TMLfans.ca

Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Marlies & Prospect Talk => Topic started by: herman on June 20, 2018, 04:47:22 PM

Title: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 20, 2018, 04:47:22 PM
Top 25 under 25 (by Sept 15, 2018) should be launching towards the end of July.
Check out last season's thread (http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=4576.0) to see the changes in our pipeline. As I'm posting this in advance of the Draft, this post is malleable.

2018 Eligible:2018's list2017's list
Adam Brooks
Andreas Borgman
Andreas Johnsson
Andrew Nielsen
Auston Matthews
Calle Rosen
Carl Grundstrom
Connor Brown
Connor Carrick
Dakota Joshua
Dmytro Timashov
Eemeli Rasanen
Fedor Gordeev
Filip Kral
Frederik Gauthier
Garret Sparks old
Ian Scott
JD Greenway
Jeremy Bracco
Jesper Lindgren
JJ Piccinich
Jordan Subban
Joseph Woll
Kasimir Kaskisuo
Kasperi Kapanen
Mac Hollowell
Martins Dzierkals
Mason Marchment
Mitch Marner
Morgan Rielly
Nikolai Chebykin
Pierre Engvall
Pontus Holmberg
Rasmus Sandin
Riley Stotts
Ryan McGregor
Ryan O'Connell
Sean Durzi
Semyon Der-Arguchintsev
Semyon Kizimov
Timothy Liljegren
Travis Dermott
Trevor Moore
Vladimir Boblyev
Vladislav Kara
William Nylander
Yegor Korshkov
Zachary Bouthillier
25. Pierre Engvall (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/30/17620398/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-pierre-engvall-nhl-prospects-toronto-marlies-ahl)
24. Jordan Subban (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/31/17623976/maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-jordan-subban-marlies-defenceman)
23. Mason Marchment (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/1/17627880/maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-mason-marchment-marlies-chaotic-good)
22. Dmytro Timashov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/2/17607868/toronto-maple-leafs-dmytro-timashov-2018-top-25-under-25-toronto-marlies-jeremy-bracco)
21. Yegor Korshkov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/3/17641094/2018-top-25-maple-leafs-under-25-21-yegor-korshkov-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-khl-lokomotiv)
20. Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/7/17598140/2018-top-25-under-25-20-semyon-der-arguchintsev-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)
19. Eemeli Rsnen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/8/17627328/2018-top-25-under-25-19-eemeli-rasanen-maple-leafs-prospects-khl-jokerit)
18. Sean Durzi (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/9/17501712/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-2018-sean-durzi-nhl-draft-owen-sound-attack-ohl-prospects)
17. Jeremy Bracco (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/10/17662658/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-jeremy-bracco-toronto-marlies-kitchener-rangers-windsor-spitfires)
16. Adam Brooks (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/13/17651198/2018-t25u25-16-adam-brooks-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-rankings-stats-profiles)
15. Trevor Moore (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/14/17672804/2018-top-25-under-25-15-trevor-moore-has-a-shot-with-the-toronto-maple-leafs-toronto-marlies-lineup)
14. Calle Rosn (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/15/17647780/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-prospects-toronto-marlies-ahl-calder-cup)
13. Carl Grundstrom (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/16/17620120/2018-top-25-under-25-13-carl-grundstrom-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)
12. Rasmus Sandin (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/17/17669044/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-2018-rasmus-sandin-12-nhl-draft-soo-greyhounds)
11. Andreas Borgman (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/20/17628276/2018-top-25-under-25-11-andreas-borgman-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)
10. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/21/17753700/2018-t25u25-10-connor-carrick-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-players-profiles)
9. Connor Brown (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/22/17756740/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-9-connor-brown-toronto-maple-leafs-roster-connor-brown-stats)
8. Andreas Johnsson (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/23/17641250/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-can-andreas-johnsson-win-the-calder-yes-he-can-haters)
7. Timothy Liljegren (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/24/17755520/toronto-maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-timothy-liljegren-7-marlies-prospects)
6. Kasperi Kapanen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/27/17654460/2018-top-25-under-25-rankings-6-kasperi-kapanen-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)
5. Travis Dermott (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/28/17773998/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25-5-travis-dermott-defense-toronto-marlies-prospect-nhl)
4. Morgan Rielly (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/29/17790462/2018-top-25-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-under-25-captain-morgan-rielly-is-4)
T2: Mitch Marner (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/30/17656386/2018-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-mitch-marner-is-2-mitch-marner-analysis-marner-highlights)
T2: William Nylander (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/30/17656300/2018-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-william-nylander-analysis-nylander-highlights-mitch-marner)
1. Auston Matthews (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/31/17791840/toronto-maple-leafs-nhl-top-25-under-25-auston-matthews-prospects)
25. Rinat Valiev (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/7/31/16019424/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-rinat-valiev-toronto-marlies) (traded) | Joseph Woll (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/7/31/16026696/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-joseph-woll-boston-college-hockey-ncaa-hockey)
24. Garret Sparks (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/1/16014774/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-garret-sparks-toronto-marlies)
23. Eemeli Rasanen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/2/16002898/2017-top-25-under-25-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-eemeli-rasanen-2017-maple-leafs-draft-picks)
22. Yegor Korshkov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/3/16026556/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-yegor-korshkov-khl-lokomotiv-yaroslavl)
21. Miro Aaltonen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/4/16026622/2017-top-25-under-25-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-miro-aaltonen-shl-toronto-marlies)
20. Dmytro Timashov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/7/16027108/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-dmytro-timashov-toronto-marlies)
19. Andrew Nielsen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/8/16092366/2017-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-andrew-nielsen-checks-in-at-19)
18. Kerby Rychel (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/9/16105344/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-kerby-rychel-marlies-nhl-top-25) (traded)
17. Calle Rosen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/10/16080714/2017-top-25-under-25-17-calle-rosen-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-free-agent-signing-toronto-marlies)
16. Andreas Borgman (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/11/16024998/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-andreas-borgman-shl-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects)
15. Adam Brooks (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/14/16112568/toronto-maple-leafs-2017-adam-brooks-top-25-under-25)
14. Nikita Soshnikov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/15/16141580/toronto-maple-leafs-2017-top-25-under-25-nikita-soshnikov-toronto-marlies) (traded)
13. Jeremy Bracco (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/16/16027154/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-jeremy-bracco-toronto-marlies-windsor-spitfires)
12. Carl Grundstrom (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/17/16101832/2017-top-25-under-25-12-carl-grundstrom-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-liam-neeson)
11. Andreas Johnsson (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/18/16140488/2017-top-25-under-25-11-andreas-johnsson-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-sniper-ahl-marlies)
10. Travis Dermott (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2017/8/21/16175956/2017-top-25-under-25-what-could-push-10-travis-dermott-into-the-nhl-lineup)
9. Josh Leivo (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/22/16094676/2017-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-josh-leivo-is-back-for-one-last-time-at-9)
8. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/23/16179248/toronto-maple-leafs-2017-top-25-under-25-connor-carrick-checks-in-at-8)
7. Timothy Liljegren (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/24/16136640/2017-top-25-under-25-7-timothy-liljegren-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-2017-nhl-draft-marlies)
6. Connor Brown (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/25/16027464/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-connor-brown-new-contract-2017-18-nhl-season-stats)
5. Kasperi Kapanen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/28/16155890/2017-top-25-under-25-kasperi-kapanen-toronto-marlies-maple-leafs-prospects)
4. Morgan Rielly (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/29/16102030/top-25-under-25-2017-toronto-maple-leafs-morgan-rielly-toronto-maple-leafs-defence)
3. Mitch Marner (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/30/16172258/toronto-maple-leafs-2017-top-25-under-25-mitch-marner-number-3)
2. William Nylander (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/30/16110792/2017-top-25-under-25-2-william-nylander-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-superstar)
1. Auston Matthews (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2017/8/31/16008110/2017-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-auston-matthews-rookie-records-arizona-hockey)


TLN's top 20 (Calder-eligible) prospects
20182017
20. Andrew Nielsen (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/13/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-20-andrew-nielsen/)
19. Mac Hollowell (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/14/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-19-mac-hollowell/)
18. Jordan Subban (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/15/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-18-jordan-subban/)
17. Eemeli Rasanen (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/16/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-17-eemeli-rasanen/)
16. Jesper Lindgren (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/17/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-16-jesper-lindgren/)
15. Filip Kral (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/20/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-15-filip-kral/)
14. Yegor Korshkov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/21/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-14-yegor-korshkov/)
13. Calle Rosen (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/22/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-13-calle-rosen/)
12. Adam Brooks (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/23/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-12-adam-brooks/)
11. Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/24/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-11-semyon-der-arguchintsev/)
10. Trevor Moore (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/27/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-10-trevor-moore/)
9. Pierre Engvall (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/28/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-9-pierre-engvall/)
8. Joseph Woll (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/29/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-8-joseph-woll/)
7. Dymytro Timashov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/30/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-7-dmytro-timashov/)
6. Sean Durzi (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/31/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-6-sean-durzi/)
5. Jeremy Bracco (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/03/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-5-jeremy-bracco/)
4. Rasmus Sandin (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/04/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-4-rasmus-sandin/)
3. Carl Grundstrom (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/05/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-3-carl-grundstrom/)
2. Andreas Johnsson (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/06/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2-andreas-johnsson/)
1. Timothy Liljegren (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/07/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-1-timothy-liljegren/)
20. Nikolai Chebykin (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/16/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-20-nikolai-chebykin/)
19. Vladimir Bobylev/Bobylyov (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/17/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-19-vladimir-bobylyov/)
18. Jesper Lindgren (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/18/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-18-jesper-lindgren/)
17. Justin Holl (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/21/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-17-justin-holl/)
16. JD Greenway (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/22/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-16-james-jd-greenway/)
15. Trevor Moore (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/23/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-15-trevor-moore/)
14. Miro Aaltonen (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/24/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-14-miro-aaltonen/)
13. Calle Rosen (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/25/tln-top-20-prospects-ranking-13-calle-rosen/)
12. Andreas Borgman (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/29/tln-top-prospect-rankings-2017-12-andreas-borgman/)
11. Dmytro Timashov (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/29/tln-top-20-prospects-ranking-2017-11-dmytro-timashov/)
10. Eemeli Rasanen (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/30/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-10-eemeli-rasanen/)
9. Yegor Korshkov (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/08/31/top-20-prospects-ranking-2017-9-yegor-korshkov/)
8. Andreas Johnsson (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/04/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-8-andreas-johnsson/)
7. Joseph Woll (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/05/tln-top-prospect-rankings-2017-7-joseph-woll/)
6. Andrew Nielsen (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/06/tln-top-prospect-rankings-2017-6-andrew-nielsen/)
5. Adam Brooks (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/07/tln-top-prospect-rankings-2017-5-adam-brooks/)
4. Jeremy Bracco (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/08/tln-top-prospect-rankings-2017-4-jeremy-bracco)
3. Carl Grundstrom (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/11/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-2017-3-carl-grundstrom/)
2. Travis Dermott (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/12/tln-top-ten-prospect-rankings-2017-2-travis-dermott/)
1. Timothy Liljegren (https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/13/tln-top-20-prospect-rankings-1-timothy-liljegren/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 20, 2018, 04:49:51 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/06/20/checking-in-on-nikolai-chebykin-2016-seventh-round-pick-set-to-attend-second-leafs-development-camp-after-up-and-down-2017-18-season-ends-in-vhl-championship/

MLHS checks in on Nikolai Chebykin, who probably won't show up on this ranking, but who does bring some insider info on how the Development Camp will be run, starting June 25th.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on June 20, 2018, 06:29:14 PM
OK, I'll play:

1.   Matthews
2.   Marner
3.   Nylander
4.   Rielly
5.   Brown
6.   Dermott
7.   Kapanen
8.   Johnsson
9.   Carrick
10.   Leivo
11.   Liljegren
12.   Borgman
13.   Rosen
14.   Sparks
15.   Aaltonen
16.   Grundstrom
17.   Moore
18.   Brooks
19.   Korshkov
20.   Marchment
21.   Engvall
22.   Bracco
23    Lindgren
24.   Rasanen
25.   Gordeev

We were all talking about this a little bit ago, but this is a pretty iffy bunch after the current NHLers.  Dubas has some work to do here.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 20, 2018, 07:08:18 PM
Im ready to fight about 2, 3.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on June 20, 2018, 08:19:52 PM
Im ready to fight about 2, 3.

Why are you talking to the number three about picking a fight about 2?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on June 20, 2018, 08:47:06 PM
Im ready to fight about 2, 3.

Why are you talking to the number three about picking a fight about 2?

I rank 25 guys, and nerd herman has a problem with a one spot difference in
a 25 guy ranking...seriously.  And on top of that, he's wrong.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 21, 2018, 07:20:19 AM
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/000/043/disaster-girl.jpg)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 21, 2018, 08:04:38 AM
9.   Carrick
10.   Leivo
11.   Liljegren

This is what confused me.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 21, 2018, 09:34:33 AM
So in the interest of drawing fire from Frank's decision-making process (Leivo and Aaltonen are both 25 now), I will also post my list and enjoy the subsequent roast. I'm more of a projected ceiling (and associated probability), rather than who has played NHL minutes type of ranker. I also just plopped this out without looking at anything other than the eligibility list.

1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Johnsson
9. Grundstrom
10. Borgman
11. Carrick
12. Timashov
13. Bracco
14. Rosen
15. Moore
16. Brown
17. Korshkov
18. Engvall
19. Sparks
20. Brooks
21. Dzierkals
22. Marchment
23. Rasanen
24. Nielsen
25. Woll
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 21, 2018, 09:51:12 AM
So in the interest of drawing fire from Frank's decision-making process (Leivo and Aaltonen are both 25 now), I will also post my list and enjoy the subsequent roast. I'm more of a projected ceiling (and associated probability), rather than who has played NHL minutes type of ranker. I also just plopped this out without looking at anything other than the eligibility list.

1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Johnsson
9. Grundstrom
10. Borgman
11. Carrick
12. Timashov
13. Bracco
14. Rosen
15. Moore
16. Brown
17. Korshkov
18. Engvall
19. Sparks
20. Brooks
21. Dzierkals
22. Marchment
23. Rasanen
24. Nielsen
25. Woll

Not a bad list.  Brown is way too low for a guy who can conceivably score 20 goals again, but yeah he's probably maxed out at being the third liner he is now.  Trevor Moore is only 1 year younger and still hasn't made the NHL- do you expect him to be better than a third-liner? 

I can understand having Timashov and Bracco ahead of him because they have higher ceilings (ie, 2nd line)- but I don't think their chances of hitting those ceilings are very high.  I personally wouldn't put them ahead of Brown if, as you state, you also include associated probability- but maybe your probability is a bit rosier than mine.

My list is coming in my next post so you can roast me right back.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 21, 2018, 09:58:36 AM
Not a bad list.  Brown is way too low for a guy who can conceivably score 20 goals again, but yeah he's probably maxed out at being the third liner he is now.  Trevor Moore is only 1 year younger and still hasn't made the NHL- do you expect him to be better than a third-liner? 

I can understand having Timashov and Bracco ahead of him because they have higher ceilings (ie, 2nd line)- but I don't think their chances of hitting those ceilings are very high.  I personally wouldn't put them ahead of Brown if, as you state, you also include associated probability- but maybe your probability is a bit rosier than mine.

My list is coming in my next post so you can roast me right back.

Fair points. I have Moore above Brown because have you seen Moore skate? Granted it's only been against AHL so far, but he's essentially left shot Brown with better puckhandling and much better wheels.

I'm pretty high on both Bracco and Timashov. They're perimeter playmakers (which renders their smaller size less of a factor) and can both really hold the puck in traffic and have outstanding on-ice vision, which I put a good chunk of stock in.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 21, 2018, 10:06:18 AM
My list:

1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Nylander
4. Rielly
5. Dermott
6. Liljegren
7. Kapanen
8. Grundstrom
9. Johnsson
10. Brown
11. Sparks
12. Borgman
13. Carrick
14. Rosen
15. Engvall
16. Bracco
17. Moore
18. Timashov
19. Brooks
20. Marchment
21. Korshkov
22. Rasanen
23. Nielsen
24. Woll
25. Lindgren
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 21, 2018, 10:19:46 AM
Not a bad list.  Brown is way too low for a guy who can conceivably score 20 goals again, but yeah he's probably maxed out at being the third liner he is now.  Trevor Moore is only 1 year younger and still hasn't made the NHL- do you expect him to be better than a third-liner? 

I can understand having Timashov and Bracco ahead of him because they have higher ceilings (ie, 2nd line)- but I don't think their chances of hitting those ceilings are very high.  I personally wouldn't put them ahead of Brown if, as you state, you also include associated probability- but maybe your probability is a bit rosier than mine.

My list is coming in my next post so you can roast me right back.

Fair points. I have Moore above Brown because have you seen Moore skate? Granted it's only been against AHL so far, but he's essentially left shot Brown with better puckhandling and much better wheels.

