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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: herman on June 27, 2018, 10:21:14 AM

Title: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on June 27, 2018, 10:21:14 AM

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LavishOrnateArgentineruddyduck-size_restricted.gif)
#GoalBayes
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 27, 2018, 10:29:22 AM
I'm not sure Reverend Bayes could even have conceived that his theory would be used this way.  Of course, hockey was just getting off the ground back in 18th-century England so who could blame him?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on June 28, 2018, 12:03:59 PM
Just thinking if we don't sign Tavares and any other free agent signing I would love to see Nylander move to Centre (where I believe he wants to play) and have Johnsson and Kapi on his wings. That is a line I would like to see. both Johnsson and Kapi especially are good defensively as well.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on June 28, 2018, 12:51:44 PM
Just thinking if we don't sign Tavares and any other free agent signing I would love to see Nylander move to Centre (where I believe he wants to play) and have Johnsson and Kapi on his wings. That is a line I would like to see. both Johnsson and Kapi especially are good defensively as well.

Who do you play with Matthews?  Moving Nylander off his wing leaves a pretty big hole.   I don't like the idea of 82 games with Brown and Hyman there.   I would love if it was Marner, but I think they like the idea of him with Kadri.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 28, 2018, 12:59:08 PM
Just thinking if we don't sign Tavares and any other free agent signing I would love to see Nylander move to Centre (where I believe he wants to play) and have Johnsson and Kapi on his wings. That is a line I would like to see. both Johnsson and Kapi especially are good defensively as well.

Who do you play with Matthews?  Moving Nylander off his wing leaves a pretty big hole.   I don't like the idea of 82 games with Brown and Hyman there.   I would love if it was Marner, but I think they like the idea of him with Kadri.

If they want to stick with the Marner-Kadri duo:

Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen
Marleau - Kadri - Marner
Hyman - Nylander - Brown (which was a fantastic line in the AHL a couple of years ago)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on June 28, 2018, 01:18:31 PM
Just thinking if we don't sign Tavares and any other free agent signing I would love to see Nylander move to Centre (where I believe he wants to play) and have Johnsson and Kapi on his wings. That is a line I would like to see. both Johnsson and Kapi especially are good defensively as well.

Who do you play with Matthews?  Moving Nylander off his wing leaves a pretty big hole.   I don't like the idea of 82 games with Brown and Hyman there.   I would love if it was Marner, but I think they like the idea of him with Kadri.

If they want to stick with the Marner-Kadri duo:

Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen
Marleau - Kadri - Marner
Hyman - Nylander - Brown (which was a fantastic line in the AHL a couple of years ago)

I imagine flipping hyman and johnsson but that works ...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on June 28, 2018, 01:19:18 PM
I think Kappy will work well with matthews. Hell help carry the puck up and dish it off.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on June 28, 2018, 01:26:14 PM
Is it realistic to be penciling Kapanen in on first lines?

He had 9 points (7 goals) in 38 games last year, and as we've seen, aside from his great speed, he struggles a bit.

I think he's 4th line material at this point, until he can show that be a lot more consistent.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on June 28, 2018, 01:26:31 PM
I think Kappy will work well with matthews. Hell help carry the puck up and dish it off.

So lets say the lineup is this:

Hyman, Matthews, Kapanen
Marleau, Kadri, Marner
Johnsson, Nylander, Brown

When you look at that, the Leafs are kind of poised to take a bit of a step back this year.  I don't imagine that Kapanen is going to score at a 60 point pace.  I don't think Johnsson will hit 36 goals.  I think Nylander will outpace Bozak in that role.  Overall though, the production is probably going to be less than what the Leafs had this year. 

Now you can make the argument that those three lines are better defensively, but that is a hard thing to quantify.  Nylander and Johnsson are probably better defensively than JVR and Bozak, but by how much?  How much better defensively is Kapanen on the wing with Matthews than Nylander, and is that drop in production warranted? 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 28, 2018, 01:48:52 PM
Matthews has to play with either Nylander or Marner. No exceptions. I like guys like Kapanen and Johnsson as much as the next person but I watched Sundin play most of his career with middle-wingers and I don't want to watch Matthews do the same.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on June 28, 2018, 01:50:11 PM

I do think though that this discussion nicely underscores the fact that if the Leafs let JVR walk and effectively replace him with nobody it's going to be pretty hard for this team to be as balanced as they were last year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on June 28, 2018, 01:50:49 PM
Matthews has to play with either Nylander or Marner. No exceptions. I like guys like Kapanen and Johnsson as much as the next person but I watched Sundin play most of his career with middle-wingers and I don't want to watch Matthews do the same.

I agree totally with this, which is where the comments that the Leafs may not be as deep as people think come from.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 28, 2018, 01:52:13 PM
Assuming we add nobody and Babcock is forced to use Nylander at centre:

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen
Johnsson-Nylander-Brown
guy-guy-guy
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on June 28, 2018, 01:55:35 PM
Assuming we add nobody and Babcock is forced to use Nylander at centre:

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen
Johnsson-Nylander-Brown
guy-guy-guy

See at that point do you maybe go with Nylander as your number two and flip him with Kadri?  I still think that third line scores at a lower rate than the JVR-Bozak-Brown trio.  It could be offset a little if Matthews and Marner have breakout years and establish themselves in the upper echelon of the league. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 28, 2018, 01:58:11 PM
See at that point do you maybe go with Nylander as your number two and flip him with Kadri?  I still think that third line scores at a lower rate than the JVR-Bozak-Brown trio.  It could be offset a little if Matthews and Marner have breakout years and establish themselves in the upper echelon of the league. 

Well 2C vs. 3C really wouldn't be all that different, it's just that Kadri would be getting the tougher match-ups. You could swap Brown and Kapanen if you wanted.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on June 28, 2018, 02:06:34 PM
See at that point do you maybe go with Nylander as your number two and flip him with Kadri?  I still think that third line scores at a lower rate than the JVR-Bozak-Brown trio.  It could be offset a little if Matthews and Marner have breakout years and establish themselves in the upper echelon of the league. 

Well 2C vs. 3C really wouldn't be all that different, it's just that Kadri would be getting the tougher match-ups. You could swap Brown and Kapanen if you wanted.

Well I thank you sir for giving me a choice. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on June 28, 2018, 02:08:16 PM
Assuming we add nobody and Babcock is forced to use Nylander at centre:

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen
Johnsson-Nylander-Brown
guy-guy-guy

Mine:

Johnsson - Matthews - Hyman
Marleau - Kadri - Marner
[Leivo/Grundstrom/UFA] - Nylander - Kapanen

Trade Brown.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 28, 2018, 02:09:14 PM

I do think though that this discussion nicely underscores the fact that if the Leafs let JVR walk and effectively replace him with nobody it's going to be pretty hard for this team to be as balanced as they were last year.

I agree.  Bozak scored 43 pts last season.  JvR had 54.  From what I've seen of Johnsson, I feel he could comfortably be a 40+ pt guy, replacing all of Bozak's scoring.  Kapanen, on the other hand, is probably a 30-35 pt guy in a Top 9 role.... so 20-25 points is quite a drop from one of your Top 9 forward spots.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Andy on June 28, 2018, 02:15:03 PM

I do think though that this discussion nicely underscores the fact that if the Leafs let JVR walk and effectively replace him with nobody it's going to be pretty hard for this team to be as balanced as they were last year.

I agree.  Bozak scored 43 pts last season.  JvR had 54.  From what I've seen of Johnsson, I feel he could comfortably be a 40+ pt guy, replacing all of Bozak's scoring.  Kapanen, on the other hand, is probably a 30-35 pt guy in a Top 9 role.... so 20-25 points is quite a drop from one of your Top 9 forward spots.

I don't know, personally I think that replacing Bozak with a capable 3rd line center will make a world of difference. A lot of those point totals came either from PP time or at the expense of playing any type of remotely decent defense.

Subbing in some young, defensively-sound players with plenty of speed and offensive potential to that line won't hurt them at all, imo. I actually think it will make them more balanced, particularly if Babcock starts giving the stars more ice and PP time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 28, 2018, 02:28:22 PM

I do think though that this discussion nicely underscores the fact that if the Leafs let JVR walk and effectively replace him with nobody it's going to be pretty hard for this team to be as balanced as they were last year.

I agree.  Bozak scored 43 pts last season.  JvR had 54.  From what I've seen of Johnsson, I feel he could comfortably be a 40+ pt guy, replacing all of Bozak's scoring.  Kapanen, on the other hand, is probably a 30-35 pt guy in a Top 9 role.... so 20-25 points is quite a drop from one of your Top 9 forward spots.

I don't know, personally I think that replacing Bozak with a capable 3rd line center will make a world of difference. A lot of those point totals came either from PP time or at the expense of playing any type of remotely decent defense.

Subbing in some young, defensively-sound players with plenty of speed and offensive potential to that line won't hurt them at all, imo. I actually think it will make them more balanced, particularly if Babcock starts giving the stars more ice and PP time.

I think your last sentence may be the key to this discussion.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on June 28, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
Subbing in some young, defensively-sound players with plenty of speed and offensive potential to that line won't hurt them at all, imo. I actually think it will make them more balanced, particularly if Babcock starts giving the stars more ice and PP time.

Doing that would make for a differently constituted team and maybe even a better one but reverting to more of a traditional top 6/bottom 6 structure isn't what I meant by balance.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on June 28, 2018, 03:18:43 PM
Babcock doesn't run top 6/bottom 6, per se, but he does like offensive AB/defensive AB, with matchup expectations of Offensive A and scoring expectations of defensive A. Largely because he didn't trust the regular season centres for both B lines, they were the most heavily sheltered.

Last year:
Offensive A: Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Offensive B: JvR - Bozak - Marner/Brown
Defensive A: Marleau - Kadri - Marner/Komarov
Defensive B: Komarov/Johnsson - Plekanec/Moore - Kapanen
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 05, 2018, 04:07:59 PM
Dermotts comment on Nylanders latest Instagram post is  :-*

Edit: just have to wait for someone else to do the screenshot
Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on July 09, 2018, 08:21:04 PM
MattyandJohnnyandMitchyandWillyandPattyandHymieandNazzieandBrownieandKappyandMoMoandGardsandDermyandTimmahandFREDDIE...

Can you feel that? Can you feel that right there?
Strength down the middle lads. That's how we'll do it. Strength down the middle.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on July 09, 2018, 08:23:36 PM
MattyandJohnnyandMitchyandWillyandPattyandHymieandNazzieandBrownieandKappyandMoMoandGardsandDermyandTIMMAH...

Can you feel that? Can you feel that right there?
Strength down the middle lads. That's how we'll do it. Strength down the middle.
But I want a team built with Truculence and Testosterone.  Burke???
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on July 09, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
MattyandJohnnyandMitchyandWillyandPattyandHymieandNazzieandBrownieandKappyandMoMoandGardsandDermyandTIMMAH...

Can you feel that? Can you feel that right there?
Strength down the middle lads. That's how we'll do it. Strength down the middle.
But I want a team built with Truculence and Testosterone.  Burke???

Don't forget BELLIGERENCE. I believe belligerence was in there somewhere.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on July 09, 2018, 08:31:57 PM
MattyandJohnnyandMitchyandWillyandPattyandHymieandNazzieandBrownieandKappyandMoMoandGardsandDermyandTIMMAH...

Can you feel that? Can you feel that right there?
Strength down the middle lads. That's how we'll do it. Strength down the middle.
But I want a team built with Truculence and Testosterone.  Burke???

Don't forget BELLIGERENCE. I believe belligerence was in there somewhere.
True but the last time I was Belligerent I had the s__t beaten out of me.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 16, 2018, 12:42:53 PM
https://theathletic.com/433568/2018/07/16/assuming-no-big-moves-are-made-a-look-at-the-many-maple-leafs-defence-pairing-options/

I didn't write this.

Assuming no new movement to the d-corps, how would you slot them?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on July 16, 2018, 01:00:50 PM
I don't have access to the Athletic, but I might consider this:

Dermott-Rielly
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Marincin-Hainsey

I can anticipate Dermott being the most controversial, but it's more about keeping Gardiner and Rielly apart, which I think is the right move. Hainsey just doesn't have the puck-moving ability to be on the top pairing.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 16, 2018, 01:26:47 PM
How would I slot them:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Holl
Marincin - Zaitsev

How would I slot them knowing there ain't no way Babcock isn't putting Hainsey in the lineup and the chances that Holl actually make the lineup are kinda low:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev
Hainsey - Carrick

One interesting thing I learned over the summer is that Holl actually took a ton of PK shifts with the Marlies.  That might actually gain him a spot if he shows he can do it at the NHL level.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 16, 2018, 01:31:11 PM
One interesting thing I learned over the summer is that Holl actually took a ton of PK shifts with the Marlies.  That might actually gain him a spot if he shows he can do it at the NHL level.

Babcock used Marincin on the PK quite a bit whenever he was up and was always pretty complimentary of his abilities there too, so that could give him an edge as well.

I'm sorta expecting things to be fairly status-quo next seaon, at least to start:

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Marincin
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 16, 2018, 01:34:58 PM
One interesting thing I learned over the summer is that Holl actually took a ton of PK shifts with the Marlies.  That might actually gain him a spot if he shows he can do it at the NHL level.

Babcock used Marincin on the PK quite a bit whenever he was up and was always pretty complimentary of his abilities there too, so that could give him an edge as well.

I'm sorta expecting things to be fairly status-quo next seaon, at least to start:

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Marincin

I'd bet my left hand that Marincin WILL NOT be the guy to switch sides if those two are a pair.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 16, 2018, 01:36:54 PM
I'd bet my left hand that Marincin WILL NOT be the guy to switch sides if those two are a pair.

Babcock has used him on the right side previously IIRC and I think his MO is that he'll always move the "safer" guy over first, but yeah I'd prefer Dermott to be the one that shifts over.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 16, 2018, 01:45:25 PM
I'd bet my left hand that Marincin WILL NOT be the guy to switch sides if those two are a pair.

Babcock has used him on the right side previously IIRC and I think his MO is that he'll always move the "safer" guy over first, but yeah I'd prefer Dermott to be the one that shifts over.

Yes he has and the results were not very good IIRC.  Then again, Babcock could convince himself that it was more the mental side of things for Marincin and now that he seems to have gotten his confidence back he could try it again- but I'd rather not play with that fire.  If you want him to maintain his confidence, put him on his strong side.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 16, 2018, 02:26:37 PM
I'd bet my left hand that Marincin WILL NOT be the guy to switch sides if those two are a pair.

Babcock has used him on the right side previously IIRC and I think his MO is that he'll always move the "safer" guy over first, but yeah I'd prefer Dermott to be the one that shifts over.

Why would the MO be to move the safer guy? Isn't the benefit of playing strong side more on the defensive aspects of holding the line and limiting attack lanes?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 16, 2018, 02:26:41 PM
How would I slot them:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Holl
Marincin - Zaitsev

How would I slot them knowing there ain't no way Babcock isn't putting Hainsey in the lineup and the chances that Holl actually make the lineup are kinda low:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev
Hainsey - Carrick

One interesting thing I learned over the summer is that Holl actually took a ton of PK shifts with the Marlies.  That might actually gain him a spot if he shows he can do it at the NHL level.
Two seasons now and we have done nothing externally to address the D. I think our D is brutal, it's been our downfall and will continue to be so. I suppose we think we will just kill teams with possession and scoring. Probably some truth to that but we still need D.

Hainsey 2 minute penalty kills? No thanks.

Andersen will have to be our MVP with all the grenades this D corp throws. What's the Shannaplan for our D? Bouwmeester? Sbisa? Hamhuis? Emelin?

Surely something can be done to improve this group.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 16, 2018, 02:34:08 PM
How would I slot them:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Holl
Marincin - Zaitsev

This is pretty much how I'd do it too.

I'd also be open to
Rielly - Dermott
Gardiner - Holl (Minnesotaaaaaaa)/Carrick
Marincin - Zaitsev

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev/Carrick
Marincin - Holl/Carrick

PP options*: Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott, Carrick, Zaitsev
PK options: Marincin, Zaitsev, Holl, Rielly

* Seeing as how the PP is driven through the right half wall, an LD at the top of the umbrella is preferred.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on July 16, 2018, 04:34:18 PM
Anyone think Rosen could be in the lineup? From what I saw, he looked very good for the Marlies. By all acoounts, Borgman also improved a lot going down to learn the small ice surface. Is there a chance 1 of them slots in and maybe Jake or Reilly moves to the right side? How about Ozhiganov, or Holl?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on July 16, 2018, 06:14:40 PM
He was kind of raw, but I actually liked Borgman's game. I like that he hits to take the puck and he skates decently well. I actually thought for his first time over here, he did a pretty good job with the 40+ games he got.

I like Borgman over Rosen, but I'm thinking that they are going to give a few of them a good look in camp and through preseason. Ozhiganov, Holl and Borgman could take the 7th spot. I think Liljgren would have to play in the top 4 to make the team, but he could surprise.

My first choice would be to trade for a youngish top 2 guy, but we may not have the cap moving forward..
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on July 16, 2018, 11:57:34 PM
Carry 7 D and let Marincin take a bunch of PK time from Hainsey?

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev
Hainsey - Holl
Marincin
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 17, 2018, 10:05:42 AM
How would I slot them:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Holl
Marincin - Zaitsev

This is pretty much how I'd do it too.

I'd also be open to
Rielly - Dermott
Gardiner - Holl (Minnesotaaaaaaa)/Carrick
Marincin - Zaitsev

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev/Carrick
Marincin - Holl/Carrick

PP options*: Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott, Carrick, Zaitsev
PK options: Marincin, Zaitsev, Holl, Rielly

* Seeing as how the PP is driven through the right half wall, an LD at the top of the umbrella is preferred.

I'm just wondering, how do you 2 guys slot in a guy into the top-4 that has played a grand total of 2 NHL games, at age 26, that couldn't crack the roster the past 3 years?

And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects. 

Let's get a real top-4 RHS d-man that can play 20-25 minutes, and let the 6 other guys, including Holl, fight over who gets the press box for the season.

Yes, they're going to need to trade a nice asset to get that guy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 17, 2018, 10:24:37 AM
How would I slot them:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Holl
Marincin - Zaitsev

This is pretty much how I'd do it too.

I'd also be open to
Rielly - Dermott
Gardiner - Holl (Minnesotaaaaaaa)/Carrick
Marincin - Zaitsev

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev/Carrick
Marincin - Holl/Carrick

PP options*: Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott, Carrick, Zaitsev
PK options: Marincin, Zaitsev, Holl, Rielly

* Seeing as how the PP is driven through the right half wall, an LD at the top of the umbrella is preferred.

I'm just wondering, how do you 2 guys slot in a guy into the top-4 that has played a grand total of 2 NHL games, at age 26, that couldn't crack the roster the past 3 years?

And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects. 

Let's get a real top-4 RHS d-man that can play 20-25 minutes, and let the 6 other guys, including Holl, fight over who gets the press box for the season.

Yes, they're going to need to trade a nice asset to get that guy.
What he said... this group again? Really?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 17, 2018, 10:26:22 AM
And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects.

Friendly wager Frank? If Marincin is in the Leafs line-up opening night, you put "Carlton was right" in your signature for the month of October. If not I'll put "Frank was right".

*Wager void if Marincin is on the Leafs roster and injured*
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 17, 2018, 10:34:40 AM
And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects.

Friendly wager Frank? If Marincin is in the Leafs line-up opening night, you put "Carlton was right" in your signature for the month of October. If not I'll put "Frank was right".

*Wager void if Marincin is on the Leafs roster and injured*

You're on.

But I think the point I'm trying to make is, well, why would they do this again?

You go out and sign perhaps the most prominent free agent to sign in Toronto ever, and have a forward corps that can do major damage, but then back it up with recycled AHLers playing prominent minutes on your blue line? 

I just can't imagine why they'd do this.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on July 17, 2018, 10:38:54 AM
I just can't imagine why they'd do this.

Roman F'n Polak.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on July 17, 2018, 10:45:52 AM
I'm just wondering, how do you 2 guys slot in a guy into the top-4 that has played a grand total of 2 NHL games, at age 26, that couldn't crack the roster the past 3 years?

And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects. 

Let's get a real top-4 RHS d-man that can play 20-25 minutes, and let the 6 other guys, including Holl, fight over who gets the press box for the season.

Yes, they're going to need to trade a nice asset to get that guy.

I'm with you on Holl. Of course, we'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but I don't believe the magical Dubas Development Train can transform long-shots into top-quality NHLers.

On Marincin: I believe he deserves a spot in the 6th/7th position. He's a good penalty killer and can't be any worse than Polak in handling the puck. I know that "not worse than Polak" isn't exactly shooting for the moon, but I am talking about the 6th/7th spot here.

The big unknown for me is Ozighanov, Borgman, Rosen and where they fit in. Does Ozighanov challenge for the 6th spot? Is he better than that and supplants Zaitsev? Does Zaitsev actually play to the level he's capable?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 17, 2018, 10:49:29 AM
Gardiner and Carrick were really good together in 16/17, and with Babcock's preference to pair LHD with RHD, I expect him to get more ice-time this season (especially since, looking at the value of the contract he signed, management appears to believe in him). Gardiner and Zaitsev, meanwhile, were not so good together. They need to be split up.

What I expect for to start the season is something like:

Rielly-Hainsey
Gardiner-Carrick/Marincin
Dermott-Zaitsev
Marincin/Carrick

I agree with Frank on Holl - I think he's getting a little overvalued around here. To me, he seems to be more of a 6/7 at the NHL level, but a good top 4 guy for the Marlies, and I think management will prioritize his help in developing other pieces than having him play an inconsequential role on the big team. They may do the same for Marincin, but I can see Babcock wanting to keep him around as a sort of Polak replacement.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 17, 2018, 10:50:10 AM
But I think the point I'm trying to make is, well, why would they do this again?

You go out and sign perhaps the most prominent free agent to sign in Toronto ever, and have a forward corps that can do major damage, but then back it up with recycled AHLers playing prominent minutes on your blue line? 

I just can't imagine why they'd do this.

I mean I think we'd all love to have a significant upgrade on the blue line, but the Leafs are in a tough spot for that right now. For starters, we do have a cap crunch. We're either going to be right up against the cap this season or right up against the cap next season (or both), but there is a crunch. So acquiring an expensive guy like Justin Faulk who might not even really solve our problems given his skillset maybe isn't the best idea. Trading for Dougie Hamilton would have been great but we don't really have a Hanifin and Lindholm laying around to move.

We also know that they did TRY to acquire a top-4 defenceman for zero assets in Calvin de Haan, but struck out to a probably more lucrative deal. So the team clearly does recognize there's an issue there. I would expect them to be targeting a defenceman at next seasons trade deadline, but until then they probably just play the season out.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 17, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
I'm just wondering, how do you 2 guys slot in a guy into the top-4 that has played a grand total of 2 NHL games, at age 26, that couldn't crack the roster the past 3 years?

And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects. 

Let's get a real top-4 RHS d-man that can play 20-25 minutes, and let the 6 other guys, including Holl, fight over who gets the press box for the season.

Yes, they're going to need to trade a nice asset to get that guy.

I can't speak for Coco, but I liked Seth Griffith, so...

TJ Brennan's issue was he couldn't skate and also had no defensive instinct. Sure as heck could shoot the puck in the net when he had time and space though. Except that we don't need that.

It really comes down to how I'd prefer the team to play defense, i.e. try not to. So guys like Holl and Marincin, who have no/poor track record in the NHL are still value-add options over Roman Polak (and arguably Ron Hainsey forcing top minutes nightly) just by virtue of being able to do things like skate, play a gap that slows down attackers, hold the puck, pass the puck to a forward. With our forward group, that's literally all they need to do as a defenseman to be successful.

On the Cap side of things, I don't think you need a top flight 22-25 min RHD (they're like 7-10M) when you have a small fleet of 1-5M puck fetchers with strong skating skills and heads up passing. The game the Leafs play is only dependent on the defense for stopping/slowing entries, exiting the DZ, keeping the puck in the OZ, and being in position to tie up sticks in the DZ.
Title: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 17, 2018, 11:03:29 AM
I was reading Wheelers prospect rankings over at The Athletic and he mentions that he cuts his list of at the age off 22 as this is when players are done with their aging curve.

I feel like there is a misconception that players stop developing at that point because thats usually when theyre peaking physically and usually have the most exponential stage in their development.

What it doesnt account for is the level of skills development work that is happening now at the highest level, I honestly believe that with high end coaching, guys are able to propel their growth forward with hard work and careful study all through their twenties.

Now rarely is anyone going to go from no hoper to superstar, but if you can turn guys that might have been tweeners into sure thing role players who can skate in the NHL you start to give yourself more options.

Being able to flip guys like Brown and Hyman when it comes time to really pay them wont hurt as much because there will be low cost replacements.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 17, 2018, 11:05:17 AM
Holl was the Marlies' 1D and got the Rielly treatment: only even strength against top lines and PK. In spite of that deployment, he was the highest scoring defenseman on the team.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 17, 2018, 11:10:22 AM
How would I slot them:

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Holl
Marincin - Zaitsev

This is pretty much how I'd do it too.

I'd also be open to
Rielly - Dermott
Gardiner - Holl (Minnesotaaaaaaa)/Carrick
Marincin - Zaitsev

Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott - Zaitsev/Carrick
Marincin - Holl/Carrick

PP options*: Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott, Carrick, Zaitsev
PK options: Marincin, Zaitsev, Holl, Rielly

* Seeing as how the PP is driven through the right half wall, an LD at the top of the umbrella is preferred.

I'm just wondering, how do you 2 guys slot in a guy into the top-4 that has played a grand total of 2 NHL games, at age 26, that couldn't crack the roster the past 3 years?

And Marincin?  Again?  This is like TJ Brennen all over again, and that other guy I can't remember, and Corrado who was so unfairly treated but then couldn't make an NHL roster anywhere else...enough with these projects. 

Let's get a real top-4 RHS d-man that can play 20-25 minutes, and let the 6 other guys, including Holl, fight over who gets the press box for the season.

Yes, they're going to need to trade a nice asset to get that guy.

I don't have high hopes that Holl will fit into a top 4, but he played well with Dermott in the AHL so putting them together may work out well. Ideally, they're the 3rd pairing but if you do that, you're missing a couple of top four guys. So it's a stretch for sure, but it feels like a pick your poison situation and in this case, the devil we don't know is the preferred option. Of course, Holl would need to have a great camp first to be on any pairing too, so we'll know more about that devil before the season starts.

If a top-four guy was out there that we could both afford capwise and tradewise, they'd get him. If there isn't, gotta do something!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 17, 2018, 11:16:19 AM
Checking out the list of defencemen who are still UFAs, there's still over a dozen guys who could be ok depth options (although most of them are lefties). I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Dubas throws one or two of them a PTO for training camp. I'm not really convinced any of them are upgrades over what we've got, but they could be given a chance.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 17, 2018, 11:28:28 AM
I can't speak for Coco, but I liked Seth Griffith, so...

TJ Brennan's issue was he couldn't skate and also had no defensive instinct. Sure as heck could shoot the puck in the net when he had time and space though. Except that we don't need that.

Sure, but Marincin got beat on the regular in the NHL, so they shipped him to the A last time.  He wasn't on the roster for his PP skills.

It really comes down to how I'd prefer the team to play defense, i.e. try not to. So guys like Holl and Marincin, who have no/poor track record in the NHL are still value-add options over Roman Polak (and arguably Ron Hainsey forcing top minutes nightly) just by virtue of being able to do things like skate, play a gap that slows down attackers, hold the puck, pass the puck to a forward. With our forward group, that's literally all they need to do as a defenseman to be successful.

Oh good, we're still blaming Polak for all the defense problems...and we're suggesting that guys that played in the AHL last year are better options...and as Frog said, maybe we should be shooting a little higher than "they might be better than Polak".

On the Cap side of things, I don't think you need a top flight 22-25 min RHD (they're like 7-10M) when you have a small fleet of 1-5M puck fetchers with strong skating skills and heads up passing. The game the Leafs play is only dependent on the defense for stopping/slowing entries, exiting the DZ, keeping the puck in the OZ, and being in position to tie up sticks in the DZ.

Well, I don't think you need a $7m -$10m guy to upgrade you from an AHL player.  But more importantly, this "play more offense and you won't need to play defense" crap doesn't jive with what zone times are on the average, even on the best of teams.  You still need guys that can play strong at both ends of the ice, and the Leafs don't have enough of those guys on the RHS defense position. 

We need to remember that this team lost one of the best PP goal guys in the league, and although adding Tavares certainly is an upgrade, I'm not sure it's enough to get this team out of the first round, especially if the plan is to run career AHLers on the blueline.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 17, 2018, 11:32:33 AM
Holl was the Marlies' 1D and got the Rielly treatment: only even strength against top lines and PK. In spite of that deployment, he was the highest scoring defenseman on the team.

He got the Rielly treatment in the AHL.  I'm not saying that he's going to be bad, I'm saying it's not likely he's good enough to be good in the NHL, and especially on a team that has sights on a deep run this season.  I'd rather them trade a nice forward asset, or 2, for a nice RHD asset, then if by some miracle Holl can play a decent NHL shift, they'll have some depth.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 17, 2018, 11:37:55 AM
Sure, but Marincin got beat on the regular in the NHL, so they shipped him to the A last time.  He wasn't on the roster for his PP skills.

An updated view of Marincin's work will explain why some of us feel he has a place on our NHL roster.

Oh good, we're still blaming Polak for all the defense problems...and we're suggesting that guys that played in the AHL last year are better options...and as Frog said, maybe we should be shooting a little higher than "they might be better than Polak".

I'm blaming Polak-type playstyle, actually, of which he is representative. The team looked good when the defense could hold the puck a little bit longer to make a clean pass than it did just bombing it out of the zone for a couple of icings.

Well, I don't think you need a $7m -$10m guy to upgrade you from an AHL player.  But more importantly, this "play more offense and you won't need to play defense" crap doesn't jive with what zone times are on the average, even on the best of teams.  You still need guys that can play strong at both ends of the ice, and the Leafs don't have enough of those guys on the RHS defense position. 

Please name some options for acquisition that would actually be worth acquiring without costing a roster player; I'm open to transactions that provide value. Right now I only see options that are cost-prohibitive or non-needlemovers. I'd argue our right side D these last couple of seasons were only known for 'playing strong' and couldn't do enough of the other things.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 17, 2018, 12:04:04 PM
An updated view of Marincin's work will explain why some of us feel he has a place on our NHL roster.

My opinion is that I've seen enough of Marincin's work in the actual NHL to say that I don't think he's good enough for a prominent role on this team, given the goal this season.  I'd feel more comfortable with Josh Leivo playing 5 minutes a game on the fourth line than I would be Marincin or Holl playing 15.

I'm blaming Polak-type playstyle, actually, of which he is representative. The team looked good when the defense could hold the puck a little bit longer to make a clean pass than it did just bombing it out of the zone for a couple of icings.

Can't you say that about every team in the league though?

Please name some options for acquisition that would actually be worth acquiring without costing a roster player; I'm open to transactions that provide value. Right now I only see options that are cost-prohibitive or non-needlemovers. I'd argue our right side D these last couple of seasons were only known for 'playing strong' and couldn't do enough of the other things.

I'm saying that it's going to cost them a good roster player, maybe 2 to get the salaries to jive.  I have no idea who is available, I'm not an NHL GM.  What I'm arguing is that Dubas needs to find a way to upgrade this glaring hole(s) in the roster.  Good thing for him he's got some nice pieces up front to dangle as currency.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on July 17, 2018, 12:23:14 PM
Please name some options for acquisition that would actually be worth acquiring without costing a roster player; I'm open to transactions that provide value. Right now I only see options that are cost-prohibitive or non-needlemovers. I'd argue our right side D these last couple of seasons were only known for 'playing strong' and couldn't do enough of the other things.

Gudas. Pysyk. Petry. Tulloch had a column with a several options.

Anyhow, I'd be happy with
Reilly - Gardiner
Dermott - Zaitsev
Hainsey/Rosen/Borgman - Holl/Carrick/Hainsey
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on July 17, 2018, 12:39:44 PM
Gudas. Pysyk. Petry. Tulloch had a column with a several options.

Hard pass on Gudas - too high a risk of suspension to be relied upon day-in, day-out. Also, spends too much time in the penalty box (though, a good chunk of those minutes are fighting majors - so, not putting his team on the PK, but still putting his team down a defenceman for 5 minutes at a time). Would prefer to avoid Petry's contract, and what it would cost for Montreal to send him here.

Pysyk is intriguing, depending on the cost of acquisition.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 17, 2018, 12:53:22 PM
I'm blaming Polak-type playstyle, actually, of which he is representative. The team looked good when the defense could hold the puck a little bit longer to make a clean pass than it did just bombing it out of the zone for a couple of icings.

Can't you say that about every team in the league though?

Please name some options for acquisition that would actually be worth acquiring without costing a roster player; I'm open to transactions that provide value. Right now I only see options that are cost-prohibitive or non-needlemovers. I'd argue our right side D these last couple of seasons were only known for 'playing strong' and couldn't do enough of the other things.

I'm saying that it's going to cost them a good roster player, maybe 2 to get the salaries to jive.  I have no idea who is available, I'm not an NHL GM.  What I'm arguing is that Dubas needs to find a way to upgrade this glaring hole(s) in the roster.  Good thing for him he's got some nice pieces up front to dangle as currency.

If every other team has Polak-type players, wouldn't it behoove us to perhaps not?

My argument here is that we have a small stable, already in-house, of players who present marked improvements on what we've been using the past two seasons (which you don't believe, but that's because there's no NHL evidence yet). They generally play the way I'd like our defense to play, are borderline-free and can collectively hold the fort for 2+ years until trade opportunities come about or Liljegren/Sandin/etc. make the jump.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: nutman on July 17, 2018, 04:25:52 PM
I think our Defense will be fine, I see two of our prospects making the defense this season. I also think the leafs will turn out four Defense between this and next year from the Marlies.  A trade to get Defense IMHO is backwards thinking, as the issue will be unloading from our current group.

Oh Also Ozighanov could be an intresting add to the mix.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: skrackle on July 17, 2018, 11:23:07 PM
I think our Defense will be fine, I see two of our prospects making the defense this season. I also think the leafs will turn out four Defense between this and next year from the Marlies.  A trade to get Defense IMHO is backwards thinking, as the issue will be unloading from our current group.

Oh Also Ozighanov could be an intresting add to the mix.

Which two defense prospects do you see making the Leafs? I'd like to see one player make the jump and have a big impact, but I'm not sure who that would be.

Ozighanov? He's 25, but if he can somehow bring his game to an NHL level, he might be an interesting option. From what I've read, he's got size, scoring ability and apparently questionable hockey sense, so who knows?.

Right now, the Leafs have the unknown Ozighanov. They have the Marlies free agents from last year-Borgman and Rosen. They have Jeff Holl, who is a maybe. They have their potentially elite defensive prospects, Liljegren and Sandin, who are one and probably more than one season away from making the team. They've got players like Marincin who have played a bit with the Leafs, but haven't made enough impact. There is potential in that group to improve the Leafs, but I don't feel strongly that it's going to happen this season.

We are now in the dog days of the NHL offseason, so I don't expect any big moves. The Leafs will probably go into camp with what they've got to at least see where they are, but since they've added Tavares, they want to try and win right away. I expect some kind of move to improve the defense during next season.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: nutman on July 18, 2018, 06:25:15 PM
Ozighanov, Holl ,Borgman and  Rosen will all be in the mix, but who wins out.... I wouldn't even try to guess that, but I do have a real gut feeling about two new faces making the jump.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: skrackle on July 18, 2018, 10:32:19 PM
Ozighanov, Holl ,Borgman and  Rosen will all be in the mix, but who wins out.... I wouldn't even try to guess that, but I do have a real gut feeling about two new faces making the jump.

I hope you are right on that. It would certainly be a cap-friendly way of solving the Leafs defense roster issues.

The Leafs are a potentially dominant team at forward position. Goaltending? I put a question mark there, because I'm not sure what to make of Andersen. As much as I would like to, I don't watch the Leafs game-in and game-out. From what I have seen, it seems he showed up for roughly half the regular season and half of the playoff games. What's going on there? Is he over-worked? Loses focus easily? Bad D in front of him? Not that good? I'd go with overworked/defense doing him no favors, but I'm not sure.

My concern is, I can't see the Leafs winning a Cup if the back half of the team is weak, even if the front half is dominant. The Leafs have been mediocre to awful defensively since the Pat Burns era. That's a long time ago and his teams didn't even make the finals.

But hey, GM Dubas thinks the Leafs can solve most of their defensive issues internally, so maybe you are onto something.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on July 19, 2018, 06:52:32 AM
I think Andersen is a very good goalie but he suffererd a bit from fatigue down the stretch and into the playoffs. If Leafs can get a backup to play 25-30 games it'll go a long way to having Andersen fresh when the games count.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 19, 2018, 11:39:25 AM
I think Andersen is a very good goalie but he suffererd a bit from fatigue down the stretch and into the playoffs. If Leafs can get a backup to play 25-30 games it'll go a long way to having Andersen fresh when the games count.

I just had a quick glance at NHL.com stats, and according to them, Andersen played the 3rd most games of any goalie in the league at 66.  This was third only to a tie between Hellebuyck and Talbot at 67 a piece.

Also, Andersen's save % took a pretty steep nosedive into .88 territory in March, which was well below the .91-.92 he was maintaining for most of the season, save a garbage October. 

So there might be some evidence of fatigue there, and most of the starters in the league (the good ones anyway) were 50+ games.  Having said that, 12 goalies played 60 or more.

So maybe there is some value in resting Andersen an extra 5-10 games over last season, given his drop off in March.  What kind of surprises me is that Babcock didn't play McElhinney more often, because he was actually pretty damn good.  Maybe he was injured, and they didn't want to aggravate something, I don't know.  It just didn't make much sense to ride Andersen so hard, they were in a comfortable playoff position.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 19, 2018, 12:08:50 PM
I think Andersen is a very good goalie but he suffererd a bit from fatigue down the stretch and into the playoffs. If Leafs can get a backup to play 25-30 games it'll go a long way to having Andersen fresh when the games count.

I just had a quick glance at NHL.com stats, and according to them, Andersen played the 3rd most games of any goalie in the league at 66.  This was third only to a tie between Hellebuyck and Talbot at 67 a piece.

Also, Andersen's save % took a pretty steep nosedive into .88 territory in March, which was well below the .91-.92 he was maintaining for most of the season, save a garbage October. 

So there might be some evidence of fatigue there, and most of the starters in the league (the good ones anyway) were 50+ games.  Having said that, 12 goalies played 60 or more.

So maybe there is some value in resting Andersen an extra 5-10 games over last season, given his drop off in March.  What kind of surprises me is that Babcock didn't play McElhinney more often, because he was actually pretty damn good.  Maybe he was injured, and they didn't want to aggravate something, I don't know.  It just didn't make much sense to ride Andersen so hard, they were in a comfortable playoff position.

More than a few of Babcock's lineup choices were inscrutable.

If McElhinney doesn't have his trust, then they need to get someone who does, because I agree, Andersen needs more time off.  I would even venture to say, in the league as it is now, it is more tiring to play goal than it was when Brodeur was playing essentially every game.  The pace is much faster, I'm guessing there is more over-the-royal-road passing, there's more puck-tracking (or whatever that techniques is called) etc.

Would Babs trust Sparks?  Who knows.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 19, 2018, 12:43:17 PM
I think Andersen is a very good goalie but he suffererd a bit from fatigue down the stretch and into the playoffs. If Leafs can get a backup to play 25-30 games it'll go a long way to having Andersen fresh when the games count.

I just had a quick glance at NHL.com stats, and according to them, Andersen played the 3rd most games of any goalie in the league at 66.  This was third only to a tie between Hellebuyck and Talbot at 67 a piece.

Also, Andersen's save % took a pretty steep nosedive into .88 territory in March, which was well below the .91-.92 he was maintaining for most of the season, save a garbage October. 

So there might be some evidence of fatigue there, and most of the starters in the league (the good ones anyway) were 50+ games.  Having said that, 12 goalies played 60 or more.

So maybe there is some value in resting Andersen an extra 5-10 games over last season, given his drop off in March.  What kind of surprises me is that Babcock didn't play McElhinney more often, because he was actually pretty damn good.  Maybe he was injured, and they didn't want to aggravate something, I don't know.  It just didn't make much sense to ride Andersen so hard, they were in a comfortable playoff position.

More than a few of Babcock's lineup choices were inscrutable.

If McElhinney doesn't have his trust, then they need to get someone who does, because I agree, Andersen needs more time off.  I would even venture to say, in the league as it is now, it is more tiring to play goal than it was when Brodeur was playing essentially every game.  The pace is much faster, I'm guessing there is more over-the-royal-road passing, there's more puck-tracking (or whatever that techniques is called) etc.

Would Babs trust Sparks?  Who knows.

Yeah, that's why I was wondering if McElhinney had some lingering injury issues or something, because his numbers were solid, and so trust really shouldn't have been an issue...especially with where they were in the playoff race.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 19, 2018, 01:08:14 PM
I think Andersen is a very good goalie but he suffererd a bit from fatigue down the stretch and into the playoffs. If Leafs can get a backup to play 25-30 games it'll go a long way to having Andersen fresh when the games count.
13 back-to-back games so 69 games for Andersen this year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 19, 2018, 01:08:29 PM
Yeah, that's why I was wondering if McElhinney had some lingering injury issues or something, because his numbers were solid, and so trust really shouldn't have been an issue...especially with where they were in the playoff race.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one: Andersen played that many games because Babcock wanted him to.

If there were some kind of injury issue Sparks could have been brought up while McBackup went on the IR for general old-person soreness or whatever.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 19, 2018, 01:52:41 PM
Justin Bourne had an interesting line in an article he wrote the other day about what analytics guys on NHL teams do. The article itself isn't really important to my point so don't worry about not reading it:

"Maybe the data say that a certain two D are best when together, but that coach knows that when they play together, it messes up the personnel groups he prefers on special teams."

He didn't expand on this really, but it made me think of our calls for Gardiner and Rielly to play together and how that probably won't happen as long as they're both anchoring the PP units. If they're both on the ice on a long shift that draws a penalty, then neither of them can start on the powerplay. Sure, you could throw Dermott or Zaitsev or Carrick out there, but it throws things off enough that if it happens consistently it becomes an issue.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on July 19, 2018, 01:55:45 PM
I think Andersen is a very good goalie but he suffererd a bit from fatigue down the stretch and into the playoffs. If Leafs can get a backup to play 25-30 games it'll go a long way to having Andersen fresh when the games count.

I just had a quick glance at NHL.com stats, and according to them, Andersen played the 3rd most games of any goalie in the league at 66.  This was third only to a tie between Hellebuyck and Talbot at 67 a piece.

Also, Andersen's save % took a pretty steep nosedive into .88 territory in March, which was well below the .91-.92 he was maintaining for most of the season, save a garbage October. 

So there might be some evidence of fatigue there, and most of the starters in the league (the good ones anyway) were 50+ games.  Having said that, 12 goalies played 60 or more.

So maybe there is some value in resting Andersen an extra 5-10 games over last season, given his drop off in March.  What kind of surprises me is that Babcock didn't play McElhinney more often, because he was actually pretty damn good.  Maybe he was injured, and they didn't want to aggravate something, I don't know.  It just didn't make much sense to ride Andersen so hard, they were in a comfortable playoff position.

I know that traditionally the NHL has always liked that true #1 starter who plays 65+ games and the backup only picks up the scraps on back to backs and what not.  There are so many things that are changing with the NHL nowadays though so I wonder if that kind of thinking will eventually go by the wayside.  With all the effort and research that goes into sports science, and how getting enough rest can help athletes maintain peak performance levels when they play, I have to think that they'll be going to a more split approach for goalies playing games in the future.  Not to say it'll be 50/50 split in starts, but instead of having a great #1 goalie and a passable backup, maybe the trend will be to have 2 guys that are above average goalies and will play a more balanced split of games.  Let's say the starter plays 50-55 starts and the backup somewhere between 27-32 starts.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 19, 2018, 05:21:04 PM
If they cut 10 games from Andersen, and his decline began in March last year. Won't his decline just start in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs? I mean he has to be able to play 75ish games to win a cup doesn't he?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 19, 2018, 05:22:45 PM
If they cut 10 games from Andersen, and his decline began in March last year. Won't his decline just start in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs? I mean he has to be able to play 75ish games to win a cup doesn't he?

Its a matter of not having enough off days to recover.  Playing 70 games in a 7 month stretch is harder than playing 70 games in a 8 month stretch.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 19, 2018, 08:17:54 PM
If they cut 10 games from Andersen, and his decline began in March last year. Won't his decline just start in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs? I mean he has to be able to play 75ish games to win a cup doesn't he?

Its a matter of not having enough off days to recover.  Playing 70 games in a 7 month stretch is harder than playing 70 games in a 8 month stretch.

