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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: Michael on February 11, 2019, 03:06:38 PM

Title: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on February 11, 2019, 03:06:38 PM
IF the Leafs fail to win a playoff round this year do you think Mike Babcock's job is safe?

He will be 4 years into an 8 year deal, so that makes it seem like he should be safe, but what about the other side of the coin?

1. That would be 3 first round losses in a row
2. The players are by and large set for the next few years, and cannot be easily changed to try to shake things up
3. A small point, but worth noting that he was not hired by Dubas
4. The Leafs can afford to pay him to not coach

I am not for a moment advocating for him to be fired. I just wonder if anyone else thinks that attention may turn to him if they do not at least win a round in a couple of months.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 11, 2019, 03:10:31 PM

I would never try to guess at what the vocally loudest and dumbest section of the fanbase will decide is the right outlet for their droning .

That said, absent a real and significant rift opening up between Babcock and Dubas that would see something big actually change with a new coach I don't see Dubas making that move.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on February 11, 2019, 03:14:09 PM
I would never try to guess at what the vocally loudest and dumbest section of the fanbase will decide is the right outlet for their droning .

I am not interested in guessing what the fanbase will be thinking if they retire early this year, but I can likely assume. I was only wondering if that is something that anyone here thinks might actually happen?

That said, absent a real and significant rift opening up between Babcock and Dubas that would see something big actually change with a new coach I don't see Dubas making that move.

How would we know if there is a rift or not? How do we ever know if they are on the same page or not? If they are both pros - and I think they are - then we should never know.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 11, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
How would we know if there is a rift or not? How do we ever know if they are on the same page or not? If they are both pros - and I think they are - then we should never know.

I guess we'd know if Babcock gets fired or not. I'm saying that unless Dubas has an actual tactical issue that he thinks firing Babcock will fix, I don't think he'll fire Babcock just because he has the bad luck to be in a tough division and wants to see if firing him will yield better results just by "shaking things up".
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 11, 2019, 03:21:16 PM
I'd expect Dubas to pull a "replace an assistant coach" move, maybe even by promoting Keefe, before firing Babcock is even remotely considered.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Peter D. on February 11, 2019, 03:49:36 PM
Just don't see it.  Not to mention, save for Quenneville, there isn't a coach out there I would think is an upgrade.

It would suck if they bowed out again in the first round, but the team is still so young and growing, and it's not overnight that playoff success can be come by.  Maybe after Year 6 if the team looks like it has stagnated, but not now.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on February 11, 2019, 04:19:58 PM
From my perspective, measuring a coach or team solely on playoff rounds won is unwise.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: bustaheims on February 11, 2019, 04:21:00 PM
I'd expect Dubas to pull a "replace an assistant coach" move, maybe even by promoting Keefe, before firing Babcock is even remotely considered.

Yeah. It would take a real monumental failure for Babcock to be let go this summer. After next season, if there hasn't been some playoff success, Dubas might start thinking about a coaching change.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 11, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
Who's the PP coach that's the guy we should be talking about. Anyway, no, I don't think Babs goes anywhere regardless of what happens for the remainder of this season.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Arn on February 11, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on February 11, 2019, 04:46:21 PM
Who's the PP coach that's the guy we should be talking about. Anyway, no, I don't think Babs goes anywhere regardless of what happens for the remainder of this season.

It's been the same PP assistant coach for every Babcock year + the last few in Detroit, where they've ranked in the top portion of the league each of those years regardless of personnel (other than the Year of the Tank).
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Rob on February 11, 2019, 04:50:05 PM
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year

Penguins were also out of a playoff spot in February when they made the coaching change. 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 11, 2019, 04:58:20 PM
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year

Sure, but that's probably outweighed by the hundreds of teams who made mid-season changes and didn't win the cup.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 11, 2019, 05:05:34 PM
Dubas may be GM but he isn't firing Babcock without getting Shanahan on board first.  And therefore I don't think there's even the remotest chance he gets fired this season, even if they missed the playoffs entirely.

I think he's here for the whole term.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 11, 2019, 05:07:03 PM
Who's the PP coach that's the guy we should be talking about. Anyway, no, I don't think Babs goes anywhere regardless of what happens for the remainder of this season.

It's been the same PP assistant coach for every Babcock year + the last few in Detroit, where they've ranked in the top portion of the league each of those years regardless of personnel (other than the Year of the Tank).
Well, it was good against NYR... let's hope it starts to go. That zone entry pass to the other team is not working.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Highlander on February 11, 2019, 06:55:08 PM
IF the Leafs fail to win a playoff round this year do you think Mike Babcock's job is safe?

He will be 4 years into an 8 year deal, so that makes it seem like he should be safe, but what about the other side of the coin?

1. That would be 3 first round losses in a row
2. The players are by and large set for the next few years, and cannot be easily changed to try to shake things up
3. A small point, but worth noting that he was not hired by Dubas
4. The Leafs can afford to pay him to not coach

I am not for a moment advocating for him to be fired. I just wonder if anyone else thinks that attention may turn to him if they do not at least win a round in a couple of months.
Its not going to happen, unless they lose the following year in the first round as well, then you may see a change. This team is still building by the way.  We are one or two forwards away and at least  two D men, one of whom is Sandin. Goaltending is good with me.   
Even though I hope Keefe can stay content with the Marlies until either Babcock decides to step down or finishes his contract.  I would eventually like to see him take over.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 11, 2019, 09:54:50 PM
If Keefe is as good as some think, he won't be hear when Babs is replaced.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Arn on February 12, 2019, 07:00:32 AM
Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year

Penguins were also out of a playoff spot in February when they made the coaching change.

Didn't the Penguins make an unexpected change in the season they ended up winning the Cup? When Bylsma came in I think it was after they'd been in the finals the previous year

Sure, but that's probably outweighed by the hundreds of teams who made mid-season changes and didn't win the cup.

Yeah, I didn't realise they were going so badly the season Therrien was actually sacked. Was more wondering about the issue of sacking someone who had taken them much closer to a cup very recently and thus it being a surprise like sacking Babcock probably would be.

Interestingly on further investigation his last game was a 6-2 loss to the Leafs that the Pens had gone into the 3rd period 2-1 up
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 12, 2019, 08:06:33 AM
IF the Leafs fail to win a playoff round this year do you think Mike Babcock's job is safe?

He will be 4 years into an 8 year deal, so that makes it seem like he should be safe, but what about the other side of the coin?

1. That would be 3 first round losses in a row
2. The players are by and large set for the next few years, and cannot be easily changed to try to shake things up
3. A small point, but worth noting that he was not hired by Dubas
4. The Leafs can afford to pay him to not coach

I am not for a moment advocating for him to be fired. I just wonder if anyone else thinks that attention may turn to him if they do not at least win a round in a couple of months.
Its not going to happen, unless they lose the following year in the first round as well, then you may see a change. This team is still building by the way.  We are one or two forwards away and at least  two D men, one of whom is Sandin. Goaltending is good with me.   
Even though I hope Keefe can stay content with the Marlies until either Babcock decides to step down or finishes his contract.  I would eventually like to see him take over.

I agree it's premature to think about canning Babcock after this season, but make no mistake, if the Leafs get bounced in the first round again, and they look terrible, questions will start to be asked.  You can't have a supposedly talented team as the Leafs constantly getting outplayed in the first round of the playoffs and not point to the coach eventually.  Examples have been brought up of teams canning coaches late in the season and winning Cups...Pittsburgh twice, and I believe Jersey as well.  Those teams were all good teams who were underachieving according to expectations, as opposed to the tons of teams that fire coaches who are just bad like the Oilers, Ducks this year.  Anyway, hopefully it doesn't come to that and the Leafs make noise in this year's playoffs.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on February 12, 2019, 08:51:46 AM
Zero chance he gets canned, even if they're swept in the first round. The media will discuss it, but I doubt Dubas even considers it.

They're 3rd in league points percentage. How about he starts getting credit for what he's clearly contributed to?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on February 12, 2019, 09:39:16 AM
My thought on this is that windows of opportunity are short these days in the NHL. If the Leafs think they have the right group on the ice but cannot win even a round, then it is natural that other changes would be considered.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2019, 09:47:18 AM
I don't really think the past two 1st round exits will factor into anything. The "Tavares Era" Leafs will probably get at least 3 shots at it before serious change is considered, with serious change being one or a combination of the following: coach change, GM change, trade of a core player
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: sickbeast on February 12, 2019, 01:10:22 PM
Babcock is not going anywhere.  I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.

That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play.  The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy.  I'm sure Babcock can do it.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 12, 2019, 02:22:50 PM
Babcock is not going anywhere.  I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.

That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play.  The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy.  I'm sure Babcock can do it.

He wouldn't be here on his full 8 year contract at all costs.  What if the Leafs get bounced in round 1 for 5-6 years in a row?  Let Babcock use the final 2-3 years to figure it out?  What if they miss the playoffs in the next few seasons?  Let him ride out the contract for the full 8?   You never know what could happen
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: sickbeast on February 12, 2019, 03:06:32 PM
Babcock is not going anywhere.  I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.

That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play.  The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy.  I'm sure Babcock can do it.

He wouldn't be here on his full 8 year contract at all costs.  What if the Leafs get bounced in round 1 for 5-6 years in a row?  Let Babcock use the final 2-3 years to figure it out?  What if they miss the playoffs in the next few seasons?  Let him ride out the contract for the full 8?   You never know what could happen
My opinion for what it's worth is that playoff performance is more dictated by the roster than it is by the coach.  Old school Don Cherry type of teams often fare better.  Not always.  I just find that Boston has shut us down a bunch of times and we need more grit in order to face them.  That's not Babcock's fault at all.  And it's kind of impossible for the Leafs to counter at this point.  They are built on speed and skill.  Lots of young guys.  Guys tend to bulk up as they get older.  We'll see what happens but I really don't think we can handle Boston in the playoffs (yet).  They Leafs *could* beat them, but I personally fear them as a fan.  And Tampa just seems so out of this world good this season that I feel that we could easily lose to them also.  I wouldn't fault Babcock at all if we lost to either of those teams.  A team like Montreal beating us might make me feel differently.  But I'm a big fan of Babcock and I think he's got at least another 2-3 seasons of "leash" left in him.  Dubas is not going to fire him IMO.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 12, 2019, 03:11:01 PM
Babcock is not going anywhere.  I would be shocked if he's not here for his full 8 year contract.

