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Maple Leafs News and Views => Leafs Media Rumours => Topic started by: BlueWhiteBlood on September 29, 2011, 02:49:51 PM

Title: Nonis using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on September 29, 2011, 02:49:51 PM
From LeBrun

Leafs' trade talk

The Leafs' newfound depth, especially on defense, has the club working the phones to see if there's any interest in some of their players. Defenseman Carl Gunnarsson and center Tyler Bozak are among the names that have been discussed, but as of Wednesday, we're told nothing was close with any team. The Leafs could also start the season with eight defensemen on their roster. (http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/11585/rumblings-latest-on-talks-for-doughty-suter-rinne-kronwall-mccabe-and-more)

I know Burke has to do his best to get numbers down, but I don't really like the Bozak talk. Now maybe Bozak would fetch something of value, but, he could also turn out to be a long lasting quality player for us as well. Personally, I would rather we wait an see what we have in him. It all depends on what is offered of course, but with his solid rookie numbers, he could turn out to be one of those players that leaves here and blossoms somewhere else and I wouldn't like that. This could be the Turris/ Bozak rumour they're talking about, but I thought I would mention it, because it's coming straight from LeBrun.

Gunnarsson on the other hand may be the guy that the organization deems expendable, with the contract of Komisarek not being movable at this point and the emergence of young Gardiner. I think I'm okay with that, but obviously, my first choice to leave would be Komisarek. We could get a good pick for Carl I think, but maybe Burke is looking to package in order to land a bigger fish, we'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on September 29, 2011, 03:02:07 PM
I hoping for Ryan Clowe.....still.    :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on September 29, 2011, 03:05:08 PM
I hoping for Ryan Clowe.....still.    :)

Would be nice...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: You're right on September 29, 2011, 03:23:58 PM
If he could somehow manage to move the Komi contract in the process it would be nice. If not, any moves to make the team better using surplus assets is a good thing.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 29, 2011, 03:31:13 PM

I think the issue with Bozak isn't so much that people doubt the potential so much as it is that he's a little bit of a tweener. He's not your prototypical third line centre and he may not produce enough offensively to really be comfortably ensconced in a team's top 6.

So if Burke is looking to deal him, either for a more typical third line talent or for someone they think has a better shot at being a front line forward, I think we'd have to see any deal before we felt one way or the other about it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on September 29, 2011, 04:57:32 PM
I think we'd have to see any deal before we felt one way or the other about it.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I wouldn't be rushing to move either Gunnarsson or Bozak, but, if there's a move that clearly improves the team that involves one or both of them . . . well, I would imagine my thoughts on that would be obvious.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on September 29, 2011, 05:15:50 PM
I'm really hesitant to see any trade of Gunnarsson/Bozak right now without knowing how Lombardi responds to physical play/a return to professional hockey after a year.  He was never a dominant player to begin with, and while he isn't being asked to be the #1 centre, he very may well be required to fill in for Tim on the "1st" line more than we want. 

I think the Leafs would also be traded away guys who probably are more valuable to the Leafs than to other teams because they aren't big name players with a league-wide reputation.  Even in Toronto I feel like Gunnarsson's ability to play two-way hockey isn't valued as much as it should be.  He's a guy who is still relatively young and has gotten better each year in North America.  We are talking about a 24 year old defenseman who has really only played North American hockey for 2 years and he's pretty solid in the defensive zone, and has offensive abilities to probably be a 30-35 point player.

Obviously if a Lebda for Franson+Lombardi deal opens up, you jump at it, but I don't think you are going to find that kind of value in the early stages of the season. 

Beyond that, I think any move that essentially just creates a roster spot for Komisarek is a bad one.  I'm not sure what games Wilson/Burke/the Toronto Star have been watching, but I'm not seeing an improved Komisarek on the ice.  He's still a liability when the puck is on his stick.  He is still making passes (when not pressured) to his defense partner (who is being pressured), and he still doesn't do a good job of getting the puck out of the zone.  He has this "leadership" in the dressing room, but how much of that is actually worth anything when you already have a very vocal guy in Phaneuf on the blue-line, and you have guys like Armstrong in the forward ranks to provide a more veteran approach to the game.  4.5M defensemen who can barely stay in a fight for the 5-7th defenseman aren't exactly guys you need to be making a roster spot for.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on September 29, 2011, 08:31:23 PM
Would a Komisarek for a Rick DiPietro trade make sense?  (If Islanders are on the list of teams Mike would accept a trade to.)  Cap-wise, they're both $4.5 million.  Komi's salary is less.  DiPietro's contract is longer.  If the Leafs lost Komi, they could fill any needs easily.  If Gus is shaky, the Leafs don't have anywhere to turn.  Of course one would expect the Islanders to compensate for the contract differences.  (A 1st rounder would do nicely.  LOL)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on September 29, 2011, 08:39:07 PM
Cap-wise, they're both $4.5 million.  Komi's salary is less.  DiPietro's contract is longer. 

DiPietro's contract is seven years longer.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on September 29, 2011, 08:41:49 PM
Would a Komisarek for a Rick DiPietro trade make sense?  (If Islanders are on the list of teams Mike would accept a trade to.)  Cap-wise, they're both $4.5 million.  Komi's salary is less.  DiPietro's contract is longer.  If the Leafs lost Komi, they could fill any needs easily.  If Gus is shaky, the Leafs don't have anywhere to turn.  Of course one would expect the Islanders to compensate for the contract differences.  (A 1st rounder would do nicely.  LOL)

4.5 mil for a back-up keeper or 4.5 mil for a guy who at least plays ever day? I don't know, I might be inclined to not do that... especiallly considering there are "only" 3 years left on Komi's deal.  Or, are you suggesting we simply bury DiPietro in the minors? - Something we can't do with Komisarek.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on September 29, 2011, 08:46:59 PM
Maybe something involving Rolston?... I don't know.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on September 29, 2011, 08:48:28 PM
4.5M defensemen who can barely stay in a fight for the 5-7th defenseman aren't exactly guys you need to be making a roster spot for.

Could you walk me through the answer cause I'm dying to know...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on September 29, 2011, 09:05:46 PM
Would a Komisarek for a Rick DiPietro trade make sense?  (If Islanders are on the list of teams Mike would accept a trade to.)  Cap-wise, they're both $4.5 million.  Komi's salary is less.  DiPietro's contract is longer.  If the Leafs lost Komi, they could fill any needs easily.  If Gus is shaky, the Leafs don't have anywhere to turn.  Of course one would expect the Islanders to compensate for the contract differences.  (A 1st rounder would do nicely.  LOL)

Every which way I look at this, I have to say no.  Like someone else said, we don't need a $4.5mil backup that has a contract that still has 10yrs on it.  You think that Tucker's buyout was bad at $1mil still counting on the books, $4.5mil handicapping us for 10yrs is not the way to go.  And you don't want to send him down to the AHL because you want those spots to develop Rynnas, Scrivens, and eventually Owuya.  So, any which way you look at it, it doesn't make sense.  Especially for only a 1st rounder.  Now, if they packaged Tavares in there, I'd have to seriously seriously think about it, but it wouldn't make sense for the Islanders to do that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on September 29, 2011, 10:58:35 PM
Would a Komisarek for a Rick DiPietro trade make sense?  (If Islanders are on the list of teams Mike would accept a trade to.)  Cap-wise, they're both $4.5 million.  Komi's salary is less.  DiPietro's contract is longer.  If the Leafs lost Komi, they could fill any needs easily.  If Gus is shaky, the Leafs don't have anywhere to turn.  Of course one would expect the Islanders to compensate for the contract differences.  (A 1st rounder would do nicely.  LOL)

I'd rather give up a significant draft pick to not have to take on an even more significant cap albatross than make that deal. THat's how bad an idea I think it is.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on September 30, 2011, 10:54:07 AM
Sooo back to "depth to go shopping" vs. "how to dump Komisarek"...

I think its a tricky position for Burke unless he's going to move one or two players for prospects or picks.  What would a Gunarsson + Bozak package truly fetch that would be a big improvement on what the Leafs have right now?  I don't see it pulling in a forward better than any of the players in the top 6 or 7 unless its a guy who brings a truly different set of skills that is missing (like a big physical non-slug centre).

Might be best to make a move for picks if he can and bank them until they can be used on the right trade later on.  Only deal I've heard that makes sense other than this is the one for Turris.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: lamajama on September 30, 2011, 11:17:29 AM
Would a Komisarek for a Rick DiPietro trade make sense?  (If Islanders are on the list of teams Mike would accept a trade to.)  Cap-wise, they're both $4.5 million.  Komi's salary is less.  DiPietro's contract is longer.  If the Leafs lost Komi, they could fill any needs easily.  If Gus is shaky, the Leafs don't have anywhere to turn.  Of course one would expect the Islanders to compensate for the contract differences.  (A 1st rounder would do nicely.  LOL)

Every which way I look at this, I have to say no.  Like someone else said, we don't need a $4.5mil backup that has a contract that still has 10yrs on it.  You think that Tucker's buyout was bad at $1mil still counting on the books, $4.5mil handicapping us for 10yrs is not the way to go.  And you don't want to send him down to the AHL because you want those spots to develop Rynnas, Scrivens, and eventually Owuya.  So, any which way you look at it, it doesn't make sense.  Especially for only a 1st rounder.  Now, if they packaged Tavares in there, I'd have to seriously seriously think about it, but it wouldn't make sense for the Islanders to do that.

Well that would make Tavares a $9-$10 mil a year player then right (including Di P's $4.5 mil)? Nope. Not even for Tavares. When this first was suggested I thought it was an attempt to start a war.. ;D

On the actual thread front with Komi going nowhere, I would imagine that no team at this stage is going to make a move until the first month or so.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on September 30, 2011, 11:27:13 AM
I wouldn't be in any rush to move either Bozak or Gunnarsson.  Let's see how Bozak does this year; I think he has the potential to be a good 3C and to fill in on the first 2 lines as needed.  Gunnarsson is a solid young dman -- I've likened him to a blossoming Hjalmersson, a guy who is not going to garner headlines but who doesn't litter the ice surface with the remains of bonehead plays.  How many really bad games has Gunnar had?  Not many, and none that stick in my memory.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on September 30, 2011, 12:50:25 PM
I wouldn't be in any rush to move either Bozak or Gunnarsson.  Let's see how Bozak does this year; I think he has the potential to be a good 3C and to fill in on the first 2 lines as needed.  Gunnarsson is a solid young dman -- I've likened him to a blossoming Hjalmersson, a guy who is not going to garner headlines but who doesn't litter the ice surface with the remains of bonehead plays.  How many really bad games has Gunnar had?  Not many, and none that stick in my memory.

I think at this stage if they are going to move a guy, you want to move one out of a strong position and at higher value, so that would be why Gunarsson keeps coming up.  Aulie would be the only other guy who probably has really good value who they would consider moving right now, so if you are going to move a young d-man due to numbers and strike while the value is high, its one of those two for sure.

edit: not saying I think its a great idea to move either Gunarsson or Aulie, but at some point it would be good to see two or three "good" players turned into one "really good" one.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bender on September 30, 2011, 01:05:13 PM
I wouldn't be in any rush to move either Bozak or Gunnarsson.  Let's see how Bozak does this year; I think he has the potential to be a good 3C and to fill in on the first 2 lines as needed.  Gunnarsson is a solid young dman -- I've likened him to a blossoming Hjalmersson, a guy who is not going to garner headlines but who doesn't litter the ice surface with the remains of bonehead plays.  How many really bad games has Gunnar had?  Not many, and none that stick in my memory.

I think at this stage if they are going to move a guy, you want to move one out of a strong position and at higher value, so that would be why Gunarsson keeps coming up.  Aulie would be the only other guy who probably has really good value who they would consider moving right now, so if you are going to move a young d-man due to numbers and strike while the value is high, its one of those two for sure.

edit: not saying I think its a great idea to move either Gunarsson or Aulie, but at some point it would be good to see two or three "good" players turned into one "really good" one.

Agreed. It just has to be a prudent decision with some vacant roles replaced by prospects capable of playing at the NHL level.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Can8899 on September 30, 2011, 02:31:46 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to trading either Bozak or Gunnarsson.  I think Gunnarsson has more value and could help land us something nice in return.  Bozak, while still only starting his 3rd NHL season is 25 years old already.  While this is not too old for him to still develop, I think we still look at him as a prospect when he's really 2-3 years older then most prospects.  Bozak is also replaceable in the line-up.  We have both Colborne and Kadri ready and waiting to fill in at centre should the need arise.

I'm not saying trade them just for the sake of trading them but if Gunnar and Bozak could help land a solid piece then I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on September 30, 2011, 09:21:38 PM
I hope if they truly don't feel someone like Kadri will blossom, they're dealt.  But hopefully Burke doesn't sell out the youth just because he's feeling the heat for not making the playoffs.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 07, 2011, 03:46:22 PM

The Leafs are top heavy with defence. Franson watched last night’s game in a suit and while everyone likes the idea of competition on the blueline, the Leafs have in Keith Aulie a player who spent last season on the number one pairing. You have to give to get.  If Komisarek’s game is for real, they have more to give.

What the Leafs need that they have landed in David Steckel to win an obscene number of faceoffs, is another player who can goose the competition within the top six. Twenty scouts were signed up to attend the Leafs opener. That often means there is a little blood in the water. (http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=594887&navid=DL|TOR|home)

Interesting, is there normally that many scouts in attendance? Seems high.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on October 07, 2011, 04:17:49 PM

The Leafs are top heavy with defence. Franson watched last night’s game in a suit and while everyone likes the idea of competition on the blueline, the Leafs have in Keith Aulie a player who spent last season on the number one pairing. You have to give to get.  If Komisarek’s game is for real, they have more to give.

What the Leafs need that they have landed in David Steckel to win an obscene number of faceoffs, is another player who can goose the competition within the top six. Twenty scouts were signed up to attend the Leafs opener. That often means there is a little blood in the water. (http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=594887&navid=DL|TOR|home)

Interesting, is there normally that many scouts in attendance? Seems high.

Of all the guys that I would be ok with them trading, it would be Gunnarsson.  I think Franson could step right in there and play better than Gunnarsson at that position.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: puckhog78 on October 07, 2011, 05:14:26 PM

The Leafs are top heavy with defence. Franson watched last night’s game in a suit and while everyone likes the idea of competition on the blueline, the Leafs have in Keith Aulie a player who spent last season on the number one pairing. You have to give to get.  If Komisarek’s game is for real, they have more to give.

What the Leafs need that they have landed in David Steckel to win an obscene number of faceoffs, is another player who can goose the competition within the top six. Twenty scouts were signed up to attend the Leafs opener. That often means there is a little blood in the water. (http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=594887&navid=DL|TOR|home)

Interesting, is there normally that many scouts in attendance? Seems high.

There's usually 8-10 scouts at the average game, so youre right, that is an unsually high amount.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 07, 2011, 05:23:01 PM
There's usually 8-10 scouts at the average game, so youre right, that is an unsually high amount.

Maybe a few more of them were there to complete their book on Reimer. I'm sure a few teams are more worried about the Leafs gaoltending, than they have been in the past. Could be a few more looking to pluck a player though, which would make sense, as I'm sure Burke has conversations and shakes the bushes pretty consistently.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: oldrugbyguy on October 07, 2011, 05:44:23 PM
There's usually 8-10 scouts at the average game, so youre right, that is an unsually high amount.

Maybe a few more of them were there to complete their book on Reimer. I'm sure a few teams are more worried about the Leafs gaoltending, than they have been in the past. Could be a few more looking to pluck a player though, which would make sense, as I'm sure Burke has conversations and shakes the bushes pretty consistently.

I think the book on goalies are done with game tape. every game is available for review so scouts not needed for that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on October 07, 2011, 05:58:53 PM
When Burke makes a deal, quite frankly I never see it coming and am shocked by the results.  I can't anticipate who the Leafs would land. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on October 08, 2011, 08:14:07 AM
Gunnarson is one of my new favorite up and coming Leafs. I'd hate to deal a guy that we drafted and could turn out to be a great d-man in the league.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on October 08, 2011, 12:09:02 PM
It seems to me, they're going with one defenseman with offense, Phaneuf, Lilies, Gardiner and one stay-at-home, tough defenseman like Schenn, Komisarek, Aulie.   Gunnarson might be more well-rounded, but not sure he's the offensive or defensive force they're leaning towards. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on October 11, 2011, 10:01:03 AM
It seems to me, they're going with one defenseman with offense, Phaneuf, Lilies, Gardiner and one stay-at-home, tough defenseman like Schenn, Komisarek, Aulie.   Gunnarson might be more well-rounded, but not sure he's the offensive or defensive force they're leaning towards. 

True but you do need to have balanced guys as well and can't have a defense full of specialists.  In general, top pairing guys usually can bring it in all areas and certainly can't be weak in one, other than maybe offensive output.

Gunarsson playing with Phaneuf is only going to elevate his value that much more.   Same with Bozak who IMO the first two games is enjoying riding the wave of offense that Kessel & Lupul have delivered.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on October 11, 2011, 11:23:49 AM
i don't mind trading either bozak or gunnarson.  Aulie is a defensive dman like gunnarson but plays more physical, which makes gunnarson expendable.  Bozak couldn't put up good offensive numbers while playing with Kessel shows me that he is a 3rd liner at best.  I will not miss him either.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: pnjunction on October 11, 2011, 11:48:36 AM
i don't mind trading either bozak or gunnarson.  Aulie is a defensive dman like gunnarson but plays more physical, which makes gunnarson expendable.

I don't know about that, I've noticed Gunnarsson doing decent work on the second PP unit so far.  Aulie remember did not impress enough in the preseason to make the team, while Gunnarsson is getting the 3rd most minutes of all D-men on the team right now (behind only the top pair of Phaneuf and Liles) and playing on both special teams.

That said I think Aulie has potential.  I like most of our depth guys but somebody will probably have to go...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sneakyray on October 11, 2011, 12:18:24 PM
for some reason I got a picture in my head of bozak making a tim's run with burke's order.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 25, 2011, 09:03:11 AM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bleeding Blue & White on October 25, 2011, 09:11:33 AM
The habs have nothing we wan't except for camalleri
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 25, 2011, 09:16:53 AM
The habs have nothing we wan't except for camalleri

Assuming we're looking strictly at forwards, I also quite like MaxPac and to a lesser extent, Moen.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 25, 2011, 09:38:00 AM
The habs have nothing we wan't except for camalleri

Assuming we're looking strictly at forwards, I also quite like MaxPac and to a lesser extent, Moen.

Pacioretty is awesome.  His release is Kessel-like.  He can really wire it.  He's also pyshical and doesn't mind going in the dirty spots.

I have a couple friends who are huge Hab fans and they tell me that other than PK and Price he is probably the 3rd most untouchable guy.

I think he would be great with Kulemin-Grabovski on the 2nd line.

Unless we are offering something like Schenn (or another overpayment) I don't see them moving him. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 25, 2011, 09:49:39 AM
The habs have nothing we wan't except for camalleri

Assuming we're looking strictly at forwards, I also quite like MaxPac and to a lesser extent, Moen.

Pacioretty is awesome.  His release is Kessel-like.  He can really wire it.  He's also pyshical and doesn't mind going in the dirty spots.

I have a couple friends who are huge Hab fans and they tell me that other than PK and Price he is probably the 3rd most untouchable guy.

I think he would be great with Kulemin-Grabovski on the 2nd line.

Unless we are offering something like Schenn (or another overpayment) I don't see them moving him.

Apparently he's hurt now too... Bad time for the Habs!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 25, 2011, 12:19:12 PM
Odds are they're talkign about someone like Franson, which means picks and/or prospects in return - and not likely of the high end variety either.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 25, 2011, 12:20:34 PM
Odds are they're talkign about someone like Franson, which means picks and/or prospects in return - and not likely of the high end variety either.

Perhaps... Though  wouldn't mind trying to trade a d-man + good forward for a better one.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 25, 2011, 12:21:24 PM
Odds are they're talkign about someone like Franson, which means picks and/or prospects in return - and not likely of the high end variety either.

That certainly creates a spot. The only problem I see with something like that is that when we call up a replacement, that player might get picked up on waivers. It's conceivable that they would bring up a waiver exempt player, but then you run the risk of not playing that player as much as they need to be played to improve.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 25, 2011, 12:29:07 PM
Odds are they're talkign about someone like Franson, which means picks and/or prospects in return - and not likely of the high end variety either.

Agreed, my gut says Burke isn't looking to settle for that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 25, 2011, 12:32:13 PM
That certainly creates a spot. The only problem I see with something like that is that when we call up a replacement, that player might get picked up on waivers. It's conceivable that they would bring up a waiver exempt player, but then you run the risk of not playing that player as much as they need to be played to improve.

But for a guy like Lashoff they'll have to expose him to waivers at some point if he's ever going to see the NHL again so they might as well do it now. I don't think there's a terrible risk he gets claimed.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 25, 2011, 12:38:08 PM
But for a guy like Lashoff they'll have to expose him to waivers at some point if he's ever going to see the NHL again so they might as well do it now. I don't think there's a terrible risk he gets claimed.

Maybe, but with a few teams looking right now after injuries, I think the risk goes up. To me, Burke has to do whats best for the Leafs, not Lashoff. I believe the risk was less when sending him down when every other team was making waiver moves, but now is a different story.

It could go the way you think, I'm just throwing it out there, that the Leafs may have to deal with bringing up a younger player that could see some time in the pressbox and not on the ice.

I agree with Tigger though, that Burke is probably looking for a bigger deal when he moves his depth.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 25, 2011, 12:42:00 PM
Maybe, but with a few teams looking right now after injuries, I think the risk goes up. To me, Burke has to do whats best for the Leafs, not Lashoff. I believe the risk was less when sending him down when every other team was making waiver moves, but now is a different story.

I'm not advocating they do anything for Lashoff's sake, I'm saying that regardless of when they call up Lashoff they'll need to expose him and the risk now isn't much greater than it would be at another time. If they can't bring up Lashoff because he'll get claimed then they're basically just stashing him in case of emergency in which case he's of such minor value to the team that losing him to waivers isn't a big deal anyway.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 25, 2011, 12:44:44 PM
I'm not advocating they do anything for Lashoff's sake, I'm saying that regardless of when they call up Lashoff they'll need to expose him and the risk now isn't much greater than it would be at another time. If they can't bring up Lashoff because he'll get claimed then they're basically just stashing him in case of emergency in which case he's of such minor value to the team that losing him to waivers isn't a big deal anyway.

Fair enough, but I want my cake and eat it too!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on October 25, 2011, 01:03:14 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 25, 2011, 01:12:08 PM
While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

The Leafs have too many blueliners, so I think one has to go and to me, Franson is the guy to go. It might have been different if Gardiner didn't emerge, but losing Komisarek right now would not be good. I know he's the whipping boy and at the start of the season I started to see that he may have to go, but he's playing the way we need him to right now IMO.

Franson also didn't help his cause by talking to the media and then not really backing it up with his play. Burke has shown that he doesn't really respect that stuff and although he hasn't addressed those comments, I'm willing to believe he didn't really like that behaviour from Franson.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on October 25, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
How about a guy like Lars Eller from the Habs?  Young, has some potential?  Provides some size up front.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 25, 2011, 01:16:50 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

I actually prefer Malone to say, Mac because I think he brings an element sorely lacking and have mentioned him a few times over the years but one has to ask themselves;

1. Would Tampa move him for white might be a lesser forward plus a defenseman and;

2. At 31, will Malone still be a top 6 forward and be as usefull say 2-3 years from now when the Leafs might be (we hope) contenders?

I guess the answer to question "2" is up to our pro scouts (well, Dudley anyway.) And with that said, I have a lot of respect for him (Dudley) in that regard.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 25, 2011, 01:17:05 PM
How about a guy like Lars Eller from the Habs?  Young, has some potential?  Provides some size up front.

Who does he step in and replace?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 25, 2011, 01:25:13 PM
2. At 31, will Malone still be a top 6 forward and be as usefull say 2-3 years from now when the Leafs might be (we hope) contenders?

Given his injury history, the soon to be 32 year old Malone might not be playing in 2 or 3 years, never mind being useful.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 25, 2011, 01:27:35 PM
2. At 31, will Malone still be a top 6 forward and be as usefull say 2-3 years from now when the Leafs might be (we hope) contenders?

Given his injury history, the soon to be 32 year old Malone might not be playing in 2 or 3 years, never mind being useful.

Yeah, I'm a sucker for a good power forward but get 'em while they're young!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on October 25, 2011, 01:30:54 PM
How about a guy like Lars Eller from the Habs?  Young, has some potential?  Provides some size up front.

Who does he step in and replace?

He's a 22 year old kid might fit in with the youth movement the Leafs have going.  Not sure where he'd slot in but it's more of a "nice to have" option if the likes of Lombardi, Connolly, Armstrong suffer further injuries.  Maybe play him together with a Frattin and Kadri?  I wouldn't mind a 3rd line like that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 25, 2011, 01:34:10 PM
He's a 22 year old kid might fit in with the youth movement the Leafs have going.  Not sure where he'd slot in but it's more of a "nice to have" option if the likes of Lombardi, Connolly, Armstrong suffer further injuries.  Maybe play him together with a Frattin and Kadri?  I wouldn't mind a 3rd line like that.

But even now, if they got him for nothing, who does he bounce? That's my issue there. I just don't know if I see where he gets playing time right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on October 25, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
He's a 22 year old kid might fit in with the youth movement the Leafs have going.  Not sure where he'd slot in but it's more of a "nice to have" option if the likes of Lombardi, Connolly, Armstrong suffer further injuries.  Maybe play him together with a Frattin and Kadri?  I wouldn't mind a 3rd line like that.

But even now, if they got him for nothing, who does he bounce? That's my issue there. I just don't know if I see where he gets playing time right now.

Oh I know, but given his age he might be a Marlies assignment for now (not sure if he'd have to clear waivers).  If the Leafs can pickup someone with upside at a young age for relatively cheap I say take a chance.  Habs are slowly starting to become a desperate team, and with media pressure you never know what kind of rush trade they may make.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 25, 2011, 01:38:15 PM
Malone, again? It wasn't likely before, less so now.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on October 25, 2011, 01:47:54 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

I think it would be a god-send if we could dump Komisarek on the Habs or bolts right now for nothing.  If Komi is replaced by his $1.5 million equivalent (eg: Aulie), it would free up $3 million the next two years that we can use to resign Grabbo and Kulemin in the offseason.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 25, 2011, 01:50:23 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

I think it would be a god-send if we could dump Komisarek on the Habs or bolts right now for nothing.  If Komi is replaced by his $1.5 million equivalent (eg: Aulie), it would free up $3 million the next two years that we can use to resign Grabbo and Kulemin in the offseason.

Aulie is actually 800K so even better.

Anyways, I don't think Komi is going anywhere quite yet.  Still too much term left on that contract but who knows.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on October 25, 2011, 02:56:28 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

I think it would be a god-send if we could dump Komisarek on the Habs or bolts right now for nothing.  If Komi is replaced by his $1.5 million equivalent (eg: Aulie), it would free up $3 million the next two years that we can use to resign Grabbo and Kulemin in the offseason.

Aulie is actually 800K so even better.

Anyways, I don't think Komi is going anywhere quite yet.  Still too much term left on that contract but who knows.

I think if Komi didn't have that disaster of a game the other night vs. Boston he would be tradeable right now.  He needs to put 4-5 more together to show he can get back to his former self and I think they can move him.  He has shown signs, but could still go either way.

His contract is high, but the league is now in the old NBA land of make believe when it comes to contracts... its not so much about trading for a player performance strictly tied to $$ value, its about managing your cap (floor or ceiling) space and moving bodies in and out.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 25, 2011, 03:05:19 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him.  I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

I think it would be a god-send if we could dump Komisarek on the Habs or bolts right now for nothing.  If Komi is replaced by his $1.5 million equivalent (eg: Aulie), it would free up $3 million the next two years that we can use to resign Grabbo and Kulemin in the offseason.

Aulie is actually 800K so even better.

Anyways, I don't think Komi is going anywhere quite yet.  Still too much term left on that contract but who knows.

I think if Komi didn't have that disaster of a game the other night vs. Boston he would be tradeable right now.  He needs to put 4-5 more together to show he can get back to his former self and I think they can move him.  He has shown signs, but could still go either way.

His contract is high, but the league is now in the old NBA land of make believe when it comes to contracts... its not so much about trading for a player performance strictly tied to $$ value, its about managing your cap (floor or ceiling) space and moving bodies in and out.

I knew sooner or later the allure of an 'expiring contract' was going to be worth something (ex.  David Booth to Vancouver for 2 expiring contracts).

Problem is... Komi isn't an expiring contract quite yet.  I think we are still stuck with him this season come hell or high water, but perhaps in the summer there could be someone willing to take him on (2 years left at $4.5M cap hit with actual money at $3.5M).  I fear we may be stuck with this for a while though  ???
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on October 25, 2011, 03:19:03 PM
I knew sooner or later the allure of an 'expiring contract' was going to be worth something (ex.  David Booth to Vancouver for 2 expiring contracts).

Problem is... Komi isn't an expiring contract quite yet.  I think we are still stuck with him this season come hell or high water, but perhaps in the summer there could be someone willing to take him on (2 years left at $4.5M cap hit with actual money at $3.5M).  I fear we may be stuck with this for a while though  ???

Not so much the expiring contract situation.... I would compare it more to the Lupul and Lombardi deals, only in reverse.  Neither were expiring contracts but teams take on money to get something good in return. 

Both Lupul and Lombardi had "issues" and most thought they would be worth nothing... most saw them as complete salary dumps but they were in need of some good luck in the health dept and also the change of scenery (mostly renewed faith in them by new team) didn't hurt either. 

Teams getting desperate for defensive help could be all over this, especially if they can send a not-so-great contract of their own back at the Leafs. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on October 25, 2011, 05:29:23 PM
I knew sooner or later the allure of an 'expiring contract' was going to be worth something (ex.  David Booth to Vancouver for 2 expiring contracts).

Problem is... Komi isn't an expiring contract quite yet.  I think we are still stuck with him this season come hell or high water, but perhaps in the summer there could be someone willing to take him on (2 years left at $4.5M cap hit with actual money at $3.5M).  I fear we may be stuck with this for a while though  ???

Not so much the expiring contract situation.... I would compare it more to the Lupul and Lombardi deals, only in reverse.  Neither were expiring contracts but teams take on money to get something good in return. 

Both Lupul and Lombardi had "issues" and most thought they would be worth nothing... most saw them as complete salary dumps but they were in need of some good luck in the health dept and also the change of scenery (mostly renewed faith in them by new team) didn't hurt either. 

Teams getting desperate for defensive help could be all over this, especially if they can send a not-so-great contract of their own back at the Leafs.

Or if we could do a Beauchemin deal again where we just pull the rug from under another GM?  Get another blue-chip like Gardiner?  Seems like Burke has been very good at these deals and I can't see why he couldn't do that with another team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on October 25, 2011, 05:32:18 PM
ESPN.COM:  The Bolts and Habs are believed in search of blueline help, with Custance citing “an NHL source” claiming the two teams had contacted the Toronto Maple Leafs about a deal involving one of the Leafs blueliners.
link: http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/10/25/nhl-rumors-tuesday-october-25-2011/

While I don't like anything that the Habs have to offer, there are some interesting pieces in the Bolts that may be of use.  Malone?

But I'm inclined to keep what we have now.  At the beginning of the season, I was willing to part with Gunnarsson, but he's played well and rarely makes mistakes and has played well with Phaneuf.  At this point, the only one I'd trade is Komisarek, but I still like his aggressiveness.  I haven't seen enough of Franson to give up on him. I still think he's going to be a very good NHL defenseman.  Unfortunately, if you give up Komisarek, you lose some toughness in the backend.

From Pierre Lebrun:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/11930/daily-debate-are-jacques-martins-days-numbered-in-montreal
LeBrun: I heard from sources on other teams Monday that Gauthier was phoning around looking for help on defense. The thing is, he's not alone. Tampa and the New York Rangers are among the other teams also looking for blue-line help. It just so happens that Cody Franson is available in Toronto, although I'm not sure whether any of those three teams has interest in him.

Lebrun clarifies here:
https://twitter.com/#%21/Real_ESPNLeBrun/statuses/128911034529480704

b1rky birky
@Real_ESPNLeBrun you wrote today that Cody Franson is available. Does that mean being shopped or the Leafs are simply listening?
2 hours ago
in reply to @b1rky ↑

@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Pierre LeBrun
@b1rky Leafs listening
2 hours ago via TweetDeck

Wouldn't surprise me though his market value is on the low side right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Mack674 on October 25, 2011, 06:48:24 PM
Depth forward or low pick at best... id rather keep him and see if he how he pans out a while longer yet.. but i dont get paid to make these decesions.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on October 25, 2011, 10:34:46 PM
How about a guy like Lars Eller from the Habs?  Young, has some potential?  Provides some size up front.

Who does he step in and replace?

That's the question I have as well with the names bantered about getting.  Who could Burke get that would be better than the current top 7 of Kessel, Connolly, Lupul, Kulemin, Grabovski, Armstrong and either MacArthur or Lombardi?

It would have to be a power forward like Malone, Clowe, Morrow.  The Leafs have speed and skill that only franchise forwards would be better than (and ofcourse I suspect that none of them are available).

I really want to see what Connolly can do for being a 1st line center stop gap.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Dappleganger on October 25, 2011, 11:02:59 PM
How about a guy like Lars Eller from the Habs?  Young, has some potential?  Provides some size up front.

Who does he step in and replace?

That's the question I have as well with the names bantered about getting.  Who could Burke get that would be better than the current top 7 of Kessel, Connolly, Lupul, Kulemin, Grabovski, Armstrong and either MacArthur or Lombardi?


I think Lecavalier will always be a target because I believe Tampa wouldn't mind out of that contract. Spezza is in a similar boat but less so. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 25, 2011, 11:19:48 PM
Just had read through a few pages at Spector's site, it's become the snopes of hockey urban rumors, nice to see.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on October 25, 2011, 11:51:51 PM
How about a guy like Lars Eller from the Habs?  Young, has some potential?  Provides some size up front.

Who does he step in and replace?

That's the question I have as well with the names bantered about getting.  Who could Burke get that would be better than the current top 7 of Kessel, Connolly, Lupul, Kulemin, Grabovski, Armstrong and either MacArthur or Lombardi?


I think Lecavalier will always be a target because I believe Tampa wouldn't mind out of that contract. Spezza is in a similar boat but less so.

Yes, Tampa would like out of Lecavalier's contract.  The typical question is:  who would like into it?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on October 26, 2011, 08:45:58 AM
Everyone and their brother now has "Leafs and Habs trade rumors" on the internet today.  Following the Eklund mold of needing more hits during slower times.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 08:48:03 AM
I would think Franson would be highly sought after.  He's only 23 years old, incredibly cheap, 6'5, 215lbs, a right handed shot who plays the right side, can really bomb it (so a PP presence) and got 30 points last year.  I would think every team in the NHL would be interested in a guy like that.

Question is... what would they be willing to give up to acquire it? 

Any chance you think we could add something (i.e. D'Amigo?  Ross?  Olden?) and try and get Turris?  Obviously if his contract demands are still wacky I wouldn't go there, but if he'd sign reasonably with us (he might just want out of PHX) then I think it's worth a gamble... especially for a guy we aren't playing. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 08:56:58 AM
I would think Franson would be highly sought after.  He's only 23 years old, incredibly cheap, 6'5, 215lbs, a right handed shot who plays the right side, can really bomb it (so a PP presence) and got 30 points last year.  I would think every team in the NHL would be interested in a guy like that.

Question is... what would they be willing to give up to acquire it? 

Any chance you think we could add something (i.e. D'Amigo?  Ross?  Olden?) and try and get Turris?  Obviously if his contract demands are still wacky I wouldn't go there, but if he'd sign reasonably with us (he might just want out of PHX) then I think it's worth a gamble... especially for a guy we aren't playing.

Just curious... Why do you mention Turris and where do you see him fitting on this team? Bozak + Franson maybe might clean thing up a bit for Turris but I'm not sold on the idea.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 09:04:45 AM
I would think Franson would be highly sought after.  He's only 23 years old, incredibly cheap, 6'5, 215lbs, a right handed shot who plays the right side, can really bomb it (so a PP presence) and got 30 points last year.  I would think every team in the NHL would be interested in a guy like that.

Question is... what would they be willing to give up to acquire it? 

Any chance you think we could add something (i.e. D'Amigo?  Ross?  Olden?) and try and get Turris?  Obviously if his contract demands are still wacky I wouldn't go there, but if he'd sign reasonably with us (he might just want out of PHX) then I think it's worth a gamble... especially for a guy we aren't playing.

Just curious... Why do you mention Turris and where do you see him fitting on this team? Bozak + Franson maybe might clean thing up a bit for Turris but I'm not sold on the idea.

Just taking a gamble on him.  He could develop into a pretty darn good 2-way center.  Remember, he's only 21-22 years old.  Grabovski didn't develop into an everyday player until 24.

I think if we're only dealing a guy who isn't playing for us and a B level type prospect it's worth the risk.  Could pay off huge in the long run.  If not, well, not like Turris will bomb completely and what we give up probably won't come back to bite us in the @ss too much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 09:11:51 AM

Just taking a gamble on him.  He could develop into a pretty darn good 2-way center.  Remember, he's only 21-22 years old.  Grabovski didn't develop into an everyday player until 24.

I think if we're only dealing a guy who isn't playing for us and a B level type prospect it's worth the risk.  Could pay off huge in the long run.  If not, well, not like Turris will bomb completely and what we give up probably won't come back to bite us in the @ss too much.

I don't necessarily disagree but I'd think you'ld have to make Bozak part of that deal, no? We're already pretty crowded down the middle.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 09:17:07 AM

Just taking a gamble on him.  He could develop into a pretty darn good 2-way center.  Remember, he's only 21-22 years old.  Grabovski didn't develop into an everyday player until 24.

I think if we're only dealing a guy who isn't playing for us and a B level type prospect it's worth the risk.  Could pay off huge in the long run.  If not, well, not like Turris will bomb completely and what we give up probably won't come back to bite us in the @ss too much.

I don't necessarily disagree but I'd think you'ld have to make Bozak part of that deal, no? We're already pretty crowded down the middle.

Probably.  I don't know, it's just a thought though. 

I'd probably still try and save our assets for that true #1 center (or impact player at least) but we could be waiting a long, long time.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 09:20:56 AM

Just taking a gamble on him.  He could develop into a pretty darn good 2-way center.  Remember, he's only 21-22 years old.  Grabovski didn't develop into an everyday player until 24.

I think if we're only dealing a guy who isn't playing for us and a B level type prospect it's worth the risk.  Could pay off huge in the long run.  If not, well, not like Turris will bomb completely and what we give up probably won't come back to bite us in the @ss too much.

I don't necessarily disagree but I'd think you'ld have to make Bozak part of that deal, no? We're already pretty crowded down the middle.

Probably.  I don't know, it's just a thought though. 

I'd probably still try and save our assets for that true #1 center (or impact player at least) but we could be waiting a long, long time.

Yeah, I'd hate to burn assets now when bigger fish might be available later on.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 09:40:52 AM
I would think Franson would be highly sought after.  He's only 23 years old, incredibly cheap, 6'5, 215lbs, a right handed shot who plays the right side, can really bomb it (so a PP presence) and got 30 points last year.  I would think every team in the NHL would be interested in a guy like that.

I personally doubt that anyone who isn't playing would be a highly sought commodity. I think getting into the line-up and playing well while there, at the very least being the PP presence you're talking about, is a bare minimum for teams to get excited about acquiring someon.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 10:06:06 AM
I would think Franson would be highly sought after.  He's only 23 years old, incredibly cheap, 6'5, 215lbs, a right handed shot who plays the right side, can really bomb it (so a PP presence) and got 30 points last year.  I would think every team in the NHL would be interested in a guy like that.

I personally doubt that anyone who isn't playing would be a highly sought commodity. I think getting into the line-up and playing well while there, at the very least being the PP presence you're talking about, is a bare minimum for teams to get excited about acquiring someon.

Can the very same not be said for Turris?  Especially given the fact he hasn't impressed while he's played anyways.

I'm just throwing something out there.  And I personally don't think Franson having not played much in the first 3 weeks of the season really kills his value (I don't think it's helped obviously).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 10:24:25 AM
Can the very same not be said for Turris?  Especially given the fact he hasn't impressed while he's played anyways.

Well, something similar can be said for Turris anyway. Not exactly the same, as Franson can't get in the line-up and Turris is voluntarily staying away, but Turris has probably hurt his value the last few weeks.

I'm just throwing something out there.  And I personally don't think Franson having not played much in the first 3 weeks of the season really kills his value (I don't think it's helped obviously).

Kills? No. Reduces significantly? I think so. Him having gone from a guy who we were talking about how the Leafs "stole" him from Nashville to a guy most of us would shrug our shoulders about dealing is pretty revealing.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on October 26, 2011, 11:28:48 AM
Kills? No. Reduces significantly? I think so. Him having gone from a guy who we were talking about how the Leafs "stole" him from Nashville to a guy most of us would shrug our shoulders about dealing is pretty revealing.

Among the GMs, I don't think his value was nearly as high as what the media tried to spin. But he's fallen some in value since July.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 26, 2011, 11:34:14 AM
You could also add the Turris was barely able to stay in the Coyotes line-up last season.  And the Coyotes aren't ripe with top line talent.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 11:37:07 AM
You could also add the Turris was barely able to stay in the Coyotes line-up last season.  And the Coyotes aren't ripe with top line talent.

I'm not saying anything about Turris' value really or even whether or not a Turris-Franson deal would fly. I don't think Turris is a super-hot commodity right now either. I'm just talking about Franson for the most part.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 26, 2011, 11:39:38 AM
I agree with you on both Nik.  Did I really just write that!!!  It just might be a gamble that could work for both teams??  Although Turris does not excite me he is a young player with planty of talent who could turn into something.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 26, 2011, 12:15:22 PM
A deal based around Franson and Turris is intriguing, not sure what Phoenix would make of it though.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: iwas11in67 on October 26, 2011, 12:28:16 PM
How about a possible 3 way between Toronto-Montreal and Phoenix
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 26, 2011, 12:38:35 PM
How about a possible 3 way between Toronto-Montreal and Phoenix

Wouldn't that be a ménage à trois?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: You're right on October 26, 2011, 01:02:08 PM
How about a possible 3 way between Toronto-Montreal and Phoenix

Wouldn't that be a ménage à trois?
An English man, a French man, and a coyote? Whatever turns your crank man... ;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 26, 2011, 01:10:00 PM
How about a possible 3 way between Toronto-Montreal and Phoenix

Wouldn't that be a ménage à trois?
An English man, a French man, and a coyote? Whatever turns your crank man... ;D

;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Damian on October 26, 2011, 01:17:16 PM
A deal based around Franson and Turris is intriguing, not sure what Phoenix would make of it though.

Turris is seeking $4M+ if memory serves... thats already a dealbreaker I would suspect
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 01:36:33 PM
A deal based around Franson and Turris is intriguing, not sure what Phoenix would make of it though.

Turris is seeking $4M+ if memory serves... thats already a dealbreaker I would suspect

He wants 4M+ from Phoenix (he wants out of there.) I'm guessing he'll take less elsewhere.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 26, 2011, 01:49:12 PM
He wants 4M+ from Phoenix (he wants out of there.) I'm guessing he'll take less elsewhere.

I think he would take considerably less if he was traded.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 01:50:54 PM
He wants 4M+ from Phoenix (he wants out of there.) I'm guessing he'll take less elsewhere.

I think he would take considerably less if he was traded.

That's pretty speculative though, right?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 01:54:51 PM
He wants 4M+ from Phoenix (he wants out of there.) I'm guessing he'll take less elsewhere.

I think he would take considerably less if he was traded.

That's pretty speculative though, right?

I believe it was the general feeling on the Hotstove (the first Sat. of the season.) Or some other media guys... I can't remember but by in large, speculative. Yes.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 26, 2011, 02:25:47 PM
That's pretty speculative though, right?

It is, but, he is still an RFA, so, any team looking to trade for him can definitely mitigate the level of risking by negotiating the terms of a contract before making the trade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 02:28:24 PM
That's pretty speculative though, right?

It is, but, he is still an RFA, so, any team looking to trade for him can definitely mitigate the level of risking by negotiating the terms of a contract before making the trade.