I'm pretty high on both Bracco and Timashov. They're perimeter playmakers (which renders their smaller size less of a factor) and can both really hold the puck in traffic and have outstanding on-ice vision, which I put a good chunk of stock in.

I could also point out that Brown has VERY high hockey-IQ and a better shot.  He also put up 61 points in the AHL at a much younger age.  Moore hasn't eclipsed 33.  I think Moore's speed will give him a good shot at being on the 4th line and PK duty, but that is still not near Brown's level.

Timashov is only a few months younger than Kapanen and hasn't put up anywhere near Kapanen's level of production.  And Kapanen probably tops out as a 2nd liner.  Bracco is a full year younger, so he still has time to develop, and has actually put up better numbers than Timashov (ppg).  I put the chances of Timashov playing on a 2nd line somewhere very low- Bracco is more likely but at least one more year away from sniffing the NHL.  Hard for me to put them ahead of Brown (or even in the same tier really).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 21, 2018, 10:20:06 AM
My list:

1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Nylander
4. Rielly
5. Dermott
6. Liljegren
7. Kapanen
8. Grundstrom
9. Johnsson
10. Brown
11. Sparks
12. Borgman
13. Carrick
14. Rosen
15. Engvall
16. Bracco
17. Moore
18. Timashov
19. Brooks
20. Marchment
21. Korshkov
22. Rasanen
23. Nielsen
24. Woll
25. Lindgren


I'd nitpick a couple one-for-one swaps (Johnsson over Grundstrom, maybe Liljegren over Dermott, maybe Carrick over Borgman) but other than that solid list.

I'd probably vault Korshkov over the Marlies-5 too and put him right behind Engvall. I don't see anything other than 4th liners in that group and I hope to god Korkshov can turn out better than that.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on June 21, 2018, 10:20:56 AM
9.   Carrick
10.   Leivo
11.   Liljegren

This is what confused me.

Who asked you?

I just figured you put actual NHL roster players as being better right now than not-NHL players.  You'll note that I put him as the #1 not-NHL player.

Next question, please.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 21, 2018, 10:28:05 AM
I just figured you put actual NHL roster players as being better right now than not-NHL players.  You'll note that I put him as the #1 not-NHL player.

I was moreso surprised since I know you're not exactly a Carrick fan. I think it's pretty reasonable to place a 5-6-7 defenceman (and I know in your opinion he's closer to 7) behind a guy with Liljegren's potential. Same goes for a 11-12-13 forward like Leivo.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 21, 2018, 10:28:37 AM
My list:

1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Nylander
4. Rielly
5. Dermott
6. Liljegren
7. Kapanen
8. Grundstrom
9. Johnsson
10. Brown
11. Sparks
12. Borgman
13. Carrick
14. Rosen
15. Engvall
16. Bracco
17. Moore
18. Timashov
19. Brooks
20. Marchment
21. Korshkov
22. Rasanen
23. Nielsen
24. Woll
25. Lindgren


I'd nitpick a couple one-for-one swaps (Johnsson over Grundstrom, maybe Liljegren over Dermott, maybe Carrick over Borgman) but other than that solid list.

I'd probably vault Korshkov over the Marlies-5 too and put him right behind Engvall. I don't see anything other than 4th liners in that group and I hope to god Korkshov can turn out better than that.

Yeah, I actually struggled to decide in those exact spots (Johnsson-Grundstrom especially- but Grundstrom is like 3 years younger!).  Korshkov is a tough one too, as I'd really like him to pan out but he's dealt with so many injuries and coaching changes in the KHL its hard to know if he's actually on the path we'd hope (2nd liner).  I see Brooks and Bracco with capability above a 4th liner.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on June 21, 2018, 10:43:55 AM
I just figured you put actual NHL roster players as being better right now than not-NHL players.  You'll note that I put him as the #1 not-NHL player.

I was moreso surprised since I know you're not exactly a Carrick fan. I think it's pretty reasonable to place a 5-6-7 defenceman (and I know in your opinion he's closer to 7) behind a guy with Liljegren's potential. Same goes for a 11-12-13 forward like Leivo.

Oh fine, you and your clique always trash my opinions anyways, so I guess I should just expect this kind of criticism from you.

Honestly, I think you're right, but I just have trouble ranking guys that high that haven't even really played NHL hockey yet, unless their projected to make the lineup.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 21, 2018, 10:47:37 AM
I could also point out that Brown has VERY high hockey-IQ and a better shot.  He also put up 61 points in the AHL at a much younger age.  Moore hasn't eclipsed 33.  I think Moore's speed will give him a good shot at being on the 4th line and PK duty, but that is still not near Brown's level.

That's a solid point. I like Brown (smart, generally in the right place at the right time), but I don't see him being more than a defensive utility option because of his lack of any other stand out capability. His offense is solely dependent on his linemates' ability to get the puck to him, and he is otherwise a straight-line player. His big AHL season was riding shotgun to William Nylander (who was artificially suppressed into the AHL), wasn't it? Happy to have him prove me wrong though.

Timashov is only a few months younger than Kapanen and hasn't put up anywhere near Kapanen's level of production.  And Kapanen probably tops out as a 2nd liner.  Bracco is a full year younger, so he still has time to develop, and has actually put up better numbers than Timashov (ppg).  I put the chances of Timashov playing on a 2nd line somewhere very low- Bracco is more likely but at least one more year away from sniffing the NHL.  Hard for me to put them ahead of Brown (or even in the same tier really).

I have Kapanen at least one tier up on Timashov and Bracco so I'm not particularly surprised by the difference there. At this tier of prospect, I think production is very much a function of opportunity. I'm excited to see how the two of them do outside of the shadows of Kapanen and Johnsson, as they become the go-to offense options probably with Grundstrom and Engvall.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on June 21, 2018, 10:49:41 AM
Oh fine, you and your clique always trash my opinions anyways, so I guess I should just expect this kind of criticism from you.

:-*

Honestly, I think you're right, but I just have trouble ranking guys that high that haven't even really played NHL hockey yet, unless their projected to make the lineup.

With lists like these that contain both NHLers and prospects, I try to think how I would rank them as NHLers say 2-3 years from now.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 21, 2018, 12:08:39 PM
I could also point out that Brown has VERY high hockey-IQ and a better shot.  He also put up 61 points in the AHL at a much younger age.  Moore hasn't eclipsed 33.  I think Moore's speed will give him a good shot at being on the 4th line and PK duty, but that is still not near Brown's level.

That's a solid point. I like Brown (smart, generally in the right place at the right time), but I don't see him being more than a defensive utility option because of his lack of any other stand out capability. His offense is solely dependent on his linemates' ability to get the puck to him, and he is otherwise a straight-line player. His big AHL season was riding shotgun to William Nylander (who was artificially suppressed into the AHL), wasn't it? Happy to have him prove me wrong though.

Timashov is only a few months younger than Kapanen and hasn't put up anywhere near Kapanen's level of production.  And Kapanen probably tops out as a 2nd liner.  Bracco is a full year younger, so he still has time to develop, and has actually put up better numbers than Timashov (ppg).  I put the chances of Timashov playing on a 2nd line somewhere very low- Bracco is more likely but at least one more year away from sniffing the NHL.  Hard for me to put them ahead of Brown (or even in the same tier really).

I have Kapanen at least one tier up on Timashov and Bracco so I'm not particularly surprised by the difference there. At this tier of prospect, I think production is very much a function of opportunity. I'm excited to see how the two of them do outside of the shadows of Kapanen and Johnsson, as they become the go-to offense options probably with Grundstrom and Engvall.

You make very good points about opportunity here:  Brown played with Nylander a fair amount the year he put up lots of points in the AHL- but, Nylander only played half of that season so its not like he was riding shotgun all year with him.  He still did very well that season while away from Nylander.
Kapanen also played 1st line AHL minutes, where Timashov and Bracco have been farther down the depth chart in the AHL so far- and that's probably deserved since they aren't as good as those other guys yet.

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 21, 2018, 12:54:48 PM
You make very good points about opportunity here:  Brown played with Nylander a fair amount the year he put up lots of points in the AHL- but, Nylander only played half of that season so its not like he was riding shotgun all year with him.  He still did very well that season while away from Nylander.
Kapanen also played 1st line AHL minutes, where Timashov and Bracco have been farther down the depth chart in the AHL so far- and that's probably deserved since they aren't as good as those other guys yet.

Next year will be very curious on the Marlies side. All the higher end razzle dazzle are Leafs now (Nylander, Brown, Dermott, Kapanen, Johnsson), so it'll be down to Bracco, Timashov, Brooks, Grundstrom, Liljegren, and Engvall + new adds (probably Dzierkals) to see if we can still be an upper tier team. One of the things that Lou and Babcock preached that Dubas took to heart was putting prospects through competitive situations (e.g. Calder Cup playoffs) rather than solely focusing on skills development.

It's a bit too bad that Korshkov isn't coming over this season (more money in the KHL. There'll be a bump of Russians the year after though with Korshkov, Chebykin, and maybe Bobylev and Kara making the jump to the Marlies.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 21, 2018, 03:19:17 PM
You make very good points about opportunity here:  Brown played with Nylander a fair amount the year he put up lots of points in the AHL- but, Nylander only played half of that season so its not like he was riding shotgun all year with him.  He still did very well that season while away from Nylander.
Kapanen also played 1st line AHL minutes, where Timashov and Bracco have been farther down the depth chart in the AHL so far- and that's probably deserved since they aren't as good as those other guys yet.

Next year will be very curious on the Marlies side. All the higher end razzle dazzle are Leafs now (Nylander, Brown, Dermott, Kapanen, Johnsson), so it'll be down to Bracco, Timashov, Brooks, Grundstrom, Liljegren, and Engvall + new adds (probably Dzierkals) to see if we can still be an upper tier team. One of the things that Lou and Babcock preached that Dubas took to heart was putting prospects through competitive situations (e.g. Calder Cup playoffs) rather than solely focusing on skills development.

It's a bit too bad that Korshkov isn't coming over this season (more money in the KHL. There'll be a bump of Russians the year after though with Korshkov, Chebykin, and maybe Bobylev and Kara making the jump to the Marlies.

This was the lineup for Game 7 of the Calder Cup:

Johnsson - Aaltonen - Grundstrom
Timashov - Mueller - Smith
Engvall - Gauthier - Greening
Marchment - Brooks - Moore

Marincin - Holl
Rosen - LoVerde
Nielsen - Liljegren

Sparks

So lets assume Johnsson, Sparks, and Dermott are up with the Leafs.  Ben Smith has already signed to play in Europe.

Almost everyone else is under team control unless the Leafs don't want to sign said player to a NHL contract.  (ie AHL Contract only requires renouncing rights and hoping we don't lose them).  This includes:  Aaltonen, Gauthier, Marincin, Holl

Considering our depth at C in the organization, I highly doubt Aaltonen and Gauthier don't get NHL contracts.  Holl will also get one.  Marincin should also garner a NHL contract, although I'd doubt he passes through waivers.  Another NHL team should take a flyer on him- but lets say he passes through.
We've also added Lindholm and Ohzighanov to the mix. 

As of right now, there are only a few NHL jobs up for grabs (2-3 forwards, 1-2 depth defensman) so a lot of the names mentioned will be back with the Marlies.

I doubt they won't be a upper tier team.  Not saying they will repeat as champs, but I don't doubt they'll be one of the better teams in the AHL again.

My Projected Leafs with a potato GM:
Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen
Marleau - Kadri - Marner
Hyman - Nylander - Brown
(Trevor) Moore - Lindholm - Leivo
Martin

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Dermott - Carrick  (although I'd like to swap Dermott and Hainsey here)
Rosen - Ohziganov

Fredex
Sparks

Marlies
Timashov - Aaltonen - Grundstrom
Engvall - Gauthier - Greening
Marchment - Mueller - Bracco
Clune - Brooks - Dzerkals
Depth: ( http://www.thetelegram.com/sports/potential-newfoundland-growlers-marlies-sign-five-to-ahl-contracts-219620/ )

Marincin - Holl
Borgman - Liljegren
Neilsen - LoVerde

Pickard
Kaskisuo
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 24, 2018, 08:47:20 PM
Sans Aaltonen now, Im still not seeing the game breaking scoring talent on the Marlies next year unless Grundstrom and Engvall really click with Timashov and Bracco.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 25, 2018, 03:26:06 PM

Semyon Der-Arguchintsev and Fedor Gordeev will double as interpreters for the rather large Russian contingent. We also finally get to see if Vladislav Kara exists.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on June 25, 2018, 04:29:26 PM

Semyon Der-Arguchintsev and Fedor Gordeev will double as interpreters for the rather large Russian contingent. We also finally get to see if Vladislav Kara exists.
Kara does exist, I read it in a fiction novel. He is not a car part however.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Mr. Leaf on June 25, 2018, 07:52:00 PM
I'm assuming that's Matthew Barnaby Jr.?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 25, 2018, 09:00:09 PM
I'm assuming that's Matthew Barnaby Jr.?

I saw something on Twitter confirming that, yes.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Mr. Leaf on June 25, 2018, 09:25:36 PM
I'm assuming that's Matthew Barnaby Jr.?

I saw something on Twitter confirming that, yes.
Thanks, that's interesting to know!  I wonder if he plays anything at all like his father did?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 26, 2018, 09:30:38 AM
Fresh profile on Baby Barnaby: https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2018/06/25/maple-leaf-prospects-get-set-to-hit-the-ice.html

He's an undrafted 20 year old centre and was the leading scorer for Pembroke (Sheldon Keefe's previous stop before coaching the Greyhounds). Very, very lanky at the moment.

Specifically to your question, Mr. Leaf:
Quote
Hes by no means the same kind of player as his father, [coach] McTavish said of the elder Barnaby, who was one of the NHLs top fighters during his career, who amassed 2,562 penalty minutes in a career that spanned 1992-2007.

But he has grit, and the thing he has to do is grow into his body. But I think right now, hes got high-end talent on offence. And the past two seasons, he learned and improved on the defensive side of things.

Seems like a Mason Marchment type of project: NHL family, has skills and tall build that needs to put on strength.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 26, 2018, 10:22:50 AM

Neat!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 26, 2018, 10:29:52 AM
Fresh profile on Baby Barnaby: https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2018/06/25/maple-leaf-prospects-get-set-to-hit-the-ice.html

He's an undrafted 20 year old centre and was the leading scorer for Pembroke (Sheldon Keefe's previous stop before coaching the Greyhounds). Very, very lanky at the moment.

Specifically to your question, Mr. Leaf:
Quote
Hes by no means the same kind of player as his father, [coach] McTavish said of the elder Barnaby, who was one of the NHLs top fighters during his career, who amassed 2,562 penalty minutes in a career that spanned 1992-2007.

But he has grit, and the thing he has to do is grow into his body. But I think right now, hes got high-end talent on offence. And the past two seasons, he learned and improved on the defensive side of things.

Seems like a Mason Marchment type of project: NHL family, has skills and tall build that needs to put on strength.

Considering our lack of depth at C, I wouldn't be surprised if they offered him an AHL contract and he split time between Newfoundland and the Marlies
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Mr. Leaf on June 26, 2018, 05:30:15 PM
Fresh profile on Baby Barnaby: https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2018/06/25/maple-leaf-prospects-get-set-to-hit-the-ice.html

He's an undrafted 20 year old centre and was the leading scorer for Pembroke (Sheldon Keefe's previous stop before coaching the Greyhounds). Very, very lanky at the moment.

Specifically to your question, Mr. Leaf:
Quote
Hes by no means the same kind of player as his father, [coach] McTavish said of the elder Barnaby, who was one of the NHLs top fighters during his career, who amassed 2,562 penalty minutes in a career that spanned 1992-2007.

But he has grit, and the thing he has to do is grow into his body. But I think right now, hes got high-end talent on offence. And the past two seasons, he learned and improved on the defensive side of things.

Seems like a Mason Marchment type of project: NHL family, has skills and tall build that needs to put on strength.
Thank-you herman!  Much appreciated!  ;D
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 27, 2018, 01:53:02 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/06/27/rasmus-sandin-and-mac-hollowell-a-qa-with-former-soo-greyhounds-coach-drew-bannister/

MLHS had a chat with Drew Bannister to pick the coach's brain on a couple of our recent draftees.

I had completely forgotten that Hollowell suffered a broken fibula last year (http://www.saultstar.com/2017/08/29/really-tough-watching-hounds-hollowell) during the first scrimmage as an invite to our development camp (https://www.nhl.com/mapleleafs/news/maple-leafs-announce-development-camp-details/c-290240924) (at which fellow draftee Sean Durzi was also a participant*). The Leafs removed scrimmages from the program this year.

* Another interesting name on that 2017 list: Linus Nyman (https://canucksarmy.com/2018/05/25/canucksarmys-2018-nhl-draft-profiles-79-linus-nyman/), who went undrafted (again) this year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on June 27, 2018, 01:56:16 PM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/06/27/rasmus-sandin-and-mac-hollowell-a-qa-with-former-soo-greyhounds-coach-drew-bannister/

MLHS had a chat with Drew Bannister to pick the coach's brain on a couple of our recent draftees.

