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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 08, 2015, 02:45:39 PM

Title: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 08, 2015, 02:45:39 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/leafs-f-kadri-misses-meeting-sent-home-1.225565

Quote
TORONTO - In the latest turn in the saga of the Toronto Maple Leafs, forward Nazem Kadri was sent home from practice by an unhappy Peter Horachek for missing a team meeting.

When Kadri showed up late to the team's practice facility, Horachek opted to send him home before practice started Sunday morning. Asked why the 24-year-old centre wasn't on time, the Leafs' interim coach said Kadri was "not prepared. It wasn't the snow."

Kadri's absence, on the first day of daylight saving time, came the morning after a 6-1 loss to the St. Louis Blues. Horachek felt his team put forth "no effort" in the blowout defeat.

The Maple Leafs host the New York Islanders on Monday night, and Horachek said Kadri is available to play — "if I want him."

Trevor Smith took Kadri's spot in line rushes at practice between Leo Komarov and Richard Panik. Kadri was the only healthy player who did not skate.

Horachek was seething after the loss to the Blues but waited until the morning to address players. Holding a short but serious practice on a Sunday morning sent his message.

"That's the message: You're going to have to work, you have to be a pro, you have to show up every day," Horachek said. "You can't show up and put half an effort onto the ice."

Horachek said he thinks players "understand where we are and what we have to do."
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 02:48:37 PM
It's unfortunate since Kadri has easily been the hardest working player (or at least forward) on the team recently. A few other players should be getting sent home for missing all these games they haven't given a damn about.

But, whatever. He'll probably be scratched in tomorrows game and we'll all forget about this after.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: L K on March 08, 2015, 03:00:51 PM
We talkin' bout practice?

No accountability for BS performances that people pay money to watch.  But the accountability starts with practice.


I mean, yeah, Kadri needs to be disciplined for this stuff but how about we sit down the Bozak-Kessel-JVR line for doing absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: caveman on March 08, 2015, 03:04:29 PM
sit him out...we need to catch Carolina....
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 08, 2015, 03:14:25 PM
We talkin' bout practice?

No accountability for BS performances that people pay money to watch.  But the accountability starts with practice.


I mean, yeah, Kadri needs to be disciplined for this stuff but how about we sit down the Bozak-Kessel-JVR line for doing absolutely nothing.

I read a note this morning that Horachek sat them briefly in the third last night.  I'm sure that sent a powerful message.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 08, 2015, 03:19:35 PM
It's unfortunate since Kadri has easily been the hardest working player (or at least forward) on the team recently. A few other players should be getting sent home for missing all these games they haven't given a damn about.

I agree
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: moon111 on March 08, 2015, 03:26:22 PM
But the timing couldn't be worst for Kadri to miss this meeting.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 08, 2015, 03:57:28 PM
I'd sit Kessel and JVR, bring up McLaren and Orr, roll them with Sill for 20 minutes a game. Embrace the tank and at least entertain the fans with some pugilism.
Title: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 08, 2015, 04:01:58 PM
Also, regarding the time change.

1 phones and computers address this
2 it was written on the whiteboard in the dressing room last night, mentioned the time change and that they had practice this morning.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 08, 2015, 04:26:54 PM
How will sitting the top line hold them accountable for anything? If you believe that they aren't playing well because they aren't trying, then having them miss meaningless games at the tail end of a train wreck season is a reward, not a punishment. If anything they should play more.

If you truly believe they aren't trying, then they should be sent home for the year and shipped out in the off season. Just don't expect a good return because nobody wants a loser on their team.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 08, 2015, 04:29:06 PM
Should have maybe made them play the whole third period last night?  :)

Regarding Kadri, hopefully just a careless mistake on his part and not a sign of a developing problem. He has been one of the few who looked like he cared the past several weeks.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 08, 2015, 04:32:28 PM
I'm sure it was.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Rob on March 08, 2015, 04:41:43 PM
(http://www.cutesense.com/cutesense/product/04636/enlarge/Hello_Kitty-Bell-Alarm-clock_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 08, 2015, 05:14:05 PM
Also, regarding the time change.

1 phones and computers address this

Not if you use an alarm clock and forget to change it, like me.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 08, 2015, 05:20:06 PM

Also, regarding the time change.

1 phones and computers address this

Not if you use an alarm clock and forget to change it, like me.

What's living in 1979 like? :)
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 05:23:41 PM
I'm just going to assume that Kadri figured that the meeting would be about how awful the entire team played last night and for the past few weeks and he thought "why the heck do I have to be there?".
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: moon111 on March 08, 2015, 05:54:16 PM
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the partying is having a huge heavy hand in all of this.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 06:00:59 PM
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the partying is having a huge heavy hand in all of this.

Has there been any reports of Kadri being a party-guy? Like at all? Ever?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Deebo on March 08, 2015, 07:12:22 PM
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the partying is having a huge heavy hand in all of this.

Has there been any reports of Kadri being a party-guy? Like at all? Ever?

I've heard some things.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: moon111 on March 08, 2015, 08:59:54 PM
It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the partying is having a huge heavy hand in all of this.

Has there been any reports of Kadri being a party-guy? Like at all? Ever?
No.  Total speculation.  Although it's not directed just towards Kadri but the entire team.  Did the Leafs do better on the road because there they're under the management's nose while at a hotel?  How much partying goes on?   Booze?  Drugs?  Lack of sleep?  How is this impacting the game?  My uncle use to drink with an ex-Leaf.  They both died from it.  Sometimes the Fuhr, Salming, Kordic stuff comes out.  For every story you hear, I bet there's dozens you don't hear about.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 09:03:03 PM
Did the Leafs do better on the road because there they're under the management's nose while at a hotel?

The Leafs are 8-21-5 on the road, 18-14-0 at home.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: KW Sluggo on March 08, 2015, 09:40:33 PM
It's unfortunate since Kadri has easily been the hardest working player (or at least forward) on the team recently. A few other players should be getting sent home for missing all these games they haven't given a damn about.

I agree

I disagree.

Whatever the failures of other players may be (and we are all well aware of them), they have nothing to do with this incident. This is not an exec rise in relativism. If it were, we could all agree that they are all less than they should be.

The fact is that after a two month slump of legendary proportions in which most players figuratively fail to appear for games, Kadri actually fails to appear the day following the most vacant fan numbing collective # mail it it games I have ever had the misfortune to see.

Whatever the sins of the other may be then, Kadri's nonchalant I don't give a rat's ass attitude should be considered on its own and not relative to the other turds on this roster.

Kadri needs to know the message he is sending has been received and is not welcome.

As for the rest of them, their turns will come, perhaps not soon enough, but ...

Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 08, 2015, 09:47:10 PM
It's unfortunate since Kadri has easily been the hardest working player (or at least forward) on the team recently. A few other players should be getting sent home for missing all these games they haven't given a damn about.

I agree

I disagree.

Whatever the failures of other players may be (and we are all well aware of them), they have nothing to do with this incident. This is not an exec rise in relativism. If it were, we could all agree that they are all less than they should be.

The fact is that after a two month slump of legendary proportions in which most players figuratively fail to appear for games, Kadri actually fails to appear the day following the most vacant fan numbing collective # mail it it games I have ever had the misfortune to see.

Whatever the sins of the other may be then, Kadri's nonchalant I don't give a rat's ass attitude should be considered on its own and not relative to the other turds on this roster.

Kadri needs to know the message he is sending has been received and is not welcome.

As for the rest of them, their turns will come, perhaps not soon enough, but ...

Nailed it.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 08, 2015, 11:53:25 PM
It's unfortunate since Kadri has easily been the hardest working player (or at least forward) on the team recently. A few other players should be getting sent home for missing all these games they haven't given a damn about.

I agree

I disagree.

Whatever the failures of other players may be (and we are all well aware of them), they have nothing to do with this incident. This is not an exec rise in relativism. If it were, we could all agree that they are all less than they should be.

The fact is that after a two month slump of legendary proportions in which most players figuratively fail to appear for games, Kadri actually fails to appear the day following the most vacant fan numbing collective # mail it it games I have ever had the misfortune to see.

Whatever the sins of the other may be then, Kadri's nonchalant I don't give a rat's ass attitude should be considered on its own and not relative to the other turds on this roster.

Kadri needs to know the message he is sending has been received and is not welcome.

As for the rest of them, their turns will come, perhaps not soon enough, but ...

Nailed it.

Yes.  Horachek's got nothing to lose, and he would do all of us a good turn by truly holding guys accountable when they don't put in a proper effort.  Unfortunately, we wouldn't be able to ice more than 5 or 6 guys if that were the case.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Mike1 on March 09, 2015, 12:34:29 AM
Wouldn't be shocked if Kadri gets sat out in the next game. You can't have players doing this kind of stuff. Horachek has nothing to lose right now & I wouldn't blame him.

You gotta worry about younger players on this roster with all the half-assed play & behaviour that has gone on this year. This isn't what you want young guys soaking up. What are young guys like Reilly picking up in the bigger picture?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Arn on March 09, 2015, 05:44:44 AM
. What are young guys like Reilly picking up in the bigger picture?

Probably loads and loads and loads of really hot women
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 09, 2015, 09:17:30 AM
It's unfortunate since Kadri has easily been the hardest working player (or at least forward) on the team recently. A few other players should be getting sent home for missing all these games they haven't given a damn about.

I agree

I disagree.

Whatever the failures of other players may be (and we are all well aware of them), they have nothing to do with this incident.

If I or we suggested that they had something to do with this incident, you might have had a point.

This is not an exec rise in relativism. If it were, we could all agree that they are all less than they should be.

The fact is that after a two month slump of legendary proportions in which most players figuratively fail to appear for games, Kadri actually fails to appear the day following the most vacant fan numbing collective # mail it it games I have ever had the misfortune to see.

Whatever the sins of the other may be then, Kadri's nonchalant I don't give a rat's ass attitude should be considered on its own and not relative to the other turds on this roster.

Kadri needs to know the message he is sending has been received and is not welcome.

I have no problem with Kadri being disciplined. Never said I did.

As for the rest of them, their turns will come, perhaps not soon enough, but ...

If their turn hadn't arrived before Saturday's game against the Blues, it certainly arrived before that game was over. And I find what some of these guys did (or didn't do) in that game and in the games leading up to that game far, far more troubling than what Kadri did.

I was fortunate enough to see Cup wins in the 60s. I reflected on where I'd place this debacle in my Leafs history. I don't think it's the least talented team by a fair measure. But I think it's my least favorite Leafs team ever ... because they don't seem to give a crap.

In a number of those original six match ups during the season, I swear the intensity and mutual dislike was greater than a number of games sevens I've seen in the last decade. They really wanted to win those games and played their hearts out. And those games were played by many guys who made less money in their entire hockey career than the $122,000 per game Phil Kessel got for sulking on Saturday night.

Makes me wonder how much more of this I want to witness.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 09, 2015, 11:20:42 AM
Sports are weird.  People draw insane conclusions over a person sleeping in and being 20 minutes late to something.  Lack of character! Nonchalant attitude! Doesn't care!

Or, you know, the person was just late to something one time.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 09, 2015, 01:09:41 PM
Sports are weird.  People draw insane conclusions over a person sleeping in and being 20 minutes late to something.  Lack of character! Nonchalant attitude! Doesn't care!

Or, you know, the person was just late to something one time.

Showing up late for a team meeting is one thing.

Don't bother to show up for 30 plus games on the ice is another. I'm not saying Kadri is the team leader in doing that. I am saying players who have been doing that bug me a heck of a lot more.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Al14 on March 09, 2015, 01:18:47 PM
Sports are weird.  People draw insane conclusions over a person sleeping in and being 20 minutes late to something.  Lack of character! Nonchalant attitude! Doesn't care!

Or, you know, the person was just late to something one time.

Showing up late for a team meeting is one thing.

Don't bother to show up for 30 plus games on the ice is another. I'm not saying Kadri is the team leader in doing that. I am saying players who have been doing that bug me a heck of a lot more.

Kadri is not the leader at not competing during games, however, at times, he's been a follower of this trend.  Kadri might have to be considered as one of the players belonging to the rotten core. 
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2015, 03:20:06 PM
Its obviouse that Kadri is a hockey savant, not to bright around the edges elsewhere. Kid probably set his clock back an hour instead of ahead and woke up late.  I put more blame on the clocks shifts in spring and fall than Kadri being anything else but the kid he is.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Frank E on March 09, 2015, 03:35:13 PM
Sports are weird.  People draw insane conclusions over a person sleeping in and being 20 minutes late to something.  Lack of character! Nonchalant attitude! Doesn't care!

