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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 10:52:45 AM

Title: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 10:52:45 AM
Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris  2m2 minutes ago
BREAKING: The #leafs have trade Cody Franson and Mike Santorelli to Nashville for first-round pick, prospects.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 10:55:14 AM

Well, I like the first round part of that. Obviously who the prospects are will decide a lot of it.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 10:55:33 AM
- Nashville's 1st in 2015
- Brendan Leipsic (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=130673)
- Olli Jokinen
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 10:56:18 AM
Depending on who the prospect are, I still think you could have gotten more if you traded the two separately. But alas, an extra 1st round pick is great to see. Now we root for Nashville to get bumped in the 1st round!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 10:57:08 AM

Bit of a stretch calling Jokinen a prospect but, you know, they say life really begins at 40.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 10:57:35 AM
Details....

http://predators.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=753452
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 10:57:39 AM
Brendan Leipsic was a 3rd rounder in 2012.

Has 35 points in 47 games in the AHL this year.

2nd leading scorer on the Admirals.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 10:59:22 AM
Depending on who the prospect are, I still think you could have gotten more if you traded the two separately. But alas, an extra 1st round pick is great to see. Now we root for Nashville to get bumped in the 1st round!

I'm guessing that this tells us a little bit about the market for each guy and that we may have been overestimating what each might have fetched separately.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:00:07 AM
Brendan Leipsic was a 3rd rounder in 2012.

Has 35 points in 47 games in the AHL this year

Corey Pronman had him ranked as Nashville's 5th best prospect at the start of the year, and he was given an HM in his top-100 prospects list. Not gonna lie, kind of an underwhelming return. But a 1st is a 1st.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:01:39 AM
Mirtle just posted this on Leipsic:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/meet-the-most-annoying-prospect-in-hockey/
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:02:58 AM
Jokinen has 6 points in 48 games, 6!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 11:03:33 AM
Depending on who the prospect are, I still think you could have gotten more if you traded the two separately. But alas, an extra 1st round pick is great to see. Now we root for Nashville to get bumped in the 1st round!

Or hire the Tanya Harding team to do their thing on the Nashville players? If she does her job(s) properly, we could have another ticket in the lottery draft!  8)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 11:04:39 AM
Jokinen has 6 points in 48 games, 6!

Yeah. Not sure why he had to be part of the trade?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:06:03 AM
Jokinen has 6 points in 48 games, 6!

Yeah. Not sure why he had to be part of the trade?

Salary.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
Jokinen has 6 points in 48 games, 6!

Yeah. Not sure why he had to be part of the trade?

You put him in Santo's spot and you avoid having to make any real roster change.

Also, who knows? Maybe some team suffers some injuries and makes the Leafs an offer for him at the deadline.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:07:09 AM
Making this move with 6 games to go before the deadline is big too. This team is significantly worse without Franson and Santorelli. Embrace the tank!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Andy on February 15, 2015, 11:08:13 AM
Franson and Santorelli are both unrestricted and the former, imo, is far worse than his numbers show. I'm happy about that 1st and didn't really expect much more.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:09:56 AM
Kind if weakish return at first glance. But whatever. Round Em up and move Em out
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Stronger Than All on February 15, 2015, 11:11:06 AM
Sounded like a good return to me.  Would you rather a 1st for franson and a 2nd for santorelli separately?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:12:18 AM
Sounded like a good return to me.  Would you rather a 1st for franson and a 2nd for santorelli separately?

Probably. But this trade might indicate that that might not have been in the cards.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:14:01 AM
I'm warming up to Brendan Leipsic. Being able to score at the AHL level like he has is pretty impressive for a 20-year old. He's 4th in AHL scoring for rookies and is just 1 point behind Connor Brown. That's a good indication of future NHL success. And judging from that article I posted, he's a feisty as hell player too. Basically a Brad Ross who doesn't suck (and doesn't take drugs).
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
What is a former 3rd round pick that appears to have developed since he was picked 3 years ago worth?

His numbers seem to be similar to Connor Brown, where his production in junior doubled in the year after he was drafted and now is a leading scorer for his team in his first professional year.

Might amount to nothing though, of course.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Madferret on February 15, 2015, 11:19:06 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:19:22 AM
Quote
Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie  1 minute ago
TOR-NSH trade easy to break down. TOR gets NSH 1st rd for Franson, which is very good price for rental. Santorelli for prospect Leipsic.

So Franson nets a 1st, which many of us felt that he would. Just thought that they might be a little extra on top, but that's alright. Santorelli gets a prospect drafted in the 3rd round but appears to be on the right track to becoming a NHLer, so I could say that translates into a 2nd rounder. Again, I'm very much warming up to the deal.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:20:14 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?

Right on cue. Franson netted a 1st rounder in the deal. That's more than fine.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?

It was reported as the "asking price".
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?

From who's projections?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:22:22 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?

Right on cue. Franson netted a 1st rounder in the deal. That's more than fine.

I was told a first for Franson alone was a pipe dream.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:22:48 AM
I'm warming up to Brendan Leipsic. Being able to score at the AHL level like he has is pretty impressive for a 20-year old. He's 4th in AHL scoring for rookies and is just 1 point behind Connor Brown. That's a good indication of future NHL success. And judging from that article I posted, he's a feisty as hell player too. Basically a Brad Ross who doesn't suck (and doesn't take drugs).

The question is, as has been said, could we have gotten more for Santo separately? Poile's statement was that they were fortunate to have plugged 2 needs in 1 deal, so to me it seems like they could have tried to charge a premium for that -- meaning, a higher-ranked prospect that Leipsic.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Madferret on February 15, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?

Right on cue. Franson netted a 1st rounder in the deal. That's more than fine.

Don't forget Olli Jokinen! I guess they'll be putting a dry bar in the clubhouse now
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:24:41 AM
Who do you think negotiated this -- Nonis or Shanny?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:24:55 AM
The question is, as has been said, could we have gotten more for Santo separately? Poile's statement was that they were fortunate to have plugged 2 needs in 1 deal, so to me it seems like they could have tried to charge a premium for that -- meaning, a higher-ranked prospect that Leipsic.

I'm sure they did try.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:24:56 AM
Don't forget Olli Jokinen! I guess they'll be putting a dry bar in the clubhouse now

Says somebody who had no idea how a salary-cap team operates.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Madferret on February 15, 2015, 11:25:11 AM
Isn't that what Franson alone was expected to return ?

Right on cue. Franson netted a 1st rounder in the deal. That's more than fine.

I was told a first for Franson alone was a pipe dream.

Based on that return I would have preferred the pipe dream.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:25:21 AM
Who do you think negotiated this -- Nonis or Shanny?

Nonis.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:26:28 AM
Quote
Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie  1 minute ago
TOR-NSH trade easy to break down. TOR gets NSH 1st rd for Franson, which is very good price for rental. Santorelli for prospect Leipsic.

So Franson nets a 1st, which many of us felt that he would. Just thought that they might be a little extra on top, but that's alright. Santorelli gets a prospect drafted in the 3rd round but appears to be on the right track to becoming a NHLer, so I could say that translates into a 2nd rounder. Again, I'm very much warming up to the deal.

And look, I'm sure I'm being ridiculous on this one but Jokinen was taking a regular PK shift for Nashville. I don't think it's inconceivable he becomes a trade deadline asset. Not a big one obviously but maybe another 4th or 5th rounder.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:26:34 AM
The question is, as has been said, could we have gotten more for Santo separately? Poile's statement was that they were fortunate to have plugged 2 needs in 1 deal, so to me it seems like they could have tried to charge a premium for that -- meaning, a higher-ranked prospect that Leipsic.

Maybe, but like I said I think we all had Santo's value at around a 2nd round pick. Leipsic was a 3rd rounder who seems to be developed very well, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in the 2nd round in a re-draft. So we basically got a 2nd rounder just fast-forwarded a little bit.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: bustaheims on February 15, 2015, 11:26:52 AM
Good but not overwhelmingly amazing deal. A 1st is a 1st, obviously, even if it is a late one. Leipsic is an intriguing prospect and Jokinen is a salary dump the Leafs can hopefully move for a late round pick at the deadline. Might have been able to get a touch more for them in individual deals, but, probably not enough to bother waiting.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:28:30 AM
The question is, as has been said, could we have gotten more for Santo separately? Poile's statement was that they were fortunate to have plugged 2 needs in 1 deal, so to me it seems like they could have tried to charge a premium for that -- meaning, a higher-ranked prospect that Leipsic.

I'm sure they did try.

Well yeah, but what I'm wondering is why they couldn't have put Franson for a NSH 1st on hold (where else is Polie going to get that need filled?) and shop Santorelli around up closer to the deadline?  Seems to me that he would have fetched a bit more.

I'm not really thumbs down on this, just questioning the strategy a bit.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:28:38 AM
And look, I'm sure I'm being ridiculous on this one but Jokinen was taking a regular PK shift for Nashville. I don't think it's inconceivable he becomes a trade deadline asset. Not a big one obviously but maybe another 4th or 5th rounder.

Yeah I mean I have my doubts but I wouldn't completely rule it out. Heck, even if it was a 6th or 7th I'd take it. Somebody showed that the success rate of a 5th rounder is basically the same as 6th or 7th.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
Who do you think negotiated this -- Nonis or Shanny?

Nonis.

So you think he stays after the season?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:29:57 AM
Well yeah, but what I'm wondering is why they couldn't have put Franson for a NSH 1st on hold (where else is Polie going to get that need filled?) and shop Santorelli around up closer to the deadline?  Seems to me that he would have fetched a bit more.

I'm not really thumbs down on this, just questioning the strategy a bit.

I wonder if Franson's health made the Leafs want to speed this up a little bit. Nashville obviously would have done their medical testing and all, but it's clear that something was bothering Franson. If that got worse and we couldn't trade him, man that'd be pretty awful.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:30:08 AM
Who do you think negotiated this -- Nonis or Shanny?

Nonis.

Yeah, this doesn't seem complicated enough to have to include Shanahan in on things. I mean, whatever you might think of Nonis aside Shanahan doesn't have a scouting or front office background so I'd still prefer Nonis making decisions where prospects are involved.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Sudafederov on February 15, 2015, 11:31:00 AM
So we turned Lebda into a first? Genius!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:31:18 AM
The question is, as has been said, could we have gotten more for Santo separately? Poile's statement was that they were fortunate to have plugged 2 needs in 1 deal, so to me it seems like they could have tried to charge a premium for that -- meaning, a higher-ranked prospect that Leipsic.

Maybe, but like I said I think we all had Santo's value at around a 2nd round pick. Leipsic was a 3rd rounder who seems to be developed very well, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in the 2nd round in a re-draft. So we basically got a 2nd rounder just fast-forwarded a little bit.

Well, following Nik's lead here, maybe they flip both Leipsic & Olli at the deadline?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:33:15 AM
Well yeah, but what I'm wondering is why they couldn't have put Franson for a NSH 1st on hold (where else is Polie going to get that need filled?) and shop Santorelli around up closer to the deadline?  Seems to me that he would have fetched a bit more.

I'm not really thumbs down on this, just questioning the strategy a bit.

I would guess it boiled down to a combination of some or all of these things:

1) They really like Leipsic and were worried Nashville might use him in another trade
2) They valued the team getting worse immediately
3) Santorelli's value is being overestimated
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: caveman on February 15, 2015, 11:33:23 AM
It's great that the sell - off has started...next Winnik...then maybe some core guys ??
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 11:34:16 AM
Well yeah, but what I'm wondering is why they couldn't have put Franson for a NSH 1st on hold (where else is Polie going to get that need filled?) and shop Santorelli around up closer to the deadline?  Seems to me that he would have fetched a bit more.

I'm not really thumbs down on this, just questioning the strategy a bit.

I would guess it boiled down to a combination of some or all of these things:

1) They really like Leipsic and were worried Nashville might use him in another trade
2) They valued the team getting worse immediately
3) Santorelli's value is being overestimated

Yah, that's about it I guess.  Also what busta posted above pretty muh wraps it.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to Nashville for 1st round pick, prospects
Post by: Can8899 on February 15, 2015, 11:36:15 AM
Sounded like a good return to me.  Would you rather a 1st for franson and a 2nd for santorelli separately?

My thoughts exactly.  I would have thought that separating the two could have allowed for the two high picks. 

Jokinen is irrelevant at this point, he's here to fill a roster spot and will be gone at the end of the year if not sooner....
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 11:38:03 AM
Poile, by all accounts, is a pretty clever GM. A late round first a 3rd rounder and a salary dump isn't a great return fro two sought after players come deadline time. I think he knew Franson and Santo's value would have only gone up in the coming weeks. Smart move and good deal for Nashville.

Did the Leafs get what they wanted? Probably not, but we'll see how the picks they got turn out before we know for sure.

