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Just for Fun => Ok Blue Jays Talk => Topic started by: Nik on November 10, 2019, 01:29:33 PM

Title: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2019, 01:29:33 PM

Just a thread I thought I'd post for some discussions about what we might like to see the Jays do next year. Personally, I'm pretty high on where they finished the year and think they really have an opportunity to improve the team with some smart free agent signings. They've only got 41 million committed for next year(55 if you count Tulo) so there's money to spend but they'll have at least one big arbitration case(Giles) and big question marks elsewhere

Anyways, here's how I think the lineup looks right now for next year:

C: Jansen/McGuire
1B:
2B: Biggio
SS: Bichette
3B: Guerrero
LF: Gurriel
CF:
RF: Grichuk
DH:

Some thoughts: I think this is where the Jays look strongest and have some real interesting options. I think the hope has to be that Grichuk's year was an aberration and he returns to the positive value player he's been for most of his career(interestingly, he may be more valuable to the Jays in CF but the important thing is his bat rebounds). The power positions are the real question marks.

FA Ideas: I don't know if Guerrero might be open to a move to 1B but if so I think Mike Moustakas would be a terrific signing. Heck, even if Guerrero isn't maybe sign Moustakas and ask him to switch? Jose Abreu will be the big name power bat at 1B but I think he'll be over valued.

Pitching Staff:

Chase Anderson
?

Some Notes: Obviously this is the biggest question mark. There are some interesting young options with guys like Reid-Foley, Pearson, Zeuch, Kay and so on but I don't know if any of them look like sure bets to make big impacts next year. It may have to be another year of a patchwork rotation.

FA Ideas: Obviously all of the big sexy headlines will be about Strasburg and Cole but personally I don't want to see the Jays anywhere near those conversations. Both guys will be looking for 7 years and 200+ million and no thanks. I kind of like Tanner Roark as a reliable MLB capable starter who could maybe be signed to a reasonable deal.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on November 10, 2019, 02:04:36 PM
Odorizzi and Miley would be good targets for the staff. I would bring back Shoemaker. Hopefully Kay can land a spot in the rotation. I'd like Puig in the outfield.

Jays have a lot of options this off-season and I think it's time to improve the roster, they have some good pieces to build around. It'll be interesting what Shapiro and Atkins can get done.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on November 10, 2019, 02:06:44 PM
Odorizzi and Miley would be good targets for the staff. I would bring back Shoemaker. I'd like Puig in the outfield.

I agree about Odorizzi being a good signing. I just worry that he may have inflated his value a little with his very good W-L record.

Puig is an interesting idea but would that mean moving Grichuk to Center permanently?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on November 10, 2019, 02:11:07 PM
Odorizzi and Miley would be good targets for the staff. I would bring back Shoemaker. I'd like Puig in the outfield.

I agree about Odorizzi being a good signing. I just worry that he may have inflated his value a little with his very good W-L record.

Puig is an interesting idea but would that mean moving Grichuk to Center permanently?

I suppose, he plays the position well enough but personally I'd move on from him but that isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on November 14, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Odorizzi accepted his qualifying offer, which is kind of a surprise. So there goes that.

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on November 15, 2019, 02:06:05 PM

It had been rumoured but the Pirates hired the Jays' VP of Baseball Ops Ben Cherington as their new GM.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on November 15, 2019, 03:36:45 PM

It had been rumoured but the Pirates hired the Jays' VP of Baseball Ops Ben Cherington as their new GM.

You never want to hold people back from advancing their careers but this is a blow to the organization.

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on November 15, 2019, 04:59:17 PM

It had been rumoured but the Pirates hired the Jays' VP of Baseball Ops Ben Cherington as their new GM.

You never want to hold people back from advancing their careers but this is a blow to the organization.

Sure but I think that given Cherington's resume it would have been safe to assume he was going to be a GM hire at some point so I have to assume he was seen as a temporary employee regardless.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on November 15, 2019, 07:14:49 PM

It had been rumoured but the Pirates hired the Jays' VP of Baseball Ops Ben Cherington as their new GM.

You never want to hold people back from advancing their careers but this is a blow to the organization.

Sure but I think that given Cherington's resume it would have been safe to assume he was going to be a GM hire at some point so I have to assume he was seen as a temporary employee regardless.

Oh no doubt but it’s a big loss to the scouting/drafting for the team. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on November 17, 2019, 11:22:52 AM
The starting rotation will most likely be some combination of :

Roark/Tehran/Shoemaker
Chase Andersen
Thornton
Kay
Zeuch
Waguespack

This is not promising. 

Atkins won't have a chance at any of the big arms Stras, Cole, Wheeler so he'll have to settle for the 2nd or 3rd tier pitchers.  A better way to shore up the rotation is via trade.

I'd like them to take a shot at Calhoun.  He can play all 3 outfield positions and he can be had for round $7MM.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 03, 2019, 03:03:35 PM
Rosenthal is saying the Jays are among the teams pursuing Zack Wheeler.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 03, 2019, 03:42:15 PM

I think Wheeler's a pretty good pitcher but for 100+ million? Eep.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 04, 2019, 09:23:15 AM
Atkins bought Rosenthal lunch

not happening unless it's a massive overpay
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2019, 11:23:47 AM
Atkins bought Rosenthal lunch

not happening unless it's a massive overpay

To some extent or another that's always been true of the Jays and free agents. They can sign them but only if they're the last guys in the room and willing to be the highest bidder. Wheeler's not a guy I'd do that with.

Real success with this team is going to come through the farm system and building from within. I know the people who want the Jays to be competitive every year won't like that but it's unavoidable.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 04, 2019, 01:29:36 PM

I think Wheeler's a pretty good pitcher but for 100+ million? Eep.

Giving up the 5th pick in the 2nd round is tough too.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: pmrules on December 04, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
Wheeler signs in Philly for $118M/5 years.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2019, 03:06:03 PM

Yeah, they're welcome to him at that price.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on December 04, 2019, 04:48:43 PM
I'm going to be frustrated with the team because it really isn't going to be better than last year but you just can't get upset at not paying a guy stupid money.  Wheeler is a good pitcher, he's not a 23 million dollar pitcher.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 04, 2019, 05:01:55 PM
The starting rotation will most likely be some combination of :

Roark/Tehran/Shoemaker
Chase Andersen
Thornton
Kay
Zeuch
Waguespack

This is not promising. 

Atkins won't have a chance at any of the big arms Stras, Cole, Wheeler so he'll have to settle for the 2nd or 3rd tier pitchers.  A better way to shore up the rotation is via trade.

I'd like them to take a shot at Calhoun.  He can play all 3 outfield positions and he can be had for round $7MM.

Borucki could be a part of that as well if he can get his health in order.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 04, 2019, 05:20:50 PM
I'm going to be frustrated with the team because it really isn't going to be better than last year but you just can't get upset at not paying a guy stupid money.  Wheeler is a good pitcher, he's not a 23 million dollar pitcher.

And apparently it wasn't his highest offer.

Improvement is going to be internal. They might add a piece or so in free agency but that's not where the problem is going to be solved.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 08, 2019, 12:41:27 PM
The starting rotation will most likely be some combination of :

Roark/Tehran/Shoemaker
Chase Andersen
Thornton
Kay
Zeuch
Waguespack

This is not promising. 

Atkins won't have a chance at any of the big arms Stras, Cole, Wheeler so he'll have to settle for the 2nd or 3rd tier pitchers.  A better way to shore up the rotation is via trade.

I'd like them to take a shot at Calhoun.  He can play all 3 outfield positions and he can be had for round $7MM.

Borucki could be a part of that as well if he can get his health in order.
Don't think we are going to have to wait too long to add Pearson to the list. Kay may surprise as well. I liked his stuff in the few games he played in September.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 09, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
The starting rotation will most likely be some combination of :

Roark/Tehran/Shoemaker
Chase Andersen
Thornton
Kay
Zeuch
Waguespack

This is not promising. 

Atkins won't have a chance at any of the big arms Stras, Cole, Wheeler so he'll have to settle for the 2nd or 3rd tier pitchers.  A better way to shore up the rotation is via trade.

I'd like them to take a shot at Calhoun.  He can play all 3 outfield positions and he can be had for round $7MM.

Borucki could be a part of that as well if he can get his health in order.
Don't think we are going to have to wait too long to add Pearson to the list. Kay may surprise as well. I liked his stuff in the few games he played in September.

