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Maple Leafs News and Views => Leafs Rumours & Speculation => Topic started by: Shamus2009 on June 17, 2021, 10:00:36 AM

Title: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 17, 2021, 10:00:36 AM
Hey Im a leafs fan from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and like many of you I’m still disappointed as hell and probably a little bitter.

My honest opinion on this team is this team is going into probably it’s most important season in recent memory. I’m not sure what Kyle dubas, Sheldon keefe, and Brendan shannahan are going to do or if they are the ones that should be holding those positions but this off-season is what will ultimately shape this teams future for the coming years. There’s rumblings out there that mlse is upset with the amount of money they’ve put into this team with out any success. I really think that mlse before the press conferences with keefe, dubas, and shannahan had a meeting with them and going into it they were not sure if they would be continuing for me with that group, ultimately they by the looks of it decided that they will be but I would say the tone of the meeting was if you do not get 4 playoff wins next season when the final buzzer goes of that deciding game pack up you stuff and don’t wait for the call to know weather your coming back or not.

I am going to say this I’ve never really been a dubas fan I wanted them to keep Lou, and as far as keefe I really thought that he was the right guy to come in last year at the time he did but he should never have been given the head coaching position right away he should have been the interm head coach and had been reevaluated at the end of the season. In that case I think dubas hired with his heart and not with what was best for the team in mind because last offseason there were some good head coaches available and maybe with keefe getting some experience as an nhl assistant under one of them then take over the team with some more experience.

This team is at a major cross roads right now, Matthew’s is only locked up till 2024 you’ve gotta think he’s not coming back if things don’t change. Teams are going to want him bad and let’s face it Toronto can be a pretty poopy place to play when your loosing.

This is just my take like it or lump it it’s how I feel, I’d love to hear how you guys feel about the future, what you think will happen and who do you think will be suiting up for the leafs next season.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Bender on June 17, 2021, 10:56:31 AM
Hey Im a leafs fan from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and like many of you I’m still disappointed as hell and probably a little bitter.

My honest opinion on this team is this team is going into probably it’s most important season in recent memory. I’m not sure what Kyle dubas, Sheldon keefe, and Brendan shannahan are going to do or if they are the ones that should be holding those positions but this off-season is what will ultimately shape this teams future for the coming years. There’s rumblings out there that mlse is upset with the amount of money they’ve put into this team with out any success. I really think that mlse before the press conferences with keefe, dubas, and shannahan had a meeting with them and going into it they were not sure if they would be continuing for me with that group, ultimately they by the looks of it decided that they will be but I would say the tone of the meeting was if you do not get 4 playoff wins next season when the final buzzer goes of that deciding game pack up you stuff and don’t wait for the call to know weather your coming back or not.

I am going to say this I’ve never really been a dubas fan I wanted them to keep Lou, and as far as keefe I really thought that he was the right guy to come in last year at the time he did but he should never have been given the head coaching position right away he should have been the interm head coach and had been reevaluated at the end of the season. In that case I think dubas hired with his heart and not with what was best for the team in mind because last offseason there were some good head coaches available and maybe with keefe getting some experience as an nhl assistant under one of them then take over the team with some more experience.

This team is at a major cross roads right now, Matthew’s is only locked up till 2024 you’ve gotta think he’s not coming back if things don’t change. Teams are going to want him bad and let’s face it Toronto can be a pretty poopy place to play when your loosing.

This is just my take like it or lump it it’s how I feel, I’d love to hear how you guys feel about the future, what you think will happen and who do you think will be suiting up for the leafs next season.


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After bungling Zaitsev and completely screwing up with Marleau I think Lou's tenure is unforgivable. Both those contracts were albatrosses that we had to spend assets just to get out of.

As well, it's just been a questionable track record ever since they drafted Matthews. Nik has said repeatedly they should never have short circuited the rebuild and instead of hitting it out of the park with draft picks and turning the roster over theg let guys walk for nothing repeatedly and have not a lot to show for it. I'm so tired of walking guys to free agency.