I'm giving the trade a C for the Leafs and a B+ for Nashville.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:38:18 AM
Maybe, but like I said I think we all had Santo's value at around a 2nd round pick. Leipsic was a 3rd rounder who seems to be developed very well, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in the 2nd round in a re-draft. So we basically got a 2nd rounder just fast-forwarded a little bit.

Also, it's worth mentioning that while we had Santorelli's value at around a 2nd, it was almost certainly going to be a late second. There was that study of draft success a while back that said once you get outside of the top 40 or so the difference of success between picks 41-100 is pretty negligible. .
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bates on February 15, 2015, 11:39:17 AM
And John Slaney(Burke joke)
So we turned Lebda into a first? Genius!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:40:34 AM
Poile, by all accounts, is a pretty clever GM.

Who is still the GM who thought Paul Gaustad was worth a first rounder. He might not be the best judge of who's worth what come deadline day.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:41:01 AM
Poile, by all accounts, is a pretty clever GM. A late round first a 3rd rounder and a salary dump isn't a great return fro two sought after players come deadline time. I think he knew Franson and Santo's value would have only gone up in the coming weeks. Smart move and good deal for Nashville.

Did the Leafs get what they wanted? Probably not, but we'll see how the picks they got turn out before we know for sure.

I'm giving the trade a C for the Leafs and a B+ for Nashville.

I'd be somewhat surprised if any other team moved a 1st round pick at the deadline. I absolutely thought Franson deserved a 1st but a lot of teams are reportedly very hesitant to move one this year. So getting a pick like that back is a success no matter how you look at it.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 11:43:42 AM
Maybe, but like I said I think we all had Santo's value at around a 2nd round pick. Leipsic was a 3rd rounder who seems to be developed very well, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in the 2nd round in a re-draft. So we basically got a 2nd rounder just fast-forwarded a little bit.

Also, it's worth mentioning that while we had Santorelli's value at around a 2nd, it was almost certainly going to be a late second. There was that study of draft success a while back that said once you get outside of the top 40 or so the difference of success between picks 41-100 is pretty negligible. .

I wonder if there was ever any consideration of keeping him around for the rebuild. I mean, you need some veteran presence around a team full of rookies. Someone that has a great work ethic, and with scoring ability, but doesn't break the bank to have him. I would have thought Santo would be a pretty good fit for that type of role. Who fills that spot now I wonder?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 11:44:26 AM
Maybe, but like I said I think we all had Santo's value at around a 2nd round pick. Leipsic was a 3rd rounder who seems to be developed very well, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in the 2nd round in a re-draft. So we basically got a 2nd rounder just fast-forwarded a little bit.

Also, it's worth mentioning that while we had Santorelli's value at around a 2nd, it was almost certainly going to be a late second. There was that study of draft success a while back that said once you get outside of the top 40 or so the difference of success between picks 41-100 is pretty negligible. .

I wonder if there was ever any consideration of keeping him around for the rebuild. I mean, you need some veteran presence around a team full of rookies. Someone that has a great work ethic, and with scoring ability, but doesn't break the bank to have him. I would have thought Santo would be a pretty good fit for that type of role. Who fills that spot now I wonder?

Some other scrap heap UFA signing this offseason.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 11:45:25 AM
Poile, by all accounts, is a pretty clever GM.

Who is still the GM who thought Paul Gaustad was worth a first rounder. He might not be the best judge of who's worth what come deadline day.

Of course, I'm talking about the bigger picture. Every GM has a dud deal on their resume somewhere.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Joe S. on February 15, 2015, 11:46:05 AM
As clever as Poile is, he may also have traded his first round pick for 6 weeks of play.

To get a first round pick for pending UFA's seems more than reasonable.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:47:26 AM
I wonder if there was ever any consideration of keeping him around for the rebuild. I mean, you need some veteran presence around a team full of rookies. Someone that has a great work ethic, and with scoring ability, but doesn't break the bank to have him. I would have thought Santo would be a pretty good fit for that type of role. Who fills that spot now I wonder?

I certainly hope not. If you're looking for that sort of guy you sign him as a UFA. Santorelli was found money. It would be ridiculous not to trade him.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:49:28 AM
Of course, I'm talking about the bigger picture. Every GM has a dud deal on their resume somewhere.

Seriously, if you think Santorelli would have fetched significantly more than Leipsic at the deadline you need to go back and look at the NYI-Montreal trade at last year's deadline. Vanek had 53 points in 60 games at that point and he went for a late second and a prospect.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 11:49:51 AM
Also, as Chris Johnson just reminded me on twitter, we should all be sending massive "Thank-You" cards to Josh Gorges right now.

It should also remind us why, ultimately, Nonis should not be the GM of this team anymore.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 11:52:35 AM
Also, as Chris Johnson just reminded me on twitter, we should all be sending massive "Thank-You" cards to Josh Gorges right now.

It should also remind us why, ultimately, Nonis should not be the GM of this team anymore.

I agree and everything but this sort of thing is what I think Nonis is fine at. If he's just calling around the league and gauging players values and scouting amateurs then fine. I don't want him doing the rebuilding but I think he can manage the tearing down.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bullfrog on February 15, 2015, 11:52:54 AM
Two pending UFAs turned into a 1st and a decent prospect? I'm happy with that return.

I really liked Santorelli, but not enough to keep him. I agree with Nik; it'd be crazy not to trade him.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: herman on February 15, 2015, 11:53:54 AM
Looks like a very reasonable return to me.
As mentioned, this ups our tank game and brings back a 1st and flippable assets. I was worried one of our trade bait players would get injured.

This exodus is going better than the one under Fletcher already.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 12:01:46 PM
Looks like a very reasonable return to me.
As mentioned, this ups our tank game and brings back a 1st and flippable assets. I was worried one of our trade bait players would get injured.

This exodus is going better than the one under Fletcher already.

Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky Kilger.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 12:03:05 PM
Looks like a very reasonable return to me.
As mentioned, this ups our tank game and brings back a 1st and flippable assets. I was worried one of our trade bait players would get injured.

This exodus is going better than the one under Fletcher already.

Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Stempniak.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Your timeline is a little off. They got Stempniak for Steen.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
Looks like a very reasonable return to me.
As mentioned, this ups our tank game and brings back a 1st and flippable assets. I was worried one of our trade bait players would get injured.

This exodus is going better than the one under Fletcher already.

Yeah. The tank-force is getting stronger and stronger.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: lamajama on February 15, 2015, 12:07:17 PM
I'm sure the man ultimately responsible for this disaster cannot make any deals at all without Shanahan, Hunter et al approving it.

Nonis, thank God, is not the GM of this team in responsibilities just in title.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 12:08:53 PM
I'm sure the man ultimately responsible for this disaster cannot make any deals at all without Shanahan, Hunter et al approving it.

I would hope not. He's currently employed by the Calgary Flames.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
Looks like a very reasonable return to me.
As mentioned, this ups our tank game and brings back a 1st and flippable assets. I was worried one of our trade bait players would get injured.

This exodus is going better than the one under Fletcher already.

Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Stempniak.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Your timeline is a little off. They got Stempniak for Steen.

Yeah, I changed it to Kilger.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Frank E on February 15, 2015, 12:19:16 PM
Also, as Chris Johnson just reminded me on twitter, we should all be sending massive "Thank-You" cards to Josh Gorges right now.

It should also remind us why, ultimately, Nonis should not be the GM of this team anymore.

That article last week made some sense in suggesting that the mandate this past summer is different from the new mandate this month.  I can't blame Nonis for trying to cobble together a playoff team roster, if that's what he was told to do.

I like the deal just fine, even if just to get those two off the roster to further help the slide.

For the first time, I actually believe the Leafs are going in a new direction, and I'm encouraged by that.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Peter D. on February 15, 2015, 12:20:37 PM
Leafs get a 1st so I'm happy. Maybe they could have gotten more separately, maybe (probably) not. Either way, they got good value for two pending UFA's. Who knows, maybe they re-sign here. Not too upset about moving Santo -- the Leafs can just find the next MacArthur/Santorelli trying to rediscover themselves on a 1-year deal this summer.

And of course, this surely doesn't make the team better. Which is good. :)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: bustaheims on February 15, 2015, 12:22:22 PM
Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky Kilger.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Ponikarovsky and Antropov were both dealt away by Burke. Fletcher moved Kilger, Belak and Gill.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Frank E on February 15, 2015, 12:24:33 PM
Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky Kilger.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Ponikarovsky and Antropov were both dealt away by Burke. Fletcher moved Kilger, Belak and Gill.

Fletch was Steen for Stempniak too, right?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 12:25:53 PM
Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky Kilger.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Ponikarovsky and Antropov were both dealt away by Burke. Fletcher moved Kilger, Belak and Gill.

Still, a second and a fifth for Gill was pretty good. I mean that second ended up being...Jimmy Hayes.

Dammit, Fletcher.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: sickbeast on February 15, 2015, 12:26:44 PM
I don't think that the Leafs will get anything for Jokinen. He only has 3 goals and is overpaid. He was a salary dump. He could help with the tank though.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 12:27:54 PM
Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky Kilger.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Ponikarovsky and Antropov were both dealt away by Burke. Fletcher moved Kilger, Belak and Gill.

I got my firesales mixed up.

Either way the point is the same, Fletcher got decent returns at the deadline but made poor moves after.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2015, 12:29:40 PM
So it looks like we may have gotten the second coming of Darcy Tucker in the deal?

Overall...considering Franson's possible injury and his growing tendency to give the puck away in front of his own goal...probably not a bad deal.

Onward!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 12:34:24 PM

This will be Jokinen's 9th NHL team. That's a pretty remarkable number for a guy with a legitimately good NHL career. I'm pretty sure if he gets to a tenth he gets a free sandwich.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Can8899 on February 15, 2015, 12:42:11 PM
Fletcher started fine, got decent value at the deadline for Antropov, Ponikarovsky Kilger.

Then Finger, Schenn*, Steen, Frogren and Van Ryn happened.

*Burke managed to salvage this, but the initial price to move up 2 spots to get Schenn was high

Ponikarovsky and Antropov were both dealt away by Burke. Fletcher moved Kilger, Belak and Gill.

Fletch was Steen for Stempniak too, right?

Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak if my memory serves...
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Boston Leaf on February 15, 2015, 12:47:47 PM
maybe they take this first and trade with a bozak or a winnik for a better 1st? just a thought
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: brd13 on February 15, 2015, 12:48:11 PM
Leipsic is exactly the type of sh-- disturber the team needs ,plays with heart which beside a few others, is sorely lacking on the bench.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: AvroArrow on February 15, 2015, 12:52:59 PM
Happy with this deal.  Keep it going - clear the crap off this team and sink like a stone.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 12:58:22 PM
maybe they take this first and trade with a bozak or a winnik for a better 1st? just a thought

Don't sleep on where Nashville's pick might end up. They could very easily have LA in the first round.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 01:05:21 PM
maybe they take this first and trade with a bozak or a winnik for a better 1st? just a thought

Don't sleep on where Nashville's pick might end up. They could very easily have LA in the first round.

where does a first round exit put that pick?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: caveman on February 15, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
a Coyotes blogger seems to be saying that Bozak is being traded to the Rangers....  :o

but it is the guy on Eklund's page....
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bullfrog on February 15, 2015, 01:18:01 PM
maybe they take this first and trade with a bozak or a winnik for a better 1st? just a thought

As long as they retain two or more 1st round picks, I'm good with just about anything except the obvious (Rielly, Nylander, etc.)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: TML fan on February 15, 2015, 01:19:14 PM
What's Jokinen's contract status?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 15, 2015, 01:22:09 PM
Solid deal for both teams I'd say.

Franson for a 1st.

Santorelli for a prospect who's effectively a 2nd.

Jokinen a throw in.

You could argue for a bit more for Santorelli but that'd be a stretch.

If the team loves him so much (and he loves it here) they can always talk contract come July. I'm not really that sad to see Franson go.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bullfrog on February 15, 2015, 01:24:09 PM
What's Jokinen's contract status?

$2.5M cap number this year, UFA afterwards. So he's only a Leaf for a couple of months.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: L K on February 15, 2015, 01:24:46 PM
maybe they take this first and trade with a bozak or a winnik for a better 1st? just a thought

Don't sleep on where Nashville's pick might end up. They could very easily have LA in the first round.

And they will always be a Pekka Rinne injury away from being playoff fodder.  I think Nashville has a roster that is primed for a deep playoff run but it could easily fall off the tracks.

Regardless having two first round picks is never a bad thing.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: TML fan on February 15, 2015, 01:25:28 PM
What's Jokinen's contract status?

$2.5M cap number this year, UFA afterwards. So he's only a Leaf for a couple of months.