Pearson is the 2nd best pitching prospect in baseball so can't wait for him to arrive.  Still though we will need 2 more legit starters.  Like Stroman - lol
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 10, 2019, 12:16:20 PM
The starting rotation will most likely be some combination of :

Roark/Tehran/Shoemaker
Chase Andersen
Thornton
Kay
Zeuch
Waguespack

This is not promising. 

Atkins won't have a chance at any of the big arms Stras, Cole, Wheeler so he'll have to settle for the 2nd or 3rd tier pitchers.  A better way to shore up the rotation is via trade.

I'd like them to take a shot at Calhoun.  He can play all 3 outfield positions and he can be had for round $7MM.

Borucki could be a part of that as well if he can get his health in order.
Don't think we are going to have to wait too long to add Pearson to the list. Kay may surprise as well. I liked his stuff in the few games he played in September.

Pearson is the 2nd best pitching prospect in baseball so can't wait for him to arrive.  Still though we will need 2 more legit starters.  Like Stroman - lol
2 bad about the Strobro but dat is da game...Sanchez looks like he is going the way of the Dodo.  To bad about his problems.  Jays have Pearson and Manoah who is projected to be another beast and several other good arms in the pipeline. I know the pitching is coming like the cavalry, maybe not fast enough to save this years wagon train but 2021 looks a lot better.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Frank E on December 11, 2019, 09:20:51 AM
Is anyone advocating signing a top-tier pitcher to a bananas contract like Cole even as a defensive measure so that Boston and the Yankees don't get stacked again?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 11, 2019, 10:04:01 AM

Is anyone advocating signing a top-tier pitcher to a bananas contract like Cole even as a defensive measure so that Boston and the Yankees don't get stacked again?

That's not really practical. With the resources those teams have there's always going to be someone they'll be able to spend money on.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 11, 2019, 12:29:24 PM

Is anyone advocating signing a top-tier pitcher to a bananas contract like Cole even as a defensive measure so that Boston and the Yankees don't get stacked again?

That's not really practical. With the resources those teams have there's always going to be someone they'll be able to spend money on.

Very few guys in the history of baseball have been good for 9 straight years. Let the Yankees deal with the contract after it goes sideways. Yankees have the dough to do that. The Jays do not.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 11, 2019, 12:34:11 PM
Very few guys in the history of baseball have been good for 9 straight years. Let the Yankees deal with the contract after it goes sideways. Yankees have the dough to do that. The Jays do not.

I think that's well said. It's not just that the Yankees have the ability to pay a pitcher 36 million a year, it's that if they only get 4 or 5 good years out of Cole they can chalk it up as a win and just eat the rest as a sunk cost.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 11, 2019, 01:19:35 PM
Very few guys in the history of baseball have been good for 9 straight years. Let the Yankees deal with the contract after it goes sideways. Yankees have the dough to do that. The Jays do not.

I think that's well said. It's not just that the Yankees have the ability to pay a pitcher 36 million a year, it's that if they only get 4 or 5 good years out of Cole they can chalk it up as a win and just eat the rest as a sunk cost.
True dat! Jays need Dubas to come over and negotiate the big money contracts.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 11, 2019, 06:17:06 PM
Jays add SP Tanner Roark, 24/2
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Frank E on December 11, 2019, 06:23:18 PM
Jays add SP Tanner Roark, 24/2

Are we happy with this addition?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 11, 2019, 06:24:06 PM
Good signing, I think. A #3/4 guy but a solid inning eater.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 11, 2019, 06:50:07 PM
A little pricier than I expected him to go for (I figured closer to $10M per) but a solid and reliable middle to back of the rotation guy.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 11, 2019, 11:04:02 PM
I like the signing. Now sign Keuchel, and one of Teheran or Miley and we’re set.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on December 12, 2019, 11:35:45 AM
A little pricier than I expected him to go for (I figured closer to $10M per) but a solid and reliable middle to back of the rotation guy.

I mean every pitcher is getting overpaid at this point.  The rotation needed help and he's a decent option.  I'm still hoping they can come to an agreement with Ryu but I see him more likely staying in California.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 12:36:27 PM
A little pricier than I expected him to go for (I figured closer to $10M per) but a solid and reliable middle to back of the rotation guy.

Its a real solid signing (pundits where calling for 18M for two, so the deal is still very OK). 

So if Pearson can make a successful jump and Shoemaker plays like he did until his injury then we may have a solid, yet unspectacular starting rotation.   The money being paid to some of the top line pitchers is insane and not a route the Jays should take.  As Nik posted they have to build from within.

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 02:07:26 PM
After some further review and a misreading in an article from this AM,  I am not that enthralled by the signing.  We did overpay, although it seems if you can throw a ball over a plate, that you get over 4M a year.  Rourke is 33 and perhaps should have rated at 6 to 8M a year.
His HR count at the end of last year was atrocious.  Hope our outfielders have springs on their shoes so they can jump higher than the fence...a lot higher than the fence. ;)
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 12, 2019, 02:29:16 PM
Happ?  Encarnacion?



https://www.thestar.com/sports/blue_jays_baseball_blog/2019/12/10/blue-jays-need-more-than-pitching-at-mlb-s-winter-meetings.html
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 12, 2019, 05:36:43 PM
Happ?  Encarnacion?



https://www.thestar.com/sports/blue_jays_baseball_blog/2019/12/10/blue-jays-need-more-than-pitching-at-mlb-s-winter-meetings.html
Edwin come home.  Jay Hapless, not so much!
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Captain Canuck on December 12, 2019, 07:48:16 PM
I'm okay with Roark as a #3 starter, but not as our ace. He'll at least help prevent the rotation become a revolving door as he should stay healthy and eat a lot of innings.
Hopefully there is still another higher caliber starter added to the mix for next season. I'd like Ryu as well, but not sure he'd come to Toronto.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 14, 2019, 01:08:39 PM
Great thing about Jays baseball to me. I don't take it seriously (unless they make the playoffs-unlikely), its a great time-wasting, relaxing, time to have a few beers, a burger or doggie, and listen to the dulcet tones of Buck droning me into a semi catatonic happy place, where even neighbour's lawn mowers can't piss me off.  Win or lose, no problem.

Now with the Leafs....
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 18, 2019, 07:15:21 AM
Jays sign Japanese pitcher Shun Yamaguchi:

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 20, 2019, 08:27:48 AM

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/tanner-roarks-steadiness-opens-possibilities-blue-jays/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/tanner-roarks-steadiness-opens-possibilities-blue-jays/)

According to Davidi the Jays are still in on Ryu but may choose to wait a year to look at adding expensive pitching. They also talk about the possibility of trading for David Price.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on December 21, 2019, 09:11:37 AM
The free agent class next year is Robbie Ray, James Paxton and Trevor Bauer (and Stroman).

I’m not really seeing the big upside to waiting for next years crop unless the hope is that the insane prices revert back next offseason.   
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 21, 2019, 11:52:49 AM
The free agent class next year is Robbie Ray, James Paxton and Trevor Bauer (and Stroman).

I’m not really seeing the big upside to waiting for next years crop unless the hope is that the insane prices revert back next offseason.

I think it's less about there being a huge upside and more about being unsure about Ryu who, although he had a big year, doesn't have a history of consistency or durability.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 21, 2019, 12:37:56 PM
The free agent class next year is Robbie Ray, James Paxton and Trevor Bauer (and Stroman).

I’m not really seeing the big upside to waiting for next years crop unless the hope is that the insane prices revert back next offseason.

It's what happens when you run the team into the ground and now they can't get players to come here.  There was no reason to trade Stroman - he could have anchored this rotation for the next few seasons. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on December 21, 2019, 10:01:24 PM
The free agent class next year is Robbie Ray, James Paxton and Trevor Bauer (and Stroman).

I’m not really seeing the big upside to waiting for next years crop unless the hope is that the insane prices revert back next offseason.

I think it's less about there being a huge upside and more about being unsure about Ryu who, although he had a big year, doesn't have a history of consistency or durability.

Consistency is going to be an issue with the top free agent class next year too.   You also aren’t signing Ray or Bauer for 80 million
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 21, 2019, 11:21:09 PM
Consistency is going to be an issue with the top free agent class next year too.   You also aren’t signing Ray or Bauer for 80 million

Well, the way I heard it is that the real question in some people's minds is Paxton vs. Ryu. Honestly, at the free agent prices going around, I don't really like any of those guys.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 22, 2019, 12:41:28 PM
Way to much money, doesn't baseball have a cap and if not, why not??
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on December 22, 2019, 02:38:17 PM
Jays go dumpster diving to get a new 1B.  Travis Shaw who had two good years in SAN Diego and then was abysmal last year.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: A Weekend at Bernier's on December 22, 2019, 02:41:36 PM
Jays go dumpster diving to get a new 1B.  Travis Shaw who had two good years in SAN Diego and then was abysmal last year.