Sure. I was just wondering if there was a better sense out there about whether or not Turris was a nut or just the anti-Doan.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 26, 2011, 02:31:10 PM
That's pretty speculative though, right?

It is, but, he is still an RFA, so, any team looking to trade for him can definitely mitigate the level of risking by negotiating the terms of a contract before making the trade.

Right. Of course it's speculative, we aren't part of any negotiations and we're certainly not in the know about what is going on with that situation. But if you are of the belief that Turris just wants out of Phoenix (which I am and have been for a while) then you would have to think that once he got this trade, he would be able to start fresh and earn his pay with his new club.

Being RFA leaves little negotiating power to hold a club hostage for more money, unless of course he has the Star power to back it up, which Turris does not. I just can't see Turris doing the same thing to a new club after he gets what he wants and all things point to that being simply to get out of Phoenix at this point.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 02:36:26 PM
Being RFA leaves little negotiating power to hold a club hostage for more money, unless of course he has the Star power to back it up, which Turris does not. I just can't see Turris doing the same thing to a new club after he gets what he wants and all things point to that being simply to get out of Phoenix at this point.

I think that's where you lose me. I agree that it's a possibility that Turris wants out of Phoenix but I don't know that anything really points to it. Making outlandish salary demands could just be indicative of him having a false sense of his own worth. If he desperately wanted out of there he could say that.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 02:40:02 PM
How about St.Louis?  Reading their message boards a lot of fans seem to be preparing for them to deal a forward or two for a defenceman.  A name that a lot of them appear to be discussing is TJ Oshie.

I would guess Burke would be interested but the problem is they would probably want Schenn in return.  He's a fan favourite there.

Either way, looks like a lot of Blues fans are bracing for a possible Oshie trade this year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 02:43:33 PM
How about St.Louis?  Reading their message boards a lot of fans seem to be preparing for them to deal a forward or two for a defenceman.  A name that a lot of them appear to be discussing is TJ Oshie.

I would guess Burke would be interested there but the problem is they would probably want Schenn in return.  He's a fan favourite there.

Either way, looks like a lot of Blues fans are bracing for a possible Oshie trade this year.

I like Oshie (though he burned me in my fantasy league last year) but yeah, he won't come cheap... I mentioned Perron some time ago who might come cheaper with the concussion concern and we know Burke dosn't ming gambling....
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 02:47:59 PM
How about St.Louis?  Reading their message boards a lot of fans seem to be preparing for them to deal a forward or two for a defenceman.  A name that a lot of them appear to be discussing is TJ Oshie.

I would guess Burke would be interested there but the problem is they would probably want Schenn in return.  He's a fan favourite there.

Either way, looks like a lot of Blues fans are bracing for a possible Oshie trade this year.

I like Oshie (though he burned me in my fantasy league last year) but yeah, he won't come cheap... I mentioned Perron some time ago who might come cheaper with the concussion concern and we know Burke dosn't ming gambling....

Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 02:56:37 PM
How about St.Louis?  Reading their message boards a lot of fans seem to be preparing for them to deal a forward or two for a defenceman.  A name that a lot of them appear to be discussing is TJ Oshie.

I would guess Burke would be interested there but the problem is they would probably want Schenn in return.  He's a fan favourite there.

Either way, looks like a lot of Blues fans are bracing for a possible Oshie trade this year.

I like Oshie (though he burned me in my fantasy league last year) but yeah, he won't come cheap... I mentioned Perron some time ago who might come cheaper with the concussion concern and we know Burke dosn't ming gambling....

Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Oshie was just recently benched. I suppose Schenn isn't fairing much better here as his ice time is getting cut but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a straight swap of these two guys.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 02:57:23 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 02:59:25 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?

LW... At lest he started the year there with Berglund and Stewart.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 03:04:47 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?

LW... At lest he started the year there with Berglund and Stewart.

Well, he's versatile.  He can play center or wing and flip flops quite a bit if I recall correctly.

I think he would almost certainly be an upgrade over Bozak and/or Lombardi.  Possibly Connolly depending on injuries, chemsitry and such but I see what Nik is saying. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 03:10:21 PM
LW... At lest he started the year there with Berglund and Stewart.

He's listed as a C with the Blues but that doesn't mean much.

Anyways, the question is no less valid as a LW. Does he come in and supplant Lupul? Or is he a 3rd liner as the team exists?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on October 26, 2011, 03:16:18 PM
LW... At lest he started the year there with Berglund and Stewart.

He's listed as a C with the Blues but that doesn't mean much.

Anyways, the question is no less valid as a LW. Does he come in and supplant Lupul? Or is he a 3rd liner as the team exists?

I like Oshie better than Mac but the way Lupul is going with Kessel right now, I'm not sure I want to screw with that. Oshie might wind up the better of the three LWers but today, yeah, it doesn't help us all that much unless you were able to in turn, spin Mac off for something.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 26, 2011, 03:27:55 PM
I think that's where you lose me. I agree that it's a possibility that Turris wants out of Phoenix but I don't know that anything really points to it. Making outlandish salary demands could just be indicative of him having a false sense of his own worth. If he desperately wanted out of there he could say that.

Well, talk to Elliotte Friedman, he's the one that says that after he talked to people around the league, he believes that...

Coyotes Don Maloney re-iterated that he won’t trade Kyle Turris, and that if he wants to play this year, he be playing in Phoenix. After Friedman talked to a few people, it sounds like “Turris wants to be traded.”  Another GM says he’d sign a reasonable contract with another team. The Coyotes would match any reasonable contracts. (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/elliottefriedman/2011/10/friedmanoct11.html)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
Well, talk to Elliotte Friedman, he's the one that says that after he talked to people around the league, he believes that...

Like I said, I saw the Hotstove. I'd still hesitate to say that indicates that "all things" point to Turris wanting out.

Although, if we're looking to take one thing away from that article I'd say it's much stronger on saying that Maloney won't trade Turris which renders it moot anyway.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on October 26, 2011, 03:39:10 PM
Although, if we're looking to take one thing away from that article I'd say it's much stronger on saying that Maloney won't trade Turris which renders it moot anyway.

It doesn't render anything moot, it simply says that Maloney doesn't want to be strong armed. But you keep believing that Turris is just that greedy and delusional and that he doesn't have realistic advice from his agent. I'm fine with that, but I'll keep believing that Kyle Turris wants out of Phoenix.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 03:44:30 PM
And Mike Brown was adament he wasn't going to trade Carson Palmer.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: 13 on October 26, 2011, 03:49:42 PM
 As long as Wilson seems to not trust Kadri at all does he get thrown into a package with say a Franson and maybe a prospect/draft pick/Bozak for a real first line C?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 03:51:49 PM
As long as Wilson seems to not trust Kadri at all does he get thrown into a package with say a Franson and maybe a prospect/draft pick/Bozak for a real first line C?

But CAN a package of Kadri + Franson + prospect/pick get a first line C?

I'm talking in the E.Staal/Getzlaf/Spezza/Richards/Kopitar mold.

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 03:53:52 PM
It doesn't render anything moot, it simply says that Maloney doesn't want to be strong armed.

I'd say Maloney not trading Turris makes the issue of trading for Turris moot but, well, differences abound.

But you keep believing that Turris is just that greedy and delusional and that he doesn't have realistic advice from his agent. I'm fine with that, but I'll keep believing that Kyle Turris wants out of Phoenix.

I don't know why you feel compelled to make everything so black and white. I said that both possibilities exist and that we don't know enough about what Turris wants. Heck, it doesn't even have to be one or the other. He could want too much money and he could want out. Wanting out could be a consequence of having his salary demands refused.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 26, 2011, 03:58:08 PM
Kyle Turris and Kurt Overhardt are on glue if they think he can get 4m a year with his accomplishments so far.

I don't think they're glueheads either.

That doesn't mean much in the way of imposing an agenda on their behavior but it is a little telling to me.

I don't put a lot of stock in the gm's reaction either, if a good deal came along I'm fairly sure he'd move him but until then probably feels he needs to be strong on the point to avoid engendering a different impression/perception of him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on October 26, 2011, 04:01:22 PM
It doesn't render anything moot, it simply says that Maloney doesn't want to be strong armed.

I'd say Maloney not trading Turris makes the issue of trading for Turris moot but, well, differences abound.

Again, Cincy was pretty adament they weren't going to trade Carson Palmer.  That didn't even last a year.

If a deal comes around that makes sense, Maloney will make it.  He's not going to publicly come out and say, "fine, he doesn't want to play here, I'm listening."  That doesn't put him in a very good position now does it?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 04:03:56 PM
Kyle Turris and Kurt Overhardt are on glue if they think he can get 4m a year with his accomplishments so far.

I don't think they're glueheads either.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that 4 million per figure is another thing coming from unnamed third party sources.

Either way though, if the idea is that Turris wants out of Phoenix under any circumstances in what way is that aided by naming an outrageously high figure vs. just saying that?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 04:05:31 PM
Again, Cincy was pretty adament they weren't going to trade Carson Palmer.  That didn't even last a year.

You're kind of misreading what I'm saying here. I'm saying the Friedman article isn't terrible definite on Turris and far more definite on Maloney.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: 13 on October 26, 2011, 04:09:33 PM
As long as Wilson seems to not trust Kadri at all does he get thrown into a package with say a Franson and maybe a prospect/draft pick/Bozak for a real first line C?

But CAN a package of Kadri + Franson + prospect/pick get a first line C?

I'm talking in the E.Staal/Getzlaf/Spezza/Richards/Kopitar mold.

I don't think so.

That's what I'm wondering. Franson is supposed to have all this upside, Kadri has played maybe 30 NHL games in 4 years also supposedly with wads of upside, Bozak I think is horribly underated here because he was forced into a #1 C when he clearly shouldn't have been in that situation. I like and believe in all three but Wilson seems to have no time for Franson or Kadri. I believe with just those 2 alone we should be able to upgrade over a Lombardi or Connolly. Nothing against either but, they ain't #1's in my opinion and both are injury prone. Hell, throw one of 'em in as well.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 26, 2011, 04:12:06 PM
Kyle Turris and Kurt Overhardt are on glue if they think he can get 4m a year with his accomplishments so far.

I don't think they're glueheads either.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that 4 million per figure is another thing coming from unnamed third party sources.

Either way though, if the idea is that Turris wants out of Phoenix under any circumstances in what way is that aided by naming an outrageously high figure vs. just saying that?

Fair enough, it's a speculative number as well. For me the difference is again one of perception. Players who outright call for a trade through the media go down in the character department, a 'soft' stat if you will.

It may not be an outright aid but it may foster some respect down the road? I'm projecting here, certainly.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 04:17:01 PM
Fair enough, it's a speculative number as well. For me the difference is again one of perception. Players who outright call for a trade through the media go down in the character department, a 'soft' stat if you will.

I think that's true in some cases but a lot less so in the case of a RFA. All Turris would be saying is that he has no interest of signing with Phoenix. That's not exactly the same as demanding a trade.

Although even then, he wouldn't have to do it "through the media". He'd just have to make it clear to Maloney that he wouldn't be re-signing.

edit: also, I mean, like you say it's not like his reported salary demands don't have him taking a hit in the character department anyway.

It may not be an outright aid but it may foster some respect down the road? I'm projecting here, certainly.

I'm just saying that if I'm Maloney and I hear that Turris wants a number I'm not prepared to give him then it's more or less a negotiation no different from any other contract negotiation where I hope I can get him down to an acceptable range. Being told in no uncertain terms that he wanted out would probably get me a little more motivated to look into a trade before it got into the media and people knew I was behind the 8 ball.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 26, 2011, 04:33:09 PM
Fair enough, it's a speculative number as well. For me the difference is again one of perception. Players who outright call for a trade through the media go down in the character department, a 'soft' stat if you will.

I think that's true in some cases but a lot less so in the case of a RFA. All Turris would be saying is that he has no interest of signing with Phoenix. That's not exactly the same as demanding a trade.

No but it seems on the fence towards it, Maloney's reaction isn't definitive but I think alludes to something along those lines.

Quote
Although even then, he wouldn't have to do it "through the media". He'd just have to make it clear to Maloney that he wouldn't be re-signing.

That's also true and as a result it could be what's happening here to drive some speculation.

It may not be an outright aid but it may foster some respect down the road? I'm projecting here, certainly.

I'm just saying that if I'm Maloney and I hear that Turris wants a number I'm not prepared to give him then it's more or less a negotiation no different from any other contract negotiation where I hope I can get him down to an acceptable range. Being told in no uncertain terms that he wanted out would probably get me a little more motivated to look into a trade before it got into the media and people knew I was behind the 8 ball.
Could be something as simple as a slightly abnormal negotiation situation, though given Turris' leverage it seems like more of a hardline to me.

Maloney might have misread the situation, hard to say but Turris is a top 3 pick, seems like he has potential, I'm sure the last thing Don wanted to do was get fleeced in an early season trade because his hand was forced.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 04:38:24 PM
Maloney might have misread the situation, hard to say but Turris is a top 3 pick, seems like he has potential, I'm sure the last thing Don wanted to do was get fleeced in an early season trade because his hand was forced.

I'm sure but, realistically, isn't the best time to trade Turris during the summer before any rumours about Turris wanting out gets to the media? Regardless of why Turris isn't happy in Phoenix I think his value is at it's highest before he's missed camp and there are folks like us trying to figure out why he may want a change.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 26, 2011, 04:45:37 PM
Maloney might have misread the situation, hard to say but Turris is a top 3 pick, seems like he has potential, I'm sure the last thing Don wanted to do was get fleeced in an early season trade because his hand was forced.

I'm sure but, realistically, isn't the best time to trade Turris during the summer before any rumours about Turris wanting out gets to the media? Regardless of why Turris isn't happy in Phoenix I think his value is at it's highest before he's missed camp and there are folks like us trying to figure out why he may want a change.

The summer/draft would have been the best time to do it if it had to happen I agree, maybe things came to a head after the best before date? Maloney seems like a smart gm, it's hard to say, maybe nothing is really wrong and Turris will sign tomorrow.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 26, 2011, 04:54:55 PM
The summer/draft would have been the best time to do it if it had to happen I agree, maybe things came to a head after the best before date? Maloney seems like a smart gm, it's hard to say, maybe nothing is really wrong and Turris will sign tomorrow.

I agree and that was really my point all along. It's really hard to take a look at this situation and come to one conclusion or the other.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 26, 2011, 05:14:25 PM
Whatever Maloney is going to do, he only has a little more than a month to decide. If Turris isn't signed by December 1st, he loses almost all his value until the trade deadline, because he won't be eligible to play until next season. He might regain some value to a bottom feeder looking to sell off players for picks and prospects at the deadline, but, unless the Yotes are in the playoff hunt at that point . . .
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 26, 2011, 08:11:24 PM
Whatever Maloney is going to do, he only has a little more than a month to decide. If Turris isn't signed by December 1st, he loses almost all his value until the trade deadline, because he won't be eligible to play until next season. He might regain some value to a bottom feeder looking to sell off players for picks and prospects at the deadline, but, unless the Yotes are in the playoff hunt at that point . . .

That's a good point, Maloney is under some pressure there and if Turris was only so so on playing in Phoenix, why go through this? Sign something reasonable ( whatever that is ) and play. The longer it drags on the more I think there's some kind of hardline unless they're trying to play a game of chicken with Maloney over the date you noted and are hoping to max things out. It still seems weird to me to accept losing money in the hopes of making more when you have no leverage. I don't know much past Turris isn't playing, Maloney has said he won't trade him and Dec. 1 so I'm speculating/guessing in between.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 27, 2011, 12:19:47 PM
Turris "clears" the air:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/7155852/kyle-turris-asks-phoenix-coyotes-trade

Quote
The standoff between Kyle Turris and the Phoenix Coyotes was taken up a notch Thursday.

Kurt Overhardt, the agent for the unsigned center, confirmed that Turris has asked the Coyotes for a trade.

"This has never been about money, we've been upfront with the club from Day 1," Overhardt told ESPN.com Thursday. "We've respectfully requested that the player had the opportunity to move forward in his career by having a fresh start."
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 27, 2011, 12:30:57 PM

Well, that makes sense at least. Still, some pretty harsh words there from Maloney.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 27, 2011, 02:30:39 PM

Well, that makes sense at least. Still, some pretty harsh words there from Maloney.

Harsh in the sense that you think he is doing his team a disservice, or harsh in the sense that "Dude ain't goin' ta back down!!!"?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 27, 2011, 03:28:37 PM
I am surprised more teams don't use the RFA better.  Why should a team give in to a player when at that stage of the career the team holds all the leverage?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 27, 2011, 03:31:52 PM
I am surprised more teams don't use the RFA better.  Why should a team give in to a player when at that stage of the career the team holds all the leverage?

I think it depends on the situation.  At some point that RFA is going to be a UFA.  If you want to keep them around, you probably want to keep things civil. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 27, 2011, 03:32:04 PM
I am surprised more teams don't use the RFA better.  Why should a team give in to a player when at that stage of the career the team holds all the leverage?

I think this is one of those situations where a team really does have all of the leverage. In a situation like the one with Doughty and the Kings this summer Doughty did have a good dose of leverage because he was so important to their success on the ice. Turris doesn't have that so Maloney can afford to play hardball.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 27, 2011, 03:37:17 PM
Yeah the Doughty was a unique one as he was so imp to team.  If you think of teams like leafs and Schenn is another example of team giving in to player.  Luke has not done enough in his time in league to deserve salary he has commanded.  There are many examples of big contracts given to RFA's which really don't make any sense if you want to control salary.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 27, 2011, 03:43:44 PM
Yeah the Doughty was a unique one as he was so imp to team.  If you think of teams like leafs and Schenn is another example of team giving in to player.  Luke has not done enough in his time in league to deserve salary he has commanded.  There are many examples of big contracts given to RFA's which really don't make any sense if you want to control salary.

I think there's probably less than you think. I think most big deals given to RFA's are given to young players who've proven themselves and then you have a situation where the team is trying to buy out UFA years.

Schenn was kind of a good example of that. He got some UFA years bought and had some leverage in terms of his play.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Michael on October 27, 2011, 04:21:18 PM
Hypothetically, if he was to sit out all year, does that do anything to his eventual UFA status? Does it move it up a year?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 27, 2011, 04:29:17 PM
That's the thing Nik I understand the need to buy UFA years from an elite player but buying them from a guy like Schenn makes no sense to me.  Almost every team has a Schenn in their organization and every draft has several of him.  This is the level of player where team should hold all the power yet some teams continue to give in and reward when they don't need to.  Bogosian is another good example from this summer, he really had no leverage yet got a decent contract.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 27, 2011, 04:34:24 PM
And back to Turris, he has already got one contract based on potential, it's about time he get around to earning his next one because nothing he has done yet would lead to a multi-million dollar deal.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 27, 2011, 04:35:53 PM
That's the thing Nik I understand the need to buy UFA years from an elite player but buying them from a guy like Schenn makes no sense to me.  Almost every team has a Schenn in their organization and every draft has several of him.  This is the level of player where team should hold all the power yet some teams continue to give in and reward when they don't need to. 

We'll just have to disagree about Schenn I guess. Both in terms of how he's played and his relative quality as an asset. He's 21, a top 5 pick and has had some success. I don't think every team has one of him or even several like you claim.

Bogosian is another good example from this summer, he really had no leverage yet got a decent contract.

Bogosian got two years at 2.5 per. That's hardly a case of bowing to unreasonable demands.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 27, 2011, 04:37:44 PM
And back to Turris, he has already got one contract based on potential, it's about time he get around to earning his next one because nothing he has done yet would lead to a multi-million dollar deal.

I'm confused. Didn't his entry level deal just expire?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on October 27, 2011, 04:46:03 PM
Turris's entry level deal is one he got for potential.  His second deal is one he should earn and he has not done that.  If he wasn't young and drafted high there would be zero offers for him.  Schenn is a 21 year old 2nd pairing d-man.  He has not proven to be a great 2nd pairing defenceman.  I believe every team will have this type of player and yes every draft there will be several picked.  While Luke was picked 5th in 08 it could be argued that he is actually the 7th or 8th best d-man drafted that year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 27, 2011, 04:53:05 PM
Turris's entry level deal is one he got for potential.  His second deal is one he should earn and he has not done that.  If he wasn't young and drafted high there would be zero offers for him.

I don't know if that's true. He scored well enough in the AHL and his numbers last year aren't spectacular but they're not terrible for a player of his age. People pay for potential.

  Schenn is a 21 year old 2nd pairing d-man.  He has not proven to be a great 2nd pairing defenceman.  I believe every team will have this type of player and yes every draft there will be several picked.  While Luke was picked 5th in 08 it could be argued that he is actually the 7th or 8th best d-man drafted that year.

Again, we just won't see eye to eye on Schenn. Not everyone will have a defenseman of his age and his potential and who's done things like lead the league in hits or had the kind of solid rookie season he did.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on October 27, 2011, 04:57:27 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?

The Leafs have a few good players but picking up more good players now I think is pointless.

We need a top forward or nothing.

As long as Wilson seems to not trust Kadri at all does he get thrown into a package with say a Franson and maybe a prospect/draft pick/Bozak for a real first line C?

But CAN a package of Kadri + Franson + prospect/pick get a first line C?

I'm talking in the E.Staal/Getzlaf/Spezza/Richards/Kopitar mold.

I don't think so.

That's what I'm wondering. Franson is supposed to have all this upside, Kadri has played maybe 30 NHL games in 4 years also supposedly with wads of upside, Bozak I think is horribly underated here because he was forced into a #1 C when he clearly shouldn't have been in that situation. I like and believe in all three but Wilson seems to have no time for Franson or Kadri. I believe with just those 2 alone we should be able to upgrade over a Lombardi or Connolly. Nothing against either but, they ain't #1's in my opinion and both are injury prone. Hell, throw one of 'em in as well.

For the Leafs to stay under the CAP next year I think any trade at this point that sees a large contract coming to the Leafs would have to include 3 players from the list:
Connolly
Lupul
Lombardi
MacArthur
Grabovski (assuming he gets Connolly type money next year)
Kulemin (assuming he gets Lupul type money next year)
Komisarek
Schenn
Liles (unless the Leafs aren't looking to re-sign him or someone comparable)

....So I guess anyone over $3 MIL not named Kessel.

The 3 I would prefer to see gone are:

Connolly off the top line replaced with an elite center

MacArthur replaced by Frattin or Lombardi

Komisarek replaced by Franson as our 6th dman.

The Leafs would then have the room to trade for a top center AND re-sign Grabovski and Kulemin.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Jalili on October 27, 2011, 05:10:18 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?

The Leafs have a few good players but picking up more good players now I think is pointless.

We need a top forward or nothing.

People have been saying this for over a year but I disagree. If the opportunity comes along to acquire a player who fills a void we're missing, I'm not going to be against trading for him just because he's not a top player.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on October 27, 2011, 05:16:43 PM
Burke to be on Fan590 in a few minutes (5:20pm)
http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 27, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
Hypothetically, if he was to sit out all year, does that do anything to his eventual UFA status? Does it move it up a year?

Well, he'll be a year closer to turning 27, but, otherwise, no. In fact, it means he won't hit the required 7 seasons until the end of the same season that he would have qualified to be a UFA based on age.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bender on October 27, 2011, 05:58:47 PM
Burke to be on Fan590 in a few minutes (5:20pm)
http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air

What did he say?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on October 27, 2011, 06:01:22 PM
Burke to be on Fan590 in a few minutes (5:20pm)
http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air

What did he say?

http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20111027_172253_5216

Saves me typing  :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on October 27, 2011, 06:12:24 PM
Burke to be on Fan590 in a few minutes (5:20pm)
http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air

What did he say?

Nothing particularly interesting.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on October 27, 2011, 06:12:48 PM
Related to this thread, Burke did say that the phone has been ringing but there's been nothing offered that he has to think about.

He acknowledged with Aulie in the AHL that they have an excess of NHL dmen but said that the minute they move one, another guy would get injured. So they need an offer to blow them away before they'd move one of them.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on October 27, 2011, 07:14:56 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?

The Leafs have a few good players but picking up more good players now I think is pointless.

We need a top forward or nothing.

People have been saying this for over a year but I disagree. If the opportunity comes along to acquire a player who fills a void we're missing, I'm not going to be against trading for him just because he's not a top player.

I think it's more along the lines of 'more of the same won't change a lot'. What voids are you thinking of that could be filled?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Jalili on October 27, 2011, 07:22:05 PM
Oshie has his own injury concerns.  I don't know how many roster spots you want to gamble on guys who have a history of injuries (we have Connolly and Lombardi already).

Is Oshie a guy who even represents a specific upgrade? Or does he come in and serve as the team's 4th #2 centre?

The Leafs have a few good players but picking up more good players now I think is pointless.

We need a top forward or nothing.

People have been saying this for over a year but I disagree. If the opportunity comes along to acquire a player who fills a void we're missing, I'm not going to be against trading for him just because he's not a top player.

I think it's more along the lines of 'more of the same won't change a lot'. What voids are you thinking of that could be filled?

Size up front, particularly someone that uses it a lot.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on October 28, 2011, 04:21:40 PM
Size up front, particularly someone that uses it a lot.

Antro?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bender on October 28, 2011, 04:37:45 PM
Size up front, particularly someone that uses it a lot.

Antro?

Wellwood?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zid on October 28, 2011, 04:45:43 PM
Size up front, particularly someone that uses it a lot.

Antro?

Wellwood?

Brayden Irwin? Top 6 forward, 1st round pick equivalent.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on October 31, 2011, 06:03:46 PM
Size up front, particularly someone that uses it a lot.

Antro?

Wellwood?

Brayden Irwin? Top 6 forward, 1st round pick equivalent.

Wasn't he a scratch a week or so ago?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on November 02, 2011, 10:50:59 AM
LeBrun;

link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/12068/kyle-turris-trade-talks-heating-up

Leafs Trade Talks

The trade calls are heating up in Toronto, a source told ESPN.com Tuesday, with the New York Rangers among the clubs that have redialed the 416 area code of late.

As we reported last week, blueliner Cody Franson is available in Toronto.

Here’s the quandary, however, for the Leafs according to the same source: Do you make a deal now and risk alienating the equilibrium you’ve got in a dressing room that’s surprised everyone in the opening month? Perhaps you wait until later in the season to deal away a defenseman from that surplus you’ve got in Toronto. That’s the debate inside the Leafs’ front office.

 

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on November 02, 2011, 10:55:49 AM
I read that yesterday.  It doesn't really say anything other than, I guess, the Rangers called us more than once.

I'm more interested in who WE are targetting than who wants to grab one of our excess d-men like Franson.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on November 02, 2011, 11:00:27 AM
LeBrun;

link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/12068/kyle-turris-trade-talks-heating-up

Leafs Trade Talks

The trade calls are heating up in Toronto, a source told ESPN.com Tuesday, with the New York Rangers among the clubs that have redialed the 416 area code of late.

As we reported last week, blueliner Cody Franson is available in Toronto.

Here’s the quandary, however, for the Leafs according to the same source: Do you make a deal now and risk alienating the equilibrium you’ve got in a dressing room that’s surprised everyone in the opening month? Perhaps you wait until later in the season to deal away a defenseman from that surplus you’ve got in Toronto. That’s the debate inside the Leafs’ front office.

I say wait until we get Reimer back and healthy so we know what this team looks like going forward.  If we're above .500 over the next 10 games, we'll be in good shape at the quarter point of the season.  Just a 6-4 record over the next 10 would leave the Leafs sitting pretty at 13-7-1 over 21 games or a 105 point pace.  At that point you can deal from a position of strength. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on November 02, 2011, 11:03:11 AM
I read that yesterday.  It doesn't really say anything other than, I guess, the Rangers called us more than once.

I'm more interested in who WE are targetting than who wants to grab one of our excess d-men like Franson.

True... Though I'm wondering if we secured a pick (I have no idea what kind Franson is worth) a package of that pick (and/or others) + a player would entice other teams as much (or more) later on in a much bigger deal than Franson +...   
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on November 02, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
I read that yesterday.  It doesn't really say anything other than, I guess, the Rangers called us more than once.

I'm more interested in who WE are targetting than who wants to grab one of our excess d-men like Franson.

Yeah. All I really get from that article is that the Rangers are interested but haven't offered anything interesting enough for Burke to pull the trigger - if they've even made an actual offer.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on November 02, 2011, 01:13:57 PM
I read that yesterday.  It doesn't really say anything other than, I guess, the Rangers called us more than once.

I'm more interested in who WE are targetting than who wants to grab one of our excess d-men like Franson.

True... Though I'm wondering if we secured a pick (I have no idea what kind Franson is worth) a package of that pick (and/or others) + a player would entice other teams as much (or more) later on in a much bigger deal than Franson +...

I think anything less than a 1st or a real quality prospect would be a donation of Fransen to another team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on November 02, 2011, 01:23:25 PM
I read that yesterday.  It doesn't really say anything other than, I guess, the Rangers called us more than once.

I'm more interested in who WE are targetting than who wants to grab one of our excess d-men like Franson.

True... Though I'm wondering if we secured a pick (I have no idea what kind Franson is worth) a package of that pick (and/or others) + a player would entice other teams as much (or more) later on in a much bigger deal than Franson +...

I think anything less than a 1st or a real quality prospect would be a donation of Fransen to another team.

I keep thinking of Burke's 'big game' trade mentality, he'll be looking for whatever he needs to that end, which may be nothing at this point ( ie, a bird in the hand ).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on November 02, 2011, 01:33:20 PM
I read that yesterday.  It doesn't really say anything other than, I guess, the Rangers called us more than once.

I'm more interested in who WE are targetting than who wants to grab one of our excess d-men like Franson.

True... Though I'm wondering if we secured a pick (I have no idea what kind Franson is worth) a package of that pick (and/or others) + a player would entice other teams as much (or more) later on in a much bigger deal than Franson +...

I think anything less than a 1st or a real quality prospect would be a donation of Fransen to another team.

I keep thinking of Burke's 'big game' trade mentality, he'll be looking for whatever he needs to that end, which may be nothing at this point ( ie, a bird in the hand ).

True, but I think he may have seen the light a bit on draft picks this past year, and I don't think they want to risk disturbing what has been some good team chemistry to this point.   

I think the days of lineup gutting trades are done, unless something can't refuse comes along.  At least, while this team is still showing it will hang in the playoff mix.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on November 02, 2011, 01:36:54 PM
True, but I think he may have seen the light a bit on draft picks this past year, and I don't think they want to risk disturbing what has been some good team chemistry to this point.   

I think the days of lineup gutting trades are done, unless something can't refuse comes along.  At least, while this team is still showing it will hang in the playoff mix.

Yeah, that too. Burke's claim of a short leash on success is probably about the same length right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bonsixx on November 02, 2011, 04:02:10 PM
A little off topic, but also a little on topic:

Anyone not satisfied with Monster as the #2, any interest in Scott Clemmensen? Looks like rookie Jacob Markstrom has made him more than redundant in Florida and he'd probably come cheap.

I'm not advocating the move, just putting it out there, as it appears Clemm will be on the block.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bonsixx on November 02, 2011, 04:02:53 PM
A little off topic, but also a little on topic:

Anyone not satisfied with Monster as the #2, any interest in Scott Kulemensen? Looks like rookie Jacob Markstrom has made him more than redundant in Florida and he'd probably come cheap.

I'm not advocating the move, just putting it out there, as it appears Kulem will be on the block.

Oh not being able to type C l e m m e n s e n...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on November 02, 2011, 04:45:55 PM
A little off topic, but also a little on topic:

Anyone not satisfied with Monster as the #2, any interest in Scott Kulemensen? Looks like rookie Jacob Markstrom has made him more than redundant in Florida and he'd probably come cheap.

I'm not advocating the move, just putting it out there, as it appears Kulem will be on the block.

I see what you did there.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on November 02, 2011, 06:42:21 PM
It was done for him...

I see what was done there, Kule.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: buds50 on November 19, 2011, 07:02:17 PM
From LeBrun

Leafs' trade talk

The Leafs' newfound depth, especially on defense, has the club working the phones to see if there's any interest in some of their players. Defenseman Carl Gunnarsson and center Tyler Bozak are among the names that have been discussed, but as of Wednesday, we're told nothing was close with any team. The Leafs could also start the season with eight defensemen on their roster. (http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/11585/rumblings-latest-on-talks-for-doughty-suter-rinne-kronwall-mccabe-and-more)

I know Burke has to do his best to get numbers down, but I don't really like the Bozak talk. Now maybe Bozak would fetch something of value, but, he could also turn out to be a long lasting quality player for us as well. Personally, I would rather we wait an see what we have in him. It all depends on what is offered of course, but with his solid rookie numbers, he could turn out to be one of those players that leaves here and blossoms somewhere else and I wouldn't like that. This could be the Turris/ Bozak rumour they're talking about, but I thought I would mention it, because it's coming straight from LeBrun.

Gunnarsson on the other hand may be the guy that the organization deems expendable, with the contract of Komisarek not being movable at this point and the emergence of young Gardiner. I think I'm okay with that, but obviously, my first choice to leave would be Komisarek. We could get a good pick for Carl I think, but maybe Burke is looking to package in order to land a bigger fish, we'll have to wait and see.

BB...YOU NEED TO GET JEFF CARTER  ..... whatever it takes ,im reading he has asked for a trade out of columbus. we have missed him a cpl times thnx to sundin and kaberle not leaving at the time.i think its imperative you aquire him this time !!!!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on November 19, 2011, 07:08:23 PM
Spbrained my damage, thx.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on December 13, 2011, 12:23:09 PM
Elliotte Friedman seems to think Kadri is being scouted heavily by other teams and he may be a chip Burke is dangling in a trade.

At least he is playing well right now. I honestly can't see where he projects into the lineup in the next few years, so he is probably a good piece to use. As we all know, the team needs big skilled players, not another small skilled one.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2011/12/carlyles-vaction-is-over-30-thoughts.html (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2011/12/carlyles-vaction-is-over-30-thoughts.html)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 12:47:07 PM
Keeping Kadri out of the equation here, would anyone consider buying low on Penner right now? He's a UFA this summer so I'm thinking that + his performance this year probably means he could be had on the cheap.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 12:50:30 PM
Keeping Kadri out of the equation here, would anyone consider buying low on Penner right now? He's a UFA this summer so I'm thinking that + his performance this year probably means he could be had on the cheap.

Where does he really fit in, though? The similar players on the roster right now are performing as well or better at a better salary. Outside of being big, he doesn't provide any upgrade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 12:53:41 PM
At least he is playing well right now. I honestly can't see where he projects into the lineup in the next few years, so he is probably a good piece to use.

Right now this team badly needs some consistent secondary scoring. I wouldn't rule out Kadri being able to fill that void at some point.

As for trading him, as always, it depends on the return.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 12:57:11 PM
Keeping Kadri out of the equation here, would anyone consider buying low on Penner right now? He's a UFA this summer so I'm thinking that + his performance this year probably means he could be had on the cheap.

Where does he really fit in, though? The similar players on the roster right now are performing as well or better at a better salary. Outside of being big, he doesn't provide any upgrade.

In front of the net would be a good spot... I don't know. Lupul is power forward(ish) but I think Penner could (BIG COULD) bring something that to the table we don't already have.  - Might help us a little in tougher too. I think those Boston games showed us we're lacking in that dept.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:01:37 PM
Here's a proposal... Would anyone consider dealing Lombardi for Penner straight up?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 01:04:56 PM
In front of the net would be a good spot... I don't know. Lupul is power forward(ish) but I think Penner could (BIG COULD) bring something that to the table we don't already have.  - Might help us a little in tougher too. I think those Boston games showed us we're lacking in that dept.

In what world did I wake up in where Dustin Penner is considered tough?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 01:05:15 PM
In front of the net would be a good spot... I don't know. Lupul is power forward(ish) but I think Penner could (BIG COULD) bring something that to the table we don't already have.  - Might help us a little in tougher too. I think those Boston games showed us we're lacking in that dept.

I don't know. Offence hasn't really been a major issue for this team. What they need are players that are more defensively responsible, and I don't believe that's an area where Penner would be of any help.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:05:43 PM
In front of the net would be a good spot... I don't know. Lupul is power forward(ish) but I think Penner could (BIG COULD) bring something that to the table we don't already have.  - Might help us a little in tougher too. I think those Boston games showed us we're lacking in that dept.

In what world did I wake up in where Dustin Penner is considered tough?

He's not?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Deebo on December 13, 2011, 01:09:39 PM
At least he is playing well right now. I honestly can't see where he projects into the lineup in the next few years, so he is probably a good piece to use.

Right now this team badly needs some consistent secondary scoring. I wouldn't rule out Kadri being able to fill that void at some point.

As for trading him, as always, it depends on the return.

They also need primary scoring since Kessel is in a slump.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 01:10:12 PM
He's not?

I wouldn't consider him to be soft, but, I wouldn't exactly call him tough either. He's a big guy, so, he can play a physical game, but, it's certainly not an area where he excels. He's definitely not the type of guy that imposes his will, physically. He's pretty run of the mill in the toughness department.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:10:35 PM

They also need primary scoring since Kessel is in a slump.

 :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Newbury on December 13, 2011, 01:10:42 PM
In front of the net would be a good spot... I don't know. Lupul is power forward(ish) but I think Penner could (BIG COULD) bring something that to the table we don't already have.  - Might help us a little in tougher too. I think those Boston games showed us we're lacking in that dept.

In what world did I wake up in where Dustin Penner is considered tough?

He's not?

Simply put, no.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:13:28 PM
He's not?

I wouldn't consider him to be soft, but, I wouldn't exactly call him tough either. He's a big guy, so, he can play a physical game, but, it's certainly not an area where he excels. He's definitely not the type of guy that imposes his will, physically. He's pretty run of the mill in the toughness department.

I don't know. He strikes me as a guy a team like Boston might assign their best/biggest defenceman (Chara) to remove from the front of the net, possible giving Kessel (or any other forward for that matter) more elbow room out there.   
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 01:19:05 PM
I don't know. He strikes me as a guy a team like Boston might assign their best/biggest defenceman (Chara) to remove from the front of the net, possible giving Kessel (or any other forward for that matter) more elbow room out there.

Penner's just not that type of player. The Charas of the league will always be assigned to the Kessels of the league. The Penners get matched up with the Seidenbergs.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 01:19:42 PM
He's not?

He's not tougher than Kulemin or Grabo or any number of guys the Leafs already have. He's bigger than them, sure, but it's not like that size has translated into any pucks going into the net.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:23:25 PM
Bah... I still like the idea of a 4 month (or so) experiment with Penner if he could be had for the right price.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 13, 2011, 01:25:52 PM
Kind of handcuffs Burke's ability to pull off a trade later, cap wise, without a lot of dough going the other way.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:28:03 PM
Kind of handcuffs Burke's ability to pull off a trade later, cap wise, without a lot of dough going the other way.

That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 13, 2011, 01:33:40 PM
Kind of handcuffs Burke's ability to pull off a trade later, cap wise, without a lot of dough going the other way.

That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Ah, right, well I'm not sure of the likelihood of trading an oft injured centre facing the possibility of surgery on his shoulder currently. How does it makes sense from LA's end?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 01:34:56 PM
That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Until Lombardi can show he's healthy, in shape and capable of contributing, there's no way the Kings would even consider him in a deal. They won't take on an extra year @ $3.5M to save the prorated portion of the $750K difference between them, even with Penner's struggles. Heck, even if Lombardi was healthy, I think the extra year on his deal might be prohibitive to LA. I don't think Lombardi is going to be a Leaf for very long, but, until he's healthy, he's going nowhere - and, even when he is, he's unlikely to return anything but a mid-round pick/mediocre prospect, or a smaller contract that also runs through the end of next season.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on December 13, 2011, 01:36:41 PM
I like this talk of Lombardi to the Kings.  The GM is Lombardi, he naturally wants the same last name coming onto his team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:41:57 PM
That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Until Lombardi can show he's healthy, in shape and capable of contributing, there's no way the Kings would even consider him in a deal. They won't take on an extra year @ $3.5M to save the prorated portion of the $750K difference between them, even with Penner's struggles. Heck, even if Lombardi was healthy, I think the extra year on his deal might be prohibitive to LA. I don't think Lombardi is going to be a Leaf for very long, but, until he's healthy, he's going nowhere - and, even when he is, he's unlikely to return anything but a mid-round pick/mediocre prospect, or a smaller contract that also runs through the end of next season.

I could be wrong but I think the Kings might be eager enough to get rid of Penner to do that. Adding fuel to often busted machine in my noggin is that maybe there's a relationship there with Lombardi and (rumoured soon to be) new coach Darryl Sutter.  :-\
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zid on December 13, 2011, 01:43:58 PM
That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Until Lombardi can show he's healthy, in shape and capable of contributing, there's no way the Kings would even consider him in a deal. They won't take on an extra year @ $3.5M to save the prorated portion of the $750K difference between them, even with Penner's struggles. Heck, even if Lombardi was healthy, I think the extra year on his deal might be prohibitive to LA. I don't think Lombardi is going to be a Leaf for very long, but, until he's healthy, he's going nowhere - and, even when he is, he's unlikely to return anything but a mid-round pick/mediocre prospect, or a smaller contract that also runs through the end of next season.

I could be wrong but I think the Kings might be eager enough to get rid of Penner to do that. Adding fuel to often busted machine in my noggin is that maybe there's a relationship there with Lombardi and (rumoured soon to be) new coach Darryl Sutter.  :-\

How do Sutters keep getting these NHL jobs. Everything they touch turns to pooh.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:44:21 PM
Kind of handcuffs Burke's ability to pull off a trade later, cap wise, without a lot of dough going the other way.

That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Ah, right, well I'm not sure of the likelihood of trading an oft injured centre facing the possibility of surgery on his shoulder currently. How does it makes sense from LA's end?

It would be a gamble but they'd get the extra year out of Lombardi and again, I'm operating under the assumption that LA isn't exactly high on Penner right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 01:46:28 PM
I could be wrong but I think the Kings might be eager enough to get rid of Penner to do that. Adding fuel to often busted machine in my noggin is that maybe there's a relationship there with Lombardi and (rumoured soon to be) new coach Darryl Sutter.  :-\

Relationship or not, the Kings aren't going to add any contracts that risk having them miss out on the Zach Parise sweepstakes this summer. If they're really that eager to get rid of Penner, they could easily find a taker that didn't involve taking on a contract that lasts past this season. As an impending UFA, Penner's contract doesn't hurt his value as much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 13, 2011, 01:48:27 PM
Kind of handcuffs Burke's ability to pull off a trade later, cap wise, without a lot of dough going the other way.

That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Ah, right, well I'm not sure of the likelihood of trading an oft injured centre facing the possibility of surgery on his shoulder currently. How does it makes sense from LA's end?

It would be a gamble but they'd get the extra year out of Lombardi and again, I'm operating under the assumption that LA isn't exactly high on Penner right now.

Maybe so but don't you think LA could do better than that? Penner as a deadline rental should fetch something way more appealing.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:50:20 PM
I could be wrong but I think the Kings might be eager enough to get rid of Penner to do that. Adding fuel to often busted machine in my noggin is that maybe there's a relationship there with Lombardi and (rumoured soon to be) new coach Darryl Sutter.  :-\

Relationship or not, the Kings aren't going to add any contracts that risk having them miss out on the Zach Parise sweepstakes this summer. If they're really that eager to get rid of Penner, they could easily find a taker that didn't involve taking on a contract that lasts past this season. As an impending UFA, Penner's contract doesn't hurt his value as much.

Well, In addition to Penner's 4.25, they also get rid of Stoll's 3.6 and Mitchell's 3.5 and have no significant RFAs to sign... I think they'd be fine as far as the Parise sweeps go.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:52:58 PM
Kind of handcuffs Burke's ability to pull off a trade later, cap wise, without a lot of dough going the other way.

That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Ah, right, well I'm not sure of the likelihood of trading an oft injured centre facing the possibility of surgery on his shoulder currently. How does it makes sense from LA's end?

It would be a gamble but they'd get the extra year out of Lombardi and again, I'm operating under the assumption that LA isn't exactly high on Penner right now.

Maybe so but don't you think LA could do better than that? Penner as a deadline rental should fetch something way more appealing.

Yeah, you might be right... My feeling remains the same though... I wouldn't mind taking Penner for a test drive if the price was right. I'm not sure I'd give up much more than a Lombardi though.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Deebo on December 13, 2011, 01:53:40 PM
Why would the Kings want him though?

