Author Topic: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590  (Read 4053 times)

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Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #600 on: June 01, 2021, 11:14:11 AM »
Just going by what's being intimated by people who have the access to know, coaching staff was working within the constraint of certain roles/responsibilities promised to certain players, and those players for whatever reason, didn't live up to their end of the bargain. Like an extreme pendulum swing away from the previous coach (balanced minutes vs stacked, rush vs possession).

Perfectly normal to collaborate with your players (stars, especially) to build something together that they feel invested in, but it needs to come with accountability, and those players have to be willing to let other options onto the table when the situation calls for it. Otherwise you lose the room with the other players that are a) working hard(er) within those confines, and b) putting up the results.

Success is going to come with finding that balance and adapting appropriately to what's happening in front of you. It's very easy to defend against a single strategy, and even easier to throw a wet blanket on one line of super stars with sheer gruntwork. Mix up the short and long plays, trying to solve problems the same way every time with no difference in result is insanity.

If that's the case, hopefully, those players can be approached, and the stance of "We tried it your way and it didn't work" can be taken.
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Offline azzurri63

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #601 on: June 01, 2021, 11:27:53 AM »
Even last year was a toss up to me. Shorter series and CBJ/Toronto were very close in the standings for going on 2 years.

This year was pathetic though IMO.

Yeah, last year I was totally willing to shrug off the loss and say it was a coin flip and could have gone either way. But this year even if the Leafs managed to win game 7 my confidence in them would have just been completely destroyed and I wouldn't have expected them to win another series. Playoffs can always go either way but the Leafs had by far the easiest first round match-up in the league and are arguably the only team to completely blow it (Pittsburgh could be in that category, but at least from what I understand they played great and were just let down by Jarry).

I wouldn't call the Islanders series win much of an upset. Only 6 points behind Pittsburgh in a very tough division. Leafs losing was a lot worse in my opinion.

Offline L K

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #602 on: June 01, 2021, 11:28:21 AM »
Just going by what's being intimated by people who have the access to know, coaching staff was working within the constraint of certain roles/responsibilities promised to certain players, and those players for whatever reason, didn't live up to their end of the bargain. Like an extreme pendulum swing away from the previous coach (balanced minutes vs stacked, rush vs possession).

Perfectly normal to collaborate with your players (stars, especially) to build something together that they feel invested in, but it needs to come with accountability, and those players have to be willing to let other options onto the table when the situation calls for it. Otherwise you lose the room with the other players that are a) working hard(er) within those confines, and b) putting up the results.

Success is going to come with finding that balance and adapting appropriately to what's happening in front of you. It's very easy to defend against a single strategy, and even easier to throw a wet blanket on one line of super stars with sheer gruntwork. Mix up the short and long plays, trying to solve problems the same way every time with no difference in result is insanity.

If that's the case, hopefully, those players can be approached, and the stance of "We tried it your way and it didn't work" can be taken.

I'm torn a little bit.  Last year Marner was 7th in the league in powerplay points/60 minutes  so his opinion on things probably should hold some sway....but the thing was completely broken this year.  I get trying it his way for a while but how much rope do you give to a player when you are 81st in the league (at least 10PP points) in point production.  That's just not good enough when you are the primary puck possession player.

Sins of the father shouldnt' be held against the son but the Paul Marner stuff kind of left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.  I don't like the idea that Mitch is able to dictate how the game gets played...especially if the results aren't there.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 11:31:23 AM by L K »

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #603 on: June 01, 2021, 11:38:13 AM »
Too many plays died on Hyman's stick. It was a big issue. He also wasn't getting the puck. He had 1 takeaway  the whole series. He wasn't good. It's the same thing with the PP..Marner, Rielly aren't a threat to score..Hyman/Joe in front isn't either so let's cheat towards Matthews and we're gold..this isn't rocket science...yes you need a quarterback but everyone has to be a threat to shoot.

But the corollary to that is that, other than the powerplay issues, things worked during the regular season.  During the regular season, Hyman was quite effective on the Matthews line for large chunks of it.  In fact, Hyman was the guy they were moving around to get a line going.  So it's not like he can't do the job 5 on 5 on that type of line.  It's that he couldn't get it done in the playoffs, and other than Nylander, there were a lot of guys who couldn't get it done offensively in the playoffs.
Anybody and everybody worked with M&M during the regular season. It even worked with Thornton. Don't get me wrong here. Hyman works extremely hard but he's not talented enough to be on the top line. He just isn't and this is the second playoffs in a row he's been subpar when up against the tougher defence. Leafs will have to tread lightly when it comes to his salary for next year. I think he's a good player but not at the dollars some were suggesting.

