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2021-2022 NHL Thread

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Significantly Insignificant:

--- Quote from: herman on January 26, 2022, 10:57:48 PM ---Well thanks for thinking I’m one of the nicest and most conscientious!

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I enjoy reading your posts and you always take the time to break down what it is that you are posting.  I'm not going to lie, I am sometimes intimidated to enter into a conversation with a differing view because I am not going to be able to do the research required to keep up with the other side, and I don't think that is fair to those that do take the time to research, given the amount of information that people tend to use on this site to support their arguments. 


--- Quote from: herman on January 26, 2022, 10:57:48 PM ---No, I’m not white :) and I took no offense to anything. You don’t have to be white to be privileged. Being a cisgendered heterosexual right-handed male is a very privileged position in this society too.

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I am glad I didn't offend you.  That is the worst case scenario in my book when entering into a debate.  I like the discussio, and I like the back and forth with different ways of looking at things, but as I have grown older, I try harder and harder to make sure that the discussion doesn't leave scars on people.   


--- Quote from: herman on January 26, 2022, 10:57:48 PM ---I tried very hard in my response to not outright castigate Panetta; for the most part, I don’t actually care about the determination of guilt/innocence here. My response is more to the league(s) and the sport’s culture in general being very resistant to recognizing the toxicity within. One of the ways they (media coverage spin control) bury their heads in the sand is to zoom in microscopically on the minutiae of the inciting incident and any foothold (no intent, good reputation among friends and family and teammates) and magnify that to drown out the actual conversation: what upstream policies, cultural norms, influences allowed this to happen?

Like any time someone comes forward about a sexual assault, there is a segment of the media and public that will question what that person was wearing or interrogate how much they had to drink and the news photos of the alleged perpetrator are always of their graduation photos or some other well-to-do picture, while the victim is shown in one of their beach vacation or nightclub photos pulled from facebook.

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I agree on the media coverage front.  I find more and more it is less about reporting and making sure people are informed on what they need to be informed on and more and more about making sure they get the most people watching their version of the news.   

I'll fully admit that I was ignorant on some of the details on what happened that night.  I hadn't previously read what the crowd did, and after reading that I realize that raising the questions as I did is insensitive to what Subban must have went through that night.  Knowing more of the story, I would have approached the topic differently. 

Significantly Insignificant:

--- Quote from: Nik on January 27, 2022, 11:42:55 AM ---I understand the point you're going for but I think your hypothetical sort of exposes the problem with this line of thinking because for this to be valid there'd need to be some sort of expression or mannerism that could both be entirely innocent but also widely known and understood to be associated with a terrible historical crime like slavery and it's sort of inherently impossible for something to be both.

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I get what you are saying, but I think it's possible.  I'm an incredibly ignorant person when it comes to these things.  I am not worldly, and it's what causes me to try and learn as much as I can about cultures as I move forward so that I can avoid doing something that offends someone.  Look at the misstep that I made with Herman.  I made assumptions, and I shouldn't have done that.  I try my best, but I make mistakes.

Take the monkey reference that happened in the game.  I honestly didn't know that was a thing until someone threw a banana peel on the ice at Wayne Simmonds during a Flyers preseason game a few years back.  That's the first time I heard the reference.  Up until then, I just didn't know it was a thing.  Now, to be fair, it's not like I would bring that up with someone either, so while the chances are slim, there still is a chance that I could make a joke, or do something without understanding the implications of what I was doing because I was ignorant.  Please don't doubt my ability to be socially inept.  I say sorry alot.  I just found out what "Proud Boys" means from Saturday Night Live because of a MacGruber skit.   

However, that's not what happened here.  I am sure that Jacob Panetta knew about the reference.  My thought pattern was more along the lines of "Did he know he looked like he was imitating a monkey".  Still regardless, he made a choice, and it lead to terrible outcomes, so he needs to deal with the consequences of that.  I guess what I am trying to learn from it is what can I do to make sure I don't insult an entire race of human beings like this, because while I would deal with the consequences of it if I did insult a an entire race, I would rather be a person who didn't insult a entire race, because I would like to be known as a good person. 