That being said, he needs to do something to fix the power play.  The Leafs need some kind of coaching wizardry because it appears that the opposing teams have decrypted and adapted to their strategy.  I'm sure Babcock can do it.

He wouldn't be here on his full 8 year contract at all costs.  What if the Leafs get bounced in round 1 for 5-6 years in a row?  Let Babcock use the final 2-3 years to figure it out?  What if they miss the playoffs in the next few seasons?  Let him ride out the contract for the full 8?   You never know what could happen
My opinion for what it's worth is that playoff performance is more dictated by the roster than it is by the coach.  Old school Don Cherry type of teams often fare better.  Not always.  I just find that Boston has shut us down a bunch of times and we need more grit in order to face them.  That's not Babcock's fault at all.  And it's kind of impossible for the Leafs to counter at this point.  They are built on speed and skill.  Lots of young guys.  Guys tend to bulk up as they get older.  We'll see what happens but I really don't think we can handle Boston in the playoffs (yet).  They Leafs *could* beat them, but I personally fear them as a fan.  And Tampa just seems so out of this world good this season that I feel that we could easily lose to them also.  I wouldn't fault Babcock at all if we lost to either of those teams.  A team like Montreal beating us might make me feel differently.  But I'm a big fan of Babcock and I think he's got at least another 2-3 seasons of "leash" left in him.  Dubas is not going to fire him IMO.

I disagree on them not being able to handle Boston.  They came out in games 1 and 2 like a deer in the headlines and were totally not prepared to play.  Then Kadri gets the suspension which hurt the Leafs chances.   After the first 2 games, Leafs actually won 3 of 5 games and were leading in game 7 in the 3rd period, so they're more than capable of beating the Bruins if they're on top of their game.  They have to be prepared from the start of game 1, their powerplay has to be eons better than it is right now, and the goaltending has to be solid.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on February 12, 2019, 03:31:33 PM
What actually tends to win Stanley Cups is a goalie (or two) on a hot streak and a lot of depth of scoring forwards and minimal injuries.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on February 12, 2019, 03:56:10 PM
What actually tends to win Stanley Cups is a goalie (or two) on a hot streak and a lot of depth of scoring forwards and minimal injuries.

Right now I am interested in simply winning a round. That has to happen before they can ever win a cup, and I am not saying that simply to be a smart ass. This team has loads of talent, but there is still a reasonable chance that they cannot make it out of the first round. If that happens for the 3rd year in a row, then yes, they may remain status quo and assume that with another year of progressing with the same players is all that it will take.... but I also think it would be fair to at least be suspicious of another problem if this happens again this year.

As the GM, you can go one of two ways, in that case. You can believe that the team is not built well for the playoffs and look to make changes, or you can believe that the team is under-performing to what they are capable of and then look outside the players.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 12, 2019, 04:55:37 PM
What actually tends to win Stanley Cups is a goalie (or two) on a hot streak and a lot of depth of scoring forwards and minimal injuries.

Right now I am interested in simply winning a round. That has to happen before they can ever win a cup, and I am not saying that simply to be a smart ass. This team has loads of talent, but there is still a reasonable chance that they cannot make it out of the first round. If that happens for the 3rd year in a row, then yes, they may remain status quo and assume that with another year of progressing with the same players is all that it will take.... but I also think it would be fair to at least be suspicious of another problem if this happens again this year.

As the GM, you can go one of two ways, in that case. You can believe that the team is not built well for the playoffs and look to make changes, or you can believe that the team is under-performing to what they are capable of and then look outside the players.

They could easily play well and still lose in the first roundóparity.  If they got blown out ... then I'd be pretty concerned.  But as I said earlier in this thread, Babcock's job is as safe as a coach's can be.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on February 12, 2019, 07:49:51 PM
It's all about the unemotional assessment of effort, execution, and luck effects, not knee jerk reactions to results. The Capitals nearly lost to the Blue Jackets in round one last year due to a crossbar in overtime.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: mr grieves on February 21, 2019, 12:50:28 PM
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.

Which crossed my mind when I saw this:


The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?

Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 21, 2019, 01:06:02 PM
I mean, Dubas has talked about inefficiencies and maximizing the talent and players you have.  It was pretty obviously a Dubas move to have Sparks and Holl on the roster, and look how Babcock has handled Holl.  Didn't even bother to try and find out if he could play, and now that he's sat out the entire season you can't play him at all.

Then, Dubas gets Muzzin to try and get a better top pairing, and take minutes away from Hainsey, so Babcock tries it out for 4-5 games and then goes back to Rielly-Hainsey and playing Hainsey huge minutes.

So I think there's a disconnect between what Dubas sees as an optimal lineup/strategy and what Babcock sees.  How long does a GM put up with a coach who goes against everything he's trying to accomplish?  If Babcock ultimately wins than Dubas can live with it.  If the Leafs get trounced in the first round again, and you still have guys like Hainsey and to a lesser extent Marleau playing out of their best roles, who do you blame?   
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 21, 2019, 01:28:17 PM
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?

The only explanation is that Babs is using this time to get Muzzin adjusted to the team/see where he fits best. If he isn't clearly getting top 2/3 ice-time later in March and through the playoffs then yeah I'd seriously question what exactly is going on there.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 21, 2019, 01:31:57 PM
The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?

The only explanation is that Babs is using this time to get Muzzin adjusted to the team/see where he fits best. If he isn't clearly getting top 2/3 ice-time later in March and through the playoffs then yeah I'd seriously question what exactly is going on there.

It's not just that though.   Why does he still have Marleau playing with Matthews despite all the evidence that Marleau just isn't working there and actually drives the line results down?
Why does he not play Matthews more minutes in games despite the fact Matthews is the premier scoring center in the league?  There's a lot of whys with Babcock's decisions and never really any good answers from him.   As a GM, if your coach isn't on the same page with you, and constantly does things that are counter productive to how you view the team's roster and ability you're going to have to make a tough decision at some point.  Like I said, if it all works out and Babcock gets them to a long playoff run this season then he can proven right in his decisions, if not...
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 21, 2019, 01:34:32 PM
It's not just that though.   Why does he still have Marleau playing with Matthews despite all the evidence that Marleau just isn't working there and actually drives the line results down?

Well I was specifically commenting on a post about Muzzin so it was just that. But yes, Marleau's usage is also a (separate) issue. One that I don't have an explanation for.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 21, 2019, 01:36:58 PM
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.

Which crossed my mind when I saw this:


The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
A lot of statistical facts about Babcock's deployment of players is troublesome. This is a shocking statistic. Do you think Dubas had this deployment in mind when he acquired Muzzin? Babcock really needs to get out of the teams way and let his best play. I am starting to seriously question his ability. Stack three lines, play the best the most and don't chase matchups when you're so damn deep. If I was Dubas maybe I force the issue by trading one of Brown or Hyman or Gauthier or Hainsey. Who are you going to play now?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 21, 2019, 01:39:55 PM
Dubas sure as hell didn't hire Babcock either.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 21, 2019, 01:42:41 PM
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.

Which crossed my mind when I saw this:


The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
A lot of statistical facts about Babcock's deployment of players is troublesome. This is a shocking statistic. Do you think Dubas had this deployment in mind when he acquired Muzzin? Babcock really needs to get out of the teams way and let his best play. I am starting to seriously question his ability. Stack three lines, play the best the most and don't chase matchups when you're so damn deep. If I was Dubas maybe I force the issue by trading one of Brown or Hyman or Gauthier or Hainsey. Who are you going to play now?

I mean, ultimately the coach has to answer to the GM.  It's not even a matter of Dubas having to take Babcock's "toys" away.  What does it say about a coach if you talk to him behind the scenes, give him your idea and vision about how the team should play, and he just ignores everything you've told him and does it his way?  I'm sure Dubas and Babcock have daily conversations about the state of the team, the deployment of players etc.  If Babcock keeps insisting he's the coach and his way will work, then he's responsible if it doesn't work.   People keep thinking Babcock is untouchable because he has 4 years left on his contract, I don't buy that for one minute.  If Dubas feels a change is needed he'll make that call, and then he's the one on the hot seat going forward.   Both Dubas and Babcock are strong in their convictions, but one of them is the boss.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 21, 2019, 01:46:21 PM
IF the relationship between the progressive, experimental GM and his less progressive, more stubborn coach deteriorates, I can see Dubas, at some point, doing what he did in the Soo, finding a coach with buy-in. Not this year, of course, but maybe next.

Which crossed my mind when I saw this:


The heck is this about? Muzzin is, pretty obviously, a lot better than Hainsey and Zaitsev, and yet he's not seeing icetime that reflects that. Is Babcock pressuring his GM to make another D acquisition, one who better fits his handedness preferences? Is he daring Dubas to Billy Beane him?
This ice time graphic has seriously pissed me off. No one on the planet can explain this one to me. Babcock, in fact, is having a negative impact on this teams performance.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 21, 2019, 02:07:28 PM
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:

Starting Lineup

Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing

Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.

Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing

Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.

Lines shuffled again (to late bud)

Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing

Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.

Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 21, 2019, 02:28:53 PM
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:

Starting Lineup

Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing

Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.

Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing

Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.

Lines shuffled again (to late bud)

Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing

Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.


Hahaha...that's gold..Good laugh at your post..thx.
As for the ice-time thing, Dubas will end up taking his toys away again either by trade deadline or over the summer. I can see him trading both Brown and Hyman away. Hyman is good and all but his lack of offence doesn't justify his contract. Same with Brown. We have 2 guys, may cost a little more, to replace them in Kappy and Johnsson and our 4th line will have Moore and a Marchment(pick em Marlie). Hainsey's contract is done so I don't see them bringing him back. I think he'll try to move Zaitsev also.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 21, 2019, 04:44:47 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on February 21, 2019, 05:45:14 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.


Randy did suck though
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: mr grieves on February 21, 2019, 06:29:43 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.