Hoping Shaw is more of a utility infield type.  He's played more third than first, and has also played second in his career.  It's a dumpster dive for sure, but the guy drove in 100+ two years ago.  It could be a good find if it works out. 

My biggest concern is that this is in fact the first base platoon with Telez and that they're not going to sign EE.  If that's the case, I'm pissed.  As a utility infielder, I'm good with this move.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 22, 2019, 05:29:36 PM
Shaw is a a weird case, projections willbe near impossible. One thing is sure, he must hit or its yet another shitty signing.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on December 22, 2019, 11:33:48 PM
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 22, 2019, 11:39:11 PM

Well, I'm not huge on this because of the risk factors but this should at least close off some of the "The Jays can't sign anyone" talk.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 23, 2019, 12:06:17 AM

Well, I'm not huge on this because of the risk factors but this should at least close off some of the "The Jays can't sign anyone" talk.

I’m not a big fan of the signing either but I like it because it will shut up the people who say that this front office won’t or can’t sign a significant free agent
.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 23, 2019, 12:47:27 AM
I like it but have to ask did they change course?  I mean what happened to the slow and patient re-build they keep preaching. Honestly, as the 3rd largest city in NA we should be trying to win the WS every single season.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 23, 2019, 01:26:49 AM
I like it but have to ask did they change course?  I mean what happened to the slow and patient re-build they keep preaching. Honestly, as the 3rd largest city in NA we should be trying to win the WS every single season.

The teams that have actually won things in recent years are teams that have done so with players they develop themselves. "Trying to win" by spending like drunken sailors every winter might make fans feel better but there's no real case that it actually involves any actual championships.

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 23, 2019, 04:52:10 AM
Ryu is a fastball master and is in command of his pitches.
“Control” means where the pitch (ball) is supposed to go in the zone but “Command” means where you want your pitch (ball) to be.  Two different things yet similar. 

Name                Team           Zero-K FB%         swSTR               Command+
Hyun-Jin Ryu     Dodgers           48.4%             11.5%                 112
Marco Gonzales Mariners         34.5%               8.4%                    111
Kyle Gibson      Twins              52.1%              13.5%                   110
Noah Syndergaard Mets          58.9%              11.7%                   107
Tanner Roark    Reds               53.1%               8.8%                    106
Merrill Kelly      D-backs          49.6%               8.9%                    106
Cole Hamels     Cubs              54.9%              11.1%                    104
Ivan Nova        White Sox       54.3%               8.5%                     102
Rick Porcello     Red Sox         58.1%               7.6%                     102
Jake Odorizzi    Twins              58.8%             12.7%                     101
Mike Fiers        Athletics          50.7%              7.2%                       99
Trevor Cahill    Angels            40.2%               9.4%                       98


Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: bustaheims on December 23, 2019, 08:32:47 AM
A healthy Ryu would be a true #1 starter, which would be huge - and, at a relative bargain compared to what other top flight pitchers have signed for. Obviously, health and age are a concern, but, he's not a power pitcher, so, as long as he can stay healthy, I'm not super worried about the aging curve.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 23, 2019, 09:03:51 AM
I like it but have to ask did they change course?  I mean what happened to the slow and patient re-build they keep preaching. Honestly, as the 3rd largest city in NA we should be trying to win the WS every single season.

The teams that have actually won things in recent years are teams that have done so with players they develop themselves. "Trying to win" by spending like drunken sailors every winter might make fans feel better but there's no real case that it actually involves any actual championships.

I disagree with this.  The successful teams need to be active on 4 fronts:
First Year Player Draft
International signings
Trades
Free Agent signings

Atkins and company have mentioned the Astros as a team they would like to model themselves on and as one that was built through the draft.  While they have done well drafting, by being active in free agency and trades is what got them to where they are now.

Drafted
Altuve
Springer
Correa
Bregman

International amateur signings
Alvarez
Gurriel

Mostly of the other impact players were obtained via trade or FA signings.
Verlander
Cole
Greinke
Osuna
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 23, 2019, 09:08:37 AM
All of the guys you list as impact guys they got via trade and free agency(and none were free agents, they were all traded for) were guys they got after they had rebuilt themselves internally. Nobody is saying you never make trades or add free agents just that you first need to draft guys like Correa and Bregman which you can't do unless you rebuild and are bad for a while.

Because, aside from everything else, you need to build up your system so that you're able to put the pieces in a trade that land you guys like Cole/Verlander/Greinke.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 23, 2019, 09:23:48 AM
All of the guys you list as impact guys they got via trade and free agency(and none were free agents, they were all traded for) were guys they got after they had rebuilt themselves internally. Nobody is saying you never make trades or add free agents just that you first need to draft guys like Correa and Bregman which you can't do unless you rebuild and are bad for a while.

Because, aside from everything else, you need to build up your system so that you're able to put the pieces in a trade that land you guys like Cole/Verlander/Greinke.

Actually Altuve was not drafted he was signed as an Amateur Free Agent.

Point is they are active on all fronts to improve the team.  Shatkins narrative up until now, has been patience and build through the draft but I believe the pressure to field a winning team forced their hand a bit and they went out and got Ryu.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 23, 2019, 09:27:00 AM
It's probably also worth mentioning that the team you're saying is evidence of the way the Astros were built for Championships is the 2019 Astros who didn't win the title and not the 2017 Astros who did. They didnt have Cole or Greinke or Osuna and only had Verlander for the second half of the season and the playoffs.

The 2017 Astros were much more about guys they developed internally and not very exciting guys like Mike Fiers, Charlie Morton and Brian McCann.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 23, 2019, 09:30:23 AM
Also, I don't think Shapiro or Atkins have ever specified the draft as the only way to add amateur talent into the farm system. I'm pretty sure they know about and appreciate the value of signing amateur free agents as they signed more than 30 international guys this summer.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 23, 2019, 01:02:42 PM

Apparently with the Ryu deal done, Scott Boras has now negotiated more than a billion dollars worth of deals for his Clients this off-season between Cole, Strasburg, Rendon, Keuchel, Moustakas and some others.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Arn on December 23, 2019, 04:56:18 PM
I kind of like what they've done, but I liked what they did in abut 2013 when they brought in Dickey, Cabrera etc and that didn't really pay off so let's hope this one goes a bit better.

The rotation has gone from a load of bit parts to potentially fairly decent. If the kids can kick on there's potential to be only a few games back of a wild card berth. The team now should definitely go a few games above 500 though barring injuries etc
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 24, 2019, 07:48:59 AM
Honestly, as the 3rd largest city in NA we should be trying to win the WS every single season.

Just to quickly say that this is both A) untrue and B) largely meaningless. It's untrue because Mexico is in North America and it's meaningless because the population of the city itself isn't really relevant when talking about how much money a team is generating. Chicago, by any meaningful measurement, is bigger than Toronto as are the cities in Texas with baseball teams. Ranked by Metro area Toronto ranks 6th in the US and Canada with 6-9 being separated by around 100,000 people(or roughly 1.6%).

Sure, ok, Toronto is still within the group of larger cities in Baseball but they are also taking in dollars worth 75% of their competitors while still having to pay US salaries.

So if you really try to get a sense of where the Jays "should" be in terms of payroll it's probably closer to 10-15 then it is the top 3.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: sickbeast on December 26, 2019, 08:59:00 PM
I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised by the Ryu signing.  The Jays will be a more interesting team to watch now.  They could still use more pitching, but at the same time they have plenty of guys who could use development at the MLB level.

I'm kind of intrigued by the David Price talk.  My guess is that ship has sailed now that they have Ryu.  But who knows.  The Jays could certainly use at least one more solid pitcher for the rotation if they have any aspirations of competing this season.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Andy on December 27, 2019, 06:11:45 AM

I'm kind of intrigued by the David Price talk.  My guess is that ship has sailed now that they have Ryu.  But who knows.  The Jays could certainly use at least one more solid pitcher for the rotation if they have any aspirations of competing this season.

I think the Price talk was the Jays pressuring the Ryu camp into making a decision, especially since the rumours have really died down now that Ryu signed. I'd still be interested too, but if you have to give up assets AND take a huge chunk of that salary I'm not sure it makes that much sense.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 27, 2019, 07:04:29 AM

I'm kind of intrigued by the David Price talk.  My guess is that ship has sailed now that they have Ryu.  But who knows.  The Jays could certainly use at least one more solid pitcher for the rotation if they have any aspirations of competing this season.