Good....good.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Stickytape on February 15, 2015, 01:28:59 PM
I hope Jokinen somehow finds his way back onto a playoff-bound team by the deadline, though I don't really see that happening. At least his wife is staying positive:

Quote
Katerina Jokinen ‏
@MrsJoki

Never did like mustard yellow
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: L K on February 15, 2015, 01:30:48 PM
Just a year ago Jokinen had 43 points.  A team with cap space and on the borderlines of a playoff team might take a stab at him for next to nothing but I can't see anything more than that at best.  But even if the Leafs could pull out a 7th round pick for him, that's prime "pick a Swede" territory.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 01:34:45 PM
maybe they take this first and trade with a bozak or a winnik for a better 1st? just a thought

Don't sleep on where Nashville's pick might end up. They could very easily have LA in the first round.

where does a first round exit put that pick?

I think it depends on who else gets knocked out in the first round. If Nashville has the highest point total of those teams it would be 19th, I think.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 15, 2015, 01:39:01 PM
I think it depends on who else gets knocked out in the first round. If Nashville has the highest point total of those teams it would be 19th, I think.

1st to 14th are the non-playoff teams. Then the 8 teams knocked out of the 1st round, ranked by points. So assuming that Nashville has the most points of teams knocked out of the 1st round they'd draft 22nd.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: pmrules on February 15, 2015, 01:47:37 PM
Yeah....seems about right in terms of a package.

Is the prospect kid playing centre or wing?   I've seen both mentioned. 
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: jdh1 on February 15, 2015, 02:00:06 PM
I like the deal...Plus it gives them time to put together a deal for one or two of the core.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Omallley on February 15, 2015, 02:06:07 PM
I'm not overwhelmed by the return, but it certainly isn't a bad one.

Interested to see Leipsic with the Marlies...
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 02:07:16 PM

I'm sure the man ultimately responsible for this disaster cannot make any deals at all without Shanahan, Hunter et al approving it.

I would hope not. He's currently employed by the Calgary Flames.

Lol. That was tart.

Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 15, 2015, 02:12:47 PM
Poile, by all accounts, is a pretty clever GM. A late round first a 3rd rounder and a salary dump isn't a great return fro two sought after players come deadline time. I think he knew Franson and Santo's value would have only gone up in the coming weeks. Smart move and good deal for Nashville.

Did the Leafs get what they wanted? Probably not, but we'll see how the picks they got turn out before we know for sure.

I'm giving the trade a C for the Leafs and a B+ for Nashville.

I'd be somewhat surprised if any other team moved a 1st round pick at the deadline. I absolutely thought Franson deserved a 1st but a lot of teams are reportedly very hesitant to move one this year. So getting a pick like that back is a success no matter how you look at it.

We also have a team to cheer for in the playoffs now!   :P

This from Leaf's Notebook on the MLHS site - recent trades and what they fetched  Not really spectacular returns for anyone:

Lee Stempniak               3rd
Marcel Goc                       3rd+5th
Dustin Penner               4th
Ales Hemsky               3rd+5th
Matt Moulson, Cody McCormick   2nd, 2nd, Torrey Mitchell
Tuomo Ruutu               Cond. 3rd, Andrei Loktionov
Derek Roy                       Kevin Connauton 2nd
Raffi Torres               3rd
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: lamajama on February 15, 2015, 02:19:31 PM
I'm sure the man ultimately responsible for this disaster cannot make any deals at all without Shanahan, Hunter et al approving it.

I would hope not. He's currently employed by the Calgary Flames.

Good one. He started it with his decision to not tear it down probably due to his ego but Nonis certainly has applied the ribbon and bow. Baffling buyouts, incredulous Cap Management and Clarkson. Not so much for the player as for the structure of the contract.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: moon111 on February 15, 2015, 02:55:22 PM
Hopefully this helps the team get worst/better draft pick.  Convinces others that it's time to pack their bags and leave the club for greener pastures.  Starts an arm's race in the Western.  If Nashville gets Franson, who gets Phaneuf?  With a salary cap, Leafs can replaces players with UFAs. 

1st used for Jesper Lindgren, right-handed D-man who played with Nylander?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: herman on February 15, 2015, 03:16:08 PM
So Franson is open to coming back. If we move Phaneuf (or other salary anchors), would you bring him back to anchor a developing blue line (Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, Granberg, Loov), or would you just let Robidas player-coach the next year+?

Sounds like Olli doesn't want to play here either. Do you think we can flip him in a package to a borderline contender in need of centre depth (Calgary? NYI?) for a 2nd/3rd + salary dump?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Tigger on February 15, 2015, 03:22:31 PM
Olli! (http://fuldans.se/?v=xapeifcwtg)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 03:29:13 PM
So Franson is open to coming back. If we move Phaneuf (or other salary anchors), would you bring him back to anchor a developing blue line (Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, Granberg, Loov), or would you just let Robidas player-coach the next year+?

Nah.

Sounds like Olli doesn't want to play here either. Do you think we can flip him in a package to a borderline contender in need of centre depth (Calgary? NYI?) for a 2nd/3rd + salary dump?

He's got 6 points in 48 games. We'd be lucky to get anything, let alone a second.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 15, 2015, 03:35:43 PM
So Franson is open to coming back. If we move Phaneuf (or other salary anchors), would you bring him back to anchor a developing blue line (Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, Granberg, Loov), or would you just let Robidas player-coach the next year+?

Nah.

Sounds like Olli doesn't want to play here either. Do you think we can flip him in a package to a borderline contender in need of centre depth (Calgary? NYI?) for a 2nd/3rd + salary dump?

He's got 6 points in 48 games. We'd be lucky to get anything, let alone a second.

Wow, I was hoping maybe a team might be interested in having a veteran guy with playoff experience, and give us a conditional 4th or 5th.  But looking at his career stats:  1217 NHL games played, and 6 total NHL playoff games.  That's a little depressing.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 03:42:26 PM
Wow, I was hoping maybe a team might be interested in having a veteran guy with playoff experience, and give us a conditional 4th or 5th.  But looking at his career stats:  1217 NHL games played, and 6 total NHL playoff games.  That's a little depressing.

Sure. I mentioned a fifth or something earlier in the thread. But a second or a third? Those are real assets.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: L K on February 15, 2015, 03:44:30 PM
So Franson is open to coming back. If we move Phaneuf (or other salary anchors), would you bring him back to anchor a developing blue line (Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, Granberg, Loov), or would you just let Robidas player-coach the next year+?

Nah.

Sounds like Olli doesn't want to play here either. Do you think we can flip him in a package to a borderline contender in need of centre depth (Calgary? NYI?) for a 2nd/3rd + salary dump?

He's got 6 points in 48 games. We'd be lucky to get anything, let alone a second.

I wouldn't be against bringing him back but the reality is that he's the #1 defenseman and arguably the #1 free agent in the offseason.  He's going to get a long-term, high value contract and the question isn't so much what Franson brings over the next 2-3 seasons, but what he brings 3-5 years from now when the Leafs are hopefully starting to climb back up the standings.

He's not likely to be our #1 guy and Rielly is going to get paid down the road so Rielly + Gardiner + Franson all in high salary spots isn't likely a good approach to the blueline.

As for Jokinen.  They might be able to trade him for a late round draft pick, especially if they were aggressive and retained 50% of his salary but 6 points in 48 games is going to trump his 43 points last year. 
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 15, 2015, 03:46:29 PM
So Franson is open to coming back. If we move Phaneuf (or other salary anchors), would you bring him back to anchor a developing blue line (Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, Granberg, Loov), or would you just let Robidas player-coach the next year+?

Nah.

Sounds like Olli doesn't want to play here either. Do you think we can flip him in a package to a borderline contender in need of centre depth (Calgary? NYI?) for a 2nd/3rd + salary dump?

He's got 6 points in 48 games. We'd be lucky to get anything, let alone a second.

I wouldn't be against bringing him back but the reality is that he's the #1 defenseman and arguably the #1 free agent in the offseason.  He's going to get a long-term, high value contract and the question isn't so much what Franson brings over the next 2-3 seasons, but what he brings 3-5 years from now when the Leafs are hopefully starting to climb back up the standings.

He's not likely to be our #1 guy and Rielly is going to get paid down the road so Rielly + Gardiner + Franson all in high salary spots isn't likely a good approach to the blueline.

As for Jokinen.  They might be able to trade him for a late round draft pick, especially if they were aggressive and retained 50% of his salary but 6 points in 48 games is going to trump his 43 points last year.

Yeah, there's no way Franson is back in Toronto.  They couldn't come to terms now, and you can probably tack another $2 million/per on to his contract once he gets to free agency.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on February 15, 2015, 03:51:34 PM
So Franson is open to coming back. If we move Phaneuf (or other salary anchors), would you bring him back to anchor a developing blue line (Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, Granberg, Loov), or would you just let Robidas player-coach the next year+

Speaking of Robidas are we likely to get anything useful back for him? I guess at this point every little helps.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 03:55:05 PM
Speaking of Robidas are we likely to get anything useful back for him? I guess at this point every little helps.

It's unlikely and I'd keep him around anyway. He's exactly the sort of well regarded dressing room presence/over paid cap floor ballast that makes sense in a rebuild.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 15, 2015, 03:57:40 PM
Redleaf…the tank force is strong…but the circle is not yet complete!

I like the trade, Franson for all his strenghts did cough up the an awful lot, we are strong in offensive defensemen, what we need are a few defensive beasts and we seem to have a few on the way.  Santorelli is a hard working guy but it seems at his age that Leipsic is  younger perhaps a Darcy kind of agitator, the kind of discription they used to give Komorav years ago before he showed up. Now two agitators are better than one and Kadri pulls the penalties as well. Just the abrasiveness that a Shanaplan would want in place.
Olli, man I love Ollie, didnt someone post a flying waffle video with him in it a few years back. Hilarious.   Now if we can just turn Phanuef and Bozak/Winnek into two more first rounders.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: L K on February 15, 2015, 04:02:22 PM
Redleaf…the tank force is strong…but the circle is not yet complete!

I like the trade, Franson for all his strenghts did cough up the an awful lot, we are strong in offensive defensemen, what we need are a few defensive beasts and we seem to have a few on the way.  Santorelli is a hard working guy but it seems at his age that Leipsic is  younger perhaps a Darcy kind of agitator, the kind of discription they used to give Komorav years ago before he showed up. Now two agitators are better than one and Kadri pulls the penalties as well. Just the abrasiveness that a Shanaplan would want in place.
Olli, man I love Ollie, didnt someone post a flying waffle video with him in it a few years back. Hilarious.   Now if we can just turn Phanuef and Bozak/Winnek into two more first rounders.

(http://i.imgur.com/87Sl6.gif)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 04:02:50 PM
I wouldn't be against bringing him back but the reality is that he's the #1 defenseman and arguably the #1 free agent in the offseason.  He's going to get a long-term, high value contract and the question isn't so much what Franson brings over the next 2-3 seasons, but what he brings 3-5 years from now when the Leafs are hopefully starting to climb back up the standings.

But along those lines, did Franson ever really make a lot of sense? Is he a five million dollar a year defenseman? Is he worth more?

He's racked up decent point totals the last few years but he's also sort of been stapled to a power play that, for all it's ineffectiveness, has some pretty talented offensive players. He's got 20 goals in 230+ games with the Leafs. Maybe it's just me but I don't watch too many games and think "Man, Franson really is generating some good chances". I think he's a good offensive defenseman but I'll be really interested to see how his point totals develop with Nashville.

Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 15, 2015, 04:06:27 PM
thanks LK for the Waffle, it really makes me laugh.  Maybe when Bozak is gone, (in 5 parsecs) Olli can centre for Kessel. and cook him some waffles at the same time.  Man this tank is better than getting beaten in the first round. LOL
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2015, 04:09:01 PM

But along those lines, did Franson ever really make a lot of sense? Is he a five million dollar a year defenseman? Is he worth more?

He's racked up decent point totals the last few years but he's also sort of been stapled to a power play that, for all it's ineffectiveness, has some pretty talented offensive players. He's got 20 goals in 230+ games with the Leafs. Maybe it's just me but I don't watch too many games and think "Man, Franson really is generating some good chances". I think he's a good offensive defenseman but I'll be really interested to see how his point totals develop with Nashville.

Well, some team was dumb enough to give Clarkson a $5 million deal. So Franson should get that easily!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2015, 04:11:33 PM
That video is hilarious, by the way!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 04:20:24 PM
Well, some team was dumb enough to give Clarkson a $5 million deal. So Franson should get that easily!

Sure but let's say Franson ends up signing for something pretty reasonable like 4 years and 20 million. Would that be good? Is he worth that? Would we be really jazzed about having Franson on the blue line for the next four years?

