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Maple Leafs News and Views => Main Leafs Hockey Talk => Topic started by: sickbeast on January 20, 2015, 06:29:27 PM

Title: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on January 20, 2015, 06:29:27 PM
The current leafs team SUCKS! I have joined the tank nation. I encourage all of you to join me. I can no longer support this team until they make major changes and hopefully get a top 5 pick in the draft.

Some of you are saying that the current stretch has been due to bad luck but I day bollocks to all of that nonsense.

TANK NATION UNITE!!!

I miss Bill Watters. :(
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 20, 2015, 07:28:50 PM
I miss Muddy Waters 8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 20, 2015, 07:35:02 PM
Come on in... we're drinking beer in a burned out 18-wheeler... down by the river (Chris Farley, not Neil Young).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on January 20, 2015, 08:03:59 PM
LOL
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: AvroArrow on January 20, 2015, 08:07:37 PM
I was squarely on the side of tank nation last year.  We could have been bad enough to get a top 3 pick had the gutting happened during the last offseason.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 20, 2015, 08:10:05 PM
I never root for a loss in any given game, can't do it.  But in the larger context, I hope for a great measure of tank.

It's time to gut this sucker and let the entrails sink to the bottom of the pond.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: jdh1 on January 20, 2015, 08:56:09 PM
I'm on...Tank nation it is.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mostar on January 20, 2015, 09:09:13 PM
I'm in.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on January 20, 2015, 09:28:49 PM
I never root for a loss in any given game, can't do it.  But in the larger context, I hope for a great measure of tank.

It's time to gut this sucker and let the entrails sink to the bottom of the pond.

Agreed. I hope they can simultaneously win and lose every game.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on January 20, 2015, 09:30:14 PM
As much as this team annoys me, I can never root for them to lose.

The concept is just ridiculous to me.

And even if the Leafs did manage to finish dead last, I guarantee that they wouldn't win the lottery.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 20, 2015, 09:38:16 PM
And even if the Leafs did manage to finish dead last, I guarantee that they wouldn't win the lottery.

In this situation the Leafs would still get the best prospect that they've ever had.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 20, 2015, 09:44:27 PM
And even if the Leafs did manage to finish dead last, I guarantee that they wouldn't win the lottery.

In this situation the Leafs would still get the best prospect that they've ever had.

You know who their last 1000GP in the NHL draft pick was....Tie Domi in 1988.
Their last 1000 point NHL draft pick...Vicent Damphouse in 1986...and then Lanny MacDonald in 1973....and then Darryl Sittler in 1970.  Three 1000 point players drafted by the Leafs in the history of the modern NHL draft.

The Leafs career drafting record is pretty pathetic.  The Leafs have been the perfect combination of not successful and not bad enough to draft a superstar.

I'm all for the Leafs trying hard and coming up short in games but you won't get me rooting for losses either.  Not getting upset at failed comebacks is another thing though.  I'm perfectly ok with that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 20, 2015, 10:01:38 PM
And even if the Leafs did manage to finish dead last, I guarantee that they wouldn't win the lottery.

In this situation the Leafs would still get the best prospect that they've ever had.

You know who their last 1000GP in the NHL draft pick was....Tie Domi in 1988.
Their last 1000 point NHL draft pick...Vicent Damphouse in 1986...and then Lanny MacDonald in 1973....and then Darryl Sittler in 1970.  Three 1000 point players drafted by the Leafs in the history of the modern NHL draft.

The Leafs career drafting record is pretty pathetic.  The Leafs have been the perfect combination of not successful and not bad enough to draft a superstar.

I'm all for the Leafs trying hard and coming up short in games but you won't get me rooting for losses either.  Not getting upset at failed comebacks is another thing though.  I'm perfectly ok with that.

Well as someone on the radio pointed out, in their history, the Leafs have never had the best player at a position in their history.  Not saying that they have too, but it would be nice if they could get a player, and as fans we could say that guy is the best (c,lw,rw,d,g) in the game today.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 20, 2015, 10:13:43 PM
I'm all for the Leafs trying hard and coming up short in games but you won't get me rooting for losses either.  Not getting upset at failed comebacks is another thing though.  I'm perfectly ok with that.

I guess I consider myself a tanker, but I'm not really actively cheering on the other teams. And I don't get upset when the Leafs score or something. I'm just as happy seeing them lose as I am seeing them win.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 20, 2015, 10:20:17 PM
So when we unite, do we make a sound like in the transformers when Devastator united, or is there a catchphrase like "Go, go shoddy defence", maybe a totally uncoordinated gang sign?  Just wondering.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 20, 2015, 10:26:06 PM
So when we unite, do we make a sound like in the transformers when Devastator united, or is there a catchphrase like "Go, go shoddy defence", maybe a totally uncoordinated gang sign?  Just wondering.

Suggestions for chants:

"Fall down Clarkson"
"Eat at Kessel's"
"Glove side Reimer"
"Bring back Carlyle"
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rob on January 20, 2015, 10:40:52 PM
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu247/angelofdeath564/Motivationals/zoltan-motivational.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 20, 2015, 10:43:55 PM
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu247/angelofdeath564/Motivationals/zoltan-motivational.jpg)

The only thing that needs bubble wrap is the Leafs first round pick.  That  must be protected at all costs.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 20, 2015, 11:25:02 PM
Siegel with an incredibly thorough, incredibly depressing account of the unbelievably bad management of this team since 2003:

http://www.tsn.ca/management-failures-at-heart-of-current-leaf-state-1.187809 (http://www.tsn.ca/management-failures-at-heart-of-current-leaf-state-1.187809)

It is mind-boggling.  I honestly think I could have done a better job managing assets, and I am a jackass.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mostar on January 21, 2015, 01:16:09 AM
Yikes, that article is depressing.

I'm all for a fresh resart. Wendel for Mats was the last trade that netted the Leafs a real 1st line/leader/player. It ain't gonna happen that way again outside of drafting that player.

Tank you, tank you very much.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on January 21, 2015, 04:22:59 AM
Short term pain for long term gain.

Although I'm not sure what long term pain for the last 9 or so years has done for us. It's been the wrong kind of pain I guess.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on January 21, 2015, 07:37:19 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong but I think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

Ohh... I was wrong. Forgot it was boyes. I thought it was just macauley and a 1st.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 21, 2015, 07:42:38 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 21, 2015, 07:49:28 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.

I can't do it. I can't wish for a loss. I am also under the opinion that this team will not be saved by drafting McDavid. He is only one player. I am also have the same opinion of Joe S, the NHL would not let him come to Toronto anyways.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on January 21, 2015, 08:32:18 AM
I can cheer for them to lose. They're going to lose anyway, might as well get something other than a 15th overall pick for it. Doesn't mean I'll enjoy cheering for them to lose, but enjoy and the Leafs are two words that rarely go together these days, unless the word not is in there.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on January 21, 2015, 08:41:34 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong but I think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

Ohh... I was wrong. Forgot it was boyes. I thought it was just macauley and a 1st.

I was in Toronto that season and saw them play 3 games against Tampa, Colorado and Ottawa. I recall they won 1, lost 1 and drew 2-2 with Ottawa. The Ottawa game goes down as probably the best game of hockey I've ever seen for the combined quality of the teams, and the atmosphere in the arena.

As a Belfast native, I was of course delighted to see Nolan in the Leafs sweater too. He was also a genuine top class player at that time, and I guess we didn't know the trouble he was going to have with that knee injury.

As someone who was only really just getting into the team from around that era, little did I know it would be the beginning of a fruitless, frustrating and unrewarding relationship!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 09:11:43 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 09:16:50 AM
And basically the conclusion from that article (hey Brendan, know you're reading) should be: don't trade anymore draft picks (exception: involves young, elite talent returning) and especially don't treat 2nd rounders like worthless commodities to include in every deal.

Oh god almost forgot about this already:

The Leafs then bought out that contract (Tim Gleason) and will have it on the books until the end of the 2018 season.

So unnecessarily dumb.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 09:36:17 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 09:37:22 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 09:43:14 AM
I never root for a loss in any given game, can't do it.  But in the larger context, I hope for a great measure of tank.

It's time to gut this sucker and let the entrails sink to the bottom of the pond.

I can't really, either, until last few games of the season when they're legitimately jockeying for a better draft position. Right now, it's more that I'm less enthusiastic about wins because I see them as being fruitless endeavours.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on January 21, 2015, 09:45:40 AM
I am all talk. I am always saying yes lets tank. lose very game etc.. then they drop the puck and I jsut cant do it. I still get excited whenever they score.. so i guess in reality count me out of tank nation.. Plus our hsitory of drafting is pretty poor. I think the scouting staff needs a huge overhaul
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on January 21, 2015, 09:48:48 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.

So who would be the 2015 player equivalent to Raycroft that we could trade Nylander for?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 09:49:21 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.

So who would be the 2015 player equivalent to Raycroft that we could trade Nylander for?

Clarkson?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on January 21, 2015, 09:51:02 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.

So who would be the 2015 player equivalent to Raycroft that we could trade Nylander for?

Clarkson?

 :'(

Do you have to be so right?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 09:55:45 AM
I never root for a loss in any given game, can't do it.  But in the larger context, I hope for a great measure of tank.

It's time to gut this sucker and let the entrails sink to the bottom of the pond.

I can't really, either, until last few games of the season when they're legitimately jockeying for a better draft position. Right now, it's more that I'm less enthusiastic about wins because I see them as being fruitless endeavours.

Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 09:58:20 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

Ahh...love that trade. 

Hypothetical question...

Assume it was Pogge instead of Rask in that trade.

Is there anyone other than me who thinks there is an outside shot (i.e. not a guarantee) that it is Pogge with the Stanley Cup and the Vezina, and Rask outside the NHL?

Inference being that it was the Toronto team/system that ruined Pogge and the Boston team/system that helped to make Rask what he is today (Chara/Bergeron in their primes could make a lot of goalies).   

If I recall correctly that at the time of the trade the talent levels of Rask/Pogge were considered to be at a similar level (i don't know this to be true since i don't follow junior/euro hockey so I have to assume based on what i remember hearing at the time).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

Ahh...love that trade. 

Hypothetical question...

Assume it was Pogge instead of Rask in that trade.

Is there anyone other than me who thinks there is an outside shot (i.e. not a guarantee) that it is Pogge with the Stanley Cup and the Vezina, and Rask outside the NHL?

Inference being that it was the Toronto team/system that ruined Pogge and the Boston team/system that helped to make Rask what he is today (Chara/Bergeron in their primes could make a lot of goalies).   

If I recall correctly that at the time of the trade the talent levels of Rask/Pogge were considered to be at a similar level (i don't know this to be true since i don't follow junior/euro hockey so I have to assume based on what i remember hearing at the time).

Short answer: nope.

Rask was a legitimate 1st round pick and considered the best goalie outside of the NHL for years until he broke into the league.

Pogge didn't really have much other than hype from being on the WJHC team.  There was really nowhere near the same excitement about him from scouts.

I'm sure Boston's style has helped Rask's overall numbers, but he'd be great regardless.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 10:02:25 AM
Hypothetical question...

Assume it was Pogge instead of Rask in that trade.

Is there anyone other than me who thinks there is an outside shot (i.e. not a guarantee) that it is Pogge with the Stanley Cup and the Vezina, and Rask outside the NHL?

Inference being that it was the Toronto team/system that ruined Pogge and the Boston team/system that helped to make Rask what he is today (Chara/Bergeron in their primes could make a lot of goalies).   

If I recall correctly that at the time of the trade the talent levels of Rask/Pogge were considered to be at a similar level (i don't know this to be true since i don't follow junior/euro hockey so I have to assume based on what i remember hearing at the time).

No. I think Pogge's stock was artificially inflated by his performance at the WJHC, and, while his junior numbers looked pretty good, he was playing behind a very stingy defensive team. I don't think any of the professionals ever considered Pogge to be on par with Rask. Maybe some of the talking heads said something to that effect, but, that's about it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 21, 2015, 10:04:43 AM
Even at the time of the trade, there were tons of people (myself included) that saw Pogge as nothing more than maybe a back-up in the NHL. Rask was generally considered a top 2 or 3 goalie prospect at the time.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 10:06:40 AM
Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.

Yeah, though, they're already 9 points out, so, even if they manage to keep pace with the teams ahead of them, that's still a big enough gap to put the team into sell mode. Really, though, the decision to sell or not should be made much earlier - possibly as early as this weekend (teams usually have front office meetings during the All Star break for that purpose). The groundwork for deadline day deal is often laid weeks before the trades go down, so, unless they Leafs have a significant winning streak out of the break, they're going to be in a position where they should be selling.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Peter D. on January 21, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

I know this doesn't pertain to the premise of the article, but along the same line while discussing goalies, the trade that still bothers me to no end to this day is the one that brought Wendel Clark back from the Islanders which saw the Leafs' 1st go the other way (as well as Jonsson).  The pick of course that ended up being Roberto Luongo.  I don't know if the Leafs would have drafted him, but that pick right there would have set the Leafs up for the next two decades.

And the Rask for Raycroft trade still bothers me to this day.  It's the 1A to the Clark trade for the all-time Leaf trades I despise.  God what was Ferguson thinking.  Pogge was a sack of crap who had Trevor Kidd written all over him. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on January 21, 2015, 10:10:29 AM

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

That is correct. In terms of setting the team back for years, off the top of my head, the worst trades I've witnessed in my career as a leafs fan are:

1. a 1st round pick for Tom Kurvers
2. Rask for Raycroft
3. Steen and Colaiacovo for jackass
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 10:13:40 AM
Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.

Yeah, though, they're already 9 points out, so, even if they manage to keep pace with the teams ahead of them, that's still a big enough gap to put the team into sell mode. Really, though, the decision to sell or not should be made much earlier - possibly as early as this weekend (teams usually have front office meetings during the All Star break for that purpose). The groundwork for deadline day deal is often laid weeks before the trades go down, so, unless they Leafs have a significant winning streak out of the break, they're going to be in a position where they should be selling.

Yeah, should be... but then again we've heard reports of them opening negotiations with Santorelli and Franson. I really hope they don't give Santorelli a contract like Raymond got with Calgary. Trade him, go back to the UFA scrap heap next year to find another player like him or let someone from the farm take the position.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Peter D. on January 21, 2015, 10:16:47 AM
It was a simple trade, but the Perrault for a 2nd trade bugged me.  It was a move that continued to signal a quick fix. 

Was just reminded it turned out to be Roman Josi.  :-X
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 10:17:38 AM
Even if Pogge was the real deal, they still traded a highly regarded prospect for Raycroft who was coming off a year with a 3.71GAA and .879 SV%.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 10:21:59 AM
Yeah, should be... but then again we've heard reports of them opening negotiations with Santorelli and Franson. I really hope they don't give Santorelli a contract like Raymond got with Calgary. Trade him, go back to the UFA scrap heap next year to find another player like him or let someone from the farm take the position.

I agree, and part of me wonders if maybe the talk of those negotiations is more about making it known that the Leafs aren't just going to give away those players rather than being focused on signing them. The timing is curious, as is the fact that the only person we've really heard it from is Damian Cox.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on January 21, 2015, 10:24:44 AM
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

I know this doesn't pertain to the premise of the article, but along the same line while discussing goalies, the trade that still bothers me to no end to this day is the one that brought Wendel Clark back from the Islanders which saw the Leafs' 1st go the other way (as well as Jonsson).  The pick of course that ended up being Roberto Luongo.  I don't know if the Leafs would have drafted him, but that pick right there would have set the Leafs up for the next two decades.

And the Rask for Raycroft trade still bothers me to this day.  It's the 1A to the Clark trade for the all-time Leaf trades I despise.  God what was Ferguson thinking.  Pogge was a sack of crap who had Trevor Kidd written all over him.

You're right - I forgot about that one - that was a ridiculous trade. And that was still Fletcher wasn't it?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 10:28:25 AM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Andy on January 21, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
Fletcher 2.0 was just awful. The Finger contract, giving up a 3rd for Jamal Myers, Steen + Cola for Stempniak, multiple picks to move up two spots in draft. But nothing compares to JFJ and his goalie trades. Man, a 1st, 2nd and 4th for Toskala, a backup with average stats on a stacked SJ team? Wow.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 10:37:09 AM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Yeah...that one still bugs me.  I actually googled it yesterday.

It's almost as if though the Leafs should be doing the "opposite" of what they have actually done, kinda like George Costanza.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 10:39:02 AM
Fletcher 2.0 was just awful. The Finger contract, giving up a 3rd for Jamal Myers, Steen + Cola for Stempniak, multiple picks to move up two spots in draft. But nothing compares to JFJ and his goalie trades. Man, a 1st, 2nd and 4th for Toskala, a backup with average stats on a stacked SJ team? Wow.

Remember the rumors were that Fletcher got the Finger signing incorrect!   The theory being that he was actually thinking of another player from Colorado to sign.

Those were fun times too...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 10:40:25 AM
We should have given Fletcher the Finger
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 10:43:25 AM
And let's not forget the Hoglund / fax machine incident.

I wouldn't have minded trading Hoglund for a fax machine.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Andy on January 21, 2015, 10:43:33 AM
Fletcher 2.0 was just awful. The Finger contract, giving up a 3rd for Jamal Myers, Steen + Cola for Stempniak, multiple picks to move up two spots in draft. But nothing compares to JFJ and his goalie trades. Man, a 1st, 2nd and 4th for Toskala, a backup with average stats on a stacked SJ team? Wow.

Remember the rumors were that Fletcher got the Finger signing incorrect!   The theory being that he was actually thinking of another player from Colorado to sign.

Those were fun times too...

I didn't hear that rumour but I'm not really surprised lol. I think some of the early confusion was whether it was 3.5 per or total. Because nobody had ever heard of this guy.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 10:47:49 AM
Take it with a grain of salt, considering the source:

Bruins would have taken Pogge instead of Rask from Maple Leafs for Raycroft

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2013/06/08/20884886.html
 (http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2013/06/08/20884886.html)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 21, 2015, 10:57:29 AM
This thread has taken a dark, sad, and depressing turn.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on January 21, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Is that what Boston wanted or what the Leafs offered?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 11:02:37 AM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Is that what Boston wanted or what the Leafs offered?

There was a lot of confusion with that one. The Leafs thought Boston offered Kessel and their 1st for Kaberle and Boston thought the deal was going to be Kaberle and the Leafs' 1st (which obviously became Kadri).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 11:03:22 AM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Is that what Boston wanted or what the Leafs offered?

Neither really.  Boston thought the deal would have been Kessel for Kaberle + Toronto's 1st (not necessarily Kadri, the pick wasn't made yet); Burke thought the deal was Kaberle for Kessel + Boston's 1st.  Confusion so it felt apart.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 11:04:00 AM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Is that what Boston wanted or what the Leafs offered?

Apparently the story goes that it was Kaberle for Kessel. Burke thought Boston was including a 1st and Chiarelli thought Toronto was including the 1st.

And both were ready to accept the deal as they thought it was laid out.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on January 21, 2015, 11:05:27 AM

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

That is correct. In terms of setting the team back for years, off the top of my head, the worst trades I've witnessed in my career as a leafs fan are:

1. a 1st round pick for Tom Kurvers
2. Rask for Raycroft
3. Steen and Colaiacovo for jackass

Even though he was up there in age. I still never got over Sittler for Rich Costello...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 21, 2015, 11:11:34 AM
Apparently the story goes that it was Kaberle for Kessel. Burke thought Boston was including a 1st and Chiarelli thought Toronto was including the 1st.

And both were ready to accept the deal as they thought it was laid out.

Love that story. How the heck did Burke think he was getting Kessel and a (late) 1st for Kaberle.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 11:16:44 AM
Apparently the story goes that it was Kaberle for Kessel. Burke thought Boston was including a 1st and Chiarelli thought Toronto was including the 1st.

And both were ready to accept the deal as they thought it was laid out.

Love that story. How the heck did Burke think he was getting Kessel and a (late) 1st for Kaberle.

I think it's more far-fetched looking now than at the time considering 2 years later Kaberle got the Leafs Colborne, a (late) 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick as basically a rental.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 11:26:01 AM
Love that story. How the heck did Burke think he was getting Kessel and a (late) 1st for Kaberle.

It was two full seasons of Kaberle at a very reasonable $4.25M per for a young, un-signed Kessel, who many thought saw his production boosted by playing with Marc Savard, and was seen as a pure sniper rather than the all-around quality offensive talent we see now. Throw in the supposed potential for a contentious negotiation and the fact the Kessel had just undergone shoulder surgery, and, well, there's your answer.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 11:44:19 AM
Love that story. How the heck did Burke think he was getting Kessel and a (late) 1st for Kaberle.

It was two full seasons of Kaberle at a very reasonable $4.25M per for a young, un-signed Kessel, who many thought saw his production boosted by playing with Marc Savard, and was seen as a pure sniper rather than the all-around quality offensive talent we see now. Throw in the supposed potential for a contentious negotiation and the fact the Kessel had just undergone shoulder surgery, and, well, there's your answer.

To add to that, Kaberle was also in the midst of a stretch of 4 out of 5 seasons where he was top 10 in points for D, and if he had played all of 2010-11 with Toronto he likely would have made it 5 of 6 at his Leafs' scoring pace.  He was a valuable player at that time.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on January 21, 2015, 11:55:31 AM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 11:58:01 AM
Love that story. How the heck did Burke think he was getting Kessel and a (late) 1st for Kaberle.

It was two full seasons of Kaberle at a very reasonable $4.25M per for a young, un-signed Kessel, who many thought saw his production boosted by playing with Marc Savard, and was seen as a pure sniper rather than the all-around quality offensive talent we see now. Throw in the supposed potential for a contentious negotiation and the fact the Kessel had just undergone shoulder surgery, and, well, there's your answer.

To add to that, Kaberle was also in the midst of a stretch of 4 out of 5 seasons where he was top 10 in points for D, and if he had played all of 2010-11 with Toronto he likely would have made it 5 of 6 at his Leafs' scoring pace.  He was a valuable player at that time.

Another postiive point for selling your assets at their highest level if you are not a legit contender.

Ahem...Cody Franson.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 21, 2015, 11:59:49 AM
Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.

Yeah, though, they're already 9 points out, so, even if they manage to keep pace with the teams ahead of them, that's still a big enough gap to put the team into sell mode. Really, though, the decision to sell or not should be made much earlier - possibly as early as this weekend (teams usually have front office meetings during the All Star break for that purpose). The groundwork for deadline day deal is often laid weeks before the trades go down, so, unless they Leafs have a significant winning streak out of the break, they're going to be in a position where they should be selling.

9 points from a playoff spot (10, really), and only 5 points from picking top 5.  I know what I'm hoping for, and what's a much more reasonable expectation for this team.

I'm guessing at this point Shanahan has seen enough and has a pretty firm idea of what needs to happen.  And a better performance leading up to the deadline won't change that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 21, 2015, 12:01:22 PM
It was a simple trade, but the Perrault for a 2nd trade bugged me.  It was a move that continued to signal a quick fix. 

Was just reminded it turned out to be Roman Josi.  :-X

Didn't Perrault have a bad shoulder at that point as well?  Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, but that trade didn't sit well with me either.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 12:02:37 PM
I'm guessing at this point Shanahan has seen enough and has a pretty firm idea of what needs to happen.  And a better performance leading up to the deadline won't change that.

I'm cautiously optimistic that he's looking at process over results at this point.  He's certainly surrounded himself with people who think that way, and firing Carlyle and talking about the shots for/against indicate he has a bigger picture in mind.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 12:02:46 PM
I'm guessing at this point Shanahan has seen enough and has a pretty firm idea of what needs to happen.  And a better performance leading up to the deadline won't change that.

I imagine so. A real significant win streak might lead to them not selling off pieces (and, by that, I mean 8+ games coming right out of the break), but that's about it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Lynx on January 21, 2015, 12:04:07 PM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Is that what Boston wanted or what the Leafs offered?

Apparently the story goes that it was Kaberle for Kessel. Burke thought Boston was including a 1st and Chiarelli thought Toronto was including the 1st.

And both were ready to accept the deal as they thought it was laid out.

I've always wondered if they could have kept negotiating and agreed to both include their first rounders (ie. Kessel and Boston's first for Kaberle and Toronto's first).

I'm pretty sure Ryan O'Reilly was taken a few picks after Boston's. Not that the Leafs would have taken him of course.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 21, 2015, 12:08:54 PM
This thread has taken a dark, sad, and depressing turn.

The facts surrounding the Leafs have a way of doing that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 12:10:59 PM
An underrated misstep was not making the Kessel deal that was on the table at the 2009 draft.

Kadri/Kaberle for Kessel. Imagine we got Kessel and still were able to keep the first round picks from the 2010 and 2011 drafts.

Is that what Boston wanted or what the Leafs offered?

Apparently the story goes that it was Kaberle for Kessel. Burke thought Boston was including a 1st and Chiarelli thought Toronto was including the 1st.

And both were ready to accept the deal as they thought it was laid out.

I've always wondered if they could have kept negotiating and agreed to both include their first rounders (ie. Kessel and Boston's first for Kaberle and Toronto's first).

I'm pretty sure Ryan O'Reilly was taken a few picks after Boston's. Not that the Leafs would have taken him of course.

They probably would have taken Phillippe Paradis.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 21, 2015, 12:11:13 PM
I'm guessing at this point Shanahan has seen enough and has a pretty firm idea of what needs to happen.  And a better performance leading up to the deadline won't change that.

I'm cautiously optimistic that he's looking at process over results at this point.  He's certainly surrounded himself with people who think that way, and firing Carlyle and talking about the shots for/against indicate he has a bigger picture in mind.

I hope so, but I don't trust Shanahan yet.  Siegel rightly called him out for re-signing Carlyle.  Even at the point it should have been obvious that he was the wrong guy to go forward with.  Just pissed money down the drain and wasted another season "assessing" the obvious.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mostar on January 21, 2015, 12:11:35 PM
The Leafs could have reversed their bad fortune had they traded MaCabe at his peak (for picks) instead of resigning him. He was pretty highly rated for the two seasons before his contract was renegotiated by JFJ.

The Leafs could have netted 2 or 3 prospects for him.

Of everything mentioned, that's the one that stung me the most. The timing would have been perfect.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Erat for Forsberg reminds me of the Rask for Raycroft deal.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 21, 2015, 12:16:44 PM
This thread has taken a dark, sad, and depressing turn.

The facts surrounding the Leafs have a way of doing that.

Funny, I've always looked at the 80s, and the Ballard years in general, and think things really aren't that bad right now.  But as this train wreck of a franchise continues to plumb the depths of futility, it's becoming a lot harder to convince myself that those years were so much worse than the current ones (just a different kind of bad).

The Leafs barely made the playoffs in 1980, finishing five games below .500. They would not post a winning record again until 1992–93, going a franchise-record 13 consecutive seasons without a winning record. The low point came in 1984–85, when the Leafs finished the season with the worst record in the league, 32 games below .500.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 12:21:07 PM
I don't think resigning Carlyle was a mistake, the Leafs hand out golden parachutes and I think it was part of a plan.  He was the guy who brought in Horachuck and Spott and ousted Randy's crew.  If he had dumped Randy before the season started and what is happening to Horachuck now happened at the beginning of the season then the pundents (including us) would have been calling for Horachecks head and then we would have changed 2 head coaches in matter of months. Randy bought some time for Shanaplan to see where the team was at and what they could do with Horachuck, knowing full well that Horachuck has a half season no matter how many games they lose.  At the end of the season an opportuntiy to change interem for full time again.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Lynx on January 21, 2015, 12:22:06 PM
The Leafs could have reversed their bad fortune had they traded MaCabe at his peak (for picks) instead of resigning him. He was pretty highly rated for the two seasons before his contract was renegotiated by JFJ.

The Leafs could have netted 2 or 3 prospects for him.

Of everything mentioned, that's the one that stung me the most. The timing would have been perfect.

Trading Tucker after his 30 goal year instead of resigning him to that big contract would have really helped too.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 12:23:47 PM
I bet every other team in the league has a litany of woe.  We are not alone in the hockey universe. Yes plenty of bad moves but lets pray we have the guys in place to turn this thing around.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 12:27:42 PM
I don't think resigning Carlyle was a mistake, the Leafs hand out golden parachutes and I think it was part of a plan.  He was the guy who brought in Horachuck and Spott and ousted Randy's crew.  If he had dumped Randy before the season started and what is happening to Horachuck now happened at the beginning of the season then the pundents (including us) would have been calling for Horachecks head and then we would have changed 2 head coaches in matter of months. Randy bought some time for Shanaplan to see where the team was at and what they could do with Horachuck, knowing full well that Horachuck has a half season no matter how many games they lose.  At the end of the season an opportuntiy to change interem for full time again.

Except that if Carlyle had been fired before the season began then Horachek almost certainly wouldn't have been the team's head coach. They could have been in on Trotz or Bylsma or any of the candidates out there who would have had a lot of leeway to begin the season and the team very likely wouldn't be where they are right now.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 12:33:03 PM
Agreed on that NtT, makes for the Babcock argument however. You want a season to assess, trade who you have to, sign who you have to, draft what makes sense.
I am not saying for sure the B is coming here but I do think this was always an assessment year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 12:37:44 PM
I'm guessing at this point Shanahan has seen enough and has a pretty firm idea of what needs to happen.  And a better performance leading up to the deadline won't change that.

I'm cautiously optimistic that he's looking at process over results at this point.  He's certainly surrounded himself with people who think that way, and firing Carlyle and talking about the shots for/against indicate he has a bigger picture in mind.

I hope so, but I don't trust Shanahan yet.  Siegel rightly called him out for re-signing Carlyle.  Even at the point it should have been obvious that he was the wrong guy to go forward with.  Just pissed money down the drain and wasted another season "assessing" the obvious.

Get ready for next year...another "assessment" year for the new Coach and/or GM.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 12:40:49 PM
You want a season to assess, trade who you have to, sign who you have to, draft what makes sense.

And all of those things could still have been done with a new coach but with the added benefit of not completely wasting a year of Kessel's prime. Babcock is an interesting option, sure, but if Shanahan was basing his long term strategy on the remote possibility that he'd be available and want to come to Toronto then that's a pretty terrible decision in and of itself.

Carlyle, realistically, didn't need to be assessed. Shanahan dropped the ball on that one, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 21, 2015, 12:44:34 PM
You want a season to assess, trade who you have to, sign who you have to, draft what makes sense.

And all of those things could still have been done with a new coach but with the added benefit of not completely wasting a year of Kessel's prime. Babcock is an interesting option, sure, but if Shanahan was basing his long term strategy on the remote possibility that he'd be available and want to come to Toronto then that's a pretty terrible decision in and of itself.

Carlyle, realistically, didn't need to be assessed. Shanahan dropped the ball on that one, plain and simple.

LMAO Nhick!  I  was giggling about the same thing earlier.   :P
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 12:49:18 PM
If you had to wait a year for Babcock wouldnt you. Shanaplan and him a very good friends, cottage kind of friends,  real buddys, if Horachuck had been made head coach I think it would have been a lot worse to fire two head coaches in what amounts to one season. To hire a Blysma or other top name was not what Shanaplan wanted to do. Yes I was not a Randy fan, but I am also not a fan of implementing a defensive system to an offensive juggernaut for what will amount to be half a season. Or maybe learning some defensive stuff will bear fruit for the new Coach.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 21, 2015, 12:54:22 PM
Shanaplan and him a very good friends, cottage kind of friends,  real buddys,

It's pretty impressive that they have a friendship like that despite reportedly not liking each other.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 12:58:42 PM
news to me! 

Perhaps Shanaplan thought Horachuck could assist Randy in implementing some defence onto the squad and that the ship would be more well balanced between the D and the O, or for the reasons already stated.  Perhaps Horachuck will right this ship as Hitchcock suggested and become the new full time coach.  All a frikken mystery to me.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 01:02:40 PM
This thread has taken a dark, sad, and depressing turn.

The facts surrounding the Leafs have a way of doing that.

Funny, I've always looked at the 80s, and the Ballard years in general, and think things really aren't that bad right now.  But as this train wreck of a franchise continues to plumb the depths of futility, it's becoming a lot harder to convince myself that those years were so much worse than the current ones (just a different kind of bad).

The Leafs barely made the playoffs in 1980, finishing five games below .500. They would not post a winning record again until 1992–93, going a franchise-record 13 consecutive seasons without a winning record. The low point came in 1984–85, when the Leafs finished the season with the worst record in the league, 32 games below .500.

Not that I was old enough, but I'm pretty sure it was wayyyy easier to make the playoffs then.

For instance, in 85-86 Leafs finished 25-48-7 and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 01:08:25 PM
If you had to wait a year for Babcock wouldnt you.

Even if I thought that Shanahan was 100% sure that Babcock was coming after a season, and I absolutely don't, then the smart move still would have been to fire Carlyle and replace him for a year with someone who at the very least would lay a groundwork for the changes that the team wanted to see. If they were hellbent on throwing the season away in the name of assessment then screwing around for 40 games with Carlyle's nonsense was a complete and total waste.

Right now we all still have questions about Kadri and Gardiner and Bernier and how they're going to look in a new system. If Spott or someone were running the team since the summer we'd be a lot further down the road in answering those questions.

Shanahan bungled it, you can admit that without thinking the world is on fire.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 21, 2015, 01:09:45 PM
Point taken.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 01:22:25 PM
The President of the Toronto Maple Leafs is named Brendan Shanahan.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 21, 2015, 01:29:05 PM
Part of me wants them to lose so we get a higher pick in a very deep draft.

Part of me wants them to win and get through this tailspin because I cannot fathom another rebuild for 5 or so years.

Part of me is wondering what the hell the past five years were if not a rebuild?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 21, 2015, 01:30:19 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

Really what has Grabovski done! Nothing! He has 14 pts so for this season compared to Bozaks 32 pts. Both players played the exact same amount of games last season and Bozak had 14 more pts. Bozak 4.2 mil, Grabovski 5.0 mil. Numbers say Bozak is better and cheaper.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on January 21, 2015, 01:36:00 PM
Yeah but Grabovski has one advantage that Bozak can never have: he's not Bozak.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 21, 2015, 01:37:37 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

I don't think buying him out was an mistake, using the resulting cap space to sign Clarkson was a huge mistake though.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 01:38:13 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

Really what has Grabovski done! Nothing! He has 14 pts so for this season compared to Bozaks 32 pts. Both players played the exact same amount of games last season and Bozak had 14 more pts. Bozak 4.2 mil, Grabovski 5.0 mil. Numbers say Bozak is better and cheaper.

Looking at numbers in that way and only that way would mean Bozak is as good as or better than Jeff Carter, Patrice Bergeron, Alex Galchenyuk, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Eric Staal, Matt Duchene, Nathan MacKinnon, to name a few.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 21, 2015, 01:38:34 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

I don't think buying him out was an mistake, using the resulting cap space to sign Clarkson was a huge mistake though.

I will agree on that point. No one could of known that Clarkson was going to be as bad!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on January 21, 2015, 01:41:01 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

I don't think buying him out was an mistake, using the resulting cap space to sign Clarkson was a huge mistake though.

I will agree on that point. No one could of known that Clarkson was going to be as bad!

I think everyone but Nonis knew, actually.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 21, 2015, 01:41:55 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

Really what has Grabovski done! Nothing! He has 14 pts so for this season compared to Bozaks 32 pts. Both players played the exact same amount of games last season and Bozak had 14 more pts. Bozak 4.2 mil, Grabovski 5.0 mil. Numbers say Bozak is better and cheaper.

Looking at numbers in that way and only that way would mean Bozak is as good as or better than Jeff Carter, Patrice Bergeron, Alex Galchenyuk, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Eric Staal, Matt Duchene, Nathan MacKinnon, to name a few.

I never stated that he was better then the players that you listed. I only stated that he was and is better then Grabovski. Patrice Bergeron is the best center in the league IMO.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 21, 2015, 01:44:05 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

I don't think buying him out was an mistake, using the resulting cap space to sign Clarkson was a huge mistake though.

I will agree on that point. No one could of known that Clarkson was going to be as bad!

I think everyone but Nonis knew, actually.

Really. Then why was he most sot after free agent of that year then?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 21, 2015, 01:46:00 PM
This thread has taken a dark, sad, and depressing turn.

The facts surrounding the Leafs have a way of doing that.

Funny, I've always looked at the 80s, and the Ballard years in general, and think things really aren't that bad right now.  But as this train wreck of a franchise continues to plumb the depths of futility, it's becoming a lot harder to convince myself that those years were so much worse than the current ones (just a different kind of bad).

The Leafs barely made the playoffs in 1980, finishing five games below .500. They would not post a winning record again until 1992–93, going a franchise-record 13 consecutive seasons without a winning record. The low point came in 1984–85, when the Leafs finished the season with the worst record in the league, 32 games below .500.

Not that I was old enough, but I'm pretty sure it was wayyyy easier to make the playoffs then.

For instance, in 85-86 Leafs finished 25-48-7 and made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

It was, but I'm not even talking playoffs, just about the way the Leafs make you want to scream and cry and pull your hair out.  There have been so many more bad years than good, for decades, that it just feels like this franchise is doomed, and its fans along with it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 01:49:46 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

Really what has Grabovski done! Nothing! He has 14 pts so for this season compared to Bozaks 32 pts. Both players played the exact same amount of games last season and Bozak had 14 more pts. Bozak 4.2 mil, Grabovski 5.0 mil. Numbers say Bozak is better and cheaper.

Looking at numbers in that way and only that way would mean Bozak is as good as or better than Jeff Carter, Patrice Bergeron, Alex Galchenyuk, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Eric Staal, Matt Duchene, Nathan MacKinnon, to name a few.

I never stated that he was better then the players that you listed. I only stated that he was and is better then Grabovski. Patrice Bergeron is the best center in the league IMO.

I never stated you stated he was better than the players I listed.  If "the numbers say Bozak is better" and the only numbers you are using are total points to come to this conclusion, then I did the exact same thing to get an even bigger list of players who right now "the numbers" say Bozak is better than.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 01:50:37 PM
Patrice Bergeron is the best center in the league IMO.

I don't think Patrice Bergeron's mother thinks he's the best center in the league.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on January 21, 2015, 02:03:00 PM
Yeah but Grabovski has one advantage that Bozak can never have: he's not Bozak.
I think this nails it for me.  Concussions have hurt Grabbo this season but he's been out there for 38 games (probably still injured for some of them).  And despite the poor point production, still manages to keep his +/- respectable and dishes out a few hits and generates a bit of energy for the rest of his team.  for the same 5 million you get a pretend (Stajanesque) first line center who gets his points parasitically through his linemates and is a -12 as the defensive conscience on his line.  This team might have been better with Kadri-Gabbo up the middle than where we are now.  Paying to get rid of him was ridiculous(by paying I mean buying him out and not using the buyout on gleason-liles)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 02:06:26 PM
Really what has Grabovski done! Nothing! He has 14 pts so for this season compared to Bozaks 32 pts. Both players played the exact same amount of games last season and Bozak had 14 more pts. Bozak 4.2 mil, Grabovski 5.0 mil. Numbers say Bozak is better and cheaper.

Swap their situations and I guarantee you that Grabovski has more points that Bozak would for the Islanders - and would probably put up more point than Bozak has for Leafs, considering very little of Bozak's production has come from Bozak's playmaking ability. On top of that, Grabovski would provide a much stronger defensive presence and a much more tenacious forecheck, because he's a much more well-rounded player than Bozak ever has been.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 02:09:24 PM
Part of me is wondering what the hell the past five years were if not a rebuild?

What part of the least 5 years really resembled a rebuild (other than finishing near the bottom of the standings in most of those seasons)? The trading away of picks and prospects? The poor use of young players? The lack of players drafted by the Leafs in the lineup? Letting players who could have been useful trade pieces walk away? Outside of being a bad team on the ice, this team has had none of the tell-tale signs of a rebuild.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 02:12:43 PM
Really. Then why was he most sot after free agent of that year then?

We can't say definitively that he was the more sought after UFA that summer. What we know is that the Leafs and the Oilers went hard after him and that it was a weak free agent class. We don't really know how serious any other teams were. And, really, with the track record of the management groups of the two teams involved . . .
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 21, 2015, 02:13:33 PM
Really what has Grabovski done! Nothing! He has 14 pts so for this season compared to Bozaks 32 pts. Both players played the exact same amount of games last season and Bozak had 14 more pts. Bozak 4.2 mil, Grabovski 5.0 mil. Numbers say Bozak is better and cheaper.

Swap their situations and I guarantee you that Grabovski has more points that Bozak would for the Islanders - and would probably put up more point than Bozak has for Leafs, considering very little of Bozak's production has come from Bozak's playmaking ability. On top of that, Grabovski would provide a much stronger defensive presence and a much more tenacious forecheck, because he's a much more well-rounded player than Bozak ever has been.

Currently, the injury history would worry me, but that's only with the benefit of hindsight (not that Bozak's been healthy either, he hasn't played a full 82-game season since 2010-11).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 02:17:46 PM

Freshness of debate on Bozak aside, there's really nothing Grabo's done since he left that should have anyone thinking that being locked into him long term right now is something the Leafs really missed the boat on.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 21, 2015, 02:32:11 PM
Freshness of debate on Bozak aside, there's really nothing Grabo's done since he left that should have anyone thinking that being locked into him long term right now is something the Leafs really missed the boat on.

He was having a pretty good year in Washington before injuries derailed him. He's struggled with the Islanders, but, I think part of that is due to usage, as well as injuries. He just hasn't been a good fit for them. They've also used him as a winger more than a centre.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on January 21, 2015, 02:33:54 PM

Freshness of debate on Bozak aside, there's really nothing Grabo's done since he left that should have anyone thinking that being locked into him long term right now is something the Leafs really missed the boat on.
Other than the fact that we could have walked away from Bozak without having to buy him out and stuck with Grabbo.  I don't think in the scheme of things on the ice, we wouldn't still be in the same position we are now, but Grabbo i think would only have one year left on his contract and perhaps 1 less concussion (who knows on that front).  And we would have the Gleason cap space back.  Grabbo wasn't worthless, but IMO Bozak without Kessel probably is...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 02:37:43 PM
He was having a pretty good year in Washington before injuries derailed him. He's struggled with the Islanders, but, I think part of that is due to usage, as well as injuries. He just hasn't been a good fit for them. They've also used him as a winger more than a centre.

He's also a smallish player on the wrong side of 30 so the fact that he's struggled with injuries isn't exactly out of the blue. Personally, I don't think the Leafs are really missing out here outside of the false "Bozak or Grabo" narrative.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 21, 2015, 02:41:08 PM
Other than the fact that we could have walked away from Bozak without having to buy him out and stuck with Grabbo.  I don't think in the scheme of things on the ice, we wouldn't still be in the same position we are now, but Grabbo i think would only have one year left on his contract and perhaps 1 less concussion (who knows on that front).  And we would have the Gleason cap space back.  Grabbo wasn't worthless, but IMO Bozak without Kessel probably is...

