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Just for Fun => All Sports But Hockey => Topic started by: Nik on July 12, 2011, 10:46:20 PM

Title: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 12, 2011, 10:46:20 PM
Just thought it would come up. I'll start it off with some commentary:

The All-Star game is dumb.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 12, 2011, 11:23:28 PM
So with Rivera being dealt for nothing, we are only a Francisco removed from Wells being dealt away for nothing which, when you think about it, is really something of an accomplishment.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on July 12, 2011, 11:32:40 PM
I had the All-Star Game mostly cause there was nothing else on.  Horribly boring game.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 12, 2011, 11:37:02 PM
I missed it entirely. Sounds like a good call. Romero or Bautista do anything?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2011, 11:39:02 PM
The All-Star game is dumb.

Was that tonight? Whoops. ;D
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on July 12, 2011, 11:39:14 PM
Bautista made a nice catch and went 1 for 2. Romero ate lots of sunflower seeds.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on July 12, 2011, 11:40:15 PM
I made the comment on twitter that this was the most exciting MLB All Star game I have seen this season. Someone is arguing against this. Oh the internet how you entertain me.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2011, 11:42:28 PM
I made the comment on twitter that this was the most exciting MLB All Star game I have seen this season. Someone is arguing against this. Oh the internet how you entertain me.

Clearly, the other MLB All Star game was so much better. Unfortunately, I missed that one too. :o
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 12, 2011, 11:44:31 PM
I made the comment on twitter that this was the most exciting MLB All Star game I have seen this season. Someone is arguing against this. Oh the internet how you entertain me.

ESPN classic?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on July 12, 2011, 11:46:16 PM
Ok now I have two people hooked.  I told one to re-read my original post and they still don't get it.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2011, 11:48:29 PM
Clearly, they feel the All Star softball game was more exciting . . . and, I agree with them, if for no other reason than that it had significantly more Kate Upton.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 12, 2011, 11:48:39 PM
AAA All-Stars vs. MLB All-Stars?  :-\ At least it gives us a look at some upcoming prospects and more importantly, its something different.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2011, 11:50:29 PM
So with Rivera being dealt for nothing, we are only a Francisco removed from Wells being dealt away for nothing which, when you think about it, is really something of an accomplishment.

The best part is, knowing the Dodgers and considering the fact the Jays sent cash along with Rivera, the Jays could actually end up with a prospect much better than trading Rivera should ever return.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 12, 2011, 11:51:49 PM
AAA All-Stars vs. MLB All-Stars?  :-\ At least it gives us a look at some upcoming prospects and more importantly, its something different.

No. The answer is simple. Tell the managers and the teams that it's a real game and needs to be treated as such. Cut the rosters down in terms of position players, eliminate the one player per team rule and have at it.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 12, 2011, 11:53:53 PM
Remember when the players actually took the All Star game seriously?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 13, 2011, 12:01:08 AM
Remember when the players actually took the All Star game seriously?

That's what I mean. "Fixing" the all-star game is as simple as telling people to take it seriously.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 13, 2011, 11:23:37 AM
Remember when the players actually took the All Star game seriously?

That's what I mean. "Fixing" the all-star game is as simple as telling people to take it seriously.

Wasn't it Pete Rose who absolutely smoked a catcher at home in an All-Star game? Yeah, I'd say there was a time it was taken seriously. Though I do like the lighter side. - Like when Kruk (I think it was) turned his helmet bachwards when facing Randy Johnson.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: gilmour4life on July 13, 2011, 11:25:00 AM
So with Rivera being dealt for nothing, we are only a Francisco removed from Wells being dealt away for nothing which, when you think about it, is really something of an accomplishment.

The best part is, knowing the Dodgers and considering the fact the Jays sent cash along with Rivera, the Jays could actually end up with a prospect much better than trading Rivera should ever return.

Could the PTBNL or cash considertions become the $175,000 the Dodgers are paying over the remainder of the season or is there a realistic chance there could be an actual return in exchange for opening up a roster spot and a 40 man spot?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 13, 2011, 11:28:44 AM
Wasn't it Pete Rose who absolutely smoked a catcher at home in an All-Star game? Yeah, I'd say there was a time it was taken seriously. Though I do like the lighter side. - Like when Kruk (I think it was turned) his helmet bachwards when facing Randy Johnson.

That was Larry Walker against Johnson, but, yeah, that was at least entertaining. That's been lacking for a while as well.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 13, 2011, 11:30:03 AM
Could the PTBNL or cash considertions become the $175,000 the Dodgers are paying over the remainder of the season or is there a realistic chance there could be an actual return in exchange for opening up a roster spot and a 40 man spot?

It could be, but, you never know. I mean, this is the same team and GM that traded Carlos Santana for Casey Blake.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 13, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
Wasn't it Pete Rose who absolutely smoked a catcher at home in an All-Star game? Yeah, I'd say there was a time it was taken seriously. Though I do like the lighter side. - Like when Kruk (I think it was) turned his helmet bachwards when facing Randy Johnson.

That was Larry Walker against Johnson, but, yeah, that was at least entertaining. That's been lacking for a while as well.

Walker. Yes. Thank you.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 13, 2011, 11:43:20 AM
Wasn't it Pete Rose who absolutely smoked a catcher at home in an All-Star game? Yeah, I'd say there was a time it was taken seriously. Though I do like the lighter side. - Like when Kruk (I think it was turned) his helmet bachwards when facing Randy Johnson.

It was Ray Fosse he hit and actually hurt. I don't know that's the best example of anything other than Pete Rose being a jerk but, yeah, it meant more at the time.

It really is the simplest solution in the world. The problem is it would take some actual competent leadership from Bud Selig. Here's how it would go.

1. Make the point to teams, players and management that the All-Star game is important. Don't suggest it. Don't imply it. Lay it out simply. It's a game you're trying to win. Loafing or not taking it seriously will be seen the same as taking a regular game off.

That shouldn't be hard. The All-Star game is important. It's important financially, it's important promotionally.

2. Reduce the rosters to 24 a squad, split into 10 pitchers and 14 position players.

Again, simple. Being an All-star should be an elite thing. The best of the best. Not one of 70.

3. Mandate how players are used. The starting pitchers go three innings(or, if they run into trouble, they at least have to start the third inning) and starting position players play a minimum of six innings.

Right now the dumbest thing about the All-Star game is that it's often decided in the late innings by the scrubs and Kansas City Royals who have no business being there. None of the athletes care about the NHL or NBA all-star game either but at least in those cases we get to watch Sid Crosby and Lebron James not giving a damn late in the game instead of Joel Hanrahan pitching to Paul Konerko. three position players, at a minimum, would play the whole game.

4. Build the teams like real teams.

5-6 starting pitchers. 4 or 5 relievers. A guy at each position. A spare catcher. A spare outfielder. A spare infielder. A couple of bats off the bench. The starter, as mentioned, goes, three innings. Then each starting pitcher goes an inning or two. Use relievers in the 8th or 9th. Plan on not using some guys in case it goes to extras.

That's it. Tell them to care about it. Tell them to treat it like a real game. Make sure they know that playing in the All-Star game means, horrors of horrors, they have to play another baseball game.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 13, 2011, 11:52:11 AM
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Crucialness Key on July 13, 2011, 01:09:06 PM
I think another consideration is that the players don't want to needlessly injure themselves in mid-season.  And I doubt the fans want them to either.  How would we feel if Bautista had banged up his knee making that difficult catch and missed 2-3 months?

Perhaps it would help having the All-Star Game at season's end.  The players wouldn't need to save any energy for later, they would worry less about minor injuries with the whole offseason ahead, and we'd also have the players who had the best full seasons competing.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 13, 2011, 01:15:51 PM
I think another consideration is that the players don't want to needlessly injure themselves in mid-season.  And I doubt the fans want them to either.  How would we feel if Bautista had banged up his knee making that difficult catch and missed 2-3 months?

Unlucky. But I'd feel just as unlucky if he hurt it in batting practice or off the field. Either way, if Bud Selig made it clear to the players that it was part of their job then it'd be as legitimate as hurting it in a Jays game. I'd like to think that the Blue Jays will be in contention to play in the world series some day and I'd want guys going all out to win that home field advantage.

Perhaps it would help having the All-Star Game at season's end.  The players wouldn't need to save any energy for later, they would worry less about minor injuries with the whole offseason ahead, and we'd also have the players who had the best full seasons competing.

If there's one thing the NFL has taught us it's that having an all-star game after the season is a sure way to ensure that nobody cares about it, especially the players.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 14, 2011, 12:34:05 AM
Anyone know off hand what the pitching match-up is this Saturday?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 14, 2011, 08:50:53 AM
Wasn't it Pete Rose who absolutely smoked a catcher at home in an All-Star game? Yeah, I'd say there was a time it was taken seriously. Though I do like the lighter side. - Like when Kruk (I think it was turned) his helmet bachwards when facing Randy Johnson.

That was Larry Walker against Johnson, but, yeah, that was at least entertaining. That's been lacking for a while as well.

I also remember Johnson throwing over the head of Kruk on his first pitch, then following up with three perfect strikes where Kruk was still jumping out of the box.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 14, 2011, 09:04:46 AM
Anyone know off hand what the pitching match-up is this Saturday?
 

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers/index.jsp?c_id=tor

CC Sabathia (Yankees) against Ricky Romero (Blue Jays).
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 14, 2011, 09:18:12 AM
Anyone know off hand what the pitching match-up is this Saturday?
 

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers/index.jsp?c_id=tor

CC Sabathia (Yankees) against Ricky Romero (Blue Jays).

Nice.  It'll be my first game this year and my kid's first ever! I'm pretty pumped (as are my kids.)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 14, 2011, 09:24:00 AM
Anyone know off hand what the pitching match-up is this Saturday?
 

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers/index.jsp?c_id=tor

CC Sabathia (Yankees) against Ricky Romero (Blue Jays).

Nice.  It'll be my first game this year and my kid's first ever! I'm pretty pumped (as are my kids.)


Have a bright sunny weekend (and enjoy the game)!   :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on July 14, 2011, 10:04:22 AM
Havent had a good nights sleep in weeks... thinking of going to the Orioles game to put an end to that
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 14, 2011, 12:12:24 PM
WASHINGTON -- The judge presiding over Roger Clemens' perjury has declared a mistrial over evidence revealed to the jury that may have prejudiced the jury against the former baseball star.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=371713

Lucky prick.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 14, 2011, 07:41:16 PM

8-0 Jays over the Yankees in the bottom of the first.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 14, 2011, 07:52:25 PM
8-0 Jays over the Yankees in the bottom of the first.

Yankees are doing a pretty good job of beating themselves tonight.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 14, 2011, 08:49:38 PM
8-0 Jays over the Yankees in the bottom of the first.

Yankees are doing a pretty good job of beating themselves tonight.

Jays doing a pretty good job of letting this one slip away.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 14, 2011, 08:53:12 PM

I mean, at some point the whole "Jo Jo Reyes is a starting pitcher nonsense has to end, right?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 14, 2011, 09:01:23 PM
Also I feel it is starting to get to the point that:

What Cito is to Carlson; Farrell is to Perez.  Why is Perez always the first guy out of the pen.  Dotel is the best on the team with only 17% of his inherited runners scoring (9th in the AL), Camp and Rzepcinski are also in the top 20.  Perez...is not allowing just under 30%.

Also it is always nice when Bautista has to leave a game due to injury.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 14, 2011, 09:09:27 PM
Also I feel it is starting to get to the point that:

What Cito is to Carlson; Farrell is to Perez.  Why is Perez always the first guy out of the pen.  Dotel is the best on the team with only 17% of his inherited runners scoring (9th in the AL), Camp and Rzepcinski are also in the top 20.  Perez...is not allowing just under 30%.

Also it is always nice when Bautista has to leave a game due to injury.

I think it probably had something to do with three of the next four hitters in the Yankee lineup batting lefty. Definitely don't want Dotel pitching in that situation.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 14, 2011, 10:12:08 PM

Tough to see Bautista get hurt, especially sliding into a base when he was out by 15 feet.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 15, 2011, 02:13:25 AM

Tough to see Bautista get hurt, especially sliding into a base when he was out by 15 feet.


That's exactly what I feared would happen... what if Bautista ever got injured/hurt.... how big a dent in the Jays' offence would that make (should it ever be that JosŤ would be out of the lineup?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 15, 2011, 04:08:23 AM
Quote
According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Bautista is the first American League player in the expansion era to lead the first half of a season in home runs, walks, slugging and on-base percentage.

Damn impressive.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/brett-lawrie-the-name-the-jays-dare-not-speak/article2098156/
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 15, 2011, 06:10:01 AM
Hope he can make back in by tomorrow... It'll be a shame to go and miss him.  :'( 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 15, 2011, 10:59:27 AM

I mean, at some point the whole "Jo Jo Reyes is a starting pitcher nonsense has to end, right?

I'm thinking so too. However, we should prepare to hear the usual "out of options" reasoning for why he stays.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on July 16, 2011, 08:37:00 AM
Two straight convincing wins over the Yankees.  Feels good, .......feels real good!  :)

Snider is looking quite good in his return to the big club.  Hopefully Thames is okay.  Has anyone heard what was wrong with him last night or if he will be out of the line-up for any time.?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 16, 2011, 10:24:46 AM

I mean, at some point the whole "Jo Jo Reyes is a starting pitcher nonsense has to end, right?

He's not absolutely useless for a bottom of the league team, but he's a consistently below average pitcher (ERA+ of 81).  Puts 2 men on base every other inning and walks too many guys for someone who doesn't strike anyone out.  I understand that AA wants to acquire assets for absolutely everything in the Jays organization but sometimes keeping useless players past their expiry date isn't the best course of action.  Stewart was providing similar peripheral numbers with slightly better outcome.  I can tolerate a young pitcher learning in the Majors, I really don't get this idea that you should keep them in the minors simply because a useless player is out of options.

I'm thinking so too. However, we should prepare to hear the usual "out of options" reasoning for why he stays.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 16, 2011, 10:39:59 AM
Two straight convincing wins over the Yankees.  Feels good, .......feels real good!  :)

Snider is looking quite good in his return to the big club.  Hopefully Thames is okay.  Has anyone heard what was wrong with him last night or if he will be out of the line-up for any time.?

Just some dehydration.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on July 16, 2011, 10:57:59 AM
Two straight convincing wins over the Yankees.  Feels good, .......feels real good!  :)

Snider is looking quite good in his return to the big club.  Hopefully Thames is okay.  Has anyone heard what was wrong with him last night or if he will be out of the line-up for any time.?

Just some dehydration.

really?  I didn't expect it to be something like that.  Then he should be back in for today's game, I would expect (?).

Thanks.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 17, 2011, 06:35:03 AM
Might have been the big crowd... Might have been the beautiful day... Or more likely, the fact that I haven't been to another cities' ballpark but I really had no complaints about Rogers's Center as a place to enjoy a ballgame. The family and I just had a great day yesterday (in spite of the loss.) The Jr. Jays stuff was great.  Watching my kids run the bases was awesome. I wish I had done that as a kid. Don't like the food prices? How does $1.00  hot dogs, 50 cent waters and free ice cream grab ya? - No, those prices are not just for the kids. The kiddies got a couple autographs, did all the events and had a blast. If you have little ones, I highly recommend Jr. Jays Saturdays.     
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 17, 2011, 07:59:47 AM

Likewise I had a pretty good time at the game yesterday. 45,000+ in the house made for probably the best attended Blue Jays game I've been to in at least 10 years.  A little disappointing that the split was, I'd guess,  50/50 for Jays and Yankees fans but better than being with 10,000 Blue Jays fans I suppose.

Now if they'd just get rid of that G/D carpet.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 17, 2011, 08:20:22 AM
Yeah, I was on the field yesterday obviously and I have to tell you, it doesn't even feel like grass.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 17, 2011, 10:35:40 AM
Yeah, I was on the field yesterday obviously and I have to tell you, it doesn't even feel like grass.

It's still better than the foam-rubber they used to have down there.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 17, 2011, 04:13:34 PM
So much for winning the series. Jays settle for the split after winning the first two games.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 18, 2011, 05:30:04 AM
The Jays are 10 games behind first-place Yankees for the wildcard spot.  They'll need to win a substantial amount in order to have any hope of catching up to not only the Yankees for the wildcard, but also the Bosox for first in the A.L. East, a tall order, indeed.  Not impossible though, but difficult.  Not that I'm expecting them to actually make the playoffs, but to come close, say 5-6.5 games out of a spot would indicate a somewhat substantive improvement at least.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 18, 2011, 05:35:35 AM

Dear Mr. Anthopoulos,

Any time one of the guys you added to the team wants to start playing well would be just fine with me,

Sincerely,

A Blue Jays fan

Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on July 18, 2011, 11:58:13 AM
Congrats to Jason Frasor on becoming the all-time leader in appearances in Jays history.  I didn't know he was so close to the feat until it was being mentioned quite prominently last week. 

He's had his ups and downs, but he has to have been doing something right to be the current longest serving Jay. 

I find that baseball trades, particularly when it deals with prospects and/or castaways, are ones you don't really put much thought or emphasis into until you look back on them 3, 5 even 10 years down the road.  Didn't realize the Jays picked him up from the Dodgers for Jayson Werth.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 19, 2011, 01:10:26 PM
Jays to retire #12 on July 31.  :) Per Sportsnet.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 19, 2011, 01:11:32 PM
Jays to retire #12 on July 31.  :) Per Sportsnet.

So...they do retire numbers?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: chestyleroux on July 19, 2011, 02:34:45 PM
Jays to retire #12 on July 31.  :) Per Sportsnet.

So...they do retire numbers?

He's the first, apparently.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 19, 2011, 05:35:05 PM
I guess it speaks volumes about our collection of CFers when Snider finally gets a crack.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 19, 2011, 07:15:43 PM
And down one to Seattle already, a team that has scored what, 11 runs in its last 9 games?

Hopefully that run is it and Jays don't act as slump busters.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 19, 2011, 07:31:24 PM
And down one to Seattle already, a team that has scored what, 11 runs in its last 9 games?

Hopefully that run is it and Jays don't act as slump busters.

Jays already back up 2-1.  Mariners got some pretty lucky hits in the 1st on some tough to hit pitches.

EDIT: Although Cecil isn't looking good in the 2nd either.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 19, 2011, 07:37:49 PM
Three batters into the second and the Mariners are back up by 2.

Four runs in one plus innings. That is more runs than they have scored in any of their last nine games, and the same as they had scored in their previous five games total.

Ladies and gentlemen, your Toronto Blue Jays. :(
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 19, 2011, 07:40:01 PM
Three batters into the second and the Mariners are back up by 2.

Four runs in one plus innings. That is more runs than they have scored in any of their last nine games, and the same as they had scored in their previous five games total.

Ladies and gentlemen, your Toronto Blue Jays. :(

Meh.  I've never cared if a team slumping 'breaks out of it' against a team I like.  They are going to do so sometime, and it's going to be against someone's favourite team somewhere, so if it happens to be the Jays, so be it as long as Toronto comes back and wins.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 19, 2011, 07:43:04 PM
What an ugly inning for Cecil.  Two HR's given up.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 19, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
It seems to happen to the Jays a lot, though. Probably just my bias, but meh.

It really sucks to hear of a team doing that badly, then score more runs in an inning than they did for their last four games. :(

Cecil with 51 pitches through 2 innings. Good thing they had the day off yesterday to rest up the bullpen.

Edit: Cecil settled down after that and pitched 7 innings. Jays tied it in the 6th, but failed to bring in the winning run from 3rd in the bottom of the 9th. Now Frasor is pitching the 10th and has given up two singles (luckily separated by a double play :))
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 19, 2011, 11:32:01 PM
Davis now tied with Ellsbury for the lead in AL stolen bases. Man, if he could only get on base.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 20, 2011, 12:35:55 PM
Nice win last night by the Jays. :)

The Mariner bats went cold for the last 12 innings, and that sure helped. :D
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on July 20, 2011, 01:47:56 PM
'lil Bautista.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/07/15/lil_batista/
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on July 20, 2011, 02:09:32 PM
'lil Bautista.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/07/15/lil_batista/

That is awesome!  :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on July 20, 2011, 02:32:35 PM
'lil Bautista.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/07/15/lil_batista/

Pretty cool for him... I just hope it doesnt get to be like that little Kipper kid in Calgary. Now that was irritating
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on July 20, 2011, 08:45:21 PM
So apparently Encarnacion can't get out. Stole two bases, beat a tag up throw to second, and reached on an error leading to a 3 run hr.

Edit: now 3-4 with a solo bomb.
Edit: bah! Struck out. The dream is over.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 20, 2011, 09:14:51 PM
Nice to hear McGowan is pitching in the minors and hitting 97 mph.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 21, 2011, 12:38:56 PM
It would be really great to see McGowan back with the Jays after all he has been through.

I have heard people speculate that he could try out being a closer - it would probably be less strenuous on his arm, what with all the problems he has had.

Also, nice to see the Jays beat the snot out of a team that is struggling! :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on July 21, 2011, 12:41:23 PM
So apparently Encarnacion can't get out. Stole two bases, beat a tag up throw to second, and reached on an error leading to a 3 run hr.

Edit: now 3-4 with a solo bomb.
Edit: bah! Struck out. The dream is over.

and here I thought he was trying to balance out the "I cant make a play..."
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 23, 2011, 01:24:03 PM
@BlueJays
Blue Jays-Official
Roster Move: Jo Jo Reyes designated for assignment, LHP Wilfredo Ledezma has contract selected

Hooray!
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 23, 2011, 01:52:41 PM
@BlueJays
Blue Jays-Official
Roster Move: Jo Jo Reyes designated for assignment, LHP Wilfredo Ledezma has contract selected

Hooray!

However, they demoted a starter and called up a reliever???
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 23, 2011, 02:25:45 PM
However, they demoted a starter and called up a reliever???

Yeah, but, with the off day after the series in Texas and another at the end of the homestand, they can potentially go a couple weeks without really pushing anyone too far out of schedule. At the very least, they don't need a 5th starter this time through the rotation, and they can manage without one next time.

EDIT: ALso, Litsch is healthy now, so, he probably comes back up in a week or so - whenever the team feels they need a #5 again.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 24, 2011, 03:56:01 AM
Looks like there's going to be another  "great one" in another league of professional sports,  make that MLB, as reports say that the Chicago Cubs have signed their seventh round draft pick, Trevor Gretzky, son of the original "great one" Wayne Gretzky.  The younger Gretzky opted for the Cubs and a chance to play professionally rather than return to college with the San Diego State Aztecs, led by coach and former MLBer Tony Gwynn.

Let's not forget that the elder Gretzky started his pro career at the age of 17.  If Dad can do it, son can do it too.  (Well, that remains to be seen).

Trevor's position is as first baseman.


Source:  http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6791440/chicago-cubs-sign-trevor-gretzky-son-hockey-great-wayne-gretzky-report-says
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 24, 2011, 12:42:41 PM
Yaaay, another blown save costs the Jays a win. :(
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 24, 2011, 10:31:18 PM
Cecil with a gem tonight. Nice to see.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 26, 2011, 08:20:01 PM
Bautista just got beaned in the head.  I have it on mute since I'm in class, so hopefully he's alright.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 26, 2011, 08:22:06 PM
And then Lind backs him up with a 3-run shot.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 26, 2011, 08:23:10 PM
Bautista just got beaned in the head.  I have it on mute since I'm in class, so hopefully he's alright.

Looks like it went off the helmet and that he's okay. From the sounds of things, he was taken out for precautionary reasons more than anything else.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 09:17:48 AM
Good to hear. Bautista has had some hard luck with injuries after the all-star break. He was on a serious roll, then he hurt his ankle, now hit by a pitch. :( Hopefully he comes back strong.

Too bad about Mr. Morrow's performance last night. On paper it looked like a win for the Jays, but that's why they play the games.

And the Mariners have lost 17 straight now. :o
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 10:16:53 AM
And the Mariners have lost 17 straight now. :o

They were very much in the fight for the divisional title before that happened - only 2.5 games back. Over the span of the losing streak, they've lost 13 games in the standings. Over the span of a month, they went from being in playoff contention to being tied for the 4th worst record in MLB.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 27, 2011, 10:17:54 AM
Luckily, Bautista was fine.  The Orioles' pitcher Jake Arrieta, who himself took a ball hit on his foot, had asked the trainer to pass on his concern to Bautista.  He claimed that the pitch was a "non-intent" and that he felt terrible about what had happened.

Also, it was the Orioles' first  back-to-back wins at the Rogers Centre, a place they've had some hard luck to play in, since June 6-7 of 2008.  Baltimore had lost 16 straight at the Rogers Centre until June 16, having lost 25 out of 29 games here.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 10:25:54 AM
Sources: SP Edwin Jackson + 3B Mark Teahen to Jays for RP Jason Frasor and a prospect?

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/96222026397782017
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 10:30:03 AM
Sources: SP Edwin Jackson + 3B Mark Teahen to Jays for RP Jason Frasor and a prospect?

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/96222026397782017

Unless the plan is to flip Jackson in another deal, don't really understand this one. Teahen has been awful since leaving KC and Jackson really only has one above average season on his resume and, like Frasor, is a free agent at end of the season (he's also a Type B, but, in his case, just barely). Not that I expect a ton in return for Frasor, but, I would have thought AA would have been looking for a quality prospect or two instead of an ordinary starter and a bench player.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 10:35:00 AM
Sources: SP Edwin Jackson + 3B Mark Teahen to Jays for RP Jason Frasor and a prospect?

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/96222026397782017

Unless the plan is to flip Jackson in another deal, don't really understand this one. Teahen has been awful since leaving KC and Jackson really only has one above average season on his resume and, like Frasor, is a free agent at end of the season (he's also a Type B, but, in his case, just barely). Not that I expect a ton in return for Frasor, but, I would have thought AA would have been looking for a quality prospect or two instead of an ordinary starter and a bench player.

Maybe the plan would be to let Jackson go and get the sandwich pick as he would for Frasor? If that's the case, perhaps its the bench player for a "meh" prospect? Perhaps one of our other bench players would be on the move?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 10:37:45 AM
Or, maybe we're moving a starter?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 10:47:03 AM
Maybe the plan would be to let Jackson go and get the sandwich pick as he would for Frasor? If that's the case, perhaps its the bench player for a "meh" prospect? Perhaps one of our other bench players would be on the move?

Doubt it, as not only would the pick they Jays would receive for Jackson come after the pick they would receive for Frasor, Jackson is very much a borderline Type B guy right now and at serious risk of dropping below the threshold, leaving the Jays with no pick. Teahen for a meh prospect on its own wouldn't be a terrible move, if it wasn't for the fact that he's set to earn $5.5M next season - if they Jays were to take on that contract, there'd have to be some serious incentive, and, to me, adding Jackson to a non-contending roster doesn't do that. Neither does adding Jackson to move another starter - the Jays have plenty of guys in the minors capable of handling the job for a couple months were that to happen, and it wouldn't require taking on a bad contract and downgrading a draft pick. Unless Jackson is being flipped, this one doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 10:48:32 AM
Maybe the plan would be to let Jackson go and get the sandwich pick as he would for Frasor? If that's the case, perhaps its the bench player for a "meh" prospect? Perhaps one of our other bench players would be on the move?

Doubt it, as not only would the pick they Jays would receive for Jackson come after the pick they would receive for Frasor, Jackson is very much a borderline Type B guy right now and at serious risk of dropping below the threshold, leaving the Jays with no pick. Teahen for a meh prospect on its own wouldn't be a terrible move, if it wasn't for the fact that he's set to earn $5.5M next season - if they Jays were to take on that contract, there'd have to be some serious incentive, and, to me, adding Jackson to a non-contending roster doesn't do that. Neither does adding Jackson to move another starter - the Jays have plenty of guys in the minors capable of handling the job for a couple months were that to happen, and it wouldn't require taking on a bad contract and downgrading a draft pick. Unless Jackson is being flipped, this one doesn't make sense.

Yeah, that would make the most sense I think.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 10:52:07 AM
Yeah, that would make the most sense I think.

It's the only way I can really make sense of it. Every other angle doesn't work for me - especially, considering his poor numbers about the BoSox and the Yanks.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 11:18:25 AM
EJax + prospects(s) for Rasmus?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 11:27:34 AM
EJax + prospects(s) for Rasmus?

Rumour is Jackson and a bullpen arm as the centrepieces for Rasmus, if the ChiSox deal goes through.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 11:30:41 AM
EJax + prospects(s) for Rasmus?

Rumour is Jackson and a bullpen arm as the centrepieces for Rasmus, if the ChiSox deal goes through.

Rasmus is a great player... Great bridge until Gose is ready and possibly beyond if Gose never does make it for some reason. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 27, 2011, 11:37:40 AM
Pretty good call to end the Pirates/Braves game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_o4LHIQs-0
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 11:41:23 AM
Rasmus is a great player... Great bridge until Gose is ready and possibly beyond if Gose never does make it for some reason.

I'd hesitate to call him a great player, because he's only in his 3rd year and really has only had one above average season so far, but, Rasmus' bat has great potential. He needs some work defensively, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's moved to a corner outfield position in the future.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 11:43:30 AM
Rasmus is a great player... Great bridge until Gose is ready and possibly beyond if Gose never does make it for some reason.

I'd hesitate to call him a great player, because he's only in his 3rd year and really has only had one above average season so far, but, Rasmus' bat has great potential. He needs some work defensively, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's moved to a corner outfield position in the future.

Well, sure. I should have said projects to be or something to that affect... Could be the solution to our lead-off woes too. I like Escobar much better @ #2 or #5/#6.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 11:45:31 AM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Source: Money appears only holdup in 3-team deal that would send EJax to #Cardinals, Rasmus to #BlueJays. MORE #WhiteSox #tradedeadline #MLB
1 minute ago
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 11:46:23 AM
Well, sure. I should have said projects to be or something to that affect... Could be the solution to our lead-off woes too. I like Escobar much better @ #2 or #5/#6.

He's not really a lead-off type bat, what with his career OBP of .334 and all. Escobar's actually a pretty good fit at the top of the order - not a typical lead-off guy, but, he gets on base at a good clip, which is what's really important.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 11:47:09 AM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
#BlueJays surely sending more than EJax, potential FA, to #Cardinals for Rasmus, who is under control for 3 more yrs. #tradedeadline #MLB
1 minute ago
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 11:51:33 AM
Interested to see what the trade ends up being. Rasmus is a good player who, defensive issues aside, looks to provide pretty good value. That said it's always going to be a red flag if a respected guy like Tony Larussa is publicly talking about a player's off-field issues and looking to get rid of him as a result.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 11:56:54 AM
Adding young high ceiling players in Escobar and Rasmus strikes me as pretty slick in back to back years. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:00:57 PM
Interested to see what the trade ends up being. Rasmus is a good player who, defensive issues aside, looks to provide pretty good value. That said it's always going to be a red flag if a respected guy like Tony Larussa is publicly talking about a player's off-field issues and looking to deal him accordingly.

Yeah, but, being that he's a couple weeks shy of his 25th birthday, I'm willing to write off some of Rasmus' off-field issues to immaturity rather than character issues - though, there have been rumblings about his father being and issue, which is somewhat troubling. As long as he produces on the field and doesn't disrupt the locker-room, I'm willing to overlook most potential off-field issues.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:03:49 PM
Jackson and Teahan for Z. Stewart and Frasor.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:05:01 PM
Yeah, but, being that he's a couple weeks shy of his 25th birthday, I'm willing to write off some of Rasmus' off-field issues to immaturity rather than character issues - though, there have been rumblings about his father being and issue, which is somewhat troubling. As long as he produces on the field and doesn't disrupt the locker-room, I'm willing to overlook most potential off-field issues.

This is baseball. Produce on the field and I'm willing to overlook drinking, drugs and, in one memorable case, wife-swapping. The issue, as you point out, is the extent to which the off-field issues are a reason as to his regression this year.

So it'll boil down, I think, to whatever the + ends up being if the reports are true and the Jays have to toss in more. Odds and ends and it's a good gamble to take, anything to see less of Davis in the regular lineup. Something significant and, well, we'll see.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:06:07 PM
Jackson and Teahan for Z. Stewart and Frasor.

Not a fan of Stewart being included in this one. Rasmus better be coming back without another top prospect being added to the deal.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:06:59 PM
Jackson and Teahan for Z. Stewart and Frasor.

Z. Stewart as in the guy they had up last month? Who pitched really well in his first start?

Huh.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:09:28 PM
Jackson and Teahan for Z. Stewart and Frasor.

Not a fan of Stewart being included in this one. Rasmus better be coming back without another top prospect being added to the deal.

Tough to see Stewart go but was he a "top" prospect? 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:10:17 PM
Was Stewart the one who came over with Encarnacion in the Rolen deal?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:10:25 PM
Tough to see Stewart go but was he a "top" prospect?

He was ranked 44th in all of baseball coming into the season. So, I'd say yes.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:12:04 PM
Tough to see Stewart go but was he a "top" prospect?

He was ranked 44th in all of baseball coming into the season. So, I'd say yes.

That high, eh? Seems AA (if the rumors are true) really identifies Rasmus as a significant player.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:12:48 PM
Jackson and Teahan for Z. Stewart and Frasor.

Not a fan of Stewart being included in this one. Rasmus better be coming back without another top prospect being added to the deal.

Tough to see Stewart go but was he a "top" prospect?

BA had him as the #5 prospect in the organization at the end of last year.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:14:26 PM
Was Stewart the one who came over with Encarnacion in the Rolen deal?

He is. He had three starts for the Jays, one good, two not so good.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:19:58 PM
Jackson and Teahan for Z. Stewart and Frasor.

Not a fan of Stewart being included in this one. Rasmus better be coming back without another top prospect being added to the deal.

Tough to see Stewart go but was he a "top" prospect?

BA had him as the #5 prospect in the organization at the end of last year.

This strikes me (using your catch phrase) as the type of deal you'd dig. - Finally burning a prospect (or two maybe) to bring in an established player. If memory serves, you were frustrated by AA collecting prospects while shedding players. (ie. Marcum.)   
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:21:11 PM
I'm not familiar with the development of starting pitching, are there many significant starters who were still at the AA level at 24?

On another note, not a big deal but I wish Frasor didn't break that appearances record, would rather have had it held by someone like Ward who contributed to success.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:22:52 PM
He is. He had three starts for the Jays, one good, two not so good.

I'd say it was the other way around - two good, one not so good.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:25:23 PM
Some talk that it's Gose going with Jackson for Rasmus, someone on HF says ESPN's Olney is reporting that.

I can't find that online anywhere though.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:28:18 PM
This strikes me (using your catch phrase) as the type of deal you'd dig. - Finally burning a prospect (or two maybe) to bring in an established player. If memory serves, you were frustrated by AA collecting prospects while shedding players. (ie. Marcum.)   

I typically like to think about the quality of the players involved too.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:31:14 PM
I'm not familiar with the development of starting pitching, are there many significant starters who were still at the AA level at 24?

Sure. Roy Halladay spent some time in AA at 24.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:31:20 PM
Some talk that it's Gose going with Jackson for Rasmus, someone on HF says ESPN's Olney is reporting that.

I can't find that online anywhere though.

Ouch. I hope not. Gose + Stewart?  :-\
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 12:32:27 PM
Pretty good call to end the Pirates/Braves game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_o4LHIQs-0

Ouch.

That was closer than the announcer made it to be - that tag was very light.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:33:08 PM
Some talk that it's Gose going with Jackson for Rasmus, someone on HF says ESPN's Olney is reporting that.

I can't find that online anywhere though.

If that's true, the deal would boil down to Rasmus and Teahen for Frasor, Stewart and Gose? Not terrible, I guess . . . assuming Rasmus can turn things around and his off-field issues don't affect the locker-room. I'd prefer it were someone less valuable to the Jays than Gose, though.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:35:03 PM
Some talk that it's Gose going with Jackson for Rasmus, someone on HF says ESPN's Olney is reporting that.

I can't find that online anywhere though.

If that's true, the deal would boil down to Rasmus and Teahen for Frasor, Stewart and Gose? Not terrible, I guess . . . assuming Rasmus can turn things around and his off-field issues don't affect the locker-room. I'd prefer it were someone less valuable to the Jays than Gose, though.

I'd rather part with Thames than Gose.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:35:34 PM
Ouch.

That was closer than the announcer made it to be - that tag was very light.

Was it?

(http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg737/scaled.php?tn=0&server=737&filename=ss0ca.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:36:07 PM
Some talk that it's Gose going with Jackson for Rasmus, someone on HF says ESPN's Olney is reporting that.

I can't find that online anywhere though.

If that's true, the deal would boil down to Rasmus and Teahen for Frasor, Stewart and Gose? Not terrible, I guess . . . assuming Rasmus can turn things around and his off-field issues don't affect the locker-room. I'd prefer it were someone less valuable to the Jays than Gose, though.

And I also read another reliever to STL, Rauch maybe.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 12:37:37 PM
Ouch.

That was closer than the announcer made it to be - that tag was very light.

Was it?

(http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg737/scaled.php?tn=0&server=737&filename=ss0ca.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640)

You can see in the replay that his pant leg moved (was tagged), but from that angle and the way the glove followed through somewhat unimpeded, I can see why he may have thought the tag missed.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 27, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
Pretty good call to end the Pirates/Braves game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_o4LHIQs-0

That's beyond embarrassing.  I don't understand how he rationalized that he was safe.  It's not even controversial, it's incompetence.  I'm not buying that there is any doubt of that tag, and quite frankly, the ball was there early, it wasn't like Lugo made a dive low to the ground where it would be difficult for the tag to be applied, it's bad positioning from the umpire and an arrogance that he's absolutely got the call.  The catcher brought the ball up and away from the play because he made the tag and didn't want the ball coming out in a collision.

Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:39:30 PM
You can see in the replay that his pant leg moved (was tagged), but from that angle and the way the glove followed through somewhat unimpeded, I can see why he may have thought the tag missed.

I don't know. With the way the catcher's arm pretty much came up along Lugo's body as he popped up and the way Lugo reacted as if he knew the tag made contact and that he was out, I'd say the only person involved who didn't clearly know the tag was good was the ump.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:40:06 PM
Joe Strauss, Beat writer for the cards posts:

Trade of Rasmus to Toronto imminent for Jackson, Dotel, Rzepczynski. More @stltoday.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on July 27, 2011, 12:40:55 PM
bunch of ppl on TMLfans saying the trade for Rasmus will have Jackson, Dotel, and Zep going the other way. Dunno who Joe Strauss is but that's the source they're citing.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:41:10 PM
And I also read another reliever to STL, Rauch maybe.

Some rumblings coming out of St Louis that the deal is Rasmus for Jackson, Dotel and Rzep.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:41:22 PM
Video review in cases like this would be nice. In fact, I say bring in instant replay for everything but balls and strikes.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:42:13 PM
I think it was a blown call obviously but I see how it was made. Solid contact wasn't made with any part of Lugo's body and there's no movement in the glove to indicate a tag. I think it's pretty clear that the tag was made on the pants but the catcher really should have made a more solid tag.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:42:29 PM
And I also read another reliever to STL, Rauch maybe.

Some rumblings coming out of St Louis that the deal is Rasmus for Jackson, Dotel and Rzep.

That would be fine.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 12:42:53 PM
You can see in the replay that his pant leg moved (was tagged), but from that angle and the way the glove followed through somewhat unimpeded, I can see why he may have thought the tag missed.

I don't know. With the way the catcher's arm pretty much came up along Lugo's body as he popped up and the way Lugo reacted as if he knew the tag made contact and that he was out, I'd say the only person involved who didn't clearly know the tag was good was the ump.

I agree with all of that and think he was obviously out. But after watching it a few times, I can see why he got it wrong.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:43:23 PM
bunch of ppl on TMLfans saying the trade for Rasmus will have Jackson, Dotel, and Zep going the other way. Dunno who Joe Strauss is but that's the source they're citing.

Joe Strauss is the Cardinals beat reporter @ stltoday.com
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:43:33 PM
bunch of ppl on TMLfans saying the trade for Rasmus will have Jackson, Dotel, and Zep going the other way. Dunno who Joe Strauss is but that's the source they're citing.

I like those folk at TMLfans. They tend to have their ducks in a row.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 27, 2011, 12:44:05 PM
And I also read another reliever to STL, Rauch maybe.

Some rumblings coming out of St Louis that the deal is Rasmus for Jackson, Dotel and Rzep.

I can live with that...however Frasor +Rzep + Dotel = the only half-decent relievers in the bullpen are gone and all of the crap is still there. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on July 27, 2011, 12:45:03 PM
Pretty good call to end the Pirates/Braves game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_o4LHIQs-0

What makes it worse is that the ump non-chalantly calls him safe before he even touched the plate, and when he finally did touch the plate, he wasn't even looking at it.

Just a horrendous call for a Pirates team fighting tooth and nail for the division.  Chalk up another argument for instant replay.

Speaking of which, umpires went to instant replay in a game I can't remember on a home run call and ruled it one when it was clearly not.  Yikes.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 12:45:44 PM
I was going to say who was going to replace all the blown saves, but I guess most of those guys will still be around. :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on July 27, 2011, 12:46:09 PM
bunch of ppl on TMLfans saying the trade for Rasmus will have Jackson, Dotel, and Zep going the other way. Dunno who Joe Strauss is but that's the source they're citing.

I like those folk at TMLfans. They tend to have their ducks in a row.

Meant HF. My mistake hahah
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:46:48 PM
Joe Strauss, Beat writer for the cards posts:

Trade of Rasmus to Toronto imminent for Jackson, Dotel, Rzepczynski. More @stltoday.

Not bad. I'm fine with getting rid of most of the chuckleheads in the bullpen. Still don't love Stewart being thrown into the deal. He struck me as a guy who had a bright future.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on July 27, 2011, 12:47:49 PM
If this trade is true though...who's gonna come out of the pen? Just send out Rauch and Francisco every freakin day?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 12:48:53 PM
I can live with that...however Frasor +Rzep + Dotel = the only half-decent relievers in the bullpen are gone and all of the crap is still there.

Yeah, but, Rzep is the only one that would likely have been around next season, so, it's no big loss.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 27, 2011, 12:50:25 PM
I can live with that...however Frasor +Rzep + Dotel = the only half-decent relievers in the bullpen are gone and all of the crap is still there.

Yeah, but, Rzep is the only one that would likely have been around next season, so, it's no big loss.

Absolutely, although I wouldn't have been upset if Frasor was back for another season.  He's been solid and consistent over most of his Blue Jays tenure when not in a closer role.    Dotel isn't a loss, but I just look at the horrid bullpen and now we are going to see Rauch, Francisco, and the other garbage on a nightly basis now.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 12:51:58 PM
I can live with that...however Frasor +Rzep + Dotel = the only half-decent relievers in the bullpen are gone and all of the crap is still there.

Yeah, but, Rzep is the only one that would likely have been around next season, so, it's no big loss.

Just the potential sandwich picks from Dotel and Frasor.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 12:54:49 PM
So if the rumor is true, we deal 4 arms for 2 bats. - The one bat clearly being the best single asset in the deal. I wonder if AA tries to replace an arm or two.

Edit: Make that 5 arms.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on July 27, 2011, 12:55:38 PM
That's a heck of a good deal for the Jays.

Colby is still only 24 years old and has a very high ceiling.  His potential is almost through the roof. 

The Jays lost nothing of real significance, and nothing really beyond this year and added an everyday player with potential of a .850-.900 Gold glove, 30 home runs, and solid D.

Cards got a good haul for 1 year sure but come next year this will look like a terrible deal for them (assuming of course Edwin and Dotel leave).
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 12:57:34 PM

Worth mentioning, I suppose, that in '09 BA had Rasmus rated as the #3 prospect in all of baseball.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 01:00:38 PM
Cards got a good haul for 1 year sure but come next year this will look like a terrible deal for them (assuming of course Edwin and Dotel leave).

Well, they would still potentially end up with a couple sandwich picks to help rebuild what is currently a poor farm system (ranked 24th in the league by Baseball America), so, there's some long-term potential for them, but, if this deal doesn't help them wrap up the division and may be even make it out of the first round of the playoffs, it's not going to look great for them in the short-term.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on July 27, 2011, 01:02:08 PM

Worth mentioning, I suppose, that in '09 BA had Rasmus rated as the #3 prospect in all of baseball.

He's someone I was really interested in because our centerfield position sucks. 

He's a very talented guy.  Might not be all there between the ears but there is no doubt he has untapped potential.  He could be one of the better centerfielders in the game for a long, long time.  He is not a stop gap solution by any means.

Also worth mentioning is that, does this mean the Jays have effectively 'given up' on Gose?  I didn't like that deal when they made it, I think it looks worse now.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 01:05:54 PM
He's someone I was really interested in because our centerfield position sucks. 

He's a very talented guy.  Might not be all there between the ears but there is no doubt he has untapped potential.  He could be one of the better centerfielders in the game for a long, long time.  He is not a stop gap solution by any means.

Also worth mentioning is that, does this mean the Jays have effectively 'given up' on Gose?  I didn't like that deal when they made it, I think it looks worse now.

Not necessarily. By most accounts Gose's strength is his defense and Rasmus doesn't have great defensive numbers. If Gose still progresses he may find himself in CF with Rasmus in a corner.

Or, worst comes to worst, Gose is a valuable trade chip to go find some pitching.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 01:07:03 PM
Also worth mentioning is that, does this mean the Jays have effectively 'given up' on Gose?  I didn't like that deal when they made it, I think it looks worse now.

Hardly. Gose is still at least a couple seasons away from making the bigs and there's also a good chance Rasmus ends up being moved to a corner outfield position, as his defence isn't great in CF. It also means that, 2 or 3 years from now, when Rasmus is approaching free agency and looking for big bucks, the Jays could deal him and have his replacement in house already.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:07:30 PM

Worth mentioning, I suppose, that in '09 BA had Rasmus rated as the #3 prospect in all of baseball.

He's someone I was really interested in because our centerfield position sucks. 

He's a very talented guy.  Might not be all there between the ears but there is no doubt he has untapped potential.  He could be one of the better centerfielders in the game for a long, long time.  He is not a stop gap solution by any means.

Also worth mentioning is that, does this mean the Jays have effectively 'given up' on Gose?  I didn't like that deal when they made it, I think it looks worse now.

Gose is at least 2 years away so no, I doubt they've given up on him. When you said, "might not be all there between the ears but there is no doubt he has untapped potential" it reminded me of the Escobar trade.  :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 01:08:49 PM
Wilnerness590Mike Wilner

#Jays fans exult! @Buster_ESPN: The trade: Rasmus, Trever Miller, Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Zep, Dotel and Patterson #bluejays
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:10:13 PM
Wilnerness590Mike Wilner

#Jays fans exult! @Buster_ESPN: The trade: Rasmus, Trever Miller, Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Zep, Dotel and Patterson #bluejays

Tallet is back? I quit baseball.  :P
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 27, 2011, 01:10:42 PM
Wilnerness590Mike Wilner

#Jays fans exult! @Buster_ESPN: The trade: Rasmus, Trever Miller, Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Zep, Dotel and Patterson #bluejays

So garbage position player out, horrendous bullpen in.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on July 27, 2011, 01:11:06 PM

Worth mentioning, I suppose, that in '09 BA had Rasmus rated as the #3 prospect in all of baseball.

He's someone I was really interested in because our centerfield position sucks. 

He's a very talented guy.  Might not be all there between the ears but there is no doubt he has untapped potential.  He could be one of the better centerfielders in the game for a long, long time.  He is not a stop gap solution by any means.

Also worth mentioning is that, does this mean the Jays have effectively 'given up' on Gose?  I didn't like that deal when they made it, I think it looks worse now.

Gose is at least 2 years away so no, I doubt they've given up on him. When you said, "might not be all there between the ears but there is no doubt he has untapped potential" it reminded me of the Escobar trade.  :)

You're welcome for that one btw.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on July 27, 2011, 01:12:03 PM
Also worth mentioning is that, does this mean the Jays have effectively 'given up' on Gose?  I didn't like that deal when they made it, I think it looks worse now.

Hardly. Gose is still at least a couple seasons away from making the bigs and there's also a good chance Rasmus ends up being moved to a corner outfield position, as his defence isn't great in CF. It also means that, 2 or 3 years from now, when Rasmus is approaching free agency and looking for big bucks, the Jays could deal him and have his replacement in house already.

Fair enough.  Or like Nik says, at the very least, it gives them a trade chip down the road.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 01:13:24 PM
Buster_ESPNBuster Olney

Source: Trever Miller is expected to be traded to the White Sox, from Toronto.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 01:14:37 PM
Wilnerness590Mike Wilner

#Jays fans exult! @Buster_ESPN: The trade: Rasmus, Trever Miller, Tallet and P.J. Walters for Jackson, Zep, Dotel and Patterson #bluejays

Tallet and Miller back? Yay. But, if that's the cost of getting Rasmus for what boils down to some bullpen arms and one quality prospect, then, I'll take it. Miller actually pitched pretty well for the Cards in 09 and 10.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
Buster_ESPNBuster Olney

Source: Trever Miller is expected to be traded to the White Sox, from Toronto.

Alrighty then. Interesting.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 01:17:58 PM
Snider/Rasmus/Thames in the outfield until Lawrie is up, and then Jose into right and Thames to DH?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:20:13 PM
I see Tallet hasn't learned to pitch any in StL... Hopefully he's learned what a razor blade is and how to tuck in his shirt. Dude was/is (and I said it before) just an unmade bed.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 01:22:47 PM

I missed having Tallet around. He was always a sure sign that you could turn off the game.

