Author Topic: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion  (Read 14752 times)

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Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #300 on: July 28, 2021, 11:50:20 PM »
It often gets said that you shouldn't build your team through free agency, so it was nice to see the Leafs just have to add in depth pieces around the core.  I still think they need a Norris capable d-man, but I don't see how they get that, so they are going to have to roll forward with what they currently have.

When you think about it though, if Tavares, Nylander, Marner and Matthews get rolling in the playoffs, they should be able to go far.  As much as we fans may dislike their depth, those are still 4 players that are hard to match up against if they are firing on all cylinders, and at some point, because they are highly skilled, highly paid, and highly competitive, you would expect that to happen in the playoffs.

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Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #301 on: July 29, 2021, 12:00:34 AM »
Maybe I'm down on the team but I really think this isn't a good lineup.

What does "good lineup" mean? If you're queasy about using the "C" word like ZBBM said, then sure I get it. If you think this is a bottom-10 team or one that shouldn't make the playoffs then I think that's something else.

Like I said, there's still work to be done (and Dubas essentially admitted they're looking to add one more forward) but I think you can make the case this team is at least as good as the one that played at a 112 point pace last season.

Yeah. This is still a good team. Needs some help to become a great one, but that wasn’t going to happen via free agency.

No one really thought the Leafs were going to get “great” via free agency. Are they as good as they were last season? Better? Worse? How’s the degree and direction of change compare to others in their division?

Sure, you can make the case that “this team is at least as good as the one that played at a 112 point pace last season” but I think you can make a better case that this team looks a lot more like the Edmonton Oilers than we thought it would be this many years into the Shanaplan.

Well, the defense is what improved by leaps and bounds last season, and that is what all of us have been begging for since the days of Bill Barilko.

Seriously, this is FINALLY the season where Liljegren and Sandin should be on the blueline.  They'll make their share of mistakes (oh Rasmus my Rasmus I wish I could wave a magic wand over G5 and make your gaffes go poof) but I have reasonable faith that both will turn out to be good defensemen, and Sandin might even become very good. 

So that to me is some pretty clear separation from EDM.

That said, this team is not a lock to make the playoffs, either.

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #302 on: July 29, 2021, 03:12:02 AM »
No team is a lock...injuries can happen to key players to ruin it for a team pretty quick.
Agree with the D. Time to play them.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 03:13:55 AM by Guilt Trip »

Online Arn

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #303 on: July 29, 2021, 05:18:26 AM »
Most of the moves so far probably constitute sideways moves:

Mrazek for Andersen probably would be considered a slight "downgrade" but Mrazek and Campbell as a pair might be better than last year. So slight improvement.

Loss of Bogosian I don't think has been quite covered as yet unless there's a different makeup/style on the D

Obviously up front there's no real direct replacement for Hyman but I think the real difference there can be on the 3rd and 4th line. Bunting for Thornton is probably (sad and hard as it is to admit) an improvement. Moving Kerfoot out of 3rd line centre is also probably an improvement.

I Saw Jay McClement Score.

Offline Michael

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #304 on: July 29, 2021, 08:42:19 AM »
As I was reviewing depth and contract term etc. this morning at Cap Friendly, I was reminded that we have Phil Kessel on the books for 1 more year at $1.2 million - which means that Phil costs more than each of these listed roster players - Wayne Simmonds, Michael Amadio, Jason Spezza, Rasmus Sandin, and Alex Biega.

One more year......

Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #305 on: July 29, 2021, 09:00:53 AM »
As I was reviewing depth and contract term etc. this morning at Cap Friendly, I was reminded that we have Phil Kessel on the books for 1 more year at $1.2 million - which means that Phil costs more than each of these listed roster players - Wayne Simmonds, Michael Amadio, Jason Spezza, Rasmus Sandin, and Alex Biega.

One more year......

The return ended up being pretty solid really but yeah that retention aspect of it sure sucked. Especially since it's dead space you can't move to another team or anything.

Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #306 on: July 29, 2021, 09:15:58 AM »
It often gets said that you shouldn't build your team through free agency, so it was nice to see the Leafs just have to add in depth pieces around the core.  I still think they need a Norris capable d-man, but I don't see how they get that, so they are going to have to roll forward with what they currently have.

When you think about it though, if Tavares, Nylander, Marner and Matthews get rolling in the playoffs, they should be able to go far.  As much as we fans may dislike their depth, those are still 4 players that are hard to match up against if they are firing on all cylinders, and at some point, because they are highly skilled, highly paid, and highly competitive, you would expect that to happen in the playoffs.

38

The thought has crossed my mind that either he or Topi Niemelä could turn into that guy.  It's not out of the realm of possibilities, but it also isn't a lock, so right now that is a hope and a prayer, rather than going out and getting someone who has proven that they can be in the conversation as one of the best defensemen in the league. 
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Offline Deebo

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #307 on: July 29, 2021, 09:22:59 AM »
As I was reviewing depth and contract term etc. this morning at Cap Friendly, I was reminded that we have Phil Kessel on the books for 1 more year at $1.2 million - which means that Phil costs more than each of these listed roster players - Wayne Simmonds, Michael Amadio, Jason Spezza, Rasmus Sandin, and Alex Biega.

One more year......

The return ended up being pretty solid really but yeah that retention aspect of it sure sucked. Especially since it's dead space you can't move to another team or anything.

IIRC, there was a player on the penguins who refused to waive his NTC for that trade and Pittsburgh was the only team on Kessel's list that was willing to trade for him, so retaining was the only way to make it happen.

I think it would have been far worse had they not been able to trade Kessel that summer.

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #308 on: July 29, 2021, 09:39:21 AM »
As I was reviewing depth and contract term etc. this morning at Cap Friendly, I was reminded that we have Phil Kessel on the books for 1 more year at $1.2 million - which means that Phil costs more than each of these listed roster players - Wayne Simmonds, Michael Amadio, Jason Spezza, Rasmus Sandin, and Alex Biega.

One more year......

The return ended up being pretty solid really but yeah that retention aspect of it sure sucked. Especially since it's dead space you can't move to another team or anything.

IIRC, there was a player on the penguins who refused to waive his NTC for that trade and Pittsburgh was the only team on Kessel's list that was willing to trade for him, so retaining was the only way to make it happen.

I think it would have been far worse had they not been able to trade Kessel that summer.
They probably don't finish last and get Matthews.

Offline Frank E

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #309 on: July 29, 2021, 10:23:05 AM »
Thus far:

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Nylander
Kerfoot-Kampf-Mikheyev
Spezza-Engvall-Simmonds
Brooks

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Dermott
Liljegren

Campbell
Mrazek

1.445M under the cap

That's a really questionable left side though.

You're not wrong...and putting a guy with 26 NHL games under his belt on Matthews' wing is a bit of a gamble.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #310 on: July 29, 2021, 10:25:39 AM »
Just throwing it out there but I’m not opposed to Bozak coming back if they can swing one of those league minimum deals for him. Probably not likely though.

Offline herman

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #311 on: July 29, 2021, 10:28:12 AM »
Most of the moves so far probably constitute sideways moves:

Mrazek for Andersen probably would be considered a slight "downgrade" but Mrazek and Campbell as a pair might be better than last year. So slight improvement.

Loss of Bogosian I don't think has been quite covered as yet unless there's a different makeup/style on the D

Obviously up front there's no real direct replacement for Hyman but I think the real difference there can be on the 3rd and 4th line. Bunting for Thornton is probably (sad and hard as it is to admit) an improvement. Moving Kerfoot out of 3rd line centre is also probably an improvement.

Sideways from the team that finished first in the division that came runner up in the Cup final -- that we were a goalpost or two away from being directly involved in? Surprisingly very disappointing for some people.

Not trying to pollyanna this (boo Marner-PP1, coaching deployment overreactions) and this is not directed at you, Arn, but it's like people forget this team still has Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Muzzin, Brodie, Rielly. Teams that have made big changes this offseason so far have largely just tied substantial cap anchors around their necks with middling depth (Buchnevich, Point notwithstanding). There isn't really an outright terrible contract on our cap sheet a la Phaneuf, Marleau, Zaitsev.