To me Lou having success for the Islanders is less to do with Lou and a lot more to do with Trotz being an amazing coach. Washington has been pretty trash since he won them a Cup. It's no surprise that the Isles are playing well with high level coaching even without the most elite talent.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 17, 2021, 12:46:05 PM
I agree those contracts were bad but dubas hasn’t had the greatest track record yet with his contracts, marners 10 million dollar contract when you already have two 10 million dollar players and a third 7 million dollar contract to make 40 million on four forwards with an 80 million dollar cap. That doesn’t look good either. I don’t think the leafs made a good decision having a rookie gm dealing with rfa to the three young guys dubas had to sign. He followed Willy all over Europe trying to get the deal done only to have Willy call him at the 11th hou and say let’s get this done, Willy had the upper hand there because dubas showed his cards they he was going to do anything to get him to sign. That then gave Mathews and Marner a lot of negotiation pull because they knew they were more valuable than Willy. Matthew’s get what he gets regardless but I think most gms get Willy and Marner for 2 mill less each.

I do agree through The islanders success has a lot to do with trotz he’s the best defensive coach in the league give me trotz behind the leafs bench please. Only thing is even if he was available dubas doesn’t even think about hiring him, he and keefe are a package deal and I really think that’s going to be his death certificate his stubbornness he can’t admit that he didn’t build a cup contender he built the best leafs team in years yes but is that really something you can brag about.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: L K on June 17, 2021, 01:01:29 PM
The problem with the big contracts isn't just about what you have to fill around them but also in judging what you do with the space if you don't sign a big contract.

Leafs 2018 - Sign John Tavares to 7/77 contract
Islanders 2018 - Sign Komarov 4/12, Hickey 4/10, Filppula 1/2.5, Acquire Matt Martin 2/5, Jan Kovar 1/2

Komarov + Hickey + Filppula + Martin + Jan Kovar= 12.5M - 75 points
John Tavares - 88 points

Obviously its not all about points but Lou didn't get a bunch of contract steals.  Uncle Leo has 2G/8P in 39 games in the postseason.  He starts 2/3 of his shifts in the offensive zone and has negative possession and goal differentials.

If you think that you are getting Nylander coming off back to back 60 point seasons for 4.9M you are crazy.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 17, 2021, 01:27:30 PM
The problem with the big contracts isn't just about what you have to fill around them but also in judging what you do with the space if you don't sign a big contract.

Leafs 2018 - Sign John Tavares to 7/77 contract
Islanders 2018 - Sign Komarov 4/12, Hickey 4/10, Filppula 1/2.5, Acquire Matt Martin 2/5, Jan Kovar 1/2

Komarov + Hickey + Filppula + Martin + Jan Kovar= 12.5M - 75 points
John Tavares - 88 points

Obviously its not all about points but Lou didn't get a bunch of contract steals.  Uncle Leo has 2G/8P in 39 games in the postseason.  He starts 2/3 of his shifts in the offensive zone and has negative possession and goal differentials.

If you think that you are getting Nylander coming off back to back 60 point seasons for 4.9M you are crazy.
Ok maybe not 4.9 but I still think that negotiation goes a little different with Willy with another gm,
I also don’t think jt is a leaf with Lou as gm.

Like I said I’m not a dubas fan I don’t think the way he wants to build a team is a cup contending team, I could be wrong, but I really don’t see a cup before Matthew, nylander and Marners contracts run out.
 
Tavares is also something that worries me that was a nasty blow to the head I know he was probably coming back in round two, but with concussion he may never be that same player again, it might not even be physically that’s the problem subconsciously he may come back a bit more timid and not be able to do the things he use to the same way. That’s not something anyone’s going to know until he back on the ice in a real game.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: bustaheims on June 17, 2021, 01:48:38 PM
After bungling Zaitsev and completely screwing up with Marleau I think Lou's tenure is unforgivable. Both those contracts were albatrosses that we had to spend assets just to get out of.

As well, it's just been a questionable track record ever since they drafted Matthews. Nik has said repeatedly they should never have short circuited the rebuild and instead of hitting it out of the park with draft picks and turning the roster over theg let guys walk for nothing repeatedly and have not a lot to show for it. I'm so tired of walking guys to free agency.

To me Lou having success for the Islanders is less to do with Lou and a lot more to do with Trotz being an amazing coach. Washington has been pretty trash since he won them a Cup. It's no surprise that the Isles are playing well with high level coaching even without the most elite talent.

Lou's track record in the cap era is not great - questionable draft choices, poor contracts, and bad trades abound. He basically had to pioneer the concept of moving a pick with a bad contract to free up cap space because of the terrible contract he signed Malakhov to. Then there's the mess with Kovalchuk, the 6 year deals he gave Zubrus and Volchenkov, constantly bringing back "his guys" even when they're not contributors, and so on. There's the occasional good move in there, but there's much more of the bad stuff. He's lucky Trotz is clearly able to spin straw into gold, because the moves he's made with the Islanders have also not been great in a capped league.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 17, 2021, 02:22:29 PM
Welcome to the convo.