Anyways, not terrible all things considered. Happy to see Patterson/Davis off the team. A Snider/Rasmus/Thames outfield isn't too bad, all things considered.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:25:45 PM
Yeah, Davis now the 4th outfielder /  pinch runner.  Right where he should be.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:30:32 PM
From the blogosphere;

Escobar(righty)-Thames(lefty)-Bautista(righty)-Lind(lefty)-Lawrie(righty)-Snyder(lefty)-Arencibia(righty)-Rasmus(lefty)-hill(righty)
talk about a pitchers nightmare!
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:35:57 PM
Snider/Rasmus/Thames in the outfield until Lawrie is up, and then Jose into right and Thames to DH?

Sounds about right... What to do with E5 though?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 01:44:02 PM
Sounds about right... What to do with E5 though?

What to do with the DH with the 93 OPS+? The bench?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:48:45 PM
Sounds about right... What to do with E5 though?

What to do with the DH with the 93 OPS+? The bench?

Well sure... I was just thinking of somewhere further away then that.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 01:50:40 PM
Sounds about right... What to do with E5 though?

What to do with the DH with the 93 OPS+? The bench?

In fairness, his tOPS+ as a DH has been 120 and his sOPS+ is 111. Still not great numbers for a DH, but good enough that someone might like him as a trade candidate.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 01:54:24 PM
Sounds about right... What to do with E5 though?

What to do with the DH with the 93 OPS+? The bench?

In fairness, his tOPS+ as a DH has been 120 and his sOPS+ is 111. Still not great numbers for a DH, but good enough that someone might like him as a trade candidate.

Yeah, maybe can can squeeze a half-a$$ed,  sort of decent (but not really) bullpen arm out of him.  ???
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 01:56:31 PM
Yeah, maybe can can squeeze a half-a$$ed,  sort of decent (but not really) bullpen arm out of him.

I was thinking more along the lines of an older prospect or a long-shot type guy.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 02:03:22 PM
In fairness, his tOPS+ as a DH has been 120 and his sOPS+ is 111. Still not great numbers for a DH, but good enough that someone might like him as a trade candidate.

Hey, if you can convince someone to take him, thumbs up. I just have no problem with getting him out of the lineup.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 02:11:52 PM
Hey, if you can convince someone to take him, thumbs up. I just have no problem with getting him out of the lineup.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved before the August 31st deadline.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 02:21:48 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Rasmus is a Blue Jay and they give up ZERO prospects.Beltran is soon a Giant and Mets get what they should & in PGHthere's no instant replay
14 minutes ago

Not very kind words for Stewart from ESPN.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 02:25:54 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Rasmus is a Blue Jay and they give up ZERO prospects.Beltran is soon a Giant and Mets get what they should & in PGHthere's no instant replay
14 minutes ago

Not very kind words for Stewart from ESPN.

I'd have to guess he's referring specifically to the Cardinals deal.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 02:32:19 PM
Ervin Santana has thrown a no hitter, allowing only 2 batters to reach base (one walk, one on an error that later came around to score). Cleveland committed 5 errors in the game. Mastery on the mound on one side, buffoonery in the field on the other.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 27, 2011, 02:42:14 PM
Official now

Toronto Blue Jays

The TORONTO BLUE JAYS have acquired OF COLBY RASMUS, LHP BRIAN TALLET, LHP TREVER MILLER and RHP P.J. WALTERS from the St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for RHP EDWIN JACKSON, RHP OCTAVIO DOTEL, LHP MARC RZEPCZYNSKI, OF COREY PATTERSON and three players to be named later or cash considerations
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 02:46:30 PM
Official now

Toronto Blue Jays

The TORONTO BLUE JAYS have acquired OF COLBY RASMUS, LHP BRIAN TALLET, LHP TREVER MILLER and RHP P.J. WALTERS from the St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for RHP EDWIN JACKSON, RHP OCTAVIO DOTEL, LHP MARC RZEPCZYNSKI, OF COREY PATTERSON and three players to be named later or cash considerations

... and for clarity, Miller gets flipped to the White Sox.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 02:51:08 PM
Ervin Santana has thrown a no hitter, allowing only 2 batters to reach base (one walk, one on an error that later came around to score). Cleveland committed 5 errors in the game. Mastery on the mound on one side, buffoonery in the field on the other.

Nice! The no-hitter part, at least. :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 02:53:27 PM
... and for clarity, Miller gets flipped to the White Sox.

Is that official or a rumour at this point?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 02:58:09 PM
... and for clarity, Miller gets flipped to the White Sox.

Is that official or a rumour at this point?

Not firm yet but I'm reading it all over. With that said, our bullpen;

RHP Jon Rauch
RHP Frank Francisco
RHP Casey Janssen
RHP Shawn Camp
LHP Wil Ledezma
LHP Brad Mills
LHP Brian Tallet (when he returns from 15 day DL)

Scary.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 03:04:28 PM
Official now

Toronto Blue Jays

The TORONTO BLUE JAYS have acquired OF COLBY RASMUS, LHP BRIAN TALLET, LHP TREVER MILLER and RHP P.J. WALTERS from the St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for RHP EDWIN JACKSON, RHP OCTAVIO DOTEL, LHP MARC RZEPCZYNSKI, OF COREY PATTERSON and three players to be named later or cash considerations

3 players to be named later? Interesting.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 03:05:21 PM
Official now

Toronto Blue Jays

The TORONTO BLUE JAYS have acquired OF COLBY RASMUS, LHP BRIAN TALLET, LHP TREVER MILLER and RHP P.J. WALTERS from the St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for RHP EDWIN JACKSON, RHP OCTAVIO DOTEL, LHP MARC RZEPCZYNSKI, OF COREY PATTERSON and three players to be named later or cash considerations

3 players to be named later? Interesting.

Francisco, Rauch.... ;D
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 03:08:51 PM
RT @dgoold: Trever Miller said he's been told nothing about White Sox. Headed to join Toronto tomorrow, per his conv. with Jays.
1 minute ago
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Bender on July 27, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
So do these deals make the Jays better? I don't follow Baseball enough to know.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 03:14:54 PM
So do these deals make the Jays better? I don't follow Baseball enough to know.

I don't think there's a clear cut answer right now either in the long term or the short term. Short term the offense improves and the bull-pen is worse. Long term it's basically Rasmus vs. Stewart.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 03:18:56 PM
I don't think there's a clear cut answer right now either in the long term or the short term. Short term the offense improves and the bull-pen is worse. Long term it's basically Rasmus vs. Stewart.

Yeah, that covers it nicely. I'd lean towards worse short-term, better long-term, but, that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 03:33:42 PM
MUST BE MUTED - YOU"VE BEEN WARNED!

(nice Rasmus montage though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI8l87uyDXM
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 03:38:01 PM
MUST BE MUTED - YOU"VE BEEN WARNED!

(nice Rasmus montage though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI8l87uyDXM

I didn't even get 15 seconds into it. :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 03:43:42 PM
MUST BE MUTED - YOU"VE BEEN WARNED!

(nice Rasmus montage though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI8l87uyDXM

5 out of 5 critics agree that this is a video that is on the internet.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on July 27, 2011, 04:03:07 PM
MUST BE MUTED - YOU"VE BEEN WARNED!

(nice Rasmus montage though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI8l87uyDXM

She must must be devastated.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 04:28:16 PM
sportsnetbarry Barry Davis
AA says Miller isn't going anywhere. Mills is here and will be available in pen. Other new guys won't be available tonight.#bluejays
1 minute ago

Good. Our pen will need all the help it can get. Miller can still be somewhat usefull I think.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 04:33:05 PM
Good. Our pen will need all the help it can get. Miller can still be somewhat usefull I think.

He's been used almost exclusively as a lefty specialist this season. 26 of his 39 appearances lasted 1/3 of an inning or less - though, that is somewhat influenced by the way LaRussa manages his bullpen.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 27, 2011, 04:35:40 PM
Of note, Tallet has been on the DL for most of July with a kidney disorder and an intercostal strain. His addition may have just been to help allow the Cards to not have to make any other moves to make the trade work with the 40 man roster.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 04:43:10 PM
Of note, Tallet has been on the DL for most of July with a kidney disorder and an intercostal strain. His addition may have just been to help allow the Cards to not have to make any other moves to make the trade work with the 40 man roster.

This deal appears to be getting better by the minute.  8)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Bleeding Blue & White on July 27, 2011, 05:05:40 PM
good to know we got a nice potential cf but he certainly hasn't been paning out well so far.  Still not like we are a playoff team so I am a fan of anything that builds for the future. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 08:13:36 PM
Seems most (if not all) of the relevant baseball writers are calling the Rasmus trade a big win for the Jays;

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/trade-reaction-rasmus-jackson-white-sox.html
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 08:37:18 PM
Seems most (if not all) of the relevant baseball writers are calling the Rasmus trade a big win for the Jays;

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/trade-reaction-rasmus-jackson-white-sox.html


I don't even think that's debatable. Outside of Rzepo, maybe, none of those guys figured to be Jays next year. The risk to the Jays has nothing to do with the Rasmus trade but is all about the Jackson trade.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 08:46:32 PM
Seems most (if not all) of the relevant baseball writers are calling the Rasmus trade a big win for the Jays;

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/trade-reaction-rasmus-jackson-white-sox.html


I don't even think that's debatable. Outside of Rzepo, maybe, none of those guys figured to be Jays next year. The risk to the Jays has nothing to do with the Rasmus trade but is all about the Jackson trade.

I'm not convinced these guys aren't factoring Stewart in to their assessments.

edit: Though I'm not a subscriber to some of these links so I'll leave that to someone who is.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 08:49:11 PM
I'm not convinced these guys aren't factoring Stewart in to their assessments.

It's pretty clear Law is looking at the thing as a whole but the rest of them are pretty specific about the single trade.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 08:53:05 PM
As a spin-off, I really hope we keep Davis as our 4th outfielder/ bench player. I don't want to lose that speed.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 09:00:35 PM
As a spin-off, I really hope we keep Davis as our 4th outfielder/ bench player. I don't want to lose that speed.

I'm with that so long as they limit his AB's. If you've got a .279 OBP you could be Jesse Owens and you won't be scoring a lot of runs.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 09:03:25 PM
As a spin-off, I really hope we keep Davis as our 4th outfielder/ bench player. I don't want to lose that speed.

I'm with that so long as they limit his AB's. If you've got a .279 OBP you could be Jesse Owens and you won't be scoring a lot of runs.

For sure. I want him in as many games as possible with the least amount of ABs as possible... However that works.  ???
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 27, 2011, 09:05:03 PM
For sure. I want him in as many games as possible with the least amount of ABs as possible... However that works.  ???

Google Herb Washington.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 27, 2011, 09:11:17 PM

Google Herb Washington.

the only "Designated Runner" in Major League history... I like it.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 27, 2011, 09:50:21 PM
Wow, Romero comes out to pitch the 9th after throwing 113 pitches already. They REALLY must want to keep it out of the hands of the bullpen, even with a 3-0 lead.

Oops, Guerrero struck out but reached on a wild pitch. And Lee hit by a pitch. The tension mounts!!!
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on July 28, 2011, 03:52:41 AM
Really like this trade.

Creates more competition when Lawrie inevitably comes up.  Assuming he performs well enough, you have Bautista back in RF.  Then you have Snider, Thames, Encarnacion and Davis for the LF/DH spot.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on July 28, 2011, 10:22:49 AM
I like it also...AA really seems to want to build this ship the smart way, not like our buddy JP, by throwing stuff at the wall to se if it will stick...
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Crucialness Key on July 28, 2011, 03:25:44 PM
Think I saw that Snider struck out 4 times last night?  Is he doing that thing again where he's crazy hot long enough for us to get our hopes up, then goes utterly ice cold until we have to send him down?  Because I'd rather have him, y'know, keep on with being really good.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on July 28, 2011, 06:14:45 PM
Hideki Irabu was found dead in his LA home, apparant suicide.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/baseball/mlb/wires/07/28/2010.ap.bbo.hideki.irabu.5th.ld.writethru.0905/
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 28, 2011, 11:59:05 PM
Who's this guy?

(http://chzupnextinsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-sports-pictures-have-you-ever-been-so-happy-you-fountaind-baseball-mlb-fountain.gif)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 29, 2011, 12:07:25 AM
Hideki Irabu was found dead in his LA home, apparant suicide.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/baseball/mlb/wires/07/28/2010.ap.bbo.hideki.irabu.5th.ld.writethru.0905/


Almost forgot about him.  I remember him best as a member of the Yankees.  No doubt, as they say,  he definitely was a pioneer for future Japanese baseball players to play in the major leagues.  Too bad his life ended this way.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on July 29, 2011, 12:08:30 AM
Who's this guy?

(http://chzupnextinsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-sports-pictures-have-you-ever-been-so-happy-you-fountaind-baseball-mlb-fountain.gif)


A human version of Godzilla, blowing 'fire'!!   ;D
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on July 29, 2011, 12:11:14 AM
Who's this guy?

(http://chzupnextinsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-sports-pictures-have-you-ever-been-so-happy-you-fountaind-baseball-mlb-fountain.gif)

Mike "Triple H" McCoy.  haha

I had a chuckle when I initially saw it on TV.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 29, 2011, 09:30:44 AM
Who's this guy?

(http://chzupnextinsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-sports-pictures-have-you-ever-been-so-happy-you-fountaind-baseball-mlb-fountain.gif)

Mike "Triple H" McCoy.  haha

I had a chuckle when I initially saw it on TV.

Awesome. :)

Got a ways to go before he can be called the Game, though. ;D
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 29, 2011, 09:32:03 AM
Oh, Rasmus 0-5 in his first game - probably wanting to impress a little too much in his first game. :)

Hopefully things are uphill from here.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 29, 2011, 09:14:58 PM
Whatever adjustments Cecil's made, it looks like they're working. His past couple starts have been excellent.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 29, 2011, 09:19:32 PM
Whatever adjustments Cecil's made, it looks like they're working. His past couple starts have been excellent.

After his last game, he said it was just a really easy adjustment with his delivery angle. I wish the coaches mentioned it to him earlier!
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 29, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Phillies add Hunter Pence for a couple prospects and a couple PTBNL. I imagine that would just about wrap up the division for them - they improve their offence and get the guy who the Braves were targeting.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on July 29, 2011, 09:38:07 PM
This friggin' pen.  :-[
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on July 30, 2011, 11:20:26 AM
Another solid start for Cecil - that's promising.

Howarth and Ashby were saying that Francisco was being showcased for the Rangers - who would have thought it. Now if the Jays could just find someone to pitch the 9th in close games. :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on July 30, 2011, 11:37:10 AM
Another solid start for Cecil - that's promising.

Howarth and Ashby were saying that Francisco was being showcased for the Rangers - who would have thought it. Now if the Jays could just find someone to pitch the 9th in close games. :)

You would think the Rangers might be familiar with the guy who they had up until he was traded to the Jays.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on July 30, 2011, 11:40:37 AM
You would think the Rangers might be familiar with the guy who they had up until he was traded to the Jays.

True, but after the year he's having they may have wanted to let the Rangers see that his velocity/stuff is still pretty good and that it's more of a between the ears/command issue. If they think they can coach him into being a reasonable approximation of what he was last year they may assign a value to him that his numbers don't warrant.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on July 30, 2011, 11:51:11 AM
True, but after the year he's having they may have wanted to let the Rangers see that his velocity/stuff is still pretty good and that it's more of a between the ears/command issue. If they think they can coach him into being a reasonable approximation of what he was last year they may assign a value to him that his numbers don't warrant.

Yeah, and being that they're familiar with each other, you have to imagine they feel there's a good chance they get him to right the ship., as he pitched fairly well for them. If they miss out on Bell, I almost expect them to make a serious push for Francisco.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on August 02, 2011, 08:36:56 PM
Apparently the Jays have either signed their 2nd rounder LHP Norris or are very close. He was supposed to be a really tough sign.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2011, 08:46:27 PM
Apparently the Jays have either signed their 2nd rounder LHP Morris or are very close. He was supposed to be a really tough sign.

Norris is meeting with the team in Tampa for a physical. This a fairly routine part of the process. I can't find any reliable sources that give any more to the story, other than his own twitter, which says "2 more weeks."
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 02, 2011, 09:03:39 PM

Jonah Keri ranks all 30 teams based on what they did at the deadline over at Grantland. The Jays come in at #2:


 (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6826808/part-1-vanquished[/url)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 02, 2011, 09:28:10 PM
Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
by FAN590
Tim Kurkjian of ESPN is reporting that Jesse Litsch has been traded to the #reds #bluejays #jays
13 minutes ago


Maybe for a little bullpen help? Please?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 02, 2011, 09:30:25 PM
Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
by FAN590
Tim Kurkjian of ESPN is reporting that Jesse Litsch has been traded to the #reds #bluejays #jays
13 minutes ago


Maybe for a little bullpen help? Please?

I have to guess that any post-deadline deal that involves Jesse Litsch isn't going to return anyone who'll step in and immediately help.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 02, 2011, 09:35:03 PM
Wilnerness590 Mike Wilner
by FAN590
Tim Kurkjian of ESPN is reporting that Jesse Litsch has been traded to the #reds #bluejays #jays
13 minutes ago


Maybe for a little bullpen help? Please?

I have to guess that any post-deadline deal that involves Jesse Litsch isn't going to return anyone who'll step in and immediately help.

You're probably right. I'm just desperate to begin rebuilding the pen - Even if it's for a so-so arm.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2011, 09:36:34 PM
I have to guess that any post-deadline deal that involves Jesse Litsch isn't going to return anyone who'll step in and immediately help.

Probably not, but, the Jays were apparently scouting Daniel Corcino, the Reds top pitching prospect, before the deadline. Not sure the Jays could get him for Litsch, but, AA has certainly made a number of surprising moves, so, who knows?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 02, 2011, 09:36:43 PM
Fake twitter maybe... Sorry gang.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 02, 2011, 09:38:18 PM
I have to guess that any post-deadline deal that involves Jesse Litsch isn't going to return anyone who'll step in and immediately help.

Probably not, but, the Jays were apparently scouting Daniel Corcino, the Reds top pitching prospect, before the deadline. Not sure the Jays could get him for Litsch, but, AA has certainly made a number of surprising moves, so, who knows?

Are prospects waiver exempt in a post-deadline deal?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2011, 09:43:37 PM
Are prospects waiver exempt in a post-deadline deal?

Not that it's a pressing issue anymore, being that this deal was reported by a fake account, but, I believe only players on the 40 man roster have to clear waivers. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 02, 2011, 09:52:03 PM
Will Rauch blow it?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2011, 09:52:44 PM
Will Rauch blow it?

With that attitude . . . no.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 02, 2011, 10:59:06 PM
Romero with a huge game. He's really making an effort to earn that All-Star game selection.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 03, 2011, 10:51:08 AM
Baltimore claimed the Jays Jo Jo Reyes off waivers yesterday.

Source: Sportsnet
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 03, 2011, 06:22:36 PM

Pretty amazing career came to an end today. Matt Stairs retired with 265 homeruns, 899 RsBI and 294 doubles. He did this for a record 13 teams and despite not getting a real shot in the majors until he was 27, not being a regular until he was 29.

He was short, he was fat and he was slow but he would get on base and hit for power(a career 117 OPS+). If Moneyball had been written ten years earlier Stairs may have ended up with 400+ homeruns. As is, he retires with a World Series ring and a pretty impressive career.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on August 03, 2011, 07:52:13 PM
What was that 3 straight successful suicide bunts for 3 earned runs? Sweet job...
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 03, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
Carlos V. doesn't get out of the third inning after giving up 8 runs. I'm starting to wonder if the league has started to figure him out - his ERA has gone from under 3 to over 4 in his last four appearances. Hopefully this is just a stretch and he will get back to his earlier season form. 8-1 Rays in the bottom of the 4th.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 03, 2011, 08:48:28 PM

Pretty amazing career came to an end today. Matt Stairs retired with 265 homeruns, 899 RsBI and 294 doubles. He did this for a record 13 teams and despite not getting a real shot in the majors until he was 27, not being a regular until he was 29.

He was short, he was fat and he was slow but he would get on base and hit for power(a career 117 OPS+). If Moneyball had been written ten years earlier Stairs may have ended up with 400+ homeruns. As is, he retires with a World Series ring and a pretty impressive career.
....

Always liked Stairs for that ... did a lot with a little...
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 04, 2011, 01:25:18 AM
Carlos V. doesn't get out of the third inning after giving up 8 runs. I'm starting to wonder if the league has started to figure him out - his ERA has gone from under 3 to over 4 in his last four appearances. Hopefully this is just a stretch and he will get back to his earlier season form. 8-1 Rays in the bottom of the 4th.

It's possible, but I wonder how much fatigue is starting to factor in here as well.  His 12 starts are the most he's had in his career so this is somewhat unchartered territory for him.  Two years ago he pitched 96 innings in 64 appearances (6 of which were starts) -- he's already thrown 95 innings this year in only 25 games.  I wonder if the Jays take the approach of either skipping a start here or there or simply shutting him down as they did with Morrow last year; he's proving to be a valuable member of either the starting rotation as a 4/5 starter or in the bullpen.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 04, 2011, 12:33:34 PM
Good point, Peter. Willner and Blair were just on the FAN discussing this very thing. It is probably a more accurate assessment than mine. :)

That being said, Jays game just started. E5 came up with the bases loaded and none out and leading 1-0 and grounded into a double play. A run scored, but no RBI, again. This guy has been poison coming up with runners in scoring position. He has 27 doubles, 9 home runs, but only 29 RBI. I really hope he improves those stats, or they will probably need to think about moving him out of the 5-hole (he has scored 41 runs, which is 6th on the team) or off the team altogether.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 12:34:56 PM
It's possible, but I wonder how much fatigue is starting to factor in here as well.  His 12 starts are the most he's had in his career so this is somewhat unchartered territory for him.  Two years ago he pitched 96 innings in 64 appearances (6 of which were starts) -- he's already thrown 95 innings this year in only 25 games.  I wonder if the Jays take the approach of either skipping a start here or there or simply shutting him down as they did with Morrow last year; he's proving to be a valuable member of either the starting rotation as a 4/5 starter or in the bullpen.

Apparently, he went for an MRI today (or is scheduled to or something along those lines) because the feeling is that there's something wrong with his arm.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 04, 2011, 12:36:02 PM
It's possible, but I wonder how much fatigue is starting to factor in here as well.  His 12 starts are the most he's had in his career so this is somewhat unchartered territory for him.  Two years ago he pitched 96 innings in 64 appearances (6 of which were starts) -- he's already thrown 95 innings this year in only 25 games.  I wonder if the Jays take the approach of either skipping a start here or there or simply shutting him down as they did with Morrow last year; he's proving to be a valuable member of either the starting rotation as a 4/5 starter or in the bullpen.

Apparently, he went for an MRI today (or is scheduled to or something along those lines) because the feeling is that there's something wrong with his arm.

That would suck. :(

Willner and Blair mentioned today that he had lost some velocity.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 12:42:21 PM
That being said, Jays game just started. E5 came up with the bases loaded and none out and leading 1-0 and grounded into a double play. A run scored, but no RBI, again. This guy has been poison coming up with runners in scoring position. He has 27 doubles, 9 home runs, but only 29 RBI. I really hope he improves those stats, or they will probably need to think about moving him out of the 5-hole (he has scored 41 runs, which is 6th on the team) or off the team altogether.

Although that's one of those scoring things I've never entirely understood. Seems as though a ground ball that produces a run should probably count for an RBI.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 04, 2011, 12:48:36 PM
That being said, Jays game just started. E5 came up with the bases loaded and none out and leading 1-0 and grounded into a double play. A run scored, but no RBI, again. This guy has been poison coming up with runners in scoring position. He has 27 doubles, 9 home runs, but only 29 RBI. I really hope he improves those stats, or they will probably need to think about moving him out of the 5-hole (he has scored 41 runs, which is 6th on the team) or off the team altogether.

Although that's one of those scoring things I've never entirely understood. Seems as though a ground ball that produces a run should probably count for an RBI.

You would think so, but here we are. :)

I'd be interested to know how may RBI he has on double play groundouts.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 12:53:08 PM
You would think so, but here we are. :)

I'd be interested to know how may RBI he has on double play groundouts.

I just looked up his splits and another thing that may be hurting his RBI count is that he's hitting worse the higher up in the order he hits.  He's batting .333 with a .900+ OPS hitting 7th or 8th but around .260 with a .730 OPS hitting 5th or 6th.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
A closer, a closer, my kingdom for a closer. 2 blown extra inning leads so far today.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 03:44:24 PM
A closer, a closer, my kingdom for a closer. 2 blown extra inning leads so far today.

No kidding. Good grief.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 04:03:14 PM
And, third time's a charm. For the Rays, that is. Jays blow leads in the 10th and 11th, and lose the game in 12.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 04:15:55 PM

That, to put it mildly, sucked.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 04:16:19 PM
Listening to Wilner the other night... FWIW, he feels Janssen might be the only returning arm for this pen next year. I hope he's right.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on August 04, 2011, 04:42:41 PM
Please trade for Heath Bell already.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 04:53:23 PM
Lawrie and Perez up. Snider down... Villanueva to the DL.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=373208

Thrilled to finally see Lawrie but how they're handling Snider puzzels me. Just let him try to hit as much MLB pitching as he can for God's sake. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot or anything.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 05:01:54 PM
Thrilled to finally see Lawrie but how they're handling Snider puzzels me. Just let him try to hit as much MLB pitching as he can for God's sake. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot or anything.

THe problem with Snider is that he's not learning anything, and when he struggles at the MLB level, he goes back to the same bad habits that got him demoted in the past and hasn't shown the ability to get away from them. There are some pretty massive holes in his swing right now that MLB pitchers are exploiting, and he hasn't shown that he's willing and/or able to learn how to fix it. You can go on and on about wanting to give him more shots against MLB pitching all you want, but, what I see (and, what I imagine the organization sees) is a player who is unable or unwilling to learn at the MLB level and a situation where increased exposure to MLB pitching is quite likely to do more harm than good. I'd leave him in AAA for the rest of the year while completely rebuilding his approach at the plate, his stance and his swing from the ground up.

EDIT: Seriously, the guy has struck out 20 times in his last 54 ABs. That's unacceptable when he only has 2 extra base hits (and 8 hits overall) in that same span.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 05:17:17 PM
Thrilled to finally see Lawrie but how they're handling Snider puzzels me. Just let him try to hit as much MLB pitching as he can for God's sake. It's not like we're competing for a playoff spot or anything.

THe problem with Snider is that he's not learning anything, and when he struggles at the MLB level, he goes back to the same bad habits that got him demoted in the past and hasn't shown the ability to get away from them. There are some pretty massive holes in his swing right now that MLB pitchers are exploiting, and he hasn't shown that he's willing and/or able to learn how to fix it. You can go on and on about wanting to give him more shots against MLB pitching all you want, but, what I see (and, what I imagine the organization sees) is a player who is unable or unwilling to learn at the MLB level and a situation where increased exposure to MLB pitching is quite likely to do more harm than good. I'd leave him in AAA for the rest of the year while completely rebuilding his approach at the plate, his stance and his swing from the ground up.

EDIT: Seriously, the guy has struck out 20 times in his last 54 ABs. That's unacceptable when he only has 2 extra base hits (and 8 hits overall) in that same span.

I guess. Though I'm truly puzzled about what has happened with him. I mean, he was just such a dominant minor league hitter.   
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 05:23:03 PM
I guess. Though I'm truly puzzled about what has happened with him. I mean, he was just such a dominant minor league hitter.

Minor league pitchers generally have less control over their pitches, which mean they're less able to take advantage of the holes in Snider's swing and they're also going to make more mistakes and leave pitches where he can hit them. MLB pitchers, on the other hand, generally have pretty good command of their pitches and make a lot less mistakes.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 05:28:50 PM
I guess. Though I'm truly puzzled about what has happened with him. I mean, he was just such a dominant minor league hitter.

Minor league pitchers generally have less control over their pitches, which mean they're less able to take advantage of the holes in Snider's swing and they're also going to make more mistakes and leave pitches where he can hit them. MLB pitchers, on the other hand, generally have pretty good command of their pitches and make a lot less mistakes.

True... but do you remember Snider's minor league OPS? Sick. I mean some of that I thought should have translated you'd think.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 05:47:14 PM
True... but do you remember Snider's minor league OPS? Sick. I mean some of that I thought should have translated you'd think.

Baseball prospects...there's no rhyme or reason.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 05:55:02 PM
True... but do you remember Snider's minor league OPS? Sick. I mean some of that I thought should have translated you'd think.

Baseball prospects...there's no rhyme or reason.

Seems the same with my grammar from time to time. What a horribly worded post.  :-[
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 06:07:25 PM

Although it does seem as though Snider is the only guy who gets his PT reduced for poor performance. I'd rather see Snider on the club than Davis.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 06:37:25 PM
Although it does seem as though Snider is the only guy who gets his PT reduced for poor performance. I'd rather see Snider on the club than Davis.

Davis also saw his playing time drastically reduced because of his play and the play of Thames. And, in the long-term, rebuilding Snider in the minors is the better course of action. If he's not starting, Snider shouldn't be on the big club. At least Davis serves a purpose as a bench player, as he's an excellent option for pinch running late in close games.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 06:45:03 PM
Davis also saw his playing time drastically reduced because of his play and the play of Thames. And, in the long-term, rebuilding Snider in the minors is the better course of action. If he's not starting, Snider shouldn't be on the big club. At least Davis serves a purpose as a bench player, as he's an excellent option for pinch running late in close games.

I don't know that "Rebuilding" a baseball player is a definite enough course of action that we can say it's better than giving a guy major league at-bats in the hopes that he adjusts under the tutelage of a MLB hitting coach. Either way, it definitely seems that the string on Snider is shorter than it is for others. Snider got what, 100 at-bats? Davis has 300 this year. Aaron Hill's at 347 AB's with a OPS 30 points lower than Snider and they keep dragging his corpse out there.

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on August 04, 2011, 06:52:26 PM
Davis also saw his playing time drastically reduced because of his play and the play of Thames. And, in the long-term, rebuilding Snider in the minors is the better course of action. If he's not starting, Snider shouldn't be on the big club. At least Davis serves a purpose as a bench player, as he's an excellent option for pinch running late in close games.

I don't know that "Rebuilding" a baseball player is a definite enough course of action that we can say it's better than giving a guy major league at-bats in the hopes that he adjusts under the tutelage of a MLB hitting coach. Either way, it definitely seems that the string on Snider is shorter than it is for others. Snider got what, 100 at-bats? Davis has 300 this year. Aaron Hill's at 347 AB's with a OPS 30 points lower than Snider and they keep dragging his corpse out there.

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

Yeah, there should definitely be other players getting the yank before Snider. He's proved he can hit minor league pitching. Keep him in the bigs and teach him how to make the adjustments to the big league pitchers.

Comes a time when you sink or swim. I'd give Snider the chance at least.
 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 04, 2011, 06:53:55 PM

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

That's where I'm at (right or wrong.) I just find the whole situation weird. - 50% of it being the team's handling of Snider and the other half being Snider himself.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 07:07:37 PM
Yeah, there should definitely be other players getting the yank before Snider. He's proved he can hit minor league pitching. Keep him in the bigs and teach him how to make the adjustments to the big league pitchers.

Comes a time when you sink or swim. I'd give Snider the chance at least.

Except that he hasn't been making adjustments to big league pitchers. In fact, it's quite the opposite - once he starts to struggle, he falls back into the patterns that allow him to be successful in the minors but are easily and frequently exploited in the majors while showing little to no signs of being able to turn it around. I have to believe that they've tried to work with him as much as possible at the MLB level with MLB coaches, and, well, we've all seen the results - nothing has changed for the better. From the looks of things, either he can't learn at the MLB level or he won't learn at the MLB level. I mean, he's had 200 plate appearances this season, roughly the equivalent of 1/3 of what the average MLB player will get - it's not like he's only been given a week or two. Since he came back from the minors, he's actually putting the ball in play less than he did before he went down. I mean, at this point, I'd really be hard-pressed to say he's learned anything this season at any level, and he's just not producing anywhere close to enough to justify keeping him in the line-up with the rate he's getting struck out.

Sure, there comes a time to see if a player will sink or swim, and, well, right now, Snider is sinking and sinking fast.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 07:13:30 PM
Except that he hasn't been making adjustments to big league pitchers. In fact, it's quite the opposite - once he starts to struggle, he falls back into the patterns that allow him to be successful in the minors but are easily and frequently exploited in the majors while showing little to no signs of being able to turn it around. I have to believe that they've tried to work with him as much as possible at the MLB level with MLB coaches, and, well, we've all seen the results - nothing has changed for the better. From the looks of things, either he can't learn at the MLB level or he won't learn at the MLB level. I mean, he's had 200 plate appearances this season, roughly the equivalent of 1/3 of what the average MLB player will get - it's not like he's only been given a week or two. Since he came back from the minors, he's actually putting the ball in play less than he did before he went down. I mean, at this point, I'd really be hard-pressed to say he's learned anything this season at any level, and he's just not producing anywhere close to enough to justify keeping him in the line-up with the rate he's getting struck out.

Sure, there comes a time to see if a player will sink or swim, and, well, right now, Snider is sinking and sinking fast.

But he's already been in the minors where, apparently, they saw enough from him to call him back up. 100 or so PA's since his call-up isn't really a fair stretch to evaluate him.

Again, even 200 PA's isn't much. But to bench him again after half that strikes me as really short-sighted to be that impatient with the good prospect as opposed to other people. He had a .760 OPS in July after a .540 in April. That's not progress?  Let's be fair. You're advocating they send him down based on two bad weeks. His July was actually pretty good.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 07:21:18 PM
I don't know that "Rebuilding" a baseball player is a definite enough course of action that we can say it's better than giving a guy major league at-bats in the hopes that he adjusts under the tutelage of a MLB hitting coach. Either way, it definitely seems that the string on Snider is shorter than it is for others. Snider got what, 100 at-bats? Davis has 300 this year. Aaron Hill's at 347 AB's with a OPS 30 points lower than Snider and they keep dragging his corpse out there.

I just think they should show slightly more patience with Snider.

Of course rebuilding a player's approach is no sure thing, but, without trying it, I'm not sure Snider is on path to become much more than a AAAA player/backup outfielder, and, I think you'd agree that with Snider's potential, that would be a pretty significant disappointment. I'm not sure how much more patient you expect the team to be - they've given him a number of opportunities over the last few seasons to show that he deserves a full time spot on an MLB roster, and he's failed to grasp it every time. Not only has he not really improved, a pretty convincing argument can be made that he's actually regressed. And, if we're being honest, a big part of the reason Davis has seen so much playing time is because A) the choices the team had in CF were him and Patterson and B) Snider has been a disappointment. Had he grabbed a hold of a starting spot earlier in the season, Davis would have been on the bench in May. Hill has only seen so much time because the Jays don't really have a better option at 2B right now that's MLB ready - 2B is the biggest hole in the organization right now.

I mean, look, Snider is only 23, he's still young and there's still time for him to learn, but, why keep him in an environment where not only is he not learning, but one where continued struggles could very easily cause lasting damage to his development as a major league player. In all honesty, as much as I like Snider as a prospect and as much as I hate giving up on young players with so much potential, it's looking more and more like this could be a situation where parting ways could be in the best interests of everyone involved. Whether you want to blame the organization or the player is up to you - obviously, I'm putting the onus on the player, because, well, I can see what he's done much more clearly than I can see what the team has been trying to do with him away from the cameras.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 07:22:21 PM
Again, even 200 PA's isn't much. But to bench him again after half that strikes me as really short-sighted to be that impatient with the good prospect as opposed to other people. He had a .760 OPS in July after a .540 in April. That's not progress?  Let's be fair. You're advocating they send him down based on two bad weeks. His July was actually pretty good.

If I'm advocating sending him down based on 2 bad weeks, you're calling his July "pretty good" based on two good weeks, so . . .
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 07:25:13 PM
If I'm advocating sending him down based on 2 bad weeks, you're calling his July "pretty good" based on two good weeks, so . . .

No, I'm saying a .760 OPS, while nothing to write home about, is pretty good. That was his total for the month. It's especially pretty good considering the April he had.

Snider has always started slowly and progressed. That's what his July indicates, two weeks of a slump aside. I definitely think it's worth giving him at least another month to see if it's an aberration.

I'm fine with reducing his playing time, limiting his AB's against lefties and so on but to try and pass off the month he just had as not showing progress seems kind of nutty to me.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 07:29:05 PM
No, I'm saying a .760 OPS, while nothing to write home about, is pretty good. That was his total for the month. It's especially pretty good considering the April he had.

Snider has always started slowly and progressed. That's what his July indicates, two weeks of a slump aside. I definitely think it's worth giving him at least another month to see if it's an aberration.

I'm fine with reducing his playing time, limiting his AB's against lefties and so on but to try and pass off the month he just had as not showing progress seems kind of nutty to me.

Well, sure, but I'm not just looking at the stats - I'm looking at the way he actually approaches at bats, the way he swings, the type of contact he makes, etc. and, in these areas, things have slowly been getting worse and worse since he started struggling - to the point where he doesn't look any different than the Snider we saw struggle mightily in April and through large stretches of last season as well. His mechanics are flawed, and they're getting worse the longer he's been up with the big club - that's the real issue here, and it's one that he hasn't shown an ability to really turn around while that the big league level.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 07:34:13 PM
I mean, look, Snider is only 23, he's still young and there's still time for him to learn, but, why keep him in an environment where not only is he not learning, but one where continued struggles could very easily cause lasting damage to his development as a major league player.

Well, two reasons. First of all is that you could just as easily impede his development by jerking him around based on a couple of bad weeks. Secondly, they don't have anyone better to replace him with. Thames is not bad but he's regressing a little too and a worse defensive outfielder than Snider. Davis shouldn't be getting any at-bats.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 07:37:29 PM
Well, sure, but I'm not just looking at the stats - I'm looking at the way he actually approaches at bats, the way he swings, the type of contact he makes, etc. and, in these areas, things have slowly been getting worse and worse since he started struggling - to the point where he doesn't look any different than the Snider we saw struggle mightily in April and through large stretches of last season as well. His mechanics are flawed, and they're getting worse the longer he's been up with the big club - that's the real issue here, and it's one that he hasn't shown an ability to really turn around while that the big league level.

When a player slumps his contact, swings and approach are going to look flawed. That's just the nature of what a slump entails. Saying that he's unable to adjust or isn't learning is fine and dandy if you've given him time to do either of those things but a two week slump really isn't enough time to say with any sort of conclusive evidence that he can't adjust or can't learn. Two week slumps happen to good ball players too. He should at least be given the time to see if that's it or if he should be protected against tough lefties.

If there was something concrete to be gained by demoting him, yeah, sure. But there isn't so I don't see a benefit to panic and send down a guy because of a bad stretch.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 07:40:05 PM
Well, two reasons. First of all is that you could just as easily impede his development by jerking him around based on a couple of bad weeks. Secondly, they don't have anyone better to replace him with. Thames is not bad but he's regressing a little too and a worse defensive outfielder than Snider. Davis shouldn't be getting any at-bats.

Well, with Lawrie up starting at 3B, Bautista moves back into the outfield and Thames moves to LF. Davis stays on the bench. And, as for Thames being a worse defensive player, he's an even dWAR player this season, whereas Snider is -0.6, and Thames has better range factor numbers as well, so, the numbers don't support your assertion there.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 07:44:52 PM
Well, with Lawrie up starting at 3B, Bautista moves back into the outfield and Thames moves to LF.

Right, and Snider would be kept up as a 4th outfielder/DH against righthanders. Having Davis in the role doesn't do much outside of pinch running situations which aren't important enough to keep a better player in the minors.

Davis stays on the bench. And, as for Thames being a worse defensive player, he's an even dWAR player this season, whereas Snider is -0.6, and Thames has better range factor numbers as well, so, the numbers don't support your assertion there.

Not actually true. Thames RF/9 in left is 1.69 while Snider's is 1.87. Not that RF is a great stat to begin with.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 07:50:35 PM
Right, and Snider would be kept up as a 4th outfielder/DH against righthanders. Having Davis in the role doesn't do much outside of pinch running situations which are pretty miniscule.

Except that Davis won't be in the DH role against righties - Encarnacion will still be there and likely still would have had that role with Snider on the team. Snider as a pure 4th outfielder doesn't do anyone any good.

Not actually true. Thames RF/9 in left is 1.69 while Snider's is 1.87. Not that RF is a great stat to begin with.

Well, if you want to use Thames 5 games in LF as evidence, sure, but, I was looking at his overall defensive numbers, which largely favour him over Snider.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 07:58:32 PM
Except that Davis won't be in the DH role against righties - Encarnacion will still be there and likely still would have had that role with Snider on the team. Snider as a pure 4th outfielder doesn't do anyone any good.

But that's sort of what I mean. I think it's more valuable for the team if Snider is getting those at-bats and seeing if his struggles can be minimized by having him focusing on hitting right handed pitching. Encarnacion is OPSing .747 against RHP this year so it's not like the team's losing a ton there either.

Well, if you want to use Thames 5 games in LF as evidence, sure, but, I was looking at his overall defensive numbers, which largely favour him over Snider.

Well, I figured LF numbers probably worked better as to who covers more ground in Left. If you want to say small sample size then that's fine but I think most would agree Snider's the faster outfielder with the better arm.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 04, 2011, 08:03:35 PM
But that's sort of what I mean. I think it's more valuable for the team if Snider is getting those at-bats and seeing if his struggles can be minimized by having him focusing on hitting right handed pitching. Encarnacion is OPSing .747 against RHP this year so it's not like the team's losing a ton there either.

No, but it's also a prime reason why Snider is likely spend more time on the bench than he would in the line-up, especially with his recent struggles. Whether or not you feel it would be more valuable is sort of irrelevant when contrasted with what would likely happen. I'd agree it would probably be more valuable as well, but, being that I don't see it working out that way, it's better for him and the organization to have him in AAA.

Well, I figured LF numbers probably worked better as to who covers more ground in Left. If you want to say small sample size then that's fine but I think most would agree Snider's the faster outfielder with the better arm.

Honestly, right now, I'd say it's probably a push when it comes to who is the better defensive player. Snider has the better arm and slightly better speed, but, I feel like Thames reads the ball off the bat a little better and takes better routes to the ball. Either way, the defensive difference is pretty marginal right now.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 04, 2011, 08:06:34 PM
No, but it's also a prime reason why Snider is likely spend more time on the bench than he would in the line-up, especially with his recent struggles. Whether or not you feel it would be more valuable is sort of irrelevant when contrasted with what would likely happen. I'd agree it would probably be more valuable as well, but, being that I don't see it working out that way, it's better for him and the organization to have him in AAA.

I don't think the organization gets to insulate themselves from their dopeyness regarding Snider because, if they kept him up, they'd act even dopier.

He'll go down to AAA, mash the hell out of the ball again and we'll be no further along then we were before. If a "rebuilding" of his swing was going to happen it should have happened the first time that nonsense was trotted out. Not now when  the Jays don't have better options and he's actually hit pretty well in his call-up.

Honestly, right now, I'd say it's probably a push when it comes to who is the better defensive player. Snider has the better arm and slightly better speed, but, I feel like Thames reads the ball off the bat a little better and takes better routes to the ball. Either way, the defensive difference is pretty marginal right now.

I can't agree, as I think Thames has been pretty shaky. Either way, I'd still rather give the AB's to the better prospect and let him run with it.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on August 04, 2011, 09:30:39 PM
Yeah, there should definitely be other players getting the yank before Snider. He's proved he can hit minor league pitching. Keep him in the bigs and teach him how to make the adjustments to the big league pitchers.

Comes a time when you sink or swim. I'd give Snider the chance at least.

Except that he hasn't been making adjustments to big league pitchers. In fact, it's quite the opposite - once he starts to struggle, he falls back into the patterns that allow him to be successful in the minors but are easily and frequently exploited in the majors while showing little to no signs of being able to turn it around. I have to believe that they've tried to work with him as much as possible at the MLB level with MLB coaches, and, well, we've all seen the results - nothing has changed for the better. From the looks of things, either he can't learn at the MLB level or he won't learn at the MLB level. I mean, he's had 200 plate appearances this season, roughly the equivalent of 1/3 of what the average MLB player will get - it's not like he's only been given a week or two. Since he came back from the minors, he's actually putting the ball in play less than he did before he went down. I mean, at this point, I'd really be hard-pressed to say he's learned anything this season at any level, and he's just not producing anywhere close to enough to justify keeping him in the line-up with the rate he's getting struck out.

Sure, there comes a time to see if a player will sink or swim, and, well, right now, Snider is sinking and sinking fast.

Sometimes I feel guys just have to kick it, so to speak, and I was hoping our coaches with the Jays would be able to help him.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 05, 2011, 07:44:10 PM
Nice little hit and RBI for Lawrie in his first MLB at bat.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 05, 2011, 07:44:43 PM
... followed by an error  ::)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 05, 2011, 07:55:49 PM
Now Rasmus with an RBI. Liking this. :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 05, 2011, 09:43:05 PM
2-4 now.  Should've had another RBI really, but runner was thrown out at home.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 05, 2011, 09:44:35 PM

Great googly moogly, how many outs is this team going to run into? I don't know if it's Farrell or what but someone needs to tell someone on this team that getting thrown out is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 05, 2011, 10:02:48 PM
Are people just afraid to tell Rauch he stinks?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 07, 2011, 03:53:37 AM
Total meltdown by Morrow and the Jays last night.  6-2 Baltimore.  Liking that Lawrie guy, though, and Rasmus is still impressing at bat.  Several errors by the Jays cost them. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 07, 2011, 08:45:30 AM
Yeah. Through 5 Morrow was sick. Too bad we had to play 9.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on August 07, 2011, 09:13:06 AM
Total meltdown by Morrow and the Jays last night.  6-2 Baltimore.  Liking that Lawrie guy, though, and Rasmus is still impressing at bat.  Several errors by the Jays cost them.

Meh. He had like 93 pitches through 7.2 innings. 3 of the 4 first runs were all unearned. Then I think the next few were bc of a Hill error (didn't watch that far into the game).

Guy had a perfect game through 5, and if Yunuel doesn't blow that double play ball...who knows.

Two key defensive miscues led to Morrow's meltdown. The guy needs to learn damage control though. Ya he SHOULD have got out of the inning with the dp, but instead he gives up a homerun...
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 07, 2011, 09:47:13 AM
Total meltdown by Morrow and the Jays last night.  6-2 Baltimore.  Liking that Lawrie guy, though, and Rasmus is still impressing at bat.  Several errors by the Jays cost them.

Meh. He had like 93 pitches through 7.2 innings. 3 of the 4 first runs were all unearned. Then I think the next few were bc of a Hill error (didn't watch that far into the game).

Guy had a perfect game through 5, and if Yunuel doesn't blow that double play ball...who knows.

Two key defensive miscues led to Morrow's meltdown. The guy needs to learn damage control though. Ya he SHOULD have got out of the inning with the dp, but instead he gives up a homerun...

Not really a big thing, but the Orioles announcers were saying on that DP ball to Escobar, there was no way they would turn 2 with the guy who hit it running.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 07, 2011, 10:17:14 AM
that assumes he would catch that routine ball tho....
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on August 07, 2011, 03:11:34 PM
Brett Lawrie with his first big league homerun, 5th hit of the series, Jays up 6 - 1 in the six, Romero with another solid game.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on August 07, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
that assumes he would catch that routine ball tho....

Ya, I'm pretty sure Morrow got 1 out after the E anyways. Even getting the force out at 2nd would have allowed them to get out of the inning.

Either way...whatever. It's over. They're gonna win the series anyways. A sweep would've been nice. But Morrow pitched very well up to that point, unhittable.

It's frustrating how good he looked that game to have him just collapse after 1 play doesn't go his way.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 08, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/08/08/jays_alvarez_jays/

I'm excited to see Alvarez. I hear can just smoke 'em.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 08, 2011, 09:03:23 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/08/08/jays_alvarez_jays/

I'm excited to see Alvarez. I hear can just smoke 'em.

Should be interesting. I don't imagine he'll be up for long - my guess this is one of those 'give the guy a couple starts against big leaguers so he knows what he has to work on' type deals - but, it could definitely be fun to watch.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 08, 2011, 09:06:27 PM
Nothing concrete, but, rumblings around the twittersphere is that drift picks Daniel Norris and Matt Dean are close to signing contracts with the Jays. Both guys are considered tough signs with high ceilings, so, that's a good sign. Hopefully, Beede, Comer, Stilson and Smith will follow suit.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 08, 2011, 09:12:10 PM
Nothing concrete, but, rumblings around the twittersphere is that drift picks Daniel Norris and Matt Dean are close to signing contracts with the Jays. Both guys are considered tough signs with high ceilings, so, that's a good sign. Hopefully, Beede, Comer, Stilson and Smith will follow suit.

Here's hoping... Didn't we have a list of the signed/unsigned in the old place?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 08, 2011, 09:25:14 PM
Here's hoping... Didn't we have a list of the signed/unsigned in the old place?

Don't believe so. There's one in the prosportsdaily.com forums, though.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 08, 2011, 09:28:49 PM
Here's hoping... Didn't we have a list of the signed/unsigned in the old place?

Don't believe so. There's one in the prosportsdaily.com forums, though.