Mrazek is probably a downgrade from peak Andersen, but peak Andersen was 3 seasons ago; incidentally we just got the assistant coach that managed the players in front of Mrazek the past couple of seasons.

If Kampf works out as a shutdown 3C (he did effectively it on a defensively inept and moribund CHI team), then that frees up our top 6 to actually do more OZ stuff. Thornton/Kerfoot/broken Riley Nash/Engvall weren't able to do that last season, and also opens up options for either using Kerfoot in the top-6, or trading him/Engvall/Mikheyev to fill the top-6 winger more effectively and shelter Bunting.
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Offline Bender

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #312 on: July 29, 2021, 10:35:11 AM »
Most of the moves so far probably constitute sideways moves:

Mrazek for Andersen probably would be considered a slight "downgrade" but Mrazek and Campbell as a pair might be better than last year. So slight improvement.

Loss of Bogosian I don't think has been quite covered as yet unless there's a different makeup/style on the D

Obviously up front there's no real direct replacement for Hyman but I think the real difference there can be on the 3rd and 4th line. Bunting for Thornton is probably (sad and hard as it is to admit) an improvement. Moving Kerfoot out of 3rd line centre is also probably an improvement.

Sideways from the team that finished first in the division that came runner up in the Cup final -- that we were a goalpost or two away from being directly involved in? Surprisingly very disappointing for some people.

Not trying to pollyanna this (boo Marner-PP1, coaching deployment overreactions) and this is not directed at you, Arn, but it's like people forget this team still has Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Muzzin, Brodie, Rielly. Teams that have made big changes this offseason so far have largely just tied substantial cap anchors around their necks with middling depth (Buchnevich, Point notwithstanding). There isn't really an outright terrible contract on our cap sheet a la Phaneuf, Marleau, Zaitsev.

Mrazek is probably a downgrade from peak Andersen, but peak Andersen was 3 seasons ago; incidentally we just got the assistant coach that managed the players in front of Mrazek the past couple of seasons.

If Kampf works out as a shutdown 3C (he did effectively it on a defensively inept and moribund CHI team), then that frees up our top 6 to actually do more OZ stuff. Thornton/Kerfoot/broken Riley Nash/Engvall weren't able to do that last season, and also opens up options for either using Kerfoot in the top-6, or trading him/Engvall/Mikheyev to fill the top-6 winger more effectively and shelter Bunting.

Right, but can you really blame people after 5 years of what is essentially failure? How do you believe in this team going forward? How does the regular season matter at all, especially after what we've seen this year?
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Offline L K

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #313 on: July 29, 2021, 10:52:27 AM »
As I was reviewing depth and contract term etc. this morning at Cap Friendly, I was reminded that we have Phil Kessel on the books for 1 more year at $1.2 million - which means that Phil costs more than each of these listed roster players - Wayne Simmonds, Michael Amadio, Jason Spezza, Rasmus Sandin, and Alex Biega.

One more year......

The return ended up being pretty solid really but yeah that retention aspect of it sure sucked. Especially since it's dead space you can't move to another team or anything.

IIRC, there was a player on the penguins who refused to waive his NTC for that trade and Pittsburgh was the only team on Kessel's list that was willing to trade for him, so retaining was the only way to make it happen.

I think it would have been far worse had they not been able to trade Kessel that summer.
They probably don't finish last and get Matthews.

I still think the Horachek/Nonis approach to finishing off that season was atrocious.  I don't think it nerfed Kessel's value but having a coach be outright antagonistic toward Kessel and then play the team with a style that completely made his play terrible was not a good strategy.

Offline Deebo

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Re: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #314 on: July 29, 2021, 10:54:50 AM »
Right, but can you really blame people after 5 years of what is essentially failure? How do you believe in this team going forward? How does the regular season matter at all, especially after what we've seen this year?

Calling the first 2, maybe 3 years failures seems harsh to me. The last 2, especially this last one, sure.

Just making the playoffs in the first couple years was exceeding expectations.