I think the Price talk was the Jays pressuring the Ryu camp into making a decision, especially since the rumours have really died down now that Ryu signed. I'd still be interested too, but if you have to give up assets AND take a huge chunk of that salary I'm not sure it makes that much sense.

I sort of feel it was the other way around. That the Jays were hedging their bets a bit on Ryu and would have been genuinely interested in taking Price and even paying him a decent sized chunk of his salary in the event that Ryu went elsewhere. With Ryu on board, whether by necessity or just self-interest, I think the Jays are probably less willing to take on a big chunk of Price's money and there's a point at which trading Price and not shedding enough of his salary just doesn't make sense for the Red Sox.

The question as I see it is at what point does Price have real value. Right now he's got 3 years at 32 million a year left and I think we'd all agree he's nowhere near that kind of pitcher and wouldn't get close to that as a free agent. But if the Red Sox ate money so that he was, say, 3 years and 17 per? 15? 12? I think somewhere in there is where he starts to have value.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Andy on December 27, 2019, 09:02:17 AM
Sure, or it could have been a mixture of the two. Certainly Price has some potential value and fits a hole so obviously it would have been a avenue to explore but I think that Ryu was easily target #1 and I wouldn't be surprised if some of that Price interest was leaked to pressure Ryu into making a quicker decision. I'm just spit-balling a bit here anyway.

I think taking Price at half of the remaining salary is where his value comes into play but that also means you're probably giving up some kind of meaningful prospect (or two) and I'm not so sure that's worth it at this stage.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 27, 2019, 09:43:59 AM
I think taking Price at half of the remaining salary is where his value comes into play but that also means you're probably giving up some kind of meaningful prospect (or two) and I'm not so sure that's worth it at this stage.

I think that's more or less right but I think the ultimate issue will be how desperate Boston is to cut payroll and what other teams might be willing to take a chance on Price. If there is another team willing to give up real prospects to pay Price 16 million per then I'd probably be with you that I wouldn't be on board with the Jays trying to match that.

If Boston doesn't move Betts or Martinez though and it would only take some fringe prospects? That's where there'd be a real upshot to being involved.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on December 27, 2019, 11:19:50 AM
Without signing Ryu I'm on board with Price, but yeah, I don't think that there is a great price point where his value is going to be worth the salary.  The Red Sox either eat the majority of his contract and then want stuff in return or you take on too much salary and it affects the internal cap.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on December 27, 2019, 04:32:51 PM

I'm kind of intrigued by the David Price talk.  My guess is that ship has sailed now that they have Ryu.  But who knows.  The Jays could certainly use at least one more solid pitcher for the rotation if they have any aspirations of competing this season.

I think the Price talk was the Jays pressuring the Ryu camp into making a decision, especially since the rumours have really died down now that Ryu signed. I'd still be interested too, but if you have to give up assets AND take a huge chunk of that salary I'm not sure it makes that much sense.

Atkins leaked the rumor and it worked.  The training wheels have come off
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on December 27, 2019, 09:21:58 PM
The Price is not right, but would take a hit on Edwin for a season.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on December 28, 2019, 04:09:52 AM

Ryu is no stranger to Toronto, well, kind of...this is where he wants to be:

Quote
“I came here in 2013 and experienced some of the Korean fervour of the fans. So I am asking for the Korean fans in Toronto to come out and support me even more now that I’m a Toronto Blue Jay.”

The Korean journo complement wanted to know: Where are you going to live, where will you eat?

“There’s some time for me to get adjusted,” he demurred. Albeit added the customary observation: “It’s an incredibly clean city and it’s a joy for me to be here.”

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/opinion/2019/12/27/blue-jays-ace-and-joker-hyun-jin-ryu-makes-himself-at-home-in-incredibly-clean-toronto.html


About him wearing #99...his agent quipped:

Quote
Given Ryu will wear No. 99, one reporter made a point to ask about Wayne Gretzky during the half-hour media availability. A grinning Boras, well-versed in the seismic Gretzky trade between the Edmonton Oilers and Los Angeles Kings in 1988, took the lead on the reply.

"Canada lent No. 99 to LA," Boras said. "So with Hyun-Jin, we thought we would return it back to Canada."

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/hello-canada-ace-left-hander-hyun-jin-ryu-signs-with-toronto-blue-jays-1.4744844
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Joe S. on December 28, 2019, 12:57:45 PM
The Price is not right, but would take a hit on Edwin for a season.

He signed with the white Sox.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Frank E on December 28, 2019, 04:36:44 PM
Who's this Yamaguchi fellow?  Is he likely to be in the rotation?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Dappleganger on December 28, 2019, 04:44:00 PM
Who's this Yamaguchi fellow?  Is he likely to be in the rotation?

He'll be fighting for one of the back of the rotation spots.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on December 28, 2019, 04:59:02 PM
Who's this Yamaguchi fellow?  Is he likely to be in the rotation?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=yamagu001shu (https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=yamagu001shu)
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Frank E on December 30, 2019, 02:36:05 PM
Who's this Yamaguchi fellow?  Is he likely to be in the rotation?

He'll be fighting for one of the back of the rotation spots.

Thank you for that.  Wasn't sure if he was specifically acquired as a reliever. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 10, 2020, 05:07:12 PM

The Jays have reached agreements with Brandon Drury, Ken Giles and Matt Shoemaker, avoiding arbitration with all of them.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Joe S. on January 10, 2020, 06:18:10 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/42abaea97d57df9105ee5cef9a582471/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on January 11, 2020, 09:25:21 AM
Brandon Drury and Derek Fisher are two guys I'm not excited to see get playing time next year. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 12:32:05 PM
Brandon Drury and Derek Fisher are two guys I'm not excited to see get playing time next year.

100%

Atkins needs to cut his losses and just move on from both of them.

Urena was claimed by by the Orioles.  He's only 23, they gave up on him way to quickly - seems like he didn't even get a fair chance to show his stuff.  Who knows...maybe he could have been used in the OF. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Andy on January 11, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
Urena turns 24 in February. His AAA career OPS is .660. His AA career OPS is .650. What am I missing here?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: bustaheims on January 11, 2020, 05:43:50 PM
Urena turns 24 in February. His AAA career OPS is .660. His AA career OPS is .650. What am I missing here?

I don’t think you’re missing anything. Urena is a replacement level player. He doesn’t do anything particularly well - or even above average. He’s a weak hitter with poor OBP, and he’s not an especially good defensive player, either. He’s a bench utility guy at best.

He’s basically a similar value player to Drury and Fisher, but with much less power potential.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 06:20:45 PM
Urena turns 24 in February. His AAA career OPS is .660. His AA career OPS is .650. What am I missing here?

Fisher had a .924+ OPS in AAA and he sucks.

You can't just look at the numbers in isolation.   Urena needs to be developed.  He was having a good season in 2018 and started out well in 2019 then they send him down.  That messed him up.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Andy on January 11, 2020, 07:50:04 PM
You need to develop the 24yo .600 AAA OPS guy? Who's blocked by literally the Jays' entire infield? Really?
And funny thing, Fisher has only 130 more MLB at bats than Urena. So he hasn't had a fair chance either, and he actually DID produce in the minors.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 08:24:41 PM
You need to develop the 24yo .600 AAA OPS guy? Who's blocked by literally the Jays' entire infield? Really?
And funny thing, Fisher has only 130 more MLB at bats than Urena. So he hasn't had a fair chance either, and he actually DID produce in the minors.

Yes you do need to develop him.  It's the whole point of the draft, acquire assets and maximize their value - either use them within or trade them for other assets.   Drury and Fisher both suck and they proved it last season and both are more than 2 years older than Urena.  Shatkins has a thing for player they acquired - how else to explain his love for Drury and Fisher?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 08:28:51 PM
Brandon Drury and Derek Fisher are two guys I'm not excited to see get playing time next year.

I think we could all agree that if Drury gets anything close to the 450 plate appearances he had last year it'd be a bad sign but I think he's got real value to the team as a bench player who you can put at 5 or 6 positions and not embarrass himself while hoping his offensive numbers rebound a little to where they were in Arizona.

This is especially true, I think, if the Jays at some point this year get realistic about Vladdy Jr's future as a defensive player. Having an inhouse guy to slide in there may make the transition slightly easier.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 08:32:05 PM
how else to explain his love for Drury and Fisher?

Well, in Drury's case it's that he's shown he can hit Major League pitching at a reasonable clip over a full season and likewise Fisher with minor league pitching. With Urena you're hoping that you can just say the word "development" and it be some sort of magic wand that turns a bad minor league hitter into a good major league hitter.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 09:08:29 PM
how else to explain his love for Drury and Fisher?