They could move Penner, if they wanted to move him that is, without taking on a risky contract like Lombardi.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 01:56:03 PM
well, In addition to Penner's 4.25, they also get rif of Stoll's 3.6 and Mitchell's 3.5 and have no significant RFAs to sign... I think theyfs be fine as far as the Parise sweeps go.

They also have over $50M committed for next season, uncertainty over the cap with the new CBA (there is very real potential the ceiling will drop for next season) and other areas of the team I'm sure they'd like to upgrade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 01:57:23 PM
Why would the Kings want him though?

They could move Penner, if they wanted to move him that is, without taking on a risky contract like Lombardi.

They might not... I outlined a couple reasons albeit far-fetched. There might be some other Leaf assets they prefer for sure.     
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 13, 2011, 02:00:21 PM
well, In addition to Penner's 4.25, they also get rif of Stoll's 3.6 and Mitchell's 3.5 and have no significant RFAs to sign... I think theyfs be fine as far as the Parise sweeps go.

They also have over $50M committed for next season, uncertainty over the cap with the new CBA (there is very real potential the ceiling will drop for next season) and other areas of the team I'm sure they'd like to upgrade.

I've been wondering about the possibility of a cap ceiling drop, wouldn't a general rollback become an issue in that case?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 02:01:48 PM
Well, In addition to Penner's 4.25, they also get rid of Stoll's 3.6 and Mitchell's 3.5 and have no significant RFAs to sign... I think they'd be fine as far as the Parise sweeps go.

They also have over $50M committed for next season, uncertainty over the cap with the new CBA (there is very real potential the ceiling will drop for next season) and other areas of the team I'm sure they'd like to upgrade.

I don't think they're in horrible shape.  Even if the cap drops a bit, Parise is the type of guy you make room for if you need to.

Edit: and pardon the bad grammar in the previous post... I'll go back and fix...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 02:04:39 PM
well, In addition to Penner's 4.25, they also get rif of Stoll's 3.6 and Mitchell's 3.5 and have no significant RFAs to sign... I think theyfs be fine as far as the Parise sweeps go.

But those are two important parts of their team(their #3 defenseman and #1 PK'ing forward) they'd still have to replace. Add in what the new CBA might bring and that doesn't leave them as a team with a ton of wiggle room at all.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 02:05:19 PM
I've been wondering about the possibility of a cap ceiling drop, wouldn't a general rollback become an issue in that case?

That's something that would have to be agreed upon as part of the negotiations. It's a possibility, but, it's certainly not a guarantee.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 02:07:11 PM
I don't think they're in horrible shape.  Even if the cap drops a bit, Parise is the type of guy you make room for if you need to.

Edit: and pardon the bad grammar in the previous post... I'll go back and fix...

Sure, but, it becomes that much harder to make room for him when you replace a pending UFA with a player who will still be under contract.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 02:07:26 PM
Well, in addition to Penner's 4.25, they also get rid of Stoll's 3.6 and Mitchell's 3.5 and have no significant RFAs to sign... I think they'd be fine as far as the Parise sweeps go.

But those are two important parts of their team(their #3 defenseman and #1 PK'ing forward) they'd still have to replace. Add in what the new CBA might bring and that doesn't leave them as a team with a ton of wiggle room at all.

They don't have to spend 7.1 mil. on a penalty killer and a second pairing defenceman.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 13, 2011, 02:09:23 PM
I've been wondering about the possibility of a cap ceiling drop, wouldn't a general rollback become an issue in that case?

That's something that would have to be agreed upon as part of the negotiations. It's a possibility, but, it's certainly not a guarantee.

For sure it would have to be bargained but if the ceiling were to drop as a result of bargaining then it seems to follow pretty naturally to me. No guarantee though, agreed.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 02:16:20 PM
Another less talented and infinitely less popular guy I might take a look at is Ben Eager.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 02:18:54 PM
They don't have to spend 7.1 mil. on a penalty killer and a second pairing defenceman.

But you can't replace players like that on the cheap either without really hurting your team's depth. Even cutting that number in half, which would be scraping the bottom of the barrel, leaves them without much in the way to offer Parise.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 02:22:59 PM
They don't have to spend 7.1 mil. on a penalty killer and a second pairing defenceman.

But you can't replace players like that on the cheap either without really hurting your team's depth. Even cutting that number in half, which would be scraping the bottom of the barrel, leaves them without much in the way to offer Parise.

Again, not a daunting task to work with what's left in my opinion.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 02:32:04 PM
Again, not a daunting task to work with what's left in my opinion.

Without making themselves a weaker team, it's a much more daunting task than you're giving it credit for. The $3.5M they'd owe Lombardi next season could be the difference to them being a bubble team with Parise because of the downgrades they've made in other areas or being a potential contender with Parise because they didn't have to make those downgrades.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 02:38:43 PM
Again, not a daunting task to work with what's left in my opinion.

Without making themselves a weaker team, it's a much more daunting task than you're giving it credit for. The $3.5M they'd owe Lombardi next season could be the difference to them being a bubble team with Parise because of the downgrades they've made in other areas or being a potential contender with Parise because they didn't have to make those downgrades.

I don't think the downgrades you speak of would be all that big of a deal. Moreover, if I'm an owner hell bent for Parise, and my GM told me he couldn't do because he was a couple of million off the cap, I'd be telling him to go look for other work because I'd find a GM who could.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 13, 2011, 02:41:27 PM
I've been wondering about the possibility of a cap ceiling drop, wouldn't a general rollback become an issue in that case?

That's something that would have to be agreed upon as part of the negotiations. It's a possibility, but, it's certainly not a guarantee.

My guess is the floor drops, not the ceiling, and the overall revenue % share to the players drops with it.  The floor is killing the have not's and I think the bigger teams will be unhappy about a payroll cut yet again.


edit: my guess, meaning this is what I think the owners will be asking for. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 13, 2011, 02:44:10 PM
That's why I suggested Lombardi... No offense to Lombardi but I'm not sure what his future is with this team... where does he fit?

Until Lombardi can show he's healthy, in shape and capable of contributing, there's no way the Kings would even consider him in a deal. They won't take on an extra year @ $3.5M to save the prorated portion of the $750K difference between them, even with Penner's struggles. Heck, even if Lombardi was healthy, I think the extra year on his deal might be prohibitive to LA. I don't think Lombardi is going to be a Leaf for very long, but, until he's healthy, he's going nowhere - and, even when he is, he's unlikely to return anything but a mid-round pick/mediocre prospect, or a smaller contract that also runs through the end of next season.

I could be wrong but I think the Kings might be eager enough to get rid of Penner to do that. Adding fuel to often busted machine in my noggin is that maybe there's a relationship there with Lombardi and (rumoured soon to be) new coach Darryl Sutter.  :-\

How do Sutters keep getting these NHL jobs. Everything they touch turns to pooh.

It does when they get into management roles.

Darryl coached the Sharks to some reasonable success, coached the Flames from a non-playoff team all the way to the finals.  He also had some success in Chicago before San Jose.   

He's a good coach, just not a good GM.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 02:51:58 PM
Again, not a daunting task to work with what's left in my opinion.

But the issue isn't whether or not it's a daunting task. It's whether or not that 3.5 million dollars is money they'd rather pay in the services of retaining/replacing Mitchell and Stoll, who are important members of the team, or if they'd rather spend it on Lombardi. What possible rationale is there for giving it to Lombardi?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
Again, not a daunting task to work with what's left in my opinion.

But the issue isn't whether or not it's a daunting task. It's whether or not that 3.5 million dollars is money they'd rather pay in the services of retaining/replacing Mitchell and Stoll, who are important members of the team, or if they'd rather spend it on Lombardi. What possible rationale is there for giving it to Lombardi?

Acquiring Lombardi (or another similar contract back) in a deal for Penner does not prevent the Kings from effectively replacing Stoll and Mitchell while at the same time, being in the conversation for Parise should they choose to be.... Don't be hung up on the Lombardi. I'm not.     
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 03:34:53 PM
Acquiring Lombardi (or another similar contract back) in a deal for Penner does not prevent the Kings from effectively replacing Stoll and Mitchell while at the same time, being in the conversation for Parise should they choose to be.... Don't be hung up on the Lombardi. I'm not.     

I'm hung up on the idea that you think the Kings, who will count every cap dollar twice for next year, will take on dead weight contracts when they could just let Penner play out the string or deal him for a low round pick come the deadline.

We don't know what the cap is going to look like next year with the CBA so teams are going to be more cautious about taking on extra salary commitments beyond next year. For a team like the Kings, who have important pieces to re-sign/replace and would like to be in on Parise, that counts double. In order to get them to take on a Lombardi-like contract(and the Leafs don't really have any contracts that are similar to Lombardi) you'd have to offer an inducement that could make up for the loss of a Mitchell or a Stoll, at which point you're paying an absurd price for an underperforming Penner.

Mitchell and Stoll are good players in important roles. They don't grow on trees and they don't come at league minimum prices.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 03:41:17 PM
I feel the same way about Mitchell and Stoll as you do but I guess that's where our opinion of the other players in question ends. Clearly I have a higher opinion of Lombardi than you do. As far as Penner goes, sure the Kings might look toward futures but again, I don't think they need to limit themselves to a futures type deal.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 03:46:05 PM
I feel the same way about Mitchell and Stoll as you do but I guess that's where our opinion of the other players in question ends. Clearly I have a higher opinion of Lombardi than you do. As far as Penner goes, sure the Kings might look toward futures but again, I don't think they need to limit themselves to a futures type deal.

That makes even less sense. You value Lombardi highly but you'd be willing to deal him for Penner?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 04:01:51 PM
I feel the same way about Mitchell and Stoll as you do but I guess that's where our opinion of the other players in question ends. Clearly I have a higher opinion of Lombardi than you do. As far as Penner goes, sure the Kings might look toward futures but again, I don't think they need to limit themselves to a futures type deal.

That makes even less sense. You value Lombardi highly but you'd be willing to deal him for Penner?

Not sure how that makes less sense or doesn't make sense at all but hey, whatever... Anyway, "highly?" Well, higher than you and yeah, I think I've made it clear a couple of times that I'd gamble on Penner for the remainder of his contract. It's not like it's a huge commitment and as much as I think Lombardi might still be a useful player (certainly not "dead weight" as you called him) I don't think trading him is going to leave a huge void in our roster. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Red Polar Bear on December 13, 2011, 04:18:21 PM
Another less talented and infinitely less popular guy I might take a look at is Ben Eager.

Pass.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 04:20:42 PM
Well, higher than you and yeah, I think I've made it clear a couple of times that I'd gamble on Penner for the remainder of his contract.

Ah yes, because of his toughness.

It's just not something that makes sense for either team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 04:21:34 PM
Another less talented and infinitely less popular guy I might take a look at is Ben Eager.

Pass.

Yeah, I'm sure many would... He can skate though. I'm just hopeful for more "attitude" shall we say among our forward group.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 04:30:02 PM
Well, higher than you and yeah, I think I've made it clear a couple of times that I'd gamble on Penner for the remainder of his contract.

Ah yes, because of his toughness.


 There is no question he can be a force in front of the net and therefore "tough." I also considered Sundin "tough" but he didn't go around beating anyone up either. Or, maybe you thought Sundin to be a soft player too or maybe you're somehow just trying to have some fun here. Either way, I'm not sure it advances the conversation along any further. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Red Polar Bear on December 13, 2011, 04:33:57 PM
Another less talented and infinitely less popular guy I might take a look at is Ben Eager.

Pass.

Yeah, I'm sure many would... He can skate though. I'm just hopeful for more "attitude" shall we say among our forward group.

I think that problem stems from the lack of Armstrong and Brown in the lineup.

If we were to get Eager, would he be in your lineup if Armstrong and Brown were both in?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 04:34:55 PM
There is no question he can be a force in front of the net and therefore "tough." I also considered Sundin "tough" but he didn't go around beating anyone up either. Or, maybe you thought Sundin to be a soft player too or maybe you're somehow just trying to have some fun here. Either way, I'm not sure it advances the conversation along any further.

1) I think Mats Sundin was a soft player
2) I'm just having fun here

or

3) I don't equate Dustin Penner with Mats Sundin

For those of you playing along at home, the answer is 3.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 04:36:53 PM

If we were to get Eager, would he be in your lineup if Armstrong and Brown were both in?

Maybe not but isn't it not looking so good for Brown's return? A lot of guys never fully recover from surgeries like that. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 04:42:25 PM
There is no question he can be a force in front of the net and therefore "tough."

He can be, and yet, he generally isn't. He may be capable of being "tough" but, he is not, in actuality, "tough."
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 13, 2011, 04:45:38 PM
Sarge - Penner? For reals?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 05:30:36 PM
Sarge - Penner? For reals?

I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 13, 2011, 05:38:18 PM
I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

...can anyone help me out here?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 13, 2011, 06:03:57 PM
Sarge - Penner? For reals?

I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

A "song" is a mid-to-low round draft pick, or a mid-level prospect. It's not a player who arguably has as bad if not a worse contract than the guy you're trading away. I like Lombardi, and even to this day I'd still make that Lebda trade, but he hasn't shown anything yet to prove he deserves $3.5mil for this season and next.

I'm assuming you think LA would be shopping Penner because of his cap hit and lack of performance, and not because he's a potential lockerroom cancer (not that I've heard anything to suggest that). In that case, which of these three options makes the most sense? A) Waiving Penner. B) Allowing Penner's contract to play out and expire which would give them an extra $4.5mil next summer to play with to sign a top-6 winger. C) Trade Penner for Lombardi, a player who isn't exactly an upgrade on Penner nor is he an organizational need. This frees up $750k this season but adds $3.5mil to the teams cap next season.

I know I don't exactly paint the 3rd option in the greatest light, but that's because it's really hard to.
 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 13, 2011, 06:04:22 PM
I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

...can anyone help me out here?

Roberta Flack?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 13, 2011, 06:22:18 PM
Sarge - Penner? For reals?

I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

That depends on what song you're talking about.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 06:24:43 PM
I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

For a song? Maybe. But, for dead weight? Not so much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 06:30:30 PM
Sarge - Penner? For reals?

I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

A "song" is a mid-to-low round draft pick, or a mid-level prospect. It's not a player who arguably has as bad if not a worse contract than the guy you're trading away. I like Lombardi, and even to this day I'd still make that Lebda trade, but he hasn't shown anything yet to prove he deserves $3.5mil for this season and next.

I'm assuming you think LA would be shopping Penner because of his cap hit and lack of performance, and not because he's a potential lockerroom cancer (not that I've heard anything to suggest that). In that case, which of these three options makes the most sense? A) Waiving Penner. B) Allowing Penner's contract to play out and expire which would give them an extra $4.5mil next summer to play with to sign a top-6 winger. C) Trade Penner for Lombardi, a player who isn't exactly an upgrade on Penner nor is he an organizational need. This frees up $750k this season but adds $3.5mil to the teams cap next season.

I know I don't exactly paint the 3rd option in the greatest light, but that's because it's really hard to.

"B" I suppose but I guess if you could get "futures" you do it... So "D." Penner for futures... Which from the Leafs side, I might do for a mid/late round draft pick or AHL player with not much upside.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 13, 2011, 06:35:31 PM
"B" I suppose but I guess if you could get "futures" you do it... So "D." Penner for futures... Which from the Leafs side, I might do for a mid/late round draft pick or AHL player with not much upside.

Which the Leafs don't really have the cap space to do right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 13, 2011, 06:45:20 PM
"B" I suppose but I guess if you could get "futures" you do it... So "D." Penner for futures... Which from the Leafs side, I might do for a mid/late round draft pick or AHL player with not much upside.

Which the Leafs don't really have the cap space to do right now.

No. I suppose we don't. Though as discussed earlier, they'll need a penalty killer and middle pairing defencman to potentially replace Stoll and Mitchell... I wonder if we could accommodate that but I'd want something much more than Penner obviously. Maybe a deal similar to the Lupul one where we took the risk (which more than paid off) on the player plus got an asset back (Gardiner.)   
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on December 13, 2011, 06:56:15 PM
LA has the worst offense in the league apparently. if i were trading with them, i might consider sending an offensive asset in the other direction for a future.  what about maccarther + a leafs third for LA's first round draft pick next year or something like that? (LA probably wouldnt go for it but perhaps you get the picture). 

i would slot in kadri or colborne to take the roster spot.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 14, 2011, 09:32:48 AM
I'd try it.. what the hell.. If it doesn't pan out? Nothing lost really. I really think he can be had for a song.  :-\

...can anyone help me out here?

Roberta Flack?

Its Raining Men!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 10:28:00 AM
I've been wondering about the possibility of a cap ceiling drop, wouldn't a general rollback become an issue in that case?

That's something that would have to be agreed upon as part of the negotiations. It's a possibility, but, it's certainly not a guarantee.

My guess is the floor drops, not the ceiling, and the overall revenue % share to the players drops with it.  The floor is killing the have not's and I think the bigger teams will be unhappy about a payroll cut yet again.


edit: my guess, meaning this is what I think the owners will be asking for.

I agree CF.  That is what I was thinking too.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 14, 2011, 10:38:10 AM
I've been wondering about the possibility of a cap ceiling drop, wouldn't a general rollback become an issue in that case?

That's something that would have to be agreed upon as part of the negotiations. It's a possibility, but, it's certainly not a guarantee.

My guess is the floor drops, not the ceiling, and the overall revenue % share to the players drops with it.  The floor is killing the have not's and I think the bigger teams will be unhappy about a payroll cut yet again.


edit: my guess, meaning this is what I think the owners will be asking for.

I agree CF.  That is what I was thinking too.

I think we'll see some give and take in more than one place. The floor may well drop some but I suspect revenue sharing will also be increased some along with an overall drop in the players share of the revenues that will reduce the cap some relative to where it otherwise would have been.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 11:14:17 AM

I think that problem stems from the lack of Armstrong and Brown in the lineup.

If we were to get Eager, would he be in your lineup if Armstrong and Brown were both in?

Armstrong is as useful for toughness as Steve Webb and less than Matt Cooke or Sean Avery.  Colby is apparently a fantastic team guy but on the ice is a wimp and dirty hitter.

Brown is a great middleweight sheriff ready to protect team mates but Eager is big enough to fight anyone necessary. Eager also can score and play a regular shift on the 3rd or 4th line.

If we compare the Leafs to the Cup Champs there is 4 areas where the Leafs blatantly lack. 

1. Experienced goaltending...but that might come over the next few years.

2. Top 6 power forward. 

I believe that the top 2 lines of Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Seguin and Horton are comparable to Connolly, Grabovski, MacArthur, Kessel and Lupul in skill speed and toughness.  What the Leafs don't have is a Lucic.  A Ryan Clowe type player in a Owen Nolan type trade which could be MacArthur (hoping that either Kulemin or Lombardi could replace him), Kadri and a 1st (or dman) would have to be acquired since no one in the system is comparable in my books.

3. A behemoth dman. 

On defense the Leafs match quite nicely #2-#6.  Unfortunately Phaneuf is not a freak of nature like Chara.  This can not be addressed as far as I see.

4. A 'sheriff' who can take a regular shift.

On the bottom six the Leafs are comparable as well except for Leaf draft pick Shawn Thornton who can fight and play a regular shift.  If Orr could do that then Leafs would have a superior bottom 6 with Kulemin/Lombardi, Bozak, Frattin/Armstrong, Brown and Steckel.  If Orr can't then Eager could fill the role on the 4th line with Steckel and Brown.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 14, 2011, 12:28:29 PM
Colby is a wimp and a dirty hitter? Didn't know that...

I still wish the Leafs had landed Talbot this year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 14, 2011, 12:43:43 PM
If we compare the Leafs to the Cup Champs there is 4 areas where the Leafs blatantly lack. 

But if the Leafs had done that the year before they'd have a totally different list of things that separated them from the Blackhawks. Likewise the year before with the Penguins.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 14, 2011, 01:02:48 PM
But if the Leafs had done that the year before they'd have a totally different list of things that separated them from the Blackhawks. Likewise the year before with the Penguins.

No, no, no. The only way to build a Cup winner is to exactly what the team that just won the Cup did. All previous Cup winners are immediately rendered irrelevant when they are unable to repeat.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 14, 2011, 01:21:06 PM
I think the Leafs should build themselves exactly like the Vancouver Canucks........... minus the diving team and the collapsing goalie guy.

No ogre-sized PFs on that team.  No bruising hulk d-men either.  Oh, also.. no sheriff.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 01:30:08 PM
But if the Leafs had done that the year before they'd have a totally different list of things that separated them from the Blackhawks. Likewise the year before with the Penguins.

No, no, no. The only way to build a Cup winner is to exactly what the team that just won the Cup did. All previous Cup winners are immediately rendered irrelevant when they are unable to repeat.

So you would rather dissect a losing team?  Chicago had team similar to Boston as well in chemistry.  Besides Detroit what other team didn't have toughness and still won the Cup?

Nice comment though.  Showed intelligence.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 01:40:28 PM
Colby is a wimp and a dirty hitter? Didn't know that...

I still wish the Leafs had landed Talbot this year.

I have been biased against Armstrong since his Pittsburgh days... Letowski hit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U6-d8frhko).  I could show some youtube videos of various hits and bore everyone but whatever. He also turtles which I won't waste time showing.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 14, 2011, 01:47:48 PM
So you would rather dissect a losing team?  Chicago had team similar to Boston as well in chemistry.  Besides Detroit what other team didn't have toughness and still won the Cup?

I don't think you can look at the cup winning Canes or Penguins and find a Shawn Thornton type who played a regular shift. Likewise neither of those teams had much in the way of a physical #1 defenseman. Or experienced goaltending.

The point being, there's lots of ways to build a cup winner.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 14, 2011, 01:48:23 PM
But if the Leafs had done that the year before they'd have a totally different list of things that separated them from the Blackhawks. Likewise the year before with the Penguins.

No, no, no. The only way to build a Cup winner is to exactly what the team that just won the Cup did. All previous Cup winners are immediately rendered irrelevant when they are unable to repeat.

So you would rather dissect a losing team?  Chicago had team similar to Boston as well in chemistry.  Besides Detroit what other team didn't have toughness and still won the Cup?

Nice comment though.  Showed intelligence.

I guess that depends on how you define 'tough', teams that win the cup are tough to me. Pittsburgh didn't have a Lucic or Chara or Thornton, Chicago didn't have a Chara or Thomas, Carolina...Tampa...

I appreciate the recent cup winners as a comparison but there's more than one way to get to the promised land.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 01:50:32 PM
If we compare the Leafs to the Cup Champs there is 4 areas where the Leafs blatantly lack. 

But if the Leafs had done that the year before they'd have a totally different list of things that separated them from the Blackhawks. Likewise the year before with the Penguins.

I see the Chicago team as a similar chemistry to Boston.  Pittsburgh was close but not quite.  They also had 'franchise player' Crosby which balances most deficiencies nicely as well.

The exception I have seen is Detroit which had no sheriff or decent goaltending (no offense to Chris Osgood).  Vancouver certainly choked.  This might be to much of a rabbit trail from "Burke using depth etc...."
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 14, 2011, 01:54:50 PM
So you would rather dissect a losing team?  Chicago had team similar to Boston as well in chemistry.  Besides Detroit what other team didn't have toughness and still won the Cup?

Nice comment though.  Showed intelligence.

Just because Boston won the Cup their way doesn't mean the Leafs should follow their model. There is more than one path to the Cup. There always has been and there always will be. Every year, people come along and say their team needs to be built like the previous Cup winner, and, just about every year, another team comes along and wins the Cup with a different style. There is no blueprint.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 02:02:01 PM

I guess that depends on how you define 'tough', teams that win the cup are tough to me. Pittsburgh didn't have a Lucic or Chara or Thornton, Chicago didn't have a Chara or Thomas, Carolina...Tampa...

I appreciate the recent cup winners as a comparison but there's more than one way to get to the promised land.

I guess with Pittsburgh having enough high picks and franchise player Crosby becomes an equalizer and then with stellar goal tending from MA Fleury it was attainable without a Lucic or 4th line tough guy who could play.

Chara is a freak of nature and I feel that Chicago had a freak of nature as well with Byfuglien who gave opponents fits including Pronger.  Their goalie was amazing and they had Eager who is almost a duplicate of Thornton but 7 years younger.

Carolina was a surprise to me (and I suspect others too...at least I hope so) as a Cinderella team but had solid vets and outstanding goalie.  I wouldn't ever base a team on their makeup.  I am not even sure off the top of my head how many playoff rounds they have won since.

Anyway, I believe that there are certain elements that help a team be successful.  In the formula I just assumed that a franchise player or freak of nature really can't be included because they are so rare.  :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 14, 2011, 02:10:49 PM
Their goalie was amazing and they had Eager who is almost a duplicate of Thornton but 7 years younger.

Niemi wasn't amazing. He had a 2.63 GAA and a .910 SV% in the playoffs. By comparison Osgood, who you say didn't give Detroit decent goaltending, was at 1.55 and .930.

There's more unanimity in cup winners having, say, a top flight #1 centre or brilliant offensive defenseman, neither of which the Leafs have or Bruins had, than there is in a tough guy or a top quality power forward.

But the reality is there's no unanimity in anything.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 02:12:37 PM

Just because Boston won the Cup their way doesn't mean the Leafs should follow their model. There is more than one path to the Cup. There always has been and there always will be. Every year, people come along and say their team needs to be built like the previous Cup winner, and, just about every year, another team comes along and wins the Cup with a different style. There is no blueprint.

I will certainly concede that you can't stereotype anything in life let alone a Stanley Cup team.  I have just noticed that there have been some similarities between Cup winners since the lock out.

Some areas were exceptional which covered other team deficiencies since no one can assemble an awesome team from top to bottom anymore it appears with the Cap.

I was actually Nik seems to either think of lots of stuff in his spare time or is simply a significantly better 'seat of his pants' analyzer than I am I was wondering how he would assemble a Leaf team with what the Leafs currently have. 

Man...I guess I am a real middle of the road guy because I don't think that I could agree that there is a perfect blueprint but I also can't say that I agree that there is no common ingredients  between Cup winners.  :-\
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 14, 2011, 02:19:20 PM
So you would rather dissect a losing team?  Chicago had team similar to Boston as well in chemistry.  Besides Detroit what other team didn't have toughness and still won the Cup?

Nice comment though.  Showed intelligence.

Just because Boston won the Cup their way doesn't mean the Leafs should follow their model. There is more than one path to the Cup. There always has been and there always will be. Every year, people come along and say their team needs to be built like the previous Cup winner, and, just about every year, another team comes along and wins the Cup with a different style. There is no blueprint.

For me, instead of trying to become the Bruins, I would study how the Flyers beat them 2 seasons ago and look for what my team might be missing to be able to do the same thing.

Also, Vancouver could have/should have beaten them but they beat themselves due to goalie and character issues.  Its not like a finesse team couldn't beat the big bad Bruins... just a finesse team with a little bit more gusto.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 02:20:01 PM
Their goalie was amazing and they had Eager who is almost a duplicate of Thornton but 7 years younger.

Niemi wasn't amazing. He had a 2.63 GAA and a .910 SV% in the playoffs. By comparison Osgood, who you say didn't give Detroit decent goaltending, was at 1.55 and .930.

There's more unanimity in cup winners having, say, a top flight #1 centre or brilliant offensive defenseman, neither of which the Leafs have or Bruins had, than there is in a tough guy or a top quality power forward.

But the reality is there's no unanimity in anything.

Geez...I must be a complex (or messed up) guy in some respects because after saying that I must be middle of the road in my perspectives I see that I am extreme in some other perspectives.  I look at Osgood and feel that his numbers reflect his team's play more than him and I can't shake that (kind of like my disdain for Armstrong).

I just hope that the league (and Leafs) are getting away from the goon and staged fights.  The Leafs might survive with only Brown but at 5'11" he really won't intimidate many teams and their shenanigans like Thornton did with Lapierre, Torres, etc.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 14, 2011, 02:21:41 PM
Colby is a wimp and a dirty hitter? Didn't know that...

I still wish the Leafs had landed Talbot this year.

I have been biased against Armstrong since his Pittsburgh days... Letowski hit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U6-d8frhko).  I could show some youtube videos of various hits and bore everyone but whatever. He also turtles which I won't waste time showing.

The guys an agitator, not a fighter but still he's had quite a few fights in his career, not sure I'd label him a 'turtle'. Also, in that role he often finds himself on the edge, sometimes he goes over like a lot of players, don't think he's really earned a 'dirty hitter' title either.

By all accounts his team mates love him and Wilson really likes him too.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 02:27:23 PM

For me, instead of trying to become the Bruins, I would study how the Flyers beat them 2 seasons ago and look for what my team might be missing to be able to do the same thing.

Also, Vancouver could have/should have beaten them but they beat themselves due to goalie and character issues.  Its not like a finesse team couldn't beat the big bad Bruins... just a finesse team with a little bit more gusto.

I know that the Flyers didn't do it with goaltening!!   ;D

A finesse team with gusto is what I see with Detroit.  I was amazed to see how strong their forwards are with and without the puck...

With Vancouver, I was hoping and expecting them to win the cup at first but was quite disappointed with their shenanigans and began to hope the Bruins could beat them.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 14, 2011, 02:34:25 PM
Man...I guess I am a real middle of the road guy because I don't think that I could agree that there is a perfect blueprint but I also can't say that I agree that there is no common ingredients  between Cup winners.  :-\

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's nothing in common between cup winners just that A) nothing is universally common with cup winners and B) the things that seem the most common aren't Milan Lucic and Shawn Thornton types.

There's a certain reality about winning the Cup these days that a ton of it is just about having a team get hot at the right moments and getting a little lucky in their matchups as opposed to strict questions of quality. I don't know how many times post-lockout I've looked at a cup winning team and said with any certainty that they were the best team in the league. Pittsburgh, maybe.

Truth is, these days, all you can really do is put together a pretty good team and roll the dice. And there's lots of ways to put together a pretty good team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 14, 2011, 02:38:21 PM

For me, instead of trying to become the Bruins, I would study how the Flyers beat them 2 seasons ago and look for what my team might be missing to be able to do the same thing.

Also, Vancouver could have/should have beaten them but they beat themselves due to goalie and character issues.  Its not like a finesse team couldn't beat the big bad Bruins... just a finesse team with a little bit more gusto.

I know that the Flyers didn't do it with goaltening!!   ;D

A finesse team with gusto is what I see with Detroit.  I was amazed to see how strong their forwards are with and without the puck...

With Vancouver, I was hoping and expecting them to win the cup at first but was quite disappointed with their shenanigans and began to hope the Bruins could beat them.

Van had all the tools - just lacked the character to finish it off.  I think the Leafs are building towards a similarly built squad, just remains to be seen if they can deliver as much high end talent... but they already have more character in spades compared to the 'Nucks.

Flyers ... I would need to go back and watch a few of those games. I don't remember what they did right, or if Boston just simply collapsed (for sure a big part of it all).  They did get good goaltending though (fluke) - but that ran out in the finals. 

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Boston Leaf on December 14, 2011, 02:47:25 PM
Follow the Bruins path? Trade for Colin Campbells kid
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on December 14, 2011, 03:28:38 PM
There is no question he can be a force in front of the net and therefore "tough." I also considered Sundin "tough" but he didn't go around beating anyone up either. Or, maybe you thought Sundin to be a soft player too or maybe you're somehow just trying to have some fun here. Either way, I'm not sure it advances the conversation along any further.

1) I think Mats Sundin was a soft player
2) I'm just having fun here

or

3) I don't equate Dustin Penner with Mats Sundin

For those of you playing along at home, the answer is 3.

Dammit!!!!  I picked 1 :-(.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 14, 2011, 05:35:43 PM
Man...I guess I am a real middle of the road guy because I don't think that I could agree that there is a perfect blueprint but I also can't say that I agree that there is no common ingredients  between Cup winners.  :-\

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's nothing in common between cup winners just that A) nothing is universally common with cup winners and B) the things that seem the most common aren't Milan Lucic and Shawn Thornton types.

There's a certain reality about winning the Cup these days that a ton of it is just about having a team get hot at the right moments and getting a little lucky in their matchups as opposed to strict questions of quality. I don't know how many times post-lockout I've looked at a cup winning team and said with any certainty that they were the best team in the league. Pittsburgh, maybe.

Truth is, these days, all you can really do is put together a pretty good team and roll the dice. And there's lots of ways to put together a pretty good team.

Well, I guess it boils down to taste as to which team a person would like to see the Leafs resemble. 

I must say that after watching Buffalo's diving, Vancouver's issues and some other good teams who have some dirty players I really found Boston a breath of fresh air.  Boston seemed to play skilled hockey with a hard-nosed but clean edge.

Pulling this thread back to the subject, I feel that Toronto has some decent skilled players as forwards and defense.  I think the Leafs basically need 1 or 2 forwards to add some grit at the forward position.

Besides that I would sit pat at adding players unless obviously it is to make an improvement for that particular position.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: pnjunction on December 14, 2011, 08:19:50 PM
Reported asking price from #Canes for #Staal is #Kulemin, #Kadri and a pick. #NHL
http://twitter.com/NHLInsights

LOL saw this posted somewhere else.  Only puts us about 5.6 mil over the cap  ::)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 14, 2011, 08:33:58 PM
Reported asking price from #Canes for #Staal is #Kulemin, #Kadri and a pick. #NHL
http://twitter.com/NHLInsights

LOL saw this posted somewhere else.  Only puts us about 5.6 mil over the cap  ::)

Sounds like pure BS. Kulemin, Kadri and a pick is the new Antropov, Colaiacovo and a 1st.

Also, that's a lot of give up for the hope that Staal can turn his game around. He was absolutely invisible last night, and has been that way pretty much all season.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 14, 2011, 08:47:01 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie: Getting lots of questions about trade rumors of Eric Staal to Toronto Maple Leafs. Here's reaction to that from Carolina GM Jim Rutherford:

TSNBobMcKenzie: "I have no interest whatsoever in trading Eric Staal or Cam Ward. That's not going to happen." -- Jim Rutherford
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 14, 2011, 08:52:24 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie: Getting lots of questions about trade rumors of Eric Staal to Toronto Maple Leafs. Here's reaction to that from Carolina GM Jim Rutherford:

TSNBobMcKenzie: "I have no interest whatsoever in trading Eric Staal or Cam Ward. That's not going to happen." -- Jim Rutherford

Clearly he's lying.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 14, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie: Getting lots of questions about trade rumors of Eric Staal to Toronto Maple Leafs. Here's reaction to that from Carolina GM Jim Rutherford:

TSNBobMcKenzie: "I have no interest whatsoever in trading Eric Staal or Cam Ward. That's not going to happen." -- Jim Rutherford

Clearly he's lying.

Not that I think it's going to happen, but, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a GM made that sort of comment then turned around and moved that player a few weeks later.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 14, 2011, 09:06:01 PM
Reported asking price from #Canes for #Staal is #Kulemin, #Kadri and a pick. #NHL
http://twitter.com/NHLInsights

LOL saw this posted somewhere else.  Only puts us about 5.6 mil over the cap  ::)

$3.7 mil by my calculation.

Rutherford would probably want a center back (assuming he accepts the Leafs notion Kadri is not a center). So some cap cash could be saved there

or

One of the following centers: Bozak, Lombardi, Connolly or Grabbo would have to go. And you'd get an asset back for one those guys though it would vary with the player.

I'm trying to figure out why Rutherford would do that deal. Rutherford did say just before the Canes game that Staal, Skinner, Ward and his two young D are his core for the future.

If Burke doesn't think he can sign Getzlaf in 2013 as a UFA that costs no assets, I'd be very tempted. I know Staal isn't playing well right now but I think a change of scenery to a lineup like the Leafs is likely to be good for him. He's no Mats Sundin but he is a #1 center and they're very hard to come by.

EDIT: Just saw this post:
TSNBobMcKenzie: Getting lots of questions about trade rumors of Eric Staal to Toronto Maple Leafs. Here's reaction to that from Carolina GM Jim Rutherford:

TSNBobMcKenzie: "I have no interest whatsoever in trading Eric Staal or Cam Ward. That's not going to happen." -- Jim Rutherford

Makes a ton of sense to me. I wouldn't do it if I were Rutherford either unless someone got really silly. If Kulemin, Kadri & a 1st is silly, I'd lean that it's silly in the respect that it isn't enough.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 14, 2011, 09:06:43 PM
TSNBobMcKenzie: Getting lots of questions about trade rumors of Eric Staal to Toronto Maple Leafs. Here's reaction to that from Carolina GM Jim Rutherford:

TSNBobMcKenzie: "I have no interest whatsoever in trading Eric Staal or Cam Ward. That's not going to happen." -- Jim Rutherford

Clearly he's lying.

Not that I think it's going to happen, but, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a GM made that sort of comment then turned around and moved that player a few weeks later.

Kiss of death?
Also - you really would hesitate to make that proposed deal?!? Staal for spare parts and what probably wouldn't be a high draft pick anyways...I'd rather have Staal / Kessel over anything Kulemin is going to bring to the table - he's really the only asset you're losing here.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 14, 2011, 09:08:37 PM
Also - you really would hesitate to make that proposed deal?!? Staal for spare parts and what probably wouldn't be a high draft pick anyways...I'd rather have Staal / Kessel over anything Kulemin is going to bring to the table - he's really the only asset you're losing here.

While it's very cute that you don't count Kadri as an asset the issue here is really more with Staal and the cap than anything.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 14, 2011, 09:14:04 PM
Also - you really would hesitate to make that proposed deal?!? Staal for spare parts and what probably wouldn't be a high draft pick anyways...I'd rather have Staal / Kessel over anything Kulemin is going to bring to the table - he's really the only asset you're losing here.

If Staal didn't come with an $8.25M cap hit, it might be different, but, that's a big chunk of the team's ability to have depth and improve other areas of need. And, truthfully, I'm not sure adding Staal really helps Kessel's game all that much - assuming Kessel can keep up the level of play we've seen for the past 2 months - and that's assuming Staal can get his game back in order any time soon. I just feel that, going forward, Kulemin and Kadri could provide more for the team's success as secondary scoring than Staal as a 1st line centre. I like Staal and all, but, he's not the guy the Leafs really need - and, definitely not at that price, both in terms of assets and cap hit.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 14, 2011, 09:15:18 PM
Also - you really would hesitate to make that proposed deal?!? Staal for spare parts and what probably wouldn't be a high draft pick anyways...I'd rather have Staal / Kessel over anything Kulemin is going to bring to the table - he's really the only asset you're losing here.

While it's very cute that you don't count Kadri as an asset the issue here is really more with Staal and the cap than anything.

Obviously I'm assuming we're all ignoring the fact that this Eklund wannabe can't even get rule #1 of making up trade rumors on the internet right.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 14, 2011, 09:17:09 PM
Also - you really would hesitate to make that proposed deal?!? Staal for spare parts and what probably wouldn't be a high draft pick anyways...I'd rather have Staal / Kessel over anything Kulemin is going to bring to the table - he's really the only asset you're losing here.

If Staal didn't come with an $8.25M cap hit, it might be different, but, that's a big chunk of the team's ability to have depth and improve other areas of need. And, truthfully, I'm not sure adding Staal really helps Kessel's game all that much - assuming Kessel can keep up the level of play we've seen for the past 2 months - and that's assuming Staal can get his game back in order any time soon. I just feel that, going forward, Kulemin and Kadri could provide more for the team's success as secondary scoring than Staal as a 1st line centre. I like Staal and all, but, he's not the guy the Leafs really need - and, definitely not at that price, both in terms of assets and cap hit.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 14, 2011, 09:41:02 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/LeafsNews
LeafsNews Maple Leafs News
Brophy was on "powerplay tonight" & said the same thing about Staal to #leafs as Bill Watters. Watters still tight w Fletcher. #matlockson
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply

LeafsNews Maple Leafs News
Make of this what you will: "Brophy - Burke turned dn a deal 4 Eric Staal 2day due 2 Burke's own self imposed holiday trade freeze." #leafs
1 hour ago

Did anyone see Mike Brophy on "Powerplay Tonight"?

(don't trust or know the tweeter)

Brophy isn't the second coming of Eklund.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 14, 2011, 09:42:37 PM
Brophy said Burke turned down a deal for Staal?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on December 14, 2011, 09:46:10 PM
I like Staal and all, but, he's not the guy the Leafs really need - and, definitely not at that price, both in terms of assets and cap hit.

To me, it's almost entirely the cap hit. I don't care what a guy has done in the past, if he's making more than 8 million per cap wise and he's legitimately played himself into a position to be traded I almost feel like you'd have to get something just to take him for free or, at the very least, be able to acquire him for bad contracts in return. I know he's been a good playere and is likely to be again in the future but at that kind of money it's just such a risk if it doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on December 14, 2011, 09:53:11 PM
Rutherford is not a BSer.  I don't think he's trading Staal.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on December 14, 2011, 10:51:26 PM
Rutherford is not a BSer.  I don't think he's trading Staal.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 14, 2011, 10:55:05 PM
Rutherford is not a BSer.  I don't think he's trading Staal.

Agreed.

I second that. Also, I understand that Burke is a man of principle but I have my doubts he would turn down a deal of this magnitude (not necessarily this rumoured deal) with 11 days still remaining before Christmas.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: stingray on December 14, 2011, 10:59:33 PM
Also - you really would hesitate to make that proposed deal?!? Staal for spare parts and what probably wouldn't be a high draft pick anyways...I'd rather have Staal / Kessel over anything Kulemin is going to bring to the table - he's really the only asset you're losing here.

If Staal didn't come with an $8.25M cap hit, it might be different, but, that's a big chunk of the team's ability to have depth and improve other areas of need. And, truthfully, I'm not sure adding Staal really helps Kessel's game all that much - assuming Kessel can keep up the level of play we've seen for the past 2 months - and that's assuming Staal can get his game back in order any time soon. I just feel that, going forward, Kulemin and Kadri could provide more for the team's success as secondary scoring than Staal as a 1st line centre. I like Staal and all, but, he's not the guy the Leafs really need - and, definitely not at that price, both in terms of assets and cap hit.

Fair enough.
I agree with this post. 8.2 mil for a 70-75 pt. player is a bit steep. For those suggesting he is only in a slump, better look again. This year would mark the 4th year he has not cracked those totals.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 14, 2011, 11:23:54 PM
Rutherford is not a BSer.  I don't think he's trading Staal.

Agreed.

I second that. Also, I understand that Burke is a man of principle but I have my doubts he would turn down a deal of this magnitude (not necessarily this rumoured deal) with 11 days still remaining before Christmas.

I agree about Rutherford as well. But even he qualified in his radio interview - nobody is untouchable depending on the price.

As for Burke and Xmas, Burke would just find a salary to eat for the 11 extra days to help top Rutherford up for the dough. I don't think that would present a big problem for Burke and he wouldn't break his word. Rutherford wouldn't be trading Staal and care deeply where he finishes in the standings this year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on December 14, 2011, 11:32:02 PM
I like Staal and all, but, he's not the guy the Leafs really need - and, definitely not at that price, both in terms of assets and cap hit.

To me, it's almost entirely the cap hit. I don't care what a guy has done in the past, if he's making more than 8 million per cap wise and he's legitimately played himself into a position to be traded I almost feel like you'd have to get something just to take him for free or, at the very least, be able to acquire him for bad contracts in return. I know he's been a good playere and is likely to be again in the future but at that kind of money it's just such a risk if it doesn't work out.

It's the Lecavalier thing...or to a lesser extent the Komisarek thing.  Neither player is living up to their contracts and so paying for their value on top of taking a cap loss just doesn't add up. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: crazyperfectdevil on December 14, 2011, 11:34:19 PM
i find it hard to believe that burke is really pressing for anything right now ...not that the leafs are perfect by any stretch ...i like the idea of keeping kadri and seeing what happens
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 14, 2011, 11:44:18 PM
I agree with this post. 8.2 mil for a 70-75 pt. player is a bit steep. For those suggesting he is only in a slump, better look again. This year would mark the 4th year he has not cracked those totals.

Staal has never been below 70 pts for a season. He was 11th overall in scoring last season with 76 points and that was 4th among NHL centers.

I had a look at media on his slump. The reports about him were pretty good including from Maurice. He was working hard, playing two ways, etc.