Not me. I was just observing that, on the one hand, Dubas has spent valuable assets to bring in a guy for the top pair & to push Hainsey down the line-up and, on the other, the coach seems not to want to use the player there & is keeping Hainsey in the top pair. Maybe that'll change, but, right now, it looks like the GM and coach have pretty different ideas about personnel. At some point, that might be a problem!
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bates on February 21, 2019, 06:47:39 PM
I've been bothered for awhile that Babcock seems to want too much to be the guy who makes it happen rather than just a part of the success. Some things are as obvious as the nose on your face to everyone but Babcock.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Highlander on February 21, 2019, 07:20:17 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.


Randy did suck though
He sucked so bad he could pull a golf ball thru garden hose
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on February 21, 2019, 08:53:34 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
This very well maybe the best lineup weíll ever be able to afford. I donít know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 23, 2019, 07:49:58 AM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.

Not me. I was just observing that, on the one hand, Dubas has spent valuable assets to bring in a guy for the top pair & to push Hainsey down the line-up and, on the other, the coach seems not to want to use the player there & is keeping Hainsey in the top pair. Maybe that'll change, but, right now, it looks like the GM and coach have pretty different ideas about personnel. At some point, that might be a problem!

He doesn't run a static pairing. Rielly and Muzzin received the most ice time in the Washington game.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 23, 2019, 07:59:07 AM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
This very well maybe the best lineup weíll ever be able to afford. I donít know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.

We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.

And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.

Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24

How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?

Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bates on February 23, 2019, 09:51:24 AM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
This very well maybe the best lineup weíll ever be able to afford. I donít know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.

We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.

And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.

Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24

How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?

Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.

It's not about age, It's about the Cap.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: princedpw on February 23, 2019, 10:35:24 AM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
This very well maybe the best lineup weíll ever be able to afford. I donít know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.

We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.

And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.

Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24

How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?

Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.

+1

Iím pretty happy with how things are going
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 23, 2019, 05:01:43 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.
This very well maybe the best lineup weíll ever be able to afford. I donít know why people are being so damn patient. Giving your best players good line mates and ice time is quite simple. Can someone let Babs know Maltby and Draper retired, the game has changed.

We're fans. We have no choice but to let it unfold in front of us.

And this nonsense about it being the best line up we can afford makes no sense.

Mitch Marner is 21
Auston Matthews is 21
William Nylander is 22
Kasperi Kapanen is 22
Andreas Johnsson is 24
Morgan Rielly is 24

How do we come on here and assume that our team next year will be worse because of the losses of a handful of bottom 6 players and a couple defensemen?
Does that not assume that all 6 of those above players have peaked already?
Our top 3 forwards are 21, 21 and 22. Do we not think they will get better?
Our top Defense is 24. Do we not see the progression of this player?

Patience is the thing we need most. Our core is 22 and younger. Our supporting cast is 25 and younger.

It's not about age, It's about the Cap.

Elaborate please. The players I listed above will all be here next season(with maybe the exception of Kapanen or Johnsson)....so, again, how do they get worse when all those players are a year older, with a year more experience?

I mean the team should get automatically better when they fire Babcock next month.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: mr grieves on February 24, 2019, 07:11:35 PM
And the "coach sucks" brigade is out in full force today. It feels like Randy all over again.

Not me. I was just observing that, on the one hand, Dubas has spent valuable assets to bring in a guy for the top pair & to push Hainsey down the line-up and, on the other, the coach seems not to want to use the player there & is keeping Hainsey in the top pair. Maybe that'll change, but, right now, it looks like the GM and coach have pretty different ideas about personnel. At some point, that might be a problem!

He doesn't run a static pairing. Rielly and Muzzin received the most ice time in the Washington game.

A positive, and pretty recent, development.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on February 24, 2019, 07:38:00 PM
Is it unreasonable to ease a new acquisition into the system?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 24, 2019, 08:06:14 PM
Is it unreasonable to ease a new acquisition into the system?

No kidding.

Here's a new piece of electronics. I expect you to know everything about it the first time you pick it up.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on April 24, 2019, 09:21:15 AM
Anyone feeling any differently now?

The knee-jerk reactions against Babcock are strong right now. That aside, I think it might be prudent to put Kefe in place and let him run the team.

- I do not like the way Babcock manages ice time
- I do not think he matches lines - or even mixes lines very well
- He does not appear to be dynamic enough with his game plan - it is as if he is saying "my plan is my plan and that is what we will stick with no matter what
- Sheldon Keefe is a good coach who will be picked up by another team if they do not promote him
- After the same result three years in a row (twice in a row to Boston) they have to do something
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 24, 2019, 09:26:05 AM
The most likely scenario is Jim Hiller and D.J. Smith being let go since they are in charge of the PP and PK respectively which were both a huge issue in this series.  That essentially puts Babcock "on notice" that he's on the clock.  I also fully expect Dubas to have a man conversation with Babcock during the exit interviews and call him out on his ice time and lineup decisions.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 24, 2019, 09:42:24 AM
I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).

I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.

I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 24, 2019, 09:49:11 AM
I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).

I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.

I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.

I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong.  From last night, he slyly mentioned:

"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri

I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things.  You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that.  How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start?  How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes?  Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Leaffan61 on April 24, 2019, 10:14:35 AM
I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).

I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.

I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.

I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong.  From last night, he slyly mentioned:

"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri

I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things.  You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that.  How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start?  How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes?  Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!
It's time for Babcock and his finger pointing and excuses to be run outta town. Firing the assistants is just scapegoating. They do what Babcock instructs them to do.

Time for Babcock to reap the whirlwind of accountability.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 24, 2019, 10:35:42 AM
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong.  From last night, he slyly mentioned:

"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri

I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things.  You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that.  How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start?  How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes?  Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!

Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: L K on April 24, 2019, 10:43:23 AM
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong.  From last night, he slyly mentioned:

"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri

I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things.  You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that.  How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start?  How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes?  Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!

Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?

I guess my contention would be Nylander....but.  Nylander to start and then when the game needs offense you double shift Matthews/Tavares a bit and get Nylander out on the wing.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Chris on April 24, 2019, 10:50:51 AM
There's a lot of things I don't like about Babcock, but he did get this team to play much better "playoff hockey" including team defense, for significant parts of this series. Overall the Leafs looked to be the better team to me, at 5v5 at least. The special teams did them in and I put almost all of the blame for that on the coaching staff. And Rask outplayed Andersen in game 7, what can you do...Andersen bailed the Leafs out so many times all season and even in this series but he's only human.

As for the third line, I don't know. Marleau was an anchor and I don't know how anyone could come away with a different opinion if they actually watched the games. He does one thing well - stand in front of the net and screen/tip pucks. But anytime he went into the corner he lost the puck battle. Any time the puck wound up on his stick he gave it away. WTF is Nylander supposed to do when his passing options are Marleau and Brown. It's really criminal that at least one of Moore or Ennis weren't tried on that line (or that Nylander wasn't shifted into Goats spot).
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 24, 2019, 11:03:20 AM
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?

Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.

I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 24, 2019, 11:04:43 AM
I don't like that Babcock never seems to take any blame when discussing what went wrong.  From last night, he slyly mentioned:

"goals kept going in" -- slight shot at Andersen
"we couldn't move Willy around" - shot at Kadri

I mean, the Kadri argument is valid, however you've known he's not available since game 2, and you had plenty of time to try other things.  You totally *could* have moved Willy around, but you chose not to, don't blame Kadri for that.  How about giving Nylander better wingers for a start?  How about a period of Matthews-Nylander just to see how it goes?  Nope, can't do that cause we don't have Kadri!

Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?

It was from Mirtle and Siegel in the post game questions with Babcock.  Both reporters mentioned he seemed more rattled than he ever has before in a post game conference and both suggested he was deflecting blame to others.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bender on April 24, 2019, 11:36:38 AM
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?

Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.

I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.

Definitely. I mean you just can't justify his deployment last night. You can't. However if Andersen isn't leaky then it's a 1-1 game. Obviously team D and special teams have been a problem all year but if he deployed his team optimally then he wouldn't be in a position where people are pointing fingers at him. They'd say he deployed the team the best he could and that's that. PK was a problem but I think he'd get more of a pass if the deployment made more sense, but it just doesn't.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on April 24, 2019, 11:46:50 AM
Anyone feeling any differently now?

The knee-jerk reactions against Babcock are strong right now. That aside, I think it might be prudent to put Kefe in place and let him run the team.

- I do not like the way Babcock manages ice time
- I do not think he matches lines - or even mixes lines very well
- He does not appear to be dynamic enough with his game plan - it is as if he is saying "my plan is my plan and that is what we will stick with no matter what
- Sheldon Keefe is a good coach who will be picked up by another team if they do not promote him
- After the same result three years in a row (twice in a row to Boston) they have to do something
Do you remember is opening day lines?

3rd: Levio Kadri Brown
4th: Johnsson Goat Kapi

He's just out of touch.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 24, 2019, 11:49:44 AM
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?

Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.

I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.

Definitely. I mean you just can't justify his deployment last night. You can't. However if Andersen isn't leaky then it's a 1-1 game. Obviously team D and special teams have been a problem all year but if he deployed his team optimally then he wouldn't be in a position where people are pointing fingers at him. They'd say he deployed the team the best he could and that's that. PK was a problem but I think he'd get more of a pass if the deployment made more sense, but it just doesn't.

And some of that deployment inflexibility extends into the regular season. You have to know what arrows are in the quiver. You have to build up a comfort level with the tools at hand for the times when you might need them. If you preach that every game is a process of learning to do it better each time and building up experience and scars, some of these bench players are going to need actual game time too so that the team as a whole can be better together.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: lc9 on April 24, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
I watched last night and saw a lot of good things until slightly bad things happened and Andersen finally faltered. Zero additional/effective press from the coaching staff to push the roster's limits and concentrate its attack is going to be the storyline dragging into the off season. It's baffling, but was it really surprising? The coaching staff believed in a certain style of play and certain players to steer that style and stuck to their guns. I slightly blame Nylander for making Marleau look effective for enough of an early game to convince Babcock to ride or die with the iron man (nevermind that he was surrounded by play drivers in Nylander, 40%Gardiner, 85%Dermott).