I had completely forgotten that Hollowell suffered a broken fibula last year (http://www.saultstar.com/2017/08/29/really-tough-watching-hounds-hollowell) during the first scrimmage as an invite to our development camp (https://www.nhl.com/mapleleafs/news/maple-leafs-announce-development-camp-details/c-290240924) (at which fellow draftee Sean Durzi was also a participant*). The Leafs removed scrimmages from the program this year.

* Another interesting name on that 2017 list: Linus Nyman (https://canucksarmy.com/2018/05/25/canucksarmys-2018-nhl-draft-profiles-79-linus-nyman/), who went undrafted (again) this year.


Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 27, 2018, 01:59:08 PM

:-X

WHY'D THEY TRICK ME IN CHEBY'S PROFILE ARTICLE (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/06/20/checking-in-on-nikolai-chebykin-2016-seventh-round-pick-set-to-attend-second-leafs-development-camp-after-up-and-down-2017-18-season-ends-in-vhl-championship/)???
Quote
Chebykin described the on-ice sessions as much different from what he was accustomed to at home. This year, General Manager Kyle Dubas has confirmed that the camp will do away with the scrimmage portion of the camp and focus on skill sessions on the ice as well as the nutrition, training, lifestyle and media training off the ice.

BAH.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 27, 2018, 02:01:32 PM

(https://media.giphy.com/media/11UaX1QBWn6sSY/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 27, 2018, 02:04:46 PM
Chris Van Os-Shaw, in case you aren't familiar with him yet, was briefly highlighted by Wheeler here: https://theathletic.com/409387/2018/06/26/theres-no-easy-part-humboldt-broncos-alum-chris-van-os-shaw-brings-heavy-heart-to-leafs-camp/
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 28, 2018, 05:03:20 PM

Rodrigo Abols was a Canucks 2016 7th rd draft pick (overager) (https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/20/report-canucks-prospect-rodrigo-abols-signs-with-orebro-of-the-shl/) and one of two Latvians in the camp (Dzierkals). He's since fallen off the Canuck's (https://thecanuckway.com/2018/02/08/vancouver-canucks-must-make-decision-draft-picks/) reserve list (https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks/reserve-list). Cool part is, the Canucks spent a pick on him even though it was already the 7th round and he was 20 at the time and could've just signed him a month later (if they wanted to use a contract slot).

He's the same age and size as Pierre Engvall, with a wee bit more physicality to his game.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 29, 2018, 11:56:45 AM
Dev Camp Scrimmage #1 highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvK6bMgWB2I

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on June 29, 2018, 12:07:03 PM
https://theathletic.com/412040/2018/06/28/mac-hollowell-and-rasmus-sandin-share-friendship-style-of-play-and-now-the-maple-leafs/

Quote
The Leafs brought in four Greyhounds by design not only because they like what they have in Sandin and Hollowell and want them to feel as comfortable as possible, but because the Greyhounds develop the kinds of smart, heady players the Leafs covet.

Coming to camp and not knowing anyone, youre nervous. When you see other guys that you played with last year it helps you out a lot. Mac was one of our better defencemen this year. Hes a great guy off the ice, hes always doing everything for the guys, hes always there for you, hes giving 110 per cent. I was thrilled for him, Howdeshell said. Macs smart, his head is always up, hes always making the next play. He always knows whats coming, hes smooth, hes got a nice shot, hes got nice hands, his hockey sense is one of the best that Ive personally seen in a while also.

In a lot of ways, Hollowell and Sandin are described in almost mirrored ways to one another. Hollowell laughs about how similar they are and the way the Greyhounds have developed likeminded players across the lineup, with a foundation that Dubas established. It was no surprise when the Greyhounds selected forward Roman Pucek, also in Leafs development camp this week, in Thursdays CHL import draft.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: hockeyfan1 on June 30, 2018, 02:55:29 PM
One "cool" kid:  Rasmus Sandin making the most of his time here (@hdevcamp)...



Quote
Arriving to Torontos development camp just days after the draft concluded, Sandin has strived all week to follow the wisdom of his fellow first-round draftees.

Its an exciting time thats come now, Sandin said after Fridays practice. Coming to Toronto is a cool experience, seeing all the guys and the management and just to see how everything works. Its a little different from playing in the OHL. Its one step closer to the best league in the world.

The Leafs have options on where he plays:
Quote
Sandin could return to the OHLs Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds, where he put together a successful freshman campaign last season (45 points in 51 games), or Sandin could head home to re-join Rogle BK of the Swedish Hockey League and honour the final year of his SHL contract.

No stranger to the language barrier:
Quote
Coming to North America was easier for Sandin than some of his countrymen, at least as far as language is concerned. Sandin abandoned studying Spanish and German in school to take up English, and made a point of honing his skills further last season in the Soo.

Improving or honing the finer points:
Quote
Those smaller details, those crossover moves and how youre supposed to use your stick a little bit more. Just overall pretty much everything [has been good] but especially those smaller things, he said. Weve worked on our skating a bit, and those step back moves. Its just very professional overall. We learned some smaller [things] but also some bigger details of the game.


https://www.tsn.ca/sandin-soaking-it-all-in-at-leafs-development-camp-1.1127063 (https://www.tsn.ca/sandin-soaking-it-all-in-at-leafs-development-camp-1.1127063)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 01, 2018, 02:36:36 AM
The week that was:  Hayley's week...

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 03, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 03, 2018, 08:41:40 PM
Subban may not be as skilled as his big bro PK, but he skates just like him.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 03, 2018, 08:58:32 PM
Subban may not be as skilled as his big bro PK, but he skates just like him.

Dubas knows him well from facing Utica often. Gilman knows him well from being part of the team that drafted him. This is another free bet on their development team to spin up another toolsy player.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on July 03, 2018, 09:43:05 PM
Subban may not be as skilled as his big bro PK, but he skates just like him.

Dubas knows him well from facing Utica often. Gilman knows him well from being part of the team that drafted him. This is another free bet on their development team to spin up another toolsy player.
Yup. Dubas thinks they can get the most out of him. Apparently he has a great shot and has some talent that hasn't been tapped yet. Let's see what the Leafs development team can do with him.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 03, 2018, 09:51:53 PM
Subban may not be as skilled as his big bro PK, but he skates just like him.

Dubas knows him well from facing Utica often. Gilman knows him well from being part of the team that drafted him. This is another free bet on their development team to spin up another toolsy player.
Yup. Dubas thinks they can get the most out of him. Apparently he has a great shot and has some talent that hasn't been tapped yet. Let's see what the Leafs development team can do with him.

Reading between the lines, that's Dubas giving Vancouver's development program a bit of a soft dig.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 13, 2018, 10:12:56 AM
Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on July 13, 2018, 10:20:44 AM
Invalid Tweet ID

What a slacker.  Cut him.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 15, 2018, 08:46:35 AM
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: mr grieves on July 16, 2018, 05:17:14 PM
Wheeler just put his list out with the Athletic. It's a good one, as he rates skill most highly and is pretty detailed about a probable development paths. I won't violate the paywall and put it here, but I will say, among the forwards, he seems to see Engvall as being most nearly ready (as a 4th line option), Bracco and Grundstrom as being capable of top 6 roles in a year (the latter) or more (the former), and, after that, some guys with tools/potential but some big red flags (e.g. Korshkov, SDA). Basically, by #11, we're looking at long-shots for NHL careers.

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on July 17, 2018, 09:05:56 AM
Wheeler just put his list out with the Athletic. It's a good one, as he rates skill most highly and is pretty detailed about a probable development paths. I won't violate the paywall and put it here, but I will say, among the forwards, he seems to see Engvall as being most nearly ready (as a 4th line option), Bracco and Grundstrom as being capable of top 6 roles in a year (the latter) or more (the former), and, after that, some guys with tools/potential but some big red flags (e.g. Korshkov, SDA). Basically, by #11, we're looking at long-shots for NHL careers.

I just read the article.  He doesn't seem very high on the Leafs prospect pool at all.   Has a ton of negative comments for each player, including those at the very top of his rankings like Liljegren, Sandin and Grundstrom.  Hope he's not right.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on July 17, 2018, 09:43:09 AM
I don't subscribe to The Athletic, but is Wheeler right a lot?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 17, 2018, 09:56:52 AM
I don't subscribe to The Athletic, but is Wheeler right a lot?

He's a journalist by trade, but has scouted for Future Considerations and tracked prospects for PPP and now the Athletic. He's really young, so he leans towards the modern game (speed, skill, agility, defensive acumen away from the puck).

Here's a mailbag post he answered re: 2017's draft if you want to get a feel for his tastes:
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2017/5/10/15593832/mailbag-the-leafs-and-the-2017-nhl-draft-edition
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on July 17, 2018, 10:02:11 AM
I don't know how good Wheeler is at identifying talent, but if he's accurate with his analysis it doesn't say much for all the years with Hunter leading up the draft.  2 of the top 5 prospects he lists are Sandin (#2) and Durzi (#5), two guys taken after Hunter and at picks 29 and 52, so not sure bets by any means yet they're already in the top 5 of Leafs prospect pool? 

Liljegren at #1 while still technically a Hunter pick, probably would have been Dubas's pick as well since he dropped so much in his draft year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on July 17, 2018, 10:06:20 AM
I don't subscribe to The Athletic, but is Wheeler right a lot?

I can't speak to this particular writer but it's pretty rare to write an evaluation of prospects where any one outcome for those players makes the writer "right" or not. It's usually "he may do this" or "if he can develop X, he'll be Y".
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 17, 2018, 10:18:04 AM
I don't know how good Wheeler is at identifying talent, but if he's accurate with his analysis it doesn't say much for all the years with Hunter leading up the draft.  2 of the top 5 prospects he lists are Sandin (#2) and Durzi (#5), two guys taken after Hunter and at picks 29 and 52, so not sure bets by any means yet they're already in the top 5 of Leafs prospect pool? 

Liljegren at #1 while still technically a Hunter pick, probably would have been Dubas's pick as well since he dropped so much in his draft year.

He was one of the people of Leafs Twitter influencing the stampede of downvoting of the Leafs' 2016 draft.

I generally agree with his takes when he goes over his PPP Top 25 under 25 votes (skill and projected potential > current NHL track record).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: mr grieves on July 17, 2018, 03:19:22 PM
I don't subscribe to The Athletic, but is Wheeler right a lot?

I can't speak to this particular writer but it's pretty rare to write an evaluation of prospects where any one outcome for those players makes the writer "right" or not. It's usually "he may do this" or "if he can develop X, he'll be Y".

Yeah, he doesn't really make pronouncements about what players will be. But I think, since he's a younger guy who's attracted to speed, skill, agility, etc., he's pretty attentive to the tools they have and what they might be if they develop. And, as they age and approach the point of graduating, he's been pretty good about predicting what they'll do in the NHL. He was, at the beginning of last season, pretty confident that Dermott, Johnsson, and Kapanen would be useful contributors, and they were.

So, if he says the Marlies don't have under-23 players ready for the Leafs, I believe it.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: nutman on July 17, 2018, 04:13:28 PM
I don't subscribe to The Athletic, but is Wheeler right a lot?

I can't speak to this particular writer but it's pretty rare to write an evaluation of prospects where any one outcome for those players makes the writer "right" or not. It's usually "he may do this" or "if he can develop X, he'll be Y".

Yeah, he doesn't really make pronouncements about what players will be. But I think, since he's a younger guy who's attracted to speed, skill, agility, etc., he's pretty attentive to the tools they have and what they might be if they develop. And, as they age and approach the point of graduating, he's been pretty good about predicting what they'll do in the NHL. He was, at the beginning of last season, pretty confident that Dermott, Johnsson, and Kapanen would be useful contributors, and they were.

So, if he says the Marlies don't have under-23 players ready for the Leafs, I believe it.




 Dermott, Johnsson, and Kapanen would be useful contributors.   Anyone could see them three coming a mile away, so IMO that don't say much.

I follow our system, and I see lots of up and comers. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 20, 2018, 10:24:04 AM
My post-draft rankings:

Matthews
Marner
Nylander
Rielly
Dermott
Kapanen
Liljegren
Johnsson
Grundstrom
Sandin
Carrick
Brown
Borgman
Rosen
Durzi
Bracco
Engvall
SDA
Timashov
Moore
Brooks
Marchment
Rasanen
Korshkov
Woll

I re-did them because PPP has their community vote going on right now. 

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/9/17528052/2018-top-25-maple-leafs-under-25-community-vote-ppp-top-25-under-25-maple-leafs-prospects-carlton

Direct link to the form if you want to vote:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfmv3ZVrQ5OqWnDMEjuWSgFC_lo6KruAemw4oKyM7PWJSRpUQ/viewform?fbzx=-1772282509429105000

I found it easier to do the rankings in notepad++ and then fill in the form than try and rank within the form.

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 20, 2018, 11:15:21 AM
Capital idea, Coco.

My Old ListMy New List
1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Johnsson
9. Grundstrom
10. Borgman
11. Carrick
12. Timashov
13. Bracco
14. Rosen
15. Moore
16. Brown
17. Korshkov
18. Engvall
19. Sparks
20. Brooks
21. Dzierkals
22. Marchment
23. Rasanen
24. Nielsen
25. Woll
1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Sandin
9. Johnsson
10. Grundstrom
11. Borgman
12. Carrick
13. Timashov
14. Bracco
15. Durzi
16. Rosen
17. Moore
18. Brown
19. Der-Arguchintsev
20. Korshkov
21. Hollowell
22. Subban
23. Engvall
24. Brooks
25. Dzierkals

Again, I just plopped some names down.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 20, 2018, 11:45:49 AM
Capital idea, Coco.

My Old ListMy New List
1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Johnsson
9. Grundstrom
10. Borgman
11. Carrick
12. Timashov
13. Bracco
14. Rosen
15. Moore
16. Brown
17. Korshkov
18. Engvall
19. Sparks
20. Brooks
21. Dzierkals
22. Marchment
23. Rasanen
24. Nielsen
25. Woll
1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Sandin
9. Johnsson
10. Grundstrom
11. Borgman
12. Carrick
13. Timashov
14. Bracco
15. Durzi
16. Rosen
17. Moore
18. Brown
19. Der-Arguchintsev
20. Korshkov
21. Hollowell
22. Subban
23. Engvall
24. Sparks
25. Brooks

Again, I just plopped some names down.

Sparks is 25 now.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 20, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
Sparks is 25 now.

Duly noted!

Edit: I had actually already cleared him off the list on the original post and then promptly forgot.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on July 20, 2018, 01:03:39 PM
My post-draft rankings:

Matthews
Marner
Nylander
Rielly
Dermott
Kapanen
Liljegren
Johnsson
Grundstrom
Sandin
Carrick
Brown
Borgman
Rosen
Durzi
Bracco
Engvall
SDA
Timashov
Moore
Brooks
Marchment
Rasanen
Korshkov
Woll

I re-did them because PPP has their community vote going on right now. 

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/9/17528052/2018-top-25-maple-leafs-under-25-community-vote-ppp-top-25-under-25-maple-leafs-prospects-carlton

Direct link to the form if you want to vote:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfmv3ZVrQ5OqWnDMEjuWSgFC_lo6KruAemw4oKyM7PWJSRpUQ/viewform?fbzx=-1772282509429105000

I found it easier to do the rankings in notepad++ and then fill in the form than try and rank within the form.

Wrong.

Capital idea, Coco.

My Old ListMy New List
1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Johnsson
9. Grundstrom
10. Borgman
11. Carrick
12. Timashov
13. Bracco
14. Rosen
15. Moore
16. Brown
17. Korshkov
18. Engvall
19. Sparks
20. Brooks
21. Dzierkals
22. Marchment
23. Rasanen
24. Nielsen
25. Woll
1. Matthews
2. Nylander
3. Marner
4. Rielly
5. Liljegren
6. Kapanen
7. Dermott
8. Sandin
9. Johnsson
10. Grundstrom
11. Borgman
12. Carrick
13. Timashov
14. Bracco
15. Durzi
16. Rosen
17. Moore
18. Brown
19. Der-Arguchintsev
20. Korshkov
21. Hollowell
22. Subban
23. Engvall
24. Brooks
25. Dzierkals

Again, I just plopped some names down.

Wrong.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 20, 2018, 01:15:32 PM
Wrong.

Enlightening.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on July 20, 2018, 01:26:08 PM
Wrong.

Enlightening.