Or, you know, the person was just late to something one time.

I know what you mean.  It's almost like people are making assumptions given the lack of information available to them. 
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 09, 2015, 03:46:50 PM
Sports are weird.  People draw insane conclusions over a person sleeping in and being 20 minutes late to something.  Lack of character! Nonchalant attitude! Doesn't care!

Or, you know, the person was just late to something one time.

I know what you mean.  It's almost like people are making assumptions given the lack of information available to them.

We've all been late for one thing or another.  Unfortunately for Kadri, he picked just about the worst possible time to do it.  Given how much Horachek has been blowing up at the team - accusing them of playing soft, having no character, etc. - he probably couldn't have let this slip even if he wanted to.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 09, 2015, 04:07:55 PM
I know what you mean.  It's almost like people are making assumptions given the lack of information available to them. 

My assumption then is that he was so angered with the lack of effort the team gave on Saturday that he spent the entire night tossing and turning and only got a couple hours of shut-eye which is why he slept through his alarm.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Al14 on March 10, 2015, 08:39:06 AM
I know what you mean.  It's almost like people are making assumptions given the lack of information available to them. 

My assumption then is that he was so angered with the lack of effort the team gave on Saturday that he spent the entire night tossing and turning and only got a couple hours of shut-eye which is why he slept through his alarm.

Are you trying to say that his give-a-shit meter hasn't flat lined yet?   ;)
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 10:41:57 AM
Hoo boy.

Quote
@IanShantz 

Shanahan says Kadri won't play next two games.

Quote
@IanShantz 

"There's more to this (then late for meeting."

Quote
@IanShantz 

Shanahan says "there's a history here" regarding Kadri. "Incidents like this won't be tolerated."
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: herman on March 11, 2015, 10:49:16 AM
Management has Horachek's back.

It's a pretty telling move. You don't discipline a player you don't want to keep/develop to this extent.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on March 11, 2015, 10:52:28 AM
He was arguably their best all-round player this year and he's an RFA this Summer.

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 10:53:04 AM
He was arguably their best all-round player this year and he's an RFA this Summer.

Good luck with that.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Nik Bethune on March 11, 2015, 10:53:23 AM

It's not like Shanahan to draw such insane conclusions.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Nik Bethune on March 11, 2015, 11:05:01 AM
Management has Horachek's back.

It's a pretty telling move. You don't discipline a player you don't want to keep/develop to this extent.

Sure you do. Obviously we don't know the whole story here but what the Leafs do with Kadri here does not just apply to Kadri, it's also sending a message to everyone else in the organization.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 11:06:32 AM
Well that obviously changes things. Kadri's a heck of a player, and it still seems like the Leafs have him in their long-term plans. Hopefully whatever it is that caused this is something Nazem can fix.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: L K on March 11, 2015, 11:24:41 AM
I certainly hope a little bit of context comes out of this.  Right now this adds a whole crap tonne of chaos to a team that is already a joke.  I get sending messages to the organization but the notion that they come through the punishment of a single player concerns me.  Or this is all justified against Kadri but I'd certainly like some context to amount to a 3-game suspension.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 11:29:21 AM
I certainly hope a little bit of context comes out of this.  Right now this adds a whole crap tonne of chaos to a team that is already a joke.  I get sending messages to the organization but the notion that they come through the punishment of a single player concerns me.  Or this is all justified against Kadri but I'd certainly like some context to amount to a 3-game suspension.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a bunch of little things coupled with the most recent thing and they want to nip it in the bud completely because they want to keep him long-term.

That's completely guessing though.  I don't think it really helps or changes things to tell the media/fans everything though - it's a story regardless.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 11:38:35 AM
Full quotes from Shanahan:

"Naz is an important part of our future," Shanahan told reporters. "...We expect a certain level of professionalism from him. It's time for him to start making better decisions. There's a history here."

“There’s more to this, obviously,” Shanahan said. “If this were just a case of Nazem being 15 minutes late for a meeting, one time, you could probably sweep this under the rug and handle it internally.”

“…Naz is an important part of our future. We like Nazem Kadri. His teammates like him. We expect a certain level of professionalism. It’s time for him to start making better decisions. There’s a history here.”


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/shanahan-says-kadri-will-sit-for-two-more-games/article23403257/
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Rob on March 11, 2015, 11:40:31 AM
On Sportsnet the other night Kypreos seemed to allude to there being a history of these types of things going on with Kadri, and they were kept quiet.

This team is a train wreck.  I find it hard to believe they would suspend Kadri for 3 games without just cause, more then just using him to send a message to the rest of the team.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 11:51:19 AM
Video of the Shanahan presser: http://www.tsn.ca/video/shanahan-there-s-a-history-here-1.227862
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 12:09:20 PM
Since when does a team suspend one of its best players for undisclosed reasons? Particularly when you have an entire team (with Kadri as a major exception) which has utterly mailed it in for most of the season and which has dealt poorly with the media--both of which have had a far greater impact on the Leafs' reputation than being late for a meaningless meeting between a bunch of bad hockey players and a lame duck coach.

Obviously I don't know the details, but this seems like a piss poor way of dealing with whatever dispute they had. The only message it sends to the rest of the team is that their complete indifference and lack of pride all season long is tolerable, but being late for practice (and whatever other goofy little things Shanahan has dreamed Kadri did) is worthy of a severe suspension.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 12:13:46 PM
It's also fitting that Shanahan has woken up from his season-long slumber--a season in which he has said little to nothing about the Leafs' long or short-term strategy as a franchise--to hold a discipline press conference.

Someone should remind him that he's being paid to be president of the Leafs, not the organization disciplinarian.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 11, 2015, 12:17:21 PM
Since when does a team suspend one of its best players for undisclosed reasons? Particularly when you have an entire team (with Kadri as a major exception) which has utterly mailed it in for most of the season and which has dealt poorly with the media--both of which have had a far greater impact on the Leafs' reputation than being late for a meaningless meeting between a bunch of bad hockey players and a lame duck coach.

Obviously I don't know the details, but this seems like a piss poor way of dealing with whatever dispute they had. The only message it sends to the rest of the team is that their complete indifference and lack of pride all season long is tolerable, but being late for practice (and whatever other goofy little things Shanahan has dreamed Kadri did) is worthy of a severe suspension.

There must be something going on with him that is really irking management, and maybe they figured the press would find out and they wanted to put it out there first.  Who knows what he did, but maybe he's going out and partying it up and was late for practice because he was hung over.  Who knows, but in a year that is a circus it must have been bad enough to add another ring to the show.

I have a great employee, who was chronically 5 minutes late for work.  I cut her slack all the time, but eventually I was so bothered by her bad habits that I took a stand with her.  I liked her enough that I challenged her to change or lose her job, rather than just firing her.  Maybe that's what the Leafs are doing with Kadri.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 12:18:29 PM
It's also fitting that Shanahan has woken up from his season-long slumber--a season in which he has said little to nothing about the Leafs' long or short-term strategy as a franchise--to hold a discipline press conference.

Someone should remind him that he's being paid to be president of the Leafs, not the organization disciplinarian.

Shanahan's job isn't to be in front of the press everyday.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 11, 2015, 12:19:58 PM
If Kadri's attitude is really as bad as this situation may be suggesting, I highly doubt he will change it just to stay with this train wreck of a franchise.

Trade him.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on March 11, 2015, 12:23:16 PM
He was arguably their best all-round player this year and he's an RFA this Summer.

Good luck with that.

What do you mean?

I mean it's very possible that he'd take this poorly.

Maybe he becomes more difficult to sign. Maybe he doesn't want to give up UFA years now (long term contract) as a result. Maybe he demands a trade, I don't know.

It just seems very odd to me that they'd choose to do this all at once.

It doesn't seem as if he's getting 3 games for missing a team meeting. It seems as though they made their point and gave him one (and he apologized, blah blah) for that and now they are saying, "Oh yeah and all that other stuff is bothering us too, you know from before, so you're out for the next 2 games".

Why didn't they deal with the problem (or the "history" as Shanahan put it) when it came up?

Just seems poorly handled IMO.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 12:30:13 PM
He was arguably their best all-round player this year and he's an RFA this Summer.

Good luck with that.

What do you mean?

I mean it's very possible that he'd take this poorly.

Maybe he becomes more difficult to sign. Maybe he doesn't want to give up UFA years now (long term contract) as a result. Maybe he demands a trade, I don't know.

It just seems very odd to me that they'd choose to do this all at once.

It doesn't seem as if he's getting 3 games for missing a team meeting. It seems as though they made their point and gave him one (and he apologized, blah blah) for that and now they are saying, "Oh yeah and all that other stuff is bothering us too, you know from before, so you're out for the next 2 games".

Why didn't they deal with the problem (or the "history" as Shanahan put it) when it came up?

Just seems poorly handled IMO.

Maybe they were trying to give him the opportunity to fix things himself and when this happened it was the last straw.  Who knows, and I have no idea how common or uncommon it is league-wide.  My guess would be there are tons of incidents yearly that you never hear about.

But my comment was more along the lines of thinking that he's a RFA so the team has control no matter what.  He can be upset and sit out if he wants, but I doubt that's a strong career move right now.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 12:31:02 PM
It's also fitting that Shanahan has woken up from his season-long slumber--a season in which he has said little to nothing about the Leafs' long or short-term strategy as a franchise--to hold a discipline press conference.

Someone should remind him that he's being paid to be president of the Leafs, not the organization disciplinarian.

Shanahan's job isn't to be in front of the press everyday.

I swear I read at another point in the season where someone was complaining that Shanahan spoke to the press too much.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 12:31:18 PM
It's also fitting that Shanahan has woken up from his season-long slumber--a season in which he has said little to nothing about the Leafs' long or short-term strategy as a franchise--to hold a discipline press conference.

Someone should remind him that he's being paid to be president of the Leafs, not the organization disciplinarian.

Shanahan's job isn't to be in front of the press everyday.

Not sure where I implied that it was? His job is to oversee hockey operations. Being totally invisible while the team has one its worst seasons ever is not a particularly effective way of doing this.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 12:36:31 PM
Not sure where I implied that it was? His job is to oversee hockey operations. Being totally invisible while the team has one its worst seasons ever is not a particularly effective way of doing this.

Ok, then I'll say that being in front of the press everyday (or at all really) doesn't change how effective he is at his job, like at all. I remember when Burke was hired in the same role in Calgary he said that he was looking forward to being in the shadow a little bit more and not having to be front and centre. That's more of the GM's responsibility.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 12:45:59 PM
Not sure where I implied that it was? His job is to oversee hockey operations. Being totally invisible while the team has one its worst seasons ever is not a particularly effective way of doing this.

Ok, then I'll say that being in front of the press everyday (or at all really) doesn't change how effective he is at his job, like at all. I remember when Burke was hired in the same role in Calgary he said that he was looking forward to being in the shadow a little bit more and not having to be front and centre. That's more of the GM's responsibility.

Being in the shadow is one thing. But when your team is floundering, popping out every once in a while to talk about how you plan to right your ship is part of the job description, same as the CEO of any company. It gives me a bad taste in my mouth to see this be Shanahan's only real contact with the media in the middle of this disaster of a season.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on March 11, 2015, 12:54:23 PM
He was arguably their best all-round player this year and he's an RFA this Summer.

Good luck with that.

What do you mean?

I mean it's very possible that he'd take this poorly.

Maybe he becomes more difficult to sign. Maybe he doesn't want to give up UFA years now (long term contract) as a result. Maybe he demands a trade, I don't know.

It just seems very odd to me that they'd choose to do this all at once.

It doesn't seem as if he's getting 3 games for missing a team meeting. It seems as though they made their point and gave him one (and he apologized, blah blah) for that and now they are saying, "Oh yeah and all that other stuff is bothering us too, you know from before, so you're out for the next 2 games".

Why didn't they deal with the problem (or the "history" as Shanahan put it) when it came up?

Just seems poorly handled IMO.

Maybe they were trying to give him the opportunity to fix things himself and when this happened it was the last straw.  Who knows, and I have no idea how common or uncommon it is league-wide.  My guess would be there are tons of incidents yearly that you never hear about.

But my comment was more along the lines of thinking that he's a RFA so the team has control no matter what.  He can be upset and sit out if he wants, but I doubt that's a strong career move right now.

Yeah I don't know the specifics so it's hard to really judge the move.

I can't really recall any incidents of good young players being scratched (on a horrific team)for lack of professionalism. For bad play, lack a defensive awareness type things, sure, a game here a game there. Multiple games in a row? Again, nothing comes to mind, and I follow a lot of the league through fantasy everyday.