I like Carlton's idea (https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=5447.msg363146#msg363146) to try out different assistants. I don't know if it's a good time for Dubas to use the Keefe silver bullet yet as he really only just got his hands on the team, but there is an old boys club vibe from how people have written about the coaching staff and a disconnect with Dubas' management team. Like Zee said, put him on notice.

I generally like the way Babcock deals with media and his players (and their psychological growth) and like 90% of his tactical choices, so I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better option. If Dubas can make it work with Babcock (they have a lot of alignment philosophically), this team is still going places.

I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: lc9 on April 24, 2019, 12:09:01 PM
Perhaps you're more sensitive than me (meaning you're picking up things I'm not), but I don't see either of those statements as shots, but rather a commentary on the situation they were in. Who becomes the third line centre if Nylander goes back up to wing? Marleau?

Yeah, those seemed like pretty obvious facts being stated, rather than pot shots.

I find Babcock to generally have a very good read on what's happening. Falls down on what he believes will solve it. Not ruthless enough with underperforming veterans.

Definitely. I mean you just can't justify his deployment last night. You can't. However if Andersen isn't leaky then it's a 1-1 game. Obviously team D and special teams have been a problem all year but if he deployed his team optimally then he wouldn't be in a position where people are pointing fingers at him. They'd say he deployed the team the best he could and that's that. PK was a problem but I think he'd get more of a pass if the deployment made more sense, but it just doesn't.

And some of that deployment inflexibility extends into the regular season. You have to know what arrows are in the quiver. You have to build up a comfort level with the tools at hand for the times when you might need them. If you preach that every game is a process of learning to do it better each time and building up experience and scars, some of these bench players are going to need actual game time too so that the team as a whole can be better together.

And where has that gotten us?  3 straight first round exits.  Seems like youíre suggesting you canít try new things in the playoffs because you didnít try them in the regular season, so itís just better to stick with the status quo and lose. 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bill_Berg on April 24, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Maybe Buffalo hired him after all.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 24, 2019, 01:23:49 PM
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

This is kind of funny. Maybe you missed all the criticism I had for him the past three years about not cycling his depth players enough during the year to make sure he had options available in case of injury and tactical changes.

Babock's issue isn't that he isn't flexible and won't make in game adjustment, as he most certainly does adjust to game situations. The issue is that he makes adjustments that we don't like because he leans on the players he's comfortable with (that we and usually the stats don't like). Perhaps a couple of high profile instances of him sticking with his guns and still getting knocked out prompts a re-evaluation.

Seems like youíre suggesting you canít try new things in the playoffs because you didnít try them in the regular season, so itís just better to stick with the status quo and lose. 

What I'm saying is if comfort-level is a problem, the solution is to purposefully learn to get comfortable when the stakes are not as high so that you have options in a pinch.

All this haranguing masks all the good that he has actually accomplished with this team. There were moments throughout the season when the Leafs were unstoppable and unflappable. They know they're capable of it, so now the extra hard work comes in making it their new baseline.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on April 24, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too.  If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it. 

As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round.  Waiting another year for that is tough. 

And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not.  GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on April 24, 2019, 01:58:15 PM
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:

Starting Lineup

Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing

Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.

Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing

Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.

Lines shuffled again (to late bud)

Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing

Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.
He was worse than my prediction. He made no tweaks what so ever and did not play his best more. Nothing changes, not under his leadership.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bender on April 24, 2019, 01:59:20 PM
Here's my prediction for the playoffs:

Starting Lineup

Marleau Matthew Kappi
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Nylander
Johnsson and who cares, ain't playing

Roll three lines, Brown and Hyman lead all forwards in ice time, lose 2 of 3 games.

Lines "reshuffled" back to the beginning of time lines.

Marleau Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Brown Kadri Kappi
Johnsson who cares, ain't playing

Win one, lose one. Still rolling 3 evenly.

Lines shuffled again (to late bud)

Kappi Matthews Nylander
Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Kadri Maleau
Brown Who cares, ain't playing

Play the first two lines a lot win one and lose one, series lost. Bab's defaults to his best lineup too late because he's an idiot.
He was worse than my prediction. He made no tweaks what's so ever and did not play his best more. Nothing changes, not under his leadership.

To be fair Kadri was worse than your prediction too.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 24, 2019, 02:06:31 PM
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too.  If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it. 

As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round.  Waiting another year for that is tough. 

And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not.  GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.

Yeah, I agree with the point that Dubas needs to ascertain what he believes will be best for the team's success going forward. I'm not entirely sold that means cutting bait on Babcock in reaction to this series. There is so much luck involved in two weeks of play to hinge huge decisions on.

If we're going to blame Babcock and the coaching staff for their shortcomings in game 7, we should give them similar credit for getting the Leafs into this series and taking it as far as it went (they were coached about the same throughout). There were certainly things I would've done differently, but who's to say those would've actually worked better (Matthews-Nylander-Griffith 24 min TOI, baby!!)? Shoot your shot and evaluate what to improve.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: lc9 on April 24, 2019, 02:46:57 PM
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years.  Mike has shown he is more concerned with showing he is the boss then bringing the team to the next level. 

And really, back to the ďbad luckĒ defense?  The leafs losing had nothing to do with bad luck.   
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 24, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too.  If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it. 

As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round.  Waiting another year for that is tough. 

And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not.  GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.

Yeah, I agree with the point that Dubas needs to ascertain what he believes will be best for the team's success going forward. I'm not entirely sold that means cutting bait on Babcock in reaction to this series. There is so much luck involved in two weeks of play to hinge huge decisions on.

If we're going to blame Babcock and the coaching staff for their shortcomings in game 7, we should give them similar credit for getting the Leafs into this series and taking it as far as it went (they were coached about the same throughout). There were certainly things I would've done differently, but who's to say those would've actually worked better (Matthews-Nylander-Griffith 24 min TOI, baby!!)? Shoot your shot and evaluate what to improve.

I would love to be a fly on the wall of the meeting between Dubas and Babcock.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 24, 2019, 03:10:51 PM
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Strangelove on April 24, 2019, 03:14:53 PM
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.

These are players who were generally high-rated prospects and rookies and then started to enter their prime, all while Babcock was coach. They have arguably been underutilized or misused by Babcock. I don't see any reason to give him credit here, save for maybe Rielly's development.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 24, 2019, 03:19:08 PM
Outside of Matthews, I don't the listed players have been underutilized. It'd be nice if Rielly was in the top 10 in TOI/g, but that's an adjustment of about 60 seconds.

and I'm not necessary defending Babcock here, just questioning the claim that the Leafs aren't developing.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on April 24, 2019, 03:20:52 PM
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: lc9 on April 24, 2019, 03:29:17 PM
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.

Team as a whole.  Individual development is great, but that doesnít mean anything if you donít win.   The lack of adjustments is scary. It absolutly defies logic.   
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 24, 2019, 03:39:15 PM
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go.   The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen.  Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step.  He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on April 24, 2019, 03:43:34 PM
Just looked up #firebabcock on twitter... wow.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 24, 2019, 03:50:19 PM
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go.   The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen.  Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step.  He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.
Bab's biggest failures were his utilization of Matthews and the crappy special teams. All are in his control and to be very blunt, he shit the bed here. There's way too much talent not to have one of the best PP's in the league. As for the PK, his blind loyalty to guys like Hyman, Hainsey, Zaitsev and whoever else he used on the pk were his downfall. News flash. The PK wasn't good since NOV yet they never changed up the personal or put a better plan in place. That's all on coaching.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Deebo on April 24, 2019, 04:08:10 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to change, but I just can't see it happening.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 24, 2019, 04:18:17 PM
https://theathletic.com/943129/2019/04/24/bourne-why-firing-mike-babcock-or-making-knee-jerk-reactions-that-affects-the-leafs-core-would-be-foolish/

Complaining about what's wrong is fun and all, but providing solutions is where the money's made.

Bourne touches on the healthy tension that Dubas and Babcock's differences can foster progress with.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 24, 2019, 05:01:36 PM
Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 24, 2019, 05:42:41 PM
Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.


I have no faith that Babcock will learn anything from this failure. I can see us 12 months from now complaining again now Babcock kept rolling 4 lines while down in the 3rd period.   Connor Brown baby, I know he can score big goals because he scored against Pittsburgh to get us into the playoffs 4 years ago!
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 24, 2019, 05:48:54 PM
Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.


I have no faith that Babcock will learn anything from this failure. I can see us 12 months from now complaining again now Babcock kept rolling 4 lines while down in the 3rd period.   Connor Brown baby, I know he can score big goals because he scored against Pittsburgh to get us into the playoffs 4 years ago!
Sadly, I can see the same thing. If Dubas and company don't think Babs will adjust, then he needs to go. Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: LuncheonMeat on April 24, 2019, 06:26:07 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 24, 2019, 06:46:50 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Rob on April 24, 2019, 07:00:07 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions? 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: BermudaBudsFan on April 24, 2019, 07:42:48 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?
There is simply too much at stake.  Itís the best talent in years, maybe more. The window is limited.  If Babcock doesnít give you the best chance, he should be gone.  It may also be Dubasí career if doesnít work, but he has to take the chance.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: LuncheonMeat on April 24, 2019, 08:05:50 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Frank E on April 24, 2019, 09:12:30 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.

Is this true?  Did Matthews have as many shifts as those guys, but just went off sooner?

If that's the case, that's going to throw a big stick in the wheel of most of the posting complaining about Matthews' ice time management last night.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 24, 2019, 11:09:42 PM
I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.
We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.

Is this true?  Did Matthews have as many shifts as those guys, but just went off sooner?

If that's the case, that's going to throw a big stick in the wheel of most of the posting complaining about Matthews' ice time management last night.
It's true and no it won't. Why would it? 2:19 of ice over 27 shifts that JT had, Matthews had 26, works out to 5 seconds a shift. We also don't know when Babs changed the line or Matthews came off himself. All you need to know is this. Even at JT's number of 21:19, that's still not enough for the 2nd leading goal scorer in the playoffs in an elimination game. Did you see Matthews getting out with the 4th line? How about with Willy? Babs did nothing to try and get him and JT more ice and that's unacceptable. Goat shouldn't have seen the ice in the 3rd. Babs should have been running Matthews, Tavares, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Tavares etc. Add in the fact that he played Marleau over Willy with the goalie pulled. You know Marleau, the guy who had 8 total shots in 7 games. I mean c'mon. Elliot Friedman I think pointed it out. Matthews played a whopping 4 mins of the first 14 in the 3rd period. That again is unacceptable. Time for Dubas to take away Mike's toys again.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on April 24, 2019, 11:50:52 PM
Dubas is running the show, he's in charge of the coach.  He had the moxie to lure Tavares.  I assume he has the cajones to sit down with Mike and tell him where he found his coaching lacking, in season and in the playoffs.  It's standard performance review stuff.  And Babcock should be able to offer whatever critique he may have of Dubas.  But Dubas is his boss, not the other way round.