The right answer:

Matthews
Marner
Nylander
Rielly
Dermott
Liljegren
Johnsson
Kapanen
Brown
Grundstrom
Sandin
Borgman
Rosen
Carrick
Durzi
Engvall
SDA
Rasanen
Bracco
Marchment
Moore
Subban
Timashov
Brooks
Korshkov



Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frycer14 on July 20, 2018, 09:35:49 PM
The real right answer:
Matthews
Marner
Rielly
Nylander
Dermott
Johnsson
Kapanen
Liljegren
Brown
Sandin
Grundstrom
Borgman
Marchment
Carrick
Rosen
Durzi
Engvall
Rasanen
Bracco
Moore
Timashov
Brooks
Korshkov
Subban
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 30, 2018, 09:18:16 AM
25. Pierre Engvall (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/30/17620398/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-pierre-engvall-nhl-prospects-toronto-marlies-ahl)

Here we go! Though he's more of a perimeter guy at the moment, this is the kind of player you should put through the JvR net-front training regimen.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 30, 2018, 09:34:58 AM
Engvall definitely put himself on the radar with his performance on the Marlies late in the season after being mostly written off by everyone. He's still a long ways away but even if he's just a big offensive body for the Marlies for awhile that's still a success for a 7th round pick.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 30, 2018, 10:31:49 AM
If people are wondering where his offense went during the playoffs, he was stapled to offensive puzzle wizard Frederik Gauthier's left wing in a shutdown capacity.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 31, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
24. Jordan Subban (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/31/17623976/maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-jordan-subban-marlies-defenceman)

Debut sort of.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 31, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
24. Jordan Subban (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/31/17623976/maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-jordan-subban-marlies-defenceman)

Debut sort of.

I would have put Engvall over him. This list is already garbage.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: cabber24 on July 31, 2018, 12:06:33 PM
They are going to draw this out over 25 days? I'll check back then.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on July 31, 2018, 12:17:47 PM
They are going to draw this out over 25 days? I'll check back then.

I can't remember if they post them on weekends or not... so it could be 33 days! 

Really though, you can probably check in once they get to number 5.  The Top 4 are a foregone conclusion, and unless you really care about the Marner vs Nylander debate, probably won't need to read what they have to say about those Top 4 guys.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on July 31, 2018, 12:23:44 PM
It's a pretty smart way to get those precious clicks during the dog days of summer.

And at least they're not just spitting out one name at a time and that's it. The profiles that are posted as well are pretty in-depth. I can understand why they wouldn't want to drop 25 of those all at once.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on July 31, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
24. Jordan Subban (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/7/31/17623976/maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-jordan-subban-marlies-defenceman)

Debut sort of.

I would have put Engvall over him. This list is already garbage.

I think it's because Subban is shiny and new.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 31, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
I can't remember if they post them on weekends or not... so it could be 33 days! 

Weekdays only. 5 per week. 5 weeks total. August 31st is Auston Matthews.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on July 31, 2018, 04:30:30 PM
So, we figure Ottawa has their eye on this guy?

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/top-2019-nhl-prospect-jack-hughes-talks-picking-usntdp-school/

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on July 31, 2018, 04:54:31 PM
So, we figure Ottawa has their eye on this guy?

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/top-2019-nhl-prospect-jack-hughes-talks-picking-usntdp-school/

I
Cant
Stop
Laughing
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 01, 2018, 09:15:50 AM
23. Mason Marchment (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/1/17627880/maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-mason-marchment-marlies-chaotic-good)

Undrafted and basically set adrift after his junior eligibility wore off, someone in the organization really went to bat for Marchment's potential.

Quote
You cant separate the Marchment story from the Kyle Dubas Three-Tiered Development Program story. Its a narrative that is perhaps overemphasized at times, but then you have Mason Marchment there and see him play and be a key contributor to the Marlies Calder Cup win and its hard to think it isnt a real actual thing. Dubas sees the ECHL as a place to put some hidden gem who has very raw potential but needs extra time to develop. Orlando became the place to pan for gold, and Marchment has become the emblem of success for this philosophy for Leafs fans.

Even if he doesn't make the NHL team (he could probably fulfill spot duty on the 4th wing), I'm still big on this for the reason stated above. Marchment, Justin Holl, and Trevor Moore are the first wave of dregs from traditional development systems to float to the cusp of NHL opportunity. It's a much shorter runway for NHL success than your 1st and 2nd rounders, but if they catch fire for even a season or two, that's an asset from virtually nothing (other than time and contract space). They're not going to be your fully paid core players, but they are going to keep the prospect pipeline at a higher pressure and save UFA money for the players that matter. I think we'll see something similar with Kristian Pospisil.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 02, 2018, 09:34:05 AM
22. Dmytro Timashov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/2/17607868/toronto-maple-leafs-dmytro-timashov-2018-top-25-under-25-toronto-marlies-jeremy-bracco)

I know I generally don't believe in this for the Leafs, but in a traditional team build, Timashov would be top-6 or bust. He's a heavy body, but doesn't play that shutdown style. Drafted in the same year but a year apart in age, he's basically the mirror Jeremy Bracco: perimeter playmaker and powerplay specialist with average speed (but getting quicker). The advantage Timashov has over Bracco is he plays the much more open left wing.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: OldTimeHockey on August 02, 2018, 12:47:36 PM
much more open left wing.

I'm not doubting the statement, just curious on the theory. Is the left wing more open?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bullfrog on August 02, 2018, 12:55:52 PM
I think it is. RW is Marner-Nylander-Kapanen-Brown. LW locked up is Marleau, Hyman, and Johnsson. After that it's open: Leivo, Tyler Ennis (though he's probably 4th centre)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 02, 2018, 01:03:19 PM
much more open left wing.

I'm not doubting the statement, just curious on the theory. Is the left wing more open?

I was referring to the depth chart on the Leafs in the top-9 as Bullfrog outlined. Bracco basically has no opening so long as Nylander is playing wing. Unless Babcock suddenly shifts his 4th line philosophy to PP specialists rather than PK, Bracco is destined to be trade bait. Timashov has a shot at a 3rd line spot when Marleau is gone, or Hyman is 4RW'd.

If we're talking systems though... I might point to the relative dearth of RD in the league, but I doubt that has any significant impact on entry routes/results. Shooting theory-wise, I have previously posited that a right-shot from the left wing has a higher success rate putting pucks into the net due to most goalies being right blockers (Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, Panarin), but I haven't the technical skills to scrape and parse the data (if there even is accurate data on shot location + shot on goal location + pre-shot movement).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: OldTimeHockey on August 02, 2018, 04:32:12 PM
much more open left wing.

I'm not doubting the statement, just curious on the theory. Is the left wing more open?

I was referring to the depth chart on the Leafs in the top-9 as Bullfrog outlined. Bracco basically has no opening so long as Nylander is playing wing. Unless Babcock suddenly shifts his 4th line philosophy to PP specialists rather than PK, Bracco is destined to be trade bait. Timashov has a shot at a 3rd line spot when Marleau is gone, or Hyman is 4RW'd.

If we're talking systems though... I might point to the relative dearth of RD in the league, but I doubt that has any significant impact on entry routes/results. Shooting theory-wise, I have previously posited that a right-shot from the left wing has a higher success rate putting pucks into the net due to most goalies being right blockers (Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, Panarin), but I haven't the technical skills to scrape and parse the data (if there even is accurate data on shot location + shot on goal location + pre-shot movement).

hahaha I so misunderstood your original post!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 03, 2018, 09:28:42 AM
21. Yegor Korshkov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/3/17641094/2018-top-25-maple-leafs-under-25-21-yegor-korshkov-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-khl-lokomotiv)

Speaking of left wing options...

This one is further down the pipeline (at least one more year of KHL), but he has grown from young benchwarmer to all-situations utility man with wheels, flashes of skill, and the physicality to back up his size.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 03, 2018, 09:48:39 AM
21. Yegor Korshkov (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/3/17641094/2018-top-25-maple-leafs-under-25-21-yegor-korshkov-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-khl-lokomotiv)

Speaking of left wing options...

This one is further down the pipeline (at least one more year of KHL), but he has grown from young benchwarmer to all-situations utility man with wheels, flashes of skill, and the physicality to back up his size.

This might be the most polarizing pick of the last 5 years.

I think what fuels further frustration is that we've never actually seen the guy play...DeBrincat has 52 points in 82 games, but interestingly didn't get taken until spot 39.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 03, 2018, 10:03:33 AM
This might be the most polarizing pick of the last 5 years.

I think what fuels further frustration is that we've never actually seen the guy play...DeBrincat has 52 points in 82 games, but interestingly didn't get taken until spot 39.

Does it count as polarizing if it is widely panned?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 03, 2018, 11:07:14 AM
This might be the most polarizing pick of the last 5 years.

I think what fuels further frustration is that we've never actually seen the guy play...DeBrincat has 52 points in 82 games, but interestingly didn't get taken until spot 39.

Does it count as polarizing if it is widely panned?

Yeah, that's probably more accurate.

The fact that he choose to stay in the KHL for another year, rather than signing with the Leafs and play Marlies hockey, probably isn't a good sign when he's 22 years old.

Having said that, I don't know that the Leafs even offered him a contract.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 03, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
The fact that he choose to stay in the KHL for another year, rather than signing with the Leafs and play Marlies hockey, probably isn't a good sign when he's 22 years old.

Having said that, I don't know that the Leafs even offered him a contract.

He felt he had unfinished business in the KHL as last season didn't go as well as he wanted (even though he markedly improved, especially following the coaching change). The KHL also pays a lot better and this coach actually likes him and wants to use him in key situations. Normally players of his age the past couple of seasons get nominal playing time in the KHL and yo-yo'd to the junior or farm team leagues (MHL, VHL). He has held his own and continued to gain traction in a league that really doesn't do any favours for the youth.

There is no time limit on when the Leafs need to offer Korshkov (or any MHL/KHL draft picks) a bona fide contract as we retain their rights indefinitely (https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/mapleleafs/reserve-list).

While I would have much preferred some higher end skill with this pick (DeBrincat, Girard), Korshkov is not a bad player in the slightest and can really be slotted into the wings at any position and give the team value. When Hyman/Brown are priced out of our roster, Korshkov, Grundstrom are going to be solid replacements with higher scoring upside. Korshkov is Engvall/Marchment/Gauthier height (and reach) but 2-3x their speed.

Edit: Adding a recent reddit report (https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/926z5a/maple_leafs_prospect_update_yegor_korshkov/) on Korshkov
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 06, 2018, 12:13:50 PM

This chart shows the difference between Dubas' draft this offseason, compared to the Lou drafts from the past two years, for OHL defensemen only.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 06, 2018, 12:36:29 PM
I'm not being critical of you here, herman, but that tweet is a pretty weak attempt at a compliment to Dubas for drafting this year...a simple PPG stat?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bullfrog on August 06, 2018, 01:14:00 PM
I think it's nonetheless engcouraging. I've always been of the opinion that even "defensive specialists" have to be able to produce big-time offense at the junior level. If you're already starting with someone who can't score at junior level, it's less likely they'll amount to anything at higher levels.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 06, 2018, 01:28:16 PM
I'm not being critical of you here, herman, but that tweet is a pretty weak attempt at a compliment to Dubas for drafting this year...a simple PPG stat?

Bullfrog already outlined it, but PPG is one of the better indicators available publically that translates to NHL success. Yes, it is a bit simplistic and flat. pGPS (https://canucksarmy.com/2016/05/04/the-return-of-draft-analytics-the-prospect-graduation-probabilities-system-pgps/) is an alternative you mightve be interested in that does comparisons with past players with similar profiles.

Heres Rasmus Sandins profile (https://canucksarmy.com/2018/06/08/canucksarmys-2018-nhl-draft-profiles-30-rasmus-sandin/) for reference (pGPS is a bit further down).

I welcome criticism in any case :) people who see things differently from me can only help me triangulate a better picture at the end of the day, and thats what discussion forums are for.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 06, 2018, 02:37:39 PM
I don't really think that chart is trying to prove that Dubas' draft was better than Hunter's, just that it's pretty clear they were going after different players. It's still entirely possible that Rasanen and Gordeev end up being the best two defencemen from those groups.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bullfrog on August 06, 2018, 02:42:31 PM
Agreed Mr Carl, that's how I see it and is also why I find it encouraging. If it was up to me, every single pick would be based on offensive potential.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 06, 2018, 02:44:02 PM
I'm not being critical of you here, herman, but that tweet is a pretty weak attempt at a compliment to Dubas for drafting this year...a simple PPG stat?

Bullfrog already outlined it, but PPG is one of the better indicators available publically that translates to NHL success. Yes, it is a bit simplistic and flat. pGPS (https://canucksarmy.com/2016/05/04/the-return-of-draft-analytics-the-prospect-graduation-probabilities-system-pgps/) is an alternative you mightve be interested in that does comparisons with past players with similar profiles.

Heres Rasmus Sandins profile (https://canucksarmy.com/2018/06/08/canucksarmys-2018-nhl-draft-profiles-30-rasmus-sandin/) for reference (pGPS is a bit further down).

I welcome criticism in any case :) people who see things differently from me can only help me triangulate a better picture at the end of the day, and thats what discussion forums are for.

I don't have any issue with the pick, but it's not like he was an off the board pick, he was ranked right there.

Trying to frame this as a "Dubas vs. Lou/Hunter" pick is a little silly.  You don't have to look far to determine his points production, as a GM. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 06, 2018, 02:48:28 PM
And really, just to add to my comment, I'm getting a little sick and tired of reading about how Dubas is about drafting skill, and Hunter/Lou was about size.

Hunter/Lou drafted plenty of skill over size over the past few years here.  They may have swung for the fences with some big d-men, but Dermott is a pretty strong example of what they drafted when they were picking high...other than the stupid Korshkov pick.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 06, 2018, 02:54:38 PM
I don't really think that chart is trying to prove that Dubas' draft was better than Hunter's, just that it's pretty clear they were going after different players. It's still entirely possible that Rasanen and Gordeev end up being the best two defencemen from those groups.

So the past 2 drafts, where which they picked Liljegren and Sandin in the first round?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 06, 2018, 04:55:30 PM
I think Hunter is pretty high on skill and IQ, but under Lous tenure, it manifested as drafting for tools, relative to Dubas drafting for even strength results. 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/06/28/leafs-mark-hunter-works-hard-to-find-players-that-make-it-look-easy.html
Quote
Skilled players have a better chance to get things done on the ice, Hunter said. You get a big, strong guy, its hard to develop skill. Guys that do have skill, you can develop them physically. They can get stronger. Thats how I look at it.

The Detroit Red Wings have been doing that for years. They can get stronger, but you cant put hockey sense into a player.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on August 06, 2018, 05:13:38 PM
And really, just to add to my comment, I'm getting a little sick and tired of reading about how Dubas is about drafting skill, and Hunter/Lou was about size.

Hunter/Lou drafted plenty of skill over size over the past few years here.  They may have swung for the fences with some big d-men, but Dermott is a pretty strong example of what they drafted when they were picking high...other than the stupid Korshkov pick.
What do you mean Frankie, Koshkov could become the next Fred Modin
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 07, 2018, 09:22:42 AM
20. Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/7/17598140/2018-top-25-under-25-20-semyon-der-arguchintsev-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)

This is a pretty big debut for a freshly drafted non-first rounder.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 07, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
So the past 2 drafts, where which they picked Liljegren and Sandin in the first round?

Well yeah, it's kinda ironic that both of Hunter's non-Matthews 1st round picks were more "home-run" selections than Dubas' first 1st rounder.

On another note, when judging Hunter's draft record I don't think we should ignore the influence of Lou here as well. In 2015 before he was hired, Dubas himself said that he and Hunter worked more side-by-side as co-GMs and they both tackled the draft. I think that you can see that in how the draft played out (trading down, taking swings on guys like Bracco, Timashov, Korostelev). When Lou came aboard Hunter and Dubas' duties were more clearly defined and split. This led to Dubas having less of a role in the draft and I'd imagine Lou had some influence on the kinds of players the Leafs were picking.

Now as a Dubas fan I should point out, the 2015 draft that he had more of a voice in hasn't been the smashing success that some of us hoped it would be. The jury is still very much out on a number of those players. I still like the strategy that they took, but so far it hasn't panned out. And while I liked the 2018 draft more than the 16 and 17 drafts, there were picks that the armchair-GM in me would have made differently (Veleno and Addison in particular).

So so far, neither Hunter or Dubas have shown to be draft gurus exactly. The problem is the media won't shut up about calling one of them that and it's completely unfounded at this point.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 07, 2018, 11:15:32 AM
So so far, neither Hunter or Dubas have shown to be draft gurus exactly. The problem is the media won't shut up about calling one of them that and it's completely unfounded at this point.

I think that was my point...these people falling over each other trying to anoint either one of these guys is premature at best, wrong at worst.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 07, 2018, 11:21:21 AM
So so far, neither Hunter or Dubas have shown to be draft gurus exactly. The problem is the media won't shut up about calling one of them that and it's completely unfounded at this point.

One of the constant realities of the Shanahan era has been some media types, and resultingly a lot of fans, wanting to give people credit for things that had yet to happen.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bender on August 07, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
20. Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/7/17598140/2018-top-25-under-25-20-semyon-der-arguchintsev-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)

This is a pretty big debut for a freshly drafted non-first rounder.
Maybe they just like his taking over for JVR. SDA!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 07, 2018, 01:21:01 PM
So so far, neither Hunter or Dubas have shown to be draft gurus exactly. The problem is the media won't shut up about calling one of them that and it's completely unfounded at this point.

I think that was my point...these people falling over each other trying to anoint either one of these guys is premature at best, wrong at worst.

One of the constant realities of the Shanahan era has been some media types, and resultingly a lot of fans, wanting to give people credit for things that had yet to happen.