Maybe I just never warmed to the guy but I never really saw Franson as a guy who could be a big part of a contending team.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 15, 2015, 04:21:13 PM
forgot Ollie is Finish, I hope they team him up with Komrade Komorav for a bit
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 15, 2015, 04:25:13 PM
The Leafs have 4 or 5 good possibilities for defense with the Marlies, clearly being groomed in both the defensive and offensive aspects of the game. So with Phanuef gone (god I hope so) and perhaps a good draft pick for Polak as well we could see our defence as:   Reilly, Gardiner, Holzer, Percy, Loov, Granberg or Niilson or Valiet.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 04:33:23 PM
Well, some team was dumb enough to give Clarkson a $5 million deal. So Franson should get that easily!

Maybe I just never warmed to the guy but I never really saw Franson as a guy who could be a big part of a contending team.

I guess we'll soon find out. My guess is that he'll fit in on that team very well.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2015, 04:37:15 PM
Sure but let's say Franson ends up signing for something pretty reasonable like 4 years and 20 million. Would that be good? Is he worth that? Would we be really jazzed about having Franson on the blue line for the next four years?

Maybe I just never warmed to the guy but I never really saw Franson as a guy who could be a big part of a contending team.

I don't know, it can be tough to get a good read on a player when he's on a team like the Leafs. That said, he makes too many boneheaded giveaways in his own end for my liking, and is kind of slow. I think $5 million per is too expensive for what he brings to the team, especially if the Leafs are really going to tear things down.

That said, it will be very interesting to see how he does on a better team like Nashville. I think that will ultimately play a big role in what kind of contract he is able to get.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 15, 2015, 04:38:59 PM
I guess we'll soon find out. My guess is that he'll fit in on that team very well.

He might work well as a specialist but I really wonder about how big a part of that team he'll end up being. He's not going to supplant Weber or Josi. Are they going to play him over Jones? Probably not. He'll probably be the #4 defenseman and get some time on the #1 power-play. So that's a fine enough thing to add for a playoff run but if you're signing him to a long-term extension at that kind of money I think you're going to need to get something more.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 15, 2015, 05:01:58 PM
I guess we'll soon find out. My guess is that he'll fit in on that team very well.

He might work well as a specialist but I really wonder about how big a part of that team he'll end up being. He's not going to supplant Weber or Josi. Are they going to play him over Jones? Probably not. He'll probably be the #4 defenseman and get some time on the #1 power-play. So that's a fine enough thing to add for a playoff run but if you're signing him to a long-term extension at that kind of money I think you're going to need to get something more.

Josi (having a career year) and Weber are on the #1 PP. I doubt Laviolette will mess with that so I'd guess he's #4 or #5 D-man (once Ellis returns) and #2 PP.

The more I think about the trade, it would've been huge to somehow pry Fiala away form them in the deal but I'd guess that Nonis definitely tried (and failed) to include him in the deal.

It's not a sign of much but the HF boards Preds fans were pretty gutted to give up Leipsic and a first for Franson and Santo.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bonsixx on February 15, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
From Lebrun:

What made this deal possible is that Nashville was willing to give Toronto the first-round pick that I don't think the Maple Leafs could have gotten had they dealt Franson and Santorelli in separate deals. They might have received a second-round pick plus a prospect, maybe, for Franson, and a second-round pick in a separate Santorelli deal, but highly doubtful a first-round pick would have been in the picture.

By combining the two rental players in one deal, Nonis was able to get his first-round pick.


http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Mike1 on February 15, 2015, 05:27:44 PM
Well, it's a start.

 A 1st round pick for Franson is fair, can't say anything about Leipsic because I haven't seen him play, other than the fact I hope he pans out now that he is a Leaf. If he could become another younger version of Santorelli, I'd take that.

Hopefully there is alot more good trades for the Leafs to come at the deadline & it isn't just the Winnik deal.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 15, 2015, 05:28:54 PM
Now please let Travis Konecny fall to the Leafs.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: slapshot on February 15, 2015, 05:44:00 PM
I don't think that the Leafs will get anything for Jokinen. He only has 3 goals and is overpaid. He was a salary dump. He could help with the tank though.

Whether the get another or not, he'll be gone as UFA after another 31 games or less. Ultimately, will free up $4.5 million in salary cap space, and potentially more if they were planning to re-sign Franson. Now if they could just move Phaneuf for a similar package and free up some more cap space.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: L K on February 15, 2015, 05:48:05 PM
I don't think that the Leafs will get anything for Jokinen. He only has 3 goals and is overpaid. He was a salary dump. He could help with the tank though.

Whether the get another or not, he'll be gone as UFA after another 31 games or less. Ultimately, will free up $4.5 million in salary cap space, and potentially more if they were planning to re-sign Franson. Not if they could just move Phaneuf for a similar package and free up some more cap space.

The best part of the season right now...there are only 25 games left.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: slapshot on February 15, 2015, 05:57:49 PM
I don't think that the Leafs will get anything for Jokinen. He only has 3 goals and is overpaid. He was a salary dump. He could help with the tank though.

Whether the get another or not, he'll be gone as UFA after another 31 games or less. Ultimately, will free up $4.5 million in salary cap space, and potentially more if they were planning to re-sign Franson. Not if they could just move Phaneuf for a similar package and free up some more cap space.

The best part of the season right now...there are only 25 games left.

Right...I forgot to add the OT games...even better.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bonsixx on February 15, 2015, 05:58:42 PM
I don't think that the Leafs will get anything for Jokinen. He only has 3 goals and is overpaid. He was a salary dump. He could help with the tank though.

Whether the get another or not, he'll be gone as UFA after another 31 games or less. Ultimately, will free up $4.5 million in salary cap space, and potentially more if they were planning to re-sign Franson. Not if they could just move Phaneuf for a similar package and free up some more cap space.

The best part of the season right now...there are only 25 games left.

And it'll be kind of funny to see Jokinen have to skate out the year with the Leafs if he is really upset to join the team.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2015, 06:04:47 PM
Can't hurt to add a little more dysfunction to this already dysfunctional group. After all, the goal is the highest draft pick possible. Bring on Jokinen!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 15, 2015, 06:06:55 PM
More from the Lebrun blog Bonsixx quoted:

"Great deal for both teams," said a rival Western Conference team executive via text message Sunday. "Nashville is having one of those seasons where you have to go for it. They bolstered both ends of their lineup with two players [on expiring deals] who are 'coming home' and will be highly motivated after having escaped the circus in Toronto. The Leafs, on the other hand, moved two players whom they couldn't sign for a first-round pick in a very deep draft and a skilled, gritty prospect who typifies the new small forward that can play in the modern game."

The deal was spawned when Nonis stayed behind in Nashville two weeks ago after the Leafs played the Predators.

"Dave stayed for the Anaheim game, we had some talks, we had lunch together, we had talked before then but that allowed us to spend some quality time talking all the parameters and names and possible scenarios," said Poile. "It certainly gave us the foundation to make a deal."
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: The Good, The Bad & the Jokinen on February 15, 2015, 06:10:00 PM
Nice to see that we got close to what we set out to get from a couple of UFA's.
One of the rare time I agree with Nik... Santo as great as he is was found money. You have to trade that.

But more importantly I think overall we finally see Nonis trading soon to be UFA's rather then loosing them for nothing like has been the norm here for too long.

The Tank is real.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 15, 2015, 06:47:51 PM
Thank god another kind of tank outside of being a p_sstank. ;)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Madferret on February 15, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
From Lebrun:

What made this deal possible is that Nashville was willing to give Toronto the first-round pick that I don't think the Maple Leafs could have gotten had they dealt Franson and Santorelli in separate deals. They might have received a second-round pick plus a prospect, maybe, for Franson, and a second-round pick in a separate Santorelli deal, but highly doubtful a first-round pick would have been in the picture.

By combining the two rental players in one deal, Nonis was able to get his first-round pick.


http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop)

Lebrun knows.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 15, 2015, 08:09:05 PM
From Lebrun:

What made this deal possible is that Nashville was willing to give Toronto the first-round pick that I don't think the Maple Leafs could have gotten had they dealt Franson and Santorelli in separate deals. They might have received a second-round pick plus a prospect, maybe, for Franson, and a second-round pick in a separate Santorelli deal, but highly doubtful a first-round pick would have been in the picture.

By combining the two rental players in one deal, Nonis was able to get his first-round pick.


http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop)

Lebrun knows.

Yep, he sure knows his opinion.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 15, 2015, 08:10:47 PM
From Lebrun:

What made this deal possible is that Nashville was willing to give Toronto the first-round pick that I don't think the Maple Leafs could have gotten had they dealt Franson and Santorelli in separate deals. They might have received a second-round pick plus a prospect, maybe, for Franson, and a second-round pick in a separate Santorelli deal, but highly doubtful a first-round pick would have been in the picture.

By combining the two rental players in one deal, Nonis was able to get his first-round pick.


http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop)

Lebrun knows.

Yep, he sure knows his opinion.

*furiously scours internet for an opinion that matches my own*
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Big Daddy on February 15, 2015, 08:14:04 PM
The only thing that bothers me about this is if O.Jokinen actually dresses for a game will the Leafs actually allow him to wear his #13.  If so I'll be pissed.  Other than that I'm happy to get a pick and a pest
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 15, 2015, 08:39:23 PM
The only thing that bothers me about this is if O.Jokinen actually dresses for a game will the Leafs actually allow him to wear his #13.  If so I'll be pissed.  Other than that I'm happy to get a pick and a pest

Nothing says love like pulling you from the womb of the best team in the league, straight into a tire fire.  And then stripping your number off your back.  I'm sure he'll be ready to give his all... to the TANK!!   :P
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 15, 2015, 09:27:03 PM
The only thing that bothers me about this is if O.Jokinen actually dresses for a game will the Leafs actually allow him to wear his #13.  If so I'll be pissed.  Other than that I'm happy to get a pick and a pest

Except that Jussi Jokinen is the pest, not Olli.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 15, 2015, 09:34:55 PM
The only thing that bothers me about this is if O.Jokinen actually dresses for a game will the Leafs actually allow him to wear his #13.  If so I'll be pissed.  Other than that I'm happy to get a pick and a pest

Except that Jussi Jokinen is the pest, not Olli.

The pest in this case is Brendan Leipsic.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Mr. Leaf on February 15, 2015, 09:39:15 PM
I've seen a couple of people say that Jokinen is unhappy to be coming to Toronto.  Is that an assumption, or did he actually say that?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: moon111 on February 15, 2015, 09:41:10 PM
From Lebrun:

What made this deal possible is that Nashville was willing to give Toronto the first-round pick that I don't think the Maple Leafs could have gotten had they dealt Franson and Santorelli in separate deals. They might have received a second-round pick plus a prospect, maybe, for Franson, and a second-round pick in a separate Santorelli deal, but highly doubtful a first-round pick would have been in the picture.

By combining the two rental players in one deal, Nonis was able to get his first-round pick.


http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop)
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice. 
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: herman on February 15, 2015, 09:47:33 PM
I've seen a couple of people say that Jokinen is unhappy to be coming to Toronto.  Is that an assumption, or did he actually say that?

This is where I heard it from.

Quote
Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Let's just say Olli Jokinen was less than thrilled to hear he had been traded to the Leafs.

From the bench of a projected Cup finalist to a floundering franchise. Who wouldn't be a bit surly about that?

However, Nonis did remark in his presser:
Quote
"Olli hasn't played a lot. He's been in and out of the lineup there, so our plans with Olli are to get him playing, to get his game to the highest possible level, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are playoff teams that will be calling us (about him).

"He's a quality veteran who would provide a team that has a chance to win with some depth, so our immediate goal is to... get him playing."
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Mr. Leaf on February 15, 2015, 09:51:53 PM
I've seen a couple of people say that Jokinen is unhappy to be coming to Toronto.  Is that an assumption, or did he actually say that?

This is where I heard it from.

Quote
Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Let's just say Olli Jokinen was less than thrilled to hear he had been traded to the Leafs.

From the bench of a projected Cup finalist to a floundering franchise. Who wouldn't be a bit surly about that?

However, Nonis did remark in his presser:
Quote
"Olli hasn't played a lot. He's been in and out of the lineup there, so our plans with Olli are to get him playing, to get his game to the highest possible level, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are playoff teams that will be calling us (about him).

"He's a quality veteran who would provide a team that has a chance to win with some depth, so our immediate goal is to... get him playing."
Thanks, I appreciate that.  I don't blame him either, going from the penthouse to the basement, so to speak! :P
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: herman on February 15, 2015, 09:58:11 PM
No problem, Mr. Leaf.

There was also this reaction from Jokinen's wife, which I found amusing:
Quote
Katerina Jokinen @MrsJoki
Never did like mustard yellow
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: bustaheims on February 15, 2015, 10:07:21 PM
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice.

There's been 30 picks in the 1st round for 15 years now. To not call it a 1st rounder or not accept it as such is to be stuck in the ancient past.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 15, 2015, 10:18:54 PM
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice.

