those colleagues... Lance Hornby gave Nylander a solid C+ in his mid-season grades.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 02, 2020, 01:26:17 PM
Speaking of those colleagues... Lance Hornby gave Nylander a solid C+ in his mid-season grades.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/895eaeda1b29a214809fc0a366b4774d/tenor.gif?itemid=15892140)

I know my defense of Nylander is meme-level by now, but to be fair, Iíve been like this for like 4.5 years already.

Like it wouldnít surprise me if the latter years of Tavaresí contract sees him shifted to Nylanderís wing while Matthews continues to goon goal it up with Marner.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Chris on January 02, 2020, 01:36:59 PM
https://torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/tavares-up-close-look-at-nylander-has-leafs-captain-impressed

WOW. Toronto Sun* runs an article complimenting Nylander. Funny it has to be transmitted through good ol' Ontario boy and blue collar captain John Tavares to impute his reputation into the assessment.

* Terry Koshan is actually quite good, as far as Toronto newpaper sports writers go, especially relative to his colleagues.

Speaking of those colleagues... Lance Hornby gave Nylander a solid C+ in his mid-season grades.
Saw that article. Some of those ratings seemed...bizarre to say the least. Think he should be a solid B+ or higher, the guy has been driving play all year. He gave Mikheyev a C+ as well and that looked low to me.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 02, 2020, 01:40:01 PM
Just going by the comments to his article tweet, he also had Marner > Matthews. Sup Paul?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 03, 2020, 12:17:19 PM
Atlantic standings the day Babcock was fired:

PositionTeamGPPTS
1BOS2131
2MTL2227
3FLA2127
4BUF2123
5TOR2322
6TB1820

Atlantic standings today:

PositionTeamGPPTS
1BOS4259
2TOR4251
3TB3948
4FLA4047
5BUF4243
6MTL4142

Atlantic standings between the day Babcock was fired and today:

PositionTeamGPPTS
1TOR1929
2TB2128
3BOS2027
4FLA1920
5BUF2120
6MTL2016
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 03, 2020, 12:34:55 PM
I guess the logical conclusion from those standings is that Sheldon Keefe is inspiring the Tampa Bay Lightning.  The guy cuts a wide swathe.

Seriously, we are on to having a pretty fair sample size and it does indeed look like there is a genuine Keefe Effect.  I guess the question is whether Babcock's Right Way is what will succeed in the playoffs or whether Dubas Unshackled is where to lay your chips.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Arn on January 03, 2020, 12:45:32 PM
I guess the question is whether Babcock's Right Way is what will succeed in the playoffs or whether Dubas Unshackled is where to lay your chips.

Indeed, but had Babcock stayed in place I have a feeling we may not have had a playoffs to test his hypothesis out in whereas it looks more likely weíll get to test Keefes way out
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 03, 2020, 12:56:18 PM
Seriously, we are on to having a pretty fair sample size and it does indeed look like there is a genuine Keefe Effect.

My favourite part about it all is that, outside of the PP efficiency, it doesn't looks like they've been riding a completely unsustainable trend. Their 5-on-5 shooting and save percentages under Keefe are very much in line with the rates they put up over the last couple seasons.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 03, 2020, 01:04:03 PM
Seriously, we are on to having a pretty fair sample size and it does indeed look like there is a genuine Keefe Effect.

My favourite part about it all is that, outside of the PP efficiency, it doesn't looks like they've been riding a completely unsustainable trend. Their 5-on-5 shooting and save percentages under Keefe are very much in line with the rates they put up over the last couple seasons.

If the Leafs finish top-5 or so in the league (currently 8th, 10th in points percentage) I could see him even being a Jack Adams nominee.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 03, 2020, 01:33:04 PM
Seriously, we are on to having a pretty fair sample size and it does indeed look like there is a genuine Keefe Effect.

My favourite part about it all is that, outside of the PP efficiency, it doesn't looks like they've been riding a completely unsustainable trend. Their 5-on-5 shooting and save percentages under Keefe are very much in line with the rates they put up over the last couple seasons.