To me, the Leafs need as many good players as they can get right now (which is why I mentioned him being one of the best players on the team this year). Kadri won't necessarily damage his career by sitting out. Didn't happen to Johansen or O'Reilly.

I'd hate to see him demand max money out of spite, or decide that he simply doesn't want to play here anymore (I'm sure some players are feeling that way on this squad).
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 01:01:13 PM
To me, the Leafs need as many good players as they can get right now (which is why I mentioned him being one of the best players on the team this year). Kadri won't necessarily damage his career by sitting out. Didn't happen to Johansen or O'Reilly.

I mean sitting out long-term.  Neither of those two players did it, and O'Reilly seems to be a pretty unique situation.  I doubt that after this suspension by the team that sitting out a significant portion of the next season would increase his value to other teams if he was looking for a big payday that the Leafs would be unwilling to offer.  I don't know the rules exactly but I believe Leafs could just go to arbitration with him anyway.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on March 11, 2015, 01:03:36 PM
To me, the Leafs need as many good players as they can get right now (which is why I mentioned him being one of the best players on the team this year). Kadri won't necessarily damage his career by sitting out. Didn't happen to Johansen or O'Reilly.

I mean sitting out long-term.  Neither of those two players did it, and O'Reilly seems to be a pretty unique situation.  I doubt that after this suspension by the team that sitting out a significant portion of the next season would increase his value to other teams if he was looking for a big payday that the Leafs would be unwilling to offer.  I don't know the rules exactly but I believe Leafs could just go to arbitration with him anyway.

Ok, I don't know the rules either. If that's the case then they hold all the cards in the near term. It could still potentially affect the long term prospects of Kadri with the Leafs.

I'd like him here long term.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 11, 2015, 01:11:40 PM
Not sure where I implied that it was? His job is to oversee hockey operations. Being totally invisible while the team has one its worst seasons ever is not a particularly effective way of doing this.

Ok, then I'll say that being in front of the press everyday (or at all really) doesn't change how effective he is at his job, like at all. I remember when Burke was hired in the same role in Calgary he said that he was looking forward to being in the shadow a little bit more and not having to be front and centre. That's more of the GM's responsibility.

Being in the shadow is one thing. But when your team is floundering, popping out every once in a while to talk about how you plan to right your ship is part of the job description, same as the CEO of any company. It gives me a bad taste in my mouth to see this be Shanahan's only real contact with the media in the middle of this disaster of a season.

So far Shanahan has moved expiring contracts, and implied that ownership has green-lighted a complete rebuild.  After watching the Leafs for decades, I'm pretty happy with that.  I'm also happy with a guy that stays in the shadows and spends a full season watching, taking things in and taking notes.  There's  not really much he can do before the season ends.  I will wait to pass any sort of judgement on Shanahan until I see what the Leafs have in their pocket when they hit the draft floor.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 01:14:19 PM
Being in the shadow is one thing. But when your team is floundering, popping out every once in a while to talk about how you plan to right your ship is part of the job description, same as the CEO of any company. It gives me a bad taste in my mouth to see this be Shanahan's only real contact with the media in the middle of this disaster of a season.

This isn't his first contact with the media this season. He had a 14-minute state-of-the-union type press conference in January to discuss what the teams plans are and what they expect moving forward. He had one at the very beginning of the season as well and he'll almost certainly have another at the end of the season where he'll further talk about the teams rebuild plans. That's enough for someone in his position. The GM is basically his right-hand and Nonis hold a press conference for every move the Leafs make. Any other questions/issues can be discussed then.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Rebel_1812 on March 11, 2015, 01:15:13 PM
It's also fitting that Shanahan has woken up from his season-long slumber--a season in which he has said little to nothing about the Leafs' long or short-term strategy as a franchise--to hold a discipline press conference.

Someone should remind him that he's being paid to be president of the Leafs, not the organization disciplinarian.

He held a press conference after randy was fired and said if the players don't play better they will be moved.  I have to agree with that move as it gave the players a chance to play better and let them know that consequences were waiting.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 11, 2015, 01:22:48 PM

I'd hate to see him demand max money out of spite, or decide that he simply doesn't want to play here anymore (I'm sure some players are feeling that way on this squad).

Well, if he doesn't want to play here, good riddance. And if he is going the "spite" route because he was called out/punished for what management considers unprofessional behavior, good riddance. It's not like he's an unreplaceable offensive machine out there.

I want this team built around talented, hard working, professional athletes who want to be in Toronto. If Kadri fits that description, great. If not, find someone else.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 01:29:30 PM
Not sure where I implied that it was? His job is to oversee hockey operations. Being totally invisible while the team has one its worst seasons ever is not a particularly effective way of doing this.

Ok, then I'll say that being in front of the press everyday (or at all really) doesn't change how effective he is at his job, like at all. I remember when Burke was hired in the same role in Calgary he said that he was looking forward to being in the shadow a little bit more and not having to be front and centre. That's more of the GM's responsibility.

Being in the shadow is one thing. But when your team is floundering, popping out every once in a while to talk about how you plan to right your ship is part of the job description, same as the CEO of any company. It gives me a bad taste in my mouth to see this be Shanahan's only real contact with the media in the middle of this disaster of a season.

So far Shanahan has moved expiring contracts, and implied that ownership has green-lighted a complete rebuild.  After watching the Leafs for decades, I'm pretty happy with that.  I'm also happy with a guy that stays in the shadows and spends a full season watching, taking things in and taking notes.  There's  not really much he can do before the season ends.  I will wait to pass any sort of judgement on Shanahan until I see what the Leafs have in their pocket when they hit the draft floor.

In broad strokes I don't mind that approach either. But if you're going to sit back and watch, do that. Don't call out one of your best players--one of the only players who has given an honest effort all season long--in the media. Because that leaves people wondering where he's been while other big-name and big-money players mail it in. The whole situation has been bungled on the management side, it seems to me.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Al14 on March 11, 2015, 01:30:14 PM

I'd hate to see him demand max money out of spite, or decide that he simply doesn't want to play here anymore (I'm sure some players are feeling that way on this squad).

Well, if he doesn't want to play here, good riddance. And if he is going the "spite" route because he was called out/punished for what management considers unprofessional behavior, good riddance. It's not like he's an unreplaceable offensive machine out there.

I want this team built around talented, hard working, professional athletes who want to be in Toronto. If Kadri fits that description, great. If not, find someone else.

Well said!  Shape up Kadri, or ship out!
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 11, 2015, 01:31:35 PM
In broad strokes I don't mind that approach either. But if you're going to sit back and watch, do that. Don't call out one of your best players--one of the only players who has given an honest effort all season long--in the media. Because that leaves people wondering where he's been while other big-name and big-money players mail it in. The whole situation has been bungled on the management side, it seems to me.

The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 01:37:55 PM
In broad strokes I don't mind that approach either. But if you're going to sit back and watch, do that. Don't call out one of your best players--one of the only players who has given an honest effort all season long--in the media. Because that leaves people wondering where he's been while other big-name and big-money players mail it in. The whole situation has been bungled on the management side, it seems to me.

The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

I think the better lesson is - team rules are extremely black and white whereas determining someone's effort level with any consistency is far more of a grey area.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 01:38:37 PM
In broad strokes I don't mind that approach either. But if you're going to sit back and watch, do that. Don't call out one of your best players--one of the only players who has given an honest effort all season long--in the media. Because that leaves people wondering where he's been while other big-name and big-money players mail it in. The whole situation has been bungled on the management side, it seems to me.

The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

That's how I see it too.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 01:44:48 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

We also have no idea what his other offences were and how serious they were.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: L K on March 11, 2015, 01:47:55 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

I don't think that's it's entirely related to the on-ice product, but I think it absolutely is being influenced by the performance of the team too.  I mean Kulemin came out before the Islanders game and said that his punishment for missing a practice was a fine and no suspension.  If the team is in a playoff race I extremely doubt that that Kadri gets a 3+-game suspension.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 01:49:48 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

I don't think that's it's entirely related to the on-ice product, but I think it absolutely is being influenced by the performance of the team too.  I mean Kulemin came out before the Islanders game and said that his punishment for missing a practice was a fine and no suspension.  If the team is in a playoff race I extremely doubt that that Kadri gets a 3+-game suspension.

But Shanahan specifically said there were other past things that contributed to this suspension, which wouldn't have been the case for Kulemin (that we are aware of).  Shanahan said that if this was the only incident then it would have been nowhere near such a big deal and Kadri would have only had to buy the team dinner or something like that.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: freer on March 11, 2015, 01:51:22 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

I don't think that's it's entirely related to the on-ice product, but I think it absolutely is being influenced by the performance of the team too.  I mean Kulemin came out before the Islanders game and said that his punishment for missing a practice was a fine and no suspension.  If the team is in a playoff race I extremely doubt that that Kadri gets a 3+-game suspension.

He is a "scratch" He still gets paid correct?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: L K on March 11, 2015, 01:58:03 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

I don't think that's it's entirely related to the on-ice product, but I think it absolutely is being influenced by the performance of the team too.  I mean Kulemin came out before the Islanders game and said that his punishment for missing a practice was a fine and no suspension.  If the team is in a playoff race I extremely doubt that that Kadri gets a 3+-game suspension.

But Shanahan specifically said there were other past things that contributed to this suspension, which wouldn't have been the case for Kulemin (that we are aware of).  Shanahan said that if this was the only incident then it would have been nowhere near such a big deal and Kadri would have only had to buy the team dinner or something like that.

And from the outside perspective, I find the lack of information disappointing.  While we aren't entitled to the nitty gritty.  Is it just a frequent habit of Kadri being late, not paying attention in meetings?  Is he constantly breaking curfew?  Has he done something inappropriate to one of the players/families in the dressing room that has caused a problem.  I just find that with a team with as poor an image as this one has, making vague suspensions just seems to draw in more questioning and something that might be a bunch of minor infractions is just going to draw a bunch of questioning to an already poisoned lockerroom.

And to be honest, if it was needing this kind of punishment, why not just come out and let it be known rather than suspend him for the Islanders game...then wait until this morning to suspend him more.  It just repopulates a story that could potentially be over and done with.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 11, 2015, 02:08:27 PM
It's about time some sort of 'rules' were enforced, and Shanahan has done just that.  As we've read, Kadri's lateness is not the only issue here.  Obviously there were other transgressions at play here.

I like Nazem, he has tried adapting to Horaohek's system perhaps better than some of his other teammates, plus he carries with him plenty of talent, which we're already seen displayed as the team's best centre.

In the real world,  usually an employee would have been relieved (fired) of his or her duties, or something thereof to a certain extent depending on the situation, etcetera.

In the sports world, different organizations react in their own manner either via a fine, demotion, trade, or what have you.  Considering that Kadri has been called an important part of the team by Shanahan and well-liked by his teammates, and is still at a young age, the 'punishment' cannot be deemed all that harsh when compared to other situations.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Strangelove on March 11, 2015, 02:10:59 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

I don't think that's it's entirely related to the on-ice product, but I think it absolutely is being influenced by the performance of the team too.  I mean Kulemin came out before the Islanders game and said that his punishment for missing a practice was a fine and no suspension.  If the team is in a playoff race I extremely doubt that that Kadri gets a 3+-game suspension.

But Shanahan specifically said there were other past things that contributed to this suspension, which wouldn't have been the case for Kulemin (that we are aware of).  Shanahan said that if this was the only incident then it would have been nowhere near such a big deal and Kadri would have only had to buy the team dinner or something like that.

And from the outside perspective, I find the lack of information disappointing.  While we aren't entitled to the nitty gritty.  Is it just a frequent habit of Kadri being late, not paying attention in meetings?  Is he constantly breaking curfew?  Has he done something inappropriate to one of the players/families in the dressing room that has caused a problem.  I just find that with a team with as poor an image as this one has, making vague suspensions just seems to draw in more questioning and something that might be a bunch of minor infractions is just going to draw a bunch of questioning to an already poisoned lockerroom.

And to be honest, if it was needing this kind of punishment, why not just come out and let it be known rather than suspend him for the Islanders game...then wait until this morning to suspend him more.  It just repopulates a story that could potentially be over and done with.

I basically agree with all of this. In theory, suspending a guy for breaking team rules is fine. But to begin with one game, making Kadri talk to the media on that basis, and then escalate it later without warming, has the effect of throwing your player under the bus and undermining an already terrible dressing room situation.