Well, in Drury's case it's that he's shown he can hit Major League pitching at a reasonable clip over a full season and likewise Fisher with minor league pitching. With Urena you're hoping that you can just say the word "development" and it be some sort of magic wand that turns a bad minor league hitter into a good major league hitter.

Drury hasn't been relevant since 2017. 

Urena has some good winter ball numbers.  We will see.  I was hoping they try him in the OF, maybe he turns into a LGJ light.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 09:12:00 PM
Drury hasn't been relevant since 2017

Ok. Urena has never been relevant.

Feel free to think that the Jays could turn him into something if you want and I'm sure your expert scouting opinion will be given all the respect it deserves but I don't think the rest of us are going to see the Jays preferring to go with guys who have some sort of proven aptitude at hitting professional pitching as an unfathomable mystery that needs to be explained.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 09:22:24 PM
Drury hasn't been relevant since 2017

Ok. Urena has never been relevant.

Feel free to think that the Jays could turn him into something if you want and I'm sure your expert scouting opinion will be given all the respect it deserves but I don't think the rest of us are going to see the Jays preferring to go with guys who have some sort of proven aptitude at hitting professional pitching as an unfathomable mystery that needs to be explained.

development comes with opportunity, playing time and patience- it's not magic.  Shapiro himself has mentioned this numerous times. 

They needed to maximize his value.  Remember Gurriel?  he was a disaster in the infield, couldn't throw a ball if his life dependent on it, he was sent down and by chance found himself in LF.  No magic.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 09:30:06 PM
They needed to maximize his value.  Remember Gurriel?  he was a disaster in the infield, couldn't throw a ball if his life dependent on it, he was sent down and by chance found himself in LF.  No magic.

And likewise, the Jays had Urena and he couldn't hit. So they sent him down to the high minors and gave him a ton of at bats and he still couldn't hit. So, despite those years of attempted development, they eventually realized that bad minor league hitters don't just flip a switch and become good major league hitters and moved on.

They have other guys they can give at bats to. Nothing Urena did, in the minors or in the big leagues, singled him out as being particularly worthy of exceptional patience or opportunity and that's before you factor in trying to shift positions with him.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 09:34:31 PM
They needed to maximize his value.  Remember Gurriel?  he was a disaster in the infield, couldn't throw a ball if his life dependent on it, he was sent down and by chance found himself in LF.  No magic.

And likewise, the Jays had Urena and he couldn't hit. So they sent him down to the high minors and gave him a ton of at bats and he still couldn't hit. So, despite those years of attempted development, they eventually realized that bad minor league hitters don't just flip a switch and become good major league hitters and moved on.

They have other guys they can give at bats to. Nothing Urena did, in the minors or in the big leagues, singled him out as being particularly worthy of exceptional patience or opportunity and that's before you factor in trying to shift positions with him.

He was the one of the best hitters coming of the gate in 2019 then this...
https://jaysjournal.com/2019/04/13/blue-jays-option-richard-urena-minors/
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 09:35:53 PM
Gurriel, though, was someone who could hit. He hit minor league pitching, then he hit major league pitching pretty well, then he hit minor league pitching again. Being patient with him defensively is not the same thing as hoping a 24 year old learns how to hit.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 09:38:33 PM
He was the one of the best hitters coming of the gate in 2019 then this...
https://jaysjournal.com/2019/04/13/blue-jays-option-richard-urena-minors/

24 at-bats. He had 8 hits in 24  at-bats. Then, over the course of the season, he firmly established why you don't pay attention to miniscule sample sizes with his continued inability to meaningfully hit minor league pitching.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 09:46:50 PM
He was the one of the best hitters coming of the gate in 2019 then this...
https://jaysjournal.com/2019/04/13/blue-jays-option-richard-urena-minors/

24 at-bats. He had 8 hits in 24  at-bats. Then, over the course of the season, he firmly established why you don't pay attention to miniscule sample sizes with his continued inability to meaningfully hit minor league pitching.

A young player that has a hot spring, remains hot to start the season, is one of the better hitters on the team is sent down in favor of Hanson and Brito.  We know how that worked out.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 09:48:18 PM
A young player that has a hot spring, remains hot to start the season, is one of the better hitters on the team is sent down...

Where he struggles to hit minor league pitching.

If he was really "one of the better hitters on the team" and not someone who had a handful of hits to start the year then he wouldn't have put up a sub .600 OPS in the minors.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 09:51:01 PM
A young player that has a hot spring, remains hot to start the season, is one of the better hitters on the team is sent down...

Where he struggles to hit minor league pitching.

If he was really "one of the better hitters on the team" and not someone who had a handful of hits to start the year then he wouldn't have put up a sub .600 OPS in the minors.

Yes he struggled.  What's your point?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Bender on January 11, 2020, 09:55:42 PM
A young player that has a hot spring, remains hot to start the season, is one of the better hitters on the team is sent down...

Where he struggles to hit minor league pitching.

If he was really "one of the better hitters on the team" and not someone who had a handful of hits to start the year then he wouldn't have put up a sub .600 OPS in the minors.

Yes he struggled.  What's your point?
I think he's made his point repeatedly lol.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 09:57:29 PM
A young player that has a hot spring, remains hot to start the season, is one of the better hitters on the team is sent down...

Where he struggles to hit minor league pitching.

If he was really "one of the better hitters on the team" and not someone who had a handful of hits to start the year then he wouldn't have put up a sub .600 OPS in the minors.

Yes he struggled.  What's your point?

I think it's made pretty clear in the second paragraph. He wasn't a "good hitter" because good hitters don't have sub .600 OPS in the minors. He had a handful of lucky games to start the season but the team brass knew he still wasn't a  MLB calibre hitter.

They sent him down to work on his hitting, he was atrocious in the minors so eventually they reached a conclusion that he wasn't much of a prospect and decided to instead favour guys who'd proven to be able to hit professional pitching.

Again, think they're wrong all you want but it's not like they're bucking some sort of conventional wisdom by not thinking a 24 year old with 2700 minor league at bats could all of a sudden become a good major league hitter.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 10:08:03 PM
A young player that has a hot spring, remains hot to start the season, is one of the better hitters on the team is sent down...

Where he struggles to hit minor league pitching.

If he was really "one of the better hitters on the team" and not someone who had a handful of hits to start the year then he wouldn't have put up a sub .600 OPS in the minors.

Yes he struggled.  What's your point?

Quote
I think it's made pretty clear in the second paragraph. He wasn't a "good hitter" because good hitters don't have sub .600 OPS in the minors. He had a handful of lucky games to start the season but the team brass knew he still wasn't a  MLB calibre hitter.

You seriously just said it was luck?  laughable.

Quote
They sent him down to work on his hitting, he was atrocious in the minors so eventually they reached a conclusion that he wasn't much of a prospect and decided to instead favour guys who'd proven to be able to hit professional pitching.

Show me one article where it says they sent him down to work on his hitting.

Quote
Again, think they're wrong all you want but it's not like they're bucking some sort of conventional wisdom by not thinking a 24 year old with 2700 minor league at bats could all of a sudden become a good major league hitter.

April/March
Socrates Brito: .310 OPS
Alen Hanson: .419 OPS
Urena : .740 OPS
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 10:20:18 PM
You seriously just said it was luck?  laughable.

If his .333 average over 24 at-bats to start the season was a reflection of his actual abilities as a hitter as opposed to the deviations that can occur by random chance in a tiny sample size then he'd have been able to hit within 120 points of that in the Minors. He wasn't, so, yeah. Luck.

Show me one article where it says they sent him down to work on his hitting.

I think I'd probably stick with the fact that he proved himself fairly incapable of hitting minor league pitching over the year. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 10:36:59 PM
You seriously just said it was luck?  laughable.

If his .333 average over 24 at-bats to start the season was a reflection of his actual abilities as a hitter as opposed to the deviations that can occur by random chance in a tiny sample size then he'd have been able to hit within 120 points of that in the Minors. He wasn't, so, yeah. Luck.

Send him down because he can't hit minor league pitching?   Come on.  Send him down to work on hitting because he's struggling to hit MLB pitching - absolutely.  We do know the Jays continued to struggle hitting all year and finish with one of the worst records in franchise history (bottom 5). 

I think it may have been a turning point in the kids career - unfortunately in the wrong direction - Atkins just messed up. 

Show me one article where it says they sent him down to work on his hitting.

Quote
I think I'd probably stick with the fact that he proved himself fairly incapable of hitting minor league pitching over the year.