If the Leafs finish top-5 or so in the league (currently 8th, 10th in points percentage) I could see him even being a Jack Adams nominee.

100%

If they continue winning at such a good clip and get over 100 points after that garbage start he'll be a serious contender for coach of the year
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 03, 2020, 07:33:39 PM
Poignant, timely analysis as usual
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on January 03, 2020, 08:22:39 PM
Poignant, timely analysis as usual

The returns for Nylander, Matthews, Marner, and Taveres will be astronomical. Letís get the rebuild started!!!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 03, 2020, 08:34:47 PM
Oilers should sell high on McDavid
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on January 03, 2020, 10:01:11 PM
Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Bailey, Nylander.

What do all these guys have in common?
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 03, 2020, 10:10:45 PM
Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Bailey, Nylander.

What do all these guys have in common?
Add Marner. Career years playing with JT.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 03, 2020, 10:27:01 PM
Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Bailey, Nylander.

What do all these guys have in common?

Nylander's played 3 games with Tavares this season. You can't possibly be trying to suggest that he owes his success this season to JT, right? Because boy that'd be dumb. I'm sure that's not what you meant though. So I'll guess the thing they have in common is they all like scrabble.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on January 03, 2020, 10:38:53 PM
Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Bailey, Nylander.

What do all these guys have in common?

Nylander's played 3 games with Tavares this season. You can't possibly be trying to suggest that he owes his success this season to JT, right? Because boy that'd be dumb. I'm sure that's not what you meant though. So I'll guess the thing they have in common is they all like scrabble.

Easy, there.

I think you and I have a different idea of what constitutes "success". He's had a fairly average season up until the last three games, going through long stretches of games in December without any points, being benched, and it's recency bias that's elevating all of his press.

I think there's always going to be puck luck that drives short term results above and below the average, but there's plenty of history to show that Tavares has made a career out of making good players look like very good players. It'll be interesting to keep an eye on.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 03, 2020, 10:52:15 PM
I think you and I have a different idea of what constitutes "success". He's had a fairly average season up until the last three games, going through long stretches of games in December without any points, being benched, and it's recency bias that's elevating all of his press.

Even prior to the 4 games with Tavares (I said 3 originally, it's actually 4) he was still on pace to smash his career high in goals and was actually scoring at a higher rate per game at 5-on-5 than Tavares was. If anything Willy's bolstered his play in the past few games, and JT has actually whiffed on a number of high quality scoring chances that Nylander set him up on.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on January 03, 2020, 11:08:46 PM
I think you and I have a different idea of what constitutes "success". He's had a fairly average season up until the last three games, going through long stretches of games in December without any points, being benched, and it's recency bias that's elevating all of his press.

Even prior to the 4 games with Tavares (I said 3 originally, it's actually 4) he was still on pace to smash his career high in goals and was actually scoring at a higher rate per game at 5-on-5 than Tavares was. If anything Willy's bolstered his play in the past few games, and JT has actually whiffed on a number of high quality scoring chances that Nylander set him up on.

1) I'm not sure that "smashing a career high" in goals is all that meaningful when the prior high is 20. For 7M, I'd expect continual growth.

2) I'll bet that if Nylander had broken his thumb instead of Tavares, you'd be less impressed with those 5 on 5 comparables. These injury effects don't just disappear overnight.

Nylander is a good player. It's great for leaf fans that he's having a nice run of late, because it's been over a calendar year in coming. But the hyperbole is just unbelievable to me. There's many players around the league that bring results relative to his.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 04, 2020, 10:10:26 AM

Poignant, timely analysis as usual

My initial reaction was anger at how stupid that suggestion was. But, after reading the article with an open mind, I have to admit the author's conclusion is persuasive. Everyone should read the article.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 04, 2020, 12:18:42 PM

Thanks to Tavares!
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 04, 2020, 12:32:02 PM
Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Bailey, Nylander.

What do all these guys have in common?