There's been 30 picks in the 1st round for 15 years now. To not call it a 1st rounder or not accept it as such is to be stuck in the ancient past.

One of the oddest criticisms I've read.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Madferret on February 15, 2015, 10:19:39 PM
From Lebrun:

What made this deal possible is that Nashville was willing to give Toronto the first-round pick that I don't think the Maple Leafs could have gotten had they dealt Franson and Santorelli in separate deals. They might have received a second-round pick plus a prospect, maybe, for Franson, and a second-round pick in a separate Santorelli deal, but highly doubtful a first-round pick would have been in the picture.

By combining the two rental players in one deal, Nonis was able to get his first-round pick.


http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nhl&id=34584&src=desktop)

Lebrun knows.

Yep, he sure knows his opinion.

*furiously scours internet for an opinion that matches my own*

I quoted it from this thread.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Rob on February 15, 2015, 10:22:53 PM
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice.

There's been 30 picks in the 1st round for 15 years now. To not call it a 1st rounder or not accept it as such is to be stuck in the ancient past.

Pffffft!  Anything outside of the first six picks is out of the 1st round.

Also, good on Nonis, I think he did quite well.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: skrackle on February 15, 2015, 10:24:13 PM
Yeah, I like this just fine. I wish I was from the American South so I could say that with the appropriate inflection. But then, I probably wouldn't be a Leafs fan.

Two first rounders in a reportedly very deep draft. Possibly more trades for picks to come between now and draft day. And a true Leaf rebuild (I'm really hoping) finally under way?

It's about time. And it really is, because even if it takes 5-7 years or so and there are some missteps, that time is going to pass anyway. What if Burke had started a real rebuild like I assumed he was going to and was dismayed when he didn't?

It's the only way forward, as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Madferret on February 15, 2015, 10:33:17 PM
Good on Nonis or Shanahan for being adaptable enough to pair them both up for the 1st rounder they were looking for though - they did what they needed to do to get their asking price met.

As the stats people most of you are it probably doesn't need pointing out that the 26-30 pick in the first round yields a 50-50 chance of becoming an NHL player. More specifically I think it's like a 14% chance for the pick to become a top-six forward / top-four defencemen.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 10:40:03 PM
Good on Nonis or Shanahan for being adaptable enough to pair them both up for the 1st rounder they were looking for though - they did what they needed to do to get their asking price met.

As the stats people most of you are it probably doesn't need pointing out that the 26-30 pick in the first round yields a 50-50 chance of becoming an NHL player. More specifically I think it's like a 14% chance for the pick to become a top-six forward / top-four defencemen.

Ya but the leafs are really really good at the draft picking.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Arn on February 15, 2015, 10:41:05 PM
Any chance of our first and Nashville's first for, say, Edmonton's first?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: pmrules on February 15, 2015, 11:25:15 PM
is phaneuf ready to play?   If not is Percy coming up to play?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 15, 2015, 11:34:30 PM
The only thing that bothers me about this is if O.Jokinen actually dresses for a game will the Leafs actually allow him to wear his #13.  If so I'll be pissed.  Other than that I'm happy to get a pick and a pest

Except that Jussi Jokinen is the pest, not Olli.

The pest in this case is Brendan Leipsic.

Too many beers  :o
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: hockeyfan1 on February 16, 2015, 12:49:14 AM
No problem, Mr. Leaf.
-
There was also this reaction from Jokinen's wife, which I found amusing:
Quote
Katerina Jokinen @MrsJoki
Never did like mustard yellow


Hmm.  She obviously hasn't got the Toronto blues.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 16, 2015, 02:36:45 AM
Any chance of our first and Nashville's first for, say, Edmonton's first?

So...two first round picks for a pick that might not end up higher than the pick they already have?

Nobody with a realistic shot at McDavid will trade their pick. Certainly not before the lottery.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Arn on February 16, 2015, 04:49:02 AM
Any chance of our first and Nashville's first for, say, Edmonton's first?

So...two first round picks for a pick that might not end up higher than the pick they already have?

Nobody with a realistic shot at McDavid will trade their pick. Certainly not before the lottery.

Yeah I meant more on the day of the draft. But I recognise it may be slightly unlikely...
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: moon111 on February 16, 2015, 08:51:52 AM
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice.

There's been 30 picks in the 1st round for 15 years now. To not call it a 1st rounder or not accept it as such is to be stuck in the ancient past.

One of the oddest criticisms I've read.
If it's not in the top 10, it's turning out to be a prospect that's suspect.  And I have no problem with rolling the dice on such rather then stay the course.  How many times have the Leafs picked in the top 10?  Yeah I see Bozak as the #1 center too. 

Here's what the latest 30th overall picks are doing:
John Quenneville -Brandon Wheat Kings
Ryan Hartman 2games 0 points
Tanner Pearson 42 games 16 points
Rickard Rakell 45 games 20 points
Brock Nelson 56 games 32 points
Simon Despres 53 games 15 points
Tom McCollum Goalie -3 NHL games.
Nick Ross - Austria
Matt Corrente - Syracuse
Vladimir Mikhalik -Bratislava

I would say Brock Nelson, playing with Tavares, is probably the best looking of the bunch.  But there's more fringe players or complete wash-outs.  If you wanted a better team, having cap space is more valuable then this draft pick.  Then again, it won't surprise me to try and trade their own 1st rounder this year for Tom Kurvers.

This '1st' rounder is organizational depth at best.  It's valuable, but not worth the hype like the Leafs are going to score the next Sidney Crosby with it.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bender on February 16, 2015, 09:45:20 AM
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice.

There's been 30 picks in the 1st round for 15 years now. To not call it a 1st rounder or not accept it as such is to be stuck in the ancient past.

One of the oddest criticisms I've read.
If it's not in the top 10, it's turning out to be a prospect that's suspect.  And I have no problem with rolling the dice on such rather then stay the course.  How many times have the Leafs picked in the top 10?  Yeah I see Bozak as the #1 center too. 

Here's what the latest 30th overall picks are doing:
John Quenneville -Brandon Wheat Kings
Ryan Hartman 2games 0 points
Tanner Pearson 42 games 16 points
Rickard Rakell 45 games 20 points
Brock Nelson 56 games 32 points
Simon Despres 53 games 15 points
Tom McCollum Goalie -3 NHL games.
Nick Ross - Austria
Matt Corrente - Syracuse
Vladimir Mikhalik -Bratislava

I would say Brock Nelson, playing with Tavares, is probably the best looking of the bunch.  But there's more fringe players or complete wash-outs.  If you wanted a better team, having cap space is more valuable then this draft pick.  Then again, it won't surprise me to try and trade their own 1st rounder this year for Tom Kurvers.

This '1st' rounder is organizational depth at best.  It's valuable, but not worth the hype like the Leafs are going to score the next Sidney Crosby with it.
But that has always been the case when poor teams trade for picks at the deadline. I don't understand why we're complaining about that.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: herman on February 16, 2015, 10:31:04 AM
I don't think draft position matters as much if you have a strong development system and a scouting department that recognizes the desired template you want to develop from (physical tools, talent, skills, teachability, etc.). This is something the Leafs struggled with in the past (along with having minimal picks at all) and is something that became a focus this past offseason.

I would take any chips we can get our hands on, blue or otherwise, and build from there on the ashes of what remains of the current team.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2015, 10:31:55 AM
Everyone knows the success rate of late first round picks is much lower than the top 5 or 10. And second rounders have an even lower hit rate. That's why you need to stockpile them at times like this. Having a bunch of picks increases the chances that one or more of them pan out. Or, they give you more flexibility to make other moves (such as trading up).

Part of the Leafs problem recently has been the lack of second round picks...perhaps if we'd kept more of them we'd have one or two better prospects in the system.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 16, 2015, 10:36:38 AM
Everyone knows the success rate of late first round picks is much lower than the top 5 or 10. And second rounders have an even lower hit rate. That's why you need to stockpile them at times like this. Having a bunch of picks increases the chances that one or more of them pan out. Or, they give you more flexibility to make other moves (such as trading up).

Part of the Leafs problem recently has been the lack of second round picks...perhaps if we'd kept more of them we'd have one or two better prospects in the system.

Agreed. Also, getting this late 1st is almost akin to recouping the 2nd they traded away. I don't see a ton more value in a late round 1st compared to an early 2nd rounder.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: gunnar36 on February 16, 2015, 11:07:44 AM
Pretty good return for Franson, considering many of the posters here were willing to let him go for a bag of pucks last spring.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 16, 2015, 11:32:03 AM
A '1st round' pick... which for most my life would of been a 2nd rounder if it weren't for expansion.  To call it a '1st' rounder really isn't doing it justice.

There's been 30 picks in the 1st round for 15 years now. To not call it a 1st rounder or not accept it as such is to be stuck in the ancient past.

One of the oddest criticisms I've read.
If it's not in the top 10, it's turning out to be a prospect that's suspect.  And I have no problem with rolling the dice on such rather then stay the course.  How many times have the Leafs picked in the top 10?  Yeah I see Bozak as the #1 center too. 

Here's what the latest 30th overall picks are doing:
John Quenneville -Brandon Wheat Kings
Ryan Hartman 2games 0 points
Tanner Pearson 42 games 16 points
Rickard Rakell 45 games 20 points
Brock Nelson 56 games 32 points
Simon Despres 53 games 15 points
Tom McCollum Goalie -3 NHL games.
Nick Ross - Austria
Matt Corrente - Syracuse
Vladimir Mikhalik -Bratislava

I would say Brock Nelson, playing with Tavares, is probably the best looking of the bunch.  But there's more fringe players or complete wash-outs.  If you wanted a better team, having cap space is more valuable then this draft pick.  Then again, it won't surprise me to try and trade their own 1st rounder this year for Tom Kurvers.

This '1st' rounder is organizational depth at best.  It's valuable, but not worth the hype like the Leafs are going to score the next Sidney Crosby with it.

I would say the jury is still very much out on a Ross, Corrente and Mikhalik.

Any of Despres, Pearson, Rakell or Nelson would be welcome additions to this team (especially at this point). They're all young players will good skill and upside (If you watch the Islanders, you know he doesn't play with Tavares except on the odd PP).

That's 4 of the 10 you listed looking like productive NHL'ers (with 2 being too young to write off).

I'm not sure anyone is saying they're the next Crosby (but in a deeper draft it's possible that we end up with a better player than previous 30th overalls) but rather a good young player, who's cheaper for the short and longer term than either of Franson or Santorelli.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 16, 2015, 11:44:29 AM
This '1st' rounder is organizational depth at best.  It's valuable, but not worth the hype like the Leafs are going to score the next Sidney Crosby with it.

Name someone or link to where that is something that is being said.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 11:47:20 AM
I would say the jury is still very much out on a Ross, Corrente and Mikhalik.

Nah, they're more likely finished as NHL players. McCollum too maybe but he's showing signs of life this season. But I'd say every single other player on that list is either a contributing young NHL player or a prospect that isn't showing any signs of busting yet.

Quenneville was just drafted and was ranked New Jersey's 3rd best prospect by Corey Pronman. Ryan "0 points" Hartman is just 20 years old and was ranked Chicago's 2nd best prospect behind Teravainen, and the 66th best prospect in the league. Pearson, Rakell, Nelson, and Despres, like you said, are all young and contributing NHL players who still haven't reached their peaks.

So that's 6 straight 30th overall picks that appear to be turning out pretty good.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 12:05:35 PM
But that has always been the case when poor teams trade for picks at the deadline. I don't understand why we're complaining about that.

A 1st round draft pick is still 30 picks better than a teams next best draft pick. If the Leafs couldn't have secured a 1st rounder here they would have had to settle for a 2nd round pick from a playoff team, which as we all know is basically just an early 3rd rounder. This really is a very strange thing to complain about.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 16, 2015, 12:26:14 PM
If it's not in the top 10, it's turning out to be a prospect that's suspect.  And I have no problem with rolling the dice on such rather then stay the course.  How many times have the Leafs picked in the top 10?  Yeah I see Bozak as the #1 center too. 

Here's what the latest 30th overall picks are doing:
John Quenneville -Brandon Wheat Kings
Ryan Hartman 2games 0 points
Tanner Pearson 42 games 16 points
Rickard Rakell 45 games 20 points
Brock Nelson 56 games 32 points
Simon Despres 53 games 15 points
Tom McCollum Goalie -3 NHL games.
Nick Ross - Austria
Matt Corrente - Syracuse
Vladimir Mikhalik -Bratislava

I would say Brock Nelson, playing with Tavares, is probably the best looking of the bunch.  But there's more fringe players or complete wash-outs.  If you wanted a better team, having cap space is more valuable then this draft pick.  Then again, it won't surprise me to try and trade their own 1st rounder this year for Tom Kurvers.