Isn't sports media incentivized to take a stand one way or another? Wait and see doesn't generate attention/clicks the way being right (or being super wrong) does.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 08, 2018, 09:35:33 AM
19. Eemeli Rsnen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/8/17627328/2018-top-25-under-25-19-eemeli-rasanen-maple-leafs-prospects-khl-jokerit)

Rsnen just fell off the bottom of my rankings, but that part of the list is a crapshoot from 12 down, so \_(ツ)_/. He's closer to the bottom end for me because I don't think he thinks the game very well and largely gets by with being... large (he really likes to hit, to the detriment of his responsibilities). But he plays the coveted RD position and is not a terribad skater, and that 6'7" height and reach is not nothing in that position.

He's going to be playing in the KHL this season so it'll be a bit of out-of-sight; out-of-mind in terms of tracking his progress. Playing up in a pro league might hold him in better stead with more structure to simplify decision-making.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 08, 2018, 09:47:31 AM
So so far, neither Hunter or Dubas have shown to be draft gurus exactly. The problem is the media won't shut up about calling one of them that and it's completely unfounded at this point.

I think that was my point...these people falling over each other trying to anoint either one of these guys is premature at best, wrong at worst.

One of the constant realities of the Shanahan era has been some media types, and resultingly a lot of fans, wanting to give people credit for things that had yet to happen.

Isn't sports media incentivized to take a stand one way or another? Wait and see doesn't generate attention/clicks the way being right (or being super wrong) does.

I guess I see it differently.

I think it's the Leafs' job to send out the press releases and tell everyone how awesome the players they drafted are, and how great things look for the future, and you should pay super high dollars to see our product.

I think it's the sports media's job to sift through that BS, and really comment on the realities of the current state of affairs and the future prospects. 

I think some of the media people are doing the opposite, and really painting Dubas and the Leafs moves/draft picks as being superior without any evidence.  And this is interesting to me, because this Toronto sports media was traditionally seen as critical of everything.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 08, 2018, 09:58:35 AM
Isn't sports media incentivized to take a stand one way or another? Wait and see doesn't generate attention/clicks the way being right (or being super wrong) does.

To the extent that all media is incentivized towards hot takes and sensationalism, sure. It's still, you know, dumb.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 08, 2018, 10:09:28 AM
I think it's the sports media's job to sift through that BS, and really comment on the realities of the current state of affairs and the future prospects. 

I think some of the media people are doing the opposite, and really painting Dubas and the Leafs moves/draft picks as being superior without any evidence.  And this is interesting to me, because this Toronto sports media was traditionally seen as critical of everything.

You're such a romantic :) The media has done the same for the beginning of every regime change, and then after the honeymoon period the knives come out at the first sign of distress. Perhaps you're reacting more to the blogosphere side of Toronto sports media, because they see Dubas as doing all the things they've been telling the old front offices to do and also doing things they didn't think of (whether it works or not, but at least trying). There are definitely some MSM members who initially bemoaned Dubas' anointing especially at the cost of the more traditional Lou/Hunter combo, but they've quieted significantly with the Calder Cup and Tavares news.

To the extent that all media is incentivized towards hot takes and sensationalism, sure. It's still, you know, dumb.

Which is why discussion boards like these (and twitter/reddit/facebook moreso) exist, right? It's not just media though: some of our best discussions here unfortunately spawned from really bad takes that were doubled down on for months.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 08, 2018, 10:16:03 AM
Which is why discussion boards like these (and twitter/reddit/facebook moreso) exist, right? It's not just media though: some of our best discussions here unfortunately spawned from really bad takes that were doubled down on for months.

I've never really thought of the purpose of a place like this to be to fact check the media, even if media criticism is a part of what we inevitably discuss. We can still expect more from the people paid to write and talk about this stuff.

But again, there's a wide range of difference between a bad or wrong take and what I'm talking about. Saying in February that the Leafs wouldn't sign Tavares or whatever was wrong, sure, and saying that they would or might was more correct. Saying that they should already get the credit for having done it though is bordering on the insane.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 08, 2018, 10:24:51 AM
Which is why discussion boards like these (and twitter/reddit/facebook moreso) exist, right? It's not just media though: some of our best discussions here unfortunately spawned from really bad takes that were doubled down on for months.

I've never really thought of the purpose of a place like this to be to fact check the media, even if media criticism is a part of what we inevitably discuss. We can still expect more from the people paid to write and talk about this stuff.

I don't disagree here; at the same time, who is in charge of what you read and listen to?

Saying that they should already get the credit for having done it though is bordering on the insane.

Again, I don't disagree. Are we still talking about Hofford's hyperbole here, or more of a general zeitgeist thing? If it is about Hofford's comment about the team being on the verge of winning a Cup, I'd argue that was his accurate assessment of what most of the Leafs front office/players believed, just based off the moves they did/did not make. I am crossing up threads here.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 08, 2018, 10:37:09 AM
I don't disagree here; at the same time, who is in charge of what you read and listen to?

I think that's a more complicated question than you think, especially now that there's massive overlap between people who are ostensibly the critical media and game coverage. Someone out there may not like a Damian Cox or Elliotte Friedman or whoever but if they're just consuming the games themselves or watching Sportsnet generally they're bound to hear from all manner of people that they may not personally hold in high regard. It's one of the many thorny issues in wrapping up rights-holders and analysis in one(or two) conglomerates.

But even in the pre-internet age I think that being a savvy media consumer in a local market meant paying attention to things even if they weren't necessarily in your wheel house. Reading Cox or Strachan might not have been your cup of tea but being a Leafs-focused columnist at one of the city's dailies was a big deal and their opinions informed and often created the discussion around the team. Besides, if you were reading the paper you may as well read the whole damn paper.

I realize that the modern trend is to be selective in the media you consume to the point that you only see/read/hear the people you like or who do their jobs the way you approve of but I think that sort of devalues the communal nature of being a sports fan.

Again, I don't disagree. Are we still talking about Hofford's hyperbole here, or more of a general zeitgeist thing?

I was making sort of a separate point about something I've seen a lot of since Shanahan took over that I don't really think we saw before.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 08, 2018, 10:47:28 AM
I hope you don't mind, Nik, that I've pushed the response to the above into the media thread (http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=514.msg333093#msg333093); I think it's a very interesting discussion but lacking in prospect rankings.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on August 08, 2018, 11:55:43 AM
yes Rasanen has been hijacked
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 09, 2018, 09:21:30 AM
18. Sean Durzi (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/9/17501712/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-2018-sean-durzi-nhl-draft-owen-sound-attack-ohl-prospects)

He's basically a rover.

His draft year was hampered by discovering he had Os Trigonum Syndrome that required surgical correction and subsequent rehab that led to him sitting at the 2017 draft through 7 rounds. Getting drafted by his hometown team the following year was his reward for the breakout season he followed up that disappointment with.

Dubas invited him to the 2017-18 dev camp and wanted to sign him, but didn't have the contract space at the time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 10, 2018, 09:18:41 AM
17. Jeremy Bracco (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/10/17662658/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-jeremy-bracco-toronto-marlies-kitchener-rangers-windsor-spitfires)

Braccooooooooo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL34fiauhq4)!

He got the rookie treatment, but also started the season on the wrong foot with a bout of mono over the summer (Mitchy, what you doing?). He does have a bit of a hill to climb in order to make it to the Leafs as he occupies the same niche as Marner and Nylander, and Brown and Kapanen offer complementary benefits. A reality of the cap era is that decent to good wingers will need to be shed as they climb the pay scale, so options like Bracco (and Grundstrom, Korshkov, etc.) will eventually find roster space, or be spun off for assets in niches of need.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on August 10, 2018, 10:50:58 AM

FWIW, I thought Bracco might have been the answer to that question WIGWAL put out in the armchair GM thread.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 13, 2018, 09:28:55 AM
16. Adam Brooks (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/13/17651198/2018-t25u25-16-adam-brooks-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-rankings-stats-profiles)

Brooks' pro career started on the back of a playoff concussion and subsequent off-season mono (Mitch, what you doing? Please make friends with Jack Hughes and Alexis Lafreniere). Because of the Marlies also running Mueller, Smith, Gauthier, and Aaltonen, Brooks didn't get the minutes he was best suited for. He did get a hybrid role though: offensive centre with minimal minutes in overmatch situations. herman is in favour of this sort of 4th line deployment.

Rounding out his defensive acumen and translating his offensive instincts into play without the puck will be the ticket to get him onto the Leafs, likely through the wing as centre redundancy. He's been getting PK reps, a la Kapanen.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 13, 2018, 05:57:26 PM
Who do we think tomorrow's pick is...Moore?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 14, 2018, 09:10:27 AM
Who do we think tomorrow's pick is...Moore?

Ding ding ding

15. Trevor Moore (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/14/17672804/2018-top-25-under-25-15-trevor-moore-has-a-shot-with-the-toronto-maple-leafs-toronto-marlies-lineup)

Imagine if Connor Brown was left handed and a much faster skater and could generate zone entries at will (like Will).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 14, 2018, 09:31:52 AM
I get that you can argue that Moore was buried down the line-up a little, but Brown led the Marlies in scoring in his first season and then in his 2nd year almost matched Moore's sophomore season point totals in half as many games. So we should maybe easy up a little on the 'Moore's a faster Connor Brown' talk.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 14, 2018, 09:38:07 AM
Imagine if Connor Brown was left handed and a much faster skater and could generate zone entries at will (like Will).

I get that you can argue that Moore was buried down the line-up a little, but Brown led the Marlies in scoring in his first season and then in his 2nd year almost matched Moore's sophomore season point totals in half as many games. So we should maybe easy up a little on the 'Moore's a faster Connor Brown' talk.

Ice time + quality of teammates probably accounts for a lot of that difference. I should have specified that was a stylistic comparison more than anything.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 14, 2018, 10:23:34 AM

I am very surprised the Leafs ended up this high on the list considering all our top eggs are in the NHL, but at the same time, I am very insulted that they are rated lower than Montreal and Chicago.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 14, 2018, 10:30:25 AM
I am very surprised the Leafs ended up this high on the list considering all our top eggs are in the NHL, but at the same time, I am very insulted that they are rated lower than Montreal and Chicago.

The fact that he still considers Johnsson a prospect is a big boost. He alone probably bumped us up 5-ish spots.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 14, 2018, 10:44:50 AM
I am very surprised the Leafs ended up this high on the list considering all our top eggs are in the NHL, but at the same time, I am very insulted that they are rated lower than Montreal and Chicago.

The fact that he still considers Johnsson a prospect is a big boost. He alone probably bumped us up 5-ish spots.

For non-subscribers, this is the requirement:
Quote
A player is no longer considered an NHL prospect if he has played more than 25 NHL games in any single season, 50 career NHL games or is older than age 27 as of Sept. 15, 2018. All other players are considered eligible.

Johnsson has 9 regular season games and 6 playoff games.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 14, 2018, 12:18:45 PM
TLN's top 20 kicked off yesterday, so I'm back filling here:
20. Andrew Nielsen (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/13/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-20-andrew-nielsen/)
19. Mac Hollowell (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/14/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-19-mac-hollowell/)

Note, TLN does its rankings by Calder Trophy eligibility.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: mr grieves on August 14, 2018, 01:15:10 PM
Besides the overall farm ranking, Pronman's write up is worth a look. I like his categories and added my own interpretation of what they probably mean (based on his description of each player) in the coming years.

Very Good NHL Prospect = Top 6F / Top 4D projection
1. Liljegren

Legit NHL Prospect = Top 6F / Top 4D Upside
2. Johnsson
3. SDA
4. Bracco
5. Grundstrom
6. Sandin
7. Korshkov

Have a Chance = Bottom 6 / Bottom Pair / Backup Upside
8. Woll
9. Durzi
10. Rasanen
11. Engvall
12. Gordeev
13. Sparks
14. Rosen
15. Timashov

Depth Notes = Probable AHLers
16. Holl
17. Ozhiganov
18. Nielsen
19. Stotts
20. Brooks
21. Gauthier

Reads to me like we have a replacement for Gardiner should he leave (though maybe D takes a step back in the short term) and have 2 (Johnsson, Grundstrom) or 3 (if we count Korshkov) guys who could replace Brown and/or Hyman in the next 2 years. The others in that tier are farther out. I'd rate that as... not quite good enough? Replacing Gardiner will be hard, so some time for Liljegren to grow into a top-4 role is fine, but we really should have more than 2 guys as options to replace Brown and Hyman before their contracts are up.

So... once again, thanks for holding tight to JVR, Bozak, and Komarov, Lou.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on August 14, 2018, 03:08:47 PM
Besides the overall farm ranking, Pronman's write up is worth a look. I like his categories and added my own interpretation of what they probably mean (based on his description of each player) in the coming years.

Very Good NHL Prospect = Top 6F / Top 4D projection
1. Liljegren

Legit NHL Prospect = Top 6F / Top 4D Upside
2. Johnsson
3. SDA
4. Bracco
5. Grundstrom
6. Sandin
7. Korshkov

Have a Chance = Bottom 6 / Bottom Pair / Backup Upside
8. Woll
9. Durzi
10. Rasanen
11. Engvall
12. Gordeev
13. Sparks
14. Rosen
15. Timashov

Depth Notes = Probable AHLers
16. Holl
17. Ozhiganov
18. Nielsen
19. Stotts
20. Brooks
21. Gauthier

Reads to me like we have a replacement for Gardiner should he leave (though maybe D takes a step back in the short term) and have 2 (Johnsson, Grundstrom) or 3 (if we count Korshkov) guys who could replace Brown and/or Hyman in the next 2 years. The others in that tier are farther out. I'd rate that as... not quite good enough? Replacing Gardiner will be hard, so some time for Liljegren to grow into a top-4 role is fine, but we really should have more than 2 guys as options to replace Brown and Hyman before their contracts are up.

So... once again, thanks for holding tight to JVR, Bozak, and Komarov, Lou.

I mean, for the next 4 years we'll have Kadri, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares -- that's our core, all relatively young (Kadri and Tavares will be 31 at the end of 4 years)  Kadri might go after 4 but we'll have the rest presumably for a few more seasons after that. 

Worrying about replacing Brown and/or Hyman in 2 or 3 seasons seems like small potatoes to me when you have your core forwards locked up.

On D we keep Rielly and Zaitsev (hoping to God he bounces back).  Then you have Dermott and hopefully Liljegren in 2-3 seasons.  That's a top 4, the rest you can fill out with entry level/FA signings.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 15, 2018, 09:18:30 AM
14. Calle Rosn (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/15/17647780/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-prospects-toronto-marlies-ahl-calder-cup)

18. Jordan Subban (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/15/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-18-jordan-subban/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 16, 2018, 11:03:56 AM
PPP: 13. Carl Grundstrom (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/16/17620120/2018-top-25-under-25-13-carl-grundstrom-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)

Grundstrom - Tavares - Marner 2020

Bigger/heavier Soshnikov is probably the most apt description of his style of play.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 17, 2018, 09:53:02 AM
PPP: 12. Rasmus Sandin (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/17/17669044/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-2018-rasmus-sandin-12-nhl-draft-soo-greyhounds)

Rasmus Sandin coming in over someone with greater NHL proximity in Carl Grundstrom might be jarring to some, but Sandin is ridiculously smart (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3N8HpG_XmU) with and without the puck and could conceivably be the next Travis Dermott (whom we already love). Grundstrom tops out as a complementary/dependent winger who brings a scoring touch with tunnel vision.

Nothing flashy. Just taking the puck to where it should go pretty much every time.

I have Sandin higher than the Brown, Carrick tier in my own minimal-effort ranking. This is not to say Brown and Carrick are not smart. Brown has a lot of the off-puck structure down pat, and is almost always in the right spot to capitalize. And Carrick can breakdown the game and the way to play better than some coaches. Sandin's higher value in my mind comes from his projected impact on the game as a top-4 defender that is always funneling the puck into generating opportunity.

TLN: 17. Eemeli Rasanen (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/16/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-17-eemeli-rasanen/)

16. Jesper Lindgren (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/17/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-16-jesper-lindgren/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 18, 2018, 04:23:34 PM
Well, PPP has Carrick and Borgman higher than I did.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: mr grieves on August 19, 2018, 02:03:02 PM
I mean, for the next 4 years we'll have Kadri, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares -- that's our core, all relatively young (Kadri and Tavares will be 31 at the end of 4 years)  Kadri might go after 4 but we'll have the rest presumably for a few more seasons after that. 

Worrying about replacing Brown and/or Hyman in 2 or 3 seasons seems like small potatoes to me when you have your core forwards locked up.

Agreed that having a core in place leaves us with no too much to worry about. The Leafs have done the hard part of getting a contender built... so, when looking at the prospect pool, the main question is whether they have the pieces to sustain it. That's "small potatoes," sure.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 20, 2018, 09:34:14 AM
PPP: 11. Andreas Borgman (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/20/17628276/2018-top-25-under-25-11-andreas-borgman-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)

TLN: 15. Filip Kral (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/20/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-15-filip-kral/)

Quote
At 5v5, Kral was one of the best defencemen in the WHL last year.