Next year is the only year of the Gleason buy-out where the Gleason Money added to Bozak's salary is more than what Grabo would have made so the idea that you'd save anything by choosing Grabo doesn't really add up.

Regardless, I didn't say anything about Bozak. They could have, and probably should have, kept neither player. That doesn't make Grabo's deal look good all of a sudden.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on January 21, 2015, 04:26:42 PM
Buying out Grabovski was ffffoooooking nuts!  Both at the time and now!  The one thing you could not say about him was that he lacked "compete level" or "accountability"  I still can't believe we picked Bozak over him, essentially because Kessel was his roommate (In my mind).

I don't think buying him out was an mistake, using the resulting cap space to sign Clarkson was a huge mistake though.

I will agree on that point. No one could of known that Clarkson was going to be as bad!

I don't know about that - even before he was signed there was alot of posts here saying that signing him would be a huge mistake. That his numbers were an aberration, and that after scoring something like 14 goals in the first 30 games he went on to score 5 more the rest of the season...

I can't remember anyone saying it was a good idea to sign Clarkson.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 05:21:22 PM
My opinion is that neither Bozak nor Grabbo (let alone both) should be a part of a contending teams top 2 lines.

They are both behind Kadri in my mind.  I'm still waiting for that second top 2 centre to arrive. Nylander???
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 21, 2015, 05:25:30 PM
Fletcher 2.0 was just awful. The Finger contract, giving up a 3rd for Jamal Myers, Steen + Cola for Stempniak, multiple picks to move up two spots in draft. But nothing compares to JFJ and his goalie trades. Man, a 1st, 2nd and 4th for Toskala, a backup with average stats on a stacked SJ team? Wow.

Remember the rumors were that Fletcher got the Finger signing incorrect!   The theory being that he was actually thinking of another player from Colorado to sign.

Those were fun times too...

I didn't hear that rumour but I'm not really surprised lol. I think some of the early confusion was whether it was 3.5 per or total. Because nobody had ever heard of this guy.

Drown your tears in this.  Not that Sauer turned into anything of significance (Mainly due to concussion issues...so there's that).  But who is to say what would have happened had we signed the right "finger".

Did the Leafs Confuse Sauer with Finger or am I Missing Something Here?
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=16043 (http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=16043)

Edit:  I apologize for the link to THAT website...it was the only one that i could search for quickly that explained the issues with the Finger signing.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: hockeyfan1 on January 21, 2015, 05:50:00 PM
Bring him back!  Our #1 draft pick!  ;D


(http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad239/fotogalri/48da0043-7ea4-43a3-b0c9-2a644392524d_zps7a82c9ef.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Kessel Run on January 21, 2015, 08:43:55 PM
Groot?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: AvroArrow on January 21, 2015, 10:02:55 PM
Part of me is wondering what the hell the past five years were if not a rebuild?

A complete and utter failure?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 22, 2015, 09:22:24 AM
mirtle: Leafs started the 1990-91 season with a 4-21-1 record. This is their worst sustained stretch of hockey since then, record wise.

I honestly didn't believe we'd see such a spectacular collapse from this team. I really thought it was going to be more of a gradual thing didn't really bottom out until mid/late February. I felt this road heavy stretch could be a killer, but, I'm honestly surprised it's been this definitive.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 22, 2015, 09:43:04 AM
mirtle: Leafs started the 1990-91 season with a 4-21-1 record. This is their worst sustained stretch of hockey since then, record wise.

I honestly didn't believe we'd see such a spectacular collapse from this team. I really thought it was going to be more of a gradual thing didn't really bottom out until mid/late February. I felt this road heavy stretch could be a killer, but, I'm honestly surprised it's been this definitive.

I never expected the offense to struggle so badly, especially when you watched the games and they were still getting chances.  Not like they were having 13 shots a game and getting no zone time or something.

EDIT:  What's actually amazing about this - not a single OT/SO loss.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 22, 2015, 10:32:19 AM
mirtle: Leafs started the 1990-91 season with a 4-21-1 record. This is their worst sustained stretch of hockey since then, record wise.

I honestly didn't believe we'd see such a spectacular collapse from this team. I really thought it was going to be more of a gradual thing didn't really bottom out until mid/late February. I felt this road heavy stretch could be a killer, but, I'm honestly surprised it's been this definitive.

I never expected the offense to struggle so badly, especially when you watched the games and they were still getting chances.  Not like they were having 13 shots a game and getting no zone time or something.

EDIT:  What's actually amazing about this - not a single OT/SO loss.

You guys are acting as if you are surprised at the fact that this team is garbage.

Its the FOURTH year in a row with this team.  At some point, you have to admit that this team is what it is and that significant additions/deletions are needed.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mostar on January 22, 2015, 12:07:19 PM
Last years collapse coincided with a western road trip too. They picked up wins in the first 2 games and slip from there.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 22, 2015, 12:29:09 PM
Solution: no more road trips west of the Mississippi.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: harps64 on January 22, 2015, 12:45:17 PM
I'm blaming the deflated puck analogy
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 22, 2015, 06:46:49 PM
I'm blaming the deflated puck analogy

I don't know, deflated balls might work for this group too.

I can't believe this thread doesn't have 50 pages already.  You guys are slackers. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 22, 2015, 06:48:49 PM
I can't believe this thread doesn't have 50 pages already.  You guys are slackers.

We're not HFBoards. We actually try to limit the useless posts. :P
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 22, 2015, 08:11:37 PM
Ok delated pucks, deflated balls, and no trips west of Nashville. Got it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 23, 2015, 03:56:17 PM
I guess everyone's joined Dion on the beach at Cancun.  Well, TANK NATION NEVER SLEEPS.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 23, 2015, 04:33:56 PM
I guess everyone's joined Dion on the beach at Cancun.  Well, TANK NATION NEVER SLEEPS.

If you're looking to kill time prior to the draft, try out the draft simulator.  The Leafs won the top pick on my second try!  http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 23, 2015, 04:40:11 PM
I guess everyone's joined Dion on the beach at Cancun.  Well, TANK NATION NEVER SLEEPS.

If you're looking to kill time prior to the draft, try out the draft simulator.  The Leafs won the top pick on my second try!  http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Let's call it good and just skip the real thing.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 23, 2015, 05:05:32 PM
McDavid is very special player, wonder what would happen if Toronto did win the draft lottery? How would city react?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on January 23, 2015, 05:29:07 PM
McDavid is very special player, wonder what would happen if Toronto did win the draft lottery? How would city react?

They'd trade him for Ben Scrivens
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 24, 2015, 12:42:17 AM
McDavid is very special player, wonder what would happen if Toronto did win the draft lottery? How would city react?

It would be the best thing that happened to the Leafs since they won the cup, or maybe ever. It has the potential to turn the team around in short order.

I have to think Shanahan and the front office see this.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 24, 2015, 09:51:39 AM
If the Leafs somehow managed to get McDavid, he'd probably turn out to be a dissapointment. A half century of failure would be hoisted upon his shoulders and who can really live up to all the hype and expectation that would be placed on him if he came to Toronto?

Of course, I hope they get him and I'm proven wrong, but man...that would be an awful lot of pressure for a kid who just wants to play hockey.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 24, 2015, 11:54:19 AM
If the Leafs somehow managed to get McDavid, he'd probably turn out to be a dissapointment. A half century of failure would be hoisted upon his shoulders and who can really live up to all the hype and expectation that would be placed on him if he came to Toronto?

Of course, I hope they get him and I'm proven wrong, but man...that would be an awful lot of pressure for a kid who just wants to play hockey.

Would Crosby have failed here, Stamoks? Tavares?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on January 24, 2015, 12:09:20 PM
McDavid is very special player, wonder what would happen if Toronto did win the draft lottery? How would city react?

They'd trade him for Ben Scrivens

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/mccabebabe/monitorspew.jpg)


you just made my day Arn! LOL!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rebel_1812 on January 24, 2015, 12:27:58 PM
if you want them to trade most of the players are you a member of the tank nation?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 24, 2015, 01:27:49 PM
If the Leafs somehow managed to get McDavid, he'd probably turn out to be a dissapointment. A half century of failure would be hoisted upon his shoulders and who can really live up to all the hype and expectation that would be placed on him if he came to Toronto?

Of course, I hope they get him and I'm proven wrong, but man...that would be an awful lot of pressure for a kid who just wants to play hockey.

Would Crosby have failed here, Stamoks? Tavares?

I never said 'fail'. They could have easily dissapointed here. I really think the expectations would be much higher for a 'generational talent' in this hockey market, starved for a championship.

I don't think either of these guys would have made much of a difference on this current slide. Having said that, a large share of the blame would probably have been placed on them for not helping enough.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: lamajama on January 24, 2015, 01:36:49 PM
I agree. They would no doubt have been the best player by far but one player just cannot make a winner - even Gretzky or Mario.

The Leafs problem is they have done such a poor (or is it comical) job of drafting beyond the 1st round that a superstar has very little supporting pieces.

The Leafs need to draft players that end up being a "I can't believe the Leafs got him in the 3rd, 4th, 5th round
type of superstar".

Hello virtually every other team in the NHL.

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 24, 2015, 01:54:08 PM

The Leafs need to draft players that end up being a "I can't believe the Leafs got him in the 3rd, 4th, 5th round
type of superstar".


this.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: skrackle on January 24, 2015, 02:37:47 PM
Having expectations on a possible generational franchise player would be a nice problem for the Leafs to have. Finding gems in the later rounds would be great too.

The Leafs have been trading too many 2nd round and later picks for quick fixes to the badly flawed core that makes up the current Maple Leafs.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on January 24, 2015, 03:02:02 PM
if you want them to trade most of the players are you a member of the tank nation?
To an extent, yes. Do you want them to trade for picks? If so, you are a part of the tank nation. Welcome, brother. [emoji1]
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 24, 2015, 04:36:33 PM
If the Leafs somehow managed to get McDavid, he'd probably turn out to be a dissapointment. A half century of failure would be hoisted upon his shoulders and who can really live up to all the hype and expectation that would be placed on him if he came to Toronto?

Of course, I hope they get him and I'm proven wrong, but man...that would be an awful lot of pressure for a kid who just wants to play hockey.

Would Crosby have failed here, Stamoks? Tavares?

I never said 'fail'. They could have easily dissapointed here. I really think the expectations would be much higher for a 'generational talent' in this hockey market, starved for a championship.

I don't think either of these guys would have made much of a difference on this current slide. Having said that, a large share of the blame would probably have been placed on them for not helping enough.

Ok,
If the Leafs somehow managed to get McDavid, he'd probably turn out to be a dissapointment. A half century of failure would be hoisted upon his shoulders and who can really live up to all the hype and expectation that would be placed on him if he came to Toronto?

Of course, I hope they get him and I'm proven wrong, but man...that would be an awful lot of pressure for a kid who just wants to play hockey.

Would Crosby have failed here, Stamoks? Tavares?

I never said 'fail'. They could have easily dissapointed here. I really think the expectations would be much higher for a 'generational talent' in this hockey market, starved for a championship.

I don't think either of these guys would have made much of a difference on this current slide. Having said that, a large share of the blame would probably have been placed on them for not helping enough.

Ok, might as well not bother drafting any promising players then.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on January 24, 2015, 08:08:29 PM
Would it be wrong to say I'm just sick of the existing team's faces and don't care if they tank or not?  Just that they get rid of over-paid, under-performing players?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 24, 2015, 08:48:29 PM
If the Leafs somehow managed to get McDavid, he'd probably turn out to be a dissapointment. A half century of failure would be hoisted upon his shoulders and who can really live up to all the hype and expectation that would be placed on him if he came to Toronto?

Of course, I hope they get him and I'm proven wrong, but man...that would be an awful lot of pressure for a kid who just wants to play hockey.

Maybe, but I think he'd be fine.  He is currently rated as the best un-drafted young player in the world.  He's competed under some pretty bright lights too while everyone has fawned over him as the next great one.  And so far he's been living up to the hype, and the pressure hasn't really seemed to bother him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: skrackle on January 24, 2015, 08:54:25 PM
Would it be wrong to say I'm just sick of the existing team's faces and don't care if they tank or not?  Just that they get rid of over-paid, under-performing players?

No, it wouldn't be wrong, because patience has it's limits.

I hope they do get rid of the over-paid, under-performing players, and also tank. If it's not painfully obvious to the entire Leafs organization that a complete rebuild is necessary, if not long overdue, then I don't know what to think.

I don't blame the players in this, though. I know they all want to win. Who I do blame is management and ownership and this is going back beyond a decade.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: MetalRaven on January 25, 2015, 05:57:56 AM
What I would like to see the Leafs do has more to do with the trade deadline and less to do with losing games on purpose. Over then next 5 years I would like to see the Leafs become major sellers at the trade deadline, selling anything that isn't a core contract, that is expiring, for picks/prospects. This upcoming draft is apparently deep, with some very good talent in it. Players with short contracts that are still question marks should be traded for as many picks as we can get. The Leafs have found gold in the past in the latter rounds of the draft recently (2006 - ) So I would definitely like to see them have more chances (Draft being kinda hit/miss) Im really looking to smile big smiles this year at trade deadline or Nonis should be gone.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on January 26, 2015, 06:01:36 PM
I don't share the view that tanking is the answer and history doesn't show any guarantees. While some teams with top picks, Chicago, Pittsburgh have won Stanley Cups with because of high picks, others teams that have accumulated them -- Edmonton, Washington, Ottawa previously -- haven't been able to parlay them in Stanley Cups.
Other teams, such as, LA, St.Louis, Anaheim, have had maybe one top five pick and a host of late first and even later picks that form their core.
On Anaheim, Getzlaf was 19th, Perry 28th, Kesler, 23rd, Fowler, 12th.
St.Louis, apart from Pietangelo at 4th, Tarasenko 16th, Oshie and Steen both 16th, Stastny 44, and Backus 62.
The Bruins, Habs, Red Wings and other top teams rosters, show a similar story.
The Leafs actually have three top 5 picks in their line-up in JVR, 2nd, Kessel and Rielly both 5th.

I personally don't think the Leafs have to blow it up entirely. I think they can retool by unloading Phaneuf and finding another solid d-man or two, like the Islander did with Boychuk and Leddy.

Land a new centre - like a Ryan O'Reilly. We need a upgrade down the middle. O'Rielly, Kadri, Bozak, fourth line big grinder centre would make more sense.

I would not trade Kessel unless it was an equal value offer, player for player. They Leafs need a head honcho forward that can take the spotlight away from Kessel, and he can just do his 35-40 goal thing. I actually remember during the strike shortened season and early last year, he was doing some back checking the media guys were starting to praise him for trying to play more of a two-way game. They have short term memories. Anyway, I just think he's gotten a bit fed up. Still, that is not an excuse. But I mean, when he sees the way Dion is playing some night - guys just walking around him - I am sure it doesn't just drive the fans crazy.

I would trade Reimer to eliminate that whole issue, and find veteran back-up who doesn't mind the role. Or audition the three Marlie goalies, Gibson, Sparks or Bibeau (may not want to rush the kid) to see if one of them can fill the role. 

Anyway, blowing the whole thing up in desperation, will likely result in another decade of futility at least.

They simply need to draft better, trade better, develop their kids better and not blow their brains out on overpaid contracts.



Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 26, 2015, 06:09:49 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  46 minutes ago
Leafs D pairings at practice:

Holzer-Franson
Rielly-Polak
Gardiner-Granberg

The TANK is on!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 26, 2015, 06:48:53 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  46 minutes ago
Leafs D pairings at practice:

Holzer-Franson
Rielly-Polak
Gardiner-Granberg

The TANK is on!

Phaneuf injured?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 26, 2015, 06:59:41 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  46 minutes ago
Leafs D pairings at practice:

Holzer-Franson
Rielly-Polak
Gardiner-Granberg

The TANK is on!

Phaneuf injured?

Week to week, they say.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 26, 2015, 09:28:27 PM
Tank tank tank
Tankity tank
Blank blank blank
Blankety blank
Rank clank skank prank
Tank tank tank me now
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on January 26, 2015, 09:53:14 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  46 minutes ago
Leafs D pairings at practice:

Holzer-Franson
Rielly-Polak
Gardiner-Granberg

The TANK is on!

I hope Granberg makes a good impression!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on January 26, 2015, 09:56:07 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  46 minutes ago
Leafs D pairings at practice:

Holzer-Franson
Rielly-Polak
Gardiner-Granberg

The TANK is on!

We're slowly creating an army.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Stronger Than All on January 26, 2015, 11:29:28 PM
Just got back from Jamaica, where I decided to unplug from my devices while I was there.  I see the Leafs haven't won a game since I left, I'm shocked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The tank is on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 27, 2015, 07:44:32 AM
I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on January 27, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
I don't share the view that tanking is the answer and history doesn't show any guarantees. While some teams with top picks, Chicago, Pittsburgh have won Stanley Cups with because of high picks, others teams that have accumulated them -- Edmonton, Washington, Ottawa previously -- haven't been able to parlay them in Stanley Cups.
Other teams, such as, LA, St.Louis, Anaheim, have had maybe one top five pick and a host of late first and even later picks that form their core.
On Anaheim, Getzlaf was 19th, Perry 28th, Kesler, 23rd, Fowler, 12th.
St.Louis, apart from Pietangelo at 4th, Tarasenko 16th, Oshie and Steen both 16th, Stastny 44, and Backus 62.
The Bruins, Habs, Red Wings and other top teams rosters, show a similar story.
The Leafs actually have three top 5 picks in their line-up in JVR, 2nd, Kessel and Rielly both 5th.

I personally don't think the Leafs have to blow it up entirely. I think they can retool by unloading Phaneuf and finding another solid d-man or two, like the Islander did with Boychuk and Leddy.

Land a new centre - like a Ryan O'Reilly. We need a upgrade down the middle. O'Rielly, Kadri, Bozak, fourth line big grinder centre would make more sense.

I would not trade Kessel unless it was an equal value offer, player for player. They Leafs need a head honcho forward that can take the spotlight away from Kessel, and he can just do his 35-40 goal thing. I actually remember during the strike shortened season and early last year, he was doing some back checking the media guys were starting to praise him for trying to play more of a two-way game. They have short term memories. Anyway, I just think he's gotten a bit fed up. Still, that is not an excuse. But I mean, when he sees the way Dion is playing some night - guys just walking around him - I am sure it doesn't just drive the fans crazy.

I would trade Reimer to eliminate that whole issue, and find veteran back-up who doesn't mind the role. Or audition the three Marlie goalies, Gibson, Sparks or Bibeau (may not want to rush the kid) to see if one of them can fill the role. 

Anyway, blowing the whole thing up in desperation, will likely result in another decade of futility at least.

They simply need to draft better, trade better, develop their kids better and not blow their brains out on overpaid contracts.

Good analysis. My sense of the situation is that management feels similarly.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on January 27, 2015, 09:09:46 AM
I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 27, 2015, 10:34:12 AM
I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

They will... at the beginning of next season.  Right before they crush everyone's hopes like so many aluminum cans.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 27, 2015, 10:37:45 AM
I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 27, 2015, 10:47:50 AM
I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

I agree, but, with the team already reportedly looking into moving him, a strong stretch without him could embolden them in that pursuit. That being said, if Phaneuf is moved, it won't be directly related to how they play without him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 27, 2015, 10:52:21 AM
I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

I agree, but, with the team already reportedly looking into moving him, a strong stretch without him could embolden them in that pursuit. That being said, if Phaneuf is moved, it won't be directly related to how they play without him.

That's what I'm saying.  Either they already wanted to move him or they didn't already want to move him, but playing well without him won't make them consider it where they didn't already.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 27, 2015, 11:20:36 AM
I don't share the view that tanking is the answer and history doesn't show any guarantees. While some teams with top picks, Chicago, Pittsburgh have won Stanley Cups with because of high picks, others teams that have accumulated them -- Edmonton, Washington, Ottawa previously -- haven't been able to parlay them in Stanley Cups.

That's like saying that going to college doesn't matter because you can go to college, get your degree and still end up unemployed. Nobody has ever said that tanking guarantees anything or that it will achieve good results independent of having a good management team in place making good decisions. Just that it's the best and most direct way to accumulate the sort of talent you need to build a winner. Your plan for the Leafs boils down to basically that they don't need to rebuild because they can just "find" a #1 centre and top defensemen like those are things that other teams are eager to give away.

"Just do things better" isn't actually a strategy.

Other teams, such as, LA, St.Louis, Anaheim, have had maybe one top five pick and a host of late first and even later picks that form their core.
On Anaheim, Getzlaf was 19th, Perry 28th, Kesler, 23rd, Fowler, 12th.
St.Louis, apart from Pietangelo at 4th, Tarasenko 16th, Oshie and Steen both 16th, Stastny 44, and Backus 62.

Of the ten players you name here, four were drafted in 2003 which is hands down the best draft year in the history of the NHL. Using picks from those years as "evidence" that Franchise players can be found up and down the draft is essentially advocating for the Leafs to sit around and hope that lightning strikes.

Players picked in the top 5 of a draft are not the equal of each other simply by virtue of draft position. Rielly was taken 5th in what looks to be an incredibly weak draft year. The Kings have Drew Doughty, taken second in an incredibly strong draft year. Are they a wash? Is the Leafs hoping to build around JVR a wash with the Islanders building around Tavares because they were both top 5 picks?

For years people said that the Leafs should build their team the way that the Red Wings did in the 90's but  Communism was never going to fall a second time. At some point you actually have to try to deal with how talent is actually distributed in a repeatable way.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on January 27, 2015, 11:47:02 AM
I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.

Yeah maybe I didn't word that correctly. Nonis and co. have already, reportedly, had discussions about moving him, so it's not as if the team playing well without him will be the deciding factor of him getting moved. I do think, however, that if there's any doubts about his value to the team (especially in a cap era) and the team looks strong enough without him, that could make a decision easier for the management.

Phaneuf is a far, far cry from Sundin in terms of value. Any team knows it'll be better with a hall of famer so I'm not sure that really applies.

Phaneuf is a #2-#3 D-man being paid #1 money. Maybe they've already decided he doesn't fit the long term structure and are awaiting his return from injury to make a deal. Maybe not. This injury gives them a glimpse of what the team looks like without Phaneuf. I think that is an opportunity to gauge his value to the team (they're not great with him in the lineup as it is, and yes I know it's not all his fault).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2015, 10:24:15 PM
3-14-1.

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/34/34bde2c7eac4b12fec8ebfad5b806f0f5c12f2f7493fd40ca2e01f5d6c84901e.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 28, 2015, 10:43:16 PM
The slide continues..albeit with one point tonight. Top five pick here we come!

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on January 28, 2015, 10:49:13 PM
What's the consensus around here on Nonis keeping his job after the season ends?

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 28, 2015, 10:50:21 PM
What's the consensus around here on Nonis keeping his job after the season ends?

The consensus is why wait.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 28, 2015, 10:50:55 PM
What's the consensus around here on Nonis keeping his job after the season ends?

Unlikely. I don't think he's really doing his job now. He's doing what Shanny and Co. are telling him to now.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on January 28, 2015, 11:01:28 PM
The task(s) Shanahan is going to be charged with if the Leafs decide to ok a complete teardown / blowup / rebuild are almost impossible. But if it's done at least 60% properly this time in about 5-7 years you guys are going to be much more fun to talk hockey / chirp with.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on January 28, 2015, 11:10:16 PM
I think a full rebuild would pretty much take Babcock's name out of any coaching equation in Toronto so there's my next question: who is the best gaffer for a 100% no doubt about it rebuild? Eakins maybe?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 28, 2015, 11:23:04 PM
I think a full rebuild would pretty much take Babcock's name out of any coaching equation in Toronto...

Never underestimate the willingness of someone to take on a lousy job if they're offered way more money than they're worth. See Ryan, Bobby.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 28, 2015, 11:44:15 PM
The task(s) Shanahan is going to be charged with if the Leafs decide to ok a complete teardown / blowup / rebuild are almost impossible. But if it's done at least 60% properly this time in about 5-7 years you guys are going to be much more fun to talk hockey / chirp with.

Yeah, I have to admit this place isn't nearly as fun these past few years as it once was.  Everyone's in a bad mood all the time because any one of us could have done at least as good a job running the team as the bozos who actually get paid to.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: wnc096 on January 29, 2015, 02:59:58 AM


Yeah, I have to admit this place isn't nearly as fun these past few years as it once was.  Everyone's in a bad mood all the time because any one of us could have done at least as good a job running the team as the bozos who actually get paid to.

No kidding hey?  Even when they were rolling last month...you could tell everyone was not buying it...no crazy blue and white koolaid like years past.   I remember after every win in previous years, everyone would talk about how the team was on the verge of contending.  This year even after they won like 6 in a row everone was waiting for the other shoe To drop.....and it inevetibly did.   The fanbase it completely jaded (with good reason)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 29, 2015, 09:25:27 AM
Watching some highlights, and maybe LK can chime in, Marner really gives off a 'Claude Giroux' vibe.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on January 29, 2015, 10:09:50 AM
Watching some highlights, and maybe LK can chime in, Marner really gives off a 'Claude Giroux' vibe.

You mean great player on a defensively terrible team?

Joking of course. That sounds good. I'm not going going to get too excited about picks until our draft position is a little more defined.

A loss tonight would go a big way to helping that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 29, 2015, 10:15:07 AM
Watching some highlights, and maybe LK can chime in, Marner really gives off a 'Claude Giroux' vibe.

You mean great player on a defensively terrible team?

Joking of course. That sounds good. I'm not going going to get too excited about picks until our draft position is a little more defined.

A loss tonight would go a big way to helping that.

Just looks similar to me, both RH, similar size, both put up huge offensive stats in their draft seasons etc.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7nUCU3XZI[/youtube]
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 10:17:45 AM
Watching some highlights, and maybe LK can chime in, Marner really gives off a 'Claude Giroux' vibe.

So, what you're saying is, whichever GM gets to draft him is going to forget his name at the podium?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 29, 2015, 11:09:30 AM


Yeah, I have to admit this place isn't nearly as fun these past few years as it once was.  Everyone's in a bad mood all the time because any one of us could have done at least as good a job running the team as the bozos who actually get paid to.

No kidding hey?  Even when they were rolling last month...you could tell everyone was not buying it...no crazy blue and white koolaid like years past.   I remember after every win in previous years, everyone would talk about how the team was on the verge of contending.  This year even after they won like 6 in a row everone was waiting for the other shoe To drop.....and it inevetibly did.   The fanbase it completely jaded (with good reason)

We're a sadder but wiser fanbase.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on January 29, 2015, 11:10:20 AM
Well I'm on board the Mitch Marner March to the bottom 5.

Also, would be nice to see a 93 in a Leafs shirt again...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 29, 2015, 11:27:21 AM
Also, would be nice to see a 93 in a Leafs shirt again...

Here you go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYLAei1rFI[/youtube]
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 29, 2015, 12:14:40 PM
Also, would be nice to see a 93 in a Leafs shirt again...

Here you go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYLAei1rFI[/youtube]

 >:(   We definitely need a new 93!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mostar on January 29, 2015, 12:18:51 PM
I've no respect for this edition, but I'll still be a Leaf fan long after all these guys are moved on, for better or worse.

An elite player out of this draft would make a huge difference.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 29, 2015, 05:01:19 PM
Hoping for Philadelphia, Columbus and Ottawa to pull off wins tonight.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 29, 2015, 05:18:53 PM
Hoping for Philadelphia, Columbus, Ottawa and Arizona to pull off wins tonight.

Fixed!   8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on January 29, 2015, 05:51:04 PM
I hope the win 13 of 15 just to shut people up.

You know they just might (I haven't looked at the schedule so that might be a ridiculous statement).

Lupul, Holland and Komarov brings much needed depth, and a legit offensive threat in Lupul.

If the D stays as posted there's a defensive D man and offensive D man on every pairing. Franson-Gardiner on the top PP will probably produce more than Dion.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how much this team misses/doesn't miss Dion's presence. I suspect it'll be less than some make it out to be but the proof will be before our eyes in short order.

It's perfect timing, because either they miss him a lot, go into a tail-spin and end up with a great pick, or they don't miss him much and can consider moving him.

I don't see why the stretch of him injured would make a difference either way.  Did Leafs teams winning a playoff series with Mats Sundin out of the lineup mean they could consider moving him?  Teams shouldn't be basing big decisions like that on smaller stretches with or without a player.
I am sure they are not. They probably already made up their mind to dump him somehow. This should just show that it won't be a huge loss.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 29, 2015, 05:55:49 PM
this Marner looks real good. if he works out he can be "Grand Marner"  just missing one i
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 29, 2015, 06:01:15 PM
this Marner looks real good. if he works out he can be "Grand Marner"  just missing one i

Great I actually don't want to draft Marner anymore.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on January 29, 2015, 06:09:19 PM
I don't share the view that tanking is the answer and history doesn't show any guarantees. While some teams with top picks, Chicago, Pittsburgh have won Stanley Cups with because of high picks, others teams that have accumulated them -- Edmonton, Washington, Ottawa previously -- haven't been able to parlay them in Stanley Cups.

That's like saying that going to college doesn't matter because you can go to college, get your degree and still end up unemployed.

Nobody has ever said that tanking guarantees anything or that it will achieve good results independent of having a good management team in place making good decisions. Just that it's the best and most direct way to accumulate the sort of talent you need to build a winner. Your plan for the Leafs boils down to basically that they don't need to rebuild because they can just "find" a #1 centre and top defensemen like those are things that other teams are eager to give away.

"Just do things better" isn't actually a strategy.

Other teams, such as, LA, St.Louis, Anaheim, have had maybe one top five pick and a host of late first and even later picks that form their core.
On Anaheim, Getzlaf was 19th, Perry 28th, Kesler, 23rd, Fowler, 12th.
St.Louis, apart from Pietangelo at 4th, Tarasenko 16th, Oshie and Steen both 16th, Stastny 44, and Backus 62.

Of the ten players you name here, four were drafted in 2003 which is hands down the best draft year in the history of the NHL. Using picks from those years as "evidence" that Franchise players can be found up and down the draft is essentially advocating for the Leafs to sit around and hope that lightning strikes.

Players picked in the top 5 of a draft are not the equal of each other simply by virtue of draft position. Rielly was taken 5th in what looks to be an incredibly weak draft year. The Kings have Drew Doughty, taken second in an incredibly strong draft year. Are they a wash? Is the Leafs hoping to build around JVR a wash with the Islanders building around Tavares because they were both top 5 picks?

For years people said that the Leafs should build their team the way that the Red Wings did in the 90's but  Communism was never going to fall a second time. At some point you actually have to try to deal with how talent is actually distributed in a repeatable way.

Your college comparison. Your joking right, seriously...

You could go through any roster of top teams and find that most of the "core" is outside of the top 5 picks. The problem with the Leafs is that their top core, doesn't have real leaders. Doesn't mean their not attainable, draft or otherwise.

And, tanking actually can harm your team as much as help them by instilling a losing attitude on the rest of them group. Or making it even more impossible to attract quality players.

I never said you are just going to "find" a top centre and d-man, but that doesn't mean you don't try to make deals or draft to get there eventually. But I guess Dallas wouldn't know anything about finding Tyler Sequin.

Thanks for point out that just getting better isn't a strategy. It wasn't meant to be, more of just pointing out the obvious. But I guess it wasn't obvious enough.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 29, 2015, 06:11:47 PM
this Marner looks real good. if he works out he can be "Grand Marner"  just missing one i

Great I actually don't want to draft Marner anymore.

It's like someone just told you there are worms in that hot cocoa you were about to enjoy.   :D

Given the state of the team, a 'Rime of the Ancient Marner' theme would be more fun to run with.  And since Highlander says he's missing an i, we could fold in some sort of pirate motif.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 29, 2015, 06:12:44 PM
this Marner looks real good. if he works out he can be "Grand Marner"  just missing one i

Great I actually don't want to draft Marner anymore.

He's injured and damaged goods now anyway.  Will Petschenig crosschecked him from behind into the boards and depending on who you talk to may have given him a minor compression fracture.  Petschenig got an 8 game suspension for the hit.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 29, 2015, 06:13:51 PM
He's injured and damaged goods now anyway.  Will Petschenig crosschecked him from behind into the boards and depending on who you talk to may have given him a minor compression fracture.  Petschenig got an 8 game suspension for the hit.

Yeah I heard about that but hadn't heard the severity. Season ending?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on January 29, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
Marner = huge bust
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 29, 2015, 06:26:23 PM
He's injured and damaged goods now anyway.  Will Petschenig crosschecked him from behind into the boards and depending on who you talk to may have given him a minor compression fracture.  Petschenig got an 8 game suspension for the hit.

Yeah I heard about that but hadn't heard the severity. Season ending?

I don't think so.  It's a small fracture if it's true but I think he's definitely out this week and likely next week for sure.  On the whole it's likely not something that necessarily carries forward but I'm always wary of back injuries.  They have a way of lingering.


It's horrible quality but this was the hit.  You can't really tell with the video quality but Domi shoots the puck and the goalie makes a glove save.  Marner never touches the puck inside the blueline.  The crosscheck/shove isn't directly in the numbers but it's from behind and into the side a few feet out from the boards and Marner goes full speed face first into the boards.  A dirty classless play.
http://vine.co/u/1171331767639166976 (http://vine.co/u/1171331767639166976)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 29, 2015, 06:34:31 PM
Marner = huge bust

Did you guys already draft him or something?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 29, 2015, 06:47:54 PM
You could go through any roster of top teams and find that most of the "core" is outside of the top 5 picks. The problem with the Leafs is that their top core, doesn't have real leaders. Doesn't mean their not attainable, draft or otherwise.

And, tanking actually can harm your team as much as help them by instilling a losing attitude on the rest of them group. Or making it even more impossible to attract quality players.

I never said you are just going to "find" a top centre and d-man, but that doesn't mean you don't try to make deals or draft to get there eventually. But I guess Dallas wouldn't know anything about finding Tyler Sequin.

The Maple Leafs have been trying to land a #1 center via trade for almost ten years. Thinking they need one, that's not some grand revelation. Burke knew that. Nonis knows that. The reason they haven't been able to do it yet is because those are players that are almost never available via trade and, when they are, they go for assets the Leafs also don't have.

The fact that you use Tyler Seguin, the #1 centre the Leafs could have had if they'd committed to tanking instead of forgoing the draft to try to trade for a franchise player, as your example is pretty hilariously ironic but even so, ok. So Tyler Seguin was in a pretty unique position. He was on a team chock full of talent, in fact so talented that they could theoretically consider trading their great young center because of what they perceived as his maturity issues and because they already had two guys in Bergeron and Krejci who could be considered #1 centers.

So then, to get Seguin, all Dallas had to do is trade the 27 year old they had who had multiple 70 point seasons. Do the Leafs have a spare one of those I've forgotten about? Are they bringing one up any time soon? The Bruins were willing to trade someone who could have been a cornerstone for the future for someone in the present. The Leafs don't have either of those things. Your position is the strategic equivalent of someone saying "If we had some ham we could make ham and eggs if we also had some eggs".

By advocating for waiting for one of those trades to fall into the Leafs lap you're arguing that they should leave the process up to far more chance than the draft could ever be. No GM, no matter how smart, can control who becomes available for trade and, when they do, they can't control who else wants to trade for that player or what they're offering or what the team with that player is looking to trade. Want to try and draft a #1 Centre at #19 in the draft? You can't control what the other 18 teams do in front of you and they're all furiously trying to draft as well as they can too.

We've seen the results of trying to trade and draft low your way to contention. It's the big pile of garbage they have masquerading as a hockey team now. The best way to try and add talent, elite talent, is drafting at the top. That's just a fact.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 08:56:28 PM
So just to add to this debate, here are the all the #1 centres in the league and where they are drafted from.  Some of these are good, some of these are bad.  Because I don't get to watch all of the teams all of the time, in some cases I used TOI as an indicator of who the #1 centre on a team is.  This may lead to some discussion over who the number one centre is on a particular team.

Ananhiem - Ryan Getzlaf, Drafted by Anahiem in the 1st round, 19th overall
Arizona - Antoine Vermette, Drafted by Ottawa in the 2nd round, 55th overall
Boston - David Krejci, Drafted by Boston in the 2nd round, 63rd overall
Buffalo - Zemgus Girgensons, Drafted by Buffalo in the 1st round, 14th overall
Calgary - Sean Monahan, Drafted by Calgary in the 1st round, 6th overall
Carolina - Eric Stall, Drafted by Carolina in the 1st round, 2nd overall
Chicago - Jonathan Toews, Drafted by Chicago in the 1st round, 3rd overall
Colorado - Matt Duchene, Drafted by Colorado in the 1st round, 3rd overall
Columbus - Ryan Johansen, Drafted by Columbus in the 1st round, 4rth overall
Dallas - Tyler Seguin, Drafted by Boston in the 1st round, 2nd overall (not going to lie, this hurt)
Detroit - Pavel Datsyuk, Drafted by Detroit in the 6th round, 171st overall
Edmonton - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Drafted by Edmonton in the 1st round, 1st overall
Florida - Nick Bjugstad, Drafted by Florida in the 1st round, 19th overall
Los Angeles - Anze Kopitar, Drafted by Los Angles in the 1st round, 11th overall
Minnesota - Mikko Koivu, Drafted by Minnesota in the 1st round, 6th overall
Montreal - Tomas Plekanec, Drafted by Montreal in the 3rd round, 71st overall
Nashville - Mike Ribeiro, Drafted by Montreal in the 2nd round, 45th overall (this is who I think Kadri plays like)
New Jersey - Travis Zajac, Drafted by New Jersey in the 1st round, 20th overall
New York (Islanders) - John Tavares, Drafted by New York Islanders in the 1st round, 1st overall
New York (Rangers) - Derek Stepan, Drafted by New York Rangers in the 2nd round, 51st overall
Ottawa - Kyle Turris, Drafted by Arizona in the 1st round, 3rd overall
Philadelphia - Claude Giroux, Drafted by Philadelphia in the 1st round, 22nd overall
Pittsburgh - Sidney Crosby, Drafted by Pittsburgh in the 1st round, 1st overall
San Jose - Logan Couture, Drafted by San Jose in the 1st round, 9th overall
St. Louis - David Backes, Drafted by St. Louis in the 2nd round, 62nd overall
Tampa Bay - Steven Stamkos, Drafted by Tampa Bay in the 1st round, 1st overall
Toronto - Tyler Bozak, Undrafted, signed by Toronto
Vancouver - Henrik Sedin, Drafted by Vancouver in the 1st round, 3rd overall
Washington - Nicklas Backstrom, Drafted by Washington in the 1st round, 4th overall
Winnipeg - Bryan Little, Drafted by Atlanta (which is now Winnipeg), in the 1st round, 12th overall

So in that list, there are only two cases of first line centres playing on teams that did not draft them.  I think the Shanaplan should be pretty clear here.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 29, 2015, 09:08:17 PM
In all fairness to Bozak he was undrafted and went to college.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 09:10:28 PM
In all fairness to Bozak he was undrafted and went to college.

Hundreds of players went to college and were drafted. In fairness to Bozak, that's entirely meaningless at this point.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 29, 2015, 09:12:56 PM
In all fairness to Bozak he was undrafted and went to college.

Hundreds of players went to college and were drafted. In fairness to Bozak, that's entirely meaningless at this point.

He did not cost us a draft pick or prospects. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 09:17:11 PM
He did not cost us a draft pick or prospects.

He's also not good enough to be the #1 centre on anything more than a middling team, so, the fact that he didn't cost anything other than cash . . . again, entirely meaningless at this point. It really doesn't matter where he came from. What's important is where his replacement is coming from.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 29, 2015, 09:24:21 PM
In all fairness to Bozak he was undrafted and went to college.

How is that "in fairness" to Bozak? For starters it's specifically mentioned in the list and then...who cares? Does that make him more valuable than if he'd been a sixth round pick?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 29, 2015, 09:25:34 PM
Personally I like his career highs of 19 goals and 49 points.  I think those are the measures of greatness.  Free or not, Bozak is mediocre regardless of the measure you use to assess him.  Antoine Vermette is the only player on that list that I wouldn't trade Bozak for.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on January 29, 2015, 09:26:24 PM
He did not cost us a draft pick or prospects.

He's also not good enough to be the #1 centre on anything more than a middling team, so, the fact that he didn't cost anything other than cash . . . again, entirely meaningless at this point. It really doesn't matter where he came from. What's important is where his replacement is coming from.

Unfortunately TO has not sucked well enough to draft a "1 center".
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 29, 2015, 09:28:20 PM
He did not cost us a draft pick or prospects.

He's also not good enough to be the #1 centre on anything more than a middling team, so, the fact that he didn't cost anything other than cash . . . again, entirely meaningless at this point. It really doesn't matter where he came from. What's important is where his replacement is coming from.

Unfortunately TO has not sucked well enough to draft a "1 center".

I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 29, 2015, 09:30:07 PM
Personally I like his career highs of 19 goals and 49 points.  I think those are the measures of greatness.  Free or not, Bozak is mediocre regardless of the measure you use to assess him.  Antoine Vermette is the only player on that list that I wouldn't trade Bozak for.

I probably agree with that conclusion but Bozak for Ribeiro would be hilarious.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 09:30:17 PM
I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 10:16:18 PM
I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Well I haven't given up hope that they may develop Kadri in to a 1b type of first line centre.  That way if the Leafs have to draft a d-man in the first round this year that could potentially become a legitimate #1 d-man in the league then they should take it.

As much as we lament the lack of a true number one centre on the Leafs, he may already be here and we just have to be a patient a little longer.  Looking at the goal that Steen scored two Saturday's ago, it makes me leery of moving Kadri, Reilly, or Gardiner.  JVR may also fall in to that category.  I think that if you move the likes of Kessel, Phanuef, Lupul, and Bozak, and try and maximize the number of assets that you have in your system, then they increase their chances of building a pretty complete team.  There are also pieces like Nylander and Gauthier (he won't be a top 6, but I think he'll be one of the best shutdown centre's in the league) coming along as well.  It just takes time before those pieces are going to be able to contribute and dominate at the NHL level.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 29, 2015, 10:17:46 PM
12 games until the deadline.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 29, 2015, 10:25:14 PM
Posted this in the GDT, but it really belongs here...

MacKenzie saying tonight's loss is a sign from above, and to embrace it. We went from a 6% chance of winning draft lottery to a 7.5% chance in one night.

Atta boy Bob!!! Welcome aboard!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 10:27:47 PM
Well I haven't given up hope that they may develop Kadri in to a 1b type of first line centre.  That way if the Leafs have to draft a d-man in the first round this year that could potentially become a legitimate #1 d-man in the league then they should take it.

I'd say there's a better chance they have that potential #1 d-man in Rielly than there is of Kadri becoming good enough to be the #1 centre on a Cup contending team. It's a little easier to find top pairing dmen later in the draft than it is #1 centres.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 10:36:51 PM
Leafs now own the 6th worst P% in the NHL. 5th is within reach. Top 4 still looking unlikely, but maybe not impossible.