Sure, but if he's getting to the brink and then has to play every other night for 8 weeks with random gaps between series. That's a lot. If he wore out after 60+ games and 20 playoff games it would be one thing. But to wear out with a month left in the season, if wear is the issue, I'm a little concerned.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: freer on July 19, 2018, 11:45:46 PM
I am not sure why Babcock does not play McBackup more often, he is a capable goalie, who in his 18 starts had a better save percentage then Andersen. Give him another 7 starts then Andersen will not have any issue with been tired in late Mar/Apr.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on July 20, 2018, 12:34:55 AM
I am not sure why Babcock does not play McBackup more often, he is a capable goalie, who in his 18 starts had a better save percentage then Andersen. Give him another 7 starts then Andersen will not have any issue with been tired in late Mar/Apr.
McBackup might not even be with the Leafs. I don't see Sparks and/or Pickard clearing waivers so unless Dubas trades one of our goalies I think they may expose McBackup instead of trying to slide Sparks through. Like always tho, we'll see.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on July 20, 2018, 09:55:41 AM
I am not sure why Babcock does not play McBackup more often, he is a capable goalie, who in his 18 starts had a better save percentage then Andersen. Give him another 7 starts then Andersen will not have any issue with been tired in late Mar/Apr.
McBackup might not even be with the Leafs. I don't see Sparks and/or Pickard clearing waivers so unless Dubas trades one of our goalies I think they may expose McBackup instead of trying to slide Sparks through. Like always tho, we'll see.

If all 3 can't be slid through waivers how do they keep 2?   Let's say Sparks stays up as the backup, they put both McBackup and Pickard on waivers to send down to the Marlies?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on July 20, 2018, 10:01:54 AM
I am not sure why Babcock does not play McBackup more often, he is a capable goalie, who in his 18 starts had a better save percentage then Andersen. Give him another 7 starts then Andersen will not have any issue with been tired in late Mar/Apr.
McBackup might not even be with the Leafs. I don't see Sparks and/or Pickard clearing waivers so unless Dubas trades one of our goalies I think they may expose McBackup instead of trying to slide Sparks through. Like always tho, we'll see.

This is certainly what I hope they do -- keep Sparks. McBackup and Pickard to the Marlies.  McBackup was great last year, but my guess is that it was a bit of fluke.  Goalies are unpredictable but he certainly should be on the downside of his career -- a career that outside last year was generally below average.  The league is awash with backup goaltenders.  It is unlikely both are snapped up.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 20, 2018, 10:14:37 AM
If all 3 can't be slid through waivers how do they keep 2?   Let's say Sparks stays up as the backup, they put both McBackup and Pickard on waivers to send down to the Marlies?

I expect this to be the plan. Pickard likely clears, his body of work in the AHL last season wasn't large/impressive enough for someone to think he's a massive upgrade over their current back-up. I'd say it's probably 70/30 that McBackup clears waivers too. You look at the goalie depth charts (https://www.thegoalieguild.com/depthcharts/) from around the league and it's very difficult to find too many teams who would take McBackup over their current backup. There's 5 or 6 that I'd say are maybes but all of them have younger guys who could definitely be ready to fill that role. If they implode during training camp though it could open up a spot.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 20, 2018, 10:26:21 AM
If they cut 10 games from Andersen, and his decline began in March last year. Won't his decline just start in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs? I mean he has to be able to play 75ish games to win a cup doesn't he?

Its a matter of not having enough off days to recover.  Playing 70 games in a 7 month stretch is harder than playing 70 games in a 8 month stretch.

Sure, but if he's getting to the brink and then has to play every other night for 8 weeks with random gaps between series. That's a lot. If he wore out after 60+ games and 20 playoff games it would be one thing. But to wear out with a month left in the season, if wear is the issue, I'm a little concerned.

I think you're missing the point.  If they can start the backup in 10 or so more games, Andersen theoretically wouldn't be at "the brink", and would be able to handle the playoffs more easily because he wouldn't be worn down.  It's not a total games started issue, it's a total games started in a more compressed time issue.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 20, 2018, 11:14:14 AM
If they cut 10 games from Andersen, and his decline began in March last year. Won't his decline just start in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs? I mean he has to be able to play 75ish games to win a cup doesn't he?

Its a matter of not having enough off days to recover.  Playing 70 games in a 7 month stretch is harder than playing 70 games in a 8 month stretch.

Sure, but if he's getting to the brink and then has to play every other night for 8 weeks with random gaps between series. That's a lot. If he wore out after 60+ games and 20 playoff games it would be one thing. But to wear out with a month left in the season, if wear is the issue, I'm a little concerned.

I think you're missing the point.  If they can start the backup in 10 or so more games, Andersen theoretically wouldn't be at "the brink", and would be able to handle the playoffs more easily because he wouldn't be worn down.  It's not a total games started issue, it's a total games started in a more compressed time issue.

Isn't the playoffs more games in a shorter period of time than the regular season?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 20, 2018, 01:09:44 PM
Justin Bourne had an interesting line in an article he wrote the other day about what analytics guys on NHL teams do. The article itself isn't really important to my point so don't worry about not reading it:

"Maybe the data say that a certain two D are best when together, but that coach knows that when they play together, it messes up the personnel groups he prefers on special teams."

He didn't expand on this really, but it made me think of our calls for Gardiner and Rielly to play together and how that probably won't happen as long as they're both anchoring the PP units. If they're both on the ice on a long shift that draws a penalty, then neither of them can start on the powerplay. Sure, you could throw Dermott or Zaitsev or Carrick out there, but it throws things off enough that if it happens consistently it becomes an issue.

Good observation.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 20, 2018, 01:14:02 PM
Isn't the playoffs more games in a shorter period of time than the regular season?

82 games in 185 days.  About 0.45 games per day.

Playoffs, worst case, is 28 games in ~70 days.  About 0.4 games per day IF you end up going through four 7 game series. 

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 20, 2018, 05:39:03 PM
Isn't the playoffs more games in a shorter period of time than the regular season?

82 games in 185 days.  About 0.45 games per day.

Playoffs, worst case, is 28 games in ~70 days.  About 0.4 games per day IF you end up going through four 7 game series.

Yeah but Andersen doesnt play 82 games. Say he plays 69, which means all but back to backs. That's .37 a day. So as long as we're not going to a bunch of 7s he's fine!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 20, 2018, 05:40:32 PM
And the story is he was burnt out last year. If he's rate per day was .37, then that's to much. And playoffs could be .4?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on July 20, 2018, 09:45:35 PM
I find it hard to believe that there isn't more relevant mainstream individual stats for goalies than Save% and GAA. So much help is given to goalies on teams that have defense that can limit true chances, keep shots visible and to the outside, etc... those metrics could almost be considered a team defensive stat than for a goaltender.

My eye test last year was that Anderson was probably the team's MVP last season. He won them games they had no business winning, and the defense regularly gave up grade A scoring chances at critical times in the games. Yes, they probably overplayed him a bit. But the games they lost in the playoffs were a team losses, not gifts from Freddie, unless the expectation is that he stands on his head every single night.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 20, 2018, 11:26:44 PM
I find it hard to believe that there isn't more relevant mainstream individual stats for goalies than Save% and GAA. So much help is given to goalies on teams that have defense that can limit true chances, keep shots visible and to the outside, etc... those metrics could almost be considered a team defensive stat than for a goaltender.

My eye test last year was that Anderson was probably the team's MVP last season. He won them games they had no business winning, and the defense regularly gave up grade A scoring chances at critical times in the games. Yes, they probably overplayed him a bit. But the games they lost in the playoffs were a team losses, not gifts from Freddie, unless the expectation is that he stands on his head every single night.

Yeah, he was pretty bad in Games 1 and 2 against BOS but the whole team was beyond awful.  For all my caterwauling about Gardiner in G7 the other day you can probably throw that one in the same pile.

Those were 3 horriblehorriblehorrible road playoff games.  In a word, they were horriblow.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 22, 2018, 02:24:10 PM
I know some won't bother with this, but this one is worth spending a freebie on:
https://theathletic.com/439618/2018/07/21/the-goalie-business-plan-behind-leafs-goalie-coach-steve-brieres-model-for-success/

Since he was added to the Leafs' staff, our goalies have seen a turnaround in consistency, and I believe a large part of our recent success between the pipes has to do with Steve Briere's approach between the ears.

Quote
Even if you know nothing about goaltending, there are pillars to goaltending that you do know. If you say you dont, thats a cop-out. Goaltending is no different than business. I always ask the goalies in the summer who train with me for their training program so far and they say well, I wake up at 9 a.m., I go to the gym, I work out, then I go on the ice, then I go for lunch, then I usually go for a round of golf, and then I hang out with my buddies and play Fortnite all night and then I say How much of the game is mental? and they say its 90 per cent of the game and I say youre right, it is. And then I say: When did you work on the mental side of the game? Briere explained.

Goalies only start to work on the mental side when they start struggling. The problem with that is its too late. You try to talk to a goalie when hes struggling, he doesnt care about half the things youre saying to him. Thats something that we need to work on every single day.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on July 22, 2018, 04:30:14 PM
It's 90% mental is such a cop-out of a cliche, too. Obviously the higher up we get in sports, the smaller the gap in the physical side, but to suggest it's down to 10% is just silly to me.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on July 22, 2018, 04:33:08 PM
It's 90% mental is such a cop-out of a cliche, too. Obviously the higher up we get in sports, the smaller the gap in the physical side, but to suggest it's down to 10% is just silly to me.

Whenever I hear something like that I just read it as complete and total self-aggrandisement. The reason that these guys succeed isn't that they're better athletes than the other guys, no indeed, it's that they're better people.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 22, 2018, 06:31:05 PM
It's 90% mental is such a cop-out of a cliche, too. Obviously the higher up we get in sports, the smaller the gap in the physical side, but to suggest it's down to 10% is just silly to me.

Whenever I hear something like that I just read it as complete and total self-aggrandisement. The reason that these guys succeed isn't that they're better athletes than the other guys, no indeed, it's that they're better people.

Doesn't that come from their hearts?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 22, 2018, 06:53:11 PM
It's 90% mental is such a cop-out of a cliche, too. Obviously the higher up we get in sports, the smaller the gap in the physical side, but to suggest it's down to 10% is just silly to me.

Whenever I hear something like that I just read it as complete and total self-aggrandisement. The reason that these guys succeed isn't that they're better athletes than the other guys, no indeed, it's that they're better people.

Doesn't that come from their hearts?

No no, you guys have it all wrong. It's all about motivation. Anybody can be like Crosby, they just need to be motivated.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 22, 2018, 07:45:50 PM
It's 90% mental is such a cop-out of a cliche, too. Obviously the higher up we get in sports, the smaller the gap in the physical side, but to suggest it's down to 10% is just silly to me.

Whenever I hear something like that I just read it as complete and total self-aggrandisement. The reason that these guys succeed isn't that they're better athletes than the other guys, no indeed, it's that they're better people.

Doesn't that come from their hearts?

No no, you guys have it all wrong. It's all about motivation. Anybody can be like Crosby, they just need to be motivated.

Gall bladder?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on July 22, 2018, 10:41:37 PM
It's proven; the more you give to charity, the faster you can skate.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 09:55:29 AM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/7/23/17595564/toronto-maple-leafs-auston-matthews-goals-nhl-debut-elite-nhl-stats-toronto-maple-leafs-analysis

Quote
Whats incredibly unique about Matthews is exactly how he does it. Broadly speaking, there are three ways to excel as a scorer.
  • Shoot more than average (shot generation)
  • Shoot proportionally more from great locations / positions (shot selection)
  • Convert more shots to goals, independent of location / positions (shot efficiency)
Matthews does all of them.

Not really highlighted in the above article is how Matthews scores. Elite scorers often largely rely on one or two well-honed shots (Ovi/Laine/Stamkos one-timer from the circle off a Royal Road pass, for example). He can fling a catch and release wrister, slip a five-hole with a quick angle change, dangle through traffic, put in a one-handed high-slot tip pass, bulldoze through a maze of legs to shelf a puck backhand, the list goes on.

In an injury shortened season, Matthews produced at a better rate than his Calder Trophy season. This year, with the shelter of Kadri at home and Tavares on the road, we could see ridiculous numbers at, once again, paltry ice time relative to traditional 1C deployment.

Tavares and Kadri are also similar in that they also make the majority of their shots (and goals) from the slot.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on July 23, 2018, 10:34:50 AM
It's 90% mental is such a cop-out of a cliche, too. Obviously the higher up we get in sports, the smaller the gap in the physical side, but to suggest it's down to 10% is just silly to me.

Whenever I hear something like that I just read it as complete and total self-aggrandisement. The reason that these guys succeed isn't that they're better athletes than the other guys, no indeed, it's that they're better people.

Doesn't that come from their hearts?

No no, you guys have it all wrong. It's all about motivation. Anybody can be like Crosby, they just need to be motivated.

The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 10:45:03 AM
The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...

There's also stuff about how goalies tend to be coached in the feeder leagues, where they are basically... not. The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 23, 2018, 11:38:58 AM
The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...

There's also stuff about how goalies tend to be coached in the feeder leagues, where they are basically... not. The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.

What are we referring to when mentioning "Feeder Leagues"?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 11:43:52 AM
The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...

There's also stuff about how goalies tend to be coached in the feeder leagues, where they are basically... not. The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.

What are we referring to when mentioning "Feeder Leagues"?

There was a specific anecdote referring to a GTHL practice. Feeder leagues is just a catch-all term I chose.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 23, 2018, 11:45:09 AM
The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...

There's also stuff about how goalies tend to be coached in the feeder leagues, where they are basically... not. The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.

What are we referring to when mentioning "Feeder Leagues"?

There was a specific anecdote referring to a GTHL practice. Feeder leagues is just a catch-all term I chose.

I really should go back a bit further in the thread.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 23, 2018, 11:57:27 AM
The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.

I think this is changing quickly.

When I played net 25 years ago, there was next to no coaching during practices for us goalies. We basically had to search out the local goalie coach and pay for tutoring out of our own pocket.

5-10 years after I left, I saw an increase in demand for coaches that knew how to work with goalies. This was coming more now from teams as opposed to parents. Today, on rep teams, a goalie coach is almost expected. We also put aside hundreds of dollars from our budget that goes towards our goalie training as well. Entire organizations also work out plans with local training facilities to once again work on the goalies.

In a typical practice I run for my daughter's competitive team, I allow 30 minutes for our goalie coach to work specifically with the goalies. The coach then stays on the ice for the remaining hour to continue to help out with only the goalies.

Coaches certainly do expect results from their goalies. Finally most of them have realized that proper coaching is what is needed.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 11:57:41 AM
The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...

There's also stuff about how goalies tend to be coached in the feeder leagues, where they are basically... not. The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.

Briere is of the mind that "a confident goaltender is better than a good one any day of the week" so his development plans are designed to support building that confidence and mindset in his goalies. Like a lot of business/management seminars, it is predicated on determining the player's personality profile, establishing positive perspectives techniques, building up a foundation of achievable 'wins' in terms of daily goals. Briere culls a lot of these methodologies from non-hockey sources.

This article was written largely off of Briere's recent presentation he delivered at a conference, as the Leafs currently do not allow direct media access to support staff.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 02:13:49 PM
https://theathletic.com/442342/2018/07/23/bourne-on-band-aid-players-and-why-thell-make-the-maple-leafs-forwards-even-better-than-you-think/

Quote
[Some] coaches are lucky enough to have what I call Band-Aid Players. When youre not a super deep team, not every line can be great. But if you have a Band-Aid player, you can put him with two guys who are the equivalent of open wounds, and that line will suddenly look a whole lot better. There were plenty of times discussions involved the phrase Well, should we give those two [Band-Aid Player]? As in, They need a boost, maybe they should get some help in the form of [Band-Aid Player].

Guess which three forwards are Band-Aid Players.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 23, 2018, 02:23:08 PM
https://theathletic.com/442342/2018/07/23/bourne-on-band-aid-players-and-why-thell-make-the-maple-leafs-forwards-even-better-than-you-think/

Quote
[Some] coaches are lucky enough to have what I call Band-Aid Players. When youre not a super deep team, not every line can be great. But if you have a Band-Aid player, you can put him with two guys who are the equivalent of open wounds, and that line will suddenly look a whole lot better. There were plenty of times discussions involved the phrase Well, should we give those two [Band-Aid Player]? As in, They need a boost, maybe they should get some help in the form of [Band-Aid Player].

Guess which three forwards are Band-Aid Players.
Marner, Marleau, and Kapanen?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: louisstamos on July 23, 2018, 02:26:51 PM
https://theathletic.com/442342/2018/07/23/bourne-on-band-aid-players-and-why-thell-make-the-maple-leafs-forwards-even-better-than-you-think/

Quote
[Some] coaches are lucky enough to have what I call Band-Aid Players. When youre not a super deep team, not every line can be great. But if you have a Band-Aid player, you can put him with two guys who are the equivalent of open wounds, and that line will suddenly look a whole lot better. There were plenty of times discussions involved the phrase Well, should we give those two [Band-Aid Player]? As in, They need a boost, maybe they should get some help in the form of [Band-Aid Player].

Guess which three forwards are Band-Aid Players.

I would say Marner, Marleau and Brown.  I remember Brown getting put on the Bozak/JVR line as he's viewed as good defensively.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 02:43:39 PM
Marner, Marleau, and Kapanen?

I would say Marner, Marleau and Brown.  I remember Brown getting put on the Bozak/JVR line as he's viewed as good defensively.

I really could rephrase it as which players do you think are the coach's favourites to play too high in the line up.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 23, 2018, 02:47:27 PM
Marner, Marleau, and Kapanen?

I would say Marner, Marleau and Brown.  I remember Brown getting put on the Bozak/JVR line as he's viewed as good defensively.

I really could rephrase it as which players do you think are the coach's favourites to play too high in the line up.
Hyman and Brown... no idea of a third that plays to high since we're pretty deep.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: louisstamos on July 23, 2018, 02:53:13 PM
Marner, Marleau, and Kapanen?

I would say Marner, Marleau and Brown.  I remember Brown getting put on the Bozak/JVR line as he's viewed as good defensively.

I really could rephrase it as which players do you think are the coach's favourites to play too high in the line up.

Oh God, it's Komarov, isn't it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 02:53:46 PM
Oh God, it's Komarov, isn't it.

Formerly, yeah, that'd be accurate. I'd throw Martin on that boat too.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 02:59:59 PM
The three Band-Aids, as Justin Bourne terms them, are Hyman, Brown, and Johnsson.

Plays hard every shift and practice, almost always in the right place at the right time on top of the play, does it without complaint because they're just happy to be there and happy to help.

I think Marleau is aging gracefully into this role, where he was once the go-to skill option.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 23, 2018, 03:03:58 PM
Dobberhockey already trademarked (not actually) the term for band-aid players with a completely different definition so that was a confusing article to me.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 03:08:03 PM
Dobberhockey already trademarked (not actually) the term for band-aid players with a completely different definition so that was a confusing article to me.

https://dobberhockey.com/hockey-home/the-dobotomy/nhl-band-aid-boys-injury-prone/ these guys?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 23, 2018, 03:10:30 PM
Dobberhockey already trademarked (not actually) the term for band-aid players with a completely different definition so that was a confusing article to me.

https://dobberhockey.com/hockey-home/the-dobotomy/nhl-band-aid-boys-injury-prone/ these guys?

Yeah. Pick a new term Bourne!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 23, 2018, 03:16:01 PM
The three Band-Aids, as Justin Bourne terms them, are Hyman, Brown, and Johnsson.

Plays hard every shift and practice, almost always in the right place at the right time on top of the play, does it without complaint because they're just happy to be there and happy to help.

I think Marleau is aging gracefully into this role, where he was once the go-to skill option.
Brown and Hyman were our best players for the first 2 games of the playoffs. They're just flat our consistent and work hard... don't necessarily have that high end skill but real gud pros.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 23, 2018, 03:18:08 PM
The three Band-Aids, as Justin Bourne terms them, are Hyman, Brown, and Johnsson.

Plays hard every shift and practice, almost always in the right place at the right time on top of the play, does it without complaint because they're just happy to be there and happy to help.

I think Marleau is aging gracefully into this role, where he was once the go-to skill option.
I would not group Johnsson with those 2 skill wise but I do see the comparison from a work ethic and without complaint thing.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 23, 2018, 03:32:22 PM
A while ago on TSN radio they were taking calls about what the Leafs should give out in the dressing to the player of the game. The consensus best recommendation were thick Dubas style glasses. I think it would be hilarious.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 23, 2018, 03:33:40 PM
Dobberhockey already trademarked (not actually) the term for band-aid players with a completely different definition so that was a confusing article to me.

https://dobberhockey.com/hockey-home/the-dobotomy/nhl-band-aid-boys-injury-prone/ these guys?

Yeah. Pick a new term Bourne!

I would have personally termed them Josh Grobans.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 23, 2018, 03:41:14 PM
The way I read this is that a lot of a goalie's skill set is fixed already (genetics; age 5-20 development), their physical work habits at this level are typically pretty good or they wouldn't be here, but they have been exposed to no mental training and it makes a bigger difference than you'd expect.  It would be cool if they could actually measure the difference (eg: a decrease in "bad goals"/game?) ... I haven't read the article ...

There's also stuff about how goalies tend to be coached in the feeder leagues, where they are basically... not. The line rushes and skills and systems work that the teams do as a whole are pretty much not applicable to replicating game situations for goalies, so most coaches just kind of leave them off to do their own thing, but also have high expectations for them.

Briere is of the mind that "a confident goaltender is better than a good one any day of the week"

I would think that his thinking is more of the mind that a confident good goalie is better than a great goalie with no confidence. See Jose Theodore as an example. Once he couldn't use steroids for his hair anymore, he was more worried about going bald than stopping the puck ;)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 23, 2018, 03:49:04 PM
The three Band-Aids, as Justin Bourne terms them, are Hyman, Brown, and Johnsson.

Plays hard every shift and practice, almost always in the right place at the right time on top of the play, does it without complaint because they're just happy to be there and happy to help.

I think Marleau is aging gracefully into this role, where he was once the go-to skill option.

Yeah, and I think this is one of those things that we fans never really know anything about - the management of personalities that a coach has to balance.

Like any manager of people experiences, you have some people that are maintenance free, and some that are high maintenance. 

Fans never know which ones are which, so we go off on coaches in terms of their shift management, when often times there are reasons that players are deployed in a certain way, or how often.  And it's not like a coach can say "well we did that because Whiny McWhiner was complaining that he wasn't getting enough OZ shifts, but he couldn't backcheck to save his life, so we needed a defensive guy on that line to babysit him."
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 23, 2018, 03:56:56 PM
A while ago on TSN radio they were taking calls about what the Leafs should give out in the dressing to the player of the game. The consensus best recommendation were thick Dubas style glasses. I think it would be hilarious.

I think it should be this:

(https://scene7.zumiez.com/is/image/zumiez/pdp_hero/Neff-Brown-Bearded-Face-Mask-_213238-front.jpg)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 26, 2018, 10:55:24 AM
Any Leaf fans "cut the cord" in the Ontario region and are still able to watch ALL Leafs games? I have fantastic internet now and I want to save money on TV. I want a high quality stream and I am willing to pay.

I think my options are TSN Direct (26 games) combined with SN Now (56 games) at $24.99 each.

Rogers NHL Live only offered 40 games last year. I guess there is a way to monkey with the VPN to bypass the blackout but that sounds high maintenance and techy? Is that hard to do? I feel like Rogers will figure out away to stop it.

I am done with Bell, I pay $115 for tv a month for PVR rentals and programing (no movies).

I like my Blue Jays and my highlights so I am thinking 12 months of SN Now per year and 6 months of TSN Direct (Oct-Mar) for their Leaf games. Throw on premium Netflix at $13.99 per month for the rest of my TV needs. Total cost $618 per year vs $1,380 I pay now.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2018, 11:21:16 AM
I used TSN and Sportsnet's streaming services from time to time last season and even though I have pretty good internet speeds I wasn't really that impressed with the quality. Honestly the youtube streams of games you can find on reddit and stuff were pretty much on par unfortunately.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on July 26, 2018, 11:40:19 AM
I used TSN and Sportsnet's streaming services from time to time last season and even though I have pretty good internet speeds I wasn't really that impressed with the quality. Honestly the youtube streams of games you can find on reddit and stuff were pretty much on par unfortunately.

I used tsn and sportnet  almost exclusively, but once in a while I had trouble, so I flipped to reddit and the quality was much better on the reddit streams. But they would break on me from time to time and tsn and sportsnet didn't do that, not often anyway.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 26, 2018, 01:06:11 PM
I used TSN and Sportsnet's streaming services from time to time last season and even though I have pretty good internet speeds I wasn't really that impressed with the quality. Honestly the youtube streams of games you can find on reddit and stuff were pretty much on par unfortunately.

I used tsn and sportnet  almost exclusively, but once in a while I had trouble, so I flipped to reddit and the quality was much better on the reddit streams. But they would break on me from time to time and tsn and sportsnet didn't do that, not often anyway.

I used Sportsnet and TSN streaming exclusively as well.  The biggest benefit of the Sportsnet Now app is you can pause/rewind the game.  So, often I'd watch the first period and pause it at some point in the 2nd when it was time to put my daughter to bed.. and then resume the game once I was done with that.

TSN app that wasn't possible last season.  However, with their new streaming service I have been able to do that with Tennis matches so I'd expect that to hold up for next season for Leafs and Raptors games.

I found the quality to be very good for an internet stream and I haven't even hard-wired my Apple TV yet. 

Nothing beats the HNIC broadcasts on Saturday nights with the bunny ears though.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 26, 2018, 01:14:03 PM
When do the deals come out for this sort of stuff?  Like August/September?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2018, 01:35:39 PM
When do the deals come out for this sort of stuff?  Like August/September?

For the TSN and Sportsnet streaming platforms? I really don't think they go on sale. I can only find one instance in the last few years and that was for a students-only deal for Sportsnet Now.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 26, 2018, 01:42:41 PM
When do the deals come out for this sort of stuff?  Like August/September?

For the TSN and Sportsnet streaming platforms? I really don't think they go on sale. I can only find one instance in the last few years and that was for a students-only deal for Sportsnet Now.

Hmm, I guess I thought they put on a deal for the hockey season.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2018, 01:50:13 PM
Hmm, I guess I thought they put on a deal for the hockey season.

I believe you've confused Bell and Rogers for companies who give a damn.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 26, 2018, 02:14:50 PM
I wouldn't mind paying for streams if they are decent and reliable.  But would I have to use a VPN to access from the States?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 26, 2018, 02:17:55 PM
I used TSN and Sportsnet's streaming services from time to time last season and even though I have pretty good internet speeds I wasn't really that impressed with the quality. Honestly the youtube streams of games you can find on reddit and stuff were pretty much on par unfortunately.

I used tsn and sportnet  almost exclusively, but once in a while I had trouble, so I flipped to reddit and the quality was much better on the reddit streams. But they would break on me from time to time and tsn and sportsnet didn't do that, not often anyway.

I used Sportsnet and TSN streaming exclusively as well.  The biggest benefit of the Sportsnet Now app is you can pause/rewind the game.  So, often I'd watch the first period and pause it at some point in the 2nd when it was time to put my daughter to bed.. and then resume the game once I was done with that.

TSN app that wasn't possible last season.  However, with their new streaming service I have been able to do that with Tennis matches so I'd expect that to hold up for next season for Leafs and Raptors games.

I found the quality to be very good for an internet stream and I haven't even hard-wired my Apple TV yet. 

Nothing beats the HNIC broadcasts on Saturday nights with the bunny ears though.
TSN's streaming platform without a tv subscrition is an new product June 2018? Your already subscribed or were you watching via a tv subscription login?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2018, 02:21:54 PM
I wouldn't mind paying for streams if they are decent and reliable.  But would I have to use a VPN to access from the States?

I believe you would, yeah. But again, reddit streams are just as good in terms of quality. I can't imagine it'd be worth the hassle.

But for you I'd actually recommend checking out NHL.tv/Gamecentre Live. I get a subscription free with my Rogers mobile account and I'd say the quality is definitely better than what you get from reddit/Sportsnet Now/TSN Go. The regional blackouts are the only crappy thing about it but that wouldn't be a problem for you.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Arn on July 26, 2018, 02:48:37 PM
For several years I paid for NHL TV or the previous versions and got all games with no blackouts (there was no local TV coverage). Then a UK tv channel decided to get coverage and blacked out games and showed a lot of Leafs.

So last year I stick with the Reddit and saw pretty much every game I wanted to in great quality with no issues. Was even able to stream them to the TV via Chromecast.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 26, 2018, 02:54:07 PM
I used TSN and Sportsnet's streaming services from time to time last season and even though I have pretty good internet speeds I wasn't really that impressed with the quality. Honestly the youtube streams of games you can find on reddit and stuff were pretty much on par unfortunately.

I used tsn and sportnet  almost exclusively, but once in a while I had trouble, so I flipped to reddit and the quality was much better on the reddit streams. But they would break on me from time to time and tsn and sportsnet didn't do that, not often anyway.

I used Sportsnet and TSN streaming exclusively as well.  The biggest benefit of the Sportsnet Now app is you can pause/rewind the game.  So, often I'd watch the first period and pause it at some point in the 2nd when it was time to put my daughter to bed.. and then resume the game once I was done with that.

TSN app that wasn't possible last season.  However, with their new streaming service I have been able to do that with Tennis matches so I'd expect that to hold up for next season for Leafs and Raptors games.

I found the quality to be very good for an internet stream and I haven't even hard-wired my Apple TV yet. 

Nothing beats the HNIC broadcasts on Saturday nights with the bunny ears though.
TSN's streaming platform without a tv subscrition is an new product June 2018? Your already subscribed or were you watching via a tv subscription login?

I watch both with a tv subscription login.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2018, 10:00:35 AM

*inhales*

FLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 27, 2018, 10:37:38 AM
I wouldn't mind paying for streams if they are decent and reliable.  But would I have to use a VPN to access from the States?

I believe you would, yeah. But again, reddit streams are just as good in terms of quality. I can't imagine it'd be worth the hassle.

But for you I'd actually recommend checking out NHL.tv/Gamecentre Live. I get a subscription free with my Rogers mobile account and I'd say the quality is definitely better than what you get from reddit/Sportsnet Now/TSN Go. The regional blackouts are the only crappy thing about it but that wouldn't be a problem for you.

Thanks CTB!  I'll check into it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 27, 2018, 10:38:29 AM
I'm thinking we're going to be seeing a fair number of regseason beards this year.  Pent-up demand and so on.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: louisstamos on July 27, 2018, 10:39:09 AM
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/NiOPyn6a7tV3q/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on July 27, 2018, 11:01:51 AM
I'm thinking we're going to be seeing a fair number of regseason beards this year.  Pent-up demand and so on.


Willy is clearly channeling Act 3 Simba.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on July 27, 2018, 11:03:39 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Hans_Langseth.jpg)

Hans approves.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 11:04:57 AM
Hans approves.

I think that might be Cliff Fletcher.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 11:35:46 AM
I watched the video of that little red-carpet interview he did last night...it certainly does seem that there was some disagreement there between Matthews and Babcock.  I would imagine that they buried the hatchet though...

I actually got that feeling initially from the Bobby Orr interview, when asked about if there was a tiff there, and his response was something along the lines of "show me a great player that hasn't had disagreements with his coach?"
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on July 27, 2018, 11:41:42 AM
I watched the video of that little red-carpet interview he did last night...it certainly does seem that there was some disagreement there between Matthews and Babcock.  I would imagine that they buried the hatchet though...

I actually got that feeling initially from the Bobby Orr interview, when asked about if there was a tiff there, and his response was something along the lines of "show me a great player that hasn't had disagreements with his coach?"

If the disagreement was something like Matthews thinking he was ready for a certain level of responsibility/playing time and Babcock disagreeing than it's actually maybe a positive thing or should read as positive as we assess Matthews and the kind of player he is. Provided Babcock doesn't prove too stubborn about his decisions we should want Matthews to be pushing those sorts of limits.

That said I do think there were some people here who were a little quick to dismiss all those reports or give the media crap for them. I think it's very possible for it all to be true and real and worth reporting on(provided you're going to have this massive sports media infrastructure) while simultaneously not having massive consequences.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 12:14:17 PM
I watched the video of that little red-carpet interview he did last night...it certainly does seem that there was some disagreement there between Matthews and Babcock.  I would imagine that they buried the hatchet though...

I actually got that feeling initially from the Bobby Orr interview, when asked about if there was a tiff there, and his response was something along the lines of "show me a great player that hasn't had disagreements with his coach?"

If the disagreement was something like Matthews thinking he was ready for a certain level of responsibility/playing time and Babcock disagreeing than it's actually maybe a positive thing or should read as positive as we assess Matthews and the kind of player he is. Provided Babcock doesn't prove too stubborn about his decisions we should want Matthews to be pushing those sorts of limits.

That said I do think there were some people here who were a little quick to dismiss all those reports or give the media crap for them. I think it's very possible for it all to be true and real and worth reporting on(provided you're going to have this massive sports media infrastructure) while simultaneously not having massive consequences.

And speaking of the massive sports media infrastructure, I just checked sportsnet.ca, and in the top left corner there's a video link and the headline "Auston Matthews Opens Up About Role in Recruiting John Tavares".

Like, he just gave the guy a phone call, man.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 27, 2018, 12:24:55 PM
I watched the video of that little red-carpet interview he did last night...it certainly does seem that there was some disagreement there between Matthews and Babcock.  I would imagine that they buried the hatchet though...

I actually got that feeling initially from the Bobby Orr interview, when asked about if there was a tiff there, and his response was something along the lines of "show me a great player that hasn't had disagreements with his coach?"
I would still argue not playing Austin Matthews more on the PP was ridiculous regardless of how well the first PP unit was doing. It could have done better with Matthews on the ice. Not exactly a team shattering conflict but how about throwing a little more PP time at your best player, win-win for everyone.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on July 27, 2018, 12:40:36 PM
I'm thinking we're going to be seeing a fair number of regseason beards this year.  Pent-up demand and so on.

I guess this season is written off.  Team chemistry will plummet.  Dogs will lie with cats.  Chaos everywhere.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 27, 2018, 01:17:18 PM
I'm thinking we're going to be seeing a fair number of regseason beards this year.  Pent-up demand and so on.

I guess this season is written off.  Team chemistry will plummet.  Dogs will lie with cats.  Chaos everywhere.

Wait til Jumbo gets a revenge fistful out of Kadri.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 27, 2018, 01:19:11 PM
Hans approves.

I think that might be Cliff Fletcher.

Good call.  You can tell it's him because he insisted on having it done as a daguerreotype.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 27, 2018, 01:33:02 PM
Call me slow but I am just realizing this proposed Hyman-Tavares-Marnier line is an all GTA line which is pretty cool.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 02:09:24 PM
They're just dying for Leafs content over at tsn.ca:

https://www.tsn.ca/moore-not-expecting-to-re-sign-with-leafs-1.1149026

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 02:10:35 PM
Hans approves.

I think that might be Cliff Fletcher.

Good call.  You can tell it's him because he insisted on having it done as a daguerreotype.

*Googles daguerreotype
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2018, 02:13:45 PM
They're just dying for Leafs content over at tsn.ca:

https://www.tsn.ca/moore-not-expecting-to-re-sign-with-leafs-1.1149026

I'd like to take this moment to announce that I also won't be signing with the Leafs.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 02:23:46 PM
They're just dying for Leafs content over at tsn.ca:

https://www.tsn.ca/moore-not-expecting-to-re-sign-with-leafs-1.1149026

I'd like to take this moment to announce that I also won't be signing with the Leafs.

Let tsn.ca know.  They'll write up a little thing for you and post it right on the main page.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on July 27, 2018, 03:10:10 PM
They're just dying for Leafs content over at tsn.ca:

https://www.tsn.ca/moore-not-expecting-to-re-sign-with-leafs-1.1149026

I'd like to take this moment to announce that I also won't be signing with the Leafs.
In all seriousness, I don't hate Moore as a player that pops in out of the line up as an injury backup. I rather have Moore sitting in the press box then a developing prospect.

Assuming healthy who are our pressbox players? Levio/Carrick/Borgman/Gauthier?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on July 27, 2018, 03:24:27 PM
Here's my projection, based on nothing:

$11.25  X 7
$7.7 X 6
$6.67 X 6

The deals expire once guys are 28 years old: lots of UFA money/term still available, and staggered so that they can be handled individually. 

They'll do for Nylander and Marner what they did for Tavares with the max signing bonus and lock-out proof them, but only for that potential lock-out season/CBA ending year.  The other years will have a smattering of $3m-$4m in signing bonus component.

Matthews gets the full Tavares signing bonus laden package.
Title: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 27, 2018, 05:39:08 PM
5x7.0
5x7.0
5x7.0

All three drink the Dubas koolaid and take less money on the cap to help the team win over the next half decade. 

All three suspiciously start appearing in just about every major commercial campaign in Canada.

Dubas promises to make them whole on the next deals after theyve won multiple cups.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on July 27, 2018, 06:24:17 PM
5x7.0
5x7.0
5x7.0

All three drink the Dubas koolaid and take less money on the cap to help the team win over the next half decade. 

All three suspiciously start appearing in just about every major commercial campaign in Canada.

Dubas promises to make them whole on the next deals after theyve won multiple cups.
Sell them equity into the company empire! Far more than a paltry 10 to 12 million
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 10, 2018, 09:38:44 PM
This is a tactical inefficiency that should be exploited more readily:
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on August 11, 2018, 09:16:35 AM
This is a tactical inefficiency that should be exploited more readily:

It certainly gives you a lot more reach and more control of the puck while reaching.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 11, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
This is a tactical inefficiency that should be exploited more readily:

It certainly gives you a lot more reach and more control of the puck while reaching.

And attacking from a dimension thats not normally accounted for from that side. Its rare to get that kind of time and space and he lucked out scooping a puck on edge.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on August 11, 2018, 12:18:13 PM
This is a tactical inefficiency that should be exploited more readily:

It certainly gives you a lot more reach and more control of the puck while reaching.

And attacking from a dimension thats not normally accounted for from that side. Its rare to get that kind of time and space and he lucked out scooping a puck on edge.

He certainly did. The puck rolled at just the right time to get the quick scoop. The process is quite a bit longer if you do it while the puck is flat on the ice
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 13, 2018, 05:18:53 AM
How many actually believe this?:


It is in fact a very well-written, well-researched piece on Leivo and why he may be a Leaf version of  a Jonathan Marchassault sample type player.

Checking moneypuck.com myself, with a minimum of 131 minutes playing time, Leivo was second to Matthews in the "x goals in 60" for the 2016-2017 season among Leaf forwards:
                         
                                         x goals in
                                         60 minutes
C Auston Matthews      1.3   (1st)
L Josh Leivo                   1.06 (2nd)


However, looking at that same column with the same minimum minutes, Leivo was ninth in that same column ("x goals in 60") for the 2017-2018 season among Leaf forwards:

                                        x goals in
                                        60 minutes
C Auston Matthews     1.09  (1st)
L Josh Leivo                  0.71 (9th)


Let's not forget these are small sample stats, since Leivo hasn't played much to begin with.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 13, 2018, 09:51:27 AM
The main difference that makes me balk at the Leivo/Marchessault comparison is skating.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 13, 2018, 05:41:21 PM
The main difference that makes me balk at the Leivo/Marchessault comparison is skating.

Just the skating, herman?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 14, 2018, 09:09:33 AM
The main difference that makes me balk at the Leivo/Marchessault comparison is skating.

Just the skating, herman?

Stylistically, in the OZ, they're pretty similar as opportunistic RH shooters. Leivo is a bigger body, but Marchessault is faster on the rush, more laterally agile, and sneakier in finding soft ice. i.e. Marchessault creates more of his own opportunities due to his mobility. Leivo is a similar level in terms of raw finish, but very dependent for chance generation.

It's why they both struggled with bottom-6 linemates, but Marchessault, when given the chance and time, has flourished with skilled partners. Leivo would be very productive across from Nylander, or Marner, or Kadri, but he is perceived to give up more than he scores over the likes of Johnsson and Hyman and Marleau.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on August 15, 2018, 10:22:59 AM
Dellow took a deep dive into the Leafs D being sheltered over the past few days and his output is really, really, good:

https://theathletic.com/468934/2018/08/15/dellow-how-mike-babcock-and-others-are-sheltering-defencemen-while-playing-them-against-top-opposition/

Main takeaways: 
- Everyone says QoC doesn't matter very much, but that might be more about how we collect that data than anything else because:
- Coming onto the ice against Top 6 forwards after they've already been on the ice for 30 seconds (and the puck is going into the offensive zone) will boost your QoC metric, but mostly, they are sheltered minutes and aren't very dangerous

Quote
It is very much worth noting that OTF shifts starting against top six forwards made up a substantial portion of the ice time that players like Carrick and Borgman played against opposition top six forwards. In Carricks case, I have him playing 260.15 minutes against top six forwards, with the Maple Leafs generating 269 shot attempts and allowing 233 shot attempts in that time. Put another way, the Maple Leafs generated 62.0 CF/60 and allowed 53.7 CA/60. Carricks shifts starting on the fly against top six forwards lasted for 83.82 minutes, or just under a third of his total time on ice against top six forwards. The Maple Leafs generated 126 shot attempts and allowed just 53; 90.2 CF/60 and 37.9 CA/60.

Earlier, he had graphs that showed Carrick was among the leaders in "latest into a Top-6 shift you get thrown out there" at 30 seconds.

A commenter did the math on Carrick's results taking out this form of sheltering:
Quote
176.33 minutes, 143 shots for, 180 shots against for 48.66 CF/60 and 61.25 CA/60 in "non-OFT shifts" against top 6.

WOOF. Maybe any of us wishing for Carrick to move up the lineup should re-consider. 

Of note, Polak, Borgman, and Dermott also saw this heavy form of sheltering.  Borgman's numbers were worse than Carrick- but how much of that might have been due to carrying around Polak's carcass?  Polak's results weren't that good, AND he was heavily sheltered. Good riddance.  (So yes, we should have always been yelling for Carrick over Polak- but only on the bottom pair)

Dellow didn't provide more data on Dermott in these minutes which I would have liked to see.  However, he had the strongest numbers across the board for guys who were sheltered.  I'm looking forward to seeing if he can still do well in a Top-4 role and I hope he gets that chance this year. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 15, 2018, 11:35:10 AM
Something might be up:

https://www.bardown.com/a-leafs-prospect-s-social-media-activity-has-fans-jumping-to-conclusions-1.1157984
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 15, 2018, 11:45:29 AM
Something might be up:

https://www.bardown.com/a-leafs-prospect-s-social-media-activity-has-fans-jumping-to-conclusions-1.1157984

This is why sites like PPP and TLN post their summer rankings day by day.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 15, 2018, 12:50:56 PM
Something might be up:

https://www.bardown.com/a-leafs-prospect-s-social-media-activity-has-fans-jumping-to-conclusions-1.1157984

This is why sites like PPP and TLN post their summer rankings day by day.

I'm ranking Nielsen higher now for this masterful troll job.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on August 15, 2018, 03:44:37 PM
Something might be up:

https://www.bardown.com/a-leafs-prospect-s-social-media-activity-has-fans-jumping-to-conclusions-1.1157984

This is why sites like PPP and TLN post their summer rankings day by day.

I'm ranking Nielsen higher now for this masterful troll job.

Imagine if Karlsson's twitter account suddenly followed Dubas and gave him a fist bump?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 17, 2018, 10:47:09 AM
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-lightning-tied-atop-stanley-cup-odds-camps-approach/

Obviously.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on August 17, 2018, 02:07:30 PM
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-lightning-tied-atop-stanley-cup-odds-camps-approach/

Obviously.

I'm sure I will rant about it all year but it is really unfortunate that at best we face Tampa in the second round because of the playoff formatting.  There is no guarantee that Tampa and Toronto finish 1-2 in the East but I don't like the idea that you have a system that ends up with very unbalanced playoff seeding.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 17, 2018, 02:14:45 PM

Always remember that odds are set to encourage betting, not reflect reality.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 22, 2018, 11:12:09 AM

So close.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 22, 2018, 12:20:21 PM

So close.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on August 22, 2018, 01:22:59 PM

So close.

LEAFS HAVE JOHN TAVARES!!!!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on August 22, 2018, 01:42:17 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/39565d5f8688b57b94627ceeb1f41f8f/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 22, 2018, 04:30:35 PM
Ah, shinny...GO TAVARES GO!  :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Michael on August 23, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 08:40:13 AM
Very interesting group there. Two females: everyone knows Wickenheiser of course, Needham is more of an unknown name but it looks like she owns a hockey school called Legend Hockey that does a lot of NCAA stuff.

Vic Carneiro has a Dubas-connection as he worked with him in Sault Ste. Marie. Dubas promoted him to the role of Director of Player Personnel there after inheriting him as a scout. He's been an OHL scout since 1999, first working with the London Knights right when the Hunter's bought the team.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 08:47:31 AM
From what I can tell the Leafs now have the Soo's GM (Dubas), head coach (Keefe), director of player development (Clark), director of player personnel (Carneiro), and central Ontario area scout (Roque).