This '1st' rounder is organizational depth at best.  It's valuable, but not worth the hype like the Leafs are going to score the next Sidney Crosby with it.

That's all disingenuous for any number of reasons. For starters we didn't trade for the 30th pick. That's the worst case scenario. The pick could end up at #22 and if you made a list of players taken there over the same time frame you'd have to include Jordan Eberle, Max Pacioretty and Claude Giroux.

But regardless, impact players are taken in the second round every single year. There is no way for a team to know who that'll be ahead of time so the best case scenario is for a team to have as many chances as possible there. The idea that the "cap space" a pick represents is more valuable than that isn't just ridiculous, it's demonstrably false. There isn't a team in the league, developing or otherwise, that would trade their first round pick just to get a couple million off the books.

More over, nobody is saying that they'll take a guaranteed superstar so the only one engaging in pointless hyperbole is you by positioning your comment as some sort of rebuttal to an argument that isn't being made
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 16, 2015, 12:45:19 PM
I would say the jury is still very much out on a Ross, Corrente and Mikhalik.

Nah, they're more likely finished as NHL players. McCollum too maybe but he's showing signs of life this season. But I'd say every single other player on that list is either a contributing young NHL player or a prospect that isn't showing any signs of busting yet.

Quenneville was just drafted and was ranked New Jersey's 3rd best prospect by Corey Pronman. Ryan "0 points" Hartman is just 20 years old and was ranked Chicago's 2nd best prospect behind Teravainen, and the 66th best prospect in the league. Pearson, Rakell, Nelson, and Despres, like you said, are all young and contributing NHL players who still haven't reached their peaks.

So that's 6 straight 30th overall picks that appear to be turning out pretty good.

Not to mention that it doesn't really make sense to compare specific draft positions year to year.  The success or lack of success of a specific draft position is largely irrelevant when you're talking about varying draft strengths, teams, scouts, etc.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Frank E on February 16, 2015, 12:49:07 PM

Not to mention that it doesn't really make sense to compare specific draft positions year to year.  The success or lack of success of a specific draft position is largely irrelevant when you're talking about varying draft strengths, teams, scouts, etc.

That's all good and fine, but I prefer my comparisons to fit into neat and tidy fake argument tables that don't prove any points whatsoever.  So I like it.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: moon111 on February 16, 2015, 12:52:06 PM
This '1st' rounder is organizational depth at best.  It's valuable, but not worth the hype like the Leafs are going to score the next Sidney Crosby with it.

Name someone or link to where that is something that is being said.
“Our goal was to get as high a pick as possible,” Leafs general manager David Nonis said via conference call.

-sorry to me this was not one of the bigger aspects of the trade.  But then again I guess Nonis wasn't about to come out and say he really just wanted to dump contracts as he's handcuffed the team.

I just wonder if this trade would be as accepted if it were Franson, Santorelli for Leipsic, Jokinen, and a 2nd rounder.  The difference between 30th and 31st overall isn't much but makes the deal so much better sounding.
Guess I'm slightly miffed? jaded? disappointed? with years of depth players coming from 1st round picks but little in the way of key players.  Clark and Damphousse were pretty decent, but a true franchise player hasn't been had since the 1970 draft.  So another late round draft pick kind of just pisses me off.  Seems like every year the Leafs are the 'worst' team ever, yet 10 or more teams nobody talks about do worst.  Result: decades of mediocre.

If Oli does join the team, will he get Komarov on the wing?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 16, 2015, 12:52:35 PM
I am a lot more confident with Hunter and Dubois evaluating talent for the coming draft.  We can't afford another Tyler Biggs. We need guys who will play.  And we will need at least 3 strong drafts to get us to where we need to go.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2015, 12:52:46 PM
Just looking at one year - the oldest (2005) when Mihalik was picked at 30. Some players who were still available and picked later included James Neal (33, 463 games), Marc-Edouard Vlasic (35, 653 games), Paul Stastny (44, 586 games), Kris Letang (62, 472 games), Keith Yandle (105, 552 games).  And many others who played at least 200 games.

Obviously it's not easy to identify those talents or Tampa would have picked one of those players instead of Mihalik.

Also note that the players picked at #13, 14 and 16 didn't play a single NHL game.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 12:54:07 PM
I just wonder if this trade would be as accepted if it were Franson, Santorelli for Leipsic, Jokinen, and a 2nd rounder.  The difference between 30th and 31st overall isn't much but makes the deal so much better sounding.

But Nashville (or any team that the Leafs were talking to) didn't have the 31st overall draft pick. It would have likely been 56-60th.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 16, 2015, 12:54:39 PM
Dont forget we do have a shot at Mcdavid or Eischel if the tank goes on.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2015, 12:55:25 PM
Right, so basically if we'd made the trade with Buffalo or Edmonton and gotten their second rounder plus a prospect. Not really much difference. I'm sure some would complain but people complain about everything.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 01:14:08 PM
Right, so basically if we'd made the trade with Buffalo or Edmonton and gotten their second rounder plus a prospect. Not really much difference. I'm sure some would complain but people complain about everything.

Except for the obvious that Edmonton or Buffalo would never make those trades. The only picks available to us were likely in the 16-30 range and in the 46-60 range. Maybe even that's too big of a range as borderline playoff teams would likely not be dealing their 1sts in the fear of possibly falling out and losing a McDavid pick, or just because they don't feel that they're a Franson-away from winning the Cup. So really the range was probably more likely 20-30 and 50-60. The fact that they got something in that first group shouldn't be seen as anything less than a success.

Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: sickbeast on February 16, 2015, 01:17:58 PM
What are the Leafs lottery odds if they finish in 5th last as they are right now?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
What are the Leafs lottery odds if they finish in 5th last as they are right now?

Current lottery standings (and simulator) can be found here: http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

At 5th the Leafs have an 8.5% chance at McDavid.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Captain Canuck on February 16, 2015, 01:21:21 PM
Doesn't Nashville have to win the Cup for us to pick 30th? Playoff results determine draft position among playoff teams, not winning the President's Trophy. I feel pretty good about our chances of picking higher than 30th.

What is it with the Leafs and Finnish-born, 3rd overall draft picks by the LA Kings? Aki Berg and now Olli Jokinen. Way to corner that niche market!  ;)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2015, 01:22:49 PM
Right, so basically if we'd made the trade with Buffalo or Edmonton and gotten their second rounder plus a prospect. Not really much difference. I'm sure some would complain but people complain about everything.

Except for the obvious that Edmonton or Buffalo would never make those trades. The only picks available to us were likely in the 16-30 range and in the 46-60 range. Maybe even that's too big of a range as borderline playoff teams would likely not be dealing their 1sts in the fear of possibly falling out and losing a McDavid pick, or just because they don't feel that they're a Franson-away from winning the Cup. So really the range was probably more likely 20-30 and 50-60. The fact that they got something in that first group shouldn't be seen as anything less than a success.

Right, that was kind of my point though I didn't carry the explanation far enough. We did reasonably well. There are always good players available in the 22-30 range. The trick is identifying them. But if you don't have the pick, you have no chance.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 01:23:19 PM
Doesn't Nashville have to win the Cup for us to pick 30th? Playoff results determine draft position among playoff teams, not winning the President's Trophy. I feel pretty good about our chances of picking higher than 30th.

What is it with the Leafs and Finnish-born, 3rd overall draft picks by the LA Kings? Aki Berg and now Olli Jokinen. Way to corner that niche market!  ;)

Yup, rankings for playoff teams are based of success in the playoffs (and then reg. season points). If they get knocked out in the 1st round they likely pick 22nd. If they get knocked out in the 2nd round they likely pick 26th. I personally can't see a team with Riberio as their top centre getting into the Western conference finals, so it will probably be one of those two.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 01:38:35 PM
Dubois

Ok, I gotta ask, why?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Derk on February 16, 2015, 01:47:07 PM
What are the Leafs lottery odds if they finish in 5th last as they are right now?

Current lottery standings (and simulator) can be found here: http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

At 5th the Leafs have an 8.5% chance at McDavid.

Okay, I've run that three times over the last month and every time the Leafs have won. Is this thing rigged or something?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: TML fan on February 16, 2015, 02:04:03 PM
Since we all know the Leafs aren't winning the lottery, who should we realistically be hoping for in this draft, and does that player legitimately have a chance to be a franchise #1 centre?

I'm just asking because I don't know whether or not to be excited about this off season.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 02:07:27 PM
Since we all know the Leafs aren't winning the lottery, who should we realistically be hoping for in this draft, and does that player legitimately have a chance to be a franchise #1 centre?

I'm just asking because I don't know whether or not to be excited about this off season.

A few of us talked about this earlier today in another thread:

http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2444.msg216142#msg216142
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Captain Canuck on February 16, 2015, 02:26:59 PM
FYI, looks like Jokinen will be wearing #11 with the Leafs.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 04:10:10 PM
I wonder where Jokinen plays in the line-up. Horachek's confirmed he'll be at centre (he's played right-wing for the 1st time in his career all season long in Nashville). Nonis strongly suggested that he could be a trade chip come deadline time if his play improves. The top line's been in shambles for what feels like forever now. Maybe we see Jokinen-Kessel together to try and pad Olli's stats before the deadline?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: sickbeast on February 16, 2015, 04:12:01 PM
I would like to see him with Kessel actually. You never know.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 16, 2015, 06:54:59 PM
I would like to see him with Kessel actually. You never know.

If Ollie scores one game winning goal......
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 16, 2015, 11:43:12 PM
But looking at his career stats:  1217 NHL games played, and 6 total NHL playoff games.  That's a little depressing.

Outside of the fact that I want Nashville's 1st rounder to be as high a pick as possible, I think it would be hilarious if Jokinen got himself a Cup ring for participating in Nashville's season if they won the Cup, with all of 6 career playoff games under his belt.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: lamajama on February 17, 2015, 12:23:41 AM
I would like to see him with Kessel actually. You never know.

If Ollie scores one game winning goal......

Oh you know he's going to do some damage. He's Ollie Devereaux you know.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 17, 2015, 07:59:42 AM
Oh you know he's going to do some damage. He's Ollie Devereaux you know.

You know, we all hated Boyd at the time for doing that, but if it wasn't for his hat-trick we'd probably be sitting here with Luke and Brayden Schenn instead of JVR and Kadri. So... thanks Boyd?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Arn on February 18, 2015, 10:39:43 AM
Is Jokinen a UFA at the end of the year?

Is there any chance he might be a decent player to have around next year during a rebuild?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 18, 2015, 10:53:22 AM
Is Jokinen a UFA at the end of the year?

Is there any chance he might be a decent player to have around next year during a rebuild?

Yes, he is. As to the second part of the question that's something that gets thrown around a lot and I honestly don't think it's all that relevant a question. Or, to put it another way, I don't know if it's something you need to gameplan for. The whole character/mentor stuff I think is going to primarily come from coaches anyway.

I think the guys you want around in a rebuild are the guys who have something prove. Guys who are going to have real motivations to show up every day and play their best for whatever reason. Whether that's a player on a one year deal or someone not ready to call it a career or someone like Grabo last year who was largely passed over in free agency. If the team stinks there's really a limit to the effect locker room stuff is going to have.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 18, 2015, 11:40:41 AM
Is Jokinen a UFA at the end of the year?

Is there any chance he might be a decent player to have around next year during a rebuild?

Give him a 1-year extension while saying "we will absolutely play you at centre, if you're doing well then we can send you to a legit contender" and we might even get a decent pick back.  Meanwhile Strome/Eichel/?? is developing with the Marlies, gets his feet wet at end of 2015-16 season after Olli traded.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 18, 2015, 11:45:06 AM
Give him a 1-year extension while saying "we will absolutely play you at centre, if you're doing well then we can send you to a legit contender" and we might even get a decent pick back.  Meanwhile Strome/Eichel/?? is developing with the Marlies, gets his feet wet at end of 2015-16 season after Olli traded.

If we could get him on a Santorelli/Winnik type deal and the team trades Bozak before the season, then depending on what else is out there in August I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. But that's only if Bozak is moved, as things stand right now Jokinen would just be getting in the way of Holland's development.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 18, 2015, 12:21:22 PM
Give him a 1-year extension while saying "we will absolutely play you at centre, if you're doing well then we can send you to a legit contender" and we might even get a decent pick back.  Meanwhile Strome/Eichel/?? is developing with the Marlies, gets his feet wet at end of 2015-16 season after Olli traded.

If we could get him on a Santorelli/Winnik type deal and the team trades Bozak before the season, then depending on what else is out there in August I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. But that's only if Bozak is moved, as things stand right now Jokinen would just be getting in the way of Holland's development.

I guess I've already written off Bozak as being gone (either now or off-season).
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 18, 2015, 01:03:32 PM
I think Bozak is definetly on the way out, may go with Winneck in a package a la Franson/Santorelli deal.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: freer on February 18, 2015, 01:12:57 PM
I think Bozak is definetly on the way out, may go with Winneck in a package a la Franson/Santorelli deal.