3-15-1 in their last 19. This is what last year might have looked like if the season hadn't ended.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 29, 2015, 10:46:42 PM
If February is anything like January then nothing is impossible.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 10:49:12 PM
Well I haven't given up hope that they may develop Kadri in to a 1b type of first line centre.  That way if the Leafs have to draft a d-man in the first round this year that could potentially become a legitimate #1 d-man in the league then they should take it.

I'd say there's a better chance they have that potential #1 d-man in Rielly than there is of Kadri becoming good enough to be the #1 centre on a Cup contending team. It's a little easier to find top pairing dmen later in the draft than it is #1 centres.

I attended a seminar once that pointed out that one of the problems that we have today as a society is that we take experts opinion at face value without requesting the proof that lead to them having this opinion.

So I'm going to need you to make a chart...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 10:54:49 PM
I attended a seminar once that pointed out that one of the problems that we have today as a society is that we take experts opinion at face value without requesting the proof that lead to them having this opinion.

So I'm going to need you to make a chart...

Weber, Subban, Keith, Byfuglien, Letang, Chara, Yandle - all taken in the 2nd round or later. Same with Vatanen, Brodie, Markov, Josi, Stralman, etc. Giordano was undrafted. Karlsson, Carlson, Shattenkirk, Burns - all taken 14th or later.

Good enough?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 29, 2015, 11:01:16 PM
I attended a seminar once that pointed out that one of the problems that we have today as a society is that we take experts opinion at face value without requesting the proof that lead to them having this opinion.

So I'm going to need you to make a chart...

I think it's pretty straight forward logic. The more developed a player is the easier he is to scout. Defensemen tend to take longer to develop than forwards ergo...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 29, 2015, 11:02:43 PM
I attended a seminar once that pointed out that one of the problems that we have today as a society is that we take experts opinion at face value without requesting the proof that lead to them having this opinion.

So I'm going to need you to make a chart...

Weber, Subban, Keith, Byfuglien, Letang, Chara, Yandle - all taken in the 2nd round or later. Same with Vatanen, Brodie, Markov, Josi, Stralman, etc. Giordano was undrafted. Karlsson, Carlson, Shattenkirk, Burns - all taken 14th or later.

Good enough?

I believe he said a chart was required.  ;)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 29, 2015, 11:20:29 PM
I believe he said a chart was required.  ;)

A list is a lazy man's chart.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 11:21:20 PM
I attended a seminar once that pointed out that one of the problems that we have today as a society is that we take experts opinion at face value without requesting the proof that lead to them having this opinion.

So I'm going to need you to make a chart...

I think it's pretty straight forward logic. The more developed a player is the easier he is to scout. Defensemen tend to take longer to develop than forwards ergo...

So what your saying is that Kadri is what he is, and Reilly or Gardiner could still become something more.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 11:23:30 PM
I attended a seminar once that pointed out that one of the problems that we have today as a society is that we take experts opinion at face value without requesting the proof that lead to them having this opinion.

So I'm going to need you to make a chart...

Weber, Subban, Keith, Byfuglien, Letang, Chara, Yandle - all taken in the 2nd round or later. Same with Vatanen, Brodie, Markov, Josi, Stralman, etc. Giordano was undrafted. Karlsson, Carlson, Shattenkirk, Burns - all taken 14th or later.

Good enough?

I suppose that will do...Still, having a bunch of good d-man isn't a bad thing.  I do see your point however.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 29, 2015, 11:24:34 PM
Ideally they trade for a couple first rounders and have those teams collapse and miss the playoffs for a few extra lottery balls.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 29, 2015, 11:34:01 PM
Well I haven't given up hope that they may develop Kadri in to a 1b type of first line centre.  That way if the Leafs have to draft a d-man in the first round this year that could potentially become a legitimate #1 d-man in the league then they should take it.

I'd say there's a better chance they have that potential #1 d-man in Rielly than there is of Kadri becoming good enough to be the #1 centre on a Cup contending team. It's a little easier to find top pairing dmen later in the draft than it is #1 centres.

I think we've seen pretty much Kadri's upside, and it's not a #1C on a contender.  Not to say that they should get rid of him or he's not valuable.  But he's been in the league long enough now, and he's not a #1C.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 29, 2015, 11:35:34 PM
I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 29, 2015, 11:39:42 PM
As someone posted in the GDT, I just want to see most of this roster gone, the sooner the better.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 11:41:41 PM
I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

How so?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on January 29, 2015, 11:44:43 PM
I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

How so?

Saying that the Leafs still have too much scoring talent to keep losing at this productive and advantageous pace, and that a March climb up a few rungs in the ladder is likely.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 29, 2015, 11:49:35 PM
Well I haven't given up hope that they may develop Kadri in to a 1b type of first line centre.  That way if the Leafs have to draft a d-man in the first round this year that could potentially become a legitimate #1 d-man in the league then they should take it.

I'd say there's a better chance they have that potential #1 d-man in Rielly than there is of Kadri becoming good enough to be the #1 centre on a Cup contending team. It's a little easier to find top pairing dmen later in the draft than it is #1 centres.

I think we've seen pretty much Kadri's upside, and it's not a #1C on a contender.  Not to say that they should get rid of him or he's not valuable.  But he's been in the league long enough now, and he's not a #1C.

2006-2007   Blues   49   10    13    23    6    37    2    0    2    89   11.2
2007-2008   Blues   72   13    18    31    -11    99    3    0    2    129   10.1
2008-2009   Blues   82   31    23    54    -3    165    6    2    1    208   14.9
2009-2010   Blues   79   17    31    48    -4    106    5    0    3    164

Those are the stats for David Backes in his first 4 years in the league.  Those don't exactly scream first line centre to me either.  Sure 2008-2009 looks good, but then there is a back slide in 2009-2010.

I get what people are saying.  He doesn't have numbers like a Sydney Crosby, or a Toews, or a Stamkos.  Those guys are definitely #1's on any team in the leaque. 

Now I am not saying unequivocally that Kadri is a first line centre, but he could still grow in to the role and that the jury is still out on where he will end up.  The Leafs MO over the years is to trade these guys too early in their development before they actually see what they have.   
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on January 30, 2015, 12:12:59 AM

I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

As a Mirtle reader and fan, I think he can accurately title most of his articles, "Whatever you're hoping for, it's not going to happen, and here's why".
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 30, 2015, 12:24:09 AM
At least Philly won today. Damn you Ottawa and damn you Columbus!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 30, 2015, 12:44:52 AM
Those are the stats for David Backes in his first 4 years in the league.  Those don't exactly scream first line centre to me either.

Neither do his numbers since then.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 30, 2015, 08:05:15 AM

I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

As a Mirtle reader and fan, I think he can accurately title most of his articles, "Whatever you're hoping for, it's not going to happen, and here's why".

Yeah. He's a real cheery guy.  ::)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 30, 2015, 08:08:05 AM

I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

As a Mirtle reader and fan, I think he can accurately title most of his articles, "Whatever you're hoping for, it's not going to happen, and here's why".

I especially enjoy his special Sunday edition: "Your parents lied to you and didn't send your dog to go live on a farm."
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 30, 2015, 08:31:48 AM
I think we've seen pretty much Kadri's upside, and it's not a #1C on a contender.  Not to say that they should get rid of him or he's not valuable.  But he's been in the league long enough now, and he's not a #1C.

His even-strength production is similar to that of other 1st line centres in the league, and that's despite having Winnik and Santorelli as his most common wingers. Nobody has ever expected him to be a top-10 or 15 centre, it's unreasonable to hold him to those expectations. At the very least right now he's performing like a pretty elite 2nd line centre (I'm talking about traditional 2C's, not players like Malkin), and really that's what was expected of him when he was drafted.

Also, 1C's are pretty much established on the powerplay, and Kadri hasn't gotten a single lick of playing time on the Leafs top PP unit during his entire career. And that's despite having pretty elite numbers on the man advantage (prior to this season of course). Even when Bozak was out for extended periods the Leafs choose to use 3 wingers on the top unit instead of giving Kadri an opportunity.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on January 30, 2015, 08:35:54 AM

I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

As a Mirtle reader and fan, I think he can accurately title most of his articles, "Whatever you're hoping for, it's not going to happen, and here's why".

I especially enjoy his special Sunday edition: "Your parents lied to you and didn't send your dog to go live on a farm."

Wait, what?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 30, 2015, 08:37:22 AM
Yeah. He's a real cheery guy.  ::)

So now saying that the Leafs are going to start winning again is pessimistic?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on January 30, 2015, 08:42:33 AM
It's like someone just told you there are worms in that hot cocoa you were about to enjoy.   :D

Given the state of the team, a 'Rime of the Ancient Marner' theme would be more fun to run with.  And since Highlander says he's missing an i, we could fold in some sort of pirate motif.

Aww, man. I was drinking a hot chocolate when I read that. Well that drink's done.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 30, 2015, 09:23:23 AM

I think Nik covered this earlier today but yeah, they did.  His name is Tyler Seguin.

And, if they suck just a little longer this season, there's a few potential #1 centres in this year's draft.

Mirtle pours cold water on that in tonite's postgame column.  :(

As a Mirtle reader and fan, I think he can accurately title most of his articles, "Whatever you're hoping for, it's not going to happen, and here's why".

I especially enjoy his special Sunday edition: "Your parents lied to you and didn't send your dog to go live on a farm."

Wait, what?

I'm sorry.  I thought they had told you by now.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 30, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Those are the stats for David Backes in his first 4 years in the league.  Those don't exactly scream first line centre to me either.  Sure 2008-2009 looks good, but then there is a back slide in 2009-2010.

I'm not sure Backes is really a #1 C either. And, while St Louis does have the luxury of having three 2nd line centres right now, their lack of a true #1 C is likely part of the reason they haven't experienced much by way of post-season success.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 30, 2015, 10:00:18 AM
We are the fans, we are tank nation
We are the ones who hope for Connor everyday
So let's start losing
That's just what we're choosing
We're saving our own Leafs
It's true we'll make a better day
Just Shanny, Dubas and me
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 30, 2015, 10:12:48 AM
Last year at 50 games, Leafs had 55 points.

This year at 50 games, Leafs have 48 points.

A top three pick. Don't muck this up boys.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on January 30, 2015, 10:39:32 AM
In all seriousness...what more can Shanahan be evaluating?  What more can Nonis find out about this teams players?  What more can Dubas show in a spreadsheet? 

It's time to dump this teams' garbage...has been for years.

Until next year...when we hire a new GM and he takes one year to evaluate who he has...a year later he hires a new coach...who needs one year to evaluate...by then Shanahan is fired/quit and its time for a new president to take one year to re-examine...(rinse...wash...repeat)

Shanahan had his chance last year to wipe the slate clean and start fresh and he had full reason (3 straight collapses) and opportunity to do so (new GM and New Coach along with himself the new president).  He half a$$ed it...and surprisingly...we get the same results.

I wouldn't even call this year a collapse...at some point you are what you are.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on January 30, 2015, 10:39:57 AM
NHL Draft Simulator:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on January 30, 2015, 10:41:40 AM
In all seriousness...what more can Shanahan be evaluating?  What more can Nonis find out about this teams players?  What more can Dubas show in a spreadsheet? 

It's time to dump this teams' garbage...has been for years.

Until next year...when we hire a new GM and he takes one year to evaluate who he has...a year later he hires a new coach...who needs one year to evaluate...by then Shanahan is fired/quit and its time for a new president to take one year to re-examine...(rinse...wash...repeat)

Shanahan had his chance last year to wipe the slate clean and start fresh and he had full reason (3 straight collapses) and opportunity to do so (new GM and New Coach along with himself the new president).  He half a$$ed it...and surprisingly...we get the same results.

I wouldn't even call this year a collapse...at some point you are what you are.

Agreed, we keep saying give... ABC a chance and time and nothing ever changes except ABC.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 30, 2015, 10:45:06 AM
In all seriousness...what more can Shanahan be evaluating?  What more can Nonis find out about this teams players?  What more can Dubas show in a spreadsheet? 

It's time to dump this teams' garbage...has been for years.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Shanahan may be very actively trying to move out some of the teams' "garbage," but there has to be someone else out there who wants it and is willing to give fair value for it. Just giving players away isn't going to move the team forward.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on January 30, 2015, 11:08:48 AM
NHL Draft Simulator:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Minnesota jumped up from 10th to win it pushing the Leafs down to 9th on my first effort.

It took me 18 attempts to have the Leafs win.

Let's hope the NHL keep going til we win it too.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 30, 2015, 11:10:03 AM
Let's hope the NHL keep going til we win it too.

What, do the Leafs all of a sudden have a Penguin on their jersey or something?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 30, 2015, 11:12:22 AM
What, do the Leafs all of a sudden have a Penguin on their jersey or something?

I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on January 30, 2015, 11:20:58 AM
What, do the Leafs all of a sudden have a Penguin on their jersey or something?

I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.

1984 Penguins in financial trouble, risk of moving - draft Mario Lemieux

2005 Penguins in financial trouble, risk of moving - draft Sidney Crosby

Like, screw off Pittsburgh.  Hope they never win again.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on January 30, 2015, 11:22:12 AM
What, do the Leafs all of a sudden have a Penguin on their jersey or something?

I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.

The NHL owes the Leafs this ;)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Frank E on January 30, 2015, 11:30:56 AM
What, do the Leafs all of a sudden have a Penguin on their jersey or something?

I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.

The significant devaluation of the CDN dollar is also going to affect the cap by a fair margin. 

It's great for manufacturing and exports, but it's going to have an inflationary effect.  It's going to be an interesting year, and in an election year to boot.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Peter D. on January 30, 2015, 11:50:05 AM
I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.

My fear is the league rigging it in favour for that joke of a franchise in Arizona.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 30, 2015, 12:09:27 PM
I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.

My fear is the league rigging it in favour for that joke of a franchise in Arizona.

I heard Strombo say that one of the top picks in the upcoming draft grew up in Arizona idolizing the Coyotes. Who was he talking about?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 30, 2015, 12:19:18 PM
That's Auston Matthews, projected to be the top pick in the 2016 draft. If the league rigs something it'll be that one. Or both I guess.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Derk on January 30, 2015, 12:31:52 PM
NHL Draft Simulator:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Leafs won on the first try!  :o
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on January 30, 2015, 12:48:57 PM
NHL Draft Simulator:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Leafs won on the first try!  :o

Took 5 rolls on the first try, two rolls on the second try.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on January 30, 2015, 01:45:01 PM
Clicked it a zillion times, Leafs always either 8th or 9th.  I have a feeling there's another decent Nikolai Antropov prospect to return the Leafs to their former greatness.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 30, 2015, 02:07:40 PM
That's Auston Matthews, projected to be the top pick in the 2016 draft. If the league rigs something it'll be that one. Or both I guess.

Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 30, 2015, 02:23:24 PM
Those are the stats for David Backes in his first 4 years in the league.  Those don't exactly scream first line centre to me either.  Sure 2008-2009 looks good, but then there is a back slide in 2009-2010.

I'm not sure Backes is really a #1 C either. And, while St Louis does have the luxury of having three 2nd line centres right now, their lack of a true #1 C is likely part of the reason they haven't experienced much by way of post-season success.

They should bottom out and get some elite talent.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 30, 2015, 03:44:00 PM
NHL Draft Simulator:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Leafs won on the first try!  :o

Took 5 rolls on the first try, two rolls on the second try.

Leafs first try as well. No kidding.

Let me spin the real one in the spring Gary! I won't cheat. Promise.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on January 30, 2015, 03:45:53 PM
If Anderson's injury is long term you guys can forget finishing ahead of Ottawa
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 30, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
If Anderson's injury is long term you guys can forget finishing ahead of Ottawa

The battle of Ontario has an ugly new wrinkle this season.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on January 30, 2015, 03:54:08 PM
If Anderson's injury is long term you guys can forget finishing ahead of Ottawa

The battle of Ontario has now taken on an ugly new wrinkle.

One team spending to the cap and trying to tank / finish last and one team last in payroll trying to make the playoffs...bizarro NHL
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 30, 2015, 04:48:34 PM
I'm not conspiracy theorist or anything, but, with the drop in the Canadian dollar, the league likely cannot afford to see the Leafs revenue drop off in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm sure they'd love to see it grow. If there was ever a time the league might rig something in the Leafs' favour, it would be now. I don't see it happening, because I don't believe that's how the actually operate, but, stranger things have happened.

My fear is the league rigging it in favour for that joke of a franchise in Arizona.

One of the guys on Leafs Lunch yesterday was talking about being in Glendale going to the rink.  His cab driver had no idea where it was and had been driving there for 12 years.  Another story about stopping in at a sports bar there and women's tennis was on.  He asked if they could put on the hockey game on and the bartender (of a sports bar) informed him that they don't have the NHL package.  Apparently the locals aren't very attached to their team.

Bring them to Seattle!!!  I'll greet them at the airport.   :D
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 30, 2015, 05:39:59 PM
I am Arizona for the winter's and have gone to plenty of Coyotes games in the past 3 years.  When the Leafs, Chicago, Rangers or any east coast team plays their is a 50 to 50 split in jerseys between the teams.  The fan base is small but voracious.  When West coast teams are here its almost all AZ Jerseys.
I think when they moved out of downtown Phoenix to Glendale they actually shot themselves in the head. I have spoken to many people here who used to go to the games in town but treat Glendale like it is on Mars.  I personally don't get that as the road systems here are to be envied by any other N.A. city and there is ample parking around the complex. Do remember the Cardinals do play in the Super Bowl  Stadium as well and that is located right beside the Jobing Centre.  I think hockey can work here but they need to be in it for the long run.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 30, 2015, 07:34:14 PM
I am Arizona for the winter's and have gone to plenty of Coyotes games in the past 3 years.  When the Leafs, Chicago, Rangers or any east coast team plays their is a 50 to 50 split in jerseys between the teams.  The fan base is small but voracious.  When West coast teams are here its almost all AZ Jerseys.
I think when they moved out of downtown Phoenix to Glendale they actually shot themselves in the head. I have spoken to many people here who used to go to the games in town but treat Glendale like it is on Mars.  I personally don't get that as the road systems here are to be envied by any other N.A. city and there is ample parking around the complex. Do remember the Cardinals do play in the Super Bowl  Stadium as well and that is located right beside the Jobing Centre.  I think hockey can work here but they need to be in it for the long run.

The arena and surrounding area are kind of Vegas style, and really quite nice. I'll be going to another game there in March and looking forward to it! I've never been able to catch a Leaf game there unfortunately.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on January 30, 2015, 07:41:38 PM
I think hockey can work here but they need to be in it for the long run.

It's been 18 years. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a long run.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on January 30, 2015, 08:34:54 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/1Xbyy3Y.png)

Here is the points compared to the bottom 2 finish in 2010.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 30, 2015, 09:19:32 PM
2-2 Blues/Canes with about 3 minutes left in the 3rd.   :D

Devils being outshot 32-10 by the Pens but leading 1-0 with about 6 minutes to go in the 3rd.   ;D

All hail the power of the Tank!!! 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 30, 2015, 09:52:54 PM
2-2 Blues/Canes with about 3 minutes left in the 3rd.   :D

Devils being outshot 32-10 by the Pens but leading 1-0 with about 6 minutes to go in the 3rd.   ;D

All hail the power of the Tank!!!

Pittsburgh ties it and wins it in overtime. New Jersey was outshot 43-14.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 31, 2015, 11:11:07 AM
The shudder at the thought of Buffalo having either McDavid/Eichel and Reinhart down the middle for many many years. Buffalo picked a great year to tank in the best possible way ever.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rob on January 31, 2015, 11:21:31 AM
The shudder at the thought of Buffalo having either McDavid/Eichel and Reinhart down the middle for many many years. Buffalo picked a great year to tank in the best possible way ever.

Yup.  I look forward to many more years of Sabres kicking the Leafs ass.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 31, 2015, 11:28:02 AM
The shudder at the thought of Buffalo having either McDavid/Eichel and Reinhart down the middle for many many years. Buffalo picked a great year to tank in the best possible way ever.

I look forward to seeing how the Sabres inevitably screw that up.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on January 31, 2015, 11:28:31 AM
The shudder at the thought of Buffalo having either McDavid/Eichel and Reinhart down the middle for many many years. Buffalo picked a great year to tank in the best possible way ever.

I look forward to seeing how the Sabres inevitably screw that up.

12 year contracts followed up by a buyout a year later?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Tigger on January 31, 2015, 02:56:24 PM
This is a decent article from Cox, yeah I know...

In an ideal world — if you can term losing ideal — the Leafs might even plummet to within range of McDavid or Eichel, players that could transform the franchise. There is a lottery, don’t forget.

Getting the best draft pick possible (while taming the payroll) is the new focus of management, regardless of how Shanahan decides to proceed with GM Dave Nonis, the coaching staff and the rest of the organization beyond this season.

All of which puts Phaneuf, not to mention other veterans, in a difficult spot, and leaves Leaf management forced to decide which players (if any) should be retained to complement the new core they want to build. In other words, how low do they want to go? How many drafts in a row do they want to pick in the top five?

This much is true. Shanahan has to find a way to see beyond this city’s perversity of perception when it comes to hockey players, even if the city’s fans and media can’t. Smart, careful decisions have to be made with assets the team already owns, and Phaneuf would be at the top of that list. Blowing it up doesn’t mean it has to be done recklessly, or thoughtlessly.

It may not be sensible to keep Phaneuf as the roster is renovated and the payroll is shaved, but that doesn’t mean it would make sense just to give him away, as Sittler, Murphy and Sundin were once given away for little or nothing in return.

That didn’t help anything. And yes, the Leafs were rebuilding then, too. (http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2015/01/30/rebuilding-maple-leafs-shouldnt-dump-dion-phaneuf-at-any-cost-cox.html)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 31, 2015, 03:42:51 PM
Either Phanuef or Clarkson needs to go and Clarkson is immovable in my opinion. There is a market for big lumbering #3 or 4 defencemen me thinks.  Move out Bozak, Lupul and Riemer as well.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 31, 2015, 04:08:39 PM
Phanuef in LA is a good fit with Voynov out. Nonis was in Manchester scouting Mike Richards last night - or so we believe he was there for Richards.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 31, 2015, 04:10:42 PM
I think I read that Richards didnt play?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on January 31, 2015, 04:15:27 PM
Either Phanuef or Clarkson needs to go and Clarkson is immovable in my opinion. There is a market for big lumbering #3 or 4 defencemen me thinks.  Move out Bozak, Lupul and Riemer as well.

If there is a way to parlay Phaneuf, Winnick, Santorelli, Franson, Lupul and Reimer into another 1st rounder (or maybe even two), Shanny has to do it without hesitation. Although, I would be tempted to keep one of Franson or Phaneuf around for some blueline experience.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 31, 2015, 04:16:12 PM
He did play.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 31, 2015, 04:23:49 PM
Phanuef in LA is a good fit with Voynov out. Nonis was in Manchester scouting Mike Richards last night - or so we believe he was there for Richards.

He was in Manchester, but it wasn't specifically to see Richards. The scouting trip had been planned before Richards even hit the waiver wire. The Leafs have been talking to LA, and, odds are, Nonis was there to watch some of the prospect LA has on the farm. The timing was coincidental.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on January 31, 2015, 04:30:51 PM
Thanks MC you are correct, it is a no brainer Redleaf, we have to find a way to keep Franson, I like his game.
My only keepers, Kessel, Komorav, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner. I would like to keep Holland as well as we are both Caledon boys. Notice Bernier/Reimer are not on my list. Bernier is a good goalie, can he be a great goalie, I have my doubts, he even said he has to be mentally tougher. Heck lad, your 26 now, when is mental toughness of the Unbroken kind going to reach your game?
We need to get as many picks as we can and as early in the draft as possible. I have not been a tank person but I am buying in this year. We need a retooling.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on January 31, 2015, 04:47:29 PM
Phanuef in LA is a good fit with Voynov out. Nonis was in Manchester scouting Mike Richards last night - or so we believe he was there for Richards.

He was in Manchester, but it wasn't specifically to see Richards. The scouting trip had been planned before Richards even hit the waiver wire. The Leafs have been talking to LA, and, odds are, Nonis was there to watch some of the prospect LA has on the farm. The timing was coincidental.

Thanks for that. Might be a good thing he wasn't there for Richards. Having that contract for 6 more years...ouch!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on January 31, 2015, 06:29:58 PM
Thanks MC you are correct, it is a no brainer Redleaf, we have to find a way to keep Franson, I like his game.
My only keepers, Kessel, Komorav, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner. I would like to keep Holland as well as we are both Caledon boys. Notice Bernier/Reimer are not on my list. Bernier is a good goalie, can he be a great goalie, I have my doubts, he even said he has to be mentally tougher. Heck lad, your 26 now, when is mental toughness of the Unbroken kind going to reach your game?
We need to get as many picks as we can and as early in the draft as possible. I have not been a tank person but I am buying in this year. We need a retooling.

I wouldn't mind keeping Franson, but it will be just another long-term, high cap hit contract.  The Leafs already have too many of those not giving good value.  I think Kessel needs to go too, partly for that reason.  The other part is, if the Leafs are truly going to start moving guys out and building through the draft, Kessel will be past his prime when they are a serious contender.  Given that he doesn't seem to like training, I'm guessing there will come a point where his natural ability isn't enough anymore.  So, trading him prior to that point, while his value is high, isn't a bad idea.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 31, 2015, 06:57:48 PM
Thanks for that. Might be a good thing he wasn't there for Richards. Having that contract for 6 more years...ouch!

5 more years, but, yeah, unless it's straight up for Clarkson, it's not a good deal for the Leafs. Even then, it's questionable. Richards' only benefit ahead of Clarkson right now is that he plays a more important position.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 31, 2015, 07:00:34 PM
5 more years, but, yeah, unless it's straight up for Clarkson, it's not a good deal for the Leafs. Even then, it's questionable. Richards' only benefit ahead of Clarkson right now is that he plays a more important position.

Richards is a better hockey player than Clarkson, contracts aside. Even with contracts at least his is more buy-out friendly too.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on January 31, 2015, 07:05:17 PM
Could you imagine the meltdown if they somehow agree a trade for Clarkson and it is leaked that he refused to go?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 31, 2015, 07:14:27 PM
So would this be a sideways move or do you think the Leafs would get better:

To Toronto:  Evgeni Malkin
To Pittsburgh:  Phil Kessel, Tyler Bozak

I mean throw away the would they or won't they questions, and salary cap implications, would this particular deal make the Leafs a better team than they are today.


Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on January 31, 2015, 07:15:43 PM
Richards is a better hockey player than Clarkson, contracts aside. Even with contracts at least his is more buy-out friendly too.

He was. I'm not so convinced he is anymore. His skating has really deteriorated and his points/60 is very close to Clarkson's. He has better defensive instincts, but, I'm not sure he's capable of acting on them anymore.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 31, 2015, 07:23:12 PM
So would this be a sideways move or do you think the Leafs would get better:

To Toronto:  Evgeni Malkin
To Pittsburgh:  Phil Kessel, Tyler Bozak

I mean throw away the would they or won't they questions, and salary cap implications, would this particular deal make the Leafs a better team than they are today.




It absolutely makes them better.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 31, 2015, 07:33:36 PM
So would this be a sideways move or do you think the Leafs would get better:

To Toronto:  Evgeni Malkin
To Pittsburgh:  Phil Kessel, Tyler Bozak

I mean throw away the would they or won't they questions, and salary cap implications, would this particular deal make the Leafs a better team than they are today.




It absolutely makes them better.

From like 5th worst team the NHL to 10th worst team in the NHL, or from non playoff team to playoff team?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on January 31, 2015, 07:37:09 PM
From like 5th worst team the NHL to 10th worst team in the NHL, or from non playoff team to playoff team?

If that's the only move it probably doesn't get up in the playoffs, but the team would be in much better shape with Malkin as their 1C than Kessel as their top winger for the next 7 years. And I'm a big Kessel fan. The loss of Bozak is really inconsequential in a deal like that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on January 31, 2015, 07:38:17 PM
So would this be a sideways move or do you think the Leafs would get better:

To Toronto:  Evgeni Malkin
To Pittsburgh:  Phil Kessel, Tyler Bozak

I mean throw away the would they or won't they questions, and salary cap implications, would this particular deal make the Leafs a better team than they are today.




It absolutely makes them better.

From like 5th worst team the NHL to 10th worst team in the NHL, or from non playoff team to playoff team?

I still don't think they make the playoffs with the difference but Malkin is one of the best players in the NHL and is a centre, so they're definitely better.

They also end up with cap space....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on January 31, 2015, 07:39:50 PM
From like 5th worst team the NHL to 10th worst team in the NHL, or from non playoff team to playoff team?

If that's the only move it probably doesn't get up in the playoffs, but the team would be in much better shape with Malkin as their 1C than Kessel as their top winger for the next 7 years. And I'm a big Kessel fan. The loss of Bozak is really inconsequential in a deal like that.

I'm just trying to gauge how bad the leafs really are at this point, and how long the turnaround is going to take.  Chances are, they aren't going to draft a Malkin this year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: KW Sluggo on February 01, 2015, 01:54:38 PM
Thanks MC you are correct, it is a no brainer Redleaf, we have to find a way to keep Franson, I like his game.
My only keepers, Kessel, Komorav, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner. I would like to keep Holland as well as we are both Caledon boys. Notice Bernier/Reimer are not on my list. Bernier is a good goalie, can he be a great goalie, I have my doubts, he even said he has to be mentally tougher. Heck lad, your 26 now, when is mental toughness of the Unbroken kind going to reach your game?
We need to get as many picks as we can and as early in the draft as possible. I have not been a tank person but I am buying in this year. We need a retooling.

I wouldn't mind keeping Franson, but it will be just another long-term, high cap hit contract.  The Leafs already have too many of those not giving good value.  I think Kessel needs to go too, partly for that reason.  The other part is, if the Leafs are truly going to start moving guys out and building through the draft, Kessel will be past his prime when they are a serious contender.  Given that he doesn't seem to like training, I'm guessing there will come a point where his natural ability isn't enough anymore.  So, trading him prior to that point, while his value is high, isn't a bad idea.

Yes Franson is a decent player, no disagreement.

However he has made zero difference on a team that is now losing almost 100% of its games. Let's just pause to thick about that for a second  - that is a staggering feat to lose an entire month's worth of games.

That money could better be spent elsewhere and his value as a trade piece is exponentially greater than his value on the ice.

He is far from alone in this regard.

This analysis applies to virtually every member of the current roster which need to be gutted like a catfish.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 01, 2015, 02:08:53 PM
I hoist the home brew I'm quaffing at the moment to you, sir.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 01, 2015, 08:50:25 PM
A few lines cherry-picked from Siegel's column:


....

That was the first collapse. Nearly three years later, amid three more meltdowns of varying order, change isn’t likely to be so minimal for the heart of the Leafs' roster.

And they know it.

....

The results have been evident enough. This core has failed and failed repeatedly. And they understand that change is coming, that the referendum on their tenure is all but over.

“For sure,” Lupul acknowledged ahead of a 1-0 loss to the Flyers, their ninth straight. “Your highest-paid guys are always going to be the guys that get the most praise when you’re winning and the most criticism when you’re losing. We haven’t got the job done. It’s frustrating for me because I haven’t been playing during this – for myself that’s been the case too often.”

....

Bigger and more difficult questions for Shanahan and his front office team to debate are those of the Leafs two highest-paid players: Kessel and Phaneuf. It’s difficult to envision a scenario where both return next season given all that’s taken place in their respective tenures, not to mention the as yet unknown direction of the team moving forward.

....

The referendum on the core, though, is over. What’s to be done about it is all that remains.

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on February 02, 2015, 07:16:14 AM
A few lines cherry-picked from Siegel's column:


....

That was the first collapse. Nearly three years later, amid three more meltdowns of varying order, change isn’t likely to be so minimal for the heart of the Leafs' roster.

And they know it.

....

The results have been evident enough. This core has failed and failed repeatedly. And they understand that change is coming, that the referendum on their tenure is all but over.

“For sure,” Lupul acknowledged ahead of a 1-0 loss to the Flyers, their ninth straight. “Your highest-paid guys are always going to be the guys that get the most praise when you’re winning and the most criticism when you’re losing. We haven’t got the job done. It’s frustrating for me because I haven’t been playing during this – for myself that’s been the case too often.”

....

Bigger and more difficult questions for Shanahan and his front office team to debate are those of the Leafs two highest-paid players: Kessel and Phaneuf. It’s difficult to envision a scenario where both return next season given all that’s taken place in their respective tenures, not to mention the as yet unknown direction of the team moving forward.

....

The referendum on the core, though, is over. What’s to be done about it is all that remains.



About a year too late for my liking....some of us have known this for awhile.   
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on February 03, 2015, 08:56:49 AM
The Leafs look like they could very well finish up with about the 5th pick in the draft. That will give them a shot at the lottery, but if not, would be sweet to snag a guy like Dylan Strome. If that were to happen, and hoping the William Nylander and Connor Brown continue to progress. That would be a significant influx of forward talent in a couple of years. Given that already have quite a few scoring threats up front - that aren't scoring - there seems to be sufficient pieces (Phanuef being the first and maybe a forward or two) to move around for some more young defensive prospects.
I'd personally think they should try to keep Franson (at the right price) if they can move Phaneuf. If they can't, Franson is pretty much gone I suspect. Cap is too tight, may as well get something for him. But personally I'd sooner see Phaneuf moved and let Rielly and Gardiner eat up those left side minutes. Percy likely becomes the number 3 left side guy. If Franson gets moved, leaves a pretty big hole on the right side, and I don't think moving Phaneuf back there is the answer.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 03, 2015, 10:24:25 AM
Slapshot, I concur completely…good post
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 03, 2015, 10:43:56 AM
The dysfunction is rampant:

Ray Ferero :  "The Leafs have a president that wasn't hired by the owners, A GM. that wasn't hired by the president, a coach the wasn't hired by the GM and assistants who weren't hired by the coach. "Who puts a team together like that?"

Hard to wrap you head around it? Everything below Shanahan should be replaced excluding a handful of players. Eat salary if you have too, were in it for the long haul, the rebuild will be a long one to do it right.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 11:00:10 AM
Hard to wrap you head around it? Everything below Shanahan should be replaced excluding a handful of players. Eat salary if you have too, were in it for the long haul, the rebuild will be a long one to do it right.

Other than Nonis, pretty much everyone in management or coaching has been replaced since Shanahan came aboard.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 03, 2015, 11:03:06 AM
Hard to wrap you head around it? Everything below Shanahan should be replaced excluding a handful of players. Eat salary if you have too, were in it for the long haul, the rebuild will be a long one to do it right.

Other than Nonis, pretty much everyone in management or coaching has been replaced since Shanahan came aboard.

And FWIW, Horachek was "appointed" head coach (I'd say hired but what do I know) by the GM so it's not exactly correct.

The organization has been unbelievably bad for 10 years though. That's gotta fall on someone just not sure who.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 11:07:13 AM
The organization has been unbelievably bad for 10 years though. That's gotta fall on someone just not sure who.

Partly on ownership for hiring the wrong people to steer the ship and partly on the people who were steering the ship in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 03, 2015, 11:13:18 AM
The owners didn't hire Shanahan?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Peter D. on February 03, 2015, 11:15:14 AM
The owners didn't hire Shanahan?

Yeah, I didn't understand that one either.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 11:21:57 AM
The owners didn't hire Shanahan?

I guess Ferraro's pointing out that Lieweke, the guy that hired Shanahan, is already on the way out the door. It's admittedly a bit of a stretch to say that ownership didn't hire him, but, the incoming president of MLSE didn't hire him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on February 03, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
Hard to wrap you head around it? Everything below Shanahan should be replaced excluding a handful of players. Eat salary if you have too, were in it for the long haul, the rebuild will be a long one to do it right.

Other than Nonis, pretty much everyone in management or coaching has been replaced since Shanahan came aboard.

Isn't Nonis really the biggest culprit of them all?   Isn't all the rest "just show" and ultimately meaningless.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 11:30:31 AM
Isn't Nonis really the biggest culprit of them all?   Isn't all the rest "just show" and ultimately meaningless.

To a point, yes. When he had full autonomy, he was absolutely a major issue. He no longer has that, so, in a way, he's been replaced in that he's unofficially been demoted.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on February 03, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
The owners didn't hire Shanahan?

He might have been alluding  that Shanny was brought in by Tim Leiweke who himself is on his way out now.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 03, 2015, 01:53:00 PM
That one really doesnt wash as Tim Leiweke got approval for Shanaplan to take over. So it was stamped by management in one way or another. and Shanaplan has replaced the two assistant coaches, fired Loiselle/Poulen and brought in Dubois and Hunter. Now his coach is in place, not Randy.
Seems to me it is getting less dysfunctional all of a sudden.   And perhaps Nonis will be with old pal Burke in the not to distant future.
Oh heard that Calgary are the 3rd worst possession team in the league right now. How strange.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 03, 2015, 01:56:27 PM
The owners didn't hire Shanahan?

I guess Ferraro's pointing out that Lieweke, the guy that hired Shanahan, is already on the way out the door. It's admittedly a bit of a stretch to say that ownership didn't hire him, but, the incoming president of MLSE didn't hire him.

Which, to be fair, could very well be as awkward as implied if the incoming President is anything like Leiweke in being a hands-on running the whole operation kind of guy as opposed to a Richard Peddie type.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 03, 2015, 03:02:56 PM

To a point, yes. When he had full autonomy, he was absolutely a major issue. He no longer has that, so, in a way, he's been replaced in that he's unofficially been demoted.

We know this?  Or just assume/hope it?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
We know this?  Or just assume/hope it?

When Shanahan was hired, Nonis acknowledged that he has to get final approve from "his boss" and such. Having his assistants and such ripped out from under him is another sign that he no longer has the autonomy he once had. Moves of any significance have to be run up the chain of command before they can be executed.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 03, 2015, 03:31:50 PM
We know this?  Or just assume/hope it?

When Shanahan was hired, Nonis acknowledged that he has to get final approve from "his boss" and such. Having his assistants and such ripped out from under him is another sign that he no longer has the autonomy he once had. Moves of any significance have to be run up the chain of command before they can be executed.

“Listen, I have a boss and it’s Brendan,” Nonis said. “At the end of the day, the boss has the final say in anything.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 03, 2015, 03:56:51 PM
“Listen, I have a boss and it’s Brendan,” Nonis said. “At the end of the day, the boss has the final say in anything.

I don't think we will ever truly know how much autonomy Nonis or any future Leafs GM under Shanahan will have. I mean, technically that quote from Nonis was true even before Shanny was brought on board. It's just then Nonis' boss was Leiweke or the MLSE board.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 03, 2015, 03:58:09 PM
That one really doesnt wash as Tim Leiweke got approval for Shanaplan to take over. So it was stamped by management in one way or another. and Shanaplan has replaced the two assistant coaches, fired Loiselle/Poulen and brought in Dubois and Hunter. Now his coach is in place, not Randy.
Seems to me it is getting less dysfunctional all of a sudden.   And perhaps Nonis will be with old pal Burke in the not to distant future.
Oh heard that Calgary are the 3rd worst possession team in the league right now. How strange.

Who are all these people? Dubois? Shanaplan? Poulen?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 03, 2015, 04:11:27 PM
That one really doesnt wash as Tim Leiweke got approval for Shanaplan to take over. So it was stamped by management in one way or another. and Shanaplan has replaced the two assistant coaches, fired Loiselle/Poulen and brought in Dubois and Hunter. Now his coach is in place, not Randy.
Seems to me it is getting less dysfunctional all of a sudden.   And perhaps Nonis will be with old pal Burke in the not to distant future.
Oh heard that Calgary are the 3rd worst possession team in the league right now. How strange.

Who are all these people? Dubois? Shanaplan? Poulen?

Cherry's talking points for Saturday night.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 05:08:42 PM
I don't think we will ever truly know how much autonomy Nonis or any future Leafs GM under Shanahan will have. I mean, technically that quote from Nonis was true even before Shanny was brought on board. It's just then Nonis' boss was Leiweke or the MLSE board.

Well, the difference there was that Leiweke was the President of MLSE, not the Leafs specifically. He wasn't a hockey guy and shouldn't have had much say in hockey-related decisions, while the MLSE board was there to rubber stamp things and make sure the money was okay. Shanahan, on the other hand, is specifically in charge of the Leafs, and is expected to have input in hockey-related decisions. He's expected to be less concerned about money and newsworthy moves and the kind of things Leiweke was supposed to prioritize, and more concerned about building a team that can actually win.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on February 03, 2015, 06:12:29 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/jFNiZPm.png)

From Insider Trading on TSN tonight.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 03, 2015, 06:15:41 PM
Man, TSN must so super excited that the Leafs might be active on trade deadline day.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 03, 2015, 06:18:54 PM
Wait, Holzer? Seriously? I'm sure playoff teams will be clamouring for a 27-year old 7/8 defenceman with 50-ish NHL games to his name.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 03, 2015, 06:24:50 PM
Wait, Holzer? Seriously? I'm sure playoff teams will be clamouring for a 27-year old 7/8 defenceman with 50-ish NHL games to his name.

Nobody will be falling over themselves offering four first rounders, sure, but if a team wants depth and all it would cost is a 6th rounder or thereabouts?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on February 03, 2015, 06:28:50 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/jFNiZPm.png)

From Insider Trading on TSN tonight.

Remember when most of the players on this list were under 25 and we were one of the youngest teams in the league and we were excited about our future!  Good times...

 ;)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 03, 2015, 06:32:49 PM
Nobody will be falling over themselves offering four first rounders, sure, but if a team wants depth and all it would cost is a 6th rounder or thereabouts?

Most teams prefer to look at veterans when adding depth at that position. I just can't imagine a playoff team thinking that Holzer would be an improvement over what they currently have in their farm system.

Maybe it's just the completely arbitrary percentage system that Dreger used. If he was going to pull numbers out of his behind like that Holzer's should have at least been much lower considering there won't be very much interest.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 03, 2015, 06:50:34 PM
Bozak probably would be a good fit for a team that doesn't try and make him a #1 center.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 03, 2015, 07:02:51 PM
Most teams prefer to look at veterans when adding depth at that position. I just can't imagine a playoff team thinking that Holzer would be an improvement over what they currently have in their farm system.

Maybe it's just the completely arbitrary percentage system that Dreger used. If he was going to pull numbers out of his behind like that Holzer's should have at least been much lower considering there won't be very much interest.

He's a right-handed shot, which is something teams are always looking for, and he allows teams to leave their younger players to develop instead of throwing them into the pressure of a playoff run. He's cheap and he's on an expiring contract. He's exactly the type of depth pickup teams make at the deadline. A few guys like him get moved every deadline. He'll only bring back a 6th or a 7th, but I imagine Dreger's made up odds of him being moved are actually pretty close to the reality.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: caveman on February 03, 2015, 07:04:01 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/jFNiZPm.png)

From Insider Trading on TSN tonight.