And if you're Dubas you don't say to Babcock, "I want you to play Matthews x minutes a night."  That's the coach's decision.  But you can say, "I want to see a system out there that results in 34/91/16/29 with x% TOI/60 -- you figure out how to make it happen."  You can say, "I want to see us in the top X in the league on the PP, and the top Y in the PK -- you figure out how to make it happen."  In other words, you, Dubas, the boss, you set some parameters and let the coach get there.  And if he doesn't, then you decide if it's time to move on.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 12:37:46 AM
Dubas is running the show, he's in charge of the coach.  He had the moxie to lure Tavares.  I assume he has the cajones to sit down with Mike and tell him where he found his coaching lacking, in season and in the playoffs.  It's standard performance review stuff.  And Babcock should be able to offer whatever critique he may have of Dubas.  But Dubas is his boss, not the other way round.

And if you're Dubas you don't say to Babcock, "I want you to play Matthews x minutes a night."  That's the coach's decision.  But you can say, "I want to see a system out there that results in 34/91/16/29 with x% TOI/60 -- you figure out how to make it happen."  You can say, "I want to see us in the top X in the league on the PP, and the top Y in the PK -- you figure out how to make it happen."  In other words, you, Dubas, the boss, you set some parameters and let the coach get there.  And if he doesn't, then you decide if it's time to move on.
Agree. Dubas is still going to take his toys away tho me thinks lol.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 25, 2019, 02:21:40 AM
In some way, the Leafs and Babcockís coaching (decision-making re: season & playoffs) can be termed as predictable. 

Whereas the Bruins strategized, analyzed, (according to Bostonís Bergeron who mentioned about picking up the little things, the tendencies & Ďweaknessesí of those youíre playing against), as the series wore on  especially in Games 6 & 7.  If anything, Boston made the changes that made the odds work in their favour, while the Leafs remained static (hence predictable).

Itís doubtful Dubas will fire Babs.  The assistant staff will most likely undergo change.  Hopefully, with a stronger & better support system in place ó some roster changes namely to strengthen the defence and add even more fluidity in the offensive category, next year, expectations will again rise but this time the Leafs should win a round and advance.

No one is saying the team needs to win the Cup so soon, but at least in defeating Boston this playoff year would have been seen as more of a confidence booster, and in getting that mental monkey off their backs, so to speak.  No one out there (media/hockey writers, etc.) chose the Leafs to come up winners but as weíve all seen, this yearís NHL playoffs results have been nothing short of unexpected.   It would have been nice if Toronto could have been there too.

Weíll need to wait Ďtill next year. 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 25, 2019, 10:04:20 AM
This was a good read.
http://faceoffcircle.ca/2019/04/24/this-years-game-7-was-mike-babcocks-tipping-point/

Quote
It really felt like Babcock, at a certain point had decided that heíd rather risk losing his way than try winning a different way.

If he's willing to a) see that his current way needs an update and b) follow through with adapting, then I still think he can accomplish a lot with the Leafs. Like really good players coming up through junior who've never had to play defense before because no one could stop them, at some point, you hit a ceiling and you either wash out or adapt to thrive.

Why hasn't he already changed? Success is a bit of a blinder, yeah?

If I'm Dubas, when I sit down with the coaching staff, that's the exact conversation I'm having. You guys had a good regular season with reasonable improvement given the circumstances; the next level is going to require not-too significant adjustment.

We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths. The team is strong enough in talent now that you can use the first half to build up your bench and give your vets additional recovery time (screw their pride). This is an easy fix.

We got killed on predictability (again). Players are smart and can handle more than two routes and breakout plays. Let your skill be creative. The horses are already in the stable, so this is an easy enough fix.

Balanced attack and ice time in the regular season is great to keep your workhorses fresh. In crunch time, accordion the bench and stack the percentages in your favour with your best players. Easy fix. you love to win, Babcock? Then play to win, not to not-lose.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 25, 2019, 11:52:21 AM
Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 11:59:44 AM
This was a good read.
http://faceoffcircle.ca/2019/04/24/this-years-game-7-was-mike-babcocks-tipping-point/

Quote
It really felt like Babcock, at a certain point had decided that heíd rather risk losing his way than try winning a different way.

If he's willing to a) see that his current way needs an update and b) follow through with adapting, then I still think he can accomplish a lot with the Leafs. Like really good players coming up through junior who've never had to play defense before because no one could stop them, at some point, you hit a ceiling and you either wash out or adapt to thrive.

Why hasn't he already changed? Success is a bit of a blinder, yeah?

If I'm Dubas, when I sit down with the coaching staff, that's the exact conversation I'm having. You guys had a good regular season with reasonable improvement given the circumstances; the next level is going to require not-too significant adjustment.

We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths. The team is strong enough in talent now that you can use the first half to build up your bench and give your vets additional recovery time (screw their pride). This is an easy fix.

We got killed on predictability (again). Players are smart and can handle more than two routes and breakout plays. Let your skill be creative. The horses are already in the stable, so this is an easy enough fix.

Balanced attack and ice time in the regular season is great to keep your workhorses fresh. In crunch time, accordion the bench and stack the percentages in your favour with your best players. Easy fix. you love to win, Babcock? Then play to win, not to not-lose.
Good article and agree with it all. I've bitched about Babs all year and his insistence of starting the 4th line after a goal. I never liked him doing that and in the end it cost us in game 6 when he started the 4th line after going up 1-0. There's lots of good things about Babs but there's lots of stuff I don't like to and most were mentioned in the article. He needs to change or he needs to go. I think the leash is going to be really short for him next year. What is Sheldon Keefe's contract status for next year?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 25, 2019, 12:05:02 PM
We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths.

Is it though? Last year in game 7 against the Bruins our 4th line was JVR-Bozak-Kapanen. And we still had 3 legitimate NHLers in the pressbox in Komarov, Leivo, and Martin.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 12:07:03 PM
Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.
Even Brian Burke criticized him yesterday on Tim and Sid for some of his decisions. Cassidy outcoached him by a mile. His number 1 line struggles, he moves Pasta. Babs did nothing. He moved guys in and out of the line up, Babs did nothing. It was almost like Babs was just hoping the 3rd and 4th lines wouldn't get scored on and that would be success. Rosen should have been playing instead of Jake who could barely skate out there. Moore would have been an upgrade over Hyman who clearly wasn't getting it done on the forecheck anymore. The list goes on and on of all the obvious bad decisions he made. I really believe there will be some raised voices when Dubas, Shanny and Babs sit down.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 25, 2019, 12:10:56 PM
Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.
Even Brian Burke criticized him yesterday on Tim and Sid for some of his decisions. Cassidy outcoached him by a mile. His number 1 line struggles, he moves Pasta. Babs did nothing. He moved guys in and out of the line up, Babs did nothing. It was almost like Babs was just hoping the 3rd and 4th lines wouldn't get scored on and that would be success. Rosen should have been playing instead of Jake who could barely skate out there. Moore would have been an upgrade over Hyman who clearly wasn't getting it done on the forecheck anymore. The list goes on and on of all the obvious bad decisions he made. I really believe there will be some raised voices when Dubas, Shanny and Babs sit down.


Cassidy seemed like the desperate coach trying everything to win, as if his job was on the line and he'd never won a round before. All those changes he did game in game out like you mentioned, and Babcock basically stuck to the same formula he followed all season.  It was just such a stark contrast in coaching philosophy
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 12:33:10 PM
We got killed on depth (an area of strength) because the other team was willing to use what it had regularly and explore those potential strengths.

Is it though? Last year in game 7 against the Bruins our 4th line was JVR-Bozak-Kapanen. And we still had 3 legitimate NHLers in the pressbox in Komarov, Leivo, and Martin.
Hard to say really. I think we might have had more depth but our top lines were much stronger this year. There really isn't a top line on that team looking back. Even with JT we were lacking depth at centre because of the Kadri suspension this year. Kadri in moves Willy to the wing and Brown down to the 4th line which in itself is a minus because Ennis and Moore both played better then him. Definitely need an upgrade at the 4th centre spot.
                       
Hyman Matthews Brown vs  Johnsson Matthews Kappy
Marleau Kadri Marner   vs    Hyman Tavares Marner
Johnsson Plekanec Nylander  vs  Marleau Nylander Brown     
JVR Bozak Kappy   vs  Ennis Goat Moore                 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 12:45:05 PM
Babcock by all accounts seemed rattled in the post game press conference. I wonder if his 100% confidence in his own ideas and ways has finally taken a much needed hit. If he's as progressive as some say he is then he should be open to listening to other people's opinions and maybe realize he has to change his ways. Cassidy ran circles around him in this series, if Babcock doesn't learn from this he's a lost cause.
Even Brian Burke criticized him yesterday on Tim and Sid for some of his decisions. Cassidy outcoached him by a mile. His number 1 line struggles, he moves Pasta. Babs did nothing. He moved guys in and out of the line up, Babs did nothing. It was almost like Babs was just hoping the 3rd and 4th lines wouldn't get scored on and that would be success. Rosen should have been playing instead of Jake who could barely skate out there. Moore would have been an upgrade over Hyman who clearly wasn't getting it done on the forecheck anymore. The list goes on and on of all the obvious bad decisions he made. I really believe there will be some raised voices when Dubas, Shanny and Babs sit down.