Among all WHL defencemen, he sat 15th in 5v5 Pts/GP with 0.44. All but one player of that fourteen above Kral was younger than him New Jersey Devils prospect and Spokane Chiefs teammate Ty Smith. Considering his age and draft eligibility, Kral should have definitely been talked about more within prospect circles.

All of Krals comparables in the WHL that were taken in the 2018 NHL Draft, were taken much earlier than the fifth round. Jett Woo, Ty Smith, Alexander Alexeyev and Calen Addison, all had similar years to Kral at even-strength. Considering the chart below from Mitch Brown, he looks like a very solid bet to make in the later rounds of the draft.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 21, 2018, 09:43:34 AM
PPP: 10. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/21/17753700/2018-t25u25-10-connor-carrick-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-players-profiles)

PPP favours NHL track record, hence Carrick and Borgman being higher.

Also, there is only so much 'market share' on a team for the free-wheelers and risk-takers, so these bottom guys are expected to be boring and safe. I wish it were otherwise.

TLN: 14. Yegor Korshkov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/21/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-14-yegor-korshkov/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 21, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2018/8/21/17763408/toronto-maple-leafs-draft-prospect-martins-dzierkals-joins-dinamo-riga-in-the-khl

Martins Dzierkals wills bes playings ins thes KHLs nexts seasons.

I was kind of hoping he'd make the jump to the AHL, but it's not like he lit up the opposition with the Solar Bears. Playing in a higher tier pro-league will only benefit him, without plugging up our dev teams.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 21, 2018, 03:51:47 PM
PPP: 10. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/21/17753700/2018-t25u25-10-connor-carrick-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-players-profiles)

PPP favours NHL track record, hence Carrick and Borgman being higher.

Also, there is only so much 'market share' on a team for the free-wheelers and risk-takers, so these bottom guys are expected to be boring and safe. I wish it were otherwise.

TLN: 14. Yegor Korshkov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/21/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-14-yegor-korshkov/)

Not exactly a glowing review, and that's from the geek squad over at PPP.

I think they're going to be in tough there at 3rd pairing RHD unless Liljegren really progresses.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on August 21, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
PPP: 10. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/21/17753700/2018-t25u25-10-connor-carrick-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-players-profiles)

PPP favours NHL track record, hence Carrick and Borgman being higher.

Also, there is only so much 'market share' on a team for the free-wheelers and risk-takers, so these bottom guys are expected to be boring and safe. I wish it were otherwise.

TLN: 14. Yegor Korshkov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/21/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-14-yegor-korshkov/)

Not exactly a glowing review, and that's from the geek squad over at PPP.

I think they're going to be in tough there at 3rd pairing RHD unless Liljegren really progresses.

Um.  I don't think the problem is 3rd pair Right D... the problem is 1st pair Right D. 

(ie, Rielly - ???? , Gardiner - Zaitsev, Dermott - Hainsey would be fine if the ???  was solved)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 21, 2018, 05:50:12 PM
PPP: 10. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/21/17753700/2018-t25u25-10-connor-carrick-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-players-profiles)

PPP favours NHL track record, hence Carrick and Borgman being higher.

Also, there is only so much 'market share' on a team for the free-wheelers and risk-takers, so these bottom guys are expected to be boring and safe. I wish it were otherwise.

TLN: 14. Yegor Korshkov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/21/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-14-yegor-korshkov/)

Not exactly a glowing review, and that's from the geek squad over at PPP.

I think they're going to be in tough there at 3rd pairing RHD unless Liljegren really progresses.

Um.  I don't think the problem is 3rd pair Right D... the problem is 1st pair Right D. 

(ie, Rielly - ???? , Gardiner - Zaitsev, Dermott - Hainsey would be fine if the ???  was solved)

Oh I agree, and I think I've posted many times in my support for getting a top pairing RHD...like dozens of times like pretty much everyone here.

I just get the feeling that they aren't going to do anything about that spot, and we'll have Hainsey filling in there again, unfortunately, which means that last RHD spot is probably going to be a rotating cast of borderline NHLers.

Ideally that 3rd pairing is Dermott - Hainsey.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 22, 2018, 09:12:26 AM
PPP: 9. Connor Brown (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/22/17756740/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-9-connor-brown-toronto-maple-leafs-roster-connor-brown-stats)

TLN: 13. Calle Rosen (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/22/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-13-calle-rosen/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on August 22, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
PPP: 10. Connor Carrick (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/21/17753700/2018-t25u25-10-connor-carrick-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-players-profiles)

PPP favours NHL track record, hence Carrick and Borgman being higher.

Also, there is only so much 'market share' on a team for the free-wheelers and risk-takers, so these bottom guys are expected to be boring and safe. I wish it were otherwise.

TLN: 14. Yegor Korshkov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/21/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-14-yegor-korshkov/)

Not exactly a glowing review, and that's from the geek squad over at PPP.

I think they're going to be in tough there at 3rd pairing RHD unless Liljegren really progresses.

Um.  I don't think the problem is 3rd pair Right D... the problem is 1st pair Right D. 

(ie, Rielly - ???? , Gardiner - Zaitsev, Dermott - Hainsey would be fine if the ???  was solved)

Oh I agree, and I think I've posted many times in my support for getting a top pairing RHD...like dozens of times like pretty much everyone here.

I just get the feeling that they aren't going to do anything about that spot, and we'll have Hainsey filling in there again, unfortunately, which means that last RHD spot is probably going to be a rotating cast of borderline NHLers.

Ideally that 3rd pairing is Dermott - Hainsey.

I think the solution to our top pair woes is to forget about handedness and play the following top 4:

Dermott/Gardiner - Rielly
Dermott/Gardiner - Zaitsev

And then the bottom pair is Hainsey + someone who can move the puck up the ice (again, handedness be damned).  Options are Carrick, Ozhighanov, Borgman, Rosen.  Hainsey can play either side.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 22, 2018, 11:08:02 AM
Im with Coco here. I also think Zaitsev will be better served with a partner who defers refers to him offensively.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 22, 2018, 11:09:57 AM
I also think Zaitsev will be better served with a partner who refers to him offensively.

Preferably one wearing a CSKA jersey.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 23, 2018, 08:06:33 AM

Not sure there's going to be enough minutes to spare on the Marlies, so sounds like Sandin will be playing overseas next season.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 23, 2018, 08:21:22 AM
https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2018/8/21/17763408/toronto-maple-leafs-draft-prospect-martins-dzierkals-joins-dinamo-riga-in-the-khl

Martins Dzierkals wills bes playings ins thes KHLs nexts seasons.

I was kind of hoping he'd make the jump to the AHL, but it's not like he lit up the opposition with the Solar Bears. Playing in a higher tier pro-league will only benefit him, without plugging up our dev teams.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/martins-dzierkals-signs-khl-asking-maple-leafs-trade/

According to Dzierkals post-game interview, he has asked the Leafs for a trade due to dissatisfaction with his role in the organization (being slow rolled).
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 23, 2018, 09:12:21 AM
PPP: 8. Andreas Johnsson (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/23/17641250/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-can-andreas-johnsson-win-the-calder-yes-he-can-haters)

Kapanen over Johnsson largely due to age and pedigree.

TLN: 12. Adam Brooks (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/23/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-12-adam-brooks/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on August 23, 2018, 09:18:03 AM
PPP: 8. Andreas Johnsson (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/23/17641250/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-can-andreas-johnsson-win-the-calder-yes-he-can-haters)

Kapanen over Johnsson largely due to age and pedigree.

Kapanen is ranked higher than Johnsson?  Surprised given Johnsson's breakthrough last season complete with the AHL MVP award in the playoffs.  Granted Kapanen didn't play for the Marlies in the playoffs so who knows if he could have been just as good.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 24, 2018, 09:20:35 AM
PPP: 7. Timothy Liljegren (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/24/17755520/toronto-maple-leafs-2018-top-25-under-25-timothy-liljegren-7-marlies-prospects)

Guess who got ranked at his jersey number?

TLN: 11. Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/24/top-20-maple-leaf-prospects-2018-11-semyon-der-arguchintsev/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on August 24, 2018, 09:59:46 AM
PPP: 8. Andreas Johnsson (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/23/17641250/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-can-andreas-johnsson-win-the-calder-yes-he-can-haters)

Kapanen over Johnsson largely due to age and pedigree.

Kapanen is ranked higher than Johnsson?  Surprised given Johnsson's breakthrough last season complete with the AHL MVP award in the playoffs.  Granted Kapanen didn't play for the Marlies in the playoffs so who knows if he could have been just as good.

Kapanen is 2 years younger so the prevailing thought would be Kapanen still has more time to grow his game.  Most would consider them in the same tier and I bet the difference in ranking between these two is pretty tight
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 27, 2018, 09:14:08 AM
PPP: 6. Kasperi Kapanen (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/27/17654460/2018-top-25-under-25-rankings-6-kasperi-kapanen-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-stats-video)

#NeverForget (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58RZAT3BDqg)

As Kapanen has grown more accustomed to the NHL speed and skill and strength, he has realized that he can pull off more than he expected at first. Until the AHL, he has always played up and above his level, so there's that calibration period in his production stats. In the video linked above, you can see how he has gotten really good at using his speed to park his ass on defenders' hands to prevent them from actually defending against him (this goal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avChn0wgO7E) too vs the Preds). He's less likely to go completely around players now, and would rather take a more direct route. He has learned to use his raw speed for speed change separation now, rather than just outright blowing by literally everyone (and thus having no support).

TLN: 10. Trevor Moore (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/27/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-10-trevor-moore/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on August 27, 2018, 12:54:50 PM
Kapanen is going to be a star on the NHL. He's got the 'it' factor, in spades.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on August 28, 2018, 08:35:59 AM
Kapanen is going to be a star on the NHL. He's got the 'it' factor, in spades.

I hope you're right, his speed is unbelievable.  If he can make plays at a high speed he'll be hard to stop.  I still remember that shorthanded goal against the Bruins in game 7 and thinking "that's it, that's the game winner!"  Sigh.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 28, 2018, 09:17:03 AM
PPP: 5. Travis Dermott (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/28/17773998/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25-5-travis-dermott-defense-toronto-marlies-prospect-nhl)

When he was first drafted, I was just excited that our tradedowns netted multiple prospects with projectable skills; of the 3 (Dermott, Bracco, Dzierkals), Dermott was maybe the least exciting to me because it looked like he played a safe game shepherding a stacked forward corps (McDavid, Strome). His speed was middling but his vision looked capable; smooth without panic.

After a couple of years with Barb Underhill and getting targeted assignments on the Marlies, he has surpassed my middling expectations. He is very smart and aggressive without the puck, with the skills to pull off a lot of his riskier maneuvers (open-ice gap up pinches as the last man back!), and he can really carry it almost to Gardiner/Rielly levels. While the raw speed is not quite Rielly-level, his edgework and elusiveness is probably tops on the backend.

TLN: 9. Pierre Engvall (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/28/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-9-pierre-engvall/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bender on August 28, 2018, 11:30:36 AM
PPP: 5. Travis Dermott (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/28/17773998/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25-5-travis-dermott-defense-toronto-marlies-prospect-nhl)

When he was first drafted, I was just excited that our tradedowns netted multiple prospects with projectable skills; of the 3 (Dermott, Bracco, Dzierkals), Dermott was maybe the least exciting to me because it looked like he played a safe game shepherding a stacked forward corps (McDavid, Strome). His speed was middling but his vision looked capable; smooth without panic.

After a couple of years with Barb Underhill and getting targeted assignments on the Marlies, he has surpassed my middling expectations. He is very smart and aggressive without the puck, with the skills to pull off a lot of his riskier maneuvers (open-ice gap up pinches as the last man back!), and he can really carry it almost to Gardiner/Rielly levels. While the raw speed is not quite Rielly-level, his edgework and elusiveness is probably tops on the backend.

I have to agree here. Dermott caught me by complete surprise. The Leafs didn't get into a real groove until Marner got going and Dermott drew into the lineup. I was kind of against the pick at the time thinking he wasn't going to amount to much but I'm pretty glad we have him.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 29, 2018, 10:48:01 AM
PPP: 4. Morgan Rielly (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/29/17790462/2018-top-25-toronto-maple-leafs-prospects-under-25-captain-morgan-rielly-is-4)

No drama here.

TLN: 8. Joseph Woll (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/29/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-8-joseph-woll/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 30, 2018, 09:33:02 AM
PPP:
T2: William Nylander (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/30/17656300/2018-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-william-nylander-analysis-nylander-highlights-mitch-marner)
T2: Mitch Marner (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/30/17656386/2018-toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-under-25-mitch-marner-is-2-mitch-marner-analysis-marner-highlights)

Drammaaaaaaaa averted.

I kind of saw this coming based on the way the schedule shook out, but I had a sliver of a guess that voters might lean towards Marner due to recency and age.

TLN: 7. Dymytro Timashov (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/30/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-7-dmytro-timashov/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 30, 2018, 09:34:43 AM
What an absolute cop-out. I want my money back.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bullfrog on August 30, 2018, 09:54:35 AM
What an absolute cop-out. I want my money back.


PPP's betrayed me for the last time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 30, 2018, 10:05:38 AM
WEBSITE FIGHTTTT

(https://media.giphy.com/media/LpK2LgqQs7ehy/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 30, 2018, 10:21:33 AM

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2018/8/30/17799992/toronto-maple-leafs-announce-2018-rookie-showcase-roster-montreal-canadiens-ottawa-senators-prospect

Good breakdown of the names on the list, especially the ones we haven't had much knowledge of previously. Most, if not all the 'new' names have been on Dubas'/Gilman's radar in some way shape or form (Solar Bears, Marlies, Greyhounds). Most notable is probably Stefan Leblanc (22 y.o. LD), who went undrafted, but signed a Marlies contract for this coming season.

Obviously, our draft picks are out in force, including Jesper Lindgren who most recently departed the Calder Cup run to work out in Sweden, J.J. Piccinich who was drafted forever ago, hasn't made it yet (basically won't), but is still hanging around, and Rasmus Sandin who was our first rounder this year and indicated a preference for playing in the SHL for the coming season (he's already taken some preseason games with Rogle). It'll be a good chance to see how the 2018 class stacks up with the previous picks.

Dubas using the Soo Greyhounds as a fishing hole is interesting (see CHL import draft invitee Roman Pucek). The optics scream nepotism, but he doesn't seem to care (and it's not like it's his only intake route). Judging from afar with 0 information, I'd say if you personally built up a player identification and development program that you trust and has been effective, yeah, why wouldn't you fish there.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 30, 2018, 10:24:50 AM
Can someone tell me if there's a way to turn off phone notifications for non-Nylander related @LeafsPR tweets?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: nutman on August 30, 2018, 04:16:32 PM
Are prospects not players in our system, but not yet on the team?. If so them why are players on the Leafs on this list.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Andy on August 30, 2018, 05:08:51 PM
Are prospects not players in our system, but not yet on the team?. If so them why are players on the Leafs on this list.

It's the top 25 under 25 list so anyone under 25 can make the list.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 30, 2018, 06:29:23 PM
Are prospects not players in our system, but not yet on the team?. If so them why are players on the Leafs on this list.

It's the top 25 under 25 list so anyone under 25 can make the list.

Kudos for taking 11 pages to get to this topic again.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: nutman on August 31, 2018, 05:18:48 AM
Well then they should not be called prospects. Imo if you are on the Leafs you are not a prospect, you are one of the team.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 31, 2018, 08:22:30 AM
Well then they should not be called prospects. Imo if you are on the Leafs you are not a prospect, you are one of the team.

 :)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 31, 2018, 09:37:43 AM
PPP: 1. Auston Matthews (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-top-25-prospects-under-25/2018/8/31/17791840/toronto-maple-leafs-nhl-top-25-under-25-auston-matthews-prospects)

#Fremulon #NotAProspect
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Coco-puffs on August 31, 2018, 09:57:03 AM
Are prospects not players in our system, but not yet on the team?. If so them why are players on the Leafs on this list.

This thread is labelled prospects.  It includes links and discussion regarding prospects and prospect-like lists.  The T25U25 that PPP puts out is simply that, the top 25 players in the organization that are under 25.  They don't call it a prospects list.  Instead of starting a new thread to discuss that specific list from PPP, we've decided to include it in this thread since the majority of the list would be considered prospects.  We're sorry if that bothers you so much.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 31, 2018, 10:12:38 AM
In the game of life aren't we all really just prospects?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 31, 2018, 10:47:07 AM
Its a total logjam, I tells ya.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 31, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
Feels good, man.

Habs Eyes on the Prize T25U25 #1 (https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/top-25-under-25/2018/8/31/17789856/jonathan-drouin-2018-montreal-canadiens-top-25-under-25-prospect-profile-projection-scouting-stats)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on August 31, 2018, 05:17:25 PM
You're more knowledgeable on this stuff herman, as well as others here, so who has the best up and coming system in NHL hockey at the moment?