Remember when most of the players on this list were under 25 and we were one of the youngest teams in the league and we were excited about our future!  Good times...

 ;)

Part of this process will be to clear cap space and roster spots too..
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 03, 2015, 07:06:39 PM
Wait, Holzer? Seriously? I'm sure playoff teams will be clamouring for a 27-year old 7/8 defenceman with 50-ish NHL games to his name.

I hear he could fetch an 8th round pick...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 03, 2015, 07:44:01 PM
Nobody will be falling over themselves offering four first rounders, sure, but if a team wants depth and all it would cost is a 6th rounder or thereabouts?

Most teams prefer to look at veterans when adding depth at that position. I just can't imagine a playoff team thinking that Holzer would be an improvement over what they currently have in their farm system.

Maybe it's just the completely arbitrary percentage system that Dreger used. If he was going to pull numbers out of his behind like that Holzer's should have at least been much lower considering there won't be very much interest.

As much as I tend to disregard media speculation around the deadline I'd guess Dreger's numbers aren't completely arbitrary. I'd have to guess that, at a minimum, he called around to the people he talks too around the league and asked what the likelihood is that these players get moved. I agree that putting percentages to it is silly but I'd guess that the answer he got with Holzer is "sure, but not for much".

I mean, yeah, teams would prefer a veteran but not everybody gets what they want at the deadline and the dregs do get moved.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on February 03, 2015, 07:56:28 PM
Wait, Holzer? Seriously? I'm sure playoff teams will be clamouring for a 27-year old 7/8 defenceman with 50-ish NHL games to his name.

I hear he could fetch an 8th round pick...

That's better than a 9th rounder!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 03, 2015, 08:00:31 PM
I'd rather have half a fourth rounder. Top or bottom, doesnt matter.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on February 03, 2015, 10:02:12 PM
Man, TSN must so super excited that the Leafs might be active on trade deadline day.

I bet the $ rate for the ads went up on trade line day.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 03, 2015, 10:03:25 PM
Lupul to Arizona
Franson to Carolina
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 04, 2015, 07:50:23 AM
Lupul to Arizona
Franson to Carolina

I have read Dion to LA
Reimer to CJB
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 04, 2015, 08:34:53 AM
Well, the difference there was that Leiweke was the President of MLSE, not the Leafs specifically. He wasn't a hockey guy and shouldn't have had much say in hockey-related decisions, while the MLSE board was there to rubber stamp things and make sure the money was okay. Shanahan, on the other hand, is specifically in charge of the Leafs, and is expected to have input in hockey-related decisions. He's expected to be less concerned about money and newsworthy moves and the kind of things Leiweke was supposed to prioritize, and more concerned about building a team that can actually win.

I do still think that people are reading more into that line than they should have. Shanahan isn't the teams GM. If he wanted to be he could quite easily have that title. His job isn't to oversee every single trade and signing that the team makes. He sets the direction and hands off the responsibilities to the rest of the front office. I'm sure as a brain trust the entire group will make a decision on whether they should trade or re-sign Franson, with Shanahan having a big say there. But if Nonis comes back to Shanahan and says hey I've got a deal all done and ready to go I can't see a situation where Shanny would say "no, I think you could get a 1st instead of a 2nd round pick, go back and do it again".

I've certainly joked myself about Nonis being the assistant GM now but I don't think that's actually the case. This isn't a Sakic/Sherman scenario like in Colorado. Nonis is still the General Manager of this team, and Shanahan clearly trusts him to be in that position and to make the decisions that a GM would, otherwise he would have already been fired. In Boston Chiarelli has a boss in the same situation as Nonis, but nobody thinks that he isn't any less of a GM.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 04, 2015, 09:07:26 AM
Keep transitioning that 18 wheeler off the cliff into an aircraft carrier over a waterfall, boys!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 04, 2015, 09:19:18 AM
Well, the difference there was that Leiweke was the President of MLSE, not the Leafs specifically. He wasn't a hockey guy and shouldn't have had much say in hockey-related decisions, while the MLSE board was there to rubber stamp things and make sure the money was okay. Shanahan, on the other hand, is specifically in charge of the Leafs, and is expected to have input in hockey-related decisions. He's expected to be less concerned about money and newsworthy moves and the kind of things Leiweke was supposed to prioritize, and more concerned about building a team that can actually win.

I do still think that people are reading more into that line than they should have. Shanahan isn't the teams GM. If he wanted to be he could quite easily have that title. His job isn't to oversee every single trade and signing that the team makes. He sets the direction and hands off the responsibilities to the rest of the front office. I'm sure as a brain trust the entire group will make a decision on whether they should trade or re-sign Franson, with Shanahan having a big say there. But if Nonis comes back to Shanahan and says hey I've got a deal all done and ready to go I can't see a situation where Shanny would say "no, I think you could get a 1st instead of a 2nd round pick, go back and do it again".

I've certainly joked myself about Nonis being the assistant GM now but I don't think that's actually the case. This isn't a Sakic/Sherman scenario like in Colorado. Nonis is still the General Manager of this team, and Shanahan clearly trusts him to be in that position and to make the decisions that a GM would, otherwise he would have already been fired. In Boston Chiarelli has a boss in the same situation as Nonis, but nobody thinks that he isn't any less of a GM.

Would Nonis have had to run every deal past Leiweke or someone else prior to Shanahan?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 04, 2015, 09:44:33 AM
Would Nonis have had to run every deal past Leiweke or someone else prior to Shanahan?

Not every deal, no. Large deals would have needed board approval. I'm pretty sure I even remember Burke saying something to that effect. But I'm not convinced that Nonis has to run every single deal by Shanny. Even with Franson, I just used that as an example to show how absurd it could be, but why would another GM want to negotiate with Nonis if it should really be Shanahan that's making the decision? And why would Shanahan employ a GM that he doesn't trust to make a trade?

Nonis isn't going to go out and make a trade or signing that Shanahan, Dubas, and Hunter would all disagree with him on. They're going to have to be on roughly the same page, and their input is going to be much more beneficial to the team than what Poulin and Loiselle were giving.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 04, 2015, 09:49:46 AM
Would Nonis have had to run every deal past Leiweke or someone else prior to Shanahan?

Not every deal, no. Large deals would have needed board approval. I'm pretty sure I even remember Burke saying something to that effect. But I'm not convinced that Nonis has to run every single deal by Shanny. Even with Franson, I just used that as an example to show how absurd it could be, but why would another GM want to negotiate with Nonis if it should really be Shanahan that's making the decision? And why would Shanahan employ a GM that he doesn't trust to make a trade?

Nonis isn't going to go out and make a trade or signing that Shanahan, Dubas, and Hunter would all disagree with him on. They're going to have to be on roughly the same page, and their input is going to be much more beneficial to the team than what Poulin and Loiselle were giving.

I'm just thinking that in the past Nonis may have just done what he wanted outside of big moves but now would (as I read it) run/discuss each move with Shanahan et al first.  But that's just guessing really.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 04, 2015, 09:54:01 AM
I'm just thinking that in the past Nonis may have just done what he wanted outside of big moves but now would (as I read it) run/discuss each move with Shanahan et al first.  But that's just guessing really.

He probably has to get final approval from Shanahan. To me, the biggest change is that Nonis no longer has the final say in the direction the team is taking. He's not longer trying to execute his vision. It's Shanahan's call and Shanahan's vision of the team going forward. He's the one giving the marching orders, and Nonis is now on the receiving end.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 04, 2015, 09:55:47 AM
I'm just thinking that in the past Nonis may have just done what he wanted outside of big moves but now would (as I read it) run/discuss each move with Shanahan et al first.  But that's just guessing really.

He probably has to get final approval from Shanahan. To me, the biggest change is that Nonis no longer has the final say in the direction the team is taking. He's not longer trying to execute his vision. It's Shanahan's call and Shanahan's vision of the team going forward. He's the one giving the marching orders, and Nonis is now on the receiving end.

I've been sort of viewing Nonis sticking around as Shanahan hoping to mold the team in his vision but wanting to take advantage of Nonis' experience as GM in terms of connections around the league, experience in negotiating with other GMs, etc.  Knowledge like that which Shanahan wouldn't be able to learn elsewhere.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 04, 2015, 10:02:06 AM
I've been sort of viewing Nonis sticking around as Shanahan hoping to mold the team in his vision but wanting to take advantage of Nonis' experience as GM in terms of connections around the league, experience in negotiating with other GMs, etc.  Knowledge like that which Shanahan wouldn't be able to learn elsewhere.

Yeah. It takes time to cultivate relationships with other GMs, and those relationships can be very helpful in terms of getting trades done. It's a big reason why we tend to see some teams trade more frequently with each other. Keeping someone like Nonis around while others start to build those relationships is potentially very useful, especially considering the lack of experience from the other guys in the front office.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 04, 2015, 10:10:59 AM
Moving up the standings:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 04, 2015, 10:37:57 AM
A good article on how the situation in Boston works with a Team President and a GM:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/09/30/bruins-front-office-moves-front-line/JWL37Uobsv3nPb0zVAkRHL/story.html

Obviously, every situation will be unique, but this is how it breaks down in Boston:

Quote
In simple terms, the trio works this way:

■ Neely is head of concept and vision, charged with identifying, restoring, and helping to maintain the franchise’s image, culture, and ethos on both the playing and business sides of the operation.

■ Chiarelli is the chief hockey integrator, managing both up and down the organization, empowered, he says, with autonomy to make all player moves he and his group deem necessary — including the blockbuster transactions that dealt high-profiled young stars Phil Kessel and Tyler Seguin in a span of less than 48 months.

■ Julien’s role is application, the shaping, employment, and maximizing of the player products delivered to his doorstep by Chiarelli and assistant GMs Jim Benning and Don Sweeney, the pair of ex-NHL defensemen who serve as Chiarelli’s trusted player-personnel lieutenants.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: mc on February 04, 2015, 10:45:07 AM
Moving up the standings:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Took 27 tries for the Leafs to win the lottery and move from 6th to 1st.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 04, 2015, 10:47:29 AM
Moving up the standings:

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/

Took 27 tries for the Leafs to win the lottery and move from 6th to 1st.
"So your saying there's a chance?"
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on February 04, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
I am pretty much resided to the fact that the Leafs will finish in the 7-10 range...and that a team higher than us will win the lottery and we will actually move down a spot.

It's so TML....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 04, 2015, 12:13:57 PM
I've been sort of viewing Nonis sticking around as Shanahan hoping to mold the team in his vision but wanting to take advantage of Nonis' experience as GM in terms of connections around the league, experience in negotiating with other GMs, etc.  Knowledge like that which Shanahan wouldn't be able to learn elsewhere.

Yeah. It takes time to cultivate relationships with other GMs, and those relationships can be very helpful in terms of getting trades done. It's a big reason why we tend to see some teams trade more frequently with each other. Keeping someone like Nonis around while others start to build those relationships is potentially very useful, especially considering the lack of experience from the other guys in the front office.

Yep. That was my read on the situation once Shanahan cut out the old assistant GMs/coaches. Carlyle didn't play ball (aim for development, establish defensive foundational play) for long, so that accelerated the plan on the on-ice side of things. Nonis now has inexperienced, but exceptional support from Dubas (analytics translator, OHL and under expert), Hunter (development, OHL and under expert), Pridham (salary cap management). Nonis has always struck me as more effective in a role of middle management anyway, executing a set vision, rather than casting his own.


From MLHS's latest Leafs Notebook (link (http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/02/03/leafs-notebook-february-3-2/))
Quote
I think the next few years is the time to load up on draft picks, but maybe not for the reason you think. In the NFL, I saw the Seahawks take steal after steal in the late rounds because Pete Carroll knew the college route so well and had the inside scoop on hundreds of players. Many of the players he brought over to the Seahawks were players he openly tried to recruit and at times was unsuccessful in doing so (Richard Sherman, for example). Mark Hunter and Kyle Dubas are going to know the OHL like the back of their hand right now. For this draft, and the next draft, they’ll have firsthand knowledge of what these prospects were like playing minor midget, to how they transitioned to the OHL, to what their ceiling is. Evaluating is about putting all pieces of information together to make a judgement, and the amount of information they will have on the two upcoming drafts, at least for the OHL, will be second to none. I am curious to see how many players they take from the OHL, and if they will be able to load up on picks. Now is definitely the time to do it. Teams value draft picks the least at this time of year.

The time to see the fruits of our off season management moves is in the next 3-5 years. This season was a wash from the get go and we're now simply paying off the shortcuts the previous regime(s) took to keep the ship afloat. So Leafs Nation, keep calm and tank on.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on February 04, 2015, 12:16:15 PM
Yep. That was my read on the situation once Shanahan cut out the old assistant GMs/coaches. Carlyle didn't play ball (aim for development, establish defensive foundational play) for long, so that accelerated the plan on the on-ice side of things. Nonis now has inexperienced, but exceptional support from Dubas (analytics translator, OHL and under expert), Hunter (development, OHL and under expert), Pridham (salary cap management). Nonis has always struck me as more effective in a role of middle management anyway, executing a set vision, rather than casting his own.

That's exactly how I see it too. I'm fine with him remaining as GM, executing Shanahan's directives.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 04, 2015, 12:31:34 PM
A good article on how the situation in Boston works with a Team President and a GM:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/09/30/bruins-front-office-moves-front-line/JWL37Uobsv3nPb0zVAkRHL/story.html

Great find. I like this quote too, which is an aspect of Horachek's approach that I really admire (because it hurts his results initially):

Quote
Julien’s ability to work with whatever players are sent his way, said Chiarelli, is in large part why he recently labeled the veteran coach his most significant hire in Boston. Julien and his staff are “malleable,” said Chiarelli, able to groom all players, for the most part, to deliver in a defensive-oriented system that is the shared vision of both coach and GM.

“One thing I am not is hard-headed,’’ said Julien. “As I often say to Peter, my role as coach is always the same, to get the most out of players I have in my possession. If I do that, and it’s not good enough, then it’s up to Peter to make those changes. If I don’t do my job, and don’t get the most out of a player, it’s hard for him to know if that player should go or stay. That’s how you have to work together on that kind of stuff.’’

In short order, Horachek has been able to get buy-in from most of the team and cull some dumb habits. We're still losing at the moment, but it's probably the best season in over 10 years to be a loser in.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 04, 2015, 12:41:10 PM
Keep transitioning that 18 wheeler off the cliff into an aircraft carrier over a waterfall, boys!

I think Homer is a perfect metaphor for this years Leaf team.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1358 (http://www.hulu.com/watch/1358)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: skrackle on February 04, 2015, 12:55:18 PM
I'd get rid of Nonis. The sooner the better. After the season? Fine, just do it.

Nonis has built a horrible Leafs teams while capping them out with ugly long term contracts. I didn't like a lot of Burke's moves, but at least he had the Leafs in reasonably good cap position. Nonis has decimated that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 04, 2015, 01:10:21 PM
Reports saying Santorelli wants 3 per for 3.

I'd explore moving several others before moving him if that's all he wants. He's been the 3rd or 4th best forward this year imo.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 01:19:29 PM
Reports saying Santorelli wants 3 per for 3.

I'd explore moving several others before moving him if that's all he wants. He's been the 3rd or 4th best forward this year imo.

That's probably more of a statement about the other guys on the team than Santorelli though.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 04, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
Reports saying Santorelli wants 3 per for 3.

I'd explore moving several others before moving him if that's all he wants. He's been the 3rd or 4th best forward this year imo.

Even at that . . . if the Leafs are going into a real rebuild, they're better off with the assets they could get by trading him now and maybe taking a run at him as a UFA than signing him. You can probably replace him for less than $3M on a short-term deal with a late summer signing. I've liked what he's brought to the team, but, I think he'd be better served going to a team that isn't about to be torn asunder, while the Leafs are better not committing multiple years to anyone significantly older than 25.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 04, 2015, 01:42:20 PM
3 at 3 is good for Santorelli, worth keeping, I would move Winneck, Lupul, Bozak, Phanuef and (Clarkson if at all possible)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 04, 2015, 01:51:07 PM
As much as I'd love the picks I'd also love to keep Santorelli.  But I understand why it's worth it to move him.

26 ES points in 49 games for Vancouver last season.  24 ES points in 52 games for the Leafs this season.  He's a solid ES producer which is valuable.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 04, 2015, 02:10:25 PM
This team would be much better off if it had a few more Santorelli's on the roster. Watching the game last night, I was struck by the contrast between him and Winnik, versus Kessel and JVR. No comparison in effort level. It looked like Kessel in particular had given up. Sloppy, half-hearted pass attempts, no offensive zone possession, few chances. Is he still injured? If not, there is no excuse for that type of performance. Same with JVR, he was just waving his stick at opponents instead of making a real physical effort to retrieve the puck.

At this point I'd rather keep Santorelli and trade Kessel...keep Santorelli around as a mentor to the younger players on the team (if he is interested in that role). Best option would be to trade him for something now, then resign during the summer, though I don't know how realistic that is.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 04, 2015, 02:41:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iZDSsUTU34#t=138
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 04, 2015, 02:43:59 PM
This team would be much better off if it had a few more Santorelli's on the roster. Watching the game last night, I was struck by the contrast between him and Winnik, versus Kessel and JVR. No comparison in effort level. It looked like Kessel in particular had given up. Sloppy, half-hearted pass attempts, no offensive zone possession, few chances. Is he still injured? If not, there is no excuse for that type of performance. Same with JVR, he was just waving his stick at opponents instead of making a real physical effort to retrieve the puck.

At this point I'd rather keep Santorelli and trade Kessel...keep Santorelli around as a mentor to the younger players on the team (if he is interested in that role). Best option would be to trade him for something now, then resign during the summer, though I don't know how realistic that is.

Welcome to TMLFans, Chris!

Your scenario is my ideal outcome for Santorelli and Winnik. But if it doesn't happen that way and we get 2nd/3rd rd picks out of the deals, I'm okay with that too. Draft for similar personalities (Santorelli is a Roberts-lite) and our bottom six will do just fine.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Capital Leaf on February 04, 2015, 03:19:06 PM
What was the coach thinking???

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/jonathan-bernier-should-he-have-stayed-on-the-bench-1.2944242
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Michael on February 04, 2015, 03:37:18 PM
I have not read the majority of this thread. Sorry if I cover anything already done by someone else. I find it hard to log in to this site much anymore. The Leafs are just too depressing.

As much as it concerns me to see guys like Bernier, Kadri, Gardiner and Rielly losing so much I confess to all out cheering for losses. I was unhappy last night when the Leafs took the lead and glad when they lost it again. Why? I have been a devoted fan for over 40 years and I do not see a better way out of this than to lose a great deal now in the short term and then do well in the draft.

In that regard, I hardly think I am alone. When the Leafs fired Carlyle it took them a day to announce Horachek. Why? People also found it strange that Horachek was put in place as they went out on a very tough western road trip. Why? Is it not at least possible that a guy like Nonis and Shanny see the same things that many of us do? By bringing in Horachek and stressing a more defensive style of play the Leafs have the opportunity to evaluate players and also free fall in the standings.

How low can they go? Less than 10 days ago I was talking with people about the bottom 5 and they all said that would never happen. Now look? Can they make it to the bottom 3?

I used to hold onto the hope that they might sign Stamkos in a year, make him the captain and build around him to be a solid team in 3 - 5 years. Stamkos is not coming. What hope is left really except to fall and fall hard. What if..... really, what if they won the draft lottery. Wow, wouldn't that be something. But beyond that kind of "out there" hope I find it pretty hard to be excited about the buds at all anymore.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 04, 2015, 03:46:26 PM
Welcome to TMLFans, Chris!

Your scenario is my ideal outcome for Santorelli and Winnik. But if it doesn't happen that way and we get 2nd/3rd rd picks out of the deals, I'm okay with that too. Draft for similar personalities (Santorelli is a Roberts-lite) and our bottom six will do just fine.

Thanks...been reading here for a long time but finally signed up to post when Carlyle was fired.

I would have liked to see a full-out rebuild start when Burke arrived (just think how much further along in the process we'd be right now...5 years, right?) I'd like to see it now, unless...one exception, if there is a way to bring in a true number 1 center to elevate/complement Kessel's game without decimating the rest of the roster. People keep talking about O'Reilly, I haven't seen enough of him to have an opinion if he could be the one. All I know is, right now at least, when we don't have the puck, the Kessel line (JVR/Bozak/Kessel) is essentially playing a man or more down, since Kessel is completely ineffective as a checker...and the others aren't much better. I'd like to see if Kessel could be more effective with a stronger center.

Unfortunately I don't see that player in the system and don't know if we can draft one that would be able to play that role soon enough to take advantage of Kessel's "prime" years.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: caveman on February 04, 2015, 03:53:53 PM
What was the coach thinking???

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/jonathan-bernier-should-he-have-stayed-on-the-bench-1.2944242

It's the tail wagging the dog...again... ( remember Bernier was played against LA with an injured knee ) ... bad call by Horacek...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 04, 2015, 04:01:48 PM
. What if..... really, what if they won the draft lottery. Wow, wouldn't that be something. But beyond that kind of "out there" hope I find it pretty hard to be excited about the buds at all anymore.

It's their best chance at winning anything this year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: hap_leaf on February 04, 2015, 04:24:25 PM
This team would be much better off if it had a few more Santorelli's on the roster. Watching the game last night, I was struck by the contrast between him and Winnik, versus Kessel and JVR. No comparison in effort level. It looked like Kessel in particular had given up. Sloppy, half-hearted pass attempts, no offensive zone possession, few chances. Is he still injured? If not, there is no excuse for that type of performance. Same with JVR, he was just waving his stick at opponents instead of making a real physical effort to retrieve the puck.

Maybe.  But they used to say Sundin floated and that wasn't the case.  My point being that sometimes it is difficult to determine Kessel's desire because he can also lay low in the weeds and then spring on the attack.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 04, 2015, 04:29:07 PM
This team would be much better off if it had a few more Santorelli's on the roster. Watching the game last night, I was struck by the contrast between him and Winnik, versus Kessel and JVR. No comparison in effort level. It looked like Kessel in particular had given up. Sloppy, half-hearted pass attempts, no offensive zone possession, few chances. Is he still injured? If not, there is no excuse for that type of performance. Same with JVR, he was just waving his stick at opponents instead of making a real physical effort to retrieve the puck.

Maybe.  But they used to say Sundin floated and that wasn't the case.  My point being that sometimes it is difficult to determine Kessel's desire because he can also lay low in the weeds and then spring on the attack.

I also think a lot of time people use "playing poorly" and "not trying" interchangeably.  Pretty much whenever Kessel struggles he's criticized as not trying hard enough.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 04, 2015, 05:03:48 PM
This team would be much better off if it had a few more Santorelli's on the roster. Watching the game last night, I was struck by the contrast between him and Winnik, versus Kessel and JVR. No comparison in effort level. It looked like Kessel in particular had given up. Sloppy, half-hearted pass attempts, no offensive zone possession, few chances. Is he still injured? If not, there is no excuse for that type of performance. Same with JVR, he was just waving his stick at opponents instead of making a real physical effort to retrieve the puck.

Maybe.  But they used to say Sundin floated and that wasn't the case.  My point being that sometimes it is difficult to determine Kessel's desire because he can also lay low in the weeds and then spring on the attack.

I also think a lot of time people use "playing poorly" and "not trying" interchangeably.  Pretty much whenever Kessel struggles he's criticized as not trying hard enough.

Body language can be pretty telling.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 04, 2015, 05:08:36 PM

I also think a lot of time people use "playing poorly" and "not trying" interchangeably.  Pretty much whenever Kessel struggles he's criticized as not trying hard enough.

Well, I can only judge based on what I see on the ice. For argument's sake, I'll say Kessel is "struggling" (whatever that really means - injury, biorhythms, lack of interest, etc). Can the Leafs really afford to build their team around an $8 millon player who goes through slumps like this every year - where he scores 3 goals in 21 games (and contributes nothing else)?

Can his consistency be improved by bringing in a new center? Or maybe by moving out his buddy (Bozak)? If not, what is the point of having someone like him on the roster.

As for Sundin...I do remember him getting the "floating" tag at times. But, I can't remember his line essentially being hemmed into their own end on almost every shift game after game...even against the opponent's 4th line. It's been a few years, though.




Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 05:33:39 PM
Draft for similar personalities (Santorelli is a Roberts-lite) and our bottom six will do just fine.

So Tyler Biggs, Phillipe Paradis...tough guys?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 04, 2015, 05:44:35 PM
. What if..... really, what if they won the draft lottery. Wow, wouldn't that be something. But beyond that kind of "out there" hope I find it pretty hard to be excited about the buds at all anymore.

It's their best chance at winning anything this year.

While were at it and just for fun, let's go into complete fantasy mode/child boards/whatever you want to call it....

The Leafs trade Phaneuf and a 2nd to LA for Richards & their 1st, Franson & Kadri go to Nashville for Jones, and Bozak & Gardiner to Avalanche for O'Reilly. They get 2 first rounders, one of them is McDavid.

Year ONE of the rebuild looks something like this..

Kessel- O'Reilly- JVR
Winnik-McDavid- Holland
Komarov-Santorelli-Clarkson
Nylander- Richards- Brown

Percy- Rielly
Jones- Polak
UFA/prospect- Robidas

Bernier
Reimer

Bob's your Uncle, I'm a Leaf fan again... ;D
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 04, 2015, 06:38:56 PM
Draft for similar personalities (Santorelli is a Roberts-lite) and our bottom six will do just fine.

So Tyler Biggs, Phillipe Paradis...tough guys?

I don't see much of Santorelli in Tyler Biggs and Phillipe Paradis. He is a hard skating, hard working team player. Not the most skilled, but puts everything he has into doing his job. His other teammates have made fun of him for all the extra hours he puts into his stickwork along the boards, and quick turn cuts.

See Siegel's article (http://www.tsn.ca/siegel-serious-santorelli-quietly-offering-value-to-leafs-1.144530) from Nov 2014.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 07:11:37 PM
I don't see much of Santorelli in Tyler Biggs and Phillipe Paradis. He is a hard skating, hard working team player. Not the most skilled, but puts everything he has into doing his job. His other teammates have made fun of him for all the extra hours he puts into his stickwork along the boards, and quick turn cuts.

Ah. So where the Leafs have been goofing is drafting all of those guys who don't work hard.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 04, 2015, 07:41:15 PM
I don't see much of Santorelli in Tyler Biggs and Phillipe Paradis. He is a hard skating, hard working team player. Not the most skilled, but puts everything he has into doing his job. His other teammates have made fun of him for all the extra hours he puts into his stickwork along the boards, and quick turn cuts.

Ah. So where the Leafs have been goofing is drafting all of those guys who don't work hard.

And they had been drafting slowpokes.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 04, 2015, 07:41:31 PM
Quote
@NHLCanes

Jeff Skinner and Riley Nash may be healthy extras in Arizona, plus an update on #Canes goaltender Cam Ward

Tank game strong with these guys.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 07:50:49 PM
I don't see much of Santorelli in Tyler Biggs and Phillipe Paradis. He is a hard skating, hard working team player. Not the most skilled, but puts everything he has into doing his job. His other teammates have made fun of him for all the extra hours he puts into his stickwork along the boards, and quick turn cuts.

Ah. So where the Leafs have been goofing is drafting all of those guys who don't work hard.

And they had been drafting slowpokes.

Shame they didn't have anyone warning them off the slow, lazy guys.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 04, 2015, 08:30:36 PM
Draft for similar personalities (Santorelli is a Roberts-lite) and our bottom six will do just fine.

So Tyler Biggs, Phillipe Paradis...tough guys?

I don't see much of Santorelli in Tyler Biggs and Phillipe Paradis. He is a hard skating, hard working team player. Not the most skilled, but puts everything he has into doing his job. His other teammates have made fun of him for all the extra hours he puts into his stickwork along the boards, and quick turn cuts.

See Siegel's article (http://www.tsn.ca/siegel-serious-santorelli-quietly-offering-value-to-leafs-1.144530) from Nov 2014.
I'm sorry dude but you can't be serious. All things being equal, including work ethic, you draft for skill plain and simple. Do you think the majority of players making it into the draft do so because they were lazy and didn't try game in game out? I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

I love how people think skill is god given and hard work is within control. Sometimes players are better than others because they not only have higher ceilings but also worked their butts off to get so good and to the level that they're at.

Even if you get paid a lot to play you still have a passion for the game and desire to win. Its bred into you by that point.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on February 04, 2015, 08:35:02 PM
alexander daigle.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 04, 2015, 08:39:49 PM
alexander daigle.
Pavel Datsyuk.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on February 04, 2015, 08:46:21 PM
ben johnson
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 04, 2015, 09:05:38 PM
My butt.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on February 04, 2015, 09:29:32 PM
stinks?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
I'm sorry dude but you can't be serious. All things being equal, including work ethic, you draft for skill plain and simple. Do you think the majority of players making it into the draft do so because they were lazy and didn't try game in game out? I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

I love how people think skill is god given and hard work is within control. Sometimes players are better than others because they not only have higher ceilings but also worked their butts off to get so good and to the level that they're at.

Even if you get paid a lot to play you still have a passion for the game and desire to win. Its bred into you by that point.

And to that end, no matter how much Mike Santorelli might have the mental and physical attributes that make for an ideal 3rd liner or depth player, he's also 28 years old. His attitude, his work ethic and, yes, his physical make-up are going to be effected by his 10 years as a professional.

Was Santorelli super serious as an 18 year old? I don't know. I think it's safe to say that, like most people, he probably changed some in his first years as an adult. When 18 year olds are interviewed in the scouting process I'm sure that seriousness and dedication to hockey are, like you say, pretty common answers. The thing that you can't really know is how these players will react to the setbacks and demands and money that come with a pro career.

So really all you're left with is footspeed and footspeed is A) easily measurable and B) a valued commodity.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 09:37:50 PM
alexander daigle.

I don't know what that's in reference to but I think Daigle is the ultimate example of what I'm talking about. Daigle wasn't an out of left field pick. There was some debate that year about who should go #1 but it wasn't like Daigle was supposed to be a 3rd round pick. If the mental make-up that made for a successful NHL player was easy to identify in 18 year olds then talent distribution in the draft would be a lot more top heavy.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on February 04, 2015, 09:53:01 PM
i recall the daigle was praised highly for his skill set but there were worries about his workethic.

it was a caveat to the draft the most skilled. theres more to it.

conversely the johnson comment was out there to address the comment about god given skill. i prefer to consider it genetics vs god given. the man was the fastest canadian ever for a long time. unless of course you are willing to consider that there are a lot of white canadian sprinters who are not working hard enough.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 04, 2015, 10:11:14 PM
i recall the daigle was praised highly for his skill set but there were worries about his workethic.

Sure. And there were worries about Phil Kessel's work ethic. And Jaromir Jagr's. And a whole host of players who went on to be terrific hockey players. Likewise, there are tons of super-hard working AHLers. My point is that there is no one mental make-up that makes for success. Look at the Blackhawks. They have two great young forwards. One is, by all accounts, the most serious guy who ever lived and the other is kind of an idiot who gets into drunken mishaps.

I agree that there's more to it than just "skill" in the fairly narrow way we define skill but that doesn't make it any easier to gauge.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 04, 2015, 11:20:02 PM
Draft for similar personalities (Santorelli is a Roberts-lite) and our bottom six will do just fine.

So Tyler Biggs, Phillipe Paradis...tough guys?

I don't see much of Santorelli in Tyler Biggs and Phillipe Paradis. He is a hard skating, hard working team player. Not the most skilled, but puts everything he has into doing his job. His other teammates have made fun of him for all the extra hours he puts into his stickwork along the boards, and quick turn cuts.

See Siegel's article (http://www.tsn.ca/siegel-serious-santorelli-quietly-offering-value-to-leafs-1.144530) from Nov 2014.
I'm sorry dude but you can't be serious. All things being equal, including work ethic, you draft for skill plain and simple. Do you think the majority of players making it into the draft do so because they were lazy and didn't try game in game out? I find that exceedingly hard to believe.

I love how people think skill is god given and hard work is within control. Sometimes players are better than others because they not only have higher ceilings but also worked their butts off to get so good and to the level that they're at.

Even if you get paid a lot to play you still have a passion for the game and desire to win. Its bred into you by that point.

I get where you're coming from, but I wasn't saying draft based on personality in the absence of skill.

Santorelli used to coast by on his good enough skill. He wisened up after bouncing around. I was just saying we should look out for more players who exhibit the qualities of his personality; people who are serious about their craft. It's something that can be developed or triggered by an event (career threatening injury), but there has to be an underlying propensity for it. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 05, 2015, 09:20:15 AM
Arizona plays Carolina tonight. If the Coyotes win they'll be just 2 points behind the Leafs. GP would then be even.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 05, 2015, 05:05:04 PM
Tomorrow night and Saturday night should be real interesting games for tank nation. Lose both and this thing is really in high gear!!!!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 06, 2015, 08:23:28 AM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 06, 2015, 08:45:43 AM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 06, 2015, 09:06:38 AM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.

No optimism allowed in this thread, they will not win either games, and there will not be any "run of good hockey". Tank Nation is as strong as it has ever been and we have just the right team to pull it off, a perfect mix of dysfunction, skill, leadership, and poop.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 06, 2015, 09:17:46 AM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.

It wouldn't be surprising if they did.  The team isn't good but it also isn't this bad.  Of course trades could change that, but all these players won't stay offensively challenged for too much longer. 

And then I fully expect to see Kessel criticized for starting to score again.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on February 06, 2015, 11:11:12 AM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.

In usual Leafs fashion I would expect this to happen. But these are unusual times, and I think Shannan has other ideas. They are more likely to be sellers, thus gutting the team of a few players that will likely be filled by Marlies in hopes the slide continues and they get a top five pick, while seeing what some of the farmhands can do. I'd like to see the Leafs shed $10-15 mil in cap space, between the trade deadline and the draft.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on February 06, 2015, 11:35:50 AM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.

It wouldn't be surprising if they did.  The team isn't good but it also isn't this bad.  Of course trades could change that, but all these players won't stay offensively challenged for too much longer. 

And then I fully expect to see Kessel criticized for starting to score again.

Count me in!!!   ;)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 06, 2015, 12:17:58 PM
I think Kessel (and linemates) is in on the tank. How else do you explain the pathetic performance of the top line in the last game? It's all part of the plan...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 06, 2015, 12:47:22 PM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.

It wouldn't be surprising if they did.  The team isn't good but it also isn't this bad.  Of course trades could change that, but all these players won't stay offensively challenged for too much longer. 

And then I fully expect to see Kessel criticized for starting to score again.

Count me in!!!   ;)

He doesn't even need to score.  I'm mad at him just at the thought of it.

The Devils have won 2 in a row, and are 6-2-2 in their last 10.  They're also 10-7-7 on home ice.  The truth is, with a little luck they could have easily been 17-7 on home ice which is better than Pittsburgh, Chicago and San Jose.

I think this one gets ugly... like the awesome kind of ugly.  6-0 Devils, with the Leafs been driven out of town in Panzers.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 06, 2015, 01:19:48 PM
Carolina beat Arizona in the shootout last night. Hooray for 3-point games. Arizona getting the win would have been ideal but this keeps more options open I guess.

Like a very outside shot at 3rd!

I fully expect the Leafs to win the next 2 games in convincing fashion and start a run of good hockey.

I'm fairly confident that we finish with the 7-9th overall pick which is a shame but we should still get a good player there.

It wouldn't be surprising if they did.  The team isn't good but it also isn't this bad.  Of course trades could change that, but all these players won't stay offensively challenged for too much longer. 

And then I fully expect to see Kessel criticized for starting to score again.

Count me in!!!   ;)

He doesn't even need to score.  I'm mad at him just at the thought of it.

The Devils have won 2 in a row, and are 6-2-2 in their last 10.  They're also 10-7-7 on home ice.  The truth is, with a little luck they could have easily been 17-7 on home ice which is better than Pittsburgh, Chicago and San Jose.

I think this one gets ugly... like the awesome kind of ugly.  6-0 Devils, with the Leafs been driven out of town in Panzers.

Sounds exciting!  :D
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 06, 2015, 07:42:15 PM
I re-read what I wrote earlier and indeed I misspoke and made it sound like I was advocating deliberately drafting bottom six players. My bad, Nik and Bender!

What I was trying to say was if we draft for certain the Santorelli personality (alongside top six potential skill), the worst that will come of it will be good bottom six players due to their work ethic.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 06, 2015, 08:01:05 PM
I think Kessel (and linemates) is in on the tank. How else do you explain the pathetic performance of the top line in the last game? It's all part of the plan...

Shhhhhh!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 06, 2015, 08:06:23 PM
I re-read what I wrote earlier and indeed I misspoke and made it sound like I was advocating deliberately drafting bottom six players. My bad, Nik and Bender!

What I was trying to say was if we draft for certain the Santorelli personality (alongside top six potential skill), the worst that will come of it will be good bottom six players due to their work ethic.

No, I got that. My points were:

1) If a player has an easily identifiable positive work ethic and top six potential skill he's going to be highly sought after by every single team in the draft.
2) There is no "right" personality type for what determines success as a hockey player, star or third liner.
3) Even if there were, it's not easily identifiable in 18 year old amateurs. As per the article you referenced Santorelli admits that the Santorelli "personality" was something he developed through struggle and set back through his years as a professional.

So there's really not much to guide the Leafs in terms of drafting there. If the Leafs are picking highly in the draft then they should really emphasize skill above all else(otherwise they'd make the same mistake Pittsburgh did and pass on players like Phil Kessel) and if they're not picking highly then the kind of player you're talking about won't be available. If the talents and mindset that made for successful bottom six players were easily identifiable, if any sort of successful NHL career was a "worst case scenario" for any draft pick, then good bottom six players wouldn't fall to the sixth round like Mike Santorelli did.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Manson on February 07, 2015, 07:44:17 AM
Y'know what's crazy?  Despite how bad this current slide is (and it's not like they were having the greatest season before this) the Leafs still have more wins than LA.  :o
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 07, 2015, 11:09:02 AM
Another good night in Tanksville, as Columbus destroyed St. Louis. They're now 1 point back with 3 games in hand, which puts us one bad decision by the 4th place team away from drafting Strome.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 07, 2015, 11:31:25 AM
It's hard to stay positive with the Leafs setting franchise records (who says they don't accomplish anything?), but Tank Nation needs to press on!

Hopefully tonight the Oilers stay on their hot streak and the Leafs continue setting records.  Then we need:

New Jersey to destroy Montreal (please!!!!)
Columbus beating Ottawa in overtime
Coyotes beating Detroit at home
Carolina to beat San Jose on the road

If all goes according to plan the Leafs could be in a top 5 position, and only 3 points away from a top 3.  THAT is exciting!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 07, 2015, 11:31:46 AM
Y'know what's crazy?  Despite how bad this current slide is (and it's not like they were having the greatest season before this) the Leafs still have more wins than LA.  :o

Which is where our captain is heading.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 07, 2015, 05:07:33 PM
We can only pray.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 07, 2015, 08:47:52 PM
I don't like the Leafs chances of winning the lottery.  Last year Horachek took over as an interim coach for Florida, they finished second last and won the lottery.  Can't see that happening again. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 07, 2015, 08:49:24 PM
I don't like the Leafs chances of winning the lottery.  Last year Horachek took over as an interim coach for Florida, they finished second last and won the lottery.  Can't see that happening again.

If it makes you feel better it's pretty unlikely that Horachek is still the coach come the draft.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 07, 2015, 09:14:11 PM
I don't like the Leafs chances of winning the lottery.  Last year Horachek took over as an interim coach for Florida, they finished second last and won the lottery.  Can't see that happening again.

If it makes you feel better it's pretty unlikely that Horachek is still the coach come the draft.

You'd think but according to the second intermission Cox is sure Nonis will be GM through the trade deadline, so....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 07, 2015, 09:18:05 PM
I don't like the Leafs chances of winning the lottery.  Last year Horachek took over as an interim coach for Florida, they finished second last and won the lottery.  Can't see that happening again.

If it makes you feel better it's pretty unlikely that Horachek is still the coach come the draft.

I don't think he was Florida's either when they drafted Ekblad.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 07, 2015, 10:08:45 PM
You'd think but according to the second intermission Cox is sure Nonis will be GM through the trade deadline, so....

Yeah, but he's the legman, not the idea man.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 07, 2015, 10:09:48 PM
If it makes you feel better it's pretty unlikely that Horachek is still the coach come the draft.

Come the draft, likely not. Come the lottery, which takes place a couple days after the regular season . . . he still technically could be. Not that I think that will have any impact on things.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 07, 2015, 11:47:30 PM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 08, 2015, 12:14:18 AM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL

I think that if Colorado got their fan Nathan MacKinnon, it's only fair that the Leafs get McDavid.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 08, 2015, 12:27:21 AM
I saw a guy maybe in his late 30s yesterday walking around with a Toronto Maple Leafs "Stanley Cup Champions" jacket yesterday.  I literally did a quadruple-take, stunned by both the product and the willingness to wear it.  So tempted to take a photo, but I resisted.  As much as I could tell, it didn't even say 1967 or any other Cup year on it.  I can't even imagine what would possess somebody to buy and wear such a coat, and during an 11 game losing streak, no less.  I felt like saying, "please stop wearing that coat, you're embarrassing all of us".
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 08, 2015, 12:44:35 AM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL

I think that if Colorado got their fan Nathan MacKinnon, it's only fair that the Leafs get McDavid.

Didn't Matt Duchene grow up an avs fan as well?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 08, 2015, 01:12:07 AM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL

I think that if Colorado got their fan Nathan MacKinnon, it's only fair that the Leafs get McDavid.

Didn't Matt Duchene grow up an avs fan as well?

I don't know why but I get the sense that when you're a really top flight young player you're probably more inclined to root for specific players you admire than you are to really catch the team-specific allegiance we have.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: MetalRaven on February 08, 2015, 08:43:00 AM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL

I think that if Colorado got their fan Nathan MacKinnon, it's only fair that the Leafs get McDavid.

Didn't Matt Duchene grow up an avs fan as well?

I don't know why but I get the sense that when you're a really top flight young player you're probably more inclined to root for specific players you admire than you are to really catch the team-specific allegiance we have.

Its interesting that you bring this up, I was just having this discussion with my sister last night. Its odd to me that I even cheer for a team. When you look right at it I became a fan of hockey because I liked certain players...Billy Ranford first then Esa Tikanen (sp?) then Messier...then Edmonton traded everyone I liked...I actually kinda felt betrayed when it happened (I was like 12 I think) I definitely didn't feel like staying an Oilers fan or even that I should be expected to remain one. Started looking for a new team, found I really liked Gilmour, Andrechuk and Clark so I became a Leafs fan...then they got Sundin...it was great my favourite player at the time who wasn't with the leafs (was playing fantasy hockey and Sundin was making me look like a genius). Point to this rambling? Since Sundin I can't really point to any player on the Leafs that I can say "I like that player"

So why am I still a Leafs fan? I dunno. Its not exactly the players, cause I dont like any of them (maybe JVR), its definitely not the management team...hahaha fan of management. No one is a fan of this management group. Im not exactly a fan of the colour blue...nor do I think the Leaf is the coolest logo (it is pretty cool comparatively)

Maybe its just a delusion that one day the Leafs will make me feel as excited as I was when I was cheering them on when it was Gilmour and crew. Cognitively I know it would simply be easier to walk away, find new players that I like watching and cheer for that team instead but for some reason im still here, waiting for us to get Sundin so I can get excited about this team again.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 08, 2015, 09:27:26 AM
Watching young Rielly starting to develop (what a sweet goal last night) just makes me want this team to tank even harder.