Looked at his stats. The only significant fall off is in PP scoring - not even strength where one has to work a little more for what they get. Pitkanen has been concussed and Kaberle was not in good shape so that hurt their PP back end. And the other thing that's off related to his scoring is his shooting percentage 6.x% - like he's snake bit. He's still getting close to his typical rates of shots, takeaways, hits, blocks, etc.

Traditionally, like his brother and often with other tall, lanky centers, he hasn't ever been that good on faceoffs. This year, he's slightly over 50%.

His injury history is very good. - missed 13 games in 6+ seasons (2 games for personal reasons). No concussions or serious injuries noted. He's only 27 years old - likely in his prime probably for 4-5 more years

I also looked at the team salary rankings. Aside from '07-08, the other five years, the Canes have been in the bottom third of the league in salaries or lower - close to a bottom feeder/cap floor team. Rutheford is a good GM so he's often been able to flip them into a slightly below average team nibbling for a playoff berth. But it's not like he's playing with a really talented roster like a number of the top centers in the league - which has to hurt his scoring some. When he did in their Cup run, he scored 100 pts.

If he wasn't an ideal fit for Kessel and I'm not sure that's the case, he could drive a second scoring line - kind of a 1A 1B top six.

I don't see any obvious issue other than a slumping center on a slumping team. If I have no shot at Getzlaf, I'd probably do that deal. Good centers are so hard to come by.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Red Polar Bear on December 15, 2011, 01:22:11 AM
I don't see any obvious issue other than a slumping center on a slumping team. If I have no shot at Getzlaf, I'd probably do that deal. Good centers are so hard to come by.

See, to me, Getzlaf isn't even a concern about this.

You do the deal now, then in a year and a half if Getzlaf is available *and* he wants to come to Toronto *and* you prefer how Getzlaf is playing at that time to how Staal is playing, you get Getzlaf and then move Staal for whatever pieces you need at the time.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: lamajama on December 15, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
$8.2 mil is a huge chuck of change against the Cap.

Are we "sure" that adding Staal as Phil's center is going to turn Phil into
a 50 goal scorer? Because he's heading to a 40 goal season with Bozak
as his center right now. Is the incremental improvement worth it? I mean
the Leafs signed Connolly to be with Phil and that has not been either
required or seriously attempted. I know that the Leafs would *improve* with a superstar calibre centre but IMO we need a Cam Ward first.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 16, 2011, 09:43:03 AM
I think the Leafs would add Staal because the team still needs a 100% legit 1st line centre with all the attributes one needs to have to do that job, who is still young and is star level caliber.  Its not really directly related to Kessel at all.  For the Leafs to do any true damage in the east, they need another top end game breaking forward.  Staal is one of those, has proven it already, and is still really, really young.

Yes he's struggling, but his history suggests this year is an anomaly, and you don't get a chance to acquire guys like this unless they either have an off year, or some other crazy circumstance.

If there is even a remote chance he's available, if you are Burke I think you go for it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 16, 2011, 10:08:37 AM

If there is even a remote chance he's available, if you are Burke I think you go for it.

Absolutely. Which is why I'm raising the BS flag to this rumour. I mean, Burke made forced Grabo to switch his jersey number from 84 to 54 but moved off his principles when he traded for Kessel. If there was a deal Burke liked for Staal just two days into Burke's self proposed trade freeze, I'm struggling with why he wouldn't move off his principles again.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 16, 2011, 10:21:36 AM

If there is even a remote chance he's available, if you are Burke I think you go for it.

Absolutely. Which is why I'm raising the BS flag to this rumour. I mean, Burke made forced Grabo to switch his jersey number from 84 to 54 but moved off his principles when he traded for Kessel. If there was a deal Burke liked for Staal just two days into Burke's self proposed trade freeze, I'm struggling with why he wouldn't move off his principles again.

I don't really think the freeze thing changes things much. If there is truly a deal (which I have 98% doubt given the senile source) then it can still happen after the freeze, which is really only about a week longer. 

I don't think bending on number choices is the same as a freeze that Burke strongly feels is to treat his players at a higher level this time of year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 16, 2011, 10:24:47 AM

If there is even a remote chance he's available, if you are Burke I think you go for it.

Absolutely. Which is why I'm raising the BS flag to this rumour. I mean, Burke made forced Grabo to switch his jersey number from 84 to 54 but moved off his principles when he traded for Kessel. If there was a deal Burke liked for Staal just two days into Burke's self proposed trade freeze, I'm struggling with why he wouldn't move off his principles again.

I don't really think the freeze thing changes things much. If there is truly a deal (which I have 98% doubt given the senile source) then it can still happen after the freeze, which is really only about a week longer. 

I don't think bending on number choices is the same as a freeze that Burke strongly feels is to treat his players at a higher level this time of year.

Well, I'd agree with you re. the freeze if he was well into it... but he wasn't. - Just me.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 16, 2011, 10:28:12 AM

If there is even a remote chance he's available, if you are Burke I think you go for it.

Absolutely. Which is why I'm raising the BS flag to this rumour. I mean, Burke made forced Grabo to switch his jersey number from 84 to 54 but moved off his principles when he traded for Kessel. If there was a deal Burke liked for Staal just two days into Burke's self proposed trade freeze, I'm struggling with why he wouldn't move off his principles again.

I don't really think the freeze thing changes things much. If there is truly a deal (which I have 98% doubt given the senile source) then it can still happen after the freeze, which is really only about a week longer. 

I don't think bending on number choices is the same as a freeze that Burke strongly feels is to treat his players at a higher level this time of year.

Well, I'd agree with you re. the freeze if he was well into it... but he wasn't. - Just me.

He wasn't? What is the date he starts it again? the 10th?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 16, 2011, 10:31:19 AM

If there is even a remote chance he's available, if you are Burke I think you go for it.

Absolutely. Which is why I'm raising the BS flag to this rumour. I mean, Burke made forced Grabo to switch his jersey number from 84 to 54 but moved off his principles when he traded for Kessel. If there was a deal Burke liked for Staal just two days into Burke's self proposed trade freeze, I'm struggling with why he wouldn't move off his principles again.

I don't really think the freeze thing changes things much. If there is truly a deal (which I have 98% doubt given the senile source) then it can still happen after the freeze, which is really only about a week longer. 

I don't think bending on number choices is the same as a freeze that Burke strongly feels is to treat his players at a higher level this time of year.

Well, I'd agree with you re. the freeze if he was well into it... but he wasn't. - Just me.

He wasn't? What is the date he starts it again? the 10th?

Unless I've got the timing wrong, I think the rumour was Rutherford called just two days into it?- Whenever is started. Though it seems kind of funny to be discussing the accuracy of pop poo.  :-\
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 16, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
Unless I've got the timing wrong, I think the rumour was Rutherford called just two days into it?- Whenever is started. Though it seems kind of funny to be discussing the accuracy of pop poo.  :-\

So the freeze was on already, Burke held to his word of the freeze... got it.

Burke thinks its a big deal to let players know around Christmas they won't be moved.  He held to that.  I don't see that being a negative, even on a potential deal here.

Anyway I think we are discussing all this over an invented rumor by a guy desperate for some eyes and ears on him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on December 16, 2011, 10:58:05 AM
TSNBobMcKenzie: Getting lots of questions about trade rumors of Eric Staal to Toronto Maple Leafs. Here's reaction to that from Carolina GM Jim Rutherford:

TSNBobMcKenzie: "I have no interest whatsoever in trading Eric Staal or Cam Ward. That's not going to happen." -- Jim Rutherford

Phanuef wasn't available either.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 16, 2011, 11:45:56 AM
According to CBC's Eliotte Friedman, Kadri was being "scouted hard" as rumours pointed to Blue Jackets GM Scott Howson taking in a Marlies game at the ACC not too long ago.  Blue Jackets are reportedly willing to trade forward Derek Brassard because they cannot afford his contract (3.2M cap hit).

Burke would have go clear "sufficient cap space" before anything is done.  And, oh yeah, the trade freeze.

Source:  THN
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 16, 2011, 11:47:29 AM
Brassard for Kadri? Yeah, no thanks.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 16, 2011, 11:50:35 AM
According to CBC's Eliotte Friedman, Kadri was being "scouted hard" as rumours pointed to Blue Jackets GM Scott Howson taking in a Marlies game at the ACC not too long ago.  Blue Jackets are reportedly willing to trade forward Derek Brassard because they cannot afford his contract (3.2M).

Burke would have go clear "sufficient cap space" before anything is done.  And, oh yeah, the trade freeze.

Source:  THN

Gee... Columbus is willing to trade Brassard?!?!?!?

Kadri is obliterating the AHL right now.  No wonder he's being scouted hard.

$3.2 mil Brassard, flunking the NHL.

for

$200K AHL salary two-way Kadri, destroying American Hockey League.

I not add know how this up.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 16, 2011, 12:13:55 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=382882
Hey Darren, have you noticed how quietly Brian Burke's self-imposed '10 days before the holiday roster freeze' roster freeze went by this season? Do you think he's happy with the lineup he has so far?

Joel Lott,
North York, ON

A: Joel, Burke's deadline did slip by with little or no attention. A few managers shared their amusement when the memo from the Leafs dropped into their in-box, while others actually tried to coax Burke to make a deal just prior to the holiday freeze. On Thursday, I interupted Burke and his Leafs management team's pheasant hunt (not kidding) to push him on a tip he was presented with legit trade offers prior to last Friday's freeze. He acknowledged there were a few teams who made strong offers for defencemen Keith Aulie and Cody Franson. Burke described them as "good" offers, but he told the inquiring general managers he wasn't interested in trading either defenceman. It could simply be a timing thing as Burke has made it clear he likes his team and believes the reconstruction phase is over and basic "fine tuning" is all that is needed now. Franson may become a piece Toronto is willing to peddle in the New Year, or at the deadline, however it's unlikely Aulie will become available unless the Leafs are offered a considerable upgrade, either on defence, or a big body forward that is NHL proven to be a solid top six.

fyi
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on December 16, 2011, 01:28:46 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=382882
Hey Darren, have you noticed how quietly Brian Burke's self-imposed '10 days before the holiday roster freeze' roster freeze went by this season? Do you think he's happy with the lineup he has so far?

Joel Lott,
North York, ON

A: Joel, Burke's deadline did slip by with little or no attention. A few managers shared their amusement when the memo from the Leafs dropped into their in-box, while others actually tried to coax Burke to make a deal just prior to the holiday freeze. On Thursday, I interupted Burke and his Leafs management team's pheasant hunt (not kidding) to push him on a tip he was presented with legit trade offers prior to last Friday's freeze. He acknowledged there were a few teams who made strong offers for defencemen Keith Aulie and Cody Franson. Burke described them as "good" offers, but he told the inquiring general managers he wasn't interested in trading either defenceman. It could simply be a timing thing as Burke has made it clear he likes his team and believes the reconstruction phase is over and basic "fine tuning" is all that is needed now. Franson may become a piece Toronto is willing to peddle in the New Year, or at the deadline, however it's unlikely Aulie will become available unless the Leafs are offered a considerable upgrade, either on defence, or a big body forward that is NHL proven to be a solid top six.

fyi

Like the sound of that.  Burkie not looking to move Aulie unless he considers it a "considerable upgrade".  We are in good hands.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on December 16, 2011, 08:19:52 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=382882
Hey Darren, have you noticed how quietly Brian Burke's self-imposed '10 days before the holiday roster freeze' roster freeze went by this season? Do you think he's happy with the lineup he has so far?

Joel Lott,
North York, ON

A: Joel, Burke's deadline did slip by with little or no attention. A few managers shared their amusement when the memo from the Leafs dropped into their in-box, while others actually tried to coax Burke to make a deal just prior to the holiday freeze. On Thursday, I interupted Burke and his Leafs management team's pheasant hunt (not kidding) to push him on a tip he was presented with legit trade offers prior to last Friday's freeze. He acknowledged there were a few teams who made strong offers for defencemen Keith Aulie and Cody Franson. Burke described them as "good" offers, but he told the inquiring general managers he wasn't interested in trading either defenceman. It could simply be a timing thing as Burke has made it clear he likes his team and believes the reconstruction phase is over and basic "fine tuning" is all that is needed now. Franson may become a piece Toronto is willing to peddle in the New Year, or at the deadline, however it's unlikely Aulie will become available unless the Leafs are offered a considerable upgrade, either on defence, or a big body forward that is NHL proven to be a solid top six.

fyi

Like the sound of that.  Burkie not looking to move Aulie unless he considers it a "considerable upgrade".  We are in good hands.

He also said in the Star piece with Vinay Menon that he doesn't like him sitting in the pressbox the last few games and is going to change that, so maybe we'll see him in the lineup or back to the AHL soon.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 17, 2011, 05:38:42 PM

For me, instead of trying to become the Bruins, I would study how the Flyers beat them 2 seasons ago and look for what my team might be missing to be able to do the same thing.

Also, Vancouver could have/should have beaten them but they beat themselves due to goalie and character issues.  Its not like a finesse team couldn't beat the big bad Bruins... just a finesse team with a little bit more gusto.

Wow, Flyers didn't beat them on the score board or in the alleys today.  6-0.  Ouch!!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on December 17, 2011, 07:08:21 PM
In the back of my mind, a voice says, "What are you crazy?"  :o :-\ 

But could a guy like Filatov be straightened out someone like Grabovski? 

Filatov is a complete head-case.  Could the best case scenario be a productive Filatov/Grabs/Kulemin line? 
The worst he's a complete bust.  Either way, the acquisition price can't be high.  I'd trade Jeff Finger for him!  ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 17, 2011, 11:20:59 PM
Filatov is a complete head-case. 

I really don't think that's a fair statement. His game hasn't translated to the NHL yet, but I do think he partly shares that blame with the organization/coaches he's played with. I don't think it has much to do with his attitude though.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on December 17, 2011, 11:55:27 PM
I think if I were Burke, I would be wondering if there was any possible way I could get colorado's first rounder from a struggling Washington.  Perhaps by trading grabbo? Kulemin? Liles?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 18, 2011, 06:50:43 AM
I think if I were Burke, I would be wondering if there was any possible way I could get colorado's first rounder from a struggling Washington.  Perhaps by trading grabbo? Kulemin? Liles?

The same Washington we're competing against in a playoff race?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on December 18, 2011, 08:58:48 AM
Filatov is a complete head-case. 

I really don't think that's a fair statement. His game hasn't translated to the NHL yet, but I do think he partly shares that blame with the organization/coaches he's played with. I don't think it has much to do with his attitude though.
Everything I've read is he thinks he's god's gift to hockey, that he has no weakness in his game, deserves more money, etc.  Sounds like he might be uncoachable.   Much like Grabovski, who seemed like an offensive talented punk who grew up, and to me seems like an honest hard-worker, who doesn't whine, and who now seems to take pride in his defensive game.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on December 18, 2011, 10:34:01 AM
Filatov is a complete head-case. 

I really don't think that's a fair statement. His game hasn't translated to the NHL yet, but I do think he partly shares that blame with the organization/coaches he's played with. I don't think it has much to do with his attitude though.
Everything I've read is he thinks he's god's gift to hockey, that he has no weakness in his game, deserves more money, etc.  Sounds like he might be uncoachable.   

His last interview I've read he said:

Quote
Maybe MacLean was prejudiced?

"No, there was a good relationship with both the coach and the general manager. I can't complain. I can only blame myself."

...

"If I can't make it then there are reasons. Objective or not. I need to work a lot. I need to get better. I hope CSKA will help me with that."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Chatting-with-Nikita-Filatov-about-leaving-for-K?urn=nhl-wp19772#remaining-content

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on December 18, 2011, 03:34:15 PM
Filatov is a complete head-case. 

I really don't think that's a fair statement. His game hasn't translated to the NHL yet, but I do think he partly shares that blame with the organization/coaches he's played with. I don't think it has much to do with his attitude though.
Everything I've read is he thinks he's god's gift to hockey, that he has no weakness in his game, deserves more money, etc.  Sounds like he might be uncoachable.   

His last interview I've read he said:

Quote
Maybe MacLean was prejudiced?

"No, there was a good relationship with both the coach and the general manager. I can't complain. I can only blame myself."

...

"If I can't make it then there are reasons. Objective or not. I need to work a lot. I need to get better. I hope CSKA will help me with that."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Chatting-with-Nikita-Filatov-about-leaving-for-K?urn=nhl-wp19772#remaining-content

Also, on the head case comment, this is a 21 year old that needs to support his extended family back in Russia.  He makes $50000 if he is in the AHL, or he makes a $1000000 while in the KHL.  You can say he is greedy, but if you had to support your mom and dad, as well as your siblings, which choice would you make?
 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: cw on December 18, 2011, 04:13:16 PM
Filatov is a complete head-case. 

I really don't think that's a fair statement. His game hasn't translated to the NHL yet, but I do think he partly shares that blame with the organization/coaches he's played with. I don't think it has much to do with his attitude though.
Everything I've read is he thinks he's god's gift to hockey, that he has no weakness in his game, deserves more money, etc.  Sounds like he might be uncoachable.   

His last interview I've read he said:

Quote
Maybe MacLean was prejudiced?

"No, there was a good relationship with both the coach and the general manager. I can't complain. I can only blame myself."

...

"If I can't make it then there are reasons. Objective or not. I need to work a lot. I need to get better. I hope CSKA will help me with that."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Chatting-with-Nikita-Filatov-about-leaving-for-K?urn=nhl-wp19772#remaining-content

Also, on the head case comment, this is a 21 year old that needs to support his extended family back in Russia.  He makes $50000 if he is in the AHL, or he makes a $1000000 while in the KHL.  You can say he is greedy, but if you had to support your mom and dad, as well as your siblings, which choice would you make?
 

The take home pay divide is even greater when you consider KHL players pay very little in taxes.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/12/filatov-gamble-not-over-yet-for-sens
“He wants a chance to come back to the National Hockey League at some point (and go to Russia) rather than play in the minors,” said Murray. “I totally understand that’s a financial thing for him and his family. That’s why I’m letting it happen."

Both parties seem to be happy with the arrangement so I don't see a foul here.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 18, 2011, 07:56:41 PM
I think if I were Burke, I would be wondering if there was any possible way I could get colorado's first rounder from a struggling Washington.  Perhaps by trading grabbo? Kulemin? Liles?

The same Washington we're competing against in a playoff race?

Since we got Liles from them for a 2nd IIRC I am not sure if they would try to get him back for a 1st...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 18, 2011, 08:18:40 PM
I think if I were Burke, I would be wondering if there was any possible way I could get colorado's first rounder from a struggling Washington.  Perhaps by trading grabbo? Kulemin? Liles?

The same Washington we're competing against in a playoff race?

Since we got Liles from them for a 2nd IIRC I am not sure if they would try to get him back for a 1st...

Uh, we got Liles from Colorado for a 2nd. The post suggested trading Kulemin/Liles/Grabbo to Washington for Colorado's 1st. Not sure where Colorado is directly accountable or a decision maker.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 18, 2011, 08:46:03 PM
Uh, we got Liles from Colorado for a 2nd. The post suggested trading Kulemin/Liles/Grabbo to Washington for Colorado's 1st. Not sure where Colorado is directly accountable or a decision maker.

Well, Washington is in possession of Colorado's 1st round pick . . . though, unless they turn it around soon, they're best served hanging on to both picks and potentially having 2 picks in the top 10.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on December 18, 2011, 09:34:50 PM
I think if I were Burke, I would be wondering if there was any possible way I could get colorado's first rounder from a struggling Washington.  Perhaps by trading grabbo? Kulemin? Liles?

The same Washington we're competing against in a playoff race?

Well, I'm depressed again about our chances.  Washington "obviously" has the talent to go on a big run and crush us.  They've done it before recently; we havent come close.  We might as well have something to look forward to at the end of the year by selling off our older assets one more time.  If we sell off a forward like grabbo who is a UFA, Colborne and/or Kadri could come up to take his place.  And ideally, we slot in Shea Weber for Liles/grabbo's UFA dollars....plus we have the picks for future cost control.

It doesn't take much for me to go in to give up mode.  It has been so long ....
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 18, 2011, 10:01:29 PM
Uh, we got Liles from Colorado for a 2nd. The post suggested trading Kulemin/Liles/Grabbo to Washington for Colorado's 1st. Not sure where Colorado is directly accountable or a decision maker.

Well, Washington is in possession of Colorado's 1st round pick . . . though, unless they turn it around soon, they're best served hanging on to both picks and potentially having 2 picks in the top 10.

No I know, but the original post refers to "they" as if it's Washington. We got Liles from Colorado for a 2nd, and I'd be more than surprised if Wash would move Colorado's 1st for as little as Liles.

I may be a little crazy, though.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on December 18, 2011, 11:50:11 PM
Uh, we got Liles from Colorado for a 2nd. The post suggested trading Kulemin/Liles/Grabbo to Washington for Colorado's 1st. Not sure where Colorado is directly accountable or a decision maker.

Well, Washington is in possession of Colorado's 1st round pick . . . though, unless they turn it around soon, they're best served hanging on to both picks and potentially having 2 picks in the top 10.

No I know, but the original post refers to "they" as if it's Washington. We got Liles from Colorado for a 2nd, and I'd be more than surprised if Wash would move Colorado's 1st for as little as Liles.

I may be a little crazy, though.

Actually you got it right in reading my post...I was looking at it all completely backwards.  I was thinking that Colorado has Washington's 1st and the Leafs were going to trade Liles back to Colorado for it and try to knock Washington further down the standings to make the pick even better.

Instead we are giving Washington a nice player for the Colorado pick helping Washington make the playoffs and probably bump us out.

BTW, I would love to see Liles traded this year for some ones 1st pick.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 19, 2011, 07:26:25 AM

BTW, I would love to see Liles traded this year for some ones 1st pick.

Unless it's a real good one, I'm not interested in that. Liles is a bird in the hand and having watched him play, he's a keeper I think. Who knows, maybe he's got some outrageous contract demands but I (for one) would like to retain this player. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 23, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
Sorry.... why are we moving Liles?  Did we miss the playoffs?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 23, 2011, 01:30:18 PM
Sorry.... why are we moving Liles?  Did we miss the playoffs?

More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 23, 2011, 01:34:11 PM

More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

Like I said, he's not worth any old 1st rounder.   :P
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 23, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
Sorry.... why are we moving Liles?  Did we miss the playoffs?

More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

I don't think a late 1st like the Leafs received for Kaberle is out of the question, though I don't think he's getting moved anyways.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on December 23, 2011, 01:39:32 PM
Liles went for a second and is having a better year, not a stretch to suggest he is worth a late 1st for a team in win now mode and a hole on the PP.

Not that I am saying trade him, but if we come to that bridge come deadline time and don't have a shot ourselves.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 23, 2011, 01:41:03 PM
Sorry.... why are we moving Liles?  Did we miss the playoffs?

More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

I don't think a late 1st like the Leafs received for Kaberle is out of the question, though I don't think he's getting moved anyways.

We got Colborne and a 1st for Kaberle who was also an upcoming UFA. Suggest a good prospect and a 1st rounder for Liles, I listen but as I said, I'm not inclined to move him at the moment. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on December 23, 2011, 02:44:55 PM
Sorry.... why are we moving Liles?  Did we miss the playoffs?

More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

I don't think a late 1st like the Leafs received for Kaberle is out of the question, though I don't think he's getting moved anyways.

We got Colborne and a 1st for Kaberle who was also an upcoming UFA. Suggest a good prospect and a 1st rounder for Liles, I listen but as I said, I'm not inclined to move him at the moment.

Yeah I know what the return was. I'd be very surprised to see the same return for Liles (ie a 1st + a Colborne type prospect).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on December 23, 2011, 02:53:29 PM
Sorry.... why are we moving Liles?  Did we miss the playoffs?

More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

I don't think a late 1st like the Leafs received for Kaberle is out of the question, though I don't think he's getting moved anyways.

We got Colborne and a 1st for Kaberle who was also an upcoming UFA. Suggest a good prospect and a 1st rounder for Liles, I listen but as I said, I'm not inclined to move him at the moment.

Yeah I know what the return was. I'd be very surprised to see the same return for Liles (ie a 1st + a Colborne type prospect).

So would I. He's probably not going to fetch a 1st AND an excellent prospect like Colborne but he'd fetch at least ONE of those in my mind. Anyway, unless we're out of the playoffs, I'd rather be discussing his extension rather than his return.   
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 23, 2011, 02:57:15 PM
More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

Worth a 2nd in the summer, having a good year and traditionally inflated trade values at the trade deadline. Starting price (if the Leafs are looking to move him, which seems unlikely) would be a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on December 23, 2011, 03:15:18 PM
More importantly...how / why is Liles worth a 1st rounder all of a sudden?

Worth a 2nd in the summer, having a good year and traditionally inflated trade values at the trade deadline. Starting price (if the Leafs are looking to move him, which seems unlikely) would be a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect.

Boston will want a puck moving defenseman again like last year. Who's their current #1 prospect?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 23, 2011, 03:29:05 PM
Wasn't the 2nd that was sent to Colorado for Liles Boston's? And he's in a contract year? To me it doesn't add up but if Burke can get a 1st for him all the power to him. The going rate for a pending UFA defenseman without a lot of playoff experience at the deadline last year was a late round second pick - if the positions were reversed I don't think many of you would be too happy if Burke traded away a 1st for him.

Like Flake said it is kind of a moot point to talk about trading him but I guess if someone is offering Burke a 1st for him he'd have to do his due diligence and at least entertain the idea.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: leafplasma on December 23, 2011, 04:31:32 PM
The more I see of Liles, the more I like, he really is an upgrade on Kabs with a bit of grit even.  Kudos to the whole Plus Liles, Colborne, 1st round pick and Minus Kabs and 2nd round pick cumulative scenario.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 23, 2011, 05:10:05 PM
Wasn't the 2nd that was sent to Colorado for Liles Boston's? And he's in a contract year? To me it doesn't add up but if Burke can get a 1st for him all the power to him. The going rate for a pending UFA defenseman without a lot of playoff experience at the deadline last year was a late round second pick - if the positions were reversed I don't think many of you would be too happy if Burke traded away a 1st for him.

Like Flake said it is kind of a moot point to talk about trading him but I guess if someone is offering Burke a 1st for him he'd have to do his due diligence and at least entertain the idea.

None of the defencemen that were traded for 2nd round picks at the last deadline who weren't on the verge of retirement had a track record equivalent to what Liles has done. Not a single one had cracked the 40 point mark in a season when they were moved - Liles has 3 40+ point seasons on resume. Not a single one had more than two 30+ points season - Liles has a career low of 31 points. Not a single one of them is a good comparable for Liles. THe best comparable that was dealt at the last trade deadline was Kaberle, and, well, we all know what he was moved for. What we'd be happy with is pretty much irrelevant. He's value, if he's on the market, is a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect. If anything, the "going rate" you bring up only serves to enforce that point even more.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on December 23, 2011, 05:14:37 PM
Wasn't the 2nd that was sent to Colorado for Liles Boston's? And he's in a contract year? To me it doesn't add up but if Burke can get a 1st for him all the power to him. The going rate for a pending UFA defenseman without a lot of playoff experience at the deadline last year was a late round second pick - if the positions were reversed I don't think many of you would be too happy if Burke traded away a 1st for him.

Like Flake said it is kind of a moot point to talk about trading him but I guess if someone is offering Burke a 1st for him he'd have to do his due diligence and at least entertain the idea.

None of the defencemen that were traded for 2nd round picks at the last deadline who weren't on the verge of retirement had a track record equivalent to what Liles has done. Not a single one had cracked the 40 point mark in a season when they were moved - Liles has 3 40+ point seasons on resume. Not a single one had more than two 30+ points season - Liles has a career low of 31 points. Not a single one of them is a good comparable for Liles. THe best comparable that was dealt at the last trade deadline was Kaberle, and, well, we all know what he was moved for. What we'd be happy with is pretty much irrelevant. He's value, if he's on the market, is a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect. If anything, the "going rate" you bring up only serves to enforce that point even more.

What we have here is a difference of opinion...however seeing as you probably watch Liles a lot more closely than I do I'll take your word on it.   :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 23, 2011, 05:27:56 PM
What we have here is a difference of opinion...however seeing as you probably watch Liles a lot more closely than I do I'll take your word on it.   :)

Well, there's that and there's the fact that your comparables really boil down to Eric Brewer, Chris Campoli, a struggling Ian White and a trade made by Garth Snow. :P
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on December 23, 2011, 09:43:25 PM
Wasn't the 2nd that was sent to Colorado for Liles Boston's? And he's in a contract year? To me it doesn't add up but if Burke can get a 1st for him all the power to him. The going rate for a pending UFA defenseman without a lot of playoff experience at the deadline last year was a late round second pick - if the positions were reversed I don't think many of you would be too happy if Burke traded away a 1st for him.

Like Flake said it is kind of a moot point to talk about trading him but I guess if someone is offering Burke a 1st for him he'd have to do his due diligence and at least entertain the idea.

None of the defencemen that were traded for 2nd round picks at the last deadline who weren't on the verge of retirement had a track record equivalent to what Liles has done. Not a single one had cracked the 40 point mark in a season when they were moved - Liles has 3 40+ point seasons on resume. Not a single one had more than two 30+ points season - Liles has a career low of 31 points. Not a single one of them is a good comparable for Liles. THe best comparable that was dealt at the last trade deadline was Kaberle, and, well, we all know what he was moved for. What we'd be happy with is pretty much irrelevant. He's value, if he's on the market, is a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect. If anything, the "going rate" you bring up only serves to enforce that point even more.

I think the real question we need to be asking right now is why did Colorado trade him for a late 2nd last summer? He is clearly worth more than that based on his play so far this year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on December 23, 2011, 09:50:19 PM
I think the real question we need to be asking right now is why did Colorado trade him for a late 2nd last summer? He is clearly worth more than that based on his play so far this year.

You can probably ask the 'why' question about all the trades the Avs have made recently.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on December 23, 2011, 09:56:21 PM
I think the real question we need to be asking right now is why did Colorado trade him for a late 2nd last summer? He is clearly worth more than that based on his play so far this year.

You can probably ask the 'why' question about all the trades the Avs have made recently.

So that makes an argument on Liles' value based on that trade moot then, right?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on December 23, 2011, 10:08:52 PM
I think the real question we need to be asking right now is why did Colorado trade him for a late 2nd last summer? He is clearly worth more than that based on his play so far this year.

Part of it, I imagine, was about money, but, also, it was about a change in direction, what with their whole rebuilding/going younger thing. They were supposedly asking for a 1st round pick for him at the deadline last season, so, it's also possible that Burke just managed to talk them down.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on December 23, 2011, 10:15:28 PM
I think if I were Burke, I would be wondering if there was any possible way I could get colorado's first rounder from a struggling Washington.  Perhaps by trading grabbo? Kulemin? Liles?

The same Washington we're competing against in a playoff race?

Well, I'm depressed again about our chances.  Washington "obviously" has the talent to go on a big run and crush us.  They've done it before recently; we havent come close.  We might as well have something to look forward to at the end of the year by selling off our older assets one more time.  If we sell off a forward like grabbo who is a UFA, Colborne and/or Kadri could come up to take his place.  And ideally, we slot in Shea Weber for Liles/grabbo's UFA dollars....plus we have the picks for future cost control.

It doesn't take much for me to go in to give up mode.  It has been so long ....

Not to depress you further but Weber is RFA next year... ( unless I'm missing some sarcasm )
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on December 23, 2011, 10:36:59 PM
I think the real question we need to be asking right now is why did Colorado trade him for a late 2nd last summer? He is clearly worth more than that based on his play so far this year.

You can probably ask the 'why' question about all the trades the Avs have made recently.

So that makes an argument on Liles' value based on that trade moot then, right?

We've seen players picked up on waivers traded for good value not long after, like Dominic Moore.  Same idea.  Leafs got a relative steal in Liles.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: caveman on January 01, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Not encouraging a panic deal here but it might be a good time for a shake-up deal. Bring in someone who fills a need. (PK or goaltending???)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Good, The Bad & the Jokinen on January 01, 2012, 03:27:18 PM
Not encouraging a panic deal here but it might be a good time for a shake-up deal. Bring in someone who fills a need. (PK or goaltending???)

Wilson for a 5th and a box of pucks???

We need something to fix the effin PK asap. It has been our downfall for way to long now and I swear will cost us the playoffs once again sadly.

At least the habs are sucking..... small victories i guess.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 04, 2012, 11:52:15 AM
This Orange County beat writer says it is time to trade Getzlaf (http://m.ocregister.com/articles/ducks-334076-getzlaf-time.html)

He's looked awful this year and if this is a sign of things to come, I wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.  HOWEVER, I am betting he just needs a change of scenary.  Something to get his spark back as right now he looks so disinterested it's scary.

Anyways, if he truly is available obviously Burke would be interested and probably move heaven and earth to try and acquire him.  I don't think we have what Anaheim would want (probably a young top line-esque forward in return).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on January 04, 2012, 12:09:33 PM
This Orange County beat writer says it is time to trade Getzlaf (http://m.ocregister.com/articles/ducks-334076-getzlaf-time.html)

He's looked awful this year and if this is a sign of things to come, I wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.  HOWEVER, I am betting he just needs a change of scenary.  Something to get his spark back as right now he looks so disinterested it's scary.

Anyways, if he truly is available obviously Burke would be interested and probably move heaven and earth to try and acquire him.  I don't think we have what Anaheim would want (probably a young top line-esque forward in return).

A multi-player package that includes Kadri or Bozak (to set up Perry/Ryan) might tempt them depending on what else is included and how much salary they are willing to take back.

Schenn, Kulemin, or a goaltending prospect might interest them as well.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 05, 2012, 03:54:14 PM
How's about Rick Nash?

Quote from: SportingNews
Rick Nash would waive no-movement clause if Jackets asked

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-01-05/rick-nash-trade-request-no-trade-clause-blue-jackets-scott-howson-scott-arniel
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 05, 2012, 03:58:07 PM
How about Nash for Perry or Getzlaf? ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 05, 2012, 04:04:26 PM
How's about Rick Nash?

Quote from: SportingNews
Rick Nash would waive no-movement clause if Jackets asked

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-01-05/rick-nash-trade-request-no-trade-clause-blue-jackets-scott-howson-scott-arniel

Man.  Despite all the wishing that Nash would one day end up here I just can't begin to understand how the BJ's could trade him away.  They have had zero success with him, but what else do they have to draw fans in without a star level player? 

As for the Leafs, with the emergence of Lupul and Kessel I would say the priority right now is at centre but would never say no to a top-end winger if there are no centres to be had (which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment).

 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 05, 2012, 04:05:55 PM
How's about Rick Nash?

Quote from: SportingNews
Rick Nash would waive no-movement clause if Jackets asked

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-01-05/rick-nash-trade-request-no-trade-clause-blue-jackets-scott-howson-scott-arniel

Man.  Despite all the wishing that Nash would one day end up here I just can't begin to understand how the BJ's could trade him away.  They have had zero success with him, but what else do they have to draw fans in without a star level player? 

As for the Leafs, with the emergence of Lupul and Kessel I would say the priority right now is at centre but would never say no to a top-end winger if there are no centres to be had (which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment).

I just think it's funny that Nash is suddenly "open" to moving.  Should have thought of that when you were a free agent dummy.  He could have been a Leaf already.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 05, 2012, 04:13:41 PM
Uh, when was Nash a free agent?

He's speaking to the good of the team in a hypothetical response to a speculative question, not to the good of himself.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 05, 2012, 04:17:58 PM
How's about Rick Nash?

Quote from: SportingNews
Rick Nash would waive no-movement clause if Jackets asked

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-01-05/rick-nash-trade-request-no-trade-clause-blue-jackets-scott-howson-scott-arniel

Man.  Despite all the wishing that Nash would one day end up here I just can't begin to understand how the BJ's could trade him away.  They have had zero success with him, but what else do they have to draw fans in without a star level player? 

As for the Leafs, with the emergence of Lupul and Kessel I would say the priority right now is at centre but would never say no to a top-end winger if there are no centres to be had (which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment).

I just think it's funny that Nash is suddenly "open" to moving.  Should have thought of that when you were a free agent dummy.  He could have been a Leaf already.

Yeah, but who could say no to an 8-year contract like that?  Money talks, plus I'm sure he talked himself into believing that the team had to get better at some point real soon.  Whups.

He and Jay Bo and Kari Lehtenin have a collective 4 playoff games between them so far.   the 2002 draft is cursed.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 14, 2012, 08:21:07 PM
You know, I'm starting to think that maybe the defence group needs as much augmenting as the forward group does if we're going to make a playoff push. I mean, lots of young mobile guys and a couple of hard-nosed ones with lots of potential but it's clear to me all of them still need a ton of seasoning. I'm just seeing far to many mistakes right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: the dingo ate my baby on January 14, 2012, 08:29:45 PM
How's about Rick Nash?

Quote from: SportingNews
Rick Nash would waive no-movement clause if Jackets asked

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-01-05/rick-nash-trade-request-no-trade-clause-blue-jackets-scott-howson-scott-arniel

Man.  Despite all the wishing that Nash would one day end up here I just can't begin to understand how the BJ's could trade him away.  They have had zero success with him, but what else do they have to draw fans in without a star level player? 

As for the Leafs, with the emergence of Lupul and Kessel I would say the priority right now is at centre but would never say no to a top-end winger if there are no centres to be had (which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment).

I just think it's funny that Nash is suddenly "open" to moving.  Should have thought of that when you were a free agent dummy.  He could have been a Leaf already.

I have to think Nash was interested in signing long term with CBJ when it looked like Steve Mason was going to be a franchise goalie.  1 year into the deal, and Mason was horrible.  That's probably when Nash started to have that "what have I done" feeling.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: leafplasma on January 15, 2012, 02:31:15 PM
incarceratedbob: **BREAKING NHL NEWS**Source: Leafs will be announcing a *DEAL* within next 72Hours (Trade could be finalized as early as today) #TOP6FWD

Take it for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 15, 2012, 02:33:13 PM
incarceratedbob: **BREAKING NHL NEWS**Source: Leafs will be announcing a *DEAL* within next 72Hours (Trade could be finalized as early as today) #TOP6FWD

Take it for it is worth.

incarceratedbob, eh?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 15, 2012, 02:34:30 PM
incarceratedbob: **BREAKING NHL NEWS**Source: Leafs will be announcing a *DEAL* within next 72Hours (Trade could be finalized as early as today) #TOP6FWD

Take it for it is worth.

So, no trades for the next 3 days?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on January 15, 2012, 02:43:51 PM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 15, 2012, 02:45:05 PM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

Must be a heck of a +
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: nutman on January 15, 2012, 03:17:26 PM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

Must be a heck of a +


Why? Grabs is a solid player,and I dont think you would need to add that much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 15, 2012, 03:19:38 PM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

Must be a heck of a +


Why? Grabs is a solid player,and I dont think you would need to add that much.

Because (in part) they'd only getting less then 3 months of Grabo guaranteed. - More if they make the playoffs but that's a bit of a stretch right now it seems.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bleeding Blue & White on January 15, 2012, 03:27:38 PM
honestly I really don't think Grabovski would resign in Anaheim.  He is a great player and I would wish him success wherever he goes.  Wouldn't it be great if we could resign him in the offseason?  I would laugh so hard if that happened. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 15, 2012, 03:28:44 PM
honestly I really don't think Grabovski would resign in Anaheim.  He is a great player and I would wish him success wherever he goes.  Wouldn't it be great if we could resign him in the offseason?  I would laugh so hard if that happened.

It would also be great to resign him today.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: nutman on January 15, 2012, 03:33:17 PM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

Must be a heck of a +


Why? Grabs is a solid player,and I dont think you would need to add that much.

Because (in part) they'd only getting less then 3 months of Grabo guaranteed. - More if they make the playoffs but that's a bit of a stretch right now it seems.

So then grabbo wont be the guy delt then. they want a player who steps in as well as one who is close. I want too see our second line stay because they are just comming back to life, and if you toss in Getz on the 1st line I see a very deadly team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 15, 2012, 03:43:39 PM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

He had Grabovski going to the Ducks, and speculated it was part of a deal for Ryan or Getzlaf, but, he has since removed those tweets.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bleeding Blue & White on January 15, 2012, 03:43:50 PM
also this article hasn't been posted, getz doesn't want to leave anaheim.  He could just be saying that but it makes me worry if we got him he might not resign

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/ryan-getzlaf-gets-the-message-and-gets-going/article2300973/

“I don’t want to go anywhere,” continued Getzlaf, with emphasis. “Anaheim, the city itself, has been unbelievable for me. My wife is from there. It’s definitely where we’ve laid our roots and plan to stay as long as we can.”
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 15, 2012, 03:44:44 PM
also this article hasn't been posted, getz doesn't want to leave anaheim.  He could just be saying that but it makes me worry if we got him he might not resign

Every player in every league says the same types of things when their name is in the rumour mill.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 15, 2012, 05:02:32 PM
Grabo and Kulemin spend the off-season in Southern California for those doubting whether he would re-sign there.  Not that I'm saying this rumour is credible or anything.
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 15, 2012, 06:11:21 PM
Well given Burke's MO a Leafs trade in the next few day is probably likely so hold onto your hats. All those twitter guys are hedging their bets that Burke makes a move soon.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Newbury on January 15, 2012, 07:23:09 PM
Well given Burke's MO a Leafs trade in the next few day is probably likely so hold onto your hats. All those twitter guys are hedging their bets that Burke makes a move soon.

I can see something coming within the next week or two. If we lose to the Sens, I wouldn't be surprised to see a deal this week.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on January 15, 2012, 07:29:57 PM
Well given Burke's MO a Leafs trade in the next few day is probably likely so hold onto your hats. All those twitter guys are hedging their bets that Burke makes a move soon.

I can see something coming within the next week or two. If we lose to the Sens, I wouldn't be surprised to see a deal this week.

Man. I hope a big trade doesn't go down when I'm in Cuba next week. It's hot and sunny, but I might as well be on the moon looking for hockey news updates. :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on January 15, 2012, 07:39:26 PM
Whatever happens, Burke probably needs to do something relatively soon.  Washington, well more importantly Vokoun, is heating up with his SV% at .915 coming in to today and he had a pretty dominant game against Carolina giving up 1 goal on 44 shots.
Washington is only a point behind the Leafs with two games in hand.  So PT%-wise we are currently in 9th place.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 15, 2012, 07:41:00 PM
Whatever happens, Burke probably needs to do something relatively soon.  Washington, well more importantly Vokoun, is heating up with his SV% at .915 coming in to today and he had a pretty dominant game against Carolina giving up 1 goal on 44 shots.
Washington is only a point behind the Leafs with two games in hand.  So PT%-wise we are currently in 9th place.

Washington is actually now a point ahead of the Leafs, but, they also took the division lead away from the stumbling Panthers.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Brian Glennie on January 15, 2012, 08:13:10 PM
Well given Burke's MO a Leafs trade in the next few day is probably likely so hold onto your hats. All those twitter guys are hedging their bets that Burke makes a move soon.

I can see something coming within the next week or two. If we lose to the Sens, I wouldn't be surprised to see a deal this week.

But wouldn't that mean Burke's reacting to his team being weaker than he expected? Again?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bender on January 15, 2012, 08:26:04 PM
Well given Burke's MO a Leafs trade in the next few day is probably likely so hold onto your hats. All those twitter guys are hedging their bets that Burke makes a move soon.

I can see something coming within the next week or two. If we lose to the Sens, I wouldn't be surprised to see a deal this week.

But wouldn't that mean Burke's reacting to his team being weaker than he expected? Again?

Again?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2012, 12:11:05 AM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

He had Grabovski going to the Ducks, and speculated it was part of a deal for Ryan or Getzlaf, but, he has since removed those tweets.

It's adorable really when the Score tries to break news.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 09:03:57 AM
The Score producer, Chad Walker, has Grabs + going to the Ducks for Getzlaf.

He had Grabovski going to the Ducks, and speculated it was part of a deal for Ryan or Getzlaf, but, he has since removed those tweets.

It's adorable really when the Score tries to break news.

What else you gonna do on a lazy Sunday?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 16, 2012, 09:22:29 AM
Did you guys see the pandamonium that a few tweets caused over at that other Leaf board yesterday?

It's utterly ridiculous how spazmatic a lot of those Leaf posters can become.  They literally post random, baseless rumours every 30 seconds.  "What about Getzlaf?  What about this deal?  Can we get Johansson?  This might get us Wilson!  I want Backes!" 