There's also talk that they might be hiring Jon Elkin for the Marlies goalie coach gig. Elkin (surprise, surprise) worked with Dubas and Keefe in the Soo and was recently let go by the Coyotes.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on August 23, 2018, 08:49:23 AM
Very interesting group there. Two females: everyone knows Wickenheiser of course, Needham is more of an unknown name but it looks like she owns a hockey school called Legend Hockey that does a lot of NCAA stuff.

Vic Carneiro has a Dubas-connection as he worked with him in Sault Ste. Marie. Dubas promoted him to the role of Director of Player Personnel there after inheriting him as a scout. He's been an OHL scout since 1999, first working with the London Knights right when the Hunter's bought the team.

Leafs being progressive, not sure how many women are employed in these types of positions at the NHL level, can't be many.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 09:26:21 AM
The Leafs now have 5 pro scouts, 16 amateur scouts, a head amateur scout, directors of amateur/pro/European scouting, and a senior director that oversees the entire scouting staff. Gotta think that's the biggest and most expensive scouting staff in the league. Time will tell if it's also among the best.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on August 23, 2018, 09:37:41 AM
The Leafs now have 5 pro scouts, 16 amateur scouts, a head amateur scout, directors of amateur/pro/European scouting, and a senior director that oversees the entire scouting staff. Gotta think that's the biggest and most expensive scouting staff in the league. Time will tell if it's also among the best.

Love it.  They can't go over the salary cap on actual players but they can spend whatever they want on everything else.  Might as well try and have the best scouting staff possible, if that means hiring everyone so be it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 09:48:38 AM
The Leafs now have 5 pro scouts, 16 amateur scouts, a head amateur scout, directors of amateur/pro/European scouting, and a senior director that oversees the entire scouting staff. Gotta think that's the biggest and most expensive scouting staff in the league. Time will tell if it's also among the best.

Decided to compare this to the other Canadian teams, just for kicks. In total the Leafs have 26 people listed on their scouting staff.

Winnipeg: 20
Vancouver: 19
Montreal: 18
Calgary: 17
Edmonton: 13
Ottawa: 13

Since some of the teams include pictures in their directories this was also a fun exercise in seeing how many old white guys are employed by them, particularly in a scouting role. The Leafs hiring a couple of females doesn't really change this entirely but it is a nice start.

Like sorry Vancouver but these are all the same person:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlShySIWwAYV7-S.jpg)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 10:54:10 AM

I very much doubt that this would ever happen, but honestly reading through the article it does make a fair bit of sense. Especially considering the make-up of our team.

I'm sure there were people who thought that playing 4 forwards on the powerplay was bonkers too 10 years ago, but all it took was for one team to start having success with it and it's almost universally adopted now.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 12:28:09 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 23, 2018, 12:51:27 PM

Whatup
@Achayria, former writer for PPP and editor/writer for Raw Charge pointed out that one of the biggest inefficiencies with a lot of untapped potential to take advantage of would be hiring women to NHL management.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on August 23, 2018, 01:56:37 PM

Would it be weird as a happily married man to admit I have a slight man-crush on Dubas?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 23, 2018, 01:59:13 PM
Would it be weird as a happily married man to admit I have a slight man-crush on Dubas?

Get in line, buddy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 23, 2018, 02:07:10 PM

I think that what Dubas is saying here is fundamentally true in most respects and he should be commended for making a push towards broadening the scope of hockey hirings while still attracting top quality people.

That said, I am curious to see if applying the broader truths here to a pretty narrowly focused business like the NHL will end up as a perfect fit. If you're running an operation where creativity allows for new areas/goals to pursue than you would obviously want as diverse and open-minded a staff as possible. In a world as singularly driven and rigidly structured as running a NHL team I have to think those benefits are somewhat more limited.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on August 23, 2018, 03:00:15 PM

I think that what Dubas is saying here is fundamentally true in most respects and he should be commended for making a push towards broadening the scope of hockey hirings while still attracting top quality people.

That said, I am curious to see if applying the broader truths here to a pretty narrowly focused business like the NHL will end up as a perfect fit. If you're running an operation where creativity allows for new areas/goals to pursue than you would obviously want as diverse and open-minded a staff as possible. In a world as singularly driven and rigidly structured as running a NHL team I have to think those benefits are somewhat more limited.

If I'm understanding your point, I'd like to think that there's enough new blood in the NHL front offices that there will be no issues with working with people outside of the sport's traditional background/makeup, particularly if there's the consensus that the hiring is considered merit based.  I'd be suprised if others in the industry saw it as a Trudeau-style virtue signal appointment.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 23, 2018, 03:00:34 PM

I very much doubt that this would ever happen, but honestly reading through the article it does make a fair bit of sense. Especially considering the make-up of our team.

I'm sure there were people who thought that playing 4 forwards on the powerplay was bonkers too 10 years ago, but all it took was for one team to start having success with it and it's almost universally adopted now.
On this team, how about one defenseman all the time except the penalty kill? All killer no filler.

Three sets of 4 forwards and cycle Gardiner, Rielly and Dermott. Instead of having a 4th line that rarely plays you have crappy d-man that rarely play. By the way, I am not a big fan of our D.  We would have scores like 8-4, 10-7... it would be awesome.

Kappi/Levio/Ennis or Zaitsev/Carrick/Hainsey on the bench? The more talented group to me looks obvious.

Hell, Scott Bowman tried it with Federov.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 23, 2018, 03:22:58 PM
If I'm understanding your point, I'd like to think that there's enough new blood in the NHL front offices that there will be no issues with working with people outside of the sport's traditional background/makeup, particularly if there's the consensus that the hiring is considered merit based.  I'd be suprised if others in the industry saw it as a Trudeau-style virtue signal appointment.

No, that's not really what I meant. What I was getting at, I suppose, is that if you're running a business like Google or Amazon or whatever there are lots of avenues towards success if success is ultimately determined by something like profits or share value. As a result creative thinking can not only open up new paths to success in existing ventures but also entirely new ventures where you're really only restricted by a fairly loose regulatory system. To me, that presents a very clear and straightforward reason to not only have strong voices but, as Dubas mentions, diverse voices as well.

Hockey is a very different animal. In the NHL we unfortunately tend to think of success as a sort of binary question where there is one success every year and then 30 various degrees of failure. All the bright, outside of the box thinking won't open up new avenues for the team to pursue and the paths towards that one mode of success are rigidly restricted by a CBA that regulates just about anything a team can do in a direct capacity.

Like I said, I don't think any of these hires are bad ideas or will hurt the team or be received negatively but I'm a little sceptical that you can apply most standard organizational theories to something as specialized and restricted as a hockey team. I'm not arguing for regressive thinking or only giving jobs to grizzled hockey lifers, just that my experiences as a fan in other sports have led me to believe that a lot of the fancy new ways of thinking that get highly touted often just end up reinforcing existing beliefs and the actual impact of expanding like this is fairly minimal.

That said, I hope I'm wrong. I'd very much like to see the scope of hockey hiring open up and the Leafs use their strong position to maximize whatever benefit they can from it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 23, 2018, 03:26:46 PM
The Leafs now have 5 pro scouts, 16 amateur scouts, a head amateur scout, directors of amateur/pro/European scouting, and a senior director that oversees the entire scouting staff. Gotta think that's the biggest and most expensive scouting staff in the league. Time will tell if it's also among the best.

Decided to compare this to the other Canadian teams, just for kicks. In total the Leafs have 26 people listed on their scouting staff.

Winnipeg: 20
Vancouver: 19
Montreal: 18
Calgary: 17
Edmonton: 13
Ottawa: 13

Since some of the teams include pictures in their directories this was also a fun exercise in seeing how many old white guys are employed by them, particularly in a scouting role. The Leafs hiring a couple of females doesn't really change this entirely but it is a nice start.

Like sorry Vancouver but these are all the same person:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlShySIWwAYV7-S.jpg)
Hammerstrom not looking bad for his age, remember his scoring an overtime goal against Boston in the playoffs a lifetime ago.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 23, 2018, 03:28:25 PM
Would it be weird as a happily married man to admit I have a slight man-crush on Dubas?

Get in line, buddy.
It the Clark Kent glass's
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: lamajama on August 23, 2018, 06:43:06 PM
Off current topic but the new Sportsnet play by play guy for the Leafs games...it's not the Marlies guy is it?

I hope not...not a fan of his goal calls......
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Rob on August 23, 2018, 07:00:37 PM
The Leafs now have 5 pro scouts, 16 amateur scouts, a head amateur scout, directors of amateur/pro/European scouting, and a senior director that oversees the entire scouting staff. Gotta think that's the biggest and most expensive scouting staff in the league. Time will tell if it's also among the best.

Decided to compare this to the other Canadian teams, just for kicks. In total the Leafs have 26 people listed on their scouting staff.

Winnipeg: 20
Vancouver: 19
Montreal: 18
Calgary: 17
Edmonton: 13
Ottawa: 13

Since some of the teams include pictures in their directories this was also a fun exercise in seeing how many old white guys are employed by them, particularly in a scouting role. The Leafs hiring a couple of females doesn't really change this entirely but it is a nice start.

Like sorry Vancouver but these are all the same person:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlShySIWwAYV7-S.jpg)
Hammerstrom not looking bad for his age, remember his scoring an overtime goal against Boston in the playoffs a lifetime ago.

And could go in the corner with a dozen eggs in his pocket and not break one of them.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 24, 2018, 07:54:11 AM
The Leafs now have 5 pro scouts, 16 amateur scouts, a head amateur scout, directors of amateur/pro/European scouting, and a senior director that oversees the entire scouting staff. Gotta think that's the biggest and most expensive scouting staff in the league. Time will tell if it's also among the best.

Decided to compare this to the other Canadian teams, just for kicks. In total the Leafs have 26 people listed on their scouting staff.

Winnipeg: 20
Vancouver: 19
Montreal: 18
Calgary: 17
Edmonton: 13
Ottawa: 13

Since some of the teams include pictures in their directories this was also a fun exercise in seeing how many old white guys are employed by them, particularly in a scouting role. The Leafs hiring a couple of females doesn't really change this entirely but it is a nice start.

Like sorry Vancouver but these are all the same person:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlShySIWwAYV7-S.jpg)
Hammerstrom not looking bad for his age, remember his scoring an overtime goal against Boston in the playoffs a lifetime ago.

And could go in the corner with a dozen eggs in his pocket and not break one of them.


Ah, Hammerstrom.  He was a deft puckhandler and superb skater but had a lot of trouble adjusting to the then violent and hard-hitting era of the NHL, which was the '70's (the Broad Street Bullies era).

Thanks to Hammerstrom & Salming plus the Leafs brass that introduced them to the NHL and thus paved the way for Swedish/Euro players to eventually follow.

Ballard was cruel with his description of Hammerstrom plus the "chicken Swede" label however warranted it may have seemed to some (not to all Leafs fans at the time.

Hammerstrom and Salming (who adapted and survived quite well in the hockey style of the times) were easily along my favourite Leafs -- Salming for his skills & endurance, and Hammerstrom for his courage (as a far more docile player than Borje) ijust to be on that ice.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on August 24, 2018, 08:50:17 AM
Salming=Best Leaf D man ever.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on August 24, 2018, 10:06:14 AM
Salming=Best Leaf D man ever.

You're not wrong, but I'll always be a huge kaberle fan. I think he would have excelled even more in today's game.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 24, 2018, 12:22:33 PM
Salming=Best Leaf D man ever.
I will second and third that sentiment
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Kaberle15 on August 24, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
Salming=Best Leaf D man ever.

You're not wrong, but I'll always be a huge kaberle fan. I think he would have excelled even more in today's game.

I will second and third that sentiment
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 24, 2018, 05:04:55 PM
Salming=Best Leaf D man ever.

You're not wrong, but I'll always be a huge kaberle fan. I think he would have excelled even more in today's game.

I will second and third that sentiment

In his prime, Kaberle was one of the best puck handling d-men I've ever watched.  He wasn't much when not handling the puck, but the way he made guys move with his hesitations and head fakes was really fun to watch.

Larry Murphy, as underappreciated as he was as a Leaf, was another great puck manager on the back-end.

But really, Salming was a stud in his time, and I'm comfortable calling him the best d-man the Leafs have iced if we're talking about who was the best guy relative to their peers during their individual careers.

Interesting fact, the Leafs have never had a Norris Trophy winner, and the last guy that played for them that even had a Norris was Brian Leetch, for 15 games back in 2004, and he had won his most recent one in '97...and the last time a Leaf won the Hart was in 1955...Ted Kennedy.

These are unprecedented times in Leafland, ladies and gentlemen.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on August 24, 2018, 07:15:04 PM
Nice article in the Star by Damian Cox, not a huge fan of his but his observations are spot on especially for those who have been Leaf fans since the early 90's.   
For those of oldies that remember the Leafs actually winning multiple Cups, the sting of all those terrible years is still like a thorn in our sides.
We want to win now, not in two or three years.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 25, 2018, 07:37:07 PM

For the people in the hire the best people crowd who are worried about white males losing jobs to affirmative action and representation...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 25, 2018, 09:01:50 PM

Nobody is happier than I am to have it feel like the Leafs are doing smart things again but I have to confess I'm a little puzzled about how exactly something like that would work with regards to an inexact science like scouting. Maybe this is just my lack of experience with the subject matter coming through but are there objectively good and objectively bad scouting reports? And isn't amateur scouting less about the quality of a report and an ability to sort of try and project a player a few years out? How could you look at a bunch of anonymous reports and figure that out?

It seems to me like any such effort would result less in getting the "best" applicants by any actual metric and more about getting the ones that most fit in with what an organization is looking for. Which isn't a bad thing of course but you do sort of wonder if some of the better picks made over the years weren't a result of against the grain thinking.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on August 25, 2018, 10:33:57 PM
Which isn't a bad thing of course but you do sort of wonder if some of the better picks made over the years weren't a result of against the grain thinking.

Or, quite frankly, any more than half-blind luck. There's always a revisionist breakdown of the logic behind later round successful picks, and it's usually that "against the grain" logic backing them up in order for those involved to set themselves apart.

Maybe I'm being too cynical.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 26, 2018, 09:56:59 AM

Nobody is happier than I am to have it feel like the Leafs are doing smart things again but I have to confess I'm a little puzzled about how exactly something like that would work with regards to an inexact science like scouting. Maybe this is just my lack of experience with the subject matter coming through but are there objectively good and objectively bad scouting reports? And isn't amateur scouting less about the quality of a report and an ability to sort of try and project a player a few years out? How could you look at a bunch of anonymous reports and figure that out?

It seems to me like any such effort would result less in getting the "best" applicants by any actual metric and more about getting the ones that most fit in with what an organization is looking for. Which isn't a bad thing of course but you do sort of wonder if some of the better picks made over the years weren't a result of against the grain thinking.

It's just more media people falling over themselves congratulating the Leafs on being so smart, before they actually do something smart.

Here's the thing, I'm a little more concerned that they would actually have biases that would require some software to mask people's identities. 

I know I wouldn't need it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on August 26, 2018, 01:47:32 PM

Here's the thing, I'm a little more concerned that they would actually have biases that would require some software to mask people's identities. 

I know I wouldn't need it.

Everyone has biases despite wanting to deny that.

Also, it's not like they used this method to pick their GM or Coach. It was used for an amateur scout way down the ladder where picking becomes more difficult as the difference between one applicant and the other may be less evident.

I'm not saying this method was groundbreaking. Just saying..
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 26, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
Or, quite frankly, any more than half-blind luck. There's always a revisionist breakdown of the logic behind later round successful picks, and it's usually that "against the grain" logic backing them up in order for those involved to set themselves apart.

Yeah, sure. There's always going to be an element of luck in any draft pick success outside of your real obvious ones but I guess I meant that even within an organization I think it would pay to occasionally listen to people with a different outlook than the one making the larger scale decisions.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 26, 2018, 03:53:27 PM
Here's the thing, I'm a little more concerned that they would actually have biases that would require some software to mask people's identities. 

I know I wouldn't need it.

I'm not sure that's as virtuous as you think it is. If you're saying you don't have ideas formed in your head as to what makes a good employee and what makes a bad one in a particular role it doesn't so much say you're openminded as it does that you don't care about it much.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 27, 2018, 10:01:26 AM
Here's the thing, I'm a little more concerned that they would actually have biases that would require some software to mask people's identities. 

I know I wouldn't need it.

I'm not sure that's as virtuous as you think it is. If you're saying you don't have ideas formed in your head as to what makes a good employee and what makes a bad one in a particular role it doesn't so much say you're openminded as it does that you don't care about it much.

1.  I don't think it's that virtuous at all.  It's just being a smart hiring manager/employer.  Any business, like mine, that depends on input from a number of different points of view should have hiring practices that encourages hiring different kinds of people.  More specifically, to the point of the tweet, I don't have any age bias (obviously within reason), gender bias, or cultural bias.

2.  I have lots of formed ideas in my head about what makes a good employee, but they really don't have anything to do with age/gender/culture.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 27, 2018, 03:47:58 PM
1.  I don't think it's that virtuous at all.  It's just being a smart hiring manager/employer.  Any business, like mine, that depends on input from a number of different points of view should have hiring practices that encourages hiring different kinds of people.  More specifically, to the point of the tweet, I don't have any age bias (obviously within reason), gender bias, or cultural bias.

2.  I have lots of formed ideas in my head about what makes a good employee, but they really don't have anything to do with age/gender/culture.

Well, I tend to think that most of the biases we have tend to be unconscious so I'm not sure stating you don't have any means all that much but I think the second point is more important. I don't think the biases that Dubas and co. were talking about were based around age or gender or culture but rather the biases that I think we would consider more acceptable that can get in the way of our evaluation of just the work product. As a for instance, a lot of people have ideas about relevant experience and how that might apply.

Especially in hockey where "That person was part of a winning organization" seems to carry a ton of weight and the peter principle gets played out fairly often, I think they were talking about a bias towards those sorts of things.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on August 27, 2018, 04:10:00 PM

For the people in the hire the best people crowd who are worried about white males losing jobs to affirmative action and representation...
I like the approach. I wish schools would do the same thing for teachers/professors marking papers. A totally unbiased opinion free from any outside influence or pre-existing opinions/parameters.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 27, 2018, 05:48:15 PM
1.  I don't think it's that virtuous at all.  It's just being a smart hiring manager/employer.  Any business, like mine, that depends on input from a number of different points of view should have hiring practices that encourages hiring different kinds of people.  More specifically, to the point of the tweet, I don't have any age bias (obviously within reason), gender bias, or cultural bias.

2.  I have lots of formed ideas in my head about what makes a good employee, but they really don't have anything to do with age/gender/culture.

Well, I tend to think that most of the biases we have tend to be unconscious so I'm not sure stating you don't have any means all that much but I think the second point is more important. I don't think the biases that Dubas and co. were talking about were based around age or gender or culture but rather the biases that I think we would consider more acceptable that can get in the way of our evaluation of just the work product. As a for instance, a lot of people have ideas about relevant experience and how that might apply.

Especially in hockey where "That person was part of a winning organization" seems to carry a ton of weight and the peter principle gets played out fairly often, I think they were talking about a bias towards those sorts of things.

Well, I think we're going to disagree a bit on this subject.  There's a big difference between bias and preference.

I think what you may be referring to is groups making decision based on preferences based on history of hiring people from different kinds of experience makers (competing/similar organizations).  For instance, you're looking at a candidate that has been working with a particular company that has a very strong process that you believe in, and this candidate believes in those processes, so you place that candidate higher than one that has been working with a less successful organization with a weaker process, at least in your opinion, that that candidate believes in.

Bias, by definition, is usually being unfair in your evaluation.

So I'm pretty comfortable saying I'm not unfair in my practices.  I'm not so sure that MLSE was being unfair in the past, I don't really know.  But the tweet was pretty specific with the criteria of gender, appearance, ethnicity, and age, and the suggestion that they were trying to avoid making decisions based on those.  All I can say to that is, well, welcome to the 21st century, MLSE scouting department.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 27, 2018, 06:58:11 PM
Well, I think we're going to disagree a bit on this subject.  There's a big difference between bias and preference.

I think what you may be referring to is groups making decision based on preferences based on history of hiring people from different kinds of experience makers (competing/similar organizations).  For instance, you're looking at a candidate that has been working with a particular company that has a very strong process that you believe in, and this candidate believes in those processes, so you place that candidate higher than one that has been working with a less successful organization with a weaker process, at least in your opinion, that that candidate believes in.

But what this is about is about isolating everything except for the work produced. In a capacity in which there is an objectively good product(which, like I said, is debatable here) then excluding all other considerations to just focus on the work has value. Nothing said here indicated that eliminating every other consideration and just looking at the work blind of any perceived biases was the only consideration, just that it can be valuable to admit that occasionally you don't know what you don't know and looking at the work done independent of whatever your biases may be.

If you hire a group of people who have experience from one particular source and it works out well so you develop a "preference" for people with that experience that is the hot hand fallacy at work. Especially in a world where not every type of experience is equally available to all people. This is sort of discrimination 101. If someone has a strong preference for hiring people with experience from a certain source(say, being on a scouting staff of a previously successful NHL team) then how does anyone become the first sort of person to gain that experience?

Bias, by definition, is usually being unfair in your evaluation.

So I'm pretty comfortable saying I'm not unfair in my practices.

But that's the whole point. Nobody thinks they're being unfair. Nobody thinks they're playing to their subconscious biases, because then they wouldn't be subconscious. You could go to the most bigoted, prejudicial person in the world and I guarantee that they would talk about "preferences" and learned experience and some sort of cooked up data that reinforces what they think rather than admitting their thought process is flawed. After all, if you were conscious of those biases, why would you continue to indulge in them?

Often, the way we arrive at those preferences are a result of flawed thinking, where we value things that aren't quantifiable over things that are. This process is about people being able to sometimes admit that you can't always trust yourself to be the most objective in your evaluations of yourself and your methods.

But the tweet was pretty specific with the criteria of gender, appearance, ethnicity, and age, and the suggestion that they were trying to avoid making decisions based on those.

Well, no. First of all it's an excerpt from an article, not a tweet. Secondly, within the highlighted text "Things like..." is not specific or limiting.

But even still, it's about Dubas and co. being able to recognize that we're all products of our environment and not everything that environment imparts to us is consciously realized. Our biases inform our "preferences" and this was an attempt to step outside of that.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: IJustLurkHere on August 27, 2018, 08:21:09 PM
Bias, by definition, is usually being unfair in your evaluation.

So I'm pretty comfortable saying I'm not unfair in my practices.

But that's the whole point. Nobody thinks they're being unfair. Nobody thinks they're playing to their subconscious biases, because then they wouldn't be subconscious. You could go to the most bigoted, prejudicial person in the world and I guarantee that they would talk about "preferences" and learned experience and some sort of cooked up data that reinforces what they think rather than admitting their thought process is flawed. After all, if you were conscious of those biases, why would you continue to indulge in them?

Often, the way we arrive at those preferences are a result of flawed thinking, where we value things that aren't quantifiable over things that are. This process is about people being able to sometimes admit that you can't always trust yourself to be the most objective in your evaluations of yourself and your methods.


My interpretation is that it means Kyle Dubas has read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, in which there's a chapter that talks about the impact of orchestra's going from open auditions to having musician's audition behind a screen. Prior to the change, nobody would have said they were being biased, but the change in results speaks for itself.

Without plagiarising the book, here's an internet article where Gladwell describes the situation and impact: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_book_club/features/2005/blink_and_the_wisdom_of_crowds/the_biases_and_delusions_of_experts.html

Quote
Prior to the 1980s, auditions for top orchestras were openthat is, the auditioning committee sat and watched one musician after another come in and play in front of the judges. Under this system, the overwhelming number of musicians hired by top orchestras were menbut no one thought much of this. It was simply assumed that men were better musicians. After all, what could be fairer than an open audition? And weren't the members of audition committees, "experts" in their field, capable of discerning good musicians from bad musicians?

But then, for a number of reasons, orchestras in the 1980s started putting up screens in audition rooms, so that the committee could no longer see the person auditioning. And immediatelyimmediately!orchestras started hiring women left and right. In fact, since the advent of screens, women have won the majority of auditions for top orchestras, meaning that now, if anything, the auditioning process supports the conclusion that women are better classical musicians than men. Clearly what was happening before was that, in ways no one quite realized, the act of seeing a given musician play was impairing the listener's ability to actually hear what a musician was playing. People's feelings about women, as a group, were interfering with their ability to evaluate music.

I don't know that anyone's being accused of being biased... I just think Dubas read Blink :)


Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: RedLeaf on August 28, 2018, 12:11:21 AM
Bias, by definition, is usually being unfair in your evaluation.

So I'm pretty comfortable saying I'm not unfair in my practices.

But that's the whole point. Nobody thinks they're being unfair. Nobody thinks they're playing to their subconscious biases, because then they wouldn't be subconscious. You could go to the most bigoted, prejudicial person in the world and I guarantee that they would talk about "preferences" and learned experience and some sort of cooked up data that reinforces what they think rather than admitting their thought process is flawed. After all, if you were conscious of those biases, why would you continue to indulge in them?

Often, the way we arrive at those preferences are a result of flawed thinking, where we value things that aren't quantifiable over things that are. This process is about people being able to sometimes admit that you can't always trust yourself to be the most objective in your evaluations of yourself and your methods.


My interpretation is that it means Kyle Dubas has read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, in which there's a chapter that talks about the impact of orchestra's going from open auditions to having musician's audition behind a screen. Prior to the change, nobody would have said they were being biased, but the change in results speaks for itself.

Without plagiarising the book, here's an internet article where Gladwell describes the situation and impact: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_book_club/features/2005/blink_and_the_wisdom_of_crowds/the_biases_and_delusions_of_experts.html

Quote
Prior to the 1980s, auditions for top orchestras were openthat is, the auditioning committee sat and watched one musician after another come in and play in front of the judges. Under this system, the overwhelming number of musicians hired by top orchestras were menbut no one thought much of this. It was simply assumed that men were better musicians. After all, what could be fairer than an open audition? And weren't the members of audition committees, "experts" in their field, capable of discerning good musicians from bad musicians?

But then, for a number of reasons, orchestras in the 1980s started putting up screens in audition rooms, so that the committee could no longer see the person auditioning. And immediatelyimmediately!orchestras started hiring women left and right. In fact, since the advent of screens, women have won the majority of auditions for top orchestras, meaning that now, if anything, the auditioning process supports the conclusion that women are better classical musicians than men. Clearly what was happening before was that, in ways no one quite realized, the act of seeing a given musician play was impairing the listener's ability to actually hear what a musician was playing. People's feelings about women, as a group, were interfering with their ability to evaluate music.

I don't know that anyone's being accused of being biased... I just think Dubas read Blink :)

Interesting . Id never heard that one before.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on August 28, 2018, 10:28:36 AM
Well, I think we're going to disagree a bit on this subject.  There's a big difference between bias and preference.

I think what you may be referring to is groups making decision based on preferences based on history of hiring people from different kinds of experience makers (competing/similar organizations).  For instance, you're looking at a candidate that has been working with a particular company that has a very strong process that you believe in, and this candidate believes in those processes, so you place that candidate higher than one that has been working with a less successful organization with a weaker process, at least in your opinion, that that candidate believes in.

But what this is about is about isolating everything except for the work produced. In a capacity in which there is an objectively good product(which, like I said, is debatable here) then excluding all other considerations to just focus on the work has value. Nothing said here indicated that eliminating every other consideration and just looking at the work blind of any perceived biases was the only consideration, just that it can be valuable to admit that occasionally you don't know what you don't know and looking at the work done independent of whatever your biases may be.

If you hire a group of people who have experience from one particular source and it works out well so you develop a "preference" for people with that experience that is the hot hand fallacy at work. Especially in a world where not every type of experience is equally available to all people. This is sort of discrimination 101. If someone has a strong preference for hiring people with experience from a certain source(say, being on a scouting staff of a previously successful NHL team) then how does anyone become the first sort of person to gain that experience?

Bias, by definition, is usually being unfair in your evaluation.

So I'm pretty comfortable saying I'm not unfair in my practices.

But that's the whole point. Nobody thinks they're being unfair. Nobody thinks they're playing to their subconscious biases, because then they wouldn't be subconscious. You could go to the most bigoted, prejudicial person in the world and I guarantee that they would talk about "preferences" and learned experience and some sort of cooked up data that reinforces what they think rather than admitting their thought process is flawed. After all, if you were conscious of those biases, why would you continue to indulge in them?

Often, the way we arrive at those preferences are a result of flawed thinking, where we value things that aren't quantifiable over things that are. This process is about people being able to sometimes admit that you can't always trust yourself to be the most objective in your evaluations of yourself and your methods.

But the tweet was pretty specific with the criteria of gender, appearance, ethnicity, and age, and the suggestion that they were trying to avoid making decisions based on those.

Well, no. First of all it's an excerpt from an article, not a tweet. Secondly, within the highlighted text "Things like..." is not specific or limiting.

But even still, it's about Dubas and co. being able to recognize that we're all products of our environment and not everything that environment imparts to us is consciously realized. Our biases inform our "preferences" and this was an attempt to step outside of that.

Like I said, we're not going to agree on this.  I'm comfortable with my position here, so I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 28, 2018, 10:58:42 AM

Yup. We'll just have to agree to disagree about my wacky concept of a subconscious mind. Where do I get these things, amirite?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on August 28, 2018, 11:19:30 AM

Nobody is happier than I am to have it feel like the Leafs are doing smart things again but I have to confess I'm a little puzzled about how exactly something like that would work with regards to an inexact science like scouting. Maybe this is just my lack of experience with the subject matter coming through but are there objectively good and objectively bad scouting reports? And isn't amateur scouting less about the quality of a report and an ability to sort of try and project a player a few years out? How could you look at a bunch of anonymous reports and figure that out?

It seems to me like any such effort would result less in getting the "best" applicants by any actual metric and more about getting the ones that most fit in with what an organization is looking for. Which isn't a bad thing of course but you do sort of wonder if some of the better picks made over the years weren't a result of against the grain thinking.

Ive been pondering this quite a bit and I think its a very good point about how to objectively evaluate what is sort of also an art.

Objectively, I think the scouting reports can be evaluated on which elements of a player are focused on, which paints a picture of how the scout views the game and what components are valued, and whether it is a gestalt outlook or a very fixated point of view.

Dubas has said (or it has been said of him) that he values differing (but well substantiated) views, so he appears to have found Needham because her report exhibited something different from the other candidates. Shes still deeply embedded in hockey (and likely has to be more passionate about the game to still be in it considering how women are gradually forced out of athletics), but clearly grew up in a different hockey soil than the men would have.

Whats funny/sad was how much water carrying there was for Dart Guy getting a scouting job compared to how people were asking for Hayley Wickenheisers bona fides to coach hockey development.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on August 28, 2018, 11:24:57 AM

Yup. We'll just have to agree to disagree about my wacky concept of a subconscious mind. Where do I get these things, amirite?

You be cray :)

I love hockey season but I hate the feeling of transition from summer to winter. When does training camp start? Do we get a captain this year?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Michael on August 29, 2018, 10:54:31 AM
When does training camp start?

15 days! :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on August 31, 2018, 11:00:27 AM
Interesting profile of Lindholm:

https://www.tsn.ca/patient-lindholm-ready-to-compete-for-nhl-spot-with-leafs-1.1165099 (https://www.tsn.ca/patient-lindholm-ready-to-compete-for-nhl-spot-with-leafs-1.1165099)

I can't see Joosh or Goat beating him out.

I wonder if he'll get PK time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 06, 2018, 03:45:21 PM
Just opened my bosses season ticket package. Pretty exciting stuff. Not my picture but here is how it's presented.

https://twitter.com/Bob_Allan1?lang=en (https://twitter.com/Bob_Allan1?lang=en)

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 07, 2018, 09:40:19 AM
Training camp is now just a week away. Medicals and media stuff on Thursday and on-ice sessions begin on Friday.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on September 07, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
Rookie tourney game tomorrow at 3pm, but apparently it's not on Leafs TV.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on September 07, 2018, 02:45:01 PM
Rookie tourney game tomorrow at 3pm, but apparently it's not on Leafs TV.

It's on RDS-Info if you get that channel.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 07, 2018, 06:25:45 PM

More Kapanen quotes please.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on September 07, 2018, 07:36:09 PM

More Kapanen quotes please.

We lost a Finn, and then I think we got a couple more Swedes, so I dont really like this setup right now. Its very bad. Very bad. (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/kasperi-kapanen-finally-full-time-maple-leaf/) (said with a big grin and completely in jest)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 08, 2018, 02:24:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IZegqQ5MQo
Superb 2018-2019 hype vid with JT highlights.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 08, 2018, 04:12:35 PM
It's maybe Useless Thread material, but a friend who is equally a baseball fan and hockey fan texted me that he thinks that Rowdy Tellez hitting 6 doubles in his first 8 at-bats isa  more impressive debut than Matthews scoring 4 goals in his first game, and I feel that that Nik the Trik should somehow be involved in the debate.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 08, 2018, 05:04:05 PM
It's maybe Useless Thread material, but a friend who is equally a baseball fan and hockey fan texted me that he thinks that Rowdy Tellez hitting 6 doubles in his first 8 at-bats isa  more impressive debut than Matthews scoring 4 goals in his first game, and I feel that that Nik the Trik should somehow be involved in the debate.

I have to be honest, I really don't have a strong opinion here.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 08, 2018, 06:13:56 PM
It's maybe Useless Thread material, but a friend who is equally a baseball fan and hockey fan texted me that he thinks that Rowdy Tellez hitting 6 doubles in his first 8 at-bats isa  more impressive debut than Matthews scoring 4 goals in his first game, and I feel that that Nik the Trik should somehow be involved in the debate.

I have to be honest, I really don't have a strong opinion here.

Well, how about that.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on September 09, 2018, 11:55:18 AM
It's maybe Useless Thread material, but a friend who is equally a baseball fan and hockey fan texted me that he thinks that Rowdy Tellez hitting 6 doubles in his first 8 at-bats isa  more impressive debut than Matthews scoring 4 goals in his first game, and I feel that that Nik the Trik should somehow be involved in the debate.
I drank 6 triples in Rowdy's first 8 at bats and then I got Rowdy
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on September 10, 2018, 08:22:40 AM
It's maybe Useless Thread material, but a friend who is equally a baseball fan and hockey fan texted me that he thinks that Rowdy Tellez hitting 6 doubles in his first 8 at-bats isa  more impressive debut than Matthews scoring 4 goals in his first game, and I feel that that Nik the Trik should somehow be involved in the debate.

I have to say that his ability to run while being an overweight baseball player is perhaps the bigger marvel.   Rowdy is not a small man.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 10, 2018, 11:33:58 AM
It's maybe Useless Thread material, but a friend who is equally a baseball fan and hockey fan texted me that he thinks that Rowdy Tellez hitting 6 doubles in his first 8 at-bats isa  more impressive debut than Matthews scoring 4 goals in his first game, and I feel that that Nik the Trik should somehow be involved in the debate.

I have to say that his ability to run while being an overweight baseball player is perhaps the bigger marvel.   Rowdy is not a small man.

So you're saying he could've had 6 triples in 8 at-bats?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 11, 2018, 11:20:37 PM

Rogers: Elliotte, its been 72 days since Tavares signed with the Leafs; dont you think its been a bit slow since then?

Friedman: Say no more.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 12, 2018, 12:12:42 AM

Rogers: Elliotte, its been 72 days since Tavares signed with the Leafs; dont you think its been a bit slow since then?

Friedman: Say no more.

Like, who wouldn't kick Melnyk's tires on this?  What a bunch of nothing.  Just a preview of the crazed speculation come Trade Deadline time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on September 12, 2018, 09:32:15 AM

Rogers: Elliotte, its been 72 days since Tavares signed with the Leafs; dont you think its been a bit slow since then?

Friedman: Say no more.

Holy crap! Am I living in bizarro world? I think it's time to re-watch a classic Seinfeld episode...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 12, 2018, 09:33:22 AM

Rogers: Elliotte, its been 72 days since Tavares signed with the Leafs; dont you think its been a bit slow since then?

Friedman: Say no more.

Holy crap! Am I living in bizarro world? I think it's time to re-watch a classic Seinfeld episode...

You should see what he said about Tampa and Karlsson :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 12, 2018, 09:54:13 AM

Rogers: Elliotte, its been 72 days since Tavares signed with the Leafs; dont you think its been a bit slow since then?

Friedman: Say no more.

Holy crap! Am I living in bizarro world? I think it's time to re-watch a classic Seinfeld episode...

You should see what he said about Tampa and Karlsson :)
Long term we cannot afford him. This year he would fit perfectly. Ottawa needs a return that they can only get if Karlsson agrees to sign an extension which the Leafs cannot offer without significant subtraction.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on September 12, 2018, 01:21:07 PM
Didn't we learn with Bolland that you don't sign guys for big money who have had Achilles tears.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 13, 2018, 03:42:14 PM
Didn't we learn with Bolland that you don't sign guys for big money who have had Achilles tears.

Good point. Was last season a temporary dip for EK playing on a crap team with a soon-to-be expiring contract or a sign that his injury has dropped him from elite to very good status? He's going to cash in big-time and long-term. Any team will be taking the plunge. Tough to be sure.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 13, 2018, 04:42:00 PM
https://theathletic.com/522459/2018/09/13/the-athletic-toronto-goes-1-on-1-with-maple-leafs-coach-mike-babcock/

Quote
Siegel: Ive always wanted to ask you this. The numbers with Zaitsev arent as flattering as the way you guys talk about him. What is it that you see that maybe the numbers miss or that maybe people like me miss?

Babcock: Well, the number one thing that he does better than any player on our team is he separates the puck in D-zone. The cycles stop as soon as hes on the ice. He separates and thats a breakout pass. You dont give him credit for the breakout pass. When the centre grabs the puck and takes off you guys dont give him credit. I do though. So some of these things that everyones looking at Im looking at everything. I like the cycle to stop now (snaps his fingers), I like to get on offense. Now the other thing that happens to any young player when you come here. Everything went real good for him (his first season) and then we took him off the power play. Well, we did that on purpose to help (Riellys) game and then (Zaitsev) got injured. And then he probably got in his own way. Its just like anything, when things go bad in life you get in your way and you get a cycle (going) and youre thinking and you wear yourself out. But we think hes very, very good. When I spent the whole summer going over all the D-zone (shifts) and hes in every good clip of breaking up the cycle theres a reason. When I had other people do it for me so it was outside our source with no emotion, guess who was the best?

Same thing?

Same thing. So its a no-brainer for us. Now, can he get better at some things? Absolutely. Do we want him to get better at some things? Yes. Is he going to? For sure he is. Hes a second-year player, third-player coming up. We like him.

Babcock describes Zaitsev similar to the way we see Hyman's effectiveness in the OZ that traditional stats (and even shot metrics) are, by nature, blind to.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 13, 2018, 04:50:58 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/09/13/mike-babcock-on-media-day-were-set-up-good-here-for-a-5-7-year-run/

You can't see a Babcock transcript and not read it in his voice in your head. You just can't.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 13, 2018, 04:51:50 PM
Auston and JT with Friedman. Nice little chat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPTqxtAHRA&t=10s
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on September 13, 2018, 05:29:19 PM
In reading the transcript of Dubas' presser today, looks like the preliminary plan is for Ennis to play with Matthews...so Nylander placeholder in effect.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Arn on September 14, 2018, 09:10:01 AM

Tavares Watch
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 14, 2018, 09:52:28 AM
In reading the transcript of Dubas' presser today, looks like the preliminary plan is for Ennis to play with Matthews...so Nylander placeholder in effect.
I agree about the placeholder thing. Babs probably has three lines in mind and instead of doing a three line shuffle he's plugging the Nylander spot for now.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 14, 2018, 02:42:40 PM
Rielly, Tavares and Marleau with the A's this year. The C still in storage.

Johnny Toronto looks beautiful in that Royal Blue and White :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 14, 2018, 02:52:46 PM
Johnny Toronto looks beautiful in that Royal Blue and White :)

If this becomes a thing I'm taking sole and exclusive credit.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 14, 2018, 03:24:04 PM
Johnny Toronto looks beautiful in that Royal Blue and White :)

If this becomes a thing I'm taking sole and exclusive credit.
lol

Leafs Blueprint Marleau episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi7JsSk3pTc
First it was Patty, then it was JT :D
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 16, 2018, 02:48:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E8B3cxjkmk&t=20s
A good one too. Leafs Blueprint: Dermott/Holl/father's trip episode from last season.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 18, 2018, 02:32:55 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 18, 2018, 05:20:16 PM

I don't want to brag or anything, but that pic confirms that I am not just a dead ringer for williamnylander from the neck up.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on September 18, 2018, 05:23:41 PM
Man, he's looking like a Norse god for real now.  I may have to make a poster of this and hide it from my wife.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 18, 2018, 06:24:54 PM

That's just William Nylander's head photo-shopped on to Chris Hemsworth's body.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2018, 06:53:03 PM
But he's so small!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on September 18, 2018, 08:09:22 PM
Pffft, he probably can't even bench 300 lb.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 18, 2018, 11:28:06 PM
Take off that blue shirt clown, you aint got no contract.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 18, 2018, 11:51:24 PM
Take off that blue shirt clown, you aint got no contract.

O (https://www.instagram.com/p/BIIV87kAB2P) K (http://i.imgur.com/0uFLoxk.jpg)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 19, 2018, 01:27:22 AM

You know this site turned into nothing but sexy photos of William Nylander so gradually, I didn't even notice.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 19, 2018, 08:08:57 AM

Uh oh.

This would be funnier if Adidas didn't own Reebok
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: RedLeaf on September 19, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
I realize that this comment may go against the grain of many fans on this board, but Im really starting to think the Leafs would be better off trying to trade William Nylander to shore up the defense.

They already have a plethora of star forwards in this lineup, with or without Nylander in the fold, and with guys like Andreas Johnnson and Kasperi Kapanen ready to take the next step this season, the forward group is set for years to come. Their archilles heel right now is not having nearly enough capable D-men to truly round out the team into cup contending form.

I dont have trade proposals , but I think a solid defenceman could be shaken free from a team looking for a gifted young forward of Nylanders ilk.

Winning the Tavares sweepstakes has given the club the opportunity to make a trade like this without sacrificing too much offence, and no matter what people say about the new NHL, I still strongly believe you win championships with solid defence.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on September 19, 2018, 10:02:38 AM
I realize that this comment may go against the grain of many fans on this board, but I’m really starting to think the Leafs would be better off trying to trade William Nylander to shore up the defense.

They already have a plethora of star forwards in this lineup, with or without Nylander in the fold, and with guys like Andreas Johnnson and Kasperi Kapanen ready to take the next step this season, the forward group is set for years to come. Their archilles heel right now is not having nearly enough capable D-men to truly round out the team into cup contending form.

I don’t have trade proposals , but I think a solid defenceman could be shaken free from a team looking for a gifted young forward of Nylanders ilk.

Winning the Tavares sweepstakes has given the club the opportunity to make a trade like this without sacrificing too much offence, and no matter what people say about the ‘new’ NHL, I still strongly believe you win championships with solid defence.

I hear what you're saying, but I can't agree on this one.  I think Nylander is an elite level winger, and you'll never get a fair piece back for that.  I think he's ready to have a breakout year, a little more luck and a little more ice time and he could push through to be a point a game player this season.  Trading him for a steady young dman would have shades of Hall for Larsson type deal, and we all know how that one worked out with Hall just winning the Hart trophy.

It's funny that the apparent ask for Willy's contract is in the $8M range, and I think he and his agent knows he's ready to earn that money.  If we get him on a lower cap hit, his contract will probably look like a bargain in 3 years.

You brought up the plethora of young wingers, I say let the Johnsson and Kapanens of the world prove themselves as good scoring wingers, and if one of them breaks through and can score 20 goals, he's the guy you move in a trade.  I just think Nylander has a next level type of skill that the other guys don't possess, so you'll do much better in a deal giving away a good scoring winger as opposed to someone like Nylander who can be more than that.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: RedLeaf on September 19, 2018, 10:20:58 AM
I realize that this comment may go against the grain of many fans on this board, but Im really starting to think the Leafs would be better off trying to trade William Nylander to shore up the defense.

They already have a plethora of star forwards in this lineup, with or without Nylander in the fold, and with guys like Andreas Johnnson and Kasperi Kapanen ready to take the next step this season, the forward group is set for years to come. Their archilles heel right now is not having nearly enough capable D-men to truly round out the team into cup contending form.

I dont have trade proposals , but I think a solid defenceman could be shaken free from a team looking for a gifted young forward of Nylanders ilk.

Winning the Tavares sweepstakes has given the club the opportunity to make a trade like this without sacrificing too much offence, and no matter what people say about the new NHL, I still strongly believe you win championships with solid defence.

I hear what you're saying, but I can't agree on this one.  I think Nylander is an elite level winger, and you'll never get a fair piece back for that.  I think he's ready to have a breakout year, a little more luck and a little more ice time and he could push through to be a point a game player this season.  Trading him for a steady young dman would have shades of Hall for Larsson type deal, and we all know how that one worked out with Hall just winning the Hart trophy.

It's funny that the apparent ask for Willy's contract is in the $8M range, and I think he and his agent knows he's ready to earn that money.  If we get him on a lower cap hit, his contract will probably look like a bargain in 3 years.