Cassidy seemed like the desperate coach trying everything to win, as if his job was on the line and he'd never won a round before. All those changes he did game in game out like you mentioned, and Babcock basically stuck to the same formula he followed all season.  It was just such a stark contrast in coaching philosophy
For sure. Cassidy recognized things weren't working and changed them up fast. He didn't wait. It was like Babs was just hoping the talent would win it and it almost did. This loss could end up being a blessing for the team to move forward especially in coaching philosophy. Team needs better PK and PP. I read that the Bruins were shocked that our PP didn't play more. Funny, even they saw it.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 25, 2019, 12:50:36 PM
Hard to say really. I think we might have had more depth but our top lines were much stronger this year. There really isn't a top line on that team looking back. Even with JT we were lacking depth at centre because of the Kadri suspension this year. Kadri in moves Willy to the wing and Brown down to the 4th line which in itself is a minus because Ennis and Moore both played better then him. Definitely need an upgrade at the 4th centre spot.

Discussing our depth is definitely is a tricky subject because you wouldn't think it'd be an issue for a team with 6 20-goal scorers at forward (and that's not including Nylander who will usually hit that mark). But moving Willy to C just destroyed our wing depth. 5 of our bottom-6 forwards were essentially 4th line calibre players (and that's being generous for Gauthier). I know that you and others wish Babcock changed things around and yeah I wish he did too just to see what would happen, but at the end of the day swapping Marleau/Brown for Moore/Ennis is just like moving chairs on the Titanic to me. Forward depth was a real issue.

edit: I should clarify that it was an issue because Marleau and Brown played down to what was expected from them particularly down the stretch and in the playoffs. 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 25, 2019, 12:52:27 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 01:14:00 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bender on April 25, 2019, 01:32:33 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.

Dubas taking responsibility for all that is kind of ridiculous. He's not playing, he's not drawing up the plays. He gets personnel and I don't think personnel really was the main glaring problem in this series.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 01:34:11 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.

Dubas taking responsibility for all that is kind of ridiculous. He's not playing, he's not drawing up the plays. He gets personnel and I don't think personnel really was the main glaring problem in this series.
It just shows he's a stand up guy, unlike our coach who deflects.
Title: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 25, 2019, 06:37:48 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.


Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.

It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 07:34:14 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.


Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.

It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Highlander on April 25, 2019, 08:07:13 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.


Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.

It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.
I'd like to be pissed off making what he makes playing the game he loves and never having to worry about money again. I understand his competitive nature but while Babs is the coach he makes the calls.
If the don't make it past round 1 next year, then Babs will go. I would sh_t a brick if Babs was fired now. Yes I would like to see Keefe at some point but we have to let it ride with a new look D. 
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 08:22:45 PM
I'd like to have his money too! That's what he did say tho. Coaches deploy the players and determine ice time.
Cherry on coaches corner even got in on the Babs opinion. He talked about how he should leave the guys on the whole PP. Says when they know they're coming off in 50 seconds they are forced to try and make stuff happen instead of taking their time. I can't argue with that logic. I was watching a bit of the Caps game last night. The first PP unit for them was on 1:30 before they changed and OV stayed on after that. Babs needs to do 5ge same with ours.
I also won't be upset if they can Babs. He was bad enough last year putting Brown and Hyman with Matthews but this year he took it to a new level.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 25, 2019, 08:26:59 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.


Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.

It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.
I'd like to be pissed off making what he makes playing the game he loves and never having to worry about money again. I understand his competitive nature but while Babs is the coach he makes the calls.
If the don't make it past round 1 next year, then Babs will go. I would sh_t a brick if Babs was fired now. Yes I would like to see Keefe at some point but we have to let it ride with a new look D.


Based on Babcock's answers today what faith have you that he would do anything differently next season? His answer to everything is "we need better players". Sorry Babs but you're not assembling a team Canada worthy roster with the salary cap, it's time to actually coach the roster you have and get the most out of it. That means playing your best players more and in situations where it's warranted.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 25, 2019, 08:31:17 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/

Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 08:34:27 PM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.


Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.

It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.
I'd like to be pissed off making what he makes playing the game he loves and never having to worry about money again. I understand his competitive nature but while Babs is the coach he makes the calls.
If the don't make it past round 1 next year, then Babs will go. I would sh_t a brick if Babs was fired now. Yes I would like to see Keefe at some point but we have to let it ride with a new look D.


Based on Babcock's answers today what faith have you that he would do anything differently next season? His answer to everything is "we need better players". Sorry Babs but you're not assembling a team Canada worthy roster with the salary cap, it's time to actually coach the roster you have and get the most out of it. That means playing your best players more and in situations where it's warranted.
Babs answers are troubling to me. Like I said. The players apologized, Nylander, Kadri and others. Dubas apologizes yet Babs thinks or talks like he did everything right. I don't think he'll change and that's why I'd get rid of him. This series is on him. I really loved the They adjusted, we adjusted, they adjusted, we adjusted line. Wtf are you talking about Mike? You didn't adjust to anything.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 08:38:52 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/

Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
Dubas is a Gud pro. He won't say publicly what he thinks. He's a smart guy that I'm sure is not overly happy with the coaching staff. We will see what he does but I trust in Dubie.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 25, 2019, 09:23:32 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/

Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
Dubas is a Gud pro. He won't say publicly what he thinks. He's a smart guy that I'm sure is not overly happy with the coaching staff. We will see what he does but I trust in Dubie.


Based on Dubas's answer with regards to Shanahan I think he indirectly was saying he can't fire Babcock without Shanahan signing off which makes sense given that Shanny hired Babs.  I also think that if it doesn't happen now it will next season if the Leafs don't improve on this performance.  Babcock would know this so he's under the gun.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 25, 2019, 09:35:54 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/04/25/kyle-dubas-i-thought-our-coaching-staff-did-a-good-job-this-year-with-our-group/

Yeah Dubas is a good pro.
Dubas is a Gud pro. He won't say publicly what he thinks. He's a smart guy that I'm sure is not overly happy with the coaching staff. We will see what he does but I trust in Dubie.


Based on Dubas's answer with regards to Shanahan I think he indirectly was saying he can't fire Babcock without Shanahan signing off which makes sense given that Shanny hired Babs.  I also think that if it doesn't happen now it will next season if the Leafs don't improve on this performance.  Babcock would know this so he's under the gun.
Absolutely. He has to know he's under the gun if he's back.
Here's another gem from Babs..
Mike Babcock had high praise today for Mitch Marnerís all-around improvement this season, then added: ďMitch is going to be a real leader on our club. We need him and Auston to take a step in that area for sure. We think they're very capable of doing that.Ē
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 25, 2019, 10:58:04 PM
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 26, 2019, 04:48:02 AM


Looking at the twitter reaction, not many accepted his comments.  Goes to show how the fan base in general feels about this coach & management altogether.

There arenít too many people out there that would shed a tear if Babs were to be fired.  Babcock, Dubas, and the team will be facing even greater pressure as well as expectations next post season, and it wonít matter who they play against (but especially if it is Boston again).
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Leaffan61 on April 26, 2019, 09:18:48 AM
Why waste another year? It's obvious this coach can't change.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 26, 2019, 09:47:31 AM
Mike Commodore is a dolt by the way. Heard him on spittin chicklets podcast today.  He was ranting about how bad Babcock is, mentioned he never took blame for anything (this is true), but then they ask Commodore if he thought the Kadri suspension had any effect on the series.  "No, they lose with or without Kadri"...ok Mike.

He also mentioned how he didn't' really watch the series at all (because he claims it makes him sick watching Babcock on TV) so he only followed through highlights and articles about the series. Great analysis there!
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bender on April 26, 2019, 09:55:10 AM
Why waste another year? It's obvious this coach can't change.

This is Dubas' first full year and Shanny hired Babcock. I don't think they want to throw away that much money already. If Babcock doesn't change then Dubas can say he tried to get his methodology through to him and it didn't work. Babcock gets another year, it buys Dubas some time. If there aren't any results once Babcock is gone his head is next on the chopping block, rightly or wrongly, and I think it's way too soon for that.

If Babcock had to be re-upped this year it'd be a lot easier to walk away.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 26, 2019, 10:57:12 AM
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/

Quote
The organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. Heís not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. Heís got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but heís not.

But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when itís necessary.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on April 26, 2019, 10:57:19 AM
Holy hell what a contrast in press conferences today. Babcock never once took blame for anything that happened. He always has some other reason for why things went wrong. Dubas said multiple times "blame me for that". Dubas was taking responsibility for Nylander's not greatest season, the PK being horrendous in the playoffs, so ridiculous.
Babs doesn't take ownership on anything. The shots went in...next year we'll be bigger....blah blah. Dubas is a stand up guy.


Stand up guy or not it was a bit over the top. I've never once heard a gm take blame for an underperforming penalty kill, that's 100% on coaching, it just sounded like he was trying too hard to take bullets for everything.

It was interesting when asked if Babcock was back as coach that he said "Shanahan has to evaluate me first before I can make those types of evaluations"
Dubas is a smart guy and I love that response. If I was basing things off the playoffs and the way both he and Dubas answered to the media, I'd fire Babs. He's not going to change. Even the players apologized. Fact is everyone did but Babs. I also found Matthews response interesting when asked about ice time. He looked pissed off to me and just said I don't deploy the players. That's the coaches job.
Matthews quote = Bab's fired
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Michael on April 26, 2019, 11:00:54 AM
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/

Quote
The organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. Heís not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. Heís got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but heís not.

But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when itís necessary.

That is a good read and seems like the rational way of thinking. But darn it man.... I am a fan and have been for a very very long time. The Leafs have a window here where they can shoot for a Cup and I cannot fight away the feeling in me that Babcock cannot and will not get it done. Sheldon Keefe won a championship last year and is now over achieving this year in the playoffs. If Babcock stays then so be it, but if Dubas wants to go with Keefe I could get into that.

Maybe Keefe comes up as an assistant?
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on April 26, 2019, 11:09:34 AM
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/

Quote
The organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. Heís not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. Heís got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but heís not.

But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when itís necessary.
It took him two playoff game losses to bench Komarov last year. Johnsson wasn't even dressed game 1.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 26, 2019, 11:21:06 AM
https://theathletic.com/945844/2019/04/25/mike-babcock-needs-to-show-he-can-change-for-the-leafs-to-take-the-next-step/

Quote
The organization needs Babcock to unclench his fists in certain situations, to be more flexible and willing to try new things. Heís not averse to change, either. When he saw that Matt Martin was too slow, and that ready, speedy replacements were available in Johnsson and Kapanen, he turned the page and never looked back. Heís got a rap for being anti-analytics, too, but heís not.