It was a nice win against the 2nd worst team in the league. Please don't make this a habit and go on some sort of winning streak now boys.

This team badly needs a franchise type centreman to add to their collection of young, up and coming players like Rielly and Nylander.

Oh, and stop playing REIMER. He will RUIN this tank!!!!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 08, 2015, 11:12:06 AM

Oh, and stop playing REIMER. He will RUIN this tank!!!!

I wouldn't worry too much about that. This is the same Reimer that gave up 4 to the Devils.... The Devils!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 08, 2015, 11:13:57 AM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL

I think that if Colorado got their fan Nathan MacKinnon, it's only fair that the Leafs get McDavid.

Didn't Matt Duchene grow up an avs fan as well?

I don't know why but I get the sense that when you're a really top flight young player you're probably more inclined to root for specific players you admire than you are to really catch the team-specific allegiance we have.

I'm not disagreeing with you - but I was just going off the memory of this draft day video:

http://youtu.be/e5pNdiPjv4g
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: wnc096 on February 08, 2015, 01:44:26 PM
Quote
“It’s pretty crazy to even think about,” McDavid said, referring to the possibility of being a Leaf one day. “But that would be an absolute dream come true.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/07/mcdavid-says-being-a-leaf-would-be-a-dream-come-true

MAKE IT HAPPEN NHL

Add Mcdavid to list of players who say it's their dream to play for toronto,  but will never actually do it.  Stamkos, Tavares, Seigin...at least Clarkson got to live his dream.  For another FIVE years
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 08, 2015, 06:52:54 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you - but I was just going off the memory of this draft day video:

http://youtu.be/e5pNdiPjv4g

Sorry, I probably phrased my post poorly. I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I was just throwing it out there that someone like Duchene was probably an Avs fan despite growing up in Ontario because when he was a young, presumably exceptional hockey player the Avs were the team to watch because they had guys like Sakic and Forsberg and so on.

I might be reading too much into it but I think when you're someone like Duchene and you're, as a young player, probably playing on a bunch of different select and all-star teams and really being singled out for your own individual talent the idea of the sort of allegiance we have to a team, whether they're good or bad, might be a little counter-intuitive.

Anyways, just philosophizing. Not arguing.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Kaberle15 on February 09, 2015, 06:53:30 AM
Can't lose all!

And the only way they will win the lottery is if they somehow decide to move the 1st rounder for a "quick" fix...  :o
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 09, 2015, 09:29:10 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you - but I was just going off the memory of this draft day video:

http://youtu.be/e5pNdiPjv4g

Sorry, I probably phrased my post poorly. I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I was just throwing it out there that someone like Duchene was probably an Avs fan despite growing up in Ontario because when he was a young, presumably exceptional hockey player the Avs were the team to watch because they had guys like Sakic and Forsberg and so on.

I might be reading too much into it but I think when you're someone like Duchene and you're, as a young player, probably playing on a bunch of different select and all-star teams and really being singled out for your own individual talent the idea of the sort of allegiance we have to a team, whether they're good or bad, might be a little counter-intuitive.

Anyways, just philosophizing. Not arguing.

I disagree, I think you are arguing.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 09, 2015, 09:34:10 AM
I disagree, I think you are arguing.

Oh. Did I win?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 09, 2015, 12:37:30 PM
I call it a draw..next 8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 09, 2015, 12:56:59 PM
I disagree, I think you are arguing.

Oh. Did I win?

But of course.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2015, 08:51:09 AM
An iffy night in the Tank Race. Columbus and New Jersey failed to pick up points, with the Devils losing to Edmonton. That doesn't really help as Edmonton has a bottom-2 finish locked up. Arizona picked up 2 points though and are now 3 back of the Leafs, with GP evened up.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 10, 2015, 09:01:18 AM
An iffy night in the Tank Race. Columbus and New Jersey failed to pick up points, with the Devils losing to Edmonton. That doesn't really help as Edmonton has a bottom-2 finish locked up. Arizona picked up 2 points though and are now 3 back of the Leafs, with GP evened up.

CAR not far off the Leafs win% either. 3rd overall looking possible all of a sudden...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2015, 09:06:02 AM
CAR not far off the Leafs win% either. 3rd overall looking possible all of a sudden...

Yeah you're right. 5 points back but Carolina has 2 games in hand. They're 6-2-2 in the last 10 while the Leafs are 1-8-1. Neither of those trends will keep up for the rest of the season but if they continue for just a little longer it could put us in that race.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 10, 2015, 10:15:55 AM
u forget, the Loafs are a streak team, about to win 7 in a row.  :'(
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 10, 2015, 12:20:20 PM
Can't U just feel the trades a coming?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 10, 2015, 01:04:17 PM
CAR not far off the Leafs win% either. 3rd overall looking possible all of a sudden...

Yeah you're right. 5 points back but Carolina has 2 games in hand. They're 6-2-2 in the last 10 while the Leafs are 1-8-1. Neither of those trends will keep up for the rest of the season but if they continue for just a little longer it could put us in that race.

I'm really feeling like a top 5 is likely, hopefully closer to the 3 spot.  I sort of feel like we're trying to outrace a train - guys like Franson, Winnick and Santorelli need to get shipped out before this team has a chance to go on a streak.  The collective will of the team needs to be crushed... and quickly.   :-\
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 10, 2015, 01:13:21 PM
CAR not far off the Leafs win% either. 3rd overall looking possible all of a sudden...

Yeah you're right. 5 points back but Carolina has 2 games in hand. They're 6-2-2 in the last 10 while the Leafs are 1-8-1. Neither of those trends will keep up for the rest of the season but if they continue for just a little longer it could put us in that race.

I'm really feeling like a top 5 is likely, hopefully closer to the 3 spot.  I sort of feel like we're trying to outrace a train - guys like Franson, Winnick and Santorelli need to get shipped out before this team has a chance to go on a streak.  The collective will of the team needs to be crushed... and quickly.   :-\

No professional team will go out to lose on purpose. (I think they lose draft picks if they were caught doing so) If the team wins so be it, then winning the draft pick was not meant to be.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 01:19:53 PM
I know they say that the draft is a crapshoot... but I was just looking at some past drafts, and I didn't realize just HOW terrible the leafs were at drafting...

Ignoring all the traded draft picks, the Leafs managed to trade NO NHL talent over 4 drafts...

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2002e.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2003e.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2004e.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2005e.html

and all the ones that were worth anything are gone!

I mean, I knew they were not good, but that's just ridiculous...

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 10, 2015, 01:22:15 PM
CAR not far off the Leafs win% either. 3rd overall looking possible all of a sudden...

Yeah you're right. 5 points back but Carolina has 2 games in hand. They're 6-2-2 in the last 10 while the Leafs are 1-8-1. Neither of those trends will keep up for the rest of the season but if they continue for just a little longer it could put us in that race.

I'm really feeling like a top 5 is likely, hopefully closer to the 3 spot.  I sort of feel like we're trying to outrace a train - guys like Franson, Winnick and Santorelli need to get shipped out before this team has a chance to go on a streak.  The collective will of the team needs to be crushed... and quickly.   :-\

No professional team will go out to lose on purpose. (I think they lose draft picks if they were caught doing so) If the team wins so be it, then winning the draft pick was not meant to be.

I'm not saying the team should make a decision to lose, I'm saying I hope they move out a bunch of guys before they have a chance to start winning.  And I don't really believe where they draft is a matter of fate.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2015, 01:31:33 PM
I know they say that the draft is a crapshoot... but I was just looking at some past drafts, and I didn't realize just HOW terrible the leafs were at drafting...

Ignoring all the traded draft picks, the Leafs managed to trade NO NHL talent over 4 drafts...

Rask, Steen, Stralman, Stajan, White. One franchise goalie, one top line forward, one top pairing defenceman, and then two serviceable NHLers who played 700 and 500 plus NHL games respectively. I know you said ignoring picks that were traded but that's not really fair if you're just judging the scouting teams. With that said, '03 and '04 were obviously two massive failures.

edit: Christ, John Mitchell has almost played 400 NHL games. So at least something came out of the '03 draft too. Nothing to jump up and down about but I'd take it out of the "massive failure" category.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2015, 01:44:20 PM
No professional team will go out to lose on purpose.

Further to what LuncheonMeat said, that's also just not true. Professional athletes definitely wouldn't go out to lose on purpose, but literally 0 people are suggesting that. Their front offices would and have definitely gone out of their way to ensure a good draft pick.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Peter D. on February 10, 2015, 01:50:21 PM
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2002e.html

If we could go back and have the 2002 draft re-done, and knowing what we know today, should the Leafs still draft Alex Steen or should they take Cam Ward?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 10, 2015, 01:50:33 PM
No professional team will go out to lose on purpose.

Further to what LuncheonMeat said, that's also just not true. Professional athletes definitely wouldn't go out to lose on purpose, but literally 0 people are suggesting that. Their front offices would and have definitely gone out of their way to ensure a good draft pick.

I understand that everyone on this tread wants the team to lose. (I understand the theory) I happily watch them beat the Oiler's on Saturday and I enjoyed it. I secretly want more of that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 01:55:05 PM
I know they say that the draft is a crapshoot... but I was just looking at some past drafts, and I didn't realize just HOW terrible the leafs were at drafting...

Ignoring all the traded draft picks, the Leafs managed to trade NO NHL talent over 4 drafts...

Rask, Steen, Stralman, Stajan, White. One franchise goalie, one top line forward, one top pairing defenceman, and then two serviceable NHLers who played 700 and 500 plus NHL games respectively. I know you said ignoring picks that were traded but that's not really fair if you're just judging the scouting teams. With that said, '03 and '04 were obviously two massive failures.

edit: Christ, John Mitchell has almost played 400 NHL games. So at least something came out of the '03 draft too. Nothing to jump up and down about but I'd take it out of the "massive failure" category.


I should have phrased it better. But all the legit NHL talent is gone. Not a single NHL player remains from those drafts with the Leafs.

What's the return that the leafs have for the traded players? I think as of right now it's only Phaneuf...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 10, 2015, 01:55:13 PM
No professional team will go out to lose on purpose.

Further to what LuncheonMeat said, that's also just not true. Professional athletes definitely wouldn't go out to lose on purpose, but literally 0 people are suggesting that. Their front offices would and have definitely gone out of their way to ensure a good draft pick.

I understand that everyone on this tread wants the team to lose. (I understand the theory) I happily watch them beat the Oiler's on Saturday and I enjoyed it. I secretly want more of that.

I always view it as this:  I'd rather they either make the playoffs or get as high a draft pick as possible.  Me?  I cannot control either outcome, so when the game starts, I still enjoy them playing well and making good plays and get excited when they score.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2015, 01:56:24 PM
I should have phrased it better. But all the legit NHL talent is gone. Not a single NHL player remains from those drafts with the Leafs.

What's the return that the leafs have for the traded players? I think as of right now it's only Phaneuf...

And this I definitely agree with. But your original beef was with the amateur scouting staff when it should have been with the GMs + other front office people who foolishly traded away some pretty good draft selections.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 02:01:32 PM
I should have phrased it better. But all the legit NHL talent is gone. Not a single NHL player remains from those drafts with the Leafs.

What's the return that the leafs have for the traded players? I think as of right now it's only Phaneuf...

And this I definitely agree with. But your original beef was with the amateur scouting staff when it should have been with the GMs + other front office people who foolishly traded away some pretty good draft selections.

You're right... phrasing!!

Still though - it's kind of a combination of both...

For example, I wish I knew what it was about John Doherty that made them think he was worth a second round pick, because looking at the stats, I don't get it. Obviously there's more to it than that... but still, it would be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 10, 2015, 02:04:40 PM
For example, I wish I knew what it was about John Doherty that made them think he was worth a second round pick, because looking at the stats, I don't get it. Obviously there's more to it than that... but still, it would be interesting to know.

Yeah that was the worst. I remember that he was a really, really big kid and Trapp (I think it was him at the time) wouldn't shut up about how raw he was as a player and how much potential he had. It really seemed like they just found a big guy who could skate and assumed everything else would come after.

I remember when Roman Kukumberg was drafted too they suggested that he might be NHL ready because he was in his early 20s when he was picked.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 10, 2015, 02:09:09 PM
For example, I wish I knew what it was about John Doherty that made them think he was worth a second round pick, because looking at the stats, I don't get it. Obviously there's more to it than that... but still, it would be interesting to know.

Yeah that was the worst. I remember that he was a really, really big kid and Trapp (I think it was him at the time) wouldn't shut up about how raw he was as a player and how much potential he had. It really seemed like they just found a big guy who could skate and assumed everything else would come after.

I remember when Roman Kukumberg was drafted too they suggested that he might be NHL ready because he was in his early 20s when he was picked.

Who?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 10, 2015, 02:09:41 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 10, 2015, 02:11:33 PM
I always view it as this:  I'd rather they either make the playoffs or get as high a draft pick as possible.  Me?  I cannot control either outcome, so when the game starts, I still enjoy them playing well and making good plays and get excited when they score.

That's where I'm at, too. I either want them to be a clear playoff team or a clear basement team. Being in between doesn't really do much to help them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 02:53:27 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 10, 2015, 03:01:57 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 03:10:52 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

I've since clarified that I meant asset mismanagement - you know I'm not someone who is trying to generalize or gloss over facts...

The leafs mishandled their assets over that time period - I'm not way off base on that assertion...

And again, I highlighted one pick as an example, not as a generalization.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 10, 2015, 03:15:02 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

I've since clarified that I meant asset mismanagement - you know I'm not someone who is trying to generalize or gloss over facts...

The leafs mishandled their assets over that time period - I'm not way off base on that assertion...

And again, I highlighted one pick as an example, not as a generalization.

I know, and that's fair enough.  I just think it completely changes what the criticism is.  But I trust that's what you meant to get across, and it's hard to argue.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 10, 2015, 03:25:57 PM
If you want to see a real "swing and a miss" from 2003, the Rangers first round pick, Hugh Jessimen...at #12 played a grand total of 2 NHL games.

It's always fun to look back at old drafts. For overall ineptness, it would be tough to top the Leafs 1999 class...9 selections (led by Luca Cereda) who played a total of 3 NHL games. 1996 would have rivaled that (with #1 pick Marek Posmyk) except for the hidden gem at @204 (Kaberle).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 10, 2015, 03:29:31 PM
If you want to see a real "swing and a miss" from 2003, the Rangers first round pick, Hugh Jessimen...at #12 played a grand total of 2 NHL games.

It's always fun to look back at old drafts. For overall ineptness, it would be tough to top the Leafs 1999 class...9 selections (led by Luca Cereda) who played a total of 3 NHL games. 1996 would have rivaled that (with #1 pick Marek Posmyk) except for the hidden gem at @204 (Kaberle).

Always sucked what happened with Cereda, diagnosed with a congenital heart defect not long after he was drafted.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 10, 2015, 03:34:19 PM
Yeah, I don't know if he would have been an impact player otherwise.

As for Kukemberg, at least he wasn't taken until the 4th round. Still, the Leafs could have had Ryan Callahan, who was taken 13 picks later.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: caveman on February 10, 2015, 03:41:01 PM
I always view it as this:  I'd rather they either make the playoffs or get as high a draft pick as possible.  Me?  I cannot control either outcome, so when the game starts, I still enjoy them playing well and making good plays and get excited when they score.

That's where I'm at, too. I either want them to be a clear playoff team or a clear basement team. Being in between doesn't really do much to help them.

X3.... it's like groundhog day with this team....over and over...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 03:42:57 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

I've since clarified that I meant asset mismanagement - you know I'm not someone who is trying to generalize or gloss over facts...

The leafs mishandled their assets over that time period - I'm not way off base on that assertion...

And again, I highlighted one pick as an example, not as a generalization.

I know, and that's fair enough.  I just think it completely changes what the criticism is.  But I trust that's what you meant to get across, and it's hard to argue.

also - I should point out that I wrote all this while I was on a conference call - so my attention was kind... of ... divided!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 10, 2015, 03:44:59 PM
Obviously 2003 was really bad (and the worst draft to not have a 1st/make a poor 2nd round selection in) but it's a bit of cherry-picking to take that draft and say that they've drafted terribly in recent memory.  The picks they've made haven't been amazing or terrible but they've found some quality players with later picks.  All teams have missteps at the draft, it's the nature of the beast.

I didn't really cherry pick - I brought up 4 drafts - and it's a bad combination of asset mismanagement and poor picks - in retrospect...

I'm sure we could find other teams with a similar stretch of incompetence - but I kinda don't care about the other teams.

Well you picked 4 drafts, eliminated all of their best picks because they were subsequently dealt and then criticized the Leafs' for being terrible at drafting.  And then the example of a draft pick you provided was Doherty, a bad 2nd round pick from arguably their worst draft performance in 20 years.  That one was very bad, but generally they haven't been terrible at drafting.

But I think CtB covered the major points already.

I've since clarified that I meant asset mismanagement - you know I'm not someone who is trying to generalize or gloss over facts...

The leafs mishandled their assets over that time period - I'm not way off base on that assertion...

And again, I highlighted one pick as an example, not as a generalization.

I know, and that's fair enough.  I just think it completely changes what the criticism is.  But I trust that's what you meant to get across, and it's hard to argue.

also - I should point out that I wrote all this while I was on a conference call - so my attention was kind... of ... divided!

Come on man, prioritize! Tmlfans first, then work.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 10, 2015, 03:49:38 PM

Come on man, prioritize! Tmlfans first, then work.

I know... I know.. I Clarksoned the forum.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on February 10, 2015, 04:53:45 PM
I'm starting to wonder if the Leafs brass really have the stomach to go through a proper teardown / rebuild - that's a lot of $$$ and corporate sponsorship to gamble with. Aside from Dregger and those puppets doing their best to overvalue some very marginal players on a very bad hockey team has their been any kind of indication from management that they're finally going to blow it up?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 10, 2015, 06:15:45 PM
I'm starting to wonder if the Leafs brass really have the stomach to go through a proper teardown / rebuild - that's a lot of $$$ and corporate sponsorship to gamble with. Aside from Dregger and those puppets doing their best to overvalue some very marginal players on a very bad hockey team has their been any kind of indication from management that they're finally going to blow it up?

No. Just speculation.

When you talk about gambling with corporate sponsorship/dollars, I think its safe to say they've been doing that for years.

I would think gutting the team now would be the easiest gamble to take and have the least amount of risk compared to any other viable option.

I think it would be a hell of a lot more risky to trade away all the youth for aging veterans, for instance, wouldn't you?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: lamajama on February 10, 2015, 06:48:41 PM
If MLSE doesn't decide to go for a complete rebuild then they have finally lost me after 50
years as a fan.

There is no logical way on God's green earth that they are going to be able to do anything
other than squeak in a last playoff spot and then go one round - possibly.

This alone should be enough to prove to Bell and Rogers that their investment is poop -
and Rogers has a 12 year NHL deal that swings on the Leafs being good.

The dollars in merch and ratings (and thus adverts etc) for a winning team in TO would
be astronomical - even more so if they actually built a team that could contend for a
long period of time.

Take the punch to the groin for 3-4 years and do it right.

Also.....fire/demote Nonis. You can't entrust the guy that created most of this mess to clean it up.

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on February 11, 2015, 04:26:55 AM
I think we should bring Bibeau and Gibson up on an alternating pattern to let them get used to being in the NHL environment and start them when possible.....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 11, 2015, 10:43:03 AM
It will have to happen as one of Bernier or Riemer will soon be history.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 11, 2015, 10:49:31 AM
4-19-1, guys. 4-19-1. That's how you tank!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 11, 2015, 10:53:36 AM
If nothing else it is going to be an interesting season if only to view the troop movments out and the draft picks in  and how many of these players will wear Blue and White next season, whether Nonis will be fired and who the new coach will be.
It can't get any worse than this, or can it?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 11, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
No Boyd Devereaux hat trick can stop this tank.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 11, 2015, 11:13:52 AM
To do this tank properly, they should probably be increasing Kessel's minutes instead of decreasing them. 13 minutes/-4, increase that to 23 minutes and you could potentially have -7.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 11, 2015, 12:08:06 PM
To do this tank properly, they should probably be increasing Kessel's minutes instead of decreasing them. 13 minutes/-4, increase that to 23 minutes and you could potentially have -7.

LOL!   ;D
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 11, 2015, 01:50:09 PM
To do this tank properly, they should probably be increasing Kessel's minutes instead of decreasing them. 13 minutes/-4, increase that to 23 minutes and you could potentially have -7.

I think they should dress him as a D-man.  He does have a right-handed shot after all.

Man I hope they start moving guys before they all get (more) injured.  I'm starting to worry about that more than anything else.  With NYI starting to fortify, hopefully people will start to move now.   :-\

Where is that toppling domino pic go??? 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 11, 2015, 02:03:19 PM
If MLSE doesn't decide to go for a complete rebuild then they have finally lost me after 50
years as a fan.

There is no logical way on God's green earth that they are going to be able to do anything
other than squeak in a last playoff spot and then go one round - possibly.

This alone should be enough to prove to Bell and Rogers that their investment is poop -
and Rogers has a 12 year NHL deal that swings on the Leafs being good.

The dollars in merch and ratings (and thus adverts etc) for a winning team in TO would
be astronomical - even more so if they actually built a team that could contend for a
long period of time.

Take the punch to the groin for 3-4 years and do it right.

Also.....fire/demote Nonis. You can't entrust the guy that created most of this mess to clean it up.
I'm with you, I never missed a game but this year I have tuned them out and actually only like to watch them when their loosing hoping to see a shower of jerseys and boos. I believe there are a large portion of fans who are starting to tune them out for the first time ever. Things absolutely need to be rebuilt properly there really will be consequences to MLSE if they don't.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 11, 2015, 02:06:23 PM
4-19-1, guys. 4-19-1. That's how you tank!
We could not possibly of asked for more...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 11, 2015, 03:17:18 PM
4-19-1, guys. 4-19-1. That's how you tank!
We could not possibly of asked for more...

Well 1-22-1 would have been good.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 11, 2015, 03:18:52 PM
4-19-1, guys. 4-19-1. That's how you tank!

It's pretty nuts that not too long ago we were talking about drafting 10th-12th. The team really pulled through here.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 11, 2015, 03:19:26 PM
4-19-1, guys. 4-19-1. That's how you tank!

It's pretty nuts that not too long ago we were talking about drafting 10th-12th. The team really pulled through here.

Goes to show that there is a lot of heart on the roster and a lot of guys who want to see this team improve.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 11, 2015, 03:23:45 PM
It's pretty nuts that not too long ago we were talking about drafting 10th-12th. The team really pulled through here.

Yeah. This isn't even a small slump we're talking about. That's 30% of the season. Take out the 10-1-1 streak they had, and they're 13-27-3. This stretch is pretty representative of what this team actually is.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 11, 2015, 03:25:05 PM
4-19-1, guys. 4-19-1. That's how you tank!

It's pretty nuts that not too long ago we were talking about drafting 10th-12th. The team really pulled through here.

Goes to show that there is a lot of heart on the roster and a lot of guys who want to see this team improve.

It's really too bad we'll have to trade them all. That'll be hard for players and fans alike.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 11, 2015, 03:34:51 PM
It's pretty nuts that not too long ago we were talking about drafting 10th-12th. The team really pulled through here.

Yeah. This isn't even a small slump we're talking about. That's 30% of the season. Take out the 10-1-1 streak they had, and they're 13-27-3. This stretch is pretty representative of what this team actually is.

Which would have them on a more tank-worthy 55-point pace.  Much better than the torrid 74-point pace they're on now.   8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 11, 2015, 03:46:11 PM
With the trade Buffalo will win the tank. Bastado's
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 11, 2015, 08:07:02 PM
Looks like the tank is getting a maintenance day today with only good teams playing tonight.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on February 12, 2015, 08:57:21 AM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2015, 09:06:15 AM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

Interesting. I wonder how much winning the lottery would change that. I could get behind a slow rebuild, but McDavid would definitely be able to accelerate those plans by quite a bit.

But it's fun to think about what a full-blown rebuild could bring this team. Start with a core of Rielly, Nylander, Gardiner, Kadri, JVR. Add top-5 draft picks this season and probably next season. Add an elite prospect from a Kessel trade. Plus returns of varying values from Franson, Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak. We're definitely talking about a lot of futures and unknowns there but that's not too shabby.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rob on February 12, 2015, 09:11:48 AM
ALL ABOARD!  NEXT STOP, TANKTOWN!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 12, 2015, 09:49:22 AM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

Interesting. I wonder how much winning the lottery would change that. I could get behind a slow rebuild, but McDavid would definitely be able to accelerate those plans by quite a bit.

But it's fun to think about what a full-blown rebuild could bring this team. Start with a core of Rielly, Nylander, Gardiner, Kadri, JVR. Add top-5 draft picks this season and probably next season. Add an elite prospect from a Kessel trade. Plus returns of varying values from Franson, Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak. We're definitely talking about a lot of futures and unknowns there but that's not too shabby.

I want to believe the article but I'm really weary of journalists not named Mirtle...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sneakyray on February 12, 2015, 09:51:08 AM
best case scenario for everyone involved...leafs win the draft lottery.

Mcdavid to the leafs
eichel to the sabres

same division and theres your next generation ovie/crosby thing

would be pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Sarge on February 12, 2015, 09:52:48 AM
Hey guys.  Long time, no talk. How are you enjoying the season  so far? :P

Seriously though. Chin up. A legitimate rebuild can be fun too. Let's see what happenes.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2015, 09:56:14 AM
I want to believe the article but I'm really weary of journalists not named Mirtle...

I'm pretty sure Cathal Kelly lives in Leiweke's basement, so while he's a crappy writer and journalist that particular information is probably correct.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 12, 2015, 10:11:21 AM
I want to believe the article but I'm really weary of journalists not named Mirtle...

I'm pretty sure Cathal Kelly lives in Leiweke's basement, so while he's a crappy writer and journalist that particular information is probably correct.

He writes in the piece that Nonis knew they were icing a team that was bad and couldn't sustain their play.  Kind of goes against all the moves Nonis made/tried to make.  Tried to sign Bolland, tried to trade for Gorges, signed Robidas, said he thought they were in the mix for playoffs, etc.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2015, 10:21:52 AM
He writes in the piece that Nonis knew they were icing a team that was bad and couldn't sustain their play.  Kind of goes against all the moves Nonis made/tried to make.  Tried to sign Bolland, tried to trade for Gorges, signed Robidas, said he thought they were in the mix for playoffs, etc.

Right, and that's where the "crappy writer and journalist" part comes from. In return for access into what goes on in the boardroom he has to write stuff like that. He's pretty much the Darren Dreger of print journalists.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Kaberle15 on February 12, 2015, 10:28:05 AM
Berger talks about a possible Kessel to Nashville...

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2015, 10:33:53 AM
Berger talks about a possible Kessel to Nashville...



Nashville's been a suggested trade target for Phil for awhile now. Also Howard hasn't really been relevant for like almost a decade now, I wouldn't put any stock into what he says.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 12, 2015, 10:38:27 AM
Berger talks about a possible Kessel to Nashville...
(1) Kessel + Gardiner for Jones + anything
(2) Reilly / Jones become super dominant
(3) fix rest of team
(4) Cup!   :D
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 10:39:06 AM
"It may not feel like it right now, but this is a good thing. This, right here, may be the most realistically hopeful time to be a Toronto Maple Leafs fan in a generation."

Those two sentences sum up my feelings pretty well, whether or not the details in the article (such as the comments about Nonis) are accurate.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 10:40:44 AM
Yes Phil is in a funk, the team is a mess. Give him Mcdavid or Eishel to play with. It is my firm belief you don't trade away the best (one of the best) pure sniper in the league (ever).
They have enough other assests to assist in a rebuild.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 12, 2015, 10:47:14 AM
Berger talks about a possible Kessel to Nashville...

Berger talks about a lot of things. Very few of them actually happen. He's up there with Bill Watters in terms of being a has-been. Just not relevant or connected anymore.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 12, 2015, 10:54:23 AM
Berger talks about a possible Kessel to Nashville...

Berger talks about a lot of things. Very few of them actually happen. He's up there with Bill Watters in terms of being a has-been. Just not relevant or connected anymore.

I mostly like Bergers articles. He losses me when he says a 'little bird whispered in his ear' though. He also lost me in the Phil to Nashville blog when he gets into what the Leafs would get in return.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 10:54:54 AM
I can understand possibly keeping Kessel if the team can find a center for him. In that case I think you get rid of everyone else (Phaneuf, Bozak, JVR, Lupul, etc). Kessel has the kind of offensive talent that you rarely find. What I don't understand is why he goes into such prolonged funks. Is it his personality, is he lazy/out of shape? Is it that the combination of him and his linemates makes it relatively easy to play against, something that could be corrected by finding the right center and LW for him?

That said, I wouldn't lose any sleep if he was traded. I just hope the second half of the season hasn't had too severe of an impact on that potential return.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 10:56:06 AM
I think Cathal Kelley is the finest sports writer in the T.O. scene and the best in a long while.
I can see the slant on Phaneuf but Kessel. Sorry but don't agree on that.
If he is dealt we need something spectacular.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 11:35:31 AM
What does Tampa Bay have that we want, can you imagine Kessel beside Stamkos, that would be deadly.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 12, 2015, 11:40:34 AM
What does Tampa Bay have that we want, can you imagine Kessel beside Stamkos, that would be deadly.

Stamkos
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 12, 2015, 11:40:52 AM
ALL ABOARD!  NEXT STOP, TANKTOWN!

I'm already here if you guys want to call in your drink orders.   8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 12, 2015, 11:49:36 AM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

Interesting. I wonder how much winning the lottery would change that. I could get behind a slow rebuild, but McDavid would definitely be able to accelerate those plans by quite a bit.

But it's fun to think about what a full-blown rebuild could bring this team. Start with a core of Rielly, Nylander, Gardiner, Kadri, JVR. Add top-5 draft picks this season and probably next season. Add an elite prospect from a Kessel trade. Plus returns of varying values from Franson, Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak. We're definitely talking about a lot of futures and unknowns there but that's not too shabby.

Although they're not top-line players, I wonder how much potential lies with Holland and Panik.  They're both only 24 years old, and I think they could be really solid, low $$ players that will probably continue to develop.  With a bunch of big contracts gone, and a bunch of assets over the next 2 years, things could start to look pretty good.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2015, 11:52:21 AM
Although they're not top-line players, I wonder how much potential lies with Holland and Panik.  They're both only 24 years old, and I think they could be really solid, low $$ players that will probably continue to develop.  With a bunch of big contracts gone, and a bunch of assets over the next 2 years, things could start to look pretty good.

They're young, cheap, and should be decent-to-good 2nd or 3rd line players. You need to have those types of guys around regardless of if you're competing or rebuilding.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 11:58:04 AM
CTB, funny I was thinking the same thing. So Stamkos and Kessel on our first line, dangerous. But whom do they want that we have.  Lets see:  Rielly, JVR, Gardiner and a 1st???
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 12, 2015, 11:59:32 AM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 12, 2015, 12:00:22 PM
CTB, funny I was thinking the same thing. So Stamkos and Kessel on our first line, dangerous. But whom do they want that we have.  Lets see:  Rielly, JVR, Gardiner and a 1st???

That's a start, and then I would add Nylander and another (lottery pick) first.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 12, 2015, 12:01:09 PM
I want to believe the article but I'm really weary of journalists not named Mirtle...

I'm pretty sure Cathal Kelly lives in Leiweke's basement, so while he's a crappy writer and journalist that particular information is probably correct.

He writes in the piece that Nonis knew they were icing a team that was bad and couldn't sustain their play.  Kind of goes against all the moves Nonis made/tried to make.  Tried to sign Bolland, tried to trade for Gorges, signed Robidas, said he thought they were in the mix for playoffs, etc.

Yeah, there's lots in that article that doesn't pass the smell test, much as I would like to believe in all of it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 12:03:33 PM
CTB, funny I was thinking the same thing. So Stamkos and Kessel on our first line, dangerous. But whom do they want that we have.  Lets see:  Rielly, JVR, Gardiner and a 1st???

That's a start, and then I would add Nylander and another (lottery pick) first.

And then they'd probably tell you that they're actually trying to sell the sport down there and trading away the best player on a cup contender for a bunch of young players and prospects isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 12, 2015, 12:06:03 PM
CTB, funny I was thinking the same thing. So Stamkos and Kessel on our first line, dangerous. But whom do they want that we have.  Lets see:  Rielly, JVR, Gardiner and a 1st???

When did I say anything about Stamkos?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 12, 2015, 12:15:47 PM
CTB, funny I was thinking the same thing. So Stamkos and Kessel on our first line, dangerous. But whom do they want that we have.  Lets see:  Rielly, JVR, Gardiner and a 1st???

That's a start, and then I would add Nylander and another (lottery pick) first.

And then they'd probably tell you that they're actually trying to sell the sport down there and trading away the best player on a cup contender for a bunch of young players and prospects isn't going to happen.

Unless, in the words of Burger, a little birdy told them that he's fleeing the coup when he hits UFA.

(I don't think that'll happen fyi, they'll give him a blank cheque no doubt.)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 12:20:38 PM
Unless, in the words of Burger, a little birdy told them that he's fleeing the coup when he hits UFA.

(I don't think that'll happen fyi, they'll give him a blank cheque no doubt.)

Maybe, although I think that might be the sort of thing we might think because the Leafs don't have to sell tickets and as a result we can look at every player move in a dispassionate, transactional way where maximizing asset value is the only consideration. Like, if I own the Lightning and there's a legitimate chance they could win the cup in the next two years before Stamkos' contract expires I might be inclined to take those chances regardless.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 12:25:16 PM
CTB you didn't only pointed out that the only player we wanted from Tampa was Steve S.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: louisstamos on February 12, 2015, 12:27:17 PM
CTB you didn't only pointed out that the only player we wanted from Tampa was Steve S.

That wasn't CTB, that was Crucialness Key.

(they also have Drouin and Tyler Johnson, both of whom I'd covet...)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 12, 2015, 12:31:04 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.
Great article!

Let us all pray that we have finally hit the friggin bottom and that a commitment to a legitimate rebuild has happened. Last place is not the bottom, 9th annually is the bottom.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 12, 2015, 12:31:51 PM
That wasn't CTB, that was Crucialness Key.

(they also have Drouin and Tyler Johnson, both of whom I'd covet...)

They have a few good young players/prospects that would be nice pieces to get in return. Kucherov, Namestnikov, Palat, Vasilevskiy and DeAngelo are all guys I'd be asking about if the teams were discussing a Kessel trade.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 12, 2015, 12:36:13 PM
Here's my ridiculous 7 degrees of separation source from Stamkos: my sister in law's sister knows Stamkos and she asked him he would play in Toronto and he said "#@%! no". To much attention apparently.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 12, 2015, 12:43:57 PM
That wasn't CTB, that was Crucialness Key.

(they also have Drouin and Tyler Johnson, both of whom I'd covet...)

They have a few good young players/prospects that would be nice pieces to get in return. Kucherov, Namestnikov, Palat, Vasilevskiy and DeAngelo are all guys I'd be asking about if the teams were discussing a Kessel trade.

Well sure, if we're taking the question seriously, then that's all true.

Sincerely,
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 12, 2015, 01:08:45 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 01:11:05 PM
Then f___k Steve S. If you want a really invisible career play in Florida. We need T.O. Boys that want to be Leafs and make them great.
The Shanaplan will not tolerate losing, out of the ashes the Phoenix (not the Yotes) will arise.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 12, 2015, 01:11:54 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

Unfortunately hockey players are shockingly not robots and do experience human emotion.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 01:13:51 PM
That is why Waffle Bott will never wear Blue and White
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 01:15:26 PM
Then f___k Steve S. If you want a really invisible career play in Florida. We need T.O. Boys that want to be Leafs and make them great.

Yeah, that seems like a pretty reasonable reaction to broken telephone gossip.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 12, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

Unfortunately hockey players are shockingly not robots and do experience human emotion.

No I know they have human emotion. That being said, they play a game for a living. That is why I don't feel bad for them. I am sure it is emotionally exhausting for Clarkson, who goes home to multi-million dollar house nightly while not on the road. I guess it is a bit of Jealously on my part.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 01:21:51 PM
No I know they have human emotion. That being said, they play a game for a living. That is why I don't feel bad for them. I am sure it is emotionally exhausting for Clarkson, who goes home to multi-million dollar house nightly while not on the road. I guess it is a bit of Jealously on my part.

Dude, you're posting on the internet at 1 in the afternoon on a Thursday. None of us are digging coal exactly.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 12, 2015, 01:25:04 PM
No I know they have human emotion. That being said, they play a game for a living. That is why I don't feel bad for them. I am sure it is emotionally exhausting for Clarkson, who goes home to multi-million dollar house nightly while not on the road. I guess it is a bit of Jealously on my part.

Dude, you're posting on the internet at 1 in the afternoon on a Thursday. None of us are digging coal exactly.

LOL, Nope you are correct. I don't see many of us earning 4.5 mil dollars a year either.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 12, 2015, 01:32:43 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

Unfortunately hockey players are shockingly not robots and do experience human emotion.

Except Clarkson. He's totally a robot.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 12, 2015, 01:46:16 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

Unfortunately hockey players are shockingly not robots and do experience human emotion.

Except Clarkson. He's totally a robot.

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 12, 2015, 01:54:00 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

Unfortunately hockey players are shockingly not robots and do experience human emotion.

Except Clarkson. He's totally a robot.

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

The people near my desk officially think I'm insane thanks to laughing and tearing up. Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 12, 2015, 01:56:28 PM
Hey Highlander, is Shanaplan now Shanatank?

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

And there is no end to this IF statement.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 12, 2015, 01:57:39 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

Unfortunately hockey players are shockingly not robots and do experience human emotion.

Except Clarkson. He's totally a robot.

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

You shouldn't use GOTO's...they are evil ;-).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 12, 2015, 02:07:11 PM
Hey Highlander, is Shanaplan now Shanatank?

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

And there is no end to this IF statement.

Would that technically put it into an endless loop?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 12, 2015, 02:08:19 PM

Except Clarkson. He's totally a robot.

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

You shouldn't use GOTO's...they are evil ;-).

I know but I never learned any real programming :-)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Crucialness Key on February 12, 2015, 02:12:58 PM
Hey Highlander, is Shanaplan now Shanatank?

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

And there is no end to this IF statement.

Would that technically put it into an endless loop?

Nah, just 7 years.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 02:18:22 PM
Hey Highlander, is Shanaplan now Shanatank?

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

And there is no end to this IF statement.

Would that technically put it into an endless loop?

Nah, just 7 years.

LOL, it just seems endless.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 02:21:58 PM
I'll tell you what, though - we're all bashing Clarkson but at least he stood there and talked to the media. You may not have liked his answers, but at least he didn't duck out like a certain someone else did.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 12, 2015, 02:26:17 PM
I'll tell you what, though - we're all bashing Clarkson but at least he stood there and talked to the media. You may not have liked his answers, but at least he didn't duck out like a certain someone else did.

So?  It's literally meaningless.  No one has yet to demonstrate any correlation between talking to the media and on-ice individual or team performance.  Clarkson could talk to the media until his hair turns gray for all I care.  It won't make him a better hockey player or better leader or better anything other than maybe a buddy to some reporters.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 02:36:55 PM
I'll tell you what, though - we're all bashing Clarkson but at least he stood there and talked to the media. You may not have liked his answers, but at least he didn't duck out like a certain someone else did.

So?  It's literally meaningless.  No one has yet to demonstrate any correlation between talking to the media and on-ice individual or team performance.  Clarkson could talk to the media until his hair turns gray for all I care.  It won't make him a better hockey player or better leader or better anything other than maybe a buddy to some reporters.

Maybe not, but I think it speaks to a persons character and that can have an effect on teammates.  I don't think it's meaningless but one can debate how important it may be.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 12, 2015, 02:41:55 PM
I'll tell you what, though - we're all bashing Clarkson but at least he stood there and talked to the media. You may not have liked his answers, but at least he didn't duck out like a certain someone else did.

There is plenty of literature out there that states that being open, honest and apologizing for your actions goes an extremely long way to adjusting the perception people have of you.  In my field it can mean the difference between a family demanding legal action (regardless of the actual justification for legal proceedings) and a cathartic sit down with resolution.

Outright ignoring something certainly doesn't end well but you know what ends up being the worst outcome?  Standing up and speaking around the issue and not taking accountability for your own actions.  That's what Clarkson did.  There is plenty of literature that actually supports that what Clarkson is doing is actually worse than what Kessel does.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 12, 2015, 02:46:25 PM
I'll tell you what, though - we're all bashing Clarkson but at least he stood there and talked to the media. You may not have liked his answers, but at least he didn't duck out like a certain someone else did.

So?  It's literally meaningless.  No one has yet to demonstrate any correlation between talking to the media and on-ice individual or team performance.  Clarkson could talk to the media until his hair turns gray for all I care.  It won't make him a better hockey player or better leader or better anything other than maybe a buddy to some reporters.

Maybe not, but I think it speaks to a persons character and that can have an effect on teammates.  I don't think it's meaningless but one can debate how important it may be.

How do you think speaking or not speaking with a reporter reflects a persons character?  If they're shy and uncomfortable speaking to reporters is that a knock on their character?  If they're angry at how they're portrayed and don't want to interact with those people, that's a knock on their character?  I'm familiar with a fairly well-known NFL player who either didn't talk to the media (or de facto did not speak with the media) who was one play away from a 2nd straight championship.

I just don't see the impact and it seems to me like it's a creation of a media desperate to stay relevant in the 21st century.

What have you read that makes you think it can have an effect on their teammates? 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 02:47:25 PM
LOL, OK, how about - they're both guilty, just in different ways.

Besides, what exactly is Clarkson supposed to say? "I suck and don't deserve the contract nor to be playing?" The problem with the team is much bigger and deeper than Clarkson. I maintain that one could easily have singled out Bozak or Kessel or even JVR for the benching. Clarkson may not be very good but to me at least, it doesn't look like lack of effort is the issue. Whereas for selected other players, lack of effort does appear to be a significant issue.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 12, 2015, 02:49:02 PM
LOL, OK, how about - they're both guilty, just in different ways.

Besides, what exactly is Clarkson supposed to say? "I suck and don't deserve the contract nor to be playing?" The problem with the team is much bigger and deeper than Clarkson. I maintain that one could easily have singled out Bozak or Kessel or even JVR for the benching. Clarkson may not be very good but to me at least, it doesn't look like lack of effort is the issue. Whereas for selected other players, lack of effort does appear to be a significant issue.

When asked about his benching, he could have talked about his recent shortcomings instead of the team's and by association, his teammates.

As LK said, if you're going to talk, take ownership, otherwise remaining silent is actually the better approach.

Nobody is saying what he said was untrue, they are saying that it is not the correct way to approach things.

"You know, I go out there every game and every practice and really give my all, unfortunately lately my form has escaped me, things that made me successful in the past have not come as easy. This break will give me a chance to see the game from a slightly different perspective and hopefully refocus my game. I view it as an opportunity of sorts. I want to get back to basics, coupled with the same effort I feel that I will be able to turn this around and help the team going forward."

Something along the lines of the generic BS I posted above would have been infinitely better.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 02:53:46 PM
There is plenty of literature out there that states that being open, honest and apologizing for your actions goes an extremely long way to adjusting the perception people have of you.  In my field it can mean the difference between a family demanding legal action (regardless of the actual justification for legal proceedings) and a cathartic sit down with resolution.

Outright ignoring something certainly doesn't end well but you know what ends up being the worst outcome?  Standing up and speaking around the issue and not taking accountability for your own actions.  That's what Clarkson did.  There is plenty of literature that actually supports that what Clarkson is doing is actually worse than what Kessel does.

To me though, that represents the difference between what you do and what these guys do. The worst thing that would come about with a media scrum is the media writing more articles about you. I would really question any literature that presented the case that what Clarkson did is tangibly worse as a hockey player, a field where 90% percent of what they say in public could be probably be guessed before it leaves their mouth.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on February 12, 2015, 02:53:58 PM
In the big scope of things I don't much care who talks to the media and who doesnt. For the most part they are rarely honest and always give the same canned answers. It is one of the reasons I always truly enjoyed listening to John Tortorella. When he answered he answered pationately.. Maybe have come of sounding like an ass but he was usually honest. Too many interviews are the same questions with the same canned repsonses..I am not interested in those
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 02:58:58 PM
In the big scope of things I don't much care who talks to the media and who doesnt. For the most part they are rarely honest and always give the same canned answers. It is one of the reasons I always truly enjoyed listening to John Tortorella. When he answered he answered pationately.. Maybe have come of sounding like an ass but he was usually honest. Too many interviews are the same questions with the same canned repsonses..I am not interested in those

I generally agree and certainly agree that whatever value there is in a player talking to the media it doesn't come from their insightful and forthright opinions usually but I do think there's something to be said for the fact that talking to the media is probably seen as a pain by more players and, as a result, it's probably best for the group dynamics for everyone to take their lumps.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 03:13:26 PM
Some good points. However, I don't agree with the "poor Phil is shy" argument. The guy plays in front of 20,000 in the stands and millions on television, and is getting paid $64 million to do so. You get over the shyness.

I don't have any studies to cite but in my opinion, it sends a message to teammates about accountability, and another message to teammates and fans that says "I don't give a crap and don't want to be here."
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 12, 2015, 03:18:12 PM
There is plenty of literature out there that states that being open, honest and apologizing for your actions goes an extremely long way to adjusting the perception people have of you.  In my field it can mean the difference between a family demanding legal action (regardless of the actual justification for legal proceedings) and a cathartic sit down with resolution.

Outright ignoring something certainly doesn't end well but you know what ends up being the worst outcome?  Standing up and speaking around the issue and not taking accountability for your own actions.  That's what Clarkson did.  There is plenty of literature that actually supports that what Clarkson is doing is actually worse than what Kessel does.

To me though, that represents the difference between what you do and what these guys do. The worst thing that would come about with a media scrum is the media writing more articles about you. I would really question any literature that presented the case that what Clarkson did is tangibly worse as a hockey player, a field where 90% percent of what they say in public could be probably be guessed before it leaves their mouth.

Not really though.  It's really all about perception and understanding.  Yes, the consequence of the outcomes are different but the literature isn't really being aimed at "Do you get sued, yes or no".  The focus is more on understanding.  And the target audience isn't so much the media in this situation but more then fans who take that information in.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 03:20:48 PM
Herman, in answer to your query, yes the Shanatank is part of the Shanaplan. Adjust, observe, tear down, rebuild with skill and care and expertise. Viola the  Shanaplan.  Tear down is the Shanatank part of the big picture. Man I love this site!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 12, 2015, 03:22:36 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.

Don't feel bad for them. These players earn more in one season then most of us do in a lifetime. Besides that it is a pure pleasure to play in the hockey mega of the world. I for one feel no sympathy for any of them.

I think we as fans need to take a significant step back from the "It's only Game, why you heff to be mad" angle.  It's really not just a game.  Playing beer league hockey at 1:00AM because that is the only ice-time you can get as a group of guys who can't skip work in the afternoon to play hockey is playing a game. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 12, 2015, 03:26:28 PM
Some good points. However, I don't agree with the "poor Phil is shy" argument. The guy plays in front of 20,000 in the stands and millions on television, and is getting paid $64 million to do so. You get over the shyness.

I've had conversations with people who have had direct interactions with Kessel as sports journalists, and I can tell you that Kessel is still extremely shy/awkward when it comes to giving interviews, and, like most athletes, all you really get out of him are canned answers. The only way to get him to say anything remotely interesting is to catch him off guard. The truth is, when it comes to Kessel, the media isn't all the interested in talking to him most of the time for this very reason. They really only try to approach him when either he or the team are struggling. That sort of naturally lends itself to an adversarial relationship.

Also, it's not as easy to get over shyness/awkwardness as you make it out to be. When Kessel's playing, he's not interacting directly with any of the people in the stands or the millions on TV. He can effectively tune them out. When it comes to giving interviews, he can't. It's a 1 on 1 situation, where he's dealing directly with someone and in a situation he's not comfortable with. The two situations are not comparable.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 03:28:16 PM
Not really though.  It's really all about perception and understanding.  Yes, the consequence of the outcomes are different but the literature isn't really being aimed at "Do you get sued, yes or no".  The focus is more on understanding.  And the target audience isn't so much the media in this situation but more then fans who take that information in.

Right but again, that's what's relatively unique about a hockey player's interactions with the media and as you say, us. As a fan I don't feel there is an expectation of understanding or a desire to really gain information from that in the way there is with just about any other human interaction.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 12, 2015, 03:28:35 PM
Besides, what exactly is Clarkson supposed to say? "I suck and don't deserve the contract nor to be playing?" The problem with the team is much bigger and deeper than Clarkson. I maintain that one could easily have singled out Bozak or Kessel or even JVR for the benching. Clarkson may not be very good but to me at least, it doesn't look like lack of effort is the issue. Whereas for selected other players, lack of effort does appear to be a significant issue.

When you're the one being singled out by your coach, maybe you can take a little responsibility for your part in that instead of brushing it off as a message to the team. It's not that hard to say "I haven't been good enough" or "I have to be better."
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 12, 2015, 03:35:17 PM
Some good points. However, I don't agree with the "poor Phil is shy" argument. The guy plays in front of 20,000 in the stands and millions on television, and is getting paid $64 million to do so. You get over the shyness.

I've had conversations with people who have had direct interactions with Kessel as sports journalists, and I can tell you that Kessel is still extremely shy/awkward when it comes to giving interviews, and, like most athletes, all you really get out of him are canned answers. The only way to get him to say anything remotely interesting is to catch him off guard. The truth is, when it comes to Kessel, the media isn't all the interested in talking to him most of the time for this very reason. They really only try to approach him when either he or the team are struggling. That sort of naturally lends itself to an adversarial relationship.

Also, it's not as easy to get over shyness/awkwardness as you make it out to be. When Kessel's playing, he's not interacting directly with any of the people in the stands or the millions on TV. He can effectively tune them out. When it comes to giving interviews, he can't. It's a 1 on 1 situation, where he's dealing directly with someone and in a situation he's not comfortable with. The two situations are not comparable.

As someone who's dealt with shyness/awkwardness, it was never an issue playing sports.  I could go out there and have fun and not think about it.  Never once felt nervous.  If I had to stand up in front of the class and talk?  Gave me anxiety, would become extremely nervous about it.

Maybe it's relate -able to a pro athlete, maybe it's not.  That's how it was for me though.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 12, 2015, 03:40:30 PM
It's a 1 on 1 situation, where he's dealing directly with someone and in a situation he's not comfortable with. The two situations are not comparable.

But I don't think Chris is saying it's easy. He's saying that it's something that comes with the territory and that ultimately it falls on Kessel to deal with that. You know, Kessel could have gotten a job in IT somewhere and never dealt with a media member in his life. To a less extreme example, he signed for 8 years in this city fully aware of what it's like.

And, if we're going to take larger lessons from it, the "Yeah, but it's Phil, what are you going to do?" attitude does kind of seem to invade every element of the discussion of Kessel and his imperfections.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2015, 03:43:07 PM
I've had conversations with people who have had direct interactions with Kessel as sports journalists, and I can tell you that Kessel is still extremely shy/awkward when it comes to giving interviews, and, like most athletes, all you really get out of him are canned answers. The only way to get him to say anything remotely interesting is to catch him off guard. The truth is, when it comes to Kessel, the media isn't all the interested in talking to him most of the time for this very reason. They really only try to approach him when either he or the team are struggling. That sort of naturally lends itself to an adversarial relationship.

Also, it's not as easy to get over shyness/awkwardness as you make it out to be. When Kessel's playing, he's not interacting directly with any of the people in the stands or the millions on TV. He can effectively tune them out. When it comes to giving interviews, he can't. It's a 1 on 1 situation, where he's dealing directly with someone and in a situation he's not comfortable with. The two situations are not comparable.

I know that it's not easy...you're talking (writing) to someone who was so shy growing up that I was known as the "kid who never said a word in class". Literally, I could go through a whole school year and never answer a question or say a word. Public speaking would tie my stomach up in knots to the point of sickness at times. This continued into college. Finally, when I got to grad school I was put in positions where I had to give talks at scientific conferences, to people who were experts in the field. Extremely difficult and I would be nervous as heck but I did it.

Now, some have phobic type reactions and that can be a different story...but for most people, the shyness can be overcome, at least to a degree.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 12, 2015, 03:48:00 PM
they say there are three main fears inherent in us:
The fear of Falling
The fear of Drowing
The fear of Public Speaking

I had a terrible fear of public speaking, when my job forced me into it, I acutally started to like it and now it is a bit of "when can I do this again"?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 12, 2015, 04:14:30 PM
That is why Waffle Bott will never wear Blue and White

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55852181.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 12, 2015, 04:38:54 PM

That is why Waffle Bott will never wear Blue and White

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55852181.jpg)

It's not date rape, so maybe lose the meme?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 12, 2015, 04:58:55 PM
they say there are three main fears inherent in us:
The fear of Falling
The fear of Drowing
The fear of Public Speaking

I had a terrible fear of public speaking, when my job forced me into it, I acutally started to like it and now it is a bit of "when can I do this again"?

The same can be said for falling and skydiving. You not only get over it once you jump the first time, most people want to do it again.

Drowning.... Well you got me there. 2 out of 3 ain't bad?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 12, 2015, 05:08:43 PM

It's not date rape, so maybe lose the meme?

Cliff Huxtable is a television character, not a real person.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: lamajama on February 12, 2015, 06:53:11 PM
Looks like MLSE are on the Tank train too

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-shanahans-scorched-earth-leafs-plan-wins-mlse-support/article22938348/

I thought this was pretty obvious from Shanahan's off-season moves, but it's nice to see it confirmed officiallyish. I feel badly for the players who did pour themselves into the game trying to bring success to this desolate wasteland of mediocrity.
Great article!

Let us all pray that we have finally hit the friggin bottom and that a commitment to a legitimate rebuild has happened. Last place is not the bottom, 9th annually is the bottom.

Just when I thought I was out, they're sucking me back in.....

Repeated seasons of good, good, good, weak, awful, awful, awful, good draft pick here we come, good, great, there goes the draft pick great have just killed me.

This year the hockey Gods are doing it again to me but for some reason we really seem to be snatching
defeat from the jaws of victory and apparently MLSE is OK with no more Martin Gerber trades or please God no more Boyd Devereaux heroics. We're only going to get weaker from here on out.

I am allowing myself to dream a little....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 12, 2015, 09:17:55 PM
Hey Highlander, is Shanaplan now Shanatank?

100 IF "have puck" = TRUE then GOTO 300 else GOTO 200
200 TAKE PENALTY
300 FALL DOWN

And there is no end to this IF statement.

Would that technically put it into an endless loop?

No it would just exit.  There is no goto at the end.  It just stops....kinda like Clarkson.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 13, 2015, 09:16:42 AM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 09:32:37 AM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 13, 2015, 09:37:29 AM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.

On the bright side, Leafs could probably score 7 goals in each of their next 4 games and lose 8-7 in all of them.

Leafs play MTL, FLA, CAR and WPG.  I can't recall the last stretch where the Leafs beat those teams and/or played them really well.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Coco-puffs on February 13, 2015, 09:43:55 AM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.

On the bright side, Leafs could probably score 7 goals in each of their next 4 games and lose 8-7 in all of them.

Leafs play MTL, FLA, CAR and WPG.  I can't recall the last stretch where the Leafs beat those teams and/or played them really well.

All I want from that stretch is if we win one game, please don't let it be against the Hurricanes!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on February 13, 2015, 09:45:24 AM
If the Leafs had lost against Edmonton they would have been 5 points away from 2nd overall.  Thats a pretty good shot at one of the generational talents.  But alas, The Leafs won, and sit a lofty 9 points ahead of them. 

Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 13, 2015, 10:07:08 AM
Leafs play MTL, FLA, CAR and WPG.  I can't recall the last stretch where the Leafs beat those teams and/or played them really well.

The Leafs generally play pretty well against the Habs, but, yeah, they tend not to show up against those other teams.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on February 13, 2015, 10:26:25 AM
If the Leafs could finish in the bottom 3, I'd be satisfied with that, then worse case scenario is they would pick 4th at worst.

As long as they get one of McDavid, Eichel, Strome or Hanifin. That would give us one of the two building blocks we need, a potential future #1 centre or a top pairing d-man. I think the draft falls off after these four for the Leafs in particular. Marner is skilled but yet another smaller forward.

I'd absolutely hate to see the Leafs finish fourth and someone below them in the draft wins the lottery and they end up picking 5th. That would be a real burn...especially if all those four go ahead of them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 13, 2015, 10:49:02 AM
Look - I'm all for this high draft pick thing - but I really don't want the leafs to lose to montreal. At least beat them in their own building and then continue to lose after that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2015, 11:05:59 AM
why fight it Joe, we have beat the hell out of the Habs for a while before last season. If losing just once to them gives us McDavid then we will have sweet revenge for a long time.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 13, 2015, 11:08:03 AM
Look - I'm all for this high draft pick thing - but I really don't want the leafs to lose to montreal. At least beat them in their own building and then continue to lose after that.

I agree. If the only wins the Leafs get the rest of the way are their games against the Habs and the Sens, I'll be quite happy with things.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Coco-puffs on February 13, 2015, 11:25:46 AM
Look - I'm all for this high draft pick thing - but I really don't want the leafs to lose to montreal. At least beat them in their own building and then continue to lose after that.

I agree. If the only wins the Leafs get the rest of the way are their games against the Habs and the Sens, I'll be quite happy with things.

I'd agree with this... as long as the Sens stay above us in the standings!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 11:27:44 AM
If Cody Franson can put his value on the line in the name of the Tank then you guys can stand losing to teams you don't like.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 13, 2015, 11:31:58 AM
We can't afford any more wins, feel-good or otherwise.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 13, 2015, 11:45:45 AM
We can't afford any more wins, feel-good or otherwise.

I'm talking about 6 wins in their final 26 games. That would put the team at 62 point on the season. More than good enough to get a top 3 pick, possibly a top 2 pick.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 13, 2015, 11:55:09 AM
If Cody Franson can put his value on the line in the name of the Tank then you guys can stand losing to teams you don't like.

Where's the 'like' button. Oh wait that's a different site. I'd be happy to lose every game from here on in, if it gives us a better chance at winning that damn lottery!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 13, 2015, 11:59:47 AM
We can't afford any more wins, feel-good or otherwise.

I'm talking about 6 wins in their final 26 games. That would put the team at 62 point on the season. More than good enough to get a top 3 pick, possibly a top 2 pick.

Anything above 3 wins is a total disaster.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 13, 2015, 12:08:05 PM
We can't afford any more wins, feel-good or otherwise.

I'm talking about 6 wins in their final 26 games. That would put the team at 62 point on the season. More than good enough to get a top 3 pick, possibly a top 2 pick.

Anything above 3 wins is a total disaster.

Well, now you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. I know that's par for the course for us Leafs fans, but, still . . .
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 13, 2015, 12:10:58 PM
We can't afford any more wins, feel-good or otherwise.

I'm talking about 6 wins in their final 26 games. That would put the team at 62 point on the season. More than good enough to get a top 3 pick, possibly a top 2 pick.

Anything above 3 wins is a total disaster.

My magic number is 5, as in any more wins than 5 before the end of the season is unacceptable!

BTW, Tank Nation, don't say I never give you anything!!!   8)  I found this in the Star mailbag this morning.  It's a website that allows you to throw a Leaf jersey on the ice.  You can pick the team, and then the player number you want.  You get cheers, boos, music... and the site tells you how many times that jersey has been thrown on the ice.  I helped pad Clarkson's stats (at least one of his stats is impressive).   :D

http://saveajersey.com/?v=loggedpage (http://saveajersey.com/?v=loggedpage)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Michael on February 13, 2015, 12:13:39 PM
Look - I'm all for this high draft pick thing - but I really don't want the leafs to lose to montreal. At least beat them in their own building and then continue to lose after that.

Even if that win eventually means the difference between having the 5th pick instead of the 3rd pick overall?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2015, 12:15:24 PM
Knowing the Loafs, they will suddenly wake up to Horachecks message and go on a 10 game win streak and pick 14th overall. That was last nights nightmare.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 13, 2015, 12:39:50 PM
I wonder if they had the 3rd or 4th pick if they'd entertain moving down to add another draft pick or prospect?

Maybe trade the 4th for the 6th and something substantial?

It'll depend which teams have players ranked at certain spots of course, but if the guy they want is going to be available later, I'd entertain the idea.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 12:43:07 PM
I wonder if they had the 3rd or 4th pick if they'd entertain moving down to add another draft pick or prospect?

Maybe trade the 4th for the 6th and something substantial?

It'll depend which teams have players ranked at certain spots of course, but if the guy they want is going to be available later, I'd entertain the idea.

At 4? Not a chance. You take Strome and run far, far away. This teams been looking for a big and talented centre like him since Sundin left (not comparing the two). Absolutely can't pass on him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 13, 2015, 12:44:08 PM
The Leafs have less then a 1% chance of making the playoffs.  Now is the time to sit players, big name players.  #1. Because they didn't get it done.  #2.  Hopefully the team would lose more.

I really hope Montreal slaughters them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 13, 2015, 12:48:23 PM

I wonder if they had the 3rd or 4th pick if they'd entertain moving down to add another draft pick or prospect?

Maybe trade the 4th for the 6th and something substantial?

It'll depend which teams have players ranked at certain spots of course, but if the guy they want is going to be available later, I'd entertain the idea.

At 4? Not a chance. You take Strome and run far, far away. This teams been looking for a big and talented centre like him since Sundin left (not comparing the two). Absolutely can't pass on him.

I mean sure, but as we've seen in recent drafts, some guys can slip a few or more spots from the generally accepted rankings.

The Leafs have the 4th, they speak to 5th and 6th and neither have Strome as one of the two top ranked players on their list of remaining players, but 5th and 6th want the same guy, don't you go to 6th and offer to let them move to 4th to get their guy so you can add another asset and still get yours?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 13, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
Look - I'm all for this high draft pick thing - but I really don't want the leafs to lose to montreal. At least beat them in their own building and then continue to lose after that.

Even if that win eventually means the difference between having the 5th pick instead of the 3rd pick overall?

You ask as if I have any influence or control over the matter.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 01:01:41 PM
I mean sure, but as we've seen in recent drafts, some guys can slip a few or more spots from the generally accepted rankings.

The Leafs have the 4th, they speak to 5th and 6th and neither have Strome as one of the two top ranked players on their list of remaining players, but 5th and 6th want the same guy, don't you go to 6th and offer to let them move to 4th to get their guy so you can add another asset and still get yours?

I'm not sure how likely a situation like that would play out, especially with GMs being so open about their lists and all that. Still, I honestly don't think I'd take the risk. Take the guy you desperately need and be happy.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2015, 01:45:52 PM
Failing McDavid or Eischel, Strome is our man.. I dont feel great about Boston U D men. Look at Gilroy a few years back, they were touting him as the next coming of Christ and he is just OK (or was, don't know if he is still playing)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 13, 2015, 01:56:15 PM
Just to talk about the prospects for a second, why is Lawson Crouse rated so highly? Is this another Tyler Biggs style player??
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 02:05:14 PM
Just to talk about the prospects for a second, why is Lawson Crouse rated so highly? Is this another Tyler Biggs style player??

Corey Pronman actually wrote an article about Crouse today explaining his stance on him:

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nhl-draft/post/_/id/709/why-lawson-crouse-is-a-top-10-prospect

It's insider-only, but I'll post a couple of paragraphs:

Quote
Crouse has many positives to his game other than “size.” He skates well in general, and very well for a big man. The same can be said for his puck skills, even if he’s not a dynamic offensive player. He’s a very advanced two-way thinker, who is one of the best defensive forwards available in this year’s draft class. And yes, he has an elite physical game as well due to his size, strength, work ethic and physicality that allows him to win a lot of battles.

...

In the case of Crouse, the scouting analysis shows us that we have a winger whose skating and puck skills are good (but not great), is great defensively, has high-end hockey sense and has an elite physical game. That combination of skills projects a reasonable ceiling of that player being an above-average scoring NHLer, who clearly isn’t top-line caliber in scoring, but plays very well versus the opponent’s best forwards, and can be one of a team’s top penalty killers. If that outcome is realized, this is a very valuable asset for any NHL team, and certainly any of the teams looking to be picking in the top 10 of this year's draft.

Basically his lack of offense is discouraging but the rest of his game is really, really good. Pronman has Crouse ranked 10th in the draft, which I think is fair. It's the people that have him 4th or 5th that are kind of crazy.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 13, 2015, 02:10:46 PM
Just to talk about the prospects for a second, why is Lawson Crouse rated so highly? Is this another Tyler Biggs style player??

Corey Pronman actually wrote an article about Crouse today explaining his stance on him:

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nhl-draft/post/_/id/709/why-lawson-crouse-is-a-top-10-prospect

It's insider-only, but I'll post a couple of paragraphs:

Quote
Crouse has many positives to his game other than “size.” He skates well in general, and very well for a big man. The same can be said for his puck skills, even if he’s not a dynamic offensive player. He’s a very advanced two-way thinker, who is one of the best defensive forwards available in this year’s draft class. And yes, he has an elite physical game as well due to his size, strength, work ethic and physicality that allows him to win a lot of battles.

...

In the case of Crouse, the scouting analysis shows us that we have a winger whose skating and puck skills are good (but not great), is great defensively, has high-end hockey sense and has an elite physical game. That combination of skills projects a reasonable ceiling of that player being an above-average scoring NHLer, who clearly isn’t top-line caliber in scoring, but plays very well versus the opponent’s best forwards, and can be one of a team’s top penalty killers. If that outcome is realized, this is a very valuable asset for any NHL team, and certainly any of the teams looking to be picking in the top 10 of this year's draft.

Basically his lack of offense is discouraging but the rest of his game is really, really good. Pronman has Crouse ranked 10th in the draft, which I think is fair. It's the people that have him 4th or 5th that are kind of crazy.

I think it's best to view him as basically a winger version of Jordan Staal.  Staal didn't wow with his points in his draft year but still went 2nd overall (in a weaker class).  Crouse is probably a good example of the times where it pays to dig deeper than the stats.  Might not be the biggest offensive producer, but whoever ends up with him might end up getting more value from him than some other big pts producers in the long-run.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 13, 2015, 02:34:22 PM
Failing McDavid or Eischel, Strome is our man.. I dont feel great about Boston U D men. Look at Gilroy a few years back, they were touting him as the next coming of Christ and he is just OK (or was, don't know if he is still playing)

And you think that reflects on the school...how? Players from every school and junior team have been misjudged. Kevin Shattenkirk was a BU defenseman and he's pretty good.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 13, 2015, 02:37:45 PM
Failing McDavid or Eischel, Strome is our man.. I dont feel great about Boston U D men. Look at Gilroy a few years back, they were touting him as the next coming of Christ and he is just OK (or was, don't know if he is still playing)

And you think that reflects on the school...how? Players from every school and junior team have been misjudged. Kevin Shattenkirk was a BU defenseman and he's pretty good.

Not to mention the fact that Gilroy was 24 when he was getting hyped up.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 13, 2015, 02:44:22 PM
Not to mention the fact that Gilroy was 24 when he was getting hyped up.

Well yeah. Thanks to Brian "Signing Christian Hanson is like a 1st round pick!" Burke and the occasional success story the hockey world did go through a phase of overvaluing undrafted college free agents like crazy but that didn't really reflect on any one school. We made big deals about Gus and Jussi Rynnas too but nobody is going to "not feel great" about Scandinavian goalies on that basis.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on February 13, 2015, 02:50:49 PM
Is a first round pick that doesn't pan out like signing Christian Hanson?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 13, 2015, 02:54:33 PM
Is a first round pick that doesn't pan out like signing Christian Hanson?

Well, even the worst first round pick is a little like Schrodinger's Cat. Hanson was more or less a dead cat on arrival.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 13, 2015, 02:58:28 PM
Is a first round pick that doesn't pan out like signing Christian Hanson?

Well, even the worst first round pick is a little like Schrodinger's Cat. Hanson was more or less a dead cat on arrival.

I think we should draft/notdraft The Cat.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 13, 2015, 02:58:56 PM
Seems like only yesterday...but 5 years ago already.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/leafs-coach-likes-what-he-sees-in-frat-pack-line-1.497704
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 13, 2015, 03:01:16 PM
Seems like only yesterday...but 5 years ago already.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/leafs-coach-likes-what-he-sees-in-frat-pack-line-1.497704

Not cool to make up fake websites.  It was believable until you had Bozak centre-ing a different line than Kessel's.  We all know that didn't happen until this past month.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 13, 2015, 03:27:30 PM
Is a first round pick that doesn't pan out like signing Christian Hanson?

Well, even the worst first round pick is a little like Schrodinger's Cat. Hanson was more or less a dead cat on arrival.

And it's a box that takes 3 years to open.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cabber24 on February 13, 2015, 04:09:06 PM
Did you know at the 2016 draft there will be 3 lotteries, one for each of the top 3 picks. The tank needs to be strong this year to ensure a high pick.

Even last place this year only ensures a 20% shot at McDavid, who ever ends up getting him will have to be very lucky regardless of how low they finish and next year will be even harder to get a high pick.

http://nhllotterysimulator.com/#/
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 13, 2015, 10:23:03 PM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.

Well they beat Philly so Columbus passed the Leafs tonight.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 13, 2015, 10:43:30 PM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.

Well they beat Philly so Columbus passed the Leafs tonight.

Yup.  I was watching that go to a 3 point game and then saw CLB win it.  Jumped out of my seat.  Now watching NJ trying to win against Chicago.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 13, 2015, 10:46:25 PM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.

Well they beat Philly so Columbus passed the Leafs tonight.

In OT no doubt. So the Leafs fall into the bottom 5. Nice.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 14, 2015, 01:03:46 AM
I don't know what I'd do if we had to endure all of this and we STILL don't get a top-5 pick. Columbus better turn things up.

They're 1 point back with 4 games in hand!

I still worry though. 3 of their next 5 are against 3 of the best teams in the East (NYI, PIT, MTL) and they have 2 against Philly, whose 6-2-2 in their last 10. Games in hand can be deceptive, I hate them.

Well they beat Philly so Columbus passed the Leafs tonight.

In OT no doubt. So the Leafs fall into the bottom 5. Nice.
Would be nice if Arizona could string together some wins though.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 14, 2015, 10:19:33 AM
When asked about my retirement, I always thought it sounded flaky to say my plan was to win the lottery.  But if the great hockey minds think it's the way for the Leafs to win the Cup, it's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on February 14, 2015, 10:33:29 AM
I'm in for the Powerball in AZ, thinks its up to over 500 million.  Nice to dream!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 14, 2015, 02:29:27 PM
I'm in for the Powerball in AZ, thinks its up to over 500 million.  Nice to dream!

If you win, please buy the Coyotoes, move them to Markham and call them the Leafz.  Then we can all have something to cheer for.   :P
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 14, 2015, 04:46:42 PM
McKenzie has two Leafs scouts one of whom is DPP Mark Hunter taking in the Monarchs game.

Please don't be for Richards.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 14, 2015, 05:24:31 PM
McKenzie has two Leafs scouts one of whom is DPP Mark Hunter taking in the Monarchs game.

Please don't be for Richards.

I'd take Colin Miller.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 14, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
McKenzie has two Leafs scouts one of whom is DPP Mark Hunter taking in the Monarchs game.

Please don't be for Richards.

From Monarchs game:

Andy Tonge @AndyTonge1  ·  2 hours ago
FWIW: Been told a third Toronto Maple Leafs scout is here tonight. He was a last-minute attendee, thus not on seating chart.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 14, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
McKenzie has two Leafs scouts one of whom is DPP Mark Hunter taking in the Monarchs game.

Please don't be for Richards.

He also said this:

TSNBobMcKenzie: Last line of last tweet was probably most important element but it may get overlooked, so I'll say it again: Nothing cooking at this time.

Also, a few days ago, Elliotte Friedman posted that the Kings were willing to do a Phaneuf deal that included Richards. The Leafs said no to Richards being part of it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 14, 2015, 10:44:29 PM
Preview of the 2014-2015 Upper Deck Mike Richard's card photo?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Side_effects_of_chronic_use_of_Cocaine.png/712px-Side_effects_of_chronic_use_of_Cocaine.png)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on February 15, 2015, 02:30:28 AM
Do the Kings have the cap space to take on Phaneuf without the Leafs taking Richards in return?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on February 15, 2015, 08:47:06 AM
Do the Kings have the cap space to take on Phaneuf without the Leafs taking Richards in return?

not currently
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 09:15:32 AM
Do the Kings have the cap space to take on Phaneuf without the Leafs taking Richards in return?

not currently

Not sure what the deal is, but I suggested Phaneuf for Richards and LA's first, a while back. The cap room shouldn't be an issue for the Leafs if they are cleaning house anyways.  How much comes off the books when Santo and Winnick are gone? Franson?

Don't forget that LA's first is still in lottery ticket territory. Can you image if the Leafs make this deal for Phaneuf, and LA's pick wins the lottery? That's McDavid, and another top 5 pick (guessing) in a deep draft for a rebuilding Leafs team.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Andy on February 15, 2015, 09:38:33 AM
Do the Kings have the cap space to take on Phaneuf without the Leafs taking Richards in return?

not currently

Not sure what the deal is, but I suggested Phaneuf for Richards and LA's first, a while back. The cap room shouldn't be an issue for the Leafs if they are cleaning house anyways.  How much comes off the books when Santo and Winnick are gone? Franson?

Don't forget that LA's first is still in lottery ticket territory. Can you image if the Leafs make this deal for Phaneuf, and LA's pick wins the lottery? That's McDavid, and another top 5 pick (guessing) in a deep draft for a rebuilding Leafs team.

LA isn't giving up their first this year in a deal for Phaneuf.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 15, 2015, 09:46:44 AM
I guarantee that LA isn't in the lottery at the end of the year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 15, 2015, 09:48:02 AM
LA isn't giving up their first this year in a deal for Phaneuf.

Which is probably the best argument for waiting to trade Phaneuf at the draft.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 09:48:38 AM
Do the Kings have the cap space to take on Phaneuf without the Leafs taking Richards in return?

not currently

Not sure what the deal is, but I suggested Phaneuf for Richards and LA's first, a while back. The cap room shouldn't be an issue for the Leafs if they are cleaning house anyways.  How much comes off the books when Santo and Winnick are gone? Franson?

Don't forget that LA's first is still in lottery ticket territory. Can you image if the Leafs make this deal for Phaneuf, and LA's pick wins the lottery? That's McDavid, and another top 5 pick (guessing) in a deep draft for a rebuilding Leafs team.

LA isn't giving up their first this year in a deal for Phaneuf.

Depends on how much they want to rid themselves of Richards contract, I guess.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on February 15, 2015, 09:56:08 AM
LA isn't giving up their first this year in a deal for Phaneuf.

Which is probably the best argument for waiting to trade Phaneuf at the draft.

I would imagine Phaneuf's value being lower at the draft. That price tag might put off a lot of teams who probably want Phaneuf for their 2nd pairing.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on February 15, 2015, 10:01:09 AM
LA isn't giving up their first this year in a deal for Phaneuf.

Then they won't be getting him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 15, 2015, 10:10:19 AM
I would imagine Phaneuf's value being lower at the draft. That price tag might put off a lot of teams who probably want Phaneuf for their 2nd pairing.

I doubt it. If a team wants Phaneuf now then they're trading for him knowing what's left on his contract so it's not really a cap issue. If anything, the off-season overage allowance and marginally higher cap will probably allow some teams that wouldn't be interested right now make an offer. I think Phaneuf probably has a higher value to a mid-range to lower tier club looking to take a step forward than he does to a team looking to make a playoff run and those teams don't really look to add at the deadline.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 15, 2015, 10:17:30 AM
I'd say Phaneuf's value will only climb as he gets closer to retiring.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on February 15, 2015, 01:22:53 PM
Not sure what the deal is, but I suggested Phaneuf for Richards and LA's first, a while back. The cap room shouldn't be an issue for the Leafs if they are cleaning house anyways.  How much comes off the books when Santo and Winnick are gone? Franson?

They would then have Clarkson for five more years at $5.25M and Richards for five more years at $5.75M. $11M is a lot of money on the 4th line (or maybe AHL.)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 15, 2015, 03:08:24 PM
Clarkson for Richards.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 15, 2015, 03:12:23 PM
Not sure what the deal is, but I suggested Phaneuf for Richards and LA's first, a while back. The cap room shouldn't be an issue for the Leafs if they are cleaning house anyways.  How much comes off the books when Santo and Winnick are gone? Franson?

They would then have Clarkson for five more years at $5.25M and Richards for five more years at $5.75M. $11M is a lot of money on the 4th line (or maybe AHL.)

The five years would be good timing while your waiting for the draft picks to mature. The dollars going to these two probably keeps them above the cap floor in the meantime. Of course this only makes sense if they are planning a real tear down.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 15, 2015, 03:49:16 PM
Big games today between Ottawa and Carolina, as well as Edmonton at Winnipeg.  A chance for Toronto to pull within 8 points of second last, and to move within 4 points of the 3rd pick!  Fuel up the tank!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 15, 2015, 03:51:24 PM
The five years would be good timing while your waiting for the draft picks to mature. The dollars going to these two probably keeps them above the cap floor in the meantime. Of course this only makes sense if they are planning a real tear down.

Keeping above the floor really won't be a concern unless the Leafs try to trade every single player on their roster which they won't do. Figure that they're going to almost certainly be keeping:

Gardiner 4.2
Kadri 3.5-4 or so
Clarkson 5.25
Rielly (???)

So assuming that Rielly makes...3.5 on his first non-rookie deal and you're already looking at 16 million on 4 players. If you figure on relatively untradeable vets like Robidas sticking around you're already at a point where even just filling out the roster with bargain basement clutter will get a team to the cap floor. They certainly don't need to take back terrible contracts to make that happen.

The way to get a team to the floor in a rebuild is to go out and look for guys like Santorelli, useful pieces, and maybe overpay them by 500K or so on short-term deals. That way you can perpetually cycle them for assets.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: caveman on February 15, 2015, 05:18:36 PM
Big games today between Ottawa and Carolina, as well as Edmonton at Winnipeg.  A chance for Toronto to pull within 8 points of second last, and to move within 4 points of the 3rd pick!  Fuel up the tank!

3rd has to be the target...LOL.. just get Carolina and the Coyotes going....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 15, 2015, 06:13:59 PM
Big games today between Ottawa and Carolina, as well as Edmonton at Winnipeg.  A chance for Toronto to pull within 8 points of second last, and to move within 4 points of the 3rd pick!  Fuel up the tank!

3rd has to be the target...LOL.. just get Carolina and the Coyotes going....

Those games are tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mike1 on February 15, 2015, 06:23:27 PM
Clarkson for Richards.

This is the only deal I'd do for Richards. Richards has the same amount of points as Clarkson does, both need a change in scenery. The Phaneuf talk is just crazy stuff from my perspective unless L.A is adding incentives along with Richards but even then, do you want both Mike Richards & David Clarkson sucking up cap room/roster spots & underachieving on a re-building team? Do you want to have the most expensive 4th line in the NHL just to get a prospect or draft pick? Not me.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: wnc096 on February 15, 2015, 06:31:28 PM
Clarkson for Richards.

Do you want to have the most expensive 4th line in the NHL just to get a prospect or draft pick? Not me.

If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 15, 2015, 06:39:47 PM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

You don't want to surround your good, young and impressionable players with overpaid, frustrated players who would rather be elsewhere.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mike1 on February 15, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

You don't want to surround your good, young and impressionable players with overpaid, frustrated players who would rather be elsewhere.

You also want flexibility on the cap, just in case some cap crunched team needs to make a move. The Leafs aren't going to sit around & do nothing for 5 straight years. They are going to want to add players that they think can be a part of the solution. Having not 1 but 2 boat anchor contracts sucking up room doesn't help in any situation. It's not worth getting the additional prospect or pick.


Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 15, 2015, 07:11:43 PM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

There's still the possibility that the team may need the cap space or those roster spots before those contracts expire. It's bad enough having Clarkson on the cap for the next 5 season. It's much worse to more than double the dead space.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 15, 2015, 09:53:43 PM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

There's still the possibility that the team may need the cap space or those roster spots before those contracts expire. It's bad enough having Clarkson on the cap for the next 5 season. It's much worse to more than double the dead space.

Yeah, there should be no reason the Leafs remain a cap team for the next couple of years. With no chance of success in the short term, we need to horde the cap and roster flexibility, as well as limit the operating budget as we rebuild and wait out the salary anchors. Play an ELC team + 1 year UFAs until there is a core to commit to.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 15, 2015, 09:59:37 PM
I said the Leafs wouldn't be competitive until they got out from under Tucker's buy-out.  Nobody wanted to believe that.  Then they signed Clarkson.  I said the Leafs wouldn't be competitive until they got out from under Clarkson's....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 16, 2015, 03:46:59 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/16/28a9a335912cc3fdaf805d9a3109ea6c.jpg)

The rebuild worked!!!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 16, 2015, 09:02:02 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/16/28a9a335912cc3fdaf805d9a3109ea6c.jpg)

The rebuild worked!!!

I haven't bought an NHL game since 2013 but it always bothered me that they can't even bother to put the whole lineup out for the Stanley Cup winning photo.  There are 17 players and 1 coach on the ice.  No assistants, trainers, the guys that were healthy scratched or you know, the other goaltender and skater.  For a game that keeps getting railed on for going downhill in terms of content but gets decent marks for the improved visuals, that seems like a pretty fundamental detail that they keep sucking at.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 16, 2015, 09:04:50 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/16/28a9a335912cc3fdaf805d9a3109ea6c.jpg)

The rebuild worked!!!

I haven't bought an NHL game since 2013 but it always bothered me that they can't even bother to put the whole lineup out for the Stanley Cup winning photo.  There are 17 players and 1 coach on the ice.  No assistants, trainers, the guys that were healthy scratched or you know, the other goaltender and skater.  For a game that keeps getting railed on for going downhill in terms of content but gets decent marks for the improved visuals, that seems like a pretty fundamental detail that they keep sucking at.

I stopped buying the game when the did the code split and started reselling the previous years game for PC and Playstation 2, and the updated game for Playstation 3 and X-Box.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on February 16, 2015, 09:13:48 AM
It's all been downhill with that game since they got rid of the blue ice
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on February 16, 2015, 09:16:21 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/16/28a9a335912cc3fdaf805d9a3109ea6c.jpg)

The rebuild worked!!!

I haven't bought an NHL game since 2013 but it always bothered me that they can't even bother to put the whole lineup out for the Stanley Cup winning photo.  There are 17 players and 1 coach on the ice.  No assistants, trainers, the guys that were healthy scratched or you know, the other goaltender and skater.  For a game that keeps getting railed on for going downhill in terms of content but gets decent marks for the improved visuals, that seems like a pretty fundamental detail that they keep sucking at.

Yeah, but broken sticks man!!

It's pretty obvious EA stopped trying a long time ago. They're this years Leafs team of the video game world.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 16, 2015, 09:19:48 AM
I had a long absence from the series. Last one I played was 2006. I couldn't get used to the new controls.

14/15 gave the 'classic' controls so I gave it another shot. It's ok, the goaltending AI is ridiculous, it's as if they used Allan Bester as a consultant.

Anyway, I traded gardiner for Nash, and won the cup and Nash was the conn smythe winner with 27 goals in 20 games.

And went on to win 2 more cups, but I've been simulating 90% of the seasons.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on February 16, 2015, 09:46:30 AM
The FIFA series keeps getting better & better - I really noticed how they were both going in different directions in '09 and quit the NHL series altogether.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Frank E on February 16, 2015, 10:43:34 AM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

There's still the possibility that the team may need the cap space or those roster spots before those contracts expire. It's bad enough having Clarkson on the cap for the next 5 season. It's much worse to more than double the dead space.

Yeah, there should be no reason the Leafs remain a cap team for the next couple of years. With no chance of success in the short term, we need to horde the cap and roster flexibility, as well as limit the operating budget as we rebuild and wait out the salary anchors. Play an ELC team + 1 year UFAs until there is a core to commit to.

I agree with the "stay close to the floor for flexibility to take on some contracts that come along with other assets", but you also have to be careful with promoting ELC sort-of prospects because you're burning off some RFA years that you might need when they start contending.

I'm alright with them signing short-term reclamation projects as long as they're not terrible people.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 16, 2015, 10:47:17 AM
I'm alright with them signing short-term reclamation projects as long as they're not terrible people.

So that's a hard no on Idi Amin?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Frank E on February 16, 2015, 10:52:01 AM
I'm alright with them signing short-term reclamation projects as long as they're not terrible people.

So that's a hard no on Idi Amin?

He's got size though...I just mean that I don't think they want to be putting out fires all over the place in the room/in the media, especially if they're trying a longer term development process. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 16, 2015, 01:22:58 PM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

There's still the possibility that the team may need the cap space or those roster spots before those contracts expire. It's bad enough having Clarkson on the cap for the next 5 season. It's much worse to more than double the dead space.