You brought up the plethora of young wingers, I say let the Johnsson and Kapanens of the world prove themselves as good scoring wingers, and if one of them breaks through and can score 20 goals, he's the guy you move in a trade.  I just think Nylander has a next level type of skill that the other guys don't possess, so you'll do much better in a deal giving away a good scoring winger as opposed to someone like Nylander who can be more than that.

I think we really need to see how his contract plays out , and mostly how the team plays with the defense they have now before we can gauge which argument holds water. I like Nylander, but if there is a trade available that allows us to greatly improve the defence, I wouldnt hesitate moving him. The bigger picture here is we now have the movable pieces in place to shore up the teams weaknesses. If they can do that by moving out some of the lesser players , than Im all for that, but if the right defenceman becomes available that would bring this team closer to winning a championship, and Nylander is the ask, then you do it .
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 19, 2018, 03:24:26 PM
I look like Willy from like, the temples up. But I have black hair.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 19, 2018, 10:12:29 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 19, 2018, 10:17:51 PM

I'm starting to think Herman didn't just "find" those shirtless pictures.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 19, 2018, 10:27:03 PM
Trading him for a steady young dman would have shades of Hall for Larsson type deal, and we all know how that one worked out with Hall just winning the Hart trophy.

Yeah. I'm open to moving anyone if the result is a net positive for the Leafs but I don't have any real reason to think a Nylander for a defenseman deal would be that. Odds are that you'd get a solid, unspectacular defenseman in the Larsson mold.

If the Leafs see that their defense is really holding them back they'd be much better off looking to acquire an older solid-type and pay a price that's more in line with what, say, Dallas paid for Methot or something along the lines of the Ryan McDonagh deal.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 19, 2018, 10:31:15 PM

I'm starting to think Herman didn't just "find" those shirtless pictures.

First, how dare you take this long to start thinking that.

Second, if someone asks for something on this board that you can easily oblige, who amongst us would not gladly help his or her fellow neighbour?

Third, you should see the video it came from
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 20, 2018, 04:30:11 PM

Which implies that Matthews, as he mentioned earlier this week, will be on the Marner-Tavares PP unit.

This would work for me.
Tavares
Matthews - Marleau - Marner
Rielly

Kadri
Kapanen - Johnsson - Nylander
Gardiner
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 20, 2018, 05:05:27 PM

I'm very quick to give execs and coaches crap when they regurgitate tired and worn out cliches so, in the spirit of fairness, I suppose I have to give Babcock a lot of credit for saying one of the truest things I've ever heard a coach say about an issue that's been talked to death.

The idea that the best way for players to deal with media scrutiny in Toronto being to have a full, rounded life outside of hockey seems like a remarkably insightful and intelligent thing to say. It's the sort of thing that's been nipped around the edges here but usually in a pejorative way("He's not going to care about the newspapers, he's out partying" etc) and we saw it in a regrettably unfair way with the Wellwood situation. Traditional "Gud Hockey Pro" logic is for guys to be 100% committed to the game but I think that's the sort of thing that can cause burnout and getting too involved with pressure and bad press. 

So kudos Coach Babcock for encouraging your players to have well-rounded lives. I hope this means fewer rules on beards and more team field trips to the ROM.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on September 20, 2018, 07:19:00 PM
I hope this means fewer rules on beards and more team field trips to the ROM.

I'm dougie hamilton, and I approve this message.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2018, 08:27:08 AM

Which implies that Matthews, as he mentioned earlier this week, will be on the Marner-Tavares PP unit.

This would work for me.
Tavares
Matthews - Marleau - Marner
Rielly

Kadri
Kapanen - Johnsson - Nylander
Gardiner

Sure sounds like the plan is for Kadri to stay on the Marner unit as well. At least to start.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 21, 2018, 09:15:37 AM
Sure sounds like the plan is for Kadri to stay on the Marner unit as well. At least to start.

Tavares
Matthews - Kadri - Marner
Rielly

Marleau
Kapanen - Johnsson - Nylander
Gardiner

I see they're not even going to bother giving the second unit any time. And assuming Lindholm's line is drawing all the penalties.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
Sure sounds like the plan is for Kadri to stay on the Marner unit as well. At least to start.

Tavares
Matthews - Kadri - Marner
Rielly

Marleau
Kapanen - Johnsson - Nylander
Gardiner

I see they're not even going to bother giving the second unit any time. And assuming Lindholm's line is drawing all the penalties.


Seeing as how Kapanen isn't getting PP reps in pre-season, I'd assuming that Ennis would start in his spot. Also gives them a left-handed shot on that wall which is what I think the coaching staff would prefer.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 21, 2018, 11:00:25 AM
Seeing as how Kapanen isn't getting PP reps in pre-season, I'd assuming that Ennis would start in his spot. Also gives them a left-handed shot on that wall which is what I think the coaching staff would prefer.

We'll know by preseason game 5 what the opening night plans will likely be for special teams when the two split squads are consolidated into the Leafs + longer looks and cuts to the Marlies.

If they're going to super stack a PP1, I think it would make sense to spin up the fourth line wingers (Johnsson, Kapanen) on PP2 as they won't be getting much 5v5 time (probably not much PP time either, given who are being rolled out first).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2018, 11:02:35 AM
If they're going to super stack a PP1, I think it would make sense to spin up the fourth line wingers (Johnsson, Kapanen) on PP2 as they won't be getting much 5v5 time (probably not much PP time either, given who are being rolled out first).

My guess is Johnsson gets PP minutes and Kapanen gets PK minutes (I'm expecting Hyman-Brown and Lindholm-Kapanen to be the primary PKers, with Tavares-Marner coming out at the end).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on September 21, 2018, 11:22:32 AM
If they're going to super stack a PP1, I think it would make sense to spin up the fourth line wingers (Johnsson, Kapanen) on PP2 as they won't be getting much 5v5 time (probably not much PP time either, given who are being rolled out first).

My guess is Johnsson gets PP minutes and Kapanen gets PK minutes (I'm expecting Hyman-Brown and Lindholm-Kapanen to be the primary PKers, with Tavares-Marner coming out at the end).

You know what's gonna rule?  End of PK Tavares-Marner are already out there.... and the guy coming out of the box gets subbed for Kadri for a short spin at 5v5.... then comes the Matthews line to restart the 5v5 rotation.

Why are my pants feeling tight?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 21, 2018, 11:28:25 AM
You know what's gonna rule?  End of PK Tavares-Marner are already out there.... and the guy coming out of the box gets subbed for Kadri for a short spin at 5v5.... then comes the Matthews line to restart the 5v5 rotation.

Why are my pants feeling tight?

One of my English class student teachers blessed us with this sage adage: Sweet on the lips go straight to the hips.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 21, 2018, 12:13:22 PM
If they're going to super stack a PP1, I think it would make sense to spin up the fourth line wingers (Johnsson, Kapanen) on PP2 as they won't be getting much 5v5 time (probably not much PP time either, given who are being rolled out first).

My guess is Johnsson gets PP minutes and Kapanen gets PK minutes (I'm expecting Hyman-Brown and Lindholm-Kapanen to be the primary PKers, with Tavares-Marner coming out at the end).

You know what's gonna rule?  End of PK Tavares-Marner are already out there.... and the guy coming out of the box gets subbed for Kadri for a short spin at 5v5.... then comes the Matthews line to restart the 5v5 rotation.

Why are my pants feeling tight?

Well, unless Max Domi drops Matthews into Concussion Hell in Game One.  At least we still have Martin to





 :-X

 ;)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on September 21, 2018, 12:15:17 PM
If they're going to super stack a PP1, I think it would make sense to spin up the fourth line wingers (Johnsson, Kapanen) on PP2 as they won't be getting much 5v5 time (probably not much PP time either, given who are being rolled out first).

You're operating under the rash assumption that PP1 will fail to score, allowing PP2 to even take the ice...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on September 21, 2018, 01:05:30 PM
If they're going to super stack a PP1, I think it would make sense to spin up the fourth line wingers (Johnsson, Kapanen) on PP2 as they won't be getting much 5v5 time (probably not much PP time either, given who are being rolled out first).

You're operating under the rash assumption that PP1 will fail to score, allowing PP2 to even take the ice...
............and we know that just won't happen!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 23, 2018, 09:54:34 PM
NSFW (https://youtu.be/yk6AKhA0m4U)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on September 23, 2018, 10:08:07 PM
NSFW (https://youtu.be/yk6AKhA0m4U)

Id say so.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 23, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
NSFW (https://youtu.be/yk6AKhA0m4U)

I'm currently working on a handsomeness quotient per point scored per cap % post that will get to the bottom, heyo, of this.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 24, 2018, 05:03:25 PM
Even more NSFW than the last one:
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on September 24, 2018, 07:41:16 PM
No herman, everybody knows he's soft and lazy.

 ;)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 25, 2018, 09:59:52 PM
No herman, everybody knows he's soft and lazy.

 ;)


Indeed

Full transcript: https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/09/25/kyle-dubas-on-the-william-nylander-contract-negotiations-we-continue-to-work-primarily-on-long-term-deals/
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on September 26, 2018, 09:43:02 AM
Interesting answer regarding the defensemen at the bottom of the lineup from that interview:

Quote
With our defense, it is certainly a question that people bring up all the time and I always was more bullish about it because Id watched a lot of these players that werent household names or had played for the Marlies. We knew they were on their way. Now that they are here and you see a Travis Dermott hes been injured, but we know he is good. Igor Ozhiganov comes over and he has played very well for the first stretch. Justin Holl has played well. Marincin has played well. Calle Rosen has played excellent. Youve got Connor Carrick in the mix.

I think weve got three more games here. Youre not going to base it all on how they play in these three games, but they are going to help us make our decision for who stays and who goes. When it comes to the seventh guy, if he is not waiver eligible, then you can have him go and play with the Marlies. And then well see how guys make their way through the season and we can always make a change then.

Noticed that Carrick looks like an odd man out, and Borgman wasn't even mentioned.

The biggest thing I noticed there is (paraphrasing) if you aren't in the top 6 and you are waiver exempt, you will probably be on the Marlies. 

Waiver-eligible:
Carrick
Holl
Marincin

Waiver-exempt:
Dermott
Borgman
Rosen
Ozhiganov

As of right now, it seems as though Rosen and Ozhiganov have the upper hand for the bottom pair- but that is with Dermott injured.  So Borgman definitely goes down.  Question is, who else do you send through waivers?  Who do you think gets through and who do you think gets claimed?  I think an argument can be made that all three of the guys listed as waiver-eligible run the risk of getting claimed. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 26, 2018, 09:52:09 AM

Toronto comes in #3 (behind some order of Nashville and Tampa).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 27, 2018, 03:20:56 PM
Renaud Lavoie on the Leafs last night in Montreal.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/jeff-blair-show/mike-babcock-may-take-page-penguins/

Two #1 centers, a #2 center and a superstar winger on PP1 8)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on September 27, 2018, 07:44:44 PM

Poll on who should be more insulted by the latest Leaf Report podcast:
1. CarltonTheBear
2. herman
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on September 27, 2018, 08:14:22 PM
Interesting answer regarding the defensemen at the bottom of the lineup from that interview:

Quote
With our defense, it is certainly a question that people bring up all the time and I always was more bullish about it because Id watched a lot of these players that werent household names or had played for the Marlies. We knew they were on their way. Now that they are here and you see a Travis Dermott hes been injured, but we know he is good. Igor Ozhiganov comes over and he has played very well for the first stretch. Justin Holl has played well. Marincin has played well. Calle Rosen has played excellent. Youve got Connor Carrick in the mix.

I think weve got three more games here. Youre not going to base it all on how they play in these three games, but they are going to help us make our decision for who stays and who goes. When it comes to the seventh guy, if he is not waiver eligible, then you can have him go and play with the Marlies. And then well see how guys make their way through the season and we can always make a change then.

Noticed that Carrick looks like an odd man out, and Borgman wasn't even mentioned.

The biggest thing I noticed there is (paraphrasing) if you aren't in the top 6 and you are waiver exempt, you will probably be on the Marlies. 

Waiver-eligible:
Carrick
Holl
Marincin

Waiver-exempt:
Dermott
Borgman
Rosen
Ozhiganov

As of right now, it seems as though Rosen and Ozhiganov have the upper hand for the bottom pair- but that is with Dermott injured.  So Borgman definitely goes down.  Question is, who else do you send through waivers?  Who do you think gets through and who do you think gets claimed?  I think an argument can be made that all three of the guys listed as waiver-eligible run the risk of getting claimed.

I think of the players who'd require waivers to be sent down, Carrick is the only one you'd care about losing. No offence to Holl or Marncin, but for them, they'd probably be better off catching on with another team.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on September 27, 2018, 08:26:03 PM
No herman, everybody knows he's soft and lazy.

 ;)

Lol, I hate to say it, but if one is using a "neutral zone stick check" stat to refute a narrative about being soft, I'm not sure it'll move the needle much.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 28, 2018, 08:10:23 AM

Poll on who should be more insulted by the latest Leaf Report podcast:
1. CarltonTheBear
2. herman

Did they talk smack about SDA?!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on September 28, 2018, 09:20:11 AM
Interesting answer regarding the defensemen at the bottom of the lineup from that interview:

Quote
With our defense, it is certainly a question that people bring up all the time and I always was more bullish about it because Id watched a lot of these players that werent household names or had played for the Marlies. We knew they were on their way. Now that they are here and you see a Travis Dermott hes been injured, but we know he is good. Igor Ozhiganov comes over and he has played very well for the first stretch. Justin Holl has played well. Marincin has played well. Calle Rosen has played excellent. Youve got Connor Carrick in the mix.

I think weve got three more games here. Youre not going to base it all on how they play in these three games, but they are going to help us make our decision for who stays and who goes. When it comes to the seventh guy, if he is not waiver eligible, then you can have him go and play with the Marlies. And then well see how guys make their way through the season and we can always make a change then.

Noticed that Carrick looks like an odd man out, and Borgman wasn't even mentioned.

The biggest thing I noticed there is (paraphrasing) if you aren't in the top 6 and you are waiver exempt, you will probably be on the Marlies. 

Waiver-eligible:
Carrick
Holl
Marincin

Waiver-exempt:
Dermott
Borgman
Rosen
Ozhiganov

As of right now, it seems as though Rosen and Ozhiganov have the upper hand for the bottom pair- but that is with Dermott injured.  So Borgman definitely goes down.  Question is, who else do you send through waivers?  Who do you think gets through and who do you think gets claimed?  I think an argument can be made that all three of the guys listed as waiver-eligible run the risk of getting claimed.
Rosen has been absolute trash. Ditto Marincin and Carrick.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 28, 2018, 02:22:12 PM
Kappi promoted to Tavares line. All killer no filler.

FYI: Hyman not in the lineup
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on September 28, 2018, 02:28:27 PM
Kappi promoted to Tavares line. All killer no filler.

FYI: Hyman not in the lineup

Kapanen playing left wing or Marner?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on September 28, 2018, 02:30:19 PM
Kappi promoted to Tavares line. All killer no filler.

FYI: Hyman not in the lineup

Kapanen playing left wing or Marner?

Kappy
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on September 28, 2018, 11:15:31 PM
This is it, the best roster well have, this is the peak, the cap will not allow this roster going forward. Do it now. Work out next years cap, it doesnt all fit. Win NOW!

Show me the math where this group comes back under the cap.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 29, 2018, 12:28:15 AM

I won't link the tweet but Justin Bourne made a really great point about how a really deadly PP, like the Leafs should be able to put together, can make other teams more cautious about taking penalties. Effectively making a terrific PP actually serving the purpose people think enforcers do.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on September 29, 2018, 07:58:01 AM
Zaitsevs defensive zone passing looked pretty bad.

5-on-5 the leafs really havent been very good against teams projected to be at the bottom of the league.

I like Dermott and I wonder how hed do on the right next to Rielly in big minutes.

Rielly-Dermott (25 min)
Gardiner-Zaitsev (22 min)
Hainsey-Oz (13 min)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on September 30, 2018, 07:03:57 AM
Zaitsevs defensive zone passing looked pretty bad.

5-on-5 the leafs really havent been very good against teams projected to be at the bottom of the league.

I like Dermott and I wonder how hed do on the right next to Rielly in big minutes.

Rielly-Dermott (25 min)
Gardiner-Zaitsev (22 min)
Hainsey-Oz (13 min)

Going on nothing but my gut, I'd think that the bottom pairing would be awfully slow
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on September 30, 2018, 09:36:30 AM
Zaitsevs defensive zone passing looked pretty bad.

5-on-5 the leafs really havent been very good against teams projected to be at the bottom of the league.

I like Dermott and I wonder how hed do on the right next to Rielly in big minutes.

Rielly-Dermott (25 min)
Gardiner-Zaitsev (22 min)
Hainsey-Oz (13 min)

Going on nothing but my gut, I'd think that the bottom pairing would be awfully slow

Yeah, I totally agree. Wasnt sure what to do with it. We still need a trade.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on September 30, 2018, 12:03:19 PM
Didn't watch last night stinker, but McBackup let in 5 goals and still won 3rd star?  That is weird.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on September 30, 2018, 02:10:08 PM
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/084/533/cfe.gif)
PRE-SEASON OVER!!!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 30, 2018, 02:28:56 PM
Didn't watch last night stinker, but McBackup let in 5 goals and still won 3rd star?  That is weird.
Yup. Weird when a goalie gets a star letting in that many. Didn't watch the game but I'm guessing he was good.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on September 30, 2018, 02:37:07 PM
Didn't watch last night stinker, but McBackup let in 5 goals and still won 3rd star?  That is weird.
Yup. Weird when a goalie gets a star letting in that many. Didn't watch the game but I'm guessing he was good.

All-Marlies roster where the forwards spent the night blowing the zone with the D attempting stretch passes into coverage and failing over and over and over again. Essentially a non-stop turn-over fest that force McBackup to make dozens of high danger point blank saves. I'm not sure he deserved a star but the 5 GA wasn't reflective of any poor play on his part.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 30, 2018, 04:09:24 PM
Didn't watch last night stinker, but McBackup let in 5 goals and still won 3rd star?  That is weird.
Yup. Weird when a goalie gets a star letting in that many. Didn't watch the game but I'm guessing he was good.

All-Marlies roster where the forwards spent the night blowing the zone with the D attempting stretch passes into coverage and failing over and over and over again. Essentially a non-stop turn-over fest that force McBackup to make dozens of high danger point blank saves. I'm not sure he deserved a star but the 5 GA wasn't reflective of any poor play on his part.
Well then it's still McBackup over Sparks if we're keeping the better goalie?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: caveman on September 30, 2018, 05:52:16 PM
Do Borgman and Rosen pack up for Europe now that they have been sent down ?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Mr. Leaf on October 01, 2018, 09:11:58 AM
Do Borgman and Rosen pack up for Europe now that they have been sent down ?
I doubt it, since they didn't last season.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 02, 2018, 04:23:03 PM
(https://www.bardown.com/polopoly_fs/1.1184348!/fileimage/httpImage/image.png_gen/derivatives/default/leafs-win.png)
"This is who NHL19 predicted who will win the Stanley Cup this year" 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHsBlkXTWQA
Look at the nests on Patty, Freddy and Naz ;D
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on October 02, 2018, 06:09:49 PM
There should of been a 16 year old boy off to the side portraying Marner
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 02, 2018, 09:30:51 PM
https://theathletic.com/446671/2018/10/02/mirtle-what-are-realistic-expectations-for-the-new-improved-kyle-dubas-led-maple-leafs-this-season/

Mirtle gives an overview of what changes the Leafs have made to the lineup (Tavares!) and how that might affect their standings this season.

More importantly, he got to talk to Morgan Rielly about what the D corps have been working on. Again, no coincidence there is going to be a fairly heavy Marlie presence on the roster.

Quote
Me and Jake (Gardiner) really wanted to improve on that (D-zone play) and I feel like we put some time in during the off-season to work on specific skills that are going to help with that. I think thatll lead to smoother breakouts. Its (about making) quicker plays into the middle (of the ice).

Theres a lot of responsibility on (our centres) to be in the right place just so the D-men can almost make a play without looking. Theres lots of plays where you try to pass the puck underneath a guys stick because thats the only option, to go to the middle. We worked on that a lot. I feel like were a bit more comfortable in our system.

Will that mean fewer hard outs and long passes out of the defensive zone?

Well still do that, Rielly said. Where the weak-side winger goes across the ice, up to that blueline, and try to get it to him. But not every time. I think there was times last year where, if we were in doubt, we would just do that automatically. I think this year we feel a little more comfortable and well be able to make those plays underneath (the centreman) a little easier.

That ability to make small, quick plays out of the zone always felt like a focal point for the Marlies last season but one that didnt quite translate to the Leafs. That could change with slightly different personnel and a different mindset in place.

Rielly certainly made it sound like the Leafs would look more Marlies-like in that regard.

You go back for a puck and you just want to get it to a forwards hands as quick as you can, he said of his focus in the off-season. Then jump up as the fourth guy in the rush without the puck. As opposed to try to carry it all the way up. Just go back and make one quick play and be out of the zone and going back and playing offence.

Lots of (what I worked on this summer) has to do with defensive stuff. I dont mean blocking shots and stuff. I mean the little smaller plays you have to make underneath peoples stick or little small ones over peoples stick. Me and Jake definitely spent a lot of time working on those little skills that are important for a D-man to be good at when breaking the puck out.

i.e. play defense like Dermott and Sandin.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 04, 2018, 03:04:25 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 05, 2018, 01:59:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EErSKhC0CZs
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 05, 2018, 02:11:26 PM
https://theathletic.com/446671/2018/10/02/mirtle-what-are-realistic-expectations-for-the-new-improved-kyle-dubas-led-maple-leafs-this-season/

Mirtle gives an overview of what changes the Leafs have made to the lineup (Tavares!) and how that might affect their standings this season.

More importantly, he got to talk to Morgan Rielly about what the D corps have been working on. Again, no coincidence there is going to be a fairly heavy Marlie presence on the roster.

Quote
Me and Jake (Gardiner) really wanted to improve on that (D-zone play) and I feel like we put some time in during the off-season to work on specific skills that are going to help with that. I think thatll lead to smoother breakouts. Its (about making) quicker plays into the middle (of the ice).

Theres a lot of responsibility on (our centres) to be in the right place just so the D-men can almost make a play without looking. Theres lots of plays where you try to pass the puck underneath a guys stick because thats the only option, to go to the middle. We worked on that a lot. I feel like were a bit more comfortable in our system.

Will that mean fewer hard outs and long passes out of the defensive zone?

Well still do that, Rielly said. Where the weak-side winger goes across the ice, up to that blueline, and try to get it to him. But not every time. I think there was times last year where, if we were in doubt, we would just do that automatically. I think this year we feel a little more comfortable and well be able to make those plays underneath (the centreman) a little easier.

That ability to make small, quick plays out of the zone always felt like a focal point for the Marlies last season but one that didnt quite translate to the Leafs. That could change with slightly different personnel and a different mindset in place.

Rielly certainly made it sound like the Leafs would look more Marlies-like in that regard.

You go back for a puck and you just want to get it to a forwards hands as quick as you can, he said of his focus in the off-season. Then jump up as the fourth guy in the rush without the puck. As opposed to try to carry it all the way up. Just go back and make one quick play and be out of the zone and going back and playing offence.

Lots of (what I worked on this summer) has to do with defensive stuff. I dont mean blocking shots and stuff. I mean the little smaller plays you have to make underneath peoples stick or little small ones over peoples stick. Me and Jake definitely spent a lot of time working on those little skills that are important for a D-man to be good at when breaking the puck out.

i.e. play defense like Dermott and Sandin.

I hope they do use the better outlet pass this year but I saw an awful lot of those bad stretch passes most of the night against Montreal.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 05, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
I hope they do use the better outlet pass this year but I saw an awful lot of those bad stretch passes most of the night against Montreal.

The centerman needs to be in the right position and not being covered to well to use that option.  If those aren't there, then yes, you'll probably continue to see "bad" stretch passes.  But that is what they are being asked to do.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 05, 2018, 05:16:09 PM
I hope they do use the better outlet pass this year but I saw an awful lot of those bad stretch passes most of the night against Montreal.

The centerman needs to be in the right position and not being covered to well to use that option.  If those aren't there, then yes, you'll probably continue to see "bad" stretch passes.  But that is what they are being asked to do.

I think that when teams play good proper defense, like the habs did the other night, there isn't any avenue to complete these passes, so we see defenders going to plan B a bit, and carrying it up further than they normally would be comfortable, and that's also when you see them dump it in, once they've gone as far as the blue line.

Then some people complain that they're playing dump and chase.  Unfortunately, that can be the only way to spread out the opposing players when they're jamming up the neutral zone...get the puck past them.

The breakout plays make sense when your forwards get open, but when other teams effectively jam up the neutral zone, and the Leaf forwards don't fight to get open enough, there'll always be issues in completing those neat little neutral zone passing plays.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 05, 2018, 06:55:18 PM
I hope they do use the better outlet pass this year but I saw an awful lot of those bad stretch passes most of the night against Montreal.

The centerman needs to be in the right position and not being covered to well to use that option.  If those aren't there, then yes, you'll probably continue to see "bad" stretch passes.  But that is what they are being asked to do.

I think that when teams play good proper defense, like the habs did the other night, there isn't any avenue to complete these passes, so we see defenders going to plan B a bit, and carrying it up further than they normally would be comfortable, and that's also when you see them dump it in, once they've gone as far as the blue line.

Then some people complain that they're playing dump and chase.  Unfortunately, that can be the only way to spread out the opposing players when they're jamming up the neutral zone...get the puck past them.

The breakout plays make sense when your forwards get open, but when other teams effectively jam up the neutral zone, and the Leaf forwards don't fight to get open enough, there'll always be issues in completing those neat little neutral zone passing plays.

We'll see what happens tomorrow night, but I think that some of the problem with the Leafs play the other night was players trying to be too pretty in some situations rather than just making the safe play.  There were a couple of times in the defensive zone where Matthews was trying to make a back hand pass towards the front of his own net.  I don't think those sorts of plays are going to get made in the second game. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 09, 2018, 05:33:51 AM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 09, 2018, 08:40:42 AM
I'm on #teamMarty
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 09, 2018, 10:05:59 AM
Well, we went from great goaltending depth to no depth and no capable backup. I'll have to trust Dubas on this one. The first game was not pretty.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on October 10, 2018, 12:43:16 AM
Morgan Rielly is tied with Matthews in points? What?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 10, 2018, 07:30:35 AM
Tavares, that selfish bastard: 6g 0a.  lol
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 10, 2018, 08:45:08 AM
Tavares, that selfish bastard: 6g 0a.  lol

Cy Young.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 11:45:31 AM
How Babcock lines up the forwards, in my estimation:

In Babcock's ideal world, each forward line has a centre and a primary complementary transition winger/pseudo-centre of the opposite shooting hand: Matthews-Nylander, Kadri-Marner, Tavares-Marner. Swinging through low in the zone to pick up a slip pass from the retrieving defender, the centre goes up the ice with his primary winger and one defender in line with the rush, and one hanging back for support. The weak-side winger is already up the ice either open for a stretch pass, or backing off the defense to the blue line. If your primary winger is Nylander, then just let him do his thing and get open in the OZ.

The third man is the guy who is 'gud without the puck': Hyman, Marleau, Brown. He is ideally on the centre's backhand, as his primary role is not to play the puck in transition but to dig it out of the corners if the C and primary winger run into trouble moving up the ice with possession. He is probably the defensive 'conscience' in the eyes of fans, even though the responsibility Babcock places on the centre.

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In Babcock's ideal world, he would have two of each left shooting and right shooting centres, one offensively inclined and one defensively inclined. Obviously the salary cap world is not ideal, so allowances have to be made. I'm pretty sure Babcock has his forwards in these buckets to mix and match with:

Centres (duh): Matthews, Tavares, Kadri, Gauthier, Lindholm
Primary wingers: Nylander, Marner
GwotP: Marleau, Hyman, Brown, Johnsson, Kapanen*, Ennis

* Kapanen is arguably a primary, but Babcock wants him to be a GwotP heavy forechecker; with his speed, I'd say that's not a bad call.

So what will happen when Nylander returns? I'd like to try this:

Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Johnsson/Lindholm - Lindholm/Gauthier - Leivo
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 10, 2018, 11:49:33 AM

I appreciate why this isn't the whole story but it says something pretty remarkable about this team when one of the good without the puck guys has the 33rd most goals in NHL history.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on October 10, 2018, 11:54:40 AM
So what will happen when Nylander returns? I'd like to try this:

Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Johnsson/Lindholm - Lindholm/Gauthier - Leivo
I have a feeling that Babcock has Marleau mentally slotted to be the left wing on the 1st line and is most likely to try that first when Nylander returns. With any luck Kapanen only slips down to the 3rd line when that experiment starts.

I actually prefer your lines, though, since I think Kapanen can develop into the perfect complement to the line, and there's a good history with that Marleau-Kadri pairing from last year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 11:58:14 AM

I appreciate why this isn't the whole story but it says something pretty remarkable about this team when one of the good without the puck guys has the 33rd most goals in NHL history.

Maybe it should be re-categorized as "doesn't need to hold the puck to be good". These guys can't extend plays with their puck control, but are effective with minimal puck contact be it through shooting from soft ice (Marleau, Johnsson), or player displacement (Hyman), or defensive support (Komarov, Brown).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 10, 2018, 12:01:35 PM
Morgan Rielly is tied with Matthews in points? What?

He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 10, 2018, 12:02:11 PM

I appreciate why this isn't the whole story but it says something pretty remarkable about this team when one of the good without the puck guys has the 33rd most goals in NHL history.

Maybe it should be re-categorized as "doesn't need to hold the puck to be good". These guys can't extend plays with their puck control, but are effective with minimal puck contact be it through shooting from soft ice (Marleau, Johnsson), or player displacement (Hyman), or defensive support (Komarov, Brown).
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I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment, Marleau is good without the puck. That he's still an effective goal scorer on top of that is just icing on a cake that's already got a buttload of icing on it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 10, 2018, 12:06:41 PM

I appreciate why this isn't the whole story but it says something pretty remarkable about this team when one of the good without the puck guys has the 33rd most goals in NHL history.

Since you brought him up I'll just say that I think most of us, myself included, don't appreciate how good he has been for the Leafs.  He may be invisible (or seemingly so) on a few nights, and he gets lost in the reflected sparkle of the youngsters, but I don't recall many games when he has hurt the Leafs.  And he still can skate with anyone, and make gorgeous plays, like the assist on the MTL winner.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2018, 12:09:32 PM
He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 12:10:08 PM

I appreciate why this isn't the whole story but it says something pretty remarkable about this team when one of the good without the puck guys has the 33rd most goals in NHL history.

Maybe it should be re-categorized as "doesn't need to hold the puck to be good". These guys can't extend plays with their puck control, but are effective with minimal puck contact be it through shooting from soft ice (Marleau, Johnsson), or player displacement (Hyman), or defensive support (Komarov, Brown).

I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment, Marleau is good without the puck. That he's still an effective goal scorer on top of that is just icing on a cake that's already got a buttload of icing on it.

Oh I know. Your observation pointed out an opportunity for further clarification though. Every player bucket has a defensive or offensive inclination and it makes lineup making an interesting exercise in synergy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 12:20:28 PM
I have a feeling that Babcock has Marleau mentally slotted to be the left wing on the 1st line and is most likely to try that first when Nylander returns. With any luck Kapanen only slips down to the 3rd line when that experiment starts.

I actually prefer your lines, though, since I think Kapanen can develop into the perfect complement to the line, and there's a good history with that Marleau-Kadri pairing from last year.

Thanks!

I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm guessing Marleau with Matthews might be a Marleau-preservation thing. Playing with Kadri would be hard matching against top offensive lines. Playing with Matthews would net him their top checking units (and only a few teams have both in one line), and they'd invariably be focused on Matthews-Nylander. It's easier minutes playing offense in general.

That being said, when Matthews and Nylander get caught in their own zone, it's firewagon stuff.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 10, 2018, 12:24:36 PM
He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.

Thanks, and makes sense given we are binge-watching That 80s Show thus far.

I guess I wonder whether it is even possible to "tighten up the defense" given the way the offense is structured and the parity in the league today.  The tale of last night's game was that Dallas's big line was superb.  The only difference is that we had 2 big superb lines.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on October 10, 2018, 12:29:16 PM
I have a feeling that Babcock has Marleau mentally slotted to be the left wing on the 1st line and is most likely to try that first when Nylander returns. With any luck Kapanen only slips down to the 3rd line when that experiment starts.

I actually prefer your lines, though, since I think Kapanen can develop into the perfect complement to the line, and there's a good history with that Marleau-Kadri pairing from last year.

Thanks!

I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm guessing Marleau with Matthews might be a Marleau-preservation thing. Playing with Kadri would be hard matching against top offensive lines. Playing with Matthews would net him their top checking units (and only a few teams have both in one line), and they'd invariably be focused on Matthews-Nylander. It's easier minutes playing offense in general.

That being said, when Matthews and Nylander get caught in their own zone, it's firewagon stuff.

Not sure I'm following the logic on that one. Chances are the left winger on Matthews' line is going to get a steady diet of going into OZ corners against a top pairing D (and also get double-teamed when the opposing center arrives) on any of those myriad dump & chase entries. That's going to take a big toll on his body over the course of a season compared to what he'd see as a 3rd line hard match winger where he's mostly covering the point or dipping down to help on the wall.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 10, 2018, 12:40:06 PM
He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.
He's also paired with hainsey so I would think that would have some effect on numbers?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 10, 2018, 12:56:23 PM
Morgan Rielly is tied with Matthews in points? What?

He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.
The point man on that PP is going to rack up the points.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2018, 01:19:55 PM
Thanks, and makes sense given we are binge-watching That 80s Show thus far.

I guess I wonder whether it is even possible to "tighten up the defense" given the way the offense is structured and the parity in the league today.  The tale of last night's game was that Dallas's big line was superb.  The only difference is that we had 2 big superb lines.

I can't imagine we're ever really going to move away from the fast pace, high event type of hockey. I think the easiest way to "tighten up the defence" though would be to focus on the teams breakout plays, which is of course something that's been talked about for a year now. Someone posted yesterday about how many failed breakouts attempts we've had via using the stretch pass through the first 3 games, and it was pretty absurd. If you cut those even in half you'll go a long way to limited the other teams zone time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 01:23:14 PM
Not sure I'm following the logic on that one. Chances are the left winger on Matthews' line is going to get a steady diet of going into OZ corners against a top pairing D (and also get double-teamed when the opposing center arrives) on any of those myriad dump & chase entries. That's going to take a big toll on his body over the course of a season compared to what he'd see as a 3rd line hard match winger where he's mostly covering the point or dipping down to help on the wall.

Hmm, you're probably right, as that's definitely how they played with Hyman.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 01:34:02 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2018, 01:51:55 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.

He has an interesting suggestion on how to defend against a PP like the Leafs: essentially just give up defending the point/Rielly and play 4-on-4 down low. Makes sense. As good as Rielly is he's clearly the least dangerous offensive weapon out there, both in terms of pure talent and position on the ice. Generally speaking most PKs do keep all their defenders down low, but when the puck goes to the point one guy will usually go out to chase, and that spreads everyone out and opens up lanes.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on October 10, 2018, 02:10:39 PM
He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.

Thanks, and makes sense given we are binge-watching That 80s Show thus far.

I guess I wonder whether it is even possible to "tighten up the defense" given the way the offense is structured and the parity in the league today.  The tale of last night's game was that Dallas's big line was superb.  The only difference is that we had 2 big superb lines.

For me, it's not so much tightening up the defense or improving the defensive system or players. For me, it's all about eliminating the turnovers/mistakes.

I think if this current d-core can eliminate the mistakes, they'll be just fine. That being said, maybe this combination of players are unable to do so.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 10, 2018, 03:05:49 PM
Happy Kap got moved up and is making the most of the contract dispute :P Good for him. Had to catch the last couple the day after on Game in Six. Man, JT and Auston are SCORCHIN' on the highlights. What a boon to have 1A and 1B at center for the next 7 years! A lot of great passes as well. The offensive explosion by these studs get us to the 3-1 start.

We'll get better at D/G. All teams are shaky there to start seasons now, the forwards are all chomping at the bit. Team defense is poor. Once the grind of the season hits it'll settle. Every point is valuable though. Winning the Atlantic means a much easier road than friggin' ATL2 vs ATL3. I'm sure that's the goal of the Bolts and Bruins as well.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 03:31:18 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.

He has an interesting suggestion on how to defend against a PP like the Leafs: essentially just give up defending the point/Rielly and play 4-on-4 down low. Makes sense. As good as Rielly is he's clearly the least dangerous offensive weapon out there, both in terms of pure talent and position on the ice. Generally speaking most PKs do keep all their defenders down low, but when the puck goes to the point one guy will usually go out to chase, and that spreads everyone out and opens up lanes.

Another thing that Hitchcock outlines but doesn't say outright, is that there are different layers to assess: the system, the player's intention (adherence or deviation), the execution, the result. Hard for fans to see otherwise, but we are largely responding to results, whereas coaches' decisions are based on the underlying aspects. Adding further complexity is if a result went south due to execution, was it because of a physical lack, a skills-deficit, the opposing player just putting you in a no-win situation (e.g. blocking an Auston Matthews shot), or someone else in your 5-man unit dropping the ball?

In the past couple of seasons, Babcock was in development mode, and liberally sprinkled predictable structural adherence into the lineup (Komarov, Martin, Polak, Hainsey, Marleau, Hyman, Brown) to instill that foundation into the core. Towards the end of last season, we could see the fruits of that labour in the way Marner and Nylander and Matthews played off the puck. I think they could've turned the corner on some of those training wheels a bit earlier, but what's done is done.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 10, 2018, 04:41:32 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 10, 2018, 06:05:22 PM

Babcock: Hyman gets Matthews and Nylander the puck.
Fans: But his assists!
Babcock: Hyman gets Matthews and Nylander the puck.
Mike Kelly: Hyman has very few takeaways, so how effective is he? Look how many Matthews has.
Babcock: Hyman gets Matthews and Nylander the puck.
Fans: We want Johnsson!

Hyman beats an icing and gets Marner and Tavares the puck.
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Fans: oooh...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on October 10, 2018, 06:20:31 PM
The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on October 10, 2018, 09:15:14 PM
The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

I did not know this about forcing the puck to the corner. Neat.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on October 10, 2018, 11:44:55 PM
Centres (duh): Matthews, Tavares, Kadri, Gauthier, Lindholm
Primary wingers: Nylander, Marner
GwotP: Marleau, Hyman, Brown, Johnsson, Kapanen*, Ennis

* Kapanen is arguably a primary, but Babcock wants him to be a GwotP heavy forechecker; with his speed, I'd say that's not a bad call.

So what will happen when Nylander returns? I'd like to try this:

Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Johnsson/Lindholm - Lindholm/Gauthier - Leivo

I'd like to see Babcock give up on the checking/match-up line and just roll trios that have talent enough to score and enough defensive acumen not get burned going the other way.

So gimme:

Hyman - Tavares - Marner (it's working so far, Hyman's speed and ability to disrupt defensemen is all Tavares and Marner seem to need to work)

Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen (Mathews can do a lot on his own, including (this season) get through the NZ and into the OZ; Kapanen has skill and speed enough to do that, plus the wheels to get to and hands to recover the puck; and Marleau's a fine secondary scoring threat and responsible winger)

Johnsson/Lindholm - Kadri - Nylander (LW options, at least when/if Johnsson gets going, are good without the puck and defensively responsible, while both Kadri and Nylander can enter the zone, pass, and shoot -- a good rush combo)

And a 4th line that can do what the one we had in Dallas did in the 3rd period -- keep it a cycle going in the offensive zone and eat time. Between Lindholm (positionally sound), Ennis, Brown (quick, tenacious on the puck, though not great hands), Gauthier and Leivo (big bodies who showed they could sustain pressure), the Leafs have the players to do that.
 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2018, 12:33:26 AM
The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

I did not know this about forcing the puck to the corner. Neat.

Me neither.  Good stuff you mentors!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 11, 2018, 12:35:54 AM
Centres (duh): Matthews, Tavares, Kadri, Gauthier, Lindholm
Primary wingers: Nylander, Marner
GwotP: Marleau, Hyman, Brown, Johnsson, Kapanen*, Ennis

* Kapanen is arguably a primary, but Babcock wants him to be a GwotP heavy forechecker; with his speed, I'd say that's not a bad call.

So what will happen when Nylander returns? I'd like to try this:

Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Johnsson/Lindholm - Lindholm/Gauthier - Leivo

I'd like to see Babcock give up on the checking/match-up line and just roll trios that have talent enough to score and enough defensive acumen not get burned going the other way.

So gimme:

Hyman - Tavares - Marner (it's working so far, Hyman's speed and ability to disrupt defensemen is all Tavares and Marner seem to need to work)

Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen (Mathews can do a lot on his own, including (this season) get through the NZ and into the OZ; Kapanen has skill and speed enough to do that, plus the wheels to get to and hands to recover the puck; and Marleau's a fine secondary scoring threat and responsible winger)

Johnsson/Lindholm - Kadri - Nylander (LW options, at least when/if Johnsson gets going, are good without the puck and defensively responsible, while both Kadri and Nylander can enter the zone, pass, and shoot -- a good rush combo)

And a 4th line that can do what the one we had in Dallas did in the 3rd period -- keep it a cycle going in the offensive zone and eat time. Between Lindholm (positionally sound), Ennis, Brown (quick, tenacious on the puck, though not great hands), Gauthier and Leivo (big bodies who showed they could sustain pressure), the Leafs have the players to do that.

I like this.  My only quibble is I don't know if the Goat Line can do what they did so well last night consistently.  They sure did calm the waters in the 3rd ... it was very nice to see (and feel).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bill_Berg on October 11, 2018, 07:34:53 AM
The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

I did not know this about forcing the puck to the corner. Neat.

Me neither.  Good stuff you mentors!

Yet once you read it, it makes perfect sense and you can see the Leafs doing it well.  And people don't like the dump and chase.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2018, 07:46:23 AM
The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

Bingo! The tricky part to being an F1 is that it is inglorious work, hella hard, and more often than not, resultless.  Like you say, once the defense is able to swing behind the net, your forecheck is essentially nullified thanks to the net being used as a free pick.

Hyman flushing the play towards pickpockets like our 3 kids has been borderline unfair. You could see Matthews' struggle in games 1-3 missing both Nylander (transition through NZ) and Hyman (establishing cycle).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2018, 08:38:32 AM
I'd like to see Babcock give up on the checking/match-up line and just roll trios that have talent enough to score and enough defensive acumen not get burned going the other way.

So gimme:

Hyman - Tavares - Marner (it's working so far, Hyman's speed and ability to disrupt defensemen is all Tavares and Marner seem to need to work)

Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen (Mathews can do a lot on his own, including (this season) get through the NZ and into the OZ; Kapanen has skill and speed enough to do that, plus the wheels to get to and hands to recover the puck; and Marleau's a fine secondary scoring threat and responsible winger)

Johnsson/Lindholm - Kadri - Nylander (LW options, at least when/if Johnsson gets going, are good without the puck and defensively responsible, while both Kadri and Nylander can enter the zone, pass, and shoot -- a good rush combo)

And a 4th line that can do what the one we had in Dallas did in the 3rd period -- keep it a cycle going in the offensive zone and eat time. Between Lindholm (positionally sound), Ennis, Brown (quick, tenacious on the puck, though not great hands), Gauthier and Leivo (big bodies who showed they could sustain pressure), the Leafs have the players to do that.

I'm largely in agreement (roll them 4 lines because we're the scary ones). However, I do wonder about playstyle chemistry (lol).

It is oft-said that great players make the players around them better (Babcock recently said this of Toews, Crosby routinely elevates randos into household name status, the Islanders paid Tavares' linemates as if they were unaware of this effect...); I think there is also a case to be made that there are times when players are too great for their linemates and it hinders the whole line when the styles are too offset by that talent differential.

It works for the likes of Crosby and Tavares because their game and playstyle is largely lunchpail hockey, with dialed up puckhandling and finishing ability. It's easy to play with them if you're already a grinder who can skate and can just get to certain spots regularly.

With Matthews, it's very different. Even with Nylander when he was on the Marlies, there are highlight reels of players missing what Nylander was dishing because it was too fast, too slick, too unexpected. The pair of them gestaltly elevate one another like no one else on the team can, except maybe Marner. Kapanen is a very capable substitute on Matthews' wing (fast, right spots, plenty of skill, Euro-hockey style), but right now you're seeing him through the direct contrast to Tyler Ennis at an extremely small sample size to boot. I think this is a great opportunity for Kapanen to show the coaching staff what the Marlies already know, and that he's the real deal, but I think we're underselling Nylander's effect. Speaking from a 4D salary cap chess perspective, Kapanen is due for a raise and when Nylander's back, he's cost controlled.