I would agree with you, by that time, he may be a 20 goal scorer or close, with a cap friendly salary. IMO I would not mind keeping Winnick ever though people seem to think he is a dime a dozen player.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 18, 2015, 01:19:37 PM
Give him a 1-year extension while saying "we will absolutely play you at centre, if you're doing well then we can send you to a legit contender" and we might even get a decent pick back.  Meanwhile Strome/Eichel/?? is developing with the Marlies, gets his feet wet at end of 2015-16 season after Olli traded.

If we could get him on a Santorelli/Winnik type deal and the team trades Bozak before the season, then depending on what else is out there in August I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. But that's only if Bozak is moved, as things stand right now Jokinen would just be getting in the way of Holland's development.

I guess I've already written off Bozak as being gone (either now or off-season).

I think it'll be tougher than you think. To make his salary palatable I think a team would have to see him as a #2 centre and that seems like a bit of a sell at this point.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 18, 2015, 01:36:01 PM
$4.2 million cap hit (thank you, Leaf management). Bozak is the one player I would like to see gone regardless of the return. Well, other than Clarkson but I've come to accept the fact he's not going anywhere.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 18, 2015, 01:36:42 PM
Give him a 1-year extension while saying "we will absolutely play you at centre, if you're doing well then we can send you to a legit contender" and we might even get a decent pick back.  Meanwhile Strome/Eichel/?? is developing with the Marlies, gets his feet wet at end of 2015-16 season after Olli traded.

If we could get him on a Santorelli/Winnik type deal and the team trades Bozak before the season, then depending on what else is out there in August I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. But that's only if Bozak is moved, as things stand right now Jokinen would just be getting in the way of Holland's development.

I guess I've already written off Bozak as being gone (either now or off-season).

I think it'll be tougher than you think. To make his salary palatable I think a team would have to see him as a #2 centre and that seems like a bit of a sell at this point.

Bozak & Lupul to DET for Weiss & Pulkkinen  ;D

clearly i am getting feverish from weeks of trade speculation
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 18, 2015, 01:40:18 PM
Give him a 1-year extension while saying "we will absolutely play you at centre, if you're doing well then we can send you to a legit contender" and we might even get a decent pick back.  Meanwhile Strome/Eichel/?? is developing with the Marlies, gets his feet wet at end of 2015-16 season after Olli traded.

If we could get him on a Santorelli/Winnik type deal and the team trades Bozak before the season, then depending on what else is out there in August I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. But that's only if Bozak is moved, as things stand right now Jokinen would just be getting in the way of Holland's development.

I guess I've already written off Bozak as being gone (either now or off-season).

I think it'll be tougher than you think. To make his salary palatable I think a team would have to see him as a #2 centre and that seems like a bit of a sell at this point.

Bozak & Lupul to DET for Weiss & Pulkkinen  ;D

clearly i am getting feverish from weeks of trade speculation

It will be done and ready for approval and Detroit will be one of Bozak's 12 teams he has to accept a trade to and will decline.  BOOK IT.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
I guess I've already written off Bozak as being gone (either now or off-season).

I think it'll be tougher than you think. To make his salary palatable I think a team would have to see him as a #2 centre and that seems like a bit of a sell at this point.

Bozak & Lupul to DET for Weiss & Pulkkinen  ;D

clearly i am getting feverish from weeks of trade speculation

It will be done and ready for approval and Detroit will be one of Bozak's 12 teams he has to accept a trade to and will decline.  BOOK IT.

OK fine, Lupul/Bozak/Kessel for Pulkkinen/Weiss/Nyqvist

Get Eric Nystrom from NASH and have awesome line of Nystrom/Nylander/Nyqvist

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA  *overheats*
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: cw on February 18, 2015, 03:56:42 PM
I wasn't a big fan of Franson though he'd obviously improved. Didn't mind Santorelli. First round picks are hard to come by - particularly in a good draft year. Like many, I think it was a fair and reasonable deal.

Even better, I'm glad for the true rebuild. I've wanted since JFJ and before the Quinn years. I hope they stick to their guns on it.

I've talked about this years before:
http://www.tsn.ca/talent/shanahan-should-emulate-wings-in-rebuild-1.208987
A key reason the Wings are good is because they get great price performance out of their prospects ... because they develop them like good wine - let them "age" properly. When they finally come up, they're ready, can really play and don't cost $4 mil per season (because they had one good one).

As rotten as this season is, I think this rebuild is great, overdue news. In time, it won't be as hard to cheer for an organization doing things right. Doesn't guarantee a Cup but there's a better chance they'll get a number of good runs at it and be more consistently respectable - and you usually have to do that if you're ever going to have a parade.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: herman on February 18, 2015, 04:21:13 PM
I wasn't a big fan of Franson though he'd obviously improved. Didn't mind Santorelli. First round picks are hard to come by - particularly in a good draft year. Like many, I think it was a fair and reasonable deal.

Even better, I'm glad for the true rebuild. I've wanted since JFJ and before the Quinn years. I hope they stick to their guns on it.

I've talked about this years before:
http://www.tsn.ca/talent/shanahan-should-emulate-wings-in-rebuild-1.208987
A key reason the Wings are good is because they get great price performance out of their prospects ... because they develop them like good wine - let them "age" properly. When they finally come up, they're ready, can really play and don't cost $4 mil per season (because they had one good one).

As rotten as this season is, I think this rebuild is great, overdue news. In time, it won't be as hard to cheer for an organization doing things right. Doesn't guarantee a Cup but there's a better chance they'll get a number of good runs at it and be more consistently respectable - and you usually have to do that if you're ever going to have a parade.

^ This was precisely what I hoped for when the offseason management moves were made. I hope they actually follow through now that ownership has committed to rebuild, rather than trying to buy our way into nearly-almost-winning-but-failing-dramatically. I don't mind Nonis being the triggerman on player moves, as he has a lot of buffer from making Clarksons mistakes: Dubas to identify gaps in the numbers and eke out value from market weakspots; Hunter to ID player template to target; Pridham to make sure the salary is sound; Nonis as the meat puppet with networking.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Arn on February 18, 2015, 05:07:11 PM
I think Bozak is definetly on the way out, may go with Winneck in a package a la Franson/Santorelli deal.

Yeah I based my earlier question re keeping Jokinen as a top line centre on assuming that Bozak would be gone.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Joe S. on February 18, 2015, 06:29:21 PM
You say keep jokinen as if he has any interest in signing with the leafs.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 19, 2015, 10:32:39 AM
Can we live with Kadri, Holland, Strome and Carrick/McKegg as our Centres. Perhaps a veteran presense like Ollie would be good to have
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: pmrules on February 19, 2015, 10:41:28 AM
Can we live with Kadri, Holland, Strome and Carrick/McKegg as our Centres. Perhaps a veteran presense like Ollie would be good to have

Gauthier?  Nylander? (or is he more of a winger?)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 19, 2015, 03:54:48 PM
Gauthier, needs a least two years with the Marlies and Nylander will be a winger (more than likely).
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: freer on February 20, 2015, 08:07:31 AM
Gauthier, needs a least two years with the Marlies and Nylander will be a winger (more than likely).

two years is fine. It is going to take that long to clear up the majority of this mess Nonis has made.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: hockeyfan1 on February 20, 2015, 01:14:28 PM
Gauthier, needs a least two years with the Marlies and Nylander will be a winger (more than likely).

two years is fine. It is going to take that long to clear up the majority of this mess Nonis has made.


And boy what a mess he made!
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 20, 2015, 02:19:03 PM
Gauthier, needs a least two years games with the Marlies and Nylander will be a winger multiple Conn Smythe trophy winner (more than likely).

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 25, 2015, 06:20:41 PM
Looking at what the Hurricanes got for Sekerac, I think the Leafs may have undersold on Franson and Santorelli.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: gunnar36 on February 25, 2015, 10:00:01 PM
Looking at what the Hurricanes got for Sekerac, I think the Leafs may have undersold on Franson and Santorelli.

I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read about that trade, I would think Franson would have been the more coveted defenceman of the two. I am still happy with what we got for pending ufa's but it does appear that they may have jumped the gun a little with that deal.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 26, 2015, 10:57:34 AM
I have a feeling Leipsac could make us forget Cody (who) and Mike (what)?  Supposedly he can stickhandle in a phone booth and plays with grit and drive. Maybe a steal even without the picks.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 26, 2015, 11:20:18 AM
I have a feeling Leipsac could make us forget Cody (who) and Mike (what)?  Supposedly he can stickhandle in a phone booth and plays with grit and drive. Maybe a steal even without the picks.

I don't know.  With the advent of cell phones, there aren't too many phone booths on the ice anymore.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 26, 2015, 04:42:30 PM
I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read about that trade, I would think Franson would have been the more coveted defenceman of the two. I am still happy with what we got for pending ufa's but it does appear that they may have jumped the gun a little with that deal.

I had similar thoughts but then I looked into Sekera a bit and think that may not be the case. He's cheaper for this year by a significant margin which made him a more appealing rental and last year he was playing 23 minutes a night and was tied for 15th in defenseman scoring. His numbers were down a little this year but what he did in Carolina is probably closer to what he'll be expected to do in LA than Franson and Nashville.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 26, 2015, 04:47:24 PM
Even better SI. a cell phone is a very small phone booth indeed ;D
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 26, 2015, 04:53:02 PM
Even better SI. a cell phone is a very small phone booth indeed ;D

This is true :-).

In all seriousness though, The comparable that I keep hearing about for Leipsic is Brendan Gallagher, which if it's  true, is a good thing.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 26, 2015, 05:49:37 PM
Yep if he is that or half a Darcy in his prime then good for us. Hey dont get me wrong I like Cody and Mike but we need new young guys with piss and vinegar whom want to win and and have the time to develop. I like the moves the Leafs are making. Now just get rid of Bozak, please
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bullfrog on February 26, 2015, 06:33:35 PM
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/who_vs_whom
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 26, 2015, 06:47:51 PM
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/who_vs_whom

So you are the guy "who posts links like that" and highlander is to whom links like that get posted too?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bullfrog on February 26, 2015, 06:49:49 PM
So you are the guy "who posts links like that" and highlander is to whom links like that get posted too?

http://grammarist.com/usage/to-too/

 :)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 26, 2015, 06:52:17 PM
So you are the guy "who posts links like that" and highlander is to whom links like that get posted too?

http://grammarist.com/usage/to-too/

 :)

TMLfans.ca....a place of learning.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Bullfrog on February 26, 2015, 06:53:47 PM
TMLfans.ca....a place of learning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

 :)
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 26, 2015, 06:59:06 PM
TMLfans.ca....a place of learning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

 :)

I'm now scared to type.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 26, 2015, 07:01:50 PM
The inter web is serious bizness you guys. 
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 26, 2015, 11:06:43 PM
Hi S.I.  I don't like Oatmeal, don't need it, won't buy it, so I don't know what you mean. My comments are my own.  However estatic Clarkson is gone.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 27, 2015, 08:45:26 AM
Hi S.I.  I don't like Oatmeal, don't need it, won't buy it, so I don't know what you mean. My comments are my own.  However estatic Clarkson is gone.

That wasn't directed at you, more at Bullfrog.  You know because you can't let the grammar police get away with that sort of thing.  Free speech and all that.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 27, 2015, 08:54:24 AM
Hi S.I.  I don't like Oatmeal, don't need it, won't buy it, so I don't know what you mean. My comments are my own.  However estatic Clarkson is gone.

That wasn't directed at you, more at Bullfrog.  You know because you can't let the grammar police get away with that sort of thing.  Free speech and all that.

It'd be less annoying if it wasn't blatantly obvious that he was just doing it to get a rise out of people.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 27, 2015, 11:10:51 AM
looking to entertain and amuse, not to get a rise out of folks.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: freer on February 27, 2015, 01:03:08 PM
Yep if he is that or half a Darcy in his prime then good for us. Hey dont get me wrong I like Cody and Mike but we need new young guys with piss and vinegar whom want to win and and have the time to develop. I like the moves the Leafs are making. Now just get rid of Bozak, please

they need to get rid of kessel Bozak Dion and Lupul. Get on it Nonnis
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Andy on February 27, 2015, 01:09:21 PM
Yep if he is that or half a Darcy in his prime then good for us. Hey dont get me wrong I like Cody and Mike but we need new young guys with piss and vinegar whom want to win and and have the time to develop. I like the moves the Leafs are making. Now just get rid of Bozak, please

they need to get rid of kessel Bozak Dion and Lupul. Get on it Nonnis

The last thing the Leafs need to do is "get rid" of Phil Kessel. And that isn't to say that I'm entirely against trading him. The thing is, Kessel has scored at an elite rate for the previous 3 years despite playing with zero top-line or elite players. This is a guy who plays 82 games just about every year. He's only 27. If he is traded, you trade him for a huge return, nothing less. You don't "get rid" of him, that is just an absolutely asinine comment.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: freer on February 27, 2015, 01:22:51 PM
Yep if he is that or half a Darcy in his prime then good for us. Hey dont get me wrong I like Cody and Mike but we need new young guys with piss and vinegar whom want to win and and have the time to develop. I like the moves the Leafs are making. Now just get rid of Bozak, please

they need to get rid of kessel Bozak Dion and Lupul. Get on it Nonnis

The last thing the Leafs need to do is "get rid" of Phil Kessel. And that isn't to say that I'm entirely against trading him. The thing is, Kessel has scored at an elite rate for the previous 3 years despite playing with zero top-line or elite players. This is a guy who plays 82 games just about every year. He's only 27. If he is traded, you trade him for a huge return, nothing less. You don't "get rid" of him, that is just an absolutely asinine comment.