I guess my point is that if the line works during the regular season, then it should work in the playoffs as well.  The playoffs don't require you to suddenly have to have more talent.  I think the big thing that the playoffs require you to have as an athlete is the ability to check your emotions so that the stage doesn't get the better of you.
I see your point, but mine is the Leafs need a third wheel on the top line in the playoffs because it's easier to shut 2 guys down and really one if Marner can't score. If Marner bags one or 2 early on, different scenario. Hyman on the 2nd or 3rd line would have been much better for him and the team.
They were still our best line for producing chances this series. They had chances last night and Hyman had more then a few good looks. He didn't come close to burying one. Does Willy miss all those chances? I like Hyman, I really do, just not there. I think he hurt the line more then helped it and like I said, that's 2 years in a row.

As for the regular season. Hyman had 2 more even strength goals then Mikheyev and Engvall this year and he played more with Matthews/Marner then any other forward so I really don't know how successful he was there. They kept producing even after he was hurt or wasn't with them.

Offline Nik

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #604 on: June 01, 2021, 11:43:05 AM »

In retrospect I think the thing that kind of frustrates me is that despite everything we saw not working, there wasn't much of an effort to shake things up in response.

This seems to be an ongoing issue. In the infamous loss to the Zamboni driver I said the same thing. No matter how many times the Leafs power play got stood up with the same tactic trying to skate into the zone, they never tried anything else.

I don't want to be reductive but I can't help think some of this is on Dubas. I feel like a lot of the Analytic community arrives at what they think is best practices for a given situation and then won't be moved off it, even when it's obvious that the opponent knows it's coming and has game planned for it.
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Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #605 on: June 01, 2021, 11:53:31 AM »

In retrospect I think the thing that kind of frustrates me is that despite everything we saw not working, there wasn't much of an effort to shake things up in response.

This seems to be an ongoing issue. In the infamous loss to the Zamboni driver I said the same thing. No matter how many times the Leafs power play got stood up with the same tactic trying to skate into the zone, they never tried anything else.

I don't want to be reductive but I can't help think some of this is on Dubas. I feel like a lot of the Analytic community arrives at what they think is best practices for a given situation and then won't be moved off it, even when it's obvious that the opponent knows it's coming and has game planned for it.
Don't agree with the Dubas part of it. The PP falls on Keefe ultimately for not changing the personal up. It was in the dumps for 30+ games. At some point you need to change up the persoanl. If the Leafs PP was anything like it was early on, they win the series, easily and would be a threat.

Offline Nik

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #606 on: June 01, 2021, 12:12:03 PM »
Don't agree with the Dubas part of it. The PP falls on Keefe ultimately for not changing the personal up. It was in the dumps for 30+ games.

Dubas is Keefe's boss. If after 20 games of a stagnant PP Dubas isn't in Keefe's ear and getting assurances that they're making changes than blame Keefe all you want, that's still on Dubas.
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Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #607 on: June 01, 2021, 12:16:39 PM »

In retrospect I think the thing that kind of frustrates me is that despite everything we saw not working, there wasn't much of an effort to shake things up in response.

This seems to be an ongoing issue. In the infamous loss to the Zamboni driver I said the same thing. No matter how many times the Leafs power play got stood up with the same tactic trying to skate into the zone, they never tried anything else.

I don't want to be reductive but I can't help think some of this is on Dubas. I feel like a lot of the Analytic community arrives at what they think is best practices for a given situation and then won't be moved off it, even when it's obvious that the opponent knows it's coming and has game planned for it.
Don't agree with the Dubas part of it. The PP falls on Keefe ultimately for not changing the personal up. It was in the dumps for 30+ games. At some point you need to change up the persoanl. If the Leafs PP was anything like it was early on, they win the series, easily and would be a threat.