Kadri-Nylander hasn't worked in the past that we've seen, although how much of that was Komarov on the opposite flank it's hard to say. I just think that if Nylander is not centering a line, the team is best served with him pseudo-centering Matthews. I like the eventual Johnsson - Kadri - Kapanen approach, as they're all going to get special teams minutes to offset being third fiddle to Matthews/Tavares.

Something extra weird to try if we want Matthews - Kapanen to live on:

Kadri - Tavares - Marner (Mark Hunter Special - shutdown + score a crapload)
Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen (working so far)
Johnsson - Nylander - Hyman (sheltered scoring, with the bonus of putting Hyman on his strong side = 20 goals probably)
Gauthier/Leivo - Lindholm/Gauthier - Brown
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 11, 2018, 09:29:48 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.

He has an interesting suggestion on how to defend against a PP like the Leafs: essentially just give up defending the point/Rielly and play 4-on-4 down low. Makes sense. As good as Rielly is he's clearly the least dangerous offensive weapon out there, both in terms of pure talent and position on the ice. Generally speaking most PKs do keep all their defenders down low, but when the puck goes to the point one guy will usually go out to chase, and that spreads everyone out and opens up lanes.

Another thing I liked about Hitchcock's remarks here was that he called Toronto's powerplay design a 'downhill' strategy, which is very Ender's Game.

Quote
That first power-play unit is at about 50% so far. Put your PK hat on. What are you trying to do besides not take penalties to slow the Toronto power play down?

Hitchcock: The new power play, there are about seven or eight teams that use power plays like this. The term I use is, downhill. This is a downhill power play that is very hard to defend, so you have to make a decision on what you are going to give up.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 11, 2018, 03:01:09 PM
Great analysis Herman. I, as well, would like to gestaltly elevate others.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 12, 2018, 11:21:59 AM
Proud stats:

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: leafsjunkie on October 12, 2018, 11:42:34 AM
Proud stats:


They have the league's top 4 scorer's....
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 12, 2018, 11:46:00 AM
Even though the Leafs have not played any top team yet, still, the team is making headlines in more than many categories:

- excellent scoring
(https://imageshack.com/i/pn2Dqeabp)


- imoroved possession ratings
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmRfYjOmp)


- improved PK
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmtbY9h2p)


- excellent PP
(https://imageshack.com/i/plGSgnvAp)


- fair goaltending
(https://imageshack.com/i/pl5i2lNvp)


Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 12, 2018, 12:15:39 PM
Matthews' powerplay proficiency is papering over some drab results at 5v5. His defensive game is naturally not as insane as his offensive capabilities, and those extended shifts in his own zone are holding back his 5v5 scoring. You'll see this more obviously as we hit this next stretch of playoff caliber teams (and as they get their reps with systems work in) as they hard match Matthews when he has nominal support.

Marleau and Kapanen are good defensive presences generally and hella fast, but neither of them really think the game the way Matthews does, so he's often going solo with the occasional bump around the defense. It's a testament to the skating and strength work Matthews has put in that they've created what they have so far.

Alec @ MLHS puts it best here (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/12/game-5-review-toronto-maple-leafs-5-vs-detroit-red-wings-3/):
Quote
Matthews lines 5v5 possession numbers have been poor in their own right. There have been brilliant moments where theyve looked lethal in transition and created offence in a flash with the two speed demons on Matthews wing in Marleau + Kapanen, but this line absolutely does need Nylander, no matter what the media narratives might suggest based on the simple goals for and win/loss numbers.

Nylanders talent for lugging the puck, weaving through neutral ice and setting up his line in the offensive zone has always been a major driver for his group (thats not Marleau or Kapanens game). Nylanders also a better forechecker than he gets credit for, in addition to his knack for puck thievery when tracking defensively. Matthews and Nylander controlled 52% of the shot attempts and 54% of the 5v5 scoring chances together last year, compared to Matthews 47% and 51.6% numbers apart from Nylander.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 12, 2018, 04:43:39 PM
Your current NHL point leaders:
1st - Auston Matthews - 12 pts
2nd - Morgan Rielly - 12 pts
3rd - John Tavares - 10 pts
4th - Mitch Marner - 10 pts
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 12, 2018, 06:08:31 PM
Wonder if Johnsson can work his way back into the lineup. If he can play like last year he'd be an upgrade over Leivo. Mirtle & Siegel in their latest podcast mentioned he went through a tough time in the summer with personal issues but they didn't elaborate on it. I wonder if that's why Johnsson had looked off in preseason and the first couple of games of the season. Hope it comes together for him.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 12, 2018, 06:41:46 PM
Personal issues can range through so many things, perhaps a Parent or sibling has been diagnosed with something, perhaps a split up from one you love. His mojo seem to be missing this season.  He needs to get his head together as he certainly has the wheels and shooting skills necessary to be a very good player in this league.
Our best thoughts go out to him.
 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on October 13, 2018, 12:06:51 PM
Matthews' powerplay proficiency is papering over some drab results at 5v5. His defensive game is naturally not as insane as his offensive capabilities, and those extended shifts in his own zone are holding back his 5v5 scoring. You'll see this more obviously as we hit this next stretch of playoff caliber teams (and as they get their reps with systems work in) as they hard match Matthews when he has nominal support.

Marleau and Kapanen are good defensive presences generally and hella fast, but neither of them really think the game the way Matthews does, so he's often going solo with the occasional bump around the defense. It's a testament to the skating and strength work Matthews has put in that they've created what they have so far.

Alec @ MLHS puts it best here (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/12/game-5-review-toronto-maple-leafs-5-vs-detroit-red-wings-3/):
Quote
Matthews lines 5v5 possession numbers have been poor in their own right. There have been brilliant moments where theyve looked lethal in transition and created offence in a flash with the two speed demons on Matthews wing in Marleau + Kapanen, but this line absolutely does need Nylander, no matter what the media narratives might suggest based on the simple goals for and win/loss numbers.

Nylanders talent for lugging the puck, weaving through neutral ice and setting up his line in the offensive zone has always been a major driver for his group (thats not Marleau or Kapanens game). Nylanders also a better forechecker than he gets credit for, in addition to his knack for puck thievery when tracking defensively. Matthews and Nylander controlled 52% of the shot attempts and 54% of the 5v5 scoring chances together last year, compared to Matthews 47% and 51.6% numbers apart from Nylander.

I think it would be nice to get Kadri on Matthews left wing to improve his lines transition game and get Kadri more ice time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 13, 2018, 12:58:33 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 13, 2018, 01:09:25 PM
I think it would be nice to get Kadri on Matthews left wing to improve his lines transition game and get Kadri more ice time.

That's a very fun option for those games where we're chasing the score and we're down to two lines. Kadri's already being used that way for the occasional post-PK shift when Tavares and Marner are closing out the final seconds.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 15, 2018, 09:47:04 AM
I was going to do this big post about how the Leafs could start maybe helping out on the goals against (it's improving already), but Gus went and talked about it on TSN1200 already, so here.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/14/gus-katsaros-discuss-toronto-maple-leafs-defensive-structure-forechecking-scheme-on-tsn1200/

Quote
Gus on how he apportions responsibility for the defensive issues between the perceived personnel weakness on defense particularly the right side and the overall team structure as a five-man unit:

The first object is not really about the defense or the defensive side the right or the left. The forwards just arent good enough [defensively]. They dont properly support. They dont put themselves in positions to help their defensemen with support. They dont do the things to help the team get back the puck. We can kind of harp on the hole on the right side and there is and the defense is not necessarily Stanley Cup calibre it probably isnt but on the whole, there is a disconnect between the forwards and the defense that is causing a lot of the weakness that is appearing in the defensive zone.

It is one thing to say that players can backcheck and easily provide support in that regard, but the Leafs dont do that very well. It is still stemming from last year and it still hasnt improved. The Leafs still have to do something to be able to be more in sync between the blue liners and the forwards. You could put any player, it seems, on the Leafs right now and theyd still perform just as well.

Scoring goals is exciting and they have every opportunity to be able to generate lots of scoring chances on almost every shift, but generating a scoring chance to the detriment of not playing proper defensively and not getting pucks back in the early season, that is fine. You can get away with it. There is a lot of leeway presented. But the things that Boston exposed last year the defensive elements that they still didnt work on by the time the playoffs hit are still not addressed today.

That stems from the disconnect between the forwards and the defense. That has to be addressed. If it isnt addressed, the Leafs could have a fantastic regular season, but when it comes to the playoffs and things start to tighten up, you might have the ability to score from 1-2-3-4 lines, but if you dont have the puck, your skill doesnt mean very much. The reality is the Leafs need to really tighten up and do something to sync up their forwards and their defense.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on October 15, 2018, 10:13:44 AM

LOL.  ;D

Good gosh.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 15, 2018, 01:38:36 PM
We have the NHL's top-3 superstar just entering his prime and arguably three in the top-15. Leafs have never had that post-1967. People say hysteria. After years of desolation I think we're entitled to a little :D
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 15, 2018, 07:19:14 PM
We have the NHL's top-3 superstar just entering his prime and arguably three in the top-15. Leafs have never had that post-1967. People say hysteria. After years of desolation I think we're entitled to a little :D


Absolutely!  :D :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 16, 2018, 01:31:07 PM
Leafs having a bit of fun (at the expense of Gardiner and his wallet):

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 16, 2018, 04:04:37 PM
I want to see that heli-celly in game.

Edit:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-skate-ruled-auston-matthews-vs-jake-gardiner-bet/

Apparently, this celebration was Matthews mocking Gardiner for the thing that he does with his stick to celebrate stopping an attack. This is so cute.

Quote
MATTHEWS: Jake just never stops talking about how the forwards should score on every 2-on-1 and how easy it is how were always trying to make the extra pass and the D do a good job of taking it away. So, we let him be the forward today, and he can see how easy it is for himself.

McADAM: I dont know what was going on. I heard there was something about money going to charity. They just said, Stop the puck. Good luck!

Also a really attractive quality in Babcock's eyes is when players treat making defensive stops as goals. Gardiner should have picked Dermott or Rielly to partner with instead.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on October 16, 2018, 06:41:46 PM
I want to see that heli-celly in game.

Edit:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-skate-ruled-auston-matthews-vs-jake-gardiner-bet/

Apparently, this celebration was Matthews mocking Gardiner for the thing that he does with his stick to celebrate stopping an attack. This is so cute.

Quote
MATTHEWS: Jake just never stops talking about how the forwards should score on every 2-on-1 and how easy it is how were always trying to make the extra pass and the D do a good job of taking it away. So, we let him be the forward today, and he can see how easy it is for himself.

McADAM: I dont know what was going on. I heard there was something about money going to charity. They just said, Stop the puck. Good luck!

Also a really attractive quality in Babcock's eyes is when players treat making defensive stops as goals. Gardiner should have picked Dermott or Rielly to partner with instead.

If they would of scored I would of went upstairs for a review. Zaitsev was 2 feet offside.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on October 17, 2018, 02:23:31 PM
I know! That helli-celly was awesome. And he ended sheathing it ;D
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 17, 2018, 02:53:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmHzOIRMFr4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmHzOIRMFr4)

Here's the whole video of the above..Pretty impressive lol..
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on October 19, 2018, 02:46:18 PM
Just because early-in-the-season-silly-stats are fun:

The entire Arizona Coyotes roster has 19 points so far this season.
Auston Matthews has 16.

But, before last night, the entire Coyotes roster had a total of 9 points.
The Leafs have 4 players with 10 or more.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on October 19, 2018, 03:34:21 PM

 And going into last night they had had not scored at even strength.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 21, 2018, 01:45:11 PM

*sobs

Unless...

Gardiner-Rielly
Dermott-Holl
Marincin-Ozhiganov
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 21, 2018, 04:03:27 PM

*sobs

Practice pairings 3 days before a game are pretty much useless. But Dermott wasn't great last night, neither was Oz. Like I said in the GDT, I wouldn't be surprised if both sat a game for Marincin and Holl.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on October 21, 2018, 05:14:09 PM
Just because early-in-the-season-silly-stats are fun:

The entire Arizona Coyotes roster has 19 points so far this season.
Auston Matthews has 16.

But, before last night, the entire Coyotes roster had a total of 9 points.
The Leafs have 4 players with 10 or more.
So trade Nylander to Arizona?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 23, 2018, 11:05:51 AM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 23, 2018, 11:08:46 AM

Dermott fans can calm down.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 23, 2018, 11:21:40 AM

That's creepy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 23, 2018, 11:52:48 AM

That's creepy.
I would do that job if it got me on the ice with Leafs. Wouldn't need to pull that creepy thing around.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Rob on October 23, 2018, 12:07:29 PM
I thought they got rid of Polak?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on October 23, 2018, 12:50:48 PM

So unrealistic! No one slides sideways on their skates like that. Not even the great Babe Pratt!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2018, 09:19:00 AM
Garret Sparks seems to have taken over Connor Carrick's role of "player who absolutely loves talking to the media". Here's him with Sportsnet's Luke Fox on the new formfitting chest protectors that the league put in this season: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-garret-sparks-calls-better-chest-protectors/
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Rob on October 24, 2018, 09:29:16 AM
Garret Sparks seems to have taken over Connor Carrick's role of "player who absolutely loves talking to the media". Here's him with Sportsnet's Luke Fox on the new formfitting chest protectors that the league put in this season: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-garret-sparks-calls-better-chest-protectors/

Sparks sounds like a crazy person. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2018, 09:36:30 AM
Garret Sparks seems to have taken over Connor Carrick's role of "player who absolutely loves talking to the media". Here's him with Sportsnet's Luke Fox on the new formfitting chest protectors that the league put in this season: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-garret-sparks-calls-better-chest-protectors/

Sparks sounds like a crazy person. 

Well he is a goalie.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 24, 2018, 04:30:00 PM
Garret Sparks seems to have taken over Connor Carrick's role of "player who absolutely loves talking to the media". Here's him with Sportsnet's Luke Fox on the new formfitting chest protectors that the league put in this season: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-garret-sparks-calls-better-chest-protectors/

Certainly explains the pre-season and first game jitters.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 24, 2018, 05:19:42 PM
Garret Sparks seems to have taken over Connor Carrick's role of "player who absolutely loves talking to the media". Here's him with Sportsnet's Luke Fox on the new formfitting chest protectors that the league put in this season: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-garret-sparks-calls-better-chest-protectors/

Certainly explains the pre-season and first game jitters.

A multi-billion dollar league is implementing untested changes to safety equipment for the most vulnerable players on the ice.  If Sparks assertions are true, this is bananas.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 24, 2018, 05:25:33 PM
A multi-billion dollar league is implementing untested changes to safety equipment for the most vulnerable players on the ice.  If Sparks assertions are true, this is bananas.

Lots of goalies have spoken out about this. The lack of time they gave goalies/equipment manufacturers to adjust to this is nuts.

This is the ESPN article that the Sportsnet one mentioned where other goalies talk about the same issues: http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/25025926/goaltenders-say-reduction-size-chest-protectors-leading-more-pain

Quote
"I'm getting bruised like crazy on my arms. I think that's the biggest issue, they take away padding in the arms. It seems like every shot that you take that's not clean on your blocker or in your glove, it's leaving a mark," Philadelphia Flyers goalie Brian Elliott told the Courier Post earlier this season. "They wanted more 'formfitting,' but when you have more formfitting there's no give. There's no air between you and your pads, so the puck is hitting your pad and at the same time it's hitting your bones and your flesh so there's no cushion."

The results have been painful. "I've never had the bruises on my arms [before], but now it feels like every other shot goes there. If it goes there, it's going to be sore," Columbus Blue Jackets goalie Sergei Bobrovsky told the Columbus Dispatch. "You start to be afraid of pucks, actually, especially in the practices. You get bruises in [the arms]. It's terrible."
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on October 24, 2018, 05:37:20 PM
A multi-billion dollar league is implementing untested changes to safety equipment for the most vulnerable players on the ice.  If Sparks assertions are true, this is bananas.

Lots of goalies have spoken out about this. The lack of time they gave goalies/equipment manufacturers to adjust to this is nuts.

This is the ESPN article that the Sportsnet one mentioned where other goalies talk about the same issues: http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/25025926/goaltenders-say-reduction-size-chest-protectors-leading-more-pain

Quote
"I'm getting bruised like crazy on my arms. I think that's the biggest issue, they take away padding in the arms. It seems like every shot that you take that's not clean on your blocker or in your glove, it's leaving a mark," Philadelphia Flyers goalie Brian Elliott told the Courier Post earlier this season. "They wanted more 'formfitting,' but when you have more formfitting there's no give. There's no air between you and your pads, so the puck is hitting your pad and at the same time it's hitting your bones and your flesh so there's no cushion."

The results have been painful. "I've never had the bruises on my arms [before], but now it feels like every other shot goes there. If it goes there, it's going to be sore," Columbus Blue Jackets goalie Sergei Bobrovsky told the Columbus Dispatch. "You start to be afraid of pucks, actually, especially in the practices. You get bruises in [the arms]. It's terrible."

Unbelievable...could it be just push-back from the "goalie union", because I'm having trouble believing that this is really a thing...I can't believe that if goalies are being bruised/injured, that GM's around the league wouldn't be screaming at the league right now.  You lose you starter to a broken arm/shoulder, and he's done for months!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 25, 2018, 01:41:18 PM
The Leafs have really tightened up their exit structure the past few games, including the two boring garbage games against Pittsburgh and St. Louis.


I really like what Babcock points out in this answer:
Quote
Asked specifically about the teams breakout, he refused to concede its contribution to the end struggles.

That could be part of it. What came first? The chicken or the egg? So does it start in the offensive zone when you play heavy and you wear them out, and then you dont even have to get back in your zone, or does it start on faceoffs? It starts in a lot of different spots. You obviously want to come out clean every time but if theyre on top of your D and your Ds face are in the glass, those D arent going to make a lot of plays thats just the reality of it, he said.

Unless we can rewatch the game tape over and over, fans are going to gravitate towards the result. So when the D ices the puck, they eat the vitriol because we have the overhead view that shows the options and what the obvious solutions are. But at ice level, when youre sucking wind after having to hunt down a dump in and getting smushed from behind for your troubles, what can still be seen at that level? Why was the puck turned over to begin with?

For all the accusations of Babcock being a dinosaur, I like that his focus is on the zones that have an opportunity to prevent these things from happening in the first place.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 26, 2018, 11:11:26 AM

I don't care, I'll say it: I kinda wanted Hainsey to miss a week or two with an injury just so Babs would be forced to see how things would go without him.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 26, 2018, 11:14:41 AM

I don't care, I'll say it: I kinda wanted Hainsey to miss a week or two with an injury just so Babs would be forced to see how things would go without him.

Are you not in position to sort of make that happen? Can you talk to Gritty?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 26, 2018, 11:50:22 AM

I don't care, I'll say it: I kinda wanted Hainsey to miss a week or two with an injury just so Babs would be forced to see how things would go without him.
I wanted to see if it was possible that the world would continue to turn without him.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 26, 2018, 12:03:07 PM

HOOK IT INTO MY VEINS
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 26, 2018, 12:06:45 PM

HOOK IT INTO MY VEINS

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Johnsson-Tavares-Kapanen
Marleau-Kadri-Marner

Just like we wrote it up in May.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 26, 2018, 04:24:54 PM

HOOK IT INTO MY VEINS

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Johnsson-Tavares-Kapanen
Marleau-Kadri-Marner

Just like we wrote it up in May.
The only way that happens is if Marner, Tavares goes south and they stop producing. I can def see Marleau moving back with Kadri tho and Kappy moving to the other side when Willy signs.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 27, 2018, 05:50:30 PM
An article on Kadri, tough assignments and all:

Just a teaser:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/600x400q90/922/3WlsUi.png)




Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 28, 2018, 07:10:44 AM

HOOK IT INTO MY VEINS

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Johnsson-Tavares-Kapanen
Marleau-Kadri-Marner

Just like we wrote it up in May.

Its (partially and temporarily) happening!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 28, 2018, 11:45:42 AM
I certainly didn't want an injury to any of our players, but I'm so glad for the opportunity to have a legit scoring threat on Kadri's line. In the interim, I'd love to see:

Hyman-Tavaras-Kapanen
Marleau-Kadri-Marner
Johnsson/Ennis-Lindholm-Brown
Ennis/Johnsson-Gauthier-Leivo

edit: switched Kapi/Brown
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on October 28, 2018, 12:01:39 PM
Now would be a nice time to get Nylander back...

Marleau - Kadri - Marner
Hyman - Tavares - Kapanen
Johnsson/Ennis/Leivo/Lindholm - Nylander - Brown
[whoever] - Gauthier - [whoever]
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 28, 2018, 12:47:12 PM

SHoUlD tOroNtO TRadE kaDri?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 28, 2018, 02:51:26 PM

Dubas just needs to trade Hainsey already. Maybe while Babcock is sleeping or something.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on October 28, 2018, 03:35:00 PM

SHoUlD tOroNtO TRadE kaDri?

Babcock clearly listening to me.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on October 28, 2018, 04:14:24 PM

Dubas just needs to trade Hainsey already. Maybe while Babcock is sleeping or something.

His ability to turn the puck over uncontested is amazing
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 28, 2018, 06:08:05 PM

Dubas just needs to trade Hainsey already. Maybe while Babcock is sleeping or something.

His ability to turn the puck over uncontested is amazing
Dermott didn't play well in his last outing but I def think he's a better option then Hainsey who looked terrible on the 1st goal last night. What he was doing leaving the back door guy open in beyond me.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 31, 2018, 09:53:02 AM
Invalid Tweet ID
Spooky.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 31, 2018, 10:13:01 AM
Invalid Tweet ID
Spooky.

I was wondering after one game (and after several others) where Zaitsev made a Zaitsev pass, that this might just be someone who needs corrective lenses (or laser surgery). It could just be astigmatism or something innocuous that causes him to miss his mark so often.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 31, 2018, 10:17:01 AM
I was wondering after one game (and after several others) where Zaitsev made a Zaitsev pass, that this might just be someone who needs corrective lenses (or laser surgery). It could just be astigmatism or something innocuous that causes him to miss his mark so often.

I'd be pretty surprised if this wasn't something the Leafs tested during their medical exams.

edit: These guys (http://kingswayeyecare.com/team/) perform "annual Vision Screenings for the Toronto Maple Leafs during pre season Training Camp since 2006. Also provides comprehensive eye examinations for executives of the Toronto Maple Leafs and its hockey players".
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 31, 2018, 10:53:18 AM
Invalid Tweet ID
Spooky.

That seems like a lot.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on October 31, 2018, 11:08:44 AM
Invalid Tweet ID
Spooky.

I was wondering after one game (and after several others) where Zaitsev made a Zaitsev pass, that this might just be someone who needs corrective lenses (or laser surgery). It could just be astigmatism or something innocuous that causes him to miss his mark so often.
I use to think that Phaneuf needed glasses, constantly being so out of position. I wondered if literally couldn't see his opponents. Turns out he just sucks.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 31, 2018, 11:36:08 AM

*Hyman on the PP alert*

I actually don't think this is a terrible idea, although PP2 ain't scoring anyway so what's the point.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 31, 2018, 11:42:52 AM
Babcock on Monday:


Guess he lost his way *shrugs*
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 31, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
I was wondering after one game (and after several others) where Zaitsev made a Zaitsev pass, that this might just be someone who needs corrective lenses (or laser surgery). It could just be astigmatism or something innocuous that causes him to miss his mark so often.

I'd be pretty surprised if this wasn't something the Leafs tested during their medical exams.

edit: These guys (http://kingswayeyecare.com/team/) perform "annual Vision Screenings for the Toronto Maple Leafs during pre season Training Camp since 2006. Also provides comprehensive eye examinations for executives of the Toronto Maple Leafs and its hockey players".

Oh yeah, physicals are a thing.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on October 31, 2018, 11:58:37 AM

*Hyman on the PP alert*

I actually don't think this is a terrible idea, although PP2 ain't scoring anyway so what's the point.

Anyone remember those heady days, so long ago now, when our PP was unstoppable and our forward depth the toast of 5 continents?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: RedLeaf on October 31, 2018, 12:52:56 PM

*Hyman on the PP alert*

I actually don't think this is a terrible idea, although PP2 ain't scoring anyway so what's the point.

Anyone remember those heady days, so long ago now, when our PP was unstoppable and our forward depth the toast of 5 continents?

Wait. How many Leafs are injured? Just 1??
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 31, 2018, 03:55:51 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on October 31, 2018, 04:16:01 PM

HAHHAHAA... Auston's scream there is gonna get some serious airplay.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 31, 2018, 04:42:02 PM

HAHHAHAA... Auston's scream there is gonna get some serious airplay.
If it's real...On a positive note, his arm moved pretty fast lol
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on October 31, 2018, 04:59:28 PM

What a world of difference the increase in skating proficiency has made in Gauthier's game.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on October 31, 2018, 05:39:52 PM

What a world of difference the increase in skating proficiency has made in Gauthier's game.

Small sample size alert.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on October 31, 2018, 07:33:43 PM

What a world of difference the increase in skating proficiency has made in Gauthier's game.

Small sample size alert.
When is a Goat going to get a break around here? ;)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on October 31, 2018, 11:32:23 PM
When the flip do the leafs play again? This schedule is flipping ridiculous.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 31, 2018, 11:43:45 PM

What a world of difference the increase in skating proficiency has made in Gauthier's game.

I have no power to make this happen, but it is my wish that on the very rare occasion that Gauthier should score in Toronto, the fans all start bleating like goats.

If I were dying, it would be my Make-A-Wish.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2018, 10:34:03 AM
I have no power to make this happen, but it is my wish that on the very rare occasion that Gauthier should score in Toronto, the fans all start bleating like goats.

If I were dying, it would be my Make-A-Wish.

I knew you were trouble when you walked in.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2018, 11:39:18 AM

What a world of difference the increase in skating proficiency has made in Gauthier's game.

Small sample size alert.

Similar to the passing stats, there are so many shot attempts within a quarter of a season that the data is already fairly normalized, barring a drastic change in deployment and usage.

Right now, Gauthier is starting most of his shifts in his own zone and ending most of his shifts in the opponents' zone and nobody getting many shots through, let alone scoring.

For a 4th line, this is an acceptable level of effectiveness. Adding Engvall at some point might also tip the balance towards good. As much as I'd like overmatch scoring to come from the 4th line, if they're only afforded 10ish minutes, I'm okay with them costing pennies and nullifying all hockey-related activities for their ice time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 01, 2018, 12:11:57 PM
Similar to the passing stats, there are so many shot attempts within a quarter of a season that the data is already fairly normalized, barring a drastic change in deployment and usage.

Well, we're not quite yet at the quarter mark of the season, are we?

Also, in this case sample size doesn't just mean games played. We also have to realize that we're dealing with a pretty small amount of total shot attempts in Gauthier's stats because of his low minutes. A 57% CF sounds amazing, sure. But if you look at the raw numbers you'll find that on average the shot attempts while he's on the ice are only about 8-6 per game in Toronto's favour. I mean that's nice and all but a 57% CF for a 15-minute a night player is a completely different thing than a 57% CF for a 8-minute a night player.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2018, 12:20:51 PM
This Q&A is a worthwhile read if you're interested in analytics but not really into the mathy side of things.

The Leafs are the only team to publicize that they've used Clear Sight's shot analytics data.

You might remember Steve Valiquette's name from the Royal Road article (http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=3745.msg256519#msg256519) I've posted here previously.

He talks about how his post-retirement career takes the lessons he learned as a backup goaltender to cut through the noise of the NHL's public stats.

Quote
What Ive really come to understand from doing this project is that we cant live by whats counted for as shots on goal in an official capacity. The only way you can be 100 percent accurate is if you have two sets of eyes on every game live on the game and then another person on the computer reconciling whats coming in. We have first, second and third looks at every chance. Our numbers will never be the same as the NHLs. And were OK with that because were doing the due diligence that needs to be done. This affects shooting percentages, save percentages, things that are coming into play when contracts are being discussed.

Distance from the net, plus deflections on the ice dont go in as frequently as ones off the ice. It wasnt really that hard of a save. When you look at our designations, your goalie can never let a red one in. You need saves on the yellow ones and you can live with goals on the green ones because youre only supposed to give up maybe six a night. And one of every three of the high-percentage shots goes in every night. One of three, one of three breakaways, odd-man rushes, broken plays, it always comes back to that range.

That last part might give an indication as to why the Leafs have overused the stretch pass play. When it works, it's a 27-30% chance at a goal. When it doesn't, it's the puck in a reset position. What they need to do more is use a larger variety of plays to take advantage of a defense that is defending the stretch pass (a la football runs vs throws).

He also addresses my least favourite play of all:
Forward down low curls up and feeds a pass low to high for a defenseman to reset the cycle, but the defenseman fires a screen-free slapper at the goalie. This is Roman Polak and Ron Hainsey in a nutshell.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 01, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
Similar to the passing stats, there are so many shot attempts within a quarter of a season that the data is already fairly normalized, barring a drastic change in deployment and usage.

Well, we're not quite yet at the quarter mark of the season, are we?

Also, in this case sample size doesn't just mean games played. We also have to realize that we're dealing with a pretty small amount of total shot attempts in Gauthier's stats because of his low minutes. A 57% CF sounds amazing, sure. But if you look at the raw numbers you'll find that on average the shot attempts while he's on the ice are only about 8-6 per game in Toronto's favour. I mean that's nice and all but a 57% CF for a 15-minute a night player is a completely different thing than a 57% CF for a 8-minute a night player.

That's very fair to say. The linked Twitter thread posted a video from 2015 and Dubas' take on Gauthier's numbers back then show he was already pretty positive about what Gauthier brings to the table; there's quite a sample size by now. It's definitely worth anybody's time to scroll through that thread's highlights to see some of the reasons why the numbers are shaking out that way.

Babcock said recently that he always expected Gauthier would show better in the NHL rather than the lower leagues. I took that to mean Gauthier plays the way Babcock likes in his non-scorers: structurally obedient, greater coverage than average, super super boring; in the NHL where it is a lot less chaotic, that's going to have an effect. Gauthier can't shoot worth a lick, but he really does know how to position his body, keep his stick on the puck, and cut off passing lanes. Even though hockey is not his one true love, I can see he definitely has hockey smarts to work with (didn't he turn down an Ivy League school? I guess that's sort of not smart).

With the Barb-boost to his skating, his body is now catching up with his mind. With NHL-ish wingers, and NHL-ish structure, Gauthier is starting to be able to assert himself on the ice the way he has with the Marlies. In other words, he's dependable and because scoring is usually an accident for him, he will always be very cap friendly.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 01, 2018, 01:12:53 PM
Barb-boost, lol. Nice.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on November 02, 2018, 01:41:27 PM
Ennis/Lindholm/Brown/Hyman/Marleau/Levio/Gauthier/Johnsson have combined for a whopping 3 even-strength goals and one was into an empty net.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on November 02, 2018, 02:31:22 PM
What about (until the return of Matthews and that Blond kid)

Kapenen-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Kadri-Brown (Leivo)
Hyman-Marleau-Leivo  (Brown)
Lindholm-Goat-Ennis

I mention Marleau at C as he is not keeping up on the wings, perhaps better dishing it and hitting the rebounds.

Gardiner-Rielly (play them 25 a game). The rest rotate and put on spin dry
?????-Zaitzev
Borgman- Oz

Could Hainsey or Zaitzev play the Left side.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 02, 2018, 04:43:26 PM
Unfortunately Marleau isnt going to be able to keep up with the rights of playing centre (a lot more stop and start and engaging attackers), as Babcock discovered last year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 02, 2018, 09:38:17 PM
https://theathletic.com/627400/2018/11/02/how-the-maple-leafs-have-quietly-changed-the-way-they-defend-top-lines/

Confirmation that Babcock/Smith are deploying their top 4 pairs on matchups a bit differently this year: Rielly-Hainsey against heavier (read: slower) top lines, and Gardiner-Zaitsev against skill lines (faster).

Rielly-Hainsey are also getting less of the DZ starts, which has shown up on the CF% for them and the pairing that is taking them instead.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on November 03, 2018, 09:51:27 AM
He also addresses my least favourite play of all:
Forward down low curls up and feeds a pass low to high for a defenseman to reset the cycle, but the defenseman fires a screen-free slapper at the goalie. This is Roman Polak and Ron Hainsey in a nutshell.

Agreed. I see this happening a fair bit with a number of forwards, but especially Kapanen, as he's go so much speed, when he gets the zone and stops, he's got a ton of separation from the chasing player. He throws it back to the point almost as routine, which isn't necessarily a bad play, but a shot from that area just doesn't score goals anymore without pinballing around. When Marner gains the zone, his first instinct is to look at the slot, a trailing forward perhaps, or across the seam for a high danger chance for him, the reversal to the point is a consolation play to simply keep possession.

Another thing that bugs me constantly (tough to get traction I suppose due to his start) is Reilly's instincts with the puck in the O zone. I can't count the number of times he's killed plays by simply floating an unscreened wrist shot into the goalie's chest. I think at some point in his career someone's told him it's never a bad idea to throw the puck at the net, but it's a momentum killer the way he's doing it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 03, 2018, 10:16:36 AM
He also addresses my least favourite play of all:
Forward down low curls up and feeds a pass low to high for a defenseman to reset the cycle, but the defenseman fires a screen-free slapper at the goalie. This is Roman Polak and Ron Hainsey in a nutshell.

Agreed. I see this happening a fair bit with a number of forwards, but especially Kapanen, as he's go so much speed, when he gets the zone and stops, he's got a ton of separation from the chasing player. He throws it back to the point almost as routine, which isn't necessarily a bad play, but a shot from that area just doesn't score goals anymore without pinballing around. When Marner gains the zone, his first instinct is to look at the slot, a trailing forward perhaps, or across the seam for a high danger chance for him, the reversal to the point is a consolation play to simply keep possession.

Another thing that bugs me constantly (tough to get traction I suppose due to his start) is Reilly's instincts with the puck in the O zone. I can't count the number of times he's killed plays by simply floating an unscreened wrist shot into the goalie's chest. I think at some point in his career someone's told him it's never a bad idea to throw the puck at the net, but it's a momentum killer the way he's doing it.

The play back to the defenseman is fine as long as the defenseman uses their brain and doesn't just do a quick slap/snap shot.  Even holding the puck for a second to let traffic get to the net would be fine.  It's just that a guy like Hainsey just default fires the puck away, whether it is in the defensive or offensive zones.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 03, 2018, 11:17:39 AM
He also addresses my least favourite play of all:
Forward down low curls up and feeds a pass low to high for a defenseman to reset the cycle, but the defenseman fires a screen-free slapper at the goalie. This is Roman Polak and Ron Hainsey in a nutshell.

Agreed. I see this happening a fair bit with a number of forwards, but especially Kapanen, as he's go so much speed, when he gets the zone and stops, he's got a ton of separation from the chasing player. He throws it back to the point almost as routine, which isn't necessarily a bad play, but a shot from that area just doesn't score goals anymore without pinballing around. When Marner gains the zone, his first instinct is to look at the slot, a trailing forward perhaps, or across the seam for a high danger chance for him, the reversal to the point is a consolation play to simply keep possession.

Another thing that bugs me constantly (tough to get traction I suppose due to his start) is Reilly's instincts with the puck in the O zone. I can't count the number of times he's killed plays by simply floating an unscreened wrist shot into the goalie's chest. I think at some point in his career someone's told him it's never a bad idea to throw the puck at the net, but it's a momentum killer the way he's doing it.

The play back to the defenseman is fine as long as the defenseman uses their brain and doesn't just do a quick slap/snap shot.  Even holding the puck for a second to let traffic get to the net would be fine.  It's just that a guy like Hainsey just default fires the puck away, whether it is in the defensive or offensive zones.

Yeah there needs to be useful traffic.

Riellys soft floaters are by design and its not actually Riellys problem but the forwards who arent tipping it that leads to the puck-in-the-crest result. The forwards are supposed to converge through the slot as the puck is coming through (moving screens).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 03, 2018, 11:18:00 AM
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Matthews is one of the players that routinely overachieves his expected goals (location-based average SH%).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 03, 2018, 11:33:09 AM
So, no puck luck herman?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 03, 2018, 06:32:53 PM
More goals required, please (from the rest of you, Leafs)...

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 05, 2018, 12:49:20 PM
These are very cool:
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 05, 2018, 08:16:31 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 06, 2018, 08:31:00 AM
Oh great, Gauthier's making me agree with Jeff O'Neill.

Where were these charts when I was passionately defending Philippe Dupuis' play in 2011?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 06, 2018, 12:10:00 PM
Jeff O'Neill makes me laugh. Love his non sugar coated comments.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 10, 2018, 10:53:32 AM
[...]
Quote
What Ive really come to understand from doing this project is that we cant live by whats counted for as shots on goal in an official capacity. The only way you can be 100 percent accurate is if you have two sets of eyes on every game live on the game and then another person on the computer reconciling whats coming in. We have first, second and third looks at every chance. Our numbers will never be the same as the NHLs. And were OK with that because were doing the due diligence that needs to be done. This affects shooting percentages, save percentages, things that are coming into play when contracts are being discussed.

Distance from the net, plus deflections on the ice dont go in as frequently as ones off the ice. It wasnt really that hard of a save. When you look at our designations, your goalie can never let a red one in. You need saves on the yellow ones and you can live with goals on the green ones because youre only supposed to give up maybe six a night. And one of every three of the high-percentage shots goes in every night. One of three, one of three breakaways, odd-man rushes, broken plays, it always comes back to that range.

That last part might give an indication as to why the Leafs have overused the stretch pass play. When it works, it's a 27-30% chance at a goal. When it doesn't, it's the puck in a reset position. What they need to do more is use a larger variety of plays to take advantage of a defense that is defending the stretch pass (a la football runs vs throws).

Good thing I didn't bother looking up more numbers about this.

https://theathletic.com/643939/2018/11/10/tulloch-the-value-of-the-stretch-pass-and-how-the-leafs-can-better-utilize-it/

(https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2018/11/09025828/Screen-Shot-2018-11-09-at-2.58.10-AM.png)

If that's the gamble (and note that a scoring chance off a successful stretch pass is a partial/full breakaway, which has a 27-30% chance of resulting in a goal), then yeah, of course they're going to fire away (oh man, wait 'til you see Liljegren on the Leafs). If a stretch pass completes, it's either a rush chance, or an opportunity to set up on a panicking defense. If it misses, it's either an icing, or a turnover in the other zone with all players on top of the puck.

What we've seen lately is better forward support recognizing when the stretch play is not the right option and swinging lower (F3 below the blue), and generally more skill with the puck up and down the lineup to facilitate holding and waiting a little bit longer.

The guys they're firing up the ice are the diggers who aren't really handlers (Hyman, Brown) or speedsters (Kapanen, Ennis). If you can spring Kapanen for 3 breakaways a game, he's going to average out just a hair under a goal per game if he only had average skill (he has more than that).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 10, 2018, 11:25:30 AM
Babcock's rationale:

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 10, 2018, 09:12:37 PM

Sgonna be beautiful.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 10, 2018, 10:16:45 PM

Sgonna be beautiful.

So anybody picturing TML (Timothy Mattias Liljegren) getting called up to TML this season?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 10, 2018, 10:23:19 PM
So anybody picturing TML (Timothy Mattias Liljegren) getting called up to TML this season?

Anything's possible but I wouldn't count on it. Still seeing comments that his defensive game needs work. A full season getting top pairing minutes on the Marlies is probably the best plan.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 12, 2018, 03:59:44 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 14, 2018, 01:30:23 PM
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Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 17, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
I think the Leafs might actually be good?

1st in the league in points with 28
1st in the league in goals with 70
7th in the league in goals against with 51
1st in the league in goal differential at +19
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 17, 2018, 10:28:51 AM
I think the Leafs might actually be good?

1st in the league in points with 28
1st in the league in goals with 70
7th in the league in goals against with 51
1st in the league in goal differential at +19

Theyve been really solid starting from that Dallas PDO loss at the beginning of the month, maybe even the Winnipeg set barring those blips to Pittsburgh and Calgary. The big difference has been the team effort in puck pursuit and sort outs on retrieval.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on November 17, 2018, 10:31:58 AM
I think the Leafs might actually be good?

1st in the league in points with 28
1st in the league in goals with 70
7th in the league in goals against with 51
1st in the league in goal differential at +19

It's even more impressive when you consider they've done it all without Nylander, and a good chunk without Matthews.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on November 17, 2018, 11:32:23 AM
I still have concerns that certain teams such as Boston will be able to completely shut the Leafs offense down.  Also big physical teams like Washington give me pause.  Isn't that when Auston Matthews got hurt?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 17, 2018, 12:22:17 PM
I still have concerns that certain teams such as Boston will be able to completely shut the Leafs offense down.  Also big physical teams like Washington give me pause.  Isn't that when Auston Matthews got hurt?

Winnipeg
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 17, 2018, 04:38:08 PM
L O C K D O W N

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on November 17, 2018, 04:51:40 PM
L O C K D O W N

No. Just no.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on November 17, 2018, 07:21:43 PM
The Leafs just got knocked out of first place in the league by Tampa Bay.  We play them on Thursday, December 13th, in Tampa.  I can't wait.  This is a huge measuring stick game for the team, and a likely playoff opponent also.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: caveman on November 17, 2018, 07:27:08 PM
L O C K D O W N

No. Just no.

Haha !
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on November 17, 2018, 07:31:05 PM
L O C K D O W N

No. Just no.

Haha !
Is Zanzibar referring to Luke Schenn?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 18, 2018, 09:26:35 AM
The Leafs just got knocked out of first place in the league by Tampa Bay.  We play them on Thursday, December 13th, in Tampa.  I can't wait.  This is a huge measuring stick game for the team, and a likely playoff opponent also.
Could we have our entire lineup for that game finally?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on November 18, 2018, 11:12:24 AM
The dream will never die.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 18, 2018, 01:53:38 PM
The dream will never die.

Lockdown just never really stuck like we all totally thought it would because it just rolled off the tongue and was super clever.

Didn't we have some other bad ones back in those days?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 18, 2018, 03:32:04 PM
The dream will never die.
Dream(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/aa46044b1365305c0700381cab70810e.jpg)


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/0976e4ad44762d082d5cc7653968efdc.jpg)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 18, 2018, 04:44:58 PM
The dream will never die.
What is dead may never die
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 19, 2018, 11:21:35 AM

I know he doesn't mean it this way, but those are shots fired.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 19, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
I mean when Mathews (and hopefully Nylander) get back, that'll bump 2 players off this roster, two of Goat, Leivo, Ennis, that's pretty good
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 19, 2018, 10:25:36 PM
I mean when Mathews (and hopefully Nylander) get back, that'll bump 2 players off this roster, two of Goat, Leivo, Ennis, that's pretty good

A nice problem to have for sure.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AtomicMapleLeaf on November 19, 2018, 11:32:53 PM
I'm sure others have looked at this, but all-time TML stats....

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=1&reportType=season&seasonFrom=19171918&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=team.10&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists (http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=1&reportType=season&seasonFrom=19171918&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=team.10&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists)

I love how it is sortable.

Zach is 2 shorties away from tying Sittler!!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AtomicMapleLeaf on November 26, 2018, 02:46:23 PM
Just noticed that we are the only to not to have a "loser" point.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on November 26, 2018, 02:54:06 PM
Just noticed that we are the only to not to have a "loser" point.

That's cause we're not losers, we're winners.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AtomicMapleLeaf on November 26, 2018, 05:50:02 PM
Just noticed that we are the only to not to have a "loser" point.

That's cause we're not losers, we're winners.

I like the way you think
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 27, 2018, 06:18:40 PM
Was reading Friedman's 31 thoughts, and suggestion was that St. Louis was probably looking at changes...Parayko please...but anyways...Want to feel old?  Steen was traded to the Blues in 08-09 at the 20 game mark.

That's 10 years ago.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 27, 2018, 09:51:34 PM
Was reading Friedman's 31 thoughts, and suggestion was that St. Louis was probably looking at changes...Parayko please...but anyways...Want to feel old?  Steen was traded to the Blues in 08-09 at the 20 game mark.

That's 10 years ago.
Horrible trade. Steen and Cola for Stempniak
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 27, 2018, 11:19:27 PM
Was reading Friedman's 31 thoughts, and suggestion was that St. Louis was probably looking at changes...Parayko please...but anyways...Want to feel old?  Steen was traded to the Blues in 08-09 at the 20 game mark.

That's 10 years ago.
Horrible trade. Steen and Cola for Stempniak
That was an indefensible trade. Why the hell did we ever trade Steen? I never figured that out.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Kaberle15 on November 28, 2018, 06:53:27 AM
Was reading Friedman's 31 thoughts, and suggestion was that St. Louis was probably looking at changes...Parayko please...but anyways...Want to feel old?  Steen was traded to the Blues in 08-09 at the 20 game mark.

That's 10 years ago.

In one of the worse trades the Leafs made.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on November 28, 2018, 08:41:20 AM
Was reading Friedman's 31 thoughts, and suggestion was that St. Louis was probably looking at changes...Parayko please...but anyways...Want to feel old?  Steen was traded to the Blues in 08-09 at the 20 game mark.

That's 10 years ago.
Horrible trade. Steen and Cola for Stempniak
That was an indefensible trade. Why the hell did we ever trade Steen? I never figured that out.