What were his minor league numbers over those 2000+ AB's?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 10:42:48 PM
Send him down because he can't hit minor league pitching?

No, send him down because he's not a good hitter. Something he proved conclusively with his inability to hit minor league pitching.

Seriously. You, right now, are arguing that a guy who couldn't OPS .600 in the minor leagues would have been a good major league hitter. 

What were his minor league numbers over those 2000+ AB's?

I feel like you're just as capable of reading Baseball Reference as I am.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 11:06:19 PM
Send him down because he can't hit minor league pitching?

No, send him down because he's not a good hitter. Something he proved conclusively with his inability to hit minor league pitching.

Seriously. You, right now, are arguing that a guy who couldn't OPS .600 in the minor leagues would have been a good major league hitter. 

What were his minor league numbers over those 2000+ AB's?

I feel like you're just as capable of reading Baseball Reference as I am.

You are so stuck on his minor league numbers.  He had a career minors BA of .270 and he carried that over to the majors so....

I'm questioning Atkins judgement and his ability to asses talent.  He chose to go with Brito and Hanson over Urena and said this about Brito "there's incredible incredible upside and potential with him".
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 11, 2020, 11:19:11 PM
You are so stuck on his minor league numbers.

Yes. Because believe it or not there is no better indicator of whether or not someone will be a successful major league hitter.

He had a career minors BA of .270

His average by level:

Rookie Ball: .320
A: .266
High A: .286
AA: .251
AAA: .250

Those are the numbers of someone who can't hit minor league pitching, let alone major league pitching(Although OPS is much more meaningful than batting average but whatever at this point)

Urena's relatively ok 2018 hitting numbers were mainly the result of an unsustainable .424 BABIP so, again, pretty clearly the result of luck instead of any actual hitting ability which his subsequent stints in the minors confirmed.

I'm questioning Atkins judgement and his ability to asses talent.  He chose to go with Brito and Hanson over Urena and said this about Brito "there's incredible incredible upside and potential with him".

I'm not really invested in what decision Atkins made for his bench depth last year as opposed to what this conversation started being about(which was Urena vs. Drury or Fisher) but I think it's pretty clear that the decision was keeping Hansen around as the bench  INF while sending Urena to Buffalo where he could get at-bats and actual playing time while the team tried to develop him. Neither Urena or Hansen were going to get time over Galvis or Sogard so it was probably in the team's best interests to send the better prospect down.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Gerald The Duck on January 11, 2020, 11:44:44 PM
When I saw all the new posts in this thread I was excited to read about some new development/rumour...not to scroll through two pages on Richard Urena!?

Absolutely be a critic of Atkins if you want to Empire, but this seems like a poor choice of hill to die on, for the countless reasons that Nik and others have brought up.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 11, 2020, 11:48:55 PM
You are so stuck on his minor league numbers.

Yes. Because believe it or not there is no better indicator of whether or not someone will be a successful major league hitter.

Absolute statements like that don't work in baseball.  I think your looking at results and trying to fit them indto your argument.  2 examples below prove your belief is incorrect:

According to you:
Reese McGuire should not be in the majors because he can't hit minor league pitching
Derek Fisher should be in the major because he can hit minor league pitching

Using your belief system you would be wrong on both counts; and those are only 2 examples from the same team let alone checking all 30 MLB teams
 
 
He had a career minors BA of .270
Quote
His average by level:

Rookie Ball: .320
A: .266
High A: .286
AA: .251
AAA: .250

Those are the numbers of someone who can't hit minor league pitching, let alone major league pitching(Although OPS is much more meaningful than batting average but whatever at this point)

Urena's relatively ok 2018 hitting numbers were mainly the result of an unsustainable .424 BABIP so, again, pretty clearly the result of luck instead of any actual hitting ability which his subsequent stints in the minors confirmed.

I'm questioning Atkins judgement and his ability to asses talent.  He chose to go with Brito and Hanson over Urena and said this about Brito "there's incredible incredible upside and potential with him".

I'm not really invested in what decision Atkins made for his bench depth last year as opposed to what this conversation started being about(which was Urena vs. Drury or Fisher) but I think it's pretty clear that the decision was keeping Hansen around as the bench  INF while sending Urena to Buffalo where he could get at-bats and actual playing time while the team tried to develop him. Neither Urena or Hansen were going to get time over Galvis or Sogard so it was probably in the team's best interests to send the better prospect down.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 12, 2020, 12:01:03 AM
Absolute statements like that don't work in baseball.

Sure they do. Baseball is the most quantifiable of the sports and the sport where absolute statements based on quantifiable facts are the most likely to be applicable.

  I think your looking at results and trying to fit them indto your argument.  2 examples below prove your belief is incorrect:

According to you:
Reese McGuire should not be in the majors because he can't hit minor league pitching
Derek Fisher should be in the major because he can hit minor league pitching

Using your belief system you would be wrong on both counts; and those are only 2 examples from the same team let alone checking all 30 MLB teams

So this is just about complete nonsense. What I said is that hitting in the minor leagues is the single best indicator(and I hope I don't need to explain that "best" doesn't mean absolute) of whether or not someone will be a good hitter in the major leagues, not "hitting in the minor leagues is the only factor in whether or not someone should be a major leaguer". There are lots of first basemen who are better hitters than any SS but those SS earn their spots with their defensive abilities. Likewise, McGuire is in the major leagues because of his defensive position/abilities. Fisher, who so far hasn't proven he can hit major league pitching, doesn't factor into this at all.
 
None of this is applicable to the Urena situation.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 12, 2020, 12:02:31 AM
When I saw all the new posts in this thread I was excited to read about some new development/rumour...not to scroll through two pages on Richard Urena!?

Absolutely be a critic of Atkins if you want to Empire, but this seems like a poor choice of hill to die on, for the countless reasons that Nik and others have brought up.

On the surface it may look like a poor choice but Atkins thought process on most - if not every - major league move is the same.  Go down the list - Hanson, McKinney, Fisher, Brito....and it goes on and on.   

His drafting record is really good but it's been the complete opposite with MLB moves.  He's proven to be poor at assessing MLB talent this was just another example.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 12, 2020, 12:44:16 AM
Absolute statements like that don't work in baseball.

Sure they do. Baseball is the most quantifiable of the sports and the sport where absolute statements based on quantifiable facts are the most likely to be applicable.

Making a statement is not quantifying anything though.  It's just your opinion which is fine.

  I think your looking at results and trying to fit them indto your argument.  2 examples below prove your belief is incorrect:

According to you:
Reese McGuire should not be in the majors because he can't hit minor league pitching
Derek Fisher should be in the major because he can hit minor league pitching

Using your belief system you would be wrong on both counts; and those are only 2 examples from the same team let alone checking all 30 MLB teams
Quote
So this is just about complete nonsense. What I said is that hitting in the minor leagues is the single best indicator(and I hope I don't need to explain that "best" doesn't mean absolute) of whether or not someone will be a good hitter in the major leagues, not "hitting in the minor leagues is the only factor in whether or not someone should be a major leaguer". There are lots of first basemen who are better hitters than any SS but those SS earn their spots with their defensive abilities. Likewise, McGuire is in the major leagues because of his defensive position/abilities. Fisher, who so far hasn't proven he can hit major league pitching, doesn't factor into this at all.
 
None of this is applicable to the Urena situation.

Complete nonsense?  ok. 

The examples I showed you stand and they are very clear, you can chose to call them nonsense if you want....and I have another one below. 

McGuire is in the majors for his bat,  Jansen for his work behind the plate although they were drafted for the opposite reasons, McGuire for his glove and Jansen for his bat.   Not sure what your basing that off but McGuire has proved to be the better hitter and Jansen the better defender.  It's why top prospects require patience and an opportunity to show their stuff.  Urena, Jansen, McGuire were all in the top 100.  Yet another example with Jansen, he's proven to be a really good defender although that's not what got him to the majors.

Both would have never gotten to the majors using your "indicator".  So now 4 examples that goes against your statement "there's no better indicator..."

I would have gone with "a" or "one" indicator, that would have been more accurate
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 12, 2020, 01:49:38 AM
It's just your opinion which is fine.

It's emphatically not. If you know of a better indicator for being a good major league hitter than being a good minor league hitter, you're certainly welcome to suggest one and let it stand up to statistical scrutiny. 


The examples I showed you stand and they are very clear, you can chose to call them nonsense if you want...


Which I will because it's a clear indication that you aren't able to understand what I said.