I have no idea if MLSE sat down with Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe before their pressers but I just want to second your point that if the Leafs don't get past the first round next spring (or if they miss entirely, a definite possibility when they return to the usual divisions) then it could — and I think should — be a complete wipeout.

Babcock/Lou weren't the answer but their focus on getting a team ready for the playoffs is something Keefe/Boy-King haven't demonstrated success at, at least beyond the AHL.  They get one more kick at the can, but that's it.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 17, 2021, 02:25:13 PM
And an unrelated thought for the mods: isn't it time we close this board and just move the GM thread and this one to the front page?  Until Shamus started this thread here, there hasn't been a new one outside of the GM threads for several years.  Frankly, at this stage all Leafs threads should just go on the front page, IMO.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: L K on June 17, 2021, 03:34:38 PM
The Keefe criticism seems odd to me.  He's put the Leafs at 113 point pace in his two partial seasons.  He's 5-7 in the postseason with four games going to OT.  Obviously results are the deciding factor on what you do but he still hasn't had a full 82-game season with the team.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Highlander on June 17, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
The Keefe criticism seems odd to me.  He's put the Leafs at 113 point pace in his two partial seasons.  He's 5-7 in the postseason with four games going to OT.  Obviously results are the deciding factor on what you do but he still hasn't had a full 82-game season with the team.
Ya we had 113 point pace, the team was way more consistent this year with Brodie on the D.  My comments are this; we have a great core team, Spezza is returning, some acquisitions/trades will be made to hopefully improve the overall level of competitiveness.   
We have now had two abbreviated seasons with virtually no normalcy.  No full training camps, no crowds, pretty unsettling for us oldsters, what does it do to the mental health of a 24 year old.
We are returning to normal, perhaps a new normal, but as close to our old lives as possible.  Give this team one more year, a full training camp, playing in front of home town crowds.  Add a killer or two and we will be on our way.
When Shamus says we are "loosing", no we are preparing to win. 

They will open the vault for Matthews when they have to, or trade him for a zillion draft picks and get McDavid off the Oilers, but now we are getting really ahead of ourselves.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 17, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
The Keefe criticism seems odd to me.  He's put the Leafs at 113 point pace in his two partial seasons.  He's 5-7 in the postseason with four games going to OT.  Obviously results are the deciding factor on what you do but he still hasn't had a full 82-game season with the team.

Fair or not, Keefe is tied to Dubas.  If they flop again, Shanahan and Dubas will likely get the boot, and thus so will Keefe.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: L K on June 17, 2021, 04:31:04 PM
The Keefe criticism seems odd to me.  He's put the Leafs at 113 point pace in his two partial seasons.  He's 5-7 in the postseason with four games going to OT.  Obviously results are the deciding factor on what you do but he still hasn't had a full 82-game season with the team.

Fair or not, Keefe is tied to Dubas.  If they flop again, Shanahan and Dubas will likely get the boot, and thus so will Keefe.

Depending on how the offseason goes I'm not even sure that will be the case.  If they trade Marner this offseason and they flop...yeah I think they rebuild the front office.  If they don't I think there is still room for the "break up the top of the roster" offseason.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Nik on June 17, 2021, 06:14:48 PM

I just feel like a lot of the criticisms of Dubas are really based in a lot of unfair hindsight. Like, I was just about the only person here during the Foligno trade saying "Eh, I don't like this. Too high a price. I'd rather have spent less on Hall*" and virtually everyone else was "No, the team needs more grit and leadership. It's why they got beat by Columbus".

Likewise, they "needed" a more physical defense. In comes Brodie. They "needed" more grit and veteran leadership. Here comes Thornton/Simmonds. Everything people said the Leafs should do, they did. It's why they were so favoured over Montreal. Nobody was saying "Man, the Leafs are at a real disadvantage because of all the money they gave to their top 4 forwards against the Habs" until they lost.

The Leafs were a good team. They had depth. They had balance. They got good goaltending. Odds are, absent injuries to Foligno and Tavares, they win the series.