But he also needs to keep evolving, to appreciate his blind-spots and embrace change when itís necessary.

That is a good read and seems like the rational way of thinking. But darn it man.... I am a fan and have been for a very very long time. The Leafs have a window here where they can shoot for a Cup and I cannot fight away the feeling in me that Babcock cannot and will not get it done. Sheldon Keefe won a championship last year and is now over achieving this year in the playoffs. If Babcock stays then so be it, but if Dubas wants to go with Keefe I could get into that.

Maybe Keefe comes up as an assistant?

I don't see that working with Babcock.  Everyone would know that Keefe is the heir apparent right next to Babcock and I doubt Mike would want that.  He'd be second guessing everything Keefe suggests and probably overriding him on any decision just because he can.  It's either Keefe takes over or he stays with the Marlies.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 26, 2019, 12:28:22 PM
I don't see that working with Babcock.  Everyone would know that Keefe is the heir apparent right next to Babcock and I doubt Mike would want that.  He'd be second guessing everything Keefe suggests and probably overriding him on any decision just because he can.  It's either Keefe takes over or he stays with the Marlies.

That's contemptible; both Babcock possibly doing that and your suggestion that he would.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 26, 2019, 12:47:26 PM
I don't see that working with Babcock.  Everyone would know that Keefe is the heir apparent right next to Babcock and I doubt Mike would want that.  He'd be second guessing everything Keefe suggests and probably overriding him on any decision just because he can.  It's either Keefe takes over or he stays with the Marlies.

That's contemptible; both Babcock possibly doing that and your suggestion that he would.


What has Babcock ever done but deflect blame away from himself when anything goes wrong? I've never heard him take ownership of anything since he's been the coach so why is my suggestion a reach?  He does what he wants, takes credit for success and is blameless in defeat. That's all he's shown in his time here.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 26, 2019, 02:44:59 PM
Here's just one example of him taking the blame for something (admittedly a smaller thing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4lSosWXOKo

"It's all my fault, let's not kid ourselves." ~ Babcock

He praises his players often.

He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: CarltonTheBear on April 26, 2019, 02:48:26 PM
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.

This is a line of criticism I honestly don't get. For starters, who even cares? I mean Dubas is jumping on all these grenades and we're sitting here knowing that it's all just media rhetoric to him. Not a single person heard him say it's his fault the PK struggled and thought "oh yeah that's right". Babcock just talks to the media in a different way, but it's not like he's ever been Ron Wilson-arrogant where he's constantly throwing his players under the bus or anything. Like you said, he's generally always trying to put a positive spin on things when talking to the media.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 26, 2019, 02:56:52 PM
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.

This is a line of criticism I honestly don't get. For starters, who even cares? I mean Dubas is jumping on all these grenades and we're sitting here knowing that it's all just media rhetoric to him. Not a single person heard him say it's his fault the PK struggled and thought "oh yeah that's right". Babcock just talks to the media in a different way, but it's not like he's ever been Ron Wilson-arrogant where he's constantly throwing his players under the bus or anything. Like you said, he's generally always trying to put a positive spin on things when talking to the media.

Confirmation bias
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Hobbes on April 26, 2019, 03:15:57 PM
He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.

This is a line of criticism I honestly don't get. For starters, who even cares? I mean Dubas is jumping on all these grenades and we're sitting here knowing that it's all just media rhetoric to him. Not a single person heard him say it's his fault the PK struggled and thought "oh yeah that's right". Babcock just talks to the media in a different way, but it's not like he's ever been Ron Wilson-arrogant where he's constantly throwing his players under the bus or anything. Like you said, he's generally always trying to put a positive spin on things when talking to the media.

Confirmation bias

There's also a lot of it spawned by those from the Fox News school of clickbait broadcasting. It doesn't matter if it's true, or taken wildly out of context, or deliberately misinterpreted and twisted to fit a reporter's narrative as long as it makes for an inflammatory story that generates lots of clicks from the rabid fans. They, in turn, for the most part don't know nearly enough to form their own opinion and/or can't be bothered to actually inform themselves on the subject so they'll suck it up (your confirmation bias on steroids).

How Shannahan, Dubas and Babcock choose to speak to the media probably has nothing at all to do with their internal discussions -- almost a Fight Club mentality -- and is purely whatever pablum they feel best suits their needs with the press. They've obviously decided that Mike's job is to cheerlead the process and the players, not throw them under the bus; and Kyle's going to take one for the team with his mea culpa act.

I would like to see one of both of the assistant coaches replaced (perhaps with Sheldon) to try something new. Kyle will have to try to do a bit more reshaping of the roster this summer, although he won't have much cap space to do anything once Mitch is signed.

I fully expect next year to be a step back during the regular season since we'll have some new/rookie defencemen to break in. We still should be a playoff team but we might have to fight a bit harder to lock down our spot and judging by this year's 8 first round winners maybe a bit of adversity/struggle at the end of the season is a good thing.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 26, 2019, 03:18:16 PM
Here's just one example of him taking the blame for something (admittedly a smaller thing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4lSosWXOKo

"It's all my fault, let's not kid ourselves." ~ Babcock

He praises his players often.

He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.

Great, you found one example from literally 2 years ago.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Frycer14 on April 26, 2019, 03:27:04 PM
This thread reminds me of the "once we make it safe, they're coming home" quote from 2016.

Failure is equally tantalizing to the Toronto hockey media as success, if not more so. I've listened and read a bunch of sports writers and radio/tv shows, and it's like they're spinning a wheel of every player, coach, and visible manager, and creating a narrative around why this particular person let the team down. Babcock, Brown, Hainsey, Nylander, Gardiner, Marleau, Kadri, Andersen, Hyman, Kapanen, etc etc etc. It's unreal to see the vitriol gleefully being stoked in the name of talking points and ratings.

It'll never be a comfortable place for any player to play, let alone a hometown one. It makes the Tavares signing all the more remarkable.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 26, 2019, 03:28:04 PM
 I really don't care how he talks to the media, I care how he runs the PP/PK and doles out the ice time, makes in game, out game adjustments. I know he's an NHL coach and we're all coaching from our chairs but some of his decisions were piss poor that we all saw. What's really bad is everyone, including Brian Burke and Cherry say he messed up. Cherry was 100% right last night when discussing the PP. He needs to let his best players stay out there. The only thing wrong with it is time. Babs is literally forcing them to do something within the 1st 45 seconds of it because they're off. A PP is 2 mins long so you need to give your best players at least 3/4 of that time to try and do something. The PP shouldn't be under pressure, the guys PKing should be under pressure.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 26, 2019, 03:39:46 PM
Here's just one example of him taking the blame for something (admittedly a smaller thing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4lSosWXOKo

"It's all my fault, let's not kid ourselves." ~ Babcock

He praises his players often.

He's not immune from criticism, and we should all be critical of aspects of his coaching, but this rhetoric of him ALWAYS deflecting blame and NEVER accepting responsibility is just not true.

Great, you found one example from literally 2 years ago.

Which took me literally 2 seconds to find. I think you're conflating "deflecting blame a couple of times" with "always blames others for mistakes and claims all glory for himself."
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: hockeyfan1 on April 26, 2019, 04:16:12 PM
We all know this by now:  the devil was in the details...
(Zee posted something about this before but the tweet contains a short summarization.  For those who non-subscribers):

Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: azzurri63 on April 26, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
After listening to both Dubas' and Babcock's press conferences yesterday I think this team is headed nowhere.
Honestly think next year is going to be a similar case.
Dave Feschuk thinks exactly the same about Babcock's coaching and decisions that may have cost us the series.
Babcock's horrible playoff numbers.
Decision to keep Hyman on the 1st line knowing he was playing hurt and not contributing which may have affected the whole line.
PP decisions and playing the 1st unit for only a minute.
Can go on and on with his coaching tactics.
Bottom line is he needs to go because he isn't changing a thing.

Dubas I know a lot of you disagree f'd up with Nylander. He even said should have got it done sooner and basically the late deal was suiting Nylander to fail.
Nylander had enough time to get his sh*t together during the season and didn't.
Playoffs non existent albeit crappy wingers but I know he can be better but is he a guy you can rely on in the playoffs?
I don't think so. Too soft and shys away from the dirty areas too much. One shift here and there doesn't cut it.
Paying Nylander what he did set the stage for Matthews and Marners contracts which now have completely fuk'd this team.
Dubas strikes me as Mr. Nice guy.
Should have played hardball with Nylander before season start and say hey you don't wanna sign for 6-6.5 then see you later. They would have gotten a decent return.
Are they going to get the same for him now? Tough to tell.
Anyway both Mike and Kyle screwed us this year and if things stay status quo aint going to be better next year.
Rinse and repeat I've been saying and hopefully I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 26, 2019, 05:21:03 PM
Wanna quit swearing? It's annoying.

Nylander's deal absolutely, 100% had ZERO IMPACT on Matthews's deal. zero.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 26, 2019, 05:24:14 PM
I'm not quoting the whole thing but Dubas did not screw us. Yes he mishandled the Nylander deal but whatever. It was his first big deal ever so he'll learn from it. He should have told him here's the deal, take it or sit out the year. You don't trade him as his value was extrememly low. As for the Nylander contract setting up Matthews and Marner's. Not a chance. His contract value has ZERO to do with either one of those guys. As for Willy having enough time. We can all say that from the outside but ask anyone who played at that level, it doesn't work that way. It's been proven over and over again, you can't miss training camp and be out for 3 months. It's not an excuse, it's reality. I think he'll be fine moving forward and his cap hit will be in line. Issue with a lot of teams now is that they can't afford to keep all their toys because there are no more bridge deals. Wait until you see this summer with all those RFAs and Cap implications. It should be pretty wild. Leafs aren't the only team facing this issue.
As for your comments on Babs, I won't disagree. I really don't think he's the right guy for this team. All one needs to do is look at the defensive system over his tenure.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: OldTimeHockey on April 27, 2019, 10:50:18 AM

How does anyone in their right mind have a problem with those comments?