McGuire is in the majors for his bat,  Jansen for his work behind the plate although they were drafted for the opposite reasons, McGuire for his glove and Jansen for his bat.

None of these are factual statements.

   Not sure what your basing that off but McGuire has proved to be the better hitter and Jansen the better defender.  It's why top prospects require patience and an opportunity to show their stuff.  Urena, Jansen, McGuire were all in the top 100.  Yet another example with Jansen, he's proven to be a really good defender although that's not what got him to the majors.

Both would have never gotten to the majors using your "indicator".

I think you've either stayed up too late or are just flailing around because you're no longer even writing coherent sentences.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Andy on January 12, 2020, 08:34:51 AM
Mind boggling conversation. And I thought pledging to be done with the team simply because they cut Ryan freakin Tepera was bad.....
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 12, 2020, 12:08:05 PM
It's just your opinion which is fine.

It's emphatically not. If you know of a better indicator for being a good major league hitter than being a good minor league hitter, you're certainly welcome to suggest one and let it stand up to statistical scrutiny. 

"Emphatically not"?  Ok.

There are numerous factors and variables, minor league numbers is only a factor, none are absolute.

The examples I showed you stand and they are very clear, you can chose to call them nonsense if you want...

Quote
Which I will because it's a clear indication that you aren't able to understand what I said.


Ok but not sure what you base that on.

McGuire is in the majors for his bat,  Jansen for his work behind the plate although they were drafted for the opposite reasons, McGuire for his glove and Jansen for his bat.

Quote
None of these are factual statements.

Yes it is factual.

Reese McGuire Career WAR 1.3 OPS+ 133
Danny Jansen Career WAR 1.7  OPS+ 79

Both are major league competent catchers but for different reasons.  McGuire has stuck due to his bat and to a lesser extent his glove, Jansen due to his receiving skills only atm.  Now things could change but as of now McGuire is the more gifted hitter while Jansen is a slightly better receiver.

Reese McGuire Career Minor league OPS .672. The Pirates gave up on him.
Danny Jansen Career Minor League OPS .777

MLB Pipeline Scouting Grades
Reese McGuire
 Hit: 50 | Power: 35 | Run: 45 | Arm: 55 | Field: 60 | Overall: 40
"...a gifted defensive catcher out of Washington, at No. 14."
"Defense will always be the driving force behind McGuire's game."

Danny Jansen
Hit: 55 | Power: 45 | Run: 30 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 55
"That Jansen makes a lot of contact, understands the strike zone and recognizes pitches well highlights his upside as an offensive-oriented catcher"

   Not sure what your basing that off but McGuire has proved to be the better hitter and Jansen the better defender.  It's why top prospects require patience and an opportunity to show their stuff.  Urena, Jansen, McGuire were all in the top 100.  Yet another example with Jansen, he's proven to be a really good defender although that's not what got him to the majors.

Both would have never gotten to the majors using your "indicator".

Quote
I think you've either stayed up too late or are just flailing around because you're no longer even writing coherent sentences.

Which sentence was not coherent?  I will try and re-word
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Bender on January 12, 2020, 12:16:11 PM
It's just your opinion which is fine.

It's emphatically not. If you know of a better indicator for being a good major league hitter than being a good minor league hitter, you're certainly welcome to suggest one and let it stand up to statistical scrutiny. 

"Emphatically not"?  Ok.

There are numerous factors and variables, minor league numbers is only a factor, none are absolute.

The examples I showed you stand and they are very clear, you can chose to call them nonsense if you want...

Quote
Which I will because it's a clear indication that you aren't able to understand what I said.
McGuire is in the majors for his bat,  Jansen for his work behind the plate although they were drafted for the opposite reasons, McGuire for his glove and Jansen for his bat.

Quote
None of these are factual statements.
   Not sure what your basing that off but McGuire has proved to be the better hitter and Jansen the better defender.  It's why top prospects require patience and an opportunity to show their stuff.  Urena, Jansen, McGuire were all in the top 100.  Yet another example with Jansen, he's proven to be a really good defender although that's not what got him to the majors.

Both would have never gotten to the majors using your "indicator".

Quote
I think you've either stayed up too late or are just flailing around because you're no longer even writing coherent sentences.

Which sentence was not coherent?  I will try and re-word
I think anyone reading this thread have already made up their minds based on the arguments presented. Can we move on?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 12, 2020, 12:20:31 PM
There are numerous factors and variables, minor league numbers is only a factor, none are absolute.

Right. So that's why I said:

Quote
What I said is that hitting in the minor leagues is the single best indicator(and I hope I don't need to explain that "best" doesn't mean absolute)

Now, clearly I did need to explain that to you as all of your subsequent posts seemed to entirely misunderstand that very basic premise. Likewise, saying that minor league hitting numbers are the best indicator we have of successful major league hitting does not, repeat does not, conclusively say who should or who shouldn't be in the majors so all of your "examples" are just nonsense.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on January 12, 2020, 12:25:16 PM
There are numerous factors and variables, minor league numbers is only a factor, none are absolute.

Right. So that's why I said:

Quote
What I said is that hitting in the minor leagues is the single best indicator(and I hope I don't need to explain that "best" doesn't mean absolute)

Now, clearly I did need to explain that to you as all of your subsequent posts seemed to entirely misunderstand that very basic premise. Likewise, saying that minor league hitting numbers are the best indicator we have of successful major league hitting does not, repeat does not, conclusively say who should or who shouldn't be in the majors so all of your "examples" are just nonsense.

You are just ignoring what I posted but that's on you.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 16, 2020, 11:58:38 AM

A good read on the depth in the Jays farm system:

https://www.tsn.ca/scott-mitchell-nate-pearson-tops-toronto-blue-jays-top-50-prospects-list-1.1428288 (https://www.tsn.ca/scott-mitchell-nate-pearson-tops-toronto-blue-jays-top-50-prospects-list-1.1428288)
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on January 16, 2020, 09:44:38 PM

A good read on the depth in the Jays farm system:

https://www.tsn.ca/scott-mitchell-nate-pearson-tops-toronto-blue-jays-top-50-prospects-list-1.1428288 (https://www.tsn.ca/scott-mitchell-nate-pearson-tops-toronto-blue-jays-top-50-prospects-list-1.1428288)

Nice to see Kay and Woods Richardson ranked that high.

Here's one on Pearson:

https://www.mlb.com/news/nate-pearson-ready-for-blue-jays-spring-training

If Pearson arrives some time this year and Ryu pitches well, that could be a very strong top 2.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 18, 2020, 11:48:39 AM

I'll gladly criticize Shapiro for this decision. Yuck:

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on January 18, 2020, 06:14:57 PM

Jays have signed Joe Panik to a minor league deal.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on January 22, 2020, 02:42:34 PM
BA released their new top 100.

Pearson 7
Groshans 29
Woods Richardson 61

With Woods Richardson ranked there and Kay appearing to be in the mix for a rotation spot this season, the return on Stroman is looking good.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Frank E on February 12, 2020, 02:52:46 PM
I'm eargerly looking forward to the explanation on this one:

https://www.tsn.ca/blue-jays-reese-mcguire-arrested-for-exposing-himself-1.1441695
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on February 12, 2020, 04:06:25 PM

Fangraphs put out their top prospects list and the Jays have 4 guys in the top 100. Pearson is at #8, Simeon-Richardson at #76, Groshans at #80 and Orelvis Martinez at #89.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: The Empire on February 12, 2020, 09:14:48 PM
I'm eargerly looking forward to the explanation on this one:

https://www.tsn.ca/blue-jays-reese-mcguire-arrested-for-exposing-himself-1.1441695

Coming off a break out year this is not good.  More details here  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7996799/Blue-Jays-investigating-arrest-C-McGuire.html
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2020, 11:21:35 AM
Sounds like a strange situation for the kid, I hope there is some kind of explanation that makes sense but I am not that hopeful. I guess he will be playing for Houston soon.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2020, 05:41:51 PM
The report is he was masterbating in his car watching porn on his phone with no pants on. The police asked him why he was doing this in the parking lot of a strip mall when he lived a few blocks away.  Too bad I thought he was better than Jannsen but looks like he will be done as a Jay. 
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on February 13, 2020, 10:29:10 PM
The report is he was masterbating in his car watching porn on his phone with no pants on. The police asked him why he was doing this in the parking lot of a strip mall when he lived a few blocks away.  Too bad I thought he was better than Jannsen but looks like he will be done as a Jay. 


He’s either a)  Stupid.
                b)   Took something that interfered with his mental clarity.
               *c)    A reckless idiot.

*I’m thinking this one is more like it.