I'm all for a post-mortem but there's a difference between finding a cause of death and saying that it was forseeable. There is no way of building a team where an injury to one of your best players and your key deadline acquisition doesn't hurt. There is no way of building a team that renders you immune from running into a hot goalie. 

Until someone actually presents a positive way forward, advocating for changes just because "Things didn't work" might feel cathartic but I don't think we can confuse it for actual strategy.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Highlander on June 17, 2021, 06:35:48 PM

I just feel like a lot of the criticisms of Dubas are really based in a lot of unfair hindsight. Like, I was just about the only person here during the Foligno trade saying "Eh, I don't like this. Too high a price. I'd rather have spent less on Hall*" and virtually everyone else was "No, the team needs more grit and leadership. It's why they got beat by Columbus".

Likewise, they "needed" a more physical defense. In comes Brodie. They "needed" more grit and veteran leadership. Here comes Thornton/Simmonds. Everything people said the Leafs should do, they did. It's why they were so favoured over Montreal. Nobody was saying "Man, the Leafs are at a real disadvantage because of all the money they gave to their top 4 forwards against the Habs" until they lost.

The Leafs were a good team. They had depth. They had balance. They got good goaltending. Odds are, absent injuries to Foligno and Tavares, they win the series.

I'm all for a post-mortem but there's a difference between finding a cause of death and saying that it was forseeable. There is no way of building a team where an injury to one of your best players and your key deadline acquisition doesn't hurt. There is no way of building a team that renders you immune from running into a hot goalie. 

Until someone actually presents a positive way forward, advocating for changes just because "Things didn't work" might feel cathartic but I don't think we can confuse it for actual strategy.
I am total agreement, when you look at Lou's gaffes and that Hunter was our 2nd choice for GM, it makes one think that things are not so bad as they may seem.  I think Dubas has made many good moves for the reasons Nik states.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: lamajama on June 17, 2021, 07:40:06 PM
I think the Leafs made a reasonable gamble and assumption that the Cap would continue to increase even if only a few M per year and then adding in the new US TV deal would bump it up ?? Say 5M at least….this makes the Big 4 deals a lot more maneuverable.

Why they didn’t anticipate a worldwide pandemic is beyond me.

Just the Leaf fans luck that occurs at this time.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 17, 2021, 11:11:57 PM
The Keefe criticism seems odd to me.  He's put the Leafs at 113 point pace in his two partial seasons.  He's 5-7 in the postseason with four games going to OT.  Obviously results are the deciding factor on what you do but he still hasn't had a full 82-game season with the team.

Fair or not, Keefe is tied to Dubas.  If they flop again, Shanahan and Dubas will likely get the boot, and thus so will Keefe.

Depending on how the offseason goes I'm not even sure that will be the case.  If they trade Marner this offseason and they flop...yeah I think they rebuild the front office.  If they don't I think there is still room for the "break up the top of the roster" offseason.

6 first-round exits in a row would, I'm pretty sure, result in a house-cleaning in the management ranks.

I agree, and have said, that Dubas did everything he could this year to address team needs.  He's made some bad moves like all GMs but I really liked what he did to the team, especially defensively.  Nonetheless, he's out of excuses in terms of actually moving beyond just making the playoffs.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 18, 2021, 06:10:17 AM
The Keefe criticism seems odd to me.  He's put the Leafs at 113 point pace in his two partial seasons.  He's 5-7 in the postseason with four games going to OT.  Obviously results are the deciding factor on what you do but he still hasn't had a full 82-game season with the team.

Fair or not, Keefe is tied to Dubas.  If they flop again, Shanahan and Dubas will likely get the boot, and thus so will Keefe.

Depending on how the offseason goes I'm not even sure that will be the case.  If they trade Marner this offseason and they flop...yeah I think they rebuild the front office.  If they don't I think there is still room for the "break up the top of the roster" offseason.

6 first-round exits in a row would, I'm pretty sure, result in a house-cleaning in the management ranks.

I agree, and have said, that Dubas did everything he could this year to address team needs.  He's made some bad moves like all GMs but I really liked what he did to the team, especially defensively.  Nonetheless, he's out of excuses in terms of actually moving beyond just making the playoffs.
I agree, like I said I’m not a big dubas fan from the get go, but that’s me I am of the belief that defence wins championships and dubas and keefe want to build an offensive power house that can our score it’s defensive deficiency. I don’t think that really works, that might be because growing up I was a goaltender so I value defence more than most. Looking at this team while the defence is better than last season it’s still not championship worthy Brodie really helped Riely and bogo (who is not under contract for next season) did all the little things right defensively. I find there’s a real lack of defensive defence men on the team that can eat minutes in tight games and you can really trust in your own zone, muzzin and bogo are good at that but they’re older, I starting to trust holl a bit, dermott we’ll they turn over says it all and same goes for sandin, not saying there bad but those bad turn overs at times that you just can’t do that.

