Author Topic: Canadiens @ Leafs - Feb. 13th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590  (Read 2371 times)

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Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - Feb. 13th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2021, 03:52:40 PM »

1: The second line isn't producing

2: Their point totals are pretty good

1: It's not about point totals, it's about their play when not scoring!

2: Their underlying possession numbers are pretty good

1: It's not about possession numbers, their point totals aren't spread out enough!

2: Why is it better to have more spread out point totals?

1: THEY'RE NOT PRODUCING. I WATCH THE GAMES AND YOU DON'T! WAHHHHHHHH!

Someone really needs to tell some people that being dumb loudly and repeatedly doesn't make you any less dumb.
I think he's not capable of having any of that sink in.

No I'm not. Guess other posts and other sites a lot must be as dumb as me. Keep living in your fantasy world boys. Maybe you're ok with mediocrity but I'm not.

No worries man. I totally understand the club has been under-performing vs expectations for what seems like forever; so the frustration is understandable; it's just that the team is doing pretty well this year, and a loss here and there is expected, especially with the tight schedule, so cherry picking those doesn't seem appropriate. How about once they lose 5 straight, we'll vent a little. Deal?

I'm not going to lie losses tick me off. Is that the case here no. We are #1 in the league no-one more happy about than me. What I do hate is a lack of effort and some aren't cutting it right now. I don't expect a lot from some of your fringe players because that's what they are. But when you're paid handsomely then I expect a little more. Everyone has an off game but at some point you have to start questioning production.

To change the subject slightly, how do you feel about what the Leafs did in the off-season on D?  To me, they finally got two guys who brought just what we needed in today's league: not a Derrian Hatcher eraser type but mobile guys who can move the puck quickly and efficiently out of the zone, who can play a 2 on 1, who make clever little plays along the boards to initiate a pass, etc.  Brodie and Bogo aren't exactly playing "tough" but they have been tough to play against.  And Holl has emerged as a solid 2nd-pairing guy, which I never thought would happen.  What's your take.

This just my eyeballs talking, I don't know what the advanced stats say about our team defense.  To me, they look much improved and as I said in a post the other day I think the stability on the backend has filtered through to the forwards' D-play too.

Offline berserker

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - Feb. 13th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2021, 04:26:55 PM »

1: The second line isn't producing

2: Their point totals are pretty good

1: It's not about point totals, it's about their play when not scoring!

2: Their underlying possession numbers are pretty good

1: It's not about possession numbers, their point totals aren't spread out enough!

2: Why is it better to have more spread out point totals?

1: THEY'RE NOT PRODUCING. I WATCH THE GAMES AND YOU DON'T! WAHHHHHHHH!

Someone really needs to tell some people that being dumb loudly and repeatedly doesn't make you any less dumb.
I think he's not capable of having any of that sink in.

No I'm not. Guess other posts and other sites a lot must be as dumb as me. Keep living in your fantasy world boys. Maybe you're ok with mediocrity but I'm not.

No worries man. I totally understand the club has been under-performing vs expectations for what seems like forever; so the frustration is understandable; it's just that the team is doing pretty well this year, and a loss here and there is expected, especially with the tight schedule, so cherry picking those doesn't seem appropriate. How about once they lose 5 straight, we'll vent a little. Deal?

I'm not going to lie losses tick me off. Is that the case here no. We are #1 in the league no-one more happy about than me. What I do hate is a lack of effort and some aren't cutting it right now. I don't expect a lot from some of your fringe players because that's what they are. But when you're paid handsomely then I expect a little more. Everyone has an off game but at some point you have to start questioning production.

To change the subject slightly, how do you feel about what the Leafs did in the off-season on D?  To me, they finally got two guys who brought just what we needed in today's league: not a Derrian Hatcher eraser type but mobile guys who can move the puck quickly and efficiently out of the zone, who can play a 2 on 1, who make clever little plays along the boards to initiate a pass, etc.  Brodie and Bogo aren't exactly playing "tough" but they have been tough to play against.  And Holl has emerged as a solid 2nd-pairing guy, which I never thought would happen.  What's your take.

This just my eyeballs talking, I don't know what the advanced stats say about our team defense.  To me, they look much improved and as I said in a post the other day I think the stability on the backend has filtered through to the forwards' D-play too.
Really I swear this isn?t me, though I wish it were

I do have a theory about Willy softness (phrasing).

He has played underage and undersized for pretty much his entire development career, so of course he isn?t going to naturally play the body on puck retrievals or stop ups ? it never worked for him as a 15 year old against 18 year olds, or as a 17 year old in the SEL alongside his dad. What he did do a lot of was zip around the ice with the puck glued to his stick and setting up teammates for tap ins.

In the past two offseasons, Willy has bulked up quite a bit and lost some speed. He has converted it into resilience in receiving physical pressure on the boards to come away with pucks when most players would turn it over. So he won?t necessarily initiate a hit the way Hyman always does and Matthews has started to, but he can definitely shrug off most of what defensemen are trying to do to him when he is carrying it in.
   Very well said

Offline Andy

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - Feb. 13th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2021, 05:33:52 PM »

I'm not going to lie losses tick me off. Is that the case here no. We are #1 in the league no-one more happy about than me. What I do hate is a lack of effort and some aren't cutting it right now. I don't expect a lot from some of your fringe players because that's what they are. But when you're paid handsomely then I expect a little more. Everyone has an off game but at some point you have to start questioning production.