Coach didnt like him and the interim GM was awful.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on November 28, 2018, 08:45:12 AM
Was reading Friedman's 31 thoughts, and suggestion was that St. Louis was probably looking at changes...Parayko please...but anyways...Want to feel old?  Steen was traded to the Blues in 08-09 at the 20 game mark.

That's 10 years ago.
Horrible trade. Steen and Cola for Stempniak
That was an indefensible trade. Why the hell did we ever trade Steen? I never figured that out.

Coach didnt like him and the interim GM was awful.
Paul Maurice era?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on November 28, 2018, 08:45:36 AM
Coach didnt like him and the interim GM was awful.

Yup. Maurice played him a lot in the top-6 and with Sundin in an offensive role and he put up a decent amount of points. Sundin leaves, Wilson comes in and starts playing Steen in a checking role and he can't produce any points, GM wildly overreacts to a bad 20 games.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 28, 2018, 08:50:00 AM
Which was crazy, because I thought he was decent in the checking role.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on November 28, 2018, 09:57:28 AM

It was a bad trade but I think it's seriously overwriting certain elements of the past to suggest it was just the result of a bad GM making a decision that the fanbase universally disliked. Steen was 24, turning 25, and had sort of stalled in his development as a top line guy. Stempniak was only a year older and coming off a pretty successful season.

I didn't like the trade at the time, back then I reflexively didn't like anything the Leafs did if it didn't point them towards a full rebuild, but there were a lot of people around here who saw those Leafs as a potential playoff team and liked the move.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on November 28, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
I might be misremembering, but I recall it being almost universally panned among fans. I know for me that including both Steen and Colaiacovo was something I couldn't understand, despite C's injury history.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on November 28, 2018, 11:25:57 AM
I might be misremembering, but I recall it being almost universally panned among fans. I know for me that including both Steen and Colaiacovo was something I couldn't understand, despite C's injury history.

There were a lot of people willing to give Wilson quite a bit of rope to remake the team as he saw fit and with new guys like Grabovski and Kulemin around and Tlusty having success in the AHL I don't think it was seen as a whole sale abandoning of the youth movement. I remember there being a sort of "Well, the Wellwood/Steen/Stajan thing has failed, let's move on" sort of attitude.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 29, 2018, 12:17:28 PM

Sounds about right. Sheltered usage at home (yay goals).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on November 30, 2018, 06:08:52 PM
Next time Justin Holl plays/scores a goal...

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Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on November 30, 2018, 07:09:10 PM
I honestly forgot that Holl was on the roster.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 02, 2018, 08:49:59 AM

I know people are probably not that into talking about another contract negotiation but last night they were talking about the Leafs apparently having some optimism that Gardiner could get re-signed. Apparently the thinking is that a fairly small raise but with a fair chunk of upfront money and term might be a more workable solution than previously thought. They also talked about bribing a team to take Marleau as a pretty workable outcome. Given those two things I actually think the Leafs can do next year pretty well.

It would be tight but this roster would work

Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Grundstrom-Kadri-Kapanen
Marchment-Gauthier-Brown
Brooks

Rielly-Zaitsev
Dermott-Liljegren
Gardiner-Oz
Holl

Andersen
Fishbulb

A couple of notes:

- I have Marner at 9.5 here, Matthews at 12, Gardiner at 5, Kapanen at 3.5, Johnsson at 2, Oz at 1.5 and Sparks at 900k. I think most of those are pretty reasonable assuming Kapanen and Johnsson are short term deals

- I also have a 82 million cap

- I traded Marleau to San Jose with a 2020 2nd for a 2019 5th.

- The team is right up against it but if the team was looking to save a million here or there I think it would be around this time to start talking about whether we want to pay Connor Brown 2 million to be the 4th line RW.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 08:57:58 AM

I know people are probably not that into talking about another contract negotiation but last night they were talking about the Leafs apparently having some optimism that Gardiner could get re-signed. Apparently the thinking is that a fairly small raise but with a fair chunk of upfront money and term might be a more workable solution than previously thought. They also talked about bribing a team to take Marleau as a pretty workable outcome. Given those two things I actually think the Leafs can do next year pretty well.

It would be tight but this roster would work

Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Grundstrom-Kadri-Kapanen
Marchment-Gauthier-Brown
Brooks

Rielly-Zaitsev
Dermott-Liljegren
Gardiner-Oz
Holl

Andersen
Fishbulb

A couple of notes:

- I have Marner at 9.5 here, Matthews at 12, Gardiner at 5, Kapanen at 3.5, Johnsson at 2, Oz at 1.5 and Sparks at 900k. I think most of those are pretty reasonable assuming Kapanen and Johnsson are short term deals

- I also have a 82 million cap

- I traded Marleau to San Jose with a 2020 2nd for a 2019 5th.

- The team is right up against it but if the team was looking to save a million here or there I think it would be around this time to start talking about whether we want to pay Connor Brown 2 million to be the 4th line RW.

Marleau has to be willing to leave though, not sure if he wants to.  Also he's very popular with Matthews and Marner, so you don't want to cause some sort of strife in the room.  I mean everyone is professional and knows how the cap system works, but if the GM asks Marleau to waive his "in faith negotiated" NMC, he might be pissed off and it could rub off on the younger guys.  You don't want a situation where the players feel like no-trades and no-movement clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on.  Might be a small thing since they all know the situation but still should be a consideration.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 02, 2018, 09:06:40 AM
Marleau has to be willing to leave though, not sure if he wants to.

This is true. It's why I fake traded him to San Jose. I figured it would soften the blow.

  Also he's very popular with Matthews and Marner, so you don't want to cause some sort of strife in the room.

Well, two things. One, I think that once those guys sign gigantic extensions it's time to ask them to put on big boy pants and deal with the realities of the business. They're more than welcome to take 3 million dollar discounts each to make it work with Marleau but if they're asking for market value then the Leafs are well within their rights to ask them to step up and be the leaders on the team.

Secondly, Marleau's going to be 40. I'm pretty sure they're already preparing for him not being around much longer.

  I mean everyone is professional and knows how the cap system works, but if the GM asks Marleau to waive his "in faith negotiated" NMC, he might be pissed off and it could rub off on the younger guys.  You don't want a situation where the players feel like no-trades and no-movement clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on.  Might be a small thing since they all know the situation but still should be a consideration.

If everyone's professional then, no, I don't think it's fair to think Marleau might be offended by just the question. Players know that they might get asked to waive a NTC or NMC, that doesn't invalidate the fact that they have them or lead them to assume that the other side negotiated in bad faith. A NMC isn't a guarantee that a team won't ask you about a trade, it's just security in the knowledge that the player has the final say about any potential trades. 

Even then though, worst case scenario where Marleau doesn't agree, you either look to trade Zaitsev or you let Gardiner walk and then after next year you take the Gardiner money and look to add on defense. Either way, the idea that the Leafs are going to be horribly against the wall doesn't play out.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2018, 10:05:31 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/11/30/leafs-grab-bag-on-auston-matthews-and-the-power-play-the-leafs-speed-linemates-for-nazem-kadri-travis-dermotts-top-four-case-patrick-marleau-gud-pros/

Big write up by MLHS earlier this week and their spotlight on Marleau highlights how Marleau has been pretty key to shepherding our kids.

And his biological kids are imprinting and getting pretty settled into playing their own hockey. I have difficulty seeing him uproot again so soon.

I can see the Leafs making room for him to stay for the full duration of his contract. The anecdotes of Marleau naturally modelling how to spend and treat younger players is not going to show up on the stat sheet, but I cant see how that doesnt make a difference in how Matthews and Marner and co. go forward with their big pay days.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 02, 2018, 10:31:23 AM
And his biological kids are imprinting and getting pretty settled into playing their own hockey. I have difficulty seeing him uproot again so soon.

It'd be a pretty different situation though. He'd be in the last year of what figures to be his last contract. He wouldn't have to uproot, he'd just have to be away on business for 6 months.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2018, 11:15:52 AM
I know people are probably not that into talking about another contract negotiation but last night they were talking about the Leafs apparently having some optimism that Gardiner could get re-signed.

Yeah that intrigued me too. If they can get Gardiner signed for anything under $6mil I think they have to find a way to make that fit. If it's not moving Marleau (which I don't think happens unless they win the Cup this season or if they're able to pull an Orpik situation) then trading Zaitsev+Brown should make enough room too. Then when Marleau's contract comes off the books we'll have some extra money to play around with.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 02, 2018, 11:22:30 AM
I know people are probably not that into talking about another contract negotiation but last night they were talking about the Leafs apparently having some optimism that Gardiner could get re-signed.

Yeah that intrigued me too. If they can get Gardiner signed for anything under $6mil I think they have to find a way to make that fit. If it's not moving Marleau (which I don't think happens unless they win the Cup this season or if they're able to pull an Orpik situation) then trading Zaitsev+Brown should make enough room too. Then when Marleau's contract comes off the books we'll have some extra money to play around with.

I love Brown and all, but if he's the difference between signing Gardiner to something nice and reasonable, well then I'll help him pack his bags.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on December 02, 2018, 12:29:58 PM
I know people are probably not that into talking about another contract negotiation but last night they were talking about the Leafs apparently having some optimism that Gardiner could get re-signed.

Yeah that intrigued me too. If they can get Gardiner signed for anything under $6mil I think they have to find a way to make that fit. If it's not moving Marleau (which I don't think happens unless they win the Cup this season or if they're able to pull an Orpik situation) then trading Zaitsev+Brown should make enough room too. Then when Marleau's contract comes off the books we'll have some extra money to play around with.

I love Brown and all, but if he's the difference between signing Gardiner to something nice and reasonable, well then I'll help him pack his bags.

Yeah, Brown's loveable.... but I think I could learn to love Trevor Moore or Mason Marchment or Pierre Engvall or any other Marlie who can do 80-90% of what Brown does for 30-40% of the salary.

I think they'd still have to find a taker for Zaitsev too.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 02, 2018, 12:57:45 PM
Zaitsev has been playing better of late.  He keeps it up and I think he's definitely tradeable.  And much as I have criticized Gardiner in the past (and still want to see him demoinstrate that he will not melt down in G7s) he has solidified his game.  It would be great to keep him.

Boy, I hope Liljegren and Sandin are paying close attention this year because they are going to be on the blueline one way or the other real soon.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2018, 01:32:05 PM
So who comes out of the line-up: Ennis or Leivo?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on December 02, 2018, 01:42:51 PM
So who comes out of the line-up: Ennis or Leivo?

Brown.

But probably Leivo.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
So who comes out of the line-up: Ennis or Leivo?

Brown.

But probably Leivo.

Leivo probably has more offense than Brown but I think Brown will always give a better effort than Leivo.  Like last night for example, it was Brown's hustle that set up the winning goal, no denying that. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 02, 2018, 01:54:26 PM
So who comes out of the line-up: Ennis or Leivo?

In typical Babcock fashion, it'll depend on who they're playing where, with very little in terms of logic to backup the decisions.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2018, 02:12:00 PM
In typical Babcock fashion, it'll depend on who they're playing where, with very little in terms of logic to backup the decisions.

I mean this is probably the best way to do it though. I'd hope neither of them are sitting for long stretches of time... assuming one of them doesn't end up on waivers soon.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 02, 2018, 02:44:32 PM
I don't think Marleau is going anywhere. Like his cap hit or not, he's an important part of this team. I could see Brown getting moved and despite what Kypreos said, I don't think Gardiner is taking 5 mill when he could probably get a lot more on the open market.
There will be tough decisions coming up and those might include losing a Kappy or Johnsson. We can't pay them all.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 02, 2018, 02:48:44 PM
I don't think Marleau is going anywhere. Like his cap hit or not, he's an important part of this team. I could see Brown getting moved and despite what Kypreos said, I don't think Gardiner is taking 5 mill when he could probably get a lot more on the open market.
There will be tough decisions coming up and those might include losing a Kappy or Johnsson. We can't pay them all.

Cap hits are going to be pretty damn important next year.

Ideally, we win the cup this year. He retires and we disappear his hit. Gardiner stays. We win the cup next year. Everyones happy. Some people are happy twice.  😀
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 02, 2018, 02:50:02 PM
I don't think Marleau is going anywhere. Like his cap hit or not, he's an important part of this team.

This year or the next, he's going pretty soon.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 02, 2018, 03:07:44 PM
I don't think Marleau is going anywhere. Like his cap hit or not, he's an important part of this team.

This year or the next, he's going pretty soon.
He'll be on the team until his contract runs out.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 02, 2018, 03:08:53 PM
He'll be on the team until his contract runs out.

On a team, anyway.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on December 02, 2018, 03:42:34 PM
So who comes out of the line-up: Ennis or Leivo?

Brown.

But probably Leivo.

Leivo probably has more offense than Brown but I think Brown will always give a better effort than Leivo.  Like last night for example, it was Brown's hustle that set up the winning goal, no denying that.

It's less obvious than streaking into the offensive zone, but Leivo's a lot better on the forecheck and cycle. He doesn't get the puck in, but he keeps it there. That certainly takes "effort" and "hustle." And, like you say and as scoring chances and shot generation numbers confirm, he's got more offense than Brown.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2018, 07:14:24 PM

Just a little paper transaction to make the Leafs roster compliant. Surprised they picked Dermott, but really doesn't matter. They'll waive a body tomorrow, assign that guy to the Marlies (if he clears) on Tuesday and call Dermott back up then.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2018, 07:32:28 PM

Just a little paper transaction to make the Leafs roster compliant. Surprised they picked Dermott, but really doesn't matter. They'll waive a body tomorrow, assign that guy to the Marlies (if he clears) on Tuesday and call Dermott back up then.

The only difference is that Dermotts cap hit is fully buriable. I suspect they just picked the youngest player.

I thought it would make more sense to loan Oz or Lindholm to get the full 1 days worth of 1.025M of cap relief, rather than just Dermotts 863k. The difference is basically negligible.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on December 02, 2018, 07:57:29 PM

Just a little paper transaction to make the Leafs roster compliant. Surprised they picked Dermott, but really doesn't matter. They'll waive a body tomorrow, assign that guy to the Marlies (if he clears) on Tuesday and call Dermott back up then.

The only difference is that Dermotts cap hit is fully buriable. I suspect they just picked the youngest player.

I thought it would make more sense to loan Oz or Lindholm to get the full 1 days worth of 1.025M of cap relief, rather than just Dermotts 863k.

Oz or Lindholm makes more sense purely from a cap standpoint, but I think it's a bad idea otherwise in terms of managing people.  Even if it's only a paper transaction, it still has the chance to be taken otherwise by a European who has committed to coming to the Leafs to play, whereas Dermott will get it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 08:05:45 PM

Just a little paper transaction to make the Leafs roster compliant. Surprised they picked Dermott, but really doesn't matter. They'll waive a body tomorrow, assign that guy to the Marlies (if he clears) on Tuesday and call Dermott back up then.
Dermott misses a day of NHL money, sucks for him.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 02, 2018, 08:31:30 PM
Oz or Lindholm makes more sense purely from a cap standpoint, but I think it's a bad idea otherwise in terms of managing people.  Even if it's only a paper transaction, it still has the chance to be taken otherwise by a European who has committed to coming to the Leafs to play, whereas Dermott will get it.

I agree. Sucks to have to shortchange a guy for a day, but Willy'll buy him dinner.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 03, 2018, 11:20:54 AM
Our division has the 1st, 2nd and 5th best records in the league.  If the season ended today the team with the 5th best record in the league would play on the road in the playoffs.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on December 03, 2018, 12:37:51 PM
You guys were right. Leivo's gone to Van city.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Michael on December 03, 2018, 06:44:19 PM
Bettman projects cap next year of $83 million.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: lamajama on December 03, 2018, 09:04:24 PM
And 16 and 34 say thank you very much....
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 05, 2018, 12:27:54 AM
It has been a fun few days. I hope the teams next goal involves reducing Andersons games played over the season.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 05, 2018, 10:13:09 AM
https://theathletic.com/694601/2018/12/05/wheeler-on-the-value-of-hanging-onto-the-puck-and-how-the-leafs-escape-artists-make-their-teammates-better/

Wheeler outlines a player type that the Leafs are leaning on for success: players that can hold the puck longer than usual and skate their way through and out of traffic.

In lineup building parlance, I've been calling them carriers but their skills also translate to 'heavier' or extended OZ possession. Their skill with the puck and skating opens up more play options than your standard chip and chase player has (Marleau, Brown, Hyman, and to a certain extent Johnsson, Kapanen). They excel at shepherding the puck in transition, drawing in extra defenders, and getting the puck to their teammates who now have more space to operate.

The three Leafs Wheeler highlights:

And arguably one of the best in the Leafs system about to be added to the team: William Nylander

Leafs Prospects who play similarly: Bracco, Timashov, Moore, Sandin
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 05, 2018, 03:49:08 PM
Was just looking at the Marleau contract, and he's got a $3m bonus in July, then he's just playing for $1.25m during the season.


Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 05, 2018, 03:52:28 PM
Was just looking at the Marleau contract, and he's got a $3m bonus in July, then he's just playing for $1.25m during the season.

Marleau will be 3rd all time in games played if he plays all remaining games this season and next (which i have no doubt he will as he never misses a game)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: disco on December 05, 2018, 03:57:03 PM
Buffalo. Detroit. Montreal. Winnipeg. Calgary. Edmonton. Vancouver. Minnesota. Florida.
INVASION.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on December 05, 2018, 03:59:12 PM
Was just looking at the Marleau contract, and he's got a $3m bonus in July, then he's just playing for $1.25m during the season.
NMC...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on December 05, 2018, 04:09:48 PM
LTIR is the only way out of the Marleau contract but I doubt it happens. He will likely be taking up valuable cap space next year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 07, 2018, 01:14:48 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 07, 2018, 01:21:21 PM

Well, a proper response should have come from the officials.  That stuff to me is a major penalty.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 07, 2018, 01:25:48 PM

Well, a proper response should have come from the officials.  That stuff to me is a major penalty.

I would have liked to see a major there, too. I'd also say the Leafs did respond. That's when they slowly started to pick up their game, and they eventually responded on the scoresheet. That's where I want to see the response. With goals, not fists.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 07, 2018, 01:29:46 PM
LTIR is the only way out of the Marleau contract but I doubt it happens. He will likely be taking up valuable cap space next year.

Not saying it is going to happen but if he decides he wants to retire, the leafs could trade him to another team first. Theyd have to give up draft pick(s) as compensation or perhaps take on a lesser bad contract.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 07, 2018, 05:27:59 PM
I thought he couldn't be traded.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 07, 2018, 06:06:00 PM
I thought he couldn't be traded.

If he agrees, he can be traded.  I would assume that if he is on good terms with the leafs then if he no longer plans to play, he will allow his rights to be traded. But he could certainly disallow that if he chooses to.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 07, 2018, 06:12:25 PM
I thought he couldn't be traded.

He has a no movement clause so they can't do anything without asking first. Unless the Leafs win a cup this year, Marleau is not going anywhere. Leafs are not going to treat Matthews' and Marner's dad like crap. Not happening.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 07, 2018, 06:20:55 PM

Asking a player if he'd be open to a trade is not treating them like crap.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 07, 2018, 06:29:11 PM

Asking a player if he'd be open to a trade is not treating them like crap.
Fine..We don't want you anymore. Better?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 07, 2018, 06:33:45 PM
Fine..We don't want you anymore. Better?

Better at what? There's a reason why a smart executive wouldn't phrase things like that. There are ways to broach the subject reasonably where Marleau wouldn't need to feel slighted even if he was the fragile porcelain doll you seem to think he is.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 08, 2018, 11:32:01 AM
I think Patrick Marleau has been around long enough to know it's part of the business side of the game. I'd also like to think that he'd be wise enough to see the writing on the wall already.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 08, 2018, 11:38:14 AM
Hey a beach chair on Robidas Island for a year is not a bad thing, plenty o money and lots of tropical drinkies
,the kidz can play in the surf and he can communicated with Mitch and Auston on Facetime
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 08, 2018, 11:45:22 AM
Marleau will only be leaving the Leafs before the end of his contract if he wants to.

And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining.  We knew from the get-go that his cap hit wasn't going to be justified by his points production.  They overpaid him to come in and be a mentor, which by all accounts he's done superbly, and hopefully put up a decent number of points.  He'll probably end up with 20/40 at the end of the season.  He won't be a defensive black hole.

Would it be nice if he were getting paid 4 instead of 6?  Of course, but then he never would have left SJ for that number.

I think Marleau is doing just fine, in the big scheme of things.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 08, 2018, 11:52:53 AM
I think Patrick Marleau has been around long enough to know it's part of the business side of the game. I'd also like to think that he'd be wise enough to see the writing on the wall already.

Like I said though, you don't even need to bring it up in a way that implies anything. Because he's got the NMC he's got the final authority on trades so in any exit interview you could say "If we get any trade offers for you should we pass them along for your consideration or are you happy here?"

If he says he'd never even think of moving on, you drop it. If he seems receptive to at least considering it, you're not insulting him by exploring possibilities.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 08, 2018, 12:13:32 PM
I think Patrick Marleau has been around long enough to know it's part of the business side of the game. I'd also like to think that he'd be wise enough to see the writing on the wall already.

Like I said though, you don't even need to bring it up in a way that implies anything. Because he's got the NMC he's got the final authority on trades so in any exit interview you could say "If we get any trade offers for you should we pass them along for your consideration or are you happy here?"

If he says he'd never even think of moving on, you drop it. If he seems receptive to at least considering it, you're not insulting him by exploring possibilities.
Winning a Cup this season might help make his decision. He would have already accomplished everything in his career at that point and might think twice about playing more years. Ergo, go back to SJ and play your retirement year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: KadriFan on December 08, 2018, 01:35:39 PM
I would be surprised if they offer him a coaching job next summer.  Maybe the Marlies
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 08, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
Just so everyone knows, even if he retires, since he signed the contract at age 35+, his cap hit stays.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Arn on December 08, 2018, 02:33:01 PM
Marleau will only be leaving the Leafs before the end of his contract if he wants to.

And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining.  We knew from the get-go that his cap hit wasn't going to be justified by his points production.  They overpaid him to come in and be a mentor, which by all accounts he's done superbly, and hopefully put up a decent number of points.  He'll probably end up with 20/40 at the end of the season.  He won't be a defensive black hole.

Would it be nice if he were getting paid 4 instead of 6?  Of course, but then he never would have left SJ for that number.

I think Marleau is doing just fine, in the big scheme of things.

If there was a like function on this forum I'd have clicked like for this post.

We often deride "intangibles" since we can't quantify them but when it comes to it that's kind of exactly what he's providing, in a much better way than the likes of a Colton Orr, obviously
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 08, 2018, 02:36:14 PM
And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining. 

I've looked throughout the thread and I don't know where you're seeing "all the complaining" about Marleau. Some people think it'd make next year's team better if they didn't have to worry about his cap hit, then there's been some discussion about whether or not they could trade him.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 08, 2018, 03:54:32 PM
And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining. 

I've looked throughout the thread and I don't know where you're seeing "all the complaining" about Marleau. Some people think it'd make next year's team better if they didn't have to worry about his cap hit, then there's been some discussion about whether or not they could trade him.

Most of the complaining (about Marleau) is in the GDTs, so that might be the context of the comment.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 08, 2018, 04:16:01 PM
And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining. 

I've looked throughout the thread and I don't know where you're seeing "all the complaining" about Marleau. Some people think it'd make next year's team better if they didn't have to worry about his cap hit, then there's been some discussion about whether or not they could trade him.

Most of the complaining (about Marleau) is in the GDTs, so that might be the context of the comment.

Well, alot of the GDTs is just complaining and scapegoating in general, so one has to consider the source.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 08, 2018, 04:31:45 PM
And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining. 

I've looked throughout the thread and I don't know where you're seeing "all the complaining" about Marleau. Some people think it'd make next year's team better if they didn't have to worry about his cap hit, then there's been some discussion about whether or not they could trade him.

Yeah I think herman's right it might have been in the GDTs. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on December 08, 2018, 06:57:39 PM
Marleau will only be leaving the Leafs before the end of his contract if he wants to.

And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining.  We knew from the get-go that his cap hit wasn't going to be justified by his points production.  They overpaid him to come in and be a mentor, which by all accounts he's done superbly, and hopefully put up a decent number of points.  He'll probably end up with 20/40 at the end of the season.  He won't be a defensive black hole.

Would it be nice if he were getting paid 4 instead of 6?  Of course, but then he never would have left SJ for that number.

I think Marleau is doing just fine, in the big scheme of things.

Yep. And if the Leafs don't win a Cup this season, the already slim chance of him wanting to leave the Leafs becomes zero.

If you get rid of Zaitsev and Brown, that opens up the same amount of cap dollars.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 10, 2018, 02:12:00 PM
Any word or educated guesses how the lines will look for 2 games with Hyman out?

Marleau-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Kapanen
Ennis-Kadri-Nylander
Lindholm-Goat-Brown



(Nylander could flip with Kapanen if they think Willy's ready to reunite with Matthews)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 10, 2018, 02:18:23 PM
Any word or educated guesses how the lines will look for 2 games with Hyman out?

Marleau-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Kapanen
Ennis-Kadri-Nylander
Lindholm-Goat-Brown



(Nylander could flip with Kapanen if they think Willy's ready to reunite with Matthews)
All likelihood, Brown takes his spot. Goat comes in and Lindholm goes to wing.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 10, 2018, 02:21:29 PM
Any word or educated guesses how the lines will look for 2 games with Hyman out?

Marleau-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Kapanen
Ennis-Kadri-Nylander
Lindholm-Goat-Brown



(Nylander could flip with Kapanen if they think Willy's ready to reunite with Matthews)
All likelihood, Brown takes his spot. Goat comes in and Lindholm goes to wing.

Oh yeah, forgot that Brown is like "Hyman-lite" in terms of his "he goes and gets the puck, and goes and gets it, and goes and gets it".  You're probably right
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 10, 2018, 03:36:29 PM
Any word or educated guesses how the lines will look for 2 games with Hyman out?

Marleau-Tavares-Marner
Johnsson-Matthews-Kapanen
Ennis-Kadri-Nylander
Lindholm-Goat-Brown



(Nylander could flip with Kapanen if they think Willy's ready to reunite with Matthews)
All likelihood, Brown takes his spot. Goat comes in and Lindholm goes to wing.

Oh yeah, forgot that Brown is like "Hyman-lite" in terms of his "he goes and gets the puck, and goes and gets it, and goes and gets it".  You're probably right
I would have liked to see one of the Marlies get rewarded for a few games.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 10, 2018, 03:47:41 PM
Marleau will only be leaving the Leafs before the end of his contract if he wants to.

And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining.  We knew from the get-go that his cap hit wasn't going to be justified by his points production.  They overpaid him to come in and be a mentor, which by all accounts he's done superbly, and hopefully put up a decent number of points.  He'll probably end up with 20/40 at the end of the season.  He won't be a defensive black hole.

Would it be nice if he were getting paid 4 instead of 6?  Of course, but then he never would have left SJ for that number.

I think Marleau is doing just fine, in the big scheme of things.

Yep. And if the Leafs don't win a Cup this season, the already slim chance of him wanting to leave the Leafs becomes zero.

If you get rid of Zaitsev and Brown, that opens up the same amount of cap dollars.

I really do like this trend of describing the idea that a guy who's turning 40 before next season and has already made 90+ million dollars may consider retiring as some sort of crazy nonsense fantasy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: mr grieves on December 10, 2018, 04:29:14 PM
Marleau will only be leaving the Leafs before the end of his contract if he wants to.

And anyway, I'm not sure why all the complaining.  We knew from the get-go that his cap hit wasn't going to be justified by his points production.  They overpaid him to come in and be a mentor, which by all accounts he's done superbly, and hopefully put up a decent number of points.  He'll probably end up with 20/40 at the end of the season.  He won't be a defensive black hole.

Would it be nice if he were getting paid 4 instead of 6?  Of course, but then he never would have left SJ for that number.

I think Marleau is doing just fine, in the big scheme of things.

Yep. And if the Leafs don't win a Cup this season, the already slim chance of him wanting to leave the Leafs becomes zero.

If you get rid of Zaitsev and Brown, that opens up the same amount of cap dollars.

I really do like this trend of describing the idea that a guy who's turning 40 before next season and has already made 90+ million dollars may consider retiring as some sort of crazy nonsense fantasy.

I thought the 35+ contract means we'd see no cap savings in the event of a retirement and the only way we clear his contract from the cap is by moving him to another team or to LTIR?

Anyhow, I doubt he's willingly leaving the roster until he has his Cup.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 10, 2018, 04:35:31 PM
Just so everyone knows, even if he retires, since he signed the contract at age 35+, his cap hit stays.

I think some are forgetting this point.

Though I understand the point of this rule to prevent teams from taking advantage of front-loaded contracts, it's somewhat unfair to the Leafs in this situation. If Marleau chooses to retire next year, he foregoes his salary, but it handcuffs the Leafs because they now have his full cap hit on the books AND they have to replace him.

So Nik's point that a very wealthy (and currently healthy) Marleau may be fully willing to walk -- especially if they win the cup -- raises a very real risk.

My question: if he retires and is therefore owed no salary, what value would the Leafs have to pay to trade him to a bottom-cap team? It can't very high; maybe a mid- to late-round pick?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on December 10, 2018, 04:42:08 PM
My question: if he retires and is therefore owed no salary, what value would the Leafs have to pay to trade him to a bottom-cap team? It can't very high; maybe a mid- to late-round pick?

That's the scenario that I was thinking of, especially since he'd only be playing for $1.25m during the regular season after his signing bonus is paid.  And I'm assuming that his signing bonus doesn't have to be repaid if he retires...I'm not sure of the rules on that.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: louisstamos on December 10, 2018, 04:45:31 PM
My question: if he retires and is therefore owed no salary, what value would the Leafs have to pay to trade him to a bottom-cap team? It can't very high; maybe a mid- to late-round pick?

Unfortunately a lot higher - for example, the Detroit Red Wings had to give up a 1st round pick (16th overall) to take on a retired Pavel Datsuyk.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/red-wings-trade-pavel-datsyuks-contract-coyotes/

edit: my bad - Detroit got a first round pick in return.  Basically moved down 4 spots in the first round in order for Phoenix to take it.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 10, 2018, 04:48:01 PM
I thought the 35+ contract means we'd see no cap savings in the event of a retirement and the only way we clear his contract from the cap is by moving him to another team or to LTIR?

Right. And you pay him his signing bonus as a bon voyage then trade him and his high cap hit/low actual payout to a team with cap room along with a 4th or something.

Again, I have no way of knowing how things shake out but nothing there is outside the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 10, 2018, 04:52:08 PM
Unfortunately a lot higher - for example, the Detroit Red Wings had to give up a 1st round pick (16th overall) to take on a retired Pavel Datsuyk.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/red-wings-trade-pavel-datsyuks-contract-coyotes/

edit: my bad - Detroit got a first round pick in return.  Basically moved down 4 spots in the first round in order for Phoenix to take it.

It's not even that bad. Phoenix got the 16th pick and Datsyuk from Detroit, Detroit got the 20th pick and the 53rd pick from Phoenix. There's really no evidence getting rid of Datsyuk cost Detroit anything at all.

To illustrate the point, Phoenix traded the 53rd pick to move up four spots and just a little while later in the draft the Blues traded the 87th pick to move up two spots.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 10, 2018, 08:20:35 PM
Ya, if there's a team that has a lot of cap space, it's of zero burden to them to have him on the roster for one year. The cost can't be very high.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 13, 2018, 11:09:56 AM
There were a couple of pretty good posts over on r/leafs (which is a pretty mixed bag a lot of the time, as a function of being the largest online community of Leafs-invested people) in light of the 'tough' talk surrounding the Leafs during their mini slump culminating in an embarrassing showing in Boston and Hyman's suspension.

Why is nobody talking about the hit on Johnsson (https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/a4rino/why_is_nobody_talking_about_the_hit_on_johnsson/)
Boston Bruins, Referees, and the Normalising Of Dirty Hockey (https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/a4y2k7/boston_bruins_referees_and_the_normalising_of/)

The strategy employed by the Bruins (and a couple other teams) takes advantage of the Normalization of Deviance (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/Diane_Vaughan_and_the_normalization_of_deviance). Basically flood the refs with so many infractions that they either feel bad about calling penalties, or have become immunized to the Bruins' antics ('boys will be boys', 'Marchand's gonna Marchand'). We saw it in the playoffs last season as well when our vaunted Power Play was neutered from the get go by the refs switching to 'Playoff Rules'.

What can we do about it?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on December 13, 2018, 10:32:59 PM
Yeah, Boston's been doing this for a LOOOOOOONG time.  They pretty much have it down to a science.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 14, 2018, 02:38:27 AM
The strategy employed by the Bruins (and a couple other teams) takes advantage of the Normalization of Deviance (https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/Diane_Vaughan_and_the_normalization_of_deviance). Basically flood the refs with so many infractions that they either feel bad about calling penalties, or have become immunized to the Bruins' antics ('boys will be boys', 'Marchand's gonna Marchand'). We saw it in the playoffs last season as well when our vaunted Power Play was neutered from the get go by the refs switching to 'Playoff Rules'.

What can we do about it?


Reminds me of the Philly Flyers Broad Street Bullies tactics back in the day, when there were so many penalties instigated by the Flyers that the referees couldn't call them all.

Yes, it was a vastly different back in the violent days of the NHL, but the idea that the Bruins employ a similar tactic leaving the referees with whatever choice they make in either calling them or not, is reminiscent of days past.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 14, 2018, 06:39:38 AM
There are hockey Moms and then there are awesome hockey Moms: a salute to hockey Moms everywhere!


Quote
...she did want to tell Toronto fans about her son and what this opportunity with the Maple Leafs means to him.

She wanted them to know he loves the city and the team and is committed to doing everything he can to help them win.

Quote
Those who know the family well credit Ema Matthews as the source of Auston Matthews quiet, grounded nature.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2018, 09:17:37 PM
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Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 16, 2018, 10:06:06 PM
It'll start clicking better soon.  The training camp do-over with The Roster We All Thought Were Getting is about done.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 16, 2018, 11:13:55 PM

This is a really good breakdown of whats happening (reverse luck).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 17, 2018, 05:47:12 AM
Some quick comparison stats (Re: Leafs - Tampa Bay):

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/500x300q90/924/NPhZaI.png)


Source:   Seigel/hockey-reference.com
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 17, 2018, 07:44:47 AM
Jons Siegel really buries the lede in his latest piece on Marners meteoric and totally expected rise. Let me unearth it for you.

Quote
Usually when we have our team parties, him and Jake are typically the ones doing a dance-off, Matthews said of his good buddy Marner and Jake Gardiner. Jakes more of a, I want to say a strip club kind of dancer Magic Mike, kind of erotic and Mitch is kinda more the Fortnite dances, todays kids kind of dances. Hes pretty good. Ill give him that. But Im more of a fan of Jakes dances.

Plus you get a taste of how his contract negotiation is going to go :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: BrownRolo on December 17, 2018, 08:07:17 AM
Jons Siegel really buries the lede in his latest piece on Marners meteoric and totally expected rise. Let me unearth it for you.

Quote
Usually when we have our team parties, him and Jake are typically the ones doing a dance-off, Matthews said of his good buddy Marner and Jake Gardiner. Jakes more of a, I want to say a strip club kind of dancer Magic Mike, kind of erotic and Mitch is kinda more the Fortnite dances, todays kids kind of dances. Hes pretty good. Ill give him that. But Im more of a fan of Jakes dances.

Plus you get a taste of how his contract negotiation is going to go :)

Matthews: Okay, Dubie, I'll sign the 8x10 deal. But you gave me your word. Are you sure you can keep it?

Dubas: Yes, Auston, I promise you as long as I am GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs we will go to Vegas once a year as a team so you can see the Magic Mike show.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 17, 2018, 09:43:22 AM
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It's frustrating.   Nylander hasn't been amazing but anyone expecting a guy to shake off 2.5 months of non-season/non NHL practice rust that everyone else got is absurd.  Expecting him to do it when his last professional game was in April is even stupider. 

The team is slumping.  Andersen hasn't been good this month.  Sparks hasn't been good all year. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 17, 2018, 11:18:00 AM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 17, 2018, 11:31:21 AM

That would have made him eligible for the Seattle expansion draft... so yay for the injury?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 17, 2018, 12:03:04 PM
That would have made him eligible for the Seattle expansion draft... so yay for the injury?

Liljegren seems to have a lot of convenient medical mishaps for Toronto.

I think he would've been a deadline call-up/reward at most.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on December 17, 2018, 12:53:59 PM

That would have made him eligible for the Seattle expansion draft... so yay for the injury?

Game 73 would have been the call-up date :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 17, 2018, 02:05:23 PM

This is the death knell of any veteran character forward signings by the Leafs for the duration of Tavares' contract.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 17, 2018, 03:26:38 PM
Kyle Dubas' press conference (for no particular reason) transcript (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/12/17/kyle-dubas-on-negotiations-with-auston-matthews-and-mitch-marner-its-our-intention-well-before-july-1st-that-we-have-an-agreement-long-term/), courtesy of MLHS.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 17, 2018, 08:41:50 PM
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Just over a third into the season. Getting good value for Tavares so far.

Martin: 2.5M AAV 4/2/6pts
Komarov: 3M AAV 3/8/11pts
Bozak: 5M AAV 4/9/13pts
JvR*: 7M AAV 3/4/7pts

For funsies: Lucic: 6M AAV 1/6/7pts

* 15GP only due to injury

Tavares: 11M AAV 20/14/34pts

Add in the players the Leafs have instead (Kapanen, Johnsson, Ennis) and the value starts to look ridiculous, as we always knew it would.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 17, 2018, 10:34:29 PM
JVR is having a tough go.

Of course, he's outscoring his salary comparable on the Leafs.  ;) :o :P
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 18, 2018, 07:19:02 AM


Quote from: Dubas
We are completely in control of that this time in that there is no excuse I cant say, I wasnt doing this job a year ago. We have to continue to work away with them and it will be our intention, well before July 1st, that we have an agreement and both players are here long term. One way or another, well get that point.

Slight dig at Lou here about the Nylander contract? "I can't say I wasn't doing this job a year ago".

Hopefully Dubas gets this done well before July 1 or we'll go through the Nylander anxiety x 1000
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 18, 2018, 08:13:21 AM
Continuing this discussion about the Leafs PP from the Florida GDT:

It seemed most obvious to me in the Tampa game.  Maybe they do a better job scouting (as you might expect the #1 team to do on the #2 team) but they seemed to know what was coming at all times from the Leafs PP and collapsed just right to take away all the usual options (ie when the puck went down low to Tavares it was smothered by the goalie and a D-man quickly sealing everything off). 

It is a better metric than straight shots but it's made me a little skeptical of 'high danger' chances, when the puck did go across to one of the off-wing shots we have the goalie seemed so expectant of it that it wasn't dangerous at all.  Those strong side shots take longer to get off than one timers which I fear is something that will eventually sink in as 'hotter' goalies stop all of those catch and release while one timers sail past Andersen going the other way.

I think in the end we just don't have enough shot options, Kadri hasn't been getting in on the action very much (which already makes it a 4 on 4 and not really a power play...) but then on top of that Matthews and Tavares are the only real shooters, that's 2 guys on the ice to smother and it seems to me teams have figured that out. 

Back to the goalies and dangerous chances I know shots are generally more dangerous when the pass goes across but I feel like there's a 'discount' on that when the pass comes from a known passer like Marner where the goalie is pretty much expecting a pass, and then another discount when it's a far side catch and release and not a one time that gets off right away.  The result is a good goalie shutting down all those 'high danger' chances pretty easily and I worry that if you just take comfort in that metric it ignores some of those distinctions between the teams that made a difference in the outcome.

It's really weird how Kadri's sort of becoming a running joke on the top PP unit for not doing anything. He's 7th on the team in points/60 and 6th in shots/60.  But last season he was a critical part of the Marner unit, finishing 3rd on the team in points/60 and 3rd in shots/60 and was top-30 in the entire league in both those categories. The Leafs should really be trying to get him some more puck touches there.

edit: and at a quick glance I believe all the guys ahead of him in points last season were defencemen or guys who play on the half walls, so you could probably make an argument that he was the best slot PP player in the league last season. Now he's essentially just a "decoy".
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 18, 2018, 08:30:13 AM


Quote from: Dubas
We are completely in control of that this time in that there is no excuse I cant say, I wasnt doing this job a year ago. We have to continue to work away with them and it will be our intention, well before July 1st, that we have an agreement and both players are here long term. One way or another, well get that point.

Slight dig at Lou here about the Nylander contract? "I can't say I wasn't doing this job a year ago".

Hopefully Dubas gets this done well before July 1 or we'll go through the Nylander anxiety x 1000


Maybe not a dig, but it's certainly a change in philosophy a little. In the summer Dubas borrowed one of Lou's favourite phrases/mottos, which was "if you have time, use it". I think the Nylander saga definitely made him re-think that.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 18, 2018, 08:35:00 AM
Continuing this discussion about the Leafs PP from the Florida GDT:

It's really weird how Kadri's sort of becoming a running joke on the top PP unit for not doing anything. He's 7th on the team in points/60 and 6th in shots/60.  But last season he was a critical part of the Marner unit, finishing 3rd on the team in points/60 and 3rd in shots/60 and was top-30 in the entire league in both those categories. The Leafs should really be trying to get him some more puck touches there.

edit: and at a quick glance I believe all the guys ahead of him in points last season were defencemen or guys who play on the half walls, so you could probably make an argument that he was the best slot PP player in the league last season. Now he's essentially just a "decoy".

My take is that since Kadri is such a creative player, I'd rather see him on one of the half-boards. The other thing is: with Nylander back, we've got another power play weapon. Having Kadri and Nylander run the second unit might increase its effectiveness.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 18, 2018, 10:00:26 AM
Continuing this discussion about the Leafs PP from the Florida GDT:

It's really weird how Kadri's sort of becoming a running joke on the top PP unit for not doing anything. He's 7th on the team in points/60 and 6th in shots/60.  But last season he was a critical part of the Marner unit, finishing 3rd on the team in points/60 and 3rd in shots/60 and was top-30 in the entire league in both those categories. The Leafs should really be trying to get him some more puck touches there.

edit: and at a quick glance I believe all the guys ahead of him in points last season were defencemen or guys who play on the half walls, so you could probably make an argument that he was the best slot PP player in the league last season. Now he's essentially just a "decoy".

My take is that since Kadri is such a creative player, I'd rather see him on one of the half-boards. The other thing is: with Nylander back, we've got another power play weapon. Having Kadri and Nylander run the second unit might increase its effectiveness.

The powerplay 'issue' isn't so much that Kadri sucks or that the Leafs don't have enough shooting options, it's exactly what Carlton said: they're just simply not using Kadri at all. Kadri's really not that good on the half-wall; his value comes from his singular focus on the PP, which is to jam the puck in.

Once the Leafs stop trying to force feed to Matthews (which is not a bad play, but currently being stymied), and start using Tavares and Kadri to plinko the puck a bit more (#TeamChaos), the results take care of themselves. The point of an overload PP unit is to take what the PK gives you and make them pay with whoever they're laying off of.

It seemed most obvious to me in the Tampa game.  Maybe they do a better job scouting (as you might expect the #1 team to do on the #2 team) but they seemed to know what was coming at all times from the Leafs PP and collapsed just right to take away all the usual options (ie when the puck went down low to Tavares it was smothered by the goalie and a D-man quickly sealing everything off). 

It is a better metric than straight shots but it's made me a little skeptical of 'high danger' chances, when the puck did go across to one of the off-wing shots we have the goalie seemed so expectant of it that it wasn't dangerous at all.  Those strong side shots take longer to get off than one timers which I fear is something that will eventually sink in as 'hotter' goalies stop all of those catch and release while one timers sail past Andersen going the other way.

Location-based shot metrics have their value, but location alone doesn't tell enough of the story. High Danger chances are notoriously spiky, and even more so for such a small sample as 5v4. What the Leafs measure are CSA (https://www.csahockey.com)-approved scoring chances, which is the next step beyond location + shot type metrics (Expected Goals) as it includes pre-shot movement context.

Speaking of pre-shot movement, I'm glad you brought up the strong-side catch and release vs weak-side one-timer. The one-timer does have the advantage of release time and puck speed. The way that Matthews* can shoot it though, you get even more important advantages like accuracy, deception (because he can choose when to pump fake, or hold, or release, or reverse a pass to a Tavares layup, or Kadri one-timer), and on the Royal Road pass a strong side leftie actually makes the goalie have to travel farther than on a weak-side rightie's one-timer.

* For most other left-shots in that spot, they really only have the option to redirect, or take an ugly short-side slapper.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 18, 2018, 10:39:03 AM
I still don't know what the hell you are doing hanging around here.  Why aren't you ghosting articles for Dreger or backstopping the star journos at The Athletic?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 18, 2018, 11:26:52 AM
I still don't know what the hell you are doing hanging around here.  Why aren't you ghosting articles for Dreger or backstopping the star journos at The Athletic?