In the wake of the Phaneuf-Lupul scandal, feeding the media with more vaguely worded innuendo about your players does nothing but make a bad situation worse. It reeks of mismanagement.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Nik Bethune on March 11, 2015, 02:22:22 PM
I basically agree with all of this. In theory, suspending a guy for breaking team rules is fine. But to begin with one game, making Kadri talk to the media on that basis, and then escalate it later without warming, has the effect of throwing your player under the bus and undermining an already terrible dressing room situation.

In the wake of the Phaneuf-Lupul scandal, feeding the media with more vaguely worded innuendo about your players does nothing but make a bad situation worse. It reeks of mismanagement.

Except we don't know what went on between Kadri and the team between that initial suspension and now.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 11, 2015, 02:23:30 PM

The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

I don't think that's it's entirely related to the on-ice product, but I think it absolutely is being influenced by the performance of the team too.  I mean Kulemin came out before the Islanders game and said that his punishment for missing a practice was a fine and no suspension.  If the team is in a playoff race I extremely doubt that that Kadri gets a 3+-game suspension.

But Shanahan specifically said there were other past things that contributed to this suspension, which wouldn't have been the case for Kulemin (that we are aware of).  Shanahan said that if this was the only incident then it would have been nowhere near such a big deal and Kadri would have only had to buy the team dinner or something like that.

And from the outside perspective, I find the lack of information disappointing.  While we aren't entitled to the nitty gritty.  Is it just a frequent habit of Kadri being late, not paying attention in meetings?  Is he constantly breaking curfew?  Has he done something inappropriate to one of the players/families in the dressing room that has caused a problem.  I just find that with a team with as poor an image as this one has, making vague suspensions just seems to draw in more questioning and something that might be a bunch of minor infractions is just going to draw a bunch of questioning to an already poisoned lockerroom.

And to be honest, if it was needing this kind of punishment, why not just come out and let it be known rather than suspend him for the Islanders game...then wait until this morning to suspend him more.  It just repopulates a story that could potentially be over and done with.

I basically agree with all of this. In theory, suspending a guy for breaking team rules is fine. But to begin with one game, making Kadri talk to the media on that basis, and then escalate it later without warming, has the effect of throwing your player under the bus and undermining an already terrible dressing room situation.

In the wake of the Phaneuf-Lupul scandal, feeding the media with more vaguely worded innuendo about your players does nothing but make a bad situation worse. It reeks of mismanagement.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 02:33:19 PM
In the wake of the Phaneuf-Lupul scandal, feeding the media with more vaguely worded innuendo about your players does nothing but make a bad situation worse. It reeks of mismanagement.

And going into details about Kadri's issues likely does nothing but drag Nazem through the mud even more than they have to. I'm sure the Leafs are much more concerned about Kadri's future than they are with their image right now.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 11, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
I do find it a little odd that they first announced one game, now have re-announced as "at least 2 more games". Sounds almost like they're asking Kadri to change something immediately and will base the exact suspension length on how he responds.

Then again, Shanahan always seemed to enjoy suspending Leaf players when he was the league's discipline czar, perhaps he just misses that.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on March 11, 2015, 02:53:53 PM
The lesson seems to be, you can check out on the ice as long as you're on time for practices and meetings.

This really has absolutely nothing to do with on-ice results.

We also have no idea what his other offences were and how serious they were.

I'm guessing that if they were serious he would've already been a scratch.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 02:55:14 PM
I do find it a little odd that they first announced one game, now have re-announced as "at least 2 more games". Sounds almost like they're asking Kadri to change something immediately and will base the exact suspension length on how he responds.

To be clear, the Leafs never actually originally said how many games Kadri would be sitting. Maybe they just felt that they shouldn't rush into any punishments and it took them some time to ultimately decide how many games he'd be out.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Frank E on March 11, 2015, 03:10:31 PM
Oh good.  I was hoping to see people passing judgment on the team without knowing anything about what Kadri has done.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Bullfrog on March 11, 2015, 03:23:28 PM
And from the outside perspective, I find the lack of information disappointing.  While we aren't entitled to the nitty gritty.  Is it just a frequent habit of Kadri being late, not paying attention in meetings?  Is he constantly breaking curfew?  Has he done something inappropriate to one of the players/families in the dressing room that has caused a problem.  I just find that with a team with as poor an image as this one has, making vague suspensions just seems to draw in more questioning and something that might be a bunch of minor infractions is just going to draw a bunch of questioning to an already poisoned lockerroom.

And to be honest, if it was needing this kind of punishment, why not just come out and let it be known rather than suspend him for the Islanders game...then wait until this morning to suspend him more.  It just repopulates a story that could potentially be over and done with.

I disagree. I think these issues are team issues and there should be no obligation to discuss them in the media. There are perhaps some advantages to discussing them, but I personally have zero interest in the reason for the suspension. I think because of the current situation it's even less important to discuss.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on March 11, 2015, 03:30:32 PM
Did Kadri go Full Tlusty?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 03:46:33 PM
Haven't seen this mentioned here yet, and I missed it in earlier coverage:

Quote
During Shanahan’s rookie season (1987-88), New Jersey uberboss Lou Lamoriello suspended him three games for lateness. The Hall of Famer never forgot it. He referenced it when making the announcement.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/leafs-shanahan-never-forgot-suspension/
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 11, 2015, 03:49:46 PM
I can't really recall any incidents of good young players being scratched (on a horrific team)for lack of professionalism. For bad play, lack a defensive awareness type things, sure, a game here a game there. Multiple games in a row? Again, nothing comes to mind, and I follow a lot of the league through fantasy everyday.

To circle back to this, probably won't be exact examples, but see my post above about Shanahan as a rookie as well as some more recent examples (again from the above-linked Friedman article):

Quote
Joffrey Lupul admitted Monday he was once benched for a game while with Anaheim under similar circumstances, but no one knew.

Last night, the Dallas Stars sat Cody Eakin for disciplinary reasons in Philadelphia. Lindy Ruff and Jim Nill declined further comment, saying it was dealt with internally. Barely a peep. Eakin should send a gift basket.

One coach texted, “This happens more often than you think. The coaches are constantly trying to protect the players, but also have accountability… which is a very, very hard balance.”

They’ve spent a lot effort on Kadri. Ron Wilson would never comment about it, but players used to say he would constantly meet privately with him, trying to explain the opportunity he had to be successful in Toronto if he took on- and off-ice work more seriously. Dallas Eakins was harder on him in the AHL than any other player, for the same reason.

Also, that Ron Wilson stuff is totally new considering the heat he took for being tough on Kadri.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Frank E on March 11, 2015, 04:02:39 PM
I always thought that Wilson got a unnecessarily rough ride with the media here in Toronto...then again, I also thought Carlyle got an overly rough ride considering the roster he had to work with. 
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 11, 2015, 06:41:50 PM
I do find it a little odd that they first announced one game, now have re-announced as "at least 2 more games". Sounds almost like they're asking Kadri to change something immediately and will base the exact suspension length on how he responds.

To be clear, the Leafs never actually originally said how many games Kadri would be sitting. Maybe they just felt that they shouldn't rush into any punishments and it took them some time to ultimately decide how many games he'd be out.

Just thinking out loud.  Perhaps Kadri has a habit of being late, and has been warned multiple times.  So, they decide to punish him for one game and sit him against the Islanders.  After that decision/announcement, Kadri gets up in front of the media and says (paraphrasing) this is the first time something like this has ever happened in his career.  Shanahan sees/hears that and blows his stack, realizing Kadri has learned nothing, and lays down further punishment.

Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Zee on March 11, 2015, 09:02:16 PM
Bad for Kadri and team morale, good for tanking.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: moon111 on March 11, 2015, 09:18:41 PM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety. 
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 12, 2015, 07:55:15 AM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety.

He's 24 years old, 25 next October. I realize in some respects, that's still somewhat young but they're paying him millions to perform. Shanahan is basically saying "grow up". And the fact that they've effectively been saying this to him for years without a reliable response ... that's sad. Doesn't speak well for his character. Some talent appears to be there but it's currently not a solid character you can reliably build around. That's something this team needs.

I'm close to concluding: sign him to a short term deal and trade him before it's over so you recover something of value.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 12, 2015, 12:02:56 PM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety.

He's 24 years old, 25 next October. I realize in some respects, that's still somewhat young but they're paying him millions to perform. Shanahan is basically saying "grow up". And the fact that they've effectively been saying this to him for years without a reliable response ... that's sad. Doesn't speak well for his character. Some talent appears to be there but it's currently not a solid character you can reliably build around. That's something this team needs.

I'm close to concluding: sign him to a short term deal and trade him before it's over so you recover something of value.

I wonder, if the Leafs end up having to go to arbitration with Kadri, do they trade him?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 12, 2015, 12:04:19 PM
Some talent appears to be there

That's an understatement really.  He's performed very well the past three seasons, comparable to some big names without getting the same offensive opportunities/minutes.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 12, 2015, 12:15:46 PM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety.

He's 24 years old, 25 next October. I realize in some respects, that's still somewhat young but they're paying him millions to perform. Shanahan is basically saying "grow up". And the fact that they've effectively been saying this to him for years without a reliable response ... that's sad. Doesn't speak well for his character. Some talent appears to be there but it's currently not a solid character you can reliably build around. That's something this team needs.

I'm close to concluding: sign him to a short term deal and trade him before it's over so you recover something of value.

My impression is that he doesn't lack for self-confidence, and maybe has an excess of it.  Not necessarily a bad thing in an ultra-competitive environment, but if it translates into a sense of entitlement and thus to lack of work effort, you have a problem.  And in Kadri's case, it needs to be tempered by the fact that his achievements to date have been modest at best.  He's far from having proved Burke right for taking him so high.

Kadri is a puzzler.  One part of me agrees with you, but the fact that he's put in more of a consistent effort game in and game out this season (IMO) also speaks to some character solidity.  Of course, I don't know what Shanahan knows and whatever Kadri's doing that's getting him hot water is not what you want to see out of a guy that we all hoped would be a cornerstone. 

I guess for me, if the return was very very good, I'd move him.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: mr grieves on March 12, 2015, 12:20:00 PM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety.

He's 24 years old, 25 next October. I realize in some respects, that's still somewhat young but they're paying him millions to perform. Shanahan is basically saying "grow up". And the fact that they've effectively been saying this to him for years without a reliable response ... that's sad. Doesn't speak well for his character. Some talent appears to be there but it's currently not a solid character you can reliably build around. That's something this team needs.

I'm close to concluding: sign him to a short term deal and trade him before it's over so you recover something of value.

Worked out well for Boston.

No, there's not Seguin talent there. But there's a heckuva lot of talent there: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/trading-kadri-mistake-maple-leafs/
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 12, 2015, 12:22:33 PM
McKenzie mentioned a Horachek quote multiple times on TSN yesterday, something along the lines of he wasn't just late, "he wasn't prepared to practice." and said "draw from that what you will" I get the feeling Naz might be partying a little too hard and they want him to focus more on being prepared professionally.

It's speculation, but I get the sense that's what they were alluding to.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 12, 2015, 12:28:39 PM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety.

He's 24 years old, 25 next October. I realize in some respects, that's still somewhat young but they're paying him millions to perform. Shanahan is basically saying "grow up". And the fact that they've effectively been saying this to him for years without a reliable response ... that's sad. Doesn't speak well for his character. Some talent appears to be there but it's currently not a solid character you can reliably build around. That's something this team needs.

I'm close to concluding: sign him to a short term deal and trade him before it's over so you recover something of value.

Worked out well for Boston.

No, there's not Seguin talent there. But there's a heckuva lot of talent there: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/trading-kadri-mistake-maple-leafs/


Burtch has been saying most of the above for quite some time and I agree completely, the part I quote below is quite remarkable and gets absolutely no coverage in the media who seem quite happy to repeat the same blowhard rhetoric without considering his production comparables. That's just poor journalism, people happy to spew forth an opinion without structuring it carefully.

Quote
The last column of the above With or Without You (WOWY) chart highlights the net difference between the impacts of Kadri and his teammates on each other. Looking at the numbers, it's clear that Kadri's impact outweighs that of his compatriots across the board.

If we were to compare Kadri to his peers around the NHL in terms of his offensive production, it might surprise people where he sits in terms of his offence over the past four years. Kadri has produced 2.1 points per 60 minutes at 5v5 since 2011-12. The other NHL centres with the same point production over the same time frame are Joe Thornton, Henrik Sedin, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Eric Staal and Nathan MacKinnon. Not exactly a group of skaters you'd want to ship out of town.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: mr grieves on March 12, 2015, 12:48:42 PM
Kadri is a puzzler.  One part of me agrees with you, but the fact that he's put in more of a consistent effort game in and game out this season (IMO) also speaks to some character solidity.  Of course, I don't know what Shanahan knows and whatever Kadri's doing that's getting him hot water is not what you want to see out of a guy that we all hoped would be a cornerstone. 