I think that this is a fair argument that doesn't have to be met with biting sarcasm and insults, which oddly seem to be popping up quite a bit on here. Personally for me I feel that it's easy to get lost into what someone makes and looking at point totals (I love Marner, for example, but I also question the seemingly inane amount of turnovers he commits each game and his propensity for shooting directly into shin pads) but I also have to acknowledge that I may have an unrealistic standard based on what I believe to be a very large cap hit for him. As for Nylander, it can be disappointing to see a player with that much skill not show up on the score sheet for multiple games but, again, personally I notice him making multiple unheralded plays, whether it be a back check, forcing a turnover, an effortless 15 foot tape to tape pass or a seamless zone exit/entry. A lot of people have recency and/or confirmation bias and I certainly am not immune to that but I think looking at some of the factors and statistics brought up in the articles mostly posted by Herman can help provide a more rounded analysis.

And speaking of production, I don't think it's irrelevant to mention that the 1st line (Matthews/Marner) each average around 23 minutes per game compared to Nylander's 16. That's almost 50% more ice time for guys that make more than 50% of his salary and who are currently "producing" almost 50% more. So while I definitely agree that it would be nice to see a few more goals/points from that 2nd line I don't see how that production needs to be "questioned." If anything I'm more concerned about the almost complete lack of scoring from anyone outside of the top 6. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 05:39:22 PM by Andy »

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - Feb. 13th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2021, 05:54:58 PM »
Personally for me I feel that it's easy to get lost into what someone makes and looking at point totals (I love Marner, for example, but I also question the seemingly inane amount of turnovers he commits each game and his propensity for shooting directly into shin pads) but I also have to acknowledge that I may have an unrealistic standard based on what I believe to be a very large cap hit for him. As for Nylander, it can be disappointing to see a player with that much skill not show up on the score sheet for multiple games but, again, personally I notice him making multiple unheralded plays, whether it be a back check, forcing a turnover, an effortless 15 foot tape to tape pass or a seamless zone exit/entry. A lot of people have recency and/or confirmation bias and I certainly am not immune to that but I think looking at some of the factors and statistics brought up in the articles mostly posted by Herman can help provide a more rounded analysis.

And speaking of production, I don't think it's irrelevant to mention that the 1st line (Matthews/Marner) each average around 23 minutes per game compared to Nylander's 16. That's almost 50% more ice time for guys that make more than 50% of his salary and who are currently "producing" almost 50% more. So while I definitely agree that it would be nice to see a few more goals/points from that 2nd line I don't see how that production needs to be "questioned." If anything I'm more concerned about the almost complete lack of scoring from anyone outside of the top 6.

Confirmation bias and selective statistics really have a big impact on how someone views a player. High skill players often have giveways because they don't play a simple game. They're trying to create, and that takes risk. Marner doesn't lead the team in points because he's giving the puck away constantly and shooting poorly. Teams have learned that he's trying to get the puck to matthews constantly, so marner has to keep the other team honest by occasionally throwing the puck on net. It's not a big deal, but gets blown out of proportion because as far as most are concerned, Marner shooting at virtually any point and not scoring is a waste of Matthews' talent.

And yeah, Marner gets more minutes, but remember, he plays PK as well. And better players should get more minutes. That's pretty fair, no?


Online OldTimeHockey

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - Feb. 13th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2021, 06:14:43 PM »
Personally for me I feel that it's easy to get lost into what someone makes and looking at point totals (I love Marner, for example, but I also question the seemingly inane amount of turnovers he commits each game and his propensity for shooting directly into shin pads) but I also have to acknowledge that I may have an unrealistic standard based on what I believe to be a very large cap hit for him. As for Nylander, it can be disappointing to see a player with that much skill not show up on the score sheet for multiple games but, again, personally I notice him making multiple unheralded plays, whether it be a back check, forcing a turnover, an effortless 15 foot tape to tape pass or a seamless zone exit/entry. A lot of people have recency and/or confirmation bias and I certainly am not immune to that but I think looking at some of the factors and statistics brought up in the articles mostly posted by Herman can help provide a more rounded analysis.

And speaking of production, I don't think it's irrelevant to mention that the 1st line (Matthews/Marner) each average around 23 minutes per game compared to Nylander's 16. That's almost 50% more ice time for guys that make more than 50% of his salary and who are currently "producing" almost 50% more. So while I definitely agree that it would be nice to see a few more goals/points from that 2nd line I don't see how that production needs to be "questioned." If anything I'm more concerned about the almost complete lack of scoring from anyone outside of the top 6.

Confirmation bias and selective statistics really have a big impact on how someone views a player. High skill players often have giveways because they don't play a simple game. They're trying to create, and that takes risk. Marner doesn't lead the team in points because he's giving the puck away constantly and shooting poorly. Teams have learned that he's trying to get the puck to matthews constantly, so marner has to keep the other team honest by occasionally throwing the puck on net. It's not a big deal, but gets blown out of proportion because as far as most are concerned, Marner shooting at virtually any point and not scoring is a waste of Matthews' talent.

And yeah, Marner gets more minutes, but remember, he plays PK as well. And better players should get more minutes. That's pretty fair, no?

Sheldon Keefe has turned the Leafs into a puck possession team. Rather than give the puck away, they turn back and control the puck. Some times that leads to turnovers. Marner always the puck on his stick. Therefore, more turnovers.