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/0e96decc68ec7d91ee665f14c6cf76d1/tumblr_pjc375VBBq1vbtfo3o1_500.gif)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 19, 2018, 08:04:36 AM
My take is that since Kadri is such a creative player, I'd rather see him on one of the half-boards. The other thing is: with Nylander back, we've got another power play weapon. Having Kadri and Nylander run the second unit might increase its effectiveness.

The powerplay 'issue' isn't so much that Kadri sucks or that the Leafs don't have enough shooting options, it's exactly what Carlton said: they're just simply not using Kadri at all. Kadri's really not that good on the half-wall; his value comes from his singular focus on the PP, which is to jam the puck in.

Once the Leafs stop trying to force feed to Matthews (which is not a bad play, but currently being stymied), and start using Tavares and Kadri to plinko the puck a bit more (#TeamChaos), the results take care of themselves. The point of an overload PP unit is to take what the PK gives you and make them pay with whoever they're laying off of.


To be clear, I haven't in any way stated that Kadri sucks on the power play or even that the power play has an issue. I'm extremely patient in my analysis and reactions. I don't think a few games with a lack of success really says much of anything, to be honest.

In fact, what I've said is that I think Kadri should move the 2nd unit precisely because of his level of creativity and because of the return of Nylander.

Much of the success of the first unit is because of the three left-handed shots that Marner has to pass to; the Leafs don't seem to be creating that wall anymore (perhaps due to the PKers adjusting to take away options.)

If you put Kadri in Matthew's spot -- but on the 2nd unit -- he's more open to using his playmaking and shot in a more dangerous way. Marleau is well suited to the net-front presence.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2018, 09:27:06 AM
To be clear, I haven't in any way stated that Kadri sucks on the power play or even that the power play has an issue. I'm extremely patient in my analysis and reactions. I don't think a few games with a lack of success really says much of anything, to be honest.

In fact, what I've said is that I think Kadri should move the 2nd unit precisely because of his level of creativity and because of the return of Nylander.

Much of the success of the first unit is because of the three left-handed shots that Marner has to pass to; the Leafs don't seem to be creating that wall anymore (perhaps due to the PKers adjusting to take away options.)

If you put Kadri in Matthew's spot -- but on the 2nd unit -- he's more open to using his playmaking and shot in a more dangerous way. Marleau is well suited to the net-front presence.

Sorry for phrasing that in a way that conflated your point with the general fan hot take about Kadri and the power play. I very much agree with the bolded statement.

I see what you're intending with Kadri's creativity to bolster the second unit and that has merit. I would still be in favour of not making any personnel changes to the units largely because Kadri is a proven very-good-option with Marner's group, and Mitch is just trying out all the new toys at the moment.

Tyler Ennis is an honestly good half-wall creative as well and I think a good complement to Nylander. PP2 doesn't have the shot threat it used to, without Matthews, but I think this current configuration can still get very dangerous in a hurry. The half-walls have some of our best puck holders to draw out defenses and make plays. Down the middle we have two of our best stick-down-in-the-right-spot-always players in Marleau and Johnsson. It's really going to be about generating slot passes and rebounds and just tapping in the puck through the muck and going hard on retrievals on misses.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 19, 2018, 12:06:35 PM
Why not put Kapanen on 2PP?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 19, 2018, 12:31:40 PM
Why not put Kapanen on 2PP?
Because we don't want him to do too good so his contract will be cheaper! I think he should be on one of the PP units but Babs has different ideas. He thinks Reilly got really good because he plays with Hainsey.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 19, 2018, 12:35:55 PM
Why not put Kapanen on 2PP?
Because we don't want him to do too good so his contract will be cheaper! I think he should be on one of the PP units but Babs has different ideas. He thinks Reilly got really good because he plays with Hainsey.

Heh, maybe you're right.

Anyway, I think it's stupid to leave a proven scorer on the sidelines during the PP.  I think he could play Kadri's role on the 2nd unit if Babs must leave him on the 1st.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 19, 2018, 12:44:47 PM
To be clear, I haven't in any way stated that Kadri sucks on the power play or even that the power play has an issue. I'm extremely patient in my analysis and reactions. I don't think a few games with a lack of success really says much of anything, to be honest.

In fact, what I've said is that I think Kadri should move the 2nd unit precisely because of his level of creativity and because of the return of Nylander.

Much of the success of the first unit is because of the three left-handed shots that Marner has to pass to; the Leafs don't seem to be creating that wall anymore (perhaps due to the PKers adjusting to take away options.)

If you put Kadri in Matthew's spot -- but on the 2nd unit -- he's more open to using his playmaking and shot in a more dangerous way. Marleau is well suited to the net-front presence.

Sorry for phrasing that in a way that conflated your point with the general fan hot take about Kadri and the power play. I very much agree with the bolded statement.

I see what you're intending with Kadri's creativity to bolster the second unit and that has merit. I would still be in favour of not making any personnel changes to the units largely because Kadri is a proven very-good-option with Marner's group, and Mitch is just trying out all the new toys at the moment.

Tyler Ennis is an honestly good half-wall creative as well and I think a good complement to Nylander. PP2 doesn't have the shot threat it used to, without Matthews, but I think this current configuration can still get very dangerous in a hurry. The half-walls have some of our best puck holders to draw out defenses and make plays. Down the middle we have two of our best stick-down-in-the-right-spot-always players in Marleau and Johnsson. It's really going to be about generating slot passes and rebounds and just tapping in the puck through the muck and going hard on retrievals on misses.

Just curious, but what's your thought on going back to using two defensemen on the power play? Dermott-Gardiner could be interesting on the 2nd unit.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 19, 2018, 01:08:06 PM
Last year the Leafs had 9 players score 10 or more goals.  So far this year the have 10 on pace to do it and Nylander could easily hit that number if he gets his game going.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 19, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
Don't you mean "when" he gets his game going ;)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2018, 02:04:14 PM
Just curious, but what's your thought on going back to using two defensemen on the power play? Dermott-Gardiner could be interesting on the 2nd unit.

Only if we're already up by 4+ goals in the third, or if there's a faceoff with <20 seconds left on the advantage. As a dedicated course of attack, it'd really depend on the defenseman. Brent Burns or Shea Weber would benefit from a 3F/2D setup because their shots from the circles are legitimate weapons. For our group, I don't see any defenseman with the shooting talent that would make me want to take them over one of our other forwards.

Gardiner-Dermott would be interesting to see 5v5 though.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 19, 2018, 04:16:30 PM
I'm kind of on the fence, but I think Gardiner has the talent to be a weapon on the back end. I see Dermott and Gardiner as being mobile enough to take a forward spot. I wouldn't really advocate for the traditional 2D shot set up though.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2018, 04:57:24 PM
I'm kind of on the fence, but I think Gardiner has the talent to be a weapon on the back end. I see Dermott and Gardiner as being mobile enough to take a forward spot. I wouldn't really advocate for the traditional 2D shot set up though.

Do you mean back end weapon as in a scoring threat (direct goals)?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 19, 2018, 05:04:27 PM
No, I think (hope) that time has passed. I think it's well established that your best chance to score is by getting the puck on net, which is something Gardiner is good at.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 19, 2018, 07:16:31 PM
If he starts putting pucks in the net on PP then we call him the Gardiner Expressway.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 19, 2018, 10:25:30 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 19, 2018, 11:04:05 PM
Glorious

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 20, 2018, 10:05:04 AM
These are certainly by no means perfect stats that tell all of the story, but I was looking at some of our PK numbers and found these interesting:

              TOI/G      GA    GA/60
Zaitsev2:521710.42
Hainsey2:52169.82
Dermott1:3033.87
Rielly1:0911.52

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 20, 2018, 10:07:15 AM
Rent for $800? Are you living in a literal shoebox?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 20, 2018, 10:07:45 AM
Rent for $800? Are you living in a literal shoebox?

Well the tweet was from 2013.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 20, 2018, 10:08:10 AM
What you're not seeing there Carlton is that Zaitsev and Hainsey have gained their coach's trust in the tough minutes by paying attention to details.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 20, 2018, 10:08:21 AM
Rent for $800? Are you living in a literal shoebox?

Well the tweet was from 2013.

Even in 2013, that was cheap.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 20, 2018, 10:15:35 AM
What you're not seeing there Carlton is that Zaitsev and Hainsey have gained their coach's trust in the tough minutes by paying attention to details.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/u49M522ZDDe8w7IQ9S/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 20, 2018, 10:46:03 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/6a5916b377d5785fcde3d046b5a2a263/tenor.gif?itemid=3644622)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 20, 2018, 09:49:24 PM

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 20, 2018, 10:48:57 PM

For the love of god call someone up.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 20, 2018, 10:55:01 PM

Moore, Grundstrom, Timashov, Marchment...literally any of those guys would be worthy of some time in the spot.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 21, 2018, 12:43:27 AM

Moore, Grundstrom, Timashov, Marchment...literally any of those guys would be worthy of some time in the spot.

Bring each of them up for 2 or 3 games.  See where they're at.  They've got the luxury to experiment.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 21, 2018, 09:58:43 AM
I know the ASG isn't meant to be taken seriously, but it'll be interesting to see how many Leafs are selected this year. Marner is top-10 in points. Tavares is top-5 in goals. Rielly leads all defencemen in points. Matthews is 1st in goals/per and top-3 in points/game. Andersen is 2nd in wins. At most they can probably only fit 3 of them onto the team though.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 21, 2018, 10:04:37 AM

I'm just going to assume this was Dubas' direct response to this:

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 21, 2018, 10:09:46 AM
Edmonton used analytics? I know they had a strong department at one point, but it also seems like they never really listened to them.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 21, 2018, 10:19:54 AM
Edmonton used analytics? I know they had a strong department at one point, but it also seems like they never really listened to them.

I'm not really sure what he's referring to with Buffalo too, other than Tim Murray saying the word analytics a few times. He also seems to not realize that Pittsburgh and Washington, winners of the last 3 Stanley Cups, both have prominent members of the analytics community on their staffs. Bowman in Chicago has openly talked about how their use of analytics have given them an advantage. I don't quite remember if LA had people on their staff for it (although they recently hired one of the pioneers of hockey analytics) but their teams were analytics darlings.

I mean in this day and age pretty much every team has an analytics department and uses them in one way or another. Pierre just picked out a bunch of bad teams while ignoring all the good ones.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 21, 2018, 10:41:28 AM
I mean in this day and age pretty much every team has an analytics department and uses them in one way or another. Pierre just picked out a bunch of bad teams while ignoring all the good ones.

Yeah, and Florida had the analytics-heavy group in charge for what, 2 seasons? Maybe it was only one. It was brief, for sure. Arizona is failing, sure, but, they have a few significant barriers and haven't landed the top draft picks they need to get the highend talent that could push them over the top.

Typical McGuire hogwash - and part of the reason he doesn't get significant airtime up here anymore. He's among the last of a dying guard.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 21, 2018, 11:25:03 AM

I was expecting one of the AGMs to manage this back before we had AGMs under Dubas. This is a better solution anyway.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on December 21, 2018, 11:34:08 AM
I know the ASG isn't meant to be taken seriously, but it'll be interesting to see how many Leafs are selected this year. Marner is top-10 in points. Tavares is top-5 in goals. Rielly leads all defencemen in points. Matthews is 1st in goals/per and top-3 in points/game. Andersen is 2nd in wins. At most they can probably only fit 3 of them onto the team though.

My first reaction to this was there's no way Matthews is top-3 in pts/gm. Yep, he's tied for 2nd with MacKinnon.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 21, 2018, 07:22:38 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/12/21/mike-babcock-on-heaviness-the-advantages-of-depth-down-the-middle-lightening-frederik-andersens-workload-in-the-second-half-more/

Babcock has quite a bit to share on Overdrive. Primarily, how theres a plan in place to net Sparks more starts over the second half and keep Andersen around 60 starts.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 22, 2018, 07:53:55 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/12/21/mike-babcock-on-heaviness-the-advantages-of-depth-down-the-middle-lightening-frederik-andersens-workload-in-the-second-half-more/

Babcock has quite a bit to share on Overdrive. Primarily, how theres a plan in place to net Sparks more starts over the second half and keep Andersen around 60 starts.
He got a bit prickly when Feschuck suggested Andersen was worn out last season come playoffs. Like take a chill pill Mike
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 22, 2018, 08:51:06 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/12/21/mike-babcock-on-heaviness-the-advantages-of-depth-down-the-middle-lightening-frederik-andersens-workload-in-the-second-half-more/ (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/12/21/mike-babcock-on-heaviness-the-advantages-of-depth-down-the-middle-lightening-frederik-andersens-workload-in-the-second-half-more/)

Babcock has quite a bit to share on Overdrive. Primarily, how theres a plan in place to net Sparks more starts over the second half and keep Andersen around 60 starts.
He got a bit prickly when Feschuck suggested Andersen was worn out last season come playoffs. Like take a chill pill Mike


I, too, would like to see Sparks receive more playing time.  He needs it to fine tune his game further.    Looking forward to seeing the back-up in action more and the first-stringer not getting so 'worn out'.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 22, 2018, 10:28:32 AM
Just pulling this out of the GDT because its good:
Rielly has 4 assists so far?

Yep, but only one primary assist. Still a fantastic game for Morgan.

I think evaluating defensemen on primary points is kinda hogwash.  The analytics groups have proven that for forwards, secondary assists is not predictive of future performance and thats why we talk alot about primary points.  IIRC, there was less "its just noise" for d-men.

On another note, some people (not necessarily on this board) have been looking at Morgan's stats this year and saying "well yeah, he's just racking up the points on that lethal PP just passing across the umbrella... anyone decent can do that".  They aren't necessarily wrong.

That said, Morgan has 20 points at 5v5 this season (2nd in the league behind Chabot).  He's on pace for 47 points at 5v5.  Which would be the highest total for a D-man in the analytics era (since 2007-2008)

Only Erik Karlsson (x4), Brent Burns, Duncan Keith, and Mike Green have got 35 points in a year at 5v5 in that timespan.

While I also think points by defensemen (primary or otherwise) are not a key evaluator of their capabilities directly, it does give a proxy measure of their usage and specifically quality of teammate.

No surprise Riellys numbers are hopping in his second year getting more ice time with Marner, Matthews, and now John frickin Tavares. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 22, 2018, 12:49:57 PM
While Im semi on that train of thought, is it not fair to characterize John Tavares as the older, slower, smaller, more boring, and less flashy Auston Matthews?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 22, 2018, 01:34:34 PM
While Im semi on that train of thought, is it not fair to characterize John Tavares as the older, slower, smaller, more boring, and less flashy Auston Matthews?

Sure, so long as you add "more durable and with a longer track record of success."
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 22, 2018, 01:40:28 PM
Sure, so long as you add "more durable and with a longer track record of success."

I love John Tavares as much as legally required but success is not a track record he has.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 22, 2018, 02:25:05 PM
While Im semi on that train of thought, is it not fair to characterize John Tavares as the older, slower, smaller, more boring, and less flashy Auston Matthews?

except for the smaller part, that kinda drscribes the goat too.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 22, 2018, 02:32:44 PM
While Im semi on that train of thought, is it not fair to characterize John Tavares as the older, slower, smaller, more boring, and less flashy Auston Matthews?

except for the smaller part, that kinda drscribes the goat too.

Implicit is the prolific scoring bit that the Goat currently does not possess.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 22, 2018, 02:35:17 PM
I am waiting for the Goat to go on a scoring rampage
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 22, 2018, 02:41:41 PM

Matthews keeps a high grip on a shortish stick with a high kick point. Just a quick weight shift to bring some weight down on his hands and the stick does the bulk of the shot speed. Matthews gift is in getting to the hard-earned ice with the puck in control (shorter stick + stronger arms) and putting the puck where the goalie isnt with a larger repertoire of deceptive techniques.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 22, 2018, 03:02:32 PM
Sure, so long as you add "more durable and with a longer track record of success."

I love John Tavares as much as legally required but success is not a track record he has.

And that's why several teams were ready to pay him more than $11m to keep on failing.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 22, 2018, 03:43:04 PM
And that's why several teams were ready to pay him more than $11m to keep on failing.

Hold on a sec, I'm looking up my latin to find out how to describe the "Appealing to the Wisdom of NHL teams' spending habits on the UFA market" fallacy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 22, 2018, 03:46:49 PM
While Im semi on that train of thought, is it not fair to characterize John Tavares as the older, slower, smaller, more boring, and less flashy Auston Matthews?

except for the smaller part, that kinda drscribes the goat too.

Implicit is the prolific scoring bit that the Goat currently does not possess.

joking 😘
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 22, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
And that's why several teams were ready to pay him more than $11m to keep on failing.

Hold on a sec, I'm looking up my latin to find out how to describe the "Appealing to the Wisdom of NHL teams' spending habits on the UFA market" fallacy.

And I'll stand by for your ruggedly idiosyncratic explanation of why Tavares is a failure.  I'll give you credit, though, you were the only one on this board who vehemently denounced the signing back on July 1.  It's not easy to swim against the tide of opinion, especially when it's near-unanimous.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 22, 2018, 04:20:17 PM
And I'll stand by for your ruggedly idiosyncratic explanation of why Tavares is a failure.  I'll give you credit, though, you were the only one on this board who vehemently denounced the signing back on July 1.  It's not easy to swim against the tide of opinion, especially when it's near-unanimous.

Well, ok, I'm open to the idea of putting on a production of The Wiz and your post is a good start on the casting but who will we get for the Tin Man and the Lion?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 22, 2018, 04:22:15 PM
And I'll stand by for your ruggedly idiosyncratic explanation of why Tavares is a failure.  I'll give you credit, though, you were the only one on this board who vehemently denounced the signing back on July 1.  It's not easy to swim against the tide of opinion, especially when it's near-unanimous.

Well, ok, I'm open to the idea of putting on a production of The Wiz and your post is a good start on the casting but who will we get for the Tin Man and the Lion?

Matthews and Tavares, duh.  Marner obviously didn't cut it the other night.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 22, 2018, 04:41:44 PM
I like Tavares for the Tin Man because we can oil all of his rings and trophies.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 22, 2018, 04:57:52 PM
Boy, if there's one player/franchise in the modern NHL that has ever deserved separation of team success and his own contribution, it's John Tavares and the Islanders.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 22, 2018, 05:06:08 PM
Boy, if there's one player/franchise in the modern NHL that has ever deserved separation of team success and his own contribution, it's John Tavares and the Islanders.

I don't think it necessarily follows that saying a guy hasn't had a ton of success is also blaming him for that, just acknowledging it as a reality. Tavares certainly isn't the reason the Islanders weren't good but they weren't good.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on December 22, 2018, 05:13:20 PM
Tavares certainly isn't the reason the Islanders weren't good but they weren't good.

Agreed. So what's the relevance of bringing up his involvement in their lack of success if you concede he wasn't the reason?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on December 22, 2018, 05:17:35 PM
Gretzky was wholly unsuccessful without Messier.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 22, 2018, 05:19:56 PM
Agreed. So what's the relevance of bringing up his involvement in their lack of success if you concede he wasn't the reason?

Well, within this context it was the use of Tavares' supposed track record of "success" to differentiate him from Matthews. If all is meant by "success" is that Tavares has been a good NHL player for longer than Matthews has then that was already covered by saying that Tavares is older than Matthews and seems fairly meaningless as a distinction between the two(especially considering that Matthews has won an individual trophy where Tavares hasn't and taken his team to the playoffs in both of his seasons).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 22, 2018, 09:57:09 PM
Ennis has a broken ankle, now we will probably see a call up.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 22, 2018, 10:07:35 PM
Ennis has a broken ankle, now we will probably see a call up.
That's really too bad for him. I think he's kind of resurrected his career here. Depending on who comes up, he may have a hard time getting back into the lineup.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 22, 2018, 10:08:55 PM
Ennis has a broken ankle, now we will probably see a call up.
That's really too bad for him. I think he's kind of resurrected his career here. Depending on who comes up, he may have a hard time getting back into the lineup.
I'd like to see them give both Moore and Grundstrom a look, who knows how long Hyman is out too. Sit the Goat down.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 22, 2018, 10:12:26 PM
Ennis has a broken ankle, now we will probably see a call up.
That's really too bad for him. I think he's kind of resurrected his career here. Depending on who comes up, he may have a hard time getting back into the lineup.
I'd like to see them give both Moore and Grundstrom a look, who knows how long Hyman is out too. Sit the Goat down.
Agreed. I think both deserve a shot but depending on the role I wouldn't mind seeing Marchment too.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 22, 2018, 10:18:48 PM
Ennis has a broken ankle, now we will probably see a call up.
That's really too bad for him. I think he's kind of resurrected his career here. Depending on who comes up, he may have a hard time getting back into the lineup.
I'd like to see them give both Moore and Grundstrom a look, who knows how long Hyman is out too. Sit the Goat down.
Agreed. I think both deserve a shot but depending on the role I wouldn't mind seeing Marchment too.
I envision:

Grundstrom-Kadri-Nylander
Moore-Lindholm-Brown

as the 3rd and 4th lines tomorrow. It's only 1 game before the break and it's only Detroit. Why not?

(Can flip Moore and Grundstrom but I think him and Kadri together could be pretty good sandpaper)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 22, 2018, 10:30:47 PM
If I had to bet, Moore for Ennis will be the only will be only change to the line-up other than Sparks getting the start.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 22, 2018, 10:35:26 PM
Ennis has a broken ankle, now we will probably see a call up.
That's really too bad for him. I think he's kind of resurrected his career here. Depending on who comes up, he may have a hard time getting back into the lineup.
I'd like to see them give both Moore and Grundstrom a look, who knows how long Hyman is out too. Sit the Goat down.
Agreed. I think both deserve a shot but depending on the role I wouldn't mind seeing Marchment too.
I envision:

Grundstrom-Kadri-Nylander
Moore-Lindholm-Brown

as the 3rd and 4th lines tomorrow. It's only 1 game before the break and it's only Detroit. Why not?

(Can flip Moore and Grundstrom but I think him and Kadri together could be pretty good sandpaper)
Wouldn't mind seeing those lines. Gauthier needs to be waived. Nice kid and all but zero offence means he shouldn't be in the NHL.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 22, 2018, 10:39:21 PM
If I had to bet, Moore for Ennis will be the only will be only change to the line-up other than Sparks getting the start.

Might be Holl coming in for Marincin if Oz is still not ready.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 23, 2018, 09:09:00 AM
If I had to bet, Moore for Ennis will be the only will be only change to the line-up other than Sparks getting the start.
You're probably right but why not give a few different lineup looks. Leafs have to see what they have in the minors and if they can replace higher paid guys like Brown and Hyman. Leafs need to constantly turn out guys that can play on ELCs going forward when the cap crunch comes. Perfect situation to try more than 1 guy tonight.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 23, 2018, 09:26:18 AM
You're probably right but why not give a few different lineup looks. Leafs have to see what they have in the minors and if they can replace higher paid guys like Brown and Hyman.

I think the easy answer there is that I think the Leafs would probably say there's not a ton you're going to find out about "what you have" by giving Bracco or Grundstrom or whoever a few games in the NHL in a minor role that you aren't already learning by watching them in much larger roles on the Marlies night after night.

For better or worse, this management team has been pretty consistent in bringing guys up from the Marlies when they think they're ready and then leaving them around for good. Nylander, Dermott, Gauthier, your buddy Johnsson...they probably felt pretty confident in assessing them in the minors.

So for now you might as well give someone like Moore, who's very questionable as a "prospect" at best, a solid run of things if you think he's the best option to seamlessly fit into the lineup.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Deebo on December 23, 2018, 12:18:42 PM
If I had to bet, Moore for Ennis will be the only will be only change to the line-up other than Sparks getting the start.

Might be Holl coming in for Marincin if Oz is still not ready.

yup.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 23, 2018, 01:03:05 PM


You're probably right but why not give a few different lineup looks. Leafs have to see what they have in the minors and if they can replace higher paid guys like Brown and Hyman.

 your buddy Johnsson...

I mean I don't know him personally, I just think he's a good player and want him to do well. *shrugs*
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 23, 2018, 02:04:24 PM
If I had to bet, Moore for Ennis will be the only will be only change to the line-up other than Sparks getting the start.

Might be Holl coming in for Marincin if Oz is still not ready.

yup.

Cool. Cool, cool, cool.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 23, 2018, 02:04:52 PM
Morgan Rielly deserves Norris consideration this year because he's no longer playing behind Leo Komarov.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 23, 2018, 11:17:11 PM
The Maple Leafs as an organization have two mantras:

Trust the Process (https://www.tsn.ca/video/with-optimism-at-all-time-high-first-year-gm-dubas-shares-expectations-for-leafs~1479172) and its developmental sibling the Aggregation of Marginal Gains (https://hbr.org/2015/10/how-1-performance-improvements-led-to-olympic-gold).

Let's have former Leaf Connor Carrick explain things:
(https://jamesclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Untitled-design-5.png) (https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains)

John Tavares is the embodiment of those principles.

and now he's living out his dreams:
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 23, 2018, 11:18:27 PM

Clichebot....no!!!!!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 23, 2018, 11:19:12 PM

Clichebot....no!!!!!

It's how he's programmed.

Babcock wanted the Leafs to play like a machine.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 23, 2018, 11:44:52 PM

Toronto Maple Leafs Defensemen Giveaways:

Rielly: 43
Hainsey: 41
Zaitsev: 40
Gardiner: 32
Dermott: 25
Oz: 16
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 24, 2018, 05:53:22 AM
Notable merits:

Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 24, 2018, 05:57:53 AM
Score one for them all (with some exceptions):

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Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 24, 2018, 06:33:03 AM
The Athletic's Ian Tulloch takes a look at the Maple Leafs' PDO -- Percentage Driven Outcomes -- an analytical Dubas term.

5v5SH% +5v5SV% = PDO av.

The Leafs so far:
(https://imageshack.com/i/pnZmvk3up)

Expected (season end) projections: (click on chart to see total)

The Leafs goaltenders so far: (taking into account goal differential)
(https://imageshack.com/i/plMyYyEYp)

Total team (expected) PDO:
8.8 (5v5SH%) + [.927] rounding off to 92.70  (5v5SV%) = 101.5
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on December 24, 2018, 05:44:21 PM
I'm confused.  Andersen + Sparks have played a combined 47 games?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 24, 2018, 05:57:06 PM
I'm confused.  Andersen + Sparks have played a combined 47 games?
Projections for remaining games.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 24, 2018, 10:03:53 PM

It's the most giffable team in the league.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on December 24, 2018, 10:18:45 PM
I'm really starting to love this team
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 24, 2018, 11:07:34 PM

Full imagine:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvO8Q6iVsAAinub.jpg)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 24, 2018, 11:39:53 PM

Is it still pedantic of me to point out they it was a Leafs bedset, not pyjamas?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 27, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 31, 2018, 11:32:07 AM

If I had my druthers, I'd swap Brown and Moore too.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 31, 2018, 11:51:50 AM

If I had my druthers, I'd swap Brown and Moore too.
Brown is like Hyman so I see the reasoning but I'd def be tempted to put Moore with Marner and JT.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 31, 2018, 11:52:28 AM

If I had my druthers, I'd swap Brown and Moore too.

I like that line myself.  Brown may never be a 20-goal guy but he should be in the teens.  He's actually looked dangerous recently.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on December 31, 2018, 11:57:45 AM

If I had my druthers, I'd swap Brown and Moore too.

I'd like to see how Kapanen might do on his off-wing with those two - sort of an audition to play with Matthews and Nylander in the future.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 31, 2018, 11:59:08 AM

If I had my druthers, I'd swap Brown and Moore too.

I'd like to see how Kapanen might do on his off-wing with those two - sort of an audition to play with Matthews and Nylander in the future.
I think we'd all like to see that happen. That could be a very fun line.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on December 31, 2018, 12:01:41 PM
Brown is like Hyman so I see the reasoning but I'd def be tempted to put Moore with Marner and JT.

Yeah, Brown is Hyman-lite and should be fine in the GETDAPUCK role. He's not as truck-like, but his forechecking is still effective because he takes smart routes and doesn't give up on plays.

I think Babcock foresees Moore being a decent option with Tavares (Moore is a better skater) as he talked about it in the pre-season when Hyman had that hip-pointer, but isn't the type of coach to throw an emergency callup into that sort of expectation.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on December 31, 2018, 12:23:59 PM

If I had my druthers, I'd swap Brown and Moore too.

I'd like to see how Kapanen might do on his off-wing with those two - sort of an audition to play with Matthews and Nylander in the future.
I think we'd all like to see that happen. That could be a very fun line.

Ya, Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander......me likey
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on December 31, 2018, 01:07:11 PM
I really like Marleau - Kadri - Kapanen.

I'd keep those 3 together as the third line and augment the others.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 31, 2018, 01:22:29 PM
I really like Marleau - Kadri - Kapanen.

I'd keep those 3 together as the third line and augment the others.

I agree and also just that all the lines look awesome.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on December 31, 2018, 01:23:54 PM
I guess there's some competition with the Gilmour 93-94 era leafs but this team looks to be the best team of my lifetime.  I'm trying savour this season even if they do end up 2nd to the Lightning.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 01, 2019, 06:52:55 PM
See what happens when you pair up a mature and diligent shooter who can extend plays with his strong stick handling and quietly make goals happen out of nothing plays because he drifts into soft ice at the right time with a shifty playmaker who has eyes on the back of his head and always seems to find the right seam for tap ins?

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 02, 2019, 01:18:52 AM
In reference to Hermans quote,  Tavares, Marleau, and Hainsey all have one thing in common experience, and in Babcocks words, they know where to stand.  None more so in this case than John Tavares, who not only knows where to stand, but how to score.  With Marner at the helm, its magic.

Quote
Hes got a stick its like a crowbar, hes heavy, heavy on it. I mean, who knows? Hes got elite hockey sense. He finds his way to the net and he knows where goals are scored, Babcock said, simply, after the 4-2 win over the Blue Jackets.


Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 04, 2019, 09:41:51 AM

Even from the preview graphic, you can see Tavares standing out, but not quite the way Ovechkin and Skinner do. The line is where goal result and expected goals match up: i.e. the farther from the line, the more lucky/unlucky the shooter has been. Tavares lines up very nicely with his expected goals which is very promising for future success because he hasn't been riding a hot streak to get these results, rather he and his team are getting into the right positions with great frequency.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 05, 2019, 01:58:27 PM
If you're trying to work out how the Leafs cap situation is going to shake out next season, I think you're going to have to keep working around the Marleau deal.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 06, 2019, 01:06:08 AM
Said it many times before, Marleau isn't going anywhere until his contract runs its course.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 07, 2019, 03:52:57 PM
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/opinion/2019/01/05/the-half-glass-is-full-but-the-maple-leafs-feel-theres-more-to-prove-in-the-stretch-run.html

Quote
I think that feeling going into games that you can just kill another teams will to win, says Tavares, when asked what he wants to see between now and seasons end. And just knowing that you just feel that when (the Leafs) come into your building, you just know what a tough night its going to be. Even if you play your best, you know the odds are still probably against you, where we just have the ability to kind of take games over that way, and generate that momentum. Its hard to do that on a consistent basis.

Is that possible?

I think so, says Tavares. Theres certainly probably times when weve had it already, where weve had two, three games, but its the ability to carry that over for long stretches.

If you think this is particularly ruthless coming from John Tavares, I'll refer you to that time he threw a skate (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-players-cant-stay-away-sam-gagners-old-backyard-rink/) at best friend Sam Gagner for besting him in a one-on-one scrimmage (he missed).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 07, 2019, 09:57:18 PM
Why can't the Leafs ever get on a monster long win streak like Tampa just did? Win 8, lose 1 then win another 7? It's like too many times they come out unprepared, look lazy, soft as butter.  I know we have a ton of points midway through the season, but don't look now Boston is close to overtaking the Leafs for home ice. Wouldn't that be just the icing on the cake?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 07, 2019, 11:00:08 PM

The Leafs have had 3 different 5 game winning streaks this year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 07, 2019, 11:06:14 PM
The Leafs have not lost more than two games in a row this season.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 08, 2019, 12:30:34 AM
The Leafs have a shot at upsetting the very best teams in the league, but they would indeed be upsets.  Superior defense, like we saw tonight assuming it can be applied for at least four games in a given playoff series will probably be enough to best the Leafs.  In other words, our elite offensive capacity is good enough to overcome many teams, but not those with elite defensive play.  I would put TBL and NSH in that category.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 08, 2019, 06:47:51 AM
The Leafs have a shot at upsetting the very best teams in the league, but they would indeed be upsets.  Superior defense, like we saw tonight assuming it can be applied for at least four games in a given playoff series will probably be enough to best the Leafs.  In other words, our elite offensive capacity is good enough to overcome many teams, but not those with elite defensive play.  I would put TBL and NSH in that category.
I wouldn't put Tampa in the same defensive category as Nashville. Tampa is elite offensively but they don't defend as well as Nashville. The Leafs actually have a better goals against than Tampa.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on January 08, 2019, 10:50:04 AM
The Leafs have a shot at upsetting the very best teams in the league, but they would indeed be upsets.  Superior defense, like we saw tonight assuming it can be applied for at least four games in a given playoff series will probably be enough to best the Leafs.  In other words, our elite offensive capacity is good enough to overcome many teams, but not those with elite defensive play.  I would put TBL and NSH in that category.
I wouldn't put Tampa in the same defensive category as Nashville. Tampa is elite offensively but they don't defend as well as Nashville. The Leafs actually have a better goals against than Tampa.

I agree. While Tampa has some really good pieces on defense (much better than the Leafs) they're not as good defensively as the Preds.

Tampa vs Toronto in the playoffs is a coin flip for me. I think Toronto has the better goalie.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 08, 2019, 11:02:54 AM
The Leafs have a shot at upsetting the very best teams in the league, but they would indeed be upsets.  Superior defense, like we saw tonight assuming it can be applied for at least four games in a given playoff series will probably be enough to best the Leafs.  In other words, our elite offensive capacity is good enough to overcome many teams, but not those with elite defensive play.  I would put TBL and NSH in that category.
I wouldn't put Tampa in the same defensive category as Nashville. Tampa is elite offensively but they don't defend as well as Nashville. The Leafs actually have a better goals against than Tampa.

I agree. While Tampa has some really good pieces on defense (much better than the Leafs) they're not as good defensively as the Preds.

Tampa vs Toronto in the playoffs is a coin flip for me. I think Toronto has the better goalie.

TBL's defense is better up and down the pairings than the Leafs'.  I think their record is no fluke, and they truly are in a class above us.  Sure, we could beat them, but as I said it would be an upset (and probably would hinge on Andersen stealing at least a couple of games).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 08, 2019, 11:10:11 AM
We saw it last night and we see it quite often, the Leafs offensive juggernaut stifled by great Defensive teams. Isn't it time, if we are serious about a real Cup run to get Dougie Hamilton and play him with Rielly to create a truly real 1st Defensive pairing?   Hainsey can either drop down the list or be kept as a 7th D man (or sent to Robidas Island).  What would we have to give up?  Lilepad, Bracco and a 1st or more?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 08, 2019, 11:15:53 AM

Dougie Hamilton is a lot of things but one thing he emphatically is not is the answer to anyone's defensive problems.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on January 08, 2019, 11:37:46 AM

Dougie Hamilton is a lot of things but one thing he emphatically is not is the answer to anyone's defensive problems.
I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 08, 2019, 11:42:52 AM
So anyone who is, is going to cost us way too much??
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 08, 2019, 11:47:44 AM
Dougie Hamilton is a lot of things but one thing he emphatically is not is the answer to anyone's defensive problems.

He's not winning any Norris' but he's still a 25-year old borderline top pairing right handed defenceman signed to a reasonable rate for 2 more seasons after this one. If he's available the Leafs should be calling Carolina.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 08, 2019, 11:49:45 AM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 08, 2019, 12:00:04 PM
What would we have to give up?  Lilepad, Bracco and a 1st or more?

They're specifically looking for scoring, so I doubt Liljegren would be the centrepiece they're after. Gotta think it'd be something revolving around Kapanen. I don't think that'd be enough to get it done but I'd imagine they'd be pretty intrigued about an all-Finn line with him, Teravainen, and Aho.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 08, 2019, 12:40:14 PM
The Leafs have a shot at upsetting the very best teams in the league, but they would indeed be upsets.  Superior defense, like we saw tonight assuming it can be applied for at least four games in a given playoff series will probably be enough to best the Leafs.  In other words, our elite offensive capacity is good enough to overcome many teams, but not those with elite defensive play.  I would put TBL and NSH in that category.
I wouldn't put Tampa in the same defensive category as Nashville. Tampa is elite offensively but they don't defend as well as Nashville. The Leafs actually have a better goals against than Tampa.

I agree. While Tampa has some really good pieces on defense (much better than the Leafs) they're not as good defensively as the Preds.

Tampa vs Toronto in the playoffs is a coin flip for me. I think Toronto has the better goalie.

TBL's defense is better up and down the pairings than the Leafs'.  I think their record is no fluke, and they truly are in a class above us.  Sure, we could beat them, but as I said it would be an upset (and probably would hinge on Andersen stealing at least a couple of games).
Tampa's D is better than the Leafs but they're not a "lock down" type defense like Nashville. Tampa plays a similar style to Toronto where they would rather outscore you than protect a 2-1 lead.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 08, 2019, 12:51:34 PM
I'll give you that the Preds D is really good but...if Matthews goal wasn't offside, or he doesn't hit the post on his slap shot and if Kappy didn't put it off the post the Leafs are up 3-1 after the first and we have a totally different game.
As for T-Bay. I like the Leafs chances against them, I really do.
If we're looking at getting a #1 righty, I'd target Parayko. I don't think Dubas is willing to pay the price for a D man like him tho.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 08, 2019, 12:58:06 PM
Good to know! Is Korshkov playing yet, thought he is injured (again).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 08, 2019, 01:14:38 PM
Good to know! Is Korshkov playing yet, thought he is injured (again).

Dubas took in Korshkov's 3rd game (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/1/8/18173665/kyle-dubas-is-watching-hockey-in-russia-toronto-maple-leafs-yegor-korshkov-yelesin-andronov) since his return from injury.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 08, 2019, 01:31:53 PM
Dougie Hamilton is a lot of things but one thing he emphatically is not is the answer to anyone's defensive problems.

He's not winning any Norris' but he's still a 25-year old borderline top pairing right handed defenceman signed to a reasonable rate for 2 more seasons after this one. If he's available the Leafs should be calling Carolina.

Ok but to some extent you're just shuffling the deck chairs there. Sure, Hamilton is a RHD and so he could be on the top line with Rielly but that almost certainly means you can't bring back Gardiner so our #2 LHD suddenly looks pretty thin and you're not really adding much in the way of stout defensive presence. Throw in the cost to get Hamilton and it's tough not to think they'd be better off just keeping Gardiner.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Kaberle15 on January 08, 2019, 01:37:30 PM
I'll give you that the Preds D is really good but...if Matthews goal wasn't offside, or he doesn't hit the post on his slap shot and if Kappy didn't put it off the post the Leafs are up 3-1 after the first and we have a totally different game.
As for T-Bay. I like the Leafs chances against them, I really do.
If we're looking at getting a #1 righty, I'd target Parayko. I don't think Dubas is willing to pay the price for a D man like him tho.

If they can somehow keep Gardiner for the playoff run and add Parayko this year without losing any core player, the Matthews/Marner cap situation almost solve it self *

* Assuming Gardiner walks as an UFA next season.

Do some magic Dubas!
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 08, 2019, 02:11:00 PM
Good to know! Is Korshkov playing yet, thought he is injured (again).

Dubas took in Korshkov's 3rd game (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2019/1/8/18173665/kyle-dubas-is-watching-hockey-in-russia-toronto-maple-leafs-yegor-korshkov-yelesin-andronov) since his return from injury.

Alexander Yelesin, Artem Blazhiyevsky, this is like throwing darts against a dart board.  If they're such good defensive prospects why are they undrafted?  Are we going to keep bringing over Zaitsev's of the world in hopes that eventually someone fixes our defense?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 08, 2019, 02:22:02 PM
Alexander Yelesin, Artem Blazhiyevsky, this is like throwing darts against a dart board.  If they're such good defensive prospects why are they undrafted?  Are we going to keep bringing over Zaitsev's of the world in hopes that eventually someone fixes our defense?

Yeah, why in the world should we be spending our copious resources trying to take free shots at landing the next Mark Giordano, or Ed Belfour, or Yanni Gourde, or Martin St. Louis?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 08, 2019, 02:44:47 PM
Alexander Yelesin, Artem Blazhiyevsky, this is like throwing darts against a dart board.  If they're such good defensive prospects why are they undrafted?  Are we going to keep bringing over Zaitsev's of the world in hopes that eventually someone fixes our defense?

Yeah, why in the world should we be spending our copious resources trying to take free shots at landing the next Mark Giordano, or Ed Belfour, or Yanni Gourde, or Martin St. Louis?

Let's not get too carried away here. They're just looking for cheap depth players.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 08, 2019, 02:46:51 PM

Yeah, not to take a sensible position between two extremes or anything but while there are certainly quality players to be found who didn't get drafted it'd be kind of ridiculous to pin serious hopes on significantly improving the team via that method.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 08, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
Ok but to some extent you're just shuffling the deck chairs there. Sure, Hamilton is a RHD and so he could be on the top line with Rielly but that almost certainly means you can't bring back Gardiner so our #2 LHD suddenly looks pretty thin and you're not really adding much in the way of stout defensive presence. Throw in the cost to get Hamilton and it's tough not to think they'd be better off just keeping Gardiner.

I'm probably one of Jake's biggest fans on these boards but I'd still probably put Hamilton ahead of him. Even if it's just by a little bit the age difference and handedness make him a decent bit more valuable to me.

With that said, if Babcock ever decided to finally just move Rielly to the right side and pair him with Gardiner or Dermott AND Gardiner signed an extension with an AAV that didn't go higher than $6mil then yeah I'd probably be content not shuffling the chairs as you said. I'm just getting pretty tired of Rielly having to play with a crappy partner.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 08, 2019, 02:53:46 PM
Alexander Yelesin, Artem Blazhiyevsky, this is like throwing darts against a dart board.  If they're such good defensive prospects why are they undrafted?  Are we going to keep bringing over Zaitsev's of the world in hopes that eventually someone fixes our defense?

Yeah, why in the world should we be spending our copious resources trying to take free shots at landing the next Mark Giordano, or Ed Belfour, or Yanni Gourde, or Martin St. Louis?

Sure there are exceptions that fall through the cracks, but I'm specifically looking at the Leafs recent history with Ozhiganov, Zaitsev, Rosen and Borgman coming over, none of which move the needle on the defense. Could we get lucky and eventually find one that makes an impact like the players you mentioned above?  Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath that it'll happen this season or next when the Leafs window is wide open to have a run.

Edit: I added Rosen and Borgman whom I completely forgot about.  While I'm not against taking shots in the dark like this, there's a point where you can't just keep handing out contracts to these guys given the Leafs can only have 50 contracts.  Draft and develop your d-men (Lilejegren and Sandin please hurry up) or make a big trade for someone for immediate help.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on January 08, 2019, 03:01:03 PM
Trading for anyone with a term beyond this year is not a real possibility, is it? I don't know why names like Keith and Hamilton would even be mentioned as possible fits in Toronto.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on January 08, 2019, 03:02:25 PM
Alexander Yelesin, Artem Blazhiyevsky, this is like throwing darts against a dart board.  If they're such good defensive prospects why are they undrafted?  Are we going to keep bringing over Zaitsev's of the world in hopes that eventually someone fixes our defense?

Yeah, why in the world should we be spending our copious resources trying to take free shots at landing the next Mark Giordano, or Ed Belfour, or Yanni Gourde, or Martin St. Louis?

Let's not get too carried away here. They're just looking for cheap depth players.

Are KHL players cheap though?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 08, 2019, 03:03:43 PM
Ok but to some extent you're just shuffling the deck chairs there. Sure, Hamilton is a RHD and so he could be on the top line with Rielly but that almost certainly means you can't bring back Gardiner so our #2 LHD suddenly looks pretty thin and you're not really adding much in the way of stout defensive presence. Throw in the cost to get Hamilton and it's tough not to think they'd be better off just keeping Gardiner.

I'm probably one of Jake's biggest fans on these boards but I'd still probably put Hamilton ahead of him. Even if it's just by a little bit the age difference and handedness make him a decent bit more valuable to me.

With that said, if Babcock ever decided to finally just move Rielly to the right side and pair him with Gardiner or Dermott AND Gardiner signed an extension with an AAV that didn't go higher than $6mil then yeah I'd probably be content not shuffling the chairs as you said. I'm just getting pretty tired of Rielly having to play with a crappy partner.

Agreed, but he doesn't necessarily need someone of Hamilton's level. Maybe a small step down? I know you didn't like the suggestion earlier, but I really think someone like Vatanen, who's a good puck mover, would make a good fit. Rielly still does the heavy-lifting, but Vatanen can at least carry the puck up ice, unlike Hainsey.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 08, 2019, 03:08:29 PM
Trading for anyone with a term beyond this year is not a real possibility, is it? I don't know why names like Keith and Hamilton would even be mentioned as possible fits in Toronto.