Ah. Cheers.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on August 08, 2011, 10:53:00 PM
http://forum.okbluejays.com/index.php?topic=1931.0

Can follow alot of the signings there
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 08, 2011, 11:37:42 PM
Don't recall if it was mentioned here?  McGowan finished his rehab in A and has moved up to AA and will start/have an increased pitch count.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on August 09, 2011, 01:34:48 AM
Don't recall if it was mentioned here?  McGowan finished his rehab in A and has moved up to AA and will start/have an increased pitch count.

Awesome.  More detail:  http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110808&content_id=22934448&vkey=affililiate&c_id=tor
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 10, 2011, 01:44:24 AM
Jays' starter Ricky Romero chosen as A.L. player-of-the-week.

Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on August 10, 2011, 03:31:08 PM
Interesting article on ESPN.com about an accusation that the Jays are stealing signs at home.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 10, 2011, 03:38:43 PM
Interesting article on ESPN.com about an accusation that the Jays are stealing signs at home.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

Something wrong with stealing signs? Part of the came as far as I'm concerned. Furthermore, anyone else find it annoying that teams with 2/3 times the payroll the Jays have are complaining?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 10, 2011, 05:56:39 PM
Interesting article on ESPN.com about an accusation that the Jays are stealing signs at home.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

Unnamed players on unnamed team claim to have seen mysterious man in white? Sounds like tabloid quality stuff to me.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 10, 2011, 06:24:28 PM
Interesting article on ESPN.com about an accusation that the Jays are stealing signs at home.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

Unnamed players on unnamed team claim to have seen mysterious man in white? Sounds like tabloid quality stuff to me.

Apparently that unnamed team has been identified as the Chicago White Sox according to Prime Time Sports.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 10, 2011, 06:57:43 PM
Interesting article on ESPN.com about an accusation that the Jays are stealing signs at home.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

It is something that's dogged the team for a while now. I hope they're not, as it's pretty dirty pool.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 10, 2011, 07:02:10 PM
Interesting article on ESPN.com about an accusation that the Jays are stealing signs at home.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

It is something that's dogged the team for a while now. I hope they're not, as it's pretty dirty pool.

If signs are being stolen from outside the field of play as reports are now suggesting then yeah, shame on us if true. If it's from within, too fricken' bad... suck it up and change your signs.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 10, 2011, 07:45:45 PM
If signs are being stolen from outside the field of play as reports are now suggesting then yeah, shame on us if true. If it's from within, too fricken' bad... suck it up and change your signs.

Yeah. As long as it's not someone sitting somewhere with binoculars or the like, then it's just part of the game and has been for more than 100 years. Also, considering the commissioner's office is saying they haven't actually received a complaint about it from anyone, I wouldn't put too much stock into this. I mean, if a team legitimately saw what this article claims they saw, a formal complaint would have been filed, without a doubt.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 10, 2011, 08:24:06 PM
I like Arencibia's responses on twitter:

Quote
"I'm hitting 200 and we get signs at home, that makes sense #clowns"

"Teams/pitchers need to accept when we kick their [a--] in the rogers centre n not give excuses Ö Looks like we had verlanders signs #nohitter"


Curtis Granderson says he couldn't see anything from the dugout, being too far away, but somehow the Jays are using some guy's signs 300-400 feet away in a crowd?

That story paints one sophisticated network of sign stealing.

Also found this slightly amusing, worth a wry smile:

Quote
FriedgeHNIC Elliotte Friedman
Interesting that White Sox at centre of sign-stealing allegations. One of their old coaches, Joe Nossek, was known as a master of that art.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 10, 2011, 09:15:26 PM
And Lawrie just hit a grand slam to put the Jays up 6-3.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on August 10, 2011, 09:18:17 PM
And Lawrie just hit a grand slam to put the Jays up 6-3.

Oh man, that is one excited young man.    :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 10, 2011, 09:23:21 PM
And Lawrie just hit a grand slam to put the Jays up 6-3.

The kid's got some pop in that bat, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 10, 2011, 09:24:24 PM
Good on that kid!!! :)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on August 10, 2011, 09:30:50 PM
One of the top moments this season. Electric.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 10, 2011, 09:59:41 PM
Oh man I hope this is a sign of things to come with Lawrie.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 10, 2011, 10:07:22 PM
Quote
Vernon Wells has checked in on the case of the man in the white shirt. From Anaheim, VW said it's ridiculous, laughable. Case closed.
by rgriffinstar via twitter 11:44 AM

(http://twitpic.com/show/large/643spn)


Also.....another McGowan update:

Quote
TORONTO -- Dustin McGowan took another step forward in his possible return to the Major Leagues with an impressive outing for Double-A New Hampshire on Wednesday afternoon.

McGowan allowed just one hit and two walks while striking out four in four scoreless innings. It was his first start for the Fisher Cats after making his first seven rehab appearances with Class-A Dunedin.

The 29-year-old, who hasn't appeared in the big leagues since 2008 because of a variety of shoulder injuries, got through the four innings on just 43 pitches. That fell short of his 65-pitch limit, but the Blue Jays had predetermined he wouldn't surpass four frames.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110810&content_id=23031526&notebook_id=23036460&vkey=notebook_tor&c_id=tor


EDIT: And finally....a touching story involving Bautista and a diehard fan dying of cancer: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/10/bautsita-knocks-one-out-of-the-park-for-ailing-jays-fan
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 11, 2011, 12:44:46 AM
I find the sign stealing allegation ridiculous.  But for discussion sake, I really don't find it to be a big deal if it were true.  I suppose it's another layer added to the whole notion of home field advantage.  Plus, should the onus not be on the team to adapt and adjust and mix up their signs at any hint of this?  What a load of bunk.

Anyways, was at the game tonight.  I was right by the foul pole when Lawrie hit the grand slam and it seemed like an eternity that the ball was in the air waiting to come down.  He is going to make the SkyDome an electric place again.  His defensive work at 3rd needs a lot of refining, but for the moment, his bat can do all the talking for him.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 11, 2011, 08:23:29 AM
I find the sign stealing allegation ridiculous.  But for discussion sake, I really don't find it to be a big deal if it were true.  I suppose it's another layer added to the whole notion of home field advantage.  Plus, should the onus not be on the team to adapt and adjust and mix up their signs at any hint of this?  What a load of bunk.

I couldn't disagree more. There are very good reasons why this sort of thing shouldn't be done or allowed.

To start with, if this practice were acceptable, there's no reason why the Yankees couldn't park a guy right next to the Jays guy in CF(assuming there is one) and do the exact same thing. So there is no reason why it'd be a "home field advantage". It'd just make stealing signs part of the game.

Worse than that, it'd make stealing signs a really important part of the game. A baseball game would then be hugely impacted by the actions of a non-player sitting in CF as opposed to the players on the field. Suddenly the abilities of a team to steal signs, and the technology to relay them, would be another area of competition between teams. Call me old-fashioned but I'd rather it be about which guys are better at playing baseball.

And where would it end? Tapped bullpen phones? Bugs in clubhouses?

Like people have said, if you can get a runner to second base, try to steal a sign. But having non-players stealing signs in the bleachers would violate a pretty fundamental aspect of the game(that being that a hitter shouldn't know what's coming).
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 11, 2011, 09:06:41 AM
I couldn't disagree more. There are very good reasons why this sort of thing shouldn't be done or allowed.

To start with, if this practice were acceptable, there's no reason why the Yankees couldn't park a guy right next to the Jays guy in CF(assuming there is one) and do the exact same thing. So there is no reason why it'd be a "home field advantage". It'd just make stealing signs part of the game.

Worse than that, it'd make stealing signs a really important part of the game. A baseball game would then be hugely impacted by the actions of a non-player sitting in CF as opposed to the players on the field. Suddenly the abilities of a team to steal signs, and the technology to relay them, would be another area of competition between teams. Call me old-fashioned but I'd rather it be about which guys are better at playing baseball.

And where would it end? Tapped bullpen phones? Bugs in clubhouses?

Like people have said, if you can get a runner to second base, try to steal a sign. But having non-players stealing signs in the bleachers would violate a pretty fundamental aspect of the game(that being that a hitter shouldn't know what's coming).

Weren't the Yankees accused of stealing/flashing signs with their scoreboard a years ago?  Something to the effect of one blinking light on the bottom corner suggested one pitch, two flashes suggested another.  Doesn't necessarily have to be a fan sitting in centre field and that's what I'd consider home-field advantage.   And I highly doubt that the Jays/Yankees *supposedly* are the first team to try this.

I must really be missing something here because I just can't wrap my head around the legitimacy of such thing.  I sit at home with the camera zoomed in on the catcher flashing a whack of signs and the majority of the time I have no clue what's going to be thrown.  For someone to be 400 feet away and to relay an accurate sign within a matter of seconds before the pitch is thrown to the plate is pretty damn impressive.

Tapped bullpens, bugs in clubhouses -- even those I question how much impact they'd have.  I could sit behind home plate and yell "outside", "inside" and so on and I doubt that it'd have much of an impact on the team's hitting ability.  I'd love to find out first that teams can, with their naked eye, from the dugout for instance, be able to steal the signs of the opposing team's base coaches to know what play they intend to implement.  Sure, things are picked up, but I do believe that the onus is on the opposing team to either run a different set of signs or hide them better if they feel there is some sort of outside interference.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 11, 2011, 09:12:23 AM
Wasn't really what I was thinking of, but just one accusation against the Yankees from the beginning of this year:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/sports/baseball/03signs.html?_r=1

Another ballpark accusation:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/La-Russa-files-complaint-over-Miller-Park-scoreb?urn=mlb-wp14755

A story from 1997:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1010455/index.htm
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 11, 2011, 09:18:00 AM
Players using 'roids" violated a pretty fundamental aspect of the game didnt it? Cheating.... so what ? Didnt stop them until they got caught.... so change things up to be more confusing. like the signs from 3rd.... whats the biggie? 1=breaking ball, 3=fastball... etc.... thats no big stretch is it? MIx it up between innings... its not like these guys are memorizing a lunch sequence at NASA or anything
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 11, 2011, 09:44:33 AM
With the exception of Maybe Aaron Hill, the Jays now have a collection of talent at every position that I'm genuinely excited to see game in, game out. Most (maybe all of them) are young, high ceiling guys who could be All-Stars one day. I'd even categorize a few of our arms who are already up here that way too. This is all of course saying nothing of quite a large collection of fine prospects who we haven't seen yet. I'm confident the bullpen will be sorted out by next spring. Man, I'm really stoked about this team.   
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 11, 2011, 09:50:14 AM
You got that right Floyd
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 11, 2011, 09:52:38 AM
Weren't the Yankees accused of stealing/flashing signs with their scoreboard a years ago?  Something to the effect of one blinking light on the bottom corner suggested one pitch, two flashes suggested another.  Doesn't necessarily have to be a fan sitting in centre field and that's what I'd consider home-field advantage.   And I highly doubt that the Jays/Yankees *supposedly* are the first team to try this.

I'm not really sure what your point is here. There have been lots of teams trying things they shouldn't over the years. It doesn't change that it's not something you're supposed to do and the reason you're not supposed to do it is because it changes the game and emphasizes things that don't happen on the field of play.

I must really be missing something here because I just can't wrap my head around the legitimacy of such thing.  I sit at home with the camera zoomed in on the catcher flashing a whack of signs and the majority of the time I have no clue what's going to be thrown

But you're also not someone who's around big league signs and know the way teams do things. If it was your job to study game film and break the signs down it could probably be done pretty quickly.

Tapped bullpens, bugs in clubhouses -- even those I question how much impact they'd have.  I could sit behind home plate and yell "outside", "inside" and so on and I doubt that it'd have much of an impact on the team's hitting ability.  I'd love to find out first that teams can, with their naked eye, from the dugout for instance, be able to steal the signs of the opposing team's base coaches to know what play they intend to implement.  Sure, things are picked up, but I do believe that the onus is on the opposing team to either run a different set of signs or hide them better if they feel there is some sort of outside interference.

Well, regardless of the level of the impact it may or may not have it's still a game of baseball and not the Cold War. Teams shouldn't be trying to win by means of sophisticated technological espionage.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 11, 2011, 10:10:39 AM
I'm not really sure what your point is here. There have been lots of teams trying things they shouldn't over the years. It doesn't change that it's not something you're supposed to do and the reason you're not supposed to do it is because it changes the game and emphasizes things that don't happen on the field of play.

I'm more frustrated that the Jays are categorized as such huge cheaters in this whole thing as if this is some new shocking revelation where in fact it's been going on for years.  I'm curious to know how much traction this story would get on the negative side if it were the Yankees instead of the Jays.

But you're also not someone who's around big league signs and know the way teams do things. If it was your job to study game film and break the signs down it could probably be done pretty quickly.

Well, regardless of the level of the impact it may or may not have it's still a game of baseball and not the Cold War. Teams shouldn't be trying to win by means of sophisticated technological espionage.

Unfortunately, technology has a huge impact in today's world, sports included.  Perhaps studying game film and breaking down pitchers' and players' tendencies should be frowned upon as well. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 11, 2011, 10:41:15 AM
I'm more frustrated that the Jays are categorized as such huge cheaters in this whole thing as if this is some new shocking revelation where in fact it's been going on for years.  I'm curious to know how much traction this story would get on the negative side if it were the Yankees instead of the Jays.

Leaving aside the fact that the Yankees get a metric ton of negative press, nobody gets insulation from doing something wrong on the grounds that other people have done it in the past. Even still, this is from that New York Times story you quoted:

Quote
Baseball operations bulletin C-4 forbids team employees from using hand signals to convey pitch speeds and types.

So it's not something you're allowed to do.

Unfortunately, technology has a huge impact in today's world, sports included.  Perhaps studying game film and breaking down pitchers' and players' tendencies should be frowned upon as well.

Or, to use a similarly ridiculous argument, maybe you'd be fine with the Blue Jays slipping knockout drops into the visiting team's Gatorade. After all, show me where in the rule book it says you can't?

The issue isn't the use of technology, it's that you'd be effectively changing the nature of the game and encouraging teams to win by virtue of off-field shenanigans.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on August 11, 2011, 10:46:27 AM
I think it would be hilarious if it turns out that indeed there was no sign stealing and that it was just some fan in a white shirt messing around with the heads of opposing teams.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Green Leaf on August 11, 2011, 11:33:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9W9VdKt1WI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9W9VdKt1WI)

Can I be the first to say.. Rogers Centre.. please cue this song...
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 11, 2011, 01:38:02 PM
Looks like Mills got thumped pretty good in the 3rd inning today. 6-0 Oakland going to the bottom of the 3rd. OUCH.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on August 11, 2011, 04:20:36 PM
How does Dan Uggla have a 31-game-hit-streak and a .224 batting average?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on August 11, 2011, 04:38:39 PM
How does Dan Uggla have a 31-game-hit-streak and a .224 batting average?

He goes 1 for 5 a lot?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on August 11, 2011, 05:38:32 PM
How does Dan Uggla have a 31-game-hit-streak and a .224 batting average?

He was hitting around .170 before he started the streak.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: cw on August 11, 2011, 07:37:13 PM
Why wouldn't these guys take a video of the guy stealing signs? It amazes me that we haven't seen video evidence of this claim by now and because of the lack of it, it makes me question their claims.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 11, 2011, 07:39:38 PM
Why wouldn't these guys take a video of the guy stealing signs? It amazes me that we haven't seen video evidence of this claim by now and because of the lack of it, it makes me question their claims.

Well frankly, accusations never require evidence thats why
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Spare Change on August 11, 2011, 11:05:54 PM
Why wouldn't these guys take a video of the guy stealing signs? It amazes me that we haven't seen video evidence of this claim by now and because of the lack of it, it makes me question their claims.

Well frankly, accusations never require evidence thats why
Reminds me of that senators comments on abortion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaB69vv-iY
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 12, 2011, 07:27:52 PM
Vernon Wells just homered to put the Angels up 1-0.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 13, 2011, 04:04:42 AM
Jays lost to the Angels last night, 5-1.  It was an emotional Wells, receiving a standing ovation from the Jays' faithful....


The former Blue Jays star stepped back and raised his helmet in acknowledgment as he made his first plate appearance in Toronto in another team's uniform.

"I just tried to hold back the emotion in that moment," Wells said.... It's just a moment I'll never forget."


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2011/08/12/sp-mlb-laa-tor.html
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 13, 2011, 09:50:22 AM
I (like a lot of fans) was hard on Wells towards the end too but with that said, a standing "O" is well deserved. - I missed this one... I would have liked to have seen that.   
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 14, 2011, 01:16:10 PM
Cecil gives up a 2-run shot in the first. Pretty much all his pitches to that point had been up in the strike zone so it wasn't a surprise to me that he got rocked. The last out was better, keeping the ball down, so here's hoping he settles down.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 14, 2011, 06:37:43 PM
Jays win today 5-4 over the Angels.  Edwin Encarnacion singled in the 10th inning for the winning run.  Prior to that, Brett Lawrie doubled in the ninth to tie the game.

John Rauch got the win.

Rajal Davis of the Blue Jays pulled a hamstring in the game, and was placed on the 15-day disabled list.  Call-up Mike McCoy is his replacement.


Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on August 14, 2011, 08:04:16 PM
Jays win today 5-4 over the Angels.  Edwin Encarnacion singled in the 10th inning for the winning run.  Prior to that, Brett Lawrie doubled in the ninth to tie the game.

John Rauch got the win.

Rajal Davis of the Blue Jays pulled a hamstring in the game, and was placed on the 15-day disabled list.  Call-up Mike McCoy is his replacement.


Source:  Sportsnet

I heard it was a torn hamstring.....

It will be interesting to see if Beede signs before tomorrow by midnight.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 14, 2011, 09:40:12 PM
Love the new blood with Rasmus and Lawrie.... I hope it leads to better things... I am hopefully optimistic
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on August 14, 2011, 11:21:09 PM
Jays win today 5-4 over the Angels.  Edwin Encarnacion singled in the 10th inning for the winning run.  Prior to that, Brett Lawrie doubled in the ninth to tie the game.

John Rauch got the win.

Rajal Davis of the Blue Jays pulled a hamstring in the game, and was placed on the 15-day disabled list.  Call-up Mike McCoy is his replacement.


Source:  Sportsnet

I heard it was a torn hamstring.....

It will be interesting to see if Beede signs before tomorrow by midnight.

Beede and Norris please and thankyew :)

Signed Dwight Smith Jr. earlier today.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 15, 2011, 01:13:23 AM
Jays win today 5-4 over the Angels.  Edwin Encarnacion singled in the 10th inning for the winning run.  Prior to that, Brett Lawrie doubled in the ninth to tie the game.

John Rauch got the win.

Rajal Davis of the Blue Jays pulled a hamstring in the game, and was placed on the 15-day disabled list.  Call-up Mike McCoy is his replacement.


Source:  Sportsnet

I heard it was a torn hamstring.....

It will be interesting to see if Beede signs before tomorrow by midnight.


Yes, it was a torn left hamstring.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 15, 2011, 10:48:35 PM
With only minutes remaining before the signing deadline for players taken in the 2011 MLB draft, I'd like to, once again, express my disdain for the current system.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 15, 2011, 11:11:12 PM
With only minutes remaining before the signing deadline for players taken in the 2011 MLB draft, I'd like to, once again, express my disdain for the current system.

Could change... But hopefully not to the extent where we miss compinsation if it comes down to that of course.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 15, 2011, 11:14:36 PM
Lawrie. What a bat!
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 15, 2011, 11:17:35 PM
Could change... But hopefully not to the extent where we miss compinsation if it comes down to that of course.

There's a good chance compensation for free agents will be gone after this winter, which kinda sucks, as taking advantage of appears to be a favoured tactic of AA, but, at the same time, in a way, punishes teams like the BoSox and Yankees a little more, as they tend to have more Type A guys. I just really think the whole slotting system is a joke - no one seems to pay attention to it. Hard slotting or a rookie cap is the way to go, and the signing deadline shoudl really be extended - I'd give teams until 48 hours before the next draft or something like that instead of the 2 and a half months they get to sign 50 rounds of picks.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 15, 2011, 11:18:54 PM
Lawrie just homered to put the Jays up 5-4, in front of 50 or so family/friends in Seattle.

EDIT: And I would have posted this earlier if it didn't stop my post because someone else had posted again.  Rage. >:(
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 15, 2011, 11:21:05 PM
Could change... But hopefully not to the extent where we miss compinsation if it comes down to that of course.

There's a good chance compensation for free agents will be gone after this winter, which kinda sucks, as taking advantage of appears to be a favoured tactic of AA, but, at the same time, in a way, punishes teams like the BoSox and Yankees a little more, as they tend to have more Type A guys. I just really think the whole slotting system is a joke - no one seems to pay attention to it. Hard slotting or a rookie cap is the way to go, and the signing deadline shoudl really be extended - I'd give teams until 48 hours before the next draft or something like that instead of the 2 and a half months they get to sign 50 rounds of picks.

Yeah, I don't get it either... and I do hope compensatipon remains.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:07:05 AM
Looks like the Jays missed out on Beede, but managed to sign Norris. At least they got one of the two.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 16, 2011, 12:12:44 AM
Looks like the Jays missed out on Beede, but managed to sign Norris. At least they got one of the two.

Actually, it looks like we didn't sign Comer either who, like Norris, was the other unsigned sandwich pick. All in all, still not a bad haul at the draft.... Now let's see how they do...

Edit: Pardon me... Norris was a second rounder, Comer was a sammy.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:15:43 AM
Actually, it looks like we didn't sign Comer either who, like Norris, was the other unsigned sandwich pick. All in all, still not a bad haul at the draft.... Now let's see how they do...

Edit: Pardon me... Norris was a second rounder, Comer was a sammy.

Yeah. Woudl have like at least one of those 2, but, at least the Jays will get compensation picks for not signing them. Unfortunately, next year's draft isn't supposed to be as strong as this year's, but . . .
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 16, 2011, 12:17:39 AM
keithlawkeithlaw

Saw conflicting reports but Comer signed with Toronto $1.65MM

Sounds like Comer did sign.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:18:57 AM
keithlawkeithlaw

Saw conflicting reports but Comer signed with Toronto $1.65MM

Sounds like Comer did sign.

Yeah. I just saw that. Good to hear. I would have preferred Beede, since his stuff is reportedly better, but, Comer is not a bad consolation prize at all.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 16, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Actually, it looks like we didn't sign Comer either who, like Norris, was the other unsigned sandwich pick. All in all, still not a bad haul at the draft.... Now let's see how they do...

Edit: Pardon me... Norris was a second rounder, Comer was a sammy.

Yeah. Woudl have like at least one of those 2, but, at least the Jays will get compensation picks for not signing them. Unfortunately, next year's draft isn't supposed to be as strong as this year's, but . . .

Still. We get the same picks back +1. So, that means #22 + #58 I belive. Not bad... Plus our own picks of course and whatever other sammy's you know AA will acquire. Still should be another productive draft.

Edit: Comer signed. Oops.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:28:29 AM
Apparently, Beede turned down $2.5M. Looks like his heart was really set on going to Vanderbilt. Though, with the potential for hard slotting in future drafts, he may come to regret that decision a little bit - especially if he gets hurts or doesn't dominate college ball like he did high school. I know money isn't everything, but, having that much coin in the bank can certainly make a lot of things in life a lot easier.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 16, 2011, 12:33:59 AM
Going into the signing deadline, popular opinion seemed to be 2 of Norris, Comer and Beede would have been a success.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 16, 2011, 12:39:44 AM
Wait. Martinez said we get picks #21 + #22. I just thought it was the the slot + 1 down... We actually get the #21 slot AND the slot down?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:41:31 AM
Wait. Martinez said we get picks #21 + #22. I just thought it was the the slot + 1 down... We actually get the #21 slot AND the slot down?

I'm pretty much certain Buck is wrong - unless the Jays finish high enough in the standings so that their 2012 1st would be #21.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:42:51 AM
Going into the signing deadline, popular opinion seemed to be 2 of Norris, Comer and Beede would have been a success.

Yeah. Getting those 2 along with Stilson and Dean make for a pretty good draft for the team. Certainly takes some of sting away from not being able to sign their 1st rounder.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 16, 2011, 12:43:43 AM
Wait. Martinez said we get picks #21 + #22. I just thought it was the the slot + 1 down... We actually get the #21 slot AND the slot down?

I'm pretty much certain Buck is wrong - unless the Jays finish high enough in the standings so that their 2012 1st would be #21.

+1... That's a pretty glaring error on his part.... but then again, he was calling his "trade deadline" night for much of it so...
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 16, 2011, 12:44:49 AM
Miller with the blown save, now John Rauch looks to have earned the loss.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:45:43 AM
Beede appears to be the only 1st rounder to not sign, which stings a little - but, he was known to be a tough sign before the draft. AA and his scouting staff gambled and lost. Not the end of the world, but, still, disappointing.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 16, 2011, 12:50:11 AM
Beede appears to be the only 1st rounder to not sign, which stings a little - but, he was known to be a tough sign before the draft. AA and his scouting staff gambled and lost. Not the end of the world, but, still, disappointing.

On the bright side though, there's 2.5 mil. in the bank for the draft.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 12:54:40 AM
Beede appears to be the only 1st rounder to not sign, which stings a little - but, he was known to be a tough sign before the draft. AA and his scouting staff gambled and lost. Not the end of the world, but, still, disappointing.

On the bright side though, there's 2.5 mil. in the bank for the draft.

Would rather have had the better talent that what's likely to be available to them next season, but, that's life - especially since the #22 won't be a protected pick, so, the Jays will likely go with an easier sign than a higher ceiling risk.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 16, 2011, 01:02:25 AM
Beede appears to be the only 1st rounder to not sign, which stings a little - but, he was known to be a tough sign before the draft. AA and his scouting staff gambled and lost. Not the end of the world, but, still, disappointing.

On the bright side though, there's 2.5 mil. in the bank for the draft.

Would rather have had the better talent that what's likely to be available to them next season, but, that's life - especially since the #22 won't be a protected pick, so, the Jays will likely go with an easier sign than a higher ceiling risk.

Sure... but like you said, not the end of the world. 2.5 mil is 2.5 mil. Could be used elsewhere too.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 16, 2011, 01:21:35 AM

Good to see that League is finally putting together some of his potential.

Sucks about Beede but I guess that's the double-edged sword of building through the draft. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 16, 2011, 01:22:10 AM
While on the subject of draft signings, the Chicago Cubs seventh-round pick, Trevor Gretzky, signed a contract with the Cubs, and will be assigned to the one of two minor league affiliates.  Apparently, the younger Gretzky, whose father Wayne began his pro hockey career at the age of 17 with the Indianapolis Racers, of the then WHA, chose to forgo going back to college at San Diego State, and opt instead, at signing a $375.000 contract with the Cubs, also at age 17.


Trevor Gretzky will have to showcase his baseball skills in the minor leagues, and hopefully, will one day be given a chance with the big club.  Not a bad thing to do, for a 17 year old, who seems confident enough to try out his baseball career instead of furthering his college years.  Good luck to him!




http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6857270/chicago-cubs-sign-trevor-gretzky-son-hockey-great-wayne-gretzky (http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6857270/chicago-cubs-sign-trevor-gretzky-son-hockey-great-wayne-gretzky)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 16, 2011, 01:44:18 AM

So apparently the Jays and Beede weren't close, with the Jays offering 2.5 and Beede wanting at least 3.5. In the context of major league baseball a million bucks seems like an odd gap to lose a first rounder over but I guess that's the nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 16, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
Frustrating to wake up to hear that Rauch gave up yet another home run to end the game.  ::)  I still can't get over how someone so big throws so soft.

Beede -- heard he can't re-enter the draft until 2014.  That seems like a long time for a youngster.  I understand trying to get better to be picked higher and thus get paid even better, but a lot could go wrong during that time as well.

Finally, has anyone put up a quieter 600 home runs than Jim Thome?  Congrats to him.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Damian on August 16, 2011, 08:22:09 AM
Jim Thome, the quietest 600 home runs ever... love that
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 16, 2011, 08:42:09 AM
Frustrating to wake up to hear that Rauch gave up yet another home run to end the game.  ::)  I still can't get over how someone so big throws so soft.

Beede -- heard he can't re-enter the draft until 2014.  That seems like a long time for a youngster.  I understand trying to get better to be picked higher and thus get paid even better, but a lot could go wrong during that time as well.

Finally, has anyone put up a quieter 600 home runs than Jim Thome?  Congrats to him.

Beede could also find himself subject to new compensation rules for draft picks.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 16, 2011, 09:13:25 AM

Thome will be a weird HOF case. On the one hand he's got the great career numbers. On the other he's got some pretty unimpressive credentials outside of it. Only one silver slugger award in the trophy case, unimpressive post-season record, his highest MVP finish is 4th, only five ASG's.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 16, 2011, 09:34:59 AM

Thome will be a weird HOF case. On the one hand he's got the great career numbers. On the other he's got some pretty unimpressive credentials outside of it. Only one silver slugger award in the trophy case, unimpressive post-season record, his highest MVP finish is 4th, only five ASG's.

Thome to me is baseball's version of Chris Osgood.  As you say, the numbers are there, but when thinking of Jim Thome, you don't automatically think to yourself, "Now that's a Hall of Famer."  The guys on SportsNet kept referring to him as a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer based on reaching the impressive accomplishment.  I do think he gets in, but Jim Thome doesn't strike me as a first ballot type.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 16, 2011, 10:33:40 AM
Thome to me is baseball's version of Chris Osgood.  As you say, the numbers are there, but when thinking of Jim Thome, you don't automatically think to yourself, "Now that's a Hall of Famer."

It's not the comparison I'd use just because whereas I think Osgood making the HHOF would rank up there with Clark Gillies or Glenn Anderson as one of the worst decisions they ever made, Thome isn't that bad. Osgood doesn't really have the numbers outside of the worst possible statistical measurement of a goaltender's ability. Thome's numbers are uniformly good. His career OBP is .403, career SLG is .558. His career OPS+ is 147.

Osgood would be making it entirely on the backs of his teammates. The issue with Thome is that his average season was 35-40 homeruns and 100 RBI's at a time when the Brad Fullmer's of the world were hitting 30 homeruns with 90 RBI's. Thome's career WAR is just at 71.1.

A good comparison with Thome, to my mind, is Jeff Bagwell. Bagwell put up numbers that, if he'd put them up in any other era, would have seen him as a first ballot HOFer. As is he only got 41.7% of the vote. Bagwell's actually a tough comp for Thome. Bagwell has slightly better numbers, won more awards and was a good defensive 1B. Bagwell's career WAR is 79.9. HOF voters may be impressed with the raw HR numbers but that's about all Thome has going for him compared to some of the other slugging 1B of his day.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on August 16, 2011, 10:59:33 AM
Thome to me is baseball's version of Chris Osgood.  As you say, the numbers are there, but when thinking of Jim Thome, you don't automatically think to yourself, "Now that's a Hall of Famer."

It's not the comparison I'd use just because whereas I think Osgood making the HHOF would rank up there with Clark Gillies or Glenn Anderson as one of the worst decisions they ever made, Thome isn't that bad. Osgood doesn't really have the numbers outside of the worst possible statistical measurement of a goaltender's ability. Thome's numbers are uniformly good. His career OBP is .403, career SLG is .558. His career OPS+ is 147.

Osgood would be making it entirely on the backs of his teammates. The issue with Thome is that his average season was 35-40 homeruns and 100 RBI's at a time when the Brad Fullmer's of the world were hitting 30 homeruns with 90 RBI's. Thome's career WAR is just at 71.1.

A good comparison with Thome, to my mind, is Jeff Bagwell. Bagwell put up numbers that, if he'd put them up in any other era, would have seen him as a first ballot HOFer. As is he only got 41.7% of the vote. Bagwell's actually a tough comp for Thome. Bagwell has slightly better numbers, won more awards and was a good defensive 1B. Bagwell's career WAR is 79.9. HOF voters may be impressed with the raw HR numbers but that's about all Thome has going for him compared to some of the other slugging 1B of his day.

We're having the Thome discussion elsewhere and one thing to keep in mind is that he's generally seen as a player who is/was extremely likeable (unlike, say, Canseco/Bonds, etc ) and a player who has probably done it his whole career the clean way (who knows really, but guys like Bagwell have been accused before).

Voters don't look at just home runs and vote a guy in (see Mark Mcgwire) and we've seen recently that players accused of steroids aren't getting in (just yet) so I think Thome, who like you say, has numbers across the board and is perceived as one of the good guys has a real good shot.

(http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1001/mlb.mark.mcgwire.through.the.years/images/mark-mcgwire-jim-thome-1999.jpg)
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 16, 2011, 11:21:34 AM
We're having the Thome discussion elsewhere and one thing to keep in mind is that he's generally seen as a player who is/was extremely likeable (unlike, say, Canseco/Bonds, etc ) and a player who has probably done it his whole career the clean way (who knows really, but guys like Bagwell have been accused before).

I really struggle with the idea that either of those things should matter. The HOF isn't a popularity contest or a clean living award. I don't mind the idea that character factors into things but without having any first hand knowledge of the kind of guy Thome is I'm not inclined to pay it much mind. I know there's a media perception of Thome as a great guy but there was for Kirby Puckett too.

As for the "accusations", I mean, first of all, who accused Bagwell of anything? He never tested positive, never was named in any of the various reports. Some people may have suspected Bagwell of something but if everyone who's been suspected of PED use by someone is kept out of the hall, nobody will go in. I've talked to people recently who questioned Alomar in that regard.

Voters don't look at just home runs and vote a guy in (see Mark Mcgwire) and we've seen recently that players accused of steroids aren't getting in (just yet) so I think Thome, who like you say, has numbers across the board and is perceived as one of the good guys has a real good shot.

Well, let's be fair. McGwire isn't just HR numbers either. McGwire's career OPS and OPS+ are better than Thome and he was a pretty solid defensive firstbaseman. If it's a straight numbers case, McGwire trumps Thome.

I don't know what should be done about admitted steroid guys like McGwire but, I think, absent of any sort of evidence BBWAA guys should treat guys without that on their records the same.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 16, 2011, 01:52:16 PM

Just a thought but I was listening to people talk about Kyle Drabek and how he's struggled at AAA but how, because Vegas is such a good hitter's park, it was hard to get a good sense of what that meant. So anyone else think that a AAA team that wildly distorts numbers may be a bad idea and the Jays should maybe be looking for a slightly more neutral affiliate?
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 16, 2011, 06:10:20 PM

Just a thought but I was listening to people talk about Kyle Drabek and how he's struggled at AAA but how, because Vegas is such a good hitter's park, it was hard to get a good sense of what that meant. So anyone else think that a AAA team that wildly distorts numbers may be a bad idea and the Jays should maybe be looking for a slightly more neutral affiliate?

I'm sure, if the possibility arises, that they'll take a serious look at it. I imagine they'd also prefer to move back to a AAA affiliate that's, at the very least, on the East coast.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on August 17, 2011, 02:23:25 AM
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Jays+prospect+Loewen+finding+life+outfielder/5264252/story.html

Update on Adam Loewen, the pitcher-turned-outfielder, much like Rick Ankiel.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 17, 2011, 11:56:37 AM
I'm finding Dustin McGowan's road to recovery quite remarkable. 
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Newbury on August 17, 2011, 03:46:32 PM
I'm finding Dustin McGowan's road to recovery quite remarkable.

It would be remarkable to see him make an appearance with the Jays in Toronto before the end of the season. I think the ovation would be quite a scene.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on August 17, 2011, 03:49:06 PM
I'm finding Dustin McGowan's road to recovery quite remarkable.

It would be remarkable to see him make an appearance with the Jays in Toronto before the end of the season. I think the ovation would be quite a scene.

It's going to happen.
Title: Re: Temporary Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on August 18, 2011, 02:26:11 PM
I'm finding Dustin McGowan's road to recovery quite remarkable.

It would be remarkable to see him make an appearance with the Jays in Toronto before the end of the season. I think the ovation would be quite a scene.

It's going to happen.

That would be simply awesome.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Arn on August 18, 2011, 02:37:48 PM
I've not been able to follow the Jays as much this year due to a change of job and lack of mlb.tv, but would it be fair to say a lack of a bullpen has been the major issue? Have we anyone coming through to rectify that or will it have to be done by free agents?

At east Lowrie seems to be having a decent impact. Will be interesting to see how he goes when he has to start facing pitchers for the 2nd and 3rd time tho
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 02:42:16 PM
I've not been able to follow the Jays as much this year due to a change of job and lack of mlb.tv, but would it be fair to say a lack of a bullpen has been the major issue? Have we anyone coming through to rectify that or will it have to be done by free agents?

At east Lowrie seems to be having a decent impact. Will be interesting to see how he goes when he has to start facing pitchers for the 2nd and 3rd time tho

It could be than Janssen is the only returning member of the pen. We may see Litsch or Perez there too or someone else already in the system but to answer your question, it's going to be filled next year in part via the system and in part by via free agency. I'm confident it will be sorted.

McGowan is also a possibility should he fail in his bid to be a starter.

Edit: and yeah, the pen has stunk.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 02:44:33 PM
I've not been able to follow the Jays as much this year due to a change of job and lack of mlb.tv, but would it be fair to say a lack of a bullpen has been the major issue?

I think the issue is probably better summed up by saying that the problem is the pitching staff as a whole. Outside of Romero none of the starters are having much of a year either.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 02:47:18 PM
I think the issue is probably better summed up by saying that the problem is the pitching staff as a whole. Outside of Romero none of the starters are having much of a year either.

Morrow's flashes of brilliance have been enough to keep me excited about him as a top of the rotation starter going forward too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 02:51:33 PM
I think the issue is probably better summed up by saying that the problem is the pitching staff as a whole. Outside of Romero none of the starters are having much of a year either.

Morrow's flashes of brilliance have been enough to keep me excited about him as a top of the rotation starter going forward too.

Stunned though I am that you're optimistic about a Blue Jay, it doesn't change that he's not having a very good year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on August 18, 2011, 02:53:07 PM
I think the issue is probably better summed up by saying that the problem is the pitching staff as a whole. Outside of Romero none of the starters are having much of a year either.

Morrow's flashes of brilliance have been enough to keep me excited about him as a top of the rotation starter going forward too.

His road stats anyway.  He's been awful at home. The exact opposite of last year where he was unhittable at home and a gas tank on the road.

As for the bullpen.  It's going to be an entire reload, and I'm having a hard time seeing how they are going to put together a top 10 bullpen (what the Jays will need if they are going to compete in the AL East given their rotation) when they are going to have to rely on every free agent panning out.  After Janssen and maybe Litsch, they need to grab a closer who doesn't suck, a strong set-up man, a reliable lefty specialist, and depending on the role Litsch takes, a long-arm. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 02:57:59 PM
I think the issue is probably better summed up by saying that the problem is the pitching staff as a whole. Outside of Romero none of the starters are having much of a year either.

Morrow's flashes of brilliance have been enough to keep me excited about him as a top of the rotation starter going forward too.

Stunned though I am that you're optimistic about a Blue Jay, it doesn't change that he's not having a very good year.

1. Why would you be stunned?
2. Can you point to the part where I was arguing with you? It's pretty clear I wasn't.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 03:03:47 PM
1. Why would you be stunned?

That was sarcasm. You see, I wasn't stunned.

2. Can you point to the part where I was arguing with you? It's pretty clear I wasn't.

Then I have no idea whatsoever why you'd quote what I said about the current state of the pitching staff. I assumed, given that you did, that your comment was somehow in response to mine. It was confusing.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 03:09:52 PM

Actually, the more I look at the numbers the more I'm inclined to think the rotation is a bigger problem than the bullpen is. Putting Morrow aside for a second the Jays may have to go into the off-season looking for two or three starters.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 03:13:12 PM
1. Why would you be stunned?

That was sarcasm. You see, I wasn't stunned.

2. Can you point to the part where I was arguing with you? It's pretty clear I wasn't.

Then I have no idea whatsoever why you'd quote what I said about the current state of the pitching staff. I assumed, given that you did, that your comment was somehow in response to mine. It was confusing.

See, I don't understand why you're being sarcastic. You think I'm overly giddy about our pitching staff? Yeah, I'm bullish on almost all of our position players but I don't think I've ever pointed to the pitching staff staff as a unit that doesn't need some work.

I replied to your reply to Arn because you've only singled out Romero as having a good year... and while I might be inclined to to agree with you, I think it would be a disservice to not mention to Arn that at times, Morrow has shown he can be among the most dominating pitchers in the AL. - I'm only adding to the conversation here... Not everything is a fight, Nik. - though often I know you try to turn things in to one. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 03:18:00 PM
See, I don't understand why you're being sarcastic.

There's a parable about a scorpion and a frog you may find helpful.

I replied to your reply to Arn because you've only singled out Romero as having a good year... and while I might be inclined to to agree with you, I think it would be a disservice to mention to Arn that at times, Morrow has shown he can be among the most dominating pitchers in the AL.

While I'm sure that what you meant is that it would be a disservice not to mention that Morrow's been good at times, if you're trying to explain what's gone wrong this year, which I was, saying that only Romero's had a good year is just the facts of the matter.

- I'm only adding to the conversation here... Not everything is a fight, Nik. - though often I know you try to turn things in to one.

Yes, clearly I'm the one being overly combative here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 03:29:06 PM

I'm sure that what you meant is that it would be a disservice not to mention that Morrow's been good at times, if you're trying to explain what's gone wrong this year, which I was, saying that only Romero's had a good year is just the facts of the matter.


Yes, I forgot the "not" which is now corrected, thank you. No, I'm not trying to mention Morrow's been just good at times... I think I said "dominant" which again, I think Arn probably would be interested in knowing... Sorry Arn if I've assumed wrong here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 03:40:46 PM
Yes, I forgot the "not" which is now corrected, thank you. No, I'm not trying to mention Morrow's been just good at times... I think I said "dominant" which again, I think Arn probably would be interested in knowing... Sorry Arn if I've assumed wrong here.

Warring adjectives aside, the point remains that if you're going to sum up his season you'd have to go with mediocre-bad. Does he have a bigger ratio of really good games measured out by equally bad games than a typical pitcher at about his overall level? I honestly don't know. He may, as I suspect that's pretty common for pitchers who strike out a lot of hitters, but I don't know how significant that is. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 18, 2011, 03:41:58 PM
Actually, the more I look at the numbers the more I'm inclined to think the rotation is a bigger problem than the bullpen is. Putting Morrow aside for a second the Jays may have to go into the off-season looking for two or three starters.

I'd say Cecil's looked good enough since coming back from Vegas to earn a spot in the rotation to start next season. He''s giving up a few too many homers to be a front of the rotation guy just yet, but he's done a very good job of keeping the other team from getting on base. Villenueva is a bit of a wildcard. He looked good for a while, but, may not have the stamina to be a full time starter. Past that, hopefully at least one of Drabek, Alvarez, Jenkins, etc can step up and become a legit MLB starter next year. They'll need to add some arms this winter, for sure, but I'm not sure they'll be looking for more than 1 that can start full time.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 03:45:33 PM
I'd say Cecil's looked good enough since coming back from Vegas to earn a spot in the rotation to start next season. He''s giving up a few too many homers to be a front of the rotation guy just yet, but he's done a very good job of keeping the other team from getting on base. Villenueva is a bit of a wildcard. He looked good for a while, but, may not have the stamina to be a full time starter. Past that, hopefully at least one of Drabek, Alvarez, Jenkins, etc can step up and become a legit MLB starter next year. They'll need to add some arms this winter, for sure, but I'm not sure they'll be looking for more than 1 that can start full time.

You're right to an extent. I probably should have included that any sort of need to add 2-3 pitchers next year will depend on how motivated they are to compete next year. If they're targeting 2013 or 2014 as more realistic targets than, yeah, they may be more inclined to let Cecil and their prospects throw next year which may make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 18, 2011, 04:14:08 PM
You're right to an extent. I probably should have included that any sort of need to add 2-3 pitchers next year will depend on how motivated they are to compete next year. If they're targeting 2013 or 2014 as more realistic targets than, yeah, they may be more inclined to let Cecil and their prospects throw next year which may make a lot of sense.

My guess is that, while I'm sure they'd like to compete next season, the blueprint was designed more with 2013 or 2014 in mind. That's the impression I've had for the last year or so.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 04:16:42 PM
My guess is that, while I'm sure they'd like to compete next season, the blueprint was designed more with 2013 or 2014 in mind. That's the impression I've had for the last year or so.

I've felt the same way too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 04:19:44 PM
My guess is that, while I'm sure they'd like to compete next season, the blueprint was designed more with 2013 or 2014 in mind. That's the impression I've had for the last year or so.

Could be. But things can change and a strong finish to the season may have them at 85-86 wins and convince them to look at next year slightly differently.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 18, 2011, 04:25:48 PM
Could be. But things can change and a strong finish to the season may have them at 85-86 wins and convince them to look at next year slightly differently.

Maybe, though, the impression that I have of AA is that he's not likely to break from the plan because of a strong finish. Should the opportunity arise to improve the starting staff at a reasonable price, I'm sure he'd jump on it, but, outside of that, I imagine he'll remain patient and stick with his blueprint.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 18, 2011, 04:29:43 PM
Maybe, though, the impression that I have of AA is that he's not likely to break from the plan because of a strong finish. Should the opportunity arise to improve the starting staff at a reasonable price, I'm sure he'd jump on it, but, outside of that, I imagine he'll remain patient and stick with his blueprint.

That's all I'm saying. I don't think he'll sign any bad deals, or any knowingly bad deals, out of desperation but if there's a few starters that would provide stability and an ability to compete next year at reasonable prices he very well may go for it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 18, 2011, 11:08:52 PM
Lawrie and Rasmus coming up big again. I wonder how many shirts Anthopoulos has destroyed Hulk Hogan style since the two have been here.  8)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 19, 2011, 12:09:46 AM
That's all I'm saying. I don't think he'll sign any bad deals, or any knowingly bad deals, out of desperation but if there's a few starters that would provide stability and an ability to compete next year at reasonable prices he very well may go for it.

I guess so. I just don't see him actively or aggressively pursuing much in terms of starting pitching this winter - especially considering the free agent class is largely underwhelming.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 19, 2011, 02:34:55 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/08/19/draft-cap/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a2 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/08/19/draft-cap/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a2)

Interesting article on the baseball draft. On the one hand it talks about MLB's concerns with the big bonuses being paid out and how it may be addressed in the coming labour negotiations. On the other it talks about how the teams who are investing heavily in the draft are the smaller market clubs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 20, 2011, 11:16:44 PM
Is Oakland's pitching really as good as one run and nine hits over the last 20 innings? Three hit shutout yesterday, one run on four hits through 8 innings today.

Jays pitching hasn't been too bad, either, but the A's have just been better.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 20, 2011, 11:30:53 PM
Is Oakland's pitching really as good as one run and nine hits over the last 20 innings?

Harden was legitimately unhittable last night - that change-up of his was just falling off the table just as it entered the hitting zone. It was quite the performance. Gonzalez hasn't been quite as dominant tonight, but, he definitely hasn't made a lot of mistakes or given the Jays many good pitches to hit. He's done a good job of sticking to the edges of the strike zone and getting the Jays to swing at bad pitches. Not having Bautista in the line-up tonight hasn't helped either.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 20, 2011, 11:32:54 PM
Is Oakland's pitching really as good as one run and nine hits over the last 20 innings?

Harden was legitimately unhittable last night - that change-up of his was just falling off the table just as it entered the hitting zone. It was quite the performance. Gonzalez hasn't been quite as dominant tonight, but, he definitely hasn't made a lot of mistakes or given the Jays many good pitches to hit. He's done a good job of sticking to the edges of the strike zone and getting the Jays to swing at bad pitches. Not having Bautista in the line-up tonight hasn't helped either.

These are the times I miss having cable. Watching the come from behind win over the Angels was pretty cool on the weekend, though. :)

Edit: Looks like the bullpen threw away any chance of the Jays coming back in this one - Litsch gave up a double and a single with two outs, and Lewis came in and gave up a homer - 5-1 now. Looks like yet another loss to Oakland.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 21, 2011, 12:40:45 AM

I understand scratching Bautista for McCoy if Bautista wasn't feeling well but does it make any sense at all to bat McCoy leadoff and slide Escobar to third?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on August 21, 2011, 02:50:19 PM

I understand scratching Bautista for McCoy if Bautista wasn't feeling well but does it make any sense at all to bat McCoy leadoff and slide Escobar to third?

He's a rookie, but I'm not a big fan of Farrell's work.  He makes a lot of mistakes and I'm not really seeing much in terms of player development this year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 21, 2011, 06:44:10 PM

I understand scratching Bautista for McCoy if Bautista wasn't feeling well but does it make any sense at all to bat McCoy leadoff and slide Escobar to third?

He's a rookie, but I'm not a big fan of Farrell's work.  He makes a lot of mistakes and I'm not really seeing much in terms of player development this year.

Not sure I understand Hill leading off today but hey, when your pitching staff only gives up one hit, I suppose it doesn't matter who's leading off much.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 21, 2011, 07:13:57 PM
Wow, outstanding pitching performance by Perez and Janssen today.

Good thing - Jays with another poor offensive showing, 1 run on 4 hits. Most games that equals a loss. Two runs and 13 hits in their last 30 innings of work, I think.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 22, 2011, 04:12:55 PM
Jason Kubel, Jim Thome and Carlos Pena were all placed on trade waivers today. With Lind potentially being out for a while with a wrist injury (no broken bones, but, still couple be a while before he's feeling well enough to get in the line-up), I can see the Jays trying to work something out to get one of these guys on the cheap - most likely Pena, who the Cubs would probably part with for next to nothing just to get out of the $6M they still owe him for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 23, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
Reports have Hill and Macdonald going to Arizona for Kelly Johnson.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on August 23, 2011, 03:15:15 PM
A change of scenery could be just what Aaron Hill needs.  Very sad to see John McDonald go as well.  Absolutely seems like a good team guy and always treat to watch on the field.  Was hoping he'd make is way in to the coaching staff one day.  I guess it could still happen down the road.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: ThatLeafsFan on August 23, 2011, 03:15:58 PM
Reports have Hill and Macdonald going to Arizona for Kelly Johnson.