It's just embarssing.  I envision all the Leaf posters at Hockeysfuture like this guy:

(http://rpgland.com/content/media/2009/12/SouthParkWoWLoser.jpg)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 09:51:24 AM
Did you guys see the pandamonium that a few tweets caused over at that other Leaf board yesterday?

It's utterly ridiculous how spazmatic a lot of those Leaf posters can become.  They literally post random, baseless rumours every 30 seconds.  "What about Getzlaf?  What about this deal?  Can we get Johansson?  This might get us Wilson!  I want Backes!" 

It's just embarssing.  I envision all the Leaf posters at Hockeysfuture like this guy:

(http://rpgland.com/content/media/2009/12/SouthParkWoWLoser.jpg)

The wrist guard is a nice touch.  ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
Did you guys see the pandamonium that a few tweets caused over at that other Leaf board yesterday?

It's utterly ridiculous how spazmatic a lot of those Leaf posters can become.  They literally post random, baseless rumours every 30 seconds.  "What about Getzlaf?  What about this deal?  Can we get Johansson?  This might get us Wilson!  I want Backes!" 

It's just embarssing.  I envision all the Leaf posters at Hockeysfuture like this guy:

As bad as some of the Leaf related proposals are, the ones from Habs fans are so much worse. They have absolutely no clue as to the value of their players. It's really pretty funny.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 10:13:16 AM
Did you guys see the pandamonium that a few tweets caused over at that other Leaf board yesterday?

It's utterly ridiculous how spazmatic a lot of those Leaf posters can become.  They literally post random, baseless rumours every 30 seconds.  "What about Getzlaf?  What about this deal?  Can we get Johansson?  This might get us Wilson!  I want Backes!" 

It's just embarssing.  I envision all the Leaf posters at Hockeysfuture like this guy:

As bad as some of the Leaf related proposals are, the ones from Habs fans are so much worse. They have absolutely no clue as to the value of their players. It's really pretty funny.

There are delusional fans of any fanbase, but the most delusional seem to gravitate to the message boards so you get a high percentage of "scratch your head" type proposals.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 16, 2012, 10:37:19 AM
I quit internet trade rumors in 2002 - cold turkey too!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 16, 2012, 10:44:20 AM

It's just embarssing.  I envision all the Leaf posters at Hockeysfuture like this guy:

(http://rpgland.com/content/media/2009/12/SouthParkWoWLoser.jpg)

Yes.. they do look a lot like the on-air talent at The Score.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 16, 2012, 10:50:14 AM
incarceratedbob: **BREAKING NHL NEWS**Source: Leafs will be announcing a *DEAL* within next 72Hours (Trade could be finalized as early as today) #TOP6FWD

Take it for it is worth.

So, no trades for the next 3 days?

Bob is so full of it he almost makes Eklund look credible. 

Almost.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 11:01:06 AM
Bob is so full of it he almost makes Eklund look credible. 

Almost.

I love the fact that he protects his tweets as well, so, he has to let you follow him so that you can read his BS. I refuse to have that garbage clogging up my timeline, so, really, all I know about him is what gets posted on message boards.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on January 16, 2012, 11:06:27 AM
Bob is so full of it he almost makes Eklund look credible. 

Almost.

I love the fact that he protects his tweets as well, so, he has to let you follow him so that you can read his BS. I refuse to have that garbage clogging up my timeline, so, really, all I know about him is what gets posted on message boards.

Is this guy even associated with a media outlet?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 16, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
Bob is so full of it he almost makes Eklund look credible. 

Almost.

I love the fact that he protects his tweets as well, so, he has to let you follow him so that you can read his BS. I refuse to have that garbage clogging up my timeline, so, really, all I know about him is what gets posted on message boards.

Same here.  Not knowing the back story, I followed him for about a week to see what he was all about.  He is all about yelling, clogging up twitter feeds and piles of BS.  During that time, some signing or trade went down that he was about 10% right (I think he was right on the date but wrong on the player and the team and the sport) on and the next 400 tweets were about how good he was, in all caps.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 16, 2012, 11:08:14 AM
Bob is so full of it he almost makes Eklund look credible. 

Almost.

I love the fact that he protects his tweets as well, so, he has to let you follow him so that you can read his BS. I refuse to have that garbage clogging up my timeline, so, really, all I know about him is what gets posted on message boards.

Is this guy even associated with a media outlet?

Only his own.  Chances are he looks a lot like the photo Ern Dog posted below.  (So wait maybe he IS a Score employee.)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on January 16, 2012, 11:11:37 AM
Bob is so full of it he almost makes Eklund look credible. 

Almost.

I love the fact that he protects his tweets as well, so, he has to let you follow him so that you can read his BS. I refuse to have that garbage clogging up my timeline, so, really, all I know about him is what gets posted on message boards.

Is this guy even associated with a media outlet?

Only his own.  Chances are he looks a lot like the photo Ern Dog posted below.  (So wait maybe he IS a Score employee.)

Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 11:12:03 AM
Is this guy even associated with a media outlet?

His twitter profile seems to claim that he's associated with a New York area radio station, though, with the way it's just kind of thrown in there, it might just be that he's a fan of the station.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 16, 2012, 11:13:00 AM
I'm going to dust off a name from last year... Paul Stastny... Not that I think he's available or anything but maybe they do it for the right deal? Personally, I'm as interested in acquiring him now as I was last year.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 11:13:56 AM
I'm going to dust off a name from last year... Paul Stastny... Not that I think he's available or anything but maybe they do it for the right deal? Personally, I'm as interested in acquiring him now as I was last year.

Are you incarceratedbob?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 16, 2012, 11:15:23 AM
I'm going to dust off a name from last year... Paul Stastny... Not that I think he's available or anything but maybe they do it for the right deal? Personally, I'm as interested in acquiring him now as I was last year.

Are you incarceratedbob?

Hey now...   >:( I'm not throwing out a "rumour" here.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 11:16:42 AM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 16, 2012, 11:17:55 AM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 11:21:24 AM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 11:23:12 AM
I'm going to dust off a name from last year... Paul Stastny... Not that I think he's available or anything but maybe they do it for the right deal? Personally, I'm as interested in acquiring him now as I was last year.

I'm definitely not. 2nd season in a row where he's really not justifying his paycheque at all, and Colorado (surprisingly) are a decent team this season, with no cap issues . . . I don't see them as having any serious motivation to move him, and the Leafs not in a position to take un cap commitments that aren't carrying their weight. There's something wrong with Stastny right now, and the Leafs shouldn't be gambling on their ability to fix him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 16, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

As of today, (per capgeek) the Leafs have ~2.5 mil in cap space... 2.5 + 2.9 (Grabo) = 5.4... Now who's contract is ~ 5.4? LEGZZZZ!   ;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 16, 2012, 11:24:56 AM
I'm going to dust off a name from last year... Paul Stastny... Not that I think he's available or anything but maybe they do it for the right deal? Personally, I'm as interested in acquiring him now as I was last year.

I'm definitely not. 2nd season in a row where he's really not justifying his paycheque at all, and Colorado (surprisingly) are a decent team this season, with no cap issues . . . I don't see them as having any serious motivation to move him, and the Leafs not in a position to take un cap commitments that aren't carrying their weight. There's something wrong with Stastny right now, and the Leafs shouldn't be gambling on their ability to fix him.

Fair enough... It is a big ticket.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on January 16, 2012, 11:27:46 AM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.

Yeah. Same as sideshow bob, or whatever his name is...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 11:41:30 AM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.

Yeah. Same as sideshow bob, or whatever his name is...

Yup I already know how those twitter guys work.  They'll never put "DONE DEAL!" until after they hear it reported somewhere legit and then they'll take credit for it by pointing back to their rumors.  If ANYTHING happens in the next 72 hours, Bob will take full credit, if not he'll say "deal fell through".
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bender on January 16, 2012, 11:51:49 AM
Man, I'm really itching for a shakeup. The team is decent, and might squeak into the playoffs in 8th or 7th, but halfway into the season it is currently a risk that they may not be able to do so.

Its hard to say what this team needs as I think they can upgrade at all positions. More consistent scoring would be nice, but we also need more responsible backchecking and defense. Goaltending is obviously a big question mark but we're probably going to be rolling Gus and Reimer the rest of the year so...

Bah, this team has a few good pieces, just the complimentary pieces aren't correct in order to bring it all together.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 16, 2012, 12:00:55 PM
Man, I'm really itching for a shakeup. The team is decent, and might squeak into the playoffs in 8th or 7th, but halfway into the season it is currently a risk that they may not be able to do so.

Its hard to say what this team needs as I think they can upgrade at all positions. More consistent scoring would be nice, but we also need more responsible backchecking and defense. Goaltending is obviously a big question mark but we're probably going to be rolling Gus and Reimer the rest of the year so...

Bah, this team has a few good pieces, just the complimentary pieces aren't correct in order to bring it all together.

I know how you feel.  Leafs are truly a bubble team with some good players but it can easily blow up in our faces.  We *should* stay in the top 8 the rest of the way, but right now there are no guarantees.  Keeping my fingers crossed that Burke can upgrade the talent somehow before the deadline to give the Leafs a better shot.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bullfrog on January 16, 2012, 12:03:01 PM
I can see something coming within the next week or two. If we lose to the Sens, I wouldn't be surprised to see a deal this week.

I really doubt that one loss will make up the GM's mind about a trade. These are usually things that are discussed for weeks.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bonsixx on January 16, 2012, 06:35:04 PM

It's just embarssing.  I envision all the Leaf posters at Hockeysfuture like this guy:

(http://rpgland.com/content/media/2009/12/SouthParkWoWLoser.jpg)

Yes.. they do look a lot like the on-air talent at The Score.

(http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1684086823/reneepaquette_y3.jpg)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 10:43:29 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2012, 10:44:16 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Somebody go see if britishbulldog is still breathing.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on January 16, 2012, 10:50:38 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Is that based on this?

Quote
RealKyper_ Nick Kypreos
#Leafs and #SJSharks are seriously talking big trade involving Clowe. #nhl

Because someone told me Kypreos tweeted it, but that's a fake Kyper twitter account, and can't find anything on his real one.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on January 16, 2012, 10:51:41 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Somebody go see if britishbulldog is still breathing.

I have a hard time seeing him for anything less than Kulemin + stuff, and while Kulemin's having a down year it really strikes me as more of a lateral move.  Clowe's one of those guys who I think fits in between lines.  Not 1st line material, probably 2nd line, but if they found a way to add him without getting rid of Kulemin I think it would be a great addition.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 16, 2012, 10:53:24 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Is that based on this?

Quote
RealKyper_ Nick Kypreos
#Leafs and #SJSharks are seriously talking big trade involving Clowe. #nhl

Because someone told me Kypreos tweeted it, but that's a fake Kyper twitter account, and can't find anything on his real one.

Probably, yeah. What I saw was someone claiming they mentioned it during the intermission of the Ottawa-Winnipeg game . . . but, I mean, truth or no truth, we're likely to be hearing a lot about him in the next couple days.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on January 16, 2012, 10:54:26 PM
Ahh thanks, did not see that.  I would love to add him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2012, 11:04:27 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Is that based on this?

Quote
RealKyper_ Nick Kypreos
#Leafs and #SJSharks are seriously talking big trade involving Clowe. #nhl

Because someone told me Kypreos tweeted it, but that's a fake Kyper twitter account, and can't find anything on his real one.

Probably, yeah. What I saw was someone claiming they mentioned it during the intermission of the Ottawa-Winnipeg game . . . but, I mean, truth or no truth, we're likely to be hearing a lot about him in the next couple days.

It started with the intermission (although I still haven't heard anything definite about it actually being discussed there) and whoever runs that particular fake Kyper account decided to run off that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 16, 2012, 11:09:30 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Somebody go see if britishbulldog is still breathing.

 ;D

Rock and Roll!!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 16, 2012, 11:16:30 PM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Somebody go see if britishbulldog is still breathing.

 ;D

Rock and Roll!!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's seeming more and more likely that this was completely made up.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Newbury on January 16, 2012, 11:30:45 PM
Made up or not, if there was any chance for us to get Clowe at all, I'd put together a serious offer. He is exactly what we need on the second line.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 04:32:45 AM
Man, I'd love to have Clowe... I'm pretty sure SJ isn't keen on moving him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 17, 2012, 08:44:44 AM
(http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1684086823/reneepaquette_y3.jpg)

 :o Who is that and what time do I have to watch the Score to see her??!?!!

Every time I ever flip to that channel (usually at the gym.. all that they get) its that scronny guy with the giant head and the fat redhead guy who dresses like a farmer from Alberta yacking away about something.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 17, 2012, 08:47:27 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

Somebody go see if britishbulldog is still breathing.

 ;D

Rock and Roll!!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's seeming more and more likely that this was completely made up.

Bubble not burst just losing air...  ;)

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 17, 2012, 09:03:46 AM
(http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1684086823/reneepaquette_y3.jpg)

 :o Who is that and what time do I have to watch the Score to see her??!?!!

Every time I ever flip to that channel (usually at the gym.. all that they get) its that scronny guy with the giant head and the fat redhead guy who dresses like a farmer from Alberta yacking away about something.

Renee Paquette.

When you said your comment I was going to mention her also.  She's a babe.  Love her.  She's also on twitter and she's not boring either.

She's on Aftermath (after WWE Raw repeat on tuesdays... so today at 6pm).  She's also on various other programs here and there.  She was on the "Next Score Host" search or whatever they called it.

I'll stop now because I sound like one of those internet creepers  :o
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 09:28:15 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 09:28:47 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real monet as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

I thought the newest internet rumor was Jeff Carter?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 17, 2012, 09:29:35 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Sure Stevie Y, Malone sounds great.  How about a 5th round pick for him and his albatross contract and you throw in a 1st to make it happen.  :D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 09:30:33 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Sure Stevie Y, Malone sounds great.  How about a 5th round pick for him and his albatross contract and you throw in a 1st to make it happen.  :D

How 'bout Komisarek?  :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 17, 2012, 09:40:37 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Sure Stevie Y, Malone sounds great.  How about a 5th round pick for him and his albatross contract and you throw in a 1st to make it happen.  :D

How 'bout Komisarek?  :)

That would work.  I think.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on January 17, 2012, 10:29:15 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Ugh I hope not.  His cap hit is worse than armstrongs dead weight. We don't need two "power forwards" who don't play like it/are never in the lineup
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 10:35:51 AM
The media/rumour mongers have linked Malone to the Leafs a lot of the past few years, but, if I had to guess, if it was going to happen, it already would have. Burke has said in the past that he's not interested in players that always seem to be hurt, so, my guess is any interest in Malone is luke warm at best.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 10:36:16 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Ugh I hope not.  His cap hit is worse than armstrongs dead weight. We don't need two "power forwards" who don't play like it/are never in the lineup

I dunno.. Unlike Army, I think Malone was producing okay when in... He's still produces at the same clip offensively as Connolly does;

This year;

Malone: .66 PtsPG
Connolly: .69 PtsPG
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 17, 2012, 10:36:48 AM
Made up or not, if there was any chance for us to get Clowe at all, I'd put together a serious offer. He is exactly what we need on the second line.

I agree 100%

Clowe might be hard to get out of San Jose since he probably is their best/toughest fighter and will probably also be in their top 5 in points as well.

The other possible option I was wondering though is Chris Stewart.  With the depth of toughness in St Louis with Crombeen, Backes, Reaves and Stewart all playing RW and knowing St Louis gave a a big dman to get Stewart I was wondering if Schenn straight up or Komisarek for Stewart and the rest of Andy McDonald's $9.4 MIL contract (if it wasn't insured) might work.

Unfortunately Malone straight up for Komisarek is more realistic than either of my Stewart trades.  The only difference is Malone isn't a REAL fighter similar to Backes.  OTOH, Clowe and Stewart are good hockey players and legitimate heavyweight fighters in the league.

In any regard, if the Leafs got Clowe, Stewart or Malone, that would free up a 2nd line player ***MacArthur *** cough *** for the Getzlaf trade as well as the Leafs 1st line center (Bozak??) and a young dman without messing with the chemistry a whole lot I would hope.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 10:39:26 AM
The media/rumour mongers have linked Malone to the Leafs a lot of the past few years, but, if I had to guess, if it was going to happen, it already would have. Burke has said in the past that he's not interested in players that always seem to be hurt, so, my guess is any interest in Malone is luke warm at best.

Connolly?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 17, 2012, 10:41:46 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Ugh I hope not.  His cap hit is worse than armstrongs dead weight. We don't need two "power forwards" who don't play like it/are never in the lineup

Since when is Armstrong considered a power forward?  He's a checking forward.  Large difference in my books.

Also, Malone plays like a power forward... mostly why he gets hurt, but also scores, especially on the PP in the crease.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 17, 2012, 10:43:13 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Sure Stevie Y, Malone sounds great.  How about a 5th round pick for him and his albatross contract and you throw in a 1st to make it happen.  :D

How 'bout Komisarek?  :)

That would work.  I think.

JM Liles is skating today with the team.. good chance he could be back in the next few games.  If he returns soon, might free up a move such as what we are suggesting. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Boston Leaf on January 17, 2012, 10:44:13 AM
The media/rumour mongers have linked Malone to the Leafs a lot of the past few years, but, if I had to guess, if it was going to happen, it already would have. Burke has said in the past that he's not interested in players that always seem to be hurt, so, my guess is any interest in Malone is luke warm at best.

Connolly?

Lombardi?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 10:46:25 AM
The newest name making its way through the Leafs rumour mill is Ryan Clowe.

That's sooooo last night now...   :P The newest is Malone (again.) 4.5 hit with 3 years left (8 mil in real money as his deal was heavily front-loaded.)

Sure Stevie Y, Malone sounds great.  How about a 5th round pick for him and his albatross contract and you throw in a 1st to make it happen.  :D

How 'bout Komisarek?  :)

That would work.  I think.

JM Liles is skating today with the team.. good chance he could be back in the next few games.  If he returns soon, might free up a move such as what we are suggesting.

I could see Komisarek willing to waive his NTC/NMC for Tampa (won't have to pay tax on the remaining part of his contract.) Malone however? I think for that reason he might never leave.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 10:47:00 AM
The media/rumour mongers have linked Malone to the Leafs a lot of the past few years, but, if I had to guess, if it was going to happen, it already would have. Burke has said in the past that he's not interested in players that always seem to be hurt, so, my guess is any interest in Malone is luke warm at best.

Connolly?

I think Connolly is an exception here, because, well, there was no other UFAs that could fill the role he was brought in for, and signing him meant saving trade assets for when players would become available instead of forcing something in the summer. In terms of trading for a power forward type, there are dozens of healthier options than Malone who are equally available.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 10:47:40 AM
Lombardi?

That trade was all about Franson. Lombardi was, at the time, salary the Leafs were willing to eat in order to acquire a good young player. Burke pretty much said as much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 10:48:42 AM
The media/rumour mongers have linked Malone to the Leafs a lot of the past few years, but, if I had to guess, if it was going to happen, it already would have. Burke has said in the past that he's not interested in players that always seem to be hurt, so, my guess is any interest in Malone is luke warm at best.

Connolly?

I think Connolly is an exception here, because, well, there was no other UFAs that could fill the role he was brought in for, and signing him meant saving trade assets for when players would become available instead of forcing something in the summer. In terms of trading for a power forward type, there are dozens of healthier options than Malone who are equally available.

How could you know that?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
Hoe could you know that?

Because, there are always healthier options than Malone.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 10:53:51 AM
Hoe could you know that?

Because, there are always healthier options than Malone.

Again though... You don't really know that any more than I do. Unless, you're going with the logic that in reality, EVERYONE is actually available which I suppose is as sound as any. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 10:55:18 AM
Players I'd want Burke to target in order of preference from me:

Getzlaf
Staal
Ryan
Statsny
Carter

(this is assuming these guys are available, I didn't include Perry because all indications are he's "untouchable" in Anaheim)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 10:57:09 AM
Again though... You don't really know that any more than I do. Unless, you're going with the logic that in reality, EVERYONE is actually available which I suppose is as sound as any.

Well, we don't know that Malone is available either, right? So, I mean, really, since we're speculating about players who may or may not be available, it's not unreasonable to say equivalent players with a better track record health-wise are equally available.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 17, 2012, 10:57:52 AM
Hoe could you know that?

Because, there are always healthier options than Malone.

.. who will all cost 10x as much in trade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 10:59:33 AM
.. who will all cost 10x as much in trade.

You don't know that for sure. Tampa may still see him as a very valuable asset. I mean, they're not exactly the most "on the ball" organization out there.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 11:01:01 AM
Hoe could you know that?

Because, there are always healthier options than Malone.

.. who will all cost 10x as much in trade.

You can't say that in the day and age of salary caps and teams looking to get out of deals.  Guys could be traded for far less than they would have in a previous era when you factor in the cap.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 17, 2012, 11:03:42 AM
Players I'd want Burke to target in order of preference from me:

Getzlaf
Staal
Ryan
Statsny
Carter

(this is assuming these guys are available, I didn't include Perry because all indications are he's "untouchable" in Anaheim)

Is that Eric or Jordan?

Oh and you forgot Clowe and Stewart.  :)  ...and that is Chris not Anthony.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 11:04:26 AM
Players I'd want Burke to target in order of preference from me:

Getzlaf
Staal
Ryan
Statsny
Carter

(this is assuming these guys are available, I didn't include Perry because all indications are he's "untouchable" in Anaheim)

Is that Eric or Jordan?

Oh and you forgot Clowe and Stewart.  :)  ...and that is Chris not Anthony.

I mean Eric.  I'm just trying to line up a center (and I threw Bobby Ryan in just because everyone always does)  ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on January 17, 2012, 12:10:44 PM
Players I'd want Burke to target in order of preference from me:

Getzlaf
Staal
Ryan
Statsny
Carter

(this is assuming these guys are available, I didn't include Perry because all indications are he's "untouchable" in Anaheim)

Is that Eric or Jordan?

Oh and you forgot Clowe and Stewart.  :)  ...and that is Chris not Anthony.

One thing I'll say about the BritishBulldog, he's persistent.

While I like both those players, BB, they're not at all the impact players like the others on Zee's list.  Great complimentary players, but not the cornerstone the Leafs need.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 17, 2012, 12:18:01 PM
Funniest trade rumour of the year had to be that Maloney asked for Kadri and Schenn for Turris. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 12:22:16 PM
Funniest trade rumour of the year had to be that Maloney asked for Kadri and Schenn for Turris.

Well, apparently acquiring Turris turns you into a powerhouse so, giddy-up?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Green Leaf on January 17, 2012, 12:32:45 PM
How about Dallas? Could it be Loui Eriksson?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 17, 2012, 12:51:22 PM
Players I'd want Burke to target in order of preference from me:

Getzlaf
Staal
Ryan
Statsny
Carter

(this is assuming these guys are available, I didn't include Perry because all indications are he's "untouchable" in Anaheim)

Is that Eric or Jordan?

Oh and you forgot Clowe and Stewart.  :)  ...and that is Chris not Anthony.

One thing I'll say about the BritishBulldog, he's persistent.

While I like both those players, BB, they're not at all the impact players like the others on Zee's list.  Great complimentary players, but not the cornerstone the Leafs need.

:)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 17, 2012, 12:55:16 PM
How about Dallas? Could it be Loui Eriksson?
Not really the type to bring the physicallity we are looking for, is he? 

Good goalscorer though and has some size, but plays smaller from what I remember.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 17, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
How about Dallas? Could it be Loui Eriksson?
Not really the type to bring the physicallity we are looking for, is he? 

Good goalscorer though and has some size, but plays smaller from what I remember.

Would also never be made available.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 01:29:54 PM
Eklund says nothing is imminent with the Leafs, so, we should expect a trade in the next 24 hours. :P
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 01:33:37 PM
Eklund says nothing is imminent with the Leafs, so, we should expect a trade in the next 24 hours. :P

e4?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 01:34:25 PM
Eklund says nothing is imminent with the Leafs, so, we should expect a trade in the next 24 hours. :P

Kidding aside, Burke reaffirmed the other day for his preference to make his deadline deals this month and history shows he makes some pretty big ones in January... It's hard not to be at least a tad anxious for something to happen anytime now.  :-\
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: donkeyy0 on January 17, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
Eklund says nothing is imminent with the Leafs, so, we should expect a trade in the next 24 hours. :P

Kidding aside, Burke reaffirmed the other day for his preference to make his deadline deals this month and history shows he makes some pretty big ones in January... It's hard not to be at least a tad anxious for something to happen anytime now.  :-\

If Burke made a deal now it would be earlier than normal even for him. Phaneuf/Giggy/Lupul/whatever other deals have all come last week of Jan/first week of Feb.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 17, 2012, 01:51:55 PM
Eklund says nothing is imminent with the Leafs, so, we should expect a trade in the next 24 hours. :P

Kidding aside, Burke reaffirmed the other day for his preference to make his deadline deals this month and history shows he makes some pretty big ones in January... It's hard not to be at least a tad anxious for something to happen anytime now.  :-\

If Burke made a deal now it would be earlier than normal even for him. Phaneuf/Giggy/Lupul/whatever other deals have all come last week of Jan/first week of Feb.

Well, we are into the 3rd week of Jan. so it's not exactly a stretch to think (almost expect) something to happen here in short order.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 01:54:02 PM
Eklund says nothing is imminent with the Leafs, so, we should expect a trade in the next 24 hours. :P

Kidding aside, Burke reaffirmed the other day for his preference to make his deadline deals this month and history shows he makes some pretty big ones in January... It's hard not to be at least a tad anxious for something to happen anytime now.  :-\

If Burke made a deal now it would be earlier than normal even for him. Phaneuf/Giggy/Lupul/whatever other deals have all come last week of Jan/first week of Feb.

Well, we are into the 3rd week of Jan. so it's not exactly a stretch to think (almost expect) something to happen here in short order.

It's Burke's own fault for his interview last week on the McCowan show.  Sounded like he had trades in the works based on his answers.  I know these things take time and Burke will further explain to me again how every day off the calendar is another day off the salary cap where it'll make sense to trade a certain player...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Green Leaf on January 17, 2012, 02:03:40 PM
I personally think the trade is already done, and they are just waiting till the salaries are right for both teams... but they will advise us before we honour Sundin's number on Feb 11th. Thats the Armche123 Window.  ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 17, 2012, 02:07:29 PM
I personally think the trade is already done, and they are just waiting till the salaries are right for both teams... but they will advise us before we honour Sundin's number on Feb 11th. Thats the Armche123 Window.  ;)

Maybe Sundin will announce he's re-joining the team for the stretch drive during that night too.  ;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Green Leaf on January 17, 2012, 02:33:14 PM
( @Zee ) that would be amazing! To be serious, I always wanted him to come back and play with a matured Toronto Maple Leafs roster, but having him sit in the stands that day when he came down to watch the game made me feel a sense of pride inside. Im sure Burke will make us all feel proud with the team we have at that time.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Good, The Bad & the Jokinen on January 17, 2012, 02:38:08 PM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.

Yeah. Same as sideshow bob, or whatever his name is...

Yup I already know how those twitter guys work.  They'll never put "DONE DEAL!" until after they hear it reported somewhere legit and then they'll take credit for it by pointing back to their rumors.  If ANYTHING happens in the next 72 hours, Bob will take full credit, if not he'll say "deal fell through".

Nice to see you are talking about what you do not know anything about. IBN isn't anywhere near eklund and company. If you put aside the blathering and usual net posturing he actually does call more things right then most do. He has nailed more then a few NFL/NBA/MLB trades right on the money. His  record with NHL trades isn't as good but he still has much more credibility then eklund and most of the other toolboxes who wait for the deal to be done and then try to take credit for calling it.

Some people here act like when someone shares a rumor or possibility that it has to come true or the person is a sham. Things fall thru and last second changes often throw a deal out the window. you can't blame someone for that after all.....

That aside I really hope that we don't end up overpaying to get a top6.
Clowe would be nice but not at the cost of kuli and no way in hell i would want malone on this team, to much of a albatross contractwise.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on January 17, 2012, 03:36:42 PM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.

Yeah. Same as sideshow bob, or whatever his name is...

Yup I already know how those twitter guys work.  They'll never put "DONE DEAL!" until after they hear it reported somewhere legit and then they'll take credit for it by pointing back to their rumors.  If ANYTHING happens in the next 72 hours, Bob will take full credit, if not he'll say "deal fell through".

Nice to see you are talking about what you do not know anything about. IBN isn't anywhere near eklund and company. If you put aside the blathering and usual net posturing he actually does call more things right then most do. He has nailed more then a few NFL/NBA/MLB trades right on the money. His  record with NHL trades isn't as good but he still has much more credibility then eklund and most of the other toolboxes who wait for the deal to be done and then try to take credit for calling it.

Some people here act like when someone shares a rumor or possibility that it has to come true or the person is a sham. Things fall thru and last second changes often throw a deal out the window. you can't blame someone for that after all.....

That aside I really hope that we don't end up overpaying to get a top6.
Clowe would be nice but not at the cost of kuli and no way in hell i would want malone on this team, to much of a albatross contractwise.

Well, if he's right we should be hearing about the deal just past 2pm tomorrow. I'm sure this is why Schenn & Kadri are sitting out tonight. :)

Schenn, Kadri & a 1st for Getzlaf?

I would seriously make that trade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 04:27:00 PM
Dallas Dave outed bob as a fraud when he admitted he was a fraud.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on January 17, 2012, 04:27:43 PM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.

Yeah. Same as sideshow bob, or whatever his name is...

Yup I already know how those twitter guys work.  They'll never put "DONE DEAL!" until after they hear it reported somewhere legit and then they'll take credit for it by pointing back to their rumors.  If ANYTHING happens in the next 72 hours, Bob will take full credit, if not he'll say "deal fell through".

Nice to see you are talking about what you do not know anything about. IBN isn't anywhere near eklund and company. If you put aside the blathering and usual net posturing he actually does call more things right then most do. He has nailed more then a few NFL/NBA/MLB trades right on the money. His  record with NHL trades isn't as good but he still has much more credibility then eklund and most of the other toolboxes who wait for the deal to be done and then try to take credit for calling it.

Some people here act like when someone shares a rumor or possibility that it has to come true or the person is a sham. Things fall thru and last second changes often throw a deal out the window. you can't blame someone for that after all.....

That aside I really hope that we don't end up overpaying to get a top6.
Clowe would be nice but not at the cost of kuli and no way in hell i would want malone on this team, to much of a albatross contractwise.

Well, if he's right we should be hearing about the deal just past 2pm tomorrow. I'm sure this is why Schenn & Kadri are sitting out tonight. :)

Schenn, Kadri & a 1st for Getzlaf?

I would seriously make that trade.

If it's not the reason then I have a big issue with the decision. Ottawa is not a tough team, and the Leafs need Kadri a heck of a lot more than they need Rosehill.

Neil never fights, and putting one "gritty" player in isn't about to make us a tough team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 17, 2012, 04:30:30 PM
Dallas Dave outed bob as a fraud when he admitted he was a fraud.

You sure? I remember he outed HockeyBreaks for sure, but I didn't think he mentioned bob.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 17, 2012, 04:33:44 PM
Dallas Dave outed bob as a fraud when he admitted he was a fraud.

You sure? I remember he outed HockeyBreaks for sure, but I didn't think he mentioned bob.

I'm pretty sure he outed bob as well. Like 99.9% sure.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 17, 2012, 04:34:14 PM
From Elliotte Friedman's 30 thoughts article:

Quote
9.    Obviously, there's a lot of talk about Luke Schenn. But hearing that a few teams are watching Toronto AHL defenceman Korbinian Holzer very closely (Anaheim is one). A few guys who see him much more than I do think he's ready for a consistent shot at the NHL. He's defensive-minded (a good penalty killer) and doesn't back down. Could be part of a package for something.

Something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rob on January 17, 2012, 04:42:10 PM
From Elliotte Friedman's 30 thoughts article:

Quote
9.    Obviously, there's a lot of talk about Luke Schenn. But hearing that a few teams are watching Toronto AHL defenceman Korbinian Holzer very closely (Anaheim is one). A few guys who see him much more than I do think he's ready for a consistent shot at the NHL. He's defensive-minded (a good penalty killer) and doesn't back down. Could be part of a package for something.

Something to keep in mind.

Sounds like a player the Leafs could use.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 17, 2012, 04:55:58 PM
Dallas Dave outed bob as a fraud when he admitted he was a fraud.

You sure? I remember he outed HockeyBreaks for sure, but I didn't think he mentioned bob.

I'm pretty sure he outed bob as well. Like 99.9% sure.

I remember the Dallas Dave thing but not sure if it included Bob or not.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 17, 2012, 06:17:26 PM
About 3 minutes before it was announced Komisarek wasn't taking warm-ups and Schenn was:

@incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
Schenn Scratched #Interesting
7 minutes ago via web


Heh.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 17, 2012, 06:22:04 PM
About 3 minutes before it was announced Komisarek wasn't taking warm-ups and Schenn was:

@incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
Schenn Scratched #Interesting
7 minutes ago via web


Heh.

Still could be Aulie and Gardiner, no?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 17, 2012, 06:24:29 PM
About 3 minutes before it was announced Komisarek wasn't taking warm-ups and Schenn was:

@incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
Schenn Scratched #Interesting
7 minutes ago via web


Heh.

Still could be Aulie and Gardiner, no?

Sorry, not sure I understand. Komisarek is scratched tonight, just thought it was funny bob said that even though it was well-speculated it would be him sitting and not Schenn.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Good, The Bad & the Jokinen on January 17, 2012, 06:32:36 PM
Ah. So basically he's as legit as any of us posters.

**DEAL DONE**. WAITING FOR LEAGUE APPROVAL. LEAFS GET GETZLAF FOR GRABOVSKI & A 1ST!!

That was fun.

So, now we just sit back and wait for the internet to explode. ;D

My god did he really post that?

I think that was RedLeaf having some fun.

Yeah. Same as sideshow bob, or whatever his name is...

Yup I already know how those twitter guys work.  They'll never put "DONE DEAL!" until after they hear it reported somewhere legit and then they'll take credit for it by pointing back to their rumors.  If ANYTHING happens in the next 72 hours, Bob will take full credit, if not he'll say "deal fell through".

Nice to see you are talking about what you do not know anything about. IBN isn't anywhere near eklund and company. If you put aside the blathering and usual net posturing he actually does call more things right then most do. He has nailed more then a few NFL/NBA/MLB trades right on the money. His  record with NHL trades isn't as good but he still has much more credibility then eklund and most of the other toolboxes who wait for the deal to be done and then try to take credit for calling it.

Some people here act like when someone shares a rumor or possibility that it has to come true or the person is a sham. Things fall thru and last second changes often throw a deal out the window. you can't blame someone for that after all.....

That aside I really hope that we don't end up overpaying to get a top6.
Clowe would be nice but not at the cost of kuli and no way in hell i would want malone on this team, to much of a albatross contractwise.

Well, if he's right we should be hearing about the deal just past 2pm tomorrow. I'm sure this is why Schenn & Kadri are sitting out tonight. :)

Schenn, Kadri & a 1st for Getzlaf?

I would seriously make that trade.

Honestly i wouldn't tbh, that seems like one hell of s steep price. It's not like it's only picks after all...there is two solid players, one with a few years exp and one on the rise and what will probably end up a mid round pick. Getz is good but i don't like the idea of gutting our team of prospects just to get one player. Same with thoss old rumors of grabs,kuli,bozak and a couple of prospects for him... those guys produce more together then getz does. but thats probably just me ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 17, 2012, 06:53:13 PM
About 3 minutes before it was announced Komisarek wasn't taking warm-ups and Schenn was:

@incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
Schenn Scratched #Interesting
7 minutes ago via web


Heh.

Still could be Aulie and Gardiner, no?

Sorry, not sure I understand. Komisarek is scratched tonight, just thought it was funny bob said that even though it was well-speculated it would be him sitting and not Schenn.

Ah, never mind.. just dumb, forgot Liles wasn't playing.

Also, was hoping to churn the 'Kadri and Schenn' trade conundrums... :)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 17, 2012, 11:04:51 PM
How's about Rick Nash?

Quote from: SportingNews
Rick Nash would waive no-movement clause if Jackets asked

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-01-05/rick-nash-trade-request-no-trade-clause-blue-jackets-scott-howson-scott-arniel

Man.  Despite all the wishing that Nash would one day end up here I just can't begin to understand how the BJ's could trade him away.  They have had zero success with him, but what else do they have to draw fans in without a star level player? 

As for the Leafs, with the emergence of Lupul and Kessel I would say the priority right now is at centre but would never say no to a top-end winger if there are no centres to be had (which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment).

I just think it's funny that Nash is suddenly "open" to moving.  Should have thought of that when you were a free agent dummy.  He could have been a Leaf already.

yeah.  Its not like things were getting any better in columbus.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 08:20:08 AM
Whatever happens, I hope Burke has his eye on pieces that will be part of the core 3/4 years from now. Please... No stupid deals in an effort to simply make the playoffs.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: the dingo ate my baby on January 18, 2012, 08:34:13 AM
Whatever happens, I hope Burke has his eye on pieces that will be part of the core 3/4 years from now. Please... No stupid deals in an effort to simply make the playoffs.

I think there's a chance you still might see a bit of that (vets, to help a playoff push), but not at a price anyone here would get up in arms about.  If he moves a 1st, or a decent player, it's going to be for someone Burke thinks he's going to get a few good years out of.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 08:54:22 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 18, 2012, 08:58:22 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 09:01:38 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

Right. Kulemin and Kadri... Yeah, I still would have had liked to make that deal. To be honest, I think if Burke had known Frattin was a viable NHL option and Lombardi would be in the line-up as much as he has been, I think he might have done it... Or, at least he should have.

Edit:

Lupul / M. Richards / Kessel
MacArthur / Grabovski / Frattin (or maybe other guy signed w/Connolly $)
Lombardi / Bozak / Armstrong
Crabb(Boyce) / Steckel / Brown

* sigh *
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 18, 2012, 09:04:10 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

Right. Kulemin and Kadri... Yeah, I still would have had liked to make that deal. To be honest, I think if Burke had known Frattin was a viable NHL option and Lombardi would be in the line-up as much as he has been, I think he might have done it... Or, at least he should have.

I think with a bit of hindsight its a better deal.  Most were all about Kuelmin being the best winger on the team (arguably) and I think we all assumed he would take another step forward this year.  Since it hasn't happened and he has regressed offensively, moving him makes more sense now.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 09:07:45 AM
* see above edit *  :-\
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2012, 09:09:34 AM
Not happy at all that we let a team on a back to back night totally manhandle us.  Yes Reimer was at fault for the 3rd goal, and the 2nd goal should never have counted, but still the Leafs should have been in control of the game.  A must-win game like that and the Leafs fall short, doesn't bode well for the playoffs down the stretch.

I really don't know what changes Burke can make to help this team out.  Well I do, but it's not player related.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on January 18, 2012, 09:17:30 AM
Not happy at all that we let a team on a back to back night totally manhandle us.  Yes Reimer was at fault for the 3rd goal, and the 2nd goal should never have counted, but still the Leafs should have been in control of the game.  A must-win game like that and the Leafs fall short, doesn't bode well for the playoffs down the stretch.

I really don't know what changes Burke can make to help this team out.  Well I do, but it's not player related.

How did they manhandle us?  I thought we dominated them for most of the game.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2012, 09:20:19 AM
Not happy at all that we let a team on a back to back night totally manhandle us.  Yes Reimer was at fault for the 3rd goal, and the 2nd goal should never have counted, but still the Leafs should have been in control of the game.  A must-win game like that and the Leafs fall short, doesn't bode well for the playoffs down the stretch.

I really don't know what changes Burke can make to help this team out.  Well I do, but it's not player related.

How did they manhandle us?  I thought we dominated them for most of the game.

Sens 3 - Leafs 2.  Leafs couldn't get a thing going in the 3rd period when they needed it.  It was a reverse of the teams from the old Leafs/Sens playoff days where the Leafs used to get timely goaltending and good physical play to win games.  The fact that Foligno was able to lowbridge Phaneuf without a single guy on the ice getting in his face immediately afterward was distressing.  That's only your captain he almost injured.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on January 18, 2012, 09:23:28 AM
You still failed to explain how they 'manhandled' us.  Like I said, we dominated the vast majority of that game, and Ottawa scored on a weak wrist shot to win it, after scoring on a very debatable tying goal.  I fail to see how weak goaltending/bad luck has to do with being manhandled, nor do I feel like when we were all over Ottawa for vast stretches of the game that we were being manhandled.  And I am certainly not going to take no one fighting Foligno after the clipping play as evidence of being manhandled - in fact I'm glad we took the PP out of it and that Phaneuf settled his score afterwards.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2012, 09:29:03 AM
You still failed to explain how they 'manhandled' us.  Like I said, we dominated the vast majority of that game, and Ottawa scored on a weak wrist shot to win it, after scoring on a very debatable tying goal.  I fail to see how weak goaltending/bad luck has to do with being manhandled, nor do I feel like when we were all over Ottawa for vast stretches of the game that we were being manhandled.  And I am certainly not going to take no one fighting Foligno after the clipping play as evidence of being manhandled - in fact I'm glad we took the PP out of it and that Phaneuf settled his score afterwards.

The Foligno incident is a bad indication of this team's mentality.  Remember back in the days when the Leafs would pound the crap out of the Sens, they would take the PPs instead of fighting back and yet the Leafs won the playoff series.  Now the Leafs are content to let their captain almost get his knees taken out without anyone immediately jumping the guy that did it.  That is pathetic.  But hey, we got the PP.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sneakyray on January 18, 2012, 09:35:34 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

the problem is it wasn't enough (according to the sun) so would you have done kadri, kulemin +?

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: TML fan on January 18, 2012, 09:43:30 AM
You still failed to explain how they 'manhandled' us.  Like I said, we dominated the vast majority of that game, and Ottawa scored on a weak wrist shot to win it, after scoring on a very debatable tying goal.  I fail to see how weak goaltending/bad luck has to do with being manhandled, nor do I feel like when we were all over Ottawa for vast stretches of the game that we were being manhandled.  And I am certainly not going to take no one fighting Foligno after the clipping play as evidence of being manhandled - in fact I'm glad we took the PP out of it and that Phaneuf settled his score afterwards.

The Foligno incident is a bad indication of this team's mentality.  Remember back in the days when the Leafs would pound the crap out of the Sens, they would take the PPs instead of fighting back and yet the Leafs won the playoff series.  Now the Leafs are content to let their captain almost get his knees taken out without anyone immediately jumping the guy that did it.  That is pathetic.  But hey, we got the PP.

Remember we also used to lose evey regular season game by at least 7 goals?

Things happen differently in the playoffs. Winning the game was more important, and retribution is a shallow victory.

Besides, Foligno got his.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2012, 09:53:08 AM
You still failed to explain how they 'manhandled' us.  Like I said, we dominated the vast majority of that game, and Ottawa scored on a weak wrist shot to win it, after scoring on a very debatable tying goal.  I fail to see how weak goaltending/bad luck has to do with being manhandled, nor do I feel like when we were all over Ottawa for vast stretches of the game that we were being manhandled.  And I am certainly not going to take no one fighting Foligno after the clipping play as evidence of being manhandled - in fact I'm glad we took the PP out of it and that Phaneuf settled his score afterwards.

The Foligno incident is a bad indication of this team's mentality.  Remember back in the days when the Leafs would pound the crap out of the Sens, they would take the PPs instead of fighting back and yet the Leafs won the playoff series.  Now the Leafs are content to let their captain almost get his knees taken out without anyone immediately jumping the guy that did it.  That is pathetic.  But hey, we got the PP.

Remember we also used to lose evey regular season game by at least 7 goals?

Things happen differently in the playoffs. Winning the game was more important, and retribution is a shallow victory.

Besides, Foligno got his.

That was due to the fact that they let more go in the playoffs and the Leafs were able to play more physical against the Sens.  This time it would be reversed with the Sens able to play a more physical game against the Leafs.  That's if the Leafs even make the playoffs, which is looking more doubtful with each loss.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 18, 2012, 09:59:14 AM
Zed - it's one loss...there is still a ton of hockey left.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on January 18, 2012, 10:01:09 AM
Zed - it's one loss...there is still a ton of hockey left.

I think you've been around these boards enough to know what happens the day after a loss, right?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 18, 2012, 10:03:44 AM
Zed - it's one loss...there is still a ton of hockey left.

I think you've been around these boards enough to know what happens the day after a loss, right?