That's where I am. Teams discipline players for breaking rules. Kadri broke some rules and got disciplined. The end -- but this idea that, because it's being done publicly, the infractions must be so horrible that they can only be symptoms of a deeply flawed, fundamentally and irretrievably immature -- no, selfish -- character that we just can't have on this team is... a bit weird. Because I look at what he's done on the ice, and I see a guy I'd want on my team. Full stop.

So we're left with "well, management knows the full story, way more than they're letting on, and we couldn't possibly..." and I dunno. Didn't I hear a lot, when curious personnel decisions were made over the last several years, about smart professionals with access to all the relevant information making sound judgments based on things we couldn't possibly know? And the team got worse and worse?

I'm starting to think most of what they know that we don't is just run-of-mill office gossip, workplace culture clashes, corporate common sense, and the rest of the stuff that makes companies and schools and movie studios and police departments run poorly.

Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 12, 2015, 12:54:00 PM
I agree with you for the most part Mr. G, but Bobby Mac made an interesting comment, that whatever the issue is, they've likely tried to address it internally and it has not worked, hence the 'public shaming' for lack of a better term, they hope this will give him the shake he really needs to round out his off ice issues.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: mr grieves on March 12, 2015, 12:54:43 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.
 
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 12, 2015, 12:56:39 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.

For what it's worth, I think Kadri is twice the player Steen is, offensively at least.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Nik Bethune on March 12, 2015, 01:10:27 PM
That's where I am. Teams discipline players for breaking rules. Kadri broke some rules and got disciplined. The end -- but this idea that, because it's being done publicly, the infractions must be so horrible that they can only be symptoms of a deeply flawed, fundamentally and irretrievably immature -- no, selfish -- character that we just can't have on this team is... a bit weird. Because I look at what he's done on the ice, and I see a guy I'd want on my team. Full stop.

I agree that it's hard to buy that the public nature of this adds to the gravitas of it. If the situation was such that Kadri needed to be benched for three games in the eyes of management then no matter what the media in this city would know that was a story that needed following up on regardless of whatever stated reason they gave. It's just smarter for the team to get out in front of that and give an official version of things before you started getting stories in the paper that started with "whispers say" or "word has it" about why Kadri was benched.

So we're left with "well, management knows the full story, way more than they're letting on, and we couldn't possibly..." and I dunno. Didn't I hear a lot, when curious personnel decisions were made over the last several years, about smart professionals with access to all the relevant information making sound judgments based on things we couldn't possibly know? And the team got worse and worse?

That seems about as fair a categorization of "what you heard" as me saying that you seemed pretty certain that the team would drastically improve once Carlyle was gone.

It's just fundamentally true that this decision is being made with more information than what we have. That doesn't mean it's the right one, just that our criticisms of it are being made while largely in the dark.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2015, 01:29:29 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.
Maybe...but it depends on (1) what they can get for Kadri, and (2) what is really going on behind the scenes. None of us have enough information to really assess that.

And...it's possible that Kadri would mature more quickly in a different environment (more stable/mature team, think Detroit for example) than here. If he really is unprofessional in his approach, the negative impact of that on other young players might outweigh the risk that he matures and develops once traded elsewhere. Kind of like a player with a bad contract, you may have to accept less than "fair market" to trade him and free up the cap space. Only in this case, you're not freeing up cap space but removing a possible negative influence. You might have to sacrifice on the trade return but might be better off for a team of developing young players in the long term.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: freer on March 12, 2015, 01:32:11 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.

For what it's worth, I think Kadri is twice the player Steen is, offensively at least.

Are you kidding, when has Kadri come close to 30 goals never, and never will.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 12, 2015, 01:35:13 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.

For what it's worth, I think Kadri is twice the player Steen is, offensively at least.

Are you kidding, when has Kadri come close to 30 goals never, and never will.

Just to remove that silly reasoning, new argument is that Kulemin is twice the player Steen is, offensively at least.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: mr grieves on March 12, 2015, 01:37:29 PM
It's just fundamentally true that this decision is being made with more information than what we have. That doesn't mean it's the right one, just that our criticisms of it are being made while largely in the dark.

Except I haven't criticized the decision. Only this tendency to make the vacuum created by the asymmetry of knowledge a place to project their darkest thoughts about Kadri or greatest resentments about the team's run of futility. My point is that whatever it is we don't know mightn't actually be related to what we care about -- watching a good hockey team -- so all we can do is evaluate what we see. That Kadri-- good, gritty, skilled, competitive Ontario boy, eh?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Coco-puffs on March 12, 2015, 01:39:33 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.

For what it's worth, I think Kadri is twice the player Steen is, offensively at least.

Are you kidding, when has Kadri come close to 30 goals never, and never will.

2012-2013 (lockout shortened season) He was on pace for a 30 goals. Not saying he ever will (especially if he doesn't improve his professionalism), but he has the talent to do it.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: sampson on March 12, 2015, 01:44:40 PM
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62760

Look at Steen's early numbers. Similar
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: mr grieves on March 12, 2015, 01:46:11 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.
Maybe...but it depends on (1) what they can get for Kadri, and (2) what is really going on behind the scenes. None of us have enough information to really assess that.

And...it's possible that Kadri would mature more quickly in a different environment (more stable/mature team, think Detroit for example) than here. If he really is unprofessional in his approach, the negative impact of that on other young players might outweigh the risk that he matures and develops once traded elsewhere. Kind of like a player with a bad contract, you may have to accept less than "fair market" to trade him and free up the cap space. Only in this case, you're not freeing up cap space but removing a possible negative influence. You might have to sacrifice on the trade return but might be better off for a team of developing young players in the long term.

I'm less concerned about "possible negative influences" than actual negative influences on the team's chances at being successful -- not having enough good hockey players. Did Lee Stepniack bring a greater maturity to Toronto? Did it matter in the least?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 12, 2015, 01:48:49 PM
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=62760

Look at Steen's early numbers. Similar

Yep.  So Kadri's first real season was the shortened one when he was 22.

Kadri's first 3 seasons PPG: 0.92, 0.64, 0.56

Steen PPG from age 22 on: 0.43, 0.55, 0.35, 0.35 (traded), 0.69, 0.71, 0.65, 0.68, 0.91, 0.84

Obviously that is without a lot of context.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 12, 2015, 01:51:08 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.
Maybe...but it depends on (1) what they can get for Kadri, and (2) what is really going on behind the scenes. None of us have enough information to really assess that.

And...it's possible that Kadri would mature more quickly in a different environment (more stable/mature team, think Detroit for example) than here. If he really is unprofessional in his approach, the negative impact of that on other young players might outweigh the risk that he matures and develops once traded elsewhere. Kind of like a player with a bad contract, you may have to accept less than "fair market" to trade him and free up the cap space. Only in this case, you're not freeing up cap space but removing a possible negative influence. You might have to sacrifice on the trade return but might be better off for a team of developing young players in the long term.

I'm less concerned about "possible negative influences" than actual negative influences on the team's chances at being successful -- not having enough good hockey players. Did Lee Stepniack bring a greater maturity to Toronto? Did it matter in the least?

It's one of those things that people always want to believe is true without a lot of evidence to back it up.  Like it's just accepted and if you are a successful team that must mean everyone is a positive influence, etc.  I don't know if it's true or not, just that nobody ever seems to bring up anything concrete to back it up other than "this team is losing + this player has issues, therefore bad influence," to simplify it.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2015, 02:00:53 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.
Maybe...but it depends on (1) what they can get for Kadri, and (2) what is really going on behind the scenes. None of us have enough information to really assess that.

And...it's possible that Kadri would mature more quickly in a different environment (more stable/mature team, think Detroit for example) than here. If he really is unprofessional in his approach, the negative impact of that on other young players might outweigh the risk that he matures and develops once traded elsewhere. Kind of like a player with a bad contract, you may have to accept less than "fair market" to trade him and free up the cap space. Only in this case, you're not freeing up cap space but removing a possible negative influence. You might have to sacrifice on the trade return but might be better off for a team of developing young players in the long term.

I'm less concerned about "possible negative influences" than actual negative influences on the team's chances at being successful -- not having enough good hockey players. Did Lee Stepniack bring a greater maturity to Toronto? Did it matter in the least?

It's one of those things that people always want to believe is true without a lot of evidence to back it up.  Like it's just accepted and if you are a successful team that must mean everyone is a positive influence, etc.  I don't know if it's true or not, just that nobody ever seems to bring up anything concrete to back it up other than "this team is losing + this player has issues, therefore bad influence," to simplify it.
Admittedly difficult to quantify and again, we don't know the whole story. I'm not saying he's a problem, or that he should be traded. Just that it might be better for the team in the long term, especially if they go the full tear-down and rebuild route.

And...some teams might be better able to handle a "bad influence" or two. It depends on the makeup of the team, if there are strong leaders, etc.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 12, 2015, 02:03:49 PM
Also, the impulse to dump Kadri because you're rebuilding and need to clear out some "culture" just feels a like setting yourself to be lamenting the reprise of the Alex Steen in a couple years.
Maybe...but it depends on (1) what they can get for Kadri, and (2) what is really going on behind the scenes. None of us have enough information to really assess that.

And...it's possible that Kadri would mature more quickly in a different environment (more stable/mature team, think Detroit for example) than here. If he really is unprofessional in his approach, the negative impact of that on other young players might outweigh the risk that he matures and develops once traded elsewhere. Kind of like a player with a bad contract, you may have to accept less than "fair market" to trade him and free up the cap space. Only in this case, you're not freeing up cap space but removing a possible negative influence. You might have to sacrifice on the trade return but might be better off for a team of developing young players in the long term.

I'm less concerned about "possible negative influences" than actual negative influences on the team's chances at being successful -- not having enough good hockey players. Did Lee Stepniack bring a greater maturity to Toronto? Did it matter in the least?

It's one of those things that people always want to believe is true without a lot of evidence to back it up.  Like it's just accepted and if you are a successful team that must mean everyone is a positive influence, etc.  I don't know if it's true or not, just that nobody ever seems to bring up anything concrete to back it up other than "this team is losing + this player has issues, therefore bad influence," to simplify it.
Admittedly difficult to quantify and again, we don't know the whole story. I'm not saying he's a problem, or that he should be traded. Just that it might be better for the team in the long term, especially if they go the full tear-down and rebuild route.

And...some teams might be better able to handle a "bad influence" or two. It depends on the makeup of the team, if there are strong leaders, etc.

I just don't think it's something we can accurately pass judgments on, especially when each situation is likely unique.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 12, 2015, 02:05:26 PM
The Leafs could get more out of Kadri if he were a true professional.  Even not getting enough sleep is letting himself, the team, and fans down.  Must be awful tempting to be partying at his age, with his money, with his notoriety.

He's 24 years old, 25 next October. I realize in some respects, that's still somewhat young but they're paying him millions to perform. Shanahan is basically saying "grow up". And the fact that they've effectively been saying this to him for years without a reliable response ... that's sad. Doesn't speak well for his character. Some talent appears to be there but it's currently not a solid character you can reliably build around. That's something this team needs.

I'm close to concluding: sign him to a short term deal and trade him before it's over so you recover something of value.

My impression is that he doesn't lack for self-confidence, and maybe has an excess of it.  Not necessarily a bad thing in an ultra-competitive environment, but if it translates into a sense of entitlement and thus to lack of work effort, you have a problem.  And in Kadri's case, it needs to be tempered by the fact that his achievements to date have been modest at best.  He's far from having proved Burke right for taking him so high.

Kadri is a puzzler.  One part of me agrees with you, but the fact that he's put in more of a consistent effort game in and game out this season (IMO) also speaks to some character solidity.  Of course, I don't know what Shanahan knows and whatever Kadri's doing that's getting him hot water is not what you want to see out of a guy that we all hoped would be a cornerstone. 

I guess for me, if the return was very very good, I'd move him.

This team isn't likely to accomplish much over the next three years so to me, I'd be looking at the long range. Is Kadri an integral part of their future? Internally, I have to wonder if they're convinced he is. He has talent but does he have the mental make up? Externally, they've said he is a key part of their future. They have to.

If I were them, what I might do, even if I intended to eventually move him: is make him the #1 center, let him rack up points and along with them, his trade value and then dump him if he's not going to work out mentally. something like that.