Don't pay too much attention to baseball to know if thats a good deal, all I know is Hill used to be good and hasn't the last year or two and MacDonald has been good defensively, not sure if he is this year. How is Kelly Johnson? Good rumoured trade for the Jays?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on August 23, 2011, 03:20:57 PM
Perhaps because Hill's option wasn't picked up, he'll become a free agent, no? Maybe the Jays can't/won't sign him.

At a glance they look like pretty similar players.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 23, 2011, 03:21:41 PM
Perhaps because Hill's option wasn't picked up, he'll become a free agent, no? Maybe the Jays can't/won't sign him.

At a glance they look like pretty similar players.

They still could have picked up options on Hill at the end of the year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 03:37:24 PM
I'd like to keep John McDonald around for Lawrie's benefit... and some of the other young infilelders in the system too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Newbury on August 23, 2011, 03:43:09 PM
Not really sure I like or get this deal.

If it was Hill for Johnson it might get a meh from me, but the fact that Johnny Mac had to be thrown in kind of sucks.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 03:47:01 PM
Not really sure I like or get this deal.

If it was Hill for Johnson it might get a meh from me, but the fact that Johnny Mac had to be thrown in kind of sucks.

So it's official then?... and I agree... unless of course we re-sign Johnson whi is a FA.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 23, 2011, 03:48:07 PM
All 3 guys are at the press conference, and they are all talking very openly about the possibility of returning to the Jays next year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 04:16:46 PM
I think the earthquake shook up AA's head. I'm lost on this one for now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 23, 2011, 04:17:31 PM
Johnson's got better career offensive numbers in large part due to a 24 point edge in career OBP. Hill has marginally better defensive numbers. Both guys, though, are having a crummy year.

It looks pretty simple. Hill and Johnson are relatively comparable this year but Hill is making more. The D-Backs, on their way to the playoffs, add a useful bench piece in McDonald while the Jays save a little money.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 04:20:59 PM
Johnson's got better career offensive numbers in large part due to a 24 point edge in career OBP. Hill has marginally better defensive numbers. Both guys, though, are having a crummy year.

It looks pretty simple. Hill and Johnson are relatively comparable this year but Hill is making more. The D-Backs, on their way to the playoffs, add a useful bench piece in McDonald while the Jays save a little money.

... but shouldn't have we got an asset that extends beyond this year? I don't see a point unless AA has something confirmed at 2B for next year... and as much as I like Hech as a prospectm it ain't him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 23, 2011, 04:21:31 PM
I don't think this deal is very impactful, 3 pending free agents.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 04:22:23 PM
I don't think this deal is very impactful, 3 pending free agents.

Didn't we have Hill for 2 more years? I was operationg on that assumption. If not, well, then that changes my opinion.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 23, 2011, 04:24:09 PM
I don't think this deal is very impactful, 3 pending free agents.

Didn't we have Hill for 2 more years? I was operationg on that assumption. If not, well, then that changes my opinion.

There were pricey option years - $8M, $8M, $10M.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 04:26:42 PM
I don't think this deal is very impactful, 3 pending free agents.

Didn't we have Hill for 2 more years? I was operationg on that assumption. If not, well, then that changes my opinion.

There were pricey option years - $8M, $8M, $10M.

I know but my point remains... as much as we all soured on Hill, is it smart to deal away your only option at that position for next year?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 23, 2011, 04:27:18 PM
Ignore that, working with bad salary data. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 23, 2011, 04:28:47 PM
Didn't we have Hill for 2 more years? I was operationg on that assumption. If not, well, then that changes my opinion.

THe Jays had options on Hill for 2 more seasons, but, with the way he's been declining both at the plate and in the field, there was no way they would have been picked up. On top of that, Johnson is a better bet to decline arbitration than Hill right now - he's having a poor season after a breakout season, whereas Hill is coming to the end of his 2nd straight subpar season, to the point where Hill is producing less than a replacement level player would - and Johnson has better odds of getting signed to a MLB deal in the winter, meaning he give the Jays better odds at compensation picks (both ranked as Type B guys - Johnson was in fact just beneath being a Type A) in their respective leagues pre-trade, not sure where they end up afterwards.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 23, 2011, 04:30:53 PM
THe Jays had options on Hill for 2 more seasons, but, with the way he's been declining both at the plate and in the field, there was no way they would have been picked up. On top of that, Johnson is a better bet to decline arbitration than Hill right now - he's having a poor season after a breakout season, whereas Hill is coming to the end of his 2nd straight subpar season, to the point where Hill is producing less than a replacement level player would

And, I mean, both guys will be on the market in the winter assuming Arizona also declines Hill's options. So, realistically, this trade has almost no bearing on whether or not Aaron Hill will play for the Blue Jays next year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 04:32:14 PM
So why throw MacDonald in then?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 23, 2011, 04:32:34 PM
So why throw MacDonald in then?

Because Johnson has more value than Hill.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 04:36:08 PM
So why throw MacDonald in then?

Because Johnson has more value than Hill.

To who though?... if neither guy was going to play for either team next year, the point of all of this is???.... Unless Hill is projected to be a type "B" and Johnson an "A."
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 23, 2011, 04:39:09 PM
So why throw MacDonald in then?

It saves the Jays a couple hundred thousand bucks and there's an increased likelihood of getting a pick out of Johnson than there is Hill.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 23, 2011, 04:40:34 PM
To who though?... if neither guy was going to play for either team next year, the point of all of this is???.... Unless Hill is projected to be a type "B" and Johnson an "A."

THey're both Bs, but, Hill was a borderline B in the AL and quite easily would have been unranked by the end of the season with the way he's been hitting, whereas Johnson was a borderline A in the NL and likely remains a solid B in the AL for the rest of the year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 23, 2011, 08:15:35 PM
Morrow with another rough start - down 3-0 after 4 having already thrown 79 pitches. Jays bats looking again like they are having a tough time - 1 hit through 4. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 09:13:47 PM
The deal was just explained to me this way... Either Johnson signs long term or we get him for one year through arbitration. If he rejects arbitration, the Jays land a sandwich pick. The feeling is that McDonald is close to a lock to re-sign with us in the off-season so, given all that, I suppose it's a decent deal. If not for the nervous Nelly in me telling me that it isn't a good idea to to enter the off-season with zero certainty for at least one MLB ready second baseman, my feeling would be that it's actually a pretty good trade.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 23, 2011, 09:51:29 PM
If not for the nervous Nelly in me telling me that it isn't a good idea to to enter the off-season with zero certainty for at least one MLB ready second baseman, my feeling would be that it's actually a pretty good trade.

Unless you're actually suggesting the Jays should have picked up Hill's option for 8 million just so they'd have a second baseman on the roster that would have been the case either way.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: sucka on August 23, 2011, 10:46:16 PM
The deal was just explained to me this way... Either Johnson signs long term or we get him for one year through arbitration. If he rejects arbitration, the Jays land a sandwich pick. The feeling is that McDonald is close to a lock to re-sign with us in the off-season so, given all that, I suppose it's a decent deal. If not for the nervous Nelly in me telling me that it isn't a good idea to to enter the off-season with zero certainty for at least one MLB ready second baseman, my feeling would be that it's actually a pretty good trade.

Even better...maybe their was an 'understanding' for Hill to sign back with the jays and Johnson to sign back with the Dbacks...then both teams get the extra picks
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 11:36:00 PM
The deal was just explained to me this way... Either Johnson signs long term or we get him for one year through arbitration. If he rejects arbitration, the Jays land a sandwich pick. The feeling is that McDonald is close to a lock to re-sign with us in the off-season so, given all that, I suppose it's a decent deal. If not for the nervous Nelly in me telling me that it isn't a good idea to to enter the off-season with zero certainty for at least one MLB ready second baseman, my feeling would be that it's actually a pretty good trade.

Even better...maybe their was an 'understanding' for Hill to sign back with the jays and Johnson to sign back with the Dbacks...then both teams get the extra picks

I think we've seen the last of Hill... hopefully.

Interesting... I didn't realize how much of a better hitter Johnson was than Hill;

Hill: 396 AB, 124 TB. Johnson: 430 AB, 177 TB... That's a pretty signifigant gap in total bases. To put that in perspective, Escobar (who has had a fairly decent year at the plate) has 190 TB in 448 AB. - Johnson isn't that far off. Depending on what he does for the rest of the year, Johnson might in fact be a nice addition going forward should both parties be willing.   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 11:41:51 PM
Speaking of total bases, which is the better measure of offensive prowess in baseball? OPS ot TB? Everyone is gaga over OPS (as perhaps they should be) but nobody ever talks TBs. Don't TB's speak as loudly to a player's ability at the plate as OPS does?   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 23, 2011, 11:43:49 PM
Speaking of total bases, which is the better measure of offensive prowess in baseball? OPS ot TB? Everyone is gaga over OPS (as perhaps they should be) but nobody ever talks TBs. Don't TB's speak as loudly to a player's ability at the plate as OPS does?

TB is taken into account as part of OPS. Slugging % is TB divided by AB, and, OPS is Slg% + OBP, so . . .
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 23, 2011, 11:47:52 PM
Speaking of total bases, which is the better measure of offensive prowess in baseball? OPS ot TB? Everyone is gaga over OPS (as perhaps they should be) but nobody ever talks TBs. Don't TB's speak as loudly to a player's ability at the plate as OPS does?

TB is taken into account as part of OPS. Slugging % is TB divided by AB, and, OPS is Slg% + OBP, so . . .

Ah, right. Sorry. OPS pretty much covers it all, doesn't it?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 23, 2011, 11:58:47 PM
Ah, right. Sorry. OPS pretty much covers it all, doesn't it?

Pretty much. The only things it doesn't really take into account are runs, RBIs and SB, though, you can get a feel for how good a player will be at the first two from it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 24, 2011, 12:45:19 AM
Ah, right. Sorry. OPS pretty much covers it all, doesn't it?

It does, but it has it's flaws. It doesn't adjust for park factors or league conditions and a lot of people think that it over-emphasizes SLG% when OBP is a more important component.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 24, 2011, 04:12:00 AM
The last time the Jays had a Kelly, his last name was Gruber, and they won their first World Series.

Maybe if they keep this Kelly (Johnson), might bring them some luck!   ;D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 24, 2011, 04:23:04 AM
Speaking of total bases, which is the better measure of offensive prowess in baseball? OPS ot TB? Everyone is gaga over OPS (as perhaps they should be) but nobody ever talks TBs. Don't TB's speak as loudly to a player's ability at the plate as OPS does?

TB is taken into account as part of OPS. Slugging % is TB divided by AB, and, OPS is Slg% + OBP, so . . .


Some critics feel that the OPS is not a great formula for measuring performance. They feel that the on base percentage is nearer to the mark than the combination of on base percentage and slugging percentage.

Criticism stems from the fact that slugging percentage and on base percentage are given equal status in OPS. However, on base percentage tends to more accurately indicate the likelihood that a player will actually make it to the home plate and score a run. In fact on base percentage tends to be about a 10-25% lower than OPS.

Babe Ruth has the highest career OPS at 1.1636. He is followed by Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig.
Barry Bonds stands fourth in the rankings for career OPS with a 1.0533 measurement.

http://www.wisegeek.com/in-baseball-what-is-ops.htm (http://www.wisegeek.com/in-baseball-what-is-ops.htm)

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 09:05:07 AM
Ah, right. Sorry. OPS pretty much covers it all, doesn't it?

Pretty much. The only things it doesn't really take into account are runs, RBIs and SB, though, you can get a feel for how good a player will be at the first two from it.

I have a soloution for the SBs... Just add them to the TBs in one's SLG% and presto...  OPSASB (adjusted for SBs.)  :D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 09:09:13 AM
Ah, right. Sorry. OPS pretty much covers it all, doesn't it?

It does, but it has it's flaws. It doesn't adjust for park factors or league conditions and a lot of people think that it over-emphasizes SLG% when OBP is a more important component.

Yeah, that's an interesting dilema... Not much you can do about park factors and such. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 09:12:57 AM
Babe Ruth has the highest career OPS at 1.1636. He is followed by Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig.

Barry Bonds stands fourth in the rankings for career OPS with a 1.0533 measurement.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCMA_5nK_G0
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 24, 2011, 09:24:56 AM
Yeah, that's an interesting dilema... Not much you can do about park factors and such.

Well, in theory that's what OPS+ is. It's OPS, with league conditions/park factors accounted for, expressed against the major league average.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 24, 2011, 09:25:50 AM
Babe Ruth has the highest career OPS at 1.1636. He is followed by Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig.

Barry Bonds stands fourth in the rankings for career OPS with a 1.0533 measurement.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCMA_5nK_G0

Why do you always have to make things racial.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 09:29:51 AM
Babe Ruth has the highest career OPS at 1.1636. He is followed by Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig.

Barry Bonds stands fourth in the rankings for career OPS with a 1.0533 measurement.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCMA_5nK_G0

Why do you always have to make things racial.

 :D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 09:34:12 AM
Yeah, that's an interesting dilema... Not much you can do about park factors and such.

Well, in theory that's what OPS+ is. It's OPS, with league conditions/park factors accounted for, expressed against the major league average.

Which is so flawed I think... Like I mean, weather is a huge factor and take Colorado for example...  Are we measuring the stats on days when the balls are being dried out in a humidor or not? Who knows what some other parks are up to.   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 24, 2011, 09:51:32 AM
Which is so flawed I think... Like I mean, weather is a huge factor and take Colorado for example...  Are we measuring the stats on days when the balls are being dried out in a humidor or not? Who knows what some other parks are up to.   

Well, park factors are looked at over a period of years so, assuming global warming isn't wreaking things already, weather is going to remain pretty stable from city to city and will factor into offensive performance at the various home parks.

Likewise, assuming they dry out the balls to a consistent extent over a period of a few years then Colorado's park factor will account for the different conditions.

Park Factors (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/parkadjust.shtml)

It's a math heavy read but a worthwhile one. Park factors tend to be pretty sound.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 09:57:21 AM
Which is so flawed I think... Like I mean, weather is a huge factor and take Colorado for example...  Are we measuring the stats on days when the balls are being dried out in a humidor or not? Who knows what some other parks are up to.   

Well, park factors are looked at over a period of years so, assuming global warming isn't wreaking things already, weather is going to remain pretty stable from city to city and will factor into offensive performance at the various home parks.

Likewise, assuming they dry out the balls to a consistent extent over a period of a few years then Colorado's park factor will account for the different conditions.

Park Factors (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/parkadjust.shtml)

It's a math heavy read but a worthwhile one. Park factors tend to be pretty sound.

Good grief. I threw in the towel at step 3.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 24, 2011, 10:49:40 AM
The most recent Elias estimations have been release at MLBTR, and, post-trade, Johnson is a borderline Type A in the AL and Hill is barely a Type B in the NL. They could both easily drop in rank before the season ends, but, with Johnson, the Jays are at least guaranteed an opportunity at a compensation pick - it's pretty much impossible for him to not at least end up as a Type B. Hill, on the other hand . . . if he doesn't have a very good 6 weeks in Arizona/very good playoffs if they qualify, I'm not sure he'll even get a major league contract this winter.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 24, 2011, 11:11:32 AM
The most recent Elias estimations have been release at MLBTR, and, post-trade, Johnson is a borderline Type A in the AL and Hill is barely a Type B in the NL. They could both easily drop in rank before the season ends, but, with Johnson, the Jays are at least guaranteed an opportunity at a compensation pick - it's pretty much impossible for him to not at least end up as a Type B. Hill, on the other hand . . . if he doesn't have a very good 6 weeks in Arizona/very good playoffs if they qualify, I'm not sure he'll even get a major league contract this winter.

So, should we fail to (or choose not to) re-sign Johnson, it boils down to trading 6 weeks + a post season's worth of McDonald for a pick.... and McDonald is a virtual slam dunk to re-sign with us anyway. I guess there's not much to dislike about the trade. Again though, I just wish we knew who was going to be at 2B going forward. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on August 24, 2011, 11:21:53 AM
Escobar-Johnson... where have I seen that DP combo before?  ;)

I really like both guys.  KJ actually has a solid eye and some good power for a second baseman.  He suffers from some inconsistency and for whatever reason is having a pretty lousy year (well, other than power).  I think he can be a .280 guy and take some walks so it's a nice low risk move imo.  AA is buying KJ cheap (which seems to be AA's MO).  I'd certainly have made this move also.

Changing subjects here... For NL ROY... out of Freddie Freeman and Craig Kimbrel.  Who would you pick?  (Nik, remember the Freeman discussion we had before?  Well I was clearly wrong).
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 24, 2011, 11:30:28 AM
Changing subjects here... For NL ROY... out of Freddie Freeman and Craig Kimbrel.  Who would you pick?  (Nik, remember the Freeman discussion we had before?  Well I was clearly wrong).

I'll be honest, I don't remember it at all so I don't know if you're being sarcastic.

Kimbrel's WAR(using BR's formula) is 2.9, Freeman's is 1.6 and I'm inclined to agree with that. Vance Worley is at 2.4 and, all things being equal, I'd be inclined to go starter over reliever so to me it's more of a Worley-Kimbrel discussion right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on August 24, 2011, 12:12:20 PM
Changing subjects here... For NL ROY... out of Freddie Freeman and Craig Kimbrel.  Who would you pick?  (Nik, remember the Freeman discussion we had before?  Well I was clearly wrong).

I'll be honest, I don't remember it at all so I don't know if you're being sarcastic.

Kimbrel's WAR(using BR's formula) is 2.9, Freeman's is 1.6 and I'm inclined to agree with that. Vance Worley is at 2.4 and, all things being equal, I'd be inclined to go starter over reliever so to me it's more of a Worley-Kimbrel discussion right now.

Was a real convo.  Too bad we can't go back to look at it.   I basically said I was a little more tempered with my expectations of Freeman than many Braves fans.  We even quickly discussed a Freeman vs. Dominic Brown as well (in which, you were wrong ;)).

Anyways, Worley's certainly been great but I have a hard time giving ROY to a #4/5 starter on such a good team.  I guess it's not his fault he is behind all those guys but still something to be said for the everyday player (Freeman) compared to the once a week guy (Worley) or the every second day but an inning guy (Kimbrel).

I think it's pretty close between those 3 and will probably come down to September.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 24, 2011, 12:32:04 PM
Anyways, Worley's certainly been great but I have a hard time giving ROY to a #4/5 starter on such a good team.  I guess it's not his fault he is behind all those guys but still something to be said for the everyday player (Freeman) compared to the once a week guy (Worley) or the every second day but an inning guy (Kimbrel).

Personally, I've never thought that the ROY should have anything to do with a player's teammates, good or bad. It should strictly be an evaluation of a guy in his rookie season and how he's played.

The issue with Freeman is that I don't think he's separated himself from the pack in terms of the other rookie position players having good years. His 1.6 WAR has him tied with Danny Espinosa and Wilson Ramos and Darwin Barney is just behind that. I think Collmenter is the #3 guy with Kimbrel and Worley right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on August 24, 2011, 01:23:33 PM
Anyways, Worley's certainly been great but I have a hard time giving ROY to a #4/5 starter on such a good team.  I guess it's not his fault he is behind all those guys but still something to be said for the everyday player (Freeman) compared to the once a week guy (Worley) or the every second day but an inning guy (Kimbrel).

Personally, I've never thought that the ROY should have anything to do with a player's teammates, good or bad. It should strictly be an evaluation of a guy in his rookie season and how he's played.

The issue with Freeman is that I don't think he's separated himself from the pack in terms of the other rookie position players having good years. His 1.6 WAR has him tied with Danny Espinosa and Wilson Ramos and Darwin Barney is just behind that. I think Collmenter is the #3 guy with Kimbrel and Worley right now.

You may be right.  I'd have Freeman as #2, maybe 3, but as of right now I'd have Kimbrel as the ROY.  He's having a historic season really.  He's having the type of year a closer would normally get some Cy Young votes for let alone ROY. 

He hasn't given up an Earned Run since June 11.  A span of 33 appearances (32 2/3rd innings).  He will likely end the year with 50+ saves, and close to 150 strikeouts.  Those are some pretty absurd numbers for anyone let alone a rookie.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 24, 2011, 07:56:27 PM
All 4 of the Diamondback's starting infielders tonight are former Blue Jays.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on August 24, 2011, 08:30:40 PM
All 4 of the Diamondback's starting infielders tonight are former Blue Jays.

And they're in a pennant race, go figure.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 25, 2011, 03:21:31 AM
Jays defeated Kansas City Royals 4-3 Wednesday night, at home.  Josť Bautista with his league-leading 37th homerun, and Brett Lawrie with his fourth homerun this year, that provided the winning run.  Jays much-improved starter Ricky Romero who did not finish, gave way to Jesse Litsch and Casey Jannsen, before Frank Francisco got the save.

Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 25, 2011, 09:59:45 PM
3 slams for the Yanks tonight... Apparently an new record for a single game.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: You're right on August 26, 2011, 06:07:35 AM
3 slams for the Yanks tonight... Apparently an new record for a single game.
That sounds like our last menu order at Denny's
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 26, 2011, 04:57:42 PM
Jays claim Yanic Perreault Dwayne Wise, place Colby Rasmis on 15 day DL.  Too bad for Colby. I'd have liked him to see more AL pitching before season's end.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Kessel Run on August 26, 2011, 11:21:24 PM
I was at the Yanks game on Wednesday night, quite a different experience from the Rogers Centre. I was at field level and quite enjoyed it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on August 28, 2011, 12:45:07 AM
Weren't the Pirates tied for the NL Central like last week?  17 games out in a matter of a month it seems.  I was kind of rooting for them.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 28, 2011, 11:11:15 AM
Weren't the Pirates tied for the NL Central like last week?  17 games out in a matter of a month it seems.  I was kind of rooting for them.

The Brewers are 26-5 in their last 31, so, they've been hard to keep pace with. The fact that the Pirates are 11-25 over their last 36 doesn't help.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on August 28, 2011, 07:37:39 PM
Wow, Morrow with a terrible game. Jays have been playing some pretty rancid ball lately.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 30, 2011, 03:59:11 AM
Finally!  Jays beat the Rays 7-3, Bautista homered (No. 38), Kelly Johnson tripled, and starting pitcher Ricky Romero with the win (13-9).


Jays' skipper John Farrell was replaced by Wakamatsu, for the fourth straight game, and will continue as acting manager until Farrell returns.  (Farrell is currently battling pneumonia).


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/08/29/jays_beat_rays/

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: cabber24 on August 30, 2011, 08:38:36 AM
Schenn in the batting cage with no shoes doesn't seem to bright.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 30, 2011, 07:31:09 PM
I know it's only been 3 weeks or so, but, man does Lawrie look like a very good big leaguer.

Also, I love the in the dugout dance routines after homeruns. I don't know what it is, but they make me laugh.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 30, 2011, 07:59:07 PM

Jays sign a bunch of LA free agents

Jays sign Free Agents (http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110830&content_id=23949424&notebook_id=23949572&vkey=notebook_tor&c_id=tor)

Apparently some worthwhile prospects in the bunch. Still don't get the Beede thing but it certainly helps that they're investing in other areas.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on August 30, 2011, 08:04:57 PM
I know it's only been 3 weeks or so, but, man does Lawrie look like a very good big leaguer.

Also, I love the in the dugout dance routines after homeruns. I don't know what it is, but they make me laugh.

It is very difficult not to get too excited about Lawrie.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 30, 2011, 08:26:55 PM

Jays sign a bunch of LA free agents

Jays sign Free Agents (http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110830&content_id=23949424&notebook_id=23949572&vkey=notebook_tor&c_id=tor)

Apparently some worthwhile prospects in the bunch. Still don't get the Beede thing but it certainly helps that they're investing in other areas.

Getting 3 of the top 6 available Latin free agents makes for a nice summer in that regard.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on August 30, 2011, 09:27:20 PM
I know it's only been 3 weeks or so, but, man does Lawrie look like a very good big leaguer.

Also, I love the in the dugout dance routines after homeruns. I don't know what it is, but they make me laugh.

It is very difficult not to get too excited about Lawrie.

Personally, I think Lawrie has a strong chance at being our best ever 3B. Sure, Rolen was probably the best player at that position here in a short stint in the same way Henderson probably the best ever OF here but I'm talking body of work as a Blue Jay. Anyway, the next Rolen? Who knows but certainly he looks like he's at least capable of being better than Gruber ever was... Actually, and I don't mean to take anything away from my prediction but when I look at it, the list of 3B to accomplish much in a Jays uniform is rather unimpressive.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on August 31, 2011, 03:22:51 AM
I know it's only been 3 weeks or so, but, man does
Lawrie look like a very good big leaguer.

Also, I love the in the dugout dance routines after
homeruns. I don't know what it is, but they make me
laugh.

It is very difficult not to get too excited about Lawrie.

Personally, I think Lawrie has a strong chance at being our best ever 3B. Sure, Rolen was probably the best player at that position here in a short stint in the same
way Henderson probably the best ever OF here but I'm
talking body of work as a Blue Jay. Anyway, the next
Rolen? Who knows but certainly he looks like he's at
least capable of being better than Gruber ever was...
Actually, and I don't mean to take anything away from
my prediction but when I look at it, the list of 3B to
accomplish much in a Jays uniform is rather
unimpressive.


Kelly Gruber was a decent third baseman, while Rolen was probably the best (in his short time here).  Gruber won a World Series with the Jays, providing some pretty good defense and offense.

Perhaps, one day, when Brett Lawrie becomes a dependable third baseman, plus wins a World Series (with the Jays, of course!), then we'll look back and say that Lawrie too makes the list of reliable (and capable) third basemen  in relation to  past Jays in that position.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 31, 2011, 05:02:23 AM

I still ultimately think Lawrie ends up in the outfield. It has been a heck of a stretch though.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on August 31, 2011, 03:53:23 PM
Brian Tallet's return to the Blue Jays has been a brief one - after 0.1 innings and a loss in his only appearance since being reacquired, he has been DFA'd.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Newbury on August 31, 2011, 05:33:20 PM
Brian Tallet's return to the Blue Jays has been a brief one - after 0.1 innings and a loss in his only appearance since being reacquired, he has been DFA'd.

Good.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: CarltonTheBear on August 31, 2011, 06:02:06 PM
Brian Tallet's return to the Blue Jays has been a brief one - after 0.1 innings and a loss in his only appearance since being reacquired, he has been DFA'd.

Good.

Yeah, that inning was embarrassing to watch.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on August 31, 2011, 06:11:39 PM
Yeah that inning sucked. But I'm still sad to see Tallet go. He may have struggled recently but I always had a fondness for him. Oh well, I guess I'll always have the memories.

Wait, the memories suck too.

(edit: that was an easy joke and not a particularly fair one. He had some solid seasons for the Jays before they ruined him by trying to work him into the rotation.)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 01, 2011, 02:11:34 PM
I've been quite pleased with KJ so far... I wasn't expecting to be.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Jacques Strap on September 01, 2011, 02:20:12 PM
Yeah that inning sucked. But I'm still sad to see Tallet go. He may have struggled recently but I always had a fondness for him. Oh well, I guess I'll always have the memories.

Wait, the memories suck too.

(edit: that was an easy joke and not a particularly fair one. He had some solid seasons for the Jays before they ruined him by trying to work him into the rotation.)

I'll always remember him as the guy that wore his pyjamas while playing.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 01, 2011, 02:22:54 PM
Yeah that inning sucked. But I'm still sad to see Tallet go. He may have struggled recently but I always had a fondness for him. Oh well, I guess I'll always have the memories.

Wait, the memories suck too.

(edit: that was an easy joke and not a particularly fair one. He had some solid seasons for the Jays before they ruined him by trying to work him into the rotation.)

I'll always remember him as the guy that wore his pyjamas while playing.

x2... I've said it at least once before but he was just an unmade bed.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 01, 2011, 02:36:26 PM
Hmmm... Escobar turning in another nice performance this afternoon. I'm taking a look at Fernandez's '87 season which might be the best single season Blue Jay performance at that position ever and while Escobar isn't quite there, the numbers are actually not all that far off.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 01, 2011, 03:04:23 PM
I still ultimately think Lawrie ends up in the outfield. It has been a heck of a stretch though.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced. I know it's a small sample size, but, so far, he has a positive dWAR at 3B, as is his UZR, so, his defence at the hot corner appears to be pretty good. No reason to move him into the outfield when the Jays already have more than enough good young players they're going to try to squeeze into the 3 available spots over the next few years.

Also, he's having another great day at the plate today. I don't want to get too excited about him, but, it's looking like he really could be something special.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on September 01, 2011, 03:15:03 PM
I still ultimately think Lawrie ends up in the outfield. It has been a heck of a stretch though.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced. I know it's a small sample size, but, so far, he has a positive dWAR at 3B, as is his UZR, so, his defence at the hot corner appears to be pretty good. No reason to move him into the outfield when the Jays already have more than enough good young players they're going to try to squeeze into the 3 available spots over the next few years.

Also, he's having another great day at the plate today. I don't want to get too excited about him, but, it's looking like he really could be something special.

Wow.  I agree.  It's getting very difficult to not get excited about Lawrie.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 01, 2011, 03:30:26 PM
Wow.  I agree.  It's getting very difficult to not get excited about Lawrie.

If it helps you can always look up Kevin Maas.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on September 01, 2011, 03:54:46 PM
Wow.  I agree.  It's getting very difficult to not get excited about Lawrie.

If it helps you can always look up Kevin Maas.

And that's why I am trying to not get too excited.   :)  Nonetheless, it has been a treat to watch him both defensively and at the plate.  I'm hoping next year is more of the same.   ;D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 02, 2011, 06:08:53 AM
Jays' manager Farrell still in hospital?  Not recovered yet?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 02, 2011, 03:05:50 PM

So apparently AA is in Japan seriously scouting Yu Darvish.

Not much to say for the track record of Japanese starters/the likely 100+ million plus it would cost to sign him but it's an interesting area to be investigating to say the least.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 02, 2011, 03:13:34 PM

So apparently AA is in Japan seriously scouting Yu Darvish.

Not much to say for the track record of Japanese starters/the likely 100+ million plus it would cost to sign him but it's an interesting area to be investigating to say the least.

Never heard of him.... 100+, eh? Does he have the kind of stuff worth NOT having the kind of dough left to sign one of Reyes, Fielder, Pujols or, Sabathia?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 02, 2011, 03:33:50 PM
Never heard of him.... 100+, eh? Does he have the kind of stuff worth NOT having the kind of dough left to sign one of Reyes, Fielder, Pujols or, Sabathia?

Opinion varies as to the quality of his stuff. Some say potential ace, others say #2 is more likely. Great numbers in Japan though.

I don't know that landing Darvish would preclude the possibility of landing one of those guys(although Fielder is the only one I'd consider. Sabathia won't be available, Pujols is too old and I like Escobar at SS). If the Jays are going to be legit spenders than they could probably swing Darvish/Fielder and still have room in the budget for raises when they're due.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 02, 2011, 03:45:27 PM
Never heard of him.... 100+, eh? Does he have the kind of stuff worth NOT having the kind of dough left to sign one of Reyes, Fielder, Pujols or, Sabathia?

Opinion varies as to the quality of his stuff. Some say potential ace, others say #2 is more likely. Great numbers in Japan though.

I don't know that landing Darvish would preclude the possibility of landing one of those guys(although Fielder is the only one I'd consider. Sabathia won't be available, Pujols is too old and I like Escobar at SS). If the Jays are going to be legit spenders than they could probably swing Darvish/Fielder and still have room in the budget for raises when they're due.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you re. the big four... Assuming Darvish is what you say he is, I think Dravish/Fielder would be ideal too but if you can get Reyes, you do it. Moving Escobar to second (as much as I like him at SS) is something I wouldn't hesitate to do.   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 02, 2011, 03:49:39 PM

So apparently AA is in Japan seriously scouting Yu Darvish.

Not much to say for the track record of Japanese starters/the likely 100+ million plus it would cost to sign him but it's an interesting area to be investigating to say the least.

Never heard of him.... 100+, eh? Does he have the kind of stuff worth NOT having the kind of dough left to sign one of Reyes, Fielder, Pujols or, Sabathia?

There is the fee that have to pay his Japanese team (that was around 50 million for Matsusaka) plus his salary.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 02, 2011, 03:54:28 PM

So apparently AA is in Japan seriously scouting Yu Darvish.

Not much to say for the track record of Japanese starters/the likely 100+ million plus it would cost to sign him but it's an interesting area to be investigating to say the least.

Never heard of him.... 100+, eh? Does he have the kind of stuff worth NOT having the kind of dough left to sign one of Reyes, Fielder, Pujols or, Sabathia?

There is the fee that have to pay his Japanese team (that was around 50 million for Matsusaka) plus his salary.

Seems awfully un-Rogers-like. We'll see about this I guess.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 02, 2011, 03:57:46 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree with you re. the big four... Assuming Darvish is what you say he is, I think Dravish/Fielder would be ideal too but if you can get Reyes, you do it. Moving Escobar to second (as much as I like him at SS) is something I wouldn't hesitate to do.

I don't see it at all. Unless Reyes signs for something downright reasonable, like 5 years and 60 million, I'm not sure I see the value. He's got a career OPS+ of 105, he's got injury concerns and is having a year out of step with his career to date.

More to the point, Escobar rates out as a better defensive shortstop, both by Dwar and UZR. They're dead even in WAR at 4.3 by BR, 5.3 to 4.4 edge for Reyes at Fangraphs. That marginal, marginal upgrade is what you want to spend 120+ million on? And downgrade defensively?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 02, 2011, 03:59:52 PM
There is the fee that have to pay his Japanese team (that was around 50 million for Matsusaka) plus his salary.

That's what I'm basing the 100+ million figure on. To be fair, it could be less or more.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 02, 2011, 04:28:39 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree with you re. the big four... Assuming Darvish is what you say he is, I think Dravish/Fielder would be ideal too but if you can get Reyes, you do it. Moving Escobar to second (as much as I like him at SS) is something I wouldn't hesitate to do.

I don't see it at all. Unless Reyes signs for something downright reasonable, like 5 years and 60 million, I'm not sure I see the value. He's got a career OPS+ of 105, he's got injury concerns and is having a year out of step with his career to date.

More to the point, Escobar rates out as a better defensive shortstop, both by Dwar and UZR. They're dead even in WAR at 4.3 by BR, 5.3 to 4.4 edge for Reyes at Fangraphs. That marginal, marginal upgrade is what you want to spend 120+ million on? And downgrade defensively?


While I see your point but mine has more to do with bringing in a great bat in the lineup at SS while filling a hole at 2B.... Though KJ could pan out in which case I clearly forget about Reyes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 02, 2011, 04:35:27 PM
While I see your point but mine has more to do with bringing in a great bat in the lineup at SS while filling a hole at 2B.... Though KJ could pan out in which case I clearly forget about Reyes.

Even then though, why downgrade defensively at SS? Johnson's career OPS+ is 107, so I still don't see how downgrading defensively at SS, upgrading somewhat at 2B(maybe, Escobar hasn't played the position in years) and downgrading offensively is worth the massive amounts of cash Reyes will command and sacrificing the draft picks you'd need to sign him.

I'd rather sign a nobody off the scrap heap to play 2B than to pay massive amounts of money to squeeze a guy with a questionable offensive record into the line-up.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 02, 2011, 05:16:42 PM
I'd just rather have All-Star (or near All-Star) players at each position than settle on a scrub or "scrap."
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 02, 2011, 08:36:55 PM
I'd just rather have All-Star (or near All-Star) players at each position than settle on a scrub or "scrap."

Ok, but A) that's not terribly realistic as even the best teams have areas of weakness and B) the Jays have a budget and blowing a huge chunk of it on a marginal upgrade doesn't make a ton of sense when they already have a terrific SS.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 02, 2011, 10:20:39 PM
While I see your point but mine has more to do with bringing in a great bat in the lineup at SS while filling a hole at 2B.... Though KJ could pan out in which case I clearly forget about Reyes.

In the extremely unlikely event that the Jays sign Reyes, he'd be the one moving over to 2B, not Escobar. SS is the more important defensive position, and the difference between the two defensively is significantly in Escobar's favour.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 05:56:19 AM
While I see your point but mine has more to do with bringing in a great bat in the lineup at SS while filling a hole at 2B.... Though KJ could pan out in which case I clearly forget about Reyes.

In the extremely unlikely event that the Jays sign Reyes, he'd be the one moving over to 2B, not Escobar. SS is the more important defensive position, and the difference between the two defensively is significantly in Escobar's favour.

I'd be fine with that scenario too. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 05:58:29 AM
I'd just rather have All-Star (or near All-Star) players at each position than settle on a scrub or "scrap."

Ok, but A) that's not terribly realistic as even the best teams have areas of weakness and B) the Jays have a budget and blowing a huge chunk of it on a marginal upgrade doesn't make a ton of sense when they already have a terrific SS.

True... Well, the "best possible players" was more to the point anyway. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 03, 2011, 03:36:05 PM
I hate the Jays bullpen. Janssen this time gives up a 4-3 lead in the 7th after Romero was pulled with 2 outs. Romero not happy that he got yanked and 3 batters later it is 6-4.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 03, 2011, 03:48:43 PM
I hate the Jays bullpen. Janssen this time gives up a 4-3 lead in the 7th after Romero was pulled with 2 outs. Romero not happy that he got yanked and 3 batters later it is 6-4.

If Romero didn't hit Granderson and walk A-rod, there would have been no problem.

The bullpen has been brutal this year, but this one is on Ricky as much as it on Janssen. McCoy and Wise didn't really help out either.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 04:24:30 PM
True... Well, the "best possible players" was more to the point anyway.

Which is where having a budget comes in. Spending the kind of money it would cost to land Reyes would be a terrible use of the team's money. I mean, now you're advocating giving 100+ million to a guy with a 105 career ops+ who'd be playing out of position.

Reyes is basically this year's Carl Crawford. He's having a career year to inflate his value but he's still a player who relies a great deal on speed. Giving a player like that a deal that extends into their mid 30's is sketchy in the best of circumstances, when it represents an extremely marginal upgrade it's indefensible.

Compare the difference there to the need the Jays have in the rotation, bullpen, 1B, DH and I think how they should spend their money becomes pretty clear.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 03, 2011, 04:38:39 PM
Compare the difference there to the need the Jays have in the rotation, bullpen, 1B, DH and I think how they should spend their money becomes pretty clear.

I wonder if we are content going into next year with Johnson at 2B.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 04:43:46 PM

Compare the difference there to the need the Jays have in the rotation, bullpen, 1B, DH and I think how they should spend their money becomes pretty clear.

So what if Rogers says "Okay, AA. Go spend some money" but the upgrades (for the most part) aren't there at the positions you outline (which I agree are priorities) and there is money left to burn? Assuming you can get Reyes, do you still settle as you say for a "scrap" at 2B when you can insert Reyes? I think I take Reyes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 04:44:54 PM
I wonder if we are content going into next year with Johnson at 2B.

I think that's the million dollar question right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 03, 2011, 04:46:57 PM
I wonder if we are content going into next year with Johnson at 2B.

Considering the fact that there's pretty much nothing available in free agency outside of getting someone to change positions and the fact that Jays don't appear to be looking to contend in  2012, I think giving Johnson a chance to see if he can return to his 2007/2008/2010 type numbers is a more than acceptable.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 03, 2011, 04:49:02 PM
So what if Rogers says "Okay, AA. Go spend some money" but the upgrades (for the most part) aren't there at the positions you outline (which I agree are priorities) and there is money left to burn? Assuming you can get Reyes, do you still settle as you say for a "scrap" at 2B when you can insert Reyes? I think I take Reyes.

There's a very defensible argument that can be made that an Escobar-Johnson middle infield could just as much, if not more, to the team than one of Escobar-Reyes, and would do so for much less money.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 04:52:28 PM

There's a very defensible argument that can be made that an Escobar-Johnson middle infield could just as much, if not more, to the team than one of Escobar-Reyes, and would do so for much less money.

Sure... and I'd be happy if that was the case. However, Johnson could just as easily say "thanks but no thanks" or, Johnson (as with Hill) has his best days behind him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 04:57:00 PM
So what if Rogers says "Okay, AA. Go spend some money" but the upgrades (for the most part) aren't there at the positions you outline (which I agree are priorities) and there is money left to burn? Assuming you can get Reyes, do you still settle as you say for a "scrap" at 2B when you can insert Reyes? I think I take Reyes.

Well, there are two problems there. The first is that the idea that there aren't any upgrades available for a pitching staff or to DH is basically saying there aren't any competent free agents at all. That's not a terribly realistic scenario.

But after that, I mean, is Rogers saying that Anthopolous has this money to spend and if he doesn't spend it this off-season it goes away for ever? Because if there aren't good options to spend the money right now then you can tuck it away and wait a year or see if you can spend the money via trades.

The Blue Jays are never going to have money "to burn". There will always be a budget. The issue will be whether you'd go with someone cheaper at 2B and putting that extra money into the draft, into Latin America and on and on.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
There's a very defensible argument that can be made that an Escobar-Johnson middle infield could just as much, if not more, to the team than one of Escobar-Reyes, and would do so for much less money.

Especially when draft picks figure into the discussion. If the Jays are desperate to upgrade at second base then they can look to trade for one. It won't cost them 100 million dollars or draft picks.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 05:00:38 PM

Well, there are two problems there. The first is that the idea that there aren't any upgrades available for a pitching staff or to DH is basically saying there aren't any competent free agents at all. That's not a terribly realistic scenario.


Actually, I think its very realistic (if not a distinct probability) that we don't find an upgrade for Lind at 1B or E5 at DH. Pitching, well yeah.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 03, 2011, 05:02:04 PM
There's a very defensible argument that can be made that an Escobar-Johnson middle infield could just as much, if not more, to the team than one of Escobar-Reyes, and would do so for much less money.

Especially when draft picks figure into the discussion. If the Jays are desperate to upgrade at second base then they can look to trade for one. It won't cost them 100 million dollars or draft picks.

Yeah, I guess another trade is possible too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 03, 2011, 05:03:52 PM
Sure... and I'd be happy if that was the case. However, Johnson could just as easily say "thanks but no thanks" or, Johnson (as with Hill) has his best days behind him.

It's also equally possible that this rough season is as much of an aberration as Reyes' production this year - especially considering how well Johnson has performed since suiting up for the Jays. I recognize that it's a very small sample size, but, it's beginning to look like Johnson may have just been in a rut that the coaching staff in Arizona couldn't help him with and that he needed a change of scenery to get his mind right.

What really concerns me RE: Reyes is how far out of sync some of his numbers are with his career averages, especially being that he's doing so in a contract season. Now, it could be that, like Bautista last season, something has just clicked in for him this season, but, it's more likely that this season is an aberration and he'll go back to being the slightly above average bat he's been for most of his career while provide sub-replacement level defence and diminishing speed/injury prone legs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 05:06:01 PM
Actually, I think its very realistic (if not a distinct probability) that we don't find an upgrade for Lind at 1B or E5 at DH. Pitching, well yeah.

Encarnacion's WAR right now is 1.0, Lind's is .8. The idea that there isn't a player in baseball available as a FA who could exceed those numbers and who would take a free agent deal in Toronto does not strike me as realistic in the slightest. We're talking barely above replacement level here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 03, 2011, 05:14:35 PM
Encarnacion's WAR right now is 1.0, Lind's is .8. The idea that there isn't a player in baseball available as a FA who could exceed those numbers and who would take a free agent deal in Toronto does not strike me as realistic in the slightest. We're talking barely above replacement level here.

Especially considering this might be the best off season in a long time for 1B/DH types in free agency. Pujols, Fielder, Pena, Cuddyer, Kubel and Ortiz could all be on the market and all could provide an upgrade (though, in some cases, a marginal one). Though, with Encarnacion's 2nd half, I'd have to seriously consider giving him a full season as DH - especially since the Jays have a very affordable option year available with him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 05:17:49 PM
Especially considering this might be the best off season in a long time for 1B/DH types in free agency. Pujols, Fielder, Pena, Cuddyer, Kubel and Ortiz could all be on the market and all could provide an upgrade (though, in some cases, a marginal one). Though, with Encarnacion's 2nd half, I'd have to seriously consider giving him a full season as DH - especially since the Jays have a very affordable option year available with him.

You could probably talk me into another year of Encarnacion on the team. What I'd have a bit of a problem with though is keeping him around as a plan A or, at the least, without a quick hook and a very good plan B in the wings. He's hit well in the second half. He still needs to be able to hit like an AL East DH all season long and I don't know how realistic that is.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 05:22:09 PM
What really concerns me RE: Reyes is how far out of sync some of his numbers are with his career averages, especially being that he's doing so in a contract season. Now, it could be that, like Bautista last season, something has just clicked in for him this season, but, it's more likely that this season is an aberration and he'll go back to being the slightly above average bat he's been for most of his career while provide sub-replacement level defence and diminishing speed/injury prone legs.

I think there are two separate issues here. The first is whether or not the Jays need Reyes and, really, I'm not sure an argument can be made there. The second is whether or not Jose Reyes is being properly valued.

To me, the answer to both of those questions are an unqualified no. I just don't see how the Jays, who are realistically going to be limited to spending that kind of money on a couple players at best, can give Reyes 20 million or so a year. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 03, 2011, 05:25:28 PM
You could probably talk me into another year of Encarnacion on the team. What I'd have a bit of a problem with though is keeping him around as a plan A or, at the least, without a quick hook and a very good plan B in the wings. He's hit well in the second half. He still needs to be able to hit like an AL East DH all season long and I don't know how realistic that is.

Fair enough. He wouldn't be my #1 choice either, but, I'd certainly feel comfortable enough running with him as DH to start the season if the Jays missed out on the bigger fish. Ideally, I'd have the Jays sign Fielder and trade Lind, who's big 2009 season is looking more and more like an outlier. As long as there's no plan to put Encarnacion out in a defensive position on anything more than spot duty, giving him 2012 to raise his value on the trade market is fine with me.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 03, 2011, 05:28:04 PM
I think there are two separate issues here. The first is whether or not the Jays need Reyes and, really, I'm not sure an argument can be made there. The second is whether or not Jose Reyes is being properly valued.

To me, the answer to both of those questions are an unqualified no. I just don't see how the Jays, who are realistically going to be limited to spending that kind of money on a couple players at best, can give Reyes 20 million or so a year.

I'm with you on both. Reyes is going to get a contract that will be too much for too long for a player who's greatest asset - his speed - is already starting to decline.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 03, 2011, 05:34:28 PM
Ideally, I'd have the Jays sign Fielder and trade Lind, who's big 2009 season is looking more and more like an outlier. As long as there's no plan to put Encarnacion out in a defensive position on anything more than spot duty, giving him 2012 to raise his value on the trade market is fine with me.

That would be how I lean as well. What will be interesting is whether or not he's a better defensive 1B than Fielder. He rates as pretty bad in what I can find in his limited time there this year, and if Fielder wants to play 1B I'd be fine with letting him, but that may be the one argument for letting Encarnacion onto the field.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 04, 2011, 01:36:36 AM
Especially considering this might be the best off season in a long time for 1B/DH types in free agency. Pujols, Fielder, Pena, Cuddyer, Kubel and Ortiz could all be on the market and all could provide an upgrade (though, in some cases, a marginal one). Though, with Encarnacion's 2nd half, I'd have to seriously consider giving him a full season as DH - especially since the Jays have a very affordable option year available with him.


Which of these, may I ask, would suit the Jays best?
Would an Ortiz equal another Bautista, since the Rogers Centre is a home-run hitters haven?
 We would have to take into consideration their age, which is why a 'younger' player with a lot more years (and firepower, in more ways than one), would be best, say Fielder, for one.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 04, 2011, 04:05:06 AM
Which of these, may I ask, would suit the Jays best?
Would an Ortiz equal another Bautista, since the Rogers Centre is a home-run hitters haven?
 We would have to take into consideration their age, which is why a 'younger' player with a lot more years (and firepower, in more ways than one), would be best, say Fielder, for one.

Well, that all depends on what the Jays are trying to accomplish. If they're looking for a long-term guy, then, yeah, Fielder or Pujols (who will only be 32 by the time next season starts) are the way to go. If they're looking for someone to just hold the fort for a couple years until someone in the system emerges for that roles, then guys like Pena, Kubel and Cuddyer are the best bets, while, if they're looking to compete in the next years without making a real long-term commitment to anyone, then you're looking at Ortiz.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Corn Flake on September 05, 2011, 09:16:18 AM
Dustin McGowan activated for today's game.  Amazing.. he made it all the way back. Throwing 95+ mph fastballs too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 05, 2011, 09:21:46 AM
Dustin McGowan activated for today's game.  Amazing.. he made it all the way back. Throwing 95+ mph fastballs too.

That's great news. Not sure he'll be able to go 6+ but still, good for him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Corn Flake on September 05, 2011, 09:49:39 AM
Dustin McGowan activated for today's game.  Amazing.. he made it all the way back. Throwing 95+ mph fastballs too.

That's great news. Not sure he'll be able to go 6+ but still, good for him.

Probably not this year. I think he got up to 4 innings at AA though. He's close. 