This was definitely the best leafs teams we’ve seen but I still didn’t see a Stanley cup contender when I watched them, I seen the best team in Canada. Even then though when they went trough that little slump this season both my cousin who is as big if not bigger leafs fan as I am and myself said this team isn’t going to beat Montreal, of course after they beat Montreal those last two games we kind of changed our mind and thought we were just overreacting. This team is flawed all teams are but I don’t think they are minor tweaks away from winning a cup, minor tweaks from a first round win maybe but that’s not the end goal it’s to win a cup, but here in leafs nation we’d probably celebrate that first round win like it was a cup, and that might just prolong our misery and we win a round that year but we still aren’t close to winning a cup.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Bender on June 18, 2021, 09:41:50 AM

I just feel like a lot of the criticisms of Dubas are really based in a lot of unfair hindsight. Like, I was just about the only person here during the Foligno trade saying "Eh, I don't like this. Too high a price. I'd rather have spent less on Hall*" and virtually everyone else was "No, the team needs more grit and leadership. It's why they got beat by Columbus".

Likewise, they "needed" a more physical defense. In comes Brodie. They "needed" more grit and veteran leadership. Here comes Thornton/Simmonds. Everything people said the Leafs should do, they did. It's why they were so favoured over Montreal. Nobody was saying "Man, the Leafs are at a real disadvantage because of all the money they gave to their top 4 forwards against the Habs" until they lost.

The Leafs were a good team. They had depth. They had balance. They got good goaltending. Odds are, absent injuries to Foligno and Tavares, they win the series.

I'm all for a post-mortem but there's a difference between finding a cause of death and saying that it was forseeable. There is no way of building a team where an injury to one of your best players and your key deadline acquisition doesn't hurt. There is no way of building a team that renders you immune from running into a hot goalie. 

Until someone actually presents a positive way forward, advocating for changes just because "Things didn't work" might feel cathartic but I don't think we can confuse it for actual strategy.
In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 18, 2021, 12:29:45 PM

I just feel like a lot of the criticisms of Dubas are really based in a lot of unfair hindsight. Like, I was just about the only person here during the Foligno trade saying "Eh, I don't like this. Too high a price. I'd rather have spent less on Hall*" and virtually everyone else was "No, the team needs more grit and leadership. It's why they got beat by Columbus".

Likewise, they "needed" a more physical defense. In comes Brodie. They "needed" more grit and veteran leadership. Here comes Thornton/Simmonds. Everything people said the Leafs should do, they did. It's why they were so favoured over Montreal. Nobody was saying "Man, the Leafs are at a real disadvantage because of all the money they gave to their top 4 forwards against the Habs" until they lost.

The Leafs were a good team. They had depth. They had balance. They got good goaltending. Odds are, absent injuries to Foligno and Tavares, they win the series.

I'm all for a post-mortem but there's a difference between finding a cause of death and saying that it was forseeable. There is no way of building a team where an injury to one of your best players and your key deadline acquisition doesn't hurt. There is no way of building a team that renders you immune from running into a hot goalie. 

Until someone actually presents a positive way forward, advocating for changes just because "Things didn't work" might feel cathartic but I don't think we can confuse it for actual strategy.
In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.
I agree they are too too heavy the money has to be spread out more, we had two injuries and two players who had a rough playoff and they lost. A lot of people are saying if Tavares doesn’t get hurt the leafs win the series, we’ll he did and the leafs took a poop. There’s always injuries in the playoffs stamkos last year played two periods and still Tampa won the cup.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: bustaheims on June 18, 2021, 01:40:47 PM
In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.

Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Nik on June 18, 2021, 01:50:51 PM
In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.

I appreciate the point you're making but the reality is that the team didn't "fall apart" with a single injury. They didn't get waxed in 4 like the Oilers after Tavares got hurt despite facing a team that was perfectly capable of beating a "better team" in 4 games like we saw in round 2 vs. the Jets. They sustained an injury to one of their top 4 players(and Foligno) and still very nearly won the series in 5 games.