Only Moulson saw his goal scoring ability drop off virtually immediately after no longer playing on the same team as Tavares. The others all still scored at a similar rate, but saw their assist totals drop - which isnít really an indicator of their individual talents, but the lack of talent on the teams they all ended up with.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 04, 2020, 01:01:31 PM
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/quick-shifts-sheldon-keefe-toronto-maple-leafs-dubas-nylander/

Quote
2. Upon the conclusion of the Maple Leafsí Dec. 27 overtime win at the Prudential Center, a cluster of reporters was biding an abnormal amount of time outside the visitorsí dressing room hoping to speak with winning-goal scorer William Nylander (even if it was Damon Severson who actually shot the puck in).

Dubas was a little surprised to see media types lingering so long. So on his way (weíd later learn) to visit injured Ilya Mikheyev at the hospital, Dubas wondered what we were doing.

Waiting for Nylander.

ďAhÖ Iíve waited for him before too,Ē Dubas quipped, not missing a beat.

As the exec exited the rink, he made a point to add, ďHeís worth it.Ē
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 04, 2020, 10:30:43 PM

6 points behind Boston now. And the Leafs are actually tied with them in wins and just one ROW behind.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 04, 2020, 10:48:29 PM

6 points behind Boston now. And the Leafs are actually tied with them in wins and just one ROW behind.


Within reach of first (Boston) is attainable.  At least for the time being.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 04, 2020, 11:31:15 PM
Bieber is becoming the Leafs version of Drake
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 05, 2020, 12:26:57 AM
6 points behind Boston now. And the Leafs are actually tied with them in wins and just one ROW behind.

Not surprisingly, once Marchand and Pastrnak's shooting percentages started to regress to more realistic levels, the Bruins started to struggle. 15 games ago, those two were shooting 25.7% and 22.5% respectively, and Boston was 20-3-5. Since then, they've shot 4.7% and 10.2%, and the Bruins have gone 4-5-6.

The Bruins are basically a one line team - it's just that that line was the best in the league for the first two months. They rely so heavily on their first line for offence, they were always due to fall back to the pack. The trio of Bergeron, Marchand, and Pastrnak have combined for 68 goals. The rest of their forward group has 53, while the blue line has chipped in 19.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on January 05, 2020, 01:06:46 AM
6 points behind Boston now. And the Leafs are actually tied with them in wins and just one ROW behind.

Not surprisingly, once Marchand and Pastrnak's shooting percentages started to regress to more realistic levels, the Bruins started to struggle. 15 games ago, those two were shooting 25.7% and 22.5% respectively, and Boston was 20-3-5. Since then, they've shot 4.7% and 10.2%, and the Bruins have gone 4-5-6.

The Bruins are basically a one line team - it's just that that line was the best in the league for the first two months. They rely so heavily on their first line for offence, they were always due to fall back to the pack. The trio of Bergeron, Marchand, and Pastrnak have combined for 68 goals. The rest of their forward group has 53, while the blue line has chipped in 19.

If we have to play them again the playoffs (assuming we make it!), I will so dread their power play.  I donít know how to improve our PK but if we donít, weíd need to go penalty-free ...
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on January 05, 2020, 01:07:26 AM

6 points behind Boston now. And the Leafs are actually tied with them in wins and just one ROW behind.

If they lose next game, it is your fault.

Knock on wood.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on January 05, 2020, 05:17:28 AM
This team is 15-4-1 in their last twenty games (Keefe's tenure).
GF/G 4.10
GA/G 2.70
PP 36.6%
PK 80.0%
GF 82
GA 54

Six games left before the 8-day all-star break:

Edmonton
Winnipeg
@ Florida
New Jersey
Calgary
Chicago
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 05, 2020, 12:31:03 PM

Johnsson and Moore are both skating at practice, which is obviously a good first sign in their potential return.

Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: dekedastardly on January 05, 2020, 12:46:05 PM
What goes on when those two are ready to return? Engvall should stay with the big club. Moore's had an awful season. What do you do with Timashov? Gauthier still sucks.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 05, 2020, 12:48:44 PM
What goes on when those two are ready to return? Engvall should stay with the big club. Moore's had an awful season. What do you do with Timashov? Gauthier still sucks.