I understand yeah..
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 10:24:48 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

the problem is it wasn't enough (according to the sun) so would you have done kadri, kulemin +?

I thought that was Burke deciding against making the deal rather than it not being enough?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 18, 2012, 10:31:39 AM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

As covered, it was Kulemin, not Schenn, and, as the story we were presented goes, he told Holmgren he had to think about it/consult with the rest of the management team/whatever, but to call him back before he accepted another deal. Holmgren then accepted LA's offer without getting back to Burke.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 10:35:52 AM
It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

It's obviously a little easier to say it now with Kadri still a work in progress and Kulemin having trouble scoring but I said at the time that the Richards deal was one that the Leafs should have been all over.

I have a suspicion that if the Burke era ends up being something of a failure that this off-season, where the team desperately needed that #1 centre, there were some available and nothing got done, is going to be seen as a turning point.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 10:38:29 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 10:39:44 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

Um, no. No, he got that one out of the way early.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 10:41:20 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

Um, no. No, he got that one out of the way early.

Oh yeah, right... Thinking his team was better than it was when he did the Kessel deal. Fair enough. Mike Richards #2 then?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Peter D. on January 18, 2012, 10:43:09 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

There's another certain trade that I think really blew up in his face.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 10:44:45 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

From the sounds of what Busta said, no I don't think so, in fact even the initial deal that I hated didn't turn out completely bad with Kessel. Right now I think signing Komi is probably the worst move of them all.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 10:47:23 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

There's another certain trade that I think really blew up in his face.

Yeah (see my previous post.) If Getzlaf or Ryan is really available (and I'm not sure they are) then I do hope Burke remembers his reluctance with the Richards and pulls the trigger. - Guys like these don't come around often.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 18, 2012, 10:47:44 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

From the sounds of what Busta said, no I don't think so, in fact even the initial deal that I hated didn't turn out completely bad with Kessel. Right now I think signing Komi is probably the worst move of them all.

Worst thing about the Komisarek deal is the NMC.  Why GMs continue to hand these things out to players that haven't even played 1 game for your team yet I have no idea.  Would be nice to just bury Komisarek in the minors right now but we can't move him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 10:50:03 AM
I actually dislike not doing the M. Richards deal more than the Komisarek deal and I HATE the Komisarek deal!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 10:51:04 AM
Oh yeah, right... Thinking his team was better than it was when he did the Kessel deal. Fair enough. Mike Richards #2 then?

It's hard to label something that didn't happen a blunder because we don't know the conditions of it. If the story we heard is true then Burke may never have really had the chance if Philly genuinely preferred the package from LA and you can't fault him for that. If the story isn't true then, for all we know, anything could be true. Holmgren may have never intended to deal either guy to Toronto and was just trying to set a price.

So, yeah, still a ways to go to touch the Kessel trade, Komisarek signing and the lack of a competitive offer to Brad Richards.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 10:53:28 AM
Here's another thing I'm thinking about as I look towards next year... Assuming we resign Grabovski and Kulemin and retain MacArthur, we're looking at over a ~13 mil cap hit on these 3 for next year... Is anyone else kind of uncomfortable with that number?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 18, 2012, 10:54:24 AM
The fact that Komisarek is eating up so much salary cap is absolutely tragic, that money could be put to so much better use.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 18, 2012, 10:55:14 AM
Here's another thing I'm thinking about as I look towards next year... Assuming we resign Grabovski and Kulemin and retain MacArthur, we're looking at over a ~13 mil cap hit on these 3 for next year... Is anyone else kind of uncomfortable with that number?
Nik Kulemin needs to get his arse in gear or that number is going to be significantly lower.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 10:55:23 AM
Oh yeah, right... Thinking his team was better than it was when he did the Kessel deal. Fair enough. Mike Richards #2 then?

It's hard to label something that didn't happen a blunder because we don't know the conditions of it. If the story we heard is true then Burke may never have really had the chance if Philly genuinely preferred the package from LA and you can't fault him for that. If the story isn't true then, for all we know, anything could be true. Holmgren may have never intended to deal either guy to Toronto and was just trying to set a price.

So, yeah, still a ways to go to touch the Kessel trade, Komisarek signing and the lack of a competitive offer to Brad Richards.

Personally, I'm glad we stayed away from Brad Richards. Besides, I think he was signing with the Rangers regardless of what our offer was.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 10:57:27 AM
Is NOT doing the Kulemin + Kadri for Richards deal Burke's biggest blunder so far?

From the sounds of what Busta said, no I don't think so, in fact even the initial deal that I hated didn't turn out completely bad with Kessel. Right now I think signing Komi is probably the worst move of them all.

Worst thing about the Komisarek deal is the NMC.  Why GMs continue to hand these things out to players that haven't even played 1 game for your team yet I have no idea.  Would be nice to just bury Komisarek in the minors right now but we can't move him.

Yeah, it's the problem for sure.

It's easier to say in hindsight but free agents can ask for what they want and Burke obviously felt like defence had to be addressed. I still hold hope that he could be moved, fwiw, more realistically next year, still.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 10:58:40 AM
Here's another thing I'm thinking about as I look towards next year... Assuming we resign Grabovski and Kulemin and retain MacArthur, we're looking at over a ~13 mil cap hit on these 3 for next year... Is anyone else kind of uncomfortable with that number?

I'm no mathologist but that assumes Grabs/Kulemin get 10 million between them which, quite frankly, does not seem overly likely right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 11:00:59 AM
Here's another thing I'm thinking about as I look towards next year... Assuming we resign Grabovski and Kulemin and retain MacArthur, we're looking at over a ~13 mil cap hit on these 3 for next year... Is anyone else kind of uncomfortable with that number?

I'm no mathologist but that assumes Grabs/Kulemin get 10 million between them which, quite frankly, does not seem overly likely right now.

~4.5 for Grabs? ~4 for Kulemin? + 3.25 (Mac) = ~12 (sorry bad math) Still, I don't much like that total for these three.  :-\ 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 18, 2012, 11:01:40 AM
I'm no mathologist but that assumes Grabs/Kulemin get 10 million between them which, quite frankly, does not seem overly likely right now.

Yeah. Depending on contract length, we're likely looking at $2.75M-$3.25M for Kulemin (unless he really picks up the pace over the rest of the season) and ~$5M for Grabovski, putting the cap hit for the line at ~$11M, which, for is quite reasonable for a 2nd line if they find a production level somewhere between this season and last season.

Of course, all these numbers depend on what happens with the new CBA - they could be a lot lower because of a lower ceiling or a little higher because of a higher ceiling.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 11:03:55 AM
I'm no mathologist but that assumes Grabs/Kulemin get 10 million between them which, quite frankly, does not seem overly likely right now.

Yeah. Depending on contract length, we're likely looking at $2.75M-$3.25M for Kulemin (unless he really picks up the pace over the rest of the season) and ~$5M for Grabovski, putting the cap hit for the line at ~$11M, which, for is quite reasonable for a 2nd line if they find a production level somewhere between this season and last season.

Wow! We're about a mil. apart on what we think Kulemin might get... For the Leafs sake, I hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 11:05:05 AM
~4.5 for Grabs? ~4 for Kulemin? + 3.25 (Mac) = ~12 (sorry bad math) Still, I don't much like that total for these three.  :-\

Right now Kulemin is on pace for a 9 goal, 32 point season. If he asks for and receives a four million dollar a year contract from Burke then we've got significantly bigger problems than what the second line is making.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 18, 2012, 11:05:46 AM
Wow! We're about a mil. apart on what we think Kulemin might get... For the Leafs sake, I hope I'm wrong.
You think they would give him that amount based on current production?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 18, 2012, 11:06:09 AM
~4.5 for Grabs? ~4 for Kulemin? + 3.25 (Mac) = ~12 (sorry bad math) Still, I don't much like that total for these three.  :-\

Right now Kulemin is on pace for a 9 goal, 32 point season. If he asks for and receives a four million dollar a year contract from Burke and Burke gives it to him then we've got significantly bigger problems than what the second line is making.
Bingo!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 18, 2012, 11:06:13 AM
Wow! We're about a mil. apart on what we think Kulemin might get... For the Leafs sake, I hope I'm wrong.

The problem with Kulemin is that his 30 goal season shoudl get him a raise, but, his lack of production this season will really counteract that significantly. $4M for a guy who has only cracked the 20 goal mark once and isn't a UFA? That just seems very unlikely. He's very much looking at a contract similar to MacArthur.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 18, 2012, 11:07:26 AM
Personally, I'm glad we stayed away from Brad Richards. Besides, I think he was signing with the Rangers regardless of what our offer was.

Agreed. That really ended up being about the most unsurprising location choice since Hamhuis went to Vancouver.  Any interest shown towards teams other than NYR was pretty obviously done to up the Rangers offer.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 11:09:02 AM
I'm no mathologist but that assumes Grabs/Kulemin get 10 million between them which, quite frankly, does not seem overly likely right now.

Yeah. Depending on contract length, we're likely looking at $2.75M-$3.25M for Kulemin (unless he really picks up the pace over the rest of the season) and ~$5M for Grabovski, putting the cap hit for the line at ~$11M, which, for is quite reasonable for a 2nd line if they find a production level somewhere between this season and last season.

Wow! We're about a mil. apart on what we think Kulemin might get... For the Leafs sake, I hope I'm wrong.

Yeah, from what's been posted and the fact that he's still a rfa I don't think he's going to get that much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 11:13:23 AM
~4.5 for Grabs? ~4 for Kulemin? + 3.25 (Mac) = ~12 (sorry bad math) Still, I don't much like that total for these three.  :-\

Right now Kulemin is on pace for a 9 goal, 32 point season. If he asks for and receives a four million dollar a year contract from Burke and Burke gives it to him then we've got significantly bigger problems than what the second line is making.

Fair enough... Though I think his agent will certainly try to argue he's worth 4. As Busta points out, perhaps a MacArthur like hit is where it will fall... Maybe slightly north of that though on a longer term. 3.5 mil X 4?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 11:14:30 AM
Personally, I'm glad we stayed away from Brad Richards.

I'm not. I think Richards, for NY this year, has been exactly the player the Leafs are missing and even if his numbers aren't eye popping(which shouldn't be a huge surprise given the Rangers style of play) it's still only the first year of his deal.

Besides, I think he was signing with the Rangers regardless of what our offer was.

I think, like the Mike Richards thing, there's no way to know about that. Not even pressing the issue, however, is the point there.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 11:16:20 AM
Fair enough... Though I think his agent will certainly try to argue he's worth 4. As Busta points out, perhaps a MacArthur like hit is where it will fall... Maybe slightly north of that though on a longer term. 3.5 mil X 4?

I don't know if that's a question but I sincerely doubt that the Leafs or Kulemin would be inclined to sign a long term deal based on the season Kulemin is having.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 11:18:01 AM
Personally, I'm glad we stayed away from Brad Richards.

I'm not. I think Richards, for NY this year, has been exactly the player the Leafs are missing and even if his numbers aren't eye popping(which shouldn't be a huge surprise given the Rangers style of play) it's still only the first year of his deal.

Besides, I think he was signing with the Rangers regardless of what our offer was.

I think, like the Mike Richards thing, there's no way to know about that. Not even pressing the issue, however, is the point there.

Burke put in an offer he thought was fair ot at least an offer he was comfortable with. I'm not a Brad Richard's current deal with the Rangers... Far too much term in my opinion. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 11:21:47 AM
Burke put in an offer he thought was fair ot at least an offer he was comfortable with.

Ok but, again, my original statement is that Burke didn't make a financially competitive offer not that he didn't make any offer. Regardless of the value Richards could have brought to the team, Burke's offer wasn't on the map.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 11:22:49 AM
Personally, I'm glad we stayed away from Brad Richards. Besides, I think he was signing with the Rangers regardless of what our offer was.

Agreed. That really ended up being about the most unsurprising location choice since Hamhuis went to Vancouver.  Any interest shown towards teams other than NYR was pretty obviously done to up the Rangers offer.

I'm ok with it too, no disrespect to Brad, he's a helluva hockey player but the Leafs weren't really ready to contend and by the time they are I don't think he would be as effective or at least his price performance would be on the decline, that's a loooong contract too.

Frankly, looking at the other Richards and what it might have cost to get him, if the Leafs have a sniff at a player like Getzlaf ( and I don't know that they do ) I'd rather they had the assets to try for a deal like that and again that's with no disrespect to Mike but I don't see him as a #1C. I wouldn't have been really unhappy to get either player just that the team composition still is not close to championship calibre to me.

Landing both Richards would have been interesting, though I suspect Toronto was never really in the picture for Brad.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 18, 2012, 11:23:42 AM
Besides, I think he was signing with the Rangers regardless of what our offer was.

I think, like the Mike Richards thing, there's no way to know about that. Not even pressing the issue, however, is the point there.

Nik, let's be honest... he was signing with the Rangers unless we blew the doors off.

Some things don't have to be explicitly outlined.  He was going there plain and simple.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 11:25:56 AM
Nik, let's be honest... he was signing with the Rangers unless we blew the doors off.

I'd ask for anything resembling evidence to that effect but I asked that in the summer as well and, well, my cup didn't exactly runneth over. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 11:28:58 AM
Fair enough... Though I think his agent will certainly try to argue he's worth 4. As Busta points out, perhaps a MacArthur like hit is where it will fall... Maybe slightly north of that though on a longer term. 3.5 mil X 4?

I don't know if that's a question but I sincerely doubt that the Leafs or Kulemin would be inclined to sign a long term deal based on the season Kulemin is having.

I'm not married to Kulemin or anything but I certainly think he's capable of producing at the level deserving of a contract like that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 18, 2012, 11:33:11 AM
I'm not married to Kulemin or anything but I certainly think he's capable of producing at the level deserving of a contract like that.

Sure. He did it last year. Being capable of it is one thing but proving he's capable of doing it consistently is another. Again, this isn't a case of a guy going from scoring 60 points to scoring 50. It's a guy who's point total is about half of what it was and his goal total is a third of what it was.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 18, 2012, 11:40:12 AM
Some people mentioned that perhaps the 'Second Line' from last year where having career years and I didn't want to believe it.  It's looking like they might well have been right.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 11:41:28 AM
Fair enough... Though I think his agent will certainly try to argue he's worth 4. As Busta points out, perhaps a MacArthur like hit is where it will fall... Maybe slightly north of that though on a longer term. 3.5 mil X 4?

I don't know if that's a question but I sincerely doubt that the Leafs or Kulemin would be inclined to sign a long term deal based on the season Kulemin is having.

I'm not married to Kulemin or anything but I certainly think he's capable of producing at the level deserving of a contract like that.

We'll have a better idea once the full season is played out but if capability is the question then the Leafs might want more evidence and a shorter term deal seems more likely at this point to me. If I have it right he has two more years of rfa status? I'd think about a one year deal with an eye to something longer term after that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on January 18, 2012, 11:48:52 AM
Yeah, my guess if Kulemin gets something like a 1 or 2 year 3M contract
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 18, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
Yeah, my guess if Kulemin gets something like a 1 or 2 year 3M contract

Groovy then.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: TML fan on January 18, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
You still failed to explain how they 'manhandled' us.  Like I said, we dominated the vast majority of that game, and Ottawa scored on a weak wrist shot to win it, after scoring on a very debatable tying goal.  I fail to see how weak goaltending/bad luck has to do with being manhandled, nor do I feel like when we were all over Ottawa for vast stretches of the game that we were being manhandled.  And I am certainly not going to take no one fighting Foligno after the clipping play as evidence of being manhandled - in fact I'm glad we took the PP out of it and that Phaneuf settled his score afterwards.

The Foligno incident is a bad indication of this team's mentality.  Remember back in the days when the Leafs would pound the crap out of the Sens, they would take the PPs instead of fighting back and yet the Leafs won the playoff series.  Now the Leafs are content to let their captain almost get his knees taken out without anyone immediately jumping the guy that did it.  That is pathetic.  But hey, we got the PP.

Remember we also used to lose evey regular season game by at least 7 goals?

Things happen differently in the playoffs. Winning the game was more important, and retribution is a shallow victory.

Besides, Foligno got his.

That was due to the fact that they let more go in the playoffs and the Leafs were able to play more physical against the Sens. 

So, the Leafs won by virtue of the refs letting them cheat more? Playing a physical game and cheating are different things.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on January 18, 2012, 12:29:27 PM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

the problem is it wasn't enough (according to the sun) so would you have done kadri, kulemin +?

I thought that was Burke deciding against making the deal rather than it not being enough?

I thought Kulemin and Kadri was for Carter and Richards would have cost more. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, though.

I also recall Burke saying no to that deal (Carter) rather than it not being enough. I don't remember hearing the exact cost of Richards in terms of assets.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 12:49:38 PM
Burke confirmed Philly asked for Schenn and Kadri for Mike Richards last summer and he declined, correct?  :-\ In hindsight, I think I'd have done that. Good on both the PP and PK and likes to get physical.

It was Kulemin and Kadri.

I would have done it also.  Richards is a heck of a hockey player.  Real solid 2-ways.  Leader, center, etc.

A lot of people say whoever gets the best player wins the trade and Mike Richards is clearly the best player in the deal (cue nutman!).

the problem is it wasn't enough (according to the sun) so would you have done kadri, kulemin +?

I thought that was Burke deciding against making the deal rather than it not being enough?

I thought Kulemin and Kadri was for Carter and Richards would have cost more. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, though.

I also recall Burke saying no to that deal (Carter) rather than it not being enough. I don't remember hearing the exact cost of Richards in terms of assets.

Maybe that's it, I don't know for sure now but I recall hearing about it.

My kingdom for a source!!!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 18, 2012, 06:03:05 PM
I thought Kulemin and Kadri was for Carter and Richards would have cost more. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, though.

I also recall Burke saying no to that deal (Carter) rather than it not being enough. I don't remember hearing the exact cost of Richards in terms of assets.

Philly asked for Kadri and Kulemin in exchange for Carter, and Burke said declined. After Carter was traded they offered Richards for the same package and Burke said he'd consider it this time. Philly then made the trade with LA before Burke got back to Holmgrem.

At least, that's what was speculated.

edit: Found the tweets from Dreger:

Flyers asked for Kadri and Kulemin from the Leafs for Mike Richards. Toronto said they would consider it, but never heard back from Phi.

Leafs were also interested in Carter and Kadri was discussed, but Tor wouldn't include Kulemin to close deal for Carter.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bender on January 18, 2012, 06:09:50 PM
I thought Kulemin and Kadri was for Carter and Richards would have cost more. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, though.

I also recall Burke saying no to that deal (Carter) rather than it not being enough. I don't remember hearing the exact cost of Richards in terms of assets.

Philly asked for Kadri and Kulemin in exchange for Carter, and Burke said declined. After Carter was traded they offered Richards for the same package and Burke said he'd consider it this time. Philly then made the trade with LA before Burke got back to Holmgrem.

At least, that's what was speculated.

edit: Found the tweets from Dreger:

Flyers asked for Kadri and Kulemin from the Leafs for Mike Richards. Toronto said they would consider it, but never heard back from Phi.

Leafs were also interested in Carter and Kadri was discussed, but Tor wouldn't include Kulemin to close deal for Carter.


I'd do it for Mike Richards, but definitely not Jeff Carter.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 18, 2012, 06:16:46 PM
I thought Kulemin and Kadri was for Carter and Richards would have cost more. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, though.

I also recall Burke saying no to that deal (Carter) rather than it not being enough. I don't remember hearing the exact cost of Richards in terms of assets.

Philly asked for Kadri and Kulemin in exchange for Carter, and Burke said declined. After Carter was traded they offered Richards for the same package and Burke said he'd consider it this time. Philly then made the trade with LA before Burke got back to Holmgrem.

At least, that's what was speculated.

edit: Found the tweets from Dreger:

Flyers asked for Kadri and Kulemin from the Leafs for Mike Richards. Toronto said they would consider it, but never heard back from Phi.

Leafs were also interested in Carter and Kadri was discussed, but Tor wouldn't include Kulemin to close deal for Carter.


Thanks, that makes a bit more sense to me now and it probably means Philly wasn't prepared to accept Kadri and Kulemin for Mike with the LA offer on the table or they probably would have got back to Burke ( if that's all true ).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Good, The Bad & the Jokinen on January 19, 2012, 10:55:21 PM
#IBN is tweeting that medical clearence for JVR has been received and all that holds up the potential deal is they are having trouble deciding on who else comes with JVR in a deal for Schenn and a as of yet unnamed prospect. Apparently BB wants Read as well and philly doesn't want to part with him.

He also states that Philly approached BB in dec with the proposed deal.

Interesting bit of info there is it turns out to be true.
Anyone know anything about Read?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 19, 2012, 10:59:37 PM
Isn't Read leading all rookies in scoring? I don't know, JVR + Read for Schenn seems a bit of a stretch to me to say the least. Personally, I'd do it straight up... Not sure Philly needs to be the team to add the kicker... but what do I know?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on January 19, 2012, 11:08:07 PM
What is IBN?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 19, 2012, 11:13:27 PM
What is IBN?

Exactly.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 20, 2012, 12:33:55 AM
What is IBN?

Incomprehensible Bull Network?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on January 20, 2012, 01:40:31 AM
What is IBN?

Incomprehensible Bull Network?

Incomprehensibly Believed Nutbar
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: L K on January 20, 2012, 08:07:12 AM
Really?  I have a hard time seeing that as a definite win at the time.  Kulemin was coming off a big season where he looked like he was hitting his stride.  He offered strong defensive play, some physicality (not bone crushing hits like we saw a week ago) and maybe could be a guy who put up 25-30 goals a year.

Richards was coming off two years of 60 point seasons, while being a good defensive player and was partially being traded because of some of his off-ice behaviours in Philly.  I'm not disappointed that we didn't acquire him, even factoring in Kulemin's struggles.  Heck, despite Kulemin's abysmal season, Richards is only ahead of him by 8 points.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 20, 2012, 09:22:44 AM
#IBN is tweeting that medical clearence for JVR has been received and all that holds up the potential deal is they are having trouble deciding on who else comes with JVR in a deal for Schenn and a as of yet unnamed prospect. Apparently BB wants Read as well and philly doesn't want to part with him.

He also states that Philly approached BB in dec with the proposed deal.

Interesting bit of info there is it turns out to be true.
Anyone know anything about Read?

I'm pretty sure Read would not be in any deal with the Leafs.  He was an unsigned college guy, but his skating is off the charts.  They say that he just managed to put it all together a couple of years ago.  I don't see how he is a part of any deal to Toronto.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 20, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
What is IBN?

it's the bowel disease of the internet.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on January 20, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
What is IBN?

it's the bowel disease of the internet.

 ;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on January 20, 2012, 10:00:13 AM
What is IBN?

it's the bowel disease of the internet.

So... IBN is the Intestinal Bug Network.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on January 20, 2012, 10:40:26 AM
#IBN is tweeting that medical clearence for JVR has been received and all that holds up the potential deal is they are having trouble deciding on who else comes with JVR in a deal for Schenn and a as of yet unnamed prospect. Apparently BB wants Read as well and philly doesn't want to part with him.

He also states that Philly approached BB in dec with the proposed deal.

Interesting bit of info there is it turns out to be true.
Anyone know anything about Read?

I'm pretty sure Read would not be in any deal with the Leafs.  He was an unsigned college guy, but his skating is off the charts.  They say that he just managed to put it all together a couple of years ago.  I don't see how he is a part of any deal to Toronto.

Philly is desperate?  It wouldn't be the first time an overpayment took place.  That said. maybe I'm wearing rose coloured glasses and just hoping it's true.

I'm with Sarge, I think JVR for Schenn straight up is a coup for Toronto.

On second thought, maybe Holmgren and Burke have their lines crossed ala first round pick fiasco in the Kessel trade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 20, 2012, 01:23:27 PM
So Jeff Carter's NTC doesn't kick in 'till this summer, right? He's had a horrible, injury riddled season and even when in, hasn't been the same player he was in Philly. I find it hard to believe that the "real" Jeff Carter is the one we've seen (er, rarely seen) with the Blue Jackets... Anyone think he's available? If so, do you think he's still worth looking at?   
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 20, 2012, 01:38:10 PM
So Jeff Carter's NTC doesn't kick in 'till this summer, right? He's had a horrible, injury riddled season and even when in, hasn't been the same player he was in Philly. I find it hard to believe that the "real" Jeff Carter is the one we've seen (er, rarely seen) with the Blue Jackets... Anyone think he's available? If so, do you think he's still worth looking at?   

I'm very hesitant because of the term.  Like you, I don't think this is the real Jeff Carter.  He's a 30-40 goal scorer, 70+ point guy.  Wicked shot, great release, solid enough 2-way game and although you'd probably like him to be a little more physical, he's no chump either.  Great size, good hands, close to the complete package really.

I think it goes without saying though that he could/would benefit from a change in scenary.  Injuries and sulking have basically killed his season.  Similar to Lupul actually, a healthy, happy season would rejeuvante the guy. 

I love his $5.27M cap hit.  I hate his 11 year term.  Although, the last 3 years are basically "buy out years" where he is getting $2M or so... so realistically, it looks like an 8 year deal.  Still a little too long.  As we've seen before, WAY too much can happen in the interim.

I'd probaby pass solely because in 5-6 years who knows what the hell we could be getting?  If it's a Scott Gomez situation, we'd be fudged (dumping $5M a year for 5+ years is probably not going to happen).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 20, 2012, 01:59:22 PM
I'm very hesitant because of the term.  Like you, I don't think this is the real Jeff Carter.  He's a 30-40 goal scorer, 70+ point guy. Wicked shot, great release, solid enough 2-way game and although you'd probably like him to be a little more physical, he's no chump either.  Great size, good hands, close to the complete package really.

This may be nitpicking a little, but, being that he's only surpassed 66 points once, I'd say he's more of a 30ish goal, 60 point guy.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Good, The Bad & the Jokinen on January 20, 2012, 04:52:10 PM
#IBN is tweeting that medical clearence for JVR has been received and all that holds up the potential deal is they are having trouble deciding on who else comes with JVR in a deal for Schenn and a as of yet unnamed prospect. Apparently BB wants Read as well and philly doesn't want to part with him.

He also states that Philly approached BB in dec with the proposed deal.

Interesting bit of info there is it turns out to be true.
Anyone know anything about Read?

I'm pretty sure Read would not be in any deal with the Leafs.  He was an unsigned college guy, but his skating is off the charts.  They say that he just managed to put it all together a couple of years ago.  I don't see how he is a part of any deal to Toronto.

Philly is desperate?  It wouldn't be the first time an overpayment took place.  That said. maybe I'm wearing rose coloured glasses and just hoping it's true.

I'm with Sarge, I think JVR for Schenn straight up is a coup for Toronto.

On second thought, maybe Holmgren and Burke have their lines crossed ala first round pick fiasco in the Kessel trade.

I didn't know anything about read at the time I posted, I assumed wrongly that he was a prospect. After seeing his numbers this year and his scouting report I would think that we'd have to make it a good prospect to have him included in the deal. He also is very cap friendly for his production which makes me think that philly would need to keep him simply because they are going to need some help that way at some point.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 21, 2012, 02:06:35 AM
#IBN is tweeting that medical clearence for JVR has been received and all that holds up the potential deal is they are having trouble deciding on who else comes with JVR in a deal for Schenn and a as of yet unnamed prospect. Apparently BB wants Read as well and philly doesn't want to part with him.

He also announced on Sunday that a deal will be announced on Wednesday at the latest. He also made it pretty clear that the only thing holding the trade up was medical reports. Now it seems like the two sides are pretty far apart.

It's almost as if he's making things up as he goes. Almost.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 21, 2012, 09:13:45 AM
I was listening to the Sportsnet crew last night and they were thinking Philly might be a spot Suter winds up and it made a lot of sense to me. It would end any discussion over Schenn going there and then I though, hmmm maybe Schenn would be a decent replacement FOR Suter. Does Schenn + Kulemin + a pick or prospect get us into the conversation for him?

I'm just thinkinging 3.6 (Schenn) + ~ 3 (Kulemin) for next year = ~Phaneuf money and I think Suter is likely to get that. Is it crazy to spend ~13 mil on these two defencemen or would it be worth it having them anchoring our blue-line for some time? 

Phaneuf, Suter, Liles, Gunnarsson, Franson, Gardiner, Aulie... Maybe buy-out Komisarek (or keep him.) - That um, a pretty nice group!

Edit: It would then allow Nashville to trade a forward for a bit of cap space.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 21, 2012, 10:31:17 AM
Maybe buy-out Komisarek (or keep him.)

Cody is a keeper. If you need to move some defencemen, give up Schenn, Komi and perhaps Aulie, we seem to have plenty in the system. And we can give Finger the Finger!

Certainly I agree with you assessment about Komi.  But realistically what team in the NHL would take him, and his contract (for another 2 1/2 years)?

.................

Possibly Aulie might have the highest upside of any of the younger defencemen on the Leafs.  He is strong, and has good awareness, and is quite solid defensively.

I have a suggestion with Komisarek.  Reading reports on him in the last year like this one:

" In one year with the Canadiens, Komisarek was statistically cutting edge. In 2007-08, he led all defenceman in the NHL in hits and also was the runaway leader in blocked shots. It was that kind of 20-plus minute physical warrior the Leafs thought they were signing as a free agent."

"This one isn't finishing well for him, even if it may be for the team. Komisarek ranks 29th in the NHL in hits among defencemen and 69th in blocked shots, his former speciality.

Under normal business circumstances, the Leafs would have a decision to make at the end of the season: Do they keep Komisarek, and continue to pay top defenceman money for a third-pair defender? Or do they buy out the final three years of his contract?"

""No chance," said Burke, when asked about a possible buy-out. "We love what he adds from a character standpoint. His play has improved and we think that it can and will continue."

To spend time with Komisarek, it is easy to understand Burke's faith in him. He is an engaging individual who can light up a dressing room by his mere presence and is clearly one of the more mature members of a very young hockey team. To know him is to like him and to believe in him, which makes the past two seasons all the more difficult to comprehend. "

Then last month I read:

Blues Eyeing another D man (http://www.truehockey.com/articles/Blues-Eyeing-Another-D-man)

"Armstrong scouts other NHL teams as much as any GM out there. This is why people get all alarmed when he’s spotted watching Toronto play Boston or Pittsburgh battle Washington as he recently has."

"If you look around the NHL there are a few things the best teams tend to have in common. They’re deep up the middle and they have at least three legitimate, quality NHL D-men who can play in all situations."

"Sure they have some players currently developing into top NHL D-men in Alex Pietrangelo and Kevin Shattenkirk. Both players are relatively “green” though when you compare them to the top defenseman playing for San Jose, Chicago, Detroit, Nashville, and Vancouver."

"Multiple sources tell me Armstrong will likely eye another D-man before the trade deadline. Landing a defenseman who can eat a ton of minutes and play in all situations is likely what the Blues will covet. If the Blues are successful in landing a true experienced D-man they would set themselves up very nicely.

This player may not become available until we get closer to the deadline. If Armstrong can locate a team looking to dump a salary don’t be shocked if the Blues add a defenseman sometime down the line."


The biggest question I have is Komisarek's Limited NTC.  When he submitted his list of teams did it include St Louis??  I guess he would quickly waive his NTC anyway.  Would Burke and Leafs management move Komisarek though?  They seems VERY high on his mature/calming presence on the team.

Lastly, Aulie is a keeper in my books because he can play solid minutes as a depth dman and can fight.  As I have tried to follow him I have noticed that he has fought even AHL heavyweights and did well. He is a good enough "sherriff" in my books to make a goon not necessary in the Leafs lineup.  I would just hate for Aulie to be looked upon for staged fights and crap like that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2012, 01:44:42 PM
A thought occurred to me the other day, and, as unlikely as moving Komisarek's contract may be, I thought I'd put it out there any ways.

Rumour has it, the Islanders are looking for help on their blueline. When Komisarek was a UFA, the rumour was the final two teams he was considering were the Leafs and the Islanders. Komisarek's from the area, so, there's definitely a possibility they are on the list of teams he's willing to be traded to, while, at the same time, there's also the indication that Snow was interested in adding him to their blueline in the not so distant past. The Islanders definitely have the cap space to add Komisarek (whether or not they have the actual dollars is certainly open for debate). On top of that, if there's any GM in the league that I can see taking on a contract like Komisarek's, it's Garth Snow. Obviously, I wouldn't be expecting much/anything of value in return should any deal go down there (though, with Burke and Snow involved in the deal, you never know), but, if ever there was a possibility to move Komisarek, the Islanders seem like the most likely destination. I doubt anything happens here, but, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 21, 2012, 03:48:23 PM
I agree on Komi.  It seems to me Burke is building up the guy because he wants to trade him for something like he did with Tosk and Beau and even that little rat guy.  What was his name?  It was like Blake or something and if memory serves he robbed JFJ blind.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 21, 2012, 09:44:23 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rob on January 21, 2012, 09:49:07 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected! 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sneakyray on January 21, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected!

this loss tonight does kind of feel like the loss to the canucks on saturday night a few years ago when burke blew up the team on sunday morning trading half the team for phaneuf and the other half for giguere.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 21, 2012, 09:53:30 PM

Tank Nation resurrected!

... and who better to do it than Gary Oldman?

Edit: Though I'm thinking more of a shake-up then a tank.
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 21, 2012, 09:55:23 PM
What a horrible effort tonight. I can't even begin to understand how they weren't going extra hard all game. This wasn't Columbus coming in where you have no motivation to beat, half the crowd was in Habs jerseys. You would think the Leafs players would respond and play their hearts out. I really hope Burke pulls the trigger on SOMETHING. I don't have any issue with breaking up any perceived "chemistry" these guys have. They have none.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 22, 2012, 04:45:00 AM
What a horrible effort tonight. I can't even begin to understand how they weren't going extra hard all game. This wasn't Columbus coming in where you have no motivation to beat, half the crowd was in Habs jerseys. You would think the Leafs players would respond and play their hearts out. I really hope Burke pulls the trigger on SOMETHING. I don't have any issue with breaking up any perceived "chemistry" these guys have. They have none.


Consistency, my dear Watson, is something they don't have.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 22, 2012, 03:18:20 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected!

this loss tonight does kind of feel like the loss to the canucks on saturday night a few years ago when burke blew up the team on sunday morning trading half the team for phaneuf and the other half for giguere.

I would say the keepers on the team are Kessel, Phaneuf, Schenn and Kadri in that order.  Everyone else I wouldn't miss.
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 22, 2012, 03:19:42 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected!

this loss tonight does kind of feel like the loss to the canucks on saturday night a few years ago when burke blew up the team on sunday morning trading half the team for phaneuf and the other half for giguere.

I would say the keepers on the team are Kessel, Phaneuf, Schenn and Kadri in that order.  Everyone else I wouldn't miss.

I don't know what people see in Schenn. I would not miss him at all. Gunnarson is the main part of the defensive d-man.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Lee-bo on January 22, 2012, 05:28:33 PM
I just read that Burke said he was in Chicago. My brother is a big Blackhawks fan and he said Chicago had a few scouts at the game last night. I have no sources other then hearsay, but take it for what it's worth. Maybe I should have posted this in the rumors category but Burke did tweet he was in Chicago during the AHL outdoor game.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 22, 2012, 06:45:17 PM
Like many of us, I'm getting antsy expecting a trade, but, at this point, I wouldn't be expecting anything significant until after the All Star break. So, at least that's another week until the trade everyone's been waiting for might happen.
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 22, 2012, 08:33:15 PM
Screw Burke that's what I say. Maybe it's all the booze talking cause I'm half hammered from Chinese New Year but I'm expecting another non playoff year. Can't wait to hear all the excuses Burke pulls out this time and how "upset" he is Leafs didn't make it again.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: the dingo ate my baby on January 22, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
I like Komisarek- but on this speculation about other teams being interested- I can't imagine there's a team that actually covets that contract (unless they have a similar contract to dump).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 22, 2012, 08:46:10 PM
I wonder if Patrick Kane is available.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Potvin29 on January 22, 2012, 08:51:25 PM
Screw Burke that's what I say. Maybe it's all the booze talking cause I'm half hammered from Chinese New Year but I'm expecting another non playoff year. Can't wait to hear all the excuses Burke pulls out this time and how "upset" he is Leafs didn't make it again.

I think it would really stick it to Burke if you protested his tenure by refusing to post about the Leafs for a whole week.  It'll be like your own personal Wikipedia blackout.

Thus, I do not expect a reply to this post.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Green Leaf on January 22, 2012, 09:12:54 PM
I wonder if Patrick Kane is available.

Apparently he feels that his team doesn't appreciate him as he would like them to... that's what I heard...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 22, 2012, 09:24:29 PM
I wonder if Patrick Kane is available.

Apparently he feels that his team doesn't appreciate him as he would like them to... that's what I heard...

Yeah I've heard more than a few disparaging things about him - he sounds like a little pain in the ass.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 22, 2012, 09:31:03 PM
Screw Burke that's what I say. Maybe it's all the booze talking cause I'm half hammered from Chinese New Year but I'm expecting another non playoff year. Can't wait to hear all the excuses Burke pulls out this time and how "upset" he is Leafs didn't make it again.

I think it would really stick it to Burke if you protested his tenure by refusing to post about the Leafs for a whole week.  It'll be like your own personal Wikipedia blackout.

Thus, I do not expect a reply to this post.

Online petitions are far more effective these days.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 22, 2012, 09:54:07 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected!

this loss tonight does kind of feel like the loss to the canucks on saturday night a few years ago when burke blew up the team on sunday morning trading half the team for phaneuf and the other half for giguere.

I would say the keepers on the team are Kessel, Phaneuf, Schenn and Kadri in that order.  Everyone else I wouldn't miss.

I don't know what people see in Schenn. I would not miss him at all. Gunnarson is the main part of the defensive d-man.

Schenn has everything Gunnarson has and he brings a physical element which Gunnarson lacks.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 22, 2012, 10:33:53 PM
Poor Schenn. :[
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Jalili on January 22, 2012, 10:38:51 PM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected!

this loss tonight does kind of feel like the loss to the canucks on saturday night a few years ago when burke blew up the team on sunday morning trading half the team for phaneuf and the other half for giguere.

I would say the keepers on the team are Kessel, Phaneuf, Schenn and Kadri in that order.  Everyone else I wouldn't miss.

I don't know what people see in Schenn. I would not miss him at all. Gunnarson is the main part of the defensive d-man.

Schenn has everything Gunnarson has and he brings a physical element which Gunnarson lacks.

If you ignore the fact that Gunnarsson is a much better defensive player than Schenn, then maybe.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 23, 2012, 12:16:31 AM
If you ignore the fact that Gunnarsson is a much better defensive player than Schenn, then maybe.

And has some sort of offensive game.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 23, 2012, 01:29:15 AM
If you ignore the fact that Gunnarsson is a much better defensive player than Schenn, then maybe.

And has some sort of offensive game.

what change a year can bring.  No one would have said Gunnarsson was hands down better then Schenn last year.  He is having an off year, and I think the playing around with his ice time might have something to do with it.  So would you people trade Schenn for Gunnarsson straight up?  I sure wouldn't.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sneakyray on January 23, 2012, 07:35:54 AM
If you ignore the fact that Gunnarsson is a much better defensive player than Schenn, then maybe.

And has some sort of offensive game.

what change a year can bring.  No one would have said Gunnarsson was hands down better then Schenn last year.  He is having an off year, and I think the playing around with his ice time might have something to do with it.  So would you people trade Schenn for Gunnarsson straight up?  I sure wouldn't.

but I will say that if schenn gets traded then the team that gets him will probably be disappointed.

and if a team gets gunner...they will probably be pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 23, 2012, 08:41:05 AM
Trade

(http://files.myopera.com/BOSOX/albums/36990/everyone.gif)

Tank Nation resurrected!

this loss tonight does kind of feel like the loss to the canucks on saturday night a few years ago when burke blew up the team on sunday morning trading half the team for phaneuf and the other half for giguere.

I would say the keepers on the team are Kessel, Phaneuf, Schenn and Kadri in that order.  Everyone else I wouldn't miss.

I don't know what people see in Schenn. I would not miss him at all. Gunnarson is the main part of the defensive d-man.

Schenn has everything Gunnarson has and he brings a physical element which Gunnarson lacks.

Gunnarson makes whomever he plays with better.  If you pair a defenseman with Gunnarson, suddenly that dman looks and plays a lot better.  Schenn doesn't do that for anyone.  He's so slow.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 23, 2012, 08:41:41 AM
Screw Burke that's what I say. Maybe it's all the booze talking cause I'm half hammered from Chinese New Year but I'm expecting another non playoff year. Can't wait to hear all the excuses Burke pulls out this time and how "upset" he is Leafs didn't make it again.

I think it would really stick it to Burke if you protested his tenure by refusing to post about the Leafs for a whole week.  It'll be like your own personal Wikipedia blackout.

Thus, I do not expect a reply to this post.

Not a chance.  Burke has to answer for this mess if and when it comes crashing down.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 23, 2012, 08:45:59 AM
Why do you guys immediately want to trade players who are playing well?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: TML fan on January 23, 2012, 09:07:21 AM
It basically works like this:

Leafs draft player. Fans think player is awesome. Player plays ok. Fans think player is awesome and would never trade him. Player starts playing really well. Player is kinda good, but X player is better so we can package player with Y prospect for X player. X player comes to Leafs, fails to live up to ridiculous expectations. Player and Y prospect do well with new teams and Leafs GM is labelled incompetent fool who ruined franchise for next 40 years.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bullfrog on January 23, 2012, 09:24:36 AM
Why do you guys immediately want to trade players who are playing well?

Because by trading him, we might be able to get a player that plays as well as him!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 23, 2012, 09:25:56 AM
Screw Burke that's what I say. Maybe it's all the booze talking cause I'm half hammered from Chinese New Year but I'm expecting another non playoff year. Can't wait to hear all the excuses Burke pulls out this time and how "upset" he is Leafs didn't make it again.

I think it would really stick it to Burke if you protested his tenure by refusing to post about the Leafs for a whole week.  It'll be like your own personal Wikipedia blackout.

Thus, I do not expect a reply to this post.

Not a chance.  Burke has to answer for this mess if and when it comes crashing down.

How long does drinkin' go on on Chinese new year?  :P

In all seriousness though nothing is going to crash in a week, you can do it!!

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 23, 2012, 09:37:54 AM
Screw Burke that's what I say. Maybe it's all the booze talking cause I'm half hammered from Chinese New Year but I'm expecting another non playoff year. Can't wait to hear all the excuses Burke pulls out this time and how "upset" he is Leafs didn't make it again.

I think it would really stick it to Burke if you protested his tenure by refusing to post about the Leafs for a whole week.  It'll be like your own personal Wikipedia blackout.

Thus, I do not expect a reply to this post.

Not a chance.  Burke has to answer for this mess if and when it comes crashing down.

How long does drinkin' go on on Chinese new year?  :P

In all seriousness though nothing is going to crash in a week, you can do it!!

Watch how many join in the flogging of the Leafs over the all star break if they lose the next 2 games.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 23, 2012, 09:48:28 AM
Watch how many join in the flogging of the Leafs over the all star break if they lose the next 2 games.

Naw, that's all you. Kind of disappointed though but I still think you can do it!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 23, 2012, 09:50:18 AM
Watch how many join in the flogging of the Leafs over the all star break if they lose the next 2 games.

Naw, that's all you. Kind of disappointed though but I still think you can do it!

You'll even see the wrath of nutman should the Leafs flounder. ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on January 23, 2012, 09:58:40 AM
It basically works like this:

Leafs draft player. Fans think player is awesome. Player plays ok. Fans think player is awesome and would never trade him. Player starts playing really well. Player is kinda good, but X player is better so we can package player with Y prospect for X player. X player comes to Leafs, fails to live up to ridiculous expectations. Player and Y prospect do well with new teams and Leafs GM is labelled incompetent fool who ruined franchise for next 40 years.

Rinse & repeat
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 23, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
Why do you guys immediately want to trade players who are playing well?

Impatience. I mean, who needs patience when you're building a team, right?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zid on January 23, 2012, 11:26:55 AM
Why do you guys immediately want to trade players who are playing well?

Impatience. I mean, who needs patience when you're building a team, right?

Fast rebuild, blow hard Burke coined the term, not us. We were all prepared for tank nation long rebuild through draft.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 23, 2012, 11:42:38 AM
Why do you guys immediately want to trade players who are playing well?

Impatience. I mean, who needs patience when you're building a team, right?