I know the Leafs have a hell of a young core under 25, but who are they up against in the next 4-5 years, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on August 31, 2018, 06:28:16 PM
Winnipeg for sure: Scheifele (25), Ehlers, Connor, Laine, Trouba (if they can keep him)
Philly looks very good: Couturier (25), Gostisbehere, Provarov, Konecny, Patrick, Sanheim
Columbus: Jones, Werenski, Dubois, Wennberg
Buffalo now: Eichel, Dahlin, Mittelsadt, Reinhart, Nylander (sort of)
Vancouver, still missing top flight D and C but halfway there with: Boeser, Pettersson, Horvat. Theyll still screw it up though.
Vegas has a nice start: Karlsson (25), Tuch, Miller (25), Theodore, Brannstrom, Hague, Suzuki, Glass

There's probably one or two more that I'm less familiar with.

Leafs in comparison: Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Liljegren, Dermott, Kapanen/Johnsson/Brown sort of. What really helps the Leafs is the next layer up of veterans are Tavares, Kadri, Gardiner who all still drive results and will for the next 3-4 years at least.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on September 01, 2018, 02:52:49 PM
Just reading a Star article about Dermott, it was saying the Subbans lad was looking good the "Jordan Subban looked tremendous at the BioSteel camp this week, and could turn heads at the Leafs camp"
Lets hope he turns out to be a pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 02, 2018, 12:46:22 AM
Are prospects not players in our system, but not yet on the team?. If so them why are players on the Leafs on this list.

This thread is labelled prospects.  It includes links and discussion regarding prospects and prospect-like lists.  The T25U25 that PPP puts out is simply that, the top 25 players in the organization that are under 25.  They don't call it a prospects list.  Instead of starting a new thread to discuss that specific list from PPP, we've decided to include it in this thread since the majority of the list would be considered prospects.  We're sorry if that bothers you so much.

I'm going to add a non-semantic argument to this, because it comes up pretty much every year from someone who prefers to draw distinct lines around the NHL and it's worth discussing.

Justin Bourne recently wrote about the distinction between NHL and AHL players (https://theathletic.com/84966/2017/08/16/bourne-a-closer-look-at-who-makes-the-nhl-who-falls-short-and-why/).

Quote
Hockey talent isnt neatly split into two columns: one NHL and one AHL. Instead its more like two sides of a folded piece of paper thats being cut down the middle by a toddler it veers in unpredictable ways. Its the same in deciding who gets a shot in the NHL and who doesnt. Around the fringes, an awful lot comes down to chance.

For the players along the fold, there are many factors in determining what makes them millionaires and what doesnt.  Those factors include: Being drafted or not (the bias of being drafted in the minds of management is bizarrely powerful given the low success rates of late round picks), the late bloomer versus junior name player and player familiarity to a GM with a roster hole. Thats not even taking into account things like salary, age, character, playing styles, team needs, off-ice habits and more. If enough of those boxes are checked for a team with a specific need, it can supersede hockey ability.

When we do a prospect ranking, or development program ranking, the ultimate goal is to gauge how healthy the talent pool that is on the upward half of their development curves is because that's the measurement of future success, not delineating whether a player qualifies as a prospect due to NHL time served. And that means taking into account players that have already exceeded the Calder trophy requirements alongside those that have not. Roster decisions are fickle and rife with obvious bias or situational criteria.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 02, 2018, 09:25:42 AM
Winnipeg for sure: Scheifele (25), Ehlers, Connor, Laine, Trouba (if they can keep him)
Philly looks very good: Couturier (25), Gostisbehere, Provarov, Konecny, Patrick, Sanheim
Columbus: Jones, Werenski, Dubois, Wennberg
Buffalo now: Eichel, Dahlin, Mittelsadt, Reinhart, Nylander (sort of)
Vancouver, still missing top flight D and C but halfway there with: Boeser, Pettersson, Horvat. Theyll still screw it up though.
Vegas has a nice start: Karlsson (25), Tuch, Miller (25), Theodore, Brannstrom, Hague, Suzuki, Glass

There's probably one or two more that I'm less familiar with.

A team I think is worth mentioning is Colorado. Mackinnon is only 23, Rantanen is 21, Landeskog is 25 and then they've got Jost, Makar and Ottawa's 1st coming up.

Carolina and Calgary also strike me as having pretty strong groups.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 02, 2018, 09:35:04 AM
A team I think is worth mentioning is Colorado. Mackinnon is only 23, Rantanen is 21, Landeskog is 25 and then they've got Jost, Makar and Ottawa's 1st coming up.

Carolina and Calgary also strike me as having pretty strong groups.

How could I forget Colorado?! They also have Girard thanks to the Duchene deal.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 08, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 08, 2018, 04:36:30 PM
2-2 after 2.
To a man, the Baby Leafs defense refuses to chip the puck out of their own zone. Short chip passes or skating is the way theyre going.

Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 08, 2018, 05:12:19 PM
Invalid Tweet ID
Omg Bracco to Grundstrom
Invalid Tweet ID
Brooks with the PP dagger with 23s to go. 5-4 Leafs
Invalid Tweet ID
Lol sens tie on the next shift.
Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 08, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
Quick OT goes sideways for the Baby Leafs.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 08, 2018, 05:30:36 PM
Good: Der-Arguchintsev, Bracco, Brooks, Grundstrom, Liljegren, Plouffe, Gordeev, Durzi

Not good: Nielsen, Scott
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on September 08, 2018, 05:52:34 PM
Thanks herman, so what overreaching conclusions should we settle on here?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 08, 2018, 07:10:55 PM
Thanks herman, so what overreaching conclusions should we settle on here?

sens > Leafs
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on September 08, 2018, 08:59:55 PM
We stink man
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on September 09, 2018, 12:00:39 PM
Good: Der-Arguchintsev, Bracco, Brooks, Grundstrom, Liljegren, Plouffe, Gordeev, Durzi

Not good: Nielsen, Scott
Didn't see the game, most interested in Gordeev and his progress, further thoughts Herman?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 09, 2018, 01:30:25 PM
Good: Der-Arguchintsev, Bracco, Brooks, Grundstrom, Liljegren, Plouffe, Gordeev, Durzi

Not good: Nielsen, Scott
Didn't see the game, most interested in Gordeev and his progress, further thoughts Herman?

Still raw but uses his size and reach well. When hes in good position its hard to get the puck with control around him. He and Hollowell were used somewhat sparingly so I cant say much more.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 09, 2018, 03:36:57 PM
https://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/camp-ch/onglet/webdiffusion

I'm coming in late to the game but it's currently 2-0 Leafs, and there is a delay in the game as one of the Canadiens' prospects is being stretchered off the ice.
Invalid Tweet ID
Goals of the period courtesy of Brooks and Bracco (see tweet thread);
Invalid Tweet ID
They both look to be a step ahead of most of the players on the ice.
Edit: looks like thats Grundstrom on the first goal, off Liljegrens rebound.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 09, 2018, 04:09:05 PM
Period begins with the Habs taking runs at Bracco. Nielsen drops the mitts to defend his littler friend.

Bouthillier is in net (Scott is out sick) and just stoned a 2-0 break to bail out Sandins missed poke at centre.
Invalid Tweet ID
Not much else happened in period 2, other than the Habs victimizing Nielsen's footspeed for a goal.

This is nice Liljegren action:
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 09, 2018, 05:02:49 PM
We are nearly halfway into the third in a tie game. When I started watching the Leafs had 7 shots on goal. They currently have 10.

Lol, shot 11 is the tiebreaker. And shot 12 was nearly in the net as well except McNiven just got a piece of it.

Thats SDA with that Royal Road pass for the goal.
Invalid Tweet ID
Grundstrom closes it out with an empty netter.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on September 09, 2018, 08:59:06 PM
Habs rookies 0-2, bueno.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 10, 2018, 10:14:55 AM
I try not to care a lot about rookie tournaments because they're generally pointless and more often than not showcase idiot prospects throwing incredibly dangerous hits at other prospects to try and stand out (pretty sure more than 1 prospect has already been taken off the ice via a stretcher in this tournament) than they do actual skill, but watching SDA clown a Habs prospect like this makes me smile:

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 10, 2018, 02:14:50 PM

Didnt look great on the scoresheet, but heres a breakdown of a lot of the little things that Sandin does that, over the course of a season, tilts results in his teams favour. Its the type of player (defensemen in particular) that Dubas targets instead of outright point shot scorers.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on September 10, 2018, 07:14:23 PM
Does anyone have an update on that guy who was taken off the ice after that vicious hit. I heard he was moving his hands and legs than God. What a harebrained play
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on September 10, 2018, 07:47:42 PM
Does anyone have an update on that guy who was taken off the ice after that vicious hit. I heard he was moving his hands and legs than God. What a harebrained play
?s=19
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 11, 2018, 06:13:43 PM

Not that we were going to see him anytime soon anyway.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on September 11, 2018, 07:13:45 PM
Does anyone have an update on that guy who was taken off the ice after that vicious hit. I heard he was moving his hands and legs than God. What a harebrained play
?s=19

Great article about the guy that hit the poor Montreal player in the Athletic today.  Seems the guy is a good prospect that did a very stupid play.  6'5" with skating ability and will probably play for the Marlies.  Probably a bonehead move on his part, but Hudson​ Elynuiks​ is a project and deserves another chance.  His father was a multi point player for Winnipeg in there first incarnation for many years.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 17, 2018, 03:42:15 PM

Hey they played him!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on September 18, 2018, 09:36:31 AM
I went away on vacation for a bit and completely forgot about this:
TLN: Top 20 Prospects
6. Sean Durzi (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/08/31/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-6-sean-durzi/)
5. Jeremy Bracco (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/03/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2018-5-jeremy-bracco/)
4. Rasmus Sandin (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/04/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-4-rasmus-sandin/)
3. Carl Grundstrom (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/05/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-3-carl-grundstrom/)
2. Andreas Johnsson (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/06/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-2-andreas-johnsson/)
1. Timothy Liljegren (https://mapleleafsnation.com/2018/09/07/top-20-maple-leafs-prospects-1-timothy-liljegren/)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on September 18, 2018, 12:36:13 PM
strange, I mention Hollowell above and he is called back due to something with Gardner
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 25, 2018, 08:37:57 AM

Well that's unfortunate.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on September 25, 2018, 02:33:04 PM
Good article about Engvall in the Athletic today.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on October 25, 2018, 11:01:22 AM
Who knows how long this will last, but right now:
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on November 02, 2018, 01:36:47 PM
GREAT Scott!!!

On another note, the Flint Firebirds are playing with a 9 forwards and 5 Defensemen, its being called a disaster.  It can't be helping Gordeev at all to be there.  Don't know what we can do as MLF Alumni but it seems the lad should be traded or moved to a better situation. Out of all the giants we drafted a few years back I seem to have highest hope for him. To bad we just can't move him to the Growlers to start him off.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 05, 2018, 12:10:51 PM

Mac Hollowell is the OHL defenceman of the month (Oct). He has 17 pts in 15 games so far. Of course hes 20, so dummying the OHL is somewhat expected.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 15, 2018, 12:12:01 AM
Who knows how long this will last, but right now:

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bender on November 15, 2018, 09:02:15 AM
Who knows how long this will last, but right now:


So does this make him a legit goaltending prospect for us? I mean, good numbers are obviously good, but is there anything else we can analyze?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 15, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
So does this make him a legit goaltending prospect for us? I mean, good numbers are obviously good, but is there anything else we can analyze?

So I know next to nothing about the player or the team other than what I'm googling right now. I rememeber he's 6'3" the whole game, but with the same wingspan as 6'7" defense prospect Eemeli Rasanen.

His draft year boxcar numbers were bordering on poop emoji status due to his team's general ineptitude (https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/toronto-maple-leafs-prospects/2017/7/3/15892606/toronto-maple-leafs-2017-nhl-entry-draft-fourth-round-pick-goalie-prospect-ian-scott). I'm not sure what changed specifically for him this past season, other than Scott spending time with the Marlies dev team for the duration of the Calder Cup run.

For the Prince Albert Raiders, they picked up Brett Leason (https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/257755/brett-leason) (undrafted, 19 yr old C/RW) partway through last season, and for some reason he has exploded on offense this season. Yeah he's a big dude (6'4, 200+ lbs) but he was big last year too. He has literally bombed past his previous two seasons' point totals in less than 1/3 of the games played at an over 2 pts per game rate.  The Raiders don't really have high end forwards to play off of either, so he's doing this largely on his own and drawing attention from Team Canada for the World Juniors. 2019 will be his final kick at getting drafted.

Will both these performances last the duration of the season? Unlikely. Is it fun? Yes.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 16, 2018, 10:44:42 PM
Okay this is getting ridiculous (and wonderful)

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on November 17, 2018, 07:06:12 PM
Okay this is getting ridiculous (and wonderful)

And I thought he was trying to pass it to Marner ;)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 18, 2018, 12:21:12 AM
Ian Scott started again today (B2B) and pitched his fourth shutout of the season.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 19, 2018, 10:45:40 AM
https://theathletic.com/651871/2018/11/15/wheeler-the-complete-maple-leafs-prospect-rankings-november-2018-edition/

It's a lot of work to stay abreast of what's going on in the pipeline; most people don't care unless the NHL team is struggling/rebuilding (people are clamoring for Detroit prospect coverage).

Prospects I think are NHL ready today:
Sandin - he's very Dermotty, but far less risky; he's just smart, smart, smart about his positioning, angles, and reading of the game. Modern defensive defenseman. Just needs work on adding speed and it wouldn't hurt to get stronger.

Marchment - not a prospect in terms of age, but he has blossomed under the dev team and Marlies coaching staff. He adds an element that the Leafs do not have (he's a poop disturber in a power forward build) and would be slotting in at a low-leverage position.

Moore - not a prospect in terms of age, but other than his AHL scoring levels, I still maintain he's a left shot Connor Brown with far better wheels. He's an auto zone exit, entry, and a puck hound in the slot.

Prospects who I think are a year away:
Liljegren - still needs work to improve the range on some of his very good tools and playing dependably on a consistent basis. Best stretch passer in the system outside of Gardiner, and possibly already better (hard to tell with the different level of recipients).

Grundstrom - sounds like he's been working on his passing, which would make him a less simplistic attacker.

Engvall - He played shutdown minutes with Gauthier for the Marlies on their stretch drive last season, and offers that deployment some semblance of offense. He's deceptively fast for 6'4" and the additional reach just makes him all the faster on pucks.

Prospects I am very intrigued by:
Ian Scott - as you can see in the previous posts, Ian Scott found something during his time with the Marlies and it has translated to a more patient and positionally sound goaltender, basically stonewalling the WHL.

Sean Durzi - I think he's going to be a very fun add to the Marlies after the OHL playoffs are done, if the Marlies make it that far that is.

Mac Hollowell - He's too fast (of feet and mind) for the OHL; with the loss of Sandin and Timmins in the Soo, he now gets top offensive opportunities to round out his repertoire.

Pontus Holmberg - Wheeler pays some special attention to Holmberg; he appears to be of a similar mold as Johnsson, Brown, Moore, etc. Smart speed/space management.

Prospects I think we should have traded already:
Nielsen
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 23, 2018, 11:11:14 PM
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on November 29, 2018, 10:51:48 PM
What the heck, Ian Scott.

Scott made 31 saves en route to a 6-3 victory to extend their winning streak to 18 games, and a 25-1 team record (Scott is 21-1).

Brett Leason meanwhile stretched his point streak to 26 games with 3 assists.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 07:33:23 AM
Marlies won 7-4 yesterday

Sandin really impressed me, that guy looks poised beyond his years. I think he'll be better than Lilegejren. Speaking of the Lilly-pad he got hurt in the first when falling awkwardly, he tried coming back in the 2nd to play but didn't take a regular shift and then didn't play the rest of the way

Bracco had 2 goals, looked pretty good. Also was impressed by Engvall and Grundstrom.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 02, 2018, 03:12:38 PM
Marlies won 7-4 yesterday

Sandin really impressed me, that guy looks poised beyond his years. I think he'll be better than Lilegejren. Speaking of the Lilly-pad he got hurt in the first when falling awkwardly, he tried coming back in the 2nd to play but didn't take a regular shift and then didn't play the rest of the way

Bracco had 2 goals, looked pretty good. Also was impressed by Engvall and Grundstrom.
Does Sandin look like he could make the jump next year? Is he playing sheltered minutes down there?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 03:42:21 PM
Marlies won 7-4 yesterday

Sandin really impressed me, that guy looks poised beyond his years. I think he'll be better than Lilegejren. Speaking of the Lilly-pad he got hurt in the first when falling awkwardly, he tried coming back in the 2nd to play but didn't take a regular shift and then didn't play the rest of the way

Bracco had 2 goals, looked pretty good. Also was impressed by Engvall and Grundstrom.
Does Sandin look like he could make the jump next year? Is he playing sheltered minutes down there?
I'm not sure if I could break down sheltered minutes for the game, I mean he was out there as often as any other dman yesterday from what I could tell so I'm sure he could probably play sheltered NHL minutes next season on your 3rd pair. He just looks so calm and confident with the puck. I think he's another Dermott
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 02, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
Does Sandin look like he could make the jump next year? Is he playing sheltered minutes down there?