And if I am inept, then I look at my children and think "God, it's up to me to educate them", but I think they are further ahead then me.  In the past I've used abstract examples about not being insulting to people or degrading and to focus on the type of person they are over everything else, and then I zero in on the specifics like "You must never ever ever use the n-word.  It is a word that must not be said ever", but honestly there is a lot of ground to cover and I could miss things.  Like, I believe you have mentioned that you have a partial Jewish background.  Now I know a couple of slang words that are derogatory to the Jewish community, and I obviously know the context of World War 2, but outside of that, if there is something else that is big, I am not aware of it.  I try my best.  For example I try to always use the full version of Jewish, just because I think shortening it can lead to a negative connotation sometimes.  Add on top of that the diversity that our world contains, and it becomes very hard to be knowledgeable about everything that is offensive to different cultural or ethnicities. 

For example, I have heard that there are some people that have a problem with Nacho Libre.  They find it insulting.  I have also heard that there are some people who are insulted by the movie Borat.       


--- Quote from: Nik on January 27, 2022, 11:42:55 AM ---I can only sort of speak for myself here but with using my own history of being something of an ethnic minority I feel like people maybe don't understand that, like, instances of prejudice that are commonly experienced by ethnic minorities tend not to be primarily seen through the lens of "Ah good, a chance to teach a wayward youth the error of his ways" and expecting it to be is putting yet another burden on a victimized group. Especially within the context of a fairly public endeavour like professional sports I think the emphasis should probably be more on the "How do we stop this from happening" and not the personal growth of Jacob Panetta. In sports the "How do we discourage this behaviour" is usually about harsh punishment, not a training course on why it's bad to break the rules.

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I see what you are saying and the burden side is something that I hadn't considered and it makes total sense.  I think there a couple of things to consider.  There are the large scale things that everyone should know because of history and you should be conscience of the impact of what those things have on the lives of people.  Nobody should need explaining on those.  If you use those references to demean someone, then that makes you a terrible person in my books.   

I do feel though that there are a lot of lesser known things that I don't know about that can be insulting if referenced improperly, and that the only way to make sure they aren't referenced improperly is through education.  Life isn't a shared experience inherently, and that experience is what shapes these feelings.   

Significantly Insignificant:

--- Quote from: herman on January 27, 2022, 02:17:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nik on January 27, 2022, 11:42:55 AM ---I can only sort of speak for myself here but with using my own history of being something of an ethnic minority I feel like people maybe don't understand that, like, instances of prejudice that are commonly experienced by ethnic minorities tend not to be primarily seen through the lens of "Ah good, a chance to teach a wayward youth the error of his ways" and expecting it to be is putting yet another burden on a victimized group. Especially within the context of a fairly public endeavour like professional sports I think the emphasis should probably be more on the "How do we stop this from happening" and not the personal growth of Jacob Panetta. In sports the "How do we discourage this behaviour" is usually about harsh punishment, not a training course on why it's bad to break the rules.

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This is a salient point. In a slightly ridiculous example, if a young driver (an otherwise an upstanding citizen) accidentally/or negligently struck a pedestrian, should the public and news media be asking said pedestrian to teach this young driver how to drive safer, or blame that pedestrian for walking in the way of the car?

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If you are trying to use the analogy to assign fault, then I think it's a hard question to answer because that is situational.  If the driver is doing 80 in a school zone, and doesn't stop for a cross walk, that is on the driver.

However, if the driver is following the posted speed limit, driving within the rules, and a child runs out from between two cars and the driver does not have any humanly possible way to stop the car, then that is on the parents of the child who did not explain to the child that it's dangerous to run between two cars because of physics.

Another example is if the pedestrian is jaywalking.  True story, when I was in high school, me and a couple of friends skipped school to go to the mall.  We were rushing back to school so we could catch our buses home, and we were running across the main street in the town where we grew up.   As we are running across the road, one of my friends gets clipped by a car.  The ambulance shows up, the cops show up, and man did we get in trouble.  That one was definitely on us.     


--- Quote from: herman on January 27, 2022, 02:17:45 PM ---If anything, punitive measures in these instances should target the team: loss of draft capital, forfeiture of games/standings points; it would certainly encourage teams to self-monitor and develop their player pools to weed out those elements, even if their organization does not truly value inclusivity and diversity.

--- End quote ---

I'm for whatever is going to help reduce these types of incidents.  I am not equipped to understand how it must make people feel that these sorts of incidents still occur.

I was thinking about this last night, and my thoughts drifted to drunk driving.  If you think about it, it's crazy that as early as the the 1980's, drunk driving was still very prevalent (as was driving without your seatbelt on, not really relevant, but still crazy in hindsight).  M.A.D.D gets founded in 1980, and over the course of a decade changes the perception around drunk driving and why we need to stop it.