I'm guessing a middle/long relief role for the rest of the year and go from there?  The only risk with that is the quick warmup could be a concern with him. Wouldn't want to toss him in a game in a rush and have the shoulder act up.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 05, 2011, 09:55:24 AM
Dustin McGowan activated for today's game.  Amazing.. he made it all the way back. Throwing 95+ mph fastballs too.

That's great news. Not sure he'll be able to go 6+ but still, good for him.

Probably not this year. I think he got up to 4 innings at AA though. He's close. 

I'm guessing a middle/long relief role for the rest of the year and go from there?  The only risk with that is the quick warmup could be a concern with him. Wouldn't want to toss him in a game in a rush and have the shoulder act up.

I thought he got up to 5 but either way, you're right. Time for confidence building now that his stamina is brought up to the point where he could be useful here at the very least. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Corn Flake on September 05, 2011, 07:49:37 PM
Dustin McGowan activated for today's game.  Amazing.. he made it all the way back. Throwing 95+ mph fastballs too.

That's great news. Not sure he'll be able to go 6+ but still, good for him.

Probably not this year. I think he got up to 4 innings at AA though. He's close. 

I'm guessing a middle/long relief role for the rest of the year and go from there?  The only risk with that is the quick warmup could be a concern with him. Wouldn't want to toss him in a game in a rush and have the shoulder act up.

I thought he got up to 5 but either way, you're right. Time for confidence building now that his stamina is brought up to the point where he could be useful here at the very least.

4.2 IP and 76 pitches was the high, according to John Lott of the National Post.

Farrell says he will come out of the pen and will start at the top of an inning to make sure he gets long warmups.  Will look at him back in the rotation next year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 05, 2011, 07:54:34 PM
Lawrie.  :o  - Not really much to say other than that.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Corn Flake on September 05, 2011, 09:07:26 PM
Sept callups are coming:

@ShiDavidi Headed to Jays from Vegas: Adam Loewen (back to majors as OF); P Kyle Drabek; 1B David Cooper; P Chad Beck; P Daniel Farquhar; P Brad Mills

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on September 05, 2011, 09:32:48 PM
Sept callups are coming:

@ShiDavidi Headed to Jays from Vegas: Adam Loewen (back to majors as OF); P Kyle Drabek; 1B David Cooper; P Chad Beck; P Daniel Farquhar; P Brad Mills

Excited to see Loewen and maybe Farquhar.  The rest are kind of meh for me right now.  Drabek got killed in pretty much every start in AAA after showing that he wasn't MLB ready earlier in the year and I don't think much of Cooper and Mills.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 05, 2011, 11:53:57 PM
Sept callups are coming:

@ShiDavidi Headed to Jays from Vegas: Adam Loewen (back to majors as OF); P Kyle Drabek; 1B David Cooper; P Chad Beck; P Daniel Farquhar; P Brad Mills

Excited to see Loewen and maybe Farquhar.  The rest are kind of meh for me right now.  Drabek got killed in pretty much every start in AAA after showing that he wasn't MLB ready earlier in the year and I don't think much of Cooper and Mills.

Cooper has pretty good batting numbers in AAA. I don't know much about Cooper, what about him is bad?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 06, 2011, 07:14:31 AM
Lawrie.  :o  - Not really much to say other than that.


Showed some quick-thinking defensive moves plus a solo home-run against the Bosox last night.  I particularly like Lawrie tagging a trapped runner then
picking off another by throwing to 3rd base.  Perhaps,  if
 the Jays were as pumped up as Lawrie was after that
winning solo shot, they'd have had a better gung-ho
approach with some extra wins to go along with it!     
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on September 06, 2011, 07:17:41 AM
Sept callups are coming:

@ShiDavidi Headed to Jays from Vegas: Adam Loewen (back to majors as OF); P Kyle Drabek; 1B David Cooper; P Chad Beck; P Daniel Farquhar; P Brad Mills

Excited to see Loewen and maybe Farquhar.  The rest are kind of meh for me right now.  Drabek got killed in pretty much every start in AAA after showing that he wasn't MLB ready earlier in the year and I don't think much of Cooper and Mills.

Cooper has pretty good batting numbers in AAA. I don't know much about Cooper, what about him is bad?

He projects as a Lyle Overbay with nowhere near the same defensive ability.   I'm fine with a guy who hits doubles, but it just isn't good enough production for a 1B/DH.  Also, I can't take AAA stats seriously in a league where there are 14 players with an OPS over .800 on the 51's, especially when it includes Mike McCoy, DeWayne Wise, and Jayson Nix.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Corn Flake on September 06, 2011, 11:08:45 AM
Sept callups are coming:

@ShiDavidi Headed to Jays from Vegas: Adam Loewen (back to majors as OF); P Kyle Drabek; 1B David Cooper; P Chad Beck; P Daniel Farquhar; P Brad Mills

Excited to see Loewen and maybe Farquhar.  The rest are kind of meh for me right now.  Drabek got killed in pretty much every start in AAA after showing that he wasn't MLB ready earlier in the year and I don't think much of Cooper and Mills.

Yeah I'm kind of surprised Drabek got the call at all. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on September 06, 2011, 04:00:08 PM
so am i about drabek to .
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 06, 2011, 08:50:30 PM
Dustin McGowan is about to make his return to the majors, great to see him back.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 06, 2011, 09:01:19 PM
Two runs given up in his first inning of work. I imagine things will get better as he gets more pitching time in.

Given that he came in trailing 11-0, there probably wasn't a whole lot of pressure on him. :)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on September 06, 2011, 09:22:12 PM
great second inning pitched by McGowan.  How awesome to see him return to Jays.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 06, 2011, 09:27:45 PM
great second inning pitched by McGowan.  How awesome to see him return to Jays.

I didn't think we'd ever see him again.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on September 06, 2011, 09:44:23 PM
great second inning pitched by McGowan.  How awesome to see him return to Jays.

I didn't think we'd ever see him again.

No, I didn't either. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 07, 2011, 10:25:35 AM
great second inning pitched by McGowan.  How awesome to see him return to Jays.

Statistically-speaking,  in four innings, McGowan threw at 95 mph, giving up 3 runs on 5 hits, walking 3, and striking out 5.  Certainly not bad for someone who hasn't pitched in two years due to surgery (a "surgically-rebuilt right arm"). Way to go!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 07, 2011, 10:40:44 AM
Sept callups are coming:
 
@ShiDavidi Headed to Jays from Vegas: Adam Loewen (back to majors as OF); P Kyle Drabek; 1B David Cooper; P Chad Beck; P
Daniel Farquhar; P Brad Mills

Excited to see Loewen and maybe Farquhar.  The rest are kind of
 meh for me right now.  Drabek got killed in pretty much every start in AAA after showing that he wasn't MLB ready earlier in the year and I don't think much of Cooper and Mills.

Yeah I'm kind of surprised Drabek got the call at all.
 

Adam Loewen's future (long term) with the Jays remains to be seen.  After this year, he would either have to make the team out of spring training in 2012, or, through waivers, before he can be sent down.

As far as the Jays' other "prized prospect", shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria, a Cuban defector awaiting U.S citizenship, he will in all likelihood spend all of 2012 in Triple A.

"I think he needs the full year down there", (Anthropouloa) said.

Source: Sportsnet
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 07, 2011, 07:29:59 PM

This pitching staff st-inks.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 07, 2011, 07:57:04 PM
This pitching staff st-inks.

If only Morrow could figure out how to avoid the disaster inning he's been prone to in each of his starts of late . . . it feels like he's been pretty much unhittable outside of one inning per start. It's really frustrating to watch.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on September 07, 2011, 08:11:21 PM
What a sweet double steal, bringing Jose Bautista and congratulations to JP on the new record.   :D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 07, 2011, 08:24:05 PM
I'm sure at some point, the Jays will get tired of waiting for Morrow just like Seattle did.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 07, 2011, 08:30:57 PM
Just when I thought Morrow was going to have a strong finish to the game, he falls into a big bag of suck and gives up four more runs. I agree with Nik about the state of the pitching staff. Not too many guys to rave about right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 07, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Just when I thought Morrow was going to have a strong finish to the game, he falls into a big bag of suck and gives up four more runs. I agree with Nik about the state of the pitching staff. Not too many guys to rave about right now.

I agree. It stinks. No way in the blue hell do I give up on Morrow just yet though. He's so young and his stuff is crazy good. He could be a stud if he ever figures it out.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 07, 2011, 08:37:06 PM
I agree. It stinks. No way in the blue hell do I give up on Morrow just yet though. He's so young and his stuff is crazy good. He could be a stud if he ever figures it out.

He just needs to learn how to pitch. Right now, he's too much of a thrower to make it work.

Any ways, losing a bunch of games might be a good thing for the Jays - gets them into the bottom half of the league and protects that 1st round pick if they want to go big game hunting in the free agent market this winter.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 07, 2011, 08:38:58 PM
Yeah. Honestly, I'm not really worried about Morrow right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 07, 2011, 08:41:35 PM
He's so young and his stuff is crazy good. He could be a stud if he ever figures it out.

I'm not sure his stuff is all that hot to be honest. He's got velocity, sure, but he's throwing flat and major league hitters aren't going to be impressed with a 97 mph fastball if it doesn't move. He can be good on nights when his slider's working but I don't think he's shown much more than that.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 07, 2011, 08:43:32 PM
Yet another brutal pitching performance. I agree with you Floyd - way too early to give up on him. I just hope he starts showing some signs of progress soon, however small.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Newbury on September 07, 2011, 08:45:36 PM
Just when I thought Morrow was going to have a strong finish to the game, he falls into a big bag of suck and gives up four more runs. I agree with Nik about the state of the pitching staff. Not too many guys to rave about right now.

I agree. It stinks. No way in the blue hell do I give up on Morrow just yet though. He's so young and his stuff is crazy good. He could be a stud if he ever figures it out.

I'm extremely happy with Romero heading into next year. He's our ace. Morrow has the stuff obviously, but he's too inconsistent. Cecil has been pretty meh, and after his last two starts, I'm excited about Alvarez.

I'd love to see AA sign or trade for a veteran starting pitcher, perhaps a #2 or #3, and go with something like Romero and a FA and basically let Morrow/Cecil/Alvarez/Drabek/Perez/FA's battle for three spots with the idea, of course, that Morrow and perhaps Cecil have spots to lose.

It would be real nice to have Marcum still in the fold, but at the same time I'm quite glad AA made that deal.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 07, 2011, 08:54:47 PM
Encarnacion loses the handle on his bat more often than any player I can remember.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 07, 2011, 09:12:01 PM

So...who else is excited for the release of Moneyball?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 07, 2011, 09:21:48 PM

So...who else is excited for the release of Moneyball?

Only because it's a flick the wife and I can easily agree on... For two very different reasons.  :D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on September 07, 2011, 10:28:14 PM

So...who else is excited for the release of Moneyball?

Only because it's a flick the wife and I can easily agree on... For two very different reasons.  :D

Because she likes money and you like balls?  ;D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: The Red Polar Bear on September 08, 2011, 12:00:33 AM

So...who else is excited for the release of Moneyball?

Only because it's a flick the wife and I can easily agree on... For two very different reasons.  :D

Because she likes money and you like balls?  ;D

Bravo, sir.

Alright, shut the lights, we're done here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 08, 2011, 11:57:08 AM

So...who else is excited for the release of Moneyball?

Only because it's a flick the wife and I can easily agree on... For two very different reasons.  :D

Because she likes money and you like balls?  ;D

Dirty money and Schwetty balls.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 08, 2011, 04:32:38 PM
McGowan will start for the rest of the season, 4 starts scheduled.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 08, 2011, 05:01:54 PM
Dirty money and Schwetty balls.

Speaking of . . .

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/07/schweddy-balls-ben-jerrys-newest-vermont-export/
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: draeko17 on September 08, 2011, 05:21:15 PM
McGowan will start for the rest of the season, 4 starts scheduled.

I think there is reason to be optimistic given how he played the other night.  Good for him.  If he can get back to close to what he was before the injuries, the Jays will be better for it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 09, 2011, 05:27:39 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/09/05/moneyball_neyer/


---

CORMACK: What about Toronto and market inefficiencies and the moves Anthopoulos has made when it comes to getting guys that still have some upside, but maybe have fallen out of favour with their clubs.

Iím thinking of Escobar, Rasmus and Morrow. Does that jive with Beaneís thinking, and an example of an inefficiency in the market?

NEYER: Absolutely and I think those are even tougher because sometimes those players are seen as undesirable for reasons that have nothing to do with performance.

Rasmus was not getting along well with his manager, so now weíre throwing personality into the mix, but I certainly think if youíre the Blue Jays you got to take a chance on getting some of those guys.

I think thatís a great example of a potential market inefficiency; a player who might be fine personality-wise who just doesnít get along with his manager. If you can get those guys on the cheap, as the Blue Jays did, I think youíre in good shape.

---

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 09, 2011, 09:56:11 PM
Jays get shut out on a great 3-hit pitching performance by the amazing... wait, Jeremy Guthrie? 17-loss man Jeremy Guthrie?

Jays hitting can be as inconsistent as their pitching (well, maybe not that much :)). They have made a lot of mediocre pitchers look good lately.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on September 09, 2011, 10:53:42 PM
Jays get shut out on a great 3-hit pitching performance by the amazing... wait, Jeremy Guthrie? 17-loss man Jeremy Guthrie?

Jays hitting can be as inconsistent as their pitching (well, maybe not that much :)). They have made a lot of mediocre pitchers look good lately.

Also, none of the callups are playing but, hey, Mike McCoy and Mark Teahen need playing time, right?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 10, 2011, 06:01:22 AM
Someone suggested Brendan Morrow would fare better as a closer.  Some proof.....

From:  http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/09/09/carson_looking_for_relief/

A statistical breakdown of Morrow's career to date certainly adds to the debate:

STARTER > 4.73 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, .243 Opp Avg, 0.97 HR/9 IP

RELIEVER > 3.65 ERA, 1.46 WHIP, .217 Opp Avg, 0.84 HR/ 9 IP

While Morrow hasn't exactly been an automatic in save situations (16 for 22 career), the fact that he's one of the top strikeout artists of his generation adds to the intrigue. Over his two seasons with the Blue Jays, Morrow's rate of 10.41 Ks per nine innings is tops in the majors....

...one has to wonder just how durable the 27-year-old diabetic is and what affect the disease might have on his performance.


One of the reasons the Jays were unable to move on up in the standings...

.... the lack of a credible closer -- leading to an A.L.-high (or worst, depending on how you look at it) 23 blown saves to date -- was the biggest reason the Jays were unable to at least reel in the Tampa Bay Rays and stay within striking distance of the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox.


Some feel-good news on the offensive front...

Jose Bautista's defence of his home run title, the full throttle arrival of Brett Lawrie, the speed element brought to the table by Rajai Davis and ...... the breakout performances by Eric Thames and Henderson Alvarez.

All in all, we can say that the Jays had offensive highlights, pitching inconsistencies and inefficiencies, etc., etc.

There is hope in the likes of McGowan making it a full season next year (so desperately needed to help support an already weak pitching staff); Ricky Romero's improvement after several disappointing starts; Brett Lawrie (at least some prospect talent!, though his defence needs work); all these prospects -- Cooper, Hecchavaria, Loewen, et al. for the future (eventually as semi-permanent call-ups), and, the presence and promise(?) of some $$ to take the chance on a free-agent or two(??) if Anthropoulos feels the need to buy time, so to speak, to give the team a boost in climbing higher in the A.L. East ladder while the Jays' prospects are developing.   











Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: skippy on September 10, 2011, 10:56:57 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/09/05/moneyball_neyer/


---

CORMACK: What about Toronto and market inefficiencies and the moves Anthopoulos has made when it comes to getting guys that still have some upside, but maybe have fallen out of favour with their clubs.

Iím thinking of Escobar, Rasmus and Morrow. Does that jive with Beaneís thinking, and an example of an inefficiency in the market?

NEYER: Absolutely and I think those are even tougher because sometimes those players are seen as undesirable for reasons that have nothing to do with performance.

Rasmus was not getting along well with his manager, so now weíre throwing personality into the mix, but I certainly think if youíre the Blue Jays you got to take a chance on getting some of those guys.

I think thatís a great example of a potential market inefficiency; a player who might be fine personality-wise who just doesnít get along with his manager. If you can get those guys on the cheap, as the Blue Jays did, I think youíre in good shape.

---

I have yet to figure out why anyone would want to emulate Billy Beane's managerial style. The guys had little (10 years ago) to no success on the field, and his drafting record is pretty average, unless you have a thing for Swisher or Brown.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 10, 2011, 11:03:35 AM

How Television could launch a Rangers dynasty (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6939177/how-television-launch-rangers-dynasty)

Interesting article from over at Grantland about the way Baseball teams are taking in huge money from their local TV deals. Seems especially interesting for a team like the Blue Jays who, because they're owned by Rogers, probably won't see the same sort of financial windfall but may very well be invested in by the parent company as if they had a similar sort of deal.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 10, 2011, 11:10:48 AM

Hard to imagine that a GM wanting to capitalize on market inefficiencies would strike anybody as controversial.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 10, 2011, 11:22:46 AM
I have yet to figure out why anyone would want to emulate Billy Beane's managerial style. The guys had little (10 years ago) to no success on the field, and his drafting record is pretty average, unless you have a thing for Swisher or Brown.

I'm not sure I'd call 5 playoff appearances, including 4 division titles, and a pair of 100+ win seasons "little to no success." That's a lot more than most of the league has accomplished in that same time frame. Sure, they never went anywhere in the playoffs, but, for a good chunk of Beane's time running the show, they were among the best teams in baseball.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 10, 2011, 11:24:41 AM
Also, if people are genuinely curious about the fuss over Billy Beane it should be noted that he took over the A's in 1998, a year after the team went 65-97. Their records from that time until Moneyball was published were:

98: 74-88
99: 87-75
00: 91-70
01: 102-60
02: 103-59
03: 96-66
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 10, 2011, 11:37:49 AM
Also, I think it's a little misleading to say that the A's went "nowhere" in the playoffs. The '03 A's, who the movie is probably going to focus on, got knocked out in the ALDS but took the Red Sox, a team that more than doubled their payroll, to the full five games, losing the three games by a combined 4 runs.

But, again, that's another of the criticisms that doesn't really seem applicable to what the book is about. What Beane was noted for was for building the most competitive team possible with the comparatively limited resources at his disposal. I can't think of anyone who's done a more successful job of that in the history of Baseball.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 11, 2011, 08:54:27 PM
Jays take two of three from the Orioles, another come from behind in the late innings. McGowan wasn't too sharp, but there is still plenty of time left for him to get back into the swing of things. Francisco saved the game, too! :o
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on September 12, 2011, 10:06:44 PM
Jays take two of three from the Orioles, another come from behind in the late innings. McGowan wasn't too sharp, but there is still plenty of time left for him to get back into the swing of things. Francisco saved the game, too! :o

And Loewen hit a home run.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 13, 2011, 09:26:28 PM
What is wrong with Morrow? Yet ANOTHER horrible start in a winnable game. Maybe the Jays need to shut him down for the rest of the season so we don't have to watch him lose the rest of his games. Boston was down and out, Wakefield was wavering and Morrow handed them an easy win (okay, so Perez came in and gave up four hits without getting an out).

I would really like to see Tampa catch Boston, but the Jays don't seem to be doing them any favours tonight. :(
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 14, 2011, 12:26:07 AM
What is wrong with Morrow? Yet ANOTHER horrible start in a winnable game. Maybe the Jays need to shut him down for the rest of the season so we don't have to watch him lose the rest of his games. Boston was down and out, Wakefield was wavering and Morrow handed them an easy win (okay, so Perez came in and gave up four hits without getting an out).

I would really like to see Tampa catch Boston, but the Jays don't seem to be doing them any favours tonight. :(

From what I can tell, there are two major problems with Morrow right now - his breaking pitches are inconsistent, so he can't rely on them, and he's leaving his fastball up in the zone, which makes it a lot more hittable. Shutting him down may not be a bad idea, as it's probably a mechanical issue that will be easier to fix outside of game situations.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 14, 2011, 09:27:53 AM
Cooper is kind of a forgotten about prospect in my opinion. It'll be interesting to see what his future holds in this orginization.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 14, 2011, 01:16:33 PM
I can't wait for next year when the Jays hitting sucks but their pitching is amazing.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on September 14, 2011, 01:30:16 PM
Also, I think it's a little misleading to say that the A's went "nowhere" in the playoffs. The '03 A's, who the movie is probably going to focus on, got knocked out in the ALDS but took the Red Sox, a team that more than doubled their payroll, to the full five games, losing the three games by a combined 4 runs.

But, again, that's another of the criticisms that doesn't really seem applicable to what the book is about. What Beane was noted for was for building the most competitive team possible with the comparatively limited resources at his disposal. I can't think of anyone who's done a more successful job of that in the history of Baseball.

I just re-read Moneyball and to your first point, they felt even in that offseason that they should have won against the Red Sox.  Even the worst teams in baseball win a third of their games.  Given a 5 game series, any team in baseball can beat any other team.  It's not really indicative of who is a better team.

As for your second point?  I agree.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on September 14, 2011, 01:35:51 PM
Morrow is a funny case.  Most of his numbers (at this point) aren't far off from last years.

2010:  IP: 146.1
2011:  IP:  158.1

2010:  Opp AVG = .248
2011:  Opp AVG = .246

2010:  K's:  178
2011:  K's:  179

2010:  BB:  66
2011:  BB:  59

2010:  WHIP:  1.38
2011:  WHIP:  1.33

2010:  Hits:  136
2011:  Hits:  151

There's really not a lot there separting the years.  It mostly comes down to his Home Runs (11 last year, almost double this year with 20) and, I'm guessing, extra base hits. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 14, 2011, 02:25:24 PM
There's really not a lot there separting the years.  It mostly comes down to his Home Runs (11 last year, almost double this year with 20) and, I'm guessing, extra base hits.

Last year's Opp SLG was .389 and this year's is .411 so I don't even know if it is a matter of that many more XBH aside from the homeruns. His WHIP and Opp OBP are both better this year.

Something to consider is that the Jays defense is, I think, significantly worse this year. They downgraded at 1B, C, LF and CF and had the weird situation at 3B for most of the year. Morrow's FIP and DIPS are strong.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 14, 2011, 02:38:04 PM
One of the things Morrow appears to be doing this year more than last year is easing up a little when he gets moderate run support. Last season, when he received 3-5 runs in support, he had an ERA of 3.11, a WHIP of 1.20 and an opponents OPS of .661 with 85 Ks and only 26 walks in 72.1 innings. This season - ERA of 6.14, WHIP of 1.44, OPS of .809, with 87 Ks and only 23 walks in 66 innings. It looks like he's really losing focus when he gets a little run support and relies too much on his talent rather than working hard enough to take advantage of his talent.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 14, 2011, 03:36:57 PM
Just flipped on Yahoo to check the score of the game this afternoon. Sox lead 3-2 in the 6th, but the Jays had Lawrie at 3rd with no out. Pop out and groundout to 3rd later, the inning is over and Jays still trail. I have a feeling this is going to be another L for Mr. Romero. :(

Edit: Aaaand a home run to lead off the bottom of the 6th.

Edit2: It would be nice if Lind could start hitting again if he is going to be hitting behind Bautista, who walks an awful lot.

Edit3: Wow, Jays come back to take the lead! When is Rasmus back? And McCoy is having a reaaally bad game. Romero through 8 with only 103 pitches - I hope they bring him out for the 9th to see if he can finish this.

Final Edit: OMG! Francisco with the save! Jays win! That was unexpected.... and cool. :)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 15, 2011, 01:47:06 PM
When is Rasmus back?

The latest is that they're leaving him with the AA team on rehab for as long as their playoff run goes. So, he's possibly done for the season
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 15, 2011, 02:25:42 PM
When is Rasmus back?

The latest is that they're leaving him with the AA team on rehab for as long as their playoff run goes. So, he's possibly done for the season

mlb.com said yesterday that he'd be back for the weekend

And so on (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110914&content_id=24682710&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor&partnerId=rss_tor)

Although Busta may be more current.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Gerald The Duck on September 15, 2011, 03:21:22 PM
Obviously it's a miniscule sample size so far, but Loewen is an intriguing person to watch going into next season.

Probably a bench player to start next season? Or back down with Las Vegas? What do you guys think about him and his potential?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 15, 2011, 03:30:45 PM
Obviously it's a miniscule sample size so far, but Loewen is an intriguing person to watch going into next season.

Probably a bench player to start next season? Or back down with Las Vegas? What do you guys think about him and his potential?

Unless the team is completely giving up on Travis Snider I'm not sure there's a place for him on the big league club. I figure he'll be back in AAA.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 15, 2011, 03:34:49 PM
mlb.com said yesterday that he'd be back for the weekend

And so on (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110914&content_id=24682710&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor&partnerId=rss_tor)

Although Busta may be more current.

I'm going off what was said during the game yesterday. I'm willing to acknowledge that I may have misheard or it may have just been Martinez speculating, but it didn't sound that way to me.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 17, 2011, 04:10:11 PM
Another blown save for the Jays today (albeit in the 7th inning) as they embarrassingly blow a 6-1 lead to the Yankees.

Just checked the stats, and that is 25 blown saves (ESPN has them with 23), which ties them with St. Louis for 2nd most in the majors behind Washington's 26. Another interesting stat is saves: Washington has 41, St. Louis has 44, Jays have 31, so the Jays have only six more saves than blown saves.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 17, 2011, 06:18:59 PM

Just got back from the game. Couple random observations:

1. Alvarez looks legit. Good, live fastball. Hides the change-up well.
2. I think Adam Loewen is a real long shot to make a team unless he tears the cover off the ball. If you're a 4th outfielder, you've got to be better defensively than Eric Thames
3. Drabek looks good out of the pen but I noticed that he has a problem putting hitters away 0-2.
4. Rasmus may very well be a heck of an outfielder. He gets terrific breaks on the ball.
5. Lawrie did not seem to position himself well at third.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 18, 2011, 02:51:23 PM
Morrow in Dr. Jekyll mode this afternoon so far... waiting for Hyde.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 18, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
Well Hyde didn't show... Nice work there by Morrow.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 18, 2011, 08:31:37 PM
Well Hyde didn't show... Nice work there by Morrow.

He was a little fortunate in that his mistakes early in the game ended up outside the strike zone rather than in a prime hitting area, and, he seemed to settle down nicely after that.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 19, 2011, 09:08:24 PM
When is Escobar back? Listening to McCoy trying to bunt is a painful experience, and that .206 average isn't anything to be happy about either....
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 19, 2011, 09:16:14 PM
When is Escobar back? Listening to McCoy trying to bunt is a painful experience, and that .206 average isn't anything to be happy about either....

At this point, with 9 games left in the year, I'd say the odds are Escobar will probably be shut down for the year. No point bringing him back now - especially in light of the fact that he had a bit of a setback yesterday.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 19, 2011, 09:40:21 PM
When is Escobar back? Listening to McCoy trying to bunt is a painful experience, and that .206 average isn't anything to be happy about either....

At this point, with 9 games left in the year, I'd say the odds are Escobar will probably be shut down for the year. No point bringing him back now - especially in light of the fact that he had a bit of a setback yesterday.

Good point. I suppose I can grin and complain about it. :)

That being said, I didn't like that move to bring in Molina in the bottom of the 9th. He seemed to be a little high after his walk off hit from Friday, swinging at two pitches out of the strike zone before being called out on what even Downs thought was a ball.

Oh great, Wells leads off the 10th with a double. :(

Hopefully the Jays don't lose their first extra inning game at home all season (at least I think it would be)....
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 19, 2011, 09:42:02 PM
Speaking of bad pitching, Lackey got hammered again for Boston tonight. He got yanked, but Boston still leads 11-8 after 5 in the second game against Baltimore.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 19, 2011, 09:43:52 PM
Another excellent start by Romero, from the looks of things. If it wasn't for the fact that Verlander is having an MVP type season and should be the unanimous choice for AL Cy Young, you'd have to think Romero would deserve some consideration.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 19, 2011, 09:45:12 PM
Another excellent start by Romero, from the looks of things. If it wasn't for the fact that Verlander is having an MVP type season and should be the unanimous choice for AL Cy Young, you'd have to think Romero would deserve some consideration.

Agreed - he has been very, very good - good enough to garner some notice.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 19, 2011, 09:46:29 PM
St. Louis continues to win - they beat the Phillies tonight 4-3 to drop Halladay to 18-6.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 19, 2011, 09:47:10 PM
Another excellent start by Romero, from the looks of things. If it wasn't for the fact that Verlander is having an MVP type season and should be the unanimous choice for AL Cy Young, you'd have to think Romero would deserve some consideration.

BR has him at fifth in the league in WAR for pitchers so, yeah, he should be getting some end of ballot votes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 19, 2011, 09:50:47 PM
BR has him at fifth in the league in WAR for pitchers so, yeah, he should be getting some end of ballot votes.

I would hope so. I would also hope that anyone who doesn't give their first place vote to Verlander has their vote taken away. I mean, it's not even close for anyone else - his WAR of 8.5 is almost 2 full games higher than any other pitcher in the AL, and is higher than any other player in baseball not named Jose Bautista or Matt Kemp.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 19, 2011, 10:02:19 PM
Wow. Jays win because of an error, then a dropped ball on what should have been a double play, then a ground ball that should have been an out at the plate was thrown to the first base side and pulling the catcher off the plate....
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on September 20, 2011, 10:14:35 AM
St. Louis continues to win - they beat the Phillies tonight 4-3 to drop Halladay to 18-6.

Seemed near impossible a month ago but both the Red Sox and Braves are vulnerable to having the wild card slip right out of their hands.  This is actually going to make the last week and a half exciting whereas before it seemed as all eight playoff teams were set firmly in place.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 20, 2011, 08:31:49 PM
Every time I watch Drabek pitch, I wish the Jays just let Halladay leave on his own.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 20, 2011, 11:55:58 PM
Cecil seems to act like this a lot when he is lifted:

Quote
ďReally surprised,Ē he said of his reaction to being lifted for Drabek to start the fourth. ďI think thatís why Iím at a loss for words. I only had three innings to work ó um, you know, just canít find the words to really explain anything right now. The ball got up in the third inning and thatís really it. I just donít know.Ē
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 21, 2011, 02:24:54 AM
I think what's more puzzling is that Farrell left Drabek in after he gave up more runs than Cecil did in 2/3 of an inning.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 21, 2011, 11:06:30 AM
In case anyone was wondering, the Jays were officially eliminated from playoff contention on Monday.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on September 21, 2011, 02:09:54 PM
Out of curiosity, would we have ended up with a better compensatory pick with Napoli than Francisco?

I know it would've meant much less time for somebody (whether at C, 1B, or DH), but I can't help but think that what was a questionable trade at the time looks like a terrible trade today.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 21, 2011, 02:56:38 PM
Out of curiosity, would we have ended up with a better compensatory pick with Napoli than Francisco?

I know it would've meant much less time for somebody (whether at C, 1B, or DH), but I can't help but think that what was a questionable trade at the time looks like a terrible trade today.

Napoli's not a free agent at the end of this season - the Jays would either have to offer him to arbitration and sign or trade him, or walk away from him and get nothing. So, this winter, no, the Jays would not have received a better pick for Napoli. Next winter, when he will qualify for free agency . . . well, that depends on what happens with the new CBA and Napoli's production. There's been talk of eliminating or altering draft pick compensation, so, what the compensation could be for him next winter is very much an unknown.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 21, 2011, 03:25:57 PM
Every time I watch Drabek pitch, I wish the Jays just let Halladay leave on his own.

Not me, I'm glad we got Gose and d'Arnaud as a result of the deal even if Drabek doesn't pan out.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 21, 2011, 03:48:53 PM
Sure, assuming Gose and d'Arnaud pan out.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 21, 2011, 07:47:34 PM
 >:( Just saw on the ticker that Lawrie fractued his finger and is one for the Season. What a debut though!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 22, 2011, 10:58:19 AM
Possibly the 'new' Jays logo?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 22, 2011, 11:03:53 AM
Possibly the 'new' Jays logo?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1

I like it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2011, 11:04:38 AM
Possibly the 'new' Jays logo?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1

Isn't that just the old Blue Jays logo?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 22, 2011, 11:10:41 AM
I don't know how many changes to that design were done before, but the site that posted that logo had a link to a comparison:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6152/6172221606_c936657cd8_o.png
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 22, 2011, 11:12:23 AM
Isn't that just the old Blue Jays logo?

It's very similar, but, there are definitely some differences - like, the baseball background being removed, and some of the lines being tightened. It's a modern looking version of the original Blue Jays logo.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2011, 12:14:59 PM
Isn't that just the old Blue Jays logo?

It's very similar, but, there are definitely some differences - like, the baseball background being removed, and some of the lines being tightened. It's a modern looking version of the original Blue Jays logo.

I suppose. I don't know why, though, if you were clearly going for aping the logo with some nostalgia value you wouldn't just go with the logo with some nostalgia value.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 22, 2011, 12:23:16 PM
I suppose. I don't know why, though, if you were clearly going for aping the logo with some nostalgia value you wouldn't just go with the logo with some nostalgia value.

Merchandising. They retain the ability to sell the true retro jerseys, but also have ones with the new, slightly different logo as well.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2011, 12:35:13 PM
Merchandising. They retain the ability to sell the true retro jerseys, but also have ones with the new, slightly different logo as well.

Well, you could still have new merch with an old logo. Case in point every new Red Sox, Mets, Indians, etc jersey.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 22, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
Possibly the 'new' Jays logo?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1

By far the best news I've heard all day.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on September 22, 2011, 02:35:25 PM
Possibly the 'new' Jays logo?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1

By far the best news I've heard all day.

It looks legit. Usually these "rumours" never amount to much but I'm sold. Not bad looking either.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 23, 2011, 04:18:58 AM
Possibly the 'new' Jays logo?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1 (http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057876--newest-blue-jays-logo-leaked-online?bn=1)


Just like what I was hoping!   :)  About time, too, to go back with what has always been  a popular (and winning) design, for the team and their fans.  WAY TO GO, BLUE JAYS!!!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on September 23, 2011, 10:19:19 AM
Really like the new logo.  Love the old feel to it. 

I just really hope that red isn't going to be a primary colour on the new jerseys as been suggested. 

Time to get a Lawrie jersey. :) 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on September 23, 2011, 10:35:38 AM
Really like the new logo.  Love the old feel to it. 

I just really hope that red isn't going to be a primary colour on the new jerseys as been suggested. 

Time to get a Lawrie jersey. :)

Watch for a red alternate. The "BLUE" Jays front office aren't that stupid to make red the primary colour are they?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 23, 2011, 09:47:12 PM
Make that 2 very nice starts in a row for Morrow now... Way to finish strong!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on September 24, 2011, 02:19:56 PM
Make that 2 very nice starts in a row for Morrow now... Way to finish strong!

I particularly liked these quotes from Morrow:

"The electric Morrow shut out the Yankees over eight innings in his previous start, and now the Rays for seven. He believes he has finally discovered the secret to being an elite starter: Itís max effort all the time.

'Thatís definitely the approach Iíll be taking from here on out,' Morrow said after winning a career-high 11th game. 'The last couple of games have proved what I need to do. Just be aggressive on every pitch. When you take a little bit off it just makes your breaking stuff a little bit sloppier and give them a better chance to hit the fastball.'

'Itís a little frustrating to come to that now, but when I was going through that stretch, all you can do is learn from it. I realize now thatís the approach I have to take.'Ē

Certainly has the right mindset.  He has all the tools to be a very good starting pitcher.  Hopefully he can carry it over into next season and hits the ground running from spring training.

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 24, 2011, 04:10:30 PM
Make that 2 very nice starts in a row for Morrow now... Way to finish strong!

I particularly liked these quotes from Morrow:

"The electric Morrow shut out the Yankees over eight innings in his previous start, and now the Rays for seven. He believes he has finally discovered the secret to being an elite starter: Itís max effort all the time.

'Thatís definitely the approach Iíll be taking from here on out,' Morrow said after winning a career-high 11th game. 'The last couple of games have proved what I need to do. Just be aggressive on every pitch. When you take a little bit off it just makes your breaking stuff a little bit sloppier and give them a better chance to hit the fastball.'

'Itís a little frustrating to come to that now, but when I was going through that stretch, all you can do is learn from it. I realize now thatís the approach I have to take.'Ē

Certainly has the right mindset.  He has all the tools to be a very good starting pitcher.  Hopefully he can carry it over into next season and hits the ground running from spring training.

Yeah. It's nice to know anyway that you still probably have a guy worth continuing to mold in to a mid to top of the rotation starter. It's not a postition I think the Jays can afford to still be looking for other options right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 24, 2011, 09:48:55 PM
So why were the three runs in the 8th off Romero earned (at least according to yahoo)? If not for the errorby McCoy, the inning would have been over. Anybody know?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 24, 2011, 10:26:11 PM
So why were the three runs in the 8th off Romero earned (at least according to yahoo)? If not for the errorby McCoy, the inning would have been over. Anybody know?

Yahoo only has Romero as having given up 1 earned run, so, my guess is was a mistake on their part.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 25, 2011, 04:08:03 PM
As much as I feel it's in the Jays' best interest to lose the rest of their games in the hope that they 1st round climbs into the protected range of the draft, it's really difficult to watch.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 26, 2011, 10:23:44 PM
Boston making things interesting, coming into the 9th trailing Baltimore 6-2. One run is already in, two runners on, Lowrie at the plate as the tying run. Tampa has already won.

Edit: Orioles hang on - tie for the wild card! Wow.

Also, Atlanta has lost, St. Louis down two against Houston.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 26, 2011, 10:38:31 PM
Also, Atlanta has lost, St. Louis down two against Houston.

St Louis tie it in the 8th. The last couple days of the season are going to be mighty interesting.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on September 26, 2011, 10:58:38 PM
This might be the most unusual piece of MLB news I've heard. ESPN Chicago reports that White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen traded to the Marlins for 2 minor-leaguers.

http://es.pn/qzy69R
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 27, 2011, 02:44:30 AM
This might be the most unusual piece of MLB news I've heard. ESPN Chicago reports that White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen traded to the
Marlins for 2 minor-leaguers.

http://es.pn/qzy69R


Ha ha!  Imagine if that were possible!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on September 27, 2011, 07:31:07 AM

This might be the most unusual piece of MLB news I've heard. ESPN Chicago reports that White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen traded to the
Marlins for 2 minor-leaguers.

http://es.pn/qzy69R


Ha ha!  Imagine if that were possible!

It is.  When Lou Pinella went to Tampa, they traded Randy Winn to Seattle as compensation.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 27, 2011, 08:51:26 PM
Another crazy baseball evening!

Boston up 5-3 on Baltimore. Sox had a fast hook on Bedard, when he gave up two runs and put two on with one out in the third. Now Zach Britton has walked a couple in the 4th. Last team standing again, it appears.

Rays / Yanks tied 2-2 in the 5th. Rays pretty much have to sweep, IMO, to have a chance. I can't see the O's sweeping the Sox.

Talk about your choke jobs - Atlanta getting whooped again, but St. Louis behind 1-0 to Houston (oops, in the time it took me to type that it is now 5-0). War of attrition over there.

Jays already 0-5 with runners in scoring position through 3 innings, trail 1-0.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 27, 2011, 09:00:49 PM
Tampa just turned a triple play on the Yankees in the top of the 6th! :o
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 27, 2011, 10:10:51 PM
Whats up with Buehrle? Is he retiring or just leaving the Sox?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 27, 2011, 11:21:54 PM
Well, unless the Cards blow a 6 run lead in the 9th, both wildcard races are going to be tied heading into the final day of the regular season.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 28, 2011, 03:13:07 PM
This Phil Umber guy is pretty good, at least according to Uck Artinez and At Abler. Orrow isn't having a great game though...
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 28, 2011, 03:39:59 PM
It's pretty much guaranteed the Jays will be on the short end of every questionable call.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 28, 2011, 04:07:17 PM
The line on Morrow through 6 seems pretty good... I'm not watching though.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 28, 2011, 04:22:03 PM
The offence has been terrible the last week of the season. Looking at the averages, you can see why. Six of the nine guys in the lineup today are batting .220 or below.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 28, 2011, 04:40:43 PM
Despite some incompetent management by Farrell, the Jays have managed to take the lead on some even more incompetent pitching by the White Sox.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on September 28, 2011, 04:46:57 PM
Despite some incompetent management by Farrell, the Jays have managed to take the lead on some even more incompetent pitching by the White Sox.

Haha, what was that...1 hit and 3 walks? Fantastic. McCoy is terribad. Like...awful. Hopefully Thames actually gets a hit here to put the game out of reach.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 28, 2011, 04:52:12 PM
Despite some incompetent management by Farrell, the Jays have managed to take the lead on some even more incompetent pitching by the White Sox.

Haha, what was that...1 hit and 3 walks? Fantastic. McCoy is terribad. Like...awful. Hopefully Thames actually gets a hit here to put the game out of reach.

Two hits, actually. Two walkbis. I like how Jerry and Alan back when Thames first came up used to call him a "big play hitter". He is closer to "Edwin Encarnacion with runners in scoring position" than "big play hitter". Too bad, it would have been nice to see Bautista with one more shot at the plate.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 28, 2011, 05:00:21 PM
And the season ends with a win on a blown save, rather than a loss on a blown save (although Francisco tried to help that one along). .500 season for the Jays. Woo hoo.

Now on to the real baseball season!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 28, 2011, 05:09:48 PM
What did Francisco do? He gave up an infield single...
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on September 28, 2011, 05:17:53 PM
A loss might have been the better result for the team (depending what some other teams do tonight), but, ending the season with a win is a nice moral victory.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on September 28, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
What did Francisco do? He gave up an infield single...

On a curve that was outside the zone as well. He made a good pitch, the batter just got lucky...not sure how he pulled that towards 3rd either, good defensive at bat I guess. Francisco definitely not at fault there. Made a good pitch in my opinion.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 28, 2011, 10:08:28 PM
David Price with the choke in his team's biggest game of the season, six runs in four innings, Yankees are pounding Tampa 7-0, and with Boston up 3-2 on a rain delay in Baltimore, things look dim for the Rays.

Atlanta simply does not want to make it into the playoffs easily. After leading 3-1, runs in the 7th and 9th tie the game up (they were lucky they didn't lose it right then and there). St. Louis is up 7-0 on Houston, so Atlanta HAS to win to force a playoff (I don't see Houston coming back).
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 28, 2011, 10:25:14 PM
Umm... err... spoke too soon? Yanks 7-0 lead is down to 7-6. This one isn't over yet.

Edit: Rays tie it with two outs in the 9th!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 28, 2011, 10:54:40 PM
Wow! Crazy.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on September 28, 2011, 11:28:03 PM
ray and yankees are tied 7-7 in the 11th inning and red sox r winning 3-2 in the 9th inning and the braves and phillies r tied 3-3 in top of the 13th and the cards beat houston 8-0 tonight
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on September 28, 2011, 11:35:59 PM
Phillies just pulled ahead 4-3 in the top of the 13th. Braves lose and St. Louis gets the NL wildcard. If the Braves come back to win, both teams are heading to St. Louis for the tie-breaker.

Yankees and Tampa still tied at 7 in the bottom of the 11th. Boston leading Baltimore 3-2 in the top of the 9th. They are back playing following a lengthy rain delay.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 28, 2011, 11:41:54 PM
Braves complete the choke.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on September 28, 2011, 11:42:53 PM
yup they did
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: chestyleroux on September 28, 2011, 11:44:41 PM
Braves complete the choke.

8.5 games up on September 1st.

Ouch!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 28, 2011, 11:50:52 PM
The braves have been losing big games for years.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 29, 2011, 12:01:33 AM
The Orioles have just tied it in the bottom of the 9th.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 29, 2011, 12:03:00 AM
And Baltimore wins!

Wow.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on September 29, 2011, 12:03:17 AM
lol @Red sox and the  orioles win 4-2 haha :)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 29, 2011, 12:07:13 AM
Quote
FriedgeHNIC Elliotte Friedman
Red Sox were 77-0 when leading after 8.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on September 29, 2011, 12:08:03 AM
And now the walk off homer from Longoria... just insane.

I have never seen anything like this.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 29, 2011, 12:08:09 AM
Longoria with the walk-off!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 29, 2011, 12:08:23 AM
Longoria blasts the Rays into the playoffs! Quite poetic that Crawford was the one to drop the ball. Money can't buy you playoffs, Carl.

Oh, and eat it Crapelbon!!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: donkeyy0 on September 29, 2011, 12:11:44 AM
Longoria blasts the Rays into the playoffs! Quite poetic that Crawford was the one to drop the ball. Money can't buy you playoffs, Carl.

Oh, and eat it Crapelbon!!

Didn't watch the game...Papelbon with the blown save? LOVE IT
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 29, 2011, 12:18:18 AM
Astute: http://www.nesn.com/2011/01/2011-red-sox-will-challenge-1927-yankees-for-title-of-greatest-team-in-major-league-history.html
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on September 29, 2011, 12:20:43 AM
Crapelbon with the blown save and the loss.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on September 29, 2011, 12:26:07 AM

I mean, the Yankees did everything short of pitching Whitey Ford to hand that game to the Rays but holy cheese was that the craziest night of baseball I've ever seen.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on September 29, 2011, 12:38:57 AM
Tonight in itself felt like I was watching a bunch of playoff games.  By far the most exciting night I've witnessed in baseball in a long time.  I was flipping between the three games pretty much with every pitch.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on September 29, 2011, 12:47:20 AM
I haven't cheered this much for a non-Jays team(s) since 2001 when the Diamondbacks came back to beat the Yankees in the bottom of the 9th of Game 7 to win the World Series.

Papelbon and his stupid stare and hollowed mouth can go screw off already.  :)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on September 29, 2011, 12:54:20 AM

I mean, the Yankees did everything short of pitching Whitey Ford to hand that game to the Rays but holy cheese was that the craziest night of baseball I've ever seen.

When Boston lost, I'm shocked that Steinbrenner didn't sign himself to a 1-day contract and insist that he pitch the 12th.  I can't believe that we saw two of the biggest September collapses of all time, both taking to the final day of the season, and really, both teams who had the advantage falling apart.  Unbelievable.  Boston was pretty successful as they managed to be quite possibly the best choke artists in the history of baseball.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on September 29, 2011, 07:12:03 AM
Wow. Just wow. What a night!  :o
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 29, 2011, 08:26:05 AM
Astute: http://www.nesn.com/2011/01/2011-red-sox-will-challenge-1927-yankees-for-title-of-greatest-team-in-major-league-history.html

That is the greatest article ever written about the greatest team ever to play the game.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on September 29, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
Astute: http://www.nesn.com/2011/01/2011-red-sox-will-challenge-1927-yankees-for-title-of-greatest-team-in-major-league-history.html

That is the greatest article ever written about the greatest team ever to play the game.

Wasn't totally off the mark:

Quote
"The 2011 Red Sox could accomplish a feat that has never been done."
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on September 30, 2011, 02:45:30 AM
To think that the Tampa Bay Rays were 10 games back of the first-place Yankees back in August, and with the Red Sox, who seemed firmly entrenched hovering between 1st and 2nd place in the division.....  well, down to the wire, as they say, what a night for Tampa Bay!!!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on September 30, 2011, 06:24:36 PM
Tampa starting out with a bang - they are already up 6-0 on Texas in the 4th.

Edit: Kelly Shop-vac is tearing C.J. Wilson apart - two homers, 5 RBI, 8-0 after 5.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on October 01, 2011, 12:24:26 PM
I remember all the percentage chances of the Leafs being thrown around last season.  How's this?  On Sept. 3, Boston's chance of making the playoffs was put at 99.6%.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 01, 2011, 12:25:50 PM
I remember all the percentage chances of the Leafs being thrown around last season.  How's this?  On Sept. 3, Boston's chance of making the playoffs was put at 99.6%.

Jesus.... On Sept 1 , they were 1.5 games ahead of the Yanks I think!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 02, 2011, 06:45:27 PM
Valverde came in today with the score 5-1. By the time the game was over, the final was 5-3 with 2 runners on base. Pretty shaky!

Next up: Sabathia vs. Verlander, part 1.1. :)

Side note: Aaron Hill is 3-3 so far today. Game tied 4-4 in the 5th.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 03, 2011, 09:01:44 PM
Looks like "the team of destiny" is going to need to do a little work if they plan on moving on to the next round - an inability to plate runners in scoring position in the 8th inning ultimately cost them in a 4-3 loss to Texas in Game 3.

Say, wasn't Boston also supposed to be a "team of destiny"? Or was that just "better than the 1927 Yankees"?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 04, 2011, 02:55:27 PM

It's tough to get a great sense on how I feel about the season as a whole. On one hand, I was very much wrong about the Jays as I thought they'd be lucky to win 70 games and they won 11 more than that. On the other, I was very much right about there being an opportunity in the AL East that could be seized by a well put together club. The Jays missed an opportunity there.

The moves the team made are probably even divided between the ones I like(Wells trade, Bautista signing), the ones I don't(The Napoli trade, anything to do with the pitching staff) and the ones that probably need some time to reveal themselves(Rasmus, Tyler Beede)

Overall I'd probably give AA a solid B for his work this season and Farrell a C+.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 04, 2011, 05:17:03 PM
I have to agree with you Nik.