Yeah, there should be no reason the Leafs remain a cap team for the next couple of years. With no chance of success in the short term, we need to horde the cap and roster flexibility, as well as limit the operating budget as we rebuild and wait out the salary anchors. Play an ELC team + 1 year UFAs until there is a core to commit to.

I agree with the "stay close to the floor for flexibility to take on some contracts that come along with other assets", but you also have to be careful with promoting ELC sort-of prospects because you're burning off some RFA years that you might need when they start contending.

I'm alright with them signing short-term reclamation projects as long as they're not terrible people.

Oh yeah, you're right. Age them in the A and have them develop their game and systems together rather than get abused every night with the skeleton crewed parent club. Use the NHL team to showcase one-off contracts and sell off for more picks at every deadline until clarkson's contract is moved.

Which reclamation projects should we be looking out for? They'll defintiely get the minutes to show what they have.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Frank E on February 16, 2015, 01:28:02 PM
If the team isn't going to be competitive for 5 years...what difference does it make?

There's still the possibility that the team may need the cap space or those roster spots before those contracts expire. It's bad enough having Clarkson on the cap for the next 5 season. It's much worse to more than double the dead space.

Yeah, there should be no reason the Leafs remain a cap team for the next couple of years. With no chance of success in the short term, we need to horde the cap and roster flexibility, as well as limit the operating budget as we rebuild and wait out the salary anchors. Play an ELC team + 1 year UFAs until there is a core to commit to.

I agree with the "stay close to the floor for flexibility to take on some contracts that come along with other assets", but you also have to be careful with promoting ELC sort-of prospects because you're burning off some RFA years that you might need when they start contending.

I'm alright with them signing short-term reclamation projects as long as they're not terrible people.

Oh yeah, you're right. Age them in the A and have them develop their game and systems together rather than get abused every night with the skeleton crewed parent club. Use the NHL team to showcase one-off contracts and sell off for more picks at every deadline until clarkson's contract is moved.

Which reclamation projects should we be looking out for? They'll defintiely get the minutes to show what they have.

That's a great idea for a new thread this off-season...Available Reclamation Projects.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 01:28:41 PM
That's a great idea for a new thread this off-season...Available Reclamation Projects.

Basically just don't sign any free agents until August, and then sign them all.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 16, 2015, 01:35:21 PM
Updated standings as of February 15:
(http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx210/ldnknights/Standings%20Feb16_1.png)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 01:43:06 PM
Ugh, I think that we really have to get 4th. Arizona probably loves Strome for all the same reasons I do, and I can't see them picking Marner over him especially after selecting a similar player in Domi last year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 16, 2015, 02:24:26 PM
Ugh, I think that we really have to get 4th. Arizona probably loves Strome for all the same reasons I do, and I can't see them picking Marner over him especially after selecting a similar player in Domi last year.

Don't forget the possibility of a team behind the Leafs winning the lottery and moving Toronto and everybody else back a pick.  We need 3rd, dammit!  The tank needs more fuel!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 16, 2015, 02:51:17 PM
Ugh, I think that we really have to get 4th. Arizona probably loves Strome for all the same reasons I do, and I can't see them picking Marner over him especially after selecting a similar player in Domi last year.

Don't forget the possibility of a team behind the Leafs winning the lottery and moving Toronto and everybody else back a pick.  We need 3rd, dammit!  The tank needs more fuel!

Lots of season left, and we're on the right path. That looming win streak took a hit on Sunday, and there are more hits coming!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 16, 2015, 03:02:37 PM
Ugh, I think that we really have to get 4th. Arizona probably loves Strome for all the same reasons I do, and I can't see them picking Marner over him especially after selecting a similar player in Domi last year.

The only thing I would say is they in theory could have their line of the future with Christian Dvorak - Mitch Marner - Max Domi if they really wanted to try and All-Knights line.  They are playing together in the OHL right now. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 16, 2015, 03:06:30 PM
The only thing I would say is they in theory could have their line of the future with Christian Dvorak - Mitch Marner - Max Domi if they really wanted to try and All-Knights line.  They are playing together in the OHL right now. 

Wow I actually completely forgot about the Domi-Marner connection (and didn't realize they had their 3rd linemate too). That could definitely work in our favour then.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on February 16, 2015, 04:11:05 PM
At what position is domi projected to draft at?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 16, 2015, 04:17:22 PM
At what position is domi projected to draft at?

Domi was drafted last year by Arizona.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on February 16, 2015, 04:19:21 PM
:(
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on February 16, 2015, 04:33:23 PM
I would like to say that the leafs used this strategy once before in picking the linemate of eric lindros on oshawa.  Rob Pearson played 2 season for us before being shipped off to washington.  I don't think its a great strategy.  you only get a 1/3 chance of picking the right guy and most people said that guy was lindros.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2015, 04:50:25 PM
Rob Pearson <shudder>. Leafs had 3 first round picks that year...Scott Thornton (#3), Pearson (#12), Steve Bancroft (#21). What a haul. Still available at #21 - Adam Foote, Nik Lidstrom, Federov, Bure...good memories!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 16, 2015, 05:13:58 PM
Rob Pearson <shudder>. Leafs had 3 first round picks that year...Scott Thornton (#3), Pearson (#12), Steve Bancroft (#21). What a haul. Still available at #21 - Adam Foote, Nik Lidstrom, Federov, Bure...good memories!

2nd round, 4th round, 3d round and 6th round respectively, so not exactly all leafs misses.

Actually looking back at that first round, there were quite a few duds.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 16, 2015, 06:53:40 PM
Rob Pearson <shudder>. Leafs had 3 first round picks that year...Scott Thornton (#3), Pearson (#12), Steve Bancroft (#21). What a haul. Still available at #21 - Adam Foote, Nik Lidstrom, Federov, Bure...good memories!

2nd round, 4th round, 3d round and 6th round respectively, so not exactly all leafs misses.

Actually looking back at that first round, there were quite a few duds.

So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 16, 2015, 07:26:13 PM
So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?

I am with Potvin29's article he showed where just drafting the highest scoring players available will basically be the best choice.  Once in a while it flops and once in a while a player off the chart turns out great but those are so infrequent that a team should not even consider it. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: skrackle on February 16, 2015, 07:46:10 PM
Rob Pearson <shudder>. Leafs had 3 first round picks that year...Scott Thornton (#3), Pearson (#12), Steve Bancroft (#21). What a haul. Still available at #21 - Adam Foote, Nik Lidstrom, Federov, Bure...good memories!

2nd round, 4th round, 3d round and 6th round respectively, so not exactly all leafs misses.

Actually looking back at that first round, there were quite a few duds.

So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?

I certainly hope that Shanahan's restructuring of the Leafs office will result in improvements with drafting and development.

If the Leafs are really embracing a rebuild, they'll need to step up their game in these areas. They've gone from pretty much nothing in the pipeline to maybe a couple of promising prospects. That needs to be ramped way up over the next few years.

I really don't know if modern day analytics has eliminated the possibility of drafting first (or any) round duds. I'd guess it hasn't, as it's still human beings that we are talking about. However, the Leafs should be able to improve their track record in this area if they make it the priority that it needs to be.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2015, 07:47:29 PM
So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?

I am with Potvin29's article he showed where just drafting the highest scoring players available will basically be the best choice.  Once in a while it flops and once in a while a player off the chart turns out great but those are so infrequent that a team should not even consider it.
Where is this posted (or is there a link)? Don't remember seeing it. This is something I was wondering about the other day.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 16, 2015, 08:41:02 PM
So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?

I am with Potvin29's article he showed where just drafting the highest scoring players available will basically be the best choice.  Once in a while it flops and once in a while a player off the chart turns out great but those are so infrequent that a team should not even consider it.
Where is this posted (or is there a link)? Don't remember seeing it. This is something I was wondering about the other day.

This kind of brings up a question that's always been in the back of my mind - what was it that Sundin did to make him go first overall back in 89? I know nothing of his days before the Nords, to be honest, except I've read about that playoff series where he scored the 7 goals in 8 games - but there's such limited numbers on Sundin - how did they know?

BTW - completely off topic - but I just did a sort on the 89 draft, and he is the highest scorer of that draft year, Federov and Lidstrom were 2 and 3. You know who was 7th? Reichel.

Actually - 10th - Donald Audette. Who was drafted in the 9th round.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 16, 2015, 08:48:40 PM

The FIFA series keeps getting better & better - I really noticed how they were both going in different directions in '09 and quit the NHL series altogether.

You are correct.

I thought up until the next gen evolution though they where pretty playable.

The version they released this year on next gen is absolutely disgraceful, it's missing everything that made it a decent game.

I've played this iteration about 90% less than all others.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Madferret on February 16, 2015, 08:55:36 PM

The FIFA series keeps getting better & better - I really noticed how they were both going in different directions in '09 and quit the NHL series altogether.

You are correct.

I thought up until the next gen evolution though they where pretty playable.

The version they released this year on next gen is absolutely disgraceful, it's missing everything that made it a decent game.

I've played this iteration about 90% less than all others.

Still a FIFA baller?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 16, 2015, 09:11:05 PM
Always.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 16, 2015, 09:52:06 PM
Canes beating the Sens is good.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 16, 2015, 11:03:58 PM
Arizona didn't register a shot in the 2nd period and are being outshot 28-6 in the 3rd of their game.  Taking this tank seriously.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 16, 2015, 11:15:10 PM
So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?

I am with Potvin29's article he showed where just drafting the highest scoring players available will basically be the best choice.  Once in a while it flops and once in a while a player off the chart turns out great but those are so infrequent that a team should not even consider it.
Where is this posted (or is there a link)? Don't remember seeing it. This is something I was wondering about the other day.

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-nhl-has-a-scouting-problem/

Quote
Using Pearson’s r correlation we found that the NHL’s Central Scouting Staff rankings compared to those players’ NHL games played only had a correlation of -0.19 (or “No or negligible relationship”).  When using very simple metrics such as a prospect’s draft-year points/game, the correlation with NHL games played is much higher, at 0.41 (or “Strong positive relationship”).

This is absolutely mind blowing

I found it interesting where the Leafs have sometimes simply drafted for the size of a player thinking that size can't be taught.

Hopefully those days are over.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 17, 2015, 09:11:52 AM
So I was having this discussion with a colleague at work about first round draft duds.  The discussion went down the train of thought that with all of the advanced scouting and metrics available to teams nowadays that the chances that a team totally misses the boat on a 1st overall selection are smaller than they were say 25 - 35 years ago.  This isn't to say that a Crosby will be drafted in every draft, but rather misses like Patrick Stefan and Pat Falloon ( not a first but picked 2nd before Neidermeyer at 3rd) will become less and less frequent.  What say the minds of tmlfans.ca?

I am with Potvin29's article he showed where just drafting the highest scoring players available will basically be the best choice.  Once in a while it flops and once in a while a player off the chart turns out great but those are so infrequent that a team should not even consider it.
Where is this posted (or is there a link)? Don't remember seeing it. This is something I was wondering about the other day.

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-nhl-has-a-scouting-problem/

Quote
Using Pearson’s r correlation we found that the NHL’s Central Scouting Staff rankings compared to those players’ NHL games played only had a correlation of -0.19 (or “No or negligible relationship”).  When using very simple metrics such as a prospect’s draft-year points/game, the correlation with NHL games played is much higher, at 0.41 (or “Strong positive relationship”).

This is absolutely mind blowing

I found it interesting where the Leafs have sometimes simply drafted for the size of a player thinking that size can't be taught.

Hopefully those days are over.

Thanks, Britishbulldog/Potvin29. I didn't catch it the first time it came up. It seems to me that speed and PPG are some pretty easy surface metrics to rely on for draft success.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Britishbulldog on February 17, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
Arizona didn't register a shot in the 2nd period and are being outshot 28-6 in the 3rd of their game.  Taking this tank seriously.

That is BAAAADDDD!  Edmonton was bad against Toronto as well.  The Leafs looked like the Harlem Globetrotters.  I don't find Buffalo and Carolina look as bad as those 2 teams.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on February 17, 2015, 09:05:15 PM
I think the bears are on board for Tank Nation too now:

(http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/55500/Polar-Bear-Tank-55506.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 17, 2015, 10:49:34 PM
mirtle: Leafs fall to 4-21-2 in their last 27 games. Their slump is now nearly half their season.

It's almost exactly 1/3 of the season. This is their most spectacular collapse yet.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 17, 2015, 11:03:26 PM
mirtle: Leafs fall to 4-21-2 in their last 27 games. Their slump is now nearly half their season.

It's almost exactly 1/3 of the season. This is their most spectacular collapse yet.

The best part for me is that they went on a 10-1-1 stretch after getting blown out by Nashville.  Outside of that stretch they are: 13-29-4...that's Buffalo level bad, 54 point pace.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on February 17, 2015, 11:05:38 PM
The only thing I would say is they in theory could have their line of the future with Christian Dvorak - Mitch Marner - Max Domi if they really wanted to try and All-Knights line.  They are playing together in the OHL right now. 

Wow I actually completely forgot about the Domi-Marner connection (and didn't realize they had their 3rd linemate too). That could definitely work in our favour then.
I was sort of leaning on the Connor Brown/Connor McDavid connection.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 17, 2015, 11:18:10 PM
mirtle: Leafs fall to 4-21-2 in their last 27 games. Their slump is now nearly half their season.

It's almost exactly 1/3 of the season. This is their most spectacular collapse yet.

At what point is a slump no longer a slump, but merely indicative of our natural baseline level of play?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 18, 2015, 08:09:41 AM
Columbus and New Jersey both won last night. Starting to build a decent little cushion there for 5th. And just 4 points out of 4th right now, but Carolina has 2 games in hand. Friday's game against them is going to be big. I BELEAF!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 18, 2015, 08:11:19 AM
mirtle: Leafs fall to 4-21-2 in their last 27 games. Their slump is now nearly half their season.

It's almost exactly 1/3 of the season. This is their most spectacular collapse yet.

The best part for me is that they went on a 10-1-1 stretch after getting blown out by Nashville.  Outside of that stretch they are: 13-29-4...that's Buffalo level bad, 54 point pace.

Stupid hot streaks. Although Buffalo also had a similar stretch like that too this season where they picked up 10 wins in 12 games or something like that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on February 18, 2015, 08:16:56 AM
Columbus and New Jersey both won last night. Starting to build a decent little cushion there for 5th. And just 4 points out of 4th right now, but Carolina has 2 games in hand. Friday's game against them is going to be big. I BELEAF!

Huge game to lose Friday..huge
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on February 18, 2015, 11:18:20 AM
Columbus and New Jersey both won last night. Starting to build a decent little cushion there for 5th. And just 4 points out of 4th right now, but Carolina has 2 games in hand. Friday's game against them is going to be big. I BELEAF!

We've got to lose - otherwise I can't see us finishing any lower than 5th.  Carolina were my big hope to overtake the Leafs since the Coyotes are just awful.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on February 18, 2015, 04:00:21 PM
Friday night is a big game for the tank! Go hurricanes go! LOL
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 19, 2015, 08:24:03 AM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 19, 2015, 09:17:58 AM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 19, 2015, 09:22:02 AM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.

And it'll probably have to be 8 as the Leafs will likely hold the tie-breaker over Edmonton.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on February 19, 2015, 09:42:22 AM
Lets gut this team now and play Marlies... top 3 pick would be so sweet... If we had 3rd pick and ya know it goes MacDavid/Eichel do Leafs go Hannifan or Strome? Not what fans want but what do you think they do?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 19, 2015, 09:50:14 AM
I can't overstate how badly they need to lose the next game. They could 2 pts out of 4th or 6 if they win..
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 19, 2015, 10:00:11 AM
I can't overstate how badly they need to lose the next game. They could 2 pts out of 4th or 6 if they win..

Actually I think you are overstating it. Realistically the Leafs are going to pick between 4-8 and the rebuild really isn't going to hinge on where they pick from that range. It's a good draft and there will be good players available regardless of where they pick. A proper rebuild is going to be a long haul regardless of who their draft pick is this year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 19, 2015, 10:05:27 AM
Quote
@reporterchris 

Kyle Dubas, speaking at Conn Smythe dinner, on #leafs: "We have to do things the right way. That may mean starting from the beginning."

Close as we've come to someone in management actually quoted on that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rebel_1812 on February 19, 2015, 10:16:37 AM
I can't overstate how badly they need to lose the next game. They could 2 pts out of 4th or 6 if they win..

Actually I think you are overstating it. Realistically the Leafs are going to pick between 4-8 and the rebuild really isn't going to hinge on where they pick from that range. It's a good draft and there will be good players available regardless of where they pick. A proper rebuild is going to be a long haul regardless of who their draft pick is this year.

That is a pessimistic attitude towards losing ;-)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 19, 2015, 10:29:54 AM
I can't overstate how badly they need to lose the next game. They could 2 pts out of 4th or 6 if they win..

Actually I think you are overstating it. Realistically the Leafs are going to pick between 4-8 and the rebuild really isn't going to hinge on where they pick from that range. It's a good draft and there will be good players available regardless of where they pick. A proper rebuild is going to be a long haul regardless of who their draft pick is this year.

That is a pessimistic attitude towards losing ;-)

Yeah. Pessimism toward pessimism.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 19, 2015, 10:56:39 AM
I can't overstate how badly they need to lose the next game. They could 2 pts out of 4th or 6 if they win..

Actually I think you are overstating it. Realistically the Leafs are going to pick between 4-8 and the rebuild really isn't going to hinge on where they pick from that range. It's a good draft and there will be good players available regardless of where they pick. A proper rebuild is going to be a long haul regardless of who their draft pick is this year.

What do you mean by long haul?  5 years?  3 years?  I only ask because I think the Leafs are in a better position today than they were at the end of JFJ's term.  There are some nice pieces in the system whereas when JFJ was let go there wasn't much.  If they can get an elite talent this year and an elite talent next year, they may be knocking on the door of respectability in year 3. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bender on February 19, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
Quote
@reporterchris 

Kyle Dubas, speaking at Conn Smythe dinner, on #leafs: "We have to do things the right way. That may mean starting from the beginning."

Close as we've come to someone in management actually quoted on that.

I want to give Kyle a hug.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 19, 2015, 11:41:35 AM
What do you mean by long haul?  5 years?  3 years?  I only ask because I think the Leafs are in a better position today than they were at the end of JFJ's term.  There are some nice pieces in the system whereas when JFJ was let go there wasn't much.  If they can get an elite talent this year and an elite talent next year, they may be knocking on the door of respectability in year 3.

The odds are very long that the Leafs draft a player who will be able to step in and be an "elite" player in their first few seasons this year. We shouldn't be gameplanning like that's a certainty. It's not impossible but realistically we should give the team at least three years to get their ducks in a row before we start having expectations for them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 19, 2015, 12:11:32 PM
What do you mean by long haul?  5 years?  3 years?  I only ask because I think the Leafs are in a better position today than they were at the end of JFJ's term.  There are some nice pieces in the system whereas when JFJ was let go there wasn't much.  If they can get an elite talent this year and an elite talent next year, they may be knocking on the door of respectability in year 3.

The odds are very long that the Leafs draft a player who will be able to step in and be an "elite" player in their first few seasons this year. We shouldn't be gameplanning like that's a certainty. It's not impossible but realistically we should give the team at least three years to get their ducks in a row before we start having expectations for them.

This is true. Outside of winning the lottery, even if they end up with a Dylan Strome, his career path is likely similar to Ryan Johansen's, which means he's probably 5 years away on draft day from making an impact.  Can't fast track a rebuild.  We fans should know that better than anyone.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 19, 2015, 12:21:39 PM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.

And it'll probably have to be 8 as the Leafs will likely hold the tie-breaker over Edmonton.

What terrible math on my part.

Even thinking of it as 8 is encouraging. At this point any team less than 10 points ahead of us is within reach. Or at least, it feels realistic that we could catch them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 19, 2015, 09:36:19 PM
Columbus wins again.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 20, 2015, 02:39:53 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  10 minutes ago
Hurricanes can pull within two points of Leafs with regulation win tonight; On Dec. 18 they were 22 points behind

Good job guys, keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chev-boyar-sky on February 20, 2015, 04:23:39 PM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.

And it'll probably have to be 8 as the Leafs will likely hold the tie-breaker over Edmonton.

What terrible math on my part.

Even thinking of it as 8 is encouraging. At this point any team less than 10 points ahead of us is within reach. Or at least, it feels realistic that we could catch them.

The only way we end up higher than 4th overall is if we win the lottery IMO.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 20, 2015, 04:55:15 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  10 minutes ago
Hurricanes can pull within two points of Leafs with regulation win tonight; On Dec. 18 they were 22 points behind

Good job guys, keep up the good work.

Wow.... just wow.  Given that Carolina is anything but a good team, that really puts into perspective just how bad this Leaf team is.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on February 20, 2015, 06:22:09 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  10 minutes ago
Hurricanes can pull within two points of Leafs with regulation win tonight; On Dec. 18 they were 22 points behind

Good job guys, keep up the good work.

That's just nuts.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bill_Berg on February 20, 2015, 06:36:47 PM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.

And it'll probably have to be 8 as the Leafs will likely hold the tie-breaker over Edmonton.

What terrible math on my part.

Even thinking of it as 8 is encouraging. At this point any team less than 10 points ahead of us is within reach. Or at least, it feels realistic that we could catch them.

The only way we end up higher than 4th overall is if we win the lottery IMO.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong!

Got to have something to cheer for!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on February 20, 2015, 06:37:53 PM
Quote
Mark Masters @markhmasters  ·  10 minutes ago
Hurricanes can pull within two points of Leafs with regulation win tonight; On Dec. 18 they were 22 points behind

Good job guys, keep up the good work.

Wow.... just wow.  Given that Carolina is anything but a good team, that really puts into perspective just how bad this Leaf team is.

The Leafs were getting unsustainably good results early on, and now getting unsustainably bad results more recently. We'll win a couple more, but with tank-effects and trade deadline movement, our course is determined. I think we can catch Arizona/Carolina.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 20, 2015, 06:42:05 PM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.

And it'll probably have to be 8 as the Leafs will likely hold the tie-breaker over Edmonton.

What terrible math on my part.

Even thinking of it as 8 is encouraging. At this point any team less than 10 points ahead of us is within reach. Or at least, it feels realistic that we could catch them.

The only way we end up higher than 4th overall is if we win the lottery IMO.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong!

I think the only player we can decisively say the Leafs can't imaginably draft this year is Eichel.  They get McDavid if they win the lottery and anybody besides Eichel could fall to them depending on where they pick and who gets chosen when.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 20, 2015, 07:06:13 PM
We're only 6 points back of the Oilers after they beat Boston.

7, to be exact.

And it'll probably have to be 8 as the Leafs will likely hold the tie-breaker over Edmonton.

What terrible math on my part.

Even thinking of it as 8 is encouraging. At this point any team less than 10 points ahead of us is within reach. Or at least, it feels realistic that we could catch them.

The only way we end up higher than 4th overall is if we win the lottery IMO.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong!

I think the only player we can decisively say the Leafs can't imaginably draft this year is Eichel.  They get McDavid if they win the lottery and anybody besides Eichel could fall to them depending on where they pick and who gets chosen when.

Just to spite you, the Leafs will win the lottery, draft 1st overall and take Lawson Crouse.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Tigger on February 20, 2015, 09:48:18 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Sherman_Tank_WW2.jpg)
(http://www.thedailymocha.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/donald-trump.jpeg)
(http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/9/7/a1466834-141-Hurri%20side%20view.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on February 22, 2015, 02:07:49 AM
The tank stalls...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 22, 2015, 09:04:07 AM
I guess it wasnt the worst time to win a game, considering the 2 pts didn't change their place in the standings at all.

This has to be my imagination at work, otherwise it would be cheating, and we all know nobody in professional sports does such a thing, but it almost feels like Leaf brass have a big 'EFFORT' dial hidden away somewhere in one their offices. They can dial it up or down before each game, depending on the outcome they are looking for that night. Crazy notion eh? 8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 22, 2015, 09:17:45 AM
Tank Nation! So about the victory but we did not expect them to lose them all.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on February 22, 2015, 12:21:17 PM
I just hope they don't go on a tear like they always do at this time of year.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rebel_1812 on February 22, 2015, 11:39:54 PM
I just hope they don't go on a tear like they always do at this time of year.

trading most of the team should help with that.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 23, 2015, 12:56:20 PM
Just since we were basically having the same conversation in 2 different threads I moved the Lupul talk over here: http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2926.0
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 24, 2015, 07:38:00 PM
A big night for the tank!!

A win by Columbus over Buffalo puts the Leafs firmly in the bottom 5 by 5 points. 
Carolina is winning 1-0 against Philadelphia, and a win puts them within 2 points of Toronto

Will Arizona EVER win another game??  Tonight would be a good start.  The Leafs desperately need 28th place to assure Strome, since this would allow a buffer in case someone above them in the standings wins the lottery.

Go Tank!!!!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 24, 2015, 09:14:34 PM
Will Arizona EVER win another game??  Tonight would be a good start.  The Leafs desperately need 28th place to assure Strome, since this would allow a buffer in case someone above them in the standings wins the lottery.

Losing 5-1.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 24, 2015, 09:32:15 PM
Will Arizona EVER win another game??  Tonight would be a good start.  The Leafs desperately need 28th place to assure Strome, since this would allow a buffer in case someone above them in the standings wins the lottery.

Losing 5-1.

On the upside, Carolina seems hellbent on passing us.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on February 24, 2015, 10:46:44 PM
Aren't the percentages for 28/27/26 all below 10%?  Seems to me that as long as we finish in one of those spots, which one doesn't make a lot of difference.  We'll never get to 30/29.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 24, 2015, 10:48:00 PM
Will Arizona EVER win another game??  Tonight would be a good start.  The Leafs desperately need 28th place to assure Strome, since this would allow a buffer in case someone above them in the standings wins the lottery.

Losing 5-1.

On the upside, Carolina seems hellbent on passing us.

They definitely look more promising right now than the Leafs do.

Edmonton also hammered out a win today.  I really believe the Oilers have a better chance of passing the Leafs than the Coyotes.  They're a pretty hopeless team in many ways.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 24, 2015, 11:01:10 PM
Aren't the percentages for 28/27/26 all below 10%?  Seems to me that as long as we finish in one of those spots, which one doesn't make a lot of difference.  We'll never get to 30/29.

28th comes with 11.5% chance of winning the lottery. 27th with 9.5%, 26th with 8.5%. That's not an enormous difference, but it could be enough to sway things in the Leafs' favour.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 24, 2015, 11:03:49 PM
Aren't the percentages for 28/27/26 all below 10%?  Seems to me that as long as we finish in one of those spots, which one doesn't make a lot of difference.  We'll never get to 30/29.

I'm not really rooting for the tank to get McDavid. I know that's a huge longshot. I'm rooting to finish as low as we can so we can guarantee Strome, and we have to finish 4th to do that. Having a team that finished higher and then leapfrogging over us because of the lottery is also something I'm worried about, especially if we finish 5th and drop to 6th because of it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 24, 2015, 11:16:14 PM
Aren't the percentages for 28/27/26 all below 10%?  Seems to me that as long as we finish in one of those spots, which one doesn't make a lot of difference.  We'll never get to 30/29.

I'm not really rooting for the tank to get McDavid. I know that's a huge longshot. I'm rooting to finish as low as we can so we can guarantee Strome, and we have to finish 4th to do that. Having a team that finished higher and then leapfrogging over us because of the lottery is also something I'm worried about, especially if we finish 5th and drop to 6th because of it.

No question the odds of dropping a spot are way higher than the odds of winning the lottery.

Odds of winning the lottery, followed by the odds of dropping one position in the draft order:

#1   20%     80%
#2   13.5%  66.5%
#3   11.5%  55%
#4   9.5%    45.5%
#5   8.5%    37%

In that #3 spot, the odds are almost 5 times higher of dropping a spot than of winning the lottery, and more likely than not to drop a position.  But the high risk of dropping a position really reinforces the need to finish as low as possible.  Having #5 turn into #6 would be such a bummer, particularly while watching a team with a better record win the lottery.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on February 25, 2015, 07:21:15 AM
There's way to many games left to get excited about a top 5 pick.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Lee-bo on February 25, 2015, 07:45:02 AM
There's way to many games left to get excited about a top 5 pick.
Not with this team there isn't. Nothing else to get excited for.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 25, 2015, 07:45:56 AM
There's way to many games left to get excited about a top 5 pick.

Getting excited about it and discussing the prospect of it are two vastly different things.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on February 25, 2015, 08:29:01 AM
Are any more trades before the deadline likely?  Winnik for a second and hopefully some others?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on February 25, 2015, 08:30:15 AM
Will Arizona EVER win another game??  Tonight would be a good start.  The Leafs desperately need 28th place to assure Strome, since this would allow a buffer in case someone above them in the standings wins the lottery.

Losing 5-1.

Arizona's tank is in better condition than ours - I'm another that can't seem them passing us.  Thank goodness for Carolina.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 25, 2015, 08:31:10 AM
Are any more trades before the deadline likely?  Winnik for a second and hopefully some others?

Winnik's pretty much 100% gone, any others would probably be in the offseason but who knows.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on February 25, 2015, 09:16:45 AM
There's way to many games left to get excited about a top 5 pick.
Not with this team there isn't. Nothing else to get excited for.

Which is exactly why you shouldn't get excited.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 25, 2015, 09:19:48 AM
Are any more trades before the deadline likely?  Winnik for a second and hopefully some others?

Winnik, maybe Jokinen, Booth, Polak and/or Holzer. Outside chance of Lupul or Bozak being moved, but, those deals are more likely happen in the summer. I'll be surprised if any of the bigger pieces are moved in the next week.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 25, 2015, 01:59:52 PM
Are any more trades before the deadline likely?  Winnik for a second and hopefully some others?

Winnik, maybe Jokinen, Booth, Polak and/or Holzer. Outside chance of Lupul or Bozak being moved, but, those deals are more likely happen in the summer. I'll be surprised if any of the bigger pieces are moved in the next week.

We can only wish....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on February 25, 2015, 04:11:52 PM
Right on cue with the Winnik trade.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 25, 2015, 10:25:15 PM
(http://giant.gfycat.com/AcclaimedTidyAxisdeer.gif)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Tigger on February 25, 2015, 10:34:49 PM
Who's that?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Captain Canuck on February 25, 2015, 10:34:56 PM
C'mon CTB as a Storm fan I HATE this garbage!  :P
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 25, 2015, 10:40:40 PM
Who's that?

He's the reason that we're all here.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 25, 2015, 10:46:49 PM
Who's that?

He's the reason that we're all here.

John Ferguson Jr.?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 25, 2015, 10:52:20 PM

All that GIF is doing is making me sad that they didn't commit to this sooner. Nope. Needed those 4 years of Bozak centering the top line to really make sure this team needed something new.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Tigger on February 25, 2015, 11:22:12 PM
Who's that?

He's the reason that we're all here.

We were to understand there'd be pie and punch?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 26, 2015, 12:05:07 AM
Pretty soft hands on that goal.  He didn't really shoot, he sort of placed the puck into the net all polite like.  He'll look good in blue and white.   8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on February 26, 2015, 12:08:37 AM
I don't know how I'd react if they win the lottery, I know it's not happening, but oh the thought...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 26, 2015, 12:13:42 AM
Are any more trades before the deadline likely?  Winnik for a second and hopefully some others?

Winnik, maybe Jokinen, Booth, Polak and/or Holzer. Outside chance of Lupul or Bozak being moved, but, those deals are more likely happen in the summer. I'll be surprised if any of the bigger pieces are moved in the next week.

Here is a little summary of what Bob McKenzie and James Mirtle were predicting today.  I hope they can get creative with things, at least before the draft.  I love the idea of having 3 or 4 first round picks in this draft... one can dream.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/02/25/bob-mckenzie-on-winnik-trade-whats-next-for-leafs/
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 26, 2015, 07:56:05 AM
Are any more trades before the deadline likely?  Winnik for a second and hopefully some others?

Winnik, maybe Jokinen, Booth, Polak and/or Holzer. Outside chance of Lupul or Bozak being moved, but, those deals are more likely happen in the summer. I'll be surprised if any of the bigger pieces are moved in the next week.

Here is a little summary of what Bob McKenzie and James Mirtle were predicting today.  I hope they can get creative with things, at least before the draft.  I love the idea of having 3 or 4 first round picks in this draft... one can dream.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/02/25/bob-mckenzie-on-winnik-trade-whats-next-for-leafs/

we currently have two which is nice. Lets hope Nonnis doesn't mess that up or else he will give us night mares
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 26, 2015, 09:32:15 PM
Why does the Leafs winning streak have to coincide with Buffalo's?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on February 26, 2015, 09:43:37 PM
Tonight is a very bad night for the tank nation. :(
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 26, 2015, 10:49:01 PM
Not even 2 wins in a row can make me upset tonight.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 28, 2015, 08:13:18 AM
Why do I think that Phil Kessel is about to become a catalyst in the undoing and ultimate destruction of tank nation? I can't shake this feeling. I need help!!!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on February 28, 2015, 09:51:38 AM
RedLeaf you are correct, If he starts to score now, we will be picking 7 or 8 in the draft. That would total wreck tank nation. Trade him"
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on February 28, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
Good news: Bobrovsky has been activated from the IR.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 28, 2015, 02:03:58 PM
Good news: Bobrovsky has been activated from the IR.

It doesn't hurt them but McElhinney was doing well for them.  2.51 GAA and .923 SV% since the All-Star Break.  Goaltending really hasn't been their problem of late.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on February 28, 2015, 06:08:11 PM
The Leafs need to study some game video of the Arizona Coyotes in order to perfect the tank. This team is heading for the top pick....
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 28, 2015, 06:41:00 PM
Jay McClement scores his 2nd goal of the game and Carolina is up 5-2.  Things are falling in to place for the Leafs to drop to 4th.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 28, 2015, 06:46:09 PM
The Leafs need to study some game video of the Arizona Coyotes in order to perfect the tank. This team is heading for the top pick....

On their way to loss 9 in a row.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 28, 2015, 08:12:29 PM
The Leafs need to study some game video of the Arizona Coyotes in order to perfect the tank. This team is heading for the top pick....

On their way to loss 9 in a row.

You would think they would start winning at some point.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 28, 2015, 08:16:33 PM
You would think they would start winning at some point.

Doubtful. They're probably going to get gutted on Monday.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on February 28, 2015, 08:21:23 PM
You would think they would start winning at some point.

Doubtful. They're probably going to get gutted on Monday.

True.  Hopefully they fill those spots with real go getters from the AHL that want to prove that they belong in the NHL.   

Also, hopefully the Leafs get gutted as well and they fill those spots with guys that are journeyman and know that this is really their last hurrah in the NHL.

Also I find your avatar unnerving for some reason.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 28, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
Doubtful. They're probably going to get gutted on Monday.

I don't know if they'll be legitimately gutted. I think Vermette and Michalek go, but, other than that, there aren't really significant pieces there I expect will be moved before the deadline. Like the Leafs, the bigger pieces are more likely to go at the draft.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on February 28, 2015, 08:31:03 PM
Doubtful. They're probably going to get gutted on Monday.

I don't know if they'll be legitimately gutted. I think Vermette and Michalek go, but, other than that, there aren't really significant pieces there I expect will be moved before the deadline. Like the Leafs, the bigger pieces are more likely to go at the draft.

I'd bet that at least one of Gagner or Yandle move. Erat too if there's any interest there. You're right that "gutted" might be a strong word there but that's more or less all of their veterans.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on February 28, 2015, 08:35:40 PM
I'd bet that at least one of Gagner or Yandle move. Erat too if there's any interest there. You're right that "gutted" might be a strong word there but that's more or less all of their veterans.

I doubt Yandle's moved. That's a prime candidate for a draft day trade because of the cap hit and the fact he still has term left. I won't be shocked if it happens, but I really don't expect it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on February 28, 2015, 09:29:55 PM
It's not Capgeek, but it's nice to have a buyout calculator again.

http://war-on-ice.com/captools.html (http://war-on-ice.com/captools.html)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on February 28, 2015, 10:16:39 PM
Logged onto nhl.com to admire the tank standings and was greeted by this.  Does the NHL know something we don't??

(http://i58.tinypic.com/xgfju1.jpg)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on February 28, 2015, 10:27:29 PM

Logged onto nhl.com to admire the tank standings and was greeted by this.  Does the NHL know something we don't??

(http://i58.tinypic.com/xgfju1.jpg)

That randomly happens to me too sometimes.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Stickytape on March 01, 2015, 08:09:34 AM
No take-backs, NHL! That 2nd pick is officially ours now, okay?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Frank E on March 01, 2015, 08:56:48 AM
Really Arizona?  Really?  9 in a row? 

I think that team is better than the Leafs'.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on March 01, 2015, 09:50:58 AM
Ottawa has won 5 in a row for a slim chance of catching a wildcard.  Rather be in the Leaf's position.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on March 01, 2015, 12:02:49 PM
I went to school in Ottawa for three years. Love the city, hate the team, but in this case, Go Ottawa Go.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 01, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
I went to school in Ottawa for three years. Love the city, hate the team, but in this case, Go Ottawa Go.

I don't so much hate the team.  I dislike the hypocrisy that goes on within the fan base and the media here.  It's always "Oh the Leafs did it, that's stupid", but then the Sens will go and do something similar and they don't have a problem with it.  Drives me nuts some days as there fan base seems to be based on the "Hate the Leafs first, then love the Sens second."  I'm not saying that Sens fans have to love the Leafs, just don't go out of your way to hate them.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on March 01, 2015, 12:14:30 PM
It's easy for the media to manipulate such a tiny fan base. Media says something, one guy hears it, he tells the other guy.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 01, 2015, 12:29:56 PM
So not to get to far ahead of ourselves, but let's say the Leafs get Dylan Strome.  Is that like getting a first overall pick in a different draft?  Let's say Strome had been available last year instead of this year, would he have gone second overall to Eckblad?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on March 01, 2015, 04:44:24 PM
I went to school in Ottawa for three years. Love the city, hate the team, but in this case, Go Ottawa Go.

I don't so much hate the team.  I dislike the hypocrisy that goes on within the fan base and the media here.  It's always "Oh the Leafs did it, that's stupid", but then the Sens will go and do something similar and they don't have a problem with it.  Drives me nuts some days as there fan base seems to be based on the "Hate the Leafs first, then love the Sens second."  I'm not saying that Sens fans have to love the Leafs, just don't go out of your way to hate them.
The Sens don't exist if they're not winning.  Never made fun of a Sen's fan team when they're doing poorly.  They disappear.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on March 01, 2015, 04:58:01 PM
Yandle traded to the Rangers. No chance Arizona pass us now. Looks like we're targetting the 4th pick at best (subject to lottery).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cw on March 01, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
So many first rounders traded already ... things could get crazy tomorrow ... some of these GMs seem to be really going for it. Can't see it being a bad thing for the Leafs.

Jokinen, Booth, Holzer maybe for fringe picks

Then see if they can pull in some real talent with Lupul, Polak, Bernier, Gardiner, Phaneuf, etc
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 01, 2015, 05:40:51 PM
So many first rounders traded already ... things could get crazy tomorrow ... some of these GMs seem to be really going for it. Can't see it being a bad thing for the Leafs.

Jokinen, Booth, Holzer maybe for fringe picks

Then see if they can pull in some real talent with Lupul, Polak, Bernier, Gardiner, Phaneuf, etc

There seem to be a lot of teams with a chance this year, so with all the moves made so far one would hope it will inspire a flurry of moves by other teams.

With regard to the Leafs' pick in the draft, it's hard to imagine anyone below passing them.  Just look at the goal differentials below the Leafs:

Columbus:  -34
Carolina:    -20
Toronto:     -19
Arizona:     -76
Edmonton: -65
Buffalo:      -89

Hopefully Carolina stays hot, and Columbus gets hot, and both start to pull away.  Honestly, I think Edmonton has a better chance of going on a run (they haven't been too bad lately) and passing the Leafs near the end.  Especially if Scrivens plays the way he did last night.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Omallley on March 01, 2015, 05:42:09 PM
So many first rounders traded already ... things could get crazy tomorrow ... some of these GMs seem to be really going for it. Can't see it being a bad thing for the Leafs.

Jokinen, Booth, Holzer maybe for fringe picks

Then see if they can pull in some real talent with Lupul, Polak, Bernier, Gardiner, Phaneuf, etc

Maybe I'm completely off base, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Panik go for a later round pick either.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on March 01, 2015, 05:49:40 PM
But if all the players that have moved so far did anyone have significant term? Anything more than a year?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on March 01, 2015, 05:57:35 PM
Not really, other than the Wpg/Buf deal. But, that wasn't a playoff deal.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on March 01, 2015, 06:02:11 PM
Well I think that'll be what prevents any of those leafs from being traded.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Tigger on March 01, 2015, 06:03:07 PM
So many first rounders traded already ... things could get crazy tomorrow ... some of these GMs seem to be really going for it. Can't see it being a bad thing for the Leafs.

Jokinen, Booth, Holzer maybe for fringe picks

Then see if they can pull in some real talent with Lupul, Polak, Bernier, Gardiner, Phaneuf, etc

Maybe I'm completely off base, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Panik go for a later round pick either.

busta and I were talking about him a little while back, he was picked off waivers so there's that issue plus he is probably worth more to the Leafs than whatever late round pick they could get.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Joe S. on March 01, 2015, 06:06:04 PM
Isn't there some rule that you can't trade a player you picked of waivers? Or you have to make him available on waivers or something like that?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 01, 2015, 06:06:50 PM
Isn't there some rule that you can't trade a player you picked of waivers? Or you have to make him available on waivers or something like that?

I think it's just that you have to make him available to anyone else who claimed him while he was on waivers the first time. I don't know how many teams claimed Panik though.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 01, 2015, 06:24:38 PM
I don't see why we would even consider moving Panik really. The best we could get is probably a 3rd and the odds of a 3rd rounder becoming as good as Panik is pretty low. He's a cheap and young forward who has a bunch of tools to contribute on a 3rd line if not higher.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 01, 2015, 06:30:12 PM
I don't see why we would even consider moving Panik really. The best we could get is probably a 3rd and the odds of a 3rd rounder becoming as good as Panik is pretty low. He's a cheap and young forward who has a bunch of tools to contribute on a 3rd line if not higher.

6' 2", 210 pounds, being paid $735K/year, and turned 24 about 3 weeks ago.  And he can do this occasionally:

http://youtu.be/6Qa6hJsB3Z0

He even beat up Peter Holland

http://youtu.be/qdM459ddhns
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on March 01, 2015, 06:32:09 PM
I don't see why we would even consider moving Panik really. The best we could get is probably a 3rd and the odds of a 3rd rounder becoming as good as Panik is pretty low. He's a cheap and young forward who has a bunch of tools to contribute on a 3rd line if not higher.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 01, 2015, 06:32:23 PM
I don't see why we would even consider moving Panik really. The best we could get is probably a 3rd and the odds of a 3rd rounder becoming as good as Panik is pretty low. He's a cheap and young forward who has a bunch of tools to contribute on a 3rd line if not higher.