Fast rebuild, blow hard Burke coined the term, not us. We were all prepared for tank nation long rebuild through draft.

I don't believe that for a second, who's this 'we' you're talking about?

...but, y'know, caveat emptor 'n such...

(http://rr-bb.com/images/smilies/sheepaid.gif)
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 23, 2012, 12:13:09 PM
If you ignore the fact that Gunnarsson is a much better defensive player than Schenn, then maybe.

And has some sort of offensive game.

what change a year can bring.  No one would have said Gunnarsson was hands down better then Schenn last year.  He is having an off year, and I think the playing around with his ice time might have something to do with it.  So would you people trade Schenn for Gunnarsson straight up?  I sure wouldn't.

Considering both players are relatively new to the NHL, yeah one year can make a big difference. Gunnarsson has taken a large step forward and is currently playing at a level that Schenn has never been at. Even still, this isn't something that has suddenly happened just now. Schenn has had many ups and downs in his career and has yet to consistently play a solid game for long stretches of time.

Realistically, if Schenn was Gunnar's size this wouldn't even be a conversation. Gunnar can skate, pass, and shoot better then Schenn. He can play in all situations, whereas Schenn is a non-factor on the PP. And Gunnarsson seems to have better hockey sense and decision making skills, which is arguably Schenn's biggest issue.

I know it sounds like I'm bashing Schenn, but I'm not. I just think it's time to realize he's likely not going to be the next Stevens or Foote.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on January 23, 2012, 12:26:37 PM

I know it sounds like I'm bashing Schenn, but I'm not. I just think it's time to realize he's likely not going to be the next Stevens or Foote.

Just out of curiousity, does anybody know how Adam Foote's first few seasons in the league went? I see he didn't start until he was 20 years old, but it is impossible to tell from stats how effective a player like that was and at what age he came into his own.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bullfrog on January 23, 2012, 12:33:23 PM
You can't discount Schenn's physical play though. He's currently at 8th in the league in hits, first for defensemen.

2010-11: finished 8th overall, 1st for defensemen
2009-10: 43rd overall, 18th for defensemen.

Given that he's only 22, there's still obviously room for improvement. Other than Gardiner, he's the youngest defenseman on the team (slightly  younger than Aulie, even and 3 years younger than Gunnarson.) I really think he'll round out his defensive game. He's got lots to learn and lots of time in which to learn it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on January 23, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
The stat for hits in the NHL in my opinion is a really flawed one when dealing with a defenceman.  The NHL now counts everything from a bump in the corner to a bone crushing blue line hit as one hit.  I would guess that not many forwards fear the Leaf zone for fear of getting "hit" by Schenn.  I would assume many more fear being really hit by Pheneuf.  I watch a lot of hockey live and on tv and don't believe for one second that hitting has increased in the NHL this season.  I can believe that 2 players bumping each other may have increased but what NHL player actually fears being nudged??
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Jalili on January 23, 2012, 01:24:32 PM
If you ignore the fact that Gunnarsson is a much better defensive player than Schenn, then maybe.

And has some sort of offensive game.

what change a year can bring.  No one would have said Gunnarsson was hands down better then Schenn last year.  He is having an off year, and I think the playing around with his ice time might have something to do with it.  So would you people trade Schenn for Gunnarsson straight up?  I sure wouldn't.

Considering both players are relatively new to the NHL, yeah one year can make a big difference. Gunnarsson has taken a large step forward and is currently playing at a level that Schenn has never been at. Even still, this isn't something that has suddenly happened just now. Schenn has had many ups and downs in his career and has yet to consistently play a solid game for long stretches of time.

Realistically, if Schenn was Gunnar's size this wouldn't even be a conversation. Gunnar can skate, pass, and shoot better then Schenn. He can play in all situations, whereas Schenn is a non-factor on the PP. And Gunnarsson seems to have better hockey sense and decision making skills, which is arguably Schenn's biggest issue.

I know it sounds like I'm bashing Schenn, but I'm not. I just think it's time to realize he's likely not going to be the next Stevens or Foote.

As far as accurate posts go, this one is dead-on.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 24, 2012, 10:46:36 AM
I didn't realize half of Carolina's defence are unrestricted this summer. Now, if there's a team in need of some help there, it's them.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 24, 2012, 05:35:18 PM
We were talking about the validity of incarceratedbob earlier in this thread, so I thought I'd bring this up:

Prince Fielder just signed with the Detroit Tigers. For the part few weeks ibn has been swearing that Fielder was going to sign with the Rangers. In fact, two says ago he posted the following tweets:

-**BREAKING MLB NEWS**Source: Texas Rangers have what they consider as a *DEAL* in principle with Prince Fielder (Source: Will Get Done!)
-**BREAKING MLB NEWS**Source: Texas Rangers have swooped in & signed the best player left on market PRINCE FIELDER #Arlington bound
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 24, 2012, 06:18:50 PM
We were talking about the validity of incarceratedbob earlier in this thread, so I thought I'd bring this up:

Prince Fielder just signed with the Detroit Tigers. For the part few weeks ibn has been swearing that Fielder was going to sign with the Rangers. In fact, two says ago he posted the following tweets:

-**BREAKING MLB NEWS**Source: Texas Rangers have what they consider as a *DEAL* in principle with Prince Fielder (Source: Will Get Done!)
-**BREAKING MLB NEWS**Source: Texas Rangers have swooped in & signed the best player left on market PRINCE FIELDER #Arlington bound

Incarceratedbob is full of it?  Shocker!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 24, 2012, 06:23:13 PM
Incarceratedbob is full of it?  Shocker!

Some people aren't convinced. Anyway I've been waiting for him to post something about Fielder signing in Detroit and it's honestly amazing:

-So the #RJ worked on Texas NO FIELDER: Perfect! Those not familiar with the #RJ get a clue.. Rangers would have been beasting with Prince
-Sometimes u gotta use the #RJ in desperate situations Yankees fans we rather Prince in Detroit(He will have slightly better #'s than Victor)
-#RJ Works again... Thank me later AL West : Sorry AL Central... Texas would have been going back 2the WS again! Now it may be lil harder


I had no idea what this RJ thing meant, so I had to do a little digging. Apparently, it means "reverse jinx". I'm speechless.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 24, 2012, 06:25:54 PM
I had no idea what this RJ thing meant, so I had to do a little digging. Apparently, it means "reverse jinx". I'm speechless.

incarceratedbob has a convenient way of covering his arse when he's so obviously wrong? Shocker!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 24, 2012, 06:28:46 PM
Incarceratedbob is full of it?  Shocker!

Some people aren't convinced. Anyway I've been waiting for him to post something about Fielder signing in Detroit and it's honestly amazing:

-So the #RJ worked on Texas NO FIELDER: Perfect! Those not familiar with the #RJ get a clue.. Rangers would have been beasting with Prince
-Sometimes u gotta use the #RJ in desperate situations Yankees fans we rather Prince in Detroit(He will have slightly better #'s than Victor)
-#RJ Works again... Thank me later AL West : Sorry AL Central... Texas would have been going back 2the WS again! Now it may be lil harder


I had no idea what this RJ thing meant, so I had to do a little digging. Apparently, it means "reverse jinx". I'm speechless.

 ;D
That's the best he could to make up for his BS huh?? Sadly people will continue to follow and report on his "insider info"
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Michael on January 24, 2012, 07:25:34 PM
Eklund would like you all to stay tuned.

Been on the phone all day looking into the rumors I am hearing out of New York that are saying the Maple Leafs may be closing in on their man...
 
as one source called it.."The biggest trade of the year is all but set."
 
Another source said, "I wouldn't yet say it was done, but I will say it is the answer the team has needed for some time. A top line scorer...It may take a few days though..
 
There have been a few names being thrown around, but the names that are the most common are that of either Blue jacket Nash or Carter. I have also heard Getzlaf mentioned today...for the first time from a guy who is familiar with it.
 
Stay tuned...


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Biggest-Trade-Yet-About-to-Hit/1/41607
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 24, 2012, 07:47:45 PM
Eklund would like you all to stay tuned.

Been on the phone all day looking into the rumors I am hearing out of New York that are saying the Maple Leafs may be closing in on their man...
 
as one source called it.."The biggest trade of the year is all but set."
 
Another source said, "I wouldn't yet say it was done, but I will say it is the answer the team has needed for some time. A top line scorer...It may take a few days though..
 
There have been a few names being thrown around, but the names that are the most common are that of either Blue jacket Nash or Carter. I have also heard Getzlaf mentioned today...for the first time from a guy who is familiar with it.
 
Stay tuned...


http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Biggest-Trade-Yet-About-to-Hit/1/41607

Jason Blake?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: pnjunction on January 24, 2012, 08:07:42 PM
...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: oldrugbyguy on January 24, 2012, 10:01:37 PM
Borje Salming?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 24, 2012, 10:51:24 PM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 24, 2012, 11:49:54 PM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

Phaneuf and MacArthur for Rick Nash??
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 24, 2012, 11:53:39 PM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

I'm a big fan of Rick Nash, but, I'm not sure he's worth the $7.8M cap hit he carries, and I'm pretty sure Burke won't be willing to give up the type of assets Columbus would want for him in addition to it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 24, 2012, 11:57:05 PM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

Phaneuf and MacArthur for Rick Nash??

...only if Burke believes he can land Suter, then Weber... ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 25, 2012, 01:53:23 AM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

I'm a big fan of Rick Nash, but, I'm not sure he's worth the $7.8M cap hit he carries, and I'm pretty sure Burke won't be willing to give up the type of assets Columbus would want for him in addition to it.

Agreed.  He is not a center too.  So we would still have the problem of having 3 second line centres and no first line centre.  Plus, getting Nash would mean that Lupul would be on his way out the door. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on January 25, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

I'm a big fan of Rick Nash, but, I'm not sure he's worth the $7.8M cap hit he carries, and I'm pretty sure Burke won't be willing to give up the type of assets Columbus would want for him in addition to it.

Agreed.  He is not a center too.  So we would still have the problem of having 3 second line centres and no first line centre.  Plus, getting Nash would mean that Lupul would be on his way out the door.

Not that I'm advocating selling the farm for Nash and his huge contract, but I'm not sure trying to get a first line centre to play with Kessel and Lupul is the best way to go. Top lines are usually two elite players plus a third wheel (think Sedin, Sedin, Burrows or Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison etc). Adding a Getzlaf to Kessel and Lupul might not improve the team the way everyone expects, unless there is insane chemistry between all three players.

Personally, I'd still like to see the Leafs add an elite player, but to play on the second line. Look for an equivalent to Malkin, Kesler or Hossa. The problem with that for the Leafs though is that the only guy playing like a true second liner this year is Grabovski, so a winger like Nash, Carter or Ryan would make more sense.

Of course, one problem with the three best offencive players all being wingers is it would prevent 'loading up' the top line on power plays or late game pushes.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 25, 2012, 04:45:22 PM
In case anyone is still questioning whether or not incarceratedbob is a fraud, he pretty much outed himself as one last night, after flipping his lid over the officiating in last night's Leafs-Isles game (he's a fish sticks fan, apparently). At least, according to some of the more, umm, interesting quotes poster by some of those of at HFBoards, he did.

Some highlights:

Quote
incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
Go #HABSGO **** YOU LEAFS! Now you will see what happens when you get on my bad side.. Watch what happens 2the locker room courtesy of #IBN

Which, of course, was followed by:

Quote
incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
**NHL BLOCKBUSTER RUMOR**Source: Leafs have offered Schenn / Grabo / Kadri / Komi for Nash & another player... CBJ thinking it over

incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
If CBJ takes the deal *NOTE* Burke has already worked it out with Komi waiving NTC : Leafs hoping it goes through after break

incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
**PROPOSED TRADE ALERT** Kadri / Schenn / Grabo / Komi (Will waive NTC) for Rick Nash + Top 9fwd #CBJ Still mulling over offer #HOTRUMOR

And, then:

Quote
Incarcerated Bob @incarceratedbob
Post that on you're #LAME ass team forum.. I got #Umad huh wait until i post the RUMORS about the "SEXUAL ASSAULT" #NHL Player #TMLTALK

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 25, 2012, 04:55:06 PM
Unreal. The worst thing about this is unless this guy just stops on his own he'll always have idiots following him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 25, 2012, 04:57:14 PM
Unreal. The worst thing about this is unless this guy just stops on his own he'll always have idiots following him.

I think the funniest part of all of this is that he actually believes he can have an impact in the Leafs' dressing room.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 25, 2012, 04:57:58 PM
Unreal. The worst thing about this is unless this guy just stops on his own he'll always have idiots following him.

I think the funniest part of all of this is that he actually believes he can have an impact in the Leafs' dressing room.

Well, he did single-handily get Prince Fielder to sign with Detroit.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 25, 2012, 05:51:47 PM
Unreal. The worst thing about this is unless this guy just stops on his own he'll always have idiots following him.

I think the funniest part of all of this is that he actually believes he can have an impact in the Leafs' dressing room.

Well, he did single-handily get Prince Fielder to sign with Detroit.

 ;D

Legend in his own mind.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Crake on January 25, 2012, 08:29:41 PM
From Elliotte Friedman's 30 thoughts:

22.Mentioned last week that there was some interest in Korbinian Holzer, a Toronto defenceman playing for the AHL's Marlies. Afterwards, heard one of the reasons the Maple Leafs are trying to move an NHL defenceman is to make room for Holzer on the big club.

23. Wasn't hugely surprised to hear the Maple Leafs may consider dealing Mikhail Grabovski. (They are listening to pitches). He's a UFA and Toronto may see a contract issue. Was very surprised to hear they were listening to talk about Nikolai Kulemin. He's an RFA having a down year, but I really like his game. Is the poor season just a blip, or a really bad omen?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/01/thomas-white-house-snub-all-star-game-30-thoughts.html (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/01/thomas-white-house-snub-all-star-game-30-thoughts.html)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: drummond on January 26, 2012, 04:54:15 AM
From Elliotte Friedman's 30 thoughts:

22.Mentioned last week that there was some interest in Korbinian Holzer, a Toronto defenceman playing for the AHL's Marlies. Afterwards, heard one of the reasons the Maple Leafs are trying to move an NHL defenceman is to make room for Holzer on the big club.

23. Wasn't hugely surprised to hear the Maple Leafs may consider dealing Mikhail Grabovski. (They are listening to pitches). He's a UFA and Toronto may see a contract issue. Was very surprised to hear they were listening to talk about Nikolai Kulemin. He's an RFA having a down year, but I really like his game. Is the poor season just a blip, or a really bad omen?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/01/thomas-white-house-snub-all-star-game-30-thoughts.html (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/01/thomas-white-house-snub-all-star-game-30-thoughts.html)


The Holzer thing is interresting

As far as Grabbo and Kuli I would be very hesitatnt to move Kulemin and in some extent Grabbo too.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on January 26, 2012, 09:47:30 AM
In case anyone is still questioning whether or not incarceratedbob is a fraud, he pretty much outed himself as one last night, after flipping his lid over the officiating in last night's Leafs-Isles game (he's a fish sticks fan, apparently). At least, according to some of the more, umm, interesting quotes poster by some of those of at HFBoards, he did.

Some highlights:

Quote
incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
Go #HABSGO **** YOU LEAFS! Now you will see what happens when you get on my bad side.. Watch what happens 2the locker room courtesy of #IBN

Which, of course, was followed by:

Quote
incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
**NHL BLOCKBUSTER RUMOR**Source: Leafs have offered Schenn / Grabo / Kadri / Komi for Nash & another player... CBJ thinking it over

incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
If CBJ takes the deal *NOTE* Burke has already worked it out with Komi waiving NTC : Leafs hoping it goes through after break

incarceratedbob Incarcerated Bob
**PROPOSED TRADE ALERT** Kadri / Schenn / Grabo / Komi (Will waive NTC) for Rick Nash + Top 9fwd #CBJ Still mulling over offer #HOTRUMOR

And, then:

Quote
Incarcerated Bob @incarceratedbob
Post that on you're #LAME ass team forum.. I got #Umad huh wait until i post the RUMORS about the "SEXUAL ASSAULT" #NHL Player #TMLTALK

Good heavens, this is abnormal.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 26, 2012, 10:56:15 AM
As far as Grabbo and Kuli I would be very hesitatnt to move Kulemin and in some extent Grabbo too.

I would as well, though, it comes down to what's coming back and what they're looking for contract-wise for next season. Burke admitted yesterday on Prime Time Sports (I think) that he had opened up contract negotiations with Grabovski earlier in the season and couldn't come to an agreement, so, that could be a sign that he's looking for more money than the Leafs can/are willing to pay him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 26, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

Nash or Carter.  Probably both (not to one team) since Carter really has not had any impact on the team at all.

Would they dare let Howsen make those trades though?  I mean really, how could you tell your fanbase you still believe in this guy?  Feels more like draft day deals and not rushed mid-season, unless they get some insane offer (ignoring Crazy Bob's crazy talk) they can't refuse.

Nash would get them two top young players + something, Carter one top young player + something.  Yeah maybe that is your re-re-rebuild start right there.

Man. What a mess.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 26, 2012, 11:12:48 AM
Howson is fighting for his job right now, so, for him to agree to a trade involving Nash or Carter, it would have to be an absolute homerun for the Jackets - especially for Nash, since he's the face of the franchise. I really don't see the Leafs getting seriously involved in trade talks for either because of that - the price on both is going to be silly, and we know Burke wasn't interested in the price Carter went for this summer. Add that to the fact that Dreger says the Leafs aren't discussing him, and, I'd say, if any deal goes down with Columbus, it will be of a much less impactful variety.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on January 26, 2012, 11:35:54 AM
I would as well, though, it comes down to what's coming back and what they're looking for contract-wise for next season. Burke admitted yesterday on Prime Time Sports (I think) that he had opened up contract negotiations with Grabovski earlier in the season and couldn't come to an agreement, so, that could be a sign that he's looking for more money than the Leafs can/are willing to pay him.

I listened to it, and it is Prime Time Sports. The feel I get from that is that he'll trade him, but not for the 2nd rounder that he mentioned, it seems it would have to be one heck of a deal for him to trade the player. I hope I'm right on that, because I think Grabbo is an important part of this team and taking a 2nd for him just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think it's worth trying to sign him later in the season, or in the summer. The Leafs have enough assets that they don't have to worry too much about not getting something back for him, he's more important to us than what will probably come back for a rental, which he essentially is.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 26, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
I listened to it, and it is Prime Time Sports. The feel I get from that is that he'll trade him, but not for the 2nd rounder that he mentioned, it seems it would have to be one heck of a deal for him to trade the player. I hope I'm right on that, because I think Grabbo is an important part of this team and taking a 2nd for him just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think it's worth trying to sign him later in the season, or in the summer. The Leafs have enough assets that they don't have to worry too much about not getting something back for him, he's more important to us than what will probably come back for a rental, which he essentially is.

Yeah, he's not going to be dealt for the sake of making a deal. Either Burke's going to get an offer for him that's more than just fair value or he'll be moved to try to recoup some assets that were used to make another deal or as part of a big deal (and, not as a throw in, despite what Doug MacLean wants us to believe). He's not a lock to be traded, but he's certainly what I'd classify as available.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 26, 2012, 11:44:05 AM
I listened to it, and it is Prime Time Sports. The feel I get from that is that he'll trade him, but not for the 2nd rounder that he mentioned, it seems it would have to be one heck of a deal for him to trade the player. I hope I'm right on that, because I think Grabbo is an important part of this team and taking a 2nd for him just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think it's worth trying to sign him later in the season, or in the summer. The Leafs have enough assets that they don't have to worry too much about not getting something back for him, he's more important to us than what will probably come back for a rental, which he essentially is.

Yeah, he's not going to be dealt for the sake of making a deal. Either Burke's going to get an offer for him that's more than just fair value or he'll be moved to try to recoup some assets that were used to make another deal or as part of a big deal (and, not as a throw in, despite what Doug MacLean wants us to believe). He's not a lock to be traded, but he's certainly what I'd classify as available.

I think Grabbo gets moved in a Schenn+Grabbo+whatever for top end forward or he doesn't get moved at all.  To trade him on his own, like you said, it doesn't make a lot of sense. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on January 26, 2012, 11:47:41 AM
Yeah, he's not going to be dealt for the sake of making a deal. Either Burke's going to get an offer for him that's more than just fair value or he'll be moved to try to recoup some assets that were used to make another deal or as part of a big deal (and, not as a throw in, despite what Doug MacLean wants us to believe). He's not a lock to be traded, but he's certainly what I'd classify as available.

Yeah, I think there is reason to believe that Burke likes the guy and wants him to be part of things, or he wouldn't have tried to get a deal done earlier.

The Leafs are in a tough spot right now. We know they need certain pieces to make this team into a legitimate contender, but the pieces we need are hard to come by and cost a lot, not only dollars and cap space, but assets leaving the team also. It's hard because to make that deal, you're most likely giving up pieces that you would otherwise not trade, because then you have to replace those pieces.

The best case scenario would be for a youngster to bloom into that piece, but I don't think we have that time right now to wait for either Kadri or Colborne to become a top line center and a good one that will lead the forwards. If Burke could trade Connolly or Colborne as key assets in a deal for one, that would IMO, be optimal.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on January 26, 2012, 02:02:15 PM
I listened to it, and it is Prime Time Sports. The feel I get from that is that he'll trade him, but not for the 2nd rounder that he mentioned, it seems it would have to be one heck of a deal for him to trade the player. I hope I'm right on that, because I think Grabbo is an important part of this team and taking a 2nd for him just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think it's worth trying to sign him later in the season, or in the summer. The Leafs have enough assets that they don't have to worry too much about not getting something back for him, he's more important to us than what will probably come back for a rental, which he essentially is.

Yeah, he's not going to be dealt for the sake of making a deal. Either Burke's going to get an offer for him that's more than just fair value or he'll be moved to try to recoup some assets that were used to make another deal or as part of a big deal (and, not as a throw in, despite what Doug MacLean wants us to believe). He's not a lock to be traded, but he's certainly what I'd classify as available.

I think Grabbo gets moved in a Schenn+Grabbo+whatever for top end forward or he doesn't get moved at all.  To trade him on his own, like you said, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

While I understand your point here, I have to disagree.  Presumably, the Leafs are intent on acquiring a top flight forward.  The teams looking to deal this type of p;ayer are more than likely floundering (Anaheim, Columbus, Carolina).  I just don't see these type of teams wanting or, better yet, valuing a rental player.  They would be interested in the Schenn, prospects, picks, etc. scenario, not a late 20's, UFA-to-be, 2'nd line centre.

Grobovski does have undeniable value, in my mind.  A second round pick?  Back away from the pipe.  Domenic Moore fetched a second round pick.  Grabovski is easily in the late first+ category in terms of return.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 26, 2012, 02:08:31 PM
Eklund is a joke, but I will predict that IF the Leafs land a top-rank scorer it will be Rick Nash.  I think CBJ is poised for a complete top-to-bottom, start-over-again overhaul.

Nash or Carter.  Probably both (not to one team) since Carter really has not had any impact on the team at all.

Would they dare let Howsen make those trades though?  I mean really, how could you tell your fanbase you still believe in this guy?  Feels more like draft day deals and not rushed mid-season, unless they get some insane offer (ignoring Crazy Bob's crazy talk) they can't refuse.

Nash would get them two top young players + something, Carter one top young player + something.  Yeah maybe that is your re-re-rebuild start right there.

Man. What a mess.

Well, I never heard of this Incarcerated Bob asshat, and I posted my prediction independently of reading any of the rumor sites (which I don't read).  The reasons I think Burke will target / is targeting Nash are (1) he's a power forward, who, with the right linemates, could be among the leagues top scorers every year, and (2) he is a guy who would have killed to have been drafted by the Leafs.  I think if he came here he would be the next captain if Phaneuf is not re-signed.   

I remember when he was in his draft year and he was on that segment Cherry used to do with top Canadian prospects.  Everyone is asked who his favorite player is.  Nash is the only Canadian guy I ever heard who answered "Mats Sundin."

Nash bleeds blue & white.  His motivation would be off the charts in a Leafs uni.

Unfortunately it appears to me that Grabs is on his way out.  I could see Grabs + Gunnarsson + first + another pick for Nash.  Maybe Burke could do a little better.

Will any of this happen?  I'm predicting yes, but what do I know?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 26, 2012, 02:11:12 PM
I listened to it, and it is Prime Time Sports. The feel I get from that is that he'll trade him, but not for the 2nd rounder that he mentioned, it seems it would have to be one heck of a deal for him to trade the player. I hope I'm right on that, because I think Grabbo is an important part of this team and taking a 2nd for him just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think it's worth trying to sign him later in the season, or in the summer. The Leafs have enough assets that they don't have to worry too much about not getting something back for him, he's more important to us than what will probably come back for a rental, which he essentially is.

Yeah, he's not going to be dealt for the sake of making a deal. Either Burke's going to get an offer for him that's more than just fair value or he'll be moved to try to recoup some assets that were used to make another deal or as part of a big deal (and, not as a throw in, despite what Doug MacLean wants us to believe). He's not a lock to be traded, but he's certainly what I'd classify as available.

I think Grabbo gets moved in a Schenn+Grabbo+whatever for top end forward or he doesn't get moved at all.  To trade him on his own, like you said, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

See, the problem I have with that is that if we are looking for a top end forward it's probably coming from a non-playoff team.  You don't see playoff teams deal first (or second) liners too often.

So how much value does a pending UFA have to a non-playoff team?  Not much.

The teams interested in Grabs are likely playoff teams.  They won't be trading a core piece.  They would look at the traditional UFA at the deadline deal which would be for a pick or prospect.  Something that the Leafs likely don't want.

Trading Grabs doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 26, 2012, 02:14:02 PM
Unfortunately it appears to me that Grabs is on his way out.  I could see Grabs + Gunnarsson + first + another pick for Nash.  Maybe Burke could do a little better.

Will any of this happen?  I'm predicting yes, but what do I know?

No offense, but I just don't understand how people view Grabs as "value" to a non-playoff team.

What happens on July 1st when Grabs bolts?  They basically gave Rick Nash, their star player, captain, fan favourite, City 'icon' away for.... nothing?

Sorry.  I don't see it.

Grabs is only valuable to a playoff team.  Unless of course he agrees to a contract extension mid season with a non-playoff team who he is not even currently a part of.  How often does that happen? 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 26, 2012, 02:14:44 PM
I really don't quite get the idea that Nash wouldn't be a fit because we already have Lupul and Kessel on the top line thing... I mean, assuming you keep Kessel and Lupul together (and the possibility exists you wouldn't) couldn't you feature Nash on a line that got pretty close to equal minutes? Heck, Nash with just about anyone else might be the first line. Point being, Nash is a guy you just fit into your line-up.... because he's um, Nash, right? Or, maybe I'm crazy.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 26, 2012, 02:23:42 PM
I really don't quite get the idea that Nash wouldn't be a fit because we already have Lupul and Kessel on the top line thing... I mean, assuming you keep Kessel and Lupul together (and the possibility exists you wouldn't) couldn't you feature Nash on a line that got pretty close to equal minutes? Heck, Nash with just about anyone else might be the first line. Point being, Nash is a guy you just fit into your line-up.... because he's um, Nash, right? Or, maybe I'm crazy.

I think it's obvious.

And who knows, the Lupul-Kessel well might run dry.  We've seen it first hand with Kule-Grabs-Mac. 

Nash is an obvious choice to throw up there with Phil.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 26, 2012, 02:31:18 PM
Unfortunately it appears to me that Grabs is on his way out.  I could see Grabs + Gunnarsson + first + another pick for Nash.  Maybe Burke could do a little better.

Will any of this happen?  I'm predicting yes, but what do I know?

No offense, but I just don't understand how people view Grabs as "value" to a non-playoff team.

What happens on July 1st when Grabs bolts?  They basically gave Rick Nash, their star player, captain, fan favourite, City 'icon' away for.... nothing?

Sorry.  I don't see it.

Grabs is only valuable to a playoff team.  Unless of course he agrees to a contract extension mid season with a non-playoff team who he is not even currently a part of.  How often does that happen?

Point taken, although it still could happen.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 26, 2012, 02:31:25 PM
If the Leafs were in on a Nash or a Getzlaf or whatever I could see the notion being to utilize them on a different line than Kessel/Lupul.

To get a player like that I think I agree that Grabovski is not likely to be part of the deal, could be but the team would have to believe they could sign him ... more likely he'd be dealt in another deal to a contender-ish-y team to deal with cap dollars and recoup some of the cost of the other deal.

I don't think any of that is very likely.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 26, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
If the Leafs were in on a Nash or a Getzlaf or whatever I could see the notion being to utilize them on a different line than Kessel/Lupul.

To get a player like that I think I agree that Grabovski is not likely to be part of the deal, could be but the team would have to believe they could sign him ... more likely he'd be dealt in another deal to a contender-ish-y team to deal with cap dollars and recoup some of the cost of the other deal.

I don't think any of that is very likely.

Agreed.

If the Leafs do land a Getzlaf, or whoever, I doubt Grabs goes the other way.  He just doesnt have value to a non playoff team knowing full well he likely leaves in the summer.

Like you said though, he could very well be traded in ANOTHER deal to recoup some of the assets we lost in the first one.

Example:  (and I am just talking out of my @ss here).

To Tor:  Getzlaf
To Ana:  Kulemin, Schenn, 1st

To Chi:  Grabovski
To Tor:  1st


So the Leafs would, more or less, net even in terms of 1st round picks....  So although Grabs wasn't dealt DIRECTLY for Getzlaf, he more or less was traded indirectly because of him.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 26, 2012, 02:51:41 PM
Yeah, something along those lines works for me Ern.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: iwas11in67 on January 26, 2012, 03:59:18 PM
Something off the wall:

How about Grabs and Mac to Philly for B. Schenn.

Those 2 could really help the Philly playoff push.
This year, more than any other I think, the playoffs are up for grabs to at least 6-7 teams.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: The Red Polar Bear on January 26, 2012, 04:09:37 PM
You know, despite all the good points you guys have made in favour of others, I still think that E. Staal would be the guy to target.

1) Size: 6'4" 205lbs (from wiki)
2) Availability: He's having a pretty bad year on a bad team, has a really expensive contract and has an heir apparent (Skinner) to take over the C in a few years. Obviously a player of his ability isn't "available", but its not beyond all reason that they could move him.
3) Needs: CAR has 3 UFA D-men, Spacek, Allen and Gleason. Currently, with Pitkanen out, Gleason and Allen are their top pairing (at least, according to the last GDT on "that other website"), so if they see both going to UFA (Gleason probably will, I don't know much about Allen), they could use some D.

I mean, other options are probably more likely, but I would be kicking the tires here.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on January 26, 2012, 04:14:38 PM
Something off the wall:

How about Grabs and Mac to Philly for B. Schenn.

Those 2 could really help the Philly playoff push.
This year, more than any other I think, the playoffs are up for grabs to at least 6-7 teams.

And how does that help our playoff push?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: iwas11in67 on January 26, 2012, 04:26:19 PM
Something off the wall:

How about Grabs and Mac to Philly for B. Schenn.

Those 2 could really help the Philly playoff push.
This year, more than any other I think, the playoffs are up for grabs to at least 6-7 teams.

And how does that help our playoff push?
]

I would only do the trade if we started to sputter in the next month.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on January 26, 2012, 04:28:34 PM
Something off the wall:

How about Grabs and Mac to Philly for B. Schenn.

Those 2 could really help the Philly playoff push.
This year, more than any other I think, the playoffs are up for grabs to at least 6-7 teams.

And how does that help our playoff push?
]

I would only do the trade if we started to sputter in the next month.

I would agree on that, however, I dunno if Philly would go for it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 26, 2012, 04:39:15 PM
I would agree on that, however, I dunno if Philly would go for it.

More to the point, Philly definitely doesn't have the cap space for it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: iwas11in67 on January 26, 2012, 04:50:46 PM
I would agree on that, however, I dunno if Philly would go for it.

More to the point, Philly definitely doesn't have the cap space for it.

Ok so we would have to take some money back.

I was just opening up the thought of selling some experience to hard contenders.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Nik Bethune on January 26, 2012, 04:57:37 PM
Ok so we would have to take some money back.

The problem there is that Philly doesn't have a lot in the way of contracts that they'd throw in as junk. Almost everyone earning significant money on their roster is a valuable piece of their team.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: louisstamos on January 26, 2012, 05:55:26 PM
Bobby Mac was just on TSN radio and said that a lot of teams having been asking about Brendan Morrow from Dallas...

does he tickle anyone's fancy?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: iwas11in67 on January 26, 2012, 05:59:50 PM
Ok so we would have to take some money back.

The problem there is that Philly doesn't have a lot in the way of contracts that they'd throw in as junk. Almost everyone earning significant money on their roster is a valuable piece of their team.

I was just spitballing.
I really hope it doesn't come down to us being sellers and we go on a nice run down the stretch.
This season is really open i feel.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 26, 2012, 06:07:32 PM
Bobby Mac was just on TSN radio and said that a lot of teams having been asking about Brendan Morrow from Dallas...

does he tickle anyone's fancy?

A number of issues;

1. He's banged up... I have no idea how bad his neck injury is... You?
2. He has a NTC... He'd have to wave it...
3. I've always liked him... a physical guy who like Ruutu, I think we need. However, I'm sure his best years are behind him. I think I'd rather Ruutu who is 5 years younger and hope he'd re-sign.     
 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 26, 2012, 06:23:37 PM
I would agree on that, however, I dunno if Philly would go for it.

More to the point, Philly definitely doesn't have the cap space for it.

Maybe I'm missing something but Schenn counts for over 3 and capgeek says they can take a max cap hit of over 5 right now, seems plausible at least in terms of cap space from that.

Edit to add: ok, I read the injury report and, wow, not sure what to make of it, they're hurt, not sure what the ir/cap consequences are...?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 27, 2012, 12:20:49 AM
I think Morrow is exactly what this team needs. I'd be all for it. MacArthur and Aulie for Morrow?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 27, 2012, 08:55:09 AM
I think Morrow is exactly what this team needs. I'd be all for it. MacArthur and Aulie for Morrow?

Another thing I don't like about acquiring Morrow is - Will he be a core player 2 years or more (if he resigns after next year) His numbers suggest he's regressing and I'm not sure he's a fit. If we were closer to be a contender? Sure. I think he'd be a great pick-up for some one closer to competing for the cup.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 08:55:33 AM
Bobby Mac was just on TSN radio and said that a lot of teams having been asking about Brendan Morrow from Dallas...

does he tickle anyone's fancy?

A number of issues;

1. He's banged up... I have no idea how bad his neck injury is... You?
2. He has a NTC... He'd have to wave it...
3. I've always liked him... a physical guy who like Ruutu, I think we need. However, I'm sure his best years are behind him. I think I'd rather Ruutu who is 5 years younger and hope he'd re-sign.   


Yeah Morrow's age and health are of concern.  If he's healthy he's a good and brings experience.  It's a risk.  Also not exactly the "big name" forward that a lot of people were hoping for.  Perception will be that Leafs sat back if Burke gets someone like Morrow.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
Morrow absolutely the style of player we need up front. But he is too old.  A contender will pay handsomely to get him at the deadline. 

Next.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 27, 2012, 09:05:48 AM
Bobby Mac was just on TSN radio and said that a lot of teams having been asking about Brendan Morrow from Dallas...

does he tickle anyone's fancy?

He is, without question, the type of player we need.

However he is getting a little older (33 now) and he's starting to break down a bit.  If we were a contender this year I'd say absolutely.  He is a perfect 2nd line player.  But we aren't. 

I see his impact as being Gary Roberts-like though.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 09:10:14 AM
So the owner of the Columbus Blue Jackets just put out an interesting letter to his fanbase, where he basically just named Craig Patrick the new GM:

http://www.jacketscannon.com/2012/1/27/2751924/breaking-j-p-mac-sends-letter-to-season-ticket-holders

Patrick was all about many a big trade back in the day with the Pens both as a buyer and a seller. I would expect some major stuff to happen once he officially (I assume) takes over.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 27, 2012, 09:15:33 AM
So the owner of the Columbus Blue Jackets just put out an interesting letter to his fanbase, where he basically just named Craig Patrick the new GM:

http://www.jacketscannon.com/2012/1/27/2751924/breaking-j-p-mac-sends-letter-to-season-ticket-holders

Patrick was all about many a big trade back in the day with the Pens both as a buyer and a seller. I would expect some major stuff to happen once he officially (I assume) takes over.

How much truth do you put into Kypper saying just last week that "Rick Nash doesn't want to play in Toronto"?

I am not advocating trading for him or anything (as I would think the asking price would be just too damn high and really gut the team).  I'm more curious about the notion that Rick wouldn't want to play in T.O.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 10:03:58 AM
So the owner of the Columbus Blue Jackets just put out an interesting letter to his fanbase, where he basically just named Craig Patrick the new GM:

http://www.jacketscannon.com/2012/1/27/2751924/breaking-j-p-mac-sends-letter-to-season-ticket-holders

Patrick was all about many a big trade back in the day with the Pens both as a buyer and a seller. I would expect some major stuff to happen once he officially (I assume) takes over.

How much truth do you put into Kypper saying just last week that "Rick Nash doesn't want to play in Toronto"?

I am not advocating trading for him or anything (as I would think the asking price would be just too damn high and really gut the team).  I'm more curious about the notion that Rick wouldn't want to play in T.O.

I don't put a lot of stock into it at all.

I have a really hard time understanding how any kid who grows up in the GTA playing hockey would say "nah I don't want to play in a hockey market like Toronto".
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on January 27, 2012, 10:22:05 AM
I think it would be easy to understand how any of today's NHL'ers would not want to play in Toronto or any major hockey city for that matter.  These guys may not want to be living somewhere that thay may not have the ability to live a "normal" life away from the rink.  I think it would be a much more normal life going for dinner or shopping or seeing a movie in a place like Columbus, Nashville, Phoenix, LA, Tampa, and so on??  Not to mention the huge media pressure that exists and blows every little issue so out of proportion on a daily basis.  I would assume this can really wear on a person and their family. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 27, 2012, 10:24:49 AM
I think it would be easy to understand how any of today's NHL'ers would not want to play in Toronto or any major hockey city for that matter.  These guys may not want to be living somewhere that thay may not have the ability to live a "normal" life away from the rink.  I think it would be a much more normal life going for dinner or shopping or seeing a movie in a place like Columbus, Nashville, Phoenix, LA, Tampa, and so on??  Not to mention the huge media pressure that exists and blows every little issue so out of proportion on a daily basis.  I would assume this can really wear on a person and their family.

Yeah, it's different strokes for different folks... It just boils down to the individual. I imagine for some players, Toronto is a dream... For others, a nightmare.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bill_Berg on January 27, 2012, 10:28:00 AM
I think it would be easy to understand how any of today's NHL'ers would not want to play in Toronto or any major hockey city for that matter.  These guys may not want to be living somewhere that thay may not have the ability to live a "normal" life away from the rink.  I think it would be a much more normal life going for dinner or shopping or seeing a movie in a place like Columbus, Nashville, Phoenix, LA, Tampa, and so on??  Not to mention the huge media pressure that exists and blows every little issue so out of proportion on a daily basis.  I would assume this can really wear on a person and their family.

Yeah, it's different strokes for different folks... It just boils down to the individual. I imagine for some players, Toronto is a dream... For others, a nightmare.

But it's hard to imagine too many professional sports figures want to shy away from the exposure. Some maybe, but it has to be a small percentage.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 10:32:04 AM
I think it would be easy to understand how any of today's NHL'ers would not want to play in Toronto or any major hockey city for that matter.  These guys may not want to be living somewhere that thay may not have the ability to live a "normal" life away from the rink.  I think it would be a much more normal life going for dinner or shopping or seeing a movie in a place like Columbus, Nashville, Phoenix, LA, Tampa, and so on??  Not to mention the huge media pressure that exists and blows every little issue so out of proportion on a daily basis.  I would assume this can really wear on a person and their family.

Yeah, it's different strokes for different folks... It just boils down to the individual. I imagine for some players, Toronto is a dream... For others, a nightmare.

But it's hard to imagine too many professional sports figures want to shy away from the exposure. Some maybe, but it has to be a small percentage.

That's the way I see it. The competitive bones these guys have to have just to make it to the NHL let alone excel makes it hard for me to understand how they would not want the chance to play in a hockey city and win there. 

Movies? anonymity? etc? If that is what is important to them then I would question that player's willingness to win vs. just making a big fat paycheque to play hockey and live in an easy situation.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bates on January 27, 2012, 10:33:41 AM
For me personally I would think early in a career most players would jump at the chance to play in a hotbed like Toronto.  I would want to be the center of attention and would just soak up the attention and atmosphere.  But as time went on in the career I would be looking for somewhere with a little more privacy for me and my family as we try to lead a more normal life away from the rink.  I would also think that the pressure of being under the microscope would begin to wear on an aging multi-millionaire.  Let's not forget that most of these guys start in their late teens "living the dream" of playing in the NHL.  I would guess by late 20's lots of players are "working" in the NHL and place a lot more emphasis on home life.  It probably doesn't help that many are treated like a commodity such as Sundin later in his career, that has to weigh on a guy??
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 27, 2012, 10:36:21 AM
So the owner of the Columbus Blue Jackets just put out an interesting letter to his fanbase, where he basically just named Craig Patrick the new GM:

http://www.jacketscannon.com/2012/1/27/2751924/breaking-j-p-mac-sends-letter-to-season-ticket-holders

Patrick was all about many a big trade back in the day with the Pens both as a buyer and a seller. I would expect some major stuff to happen once he officially (I assume) takes over.

That's not really the impression I get from that letter, but, even if he is, the same things I said about Howson would apply to Patrick. He won't move the face of the franchise so early in his tenure without it being a clear and absolute win for the Blue Jackets.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 10:54:31 AM
So the owner of the Columbus Blue Jackets just put out an interesting letter to his fanbase, where he basically just named Craig Patrick the new GM:

http://www.jacketscannon.com/2012/1/27/2751924/breaking-j-p-mac-sends-letter-to-season-ticket-holders

Patrick was all about many a big trade back in the day with the Pens both as a buyer and a seller. I would expect some major stuff to happen once he officially (I assume) takes over.

That's not really the impression I get from that letter, but, even if he is, the same things I said about Howson would apply to Patrick. He won't move the face of the franchise so early in his tenure without it being a clear and absolute win for the Blue Jackets.

The fact that he mentions Craig Patrick being hired basically to help them figure out what the heck is wrong, and he doesn't mention Howsen or any other front office person by name was pretty telling to me about who his go-to guy is. 

Doesn't mean fire sale pending but I can't see any advisor suggesting anything other than a complete gut job, including Nash, given he has been the captain of the failed team for a long, long time.

I like Nash but I think the BJ's have a leadership problem from the top all the way to the on-ice team. Hard to exclude Nash from being a big part of that failure.  I bet a change is made in the summer there.
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sudafederov on January 27, 2012, 11:02:18 AM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 27, 2012, 11:02:33 AM
I think Morrow is exactly what this team needs. I'd be all for it. MacArthur and Aulie for Morrow?
Let's try that for Clowe and I am all for it.  ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 27, 2012, 11:07:11 AM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

I suppose that's possible but I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance to play for the Leafs. 

(Incidentally, Stamkos is another guy that, someday, I see in a Leafs uni because it was his dream, and a heartfelt dream -- I remember quotes to that effect while he was with Sarnia.)
Title: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 11:59:09 AM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

I suppose that's possible but I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance to play for the Leafs. 

(Incidentally, Stamkos is another guy that, someday, I see in a Leafs uni because it was his dream, and a heartfelt dream -- I remember quotes to that effect while he was with Sarnia.)

We always say that this player or that player would love to play for the Leafs, so why did he go and sign a huge extension with Columbus when he was going to be a FA?  For myself I know that if I were a hockey player I would kill to be a Leaf. I would wait out whatever contract I had to bring me to FA and then sign with the Leafs. But that's me.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 27, 2012, 12:03:09 PM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

I suppose that's possible but I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance to play for the Leafs. 

(Incidentally, Stamkos is another guy that, someday, I see in a Leafs uni because it was his dream, and a heartfelt dream -- I remember quotes to that effect while he was with Sarnia.)

We always say that this player or that player would love to play for the Leafs, so why did he go and sign a huge extension with Columbus when he was going to be a FA?  For myself I know that if I were a hockey player I would kill to be a Leaf. I would wait out whatever contract I had to bring me to FA and then sign with the Leafs. But that's me.