Looks like Napoli helped out Texas, although Beltre was the hero today with 3 home runs. The dream is over for the Rays as they bow out in 4 - pretty disappointing after such a high last week.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 04, 2011, 11:03:58 PM

I know Bautista doesn't like playing 3B and all but I was looking him over at fangraphs and, wow, he ranked terribly at RF in terms of UZR. I really think the team should re-consider sticking him in the outfield.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on October 04, 2011, 11:17:38 PM
what is UZR
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 04, 2011, 11:23:36 PM
what is UZR

Ultimate Zone Rating. An advanced fielding metric. It ranked Bautista as the worst RF in the league this year. I only mention it because it jives with what I've always thought which is that while there's some value with his arm, he's not very fast and doesn't get great jumps on the ball.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 05, 2011, 11:34:45 AM
what is UZR
Ultimate Zone Rating. An advanced fielding metric. It
ranked Bautista as the worst RF in the league this year.
I only mention it because it jives with what I've always
thought which is that while there's some value with his
arm, he's not very fast and doesn't get great jumps on
the ball.
 

Bautista may not be the greatest right fielder in the game right now, but, he is of value in other areas to the club.  While he may not be all things to all people, think of just what the Jays' total offensive percentage would have been without Joey Bats at the helm?  I can't imagine for better, but for worse.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 05, 2011, 11:40:29 AM
Bautista may not be the greatest right fielder in the game right now, but, he is of value in other areas to the club.

Really? The league leader in HR, OPS and OWAR has value outside of his fielding? Step back from that ledge.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 05, 2011, 11:48:10 AM
Bautista may not be the greatest right fielder in the game right now, but, he is of value in other areas to the club.
Really? The league leader in HR, OPS and OWAR has value outside of his fielding? Step back from that ledge.
 

You know as well as I do that Bautista contributed to the Jays in the offensive department more so than in the defensive department (fielding).  You mention in your post that the Jays would do well to keep him out of right field.  In which I say, it's up to the Jays to figure out just where (which position) he fits in best.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 05, 2011, 11:53:01 AM
You know as well as I do that Bautista contributed to the Jays in the offensive department more so than in the defensive department (fielding).  You mention in your post that the Jays would do well to keep him out of right field.  In which I say, it's up to the Jays to figure out just where (which position) he fits in best.

Yes, and I'm saying he's had a bad year in RF. No more, no less.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on October 05, 2011, 02:04:08 PM
I was looking into Carl Crawford's salary and found this:

7 years/$142M (2011-17)
signed by Boston as a free agent 12/11/10
$6M signing bonus (paid in $1M increments 1/10, 5/1, 6/1, 7/1, 8/1, 9/1/10)

11:$14M, 12:$19.5M, 13:$20M, 14:$20.25M, 15:$20.5M, 16:$20.75M, 17:$21M
no-trade protection:

Crawford may block deals to two clubs
if traded, club acquiring Crawford may not subsequently trade him to NY Yankees
award bonuses: $50,000 for All Star; $75,000 for ALCS MVP; $0.1M each for Gold Glove, Silver Slugger, WS MVP; $0.2M for MVP ($0.125M for 2nd in vote, $0.1M for 3rd, $75,000 for 4th, $50,000 for 5th)



How funny is that clause?  The hatred between those 2 teams runs as deep as NTC with other teams.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 05, 2011, 02:07:18 PM
How funny is that clause?  The hatred between those 2 teams runs as deep as NTC with other teams.

Even funnier considering the recent statement by Cashman about only feigning interest in Crawford to drive up the price Boston paid. Something tells me trading for Carl Crawford doesn't weigh too heavily on the Yankees minds.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on October 05, 2011, 02:13:54 PM
How funny is that clause?  The hatred between those 2 teams runs as deep as NTC with other teams.

Even funnier considering the recent statement by Cashman about only feigning interest in Crawford to drive up the price Boston paid. Something tells me trading for Carl Crawford doesn't weigh too heavily on the Yankees minds.

After this past season, Boston may be the ones asking to waive that clause and begging Cashman to take him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on October 05, 2011, 09:10:22 PM
Carpenter v. Halladay in game 5 on Friday night.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: skippy on October 05, 2011, 09:36:09 PM
Carpenter v. Halladay in game 5 on Friday night.

 :'(
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on October 05, 2011, 11:08:11 PM
Bautista may not be the greatest right fielder in the game right now, but, he is of value in other areas to the club.
Really? The league leader in HR, OPS and OWAR has value outside of his fielding? Step back from that ledge.
 

You know as well as I do that Bautista contributed to the Jays in the offensive department more so than in the defensive department (fielding).  You mention in your post that the Jays would do well to keep him out of right field.  In which I say, it's up to the Jays to figure out just where (which position) he fits in best.

If the Jays need to think about that one, they are stupid.  Move Lawrie back to 2B, play the infield of

Bautista-Escobar-Lawrie-Lind and you suddenly have one of the best offensive infields in the league while not being terrible defensively.  You also free up a roster spot for Snider in the outfield and and play: Thames - Rasmus - Snider.  Then you just need to find a guy to platoon with Lind/Encarnacion at DH and while not a great lineup, you save money while trying to actually build a pitching staff outside of Romero and a yet to be consistent Janssen.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 06, 2011, 12:26:33 PM
Seems like a good idea to me. As a side, if you let KJ walk, you also get a decent pick to boot.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: lc9 on October 06, 2011, 12:28:26 PM
Awesome night in sports for me tonight, Leafs season opener is overshadowed by the Tigers-Yankees in the Bronx.

Go Leafs and Go Tigers!  Fister is going to twirl a gem tonight.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 06, 2011, 08:55:33 PM
2-0 Detroit in the 3rd, but Nova was pulled by the Yankees after just two innings and three hits. Throw the book out in the playoffs, I guess.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 06, 2011, 09:05:47 PM
2-0 Detroit in the 3rd, but Nova was pulled by the Yankees after just two innings and three hits. Throw the book out in the playoffs, I guess.

In Game 5 of a 5 game series? Absolutely.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 06, 2011, 09:51:59 PM
2-0 Detroit in the 3rd, but Nova was pulled by the Yankees after just two innings and three hits. Throw the book out in the playoffs, I guess.

In Game 5 of a 5 game series? Absolutely.

Agreed. It just looks weird. Fister has pitched the first four innings for Detroit. Yanks have used Nova, Hughes, Logan, and now Sabathia.

Verlander may be available later too - Fister has already thrown 82 pitches through 4.

On a side note, I think that game started at 807. My computer reads 951 and they are only in the 5th. That drives me nuts.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 06, 2011, 09:52:51 PM
On a side note, I think that game started at 807. My computer reads 951 and they are only in the 5th. That drives me nuts.

Post season baseball is slow. The between inning breaks are extended to sell more ad time.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 06, 2011, 09:54:09 PM
On a side note, I think that game started at 807. My computer reads 951 and they are only in the 5th. That drives me nuts.

Post season baseball is slow. The between inning breaks are extended to sell more ad time.

I know. It still drives me nuts.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on October 06, 2011, 11:18:31 PM
3-2 tigers bt 8th
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on October 06, 2011, 11:21:28 PM
2-0 Detroit in the 3rd, but Nova was pulled by the Yankees after just two innings and three hits. Throw the book out in the playoffs, I guess.

He had forearm tightness apparently.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 06, 2011, 11:48:06 PM
Down go the Yankees. I see we were witness to another vintage ARod post season performance.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on October 07, 2011, 01:58:11 AM
yup see ya yankees thank god there out.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 07, 2011, 06:35:57 AM
Yankees. Haha!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on October 07, 2011, 09:23:17 AM
Red Sox collapsed.  Rays were gassed to move on.  The Yankees have been bounced.  Now just need the Phillies to be put to bed.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on October 07, 2011, 10:45:50 AM
Very happy to see the Yankees bounced. For what it was worth now, Jim Leyland had said that Verlander was not going to pitch in game 5 under any circumstances. Bring on the Rangers in the ALCS. Tigers did win the season series.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 07, 2011, 10:55:59 AM
Down go the Yankees. I see we were witness to another vintage ARod post season performance.


Over-priced, over-paid, over-hyped....
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 07, 2011, 10:58:55 AM
Down go the Yankees. I see we were witness to another vintage ARod post season performance.


Over-priced, over-paid, over-hyped....

A-Rod earns one third of Toronto's entire payroll.  :o
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 07, 2011, 11:41:30 AM
Red Sox collapsed.  Rays were gassed to move on.  The Yankees have been bounced.  Now just need the Phillies to be put to bed.


I'm cheering for Doc!

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 07, 2011, 02:41:40 PM

Worth mentioning that A-Rod still has a career OPS of .884 in the post-season? 45 points higher than Derek Jeter? Who also stunk against the Rangers?

Apparently still.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 07, 2011, 07:26:03 PM

Worth mentioning that A-Rod still has a career OPS of .884 in the post-season? 45 points higher than Derek Jeter? Who also stunk against the Rangers?

Apparently still.

Yeah. He was a decent post-season performer when he was still in Seattle and had a good run in 2009 as well. It's also probably worth pointing that his career ALDS OPS is .750.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 07, 2011, 08:50:02 PM
My radio craps out just as Milwaukee gets the winning hit to advance. 3-2 in 10 innings.

Edit: Forgot to mention, the former Jays didn't represent well late in the game. Hill came up after Arizona had tied the game in the 9th with 2-on and none out and struck out. He ended the playoffs batting .278 on an 0-4 in game 5. We will see if the Dbacks pick up his options.

Overbay came up in the 10th and also struck out.

Other ex-Jay stuff: Halladay gives up a run in the first, but throws 31 pitches. It will be interesting to see how many innings he can go.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 07, 2011, 11:11:57 PM
What a pitchers' duel! Carpenter outpitches Halladay in a 1-0 Cards victory to win the series in five games! The Cards led off the game with a triple, followed by a double, and that was it. Halladay 1 run on 6 hits over 8, Carpenter no runs on 3 hits over 9. Incredible!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 07, 2011, 11:22:25 PM
Yeah. He was a decent post-season performer when he was still in Seattle and had a good run in 2009 as well. It's also probably worth pointing that his career ALDS OPS is .750.

So, for his career he's been ok in the ALDS, and phenomenally lights out in the ALCS and World Series. Doesn't really jive with the media perception of his post-season play, does it?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 07, 2011, 11:36:20 PM

Just because I know some people like to talk about the fiction that MLB doesn't have parity or provide an opportunity for lower-payrolls to complete, here's how the playoff teams ranked in terms of payroll this year:

#1, #2, #10, #11, #13, #17, #25, #29
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on October 08, 2011, 12:27:10 AM
I'm not the least bit upset Halladay is going to have to wait another year. :)

What a gem by both former Blue Jays.  Throw in that starting pitcher in Milwaukee we had and that's one heck of a starting rotation. :(
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 08, 2011, 10:13:15 AM
Man, I thought Philly and Boston were gold for the WS before the season started.  :-[
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 08, 2011, 10:29:41 AM
Man, I thought Philly and Boston were gold for the WS before the season started.  :-[
 

I was hoping for a Phillies-Yankees World Series tilt, with Halladay winning it all.  Oops, didn't happen!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 08, 2011, 02:06:07 PM
Man, I thought Philly and Boston were gold for the WS before the season started.  :-[

I figured Boston might be in tough in the playoffs against the Yanks, but, I had the Phillies pegged as the clear WS favs. Oh well.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on October 08, 2011, 03:50:28 PM
Don't look directly at it!!!

(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/739480/marlins.gif)

Supposedly the new Marlins homerun celebration piece.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 08, 2011, 09:59:26 PM
Bit of rain falling in Arlington right now - game is in the top of the 5th with the Rangers up 3-0, Verlander has not looked like the 24-5 guy from the regular season. Looking at the radar loop, things could get pushed back a day, just like game 1 of the Tigers-Yankees.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on October 12, 2011, 12:36:45 PM
Theo Epstein reportedly set to sign on to become the Cubs' GM.

That'd be one impressive resume if he can say that he ended the looooong drought of both the Red Sox and Cubs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 12, 2011, 12:38:49 PM
Indeed... and smart move for him too I think. A couple more years and his shelf life in Boston might have been up anyway. Always nice to leave on your own terms.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 12, 2011, 12:54:52 PM

I think it's pretty clear that Boston wasn't overly enthused with him coming back and with decent reason. As good as he was early on he's been responsible for some horrible contracts of late. Lackey, Dice-K, JD Drew, Crawford and others probably totalled something in the area of a half billion dollars that the team regrets.

I think they knew he'd have a landing spot and that they could get some compensation for him. Otherwise, I think they'd have fired him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 12, 2011, 12:56:54 PM
Theo Epstein reportedly set to sign on to become the Cubs' GM.

That'd be one impressive resume if he can say that he
ended the looooong drought of both the Red Sox
and Cubs.


If there's anyone who can break the Cubs' drought, it's most probably Epstein.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 12, 2011, 01:11:53 PM
Not that long ago, mlbtraderumors.com went over the pitching rotations Epstein put together and, let's just say, while they had a couple really good years, for the most part, they've put together some less than impressive performances. They've largely been middle of the pack in terms of numbers.

This is the post I was talking about:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/10/theo-epstein-and-starting-pitching.html
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on October 12, 2011, 03:23:56 PM
The Red Sox could hire the Fenway janitor to run the team and it wouldn't matter. It doesn't take much experience to just throw money at people. Epstein is overrated. I bet the Cubs never make it while he's there.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 13, 2011, 02:25:38 AM
Cardinals lead the Brewers 2 games to 1, as they defeat Milwaukee 4-3, at home in St. Louis. 

For more:  http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/12/brewers_cards/

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 13, 2011, 02:28:35 AM
Cruz and Napoli combine to power the Rangers to a 7-3 win over the Tigers, in Detroit.  Texas now holds a 3 games to 1 margin over Detroit in this series.

For more:  http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/12/rangers_tigers/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/12/rangers_tigers/)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 07:43:27 AM
Some chatter that along with the keys to the franchise, Epstein will have a blank check... The Cubs could be an interesting team to watch this off-season.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on October 13, 2011, 09:25:06 AM
Some chatter that along with the keys to the franchise, Epstein will have a blank check... The Cubs could be an interesting team to watch this off-season.

Hello Albert Pujols/Prince Fielder, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, CC Sabathia, and CJ Wilson.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 09:29:54 AM
Some chatter that along with the keys to the franchise, Epstein will have a blank check... The Cubs could be an interesting team to watch this off-season.

Hello Albert Pujols/Prince Fielder

... and more... and along with that I understand there is going to be an enormous amount of money spent on the rejuvenation of Wrigley. Exciting times if you're a Cubs fan.   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on October 13, 2011, 09:50:05 AM
Some chatter that along with the keys to the franchise, Epstein will have a blank check... The Cubs could be an interesting team to watch this off-season.

Hello Albert Pujols/Prince Fielder

... and more... and along with that I understand there is going to be an enormous amount of money spent on the rejuvenation of Wrigley. Exciting times if you're a Cubs fan.

I added a few more marquee names they will probably go after ;)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 11:23:04 AM

I wouldn't be so quick to assume Epstein is going to come in and start spending gigantic sums of money. The Cubs are a long ways off and Epstein's a guy who made his reputation via the draft and adding lower tier guys. He got caught up in bidding wars in part because of the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry but I'd actually be pretty surprised if he took over a struggling organization and immediately started surrendering draft picks.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 11:28:56 AM
They could also be very active on the trade front, taking on larger contracts and so on. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 12:11:31 PM
They could also be very active on the trade front, taking on larger contracts and so on.

They could but Epstein's a smart guy. He's going to know he's not taking over a team that is a piece or two away. I'm guessing he'll start building the organization legitimately.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 12:13:27 PM
They could also be very active on the trade front, taking on larger contracts and so on.

They could but Epstein's a smart guy. He's going to know he's not taking over a team that is a piece or two away. I'm guessing he'll start building the organization legitimately.

Well sure... I don't think that rumored blank check has an expiry date at this point.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 12:15:29 PM
Well sure... I don't think that rumored blank check has an expiry date at this point.

But what I'm saying there is that I actually think this hire makes the Cubs less likely to be players for Pujols/Fielder/whoever.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 12:20:45 PM
Well sure... I don't think that rumored blank check has an expiry date at this point.

But what I'm saying there is that I actually think this hire makes the Cubs less likely to be players for Pujols/Fielder/whoever.

I guess that depends on how long Epstein feels these guys can contribute and they fit in to his plan.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 12:24:05 PM
I guess that depends on how long Epstein feels these guys can contribute and they fit in to his plan.

And I think that's the red flag on both guys. Pujols is 32 and Fielder has long term questions because of his Pillsbury crafted physique.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 12:25:35 PM
I guess that depends on how long Epstein feels these guys can contribute and they fit in to his plan.

And I think that's the red flag on both guys. Pujols is 32 and Fielder has long term questions because of his Pillsbury crafted physique.

You mean his Babe Ruth physique?  ;)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:16:39 PM
You mean his Babe Ruth physique?  ;)

Yes. Well, except Fielder lists out as three inches shorter and 60 lbs heavier than the Bambino.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on October 13, 2011, 01:17:51 PM
Top 10 Worst Contracts in Baseball (http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/10/11/the-worst-contracts-in-baseball/)

Half-way through the article.  Quick summary (the figures are what remains on the contract):

1. Vernon Wells, three years, $63 million
2. A-Rod, six years, $153 million
3. Carl Crawford, six years, $128 million
4. Ryan Howard, five years, $125 million
5. Barry Zito, two years, $46 million
6. John Lackey, three years, $45.75 million
7. Alfonso Soriano, three years, $54 million
8. Adam Dunn, three years, $44 million
9. Jayson Werth, six years, $116 million
10. Mark Teixeira, five years, $117.5 million



Edit: I should add that I think the   Joe Mauer contract should be somewhere in there.  That could very well be the worst contract in a year or two.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 01:21:58 PM
You mean his Babe Ruth physique?  ;)

Yes. Well, except Fielder lists out as three inches shorter and 60 lbs heavier than the Bambino.

... and the Pillsbury dough boy? What are his numbers?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:24:24 PM
... and the Pillsbury dough boy? What are his numbers?

Well, he's little, right?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 13, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
You mean his Babe Ruth physique?  ;)

Yes. Well, except Fielder lists out as three inches shorter and 60 lbs heavier than the Bambino.

That, and Ruth wasn't really all that out of shape in comparison to the other players of his day. Very few players were particularly fit back then. Ruth's issues were more due to his lifestyle (which also wasn't that uncommon at the time) than his weight. Fielder, on the other hand . . .
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:33:29 PM
That, and Ruth wasn't really all that out of shape in comparison to the other players of his day. Very few players were particularly fit back then. Ruth's issues were more due to his lifestyle (which also wasn't that uncommon at the time) than his weight. Fielder, on the other hand . . .

Well, the thing about Ruth is that a lot of the perception of him has to do, as you say, with the time during which he played. For most of his career, Babe Ruth looked like this:

http://www.gameplanforlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/babe_ruth.jpg (http://www.gameplanforlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/babe_ruth.jpg)

and the accounts from the time fit that. He was described as a big, powerful guy with a round face. He wasn't slow or immobile. He had 5 seasons with 10+ triples including a career high of 16.  The issue with Ruth, as you allude to, is that he had binges of putting on weight and, when he got up in years, he stayed heavy.

That's very different from Fielder who's just a big fat guy who's good at hitting.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 01:35:34 PM
You know who the big fat Fielder reminds me of? Fielder. - The other guy who could flat out hit.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:42:00 PM
You know who the big fat Fielder reminds me of? Fielder. - The other guy who could flat out hit.

That's probably more accurate and that's probably why I'm not all that high on signing Fielder the younger. Prince is 27 years old. Papa Fielder at 27 put up a 3.4 WAR, then a 2.5 the next year, then never even put up a 2.0 again in his career. His last decent year was at the age of 30 and he was out of the league at 34.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 01:45:55 PM
You know who the big fat Fielder reminds me of? Fielder. - The other guy who could flat out hit.

That's probably more accurate and that's probably why I'm not all that high on signing Fielder the younger. Prince is 27 years old. Papa Fielder at 27 put up a 3.4 WAR, then a 2.5 the next year, then never even put up a 2.0 again in his career. His last decent year was at the age of 30 and he was out of the league at 34.


... but while Jr. is ~ 40 lbs heavier, I'd wager his body fat% is much lower then that of his old man and in much better shape. Sr. played 12 or 13 years in the bigs and I see no reason why Jr. can't exceed that.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 01:50:56 PM
Jr. - 16 career SBs
Sr. - 2 career SBs...

Yeah, I don't think there's much question.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:52:33 PM
... but while Jr. is ~ 40 lbs heavier, I'd wager his body fat% is much lower then that of his old man and in much better shape. Sr. played 12 or 13 years in the bigs and I see no reason why Jr. can't exceed that.

Well, without wanting to wager on a guy's body fat I'd point out that Cecil Fielder only played 12 or 13 seasons in the big Leagues if you're planning on counting 30 games as a "season". Cecil played 1470 games in the bigs, Prince is already at 998.

But the issue shouldn't really be about how long he's willing to drag his carcass out there. Cecil Fielder hung on in his declining years, never having an all-star calibre season after the age of 27. The issue is decline, not durability and Cecil's value didn't just decline, it drove off a cliff.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:53:43 PM

I'm sorry, I blacked out there for a second. Did someone just try to use Prince Fielder's stolen base totals to prove a point?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
... but while Jr. is ~ 40 lbs heavier, I'd wager his body fat% is much lower then that of his old man and in much better shape. Sr. played 12 or 13 years in the bigs and I see no reason why Jr. can't exceed that.

Well, without wanting to wager on a guy's body fat I'd point out that Cecil Fielder only played 12 or 13 seasons in the big Leagues if you're planning on counting 30 games as a "season". Cecil played 1470 games in the bigs, Prince is already at 998.

But the issue shouldn't really be about how long he's willing to drag his carcass out there. Cecil Fielder hung on in his declining years, never having an all-star calibre season after the age of 27. The issue is decline, not durability and Cecil's value didn't just decline, it drove off a cliff.

... and it would be Epstein's (or any other GM's job) t chart where that cliff might be. If there's a 3 year plan and the cliff is projected to be at 5 or more years, what's the issue?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 01:56:25 PM

I'm sorry, I blacked out there for a second. Did someone just try to use Prince Fielder's stolen base totals to prove a point?

Yes. I'm just thinking Jr. might be the better athlete of the two. Crazy eh?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:57:15 PM
... and it would be Epstein's (or any other GM's job) t chart where that cliff might be. If there's a 3 year plan and the cliff is projected to be at 5 or more years, what's the issue?

Because that projection, in light of what tends to happen to overweight athletes in their 30's, is loopy. I'm discussing the wisdom of signing Prince Fielder to a long-term deal here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 01:58:03 PM
Yes. I'm just thinking Jr. might be the better athlete of the two. Crazy eh?

Yeah, but I'm used to it at this point.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:00:21 PM
... and it would be Epstein's (or any other GM's job) t chart where that cliff might be. If there's a 3 year plan and the cliff is projected to be at 5 or more years, what's the issue?

Because that projection, in light of what tends to happen to overweight athletes in their 30's, is loopy. I'm discussing the wisdom of signing Prince Fielder to a long-term deal here.

God I love discussions about two completely different things.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:00:46 PM
Yes. I'm just thinking Jr. might be the better athlete of the two. Crazy eh?

Yeah, but I'm used to it at this point.

Oh good.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:03:29 PM
God I love discussions about two completely different things.

We're not discussing whether or not Theo Epstein, smart Baseball GM, is inclined to offer a long term contract to Prince Fielder? Is this one of your patented mid-stream shifts? Are you going to say you were always talking about signing Pujols? Or the late period work of Truffaut?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:09:32 PM
God I love discussions about two completely different things.

We're not discussing whether or not Theo Epstein, smart Baseball GM, is inclined to offer a long term contract to Prince Fielder? Is this one of your patented mid-stream shifts? Are you going to say you were always talking about signing Pujols? Or the late period work of Truffaut?

Nice... and full of class as usual. I guess I was talking about giving Fielder A-Rod money on a shorter term deal as opposed to something less for longer.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:15:48 PM
I guess I was talking about giving Fielder A-Rod money on a shorter term deal as opposed to something less for longer.

Yes, well, clear as that was I think it drives home my original point. Epstein taking over the Cubs probably makes them less likely to throw around bad long-term contracts which is what Fielder's would be and what he's almost certainly looking for.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:18:37 PM
I guess I was talking about giving Fielder A-Rod money on a shorter term deal as opposed to something less for longer.

Yes, well, clear as that was I think it drives home my original point. Epstein taking over the Cubs probably makes them less likely to throw around bad long-term contracts which is what Fielder's would be and what he's almost certainly looking for.

Certainly? I don't know. If Epstein says to Fielder, "all right 4 years max, and you fill in the zeros, he might take a look I think."
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:22:21 PM
Certainly? I don't know. If Epstein says to Fielder, "all right 4 years max, and you fill in the zeros, he might take a look I think."

1. That's still risky because, as mentioned, you're still almost certainly signing him for his decline phase. He's a minus defender so he needs to be hitting a ton to be valuable.

2. Almost certainly comes from just about every single contract a premium UFA has signed in the last 15 years. Jayson Werth got a 7 year deal, for Xenu's sake.

3. And to tie it all together, that's a perfect example of why Fielder doesn't make sense for them. A long term deal doesn't make sense for Fielder, a short term deal doesn't make sense for the Cubs. The Cubs aren't close. They lost 91 games this year. They don't have a well regarded farm system. Getting a couple years of Fielder at an insane price tag doesn't really do anything for them.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:26:36 PM
Certainly? I don't know. If Epstein says to Fielder, "all right 4 years max, and you fill in the zeros, he might take a look I think."

1. That's still risky because, as mentioned, you're still almost certainly signing him for his decline phase. He's a minus defender so he needs to be hitting a ton to be valuable.

2. Almost certainly comes from just about every single contract a premium UFA has signed in the last 15 years. Jayson Werth got a 7 year deal, for Xenu's sake.

... But Werth surely didn't get close to what Fielder will per annum. That (as you know) is the key difference here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:31:55 PM
... But Werth surely didn't get close to what Fielder will per annum. That (as you know) is the key difference here.

No, it's really not. Fielder will be looking for money and term. In the range of a Teixeira/Gonzalez deal. Even a 4 year deal at 30 million per would leave 60 million dollars on the table compared to Teixeira, 34 million compared to Gonzalez.

Like I said in the edit to my last post. A short term deal does nothing for the Cubs. It adds a hitter entering the decline phase for a few years to a lousy club that needs a serious overhaul.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:36:47 PM
... But Werth surely didn't get close to what Fielder will per annum. That (as you know) is the key difference here.

No, it's really not. Fielder will be looking for money and term. In the range of a Teixeira/Gonzalez deal. Even a 4 year deal at 30 million per would leave 60 million dollars on the table compared to Teixeira, 34 million compared to Gonzalez.

Like I said in the edit to my last post. A short term deal does nothing for the Cubs. It adds a hitter entering the decline phase for a few years to a lousy club that needs a serious overhaul.

Are the Cubs much further away then the Jays? There are a lot of folks who believe Fielder would be a good fit here.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 13, 2011, 02:38:03 PM
Like I said in the edit to my last post. A short term deal does nothing for the Cubs. It adds a hitter entering the decline phase for a few years to a lousy club that needs a serious overhaul.

And costs them a 2nd round pick, which, considering the less than impressive state of their farm system, is not something they should be doing for short-term fixes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:41:12 PM
As a side, I'm really enjoying watching the Red Sox implode.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:41:45 PM
Are the Cubs much further away then the Jays?

I think so. They lost 91 games this year, their farm system isn't highly regarded and they're probably going to walk away from Aramis Ramirez.

/
 There are a lot of folks who believe Fielder would be a good fit here.

I can't answer for them but part of that probably has more to do with how little the team got from Lind as opposed to how great Fielder is.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:44:20 PM
Are the Cubs much further away then the Jays?

I think so. They lost 91 games this year, their farm system isn't highly regarded and they're probably going to walk away from Aramis Ramirez.

/
 There are a lot of folks who believe Fielder would be a good fit here.

I can't answer for them but part of that probably has more to do with how little the team got from Lind as opposed to how great Fielder is.

Really? I though Lind played "B" or "B-" ball for us this year. Good but not great.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 13, 2011, 02:47:02 PM
Really? I though Lind played "B" or "B-" ball for us this year. Good but not great.

His WAR of 0.7 is really run-of-the-mill, and very disappointing for a middle of the order bat.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
Really? I though Lind played "B" or "B-" ball for us this year. Good but not great.

His WAR of 0.7 is really run-of-the-mill, and very disappointing for a middle of the order bat.

Hey, he doesn't decide where he hits.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:50:21 PM
Really? I though Lind played "B" or "B-" ball for us this year. Good but not great.

BR has his WAR at .7. Fangraphs has him even lower at .5. That's barely above replacement.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 13, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
Really? I though Lind played "B" or "B-" ball for us this year. Good but not great.

BR has his WAR at .7. Fangraphs has him even lower at .5. That's barely above replacement.

That is rather ordinary. Yes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 13, 2011, 02:53:23 PM
Hey, he doesn't decide where he hits.

It's not exactly stellar for an every day player, regardless of where he hits in the line-up either. I mean, Jose Molina had a WAR of 1.0 as the backup catcher. Johnny Mac as a bench player - 0.8. Heck, even Kelly Johnson was at 0.9 in the less than 2 months he was with the team. If he was a bench bat, then, sure, 0.7 is fine, but, for an every day guy that's supposed to be a major contributor . . . between his OPS of 95 and his WAR - B or B- ball is being awfully generous. He wasn't a complete failure, but, he was decidedly mediocre.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:54:01 PM
For a little context, using BR's WAR, Lind contributed as much value to the team as Jesse Litsch this year and a little less than Kelly Johnson did in 30 or so games.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 02:56:19 PM
It's not exactly stellar for an every day player, regardless of where he hits in the line-up either. I mean, Jose Molina had a WAR of 1.0 as the backup catcher. Johnny Mac as a bench player - 0.8. Heck, even Kelly Johnson was at 0.9 in the less than 2 months he was with the team. If he was a bench bat, then, sure, 0.7 is fine, but, for an every day guy that's supposed to be a major contributor . . . between his OPS of 95 and his WAR - B or B- ball is being awfully generous. He wasn't a complete failure, but, he was decidedly mediocre.

I'd be a little harsher than that. Having a sub .300 OBP is pretty awful for an every day player regardless of position.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 13, 2011, 02:57:35 PM
I'd be a little harsher than that. Having a sub .300 OBP is pretty awful for an every day player regardless of position.

True, but an OPS+ of 95 is only slightly below average, so, I figured I'd split the difference and give him a mediocre.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2011, 03:03:19 PM
True, but an OPS+ of 95 is only slightly below average, so, I figured I'd split the difference and give him a mediocre.

But that's the problem with OPS. SLG is important but OBP is the more important metric.

Anyways, the real issue with Lind is that, using BR, his WAR is half defense. His OWar is .4 which is pretty tragic. That's barely higher than what Mike McCoy contributed with the bat.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 14, 2011, 10:18:44 PM
Tough luck for Zack Greinke. Three errors lead to three unearned runs, 5-1 Cardinals after 6. Looks like game 6 will be up to Mr. October - Shaun Marcum. :o

Edit: Milwaukee has had its chances. After doubling in the first, Ryan Braun has gone 0-3, leaving 6 men on base.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 15, 2011, 09:21:01 PM
Scherzer completely fell apart after getting the first out in the third inning tonight. Three runs later, he was yanked with the bases loaded. Not the kind of pitching the Tigers need if they want to win this series.

Edit: 9 runs later, this game and series are likely over - 9-2 Rangers. Michael Young has had a terrible playoff, but had two two-run doubles in that inning.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on October 15, 2011, 11:18:56 PM
15-4 rangers now
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 16, 2011, 02:38:58 AM
Texas Rangers crowned ALCS winners after walloping the Tigers 15-5, and a 4 games to 2 series triumph.  Rangers' Cruz was named ALCS MVP.

Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 16, 2011, 12:44:39 PM
I'd really like to see the Brewers vs. the Rangers... Two franchises battling over a championship which neither have one. - Rangers 0 for 2, Brewers 0 for 1.   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 16, 2011, 08:35:24 PM
Not looking good for the Brewers already after half an inning. Former Jay Shaun Marcum continues his playoff choke job by giving up four runs in the top of the first. He has been absolutely terrible in the playoffs, with a 12.46 ERA coming into today.

Corey Hart homered to lead off the bottom half for the Brewers, but it is still 4-1 after 1.

Edit: Wow - Narveson comes out to start the 2nd for Milwaukee. How are the Brewers liking that Lawrie trade now?

Edit2: After the Brewers got back to 5-4 after 2, the pitching blew it again - Narveson and Hawkins combined to give up another 4 runs, and it is 9-4 now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 17, 2011, 07:05:44 AM
Cardinals finish off the Brewers 12-8 to win the NLCS 4 games to 2.  St. Louis' home-grown talent David Freese was NLCS MVP.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 17, 2011, 07:10:03 AM
World Series begins Wed. Oct. 18, with the St. Louis Cardinals and the Texas Rangers, in St.Louis.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 17, 2011, 08:58:01 AM
Go Rangers! - I'd just like to see them get one.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 17, 2011, 11:00:26 AM

Pretty disappointing WS matchup. The Rangers are a pretty good team but it sure doesn't feel like the best team in the league this year are going to be the WS champs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 18, 2011, 05:10:57 PM
11th vs 13th highest payroll in the WS... I suppose that's good news for the smaller markets.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 18, 2011, 05:19:16 PM
11th vs 13th highest payroll in the WS... I suppose that's good news for the smaller markets.

I think with what the Rays/D-Backs did this year the idea that small payroll teams can't compete in MLB is pretty well dead and buried.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 18, 2011, 05:24:04 PM
11th vs 13th highest payroll in the WS... I suppose that's good news for the smaller markets.

I think with what the Rays/D-Backs did this year the idea that small payroll teams can't compete in MLB is pretty well dead and buried.

Yup. Though with that said, I'd much rather the Jays @ 90-100 mil. than 60 or less.  :-\
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 18, 2011, 05:29:54 PM
Yup. Though with that said, I'd much rather the Jays @ 90-100 mil. than 60 or less.  :-\

Yeah, but you wonder with the Rays. Would they have been better off if they had the payroll room to re-sign Carl Crawford? Obviously a bigger payroll gives you a greater margin for error but I think a decent argument could be made that there are advantages to the low payroll in terms of forcing a team to be creative.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on October 20, 2011, 09:57:42 PM
If the Jays somehow made it to the World Series, do you think MLB would require them to play God Bless America during home games?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on October 20, 2011, 09:59:32 PM
If the Jays somehow made it to the World Series, do you think MLB would require them to play God Bless America during home games?

They don't during the regular season, I'd imagine that would carry over to the playoffs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on October 21, 2011, 07:44:05 AM
Big comeback win for the Rangers.

Interestingly, the Yahoo sports recap noted that the comeback came against the "vaunted" St. Louis bullpen. This was the same bullpen that was 2nd in the majors with 26 blown saves, so maybe not vaunted for the reasons they think.

It is good to have the series tied going back to Texas. I would quickly lose interest if it was another one-sided affair.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 23, 2011, 04:47:14 AM
St.Louis walloped Texas 16-7 in Game 3, taking a 2 to 1 Series lead,  led by the heroics of the Cardinals' Albert Pujols, the 'goat' for the team's previous loss at home to the Rangers Thursday night.

Pujols three home runs tied him with two others -- Reggie Jackson and Babe Ruth -- to ever accomplish the feat in a World Series.

For more: http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/22/davidi_game3/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/22/davidi_game3/)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 23, 2011, 02:53:41 PM
I'm reading various reports that the Red Sox may be trying to make a trade with the Jays... the man they may want in return? Manager John Farrell. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 23, 2011, 03:11:22 PM
I'm reading various reports that the Red Sox may be trying to make a trade with the Jays... the man they may want in return? Manager John Farrell.

There's also been reports that they don't want to go back down the compensation route after the issues they had with the Epstein to the Cubs thing.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 23, 2011, 03:15:00 PM
I'm reading various reports that the Red Sox may be trying to make a trade with the Jays... the man they may want in return? Manager John Farrell.

There's also been reports that they don't want to go back down the compensation route after the issues they had with the Epstein to the Cubs thing.

3-Way?
To Toronto: Something from the Cubs
To Boston: Farrell
To Chicago: Epstein

 :D Now that would be something!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: TML fan on October 23, 2011, 03:31:17 PM
I'm reading various reports that the Red Sox may be trying to make a trade with the Jays... the man they may want in return? Manager John Farrell.

Maybe they're trying to give us Crawford  :P
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 26, 2011, 06:57:41 AM
Rangers defeated the Cardinals Monday night by a score of 4-2, thus, taking a 3 games to 2 Series lead.

Mike Napoli lead Texas with his 9th RBI (team totals=10), no doubt in the lead for MVP honours, should Rangers win the Series, which could come as early as Wednesday night, in Game 6, in St.Louis.

Unless the Cardinals shore up and LaRussa makes some sensible decisions, all does not bode too well for St. Louis.

Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 26, 2011, 07:03:42 AM
On the Farrell situation....

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/25/grange_farrell/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/25/grange_farrell/)

"Due to the distraction caused by media speculation regarding our employee permission policy, the Toronto Blue Jays have amended their policy and will not grant permission for lateral moves," read a statement signed by Blue Jays president and chief executive officer Paul Beeston as well as Anthopoulos.

How real was the threat of Farrell leaving for Boston? We may never know...

...the announcement Tuesday was essential for the Blue Jays going forward as they continue a long, slow battle to make their fans believe in their organization again.

The possibility of losing right-hand man and assistant general manager Tony LaCava to the Baltimore Orioles was one thing. Not ideal, but it represents a promotion for a long-serving company man.

But if the Jays are going to succeed they can't concede any advantage to Boston or New York casually.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 26, 2011, 07:11:12 AM
More...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/24/davidi__on_farrell/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/24/davidi__on_farrell/)

Farrell..."I am focused right now on preparing for what is best for the Blue Jays in 2012."

"I think the way to look at it is as a compliment," said Bautista. "If a team like that is interested in quote unquote taking him away from us, it should be a compliment that you have a good manager. Hopefully heíll stay on board with us.

Two weeks ago, Anthopoulos said in an interview that losing LaCava would "sting" because "we canít replace him."

"Iíd love to sit here and tell you that we can," he continued, "but itís just too young a front office, too inexperienced, myself included, to replace what he brings because heís the total package."

Already faced with losing LaCava, the sense of uncertainty with Farrell threatens to turn one of the Blue Jaysí prime assets this off-season, organizational stability, into a liability.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on October 26, 2011, 09:16:54 PM
I don't get this Farrell thing.

If the Sox want him, and are willing to pay (whatever that may be, cash/prospects whatever) then it would benefit our team.

I like him. He seems to be a good coach and the players like him but there seem to be a decent number of coaches available.

I'd look into Francona if Farrell was leaving. He'd have extra incentive to do well after his recent dismissal, especially against Boston (although maybe the Sox roster would have extra incentive to do well against him, hmmmm...).
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Newbury on October 26, 2011, 10:26:26 PM
I don't get this Farrell thing.

If the Sox want him, and are willing to pay (whatever that may be, cash/prospects whatever) then it would benefit our team.

I like him. He seems to be a good coach and the players like him but there seem to be a decent number of coaches available.

I'd look into Francona if Farrell was leaving. He'd have extra incentive to do well after his recent dismissal, especially against Boston (although maybe the Sox roster would have extra incentive to do well against him, hmmmm...).

I don't know. As a GM trying to build a winner, I wouldn't want a team like the Red Sox to be able to poach away my manager after just one year of him being there. Why you would let your current manager go to a division rival is beyond me.

I like the fact they took a stance.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Captain Canuck on October 26, 2011, 11:41:22 PM
Oh don't worry the Beantown rumour mongers are in overdrive now!
It seems the Herald is trying to keep up with the Globe as they've came out with a story that the Jays "will not rule out" taking a run at Ortiz this offseason!   ::)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on October 27, 2011, 03:57:36 PM
I don't get this Farrell thing.

If the Sox want him, and are willing to pay (whatever that may be, cash/prospects whatever) then it would benefit our team.

I like him. He seems to be a good coach and the players like him but there seem to be a decent number of coaches available.

I'd look into Francona if Farrell was leaving. He'd have extra incentive to do well after his recent dismissal, especially against Boston (although maybe the Sox roster would have extra incentive to do well against him, hmmmm...).

I don't know. As a GM trying to build a winner, I wouldn't want a team like the Red Sox to be able to poach away my manager after just one year of him being there. Why you would let your current manager go to a division rival is beyond me.

I like the fact they took a stance.

Yeah if there's one thing I learned from Moneyball it's that the coach is among the most important people in determining wins and losses.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: leafs_fan89 on October 27, 2011, 07:39:10 PM
Go rangers Go
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 28, 2011, 12:25:02 AM
Cards refusing to lose tonight. If they win tonight, I'd say they probably win game 7 as well.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on October 28, 2011, 12:25:53 AM
Anyone watching this game?  It's awesome.

Rangers were up 7-5.  Cards tied it.  In extras now, Rangers went up 9-7 on a Hamilton HR.  Cards were down to their last out and Berkman singled in the tying run.

Going into the 11th now: 9-9.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on October 28, 2011, 12:32:30 AM
This game is incredible. The last month has been epic for baseball. Wow.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on October 28, 2011, 12:41:31 AM
Cards walk-off in the 11th with a HR.

Wow.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 28, 2011, 12:44:09 AM
Cards walk-off in the 11th with a HR.

Wow.

Freese coming through in the clutch for the Cards tonight. Tying RBIs in the 9th, walk off HR in the 11th. Huge emotional lift for the Red Birds and a huge letdown for the Rangers.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 28, 2011, 12:58:14 AM

That was an entertaining game. Sloppy as all get out. Like, guys doing things I couldn't have gotten away with in little league kind of sloppy. but entertaining all the same.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Captain Canuck on October 28, 2011, 01:19:41 AM
1 strike away from winning the World Series TWICE and Texas doesn't get it done. Cruz is going to lie awake all night thinking about that fly ball. Pure agony for the Rangers and their fans, but great game to watch for everyone else.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on October 28, 2011, 01:54:24 AM
First time in WS history that a team has scored in the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, amazing.

To do it coming back each time, remarkable.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 28, 2011, 07:52:08 AM
What a comeback for the Cardinals!!  And what an entertaining baseball game that was!

Did anyone notice the "Blue Jay.com" advertising on the rotational ad sign behind home plate, for all the world to see?  That was nice!
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 28, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
Did anyone notice the "Blue Jay.com" advertising on the rotational ad sign behind home plate, for all the world to see?  That was nice!

That's a digital ad that each broadcaster can display differently to their target audience.  Nobody in the US saw Blue Jays advertising there.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on October 28, 2011, 08:54:21 AM
That was likely the most entertaining baseball game I have ever watched.  Just incredible.  To be 1 strike away from a championship not once, but twice.  Seeing the emotion Nolan Ryan and his group were going through was pretty intense.  On pins and needles ready to explode in celebration to pure heartbreak.  If that were the Jays, I don't know how I would have reacted. 

Now, is there any way St. Louis doesn't win tonight?  They have all the momentum in the world while Texas is crushed, and they just seem like a team who destiny may be dictating should win it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 28, 2011, 09:37:13 AM
I fell asleep and missed the drama.  :(
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 28, 2011, 10:55:18 AM
Did anyone notice the "Blue Jay.com"
advertising on the rotational ad sign behind home plate, for all the
 world to see?  That was nice!

That's a digital ad that each broadcaster can display differently to
 their target audience.  Nobody in the US saw Blue Jays
advertising there.


Thanks for clarifying.  Didn't know about the digital advertising for each broadcaster.  I wonder how many people in general know this.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: You're right on October 28, 2011, 11:28:34 AM
Did anyone notice the "Blue Jay.com"
advertising on the rotational ad sign behind home plate, for all the
 world to see?  That was nice!

That's a digital ad that each broadcaster can display differently to
 their target audience.  Nobody in the US saw Blue Jays
advertising there.


Thanks for clarifying.  Didn't know about the digital advertising for each broadcaster.  I wonder how many people in general know this.
I've actually noticed it from time to time on hockey highlites - the ads appear on the glass behind the net.

Edit: Looked it up - http://www.sportvision.com/pvi-sports.html (http://www.sportvision.com/pvi-sports.html)

If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that none of the athletes are real either - it's all computer generated! ;D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on October 28, 2011, 07:42:24 PM
Did anyone notice the "Blue Jay.com" advertising on the rotational ad sign behind home plate, for all the world to see?  That was nice!

That's a digital ad that each broadcaster can display differently to their target audience.  Nobody in the US saw Blue Jays advertising there.

Folks watching the Fox broadcast are seeing a heavy rotation of ads for Fox programming. That's why Sportsnet is using the MLB International feed rather than the Fox feed for the WS.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: lamajama on October 28, 2011, 11:45:16 PM
Bud Selig has all the charisma of a limp noodle.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 29, 2011, 12:16:33 AM
Bud Selig has all the charisma of a limp noodle.

I know. He'd make the worst stage magician.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on October 29, 2011, 12:40:05 AM
Bud Selig has all the charisma of a limp noodle.

I know. He'd make the worst stage magician.

His future is clearly not in replacing Pat Sajak as the new host of Wheel of Fortune.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on October 29, 2011, 08:05:16 AM
Good to see a former Blur Jay (Chris Carpenter) win a World Series with St.Louis.  (Too bad Roy Halladay hasn't had his chance yet).

The Rangers' pitching completely broke down, so to speak, with ball control trouble.  Those walks just about put the game away for good, giving the Cardinals all the impetus they needed to seal the win.

Call the Cardinals the wild card comeback team of 2011!

Well done!

Note:  MVP David Freese's 21 RBIs shatter a MLB record.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on October 29, 2011, 08:32:29 AM
That was Carpenter's second World Series with St. Louis.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on October 29, 2011, 10:38:54 AM
That was Carpenter's second World Series with St. Louis.

It's amazing how dominant he turned out to be, considering the severity of his injury at the time. Kudos to him, he always had a nasty arsenal.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 29, 2011, 10:55:36 AM
That was Carpenter's second World Series with St. Louis.

And considering the circumstances under which he left the club I don't know why a Blue Jays fan would be overly inclined to cheer him on to anything.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on October 29, 2011, 12:21:52 PM
That was Carpenter's second World Series with St. Louis.

And considering the circumstances under which he left the club I don't know why a Blue Jays fan would be overly inclined to cheer him on to anything.

non-sequitor?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on October 31, 2011, 02:55:10 PM
Tony LaRussa is leaving a champion as he announced his retirement today. 
Title: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on October 31, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=7175711

CC Sabathia agrees to a new five year deal with the Yankees.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on October 31, 2011, 08:28:38 PM
Imagine opting out of a $92 million contract, and doing so because it's a smart move to make more money?  Crazy.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 31, 2011, 08:33:28 PM

It's a big deal but it's not as big a raise as I almost expected. In a pitching starved market Sabathia only got an extra year and a raise of 1.4 million per over his old deal.
Title: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on October 31, 2011, 09:00:44 PM

It's a big deal but it's not as big a raise as I almost expected. In a pitching starved market Sabathia only got an extra year and a raise of 1.4 million per over his old deal.

1 extra year and another if he stays healthy, it's only 1.4 per season but it's another guaranteed 30 million and if the final year kicks in, it's an additional 50.

I'm not sure he could have gotten a deal like that in 4 years, who know what he would have got on the open market though.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on October 31, 2011, 09:05:39 PM
1 extra year and another if he stays healthy, it's only 1.4 per season but it's another guaranteed 30 million and if the final year kicks in, it's an additional 50.

I'm not sure he could have gotten a deal like that in 4 years, who know what he would have got on the open market though.

I'm not trying to pass the hat for him or anything. Just saying that he very well could have gotten more on the open market.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on October 31, 2011, 09:42:13 PM
No surprises but;

"The Toronto Blue Jays have exercised the 2012 option on infielder Edwin Encarnacion for $3.5 million, the club announced on Monday.

The Jays also announced the 2012 option on pitcher Jon Rauch has been declined."

More;

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/31/jays_moves/

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 01, 2011, 10:52:24 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Tony-LaCava-Baltimore-Orioles-GM-search-Toronto-Blue-Jays-110111

Quote
Blue Jays assistant general manager Tony LaCava turned down the Oriolesí offer to become their GM on Tuesday, according to major-league sources.

Interesting that he'd rather remain an assistant with the Jays than GM with the O's. Sad statement on the state of affairs in Baltimore, but good for the Jays.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 01, 2011, 10:57:31 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Tony-LaCava-Baltimore-Orioles-GM-search-Toronto-Blue-Jays-110111

Quote
Blue Jays assistant general manager Tony LaCava turned down the Oriolesí offer to become their GM on Tuesday, according to major-league sources.

Interesting that he'd rather remain an assistant with the Jays than GM with the O's. Sad statement on the state of affairs in Baltimore, but good for the Jays.

Huge for the Jays.  It completely changes the drafting philosophy when you have LaCava poaching half the Latin American talent.  You can draft more aggressively if you know that you have a half dozen good prospects for free.

Aside from that I'm not sure what to think on the "guarantee Encarnacion at bats" philosophy again.  He was terrible for the first half of last year and they kept playing him because they promised him at bats.  He really hadn't done anything in his career to earn that kind of promise, and I'm not sure that he should be gifted at bats based on a half-season of strong play.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 01, 2011, 11:01:47 PM
Aside from that I'm not sure what to think on the "guarantee Encarnacion at bats" philosophy again.  He was terrible for the first half of last year and they kept playing him because they promised him at bats.  He really hadn't done anything in his career to earn that kind of promise, and I'm not sure that he should be gifted at bats based on a half-season of strong play.