I might also do that for some of the others who do not appear to have a long term future - like Kessel and Phaneuf. I don't think either of those guys would return much right now. But a year or two from now, if the team is performing better, their value would be up while their contract risk lessened because it's shorter.

As this group hasn't been very generous with their efforts, I have little trouble being a little more mercenary with them and their futures. And that goes for Kadri as well.

That also gives Kadri the option to grow up and perform as an elite player in this league. It's still up to him. But if he's to remain an immature enigma, then there's nothing wrong with positioning the club to go through the motions to maximize a return on his talent.

That's a hunk of the consideration I'd be making for next year's roster - to maximize talent return - because so few of the current roster will be around by the time a rebuild makes them competitive. And we're in no gigantic rush because they're not going to be contending for a Cup anytime soon.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Nik Bethune on March 12, 2015, 02:27:18 PM
Except I haven't criticized the decision. Only this tendency to make the vacuum created by the asymmetry of knowledge a place to project their darkest thoughts about Kadri or greatest resentments about the team's run of futility. My point is that whatever it is we don't know mightn't actually be related to what we care about -- watching a good hockey team -- so all we can do is evaluate what we see. That Kadri-- good, gritty, skilled, competitive Ontario boy, eh?

Sure and for the record I'm not in the trade Kadri camp. But I think the people that are would look at this in a slightly bigger picture sense than simply whether or not Kadri is a good player and are looking at things that fall into your most hated of realms, hard to quantify but still real.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 12, 2015, 02:36:50 PM
Lets hope he gets it together, as he does have the potential to be a great player.
Hopefully the new coach will be able to reach him.
Even Shanaplan admitted he was off the beam at one point.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2015, 02:43:25 PM
Lets hope he gets it together, as he does have the potential to be a great player.
Hopefully the new coach will be able to reach him.
Even Shanaplan admitted he was off the beam at one point.
I agree but Shanahan said he was 19 when it happened with him.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Potvin29 on March 12, 2015, 02:45:09 PM
Lets hope he gets it together, as he does have the potential to be a great player.
Hopefully the new coach will be able to reach him.
Even Shanaplan admitted he was off the beam at one point.
I agree but Shanahan said he was 19 when it happened with him.

Yeah but in NEW JERSEY. Eech.  You stay younger in Toronto.  Shanahan probably lived in the suburbs with 2 kids and a minivan by then.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 12, 2015, 05:18:53 PM
look at our own kids, acting like idiots into there 20's.  We were working or paying our own ways at that age.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Britishbulldog on March 12, 2015, 06:13:52 PM

And...some teams might be better able to handle a "bad influence" or two. It depends on the makeup of the team, if there are strong leaders, etc.

Yeah, Nashville is a perfect example.  They took Neal from Pittsburg after he was having hissy fits and they also signed Ribero after being bought out by the cash strapped Coyotes because he was poor in character.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: mr grieves on March 13, 2015, 10:56:27 AM
Quote
3. Toronto wants to keep Nazem Kadri rather than trade him, but, after the Maple Leafs increased their self-imposed suspension, one of the questions being asked was, “If they did want to trade him, did they just damage his value?” After a little bit of investigation, the answer appears to be no.

Past teammates and coaches, and even opponents, respect his ability and his compete level. That’s the highest compliment he gets: his fearlessness and willingness to stand up against anyone at any time. However, whatever worries the Maple Leafs away from the rink, it’s not a secret to the rest of the NHL. That’s why his value hasn’t dropped; because the teams I queried have the same concerns. Brendan Shanahan must know that, too.

link: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-video-review-tabled-gm-meetings/
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 13, 2015, 02:47:37 PM
Kadri talks for the first time since Shanahan's scrum: http://www.tsn.ca/kadri-of-course-i-m-embarrassed-1.230051

Quotes from @markmasters:

"I'm embarrassed about it. It's a lesson learned. That's how I'm going to approach it. I'm a little bit humiliated."

"It's a lesson that couldn't be more clear. I have no ill feelings for anyone else. I don't blame anyone else."

"A bit of a wake-up call. Certain things won't be tolerated. Shanny made it clear what has to be done. Things have to change."

"What I know is I want to be part of the [Leafs] future & they expressed the same feeling so, for that, I'm thankful"

Kadri says meeting with management ended in "positive way"; Nazem says experience has been an "eye-opener"

What, specifically, will Kadri change off the ice? "Preparation & being ready & understanding that professionalism is huge"

Kadri on playing in Toronto: "A lot of times you're forced to grow up a lot faster than you really want to"

Kadri on his off-ice issues: "I can't really go into specifics"; says some rumours out there are "untrue"

Kadri: "Obviously, things have to change and, given time, those changes will happen"

Kadri: "You can whine about it or accept your consequences & take responsibility & move forward & it makes you a better person"
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: L K on March 13, 2015, 02:57:36 PM
He's saying the right things.   Too bad he didn't take the Clarkson approach and blame it on the team.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 13, 2015, 06:23:09 PM
Good for him, sounds like he is starting to get the message. I like what he is saying.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Al14 on March 13, 2015, 08:59:25 PM
Good for him, sounds like he is starting to get the message. I like what he is saying.

Is he really getting the message, or, is he just saying all the right things to give everyone the impression he gets it?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 13, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
Good for him, sounds like he is starting to get the message. I like what he is saying.

Is he really getting the message, or, is he just saying all the right things to give everyone the impression he gets it?

I think he should get the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 14, 2015, 10:54:27 AM
Ya we were all young once and made our share of immature mistakes. Hell my wife claims I only grew up a bit when I was 55.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TDotMassive on March 14, 2015, 11:02:26 AM
look at our own kids, acting like idiots into there 20's.  We were working or paying our own ways at that age.

as well... retirement age is increasing, as life expectancy does.  We are growing older and older, timeframes for everything are being stretched out.  Having a kid in your 30s is normal now, whereas 50 years ago there was something wrong with you if you wern't married with kids by 25.  It's a different world... wait until life expectancy breaks 90 or 100, it will change even further and more drastically.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 14, 2015, 11:16:17 AM
look at our own kids, acting like idiots into there 20's.  We were working or paying our own ways at that age.

as well... retirement age is increasing, as life expectancy does.  We are growing older and older, timeframes for everything are being stretched out.  Having a kid in your 30s is normal now, whereas 50 years ago there was something wrong with you if you wern't married with kids by 25.  It's a different world... wait until life expectancy breaks 90 or 100, it will change even further and more drastically.

I believe it's the book series red mars, blue mars, green mars that has a human life expectancy over 500 years.  Think about what that would do to the human race at a social level.  Would you be able to do everything?  Would you be able to take years and then play hockey, or become a doctor.  Then you have the population problems.  Living longer would be a crisis the same as our garbage disposal problems.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 14, 2015, 11:22:29 AM
I've seen it predicted that the first human to live to 150 had already been born.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Bender on March 14, 2015, 11:26:19 AM
look at our own kids, acting like idiots into there 20's.  We were working or paying our own ways at that age.

as well... retirement age is increasing, as life expectancy does.  We are growing older and older, timeframes for everything are being stretched out.  Having a kid in your 30s is normal now, whereas 50 years ago there was something wrong with you if you wern't married with kids by 25.  It's a different world... wait until life expectancy breaks 90 or 100, it will change even further and more drastically.
Some people are idiots and some aren't. I left home at 23 after uni and live a pretty responsible lifestyle. I know people in their 30s who live at home and others who abuse their bodies with bad food and alcohol. It really just depends.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 14, 2015, 11:34:23 AM
and Patrick that man was born 103 years ago..LOL 8)
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 15, 2015, 09:06:39 AM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: L K on March 15, 2015, 09:34:41 AM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...

Ron Wilson really needs to go away.  I don't really care for the guys who come out of the woodwork an start retroactively backtalking.  Much less a guy who openly admits an axe to grind and references a 49 game stint with the Leafs on his proof that Nazem didn't listen to him.  Wilson's a blowhard.  I don't care for Cherry in the least because he rarely makes sense and is usually wrong when you can understand what he says, but his constant "I don't kick things when they are down" (spoiler alert, he does) would be some good advice for some of the idiots running the broadcast  and sports media.  Where was Wilson before the collapse.  Coming out after the fact, openly admitting a bias and then spouting off stuff in a vague enough way to be impossible to dispute but also not providing anything concrete is useless click-baiting. 

I've lost interest in the Leafs and it took a hell of a lot to get me to that point.  But I lost interest in the Toronto sports media long before that.  Adding more of this useless garbage only pushes me farther away from that.  I have been cable free for a few years now and use NHL Gamecenter with a US account to watch Leafs games.  I don't watch TSN.  I don't go to their website anymore, I'm completely done with the shoddy "journalism" around the Leafs. 

I'm happy to read blogs and catch the stories through those and the message board but I'm just tired of not only real negativity but contrived stories to keep people who have long since become irrelevant in the sporting world relevant.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri)
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Rebel_1812 on March 15, 2015, 09:36:22 AM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...

doesn't surprise me wilson and kadri had difficulties.  First of all, wilson had the terrible idea of playing him at the wing and then there was how kadri spoke of randy.  He had nothing but good things to say about randy.  Truth be told randy gave kadri a much better chance to succeed then wilson.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Madferret on March 15, 2015, 09:50:51 AM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...

Ron Wilson really needs to go away.  I don't really care for the guys who come out of the woodwork an start retroactively backtalking.  Much less a guy who openly admits an axe to grind and references a 49 game stint with the Leafs on his proof that Nazem didn't listen to him.  Wilson's a blowhard.  I don't care for Cherry in the least because he rarely makes sense and is usually wrong when you can understand what he says, but his constant "I don't kick things when they are down" (spoiler alert, he does) would be some good advice for some of the idiots running the broadcast  and sports media.  Where was Wilson before the collapse.  Coming out after the fact, openly admitting a bias and then spouting off stuff in a vague enough way to be impossible to dispute but also not providing anything concrete is useless click-baiting. 

I've lost interest in the Leafs and it took a hell of a lot to get me to that point.  But I lost interest in the Toronto sports media long before that.  Adding more of this useless garbage only pushes me farther away from that.  I have been cable free for a few years now and use NHL Gamecenter with a US account to watch Leafs games.  I don't watch TSN.  I don't go to their website anymore, I'm completely done with the shoddy "journalism" around the Leafs. 

I'm happy to read blogs and catch the stories through those and the message board but I'm just tired of not only real negativity but contrived stories to keep people who have long since become irrelevant in the sporting world relevant.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri)

5 out 7 CDN teams chasing playoffs for the first time in how long (ever?) but let's get another opinion piece on what's wrong with the Leafs. I wish more Leaf fans were like you L K - the media is still the way it is because most Leaf fans get some sort of sick validation from it and click click click
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 09:58:57 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Madferret on March 15, 2015, 10:01:53 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 10:03:59 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

Being a Sens fan i just deduced you were into garbage.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Joe S. on March 15, 2015, 10:15:10 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

You sure take enough time to complain about it.

I know more about your trolling opinion on the Leafs than anything else.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Madferret on March 15, 2015, 10:17:31 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

Being a Sens fan i just deduced you were into garbage.

What a burn! Well done!
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Madferret on March 15, 2015, 10:25:32 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

You sure take enough time to complain about it.

I know more about your trolling opinion on the Leafs than anything else.

Just so I get this straight: personal attacks are cool but saying anything disparaging against the Leafs isn't and makes you a troll -  that's the message here right? Should put that up somewhere in the banner.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 10:26:57 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

You sure take enough time to complain about it.

I know more about your trolling opinion on the Leafs than anything else.

Just so I get this straight: personal attacks are cool but saying anything disparaging against the Leafs isn't and makes you a troll -  that's the message here right? Should put that up somewhere in the banner.

Showing up and trolling makes you a troll.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Madferret on March 15, 2015, 10:30:16 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

You sure take enough time to complain about it.

I know more about your trolling opinion on the Leafs than anything else.

Just so I get this straight: personal attacks are cool but saying anything disparaging against the Leafs isn't and makes you a troll -  that's the message here right? Should put that up somewhere in the banner.

Showing up and trolling makes you a troll.

I agreed with L K on the ridiculousness of the media tell me again how that makes me a troll?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Joe S. on March 15, 2015, 10:30:22 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

You sure take enough time to complain about it.

I know more about your trolling opinion on the Leafs than anything else.

Just so I get this straight: personal attacks are cool but saying anything disparaging against the Leafs isn't and makes you a troll -  that's the message here right? Should put that up somewhere in the banner.