The one silver lining to Mikheyev's injury is that it's opened up enough cap space for Engvall to stick with the team for the season (they have the same AAV). So he's safe now. Brooks and Marchment will go back down and that will leave us with 13 forwards.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on January 05, 2020, 01:16:07 PM
What goes on when those two are ready to return? Engvall should stay with the big club. Moore's had an awful season. What do you do with Timashov? Gauthier still sucks.

The one silver lining to Mikheyev's injury is that it's opened up enough cap space for Engvall to stick with the team for the season (they have the same AAV). So he's safe now. Brooks and Marchment will go back down and that will leave us with 13 forwards.
It would be criminally unfair to Engvall to send him down. His play says he's perfectly ready for the NHL. I hope like heck when the dust settles he's still in the regular line-up
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 05, 2020, 01:22:59 PM
It would be criminally unfair to Engvall to send him down. His play says he's perfectly ready for the NHL. I hope like heck when the dust settles he's still in the regular line-up

He's literally just replaced Mikheyev in almost every way. When healthy the Leafs will run a 21-man roster that looks something like this:

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Johnsson-Tavares-Nylander
Engvall-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Timashov-Spezza-Moore
Gauthier

Rielly-Barrie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Ceci

Andersen
Hutch

Forward lines could obviously be scrambled depending on who gets scratched on the 4th line that day or if the Leafs decide to keep Kerfoot on the wing, but the point stands Engvall should consider himself safe to play in the NHL for the rest of the season. The only scenario I could see him getting sent down is the same one that Mikheyev faced: if the Leafs need to quickly call up a 7th defenceman in case of injury as he would be the only waiver-eligible player.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on January 05, 2020, 01:32:32 PM
...The only scenario I could see him getting sent down is the same one that Mikheyev faced: if the Leafs need to quickly call up a 7th defenceman in case of injury as he would be the only waiver-eligible player.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that it won't come to that.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on January 05, 2020, 01:35:39 PM
A bottom 6 of

Johnsson - Engvall - Kapanen
Timashov - Spezza - Moore

Could be pretty good
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 05, 2020, 01:38:33 PM
...The only scenario I could see him getting sent down is the same one that Mikheyev faced: if the Leafs need to quickly call up a 7th defenceman in case of injury as he would be the only waiver-eligible player.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that it won't come to that.

I mean it wouldn't even be a big deal if it were to happen. That would just mean there's a minor day to day injury (something that isn't eligible for LTIR) so he wouldn't be down long.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 05, 2020, 01:40:04 PM
When totally healthy, that includes Mikheyev, he or Engvall will go to the Marlies. There's no choice because they both make over 900k. In order to keep both in the lineup, Dubas will have to trade someone making Hyman money plus. Doesn't look like we'll have to worry about it this year though. Mikheyev isn't close to playing for a long time and guys keep getting hurt.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on January 05, 2020, 01:45:52 PM
When totally healthy, that includes Mikheyev, he or Engvall will go to the Marlies. There's no choice because they both make over 900k. In order to keep both in the lineup, Dubas will have to trade someone making Hyman money plus. Doesn't look like we'll have to worry about it this year though. Mikheyev isn't close to playing for a long time and guys keep getting hurt.

Salary cap doesn't apply during the playoffs so if worst came to worst I guess if Mikheyev comes back for the last week or two of the season Engvall could be sent down and then brought back up as soon as they play the final regular season game.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 05, 2020, 01:49:54 PM
When totally healthy, that includes Mikheyev, he or Engvall will go to the Marlies. There's no choice because they both make over 900k. In order to keep both in the lineup, Dubas will have to trade someone making Hyman money plus. Doesn't look like we'll have to worry about it this year though. Mikheyev isn't close to playing for a long time and guys keep getting hurt.

Salary cap doesn't apply during the playoffs so if worst came to worst I guess if Mikheyev comes back for the last week or two of the season Engvall could be sent down and then brought back up as soon as they play the final regular season game.
Thabsk for the info. I was wondering about playoffs and how the cap works. They could also send Mikheyev down for a conditioning stint.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 05, 2020, 01:57:25 PM
When totally healthy, that includes Mikheyev, he or Engvall will go to the Marlies. There's no choice because they both make over 900k. In order to keep both in the lineup, Dubas will have to trade someone making Hyman money plus. Doesn't look like we'll have to worry about it this year though. Mikheyev isn't close to playing for a long time and guys keep getting hurt.

Salary cap doesn't apply during the playoffs so if worst came to worst I guess if Mikheyev comes back for the last week or two of the season Engvall could be sent down and then brought back up as soon as they play the final regular season game.
Thabsk for the info. I was wondering about playoffs and how the cap works. They could also send Mikheyev down for a conditioning stint.

Yeah if Mikheyev does end up being able to play again this season, a quick stint with the Marlies would probably be the best idea.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 05, 2020, 02:05:32 PM
When totally healthy, that includes Mikheyev, he or Engvall will go to the Marlies. There's no choice because they both make over 900k. In order to keep both in the lineup, Dubas will have to trade someone making Hyman money plus. Doesn't look like we'll have to worry about it this year though. Mikheyev isn't close to playing for a long time and guys keep getting hurt.

Salary cap doesn't apply during the playoffs so if worst came to worst I guess if Mikheyev comes back for the last week or two of the season Engvall could be sent down and then brought back up as soon as they play the final regular season game.
Thanks for the info. I was wondering about playoffs and how the cap works. They could also send Mikheyev down for a conditioning stint.

Yeah if Mikheyev does end up being able to play again this season, a quick stint with the Marlies would probably be the best idea.
It's good to know that we can have both in the playoffs so that'll be really good for us should we make it.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 05, 2020, 03:21:11 PM
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 05, 2020, 03:27:23 PM

I know you all really like the guy but man, I am really not excited about reshuffling a lineup that really seems to be clicking for Johnsson.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 05, 2020, 03:40:12 PM

I know you all really like the guy but man, I am really not excited about reshuffling a lineup that really seems to be clicking for Johnsson.
I'm not excited to move anyone out for Johnsson. I think they should start him on the 3rd/4th line and leave the top 2 alone. I haven't really liked Johnson's game this year and wanted him moved off Matthews' line.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on January 05, 2020, 03:47:16 PM

I know you all really like the guy but man, I am really not excited about reshuffling a lineup that really seems to be clicking for Johnsson.
I'm not excited to move anyone out for Johnsson. I think they should start him on the 3rd/4th line and leave the top 2 alone. I haven't really liked Johnson's game this year and wanted him moved off Matthews' line.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I think what Nik was saying is with the line-up currently clicking so well, he doesn't want to pull someone out of it (or shuffle them around) to make room for Johnsson's return.

I'd agree (if that's what he meant). I like Johnsson but he wasn't so fabulous on Matthews' wing prior to his injury that I'd be chomping at the bit to get him back into that spot. I like your suggestion to ease him back in with some 4th or perhaps 3rd line time. If he's lights out good, sure, let him earn back that plum assignment. He's got to "replace" what Hyman's bringing, though, which is a pretty tough ask.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Bender on January 05, 2020, 04:06:54 PM

I know you all really like the guy but man, I am really not excited about reshuffling a lineup that really seems to be clicking for Johnsson.
I'm feeling exactly the same here.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 05, 2020, 09:49:22 PM
Johnsson slots back in when he's ready.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Timoshov get moved right before then.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 06, 2020, 10:29:19 AM

Running a bit hot against a soft schedule (as we should). We have one of the easier remaining schedules in the league (after two months of insane compression against tough teams).

The trick will be staying patient and continuing to build on this success and find our way to play through and out of adversity.
Title: Re: 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
Post by: disco on January 06, 2020, 10:39:39 AM