I am on the outside looking in, but it feels to me like that there has been a lot of talk about how this must change, but there is very little movement forward towards change.  To pull in the MeToo movement into this conversation, it feels like even there, there has been very little progress made in actually improving the situation.  So while a majority of society agrees that these things should change, it feels like there is just enough opposition, or enough powerful opposition to slow forward momentum.

Also it got me thinking about the incident ( not sure if that is the right word, if there is a better one, I am all ears) involving Matthews and the security guard, and in retrospect, I am not sure there was really a penalty there for what he did, other than he didn't get made team captain. 

Frank E:

--- Quote from: herman on January 27, 2022, 07:22:54 PM ---EKane to Edm, which was expected and embarrassing for the league

--- End quote ---

Desperate times...

3 in row for Edmonton now after last night...and I don't know if you guys saw that McDavid shootout goal...man, that was something pretty.

Nik:

--- Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on January 27, 2022, 08:17:01 PM ---I get what you are saying, but I think it's possible.
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If you're saying it's inherently possible for a person to be ignorant of all manner of widely known historical realities, that's true but what I'm saying is that it is impossible for something to be clearly associated with having a terribly racist history and then fall into common usage the way you describe. So someone might not understand the history of the fascist salute but it stretches credulity to believe anyone would be ignorant of its history and then just spontaneously decide to do it for a while. They might not understand it's context and simply be imitating something they saw but people, as a rule, don't come up with fun salutes to give each other. 


--- Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on January 27, 2022, 08:17:01 PM ---Take the monkey reference that happened in the game.  I honestly didn't know that was a thing until someone threw a banana peel on the ice at Wayne Simmonds during a Flyers preseason game a few years back.  That's the first time I heard the reference.  Up until then, I just didn't know it was a thing.  Now, to be fair, it's not like I would bring that up with someone either, so while the chances are slim, there still is a chance that I could make a joke, or do something without understanding the implications of what I was doing because I was ignorant.
--- End quote ---

Sure but to some extent that's still on you. Being ignorant of something broadly known historically doesn't make you a bad person but to some extent there is a sort of cultural literacy we're all expected to have to function in society and just like someone may not know they're not supposed to, say, smoke pot and drive that doesn't functionally absolve them of the consequences either. There certainly isn't a dearth of opportunities to learn these things.


--- Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on January 27, 2022, 08:17:01 PM ---Like, I believe you have mentioned that you have a partial Jewish background.  Now I know a couple of slang words that are derogatory to the Jewish community, and I obviously know the context of World War 2, but outside of that, if there is something else that is big, I am not aware of it.  I try my best.  For example I try to always use the full version of Jewish, just because I think shortening it can lead to a negative connotation sometimes.  Add on top of that the diversity that our world contains, and it becomes very hard to be knowledgeable about everything that is offensive to different cultural or ethnicities.
--- End quote ---

Sure and, going on that example, I don't think the expectation here is that everyone's going to have a PhD in everyone elses culture but, again, I do sort of think there's this fairly reasonable situation where you're not expected to know the obscure things that may offend someone but by the same token but by the same token the chance of you really insulting someone by accident by referencing something terribly obscure is pretty unlikely. So for instance you know not to make jokes about the Holocaust because that's pretty well known but, say, if you didn't know about the Holocaust well, it's pretty unlikely that you'd ever just accidentally imply that there was a genocide of European Jews in the 1940's or make any specific references that were associated with Nazi death camps. Likewise, I feel it's somewhat reasonable to expect reasonably intelligent people to have some sort of framework for that stuff.

Along those lines, the idea of a "Court Jew" is an old and relatively unknown instance of Anti-Jewish bigotry from the past so you couldn't reasonably be expected to know about but by that same token the idea that anyone would, refer to their one Jewish friend as their "Court Jew" without knowing that history is so unlikely as to really not be a credible defense if it happened.

So to bring it back to the incident here, I don't think what we're talking about necessarily fits. The issue doesn't seem to be "Panetta doesn't understand that making a gorilla gesture at a black player is offensive" but rather it's "Panetta says he didn't make a gorilla gesture at all". Then it's could what Panetta say he did be reasonably interpreted as an offensive gesture and should he know that and not do it.

So this is where it gets back to what we were saying where it doesn't seem to be particularly useful to try and decipher intent because there's really no way for any of us to know what Panetta was thinking. Ultimately he wasn't careful enough and the league decided it merited legitimate punishment. If the end result is that people think a little more carefully and maybe are overly cautious not to offend an opponent with a childish taunt, racial intent or not, is that really a bad thing? Do any of us really care about the ECHL career of Jacob Panetta?

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