How did I attack you personally?
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 10:32:20 AM
Theyre just giving the people what they want. Not just Leafs fans but people who love to hate them, like yourself. Maybe if YOU stop click click clicking they'll write about some teams nobody cares about.

You're kidding yourself if you think I read any of that garbage

You sure take enough time to complain about it.

I know more about your trolling opinion on the Leafs than anything else.

Just so I get this straight: personal attacks are cool but saying anything disparaging against the Leafs isn't and makes you a troll -  that's the message here right? Should put that up somewhere in the banner.

Showing up and trolling makes you a troll.

I agreed with L K on the ridiculousness of the media tell me again how that makes me a troll?

Go back and read what you wrote and tell me again how you're not a troll.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 15, 2015, 10:34:34 AM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...

Ron Wilson really needs to go away.  I don't really care for the guys who come out of the woodwork an start retroactively backtalking.  Much less a guy who openly admits an axe to grind and references a 49 game stint with the Leafs on his proof that Nazem didn't listen to him.  Wilson's a blowhard.  I don't care for Cherry in the least because he rarely makes sense and is usually wrong when you can understand what he says, but his constant "I don't kick things when they are down" (spoiler alert, he does) would be some good advice for some of the idiots running the broadcast  and sports media.  Where was Wilson before the collapse.  Coming out after the fact, openly admitting a bias and then spouting off stuff in a vague enough way to be impossible to dispute but also not providing anything concrete is useless click-baiting. 

I've lost interest in the Leafs and it took a hell of a lot to get me to that point.  But I lost interest in the Toronto sports media long before that.  Adding more of this useless garbage only pushes me farther away from that.  I have been cable free for a few years now and use NHL Gamecenter with a US account to watch Leafs games.  I don't watch TSN.  I don't go to their website anymore, I'm completely done with the shoddy "journalism" around the Leafs. 

I'm happy to read blogs and catch the stories through those and the message board but I'm just tired of not only real negativity but contrived stories to keep people who have long since become irrelevant in the sporting world relevant.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri)

Tried to watch some last night. I still have cable (though getting close to getting rid of a bunch of it). Had to change the channel - they were so bad, I couldn't stand to watch it. Flipped back to a round table at intermission. Elliotte Friedman I have time for - there are still a few I don't mind. But Kypreos and Cox along with Stroumboulopoulos (on hockey)? I just don't have time for them. Couldn't even watch the intermission. Sad. I did watch some of the Calgary game later to get "my fix".

I feel a little like Ron Wilson with some of my posts. I'm kicking them from the bleachers when they're down. I can handle inept but I can't handle the lack of effort and bundled with that, a set of contracts that are going to be a real burden for some years to come. It's as bleak a time as I can recall and I've been watching for over 50 years. I don't feel like being silent about that. I'm close to angry. So if the media tees off on them a little, it isn't bothering me as much because I think there's some folks who deserve it.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 10:37:03 AM
I don't think the contracts will be such a burden. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the Leafs will be able to move a couple of them at least, at the draft or before the start of next year. Also they SHOULD be a lower payroll team for the next few years. They'll need some big contracts to reach the cap floor.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Madferret on March 15, 2015, 10:46:12 AM
I don't think the contracts will be such a burden. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the Leafs will be able to move a couple of them at least, at the draft or before the start of next year. Also they SHOULD be a lower payroll team for the next few years. They'll need some big contracts to reach the cap floor.

That doesn't really make any sense - on one hand you're saying they'll easily move the big contracts that no team realistically is going to go near with a pole and then on the other hand you're saying they'll need some big contracts to get to the cap floor.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 15, 2015, 10:49:22 AM
I don't think the contracts will be such a burden. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the Leafs will be able to move a couple of them at least, at the draft or before the start of next year. Also they SHOULD be a lower payroll team for the next few years. They'll need some big contracts to reach the cap floor.

Right now, in my opinion (and in the opinion of others), the only way Kessel and Phaneuf (for example) return anything in terms of notable talent is if they eat dollars off their contracts. Often, a rebuild gets jump started by flipping the older talent into younger prospects. These contracts constrain that from happening as well as it might have.

The likely effect is it will lengthen the time it will take the Leafs to recover from this mess. It's depressing. We've stepped into multiple piles of crap and some of it is going to stick to our shoes for some time to come.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 10:50:03 AM
I don't think the contracts will be such a burden. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the Leafs will be able to move a couple of them at least, at the draft or before the start of next year. Also they SHOULD be a lower payroll team for the next few years. They'll need some big contracts to reach the cap floor.

That doesn't really make any sense - on one hand you're saying they'll easily move the big contracts that no team realistically is going to go near with a pole and then on the other hand you're saying they'll need some big contracts to get to the cap floor.

I said they'll move SOME (a couple) and I didn't say easily.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 10:56:21 AM
I don't think the contracts will be such a burden. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the Leafs will be able to move a couple of them at least, at the draft or before the start of next year. Also they SHOULD be a lower payroll team for the next few years. They'll need some big contracts to reach the cap floor.

Right now, in my opinion (and in the opinion of others), the only way Kessel and Phaneuf (for example) return anything in terms of notable talent is if they eat dollars off their contracts. Often, a rebuild gets jump started by flipping the older talent into younger prospects. These contracts constrain that from happening as well as it might have.

The likely effect is it will lengthen the time it will take the Leafs to recover from this mess. It's depressing. We've stepped into multiple piles of crap and some of it is going to stick to our shoes for some time to come.

So what? Like I said they'll probably need money to reach the cap floor. And even if they don't, it's not like you get a bonus for not spending to the cap. The only advantage to not doing that as a rebuilding team is to be able to eat bad contracts, but isn't that what we're trying to avoid?
They're not trying to improve the team right away. Realistically the Leafs will be rebuilding for another decade or so. They really don't need the cap space now or any time soon.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 15, 2015, 11:11:23 AM
I think the contracts (both cap hit and length) and recent performance will negatively impact potential trade returns. Kessel should net the best return as his contract isn't that bad for a guy who is consistently top 5 in league scoring. The question other GMs will have to answer is, is his performance the second half of this season evidence of a downward trend or major character flaw that could negatively impact their teams, or is it just an aberration.

Phaneuf, Bozak and Lupul, if traded, will probably net less than we would hope as compared to if they had better contracts. Management will have to decide if the returns are worth it or if some of these players should be kept around.

I say blow it up, get what you can, and don't look back. Accept that you've made a bunch of bad deals, clean up the mess, and start over.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 11:14:09 AM
I say blow it up, get what you can, and don't look back. Accept that you've made a bunch of bad deals, clean up the mess, and start over.

I say that sounds like a darn good idea.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Highlander on March 15, 2015, 11:33:55 AM
There are a few key pieces here and I believe Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner, JVR, Holland, Komorav are players we move forward with. I think Phil should be given a chance to reset next year. Phanuef, Polak, Lupul, Bernier, Bozak  should all go. Keep Riemer to anchor the kid goalies into the league.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: moon111 on March 15, 2015, 11:34:41 AM
There is limited players available.  Some of these Leafs might not be first choice, but they might be some teams ONLY choice if they want above average players.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Rebel_1812 on March 15, 2015, 11:35:20 AM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...

Ron Wilson really needs to go away.  I don't really care for the guys who come out of the woodwork an start retroactively backtalking.  Much less a guy who openly admits an axe to grind and references a 49 game stint with the Leafs on his proof that Nazem didn't listen to him.  Wilson's a blowhard.  I don't care for Cherry in the least because he rarely makes sense and is usually wrong when you can understand what he says, but his constant "I don't kick things when they are down" (spoiler alert, he does) would be some good advice for some of the idiots running the broadcast  and sports media.  Where was Wilson before the collapse.  Coming out after the fact, openly admitting a bias and then spouting off stuff in a vague enough way to be impossible to dispute but also not providing anything concrete is useless click-baiting. 

I've lost interest in the Leafs and it took a hell of a lot to get me to that point.  But I lost interest in the Toronto sports media long before that.  Adding more of this useless garbage only pushes me farther away from that.  I have been cable free for a few years now and use NHL Gamecenter with a US account to watch Leafs games.  I don't watch TSN.  I don't go to their website anymore, I'm completely done with the shoddy "journalism" around the Leafs. 

I'm happy to read blogs and catch the stories through those and the message board but I'm just tired of not only real negativity but contrived stories to keep people who have long since become irrelevant in the sporting world relevant.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri)

Tried to watch some last night. I still have cable (though getting close to getting rid of a bunch of it). Had to change the channel - they were so bad, I couldn't stand to watch it. Flipped back to a round table at intermission. Elliotte Friedman I have time for - there are still a few I don't mind. But Kypreos and Cox along with Stroumboulopoulos (on hockey)? I just don't have time for them. Couldn't even watch the intermission. Sad. I did watch some of the Calgary game later to get "my fix".

I feel a little like Ron Wilson with some of my posts. I'm kicking them from the bleachers when they're down. I can handle inept but I can't handle the lack of effort and bundled with that, a set of contracts that are going to be a real burden for some years to come. It's as bleak a time as I can recall and I've been watching for over 50 years. I don't feel like being silent about that. I'm close to angry. So if the media tees off on them a little, it isn't bothering me as much because I think there's some folks who deserve it.

The bigger issue with wilson is how he lasted so long as the coach if he had issues with many of his players.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 15, 2015, 11:48:33 AM
The bigger issue with wilson is how he lasted so long as the coach if he had issues with many of his players.

They say 1/3 of the players like the coach (often because the coach likes them and they've benefited from that with more ice time), 1/3 of the players don't like the coach (often because the coach doesn't like them as much and they've suffered from that with less ice time) and 1/3 are on the fence ... with the coach in his early seasons trending towards against him in later seasons if they don't keep winning.

So Wilson, like many NHL coaches, was going to have problems with a number of his players. That alone doesn't disqualify him from doing an ok job. I wasn't a big fan of his nor did I hate him.

In spite of Don Cherry, Kadri had issues with his game and professionalism. Eakins noted them. Wilson noted them. So did Carlyle. Now Horachek and Shanahan. I have some respect for all of those guys and it's very unlikely they're all wrong.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Tigger on March 15, 2015, 12:15:15 PM
There was also a note ( which I can't find now ) about overhearing Burke blast him behind closed doors when he was young. I never agreed with Cherry's assessment, still don't ( not the greatest bellwether, anywho ). The issues with Kadri along the way aren't a direct indicator that Nazem will be a problem contractually or performance wise down the road.

As far as Phaneuf and Kessel go, fortunately the Leafs can be patient for a year at least, more so with Kessel's contract. If any contract dollars are retained, it'll be for Phaneuf, but I'm not convinced they can't make a hockey trade without that for either of them.

In Wilson's defence, he didn't entirely throw Kadri under the bus in that clip, he said he's improved physically too, which I agree with and to me he's vastly improved his issues with blueline turnovers as well. What was Kadri, 21 when he was fired?

Hopefully Hunter can be an influence here.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 15, 2015, 12:42:31 PM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

"...if we had drawn a hard line with him and sent him down to the minors and made an example of him early on in his career..."

This was something that caught my ear when I heard it. Kadri played 29 and then 21 NHL games in his first two seasons under Wilson. In his first season he was cut from training camp, called up in November, sent back down in January after 17 games, and then called back up in March after the deadline.

Season 2, it looked like he might make the team out of camp but injured his knee late in preseason. He played in 3 NHL games in late October after he recovered before being sent to the AHL. Stayed there until late December when he was called up and played 16 games before again being sent back down. Then he was called up for a pair of games late in the season.

The team did take a pretty tough approach towards Kadri when Wilson was his coach. That's actually something I remember a lot of people complained about. So if Wilson can't even properly describe how the team handled him I'm not going to put a lot of stock into the other things he says. He's clearly on TV because he has an axe to grind and saying these things makes for good ratings.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: TML fan on March 15, 2015, 12:46:34 PM
If I didn't know how Leaf fans are (and know that they know as well), I'd think the media WANTS to alienate its primary audience.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 15, 2015, 03:02:11 PM
Right now, in my opinion (and in the opinion of others), the only way Kessel and Phaneuf (for example) return anything in terms of notable talent is if they eat dollars off their contracts. Often, a rebuild gets jump started by flipping the older talent into younger prospects. These contracts constrain that from happening as well as it might have.

I agree that they won't get much for Phanuef and Kessel, I think that by moving them out and making a clean break, that will provide the Leafs with talent through them finishing at or near the bottom of the league the next couple of years.  The key for the Leafs is that they need to correctly identify the pieces that are going help them going forward, and moving out everything else for whatever they can get.  Pieces like JVR, Kadri, Gardiner, Komarov, Holland, Panik, and Reilly need to be evaluated to see if they fit with the plan going forward.   