Well, if his splits from last season are any indication, as long as he doesn't have to play in the field at all, he should be a fairly productive bat earlier in the season. Fortunately, with Lawrie around, there's no reason to play him at 3B, and if the Jays can upgrade on Lind at 1B, there's no reason to put Encarnacion in the field at all.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 01, 2011, 11:19:10 PM
Aside from that I'm not sure what to think on the "guarantee Encarnacion at bats" philosophy again.  He was terrible for the first half of last year and they kept playing him because they promised him at bats.  He really hadn't done anything in his career to earn that kind of promise, and I'm not sure that he should be gifted at bats based on a half-season of strong play.

Well, if his splits from last season are any indication, as long as he doesn't have to play in the field at all, he should be a fairly productive bat earlier in the season. Fortunately, with Lawrie around, there's no reason to play him at 3B, and if the Jays can upgrade on Lind at 1B, there's no reason to put Encarnacion in the field at all.

I'm not sure if it was in that article, but I read one where AA talked about him playing in LF, 1B, and DH.

EDIT:

Quote
"As we sit here today, the role would primarily be DH but we like he can play some first, play some third and we'd like to find out a little bit more about him in left field."
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 01, 2011, 11:21:55 PM
I'm not sure if it was in that article, but I read one where AA talked about him playing in LF, 1B, and DH.

EDIT:

Quote
"As we sit here today, the role would primarily be DH but we like he can play some first, play some third and we'd like to find out a little bit more about him in left field."

Yeah, I know. He'll be sort of a DH-utility guy, but, primarily DH, which is what's important. His numbers as a DH last season were pretty good. So, if he's in the field for 1 game a week or something like that? Oh well.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 01, 2011, 11:24:27 PM
I'm not sure if it was in that article, but I read one where AA talked about him playing in LF, 1B, and DH.

EDIT:

Quote
"As we sit here today, the role would primarily be DH but we like he can play some first, play some third and we'd like to find out a little bit more about him in left field."

Yeah, I know. He'll be sort of a DH-utility guy, but, primarily DH, which is what's important. His numbers as a DH last season were pretty good. So, if he's in the field for 1 game a week or something like that? Oh well.

Yeah I guess.  It would be great if he could put up 25-30 homers and 40 doubles. 

It hopefully puts to rest the Big Papi as a possible destination spot for the Jays.  He would make them a better team, but they need to upgrade 1B, not the DH position.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 01, 2011, 11:40:03 PM
It hopefully puts to rest the Big Papi as a possible destination spot for the Jays.  He would make them a better team, but they need to upgrade 1B, not the DH position.

Yeah. At best, Ortiz should only be considered if all other avenues to improve the offence fail - and, if the Sox offer him arbitration, there's no way the Jays go after him. AA won't sacrifice a draft pick for a short-term addition.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 01, 2011, 11:55:59 PM
And considering the circumstances under which he left the club I don't know why a Blue Jays fan would be overly inclined to cheer him on to anything.
 

And considering that you are a Torontonian baseball fan sounding negative and rather contrite  in this conversational circumstance is beyond comprehension.

I will always like to say, that's a former Blue Jay.
 
Carpenter was afterall a highly touted draft pick of the Jays back in '93.  While he didn't collect his first foray
into the Major leagues until 1997, and stayed a Jay until
 2002, with a less than stellar overall  pitching record,
his injured shoulder & all, who could blame him for
wanting to test the free agent market?  True he refused
the minor league asignment given him by Ricciardi at the
 time, including the league minimum of $300,000
(Carpenter  wanted $500,000 in which the Jays refused his pay demands), and thus, he left.

 Ricciardi at that time.  was in the process of paring
down both the roster and  salaries. 

Besides, as Blue Jay fans, the comparison between
Ricciardi and Anthropoulos quite different, to say the
least.  Who is to that if it had been today, Chris
Carpenter would have left under slightly different
circumstances.

Like I said before, the Jays drafted him, and are the club responsible for giving him his first opportunity into the
Major League.  I'm still glad that a former Blue Jay who
practically grew up together as a young player with
another Blue Jay,  (Roy Halladay), won the World Series.

With all due apologies (sic), if it bothers you so much.     
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on November 02, 2011, 02:14:03 AM
I was reading this article about Chris Carpenter (http://www.unionleader.com/article/20111030/NEWS15/710309957) and toward the end it made mention of Colby Rasmus getting a world series ring. Seems weird to me. I don't think he deserves one. Does this make sense to anyone else?
 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 02, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
So heading in to free agency (and knowing that Japanese pitchers seem to often not work out) I think Yu Darvish could be quite the addition. Here's a little vid for those who haven't actually seen him pitch... Man, he's got sick stuff;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLGB69siot8   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 02, 2011, 09:28:15 AM
A great piece when consider Ortiz for the Jays;

http://jaysjournal.com/2011/10/18/david-ortiz-on-the-2012-blue-jays-a-realistic-option/

"for the critics or those skeptical to cite career numbers, Ortiz has had an OPS of at least 1.091 at Rogers Centre in each of the last two seasons, at least .933 at Fenway, and .913 at Yankee Stadium."  :o

I mean sure, it could be s  "Thomas" situation and his numbers fall right off a cliff but man, these (among some others noted in the piece) are some pretty staggering numbers to consider. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on November 02, 2011, 10:36:09 AM
Quote
"As we sit here today, the role would primarily be DH but we like he can play some first, play some third and we'd like to find out a little bit more about him in left field."

I found this tidbit that Encarnacion may play a bit in left field quite intriguing.  I couldn't help but think that Snider and/or Thames may not be with the team come spring training. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 02, 2011, 12:34:45 PM
And considering that you are a Torontonian baseball fan sounding negative and rather contrite  in this conversational circumstance is beyond comprehension.

You need to learn what words mean.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 02, 2011, 12:41:09 PM
I was reading this article about Chris Carpenter (http://www.unionleader.com/article/20111030/NEWS15/710309957) and toward the end it made mention of Colby Rasmus getting a world series ring. Seems weird to me. I don't think he deserves one. Does this make sense to anyone else?

It's a pretty long standing tradition that players on a world series winning team, or any playoff team, will vote as to whether or not guys who played part of the season with the team get a share of the playoff money or a half-share or quarter-share or what have you.

Given that Rasmus started 87 games for the Cards, and played well for them, it seems pretty reasonable that they'd consider him a reason they made it into the playoffs and deserving of a cut.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules when it comes to World Series rings and who gets them, I'm pretty sure that's up to the individual team, but if they're just giving rings to everyone who gets a full share then that makes a degree of sense.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 02, 2011, 12:46:06 PM
Bengie Molina was a fun case last year. Having played for both the Rangers and Giants, he was getting a ring regardless. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 02, 2011, 12:49:59 PM
Yeah, I know. He'll be sort of a DH-utility guy, but, primarily DH, which is what's important. His numbers as a DH last season were pretty good. So, if he's in the field for 1 game a week or something like that? Oh well.

I'd be a little careful though about chalking up his performance to not playing in the field. It was such a drastic split in the first and second half split for him which coincided with him getting bumped off 3rd that I think you'd need more than one year of evidence to say that he was hampered offensively by his defensive responsibilities.

On the other hand, he has three years in a row of pretty drastic first and second half splits so I think the Jays probably still need to look at him as an option, rather than a surefire everyday player.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 02, 2011, 03:20:18 PM
Once again cementing their value as an award and demonstrating their irrefutable accuracy in measuring defensive proficiency, Rawlings today announced that Derek Jeter was award the Gold Glove at shortstop for the 2011 season - in spite of his -1.3 dWAR, his -6.5 UZR and his many other well below average defensive metrics.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 02, 2011, 03:45:06 PM
And considering that you are a Torontonian baseball fan sounding negative and rather contrite  in this conversational circumstance is beyond comprehension.


You need to learn what words mean.


I don't need to learn anything.  I am very good in conversations with people (outside of using a keyboard).  I feel somewhat 'constricted' when using a keyboard whereas I find conversations flow with more fluidity in person.

Of course, if I had to write/type a shirt story, I obviously wouldn't have much of a problem.  Which is exactly what I did once to receive a top prize in a local ss competition.  Certainly not bad for someone who "needs to learn what words mean".
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on November 02, 2011, 04:11:36 PM
Mike Quade's not going to be back to manage the Cubs next year. 

Is it a foregone conclusion that Francona takes over?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Bullfrog on November 02, 2011, 04:12:35 PM
May I butt in with some observations?

Your use of "contrite" does not make sense. I'm not sure the word means what you think it means. Additionally, the long, polysyllabic, non-rhythmical, alliterative phrase is difficult to read (irony intended.) I surely hope you don't speak like that in common conversations. Perhaps it's your sense of keyboard constriction that makes you unconsciously use unnecessarily complex words and sentence structure.

This website provides some advice on speaking concisely:
http://www.plainlanguage.gov/howto/wordsuggestions/complexabstract.cfm

additionally, a list of simple words and phrases to use as substitutes can be handy:
http://www.plainlanguage.gov/howto/wordsuggestions/simplewords.cfm

We all need to learn.

The above provided with sincerest intent (i.e. not to be an ass.)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 02, 2011, 04:23:43 PM
Mike Quade's not going to be back to manage the Cubs next year. 

Is it a foregone conclusion that Francona takes over?

Pretty close to, I think.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 02, 2011, 04:32:44 PM
May I butt in with some observations?

Your use of "contrite" does not make sense. I'm not sure the word means what you think it means. Additionally, the long, polysyllabic, non-rhythmical, alliterative phrase is difficult to read
(irony intended.) I surely hope you don't speak like that in
common conversations. Perhaps it's your sense of keyboard
constriction that makes you unconsciously use unnecessarily
complex words and sentence structure.

This website provides some advice on speaking concisely:

http://www.plainlanguage.gov/howto/wordsuggestions/complexa
bstract.cfm

additionally, a list of simple words and phrases to use as substitutes can be handy:

http://www.plainlanguage.gov/howto/wordsuggestions/simplewords.cfm

We all need to learn.

The above provided with sincerest intent (i.e. not to be an ass.)


Don't worry Bullfrog, I do speak much better in person.  It's just
 that some people (like Nik) have a tendency to put thenselves on this self-righteous pedestal and make one feel as if they've said something so wrong (based on a conversational topic), especially to something said that he takes objection to.

I'm not used to people who are like him, I guess.  Something I need to learn.   :)

He also needs to learn to be better, too.   ::)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 02, 2011, 06:15:09 PM
Of course, if I had to write/type a shirt story, I obviously wouldn't have much of a problem.

I think I'd title mine "The Loneliest Waistcoat"

Which is exactly what I did once to receive a top prize in a local ss competition.  Certainly not bad for someone who "needs to learn what words mean".

Yeah, well, I won second place in a "Least Self-Righteous in a Conversational Circumstance" trophy too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 03, 2011, 03:08:58 AM
Here is a link to all the potential MLB free agents for 2012...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=An6F_1pA67Fyj.Lfz9vxB8A5nYcB?slug=jp-passan_ultimate_free_agent_tracker_baseball_110211
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 03, 2011, 09:14:59 AM
McDonald resigned with Arizona.  >:(
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on November 03, 2011, 09:47:02 AM
McDonald resigned with Arizona.  >:(

I was a little surprised by that.  I'm not upset that we lost Johnny Mac the baseball player as for the most part he is quite replaceable.  But he was a fan favourite and fans embraced him, so it sucks he won't be back in that sense.

I do wonder though if Arizona offering him another two-year guaranteed deal was the deal breaker.  I could see Anthopoulos telling him he'd like to bring him back on a year-to-year basis.  I'd still like to see him back as a coach one day with the organization.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 03, 2011, 10:55:01 AM
McDonald resigned with Arizona.  >:(

I was a little surprised by that.  I'm not upset that we lost Johnny Mac the baseball player as for the most part he is quite replaceable.  But he was a fan favourite and fans embraced him, so it sucks he won't be back in that sense.

I do wonder though if Arizona offering him another two-year guaranteed deal was the deal breaker.  I could see Anthopoulos telling him he'd like to bring him back on a year-to-year basis.  I'd still like to see him back as a coach one day with the organization.

I just hope Lawrie and Escobar soaked up as much as they could while he was here. I'd have liked to have seen him spend more time with Hecharravia(sp?) this spring too.
Title: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 03, 2011, 03:40:18 PM
McDonald resigned with Arizona.  >:(

I was a little surprised by that.  I'm not upset that we lost Johnny Mac the baseball player as for the most part he is quite replaceable.  But he was a fan favourite and fans embraced him, so it sucks he won't be back in that sense.

I do wonder though if Arizona offering him another two-year guaranteed deal was the deal breaker.  I could see Anthopoulos telling him he'd like to bring him back on a year-to-year basis.  I'd still like to see him back as a coach one day with the organization.

He was on TSN radio today, he said he was surprised that the diamondbacks offered him a deal and that he thought he had a good chance of getting good playing time there so he accepted the offer without going to market.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 03, 2011, 03:47:33 PM

If McDonald was done as a player then, yeah, I'd be fine with bringing him back on as a coach(although not everyone makes that transition just because of what they were as a player) but otherwise? I don't think you want to use a roster spot on an infield coach.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 04, 2011, 02:14:16 PM
A minor deal but we reacquired Trystan Magnuson from the As for cash... He's the pitcher we sent to to them in the Davis deal.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 04, 2011, 03:47:02 PM
A minor deal but we reacquired Trystan Magnuson from the As for cash... He's the pitcher we sent to to them in the Davis deal.

Interesting. They reacquired the other guy they traded for Davis earlier in the season when they sent Purcey to Oakland.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 04, 2011, 05:32:59 PM
In another not so minor move, the Jays beefed up their front office staff today announcing that they hired former Devil Rays GM Chuck LaMar as a special assistant to amateur scouting.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on November 08, 2011, 11:29:18 AM
Not sure if this was posted somewhere but here is Ron Washington and some of the players pep talk before game 7 of the World Series.

http://vimeo.com/31675320

Warning:  Profanity.  NSFW.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 08, 2011, 02:49:42 PM
Probably not earth-shattering, but Ken Rosenthal says that the Jays are among the teams most agressivley persuing starting pitching through trade.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/marlins_blue_jays_pursuing_starters/7951378?new_post=true
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 08, 2011, 02:53:08 PM
Probably not earth-shattering, but Ken Rosenthal says that the Jays are among the teams most agressivley persuing starting pitching through trade.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/marlins_blue_jays_pursuing_starters/7951378?new_post=true

... and Buster Olney of ESPN believes the Jays are pursing one of the better closers on the market too... If we bump our payroll to ~85 mil from ~65 mil, it could be a fun offseason.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 08, 2011, 02:57:39 PM
Probably not earth-shattering, but Ken Rosenthal says that the Jays are among the teams most agressivley persuing starting pitching through trade.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/marlins_blue_jays_pursuing_starters/7951378?new_post=true

I enjoyed this part:

Quote
As for the Jays, their pursuits of both starters and relievers is standard operating procedure for general manager Alex Anthopoulos.

ďAlex is always looking for everything,Ē one rival GM said. ďHe is the only GM in the league with a 60-man roster Ė and I say that as a compliment.

ďYou canít pin him down. He has interest in every one of your players.Ē
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 08, 2011, 03:00:41 PM
I think he's building a reputation as being pretty tireless.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 08, 2011, 05:06:14 PM

Just no big money/years for FA closers. Let's learn the lesson the Jays haven't before.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 08, 2011, 05:15:27 PM
Just no big money/years for FA closers. Let's learn the lesson the Jays haven't before.

Here's hoping. It actually wouldn't surprise me if the guy AA is really targeting to step in as closer for the next couple seasons is Joe Nathan. He won't cost too much, won't be a long-term commitment and won't cost a draft pick either. Of course, trying to predict what AA is up to isn't always the easiest thing in the world - it wouldn't shock me if he turned around and went after someone like Aaron Crow to fill the role instead. Not that Crow has any experience in the role, nor is he rumoured to be on the market, but, acquiring him just feels like an AA type of move.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 08, 2011, 05:31:32 PM
Here's hoping. It actually wouldn't surprise me if the guy AA is really targeting to step in as closer for the next couple seasons is Joe Nathan. He won't cost too much, won't be a long-term commitment and won't cost a draft pick either. Of course, trying to predict what AA is up to isn't always the easiest thing in the world - it wouldn't shock me if he turned around and went after someone like Aaron Crow to fill the role instead. Not that Crow has any experience in the role, nor is he rumoured to be on the market, but, acquiring him just feels like an AA type of move.

Either one sounds good. Again, I'm just strongly opposed to offering big money to a closer in general and in particular to this group of closers. Papelbon has been up and down, there are huge questions about Bell being able to get the job done outside of the NL West and so on.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 08, 2011, 05:47:01 PM
Either one sounds good. Again, I'm just strongly opposed to offering big money to a closer in general and in particular to this group of closers. Papelbon has been up and down, there are huge questions about Bell being able to get the job done outside of the NL West and so on.

I agree. The BJ Ryan potential in this year's group of prominent closers is discomforting, though, at the very least, these guys have a little more experience in the role. The Jays are better off with a short-term stopgap type while they develop someone in house - or pluck someone cheap from another organization like they did with Henke back in the day.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 08, 2011, 05:57:35 PM
... and there is of course, the surrendering of the pick... Not something I want to do for a closer.

Edit: Well, if that closer is Papelbon anyway.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 08, 2011, 06:20:29 PM

Just no big money/years for FA closers. Let's learn the lesson the Jays haven't before.

For all the talk of the Jays not being playoff-ready...and technically they probably aren't still unless they really bolster the rotation/bullpen. 

They finished with 81 wins and fell 10 games back of the Rays for the wild-card.  They blew 25 saves while only saving 33.   The Rays saved 32 and blew 12.  The Yankees saved 47 and blew 19.  One guy doesn't solve the problems with the bullpen but if they cut that number down by 6-7, that's got the Jays firmly in the playoff hunt.

If they could add a mid-rotation starter (I actually wouldn't mind them going after Erik Bedard who doesn't require any compensation) and maybe grab a guy like Felipe Lopez (coming off a brutal year) to play 2B - he plays a lot of SS but has somewhere under 3000 innings at 2B. Give him maybe a 2-year deal, and it also frees the team up to have a guy who can play 3B if you give Lawrie a day off instead of putting E5 there.  Similarly, you could always give Lawrie a day or two at 2B to fill in if you want to give Lopez a day off.

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 08, 2011, 06:26:51 PM
For all the talk of the Jays not being playoff-ready...and technically they probably aren't still unless they really bolster the rotation/bullpen. 

The Jays could use improvement in a bunch of areas. They were 11th in ERA and 9th in OBP. They weren't very good defensively either which contributed to the bad ERA as well.

So I don't disagree that they should be looking to fix the bullpen, they just shouldn't do it by throwing around significant chunks of the team's payroll at the hit and miss closers on the market.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 09, 2011, 08:57:19 AM
On Nov. 18 (Friday), Jays are to introduce their new uniforms for the upcoming 2012 season, according to media speculation.  Invitations were sent out for a 12noon gathering at Rogers Centre, with the theme of "Step up to the plate in style", thus fuellng speculation on the above.

Source:  Sportsnet
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 10, 2011, 10:42:21 AM
On Nov. 18 (Friday), Jays are to introduce their new uniforms for the upcoming 2012 season, according to media speculation.  Invitations were sent out for a 12noon gathering at Rogers Centre, with the theme of "Step up to the plate in style", thus fuellng speculation on the above.

Source:  Sportsnet

Most fans seem excited for a change. especially if we return to a more classic look.  That being said, I like the current jerseys and logo. I never seen so many youth wearing logos before and I think it has a lot to do with the modern look.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Erndog on November 10, 2011, 10:57:21 AM
24 year old Washington Nationals catcher, Wilson Ramos, kidnapped in hometown in Venezuela (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7215440/car-used-abductors-wilson-ramos-washington-nationals-found)


My goodness that is terrible.  Prayers go out to him and his family for a safe return.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2011, 05:44:10 PM

Dustin Parkes, fast becoming my favourite Blue Jays writer, has this terrific article about the "need" for a closer.

http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2011/11/10/theres-no-need-to-spend-money-on-a-proven-closer/ (http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2011/11/10/theres-no-need-to-spend-money-on-a-proven-closer/)

Quote
First of all, of the 25 blown saves that Blue Jays relievers committed last season, three times two blown saves occurred in the same game. Of the 23 games in which a blown save occurred, seven of those games still resulted in a Toronto Blue Jays victory. Of the sixteen losses resulting from a blown save, only half of the blown saves occurred in the ninth inning or later, when a ďproven closerĒ type would be more likely to have been used. Of the eight saves blown in the ninth inning or later, two were blown by non-closers who were only pitching because the closer wasnít available. This leaves us with six losses in which the teamís closer blew a save or was taken out of the game in the ninth inning and the replacement reliever blew a save.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 10, 2011, 05:55:19 PM
Yeah, the need for a closer from a purely statistical POV is largely overblown and, as we've already covered, I'm against the Jays going after someone like Bell or Papelbon, because they'll cost more than they'll contribute in value. However, I think there's value in having the guys in the pen know their role and not have it change from week to week. As part of the Jays' complete bullpen overhaul, I'd like to see them bring in a guy who would be the 9th inning guy, if for no other reason than providing some stability on the backend of the pen.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 10, 2011, 06:06:58 PM

Dustin Parkes, fast becoming my favourite Blue Jays writer, has this terrific article about the "need" for a closer.

http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2011/11/10/theres-no-need-to-spend-money-on-a-proven-closer/ (http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2011/11/10/theres-no-need-to-spend-money-on-a-proven-closer/)

Quote
First of all, of the 25 blown saves that Blue Jays relievers committed last season, three times two blown saves occurred in the same game. Of the 23 games in which a blown save occurred, seven of those games still resulted in a Toronto Blue Jays victory. Of the sixteen losses resulting from a blown save, only half of the blown saves occurred in the ninth inning or later, when a ďproven closerĒ type would be more likely to have been used. Of the eight saves blown in the ninth inning or later, two were blown by non-closers who were only pitching because the closer wasnít available. This leaves us with six losses in which the teamís closer blew a save or was taken out of the game in the ninth inning and the replacement reliever blew a save.

That I will agree with...but I wouldn't be opposed to adding a guy at the top of the pen which helps push guys back down a slot or two.  They need a few arms added to the bullpen to improve it and if they can get a guy who's reasonably affordable (obviously don't break the bank to sign Papelbon) it adds to the depth, even if it's for the generally over-valued closer. 
Say they went after Huston Street and ran a closing platoon of Street and Francisco.  One closes, the other is the 8th inning guy.  That pushes Janssen down to be a guy who can bridge the 6th/7th inning more often.  Adding depth never hurts the pen.  They also need a good 2-3 inning guy and it probably wouldn't hurt to have another 6th starter in the bullpen either.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2011, 06:09:59 PM
That I will agree with...but I wouldn't be opposed to adding a guy at the top of the pen which helps push guys back down a slot or two.  They need a few arms added to the bullpen to improve it and if they can get a guy who's reasonably affordable (obviously don't break the bank to sign Papelbon) it adds to the depth, even if it's for the generally over-valued closer. 
Say they went after Huston Street and ran a closing platoon of Street and Francisco.  One closes, the other is the 8th inning guy.  That pushes Janssen down to be a guy who can bridge the 6th/7th inning more often.  Adding depth never hurts the pen.  They also need a good 2-3 inning guy and it probably wouldn't hurt to have another 6th starter in the bullpen either.

Read the article!

Quote
The answer to the Blue Jays problems isnít a ďproven closer.Ē Like most teams, they need additional bullpen depth that one pitcher canít provide. Forget names like Papelbon, Heath Bell or Joe Nathan. Think about relievers like Todd Coffey, Mike Gonzalez, Darren Oliver, Chad Qualls, Dan Wheeler or Michael Wuertz. And dare I say, even the criminally underappreciated Frank Francisco. Toronto should be looking at relievers who arenít likely to get multiple year deals that drain finances.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 10, 2011, 06:14:58 PM
That I will agree with...but I wouldn't be opposed to adding a guy at the top of the pen which helps push guys back down a slot or two.  They need a few arms added to the bullpen to improve it and if they can get a guy who's reasonably affordable (obviously don't break the bank to sign Papelbon) it adds to the depth, even if it's for the generally over-valued closer. 
Say they went after Huston Street and ran a closing platoon of Street and Francisco.  One closes, the other is the 8th inning guy.  That pushes Janssen down to be a guy who can bridge the 6th/7th inning more often.  Adding depth never hurts the pen.  They also need a good 2-3 inning guy and it probably wouldn't hurt to have another 6th starter in the bullpen either.

Read the article!

Quote
The answer to the Blue Jays problems isnít a ďproven closer.Ē Like most teams, they need additional bullpen depth that one pitcher canít provide. Forget names like Papelbon, Heath Bell or Joe Nathan. Think about relievers like Todd Coffey, Mike Gonzalez, Darren Oliver, Chad Qualls, Dan Wheeler or Michael Wuertz. And dare I say, even the criminally underappreciated Frank Francisco. Toronto should be looking at relievers who arenít likely to get multiple year deals that drain finances.

I really think he is bang on with most of his assessment except for the "criminally underrated" Frank Francisco, which describes his pitching subsequent to his 'closer' designation and not during that reign of terror.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 10, 2011, 06:18:51 PM
That I will agree with...but I wouldn't be opposed to adding a guy at the top of the pen which helps push guys back down a slot or two.  They need a few arms added to the bullpen to improve it and if they can get a guy who's reasonably affordable (obviously don't break the bank to sign Papelbon) it adds to the depth, even if it's for the generally over-valued closer. 
Say they went after Huston Street and ran a closing platoon of Street and Francisco.  One closes, the other is the 8th inning guy.  That pushes Janssen down to be a guy who can bridge the 6th/7th inning more often.  Adding depth never hurts the pen.  They also need a good 2-3 inning guy and it probably wouldn't hurt to have another 6th starter in the bullpen either.

Read the article!

Quote
The answer to the Blue Jays problems isnít a ďproven closer.Ē Like most teams, they need additional bullpen depth that one pitcher canít provide. Forget names like Papelbon, Heath Bell or Joe Nathan. Think about relievers like Todd Coffey, Mike Gonzalez, Darren Oliver, Chad Qualls, Dan Wheeler or Michael Wuertz. And dare I say, even the criminally underappreciated Frank Francisco. Toronto should be looking at relievers who arenít likely to get multiple year deals that drain finances.

I really think he is bang on with most of his assessment except for the "criminally underrated" Frank Francisco, which describes his pitching subsequent to his 'closer' designation and not during that reign of terror.

Francisco had an awful first half of the year and was pretty dominant in the second half.  His season numbers were fine and if you get him back on a reasonable 1-3 year deal, I'm all for it.  When he throws strikes, he's very hard to hit.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 10, 2011, 06:24:30 PM
I agree with you about Francisco LK; he was fantastic AFTER taken out of the closer role. He did seem to settle down after that and I think he went back to saving games did he not?

Hopefully he worked through whatever was ailing him the first month and a half. But really, he was in the 4million$ range, which, on a multi-year deal, sounds like a pretty big investment going against the ideas the writer NIK quoted.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2011, 06:26:08 PM
I really think he is bang on with most of his assessment except for the "criminally underrated" Frank Francisco, which describes his pitching subsequent to his 'closer' designation and not during that reign of terror.

As the article notes, you have to judge relief pitchers on more than one year of data.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 10, 2011, 06:33:39 PM
I really think he is bang on with most of his assessment except for the "criminally underrated" Frank Francisco, which describes his pitching subsequent to his 'closer' designation and not during that reign of terror.

As the article notes, you have to judge relief pitchers on more than one year of data.

You mean, take into consideration his years in Texas where he saved very few games and was ousted as a closer the preceding season?

I like Francisco as a strong, cheap arm, the former which he proved the final 3 months of the season. If we need to give him a raise (which would put him in the 5 million$ range) for a number of years then, well, I wonder why we didn't just re-sign Downs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2011, 06:38:53 PM
You mean, take into consideration his years in Texas where he saved very few games and was ousted as a closer the preceding season?

No, I mean the years in Texas where he pitched pretty well, which is most of them. In '10 for instance, when not pitching in the hitters park that is Texas, he had a 2.22 ERA with one HR allowed and 29 strikeouts in 24 innings. In '09 he was at 2.70 with 3 HR and 25 K's in 23 innings.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 10, 2011, 06:46:32 PM
You mean, take into consideration his years in Texas where he saved very few games and was ousted as a closer the preceding season?

No, I mean the years in Texas where he pitched pretty well, which is most of them. In '10 for instance, when not pitching in the hitters park that is Texas, he had a 2.22 ERA with one HR allowed and 29 strikeouts in 24 innings. In '09 he was at 2.70 with 3 HR and 25 K's in 23 innings.

24 and 23 innings? What, does he only pitch on fridays?

Anyway that would be great if he wasn't earning 4-5 millions dollars on a multi-year contract.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2011, 06:49:27 PM
24 and 23 innings? What, does he only pitch on fridays?

Uh, hate to break it to you there John McGraw but that's, you know, roughly half a season for a closer/set-up man in the major leagues.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 10, 2011, 06:55:46 PM
24 and 23 innings? What, does he only pitch on fridays?

Uh, hate to break it to you there John McGraw but that's, you know, roughly half a season for a closer/set-up man in the major leagues.

Okay and you are talking about two separate "roughly" half seasons? That really isn't a big sample size, Tim.

But really I have mostly praised Francisco in this thread so I dont really know what this discussion is about. Also, care to comment on his price tag, considering it contradicts your boy's article comments?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2011, 07:12:07 PM
Okay and you are talking about two separate "roughly" half seasons? That really isn't a big sample size, Tim.

No, I'm talking about three full seasons where, in each of them, he pitched fairly well. I was just trying to put his Texas years in a park-neutral context.

But really I have mostly praised Francisco in this thread so I dont really know what this discussion is about.

He's a good relief pitcher who's pitched pretty well in each of the last three years. That doesn't carry with popular opinion and, as such, he was labelled as underrated. Hope that helps.

Also, care to comment on his price tag, considering it contradicts your boy's article comments?

You mean the make-believe price-tag you think he might get? No, I'm not sure that's worth commenting on.

As for what he did get, sad truth of the matter is that in order to get a competent relief pitcher you're probably going to have spend roughly in that range.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 11, 2011, 08:52:44 AM
Hey thanks dude! Your explanations really "helped" as you so condescendingly put it. It's hard to get a level read on things in makebelieve land, which is probably why I responded to one of your posts in the firstp lace.

ANYWHO, I'm wondering who's going to play 2nd next year. Would it be crazy to re-sign Hill on a deflated contract?
Title: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 11, 2011, 11:47:29 AM
Hey thanks dude! Your explanations really "helped" as you so condescendingly put it. It's hard to get a level read on things in makebelieve land, which is probably why I responded to one of your posts in the firstp lace.

ANYWHO, I'm wondering who's going to play 2nd next year. Would it be crazy to re-sign Hill on a deflated contract?

Word coming out now is that the jays are interested in FA Jamey Carroll, and were among 3 finalists for his services as of yesterday.

From Jon Morosi of FOX sports.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on November 11, 2011, 12:08:05 PM
Hmm I don't know alot about Carroll. His On Base numbers look great though. I wonder how he is defensively?

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 11, 2011, 02:20:25 PM
The Phillies have agreed to sign Jonathan Papelbon, according to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com (on Twitter). The deal is pending a physical.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 11, 2011, 03:32:40 PM
It appears Carroll is signing with the Twins.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on November 11, 2011, 03:44:53 PM
The Phillies have agreed to sign Jonathan Papelbon, according to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com (on Twitter). The deal is pending a physical.

I wasn't totally against signing Papelbon, but I'm glad we didn't get him (especially at that money), and even more glad he ended up in the National League. 

Sounds like the Marlins are going to be major players this off season.  They apparently have a good chance of signing Reyes, they've courted Pujols, and Buehrle has paid a visit as well (not to mention the Guillen connection).  I didn't realize they were getting a new ballpark next season -- looks pretty awesome.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 11, 2011, 03:49:04 PM
The Phillies have agreed to sign Jonathan Papelbon, according to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com (on Twitter). The deal is pending a physical.

I wasn't totally against signing Papelbon, but I'm glad we didn't get him (especially at that money), and even more glad he ended up in the National League. 

Sounds like the Marlins are going to be major players this off season.  They apparently have a good chance of signing Reyes, they've courted Pujols, and Buehrle has paid a visit as well (not to mention the Guillen connection).  I didn't realize they were getting a new ballpark next season -- looks pretty awesome.

Yeah, the Marlins seems to be in on a couple biggies... As far as Papelbon is concerned, I really didn't want to surrender a pick to Boston.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 11, 2011, 03:59:22 PM
Sounds like the Marlins are going to be major players this off season.  They apparently have a good chance of signing Reyes, they've courted Pujols, and Buehrle has paid a visit as well (not to mention the Guillen connection).  I didn't realize they were getting a new ballpark next season -- looks pretty awesome.

I'd wait until they actually sign someone big before I really believe they'll be big players. A lot of times teams in the position they're in get players to take meetings/use their deep pockets and willingness to spend money to jack up the offers they get from the clubs they really want to sign with. It's still not an organization that's held in really high regard.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 11, 2011, 04:32:55 PM
Sounds like the Marlins are going to be major players this off season.  They apparently have a good chance of signing Reyes, they've courted Pujols, and Buehrle has paid a visit as well (not to mention the Guillen connection).  I didn't realize they were getting a new ballpark next season -- looks pretty awesome.

I'd wait until they actually sign someone big before I really believe they'll be big players. A lot of times teams in the position they're in get players to take meetings/use their deep pockets and willingness to spend money to jack up the offers they get from the clubs they really want to sign with. It's still not an organization that's held in really high regard.

Also they have done this before.  Sign a bunch of players and then trade them a year later because Loria pretended that he cared about baseball for 15 minutes.  This is the same Marlins team that was essentially forced to sign a pitcher to a new contract by MLB/Selig because they were avoiding paying anyone like the plague.  Next to the joke of the Dodger's former ownership, Loria is quite possibly the worst owner in baseball.  He pockets revenue sharing payments like candy.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 11, 2011, 05:23:17 PM
Rumour has it the Jays are interested in/purusing Jonathon Broxton. Seems like a very AA type of move - a guy who's flown under the radar a little because of injuries/performance, that will likely be looking to sign a short-term deal to get his career back on track. Could a nice low-cost/high-reward type move.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Arn on November 11, 2011, 06:59:32 PM
Just went to the Marlins site to have a look at this new stadium (I'm a major geek when it comes to buildings, especially stadiums) and noticed they're rebranding as Miami Marlins. Is this new or did I miss something big?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 11, 2011, 07:40:42 PM
Just went to the Marlins site to have a look at this new stadium (I'm a major geek when it comes to buildings, especially stadiums) and noticed they're rebranding as Miami Marlins. Is this new or did I miss something big?

It's been known for a while now. I don't know how big it is, they've always been in Miami and this doesn't really change anything. The change  is probably because of some mix of a deal they made with the city government, the reality that they're no longer the only team in Florida and a desire to market to the city more directly.

The minor league team in Miami was named the Miami Marlins for about 30 years before they got their big league team so there's some retro appeal there too.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 11, 2011, 08:00:09 PM
Rumour has it the Jays are interested in/purusing Jonathon Broxton. Seems like a very AA type of move - a guy who's flown under the radar a little because of injuries/performance, that will likely be looking to sign a short-term deal to get his career back on track. Could a nice low-cost/high-reward type move.

An AA move for sure and one totally worth looking at but I'm not sure how low the cost would be... I see multiple teams are looking at him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Arn on November 11, 2011, 09:15:07 PM
Just went to the Marlins site to have a look at this new stadium (I'm a major geek when it comes to buildings, especially stadiums) and noticed they're rebranding as Miami Marlins. Is this new or did I miss something big?

It's been known for a while now. I don't know how big it is, they've always been in Miami and this doesn't really change anything. The change  is probably because of some mix of a deal they made with the city government, the reality that they're no longer the only team in Florida and a desire to market to the city more directly.

The minor league team in Miami was named the Miami Marlins for about 30 years before they got their big league team so there's some retro appeal there too.

Thanks for that. Just watching on their site now http://mlb.mlb.com/marlins/ the launch of the new logo and team uniforms.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 14, 2011, 12:13:26 AM
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/13/jays-looking-to-deal-for-closer

Quote
Weíve been told that the Jays have been shocked at the dollars that agents are asking for their closers.

Does that mean making a trade for a closer is the Jays best option? Probably.

That's sort of what I expected to happen. Outside of someone like Nathan, who might be looking for a shorter-term, possibly incentive laden deal, any potential closer on the free agent market is going to be looking for some sort of security in terms of salary, because the role of closer is never a secure one.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Captain Canuck on November 14, 2011, 12:24:39 AM
Couple ex-Jays in the news today:

Mike Matheny becomes the new Cardinals manager, while Aaron Hill re-signs with Arizona for 2 years @ $10-11 million
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 14, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
Interesting... Seems the Astros are likely to join the American league in 2013 to balance the two leagues out at 15 per. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 14, 2011, 09:29:35 PM
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/13/jays-looking-to-deal-for-closer

Quote
Weíve been told that the Jays have been shocked at the dollars that agents are asking for their closers.

Does that mean making a trade for a closer is the Jays best option? Probably.

That's sort of what I expected to happen. Outside of someone like Nathan, who might be looking for a shorter-term, possibly incentive laden deal, any potential closer on the free agent market is going to be looking for some sort of security in terms of salary, because the role of closer is never a secure one.

Are they really shocked.  Every free agent asks for a billion dollars anymore.  That's what a non-cap league that puts premium prices on arbitrary positions offers.  When was the last time a closer signed for a reasonable contract on the UFA market who wasn't laden with baggage.  Were they expecting anything different when Philly offered 44 and 50+ million dollars at two separate closers?

I love the Jays, and how hard Anthopoulis works but he has a tough sell.  Hey, come to the AL East where we will spend 150 million dollars less than the Red Sox and Yankees, have a weaker crop of MLB ready prospects than the Rays and have holes in our rotation, bullpen, 1B, a question mark at DH, CF, LF, a terrible defensive RF (who happens to be the best hitter in baseball - although he did not have a great second half), no 2B, and a catcher who hits home-runs and that is about it.  Oh, and did I mention we play in a different country?

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 16, 2011, 08:23:36 AM

MLB, MLBPA close to labor deal (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7239006/sides-close-major-league-baseball-labor-deal-sources-say)

Hey, what a shocker. The only sport that even tries to resemble the free market is the one with the most labor peace and the one with the happiest participants on all sides. It's almost as if there's something to the notion of letting the actual market dictate the economy.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 16, 2011, 03:31:20 PM
Blue Jays claim RHP Cole Kimball from Nationals - Shi Davidi

He only has 12 appearances in the Majors.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 16, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
Blue Jays claim RHP Cole Kimball from Nationals - Shi Davidi

He only has 12 appearances in the Majors.

He's only 26, so, that's not a surprise. From the looks of his numbers (both MLB and minor leagues), he's got very good stuff, but he also has some significant control issues. As a no risk type move, I like it, though, I wouldn't expect much from him.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 16, 2011, 03:38:10 PM
Blue Jays claim RHP Cole Kimball from Nationals - Shi Davidi

He only has 12 appearances in the Majors.

He's only 26, so, that's not a surprise. From the looks of his numbers (both MLB and minor leagues), he's got very good stuff, but he also has some significant control issues. As a no risk type move, I like it, though, I wouldn't expect much from him.

It looks like he was injured last season, he pitched under 30 innings, majors and minors combined.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 16, 2011, 03:56:40 PM
Can't say I know a thing about the guy but having looked at his stats, it's hard not to notice that 0.00 ERA in AAA last year (in the very limited time he had there.)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 16, 2011, 04:28:08 PM
... also hearing he's probably going to be on the shelf until mid-season. Probably just a case of one organization exercising more patience than another.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 16, 2011, 04:33:22 PM
His 2010 is pretty impressive. 101 K's in 78 innings and only 4 HR's allowed. That said, it was as a 24-25 year old in high A and AA.

Like Busta says, a no-risk option for the pen.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 17, 2011, 11:42:08 AM
One more sleep!
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19996493&topic_id=15480096&c_id=tor&tcid=vpp_copy_19996493&v=3
God, I've hated the current ones so.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 17, 2011, 12:42:20 PM
Looks like the Astros move is a done deal;

MLB MLB
BREAKING: MLB approves sale of Astros to group led by Jim Crane; Houston will move to American League West as soon as 2013.
4 minutes ago
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 17, 2011, 01:07:04 PM
2 wild cards added for 2013.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 17, 2011, 01:22:09 PM
2 wild cards added for 2013.

Selig actually hopes they'll have that in place for 2012.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on November 17, 2011, 03:13:03 PM
Looks like the Astros move is a done deal;

MLB MLB
BREAKING: MLB approves sale of Astros to group led by Jim Crane; Houston will move to American League West as soon as 2013.
4 minutes ago

Will they stay in Houston though?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 17, 2011, 03:14:02 PM
Looks like the Astros move is a done deal;

MLB MLB
BREAKING: MLB approves sale of Astros to group led by Jim Crane; Houston will move to American League West as soon as 2013.
4 minutes ago

Will they stay in Houston though?

Yes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Arn on November 17, 2011, 04:36:18 PM
2 wild cards added for 2013.

Selig actually hopes they'll have that in place for 2012.

2 wild cards total as in one in each league? So 5 teams from each league in the playoffs?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 17, 2011, 04:37:39 PM

2 wild cards total as in one in each league? So 5 teams from each league in the playoffs?

Yes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Arn on November 17, 2011, 04:54:08 PM
So then the 2 wild cards would playoff and the 3 division winners would go straight to the league semi finals?

5 teams in each division would give the Jays a much higher chance?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 17, 2011, 05:01:10 PM
So then the 2 wild cards would playoff and the 3 division winners would go straight to the league semi finals?

That's the plan, yes. The two wild card teams would have a single game playoff, apparently.

5 teams in each division would give the Jays a much higher chance?

Probably not, no. Same chance as always, maybe even less - there's talk about increasing interleague play as part of the realignment, which is an area in which the Jays have always struggled.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Arn on November 17, 2011, 05:40:24 PM
Surely a 3 game series would be more exciting? And probably more lucrative.

The Jays were ten games out of the first wild card spot this year, 9 games back on Boston and 4th place overall for the wild card in the AL. If they could win 5 more games they could be pretty close.

I do take your point on inter-league play, however.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 17, 2011, 11:22:04 PM

Clayton Kershaw won the NL Cy Young today. Not a terrible choice but I think Doc wuz robbed.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on November 18, 2011, 08:12:55 AM
By all accounts the Astros were forced into the AL West as it was a condition upon the sale of the team.  I wonder why it was the Astros who were made to move leagues whereas Milwaukee may have been the better choice having been part of the AL before.  Granted, a Houston/Texas rivalry will be born, nor am I certain there would be another natural fit for the division without having to re-jig the remaining divisions.

And while I'm excited to see an additional wild card team added, I don't know how I feel about a 1-game playoff.  A 2-out-of-3 series would make more sense -- the second wild card winner deserves at last one game at home.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 11:00:10 AM
Oops! Probably not a good idea to include the new logo in an announcement beginning at noon re. the new logo main page  :o but hey, that aside, if this is it (and I suspect it is) that's just damn sharp new logo.

http://mlb.mlb.com/bluejays/
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 18, 2011, 11:34:50 AM

Clayton Kershaw won the NL Cy Young today. Not a terrible choice but I think Doc wuz robbed.

I don't know about robbed but I think Halladay was the more deserving pitcher.  Kershaw lead the NL in wins, ERA, strikeouts, WHIP.  He also had a 4.59 K:BB ratio, gave up fewer than 7 hits/9 innings, pitched 233 innings, and had a WAR of 7.0.  There are really only minor differences in their numbers.  Roy was .05 below in ERA, gave up more hits, but had more complete games, had the best ERA+ in the NL, had the best K:BB ratio at 6.63!, and had the best WAR at 7.4.

I think both were deserving there.  What probably surprised me is that Kershaw won against a veteran pitcher, and usually when the numbers are close like that, the advantage goes to the guy who has been more consistent.  What that leads me to believe is that Roy got hurt for not winning 20 games.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 11:49:01 AM
Pretty close to perfection, IMO.  ;D Nice to have some good news today.

(http://media-cdn.pinterest.com/upload/97038566940594360_kRytMbfZ_c.jpg)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 18, 2011, 11:54:15 AM
Pretty close to perfection, IMO.  ;D Nice to have some good news today.

The only thing I don't like is Toronto being in different lettering than Blue Jays, looks a little weird.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 12:02:19 PM
Pretty close to perfection, IMO.  ;D Nice to have some good news today.

The only thing I don't like is Toronto being in different lettering than Blue Jays, looks a little weird.

That stood out to me as well but I actually like the contrast.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 18, 2011, 12:19:44 PM
Pretty close to perfection, IMO.  ;D Nice to have some good news today.

The only thing I don't like is Toronto being in different lettering than Blue Jays, looks a little weird.

I think it's actually the same font, just without being stylized.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 12:22:21 PM
All the new uniforms look fantastic but Dear Santa, please bring me a "blue" alternate jersey w/cap. OMG is that ever sharp. "The blue is back in Blue Jays!"
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on November 18, 2011, 12:22:34 PM
Arencibia's hat is weird.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
Arencibia's hat is weird.

It's just a BP cap... I like that they're just going with one cap this year... Same nice blue cap for the road and away.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 12:32:28 PM
So happy with the uniforms and logo, I had to upload it as my avatar.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 18, 2011, 02:12:19 PM
I don't know about robbed but I think Halladay was the more deserving pitcher.  Kershaw lead the NL in wins, ERA, strikeouts, WHIP.  He also had a 4.59 K:BB ratio, gave up fewer than 7 hits/9 innings, pitched 233 innings, and had a WAR of 7.0.  There are really only minor differences in their numbers.  Roy was .05 below in ERA, gave up more hits, but had more complete games, had the best ERA+ in the NL, had the best K:BB ratio at 6.63!, and had the best WAR at 7.4.

I think you kind of hit on, though, why I think Doc was if not robbed(and my playful spelling of "was" there was indication of some sort of joke-yness) at least undervalued. If Kershaw had a lower ERA, why did Doc have a lower ERA+. Well, Park Factor clearly. Doc pitched in Philly's tiny park, Kershaw pitched in big Dodger Stadium. Doc pitched in the NL's toughest division, Kershaw pitched in baseball's worst division(that also had it's fair share of pitcher's parks)

So putting up very similar numbers actually works to Doc's advantage quite a bit. Like you point out, BR's WAR has him up by about half a win but Fangraph's WAR has him up by 1.4.

I just think it's a little funny that Doc is the guy who the numbers favour and yet Kershaw got the overwhelming majority of support here. I think it's a little unfortunate, especially after Hernandez' big win last year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 18, 2011, 03:12:17 PM
Just saw the new uniforms. I'm mixed. I was definitely hoping for more of an actual attempt to come up with something classic as opposed to just reaching back into the glory days of the club and going with them.

That said, they're clean, they do have that connection to when the club was good and I like the new logo more than  just about any they've had before.

The one thing I'd be strictly negative about are the hats. Leaving aside that the logo looks way too big on them I'm not a big fan of hats with graphics on them anyway. I think all of the great baseball hats are just letters. It's a shame as I like baseball hats but I'll probably still stick with the Brooklyn Dodgers when it comes to them.

edit: just saw a better photo of the alternate home blues. They're effin' sharp. The rest still stands.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 18, 2011, 03:30:12 PM
Cole Kimball, we hardly knew ya... Claimed back by the Nationals as we also claim Andrew Carpenter off waivers from the Padres.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on November 18, 2011, 05:12:43 PM
Finally a uniform worth buying again.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 19, 2011, 12:29:31 AM
All the new uniforms look fantastic but Dear Santa, please bring me a "blue" alternate jersey w/cap. OMG is that ever sharp. "The blue is back in Blue Jays!"
 

Very nice, very classy, very stylish, and, somewhat
'nostalgic' --   I remember all those early, early years,
the Jays' inaugural uniforms in their first year at now
defunct Exibition Stadium, etc., etc. --  ah, yes, these
bring back some memories of yesteryears gone by.

Very happy the Blue Jays will now be looking good again!   :)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 21, 2011, 03:56:26 AM
Proud Blue Jays....


http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/11/18/top_jays_unis/

"They look sharp. From my own perspective, when you think of the Toronto Blue Jays there was a certain font, and certainly a colour that came to mind,Ē said John Farrell. ďItís a fresh look, itís a new look, yet itís one that links us to a time when this was the place to be. Weíre hoping and working towards being that place again in Major League Baseball.

I think itís special,Ē said Romero. ďObviously we donít just represent Toronto, we represent all of Canada. To have it, we wear it with pride. Itís special to us.