YES he can score pts. He can not play a full team game. A true rebuild will not have the team built around him. IMO
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Highlander on February 27, 2015, 02:45:38 PM
and agreed with Andy007 on Phil.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Chris on February 27, 2015, 02:58:53 PM
I don't think anyone is suggesting the Leafs throw away Kessel without getting a lot in return. Obviously he has been one of the top scorers in the league over the past several years and has a combination of skills that is rarely seen.

The key question is, do the Leafs clear out the entire core (Phaneuf, Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Lupul) and do a true rebuild from the bottom up? If not, who do they keep. And does winning the lottery change the approach? Is McDavid good enough to step into the lineup as Kessel's center in a year or two...and if so, is that good for the Leafs? Or just another shortcut that avoids a true rebuild?

I go back and forth on this, though I think my preference is to wipe the slate clean and start over. It may take a while, though, to clear out all those contracts and get good value for all of them. And I'm far from confident that Leaf owership/management has the stomach/patience for a true build-from-scratch scenario.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 27, 2015, 03:03:41 PM
Yep if he is that or half a Darcy in his prime then good for us. Hey dont get me wrong I like Cody and Mike but we need new young guys with piss and vinegar whom want to win and and have the time to develop. I like the moves the Leafs are making. Now just get rid of Bozak, please

they need to get rid of kessel Bozak Dion and Lupul. Get on it Nonnis

The last thing the Leafs need to do is "get rid" of Phil Kessel. And that isn't to say that I'm entirely against trading him. The thing is, Kessel has scored at an elite rate for the previous 3 years despite playing with zero top-line or elite players. This is a guy who plays 82 games just about every year. He's only 27. If he is traded, you trade him for a huge return, nothing less. You don't "get rid" of him, that is just an absolutely asinine comment.

YES he can score pts. He can not play a full team game. A true rebuild will not have the team built around him. IMO

I suppose they need to get rid of Polak then too, can't win with guys like him who don't play a team game.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Rob on February 27, 2015, 03:22:10 PM
And I'm far from confident that Leaf owership/management has the stomach/patience for a true build-from-scratch scenario.

Then they will just get more of the same.

A roster of expensive dreck that other teams couldn't wait to get rid of,  over payed free agents and desperate trade moves.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Frank E on February 27, 2015, 03:25:22 PM
Yep if he is that or half a Darcy in his prime then good for us. Hey dont get me wrong I like Cody and Mike but we need new young guys with piss and vinegar whom want to win and and have the time to develop. I like the moves the Leafs are making. Now just get rid of Bozak, please

they need to get rid of kessel Bozak Dion and Lupul. Get on it Nonnis

The last thing the Leafs need to do is "get rid" of Phil Kessel. And that isn't to say that I'm entirely against trading him. The thing is, Kessel has scored at an elite rate for the previous 3 years despite playing with zero top-line or elite players. This is a guy who plays 82 games just about every year. He's only 27. If he is traded, you trade him for a huge return, nothing less. You don't "get rid" of him, that is just an absolutely asinine comment.

YES he can score pts. He can not play a full team game. A true rebuild will not have the team built around him. IMO

I suppose they need to get rid of Polak then too, can't win with guys like him who don't play a team game.

If the Leafs traded away all the players being suggested around here, they wouldn't be able to ice a roster, or hit the cap floor.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 27, 2015, 03:33:50 PM
If the Leafs traded away all the players being suggested around here, they wouldn't be able to ice a roster, or hit the cap floor.

One wrinkle that might come into play here is that Horton's cap hit would help the Leafs reach the floor if they jettisoned a bunch of contracts. Lets say Kadri and Bernier split $9mil in cap space and Phaneuf, Kessel, and Bozak are all traded away without any cap hits coming back to the team, the Leafs would have just over $41mil committed to only 12 players next season. It wouldn't be too hard to sign a handful of guys like we did last offseason in Winnik/Santorelli/Booth/Robidas to fill things out and hit a floor that'll be somewhere around $52mil.

edit: Forgot the $2mil-ish cap hit on the books for Gleason/Gunnarsson too.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: bustaheims on February 27, 2015, 03:38:27 PM
If the Leafs traded away all the players being suggested around here, they wouldn't be able to ice a roster, or hit the cap floor.

That's assuming they don't take any contracts back or anything. In terms of the cap floor, I'm pretty sure the Leafs have already hit it in terms of cap dollars they've spent to this point. That's a complete non-issue for this season. For future seasons, it's not all the difficult to do, either - you just have to sign some UFAs to short, possibly inflated deals. Filling out the roster for the rest of the season isn't difficult, either. There are guys on the Marlies that can be called up, players that can be picked up off waivers before Monday, etc., and, really, with most of the guys left to be moved, in the unlikely event it happens by the deadline on Monday, there will be contracts coming back to make it work for the other team's cap.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: TML fan on February 27, 2015, 04:04:45 PM
I don't think the Leafs will trade Kessel. No reason really. Just a feeling.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Deebo on February 27, 2015, 04:14:56 PM
The last thing we as fans need to worry about is hitting the cap floor.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Frank E on February 27, 2015, 05:25:06 PM
If the Leafs traded away all the players being suggested around here, they wouldn't be able to ice a roster, or hit the cap floor.

One wrinkle that might come into play here is that Horton's cap hit would help the Leafs reach the floor if they jettisoned a bunch of contracts. Lets say Kadri and Bernier split $9mil in cap space and Phaneuf, Kessel, and Bozak are all traded away without any cap hits coming back to the team, the Leafs would have just over $41mil committed to only 12 players next season. It wouldn't be too hard to sign a handful of guys like we did last offseason in Winnik/Santorelli/Booth/Robidas to fill things out and hit a floor that'll be somewhere around $52mil.

edit: Forgot the $2mil-ish cap hit on the books for Gleason/Gunnarsson too.

Yeah, just to respond to you and bustaMcthreadender, I was exaggerating  somewhat.  I just mean that they're not going to ice a team of plugs next season, so they're going to have to take some NHL players back in some of these proposed deals...they won't just be prospects and picks.

I'm surprised that not many are talking about moving JVR and his cap-friendly deal for a nice package.  I'd keep Lupul around for some veteran'ish presence. 

I think Kessel is gone this summer, but Phaneuf stays.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Lee-bo on February 27, 2015, 05:29:04 PM
I don't think the Leafs will trade Kessel. No reason really. Just a feeling.
Do we really want to keep Kessel around to show all these new young prospects how to take summers off and skip out on optional skates when you can?
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 27, 2015, 05:37:14 PM
I don't think the Leafs will trade Kessel. No reason really. Just a feeling.
Do we really want to keep Kessel around to show all these new young prospects how to take summers off and skip out on optional skates when you can?

Mr. Feschuk, welcome to the forums.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: wnc096 on February 27, 2015, 05:40:14 PM
I don't think the Leafs will trade Kessel. No reason really. Just a feeling.
Do we really want to keep Kessel around to show all these new young prospects how to take summers off and skip out on optional skates when you can?

I don't think prospects are 5 year old children, They are grown adults who can make their own decisions.  I think work ethic either is or isn't is a part of a persons personal attributes by the time they are 20 years old
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on February 27, 2015, 05:44:28 PM
I don't think the Leafs will trade Kessel. No reason really. Just a feeling.
Do we really want to keep Kessel around to show all these new young prospects how to take summers off and skip out on optional skates when you can?

I don't think prospects are 5 year old children, They are grown adults who can make their own decisions.  I think work ethic either is or isn't is a part of a persons personal attributes by the time they are 20 years old

I think it's valuable knowledge that you apparently don't have to work out or practice yet can be one of the top point getters in the NHL.

Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Nik Bethune on February 27, 2015, 05:45:57 PM

And if it's Damien Cox reporting on what the "word" is, well, you can take that to the bank. The money bank.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: cw on February 28, 2015, 10:54:04 AM
link (http://www.mynhltraderumors.com/2015/02/28/rumors-ii-blue-jackets-maple-leafs-red-wings-ducks-and-bruins/)
Darren Dreger on TSN radio: “I think that the Leafs look at Franson the way he is now on Nsh: a 4-5 D on a good team.” “the Leafs aren’t a good team, so why spend $ and term on a player that won’t be a long-term fit for you anyway”

That kind of expresses my sentiments and it's why I still don't mind this deal.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: L K on February 28, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
I do have a question about retaining cap hit on trades.  Is it an absolute or can it be a timed retention.  Say the Leafs trade Phaneuf but they have already used up their 3 retentions this year.  Can they retain contract through say Years 2-5 of the contract and then have it stopped for Year 6-7?  Or does it have to be an all-or-none kind of thing.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: RedLeaf on February 28, 2015, 11:41:55 AM
link (http://www.mynhltraderumors.com/2015/02/28/rumors-ii-blue-jackets-maple-leafs-red-wings-ducks-and-bruins/)
Darren Dreger on TSN radio: “I think that the Leafs look at Franson the way he is now on Nsh: a 4-5 D on a good team.” “the Leafs aren’t a good team, so why spend $ and term on a player that won’t be a long-term fit for you anyway”

That kind of expresses my sentiments and it's why I still don't mind this deal.

Good point. And a 4-5 D man is one of the final pieces teams look for near the end of a rebuild, and only if the team doesn't have a prospect that can fill that role in their system already.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: bustaheims on February 28, 2015, 12:58:52 PM
I do have a question about retaining cap hit on trades.  Is it an absolute or can it be a timed retention.  Say the Leafs trade Phaneuf but they have already used up their 3 retentions this year.  Can they retain contract through say Years 2-5 of the contract and then have it stopped for Year 6-7?  Or does it have to be an all-or-none kind of thing.

It's absolute. It's the same percentage of the cap hit and salary for the entire remainder of the contract.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Potvin29 on March 16, 2015, 03:21:51 PM
This article is rather terrible but it's easier than typing everything out.

http://thehockeywriters.com/cody-franson-mike-santorelli-not-working-in-nashville/

Not the starts they would have envisioned I imagine.  Santorelli has 1 assist in 13 games.
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: freer on March 16, 2015, 03:23:17 PM
This article is rather terrible but it's easier than typing everything out.

http://thehockeywriters.com/cody-franson-mike-santorelli-not-working-in-nashville/

Not the starts they would have envisioned I imagine.  Santorelli has 1 assist in 13 games.

Oh well. It sucks to be Nashville
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Al14 on March 16, 2015, 03:28:00 PM
This article is rather terrible but it's easier than typing everything out.

http://thehockeywriters.com/cody-franson-mike-santorelli-not-working-in-nashville/

Not the starts they would have envisioned I imagine.  Santorelli has 1 assist in 13 games.

Maybe the two of them are just looking too forward to re-signing in Toronto in the off season.   ???
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: freer on March 18, 2015, 07:49:54 AM
This article is rather terrible but it's easier than typing everything out.

http://thehockeywriters.com/cody-franson-mike-santorelli-not-working-in-nashville/

Not the starts they would have envisioned I imagine.  Santorelli has 1 assist in 13 games.

Maybe the two of them are just looking too forward to re-signing in Toronto in the off season.   ???

Santorelli would not be problem. Franson is going to want too much money
Title: Re: Franson, Santorelli to NSH for 1st round pick, Brendan Leipsic, Olli Jokinen
Post by: Al14 on March 18, 2015, 09:40:05 AM
This article is rather terrible but it's easier than typing everything out.

http://thehockeywriters.com/cody-franson-mike-santorelli-not-working-in-nashville/

Not the starts they would have envisioned I imagine.  Santorelli has 1 assist in 13 games.

Maybe the two of them are just looking too forward to re-signing in Toronto in the off season.   ???

Santorelli would not be problem. Franson is going to want too much money


Maybe, being back in Nashville makes Franson want to stay there.  Either that, or, maybe his money demands from the Leafs becomes more reasonable.