The likely effect is it will lengthen the time it will take the Leafs to recover from this mess. It's depressing. We've stepped into multiple piles of crap and some of it is going to stick to our shoes for some time to come.

I agree that this is a mess because they shouldn't be in this position after 10 years of being a pitiful team. 

However, I don't think they are in as bad of shape as they were when they came out of the JFJ years.  At least they have drafted in the first round the last couple of years.  That always help.  I agree that it would help more if they had some 2nd round picks to go along with those, but hey baby steps.  They have some guys on the farm that look like they will be legitimate NHL'ers in Finn, Leivo, Brown, Nylander, Percy, Loov, and maybe even guys like Granberg and McKegg.


They need elite level talent that can make a difference in a game, and the only place to get that reliably is at the start of the draft as many have noted and lamented over the last couple of years.  Hopefully they can get that talent over the next couple of years.  I mean the thing that most Leaf fans should be thankful for is they finally have a plan that doesn't seem to be contingent on them either fleecing someone in a trade or finding a diamond in the rough in the draft in the late rounds.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 15, 2015, 03:19:39 PM
There is limited players available.  Some of these Leafs might not be first choice, but they might be some teams ONLY choice if they want above average players.

This is what I'm hoping for.  Good players just don't come available, or relatively few, since teams generally sign them to long-term contracts.  Seeing players like Kessel and Phaneuf become available, like them or hate them, doesn't happen very often, and I'm sure there will be teams that snap them up.  I just hope that Nonis/Shanahan don't play hardball to the point where they don't move them, rather than can't move them.  Cut bait, get what you can, and move on.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: cw on March 15, 2015, 04:35:24 PM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

"...if we had drawn a hard line with him and sent him down to the minors and made an example of him early on in his career..."

This was something that caught my ear when I heard it. Kadri played 29 and then 21 NHL games in his first two seasons under Wilson. In his first season he was cut from training camp, called up in November, sent back down in January after 17 games, and then called back up in March after the deadline.

Season 2, it looked like he might make the team out of camp but injured his knee late in preseason. He played in 3 NHL games in late October after he recovered before being sent to the AHL. Stayed there until late December when he was called up and played 16 games before again being sent back down. Then he was called up for a pair of games late in the season.

The team did take a pretty tough approach towards Kadri when Wilson was his coach. That's actually something I remember a lot of people complained about. So if Wilson can't even properly describe how the team handled him I'm not going to put a lot of stock into the other things he says. He's clearly on TV because he has an axe to grind and saying these things makes for good ratings.

Fair points made on Wilson.

Upon reflection, Burke, Nonis, Eakins, Wilson, Carlyle, Horachek & Shanahan have all criticized Kadri over the years and I don't recall a good case being made that it wasn't accurate criticism.

I realize Don Cherry's position but there is a case to be made that they were not getting through otherwise ... criticism via the media is often one of the last resorts.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Rebel_1812 on March 15, 2015, 04:42:39 PM
The bigger issue with wilson is how he lasted so long as the coach if he had issues with many of his players.

They say 1/3 of the players like the coach (often because the coach likes them and they've benefited from that with more ice time), 1/3 of the players don't like the coach (often because the coach doesn't like them as much and they've suffered from that with less ice time) and 1/3 are on the fence ... with the coach in his early seasons trending towards against him in later seasons if they don't keep winning.

So Wilson, like many NHL coaches, was going to have problems with a number of his players. That alone doesn't disqualify him from doing an ok job. I wasn't a big fan of his nor did I hate him.

In spite of Don Cherry, Kadri had issues with his game and professionalism. Eakins noted them. Wilson noted them. So did Carlyle. Now Horachek and Shanahan. I have some respect for all of those guys and it's very unlikely they're all wrong.

I did hate wilson and think he is by far the worse coach the leafs have had since the 80s.  Your right some players will like you and some will not.  You don't want to have issues with your best player in kessel and your player of the future in kadri.  You better have a good relationship with the best players else your team will not perform well; which they didn't.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Bender on March 15, 2015, 04:46:03 PM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

Coach’s Corner: Nazem Kadri will leave in two years
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner-nazem-kadri-will-leave-two-years/

This is going to be a painful process ...

Ron Wilson really needs to go away.  I don't really care for the guys who come out of the woodwork an start retroactively backtalking.  Much less a guy who openly admits an axe to grind and references a 49 game stint with the Leafs on his proof that Nazem didn't listen to him.  Wilson's a blowhard.  I don't care for Cherry in the least because he rarely makes sense and is usually wrong when you can understand what he says, but his constant "I don't kick things when they are down" (spoiler alert, he does) would be some good advice for some of the idiots running the broadcast  and sports media.  Where was Wilson before the collapse.  Coming out after the fact, openly admitting a bias and then spouting off stuff in a vague enough way to be impossible to dispute but also not providing anything concrete is useless click-baiting. 

I've lost interest in the Leafs and it took a hell of a lot to get me to that point.  But I lost interest in the Toronto sports media long before that.  Adding more of this useless garbage only pushes me farther away from that.  I have been cable free for a few years now and use NHL Gamecenter with a US account to watch Leafs games.  I don't watch TSN.  I don't go to their website anymore, I'm completely done with the shoddy "journalism" around the Leafs. 

I'm happy to read blogs and catch the stories through those and the message board but I'm just tired of not only real negativity but contrived stories to keep people who have long since become irrelevant in the sporting world relevant.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri (http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2015/3/14/8214559/in-defence-of-nazem-kadri)
That and they offer no nuanced analysis. Omg Calgary is in the playoffs but not the Leafs therefore Calgary is a good team! Except there are tons of issues in their despite being in the playoffs. I read somewhere that they are basically the Colorado of this year based on shooting percentages.

Furthermore, Im reminded of Larionovs article recently about how coaches are asking for the simple play. Sometimes you need to allow players to be creative and let them thrive that way.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 15, 2015, 05:05:17 PM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

"...if we had drawn a hard line with him and sent him down to the minors and made an example of him early on in his career..."

This was something that caught my ear when I heard it. Kadri played 29 and then 21 NHL games in his first two seasons under Wilson. In his first season he was cut from training camp, called up in November, sent back down in January after 17 games, and then called back up in March after the deadline.

Season 2, it looked like he might make the team out of camp but injured his knee late in preseason. He played in 3 NHL games in late October after he recovered before being sent to the AHL. Stayed there until late December when he was called up and played 16 games before again being sent back down. Then he was called up for a pair of games late in the season.

The team did take a pretty tough approach towards Kadri when Wilson was his coach. That's actually something I remember a lot of people complained about. So if Wilson can't even properly describe how the team handled him I'm not going to put a lot of stock into the other things he says. He's clearly on TV because he has an axe to grind and saying these things makes for good ratings.

Fair points made on Wilson.

Upon reflection, Burke, Nonis, Eakins, Wilson, Carlyle, Horachek & Shanahan have all criticized Kadri over the years and I don't recall a good case being made that it wasn't accurate criticism.

I realize Don Cherry's position but there is a case to be made that they were not getting through otherwise ... criticism via the media is often one of the last resorts.

Gary Roberts was on a show last week (TSN?), and was discussing the Kadri situation a bit.  He brought up Kadri coming to him a few summers ago to get in shape, which is the season he was criticized by Eakins for coming to camp with terrible body fat composition.  His tone was interesting, along the lines of he came once and I never heard from him again. 

Kadri strikes me as a guy who is being pulled in all different directions, and is a bit confused about what he actually needs to do.  I wonder if a guy like Shanahan, someone who as a player would have probably been a good role model,  might be able to get through to him.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Al14 on March 15, 2015, 07:00:16 PM
Wilson: ''I never felt that Nazem ever listened to me''
http://www.tsn.ca/video/wilson-i-never-felt-that-nazem-ever-listened-to-me-1.230332

"...if we had drawn a hard line with him and sent him down to the minors and made an example of him early on in his career..."

This was something that caught my ear when I heard it. Kadri played 29 and then 21 NHL games in his first two seasons under Wilson. In his first season he was cut from training camp, called up in November, sent back down in January after 17 games, and then called back up in March after the deadline.

Season 2, it looked like he might make the team out of camp but injured his knee late in preseason. He played in 3 NHL games in late October after he recovered before being sent to the AHL. Stayed there until late December when he was called up and played 16 games before again being sent back down. Then he was called up for a pair of games late in the season.

The team did take a pretty tough approach towards Kadri when Wilson was his coach. That's actually something I remember a lot of people complained about. So if Wilson can't even properly describe how the team handled him I'm not going to put a lot of stock into the other things he says. He's clearly on TV because he has an axe to grind and saying these things makes for good ratings.

Fair points made on Wilson.

Upon reflection, Burke, Nonis, Eakins, Wilson, Carlyle, Horachek & Shanahan have all criticized Kadri over the years and I don't recall a good case being made that it wasn't accurate criticism.

I realize Don Cherry's position but there is a case to be made that they were not getting through otherwise ... criticism via the media is often one of the last resorts.

Gary Roberts was on a show last week (TSN?), and was discussing the Kadri situation a bit.  He brought up Kadri coming to him a few summers ago to get in shape, which is the season he was criticized by Eakins for coming to camp with terrible body fat composition.  His tone was interesting, along the lines of he came once and I never heard from him again. 

Kadri strikes me as a guy who is being pulled in all different directions, and is a bit confused about what he actually needs to do.  I wonder if a guy like Shanahan, someone who as a player would have probably been a good role model,  might be able to get through to him.

If Shanahan can't get through to Kadri, then, I'm afraid no one can! 

Kadri had the chance to work with Gary Roberts, and, by the sounds of it, he didn't like the work ethic Roberts promotes.

If being exposed to two great former hockey players can't motivate you to be your best, then, it may be time for the Leafs to trade Kadri for the best return possible.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 17, 2015, 01:45:45 PM
So Shanahan imposed a 3-game suspension on Kadri, taking him to task for not being professional.  Assuming he gets suspended by the league for a few games for last night's head shot, is this interpreted as more unprofessional behavior?  Or is it a non-factor since it was a hockey play?  Just wondering if Kadri gets himself into more trouble with this.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 17, 2015, 03:38:28 PM
So Shanahan imposed a 3-game suspension on Kadri, taking him to task for not being professional.  Assuming he gets suspended by the league for a few games for last night's head shot, is this interpreted as more unprofessional behavior?  Or is it a non-factor since it was a hockey play?  Just wondering if Kadri gets himself into more trouble with this.

Probably a case of if the League suspends him, then that is punishment enough.  I don't think I have ever seen a team get there player in trouble for something like a suspect hit if the League chooses not to suspend the player.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Chris on March 17, 2015, 04:50:55 PM
So Shanahan imposed a 3-game suspension on Kadri, taking him to task for not being professional.  Assuming he gets suspended by the league for a few games for last night's head shot, is this interpreted as more unprofessional behavior?  Or is it a non-factor since it was a hockey play?  Just wondering if Kadri gets himself into more trouble with this.

Probably a case of if the League suspends him, then that is punishment enough.  I don't think I have ever seen a team get there player in trouble for something like a suspect hit if the League chooses not to suspend the player.

Hard to tell if there was intent to injure in that play, it was so fast. If the league suspends, fine, but I think at most a couple of games.

I think the team might have more of a problem with his tirade at the end of the game that netted a bunch of penalties.
Title: Re: Kadri Misses Meeting - Sent Home
Post by: Al14 on March 17, 2015, 08:39:12 PM
So Shanahan imposed a 3-game suspension on Kadri, taking him to task for not being professional.  Assuming he gets suspended by the league for a few games for last night's head shot, is this interpreted as more unprofessional behavior?  Or is it a non-factor since it was a hockey play?  Just wondering if Kadri gets himself into more trouble with this.

Probably a case of if the League suspends him, then that is punishment enough.  I don't think I have ever seen a team get there player in trouble for something like a suspect hit if the League chooses not to suspend the player.

Hard to tell if there was intent to injure in that play, it was so fast. If the league suspends, fine, but I think at most a couple of games.

I think the team might have more of a problem with his tirade at the end of the game that netted a bunch of penalties.

I only saw the replay twice, however, from what I could tell, this was incidental contact IMHO.  I don't think it was intentional contact by Kadri.  His arms were down, however, it looked like his elbow did rise a bit in response to the contact.  Really unsure!

If Kadri gets anything, it'll be only a game or two.