Bautista: ďGeorge Bell was here, Tony Fernandez, Juan Guzman, Damaso Garcia, even some of the teams that didnít win the championship, (the Blue Jays) still had a huge presence from the Domincan and Latins overall,Ē he said. ďWe have something similar to that going on right now with myself and Edwin and Ricky and J.P. (Arencibia) and Yunel (Escobar), so itís great. We love these uniforms and we think they look perfect.Ē

So do we, Jose!   :D
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 21, 2011, 12:31:55 PM
So how do folks feel about the Cy Young winner also being the MVP? I guess we'll see how baseball feels about that @ 2 pm.  :-\ 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 21, 2011, 12:49:30 PM
So how do folks feel about the Cy Young winner also being the MVP? I guess we'll see how baseball feels about that @ 2 pm.  :-\

When they have a year like Verlander did, I'm okay with it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 21, 2011, 12:52:54 PM
So how do folks feel about the Cy Young winner also being the MVP? I guess we'll see how baseball feels about that @ 2 pm.  :-\

When they have a year like Verlander did, I'm okay with it.

I have mixed feelings. I suppose though I might not care if Bautista wasn't in the running.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 21, 2011, 02:03:13 PM
Verlander... Damn.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on November 21, 2011, 02:13:14 PM
He won with 280 points Ellsbury second with 241, Jose third with 230.

Verlander got 13 of 28 first place votes.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 21, 2011, 02:23:35 PM
He won with 280 points Ellsbury second with 241, Jose third with 230.

Verlander got 13 of 28 first place votes.

Ellsbury finishing 2nd bothers me a lot more than Verlander winning. Don't get me wrong, Ellsbury had a great season, but he was not the 2nd most valuable player in the league.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 03:27:58 PM
So how do folks feel about the Cy Young winner also being the MVP? I guess we'll see how baseball feels about that @ 2 pm.  :-\

When they have a year like Verlander did, I'm okay with it.

Yeah, I mean, comparing the WAR of pitchers to position players is tricky but Verlander did tie Bautista according to BR at 8.5 for the league lead so it's hard to argue too much with the choice(although fangraphs has Bautista over Verlander 8.3 to 7.0)

So it was a toss-up. Verlander fit the narrative better, he won the award. Not much to complain about.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 03:29:57 PM
Ellsbury finishing 2nd bothers me a lot more than Verlander winning. Don't get me wrong, Ellsbury had a great season, but he was not the 2nd most valuable player in the league.

He did finish 3rd in BR's WAR though, so it's not that far off. Really, the top five is pretty good with the exception of Granderson.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on November 21, 2011, 03:35:34 PM
Ellsbury finishing 2nd bothers me a lot more than Verlander winning. Don't get me wrong, Ellsbury had a great season, but he was not the 2nd most valuable player in the league.

I hope Ellsbury finishing 2nd puts to bed the whole notion by many that the MVP should not come from a non-playoff team, especially considering he was part of the worst collapse in MLB history.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 03:40:53 PM
I hope Ellsbury finishing 2nd puts to bed the whole notion by many that the MVP should not come from a non-playoff team, especially considering he was part of the worst collapse in MLB history.

I'd share that hope but I think the fact that he finished above Bautista probably provides the counter balance to that. I don't know if there's a credible way to look at the seasons the two guys had and vote for Ellsbury over Bautista if you're not heavily influenced by the team's respective places in the standings. It's also probably worth mentioning that while the Sox collapsed, Ellsbury was spectacular in September.

Anyway, I'd guess that if guys on non-playoff teams winning the award didn't kill the ridiculous notion you're talking about nothing probably will. Some people are just always going to care about pitcher wins.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on November 21, 2011, 03:42:38 PM
I'm okay with Verlander winning, and I am happy with Bautista finishing 3rd.

Ellsbury and Granderson had other guys on their teams that were under consideration, did they not? (Gonzalez and Teixeira). I have always thought that having more than one MVP candidate from a team kind of diminishes the argument for one or the other because they are likely enjoying their success partly because of the success of their teammate.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 03:49:27 PM
I'm okay with Verlander winning, and I am happy with Bautista finishing 3rd.

Ellsbury and Granderson had other guys on their teams that were under consideration, did they not? (Gonzalez and Teixeira). I have always thought that having more than one MVP candidate from a team kind of diminishes the argument for one or the other because they are likely enjoying their success partly because of the success of their teammate.

For what it's worth Verlander is the only guy you mention who had another serious MVP candidate on his team in Miguel Cabrera(Gonzalez ranks as the third most valuable Red Sock behind Pedroia and Teixeira actually finished tied for Bartolo Colon as the 12th most valuable Yankee, according to BR).
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 21, 2011, 03:52:25 PM
He did finish 3rd in BR's WAR though, so it's not that far off. Really, the top five is pretty good with the exception of Granderson.

Granderson finishing 4th is a whole different issue - especially considering he received more top 5 finish votes (25) than Bautista (24). I mean, that's just absurd. The fact that some voters had Bautista ranked as low as 7th is just ridiculous. The guy was probably the most dangerous bat in baseball in 2011.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Derk on November 21, 2011, 03:54:19 PM
I'm okay with Verlander winning, and I am happy with Bautista finishing 3rd.

Ellsbury and Granderson had other guys on their teams that were under consideration, did they not? (Gonzalez and Teixeira). I have always thought that having more than one MVP candidate from a team kind of diminishes the argument for one or the other because they are likely enjoying their success partly because of the success of their teammate.

For what it's worth Verlander is the only guy you mention who had another serious MVP candidate on his team in Miguel Cabrera(Gonzalez ranks as the third most valuable Red Sock behind Pedroia and Teixeira actually finished tied for Bartolo Colon as the 12th most valuable Yankee, according to BR).

Wow, didn't know that. Thanks!

I just remember during the year that Teixeira was a serious contender, as was Gonzalez, but that could have been before the all-star break. I really stopped caring about it at that point. :)

I do think that having a strong batting lineup favours other batters in their hunt for MVP. Cabrera was definitely a support for Verlander in his MVP bid, but not as much as Teixeira may have been for Granderson.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 04:05:16 PM
Granderson finishing 4th is a whole different issue - especially considering he received more top 5 finish votes (25) than Bautista (24). I mean, that's just absurd. The fact that some voters had Bautista ranked as low as 7th is just ridiculous. The guy was probably the most dangerous bat in baseball in 2011.

Yeah, the thing I wrestle with IRT Bautista is the intentional/semi-intentional walks issue and how it probably inflated his value a little this year. In a way it's kind of the polar opposite of what Derk is saying re: Teixeira and Granderson. Stat heads are so focused on not making outs that Bautista not getting pitched to all year is his strongest argument. Much like Granderson shouldn't win with of RBIs because guys were on in front of him, Bautista shouldn't win because Adam Lind was so terrible that walking Bautista was a no-risk proposition.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 04:07:53 PM
I do think that having a strong batting lineup favours other batters in their hunt for MVP. Cabrera was definitely a support for Verlander in his MVP bid, but not as much as Teixeira may have been for Granderson.

Well, you have a point(although I wouldn't use Tex for Granderson, I'd use Cano or the whole line-up). Not only does playing in a good line-up increase a player's basic stats like runs and RBI's that carry sway with traditional voters but it also increases the likelihood that you're on a good team which carries a lot of sway with the kind of dopes Busta references who'd vote for Bautista as the 7th most valuable AL player.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on November 21, 2011, 07:10:52 PM
The conversation on the the Tigers list that I'm a part of was concern that Cabrera was going to take away votes from Verlander. You could very easily make a case for any of the top 5. That being said the way Verlander dominated all of the pitching categories and the Tigers' record when he was starting showed his value to the team. Even if you don't think a pitcher should be eligible for MVP, I don't think you can argue against this one. I know I'm happy with the choice and the Tigers' season in general. It went better than I thought it would in Spring Training.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 21, 2011, 07:29:13 PM
You could very easily make a case for any of the top 5.

That's probably true although the case for Granderson would probably be something like "Woo! Go Yankees!"
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 22, 2011, 03:47:14 PM

Ryan Braun wins the NL MVP. Should be Kemp but Braun was a good second choice.

Interesting that Kershaw handily won the Cy Young but Doc almost doubled his MVP vote total.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 22, 2011, 03:51:20 PM

Also, for those of you who thought that the MLB draft needed fixing so that big market powerhouses like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals couldn't spend a ton of money and build through the draft, you got your wish.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 22, 2011, 04:01:32 PM

Also, for those of you who thought that the MLB draft needed fixing so that big market powerhouses like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals couldn't spend a ton of money and build through the draft, you got your wish.

I can't wait until baseball gets a real commissioner who doesn't sit in the pocket of the yankees/red sox.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on November 22, 2011, 09:00:17 PM
Yay free market labour deal?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 22, 2011, 09:27:58 PM
Yay free market labour deal?

It was kind of a trade-off free market wise. There's the tax/penalties on amateur spending but they got rid of the compensation for free agents and more guys will get arbitration.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on November 23, 2011, 10:54:36 AM
The new (pending) rules concerning the international market, where teams like the Jays are big spenders (7M this season), will supposedly level the playing field so that large dollar figures will no longer favour the big spenders.  While many believe this won't hinder the Jays much, still, it certainly won't add any flexibility to their plans in this category.  It may be both fair and unfair,
depending on how one looks at it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 23, 2011, 03:23:46 PM
I like the new rules. While the Jays were willing to spend on high priced prospects, they also have invested in having the best scouts. I have no concerns about this teams ability to find good prospects under this new system.

The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 23, 2011, 04:48:44 PM
The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 23, 2011, 05:38:40 PM
The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

The only thing that needed to be done was either add a 1-year period to sign contracts that limited player hold-outs, or to fix the slot system which if I'm not mistaken, they did.  It just kills bad teams abilities to sign good players out of the draft, and most of the latin players are signed by bottom feeders because they players want a shot in the organization that they will never get in New York/Boston unless they are boon players like Dice-K who came over as already established players.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 23, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
The only thing that needed to be done was either add a 1-year period to sign contracts that limited player hold-outs, or to fix the slot system which if I'm not mistaken, they did.  It just kills bad teams abilities to sign good players out of the draft, and most of the latin players are signed by bottom feeders because they players want a shot in the organization that they will never get in New York/Boston unless they are boon players like Dice-K who came over as already established players.

The one argument I've heard that's reasonably fair is that you could argue that the deal is relatively proactive inasmuch as the Yankees could, at some point, have decided "Screw it, we'll spend 50 million next year in the draft and on latin players" and this precludes the possibility.

That said, there's no doubt that in a sport with some small competitive balance issues this probably makes things lean the other way.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on November 23, 2011, 05:59:36 PM
The one argument I've heard that's reasonably fair is that you could argue that the deal is relatively proactive inasmuch as the Yankees could, at some point, have decided "Screw it, we'll spend 50 million next year in the draft and on latin players" and this precludes the possibility.

That said, there's no doubt that in a sport with some small competitive balance issues this probably makes things lean the other way.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I understand what they might have been trying to do here, but, they went about it the wrong way. If they want to prevent situations like the one you presented, it would have been better to put a max value on individual rookie/draft/IFA contracts than to put one on total expenditure.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 25, 2011, 09:57:22 AM
The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands. I prefer players are draft entirely on their skill levels and how they could help teams.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 25, 2011, 09:59:36 AM
The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands. I prefer players are draft entirely on their skill levels and how they could help teams.

The solution to that is slot money, not capping how much a team can spend in general.  And not all players drop due to salary demand, some really good players drop because they are risky signings because they are forgoing college if they go pro.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 25, 2011, 11:47:40 AM
The playing field needed to be leveled and hopefully the money we would be put into signing prospects can now go towards free agents (when needed).

I don't get this at all. The playing field needed leveling when it came to draft spending? Again, the teams who are spending tons in the draft these days are the low revenue teams like the Jays, Rays, Pirates and Royals. Did things really need to be swung away from them?

This is a huge boon to the teams who have the money to spend giant sums in free agency.

I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands. I prefer players are draft entirely on their skill levels and how they could help teams.

The solution to that is slot money, not capping how much a team can spend in general.  And not all players drop due to salary demand, some really good players drop because they are risky signings because they are forgoing college if they go pro.

That is a very good point. Not everyone drops because of money, but, many prospects leverage college to get more money.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 25, 2011, 02:53:20 PM
I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands.

Those players aren't steals, they're fully bought and paid for. And, as LK says, a high school player can still do that under this system by using college as leverage.

And, either way, pushing for this kind of "equality" in the draft is going to hurt the small market teams and give an edge to teams like the Red Sox and the Yankees. Do you really think that's what baseball needed?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 25, 2011, 07:35:05 PM
I know most smaller market teams (or teams that don't sell in big markets) use the draft by spending more to compete with the Yankees in Red Sox. I just feel the system should be equal towards every team in the sense a player shouldn't drop 10 spots due to salary demands. For example, a player like Rick Porcello shouldn't drop to 27th because of the money he is demanding. I don't think teams should find steals in the second and third rounds because good players drop due to salary demands.

Those players aren't steals, they're fully bought and paid for. And, as LK says, a high school player can still do that under this system by using college as leverage.

And, either way, pushing for this kind of "equality" in the draft is going to hurt the small market teams and give an edge to teams like the Red Sox and the Yankees. Do you really think that's what baseball needed?






They can still do it but there is less an advantage to it now.

The Yankees and Red Sox always have drafted strong regardless of spending. I don't see how this will change things too much from them.

The MLB has had more variety in champions than any other major North American sports. At the same time, the problem is them being able to overspend on big name free agents. As long as smaller market clubs get compensation when they lose players, they will still have an advantage during the draft.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 26, 2011, 01:26:35 PM
The Yankees and Red Sox always have drafted strong regardless of spending. I don't see how this will change things too much from them.

It won't. It will change things for the smaller market teams who'd been using the draft as a way to close the gap between them and the Yankees and Red Sox.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 26, 2011, 02:20:45 PM
The Yankees and Red Sox always have drafted strong regardless of spending. I don't see how this will change things too much from them.

It won't. It will change things for the smaller market teams who'd been using the draft as a way to close the gap between them and the Yankees and Red Sox.
You could be right, but, I disagree.

They can reallocate money into scouting and just draft better then the Yankees/Red Sox.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 26, 2011, 02:23:03 PM
They can reallocate money into scouting and just draft better then the Yankees/Red Sox.

Scouting doesn't really work that way. Even so, those teams are investing heavily in scouting anyway. The reality, though is you can't just pour money into scouting and get better results. It's why teams like the ones we're talking about have favoured getting as many high level prospects as possible. This takes away that option.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 26, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
They can reallocate money into scouting and just draft better then the Yankees/Red Sox.

Scouting doesn't really work that way. Even so, those teams are investing heavily in scouting anyway. The reality, though is you can't just pour money into scouting and get better results. It's why teams like the ones we're talking about have favoured getting as many high level prospects as possible. This takes away that option.

In case of the Jays good scouting has revamped their system.

AA described them creating rankings for every player and simply drafting the best players available. So having smart scouting and a lot good scouts (IE spending money on the best) can turn poor farm systems around.

Nothing is absolute of course.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 26, 2011, 06:51:59 PM
We just acquired 2B Luis Valbuena from the tribe for cash.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381358

Not sure if the plan is for him to be our regular 2B or utility infielder...

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on November 26, 2011, 07:17:30 PM
We just acquired 2B Luis Valbuena from the tribe for cash.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381358

Not sure if the plan is for him to be our regular 2B or utility infielder...

Don't know much about him.

However, from everything I am reading he seems like a great pick up.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 26, 2011, 07:21:53 PM
We just acquired 2B Luis Valbuena from the tribe for cash.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381358

Not sure if the plan is for him to be our regular 2B or utility infielder...

Don't know much about him.

However, from everything I am reading he seems like a great pick up.

I'm still reading and I'm still not sure what this means? I mean, is the plan to go inexpensive at 2B with a guy like this and spend larger elsewhere?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on November 26, 2011, 08:04:19 PM
We just acquired 2B Luis Valbuena from the tribe for cash.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381358

Not sure if the plan is for him to be our regular 2B or utility infielder...

Don't know much about him.

However, from everything I am reading he seems like a great pick up.

I'm still reading and I'm still not sure what this means? I mean, is the plan to go inexpensive at 2B with a guy like this and spend larger elsewhere?

I can't see this as more than a depth/platoon type pickup.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on November 26, 2011, 08:14:43 PM
We just acquired 2B Luis Valbuena from the tribe for cash.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381358

Not sure if the plan is for him to be our regular 2B or utility infielder...

Don't know much about him.

However, from everything I am reading he seems like a great pick up.

I'm still reading and I'm still not sure what this means? I mean, is the plan to go inexpensive at 2B with a guy like this and spend larger elsewhere?

I can't see this as more than a depth/platoon type pickup.

Okay, thanks.. Again, I know very little about the player.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on November 26, 2011, 08:33:24 PM
We just acquired 2B Luis Valbuena from the tribe for cash.

http://tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381358

Not sure if the plan is for him to be our regular 2B or utility infielder...

Don't know much about him.

However, from everything I am reading he seems like a great pick up.

I'm still reading and I'm still not sure what this means? I mean, is the plan to go inexpensive at 2B with a guy like this and spend larger elsewhere?

I can't see this as more than a depth/platoon type pickup.

Okay, thanks.. Again, I know very little about the player.

Yeah, -1.1 career defensive WAR
Career 72 OPS+

He's depth, and if he is playing regularly in the field we aren't finishing anywhere near the playoffs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on November 26, 2011, 08:44:07 PM
He's depth, and if he is playing regularly in the field we aren't finishing anywhere near the playoffs.

I can't make much of a case for him other than he hit ok as a 23 year old and hit pretty well in the minors last year. That said, yeah, he's probably not a starter.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 01, 2011, 02:55:10 PM
http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/blue_jays_after_heath_bell/8444311
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 01, 2011, 04:09:07 PM
http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/blue_jays_after_heath_bell/8444311

I don't love the idea, but, depending on the contract, I don't necessarily hate it either. With the new CBA, the Jays won't have to surrender a draft pick if they sign him, so, on a shorter term, reasonable money deal, why not?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 02, 2011, 06:31:23 AM
Sounds like the Marlins are going to be major players this off season.  They apparently have a good chance of signing Reyes, they've courted Pujols, and Buehrle has paid a visit as well (not to mention the Guillen connection).  I didn't realize they were getting a new ballpark next season -- looks pretty awesome.

I'd wait until they actually sign someone big before I really believe they'll be big players. A lot of times teams in the position they're in get players to take meetings/use their deep pockets and willingness to spend money to jack up the offers they get from the clubs they really want to sign with. It's still not an organization that's held in really high regard.

Also they have done this before.  Sign a bunch of players and then trade them a year later because Loria pretended that he cared about baseball for 15 minutes.  This is the same Marlins team that was essentially forced to sign a pitcher to a new contract by MLB/Selig because they were avoiding paying anyone like the plague.  Next to the joke of the Dodger's former ownership, Loria is quite possibly the worst owner in baseball.  He pockets revenue sharing payments like candy.

Looks like you're right, Peter... They've begun with Bell.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on December 02, 2011, 08:23:14 AM
http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/blue_jays_after_heath_bell/8444311

I don't love the idea, but, depending on the contract, I don't necessarily hate it either. With the new CBA, the Jays won't have to surrender a draft pick if they sign him, so, on a shorter term, reasonable money deal, why not?

3/27 million with an option for the 4th year.  Not an amazing deal, but hardly the 5/47 contract the Jays gave BJ Ryan.  I'm really not expecting that the Jays purse strings open up this year and I think it is going to be a huge mistake.  They are going to waste Bautista's best years.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 03, 2011, 04:26:04 PM
Mills for Mathis, eh? Well, I suppose we didn't acquire him for his bat.  :-\  I suppose I can live with it for the ~35 games... and we certainly didn't give up much.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on December 03, 2011, 05:27:34 PM
Mills for Mathis, eh? Well, I suppose we didn't acquire him for his bat.  :-\  I suppose I can live with it for the ~35 games... and we certainly didn't give up much.

Yeah, I don't even think you can even refer to him as anything more than an automatic out.  Career .194 batting average with a .257 OBP....he going to be someone Jays fans are going to get annoyed with if he plays more than spot 8th/9th inning defensive duty/ 1-2 games a week at maximum.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on December 04, 2011, 10:40:32 AM
Mills for Mathis, eh? Well, I suppose we didn't acquire him for his bat.  :-\  I suppose I can live with it for the ~35 games... and we certainly didn't give up much.

Yeah, I don't even think you can even refer to him as anything more than an automatic out.  Career .194 batting average with a .257 OBP....he going to be someone Jays fans are going to get annoyed with if he plays more than spot 8th/9th inning defensive duty/ 1-2 games a week at maximum.

Suprised they didn't stick with Molina if this was the best they could do.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 11:16:12 AM
Suprised they didn't stick with Molina if this was the best they could do.

I'm sure they tried to re-sign Molina, but, he chose to leave for TBay.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on December 04, 2011, 01:55:01 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381952

I have my reservations on the accuracy as I don't want to get too excited, but this would be a great first step into showing that ownership is willing to spend money to contend.  I'd love to see Fielder's bat in our lineup.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 01:59:24 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=381952

I have my reservations on the accuracy as I don't want to get too excited, but this would be a great first step into showing that ownership is willing to spend money to contend.  I'd love to see Fielder's bat in our lineup.

I'd prefer to see him as DH if he does sign with the Jays, as his defence isn't great, but his bat would certainly be a nice upgrade on Lind, and more than makes up for whatever would be lost in the field.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 02:02:11 PM
We've discussed this before but Fielder is 27. Cecil's numbers began to drop after '96 when he was 32 so I think it's relatively safe to say we can expect 5 excellent years from Prince. If he'll agree to a 7 year deal, I'm in favour (assuming year 6 is "meh" and year 7 is pretty much a waste.)  Someone might even be able to sell me on an additional year... I drool over how awesome Bautista would be with this kind of protection.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 02:10:02 PM
We've discussed this before but Fielder is 27. Cecil's numbers began to drop after '96 when he was 32 so I think it's relatively safe to say we can expect 5 excellent years from Prince.

1. Cecil Fielder's numbers began to drop when he was 28.
2. It's not safe to assume that Prince Fielder's career path will exactly mirror his father's either way.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on December 04, 2011, 02:16:19 PM
I just decided to check out Fielder's Wiki page and at the bottom it says that as of today, he signed a 6-year, $154M deal with the Jays.  :o

Probably someone having some fun, but again,  :o.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on December 04, 2011, 02:18:20 PM
A minute later it was removed. LOL
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 02:19:20 PM
Cecil Fielder's '94, '95, and 96 seasons were very, very good... Especially his '96 when he was 32.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 02:23:19 PM
1. Cecil Fielder's numbers began to drop when he was 28.

In case anyone is interested here are Cecil Fielder's WAR's by age:

26: 6.4
27: 3.4
28: 2.7
29: 0.4
30: 1.7
31: 0.0
32: 0.5
33: 0.7
34: -1.0

So he was more or less finished as a player at 28.

Anyways, Prince is a better player than his father but guys with his body type don't age well. It'd have to be a very short term deal, I think, for the Jays to get decent value.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 02:25:14 PM
Cecil Fielder's '94, '95, and 96 seasons were very, very good... Especially his '96 when he was 32.

WAR's of 1.7, 0.0 and 0.5. Those aren't good by any standards.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 02:35:19 PM
Cecil Fielder's OPS didn't fall off a cliff until '97. While far from perfect, I think Daddy should be considered a semi-decent way to project son. Prinne might turn out to be better.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 02:49:13 PM
Cecil Fielder's '94, '95, and 96 seasons were very, very good... Especially his '96 when he was 32.

WAR's of 1.7, 0.0 and 0.5. Those aren't good by any standards.

While that's true, his OPS+ in those seasons were 113, 111 and 108 - so, he was still a slightly above average bat through those years, he just really should not have been in the field at all.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 02:51:20 PM
All that being said, I've set my "big bat" hopes on Josh Willingham. A guy like that might make a bunch more sense for the Jays... Unless of course the brass feel Fielder will draw enough fans.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 02:55:01 PM
All that being said, I've set my "big bat" hopes on Josh Willingham. A guy like that might make a bunch more sense for the Jays... Unless of course the brass feel Fielder will draw enough fans.

That's setting your sites a little low, all things considered. Yes, adding a bat in LF makes sense for the Jays, but, Willingham is this winter's Jayson Werth - a guy that's going to get paid too much for too long for what he actually provides.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 03:16:20 PM
All that being said, I've set my "big bat" hopes on Josh Willingham. A guy like that might make a bunch more sense for the Jays... Unless of course the brass feel Fielder will draw enough fans.

That's setting your sites a little low, all things considered. Yes, adding a bat in LF makes sense for the Jays, but, Willingham is this winter's Jayson Werth - a guy that's going to get paid too much for too long for what he actually provides.

I sort of had Willingham as a guy who might be a little under the radar... You think he'll get paid huge, eh?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 03:22:50 PM
I sort of had Willingham as a guy who might be a little under the radar... You think he'll get paid huge, eh?

There aren't a lot of good OF bats on the market this winter, and he might be the best of them - or, at least, the most appealing.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 03:27:40 PM
I sort of had Willingham as a guy who might be a little under the radar... You think he'll get paid huge, eh?

There aren't a lot of good OF bats on the market this winter, and he might be the best of them.

So are you of the go big or go home view when looking for another bat this off-season? Or, is it just that you feel we should be looking for a trade?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 03:39:09 PM
I'm sure they are just friends but this is interesting...

RickyRo24 Ricky Romero
Leaving Dominican early in the morning with my lil cousin Adrian.. Have to give a big thanks to @davidortiz for an amazing weekend.
10 hours ago

Now he's a guy I'd love on a shorter term deal. He absolutely slaughters the Roger's center.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Andy on December 04, 2011, 03:56:19 PM
I'm sure they are just friends but this is interesting...

RickyRo24 Ricky Romero
Leaving Dominican early in the morning with my lil cousin Adrian.. Have to give a big thanks to @davidortiz for an amazing weekend.
10 hours ago

Now he's a guy I'd love on a shorter term deal. He absolutely slaughters the Roger's center.

I think taking into account his age, the shape he's in and that there is now going to be a test for HGH, he might be a risky sign.

God I hope Lind remembers how to hit.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 04:44:48 PM
So are you of the go big or go home view when looking for another bat this off-season? Or, is it just that you feel we should be looking for a trade?

I'm more of a fan of the Jays being smart with their money, and I don't think there will be a good opportunity for the with Willingham - nor do I think LF is a pressing need, with Snider and Thames. I see some wisdom in signing Fielder - he represents a significant need (upgrade at 1B/DH), he's younger (27 compared to 32 for Willingham) and he's also a bigger draw/more marketable. That being said, yeah, if I had a choice, I'd rather go for a trade and try really hard to pry Votto away from the Reds. At the end of the day, though, what the Jays need to do is focus their efforts.dollars on their real needs, and, right now, that means improving the bullpen, the middle/backend of the rotation and finding a 2B. Everything else, right now, is a luxury, really.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 04:51:23 PM
While that's true, his OPS+ in those seasons were 113, 111 and 108 - so, he was still a slightly above average bat through those years, he just really should not have been in the field at all.

But it's not like being a DH would have helped his oWAR and his oWAR in those three years were 1.3(he grades out as an ok fielder that year), 0.7 and 0.6. The guy wasn't hitting well enough to be taking up at-bats regardless of position.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 04:52:59 PM
So are you of the go big or go home view when looking for another bat this off-season? Or, is it just that you feel we should be looking for a trade?

I'm more of a fan of the Jays being smart with their money, and I don't think there will be a good opportunity for the with Willingham - nor do I think LF is a pressing need, with Snider and Thames. I see some wisdom in signing Fielder - he represents a significant need (upgrade at 1B/DH), he's younger (27 compared to 32 for Willingham) and he's also a bigger draw/more marketable. That being said, yeah, if I had a choice, I'd rather go for a trade and try really hard to pry Votto away from the Reds. At the end of the day, though, what the Jays need to do is focus their efforts.dollars on their real needs, and, right now, that means improving the bullpen, the middle/backend of the rotation and finding a 2B. Everything else, right now, is a luxury, really.

Can't say I disagree with anything there really.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 04:54:22 PM
hile far from perfect, I think Daddy should be considered a semi-decent way to project son.

Which is fine but you can't say that and then stick your head in the sand about the fact that Cecil didn't have a single year of even a 2.0 WAR after the age of 28.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 04, 2011, 05:04:01 PM
The guy wasn't hitting well enough to be taking up at-bats regardless of position.

I honestly don't think I can agree with that statement. I mean, I know we tend to be slaves to advancement metrics and all, but, when I look at his raw totals for those years, I don't see a guy who was just scraping by. His HR totals were still very good (factoring in the fact he missed almost 80 games between 94 and 95), he was still driving runs home, etc. He was starting to slow down, no doubt, and he was obviously no longer an elite bat, but he was still a productive bat.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 05:12:30 PM
I honestly don't think I can agree with that statement. I mean, I know we tend to be slaves to advancement metrics and all, but, when I look at his raw totals for those years, I don't see a guy who was just scraping by.

But you have to take in the contexts of the offensive totals of the era, the park factors and the reality of what's expected from a 1B offensively and balance the totals against the outs being made. Tons of runs were being scored and a lot of really crappy ballplayers were putting up big numbers. Fielder, in '96, rates below guys like Scott Stahoviak, Julio Franco and John Jaha.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2011, 05:39:06 PM
Suprised they didn't stick with Molina if this was the best they could do.

I'm sure they tried to re-sign Molina, but, he chose to leave for TBay.

I'd actually be pretty surprised if they did try to re-sign him. They still get a supplemental draft choice for him and I have to believe that they value that a little more than the difference between Molina and the Jeroloman/Mathis combo.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: skippy on December 04, 2011, 06:55:02 PM
I think this thread is why a lot of good posters don't post here anymore.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 04, 2011, 10:06:34 PM
Bell, now Reyes for the Marlins. They're making a splash indeed.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 10:44:11 AM
... and maybe Pujols too?  :o At least that's the hot rumour right now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Michael on December 05, 2011, 10:57:39 AM
... and maybe Pujols too?  :o At least that's the hot rumour right now.

Where is this a hot rumour?

Never mind. I am reading it now.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 11:00:13 AM
... and maybe Pujols too?  :o At least that's the hot rumour right now.

Where is this a hot rumour?

ESPN... Seems the Cards are still the favs and the only other team to have a serious chance (currently) is Miami.

Jim Bowden: If the Marlins offer 9 x 27 and the Cards don't move off their offer...Pujols will sign with Marlins
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 11:39:46 AM

The Veterans committee finally elected Ron Santo to the HOF today. Long overdue honor and it's a real shame he passed away last year and didn't get to see it happen.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7318808/ron-santo-elected-baseball-hall-fame (http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7318808/ron-santo-elected-baseball-hall-fame)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 05, 2011, 02:22:48 PM
Buster_ESPNBuster Olney
View of some officials: Blue Jays will be among teams taking biggest hit with new labor agreement, because of shift in revenue sharing.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 02:31:22 PM
Buster_ESPNBuster Olney
View of some officials: Blue Jays will be among teams taking biggest hit with new labor agreement, because of shift in revenue sharing.

Yeah, just reading that now... I wonder just how bad that hit could be. i.e, enough to be a game-changer in terms of how much Roger's spends on players? This I don't know so I'm not getting all bent out of shape over it at this point. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 02:37:31 PM
Buster_ESPNBuster Olney
View of some officials: Blue Jays will be among teams taking biggest hit with new labor agreement, because of shift in revenue sharing.

It's not great but it's hard to argue with the logic there. A team in a market the size of Toronto shouldn't be a low revenue team. Rogers has let them become that in part because of their great deal on the Dome and ignoring the fact that the place, well, sucks.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 05:52:00 PM
Buster_ESPN: Brewers indicating to others they are pretty much out on Prince Fielder, and are moving on. [via Twitter]

The market is probably much bigger than a couple of teams but with that said,  things just got a little more interesting.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 06:17:27 PM
While that's true, his OPS+ in those seasons were 113, 111 and 108 - so, he was still a slightly above average bat through those years, he just really should not have been in the field at all.

Another guy who might not be so crazy to look at as a comparable is Mo Vaughn. He posted an OPS of .980, .993, .866, and .864 at the age of 29, 30, 31, and 32 respectively.  And, like Cecil (probably more so) was still a big threat at the plate. I honestly don't believe any team signing Prince will have to worry much years 1-5. Question is, how many years past that do you want to waste? Know what I mean? 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 06:30:04 PM
Another guy who might not be so crazy to look at as a comparable is Mo Vaughn. 

His last season of a +2.0 WAR was at 30 so, yeah, you're pretty much making the case against Fielder. These guys see their value fall off a cliff at 30.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 06:38:37 PM

And to put that in some perspective, Lyle Overbay only failed to put up a +2.0 WAR once in his entire Blue Jay career.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 06:46:44 PM
Vaughn's oWAR was 1.7 and 1.7 at the age of 31 and 32. He averaged a .865 OPS, hit around .275 and slammed 69 HRs, collecting 225 RBI in those 2 years. I don't know. Seems like pretty strong numbers to me.   
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 06:49:39 PM
Vaughn's oWAR was 1.7 and 1.7 at the age of 31 and 32.

Yeah...you know that's bad, right?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 06:51:24 PM
Vaughn's oWAR was 1.7 and 1.7 at the age of 31 and 32.

Yeah...you know that's bad, right?

 He averaged a .865 OPS, hit around .275 and slammed 69 HRs, collecting 225 RBI in those 2 years... You know that's very good, right?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 05, 2011, 06:52:35 PM
I'm leaning toward an offer of 125m/5 years for Fielder.

Out of line or does anyone think he'd go for that?

Too rich for the Jays?

Sign Papi for two years. Pretty interesting lineup for the Skydome.

My main reason for wanting the Jays to spend now is they have the best hitter in baseball and I don't want him to go to waste.

Trade Lind for a starter, sign a closer?
 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 05, 2011, 06:55:28 PM
I'd love that... Problem is, I don't think he takes 5 years. Like I've said before anything past age 32 for guys like him seem to be not so great. I could live with killing a year or two if it means taking advantage of Bautista's best years. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 06:57:36 PM
He averaged a .865 OPS, hit around .275 and slammed 69 HRs, collecting 225 RBI in those 2 years... You know that's very good, right?

No, because, again, I'm aware of the concept of context. Even if you were inclined to use OPS+, which adjusts to an extent for the context those numbers exist in(a good hitting Angels park, in the highest scoring era in baseball history) you'd see that Vaughn dropped off by 30 points in those years from when he was putting up legitimate value. Factor in the position he was playing and you're dealing with a guy who, and I'll say it again for emphasis, was a noticeably less valuable first baseman than Lyle Overbay.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 07:02:32 PM
My main reason for wanting the Jays to spend now is they have the best hitter in baseball and I don't want him to go to waste.

I don't think it's that urgent. Bautista probably has a couple good years left and I don't think you want to weigh the Franchise down with an anchor of a contract right now. I think there's a lot of talent on the team right now, to the extent that panic moves don't need to be made.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Trolloc on December 05, 2011, 08:20:36 PM
My main reason for wanting the Jays to spend now is they have the best hitter in baseball and I don't want him to go to waste.


I agree with Nik.

The risks involved in signing Fielder are just too big...and I am not sure if this franchise can survive another rebuild in this city.
As Nik mentioned, there is a real chance Fielder regresses early in his likely contract. Unlike other baseball teams, if he ends up with Vernon Well production, we can't just ignore this contract and keeping adding big salaries. His contract could seriously hurt this team for years if it doesn't work out.

I think the Jays are in a great position in the upcoming years. We have one of the best farm systems in baseball and I rather use those assets to attract players with better contracts and lower likelihoods of handicapping this teams spending.
We can't predict Bautista's future production, but, I imagine there is at least a three year window with him. I don't think we are at the "all or nothing" stage yet.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: seahawk on December 05, 2011, 09:51:56 PM
What's this talk about the Jays taking a hit under the revenue sharing provisions of the new CBA?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 05, 2011, 09:56:32 PM
What's this talk about the Jays taking a hit under the revenue sharing provisions of the new CBA?

Apparently there are changes to the revenue sharing formula where teams in big markets but who don't generate a lot of revenue won't get as much as before.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on December 05, 2011, 10:03:24 PM
What's this talk about the Jays taking a hit under the revenue sharing provisions of the new CBA?

Apparently there are changes to the revenue sharing formula where teams in big markets but who don't generate a lot of revenue won't get as much as before.

The only issue I have with that is that fans will come out to games if teams are winning, regardless of being a big-market or small-market team.  Raw population doesn't tell the whole story on the market demographic.  To me, Toronto is not a good baseball market because in general it just isn't a big baseball community.  There are more than enough fans in the city to have an MLB team, but not enough to call it a major market. 

I would like to know what classifies as a smaller market team though.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 05, 2011, 11:54:28 PM
My main reason for wanting the Jays to spend now is they have the best hitter in baseball and I don't want him to go to waste.

I don't think it's that urgent. Bautista probably has a couple good years left and I don't think you want to weigh the Franchise down with an anchor of a contract right now. I think there's a lot of talent on the team right now, to the extent that panic moves don't need to be made.

Would you take Fielder on a 5-year deal?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 06, 2011, 05:36:09 AM
Complete MLB free agent list....some signed, re-signed, and unsigned....

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnmUCqkj4PlegGqyFEQb.AQ5nYcB?slug=jp-passan_ultimate_free_agent_tracker_baseball_110211
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 07:30:58 AM
Would you take Fielder on a 5-year deal?

It depends, obviously. Would I sign him to a copy of Bautista's deal? Absolutely. Would I sign him to a deal at twice what Bautista's making? Probably not. I just don't like your jumbo 20 million dollar a year, 100 million+ contracts for position players. Unless you're getting just an off the charts ball player like A-Rod or Manny or Cabrera in their primes I just don't see those as contracts that work out for teams.

I think it's more or less a moot point though as I'd be stunned if Prince signs for anything south of seven years.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 07:33:13 AM
Pujols day today? That's the buzz... With Miami at the center of it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 11:09:32 AM
ESPN @Buster_ESPN confirming #Marlins have 10 year offer for Pujols. [via Twitter]
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 12:53:39 PM
The Jays have acquired Sergio Santos from the ChiSox for Nestor Molina. Not sure about this one - while Santos has some pretty dominating stuff, Molina is a pretty stiff price to pay for a bullpen arm, even if he is a closer.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 12:55:25 PM
The Jays have acquired Sergio Santos from the ChiSox for Nestor Molina. Not sure about this one - while Santos has some pretty dominating stuff, Molina is a pretty stiff price to pay for a bullpen arm, even if he is a closer.

I'm not sure either... I read a recent Blue Jays prospect ranking and hit had Nestor #2.  :-\
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 01:04:33 PM
Ken_Rosenthal:
#BlueJays like Molina, view him as potential mid-rotation starter. But they get 6 yrs of control on Santos on good contract. #WhiteSox #MLB

I feel a touch better I suppose.

Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 01:05:41 PM
I'm not sure either... I read a recent Blue Jays prospect ranking and hit had Nestor #2.  :-\

Yeah. I mean, there's been talk that he was going to be converted into a closer type any ways, so, by that line of thinking, it's not the end of the world, but, his minor league numbers are very impressive. He's still a couple years away from the bigs, though. This is a bit of a "the future for now" type deal, but, Santos is still pretty young and on a relatively appealing contract. Really going to need to see how this one plays out before I can make a real judgement on it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 01:08:30 PM
I'm not sure either... I read a recent Blue Jays prospect ranking and hit had Nestor #2.  :-\

Yeah. I mean, there's been talk that he was going to be converted into a closer type any ways, so, by that line of thinking, it's not the end of the world, but, his minor league numbers are very impressive. He's still a couple years away from the bigs, though. This is a bit of a "the future for now" type deal, but, Santos is still pretty young and on a relatively appealing contract. Really going to need to see how this one plays out before I can make a real judgement on it.

Yeah, I just posted that Rosenthal tweet... Difficult to predict how it turns out.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Peter D. on December 06, 2011, 01:34:16 PM
Molina's fastball tops out at 88/89?!  For some silly reason that alone makes me more comfortable trading him. 
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 01:37:43 PM

Is he even a significantly better choice than Francisco? Seems like more of the same.

Eh, not a huge deal one way or the other. I remain skeptical about the actual Major League performance of the guys AA acquires though.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 01:46:27 PM
Is he even a significantly better choice than Francisco? Seems like more of the same.

Well, he's younger, cheaper and under contract for longer. I'd say he has better stuff, though, I know that's hardly conclusive. Francisco has better control, though, Santos gets more outs via strikeout. Santos might be harder to get a hit off of (he certainly was last season, at least). All things considered, I think Santos is a wiser choice, though, I concede, in terms of upgrades, it may appear to be more superficially than it is statistically.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 01:49:04 PM
Well, he's younger, cheaper and under contract for longer. I'd say he has better stuff, though, I know that's hardly conclusive. Francisco has better control, though, Santos gets more outs via strikeout. Santos might be harder to get a hit off of (he certainly was last season, at least). All things considered, I think Santos is a wiser choice, though, I concede, in terms of upgrades, it may appear to be more superficially than it is statistically.

Yeah, I saw all that. It strikes me as a tough call to make when you include that Santos includes trading one of the team's highly regarded prospects but, heck, I've never been much for prospect-porn at the best of times.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 01:56:50 PM
It's a departure from the trading for prospects thing I suppose... and we probably save some money by not having to spend on a higher priced FA or closer from another team.... It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) AA does with the money.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 02:00:02 PM
It's a departure from the trading for prospects thing I suppose... and we probably save some money by not having to spend on a higher priced FA or closer from another team.... It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) AA does with the money.

It is, but, it also pretty much shuts the door on Francisco returning (unless he accepts arbitration), which increases the probability of the Jays receiving a compensation pick for him. I'm not sure it's a trade I make, but, I do understand the thinking behind it.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 02:01:30 PM
A stroll down memory lane...

2008/05/13   Claimed by the Minnesota Twins off waivers from the Toronto Blue Jays.

2005/12/27   Blue Jays traded Miguel Batista and Orlando Hudson to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Troy Glaus and Sergio Santos.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 02:06:43 PM
I'm not sure it's a trade I make, but, I do understand the thinking behind it.

That's where I'm at. Unlike Nik, I do like a little prospect-porn here and there but like some of the real stuff, even when I turn the page the other way, I really don't full understand what I'm seeing.  ;D Anyway, point being, the Jays like Santos and the the Sox like Molina... and I'm pretty sure both teams know what they're looking at.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 02:18:53 PM
... and to my point... Scouts don't even agree what they're looking at so yeah, no point in even guessing on what we gave up;

Ken_Rosenthal:
One rival GM told me that his scouts project new #WhiteSox prospect Molina as reliever. If so, not good. #MLB [via Twitter]
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Michael on December 06, 2011, 02:19:25 PM
Ken_RosenthalKen Rosenthal
One rival GM told me that his scouts project new #WhiteSox prospect Molina as reliever. If so, not good. #MLB
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 02:20:21 PM
I will say, I don't really get the extended honeymoon AA is on. I'm fine with people liking the bulk of his moves or being confident in him going forward but he made enough bad decisions last year that the sort of automatic faith strikes me as bizarre.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 02:21:38 PM

Why is it bad if Molina projects out as a reliever?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 02:26:12 PM
Why is it bad if Molina projects out as a reliever?

Because, it just does, okay? Jsut accept it. ;D

Though, I guess, if Molina turns into a run of the mill bullpen arm, trading him for a backend of the bullpen type is probably a step in the wrong direction from Chicago's perspective.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 02:30:42 PM
Though, I guess, if Molina turns into a run of the mill bullpen arm, trading him for a backend of the bullpen type is probably a step in the wrong direction.

Sure. Like I said, I'm never going to be someone who loses their mind over a prospect I've never seen and whose numbers are tough to project.

I just think some people are reaching on this after being in love with Molina as a prospect.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 02:31:53 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm:
Alex Anthopolous told us @Mlbnetorkradio that the Blue Jays are unlikely to sign Prince Fielder because they're not going past 5 yrs for him [via Twitter]

So it sounds like we have (or have tried) to submit a 5 year deal.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 02:36:59 PM
Sure. Like I said, I'm never going to be someone who loses their mind over a prospect I've never seen and whose numbers are tough to project.

I just think some people are reaching on this after being in love with Molina as a prospect.

I think, at least from the perspective of guys like Rosenthal and other media members, it's more to do with criticizing Kenny Williams (and, potentially, justifiably so) than anything else.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 06, 2011, 02:38:21 PM
I think, at least from the perspective of guys like Rosenthal and other media members, it's more to do with criticizing Kenny Williams (and, potentially, justifiably so) than anything else.

I was more referring to people in the Jays blogosphere than media members.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 02:40:12 PM
I think, at least from the perspective of guys like Rosenthal and other media members, it's more to do with criticizing Kenny Williams (and, potentially, justifiably so) than anything else.

I was more referring to people in the Jays blogosphere than media members.

Fair enough. I tend to not read too many Jays blogs.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 06, 2011, 04:08:46 PM
Shulman likes the deal:

DShulman_ESPNDan Shulman
Like the trade the #jays made. Santos has an electric arm, and his contract is very affordable. #bluejays
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Michael on December 06, 2011, 04:39:19 PM
I remember Shulman from his days on the Fan 590. I always liked him.

Actually I think it was still The Fan 1430 back then and I think for a while he was the host (maybe even the original host?) of Prime Time Sports.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Potvin29 on December 06, 2011, 05:53:31 PM
Since you were all waiting for Sean McCormick's opinion.

Quote
Sean_McCormick Sean McCormick

@jamescybulski ...and a 1.10 whip for Santos. the most overlooked stat in baseball. thats a nice number. Great addition to the jays.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 06, 2011, 06:32:16 PM
A stroll down memory lane...

2008/05/13   Claimed by the Minnesota Twins off waivers from the Toronto Blue Jays.

2005/12/27   Blue Jays traded Miguel Batista and Orlando Hudson to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Troy Glaus and Sergio Santos.

For both of these transactions Santos was a SS. He's only been pitching since mid/late 2008.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 06:34:34 PM
A stroll down memory lane...

2008/05/13   Claimed by the Minnesota Twins off waivers from the Toronto Blue Jays.

2005/12/27   Blue Jays traded Miguel Batista and Orlando Hudson to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Troy Glaus and Sergio Santos.

For both of these transactions Santos was a SS. He's only been pitching since mid/late 2008.

AA said today we tried to get him to pitch back when he was a SS with us.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 06, 2011, 06:43:06 PM
Of note (since there was a discussion in this earlier.)

Jays prez Paul Beeston says revenue-sharing changes in new CBA will not affect team spending. "The CBA has not changed anything."shidavidivia twitter on Dec 6, 2011 at 5:28 PM
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 10:04:40 PM
Both Rauch and Francisco sign with the Mets today.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 06, 2011, 10:12:34 PM
Both Rauch and Francisco sign with the Mets today.

So we get picks for both, or only Frank?
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 06, 2011, 10:20:06 PM
Both Rauch and Francisco sign with the Mets today.

So we get picks for both, or only Frank?

Both.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on December 06, 2011, 10:22:04 PM
Both Rauch and Francisco sign with the Mets today.

So we get picks for both, or only Frank?

Both.

The pen needed retooling, but I really would have liked to see Francisco back...he was as good as Santos last year.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Darryl on December 06, 2011, 10:22:44 PM
JP Ricciardi helping the Mets already.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 07, 2011, 07:30:27 AM
The only issue I have with that is that fans will come out to games if teams are winning, regardless of being a big-market or small-market team.  Raw population doesn't tell the whole story on the market demographic.  To me, Toronto is not a good baseball market because in general it just isn't a big baseball community.  There are more than enough fans in the city to have an MLB team, but not enough to call it a major market. 

Well, I think the issue there though, to not look at it from the Jays' perspective for a second, is that it's probably more egregious for a team in a big market to pocket revenue sharing dollars simply because they have a low payroll. This provides a pretty good incentive for a team like the Jays to win.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: L K on December 07, 2011, 07:39:00 AM
The only issue I have with that is that fans will come out to games if teams are winning, regardless of being a big-market or small-market team.  Raw population doesn't tell the whole story on the market demographic.  To me, Toronto is not a good baseball market because in general it just isn't a big baseball community.  There are more than enough fans in the city to have an MLB team, but not enough to call it a major market. 

Well, I think the issue there though, to not look at it from the Jays' perspective for a second, is that it's probably more egregious for a team in a big market to pocket revenue sharing dollars simply because they have a low payroll. This provides a pretty good incentive for a team like the Jays to win.

And yet we have a GM crying "moderate spending" and the President making an about face on his post-season boasting of this mythological 120 million dollar payroll.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Nik on December 07, 2011, 08:03:27 AM
And yet we have a GM crying "moderate spending" and the President making an about face on his post-season boasting of this mythological 120 million dollar payroll.

Well, I'd hold off on that specific criticism until the Jays are a very good team and they're losing players to free agency. I think this may encourage them to spend less right away in free agency but if they realize the only way to grow their revenues is by their own sweat that we'll see improvement.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Michael on December 07, 2011, 11:54:04 AM
The media that covers baseball will now have a dress code. I guess among other things they want to be sure that no "Inez Sainz" situations happen in baseball.

TSN Link (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=382150&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed)
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 07, 2011, 02:01:26 PM
#marlins already in pursuit of prince. Signs indicate cards likely to get pujols
by Jon_Heyman via twitter 2:00 PM

Either way, Miami could be scary.
Title: Re: 2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread
Post by: Sarge on December 07, 2011, 04:50:58 PM
Buerhle to #Marlins: 4 yrs, $58M. #MLB
by Ken_Rosenthal via t