I have to think that Sandin's development will mostly follow the young guys who were before him, which is limited/sheltered minutes in season 1 and then starting season 2 in a more top line/pairing role and going from there. Johnsson, Dermott, Kapanen, and Liljegren all mostly went through that same process.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 05:52:47 PM
Does Sandin look like he could make the jump next year? Is he playing sheltered minutes down there?

I have to think that Sandin's development will mostly follow the young guys who were before him, which is limited/sheltered minutes in season 1 and then starting season 2 in a more top line/pairing role and going from there. Johnsson, Dermott, Kapanen, and Liljegren all mostly went through that same process.
I've heard more glowing reports about Sandin already in his first season than Liljegren though. Could be Sandin was better adjusted to playing on the smaller ice with his time in the OHL vs Liljegren playing in Sweden previously. I think he's already ahead of Timothy
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on December 02, 2018, 06:37:25 PM
Does Sandin look like he could make the jump next year? Is he playing sheltered minutes down there?

I have to think that Sandin's development will mostly follow the young guys who were before him, which is limited/sheltered minutes in season 1 and then starting season 2 in a more top line/pairing role and going from there. Johnsson, Dermott, Kapanen, and Liljegren all mostly went through that same process.
I've heard more glowing reports about Sandin already in his first season than Liljegren though. Could be Sandin was better adjusted to playing on the smaller ice with his time in the OHL vs Liljegren playing in Sweden previously. I think he's already ahead of Timothy
In all the Sandin clips I have seen, he has extreme poise with the puck, knows how to turn away from the offence with a deft move or turn and then proceeds to carry the puck to a place where it makes sense to pass it, in other words on his time. I think he is going to make Lilypad look very green for a long time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on December 02, 2018, 07:24:29 PM
Marlies won 7-4 yesterday

Sandin really impressed me, that guy looks poised beyond his years. I think he'll be better than Lilegejren. Speaking of the Lilly-pad he got hurt in the first when falling awkwardly, he tried coming back in the 2nd to play but didn't take a regular shift and then didn't play the rest of the way

Bracco had 2 goals, looked pretty good. Also was impressed by Engvall and Grundstrom.
Does Sandin look like he could make the jump next year? Is he playing sheltered minutes down there?
I'm not sure if I could break down sheltered minutes for the game, I mean he was out there as often as any other dman yesterday from what I could tell so I'm sure he could probably play sheltered NHL minutes next season on your 3rd pair. He just looks so calm and confident with the puck. I think he's another Dermott
Thx Zee...He def sounds promising.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 02, 2018, 07:36:22 PM
Ian Scott is up to 22-1 on the year. Thats like Laine goals and assists.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on December 02, 2018, 08:07:25 PM
Ian Scott is up to 22-1 on the year. Thats like Laine goals and assists.
I want see how he does in the world Juniors
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frycer14 on December 02, 2018, 08:15:16 PM
That's great to hear about Sandin. I don't really follow the Marlies, but I was blown away by his composure during the pre-season... doesn't surprise me at all he's jumped above Liljegren.

I think he'll prove to be a really valuable pick, especially if Gardiner moves on.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 04, 2018, 04:56:07 PM
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on December 04, 2018, 05:24:16 PM
Great Scott!!!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 05, 2018, 10:10:10 AM
The streak has been broken at 19 games. Scott lost in a shootout last night and is now 22-0-1.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Arn on December 06, 2018, 10:35:09 AM
A write up on Scott:

https://www.eprinkside.com/2018/12/6/the-rise-of-ian-scott

Quote
No one else really wanted to go in net, so I kind of just stepped up and just started doing it full time.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 14, 2018, 02:11:17 PM

Well deserved
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on December 14, 2018, 04:39:17 PM
A write up on Scott:

https://www.eprinkside.com/2018/12/6/the-rise-of-ian-scott

Quote
No one else really wanted to go in net, so I kind of just stepped up and just started doing it full time.

I feel like a lot of goalies got into the position sort of by picking the short-straw.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 15, 2018, 12:42:48 AM
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/12/14/rasmus-sandin-is-turning-heads-in-the-american-hockey-league/

An updated look at Sandin in the AHL to show off whats impressive about his game as an 18 year old in a professional mens league.

He plays a lot like a football back. He creates a lot of space and time for his teammates by drawing in forecheckers with his patience and then slipping by them with little reversals or between the legs passes into soft ice for his partner or forwards.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Frank E on December 15, 2018, 10:59:49 AM
I think this is the first Canada WJC goalie the Leafs have had since Pogge?

Never forget.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 15, 2018, 11:28:11 AM
I think this is the first Canada WJC goalie the Leafs have had since Pogge?

Never forget.

For Canada, yes. The last Leaf goaltender prospect in the tournament was Joseph Woll last year for the US.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: princedpw on December 15, 2018, 11:34:01 AM
It would be really awesome if Sandin could up his skating and give us a right-handed Dermott next year.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 15, 2018, 11:39:03 AM
It would be really awesome if Sandin could up his skating and give us a right-handed Dermott next year.

He'd have to switch shooting sides to accomplish that.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 15, 2018, 11:41:12 AM
It would be really awesome if Sandin could up his skating and give us a right-handed Dermott next year.

He'd have to switch shooting sides to accomplish that.

Shouldn't be an issue! Imagine the versatility of a switch shooting defenseman
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 15, 2018, 11:49:22 AM
It would be really awesome if Sandin could up his skating and give us a right-handed Dermott next year.

He'd have to switch shooting sides to accomplish that.

Shouldn't be an issue! Imagine the versatility of a switch shooting defenseman

Flat blades are back!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 19, 2018, 11:04:51 PM
The Marlies started a line brawl tonight.

Speaking of fights:
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 20, 2018, 10:09:05 AM
Speaking of fights:

When I initially read this tweet I assumed it was Dubas pushing Keefe to try and stick with a 5-man PP group. Bourne clarified:

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 20, 2018, 10:50:08 AM
If they were forced into a forward needs to play D situation, as they semi-were last night, Sheldon Keefe has selected Trevor Moore as the first candidate.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on December 20, 2018, 11:29:33 AM
Ya Moore on our defence, I like it, probably would beat Hainsey out right now.LOL

Did you see Engvall roundhouse punching that guy, long reach for the good hits.  Surprised me a lot.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 20, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Ya Moore on our defence, I like it, probably would beat Hainsey out right now.LOL

Did you see Engvall roundhouse punching that guy, long reach for the good hits.  Surprised me a lot.


Its so dumb.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on December 21, 2018, 10:16:58 AM
actually I think fighting should be banned  in all sports including boxing.  However a primal part of me loved watching Engvall flailing away at that guy. Looked like an Albatros that was pissed off.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 22, 2018, 08:14:19 AM
Who threw that original hit? He should of been dummied!

While I think the fight looks ridiculous, I love the Marlies goalie keeping order and then when the Devils goalie comes down, he basically tells him to go back to his home.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on December 22, 2018, 08:41:17 AM
Who threw that original hit? He should of been dummied!

While I think the fight looks ridiculous, I love the Marlies goalie keeping order and then when the Devils goalie comes down, he basically tells him to go back to his home.

Morgan Klimchuk (Andrew Nielsen trade) threw that disgusting hit and has since been suspended 3 games.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: OldTimeHockey on December 23, 2018, 08:19:13 AM
Who threw that original hit? He should of been dummied!

While I think the fight looks ridiculous, I love the Marlies goalie keeping order and then when the Devils goalie comes down, he basically tells him to go back to his home.

Morgan Klimchuk (Andrew Nielsen trade) threw that disgusting hit and has since been suspended 3 games.

I'm surprised he only got 3!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on January 06, 2019, 11:08:59 AM
Gordeev is finally freed from Flint and will play for the Guelph Storm.  Hopefully he can flourish there with much better teammates.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on January 09, 2019, 10:34:29 AM

Look who is joining Gordeev!

This trade was fraught with drama as it was nearly kiboshed while the players were already in transit. Suzuki/Durzi (a package deal, per Suzuki's request) were also nearly picked up by Sault Ste. Marie instead earlier in the day.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on January 09, 2019, 10:36:55 AM
Will be good to see Durzi and Gordeev playing for the same team. Hopefully Gordeev can flourish in the new surroundings playing for a contending team.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on January 09, 2019, 10:43:04 AM
Will be good to see Durzi and Gordeev playing for the same team. Hopefully Gordeev can flourish in the new surroundings playing for a contending team.

I heard Gordeev punched a ref this season, any details around that?  Accidental?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on January 09, 2019, 10:50:07 AM
Will be good to see Durzi and Gordeev playing for the same team. Hopefully Gordeev can flourish in the new surroundings playing for a contending team.

I heard Gordeev punched a ref this season, any details around that?  Accidental?

Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on January 09, 2019, 11:07:55 AM
Will be good to see Durzi and Gordeev playing for the same team. Hopefully Gordeev can flourish in the new surroundings playing for a contending team.

I heard Gordeev punched a ref this season, any details around that?  Accidental?


Looks like an accident to me.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 09, 2019, 11:25:50 AM
Looks like an accident to me.

That's exactly what he wanted you to think.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on January 09, 2019, 11:37:48 AM
LOL 8)
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on January 23, 2019, 11:51:19 AM
Nice take on Gordeev and Durzi from their Guelph Storm Coach on PPP today.  This Coach drafted Gordeev in Hamilton and took him to Flint when he was GM there, then brought him to Guelph, so he really believes in the kid.  Also has high praise for Durzi, would be nice if both of them can make the leap in a couple of years.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on February 04, 2019, 11:34:13 AM
Sean Durzi who?  This is from PPP;

Mac Hollowell made us all forgot about Sean Durzi last night when the single handily gave the Greyhounds a win over the Oshawa Generals by scoring three straight goals to come back from a 2-0 deficit.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: skrackle on February 04, 2019, 07:27:57 PM
Durzi was traded to L.A. as part of the Muzzin deal, was he not?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 04, 2019, 07:44:51 PM
Yup he was. The point was that Hollowell's elevated play made it easier for the Leafs to include Durzi in the Muzz trade.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on February 04, 2019, 07:48:44 PM
Yup he was. The point was that Hollowell's elevated play made it easier for the Leafs to include Durzi in the Muzz trade.
Both Hollowell and Durzi are overage players in junior so they should both be doing very well (which they are). It's tough to predict if either ever make it to the NHL
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 04, 2019, 07:56:22 PM
But Hollowell's having a better offensive year. Who knows if either will make the NHL but Mac H is looking pretty good. He also plays for the Soo..
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Bender on February 04, 2019, 08:55:04 PM
But Hollowell's having a better offensive year. Who knows if either will make the NHL but Mac H is looking pretty good. He also plays for the Soo..
Yeah I mean aren't they kind of interchangable? We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 04, 2019, 09:10:24 PM
But Hollowell's having a better offensive year. Who knows if either will make the NHL but Mac H is looking pretty good. He also plays for the Soo..
Yeah I mean aren't they kind of interchangable? We'll see I guess.
I think Mac H has made better gains but we'll see is right.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on February 04, 2019, 10:41:36 PM
Probably drafted by Boy Wonder at the Soo, so you know the Dubas gold dust is all over him. Seem to remind me of Ian White this kid does.  But with a much better offensive upside.

Its starting to look like Muzzin was a steal, why would they give him up with that deal another year at 4M
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: hockeyfan1 on February 19, 2019, 01:42:41 AM
Leafs prospect rankings:  mid-season report


Source:  @scottwheeler
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 19, 2019, 09:28:13 AM
Leafs prospect rankings:  mid-season report


Source:  @scottwheeler

To the best of my knowledge Scott never posted the entire list to his twitter, so the source is actually the Athletic article... which is behind a paywall... and we've gone over how to properly post articles/information from there before: https://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=4707.0
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on February 19, 2019, 12:39:09 PM
Why didn't the Leafs pick Debrincat with the 2nd pick in 2016? I'm sure Hunter had his reasons for Korshkov however misguided they may have been
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 19, 2019, 12:49:10 PM
Why didn't the Leafs pick Debrincat with the 2nd pick in 2016? I'm sure Hunter had his reasons for Korshkov however misguided they may have been
A lot of teams passed on him when all he did was put up good numbers in the OHL. Maybe it was his size that scared them off? Who knows. Problem tho, which I guess is a good thing,  he's up after next year and there's no way we could have afforded to keep him and everyone else. Saw him play against Mississauga a few times. He def stood out to me.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 19, 2019, 12:54:24 PM
A lot of teams passed on him when all he did was put up good numbers in the OHL. Maybe it was his size that scared them off?

There's two ways to look at that. One, it seems unlikely that a year after drafting Marner and various tiny wingers that DeBrincat's size would have put them off that much.

The other though is that because they just got done drafting Marner and Bracco and the rest they were looking for size when they already had scoring punch.

The Korshkov pick was terrible and I said so at the time but honestly, I don't think DeBrincat moves the needle much here.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on February 19, 2019, 02:04:13 PM
Why didn't the Leafs pick Debrincat with the 2nd pick in 2016? I'm sure Hunter had his reasons for Korshkov however misguided they may have been
A lot of teams passed on him when all he did was put up good numbers in the OHL. Maybe it was his size that scared them off? Who knows. Problem tho, which I guess is a good thing,  he's up after next year and there's no way we could have afforded to keep him and everyone else. Saw him play against Mississauga a few times. He def stood out to me.

We'll have no issue fitting Korshkov under the cap amirite!!?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: bustaheims on February 19, 2019, 02:06:59 PM
The Korshkov pick was terrible and I said so at the time but honestly, I don't think DeBrincat moves the needle much here.

If anything, having DeBrincat in the fold means either Kapanen or Johnsson don't crack the NHL roster yet or have been traded to try to fill another area. We'd also probably be even more concerned about the cap crunch facing the team this summer, and the team would definitely end up having to move someone - likely DeBrincat. You're right in that having him on the roster now probably doesn't move the needle much, but, the assets that could have been picked up by moving him this summer might have in the future.

That being said, I don't think he gets the same opportunity here as he has in Chicago, so, his value probably wouldn't be as high.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on February 19, 2019, 02:14:23 PM
The Korshkov pick was terrible and I said so at the time but honestly, I don't think DeBrincat moves the needle much here.

If anything, having DeBrincat in the fold means either Kapanen or Johnsson don't crack the NHL roster yet or have been traded to try to fill another area. We'd also probably be even more concerned about the cap crunch facing the team this summer, and the team would definitely end up having to move someone - likely DeBrincat. You're right in that having him on the roster now probably doesn't move the needle much, but, the assets that could have been picked up by moving him this summer might have in the future.

That being said, I don't think he gets the same opportunity here as he has in Chicago, so, his value probably wouldn't be as high.

Maybe, but I don't think having too many good players would ever be a problem that people worry about.   Debrincat scored 28 last season and is on pace for 44 this year, that talent would shine through at some point even if he hadn't gotten the same opportunity with the Leafs.  I would assume he would be ripping it up in the AHL with the Marlies if he didn't crack the Leafs line up right away and we'd know we have a player there.  Korshkov...well....
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 19, 2019, 02:38:46 PM
If anything, having DeBrincat in the fold means either Kapanen or Johnsson don't crack the NHL roster yet or have been traded to try to fill another area. We'd also probably be even more concerned about the cap crunch facing the team this summer, and the team would definitely end up having to move someone - likely DeBrincat. You're right in that having him on the roster now probably doesn't move the needle much, but, the assets that could have been picked up by moving him this summer might have in the future.

That being said, I don't think he gets the same opportunity here as he has in Chicago, so, his value probably wouldn't be as high.

I'm very much with you that they should have picked him instead of Korshkov. That said, I really don't think that just filling a team with offensively talented players leads to a cumulative effect. There's still just one puck.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Zee on July 23, 2019, 01:23:40 PM

Looks like a nod to Belfour
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Guilt Trip on July 23, 2019, 02:55:56 PM

Looks like a nod to Belfour
Or from where he played. Boston College Eagles.
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: herman on July 23, 2019, 03:13:38 PM
Can't a guy just love raptors and wear it on his face without any particular reason?
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on July 23, 2019, 03:37:20 PM
Cool, I just moved to BC and have a family of Eagles that fly around our balcony most days. They are the most beautiful flyers!  Nice mask.   Hope he can become The Wall!
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 23, 2019, 07:40:52 PM
Good-looking mask.  Which reminds me of the baby or young hawk that landed on our condo terrazzo last year.  It seemed in distress, alternating between gripping the ledge and banging the glass.  It kept cawing and looking as though it was trying to say something.  Our concierge confirmed it really was a baby hawk, and called animal services, but by then the hawk flew away.

It wasnt an eagle but it was a bird of prey, a raptor, and a beautiful one, too. 
Title: Re: Ranking Prospects 2018-19
Post by: Highlander on July 24, 2019, 02:09:47 PM
They set up nests on the top of telephone poles, you can see them nesting quite easily. Lots of Osprey and other birds of pray. BC may mean bring cash but it is one beautiful place.  Strange thing is all the pubs have liquor stores attached, the pricing is confusing as hell as they publish a price but don't mention the tax or bottle deposit...Wish it was like the LCBO...