If by "fall apart" you just mean lose a series then you might be right(although, and I can't stress this enough, any team is capable of losing in the first round for just about any reason) that a team without Tavares but with that cap space is more likely to win a first round series if one guy gets hurt but I don't think it makes the team better necessarily if the overall goal is to win the cup. And at that point you have to ask if the goal is to build a team capable of getting to the 2nd round if things go wrong or a team capable of winning the cup if things go right.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Nik on June 18, 2021, 02:06:57 PM
Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.

Yeah, I think the point about Tavares' injury is being lost somewhat. It's not "the entire series hinged on Tavares getting hurt" but rather "the Leafs ran into a hot goalie and a team that shut down Matthews and Marner and got very unlucky with multiple injuries and they almost very nearly won the series convincingly, so let's not pretend retroactively that the talent difference was falsely stated".

And again, this is something that's come up in multiple threads now but there's a false dichotomy here being presented as some people think the team should be "top-heavy" and others who want to build good depth. Everyone wants the Leafs to have good depth, just that simply subtracting one of the team's better players and having a bunch of cap space in and of itself isn't a good way to build depth.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 18, 2021, 06:46:42 PM
In that sense though isn't there a lot of risk tying that much cap space to a single player? If salary was spread out more you'd have more flexibility and the house of cards is less likely to fall apart with a singular injury. I mean, I get that most teams would be in tough if they lost one of their star centres but maybe you can mitigate that risk better. The team shouldn't be an injury to Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner or even Muzzin away from winning and losing in the first round, it just seems very risky.

Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.
There really wasn’t a lack of scoring from the depth guys though, muzzin, kerfoot, spezza, Brodie, Riely all put up points just the Mitch and auston couldn’t get anything going after game four. Depth scoring wasn’t a problem this playoff run which is the worst part of all because the guys actually paid to score couldn’t, except nylander.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 18, 2021, 06:52:32 PM
Maybe, but I think the issue this year was less Tavares getting hurt (though, obviously, that didn't help) but the team's best players mostly not playing their best. If Marner or Matthews put another puck or two past Price, and we're having a very different discussion. The lack of production from the depth forwards was obviously not great, but when your top players aren't among your top performers, you're not going to get very far.

Yeah, I think the point about Tavares' injury is being lost somewhat. It's not "the entire series hinged on Tavares getting hurt" but rather "the Leafs ran into a hot goalie and a team that shut down Matthews and Marner and got very unlucky with multiple injuries and they almost very nearly won the series convincingly, so let's not pretend retroactively that the talent difference was falsely stated".

And again, this is something that's come up in multiple threads now but there's a false dichotomy here being presented as some people think the team should be "top-heavy" and others who want to build good depth. Everyone wants the Leafs to have good depth, just that simply subtracting one of the team's better players and having a bunch of cap space in and of itself isn't a good way to build depth.
Price was good and made some big saves but for the most part he had it pretty easy very few second chance opportunities he was able to make the first save and cover it up. That game that that the leafs out shot Montreal 13–2 in overtime I counted 5 shots that were shot right to his glove with no traffic infront, just an open look for price. Price has a great glove hand and you shot the puck to his glove with no traffic it’s a dead puck. I was screaming at the tv the whole over time shoot for a rebound but shot after shot on his glove.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: bustaheims on June 18, 2021, 09:38:44 PM
There really wasn’t a lack of scoring from the depth guys though, muzzin, kerfoot, spezza, Brodie, Riely all put up points just the Mitch and auston couldn’t get anything going after game four. Depth scoring wasn’t a problem this playoff run which is the worst part of all because the guys actually paid to score couldn’t, except nylander.


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5 goals in 7 games from forwards not named Nylander or Spezza - and only 2 from guys not playing in the top 6 - is absolutely a lack of production from the depth forwards. The fact that the defence scored the same amount is nice, but is not at all a recipe for success. The top guys need to carry the majority of the load, but the Cup gets win by teams that have productive bottom 6 guys.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on June 22, 2021, 07:09:39 AM
There really wasn’t a lack of scoring from the depth guys though, muzzin, kerfoot, spezza, Brodie, Riely all put up points just the Mitch and auston couldn’t get anything going after game four. Depth scoring wasn’t a problem this playoff run which is the worst part of all because the guys actually paid to score couldn’t, except nylander.