Because the offer was on the table?  All I'm saying is, if CBJ tells him they are blowing it up and he can go, he'd be thrilled to come here. 

My prediction that we will get him is based entirely on my own intuition. (I don't have a grotesque doppelgänger growing out of my gut telling me what to do, as in those betting commercials.)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Mack674 on January 27, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

I suppose that's possible but I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance to play for the Leafs. 

(Incidentally, Stamkos is another guy that, someday, I see in a Leafs uni because it was his dream, and a heartfelt dream -- I remember quotes to that effect while he was with Sarnia.)

We always say that this player or that player would love to play for the Leafs, so why did he go and sign a huge extension with Columbus when he was going to be a FA?  For myself I know that if I were a hockey player I would kill to be a Leaf. I would wait out whatever contract I had to bring me to FA and then sign with the Leafs. But that's me.

Because the offer was on the table?  All I'm saying is, if CBJ tells him they are blowing it up and he can go, he'd be thrilled to come here. 

My prediction that we will get him is based entirely on my own intuition. (I don't have a grotesque doppelgänger growing out of my gut telling me what to do, as in those betting commercials.)

I have the same feeling about Nash. I also think (if Burke is still here in a few years)  Tavares could be here as well.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 12:45:33 PM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

I suppose that's possible but I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance to play for the Leafs. 

(Incidentally, Stamkos is another guy that, someday, I see in a Leafs uni because it was his dream, and a heartfelt dream -- I remember quotes to that effect while he was with Sarnia.)

We always say that this player or that player would love to play for the Leafs, so why did he go and sign a huge extension with Columbus when he was going to be a FA?  For myself I know that if I were a hockey player I would kill to be a Leaf. I would wait out whatever contract I had to bring me to FA and then sign with the Leafs. But that's me.

Because the offer was on the table?  All I'm saying is, if CBJ tells him they are blowing it up and he can go, he'd be thrilled to come here. 

My prediction that we will get him is based entirely on my own intuition. (I don't have a grotesque doppelgänger growing out of my gut telling me what to do, as in those betting commercials.)

CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.

I remember when Joe Bowen was telling everyone who would listen that Nash to Toronto as a UFA was a done deal that year.  While he can be crazy at times I think Joe knew at least something was going on.   I think the 8-year deal magically appeared not long after that. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
In terms of Nash, he's mentioned before that Sundin was his favorite player.

I've noticed a lot of his comments, and the way he handles himself and his captaincy is very Sundin like.

I always wondered if Nash soured a bit on Toronto because of the way the Sundin situation was handled by the Leafs organization towards the end of Mats's career.

I suppose that's possible but I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't jump at the chance to play for the Leafs. 

(Incidentally, Stamkos is another guy that, someday, I see in a Leafs uni because it was his dream, and a heartfelt dream -- I remember quotes to that effect while he was with Sarnia.)

We always say that this player or that player would love to play for the Leafs, so why did he go and sign a huge extension with Columbus when he was going to be a FA?  For myself I know that if I were a hockey player I would kill to be a Leaf. I would wait out whatever contract I had to bring me to FA and then sign with the Leafs. But that's me.

Because the offer was on the table?  All I'm saying is, if CBJ tells him they are blowing it up and he can go, he'd be thrilled to come here. 

My prediction that we will get him is based entirely on my own intuition. (I don't have a grotesque doppelgänger growing out of my gut telling me what to do, as in those betting commercials.)

CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.


Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 27, 2012, 01:05:30 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.


Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.
[/quote]

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.

We don't really know if its his lifelong dream come true to play for the Leafs.  Most of these guys accept that the odds of playing for the hometown team are slim to none.  That's what Tavares basically said when he was drafted.  These guys come to that realization early on.   But most usually say they would want the chance at some point in their careers, hence the reason why the Leafs would get so many older guys wanting to come here on their downhill years. 

Can't always think with your heart. For Nash to walk on a $65 mil deal at that point made zero sense. What if he had a career ending injury in the following weeks or something else happened to him? 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 01:12:24 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.



Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.


I think pro sports is a little different than chasing your dream in real life.  Like I said, Nash was already a multi-millionaire and even if he suffered a career ending injury as you said, he'd still be able to pull in money from endorsements.  It's not the same thing.

I think the term "dream" is thrown around too easily.  Would Nash "like" to play for the Leafs -- sure I think he would.  Would he do everything in his power to make that happen, i.e. wait 1 year for his contract to expire and sign with the Leafs -- no.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 27, 2012, 01:24:53 PM
I don't know if it was his dream but dreams can change and 65 mil is a pretty good reason to me.

Playing for Toronto is still a possibility for him one day too so he can still dream about it while snoozing on a pile of dough.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sucka on January 27, 2012, 02:40:19 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.



Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.


I think pro sports is a little different than chasing your dream in real life.  Like I said, Nash was already a multi-millionaire and even if he suffered a career ending injury as you said, he'd still be able to pull in money from endorsements.  It's not the same thing.

I think the term "dream" is thrown around too easily.  Would Nash "like" to play for the Leafs -- sure I think he would.  Would he do everything in his power to make that happen, i.e. wait 1 year for his contract to expire and sign with the Leafs -- no.

Like someone said, apart from the rare individual, cash will always be king.  How many people would rather stay in a higher paying job rather than go to a Top-20 employer for less?  And who's to say 65M is alot? after all the tax man takes a big chunk.  You can't blame anyone coming out and expressing a desire to play in Toronto but sign elsewhere for the big contract.   A windfall of 50M for me and you is pretty much not going to make a lick of difference were it 60M or 40M.  But a 80K salary vs a 120K salary would probably dictate where we choose to work.  Our 80K vs 120K is Nash's 50M vs 60M. 

There's actually another thing in play here. If someone were to offer you a 50% chance at winning 100 or a guaranteed payout of $50 the expected return is $50 in both cases.  with small dollars involved it's difficult to say who would pick what, depending on one's aversion to risk.  But lets start upping the amounts in play to say 1000 or a 50/50 shot and 500 for on the spot handout.  You'd expect a shift due of some people who took the gamble in the prior example to chicken out and take the 500.   But even that might not be clear cut...you could argue that you can do alot more with 1000 than you can with 500 so what the hell, i'll risk it.  What happens when you get to 100M vs 50M, the expected return remains unchanged from the previous examples.  I bet no one would take the risk of getting $0 unless they already had a personal wealth of at least 1B or if this person was a degenerate gambler.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 02:45:46 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.



Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.


I think pro sports is a little different than chasing your dream in real life.  Like I said, Nash was already a multi-millionaire and even if he suffered a career ending injury as you said, he'd still be able to pull in money from endorsements.  It's not the same thing.

I think the term "dream" is thrown around too easily.  Would Nash "like" to play for the Leafs -- sure I think he would.  Would he do everything in his power to make that happen, i.e. wait 1 year for his contract to expire and sign with the Leafs -- no.

Like someone said, apart from the rare individual, cash will always be king.  How many people would rather stay in a higher paying job rather than go to a Top-20 employer for less?  And who's to say 65M is alot? after all the tax man takes a big chunk.  You can't blame anyone coming out and expressing a desire to play in Toronto but sign elsewhere for the big contract.   A windfall of 50M for me and you is pretty much not going to make a lick of difference were it 60M or 40M.  But a 80K salary vs a 120K salary would probably dictate where we choose to work.  Our 80K vs 120K is Nash's 50M vs 60M.

C'mon.  We're talking financial independence for the rest of your life at his old contract (before the $65M), you can't compare that to someone who has to work until 65 at $80K/year.  If it was my dream to start my own business, and I was already financially secure and knew that even if the dream failed, I would still be alright and not have to worry about my family's financial security, then I would persue that dream.  That's a better analogy.  He doesn't *need* the money.  Sure it's fantastic to have all that extra cash, but it's not essential.  There's a big difference.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sucka on January 27, 2012, 02:59:32 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.



Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.


I think pro sports is a little different than chasing your dream in real life.  Like I said, Nash was already a multi-millionaire and even if he suffered a career ending injury as you said, he'd still be able to pull in money from endorsements.  It's not the same thing.

I think the term "dream" is thrown around too easily.  Would Nash "like" to play for the Leafs -- sure I think he would.  Would he do everything in his power to make that happen, i.e. wait 1 year for his contract to expire and sign with the Leafs -- no.

Like someone said, apart from the rare individual, cash will always be king.  How many people would rather stay in a higher paying job rather than go to a Top-20 employer for less?  And who's to say 65M is alot? after all the tax man takes a big chunk.  You can't blame anyone coming out and expressing a desire to play in Toronto but sign elsewhere for the big contract.   A windfall of 50M for me and you is pretty much not going to make a lick of difference were it 60M or 40M.  But a 80K salary vs a 120K salary would probably dictate where we choose to work.  Our 80K vs 120K is Nash's 50M vs 60M.

C'mon.  We're talking financial independence for the rest of your life at his old contract (before the $65M), you can't compare that to someone who has to work until 65 at $80K/year.  If it was my dream to start my own business, and I was already financially secure and knew that even if the dream failed, I would still be alright and not have to worry about my family's financial security, then I would persue that dream.  That's a better analogy.  He doesn't *need* the money.  Sure it's fantastic to have all that extra cash, but it's not essential.  There's a big difference.

that's not true.  If you today are making 100K, what you would consider financial security is not the same amount as some one who makes considerably more, say a corporate lawyer that charges 800/hour.  how many wealthy folks with a cash account of 2M would consider themselves financially secure?  Most would admit they wouldn't be, although in your mind, you'd be living like a king were you to have that much. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 03:04:13 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.



Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.


I think pro sports is a little different than chasing your dream in real life.  Like I said, Nash was already a multi-millionaire and even if he suffered a career ending injury as you said, he'd still be able to pull in money from endorsements.  It's not the same thing.

I think the term "dream" is thrown around too easily.  Would Nash "like" to play for the Leafs -- sure I think he would.  Would he do everything in his power to make that happen, i.e. wait 1 year for his contract to expire and sign with the Leafs -- no.

Like someone said, apart from the rare individual, cash will always be king.  How many people would rather stay in a higher paying job rather than go to a Top-20 employer for less?  And who's to say 65M is alot? after all the tax man takes a big chunk.  You can't blame anyone coming out and expressing a desire to play in Toronto but sign elsewhere for the big contract.   A windfall of 50M for me and you is pretty much not going to make a lick of difference were it 60M or 40M.  But a 80K salary vs a 120K salary would probably dictate where we choose to work.  Our 80K vs 120K is Nash's 50M vs 60M.

C'mon.  We're talking financial independence for the rest of your life at his old contract (before the $65M), you can't compare that to someone who has to work until 65 at $80K/year.  If it was my dream to start my own business, and I was already financially secure and knew that even if the dream failed, I would still be alright and not have to worry about my family's financial security, then I would persue that dream.  That's a better analogy.  He doesn't *need* the money.  Sure it's fantastic to have all that extra cash, but it's not essential.  There's a big difference.

that's not true.  If you today are making 100K, what you would consider financial security is not the same amount as some one who makes considerably more, say a corporate lawyer that charges 800/hour.  how many wealthy folks with a cash account of 2M would consider themselves financially secure?  Most would admit they wouldn't be, although in your mind, you'd be living like a king were you to have that much.

Unless Nash comes from a mega rich family, I'm pretty sure he's already surpassed the net earnings of his parents and how they grew up as kids.  For a guy in his situation, it's not about the money.  I'm not even talking about all NHL players in general, just the superstars who are commanding salaries in the multi-millions per season.  Guys like Stamkos, Nash, Crosby etc.  These guys are all financially set already and if it were their "dream" to play for a different team than they're already on, they should do whatever it takes to make that dream happen.  If you're a regular NHL'er, someone making under $1M/year, then yes you go for the best possible contract you can get because you know careers are short and you want to put away as much as you can regardless of which team it's from. 

This idea that some of these guys "dream" of playing for the Leafs rings hollow to me.  Like I said, if I were in their position, having already made what, $25-$30M for Nash (yes pre-tax, take half away it's still multi-millions), I'd do everything I could to get to the Leafs. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sucka on January 27, 2012, 03:11:36 PM
CBJ made an offer no player in their sane mind would refuse, and no agent would say he should wait, plus the future looked pretty good there at that point.



Sure, then it's about the money.  Don't give me this romantic view that he dreams of being a Leaf then.  If that truly was his dream he would have done everything to sign here.  He was already a multi millionaire before that contract, it's not as if he needed the extra money.  He also would know that through his contract and endorsements in Toronto he'd be more than set for life.  I'm tired of hearing how many players "dream" about playing for the Leafs and then sign in a crappy hockey market like Columbus.

Well let's not get all emotional about it. Has money never changed your mind on a dream or at least postponed it?  Most of us are not the rare types who ignore money and security and risk it all to chase their dream.  Certainly not when we have agents telling us what to do.


I think pro sports is a little different than chasing your dream in real life.  Like I said, Nash was already a multi-millionaire and even if he suffered a career ending injury as you said, he'd still be able to pull in money from endorsements.  It's not the same thing.

I think the term "dream" is thrown around too easily.  Would Nash "like" to play for the Leafs -- sure I think he would.  Would he do everything in his power to make that happen, i.e. wait 1 year for his contract to expire and sign with the Leafs -- no.

Like someone said, apart from the rare individual, cash will always be king.  How many people would rather stay in a higher paying job rather than go to a Top-20 employer for less?  And who's to say 65M is alot? after all the tax man takes a big chunk.  You can't blame anyone coming out and expressing a desire to play in Toronto but sign elsewhere for the big contract.   A windfall of 50M for me and you is pretty much not going to make a lick of difference were it 60M or 40M.  But a 80K salary vs a 120K salary would probably dictate where we choose to work.  Our 80K vs 120K is Nash's 50M vs 60M.

C'mon.  We're talking financial independence for the rest of your life at his old contract (before the $65M), you can't compare that to someone who has to work until 65 at $80K/year.  If it was my dream to start my own business, and I was already financially secure and knew that even if the dream failed, I would still be alright and not have to worry about my family's financial security, then I would persue that dream.  That's a better analogy.  He doesn't *need* the money.  Sure it's fantastic to have all that extra cash, but it's not essential.  There's a big difference.

But like I said before, who's to say what a person's needs are?  Sure i bet as a 16 yr old, he was dreaming about getting his hands on his dad's Sunfire for the friday night and at that time, that was his 'need'.  Now as a multimillionaire athlete, his basic needs aren't a Sunfire and a roof over his head.  His downsizing if worse comes to worse would be trading in his Ferrarri for a more modest Bentley.  You can apply this to your own scenario...when you started working, you probably didn't tailor your finances to maintain or to own a 4000sq ft home, becuase it just wasn't in your financial sphere to do so.  It was a dream at most, but now that you make considerably more, so too do your basic needs move up too and you start planning for own such a home.  I mean, you give me 65M dollars and I can give you a detailed account of how I can probably spend it.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sucka on January 27, 2012, 03:23:14 PM
You are totally ignoring human nature here.  If i live in a 10,000 sq ft home with a fleet of 6 cars, I'm going to find a way to afford a 20,000 sq ft home and add to my fleet of cars. 
If what you're saying is true, people like Oprah, with all her charitable foundations, you'd think she wouldn't need to live in a friggin compound with 20 bathrooms and maybe move down to what you say is reasonable and help out her cause a little more?
I know what you're saying, but literally, it really is a 'dream' cuz the reality of it is, for pretty much 99.9% of the human population, more will always be better than less.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 03:27:48 PM
You are totally ignoring human nature here.  If i live in a 10,000 sq ft home with a fleet of 6 cars, I'm going to find a way to afford a 20,000 sq ft home and add to my fleet of cars. 
If what you're saying is true, people like Oprah, with all her charitable foundations, you'd think she wouldn't need to live in a friggin compound with 20 bathrooms and maybe move down to what you say is reasonable and help out her cause a little more?
I know what you're saying, but literally, it really is a 'dream' cuz the reality of it is, for pretty much 99.9% of the human population, more will always be better than less.

But I'm not, I'm just saying it's BS to say it's his "dream" to play for the Leafs.  At a certain point he'd want to seriously shoot for that dream, signing for 8 years in Columbus is counter intuitive to that.  It's not as if he would have been begging on the streets signing with the Leafs either.  Maybe he doesn't get the same salary, but he makes more money in larger endorsements so it's a wash.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 27, 2012, 03:31:38 PM
Well, it was Kovalchuks dream to get the hell out of dodge even with 100m on the table but I think some slack can be cut to say it's a dream to do x and money gets in the way, happens to a lot of people.

I still don't know that it was Nash' dream to play in TO either, that seems to be coming from everyone but him.

Also, he could have felt just a teensy obligation to the team that drafted him and made him rich to start with.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sucka on January 27, 2012, 03:31:50 PM
You are totally ignoring human nature here.  If i live in a 10,000 sq ft home with a fleet of 6 cars, I'm going to find a way to afford a 20,000 sq ft home and add to my fleet of cars. 
If what you're saying is true, people like Oprah, with all her charitable foundations, you'd think she wouldn't need to live in a friggin compound with 20 bathrooms and maybe move down to what you say is reasonable and help out her cause a little more?
I know what you're saying, but literally, it really is a 'dream' cuz the reality of it is, for pretty much 99.9% of the human population, more will always be better than less.

But I'm not, I'm just saying it's BS to say it's his "dream" to play for the Leafs.  At a certain point he'd want to seriously shoot for that dream, signing for 8 years in Columbus is counter intuitive to that.  It's not as if he would have been begging on the streets signing with the Leafs either.  Maybe he doesn't get the same salary, but he makes more money in larger endorsements so it's a wash.

He could make more, but like i had in my edited post way back, as the numbers go up, your natural aversion to risk will steer you to the guaranteed option even though you 'might' make more with the more risky choice.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on January 27, 2012, 03:33:58 PM
You are totally ignoring human nature here.  If i live in a 10,000 sq ft home with a fleet of 6 cars, I'm going to find a way to afford a 20,000 sq ft home and add to my fleet of cars. 
If what you're saying is true, people like Oprah, with all her charitable foundations, you'd think she wouldn't need to live in a friggin compound with 20 bathrooms and maybe move down to what you say is reasonable and help out her cause a little more?
I know what you're saying, but literally, it really is a 'dream' cuz the reality of it is, for pretty much 99.9% of the human population, more will always be better than less.

But I'm not, I'm just saying it's BS to say it's his "dream" to play for the Leafs.  At a certain point he'd want to seriously shoot for that dream, signing for 8 years in Columbus is counter intuitive to that.  It's not as if he would have been begging on the streets signing with the Leafs either.  Maybe he doesn't get the same salary, but he makes more money in larger endorsements so it's a wash.

He could make more, but like i had in my edited post way back, as the numbers go up, your natural aversion to risk will steer you to the guaranteed option even though you 'might' make more with the more risky choice.

After every Columbus loss, I hope he goes to bed shaking his head thinking "why didn't I hold out for the Leafs?"  ;) :D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zid on January 27, 2012, 03:35:55 PM
You are totally ignoring human nature here.  If i live in a 10,000 sq ft home with a fleet of 6 cars, I'm going to find a way to afford a 20,000 sq ft home and add to my fleet of cars. 
If what you're saying is true, people like Oprah, with all her charitable foundations, you'd think she wouldn't need to live in a friggin compound with 20 bathrooms and maybe move down to what you say is reasonable and help out her cause a little more?
I know what you're saying, but literally, it really is a 'dream' cuz the reality of it is, for pretty much 99.9% of the human population, more will always be better than less.

But I'm not, I'm just saying it's BS to say it's his "dream" to play for the Leafs.  At a certain point he'd want to seriously shoot for that dream, signing for 8 years in Columbus is counter intuitive to that.  It's not as if he would have been begging on the streets signing with the Leafs either.  Maybe he doesn't get the same salary, but he makes more money in larger endorsements so it's a wash.

He could make more, but like i had in my edited post way back, as the numbers go up, your natural aversion to risk will steer you to the guaranteed option even though you 'might' make more with the more risky choice.

After every Columbus loss, I hope he goes to bed shaking his head thinking "why didn't I hold out for the Leafs?"  ;) :D

Same Leafs that haven't made the plays off in 7 years?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on January 27, 2012, 03:39:48 PM
Same Leafs that haven't made the plays off in 7 years?

1 out of 8?...
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: #1PilarFan on January 27, 2012, 03:40:41 PM
He's probably shaking his head wondering why he didn't hold out for Boston.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sucka on January 27, 2012, 03:49:54 PM
I dunno, pretty much everything that athletes (and non-atheletes) say on camera, aren't they mostly BS anyway?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Damian on January 27, 2012, 04:32:11 PM
Pretty much
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: lamajama on January 27, 2012, 07:12:23 PM
I've read the last few pages with interest and will chime in with this comment regarding the big contract...Burke would never have given
Nash the same term I believe so IMO Nash looked at that and then took
the guaranteed dough.

If he had truly wanted to come to TO he would have. He certainly could have gone back to CBJ after July 1 - and if it was a "sign or else" offer I don't think anyone would believe Nash could not have got an offer that would have met or surpassed the CBJ one.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2012, 02:31:22 PM
Because the possibility of moving Schenn for an impending UFA has been brought up by some, I thought I'd highlight some of the more prominent UFAs that have been moved at or near the deadline over the last few seasons to we can get a better idea as to the value they really hold.

Ilya Kovalchuk: Traded from Atlanta Thrashers with Anssi Salmela and 2nd round pick in the 2010 draft to New Jersey Devils for Johnny Oduya, Nicklas Bergfors, Patrice Cormier, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick in the 2010 draft.

Marian Hossa: Traded from Atlanta Thrashers with Pascal Dupuis to Pittsburgh Penguins for Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st round pick in the 2008 draft.

Keith Tkachuk: Traded from St. Louis Blues to Atlanta Thrashers for Glen Metropolit, a 1st round and a 3rd round pick in the 2007 draft and a 2nd round pick in the 2008 draft.

Brian Campbell: Traded from Buffalo Sabres with a 7th round pick in the 2008 draft to San Jose Sharks for Steve Bernier and a 1st round pick in the 2008 draft.

Ryan Smyth: Traded from Edmonton Oilers to New York Islanders for Robert Nilsson, Ryan O'Marra and a 1st round pick in the 2007 draft.

If guys like Parise or Suter are to be moved at the deadline, these deals are the templates the teams are likely to follow, and, as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a single prospect or young player moved in any of these deals of the same calibre/value as Schenn.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 28, 2012, 02:34:27 PM
If guys like Parise or Suter are to be moved at the deadline, these deals are the templates the teams are likely to follow, and, as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a single prospect or young player moved in any of these deals of the same calibre/value as Schenn.

And unless I'm mistaken, isn't Kovalchuk the only one of that bunch to re-sign with the club that traded for him?

Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2012, 02:35:59 PM
And unless I'm mistaken, isn't Kovalchuk the only one of that bunch to re-sign with the club that traded for him?

Yup, he is, though, Tkachuk's rights were traded back to St Louis.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 28, 2012, 02:37:15 PM
Busta, don't you think that at the time of those deals, a couple guys there might have been of the "same calibre/value" as Schenn?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 28, 2012, 02:38:18 PM
And unless I'm mistaken, isn't Kovalchuk the only one of that bunch to re-sign with the club that traded for him?

Yup, he is, though, Tkachuk's rights were traded back to St Louis.

Well, I guess I don't like those odds.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2012, 02:45:25 PM
Busta, don't you think that at the time of those deals, a couple guys there might have been of the "same calibre/value" as Schenn?

Not really, no. Most of them were much more green than Schenn. They were rookies or 2nd year guys with obvious holes in their game that, in a number of cases, see them out of the league or on the fringes of the league only 3 or 4 seasons later. There are no bluechip prospects in there, no top 10 picks or anything of that ilk being sent to the team trading the prominent UFA. They're depth guys, maybes, projects, 2nd tier prospects and the like.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2012, 02:48:50 PM
And unless I'm mistaken, isn't Kovalchuk the only one of that bunch to re-sign with the club that traded for him?

Yup, he is, though, Tkachuk's rights were traded back to St Louis.

Well, I guess I don't like those odds.

It's not really all that surprising either, when you think about it. These are guys that really feel no connection to the team they're finishing their contract with, and, they've already living in a temporary residence, so, they're not established in the city in any meaningful way. Staying on with the team that traded for them or moving to another city doesn't present much of a difference to their immediate futures, so, it's in their best interests to put themselves and see what the best offer and the best fits available are - and, as we can see, more often than not, it's somewhere other than the team they most recently played for.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sarge on January 28, 2012, 02:57:40 PM
Busta, don't you think that at the time of those deals, a couple guys there might have been of the "same calibre/value" as Schenn?

Not really, no. Most of them were much more green than Schenn. They were rookies or 2nd year guys with obvious holes in their game that, in a number of cases, see them out of the league or on the fringes of the league only 3 or 4 seasons later. There are no bluechip prospects in there, no top 10 picks or anything of that ilk being sent to the team trading the prominent UFA. They're depth guys, maybes, projects, 2nd tier prospects and the like.

I take a look at Bernier who the year before he was traded from SJ was what only 21? and had 15 goals in just 62 games and was a .50 pts/game player... Former 1st round pick with great size... I thought he was going to be a good one. Obviously, I was wrong. Still, he was one of those guys I thought might valued as much as Luke Schenn might be now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
I take a look at Bernier who the year before he was traded from SJ was what only 21? and had 15 goals in just 62 games and was a .50 pts/game player... Former 1st round pick with great size... I thought he was going to be a good one. Obviously, I was wrong. Still, he was one of those guys I thought might valued as much as Luke Schenn might be now.

Bernier still had a few flaws that have obviously lead to him not being in the league anymore. He had taken a step back by the time he was moved. Within a couple months of being traded to Buffalo, they moved him for a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick. I doubt too many people here would accept that in return for Schenn, and I know Burke wouldn't.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: leafplasma on January 29, 2012, 10:20:10 PM
Twitter a buzz with the latest rumour supposedly put out by the Edmonton Journal:

Jeff Carter and Jackets 1st for Schenn and Grabs

Jackets would never do that deal, ridiculous rumour.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
Twitter a buzz with the latest rumour supposedly put out by the Edmonton Journal:

Jeff Carter and Jackets 1st for Schenn and Grabs

Jackets would never do that deal, ridiculous rumour.

There's so much wrong there, just so much.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 29, 2012, 10:39:25 PM
Buzz?

I see nobody of note saying this.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: leafplasma on January 29, 2012, 10:45:48 PM
Buzz?

I see nobody of note saying this.

Exactly, just do a search on twitter, lots of talk but from nobody of significance.  I wonder if the Edmonton Journal really even truly stated this or that was made up as well.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2012, 11:31:26 PM
Something that occurred to me today - because of the Leafs' cap situation when Armstrong and Liles are activated off the IR, any deal that has the Leafs adding more than a nominal amount of cap would either have to go down the same day another deal that would balance that issue (or, after such a deal went down, if a purely cap space related trade is made) or no later than noon on the day before a game to allow for players to be placed on waivers with enough time to clear before the team's next game (depending on what moves the team makes to activate Armstrong and Liles - if they keep Kadri & Gardiner up, which they likely will, they could send them to Marlies to clear some cap space in the event of a trade they're not a part of).
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 30, 2012, 05:14:17 AM
UPDATE: The general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs has yet to make a blockbuster -- but not for lack of effort.

According to QMI Agency, Brian Burke is busting his caboose in the attempt to improve his club.

"He's trying. He's trying hard. He definitely wants to get bigger," a league executive said Thursday.

There's also the suggestion the Maple Leafs could be interested in Ryane Clowe of the San Jose Sharks. However, talk out of San Jose indicates the Sharks would be very reluctant to lose a top-six winger like Clowe.

Jeff Blair of the Globe and Mail suggests that would be the best course of action for general manager Brian Burke:

"... Burke doesn't need anyone to remind him that he needs to make a significant acquisition; that it makes no sense to go all-in with a head coach who hasn't had a sniff of the playoffs since he's been in Toronto and then sit back ... (Luke) Schenn and forward Nazem Kadri should most definitely be in play -- as should about 80 per cent of the roster and anybody with the AHL's Toronto Marlies ... There is a premium to be paid for being able to make a trade in advance of the league's Feb. 27 deadline and now is not the time to be shy ..."

A significant move by Burke before the end of January wouldn't come as any surprise. The Leafs have an excess of assets (ie. talented defensemen, young centermen) to move in exchange for the coveted big, top-six winger -- perhaps from the Anaheim Ducks. It will be a much larger shock if such a deal doesn't go down. And soon.

Source:  ESPN
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on January 30, 2012, 09:27:39 AM
Twitter a buzz with the latest rumour supposedly put out by the Edmonton Journal:

Jeff Carter and Jackets 1st for Schenn and Grabs

Jackets would never do that deal, ridiculous rumour.

There's so much wrong there, just so much.

I would think that of all the top centers out there, Carter is the most available.  I just don't think that Columbus would throw in the possible 1st pick overall to unload him under ANY circumstance except a young franchise player coming back to Columbus.

Compared to Getzlaf, who admittedly is having a bad year, Carter is a better faceoff guy as far as I can tell.  Getzlaf is bigger ofcourse at 6-4 220 compared to Carter at 6-3 200.

I would rather see the Leafs trade Connolly and MacArthur for Carter @ $5.27 and hope it works out then see Burke empty the cupboards of depth for a single high priced player like E. Staal @ $8.25 MIL.

Trading Schenn for a 2nd line winger would free up MacArthur as trade bait who is a decent offensive talent.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: BlueWhiteBlood on January 30, 2012, 11:31:14 AM
As much as all the rumours of actual deals that have been put on paper have been wrong sounding, Pierre LeBrun believes that Carter indeed may be on his way out of Columbus, because he really doesn't want to be there.


Meanwhile in Columbus, GM Scott Howson is expecting he'll be a very busy man in the next four weeks. Aside from the obvious rental players (players who will be UFAs on July 1) he’ll attempt to move, keep an eye on center Jeff Carter. Howson, we’re told, is willing to move Carter less than a year after acquiring him from the Flyers, in part because the player doesn’t want to be in Columbus. But can Howson find a taker for Carter’s contract? He’s in the first season of an 11-year, $58-million contract (cap hit $5.27 million). (http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/14334/trade-rumblings-ruutu-carter-on-move)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on January 30, 2012, 12:43:55 PM
DarrenDreger: A couple of sketchy trade rumours out there. Can tell you the Leafs, according to Burke have never discussed Nash trade..."Ever."
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on January 30, 2012, 01:19:17 PM
DarrenDreger: A couple of sketchy trade rumours out there. Can tell you the Leafs, according to Burke have never discussed Nash trade..."Ever."

Sketchy. lol @ Watters.  I'm going to start calling him Old Man Eklund.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on January 30, 2012, 01:22:09 PM
DarrenDreger: A couple of sketchy trade rumours out there. Can tell you the Leafs, according to Burke have never discussed Nash trade..."Ever."

Sketchy. lol @ Watters.  I'm going to start calling him Old Man Eklund.

Years ago, was he not the one that said the Leafs signed (traded for?) Jamie Rivers?  And that became a running joke for years.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on February 02, 2012, 09:09:27 AM
Crazy trade proposals on the Internet will begin to increase to insane levels in the next few weeks (Z4)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on February 02, 2012, 09:37:53 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: 13 on February 02, 2012, 09:49:15 AM
What? You implying  the Finger and Zigomanous for Hall trade is just a  crazy rumour? Curses!!!   ;)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on February 02, 2012, 10:23:43 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.

Deadline day has become a bit of a joke too.  They sit there for 8-10 hours waiting for things to happen and so little seems to nowadays.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zid on February 02, 2012, 10:44:13 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.

Deadline day has become a bit of a joke too.  They sit there for 8-10 hours waiting for things to happen and so little seems to nowadays.

You mean you don't like a panel of 15 "experts" going gaga for an hour over a mega deal of the day: Dustin Penner for misc scrubs
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on February 02, 2012, 10:44:50 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.

Deadline day has become a bit of a joke too.  They sit there for 8-10 hours waiting for things to happen and so little seems to nowadays.

Yeah. They've built that day up to a crescendo. The excitement factor is never what TSN promises by the end of the day.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Erndog on February 02, 2012, 10:58:40 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.

Deadline day has become a bit of a joke too.  They sit there for 8-10 hours waiting for things to happen and so little seems to nowadays.

Yeah. They've built that day up to a crescendo. The excitement factor is never what TSN promises by the end of the day.

TSN does this with everything.

Deadline day, the draft, the World Juniors, and my favourite.... the UFA July 1st extravaganza!  Where they sit there for hours waitin for someone to sign the moment free agency opens!

I remember one of the first years they did it, nothing happened for hours and the first big signing was Todd White in Atlanta.  I think they realized then it was a bit of a joke.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on February 02, 2012, 11:06:31 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.

Deadline day has become a bit of a joke too.  They sit there for 8-10 hours waiting for things to happen and so little seems to nowadays.

You mean you don't like a panel of 15 "experts" going gaga for an hour over a mega deal of the day: Dustin Penner for misc scrubs

Maybe Sportsnet will bring back Eklund for the day.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Corn Flake on February 02, 2012, 11:15:02 AM
It seems a number of media outlets have resorted to making up rumors and talking about how they might happen, basically like half the threads here.

The Star has a daily trade rumor evaluation thing going on and this morning on sportsnet I caught the end of a bunch of random trade proposals being made up by John shannon and some other guy.  Shannon tabled Semin to Detroit and blabbed about it happening. Ummmmmmmmmmm.

They've all become eklunds.

Deadline day has become a bit of a joke too.  They sit there for 8-10 hours waiting for things to happen and so little seems to nowadays.

You mean you don't like a panel of 15 "experts" going gaga for an hour over a mega deal of the day: Dustin Penner for misc scrubs

Maybe Sportsnet will bring back Eklund for the day.

Oh right! Eklund up in the rafters of the studio playing shadow puppets with himself.  One of the most hilariously awful pieces of sports media production ever.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on February 02, 2012, 11:16:08 AM
Oh right! Eklund up in the rafters of the studio playing shadow puppets with himself.  One of the most hilariously awful pieces of sports media production ever.

His announcement of an extension for Ryan Smyth moments before the trade to the Islanders was announced is still comedy gold.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on February 02, 2012, 07:40:43 PM
Oh right! Eklund up in the rafters of the studio playing shadow puppets with himself.  One of the most hilariously awful pieces of sports media production ever.

His announcement of an extension for Ryan Smyth moments before the trade to the Islanders was announced is still comedy gold.

Was he really on Sportsnet?  Or was that a blog he put on his website?  I was trying to find a picture of him, but the one site I found has pictures of him, but I don't know how credible it is.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on February 02, 2012, 07:49:48 PM
Was he really on Sportsnet?  Or was that a blog he put on his website?  I was trying to find a picture of him, but the one site I found has pictures of him, but I don't know how credible it is.

They had him in a dimly lit booth. It was sad and hilarious.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: No.92 on February 02, 2012, 07:55:12 PM
Was he really on Sportsnet?  Or was that a blog he put on his website?  I was trying to find a picture of him, but the one site I found has pictures of him, but I don't know how credible it is.

They had him in a dimly lit booth. It was sad and hilarious.

So you basically couldn't see his face?  The depths that some stations will go to for ratings... my goodness.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Zee on February 03, 2012, 08:44:47 AM
Was he really on Sportsnet?  Or was that a blog he put on his website?  I was trying to find a picture of him, but the one site I found has pictures of him, but I don't know how credible it is.

They had him in a dimly lit booth. It was sad and hilarious.

So you basically couldn't see his face?  The depths that some stations will go to for ratings... my goodness.

Oh yeah, he was actually on Sportsnet during trade deadline day.  I remember them advertising it leading up to the day with the "internet rumor king Eklund" or some nonsense like that.  For whatever reason I never got to see it though, I think I might have been working at the office that day, before the days of "work at home" allowed me to browse tv stations whenever I want.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on February 03, 2012, 09:53:49 AM
Didn't they dress him up like the Phantom <from Phantom of the Opera>?
Or was that Grapes?
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sudafederov on February 03, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
Dreger was on TSN Radio saying that the Leafs and Kings have been scouting each other.

Kings "eyeballing" Kulemin and MacArthur, but nothing more than that.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on February 03, 2012, 07:31:28 PM
Dreger was on TSN Radio saying that the Leafs and Kings have been scouting each other.

Kings "eyeballing" Kulemin and MacArthur, but nothing more than that.

Seems unlikely that they're meaningful trade partners, maybe a dump in Mac or something.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on February 03, 2012, 07:40:52 PM
Dreger was on TSN Radio saying that the Leafs and Kings have been scouting each other.

Kings "eyeballing" Kulemin and MacArthur, but nothing more than that.

Seems unlikely that they're meaningful trade partners, maybe a dump in Mac or something.

Yeah. Nobody in the Kings lineup I see Burke really interested in. A least no big names the Kings would part with right now.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bleeding Blue & White on February 03, 2012, 08:09:16 PM
Maybe we can do that deal for Richards deal that Phillie didn't give us time to make.  I still like him in the role of Toronto's number 1c.  We would have to dump connolly on them though or bury him with the Marlies.  I'm thinking Colborne + Kulemin + Connolly for Richards and a b prospect or a 2nd. 
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Tigger on February 03, 2012, 08:15:50 PM
Maybe we can do that deal for Richards deal that Phillie didn't give us time to make.  I still like him in the role of Toronto's number 1c.  We would have to dump connolly on them though or bury him with the Marlies.  I'm thinking Colborne + Kulemin + Connolly for Richards and a b prospect or a 2nd.

I'm on the other side of that, no thanks.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Green Leaf on February 03, 2012, 09:30:04 PM
Maybe we can do that deal for Richards deal that Phillie didn't give us time to make.  I still like him in the role of Toronto's number 1c.  We would have to dump connolly on them though or bury him with the Marlies.  I'm thinking Colborne + Kulemin + Connolly for Richards and a b prospect or a 2nd.

I'm on the other side of that, no thanks.

&1 2 that!
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2012, 09:44:01 PM
Maybe we can do that deal for Richards deal that Phillie didn't give us time to make.  I still like him in the role of Toronto's number 1c.  We would have to dump connolly on them though or bury him with the Marlies.  I'm thinking Colborne + Kulemin + Connolly for Richards and a b prospect or a 2nd.

I'm torn on that one. Richards would be a good addition, but, well, he's not the big centre the Leafs ideally need - in fact, he's actually a little on the small side, even though he "plays big." He's also only on pace for 44 points this season. He clearly hasn't been a great fit for LA, and part of me wonders if he'd be a great fit here. Giving up Kulemin and Colborne makes the Leafs current and future forwards very much on the smaller side. Given that I've been preaching patience for this long, I probably risk erring on the side of caution and don't make that deal.

Even though he hasn't worked out well for LA this season, I'm not sure they give up on him so readily, so, it's probably a moot point any ways.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 04, 2012, 01:21:09 AM
Richards would be a good addition, but, well, he's not the big centre the Leafs ideally need - in fact, he's actually a little on the small side, even though he "plays big."

I know we of course ideally would acquire a big number 1 centre, but I really wouldn't make size a priority. You can count on one hand the number of big, physically intimating top-line centres in the league. It's very unlikely we'll find a guy like that. I'd rather focus on adding size throughout the rest of the line-up than in that slot.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Mack674 on February 04, 2012, 08:32:09 AM
I just want the best available center, I don't care if he's 5'5.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: sneakyray on February 04, 2012, 08:45:44 AM
I'll tell you what...I am not hating the idea of going after carter as much as a week ago.

but they better make sure he would be happy here...and they better get him for nothing.

I'm talking the jackets can pick one of connolly or komi...and maybe a throw in late draft pick or low end prospect.  But anything more than that and they can look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: nutman on February 04, 2012, 10:49:32 AM
Maybe we can do that deal for Richards deal that Phillie didn't give us time to make.  I still like him in the role of Toronto's number 1c.  We would have to dump connolly on them though or bury him with the Marlies.  I'm thinking Colborne + Kulemin + Connolly for Richards and a b prospect or a 2nd.

Heck why dont you toss in kessel and the monster, no thanks. he is not worth that much, and i dont see him fitting in.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on February 04, 2012, 10:53:56 AM
I'd say the chances of Richards getting traded out of LA at this point are pretty slim.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: nutman on February 04, 2012, 10:55:30 AM
I'd say the chances of Richards getting traded out of LA at this point are pretty slim.


Good dont want him. I think Burke can do much better, and will.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Madferret on February 04, 2012, 10:58:17 AM
I'd say the chances of Richards getting traded out of LA at this point are pretty slim.


Good dont want him. I think Burke can do much better, and will.

Yeah he's trash.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: RedLeaf on February 04, 2012, 11:05:11 AM
I'd say the chances of Richards getting traded out of LA at this point are pretty slim.


Good dont want him. I think Burke can do much better, and will.

I'd temper your expectations a bit nutman. I'm really not sure Burke will be able to make a big splash before the deadline. I'm hoping for a great trade to happen too, but I wouldnt bet all the marbles on it happening in the next 3 wks.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: bustaheims on February 04, 2012, 11:08:51 AM
I know we of course ideally would acquire a big number 1 centre, but I really wouldn't make size a priority. You can count on one hand the number of big, physically intimating top-line centres in the league. It's very unlikely we'll find a guy like that. I'd rather focus on adding size throughout the rest of the line-up than in that slot.

Sure, but, that proposed deal take a lot of size out of the rest of the line-up - something the Leafs really can't afford to do.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 04, 2012, 11:59:20 AM
I know we of course ideally would acquire a big number 1 centre, but I really wouldn't make size a priority. You can count on one hand the number of big, physically intimating top-line centres in the league. It's very unlikely we'll find a guy like that. I'd rather focus on adding size throughout the rest of the line-up than in that slot.

Sure, but, that proposed deal take a lot of size out of the rest of the line-up - something the Leafs really can't afford to do.

Yeah I wouldn't make that trade.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 04, 2012, 12:36:34 PM
One guy from LA that I would love to see Burke trade for is Kyle Clifford. 21 years old, 6'2' and 208 lbs. Hits everything in sight. He doesn't factor much into LA's penalty killing, although the Kings are filled with forwards who can kill penalties. Not much of a scorer either, with just 23 points in 128 career games (although he's only in his 2nd professional season). The Kings have been playing him in a 2nd line role with Gagne out and he obviously isn't really putting up many points. Perhaps some sort of deal involving MacArthur and Clifford could be worked out? Clears out a spot for Kadri in the top-6 and adds some more size to the bottom-6.

Kadri-Grabovski-Kulemin
Lombardi-Connolly-Clifford
Brown-Steckel-Armstrong
Boyce-Crabb

edit: I just remembered that Sutter is LA's coach now. Clifford probably isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Sudafederov on February 04, 2012, 02:01:27 PM
Lombardi-Connolly-Clifford
(http://3.cdn.nhle.com/mapleleafs/v2/photos/mugs/8468695.jpg) (http://2.cdn.nhle.com/mapleleafs/v2/photos/mugs/8467878.jpg)(http://www.gopartysupplies.com/pimages/small/clifford-the-big-red-dog-foil-balloon.jpg)
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 04, 2012, 10:48:53 PM
Lombardi-Connolly-Clifford
(http://3.cdn.nhle.com/mapleleafs/v2/photos/mugs/8468695.jpg) (http://2.cdn.nhle.com/mapleleafs/v2/photos/mugs/8467878.jpg)(http://www.gopartysupplies.com/pimages/small/clifford-the-big-red-dog-foil-balloon.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: Bullfrog on February 05, 2012, 08:26:34 AM
Well, there's the size we've been looking for.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: moon111 on February 05, 2012, 04:36:23 PM
Clark said when you play in Toronto you're either a Dog or a God.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on February 05, 2012, 07:22:38 PM
@carlton: it sounds, from your description (i dont know how he plays) that clifford isnt that good at defense and is terrible at offense. i think that size is only a means to an end -- if it doesnt help you or your linemates either offensively or defensively it isnt something you should search out just for its own sake.  mac is pretty good both offensively and defensively, so i wouldnt even consider trading mac for clifford.
Title: Re: Burke using depth to go shopping....
Post by: princedpw on February 05, 2012, 07:26:05 PM
@carlton: it sounds, from your description (i dont know how he plays) that clifford isnt that good at defense and is terrible at offense. i th