No excuses for him.  If he will be done as a Jay, good riddance.  I’ve lost respect for such a person.  He obviously had brain enough to think but elected to be careless & irresponsible.  And in a public place with females around.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on February 15, 2020, 10:16:58 PM

Sadly, it seems as though Tony Fernandez has passed away.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Zee on February 15, 2020, 10:48:57 PM
Ugh one of my favorite Jays of all time. Sad news. Rest in peace Tony.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on February 16, 2020, 07:16:15 AM
I remember Tony Fernandez.  A beloved Blue Jay.  Rest In Peace.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-icon-tony-fernandez-passes-away-age-57/
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on February 16, 2020, 11:24:56 AM
Tony will always be my favorite Blue Jay,  I loved the guy.  His gangly style at the plate, reminded me of a Praying Mantis, I always called him the "Insect Man" because of it.  In an affectionate way of course. 
Had three friends pass this week all within 24 hours, this feels like the 4th.   Way to young.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on February 16, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Rob Manfred.  Intentionally the worst commissioner in professional sports or just incompetently so?
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Arn on February 18, 2020, 08:55:11 AM
Rob Manfred.  Intentionally the worst commissioner in professional sports or just incompetently so?

It's really interesting to me how so many players are actually speaking out against the Astros and Manfred. It's just not really something you see from baseball players in general. I think this sign stealing thing has a long way to run yet..

Even Mike Trout spoke out!
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on February 19, 2020, 04:18:02 PM
Revisiting the riveting debate on Urena, he was DFA by the Orioles.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on February 22, 2020, 01:57:46 PM

It was probably inevitable but the Jays have decided to black out their games on MLB.tv throughout Canada and have them exclusively on Sportsnet.

It's not something particular to the Jays as I think the MLSE teams are worse for it but it does strike me as particularly damaging to Baseball, a sport that's struggling to bring in young fans, to make streaming their product much more expensive than comparable entertainment options. For the cost of being able to legally stream all MLB games I could get all of Netflix, Spotify, Disney+, AppleTV and XBox Games Pass for roughly the same price.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on February 22, 2020, 02:07:43 PM

It was probably inevitable but the Jays have decided to black out their games on MLB.tv throughout Canada and have them exclusively on Sportsnet.

It's not something particular to the Jays as I think the MLSE teams are worse for it but it does strike me as particularly damaging to Baseball, a sport that's struggling to bring in young fans, to make streaming their product much more expensive than comparable entertainment options. For the cost of being able to legally stream all MLB games I could get all of Netflix, Spotify, Disney+, AppleTV and XBox Games Pass for roughly the same price.
Ya Nik, I don't see any upside in the decision at all. We need to have young viewers and most are affixed to streaming devices.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on February 22, 2020, 02:10:51 PM

It was probably inevitable but the Jays have decided to black out their games on MLB.tv throughout Canada and have them exclusively on Sportsnet.

It's not something particular to the Jays as I think the MLSE teams are worse for it but it does strike me as particularly damaging to Baseball, a sport that's struggling to bring in young fans, to make streaming their product much more expensive than comparable entertainment options. For the cost of being able to legally stream all MLB games I could get all of Netflix, Spotify, Disney+, AppleTV and XBox Games Pass for roughly the same price.

Another problem with this is MLB.tv is a great service and Sportsnet NOW sucks.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on February 22, 2020, 02:11:10 PM

It was probably inevitable but the Jays have decided to black out their games on MLB.tv throughout Canada and have them exclusively on Sportsnet.

It's not something particular to the Jays as I think the MLSE teams are worse for it but it does strike me as particularly damaging to Baseball, a sport that's struggling to bring in young fans, to make streaming their product much more expensive than comparable entertainment options. For the cost of being able to legally stream all MLB games I could get all of Netflix, Spotify, Disney+, AppleTV and XBox Games Pass for roughly the same price.
Ya Nik, I don't see any upside in the decision at all. We need to have young viewers and most are affixed to streaming devices.

Sportsnet NOW is a streaming service, its just bad.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Arn on February 22, 2020, 03:55:26 PM
MLB TV is a phenomenal service. As far as individual sports streaming it is the model any sport (NHL, English premier league football etc) should look to as a template. Luckily over here we aren’t subject to blackouts so if I go for it this year I should still see every game I want to.

But the UK cousin of baseball, cricket, went behind pay TV wall in 2005 and theyve now invented an entirely new version of the game to show it on free to air TV cos the participation (and even awareness in terms of recognition of “star” players etc) numbers have tanked across the whole country. I’d fear something like this could be an unintended result of this short sighted, commercial money grabbing decision.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on February 22, 2020, 04:10:20 PM
Another problem with this is MLB.tv is a great service and Sportsnet NOW sucks.

I'm sure that the commonality is that they're Canadian and thus smaller enterprises but all of the Canadian streaming services, TSN and Sportsnet and Crave, all seem to be generally terrible.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: L K on February 22, 2020, 04:44:54 PM

It was probably inevitable but the Jays have decided to black out their games on MLB.tv throughout Canada and have them exclusively on Sportsnet.

It's not something particular to the Jays as I think the MLSE teams are worse for it but it does strike me as particularly damaging to Baseball, a sport that's struggling to bring in young fans, to make streaming their product much more expensive than comparable entertainment options. For the cost of being able to legally stream all MLB games I could get all of Netflix, Spotify, Disney+, AppleTV and XBox Games Pass for roughly the same price.

I cancelled my subscription to MLB.tv this year.   The Facebook games did it in for me.   I stream the games in my office and I can’t use Facebook there so losing access to games really just kind of ended up being the last straw for me.    Glad I did it because I have zero interest in using a product that doesn’t let me watch my team.   
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Deebo on February 22, 2020, 05:58:40 PM
Another problem with this is MLB.tv is a great service and Sportsnet NOW sucks.

I'm sure that the commonality is that they're Canadian and thus smaller enterprises but all of the Canadian streaming services, TSN and Sportsnet and Crave, all seem to be generally terrible.

You can't even rewind with TSN.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on February 27, 2020, 04:15:34 PM
Another ranking of the Jays' prospects. Fun to see that behind Jansen and McGuire the Jays have a couple of well regarded young catchers in the system who are expected to be in the bigs in the next few years.

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/2020/bluejays (https://www.mlb.com/prospects/2020/bluejays)
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Andy on February 27, 2020, 05:16:41 PM
Another ranking of the Jays' prospects. Fun to see that behind Jansen and McGuire the Jays have a couple of well regarded young catchers in the system who are expected to be in the bigs in the next few years.

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/2020/bluejays (https://www.mlb.com/prospects/2020/bluejays)

Not only that but the return on Stroman (2 top ten prospects) combined with the signing of Ryu is looking pretty nice right now...
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on February 29, 2020, 11:59:44 AM
When you consider we got Giles for Osuna, I think we got a win on that trade, Giles is a beast. And the  Strobro deal, we got a great return.  Sanchez is looking like he was a shooting star and can't seem to find his way back so the return for him, although grim when the trade happened seems to have panned out at par.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 29, 2020, 12:55:40 PM
Another problem with this is MLB.tv is a great service and Sportsnet NOW sucks.

I'm sure that the commonality is that they're Canadian and thus smaller enterprises but all of the Canadian streaming services, TSN and Sportsnet and Crave, all seem to be generally terrible.

I actually like Crave's selection when you package in the HBO portion. The app's though require some serious work.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Nik on February 29, 2020, 01:15:48 PM
I actually like Crave's selection when you package in the HBO portion. The app's though require some serious work.

I was mainly just referring to the apps there. I agree that if you get the version of Crave with the movies and new shows it's a good selection of content but I'm not sure it's good enough to justify being significantly more expensive than Netflix.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: OldTimeHockey on February 29, 2020, 03:27:59 PM
I actually like Crave's selection when you package in the HBO portion. The app's though require some serious work.

I was mainly just referring to the apps there. I agree that if you get the version of Crave with the movies and new shows it's a good selection of content but I'm not sure it's good enough to justify being significantly more expensive than Netflix.

Perhaps. I actually made room for Disney+ by cutting Netflix. Regretting it now. I felt like I wasn't watching Netflix. Then the shows I watched released new seasons.
Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 02, 2020, 02:00:46 PM
I remember those SARS days (*shivers*)...

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: hockeyfan1 on March 02, 2020, 06:38:32 PM
Bautista pitching??  Duh?

Title: Re: Blue Jays Hot Stove Thread
Post by: Highlander on March 02, 2020, 07:21:35 PM
Bautista pitching??  Duh?

Bring him home and sign him up.