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5 goals in 7 games from forwards not named Nylander or Spezza - and only 2 from guys not playing in the top 6 - is absolutely a lack of production from the depth forwards. The fact that the defence scored the same amount is nice, but is not at all a recipe for success. The top guys need to carry the majority of the load, but the Cup gets win by teams that have productive bottom 6 guys.
Spezza 3 goals is definitely depth scoring he’s a four liner. Muzzin is depth scoring, Thornton scored, kerfoot scored. That’s depth scoring no doubt about it.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: bustaheims on June 22, 2021, 09:50:20 AM
Spezza 3 goals is definitely depth scoring he’s a four liner. Muzzin is depth scoring, Thornton scored, kerfoot scored. That’s depth scoring no doubt about it.

Hey, if you consider a total of 5 goals in the series from forwards not named Nylander and Spezza to be enough depth, that's on you. I don't, and I doubt too many others around here do, either.

The defencemen contributed, sure, but you can't rely on them to drive the team's offence. Production has to come mainly from your forwards, and, outside of two guys, the Leafs didn't get enough of that.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: KW Sluggo on July 25, 2021, 03:29:18 PM
I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Bender on July 25, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.
I do agree with you near the end of the post but I do find it funny that Dubas had to clean up Lou's messes and then you say you'd keep Lou for his body of work.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on July 26, 2021, 01:00:51 PM
I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Very unfair for you to call it a 'policy' of 'giving away players and first rounders'.  What, exactly, should Dubas have done with the Marleau contract?  Cap space is valuable, extremely valuable.  Did you see the recent Shane Gostisbehere trade to Arizona?  Competing GMs will demand a premium to help with cap issues, hence Dubas' stance with Edmonton on the Hyman deal.

I just don't understand the bias against Dubas.  I mean, have at it, he hasn't delivered the success we all hoped for.  But man alive at least use real examples rather than these straw-man arguments that are clearly disingenuous.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Highlander on August 03, 2021, 08:42:20 PM
I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Very unfair for you to call it a 'policy' of 'giving away players and first rounders'.  What, exactly, should Dubas have done with the Marleau contract?  Cap space is valuable, extremely valuable.  Did you see the recent Shane Gostisbehere trade to Arizona?  Competing GMs will demand a premium to help with cap issues, hence Dubas' stance with Edmonton on the Hyman deal.

I just don't understand the bias against Dubas.  I mean, have at it, he hasn't delivered the success we all hoped for.  But man alive at least use real examples rather than these straw-man arguments that are clearly disingenuous.
Name 26 other teams that have a better record than the Leafs. Dubas is doing just fine. Trust the process..
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: moon111 on August 22, 2021, 01:52:54 PM
As it stands... this might be the extent of the developed by the Leaf's line-up for next season.
---------- / Center / Right-Wing
----------/ ---------- / Right-Wing
--------- / ----------- / -------------
--------- / ----------- / -------------
Left defense / -------------
-------------- / --------------
-------------- / Right defense

----------------
----------------

Perhaps to that, you can add that most of the so-called assets they've had were were overpaid and under-performing with select few trading partners which resulted in many cases of buying high and selling low due to no fault of the current management.

David Clarkson, Patrick Marleau, Phil Kessel, Nazem Kadri, Matt Martin, Connor Brown, Nikita Zaitsev, Carl Grundstrom, Connor Carrick.

Perhaps the biggest criticism that could be done with the current Leaf's management is they allowed Hunter to draft guys with obviously no talent just because they were big.


Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Shamus2009 on August 26, 2021, 07:45:12 AM
I never did understand the Zaitsev departure in the sense that he was being asked by Babcock to play a different role, one he was ill suited for and didn't like. It seemed to me that the expedient step would have been to revert Zaitsev to his previous role where he played reasonable well (well enough to get a raise and a contract extension anyway) and wait to see how he performed.

Then there is the fact that Babcock was already on thin ice at the time -- although it was not publicly known at the time -- so why dump a player to satisfy a coach in that position?

The policy of giving away players and first rounders is stupid. Connor Brown springs to mind but there are others. The Marleau first round price was insane as was the same price paid to bring in Foligno -- a player that leaf management does not seem overly interested in retaining.

Shortly put, the debate as to wether Lou or Dubas is or was the better choice as GM avoids the alternative that perhaps neither one was better than the other ... or the best choice.