The people that blame the coach around here sound like the same parents that blame their goalie when johnny loses. Or yells at the coach when their kid isn't getting enough ice time. The same people that yell at the 15 year old linesman that misses an offside call. Give your heads a shake, or at least try to be reasonable in your calling for people's jobs.

Again I'll ask.....How is it possible that the losses are all the coaches fault and the wins are all the players doing? The players are winning despite the coaching and the team is losing despite the players efforts?

Like I said in the other thread, Babcock made some tactical errors. Andersen let in two terrible goals in game 7. Gardiner set up yet another Boston goal. I mean obviously that falls on the head coach right? I mean surely Babcock could have told Andersen to come out to challenge on a shot from the slot. Surely Babcock should of told Gardiner not to pull the reverse behind the net when there were 3 black jerseys behind him and no white in sight.

I mean...Right? Damn coaching.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: sickbeast on April 27, 2019, 10:59:33 AM
The Leafs got beat by the better team in this series, it's that simple IMO.  Boston is big, mean, and skilled, and they are built for the playoffs.  They know how to win when it counts.  They are a more experienced team.

Taking Boston to 7 games was a very good showing by the Leafs.  I feared this type of outcome.  It's too bad.  And next season they are in a bit of a salary cap situation until Nathan Horton comes off the books AFAIK.  We'll see if Dubas can work some magic.  It seems like two years in a row now that the Leafs have wasted some good assets to make a run at things prematurely.  They could have traded Jake Gardiner for a haul this season and last year they had JVR.  I like Muzzin a lot but I don't really foresee the Leafs being a true cup contender next season.  I could be wrong.  It's just they are in a bad situation with respect to the cap.

If Kapanen and Johnsson are traded because of the salary cap situation I will not be a happy man.  I have said from the beginning that I would rather have those two guys as opposed to Nylander.  We'll see what happens over the summer but I do foresee some pretty major changes.  I don't think Babcock or Dubas are going anywhere.  But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 27, 2019, 11:18:33 AM

How does anyone in their right mind have a problem with those comments?

The reactions came off the twitter snippets where only some of the answer was posted without much context.
i.e. We've got to continue to build and add depth and add players.

That reads as absolving himself of responsibility (sup, Zee), even though it's something every team could say. People were expecting him to offer at least a mea culpa, but honestly, every single person does what they believe is right at the time, and it takes time to recognize if it was wrong or not. Take every single post in this board that you would consider ridiculously, factually wrong: that poster believed it to be true and correct.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: herman on April 27, 2019, 11:46:08 AM

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/M7gtacN7aPNsc/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: RedLeaf on April 27, 2019, 11:50:45 AM
I think Iíll give Dubas the benefit of the doubt for what happened this season and in the playoffs. There are only a handful of current Leaf players with his fingerprints on, and Babcock was not his hire either.

EDIT: heís only brought in 3 new players during his first year as GM. Tavares, Muzzin and Ennis, and all 3 looked good this season and even better in the playoffs.

This off season should be telling about what we might see under his direction. Iíd be super surprised if he doesnít make one or two bold moves to tweak the bottom half of the lineup and the defence.

Unlike many on this board , I donít think we are as far off as some of you think. Sprinkle in a few more defensive minded players to the mix we should see the Leafs take it to the next level next season.

But, clearly the honeymoon is over for Dubas . Time is now to prove to Shanny and Leaf Nation you were the right choice for the job
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: sickbeast on April 27, 2019, 01:34:15 PM
I think Iíll give Dubas the benefit of the doubt for what happened this season and in the playoffs. There are only a handful of current Leaf players with his fingerprints on, and Babcock was not his hire either.

EDIT: heís only brought in 3 new players during his first year as GM. Tavares, Muzzin and Ennis, and all 3 looked good this season and even better in the playoffs.

This off season should be telling about what we might see under his direction. Iíd be super surprised if he doesnít make one or two bold moves to tweak the bottom half of the lineup and the defence.

Unlike many on this board , I donít think we are as far off as some of you think. Sprinkle in a few more defensive minded players to the mix we should see the Leafs take it to the next level next season.

But, clearly the honeymoon is over for Dubas . Time is now to prove to Shanny and Leaf Nation you were the right choice for the job
The window is in 2 years and will open up for a few years at that time.  If Dubas is smart he will parlay some assets for a bit of a mini on the fly rebuild next season.  I think the Leafs will be a playoff team next season regardless which will be fun, and anything can happen as Columbus has shown us this season.  I just hope Dubas doesn't make another run at it at the trade deadline next season.  The Leafs would be completely stacked right now if they had traded JVR and Gardiner the past two trade deadlines while also refraining from using picks/prospects to acquire assets prematurely.

I guess it's easy to say that now in hindsight.  The Leafs were the betting favorites to win the cup at the beginning of the season.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 27, 2019, 02:23:40 PM
I just hope Dubas doesn't make another run at it at the trade deadline next season.  The Leafs would be completely stacked right now if they had traded JVR and Gardiner the past two trade deadlines while also refraining from using picks/prospects to acquire assets prematurely.

Dubas didn't make a run this year at the TD. He got Petan. If you're referring to the Muzz deal I wouldn't classify that as a run. It was an area of need and he made a trade and while he used assets to acquire him, it was a very good trade. As for Gardiner, he wasn't getting you much at the deadline and JVR, Bozak and Leo were on Lou.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Bullfrog on April 27, 2019, 02:35:17 PM
... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.

I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 27, 2019, 02:39:26 PM
... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.

I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.
Yup. Only way he goes is if it's for a quality RD coming back.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Highlander on April 27, 2019, 02:55:52 PM
... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.

I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.

Bullfrog is right Willie N is not going anywhere soon or ever.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 27, 2019, 03:14:00 PM
... But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.

I'll spare you some of the suspense: Nylander's not going anywhere, except hopefully on Matthews's wing.

Bullfrog is right Willie N is not going anywhere soon or ever.
I think he scores 30 next year with Matthews. He has something to prove.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on April 27, 2019, 03:30:58 PM
I've been thinking about this a bit since Tuesday and I think I'm not far off the mark when I say that Babcock's PK decisions in Game 6 were the turning point in the series.

I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP.  At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck.  You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP.  If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine.  You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.

And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP.  Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."

The more I think about that the more it burns me.

Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series.  But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 27, 2019, 04:17:55 PM
I've been thinking about this a bit since Tuesday and I think I'm not far off the mark when I say that Babcock's PK decisions in Game 6 were the turning point in the series.

I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP.  At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck.  You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP.  If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine.  You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.

And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP.  Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."

The more I think about that the more it burns me.

Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series.  But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.
Agree on all accounts. And game 6 downfall started with his playing the 4th line after a goal crap. And your winger taking the draw is playing on 1 leg!
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zee on April 28, 2019, 11:16:32 AM
I've been thinking about this a bit since Tuesday and I think I'm not far off the mark when I say that Babcock's PK decisions in Game 6 were the turning point in the series.

I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP.  At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck.  You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP.  If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine.  You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.

And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP.  Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."

The more I think about that the more it burns me.

Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series.  But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.


Babcock will tell you it wasn't his fault, blame Kadri for getting suspended as it made Mike do bad decisions
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: disco on April 28, 2019, 03:59:46 PM
Babs orchestrated the tank year superbly. A ton of structure and discipline, losing games by one goal. The next three years I think he's done a great job, but in terms of being flexible/taking risks on the fly, especially the last two years, there's a case to be made there. I think he gets another year with this group, but he's on the clock.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: L K on April 29, 2019, 12:37:10 PM
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league.  The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent.  If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired.  Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason.  They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: wnc096 on April 29, 2019, 02:09:53 PM
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league.  The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent.  If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired.  Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason.  They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.

Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again.  You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: mr grieves on April 30, 2019, 01:58:14 PM
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league.  The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent.  If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired.  Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason.  They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.

Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again.  You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down

I think, if that happens, and the team is exhibiting the same process-related issues that bedeviled them over the last two years, Dubas might move on from Babcock mid-season. And, obviously, if he loses a third year in a row, he's gone.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on April 30, 2019, 04:16:28 PM
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league.  The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent.  If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired.  Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason.  They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.

Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again.  You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down

Chara already has, considerably.  Krejci too, but not as much.  Bergeron, on the other hand, is still potent as ever.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on April 30, 2019, 04:18:26 PM
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league.  The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent.  If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired.  Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason.  They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.

Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again.  You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down

I think, if that happens, and the team is exhibiting the same process-related issues that bedeviled them over the last two years, Dubas might move on from Babcock mid-season. And, obviously, if he loses a third year in a row, he's gone.

Firing mid-season is a stretch but if they are struggling to even make the playoffs it's possible.  And I agree, he has to get them out of the first round next year or he's done.  Like any coach he'd never admit to something like that publicly, but he knows it.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: L K on April 30, 2019, 06:30:00 PM
At the end of the day it's a results oriented league.  The Leafs have an expensive team with a lot of talent.  If Babcock can't get them to win in the playoffs, that's going to be the reason he gets fired.  Three straight good regular seasons and an 8-12 record in the postseason.  They either advance in the playoffs this year or he is toast.

Theres at least a 50/50 chance they play Boston again.  You gotta hope that Chara/Bergeron/Krejci start to slow down

Chara already has, considerably.  Krejci too, but not as much.  Bergeron, on the other hand, is still potent as ever.

Yeah if anything this playoff series showed that Chara isn't the force that he used to be.  He was slower during the regular season and I have never seen him knocked off his feet as much as this year.  He's always going to be hard to play against when the refs let him hook everyone that skates by him (they let him do that for his entire career) but guys were getting around on him this year.  It's just tough to avoid him when his stick is 15 feet long out from his body.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on April 30, 2019, 08:38:24 PM
CBJ just used their 1st PP unit for 1:53 of the power play, and scored. You watching Babs? Play your best players.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: cabber24 on May 02, 2019, 02:40:36 PM
Speculation on the radio was that Dubas maybe waiting for the Marlies season to end to promote Keefe to the big club.
Title: Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
Post by: Guilt Trip on May 02, 2019, 02:43:00 PM
Speculation on the radio was that Dubas maybe waiting for the Marlies season to end to promote Keefe to the big club.
Good. Word is his contract is up this year. I don't think the Leafs can afford to lose him. Let him run the pp or pk.