Well, the argument would be the same, to some extent, as it was with Winnik or Santorelli. If you trade Panik for a 3rd, can you go out in the off-season and sign someone to provide more or less the same game who can then be flipped later on for more assets. Is Panik part of the team's long term plans? If not, how do you maximize his value to the rebuild?

I don't lean either way, personally. I don't know that it's set in stone that the best you could do is a 3rd but I also think he's someone you could sign to a reasonable contract, give some playing time to and actually see him become more valuable in the years to come.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Kessel Run on March 01, 2015, 07:20:52 PM
I don't see why we would even consider moving Panik really. The best we could get is probably a 3rd and the odds of a 3rd rounder becoming as good as Panik is pretty low. He's a cheap and young forward who has a bunch of tools to contribute on a 3rd line if not higher.

Well, the argument would be the same, to some extent, as it was with Winnik or Santorelli. If you trade Panik for a 3rd, can you go out in the off-season and sign someone to provide more or less the same game who can then be flipped later on for more assets. Is Panik part of the team's long term plans? If not, how do you maximize his value to the rebuild?

I don't lean either way, personally. I don't know that it's set in stone that the best you could do is a 3rd but I also think he's someone you could sign to a reasonable contract, give some playing time to and actually see him become more valuable in the years to come.

Exactly. He's only 24, he has room to grow.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 01, 2015, 09:18:07 PM
I think we really need Madferret to come in here and tell us that Phaneuf could never get traded for a 1st round pick so that it will happen a minute or two later.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on March 06, 2015, 04:16:44 AM
Arizona finally win though doubt we can pass them. Still playing for fourth worst record at present.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on March 06, 2015, 04:53:08 AM
Source: http://oilersnation.com/2015/2/8/how-good-is-dylan-strome (http://oilersnation.com/2015/2/8/how-good-is-dylan-strome)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 06, 2015, 07:42:40 AM
wow Arizona does have a pulse. Any shot they can go on a run and pass us? Keep wearing the throwbacks
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: freer on March 06, 2015, 07:43:09 AM
So it looks like either one will be a good pick us them
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on March 06, 2015, 08:10:17 AM
wow Arizona does have a pulse. Any shot they can go on a run and pass us? Keep wearing the throwbacks

Highly doubtful. This Leaf team, at least I my mind, finally appear to be getting Horacheck's system. I don't see them sitting inside the top five come draft day. I'm pretty sure Arizona will find a way.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on March 06, 2015, 08:26:13 AM
So say we get one of Marner or Strome.  Would you play them one more year in junior or bring them up to the Leafs?   They can't play for the Marlies.  Are these two kids ready for prime time?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Arn on March 06, 2015, 08:32:18 AM
  • McDavid is around 3.30 PPG when playing with Strome, he is 1.91 PPG without Strome.
  • Strome is 2.65 PPG with McDavid, he is 1.61 PPG without McDavid.
Source: http://oilersnation.com/2015/2/8/how-good-is-dylan-strome (http://oilersnation.com/2015/2/8/how-good-is-dylan-strome)

So can we win the lottery then trade Kessel for Buffalo's first and get them both?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 08:48:14 AM
So say we get one of Marner or Strome.  Would you play them one more year in junior or bring them up to the Leafs?   They can't play for the Marlies.  Are these two kids ready for prime time?

My natural instinct would be to say send them back. The teams been preaching patience with all their other prospects the last little bit so it would be in line with that philosophy. The problem of course is that they're both dominating the OHL right now. But Strome could probably use a full year in the OHL where he's the top dog on his team. And Marner would probably be sent back for the same reason Jonathan Drouin was.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 06, 2015, 01:22:40 PM
So say we get one of Marner or Strome.  Would you play them one more year in junior or bring them up to the Leafs?   They can't play for the Marlies.  Are these two kids ready for prime time?

My natural instinct would be to say send them back. The teams been preaching patience with all their other prospects the last little bit so it would be in line with that philosophy. The problem of course is that they're both dominating the OHL right now. But Strome could probably use a full year in the OHL where he's the top dog on his team. And Marner would probably be sent back for the same reason Jonathan Drouin was.

And bringing up good young players might ruin next year's tank effort, which will likely be a better one than this year.

At this point, seven points separate Toronto and NJ, so even if they go on a run I can't imagine the Leafs finish out of the bottom 6.  In the unlikely event that someone above them in the standings wins the lottery, the Leafs' worst case scenario/position in this draft will very likely be 7th.

The top 4 are pretty much indisputable.  Assuming Marner goes in the 5-spot, what two players round out the top 7?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 02:18:33 PM
The top 4 are pretty much indisputable.  Assuming Marner goes in the 5-spot, what two players round out the top 7?

It'll likely go McDavid-Eichel-Hanifin. Then Strome, Marner, and Crouse will be the next 3 picks in some order. After that it's a mess. A lot of good players but no real consensus on where they'll go.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 06, 2015, 02:19:57 PM
What is so wrong with Crouse? I have never seen him play and living in states I don't have too much exposure to the juniors. But I heara  lot of people rip him??
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 02:21:01 PM
Someone combined the top-30 rankings of 6 major sources so you can view them all at a glance and see how things average out:

http://jetsnation.ca/2015/3/5/aggregating-draft-rankings
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 02:21:37 PM
What is so wrong with Crouse? I have never seen him play and living in states I don't have too much exposure to the juniors. But I heara  lot of people rip him??

His offensive numbers are pretty underwhelming. Everything else about his game is pretty good though. This is a previous post I made about him:

Corey Pronman actually wrote an article about Crouse today explaining his stance on him:

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nhl-draft/post/_/id/709/why-lawson-crouse-is-a-top-10-prospect

It's insider-only, but I'll post a couple of paragraphs:

Quote
Crouse has many positives to his game other than “size.” He skates well in general, and very well for a big man. The same can be said for his puck skills, even if he’s not a dynamic offensive player. He’s a very advanced two-way thinker, who is one of the best defensive forwards available in this year’s draft class. And yes, he has an elite physical game as well due to his size, strength, work ethic and physicality that allows him to win a lot of battles.

...

In the case of Crouse, the scouting analysis shows us that we have a winger whose skating and puck skills are good (but not great), is great defensively, has high-end hockey sense and has an elite physical game. That combination of skills projects a reasonable ceiling of that player being an above-average scoring NHLer, who clearly isn’t top-line caliber in scoring, but plays very well versus the opponent’s best forwards, and can be one of a team’s top penalty killers. If that outcome is realized, this is a very valuable asset for any NHL team, and certainly any of the teams looking to be picking in the top 10 of this year's draft.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 06, 2015, 02:24:57 PM
thanks Carlton
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on March 06, 2015, 02:31:41 PM
What is so wrong with Crouse? I have never seen him play and living in states I don't have too much exposure to the juniors. But I heara  lot of people rip him??

His offensive numbers are pretty underwhelming. Everything else about his game is pretty good though.

Underwhelming is an understatement.  He has 39 points in 48 games.  He has 66 points in 111 games over two seasons in the OHL.  I only went as far back as the 2000 NHL entry draft but I don't think there has ever been a forward who has scored below PPG in his draft year taken in the top 10 from any of the three Canadian Junior leagues.

If a guy can't score in Junior hockey, he's not going to score at the professional level.  Whoever gets Crouse is going to get an NHL player but he's not going to be anything special.  In a draft that has an exceptional player (and maybe 2 of them) as well as having some fantastic depth, I find it disappointing that Crouse gets remotely mentioned above guys like Strome/Marner at any time.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 06, 2015, 02:39:15 PM
What is so wrong with Crouse? I have never seen him play and living in states I don't have too much exposure to the juniors. But I heara  lot of people rip him??

His offensive numbers are pretty underwhelming. Everything else about his game is pretty good though.

Underwhelming is an understatement.  He has 39 points in 48 games.  He has 66 points in 111 games over two seasons in the OHL.  I only went as far back as the 2000 NHL entry draft but I don't think there has ever been a forward who has scored below PPG in his draft year taken in the top 10 from any of the three Canadian Junior leagues.

If a guy can't score in Junior hockey, he's not going to score at the professional level.  Whoever gets Crouse is going to get an NHL player but he's not going to be anything special.  In a draft that has an exceptional player (and maybe 2 of them) as well as having some fantastic depth, I find it disappointing that Crouse gets remotely mentioned above guys like Strome/Marner at any time.

which is what is puzzling. In a draft that is raved about for being so deep how is a guy like that ranked in top 10? He has to be excpetional at something??
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on March 06, 2015, 02:42:12 PM
What is so wrong with Crouse? I have never seen him play and living in states I don't have too much exposure to the juniors. But I heara  lot of people rip him??

His offensive numbers are pretty underwhelming. Everything else about his game is pretty good though.

Underwhelming is an understatement.  He has 39 points in 48 games.  He has 66 points in 111 games over two seasons in the OHL.  I only went as far back as the 2000 NHL entry draft but I don't think there has ever been a forward who has scored below PPG in his draft year taken in the top 10 from any of the three Canadian Junior leagues.

If a guy can't score in Junior hockey, he's not going to score at the professional level.  Whoever gets Crouse is going to get an NHL player but he's not going to be anything special.  In a draft that has an exceptional player (and maybe 2 of them) as well as having some fantastic depth, I find it disappointing that Crouse gets remotely mentioned above guys like Strome/Marner at any time.

I went back further and found Boyd Devereaux, 6th overall in 1996 (58 in 66 GP OHL); Mike Rupp, 9th overall in 1998 (27 in 64 GP - why the heck was he 9th overall? Terrible draft I suppose), Manny Malhotra, 7th overall in 1998 (51 in 57 GP), Kris Beech, 7th overall in 1999 (67 in 68 GP).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 02:43:11 PM
If a guy can't score in Junior hockey, he's not going to score at the professional level.  Whoever gets Crouse is going to get an NHL player but he's not going to be anything special.  In a draft that has an exceptional player (and maybe 2 of them) as well as having some fantastic depth, I find it disappointing that Crouse gets remotely mentioned above guys like Strome/Marner at any time.

ISS has him 3rd over Hanifin too. Crazy.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cw on March 06, 2015, 02:52:01 PM
So say we get one of Marner or Strome.  Would you play them one more year in junior or bring them up to the Leafs?   They can't play for the Marlies.  Are these two kids ready for prime time?

My natural instinct would be to say send them back. The teams been preaching patience with all their other prospects the last little bit so it would be in line with that philosophy. The problem of course is that they're both dominating the OHL right now. But Strome could probably use a full year in the OHL where he's the top dog on his team. And Marner would probably be sent back for the same reason Jonathan Drouin was.

And bringing up good young players might ruin next year's tank effort, which will likely be a better one than this year.

At this point, seven points separate Toronto and NJ, so even if they go on a run I can't imagine the Leafs finish out of the bottom 6.  In the unlikely event that someone above them in the standings wins the lottery, the Leafs' worst case scenario/position in this draft will very likely be 7th.

The top 4 are pretty much indisputable.  Assuming Marner goes in the 5-spot, what two players round out the top 7?

A fair amount of consensus these are commonly the top 5:
1. Connor McDavid
2. Jack Eichel
3. Noah Hanifin
4. Dylan Strome
5. Mitch Marner

After that, these three pop up a lot in the top 7:
6. Zach Werenski
7. Lawson Crouse
8. Mathew Barzal

Darn good chance one of those top 8 guys gets picked by the Leafs

Beyond that, I've seen these guys crack the top 7 more than once:
Ivan Provorov
Pavel Zacha
Oliver Kylington
Jeremy Roy
Mikko Rantanen
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 06, 2015, 02:57:26 PM
It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for a team like the Leafs to add a forward who sounds like he could be a perennial Selke candidate.  It would certainly send a message that the club is interested in playing team defense.  And -- dare I say it -- it might actually allow you to keep a guy like Kessel on the roster. nevermindthat
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 03:04:56 PM
It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for a team like the Leafs to add a forward who sounds like he could be a perennial Selke candidate.  It would certainly send a message that the club is interested in playing team defense.  And -- dare I say it -- it might actually allow you to keep a guy like Kessel on the roster. nevermindthat

Perennial Selke candidates still score 60-70 points a season. Very, very unlikely Crouse can produce those types of numbers in the NHL.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 06, 2015, 03:07:46 PM
It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for a team like the Leafs to add a forward who sounds like he could be a perennial Selke candidate.  It would certainly send a message that the club is interested in playing team defense.  And -- dare I say it -- it might actually allow you to keep a guy like Kessel on the roster. nevermindthat

Perennial Selke candidates still score 60-70 points a season. Very, very unlikely Crouse can produce those types of numbers in the NHL.

I knew that would be brought up, but that just tells you about how the Selke is misvoted.  Trophies aside, let's say Crouse has an upside that puts him among the best defensive forwards in the league -- great on FOs, on PK.  If we pick, say, 6/7/8 ... he could be the best choice.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 06, 2015, 03:11:10 PM
It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for a team like the Leafs to add a forward who sounds like he could be a perennial Selke candidate.  It would certainly send a message that the club is interested in playing team defense.  And -- dare I say it -- it might actually allow you to keep a guy like Kessel on the roster. nevermindthat

Or regardless, just if he becomes a good pro and is the best available choice I think that's the way to go. I get the sense that a lot of the push to get into the top five here is from people who want to "jump start" the rebuild or whatever which is really just a coded way of saying that they don't really have the patience for the team to do it right.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 03:19:48 PM
I get the sense that a lot of the push to get into the top five here is from people who want to "jump start" the rebuild or whatever which is really just a coded way of saying that they don't really have the patience for the team to do it right.

The push to get into the top five is so the team has a chance at drafting a better player than they would at 6-7-8. Looking at it in any other way is pretty odd in my opinion.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cw on March 06, 2015, 03:25:10 PM
It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for a team like the Leafs to add a forward who sounds like he could be a perennial Selke candidate.  It would certainly send a message that the club is interested in playing team defense.  And -- dare I say it -- it might actually allow you to keep a guy like Kessel on the roster. nevermindthat

They may need a couple of franchise players if Kessel & Rielly are not or don't pan out.

At this juncture, I'd be inclined to swing a little for the fences - until they secure those franchise players to build around.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 06, 2015, 03:28:26 PM
I knew that would be brought up, but that just tells you about how the Selke is misvoted.  Trophies aside, let's say Crouse has an upside that puts him among the best defensive forwards in the league -- great on FOs, on PK.  If we pick, say, 6/7/8 ... he could be the best choice.

If we're at 6/7/8 (particularly say 8 ) then I could stomach a Crouse selection. He might not be my personal pick there, but if Hunter & co. say so then I won't judge. It's only if we pick him over a Strome or Marner that I'd be livid. And while the Selke voting may be a bit off, almost all of the very best defensive forwards in the NHL still have very high offensive skills. Things like high hockey sense, elite skating, and puck moving abilities are transferable to both ends of the ice. Can you name the best defensive forwards who score under say 40 points? I'd still probably take Hossa/Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron over them even strictly in a defensive-manner.

At the very, very best, Crouse likely projects to a David Backes type player. 50-60 points, big, mean, and very good defensively. Backes has the advantage of being a centre though, which Crouse is not. I wonder if maybe that's something a NHL team tries to change, as centres obviously carry much more defensive responsibilities. And while that projection definitely sounds awesome, I'd say it's more likely he turns into a Daniel Winnik-type player than Backes. And that's obviously the rub.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 06, 2015, 03:29:51 PM
The push to get into the top five is so the team has a chance at drafting a better player than they would at 6-7-8. Looking at it in any other way is pretty odd in my opinion.

I really think that the sort of amped up rhetoric around the relative importance of picking 6th vs. 5th is about the sort of impatience I'm talking about and the fact that, as we're discussing, those top five are the ones who are seen as having the most star potential in the draft. I just remember virtually the same thing in 2008 where picking in the top 5 was seen to be of such crucial import that it sparked what ended up being a pretty terrible trade on the Leafs part. Realistically good players are going to be available at #6 and the difference won't be huge in terms of where the team is 3 or 4 years from now.

But I guess I could have also thrown in that I hope the Leafs draft #1 if that would have clarified things.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 06, 2015, 04:35:00 PM
I knew that would be brought up, but that just tells you about how the Selke is misvoted.  Trophies aside, let's say Crouse has an upside that puts him among the best defensive forwards in the league -- great on FOs, on PK.  If we pick, say, 6/7/8 ... he could be the best choice.

If we're at 6/7/8 (particularly say 8 ) then I could stomach a Crouse selection. He might not be my personal pick there, but if Hunter & co. say so then I won't judge. It's only if we pick him over a Strome or Marner that I'd be livid. And while the Selke voting may be a bit off, almost all of the very best defensive forwards in the NHL still have very high offensive skills. Things like high hockey sense, elite skating, and puck moving abilities are transferable to both ends of the ice. Can you name the best defensive forwards who score under say 40 points? I'd still probably take Hossa/Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron over them even strictly in a defensive-manner.

At the very, very best, Crouse likely projects to a David Backes type player. 50-60 points, big, mean, and very good defensively. Backes has the advantage of being a centre though, which Crouse is not. I wonder if maybe that's something a NHL team tries to change, as centres obviously carry much more defensive responsibilities. And while that projection definitely sounds awesome, I'd say it's more likely he turns into a Daniel Winnik-type player than Backes. And that's obviously the rub.

Points taken, as is cw's.  I don't know anything about Crouse other than what I've just read here.  I just wanted to make the point that having a really good defensive forward might be more valuable to this club than, say, another skilled puck-moving defenseman.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on March 06, 2015, 04:36:42 PM
The push to get into the top five is so the team has a chance at drafting a better player than they would at 6-7-8. Looking at it in any other way is pretty odd in my opinion.

I really think that the sort of amped up rhetoric around the relative importance of picking 6th vs. 5th is about the sort of impatience I'm talking about and the fact that, as we're discussing, those top five are the ones who are seen as having the most star potential in the draft. I just remember virtually the same thing in 2008 where picking in the top 5 was seen to be of such crucial import that it sparked what ended up being a pretty terrible trade on the Leafs part. Realistically good players are going to be available at #6 and the difference won't be huge in terms of where the team is 3 or 4 years from now.

But I guess I could have also thrown in that I hope the Leafs draft #1 if that would have clarified things.

Yes. That would have clarified your opinion. It's McDavid or bust. Get with the program.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on March 06, 2015, 04:45:30 PM
You know what I find funny.  Gauthier gets maligned as a somewhat not great 1st round player.  I'm really struggling to see what the big benefit of Crouse is over Gauthier.  I think they both max out as 3rd line players.  Gauthier a little more for his superior defense and faceoff prowess and Crouse for more of his physicality.

The thing is, Gauthier was a late round pick while Crouse is going to go in the top 10.  Again, stay away.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on March 06, 2015, 04:48:23 PM
The push to get into the top five is so the team has a chance at drafting a better player than they would at 6-7-8. Looking at it in any other way is pretty odd in my opinion.

I really think that the sort of amped up rhetoric around the relative importance of picking 6th vs. 5th is about the sort of impatience I'm talking about and the fact that, as we're discussing, those top five are the ones who are seen as having the most star potential in the draft. I just remember virtually the same thing in 2008 where picking in the top 5 was seen to be of such crucial import that it sparked what ended up being a pretty terrible trade on the Leafs part. Realistically good players are going to be available at #6 and the difference won't be huge in terms of where the team is 3 or 4 years from now.

But I guess I could have also thrown in that I hope the Leafs draft #1 if that would have clarified things.

They are no guarantees in the draft but there is, at least to me, a decent difference between the top 5 guys in the draft and the guys who are going to fall into the 5-12 range.  I think my preference for the Leafs drafting there is more that having better assets is the key to a successful rebuild.  One draft sure as hell isn't going to get the Leafs there but a drafting a team full of Kadri's isn't going to do it either.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 06, 2015, 05:09:02 PM
They are no guarantees in the draft but there is, at least to me, a decent difference between the top 5 guys in the draft and the guys who are going to fall into the 5-12 range.  I think my preference for the Leafs drafting there is more that having better assets is the key to a successful rebuild.  One draft sure as hell isn't going to get the Leafs there but a drafting a team full of Kadri's isn't going to do it either.

Well, not to belabor the point but weren't people here at the time all upset with drafting Kadri because it meant the team missed out on drafting Brayden Schenn?

I think in any draft once you move out of what is really the elite, agreed upon tier there's not much to fuss over and, really, that's the top 3. ISS has Crouse really high. So does CSB(above Strome and Marner). So I'm not inclined to kill myself about the differences between picking 5th and 6th without being 100% that the difference will result in a different player being picked.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on March 06, 2015, 05:43:32 PM
You know what I find funny.  Gauthier gets maligned as a somewhat not great 1st round player.  I'm really struggling to see what the big benefit of Crouse is over Gauthier.  I think they both max out as 3rd line players.  Gauthier a little more for his superior defense and faceoff prowess and Crouse for more of his physicality.

The thing is, Gauthier was a late round pick while Crouse is going to go in the top 10.  Again, stay away.

I was thinking the same thing. The write-ups about Crouse make him sound like a more physical, winger version of Gauthier - which is great and all, but, that's still late 1st round type skill level.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Frank E on March 06, 2015, 05:54:17 PM
You know what I find funny.  Gauthier gets maligned as a somewhat not great 1st round player.  I'm really struggling to see what the big benefit of Crouse is over Gauthier.  I think they both max out as 3rd line players.  Gauthier a little more for his superior defense and faceoff prowess and Crouse for more of his physicality.

The thing is, Gauthier was a late round pick while Crouse is going to go in the top 10.  Again, stay away.

I was thinking the same thing. The write-ups about Crouse make him sound like a more physical, winger version of Gauthier - which is great and all, but, that's still late 1st round type skill level.

If the "experts" have Crouse rated in the top 10, is it possible that y'all just haven't seen enough of his game?

I'm not advocating for taking him or anything, but have we already decided that he's a bad pick in that top 10?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: RedLeaf on March 06, 2015, 05:59:54 PM
You know what I find funny.  Gauthier gets maligned as a somewhat not great 1st round player.  I'm really struggling to see what the big benefit of Crouse is over Gauthier.  I think they both max out as 3rd line players.  Gauthier a little more for his superior defense and faceoff prowess and Crouse for more of his physicality.

The thing is, Gauthier was a late round pick while Crouse is going to go in the top 10.  Again, stay away.

I was thinking the same thing. The write-ups about Crouse make him sound like a more physical, winger version of Gauthier - which is great and all, but, that's still late 1st round type skill level.

If the "experts" have Crouse rated in the top 10, is it possible that y'all just haven't seen enough of his game?

I'm not advocating for taking him or anything, but have we already decided that he's a bad pick in that top 10?

I dont like his name. It just doesn't sit well with me. Whats a Crouse anyway?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on March 06, 2015, 09:18:01 PM
You know what I find funny.  Gauthier gets maligned as a somewhat not great 1st round player.  I'm really struggling to see what the big benefit of Crouse is over Gauthier.  I think they both max out as 3rd line players.  Gauthier a little more for his superior defense and faceoff prowess and Crouse for more of his physicality.

The thing is, Gauthier was a late round pick while Crouse is going to go in the top 10.  Again, stay away.

I was thinking the same thing. The write-ups about Crouse make him sound like a more physical, winger version of Gauthier - which is great and all, but, that's still late 1st round type skill level.

If the "experts" have Crouse rated in the top 10, is it possible that y'all just haven't seen enough of his game?

I'm not advocating for taking him or anything, but have we already decided that he's a bad pick in that top 10?

I dont like his name. It just doesn't sit well with me. Whats a Crouse anyway?
(http://i-cdn.embed.ly/1/display?key=fd92ebbc52fc43fb98f69e50e7893c13&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-a.ak.instagram.com%2Fhphotos-ak-xaf1%2Ft51.2885-15%2F11022891_1379238249062496_1008760998_n.jpg)
A baby Leaf fan?

Source: https://instagram.com/lawcrouse/ (https://instagram.com/lawcrouse/)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: bustaheims on March 06, 2015, 10:16:05 PM
If the "experts" have Crouse rated in the top 10, is it possible that y'all just haven't seen enough of his game?

I'm not advocating for taking him or anything, but have we already decided that he's a bad pick in that top 10?

It could be, but it could also be a situation similar to Luke Schenn, in that his advanced physical development make his play look better and is leading the scouts to feel his ceiling is higher than it really is.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on March 07, 2015, 12:22:30 PM
Maybe some realize that even a player who can score like Kessel end up minus players because hitting, checking, defence, etcetera are actually valuable contributions?   
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 07, 2015, 11:02:05 PM
Idea: What if we ship the lot of them off to the high-energy particle physics supercollider in Switzerland, pack half of them into a capsule, half into another, fire each around the tunnel in opposite directions at incredible speed, and when they crash into each other halfway around see if it creates antimatter or dark energy or something like that? 

It's a twofer: Fast-tracks the rebuild, and advances basic knowledge about the cosmos.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 08, 2015, 01:18:08 AM
Idea: What if we ship the lot of them off to the high-energy particle physics supercollider in Switzerland, pack half of them into a capsule, half into another, fire each around the tunnel in opposite directions at incredible speed, and when they crash into each other halfway around see if it creates antimatter or dark energy or something like that? 

It's a twofer: Fast-tracks the rebuild, and advances basic knowledge about the cosmos.

Nice idea, but I'm betting you could only get them to coast.   :P
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 08, 2015, 11:03:40 AM

Idea: What if we ship the lot of them off to the high-energy particle physics supercollider in Switzerland, pack half of them into a capsule, half into another, fire each around the tunnel in opposite directions at incredible speed, and when they crash into each other halfway around see if it creates antimatter or dark energy or something like that? 

It's a twofer: Fast-tracks the rebuild, and advances basic knowledge about the cosmos.

Nice idea, but I'm betting you could only get them to coast.   :P

Dammit you're right. I hadn't figured their immense inertial mass into my calculations.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Stickytape on March 08, 2015, 11:28:17 AM
Looking forward, there are a lot of guaranteed points to go around in the basement over the next week and a half:

3/8: Carolina @ Edmonton
3/10: Columbus @ Carolina
3/11: Buffalo @ Toronto
3/13: Edmonton @ Columbus
3/15: Carolina @ Columbus
3/16: Toronto @ Edmonton
3/18: Columbus @ Edmonton
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 08, 2015, 02:12:25 PM
Kadri sent home from the team meeting today.  Wonder if he was driving a tank?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Strangelove on March 08, 2015, 02:26:03 PM
Kadri sent home from the team meeting today.  Wonder if he was driving a tank?

I just miiiiiiight have seen him and Rielly at a certain club late last night. And they just might have been having a little too much fun.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on March 08, 2015, 02:32:47 PM
Looking forward, there are a lot of guaranteed points to go around in the basement over the next week and a half:

3/8: Carolina @ Edmonton
3/10: Columbus @ Carolina
3/11: Buffalo @ Toronto
3/13: Edmonton @ Columbus
3/15: Carolina @ Columbus
3/16: Toronto @ Edmonton
3/18: Columbus @ Edmonton

Heres hoping for lots of overtime wins.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on March 08, 2015, 02:44:43 PM
Kadri sent home from the team meeting today.  Wonder if he was driving a tank?

Time change.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 08, 2015, 03:15:49 PM
Kadri sent home from the team meeting today.  Wonder if he was driving a tank?

Time change.

That might be the case, but with smart phones, computers etc making the change for you, it would be a pretty poor excuse.  Especially when everyone else made it on time.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 08, 2015, 03:18:22 PM
Kadri sent home from the team meeting today.  Wonder if he was driving a tank?

Time change.

That might be the case, but with smart phones, computers etc making the change for you, it would be a pretty poor excuse.  Especially when everyone else made it on time.

I betcha it was that pesky land shark.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 04:26:26 PM
Ugh, looks like Carolina can't even beat Edmonton.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on March 08, 2015, 04:33:39 PM
Ugh, looks like Carolina can't even beat Edmonton.

Only losing 3-2 now. Come on 'Canes!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on March 08, 2015, 04:41:09 PM
3-3
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 04:52:19 PM
Go Canes Go!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 04:57:31 PM
Invalid Tweet ID
Semin scores a crazy goal, on his stomach and goes behind his back.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: L K on March 08, 2015, 05:06:40 PM
Carolina up 4-3.  Edmonton's tank is better than Carolina's.

It is now 6-3 Carolina.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 05:19:34 PM
Carolina up 4-3.  Edmonton's tank is better than Carolina's.

It is now 6-3 Carolina.

Holy crap. I'll take full credit for this.

(really hoping I didn't just reverse-jinx it)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: caveman on March 08, 2015, 05:23:01 PM
an overtime win by Carolina would be cool...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 05:38:21 PM
Carolina makes it 7-4 after an empty netter. Game over.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 08, 2015, 05:42:22 PM
Back in 4th!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: caveman on March 09, 2015, 08:29:40 AM
4th would be a good position to draft from...any move to 3rd or 2nd will take some luck...but no winning streaks !!  8)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on March 09, 2015, 09:22:19 AM
Back in 4th!

So it looks like this is about as low as they can realistically fall since they're still 8 points ahead of Arizona.  Although I've learned never to say never when it comes to the Leafs.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 09, 2015, 09:47:54 AM
As much as we need a center I would love to see hannifan fall to us somehow. This kid should be a heck of a pro..
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: cw on March 09, 2015, 09:49:05 AM
4th would be a good position to draft from...any move to 3rd or 2nd will take some luck...but no winning streaks !!  8)

If the Leafs went pointless in their last 16 and Edmonton and Buffalo carried on playing their season average .320 to .350 hockey, they still wouldn't pass the Leafs.

They have a better chance of being overtaken by the Coyotes mathematically but since the deadline, Arizona dumped their better players and are playing around .100 hockey ... so that looks pretty grim too.

4th looks most likely with about a 45% chance they'll remain there after the lottery and a 9.5% chance they'll get McDavid.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on March 09, 2015, 09:50:37 AM
As much as we need a center I would love to see hannifan fall to us somehow. This kid should be a heck of a pro..

He would be the disappointing defenceman the Leafs will likely draft :)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 09, 2015, 09:51:58 AM
As much as we need a center I would love to see hannifan fall to us somehow. This kid should be a heck of a pro..

He would be the disappointing defenceman the Leafs will likely draft :)

so why disapointing?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TML fan on March 09, 2015, 09:53:01 AM
As much as we need a center I would love to see hannifan fall to us somehow. This kid should be a heck of a pro..

He would be the disappointing defenceman the Leafs will likely draft :)

so why disapointing?

Because Maple Leafs
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Boston Leaf on March 09, 2015, 09:55:02 AM
As much as we need a center I would love to see hannifan fall to us somehow. This kid should be a heck of a pro..

He would be the disappointing defenceman the Leafs will likely draft :)

so why disapointing?

Because Maple Leafs

hahaha I get it
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Mostar on March 09, 2015, 10:07:29 AM
4th would be a good position to draft from...any move to 3rd or 2nd will take some luck...but no winning streaks !!  8)

If the Leafs went pointless in their last 16 and Edmonton and Buffalo carried on playing their season average .320 to .350 hockey, they still wouldn't pass the Leafs.

They have a better chance of being overtaken by the Coyotes mathematically but since the deadline, Arizona dumped their better players and are playing around .100 hockey ... so that looks pretty grim too.

4th looks most likely with about a 45% chance they'll remain there after the lottery and a 9.5% chance they'll get McDavid.

Hard to believe there are teams having worse seasons than the leafs.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on March 09, 2015, 10:40:45 AM
Hard to believe that at week 10, this team was 3 or 4 points from first overall.

The Leafs have to have the worst record overall since that point, right?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: herman on March 09, 2015, 12:24:39 PM
TorStar: Puck possession helps predict playoff chances, analytics suggest | link (http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2015/03/05/puck-possession-helps-predict-playoff-chances-analytics-suggest.html)

Quote
This should not be too surprising. As many studies have demonstrated, possession metrics aren’t perfect, but they do pretty well at predicting a team’s future record. Moreover, in this case, we’re talking about teams that have roughly the same number of points over the first 60 games.

If a poor possession team has generated the same record as a good possession team over the first 60 games, which seems more likely to be able to step up its play down the stretch? A team that has built its record on goaltending and shooting probably doesn’t have much room to go up in those categories, and it’s very rare for a team to suddenly start generating more shots.

A good possession team, meanwhile, must not have had as good goaltending or shooting (or else it would have had a better record), and so is more likely to have room to improve its play in those areas.

I don't read the Star for Hockey anymore, but this did pop up and it was a good point.

Also:
Horachek is totally on board.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Al14 on March 09, 2015, 01:36:44 PM
As much as we need a center I would love to see hannifan fall to us somehow. This kid should be a heck of a pro..

He would be the disappointing defenceman the Leafs will likely draft :)

so why disapointing?

Because we are in desperate need for a 1st line centre!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on March 09, 2015, 02:53:46 PM
So say we get one of Marner or Strome.  Would you play them one more year in junior or bring them up to the Leafs?   They can't play for the Marlies.  Are these two kids ready for prime time?

My natural instinct would be to say send them back. The teams been preaching patience with all their other prospects the last little bit so it would be in line with that philosophy. The problem of course is that they're both dominating the OHL right now. But Strome could probably use a full year in the OHL where he's the top dog on his team. And Marner would probably be sent back for the same reason Jonathan Drouin was.

Thanks Carlton - Just saw this. 

I think I would agree to give them each one more year in Junior.  I just wonder what more they have to prove at Junior levels - it could only be worse...so that's why I ask the question. 

That being said, it'd be nice for Nylander to make the Leafs next year (2015-16), with Strome/Marner hopefully coming in the year after (2016-2017).   Build a constant yearly entry for each of the prime prospects.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 09, 2015, 03:02:01 PM
I think I would agree to give them each one more year in Junior.  I just wonder what more they have to prove at Junior levels - it could only be worse...so that's why I ask the question.

I thought about it even more after I posted and I do think that it could benefit Strome quite a bit. His numbers are obviously inflated a tad because of the fact that he's playing on the same team as McDavid (but not on the same line). Although he still performed very well when McDavid was injured/at the WJCs. But it'd just be a little weird to have a player like Strome end his OHL career without ever actually being the go-to player on his team. Having to be the guy for the Otters next season would probably be a very valuable experience.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: pmrules on March 09, 2015, 04:28:12 PM
I think I would agree to give them each one more year in Junior.  I just wonder what more they have to prove at Junior levels - it could only be worse...so that's why I ask the question.

I thought about it even more after I posted and I do think that it could benefit Strome quite a bit. His numbers are obviously inflated a tad because of the fact that he's playing on the same team as McDavid (but not on the same line). Although he still performed very well when McDavid was injured/at the WJCs. But it'd just be a little weird to have a player like Strome end his OHL career without ever actually being the go-to player on his team. Having to be the guy for the Otters next season would probably be a very valuable experience.

Fair enough...what about Marner?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Rob on March 09, 2015, 04:37:37 PM
I don't know, but I can't remember there being a case where a player was left too long in junior. 
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 09, 2015, 04:40:36 PM
I don't know, but I can't remember there being a case where a player was left too long in junior.

That's because if a player is brought up early and fails people attribute it to being brought up early whereas if a player is left in junior and fails, people don't attribute it to being left in junior.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on March 09, 2015, 06:56:09 PM
Do I hear Tyler Biggs being mentioned?
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on March 10, 2015, 12:53:41 AM
Well, Arizona managed to get a point against Nashville.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Al14 on March 10, 2015, 08:22:57 AM
Well, Arizona managed to get a point against Nashville.

Damn you Arizona, you should have beat Nashville for us!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Jolly good show chaps on March 10, 2015, 03:31:01 PM
Here's hoping Carolina beat Columbus in a shootout tonight.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on March 10, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Here's hoping Carolina beat Columbus in a shootout tonight.

OT, we want teams to get ROWs.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: sickbeast on March 10, 2015, 06:46:47 PM
Big night for the tank nation tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Kessel Run on March 10, 2015, 09:35:21 PM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 10, 2015, 10:05:14 PM
Here's hoping Carolina beat Columbus in a shootout tonight.

I blame tonight on you for not calling the OT win. Still, 3-point night!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Stickytape on March 10, 2015, 10:48:37 PM
Let's hope for a repeat on Sunday!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 08:25:50 AM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 11, 2015, 09:59:44 AM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.

It frightens me that even if the Leafs miraculously finish as low as the 3rd worst record, there's a greater chance of any one of the 5 best teams that failed to make the playoffs winning the lottery (cumulative 12.0% chance) than of the Leafs winning it (11.5% chance).
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 11, 2015, 10:05:00 AM
It frightens me that even if the Leafs miraculously finish as low as the 3rd worst record, there's a greater chance of any one of the 5 best teams that failed to make the playoffs winning the lottery (cumulative 12.0% chance) than of the Leafs winning it (11.5% chance).

Everybody knows that the lottery winner will be whatever position the Leafs vacate on the final day of the season.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Nik the Trik on March 11, 2015, 10:10:05 AM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.

But that's sort of the point. Why reward teams for tanking at all? I mean, I agree that this is a half-measure but they should really almost weight it the other way, making it more likely for teams that put in an honest effort to be rewarded.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 11, 2015, 12:11:33 PM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.

But that's sort of the point. Why reward teams for tanking at all? I mean, I agree that this is a half-measure but they should really almost weight it the other way, making it more likely for teams that put in an honest effort to be rewarded.

I'm becoming more and more of a fan of every non-playoff team getting one ball in the drum.  Finish last and you're still guaranteed second pick, which ain't so bad either.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Deebo on March 11, 2015, 12:14:21 PM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.

But that's sort of the point. Why reward teams for tanking at all? I mean, I agree that this is a half-measure but they should really almost weight it the other way, making it more likely for teams that put in an honest effort to be rewarded.

I'm becoming more and more of a fan of every non-playoff team getting one ball in the drum.  Finish last and you're still guaranteed second pick, which ain't so bad either.

Last place won't be guaranteed then second pick starting next year. The first 3 picks will be determined by lottery.

I'd like to see all non-playoff teams getting one ball each and the order they are drawn in is the draft order.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Al14 on March 11, 2015, 01:36:04 PM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.

But that's sort of the point. Why reward teams for tanking at all? I mean, I agree that this is a half-measure but they should really almost weight it the other way, making it more likely for teams that put in an honest effort to be rewarded.

I'm becoming more and more of a fan of every non-playoff team getting one ball in the drum.  Finish last and you're still guaranteed second pick, which ain't so bad either.

Last place won't be guaranteed then second pick starting next year. The first 3 picks will be determined by lottery.

I'd like to see all non-playoff teams getting one ball each and the order they are drawn in is the draft order.

I'd also like it to be done in public, so no FIXING takes place!  Although, just for this draft, please fix it for McDavid to the Leafs.   ;)
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on March 11, 2015, 04:20:48 PM
Agreed just one time oh lord and thank god Bargnagi is a basketball player.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 12, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
Big win by the Blue Jackets over the wings tonight!   :D
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Highlander on March 13, 2015, 12:13:19 PM
Yahoo!
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on March 13, 2015, 09:11:57 PM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.
I'd sooner west coast than east, if the Leafs don't get him.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: slapshot on March 13, 2015, 09:15:18 PM
The draft lottery simulator scares me. Imagine if a team like LA, San Jose, Ottawa, or Philadelphia wins it.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about those teams being potential lottery winners, even if their odds are incredibly low. I do think that the worst teams should be the ones to pick first. I know that they want to open it up to everyone to stop the problem of tanking, but having the lottery this way (and changing it even more next season) isn't going to start making teams like Buffalo try and get an extra few wins on the season. If they know that they don't have a chance in hell to make the playoffs then they'll still act the same way they have been and be perfectly fine with a team that loses games. This new lottery system doesn't stop the problem of tanking, it just won't reward teams that do it as often.

But that's sort of the point. Why reward teams for tanking at all? I mean, I agree that this is a half-measure but they should really almost weight it the other way, making it more likely for teams that put in an honest effort to be rewarded.

I'm becoming more and more of a fan of every non-playoff team getting one ball in the drum.  Finish last and you're still guaranteed second pick, which ain't so bad either.
Not many years when you have a player the calibre of McDavid available. So either way, it probably won't be as dramatic most years.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Potvin29 on March 13, 2015, 09:50:09 PM
Big win by the Blue Jackets over the wings tonight!   :D

And they just beat the Oilers tonight in a shootout.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Coco-puffs on March 13, 2015, 09:52:40 PM
Big win by the Blue Jackets over the wings tonight!   :D
 

Too bad it wasn't in OT instead of the SO... would hate to drop a spot due to ROWs.

And they just beat the Oilers tonight in a shootout.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: LuncheonMeat on March 14, 2015, 01:09:47 AM
Big win by the Blue Jackets over the wings tonight!   :D

And they just beat the Oilers tonight in a shootout.

I'm going to have to grab some sharpies and an old t-shirt and make a Carolina jersey for tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: moon111 on March 14, 2015, 08:18:16 AM
Before my union meeting yesterday, we were talking about Connor McDavid.  Would more money be made if he went to Arizona or Toronto?  The talk that he would fill the stands in Arizona v.s. higher TV ratings and merchandise sales in Canada.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: brothert on March 14, 2015, 08:35:13 AM
woke up thinking about the time jason allison played for the leafs. the guy could score but was so .... lazy that the other team would get an odd man rush until he could get his ass back over the blue line for about 30 seconds. people used to point out how many points he contributed (60) but i would always point out that his plus minus was (-18). now i look at the +/- of bozak, kessel and jvr and my head explodes. i hate all 3 of them. please end it soon... ...
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: TDotMassive on March 14, 2015, 11:00:05 AM
woke up thinking about the time jason allison played for the leafs. the guy could score but was so .... lazy that the other team would get an odd man rush until he could get his ass back over the blue line for about 30 seconds. people used to point out how many points he contributed (60) but i would always point out that his plus minus was (-18). now i look at the +/- of bozak, kessel and jvr and my head explodes. i hate all 3 of them. please end it soon... ...

I think JVR has had his attitude poisoned by Kessel, Bozak and the rest of the sour core... he's a keeper though. Purge the rotten core and I think you will see a much different JVR.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Chris on March 14, 2015, 11:33:47 AM
I don't know if JVR is a keeper, at this point it's hard to tell. He has looked as bad as anyone on the team over the past 30-40 games.

By the way, congratulations are due to Phil Kessel, first to -30 for the Leafs. Barely beat out Bozak and JVR. Maybe he can make a run at -40...it's not 40 goals, but it's something.
Title: Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
Post by: Peter D. on March 14, 2015, 12:36:05 PM
Before my union meeting yesterday, we were talking about Connor McDavid.  Would more money be made if he went to Arizona or Toronto?  The talk that he would fill the stands in Arizona v.s. higher TV