If it came down to a choice however, I would have chosen Lou, based purely on his body of work and his understanding of the type of player needed to win in the playoffs.

Insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting a different result and the Dubas insistence that he will bet it all on this group makes me think 2021/22 will be his last as Leaf GM. Last year's roster was not good enough and I see nothing so far to indicate next years' will be better or even as good.

Very unfair for you to call it a 'policy' of 'giving away players and first rounders'.  What, exactly, should Dubas have done with the Marleau contract?  Cap space is valuable, extremely valuable.  Did you see the recent Shane Gostisbehere trade to Arizona?  Competing GMs will demand a premium to help with cap issues, hence Dubas' stance with Edmonton on the Hyman deal.

I just don't understand the bias against Dubas.  I mean, have at it, he hasn't delivered the success we all hoped for.  But man alive at least use real examples rather than these straw-man arguments that are clearly disingenuous.
Name 26 other teams that have a better record than the Leafs. Dubas is doing just fine. Trust the process..
The process has been good regular seasons and poop the bed in the first round that’s not really something I feel comfortable trusting. The leafs organization has 3 more seasons to prove to Auston that they have a chance at a cup, he’s not a John Tavares or Jason spezza that grew up cheering for this team so chances are that after this contract he’ll hit the open market and like his last contract won’t be taking a home town discount. This season they have three extremely important rfa contracts. Campbell, Riely and sandin all of which I think are going to be huge factors in how the leafs do in the regular season. If the leafs finish top three in the Atlantic those three players are going to be key contributors to it. Then you have 13 million to try and get them signed which won’t happen your loosing at least 1 maybe two and then sign depth players as well so more bargain hunting. This is the season the leafs have to go go it not only because if they don’t the whole front office is getting canned but because if they don’t make a run this season I think the backend looks way different next season and not in a good way. Everyone says that sandin is the replacement for Riely but remember he’s a rfa this season too and if he has the season a lot of people are expecting he might want to hit the market and might move on as well and Reilly after the offseason that defencemen have had is going to be looking for 7-8.5 million.


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Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: OldTimeHockey on August 26, 2021, 08:17:35 AM
Everyone says that sandin is the replacement for Riely but remember he’s a rfa this season too and if he has the season a lot of people are expecting he might want to hit the market and might move on as well


Sandin can't move on unless the Leafs want him to.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Bender on August 26, 2021, 08:54:40 AM

Everyone says that sandin is the replacement for Riely but remember he’s a rfa this season too and if he has the season a lot of people are expecting he might want to hit the market and might move on as well


Sandin can't move on unless the Leafs want him to.
[/quote]He's also barely cracked the lineup yet. Worrying about losing him is way premature.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Joe S. on August 26, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Over the years I’ve seen the term ‘hometown discount’ thrown around and honestly, are there any examples of this actually happening? Where players left significant dollars on the table to stay ‘home’?

No one should have any expectations of Matthews taking a discount. He deserves whatever is coming to him.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: bustaheims on August 26, 2021, 12:08:49 PM
Over the years I’ve seen the term ‘hometown discount’ thrown around and honestly, are there any examples of this actually happening? Where players left significant dollars on the table to stay ‘home’?

No one should have any expectations of Matthews taking a discount. He deserves whatever is coming to him.

Hard to say. There are definitely rumblings of players being offered more money to go elsewhere but chose to stay where they were - but, they're really just rumblings, and there's a lot of factors at play in that decision. Players aren't going to leave a contender, leave a situation where they're happy/comfortable, or choose to go to a bad team for a little extra cash.
Title: Re: My honest opinion for 2021-22
Post by: Nik on August 26, 2021, 12:22:55 PM
Over the years I’ve seen the term ‘hometown discount’ thrown around and honestly, are there any examples of this actually happening? Where players left significant dollars on the table to stay ‘home’?

No one should have any expectations of Matthews taking a discount. He deserves whatever is coming to him.

To some extent, sure. People will cite Tampa lots and I think there are quite a few guys who took less than they almost certainly would have fetcged on the open market. Someone like Sid Crosby almost certainly could have gotten more than what he got as a UFA than he did signing long term in Pittsburgh.

The thing though, that people don't want to hear is...Matthews did kind of give the team a discount. By either way you could have measured it.

Would he have been offered more as a UFA? Yes.

Could he have demanded more and the Leafs probably would have given it to him? Again, yes. The Leafs don't ruin their relationship with him if he wants 12 million a season.