Why isn't it a possibility?  Depends on the term and the cap hit no?  A guy like Pietrangelo has this year and next year on his cap at $6.5M, you can easily fit that in if you somehow get rid of Zaitsev's contract.  Parayko is an even better option @ $5.5M with 3 more seasons after this one, although the cost to acquire him would be high given the cap hit and his age at 25.  Pietrangelo is more like a rental+1 so I wouldn't imagine the cost to acquire him would be crazy high.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 08, 2019, 03:08:39 PM
Are KHL players cheap though?

They're stuck in ELCs for at least a year, so yeah. Lindholm, Oz, Rosen, Borgman, and Aaltonen all signed for $925k.

They all had potential bonuses there too but considering their ice-time in depth roles those aren't really attainable.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on January 08, 2019, 03:38:05 PM
Trading for anyone with a term beyond this year is not a real possibility, is it? I don't know why names like Keith and Hamilton would even be mentioned as possible fits in Toronto.

Why isn't it a possibility?  Depends on the term and the cap hit no?  A guy like Pietrangelo has this year and next year on his cap at $6.5M, you can easily fit that in if you somehow get rid of Zaitsev's contract.  Parayko is an even better option @ $5.5M with 3 more seasons after this one, although the cost to acquire him would be high given the cap hit and his age at 25.  Pietrangelo is more like a rental+1 so I wouldn't imagine the cost to acquire him would be crazy high.
https://www.thestar.com/sports/breakaway_blog/2018/12/04/nhl-s--83-million-cap-could-crunch-maple-leafs-in-2019-20.html (https://www.thestar.com/sports/breakaway_blog/2018/12/04/nhl-s--83-million-cap-could-crunch-maple-leafs-in-2019-20.html)
Even with a Zaitsev gone it would be tough to bring in a Pietrangelo or Parayko. An expiring Kronwall or Boumeester type might be, unfortunately, more realistic fit.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 08, 2019, 03:40:15 PM
I'm probably one of Jake's biggest fans on these boards but I'd still probably put Hamilton ahead of him. Even if it's just by a little bit the age difference and handedness make him a decent bit more valuable to me.

Absolutely. I just don't know if I'd put Hamilton above Gardiner and Kapanen+ whatever.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 08, 2019, 03:44:50 PM
Let's not get too carried away here. They're just looking for cheap depth players.

Are KHL players cheap though?

Under 25, they're constrained to ELCs, so yeah at the worst you're getting cheap depth for the Marlies or they cut bait and go back home. I don't think it's likely we're finding the types of players I previously named with the level of scouting and data available to teams now, but if you want to stop gap the seasons between today's roster and the draft picks developing for the future, this is how you do it without spending assets. Just because we're not likely to find a needle mover doesn't mean it's not worth the effort if even on the off chance one turns out.

Player development is not entirely linear, and for our purposes, we really just need one or two hot seasons before spinning them off either into the aether or assets.

It's been reported that overseas free agents have Toronto high on their wishlists.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 08, 2019, 04:11:58 PM
Sure there are exceptions that fall through the cracks, but I'm specifically looking at the Leafs recent history with Ozhiganov, Zaitsev, Rosen and Borgman coming over, none of which move the needle on the defense. Could we get lucky and eventually find one that makes an impact like the players you mentioned above?  Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath that it'll happen this season or next when the Leafs window is wide open to have a run.

Edit: I added Rosen and Borgman whom I completely forgot about.  While I'm not against taking shots in the dark like this, there's a point where you can't just keep handing out contracts to these guys given the Leafs can only have 50 contracts.  Draft and develop your d-men (Lilejegren and Sandin please hurry up) or make a big trade for someone for immediate help.

""You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott

It's a bet on our development program. It's a hedge against the crapshoot that is drafting.

Do we not currently appreciate having Trevor Moore who was an undrafted development camp invite? Do we win the Calder Cup without Calle Rosen and Mason Marchment and the aforementioned Moore? Do good prospects need more good players to play with at every level?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Dappleganger on January 08, 2019, 04:48:30 PM
Alexander Yelesin, Artem Blazhiyevsky, this is like throwing darts against a dart board.  If they're such good defensive prospects why are they undrafted?  Are we going to keep bringing over Zaitsev's of the world in hopes that eventually someone fixes our defense?

Yeah, why in the world should we be spending our copious resources trying to take free shots at landing the next Mark Giordano, or Ed Belfour, or Yanni Gourde, or Martin St. Louis?

The asset cost is nada so why not?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 08, 2019, 05:35:34 PM
I have a funny feeling that Lilypad will be part of some kind of package to bring in a new piece...Rook or Castle am not sure. I like the sound of a hard hitting Defenseman like Alexander Yelesin if available and they Rock, then why not. Sort of what I was talking about the other day. 
You know Scott Stevens was a regarded a very good D Man with a hard edge....people were wondering and always looking for him....except for Lindros....
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 08, 2019, 05:36:11 PM
and glad Dubas is doing what is his paid for (whilst getting out of the office)  ;) ;D
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on January 08, 2019, 08:53:26 PM
https://www.nhl.com/news/maple-leafs-defenseman-morgan-rielly-norris-trophy-tracker/c-303650882?tid=277729400

OK.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 08, 2019, 09:11:45 PM
https://www.nhl.com/news/maple-leafs-defenseman-morgan-rielly-norris-trophy-tracker/c-303650882?tid=277729400

OK.

Quote
But it hasn't been just Rielly's offense that's improved this season. He's plus-26, tied for third in the NHL with Pittsburgh Penguins defenseman Brian Dumoulin behind Calgary Flames forward Elias Lindholm (plus-27) and Calgary defenseman Mark Giordano (plus-30), after he had a negative rating each of his first five NHL seasons.

My god... the absolute worst thing about +/- is how every hockey writer acts like it's completely a measure of defensive ability. Here are Rielly's 5-on-5 on-ice goals for and goals against per 60 rates for his entire career:

Season       GF/60   GA/60   GF%
2013-142.542.9246.46
2014-152.022.4844.90
2015-161.912.8740.00
2016-172.293.1542.15
2017-182.642.6452.10
2018-194.672.6264.04

So yeah, Rielly's first positive +/- of his career is pretty much entirely because of his offensive improvement.

All of his different shots against numbers are also at career-worst levels, and this is the first season of his career where he's starting the majority of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Media people, read a book or something.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frank E on January 08, 2019, 09:19:09 PM
I'm with you Carlton, and I think Nik eluded to it the other day, but even just to my eye test Rielly hasn't yet shown the elite stuff in the defensive zone.  Your math above suggests same.

I get that the Norris isn't usually about the best all around defenseman, it's more about the point producing part of the job.  I guess I'm surprised that given all the new statistical data that the NHL award voting people haven't really starting making the Norris about being a great well rounded defense guy. 
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 08, 2019, 09:55:54 PM
The only difference I see in Riellys game this season is that hes more confident attacking low in the zone to cause odd-man advantages as he did in the WHL. Everything else has been largely the same.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 08, 2019, 10:41:54 PM
And Andersen leads their Vezina tracker FWIW.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on January 09, 2019, 04:43:57 AM
I guess I'm surprised that given all the new statistical data that the NHL award voting people haven't really starting making the Norris about being a great well rounded defense guy.

Much the way the Hart hasn't become a well rounded offense guy trophy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 10, 2019, 11:29:04 AM

CapFriendly knows which market's clicks keeps the lights on.

And I know where to go for a laugh:
https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/peter-chiarelli/trades
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 10, 2019, 01:30:40 PM

This shows pretty clearly how reliant we've been on Andersen (and how he has risen to the challenge).

The Leafs, despite what we see/choose to remember, haven't been terribad defensively in front of Andersen (above league average, really), but he has certainly elevated what the team has done in front of them.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 11, 2019, 01:50:37 PM

Double shifting Matthews is a valid solution. On unit 1, he's not the primary carrier and he's just a stationary weapon. On unit 2, he is integral to the attack, but still not the primary carrier.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Coco-puffs on January 11, 2019, 02:30:08 PM

Double shifting Matthews is a valid solution. On unit 1, he's not the primary carrier and he's just a stationary weapon. On unit 2, he is integral to the attack, but still not the primary carrier.

I think thats why anyone complaining about Kappy being on PP1 shouldn't worry too much.  He's not going to play a whole shift with it very often IMO.  Let Matthews play 80-90 seconds of each PP, time with both units.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 11, 2019, 02:46:39 PM
I mean, it would help if they got more than 1 frickin PP chance a game to try things out.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 11, 2019, 03:33:06 PM
I mean, it would help if they got more than 1 frickin PP chance a game to try things out.

You got that right podner.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 11, 2019, 04:52:10 PM


I think thats why anyone complaining about Kappy being on PP1 shouldn't worry too much.  He's not going to play a whole shift with it very often IMO.  Let Matthews play 80-90 seconds of each PP, time with both units.
O'Dog was talking with Ray Ferraro about Kappy and the PP and they both said maybe the reason Babs isn't using him there is because he doesn't have the capabilities for it. His game is all about speed and that's something you really don't use on a PP. They both said the PP is a total different animal where you have to be thinking at least one move ahead. Ferraro said he can't put into words what the difference is compared to regular play but said it's a lot different and some guys, no matter how talented, just aren't good at it. They didn't suggest Kappy isn't one of them but that could be the reason Babs doesn't use him. On the PK however, speed is a bonus. Makes sense. I'm ok with him not getting too much of a look ir having too much success. Would like to keep him at a reasonable contract.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 12, 2019, 03:22:06 AM
What Babcock wants out of his players:  the win against New Jeraey Thursday night was demonstration enough on obviously what he means.  The Leafs had their best possession game of the season at nearly 65%.

Note:  This article was written before the Devils-Leafs tilt.

Babcock:
Quote
Well, I like lots of things about us, head coach Mike Babcock says. I like our people, I like how bad we want to be good, I like our leadership, I like our depth. Sometimes I dont like our details. I think we got to to be a way heavier team. Being heavy isnt getting on a scale and measuring yourself: its a state of mind.

Its heavy on offence. Its having the puck, its getting the puck back all the time, its checking the puck, its putting your work in front of your skill, its being determined offensively, instead of coming down and having a rush and being one and done. Its multiple-shot shifts, its having some jam And so I think we can do a better job there, and I think we can continually get better defensively so we are way better offensively. So we have a lot of work to do.

Tavares:
Quote
I think that feeling going into games that you can just kill another teams will to win, says Tavares, when asked what he wants to see between now and seasons end. And just knowing that you just feel that when (the Leafs) come into your building, you just know what a tough night its going to be. Even if you play your best, you know the odds are still probably against you, where we just have the ability to kind of take games over that way, and generate that momentum. Its hard to do that on a consistent basis.


https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/opinion/2019/01/05/the-half-glass-is-full-but-the-maple-leafs-feel-theres-more-to-prove-in-the-stretch-run.html
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 12, 2019, 11:06:11 PM

Sorry not sorry.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 13, 2019, 02:12:05 PM
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: TML fan on January 13, 2019, 02:18:06 PM
Maybe one day Holl will even get into a game.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 13, 2019, 04:16:14 PM
I can see Rosen getting the call this year. From all accounts he's having a good year and had an excellent playoff last year.
I think if Lilypad gets back and plays well he still may get a shot up here this year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on January 14, 2019, 09:35:52 AM
Is there even a downside in trying Rosen over Zaitsev at this point?

I can see Rosen getting the call this year. From all accounts he's having a good year and had an excellent playoff last year.
I think if Lilypad gets back and plays well he still may get a shot up here this year.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 14, 2019, 10:09:58 AM
Is there even a downside in trying Rosen over Zaitsev at this point?

Stephen Burtch has been chatting about Zaitsev lately:

The defensive component of Evolving Hockey's GAR model paints a positive picture of Zaitsev's contributions. The model also shows that Zaitsev is heavily skewed defensive, Rielly is heavily skewed offensive, and Gardiner is generally balanced.

Gardiner also had some glowing observations about his partner's defensive capabilities over on The Athletic (https://theathletic.com/764504/2019/01/13/nikita-zaitsev-has-had-a-strange-year-so-far-for-the-maple-leafs/) recently. As a pair, 51-22 has improved as the season wears on (given that they were bordering on trash earlier, that's not a high hurdle). Zaitsev is the Zach Hyman of the D corps, and Babcock loves him as such.

I can see Hyman's value with the eyeballs and on the shot stats, but it's harder to come across with Zaitsev. I see he has a lot of tools that should lead to being a good defenseman (fantastic, fantastic skater), and I know he's being instructed to play a very specifically simplified game which probably colours the results.

It's pretty hard to use the eyes to gauge defense because the brain gravitates towards remembering and thus emphasizing goals (either for or against) and discarding the many other little plays off the puck that aren't directly statted. Skating routes to shade off an attack long enough for a teammate to engage a clean takeaway, for example -- teammate gets the credit on the statsheet, but it wouldn't have been possible without that 'assist'. I can't remember specific instances of Zaitsev doing this, but Gardiner certainly does, as well as Hainsey.

As for the actual question posed, Rosen is more Rielly than Zaitsev, and putting him in a position of disadvantage (weak-side) might nullify whatever offensive contribution he adds over Zaitsev.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 14, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
I once saw someone call Stephen Burtch the Seth Abramson of Hockey Twitter and my life has never quite been the same since then.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 14, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
I once saw someone call Stephen Burtch the Seth Abramson of Hockey Twitter and my life has never quite been the same since then.

I'm betting he has a lot of blue yarn walls.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 14, 2019, 10:24:25 AM
I once saw someone call Stephen Burtch the Seth Abramson of Hockey Twitter and my life has never quite been the same since then.

I'm betting he has a lot of blue yarn walls.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ghrdSTC66MA/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 14, 2019, 11:03:39 AM
Perusing the GAR model (https://evolving-hockey.com) is also fun to see how Gardiner has been the best Leaf defenseman for the past 3 years and it's not even particularly close. Rielly this year is buoyed significantly by his offense and is the best offensive season ever for a Leafs defenseman.

2016-2019 (so far)
PlayerGoals Above Replacement
Victor Hedman42.2
Mark Giordano39.5
Brett Pesce35
Erik Karlsson34.6
Jared Spurgeon34
John Klingberg34
Jake Gardiner33.3
Colton Parayko30.9
John Carlson30.1
Alex Pietrangelo29.4
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 14, 2019, 01:32:54 PM
Perusing the GAR model (https://evolving-hockey.com) is also fun to see how Gardiner has been the best Leaf defenseman for the past 3 years and it's not even particularly close. Rielly this year is buoyed significantly by his offense and is the best offensive season ever for a Leafs defenseman.

2016-2019 (so far)
PlayerGoals Above Replacement
Victor Hedman42.2
Mark Giordano39.5
Brett Pesce35
Erik Karlsson34.6
Jared Spurgeon34
John Klingberg34
Jake Gardiner33.3
Colton Parayko30.9
John Carlson30.1
Alex Pietrangelo29.4

Leafs fans that complain about Gardiner really have no idea how bad the Leafs defense would be without him in the lineup.  Having Jake out of this current group and trying to plug in a Marincin or Holl or something like Rosen would be a disaster waiting to happen.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on January 14, 2019, 02:27:04 PM
Perusing the GAR model (https://evolving-hockey.com) is also fun to see how Gardiner has been the best Leaf defenseman for the past 3 years and it's not even particularly close. Rielly this year is buoyed significantly by his offense and is the best offensive season ever for a Leafs defenseman.

2016-2019 (so far)
PlayerGoals Above Replacement
Victor Hedman42.2
Mark Giordano39.5
Brett Pesce35
Erik Karlsson34.6
Jared Spurgeon34
John Klingberg34
Jake Gardiner33.3
Colton Parayko30.9
John Carlson30.1
Alex Pietrangelo29.4

I don't know how this works but a metric that ranks Alex Tuch, Nate Schmidt and Leon Draisatl (among many others) this year over Connor McDavid seems a little fishy:

https://evolving-hockey.com/

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 14, 2019, 02:49:36 PM
Perusing the GAR model (https://evolving-hockey.com) is also fun to see how Gardiner has been the best Leaf defenseman for the past 3 years and it's not even particularly close. Rielly this year is buoyed significantly by his offense and is the best offensive season ever for a Leafs defenseman.

2016-2019 (so far)
PlayerGoals Above Replacement
Victor Hedman42.2
Mark Giordano39.5
Brett Pesce35
Erik Karlsson34.6
Jared Spurgeon34
John Klingberg34
Jake Gardiner33.3
Colton Parayko30.9
John Carlson30.1
Alex Pietrangelo29.4

I don't know how this works but a metric that ranks Alex Tuch, Nate Schmidt and Leon Draisatl (among many others) this year over Connor McDavid seems a little fishy:

https://evolving-hockey.com/

He's getting a lot of points, but this model measures impact across several elements of the game that contribute to goals.

If you grab the last 3 seasons combined (2016-2019) rather than just this current incomplete season, McDavid is sitting pretty at 62 GAR, nearly 20 pts higher than the next batch of awesome players (Pastrnak, Stone, Kucherov).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 14, 2019, 04:57:22 PM

Leafs fans that complain about Gardiner really have no idea how bad the Leafs defense would be without him in the lineup.  Having Jake out of this current group and trying to plug in a Marincin or Holl or something like Rosen would be a disaster waiting to happen.
We complain because from a pure defensive view he's not very good. Too many mistakes. We're not asking for a plug to take his spot. We need an upgrade in his spot because he's not good enough defensively to get the minutes he does. We all know that the Leafs aren't going to pay him whatever he'll get on the open market either so he becomes an own rental or we move him at the deadline.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 14, 2019, 05:15:43 PM

Leafs fans that complain about Gardiner really have no idea how bad the Leafs defense would be without him in the lineup.  Having Jake out of this current group and trying to plug in a Marincin or Holl or something like Rosen would be a disaster waiting to happen.
We complain because from a pure defensive view he's not very good. Too many mistakes. We're not asking for a plug to take his spot. We need an upgrade in his spot because he's not good enough defensively to get the minutes he does. We all know that the Leafs aren't going to pay him whatever he'll get on the open market either so he becomes an own rental or we move him at the deadline.
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.  I could see Gardiner flourishing on another team when he's paired with someone good.

Gardiner won't be back next year  so just enjoy his offense and hope he plays well in the playoffs because next season it's a whole new ball game on the back end. Hopefully Dermott can take those Gardiner minutes, but they'll need upgrades on the right side to see any substantial overall improvement.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 14, 2019, 05:53:06 PM
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.

And for a team that, in general, does a piss poor job of providing support for their defensemen most nights. A lot of Gardiner's poor plays come in situations where he doesn't have a good, easy outlet for the puck. If the team played a more responsible style - as in, if a forward or two stayed in the defensive zone when the puck was there, instead of everyone blowing the zone for a stretch pass, or one of them coming down deeper into the defensive zone to help alleviate the pressure from the opposition's forecheck - you'd see a lot of Gardiner's issues disappear. And this isn't a Gardiner specific issue. This is something that's true for almost every blue liner in the league.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 14, 2019, 06:34:56 PM
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.

And for a team that, in general, does a piss poor job of providing support for their defensemen most nights. A lot of Gardiner's poor plays come in situations where he doesn't have a good, easy outlet for the puck. If the team played a more responsible style - as in, if a forward or two stayed in the defensive zone when the puck was there, instead of everyone blowing the zone for a stretch pass, or one of them coming down deeper into the defensive zone to help alleviate the pressure from the opposition's forecheck - you'd see a lot of Gardiner's issues disappear. And this isn't a Gardiner specific issue. This is something that's true for almost every blue liner in the league.
People that think subtracting Gardiner off the Leafs immediately improves the defense are misguided. The major issue with the defense is the entire right side, it's why opposition teams target that side again and again.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Frycer14 on January 14, 2019, 06:47:36 PM
I don't know if I'm going to do this justice, but here's my take: when a forward makes a high-skill play in the offensive zone, and the pass gets deflected, or hits a skate, or whatever, nobody really bats an eyelid. The play turns into backcheck, and the game continues without a great deal of commentary.

When a defenceman makes a high-skill play to maintain possession via skating the puck out, or a transition pass under pressure, etc, and it fails, and ends up as a shot on goal or a chance to score, the player is pilloried. But for the other 19 out of 20 times it's done successfully, it translates into possession, potentially a rush up ice, and all those good things. Gardiner makes the high skill play happen routinely enough that it's worth the tradeoff for the occasional giveaway, because the net effect is overwhelmingly positive. It's the nature of the position that makes mistakes overly visible, and unrepresentative of the overall positives.

Sure, we could have him change his game to an "off the glass and out" style, and he'd rarely be blamed directly for chances against, but we'd also be giving up a huge amount of offence by turning the puck over outside the zone consistently. 

Like it or not, if Gards makes it to free agency, someone is going to open their wallet, big time.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 14, 2019, 11:35:43 PM
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.

And for a team that, in general, does a piss poor job of providing support for their defensemen most nights. A lot of Gardiner's poor plays come in situations where he doesn't have a good, easy outlet for the puck. If the team played a more responsible style - as in, if a forward or two stayed in the defensive zone when the puck was there, instead of everyone blowing the zone for a stretch pass, or one of them coming down deeper into the defensive zone to help alleviate the pressure from the opposition's forecheck - you'd see a lot of Gardiner's issues disappear. And this isn't a Gardiner specific issue. This is something that's true for almost every blue liner in the league.

Fair enough, but they utilize the stretch pass play precisely because Rielly and Gardiner have the skill to pull it off routinely.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: OldTimeHockey on January 15, 2019, 05:58:03 AM
I don't know if I'm going to do this justice, but here's my take: when a forward makes a high-skill play in the offensive zone, and the pass gets deflected, or hits a skate, or whatever, nobody really bats an eyelid. The play turns into backcheck, and the game continues without a great deal of commentary.

When a defenceman makes a high-skill play to maintain possession via skating the puck out, or a transition pass under pressure, etc, and it fails, and ends up as a shot on goal or a chance to score, the player is pilloried. But for the other 19 out of 20 times it's done successfully, it translates into possession, potentially a rush up ice, and all those good things. Gardiner makes the high skill play happen routinely enough that it's worth the tradeoff for the occasional giveaway, because the net effect is overwhelmingly positive. It's the nature of the position that makes mistakes overly visible, and unrepresentative of the overall positives.

Sure, we could have him change his game to an "off the glass and out" style, and he'd rarely be blamed directly for chances against, but we'd also be giving up a huge amount of offence by turning the puck over outside the zone consistently. 


I'd be interested to find out how often those great plays lead to leaf goals and how often his screw ups lead to goals against.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on January 15, 2019, 06:36:31 AM
Maybe one day Holl will even get into a game.

Really would have been nice to see him alternating with Oz.  We could have developed them both at the same time that way ...
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 15, 2019, 07:06:48 AM
Gardiner's Instagram full of hate and vitriol after last night from the same great "fans" who think it's productive to boo your own players on the ice. No wonder we can't have nice things, our fan base can be so clueless at times.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 15, 2019, 09:39:14 AM

This is almost impressive now.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Arn on January 15, 2019, 10:26:53 AM

This is almost impressive now.

Yeah. But what's his +/-
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 15, 2019, 10:32:33 AM
Yeah. But what's his +/-

You know I actually thought it was really good because I know Gardiner's is super high, but he's only a +1. Gardiner's a +18. They've been defence partners literally every game this season.

edit: No I'm not all of a sudden saying +/- is a great stat
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: sickbeast on January 15, 2019, 10:39:10 AM
I don't think Zaitsev or Gardiner for that matter are as bad as people say.  We're all human.  Gardiner did look bad on that one goal but so what.  He's a good player.  There is always the concern with him that in the playoffs he will choke but we will see.  Zaitsev seems like a smooth skater and a decent passer to me.  I guess with him he just didn't pan out the way they wanted him to and now he's grossly overpaid.  But he's not a "bad" player IMO.  He's just not playing up to his contract value.  If he's the worst contract we've got we're doing well IMO.  A lot of teams have a few albatross contracts on the books I am sure.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 15, 2019, 10:49:16 AM
I don't think Zaitsev or Gardiner for that matter are as bad as people say.  We're all human.  Gardiner did look bad on that one goal but so what.  He's a good player.  There is always the concern with him that in the playoffs he will choke but we will see.  Zaitsev seems like a smooth skater and a decent passer to me.  I guess with him he just didn't pan out the way they wanted him to and now he's grossly overpaid.  But he's not a "bad" player IMO.  He's just not playing up to his contract value.  If he's the worst contract we've got we're doing well IMO.  A lot of teams have a few albatross contracts on the books I am sure.

The problem is with our cap structure we really can't afford an albatross contract as much as some teams can. We've also got Marleau on the books for another year and regardless of great of a person he is he's nowhere near a $6.25mil player anymore. So those two combined are going to take up $10.75mil of cap space next season and they're both average to below-average players. Without one of those two moving our defence is only going to get worse next season, there's really no doubt about that. Dubas really has his plate full this offseason with trying to maneuver around that situation and trying to re-sign Matthews and Marner too
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 15, 2019, 11:05:34 AM
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 15, 2019, 02:14:57 PM
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Well he can if you have a Dermott type contract who can play up. Other then that, no. Like Jake, I think he's a decent defender but not good enough for this team to have a chance. And to be fair to Gardiner, he's been pretty bad lately, I think Babs should try both with other D men. Why not put him with Hainsey, Oz for a bit. Hell put Reilly on the right side. You never know. We do know that the chemistry just isn't there with 22 and 51 so Babs needs to stop beating that dead horse. It could change their games around. Maybe it's a Holl that works with Gardiner, who knows? I would be trying every combo and not for a shift or 2 to see what happens.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 15, 2019, 02:30:37 PM
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Well he can if you have a Dermott type contract who can play up. Other then that, no. Like Jake, I think he's a decent defender but not good enough for this team to have a chance. And to be fair to Gardiner, he's been pretty bad lately, I think Babs should try both with other D men. Why not put him with Hainsey, Oz for a bit. Hell put Reilly on the right side. You never know. We do know that the chemistry just isn't there with 22 and 51 so Babs needs to stop beating that dead horse. It could change their games around. Maybe it's a Holl that works with Gardiner, who knows? I would be trying every combo and not for a shift or 2 to see what happens.

I don't think Holl has gotten a fair shot at all.   Try the Minnesota connection for a while and see if it's workable.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 15, 2019, 03:03:38 PM
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Well he can if you have a Dermott type contract who can play up. Other then that, no. Like Jake, I think he's a decent defender but not good enough for this team to have a chance. And to be fair to Gardiner, he's been pretty bad lately, I think Babs should try both with other D men. Why not put him with Hainsey, Oz for a bit. Hell put Reilly on the right side. You never know. We do know that the chemistry just isn't there with 22 and 51 so Babs needs to stop beating that dead horse. It could change their games around. Maybe it's a Holl that works with Gardiner, who knows? I would be trying every combo and not for a shift or 2 to see what happens.

I don't think Holl has gotten a fair shot at all.   Try the Minnesota connection for a while and see if it's workable.
Totally agree with that. Why even have him here if you arent going to play him. Clearly though Babs needs to change it up to try and help Gardiner and Zaitsev as well as everyone else.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 15, 2019, 08:12:31 PM
Matthews-Tavares-Marner
Kapanen-Nylander-Johnson
Hyman-Kadri-Brown
Marleau-Gauthier-Lindholm
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2019, 11:06:58 AM

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on January 16, 2019, 11:21:28 AM

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.

I'd even try Marincin over Zaitsev at this point.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on January 16, 2019, 11:23:20 AM

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.
I like those lines. It's time to get some mojo back.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2019, 11:39:12 AM

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.
I like those lines. It's time to get some mojo back.

I like the look of the top 2 lines.  Hopefully Matthews/Nylander get their mojo back.  I'm not worried about the Tavares line at all, you can put anyone with Tavares/Marner and it'll work and Johnsson is better than just a plug and hopefully they can find some chemistry together.  Kadri and Marleau with Kapanen also looks like a solid line if Marleau isn't done.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2019, 11:44:28 AM
I like the look of the top 2 lines.  Hopefully Matthews/Nylander get their mojo back.  I'm not worried about the Tavares line at all, you can put anyone with Tavares/Marner and it'll work and Johnsson is better than just a plug and hopefully they can find some chemistry together.  Kadri and Marleau with Kapanen also looks like a solid line if Marleau isn't done.

It wasn't for a super long time but the Johnsson-Tavares-Marner trio has been together before and looked good I thought. 55.3% CF and 75% GF in about 75 minutes. Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen has also played together a little this season and that was probably the best Marleau's looked. So yeah this could very well be the best use of our top-9 forwards
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 16, 2019, 12:25:34 PM
I think the whole thing here is to get Kadri going. I'd put Marner with him and Marleau for a game or so to try and do that. Put JT with Kappy and Hyman and Matthews with Nylander and Johnsson.
For the D pairings...
Zaitsev Reilly
Hainsey/Oz Gardiner
Dermott Holl
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 16, 2019, 12:26:21 PM
I like the look of the top 2 lines.  Hopefully Matthews/Nylander get their mojo back.  I'm not worried about the Tavares line at all, you can put anyone with Tavares/Marner and it'll work and Johnsson is better than just a plug and hopefully they can find some chemistry together.  Kadri and Marleau with Kapanen also looks like a solid line if Marleau isn't done.

It wasn't for a super long time but the Johnsson-Tavares-Marner trio has been together before and looked good I thought. 55.3% CF and 75% GF in about 75 minutes. Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen has also played together a little this season and that was probably the best Marleau's looked. So yeah this could very well be the best use of our top-9 forwards

I agree except I think Marleau won't be helping Kardi break out of his slump.  In truth Patty ought to be on the 4th line but I guess you really can't have 3 lefties there so that means he would have to switch with Lindholm ... or:

Moore-Kadri-Kapanen
Marleau-Lindholm-Brown

It's time for Gauthier to observe games from above and get Lindholm back to center where he belongs.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2019, 12:28:24 PM
I agree except I think Marleau won't be helping Kardi break out of his slump.  In truth Patty ought to be on the 4th line but I guess you really can't have 3 lefties there so that means he would have to switch with Lindholm ... or:

Moore-Kadri-Kapanen
Marleau-Lindholm-Brown

It's time for Gauthier to observe games from above and get Lindholm back to center where he belongs.

I would actually agree with this too. I meant best use of our top-9 using the current guys on the roster.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 16, 2019, 12:30:57 PM
I agree except I think Marleau won't be helping Kardi break out of his slump.  In truth Patty ought to be on the 4th line but I guess you really can't have 3 lefties there so that means he would have to switch with Lindholm ... or:

Moore-Kadri-Kapanen
Marleau-Lindholm-Brown

It's time for Gauthier to observe games from above and get Lindholm back to center where he belongs.

I would actually agree with this too. I meant best use of our top-9 using the current guys on the roster.

10-4.

I doubt whether Babcock would ever put Patty down there but who knows if things get desperate in the 1st round maybe he does.  I like Marleau but he simply isn't contributing enough now to get more than 4th line minutes.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2019, 12:50:40 PM
Leafs working on their defensive coverage at practice today:

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: cabber24 on January 16, 2019, 02:04:40 PM
In the last 10 games:

Leafs have scored 31, scorers: MM=8, JT=6, KK=3, AJ=3, everyone else=11

Somehow Marleau manages to be a -12, next closest forwards at -5.

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 16, 2019, 06:38:34 PM
Patty is a nice guy with great eyebrows, but time to raise his kidz and be a stay at home Dad. Please Patty Man :)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 17, 2019, 05:24:06 AM

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.
I like those lines. It's time to get some mojo back.


Good that Hyman - Matthews - Nylander are back together.  Finally  they can get some of their magic back.  Looking forward to this union again.  It's been too long in waiting.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 17, 2019, 06:07:07 AM
For want of a lack of effort, poor mental focus, and imprecise positional play...all of which are applied to Babcock's interpretation of what it means to play "heavy".

Another glaring example is using the body, or physicality, the way Hyman utilizes his physical play (forechecking style/ in-play positioning in order to effect the play action, etc.). That is why Hyman is onvsidered  one of the best F1 forecheckers in the league.

Quote
This is why coaches in the regular season love Zach Hyman, Andreas Johnsson, Connor Brown, even guys like Par Lindholm... heres a two-on-two battle in the offensive corner here, and Lindholm isnt trying to get open in hopes one of his guys comes out with it and he can get a chance.

The playoffs are coming soon and the team needs to level up:

Quote
In the playoffs...plenty of players are willing to sacrifice personal numbers to not be the guy who cost his team the game, so they worry more about low-risk positioning and not losing battles. You rarely see players on Cup-winning teams flying the zone while reaching for a puck and hoping.


Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 18, 2019, 01:41:21 AM
Woo-hoo!

Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2019, 12:48:25 PM
I know a lot of it was due to Andersen being injured, but the Leafs have gotten 15 games out of the backup position already this season, last year total there was only 19 games (18 for McBackup and 1 for Pickard).  Well on their way to getting 20+ games for the backup and more rest for Freddie.

Edit: 14 decisions, 8-5-1 with non Freddie goalies.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 18, 2019, 12:58:46 PM
I know a lot of it was due to Andersen being injured, but the Leafs have gotten 15 games out of the backup position already this season, last year total there was only 19 games (18 for McBackup and 1 for Pickard).  Well on their way to getting 20+ games for the backup and more rest for Freddie.

Edit: 14 decisions, 8-5-1 with non Freddie goalies.

Including tonight's game, there's only 7 more B2B starts on the schedule for Sparks. If Andersen starts every other game he'll still end up with 61 starts. Hopefully Babcock reconsiders Sparks' starting schedule in the second half (which he has talked about potentially doing) but Andersen will still likely have a very heavy workload.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2019, 01:31:17 PM
I know a lot of it was due to Andersen being injured, but the Leafs have gotten 15 games out of the backup position already this season, last year total there was only 19 games (18 for McBackup and 1 for Pickard).  Well on their way to getting 20+ games for the backup and more rest for Freddie.

Edit: 14 decisions, 8-5-1 with non Freddie goalies.

Including tonight's game, there's only 7 more B2B starts on the schedule for Sparks. If Andersen starts every other game he'll still end up with 61 starts. Hopefully Babcock reconsiders Sparks' starting schedule in the second half (which he has talked about potentially doing) but Andersen will still likely have a very heavy workload.

Ideally you'd like to see backup starts get into the mid 20s so Andersen only plays 55-57 games.  We'll see.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2019, 06:56:50 PM
Just for fun I looked up the Leafs from 2015/2016 the year Leafs finished dead last and won the lottery. Parenteau led the team in goals with 20, Kadri led in points with 45.

Marner already has 60 points this season in 46 games. 

Holy crap were the Leafs ever bad, how did we watch that team?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: AvroArrow on January 18, 2019, 09:31:27 PM
If like to see Marner with Matthews and Nylander with Tavares.  Try to get both those guys ( Matthews and Nylander) going.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 18, 2019, 09:51:56 PM
Just for fun I looked up the Leafs from 2015/2016 the year Leafs finished dead last and won the lottery. Parenteau led the team in goals with 20, Kadri led in points with 45.

Marner already has 60 points this season in 46 games. 

Holy crap were the Leafs ever bad, how did we watch that team?
And when we crap the bed the Leafs are terrible. People forget how bad this team really was.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 18, 2019, 11:36:42 PM
I know a lot of it was due to Andersen being injured, but the Leafs have gotten 15 games out of the backup position already this season, last year total there was only 19 games (18 for McBackup and 1 for Pickard).  Well on their way to getting 20+ games for the backup and more rest for Freddie.

Edit: 14 decisions, 8-5-1 with non Freddie goalies.

Including tonight's game, there's only 7 more B2B starts on the schedule for Sparks. If Andersen starts every other game he'll still end up with 61 starts. Hopefully Babcock reconsiders Sparks' starting schedule in the second half (which he has talked about potentially doing) but Andersen will still likely have a very heavy workload.

Ideally you'd like to see backup starts get into the mid 20s so Andersen only plays 55-57 games.  We'll see.

I hear a lot of talk such as this, but is there anything to back this up?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 19, 2019, 08:27:49 AM
I know a lot of it was due to Andersen being injured, but the Leafs have gotten 15 games out of the backup position already this season, last year total there was only 19 games (18 for McBackup and 1 for Pickard).  Well on their way to getting 20+ games for the backup and more rest for Freddie.

Edit: 14 decisions, 8-5-1 with non Freddie goalies.

Including tonight's game, there's only 7 more B2B starts on the schedule for Sparks. If Andersen starts every other game he'll still end up with 61 starts. Hopefully Babcock reconsiders Sparks' starting schedule in the second half (which he has talked about potentially doing) but Andersen will still likely have a very heavy workload.

Ideally you'd like to see backup starts get into the mid 20s so Andersen only plays 55-57 games.  We'll see.

I hear a lot of talk such as this, but is there anything to back this up?
I don't have the stats in front of me but I'm pretty sure the last few Cup winners didn't have goalies playing 60+ regular season games
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: princedpw on January 19, 2019, 09:17:36 AM
If like to see Marner with Matthews and Nylander with Tavares.  Try to get both those guys ( Matthews and Nylander) going.

I was thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 19, 2019, 09:24:56 AM
2018: Washington: Braden Holtby (50)Philipp Grubauer (31)
2017: Pittsburgh: Matt Murray (49)Marc-Andre Fleury (38)
2016: Pittsburgh: Marc-Andre Fleury (58)Matt Murray (13)Jeff Zatkoff (14)
2015: Chicago: Corey Crawford (57)Scott Darling (14)Antti Raanta (14)
2014: LA: Jonathan Quick (49)Martin Jones (19)Ben Scrivens (19)
2013: Chicago: Corey Crawford (30)Ray Emery (21)
2012: LA: Jonathan Quick (69)Jonathan Bernier (16)
2011: Boston: Tim Thomas (57)Tuukka Rask (29)
2010: Chicago: Cristobal Huet (48)Antti Niemi (39)
2009: Pittsburgh: Marc-Andre Fleury (62)Dany Sabourin (19)
2008: Detroit: Chris Osgood   (43)Dominik Hasek (41)
2007: Anaheim: Jean-Sebastien Giguere (56)Ilya Bryzgalov (27)
2006: Carolina: Martin Gerber (60)Cam Ward (28)
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 19, 2019, 09:30:35 AM
Average is 55 games (excluding 2013, Chicago).
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 19, 2019, 11:48:28 AM
Average is 55 games (excluding 2013, Chicago).

55 is the average a lot of teams are striving for according to Cat Silverman.
Babcock is one of the holdouts here.

As Bullfrog aptly demonstrated, the last handful of Cup winners did it with split duties, even during their specific runs. A game-warm average backup is better than a super cold good backup.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bates on January 19, 2019, 11:54:58 AM
Average is 55 games (excluding 2013, Chicago).

55 is the average a lot of teams are striving for according to Cat Silverman.
Babcock is one of the holdouts here.

As Bullfrog aptly demonstrated, the last handful of Cup winners did it with split duties, even during their specific runs. A game-warm average backup is better than a super cold good backup.

Weren't many of those splits the result of injuries or bad play rather than an actual plan? Same result but not because of philosophy.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bullfrog on January 19, 2019, 03:04:53 PM
Weren't many of those splits the result of injuries or bad play rather than an actual plan? Same result but not because of philosophy.

I think that's a good point. I just posted the numbers, but it'd be interesting to see a more in-depth look at the numbers. Some of them are definitely the result of injury.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: bustaheims on January 19, 2019, 03:29:52 PM
Weren't many of those splits the result of injuries or bad play rather than an actual plan? Same result but not because of philosophy.

Id say the reasoning is largely immaterial. Regardless of why, there evidence strongly suggests that ~55 starts is roughly what you should be asking from your starting goalie.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Zee on January 19, 2019, 04:20:35 PM
Weren't many of those splits the result of injuries or bad play rather than an actual plan? Same result but not because of philosophy.

Id say the reasoning is largely immaterial. Regardless of why, there evidence strongly suggests that ~55 starts is roughly what you should be asking from your starting goalie.
Yeah it doesn't matter why they started under 60 games, there's evidence to suggest the fewer regular season games you play,the better it might be for a long playoff run for a goalie. You would think with all the sports science stuff and trying to get peak performance from athletes they would be more strict in getting guys more rest. NBA seems to be ahead of the curve here as they regularly sit out players during the regular season even if they're not injured.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Guilt Trip on January 19, 2019, 04:47:36 PM
I think NHL teams do it to an extent with their maintenance days where guys don't practice. We tend to forget that these guys are on the ice almost every day and for a goalie facing shots all the time, it can get not only physically, but mentally tiring as well.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: herman on January 24, 2019, 11:43:45 AM
Something I think I'll be keeping an eye out for is Nikita Zaitsev: Unleashed.

This isn't anything to do with Gardiner being out at the moment nor does it have anything to do with the goal he just scored last night (although that is the result). This looks like Zaitsev is now being given the green light to play his game on the offensive side now, after getting the matchup/PK treatment for 1.5 seasons similar to how Reilly was swamped with defensive assignments when Babcock came aboard, and how Dermott (and now Liljegren) received the same on the Marlies.

Lately, Zaitsev has looked more like himself out there with the puck. Dude can skate well, even if it's not zipzip fast, and dude can really shoot the puck (KHL highlights). There are still a couple of hand grenade passes once in awhile for icings (that has a lot to do with the forwards not facing the defense when they stretch out, limiting options), but I've started to see him carrying it at times and charging a low-high pass back down into the dirty ice for good chances.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on January 24, 2019, 11:54:08 AM
Something I think I'll be keeping an eye out for is Nikita Zaitsev: Unleashed.

This isn't anything to do with Gardiner being out at the moment nor does it have anything to do with the goal he just scored last night (although that is the result). This looks like Zaitsev is now being given the green light to play his game on the offensive side now, after getting the matchup/PK treatment for 1.5 seasons similar to how Reilly was swamped with defensive assignments when Babcock came aboard, and how Dermott (and now Liljegren) received the same on the Marlies.

Lately, Zaitsev has looked more like himself out there with the puck. Dude can skate well, even if it's not zipzip fast, and dude can really shoot the puck (KHL highlights). There are still a couple of hand grenade passes once in awhile for icings (that has a lot to do with the forwards not facing the defense when they stretch out, limiting options), but I've started to see him carrying it at times and charging a low-high pass back down into the dirty ice for good chances.

I do feel like that was something noted as a positive in his game when he started here with the team.  It got curbed quite a bit as the team transitioned into doing more stretch passes rather than carrying the puck up the ice.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Highlander on January 24, 2019, 12:30:22 PM
Ya Z looks a lot more comfortable recently and boy do we need all our D to step it up. Last night was a very good effort all round.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bender on January 24, 2019, 01:47:35 PM
Ya Z looks a lot more comfortable recently and boy do we need all our D to step it up. Last night was a very good effort all round.

Just to throw some water on that, I couldn't believe how bad his coverage was on Backstrom. He got pseudo body position on him but didn't keep his stick in the lane or take away Backstrom's stick/ability to shoot. I saw that and though you couldn't have been a bit heavier on that play?
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on January 26, 2019, 09:43:24 AM
So the Leafs don't play for 9 days but then play 3 games in 4 nights when coming back.  What is the point of having an off week if you just cram the schedule right after.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bates on January 26, 2019, 10:03:47 AM
So the Leafs don't play for 9 days but then play 3 games in 4 nights when coming back.  What is the point of having an off week if you just cram the schedule right after.

My rec league does a better job of scheduling than the NHL.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on January 26, 2019, 10:16:07 AM
So the Leafs don't play for 9 days but then play 3 games in 4 nights when coming back.  What is the point of having an off week if you just cram the schedule right after.

My rec league does a better job of scheduling than the NHL.

The big saving grace might be that they play Detroit - Pittsburgh - Anaheim.  Pittsburgh is also playing a back to back.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Bates on January 26, 2019, 10:43:25 AM
So the Leafs don't play for 9 days but then play 3 games in 4 nights when coming back.  What is the point of having an off week if you just cram the schedule right after.

My rec league does a better job of scheduling than the NHL.

The big saving grace might be that they play Detroit - Pittsburgh - Anaheim.  Pittsburgh is also playing a back to back.

I just don't understand at tgi6s time when science is so important why teams would ever play without appropriate rest??
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: L K on January 26, 2019, 11:03:29 AM
So the Leafs don't play for 9 days but then play 3 games in 4 nights when coming back.  What is the point of having an off week if you just cram the schedule right after.

My rec league does a better job of scheduling than the NHL.

The big saving grace might be that they play Detroit - Pittsburgh - Anaheim.  Pittsburgh is also playing a back to back.

I just don't understand at tgi6s time when science is so important why teams would ever play without appropriate rest??

Oh I agree, and I understand that scheduling can be difficult because you are factoring in travel and 31 (soon to be 32 teams) with a lot of different parameters based on division, conference and inter-conference play, arena availability, etc.

But I find it hard to imagine that they could program in something to say "no 3 in 4 nights" and still find a way to make it work.
Title: Re: 2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 26, 2019, 12:23:52 PM

The NHL doesn't just get to decide unilaterally when to hold games. Arenas have other commitments and pretty frequently, the hockey teams aren't the primary tenants.
Title: