I would never try to guess at what the vocally loudest and dumbest section of the fanbase will decide is the right outlet for their droning .
That said, absent a real and significant rift opening up between Babcock and Dubas that would see something big actually change with a new coach I don't see Dubas making that move.
How would we know if there is a rift or not? How do we ever know if they are on the same page or not? If they are both pros - and I think they are - then we should never know.
I'd expect Dubas to pull a "replace an assistant coach" move, maybe even by promoting Keefe, before firing Babcock is even remotely considered.
Who's the PP coach that's the guy we should be talking about. Anyway, no, I don't think Babs goes anywhere regardless of what happens for the remainder of this season.
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year
Well, it was good against NYR... let's hope it starts to go. That zone entry pass to the other team is not working.Who's the PP coach that's the guy we should be talking about. Anyway, no, I don't think Babs goes anywhere regardless of what happens for the remainder of this season.
It's been the same PP assistant coach for every Babcock year + the last few in Detroit, where they've ranked in the top portion of the league each of those years regardless of personnel (other than the Year of the Tank).
IF the Leafs fail to win a playoff round this year do you think Mike Babcock's job is safe?Its not going to happen, unless they lose the following year in the first round as well, then you may see a change. This team is still building by the way. We are one or two forwards away and at least two D men, one of whom is Sandin. Goaltending is good with me.
He will be 4 years into an 8 year deal, so that makes it seem like he should be safe, but what about the other side of the coin?
1. That would be 3 first round losses in a row
2. The players are by and large set for the next few years, and cannot be easily changed to try to shake things up
3. A small point, but worth noting that he was not hired by Dubas
4. The Leafs can afford to pay him to not coach
I am not for a moment advocating for him to be fired. I just wonder if anyone else thinks that attention may turn to him if they do not at least win a round in a couple of months.
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year
Penguins were also out of a playoff spot in February when they made the coaching change.
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year
Sure, but that's probably outweighed by the hundreds of teams who made mid-season changes and didn't win the cup.
IF the Leafs fail to win a playoff round this year do you think Mike Babcock's job is safe?Its not going to happen, unless they lose the following year in the first round as well, then you may see a change. This team is still building by the way. We are one or two forwards away and at least two D men, one of whom is Sandin. Goaltending is good with me.
He will be 4 years into an 8 year deal, so that makes it seem like he should be safe, but what about the other side of the coin?
1. That would be 3 first round losses in a row
2. The players are by and large set for the next few years, and cannot be easily changed to try to shake things up
3. A small point, but worth noting that he was not hired by Dubas
4. The Leafs can afford to pay him to not coach
I am not for a moment advocating for him to be fired. I just wonder if anyone else thinks that attention may turn to him if they do not at least win a round in a couple of months.
Even though I hope Keefe can stay content with the Marlies until either Babcock decides to step down or finishes his contract. I would eventually like to see him take over.
Babcock is not going anywhere. I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.
That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play. The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy. I'm sure Babcock can do it.
My opinion for what it's worth is that playoff performance is more dictated by the roster than it is by the coach. Old school Don Cherry type of teams often fare better. Not always. I just find that Boston has shut us down a bunch of times and we need more grit in order to face them. That's not Babcock's fault at all. And it's kind of impossible for the Leafs to counter at this point. They are built on speed and skill. Lots of young guys. Guys tend to bulk up as they get older. We'll see what happens but I really don't think we can handle Boston in the playoffs (yet). They Leafs *could* beat them, but I personally fear them as a fan. And Tampa just seems so out of this world good this season that I feel that we could easily lose to them also. I wouldn't fault Babcock at all if we lost to either of those teams. A team like Montreal beating us might make me feel differently. But I'm a big fan of Babcock and I think he's got at least another 2-3 seasons of "leash" left in him. Dubas is not going to fire him IMO.Babcock is not going anywhere. I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.
That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play. The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy. I'm sure Babcock can do it.
He wouldn't be here on his full 8 year contract at all costs. What if the Leafs get bounced in round 1 for 5-6 years in a row? Let Babcock use the final 2-3 years to figure it out? What if they miss the playoffs in the next few seasons? Let him ride out the contract for the full 8? You never know what could happen
My opinion for what it's worth is that playoff performance is more dictated by the roster than it is by the coach. Old school Don Cherry type of teams often fare better. Not always. I just find that Boston has shut us down a bunch of times and we need more grit in order to face them. That's not Babcock's fault at all. And it's kind of impossible for the Leafs to counter at this point. They are built on speed and skill. Lots of young guys. Guys tend to bulk up as they get older. We'll see what happens but I really don't think we can handle Boston in the playoffs (yet). They Leafs *could* beat them, but I personally fear them as a fan. And Tampa just seems so out of this world good this season that I feel that we could easily lose to them also. I wouldn't fault Babcock at all if we lost to either of those teams. A team like Montreal beating us might make me feel differently. But I'm a big fan of Babcock and I think he's got at least another 2-3 seasons of "leash" left in him. Dubas is not going to fire him IMO.Babcock is not going anywhere. I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.
That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play. The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy. I'm sure Babcock can do it.
He wouldn't be here on his full 8 year contract at all costs. What if the Leafs get bounced in round 1 for 5-6 years in a row? Let Babcock use the final 2-3 years to figure it out? What if they miss the playoffs in the next few seasons? Let him ride out the contract for the full 8? You never know what could happen
What actually tends to win Stanley Cups is a goalie (or two) on a hot streak and a lot of depth of scoring forwards and minimal injuries.
What actually tends to win Stanley Cups is a goalie (or two) on a hot streak and a lot of depth of scoring forwards and minimal injuries.
Right now I am interested in simply winning a round. That has to happen before they can ever win a cup, and I am not saying that simply to be a smart ass. This team has loads of talent, but there is still a reasonable chance that they cannot make it out of the first round. If that happens for the 3rd year in a row, then yes, they may remain status quo and assume that with another year of progressing with the same players is all that it will take.... but I also think it would be fair to at least be suspicious of another problem if this happens again this year.
As the GM, you can go one of two ways, in that case. You can believe that the team is not built well for the playoffs and look to make changes, or you can believe that the team is under-performing to what they are capable of and then look outside the players.
Even-Strength TOI since Jake Muzzin was acquired
— rahef 🌻 (@rahef_issa) February 20, 2019
I, uh, have a lot of questions. Mainly, how the heck is this possible? pic.twitter.com/MpMOWY2BYJ
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
The only explanation is that Babs is using this time to get Muzzin adjusted to the team/see where he fits best. If he isn't clearly getting top 2/3 ice-time later in March and through the playoffs then yeah I'd seriously question what exactly is going on there.
It's not just that though. Why does he still have Marleau playing with Matthews despite all the evidence that Marleau just isn't working there and actually drives the line results down?
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.A lot of statistical facts about Babcock's deployment of players is troublesome. This is a shocking statistic. Do you think Dubas had this deployment in mind when he acquired Muzzin? Babcock really needs to get out of the teams way and let his best play. I am starting to seriously question his ability. Stack three lines, play the best the most and don't chase matchups when you're so damn deep. If I was Dubas maybe I force the issue by trading one of Brown or Hyman or Gauthier or Hainsey. Who are you going to play now?
Which crossed my mind when I saw this:Even-Strength TOI since Jake Muzzin was acquired
— rahef 🌻 (@rahef_issa) February 20, 2019
I, uh, have a lot of questions. Mainly, how the heck is this possible? pic.twitter.com/MpMOWY2BYJ
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.A lot of statistical facts about Babcock's deployment of players is troublesome. This is a shocking statistic. Do you think Dubas had this deployment in mind when he acquired Muzzin? Babcock really needs to get out of the teams way and let his best play. I am starting to seriously question his ability. Stack three lines, play the best the most and don't chase matchups when you're so damn deep. If I was Dubas maybe I force the issue by trading one of Brown or Hyman or Gauthier or Hainsey. Who are you going to play now?
Which crossed my mind when I saw this:Even-Strength TOI since Jake Muzzin was acquired
— rahef 🌻 (@rahef_issa) February 20, 2019
I, uh, have a lot of questions. Mainly, how the heck is this possible? pic.twitter.com/MpMOWY2BYJ
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.This ice time graphic has seriously pissed me off. No one on the planet can explain this one to me. Babcock, in fact, is having a negative impact on this teams performance.
Which crossed my mind when I saw this:Even-Strength TOI since Jake Muzzin was acquired
— rahef 🌻 (@rahef_issa) February 20, 2019
I, uh, have a lot of questions. Mainly, how the heck is this possible? pic.twitter.com/MpMOWY2BYJ
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:Hahaha...that's gold..Good laugh at your post..thx.
Starting Lineup
Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing
Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.
Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.
Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing
Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.
Lines shuffled again (to late bud)
Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing
Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
He sucked so bad he could pull a golf ball thru garden hoseAnd the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
Randy did suck though
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.This very well maybe the best lineup we’ll ever be able to afford. I don’t know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
Not me. I was just observing that, on the one hand, Dubas has spent valuable assets to bring in a guy for the top pair & to push Hainsey down the line-up and, on the other, the coach seems not to want to use the player there & is keeping Hainsey in the top pair. Maybe that'll change, but, right now, it looks like the GM and coach have pretty different ideas about personnel. At some point, that might be a problem!
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.This very well maybe the best lineup we’ll ever be able to afford. I don’t know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.This very well maybe the best lineup we’ll ever be able to afford. I don’t know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.
We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.
And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.
Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24
How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?
Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.This very well maybe the best lineup we’ll ever be able to afford. I don’t know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.
We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.
And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.
Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24
How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?
Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.This very well maybe the best lineup we’ll ever be able to afford. I don’t know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.
We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.
And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.
Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24
How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?
Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.
It's not about age, It's about the Cap.
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
Not me. I was just observing that, on the one hand, Dubas has spent valuable assets to bring in a guy for the top pair & to push Hainsey down the line-up and, on the other, the coach seems not to want to use the player there & is keeping Hainsey in the top pair. Maybe that'll change, but, right now, it looks like the GM and coach have pretty different ideas about personnel. At some point, that might be a problem!
He doesn't run a static pairing. Rielly and Muzzin received the most ice time in the Washington game.
Is it unreasonable to ease a new acquisition into the system?
I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).
I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.
I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.
It's time for Babcock and his finger pointing and excuses to be run outta town. Firing the assistants is just scapegoating. They do what Babcock instructs them to do.I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).
I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.
I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong. From last night, he slyly mentioned:
"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri
I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things. You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that. How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start? How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes? Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong. From last night, he slyly mentioned:
"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri
I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things. You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that. How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start? How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes? Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong. From last night, he slyly mentioned:
"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri
I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things. You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that. How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start? How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes? Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong. From last night, he slyly mentioned:
"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri
I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things. You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that. How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start? How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes? Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.
I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.
Anyone feeling any differently now?Do you remember is opening day lines?
The knee-jerk reactions against Babcock are strong right now. That aside, I think it might be prudent to put Kefe in place and let him run the team.
- I do not like the way Babcock manages ice time
- I do not think he matches lines - or even mixes lines very well
- He does not appear to be dynamic enough with his game plan - it is as if he is saying "my plan is my plan and that is what we will stick with no matter what
- Sheldon Keefe is a good coach who will be picked up by another team if they do not promote him
- After the same result three years in a row (twice in a row to Boston) they have to do something
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.
I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.
Definitely. I mean you just can't justify his deployment last night. You can't. However if Andersen isn't leaky then it's a 1-1 game. Obviously team D and special teams have been a problem all year but if he deployed his team optimally then he wouldn't be in a position where people are pointing fingers at him. They'd say he deployed the team the best he could and that's that. PK was a problem but I think he'd get more of a pass if the deployment made more sense, but it just doesn't.
I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).
I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.
I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.
I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.
Definitely. I mean you just can't justify his deployment last night. You can't. However if Andersen isn't leaky then it's a 1-1 game. Obviously team D and special teams have been a problem all year but if he deployed his team optimally then he wouldn't be in a position where people are pointing fingers at him. They'd say he deployed the team the best he could and that's that. PK was a problem but I think he'd get more of a pass if the deployment made more sense, but it just doesn't.
And some of that deployment inflexibility extends into the regular season. You have to know what arrows are in the quiver. You have to build up a comfort level with the tools at hand for the times when you might need them. If you preach that every game is a process of learning to do it better each time and building up experience and scars, some of these bench players are going to need actual game time too so that the team as a whole can be better together.
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything won’t change. He is who he is. The leafs aren’t developing the way the should be. How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night? He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?
Seems like you’re suggesting you can’t try new things in the playoffs because you didn’t try them in the regular season, so it’s just better to stick with the status quo and lose.
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:He was worse than my prediction. He made no tweaks what so ever and did not play his best more. Nothing changes, not under his leadership.
Starting Lineup
Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing
Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.
Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.
Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing
Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.
Lines shuffled again (to late bud)
Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing
Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:He was worse than my prediction. He made no tweaks what's so ever and did not play his best more. Nothing changes, not under his leadership.
Starting Lineup
Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing
Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.
Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.
Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing
Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.
Lines shuffled again (to late bud)
Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing
Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too. If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it.
As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round. Waiting another year for that is tough.
And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not. GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too. If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it.
As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round. Waiting another year for that is tough.
And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not. GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.
Yeah, I agree with the point that Dubas needs to ascertain what he believes will be best for the team's success going forward. I'm not entirely sold that means cutting bait on Babcock in reaction to this series. There is so much luck involved in two weeks of play to hinge huge decisions on.
If we're going to blame Babcock and the coaching staff for their shortcomings in game 7, we should give them similar credit for getting the Leafs into this series and taking it as far as it went (they were coached about the same throughout). There were certainly things I would've done differently, but who's to say those would've actually worked better (Matthews-Nylander-Griffith 24 min TOI, baby!!)? Shoot your shot and evaluate what to improve.
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything won’t change. He is who he is. The leafs aren’t developing the way the should be. How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night? He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything won’t change. He is who he is. The leafs aren’t developing the way the should be. How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night? He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?
I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.
Cutting bait on babcock isn’t a reaction to this series. It’s his overall body of work for the leafs. It’s been an underwhelming 4 years.
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything won’t change. He is who he is. The leafs aren’t developing the way the should be. How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night? He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?
I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.
Cutting bait on babcock isn’t a reaction to this series. It’s his overall body of work for the leafs. It’s been an underwhelming 4 years.
Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.
Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie - got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April
Bab's biggest failures were his utilization of Matthews and the crappy special teams. All are in his control and to be very blunt, he shit the bed here. There's way too much talent not to have one of the best PP's in the league. As for the PK, his blind loyalty to guys like Hyman, Hainsey, Zaitsev and whoever else he used on the pk were his downfall. News flash. The PK wasn't good since NOV yet they never changed up the personal or put a better plan in place. That's all on coaching.Cutting bait on babcock isn’t a reaction to this series. It’s his overall body of work for the leafs. It’s been an underwhelming 4 years.
Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.
Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie - got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April
If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go. The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen. Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step. He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.
Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.
Sadly, I can see the same thing. If Dubas and company don't think Babs will adjust, then he needs to go. Pretty simple.Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.
I have no faith that Babcock will learn anything from this failure. I can see us 12 months from now complaining again now Babcock kept rolling 4 lines while down in the 3rd period. Connor Brown baby, I know he can score big goals because he scored against Pittsburgh to get us into the playoffs 4 years ago!
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.
There is simply too much at stake. It’s the best talent in years, maybe more. The window is limited. If Babcock doesn’t give you the best chance, he should be gone. It may also be Dubas’ career if doesn’t work, but he has to take the chance.I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.
Why does even have to come to that? Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys. Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch".
But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night. It's insanity.
Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference. How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.
Why does even have to come to that? Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys. Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch".
But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night. It's insanity.
Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference. How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.
Why does even have to come to that? Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys. Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch".
But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night. It's insanity.
Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference. How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?
I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.
It's true and no it won't. Why would it? 2:19 of ice over 27 shifts that JT had, Matthews had 26, works out to 5 seconds a shift. We also don't know when Babs changed the line or Matthews came off himself. All you need to know is this. Even at JT's number of 21:19, that's still not enough for the 2nd leading goal scorer in the playoffs in an elimination game. Did you see Matthews getting out with the 4th line? How about with Willy? Babs did nothing to try and get him and JT more ice and that's unacceptable. Goat shouldn't have seen the ice in the 3rd. Babs should have been running Matthews, Tavares, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Tavares etc. Add in the fact that he played Marleau over Willy with the goalie pulled. You know Marleau, the guy who had 8 total shots in 7 games. I mean c'mon. Elliot Friedman I think pointed it out. Matthews played a whopping 4 mins of the first 14 in the 3rd period. That again is unacceptable. Time for Dubas to take away Mike's toys again.I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.
Why does even have to come to that? Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys. Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch".
But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night. It's insanity.
Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference. How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?
I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.
Is this true? Did Matthews have as many shifts as those guys, but just went off sooner?
If that's the case, that's going to throw a big stick in the wheel of most of the posting complaining about Matthews' ice time management last night.
Dubas is running the show, he's in charge of the coach. He had the moxie to lure Tavares. I assume he has the cajones to sit down with Mike and tell him where he found his coaching lacking, in season and in the playoffs. It's standard performance review stuff. And Babcock should be able to offer whatever critique he may have of Dubas. But Dubas is his boss, not the other way round.Agree. Dubas is still going to take his toys away tho me thinks lol.
And if you're Dubas you don't say to Babcock, "I want you to play Matthews x minutes a night." That's the coach's decision. But you can say, "I want to see a system out there that results in 34/91/16/29 with x% TOI/60 -- you figure out how to make it happen." You can say, "I want to see us in the top X in the league on the PP, and the top Y in the PK -- you figure out how to make it happen." In other words, you, Dubas, the boss, you set some parameters and let the coach get there. And if he doesn't, then you decide if it's time to move on.
It really felt like Babcock, at a certain point had decided that he’d rather risk losing his way than try winning a different way.
This was a good read.Good article and agree with it all. I've bitched about Babs all year and his insistence of starting the 4th line after a goal. I never liked him doing that and in the end it cost us in game 6 when he started the 4th line after going up 1-0. There's lots of good things about Babs but there's lots of stuff I don't like to and most were mentioned in the article. He needs to change or he needs to go. I think the leash is going to be really short for him next year. What is Sheldon Keefe's contract status for next year?
http://faceoffcircle.ca/2019/04/24/this-years-game-7-was-mike-babcocks-tipping-point/QuoteIt really felt like Babcock, at a certain point had decided that he’d rather risk losing his way than try winning a different way.
If he's willing to a) see that his current way needs an update and b) follow through with adapting, then I still think he can accomplish a lot with the Leafs. Like really good players coming up through junior who've never had to play defense before because no one could stop them, at some point, you hit a ceiling and you either wash out or adapt to thrive.
Why hasn't he already changed? Success is a bit of a blinder, yeah?
If I'm Dubas, when I sit down with the coaching staff, that's the exact conversation I'm having. You guys had a good regular season with reasonable improvement given the circumstances; the next level is going to require not-too significant adjustment.
We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths. The team is strong enough in talent now that you can use the first half to build up your bench and give your vets additional recovery time (screw their pride). This is an easy fix.
We got killed on predictability (again). Players are smart and can handle more than two routes and breakout plays. Let your skill be creative. The horses are already in the stable, so this is an easy enough fix.
Balanced attack and ice time in the regular season is great to keep your workhorses fresh. In crunch time, accordion the bench and stack the percentages in your favour with your best players. Easy fix. you love to win, Babcock? Then play to win, not to not-lose.
We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths.
Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.Even Brian Burke criticized him yesterday on Tim and Sid for some of his decisions. Cassidy outcoached him by a mile. His number 1 line struggles, he moves Pasta. Babs did nothing. He moved guys in and out of the line up, Babs did nothing. It was almost like Babs was just hoping the 3rd and 4th lines wouldn't get scored on and that would be success. Rosen should have been playing instead of Jake who could barely skate out there. Moore would have been an upgrade over Hyman who clearly wasn't getting it done on the forecheck anymore. The list goes on and on of all the obvious bad decisions he made. I really believe there will be some raised voices when Dubas, Shanny and Babs sit down.
Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.Even Brian Burke criticized him yesterday on Tim and Sid for some of his decisions. Cassidy outcoached him by a mile. His number 1 line struggles, he moves Pasta. Babs did nothing. He moved guys in and out of the line up, Babs did nothing. It was almost like Babs was just hoping the 3rd and 4th lines wouldn't get scored on and that would be success. Rosen should have been playing instead of Jake who could barely skate out there. Moore would have been an upgrade over Hyman who clearly wasn't getting it done on the forecheck anymore. The list goes on and on of all the obvious bad decisions he made. I really believe there will be some raised voices when Dubas, Shanny and Babs sit down.
Hard to say really. I think we might have had more depth but our top lines were much stronger this year. There really isn't a top line on that team looking back. Even with JT we were lacking depth at centre because of the Kadri suspension this year. Kadri in moves Willy to the wing and Brown down to the 4th line which in itself is a minus because Ennis and Moore both played better then him. Definitely need an upgrade at the 4th centre spot.We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths.
Is it though? Last year in game 7 against the Bruins our 4th line was JVR-Bozak-Kapanen. And we still had 3 legitimate NHLers in the pressbox in Komarov, Leivo, and Martin.
For sure. Cassidy recognized things weren't working and changed them up fast. He didn't wait. It was like Babs was just hoping the talent would win it and it almost did. This loss could end up being a blessing for the team to move forward especially in coaching philosophy. Team needs better PK and PP. I read that the Bruins were shocked that our PP didn't play more. Funny, even they saw it.Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.Even Brian Burke criticized him yesterday on Tim and Sid for some of his decisions. Cassidy outcoached him by a mile. His number 1 line struggles, he moves Pasta. Babs did nothing. He moved guys in and out of the line up, Babs did nothing. It was almost like Babs was just hoping the 3rd and 4th lines wouldn't get scored on and that would be success. Rosen should have been playing instead of Jake who could barely skate out there. Moore would have been an upgrade over Hyman who clearly wasn't getting it done on the forecheck anymore. The list goes on and on of all the obvious bad decisions he made. I really believe there will be some raised voices when Dubas, Shanny and Babs sit down.
Cassidy seemed like the desperate coach trying everything to win, as if his job was on the line and he'd never won a round before. All those changes he did game in game out like you mentioned, and Babcock basically stuck to the same formula he followed all season. It was just such a stark contrast in coaching philosophy
Hard to say really. I think we might have had more depth but our top lines were much stronger this year. There really isn't a top line on that team looking back. Even with JT we were lacking depth at centre because of the Kadri suspension this year. Kadri in moves Willy to the wing and Brown down to the 4th line which in itself is a minus because Ennis and Moore both played better then him. Definitely need an upgrade at the 4th centre spot.
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
It just shows he's a stand up guy, unlike our coach who deflects.Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Dubas taking responsibility for all that is kind of ridiculous. He's not playing, he's not drawing up the plays. He gets personnel and I don't think personnel really was the main glaring problem in this series.
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.
It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
I'd like to be pissed off making what he makes playing the game he loves and never having to worry about money again. I understand his competitive nature but while Babs is the coach he makes the calls.Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.
It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
I'd like to be pissed off making what he makes playing the game he loves and never having to worry about money again. I understand his competitive nature but while Babs is the coach he makes the calls.Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.
It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
If the don't make it past round 1 next year, then Babs will go. I would sh_t a brick if Babs was fired now. Yes I would like to see Keefe at some point but we have to let it ride with a new look D.
Babs answers are troubling to me. Like I said. The players apologized, Nylander, Kadri and others. Dubas apologizes yet Babs thinks or talks like he did everything right. I don't think he'll change and that's why I'd get rid of him. This series is on him. I really loved the They adjusted, we adjusted, they adjusted, we adjusted line. Wtf are you talking about Mike? You didn't adjust to anything.I'd like to be pissed off making what he makes playing the game he loves and never having to worry about money again. I understand his competitive nature but while Babs is the coach he makes the calls.Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.
It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
If the don't make it past round 1 next year, then Babs will go. I would sh_t a brick if Babs was fired now. Yes I would like to see Keefe at some point but we have to let it ride with a new look D.
Based on Babcock's answers today what faith have you that he would do anything differently next season? His answer to everything is "we need better players". Sorry Babs but you're not assembling a team Canada worthy roster with the salary cap, it's time to actually coach the roster you have and get the most out of it. That means playing your best players more and in situations where it's warranted.
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/Dubas is a Gud pro. He won't say publicly what he thinks. He's a smart guy that I'm sure is not overly happy with the coaching staff. We will see what he does but I trust in Dubie.
Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/Dubas is a Gud pro. He won't say publicly what he thinks. He's a smart guy that I'm sure is not overly happy with the coaching staff. We will see what he does but I trust in Dubie.
Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
Absolutely. He has to know he's under the gun if he's back.https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/Dubas is a Gud pro. He won't say publicly what he thinks. He's a smart guy that I'm sure is not overly happy with the coaching staff. We will see what he does but I trust in Dubie.
Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
Based on Dubas's answer with regards to Shanahan I think he indirectly was saying he can't fire Babcock without Shanahan signing off which makes sense given that Shanny hired Babs. I also think that if it doesn't happen now it will next season if the Leafs don't improve on this performance. Babcock would know this so he's under the gun.
Here are those "controversial" comments about the team's depth by Mike Babcock. This market needs to get a grip sometimes and it'd be great if full quotes were shared in context more often.
— Maple Leafs Hotstove (@LeafsNews) April 25, 2019
Full transcript: https://t.co/tnPuYrIwfB #LeafsForever pic.twitter.com/cD8qM1FmQv
Here are those "controversial" comments about the team's depth by Mike Babcock. This market needs to get a grip sometimes and it'd be great if full quotes were shared in context more often.
— Maple Leafs Hotstove (@LeafsNews) April 25, 2019
Full transcript: https://t.co/tnPuYrIwfB #LeafsForever pic.twitter.com/cD8qM1FmQv
Why waste another year? It's obvious this coach can't change.
The organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. He’s not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. He’s got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but he’s not.
But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when it’s necessary.
Matthews quote = Bab's firedDubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.
It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/QuoteThe organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. He’s not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. He’s got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but he’s not.
But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when it’s necessary.
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/It took him two playoff game losses to bench Komarov last year. Johnsson wasn't even dressed game 1.QuoteThe organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. He’s not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. He’s got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but he’s not.
But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when it’s necessary.
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/QuoteThe organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. He’s not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. He’s got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but he’s not.
But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when it’s necessary.
That is a good read and seems like the rational way of thinking. But darn it man.... I am a fan and have been for a very very long time. The Leafs have a window here where they can shoot for a Cup and I cannot fight away the feeling in me that Babcock cannot and will not get it done. Sheldon Keefe won a championship last year and is now over achieving this year in the playoffs. If Babcock stays then so be it, but if Dubas wants to go with Keefe I could get into that.
Maybe Keefe comes up as an assistant?
I don't see that working with Babcock. Everyone would know that Keefe is the heir apparent right next to Babcock and I doubt Mike would want that. He'd be second guessing everything Keefe suggests and probably overriding him on any decision just because he can. It's either Keefe takes over or he stays with the Marlies.
I don't see that working with Babcock. Everyone would know that Keefe is the heir apparent right next to Babcock and I doubt Mike would want that. He'd be second guessing everything Keefe suggests and probably overriding him on any decision just because he can. It's either Keefe takes over or he stays with the Marlies.
That's contemptible; both Babcock possibly doing that and your suggestion that he would.
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.
This is a line of criticism I honestly don't get. For starters, who even cares? I mean Dubas is jumping on all these grenades and we're sitting here knowing that it's all just media rhetoric to him. Not a single person heard him say it's his fault the PK struggled and thought "oh yeah that's right". Babcock just talks to the media in a different way, but it's not like he's ever been Ron Wilson-arrogant where he's constantly throwing his players under the bus or anything. Like you said, he's generally always trying to put a positive spin on things when talking to the media.
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.
This is a line of criticism I honestly don't get. For starters, who even cares? I mean Dubas is jumping on all these grenades and we're sitting here knowing that it's all just media rhetoric to him. Not a single person heard him say it's his fault the PK struggled and thought "oh yeah that's right". Babcock just talks to the media in a different way, but it's not like he's ever been Ron Wilson-arrogant where he's constantly throwing his players under the bus or anything. Like you said, he's generally always trying to put a positive spin on things when talking to the media.
Confirmation bias
Here's just one example of him taking the blame for something (admittedly a smaller thing):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4lSosWXOKo
"It's all my fault, let's not kid ourselves." ~ Babcock
He praises his players often.
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.
Here's just one example of him taking the blame for something (admittedly a smaller thing):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4lSosWXOKo
"It's all my fault, let's not kid ourselves." ~ Babcock
He praises his players often.
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.
Great, you found one example from literally 2 years ago.
Don Sweeney on Bruce Cassidy: "He has a good feel for what players are going well and what the game needs at particular times." Coaching made a difference vs. Toronto. https://t.co/cWE7ewprxh
— Fluto Shinzawa (@FlutoShinzawa) April 24, 2019
Here are those "controversial" comments about the team's depth by Mike Babcock. This market needs to get a grip sometimes and it'd be great if full quotes were shared in context more often.
— Maple Leafs Hotstove (@LeafsNews) April 25, 2019
Full transcript: https://t.co/tnPuYrIwfB #LeafsForever pic.twitter.com/cD8qM1FmQv
Here are those "controversial" comments about the team's depth by Mike Babcock. This market needs to get a grip sometimes and it'd be great if full quotes were shared in context more often.
— Maple Leafs Hotstove (@LeafsNews) April 25, 2019
Full transcript: https://t.co/tnPuYrIwfB #LeafsForever pic.twitter.com/cD8qM1FmQv
How does anyone in their right mind have a problem with those comments?
To clarify a discussion yesterday on PTS, Multiple sources have confirmed that Kyle Dubas has the authority as GM to dismiss Mike Babcock. He does not need board approval.
— John Shannon (@JSportsnet) April 27, 2019
I think I’ll give Dubas the benefit of the doubt for what happened this season and in the playoffs. There are only a handful of current Leaf players with his fingerprints on, and Babcock was not his hire either.The window is in 2 years and will open up for a few years at that time. If Dubas is smart he will parlay some assets for a bit of a mini on the fly rebuild next season. I think the Leafs will be a playoff team next season regardless which will be fun, and anything can happen as Columbus has shown us this season. I just hope Dubas doesn't make another run at it at the trade deadline next season. The Leafs would be completely stacked right now if they had traded JVR and Gardiner the past two trade deadlines while also refraining from using picks/prospects to acquire assets prematurely.
EDIT: he’s only brought in 3 new players during his first year as GM. Tavares, Muzzin and Ennis, and all 3 looked good this season and even better in the playoffs.
This off season should be telling about what we might see under his direction. I’d be super surprised if he doesn’t make one or two bold moves to tweak the bottom half of the lineup and the defence.
Unlike many on this board , I don’t think we are as far off as some of you think. Sprinkle in a few more defensive minded players to the mix we should see the Leafs take it to the next level next season.
But, clearly the honeymoon is over for Dubas . Time is now to prove to Shanny and Leaf Nation you were the right choice for the job
I just hope Dubas doesn't make another run at it at the trade deadline next season. The Leafs would be completely stacked right now if they had traded JVR and Gardiner the past two trade deadlines while also refraining from using picks/prospects to acquire assets prematurely.Dubas didn't make a run this year at the TD. He got Petan. If you're referring to the Muzz deal I wouldn't classify that as a run. It was an area of need and he made a trade and while he used assets to acquire him, it was a very good trade. As for Gardiner, he wasn't getting you much at the deadline and JVR, Bozak and Leo were on Lou.
... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
Yup. Only way he goes is if it's for a quality RD coming back.... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.
... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.
I think he scores 30 next year with Matthews. He has something to prove.... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.
Bullfrog is right Willie N is not going anywhere soon or ever.
I've been thinking about this a bit since Tuesday and I think I'm not far off the mark when I say that Babcock's PK decisions in Game 6 were the turning point in the series.Agree on all accounts. And game 6 downfall started with his playing the 4th line after a goal crap. And your winger taking the draw is playing on 1 leg!
I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP. At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck. You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP. If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine. You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.
And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP. Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."
The more I think about that the more it burns me.
Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series. But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.
I've been thinking about this a bit since Tuesday and I think I'm not far off the mark when I say that Babcock's PK decisions in Game 6 were the turning point in the series.
I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP. At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck. You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP. If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine. You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.
And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP. Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."
The more I think about that the more it burns me.
Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series. But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league. The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent. If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired. Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason. They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league. The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent. If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired. Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason. They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.
Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again. You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league. The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent. If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired. Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason. They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.
Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again. You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league. The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent. If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired. Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason. They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.
Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again. You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down
I think, if that happens, and the team is exhibiting the same process-related issues that bedeviled them over the last two years, Dubas might move on from Babcock mid-season. And, obviously, if he loses a third year in a row, he's gone.
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league. The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent. If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired. Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason. They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.
Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again. You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down
Chara already has, considerably. Krejci too, but not as much. Bergeron, on the other hand, is still potent as ever.
Speculation on the radio was that Dubas maybe waiting for the Marlies season to end to promote Keefe to the big club.Good. Word is his contract is up this year. I don't think the Leafs can afford to lose him. Let him run the pp or pk.