I think in the Leafs organization though, they talk about these things as a group.  They look at the numbers, and the numbers say that they *should* be scoring, so they don't want to change it up.  The problem is the disconnect between *should* and *is*.  This was my point before the series started, and as things started to go bad for them.  The numbers all say the Leafs should have won.  That's great, but in the end, they didn't, so I am not going to say that the numbers lied because that is not what numbers do, but at some point, if you keep pointing to the numbers and saying "We should have won", but you didn't, then maybe you are looking at the wrong thing.
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Offline herman

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #608 on: June 01, 2021, 12:24:58 PM »
I think in the Leafs organization though, they talk about these things as a group.  They look at the numbers, and the numbers say that they *should* be scoring, so they don't want to change it up.  The problem is the disconnect between *should* and *is*.  This was my point before the series started, and as things started to go bad for them.  The numbers all say the Leafs should have won.  That's great, but in the end, they didn't, so I am not going to say that the numbers lied because that is not what numbers do, but at some point, if you keep pointing to the numbers and saying "We should have won", but you didn't, then maybe you are looking at the wrong thing.

This is a fun point, and coupled with an observation Katya/PPP made that Keefe's offensive possession scheme generally amounts to the worst player on the ice getting most of the shots sort of squares up the good underlying numbers with the utter lack of results in a series.

How often have we bemoaned the Tyson Barrie or Ilya Mikheyev pot shot from downtown? Might need to swing the game a bit more towards shoot more and get the puck more, vs holding it forever. More chaos and less control.
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Offline herman

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #609 on: June 01, 2021, 12:26:09 PM »
If that's the case, hopefully, those players can be approached, and the stance of "We tried it your way and it didn't work" can be taken.

I'm torn a little bit.  Last year Marner was 7th in the league in powerplay points/60 minutes  so his opinion on things probably should hold some sway....but the thing was completely broken this year.  I get trying it his way for a while but how much rope do you give to a player when you are 81st in the league (at least 10PP points) in point production.  That's just not good enough when you are the primary puck possession player.

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Offline azzurri63

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #610 on: June 01, 2021, 12:38:18 PM »

In retrospect I think the thing that kind of frustrates me is that despite everything we saw not working, there wasn't much of an effort to shake things up in response.

This seems to be an ongoing issue. In the infamous loss to the Zamboni driver I said the same thing. No matter how many times the Leafs power play got stood up with the same tactic trying to skate into the zone, they never tried anything else.

I don't want to be reductive but I can't help think some of this is on Dubas. I feel like a lot of the Analytic community arrives at what they think is best practices for a given situation and then won't be moved off it, even when it's obvious that the opponent knows it's coming and has game planned for it.

Going to agree with you here Nik. As much as the coaches are ultimately making decisions etc on the PP at some point Dubas needs to come in and say enough is enough. The PP was dreadful for a long time but the most concerning and puzzling thing was the lack of change. Mind boggling to say the least. I lay blame on the entire management team for letting it continue for as long as it did. Hell they could've made some changes on the PP with no results but at least do something. Only switch was Sandin maybe for Reilly but that wasn't enough in my opinion and Keefe's love for Thornton on the PP was unacceptable.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #611 on: June 01, 2021, 12:48:38 PM »
These last few posts remind me of another criticism of Keefe + coaches (and  ultimately Dubas) I've been mulling.  They have built a puck possession team that had a really good regular season, with fairly remarkable consistency (only a couple of slumps).  Great.  But these guys know that "playoff hockey" means a different set of rules that privilege lower-skilled teams.  Montreal was allowed to interfere virtually at will the entire series, thoroughly disrupting our puck movement and zone entries and hence really limiting the extended OZ time that is key to our success.  The ludicrous non-call on the tackle last night being just an in-your-face example.

Should this be the way it is?  Of course not, but that IS the way it is.  Keefe/Dubas should have seen this a mile off and figured out some alternative attack options (maybe more loft-and-fetch plays?).  Otherwise we are left seeing what we saw: trying to out-grind the other team and hope our goalie doesn't let in backbreakers like G1 last night.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is the only or even main reason we lost.  I think our core group has not yet developed that mysterious psychological state of mind required to put teams away when you have them down: the killer instinct, even though I don't like that phrase.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 12:50:10 PM by Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate »

Offline Highlander

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #612 on: June 01, 2021, 01:06:17 PM »
Well, we didn't sign in to be Leaf fans, we are born into it.  So the love hate will continue until we do have something to cheer about. Its been a weird, strange time to say the least. We need to get back to our proper division, with fans in the stands and regain some normalicy of life.
I thought the Foligno deal was an overpay at the time but also thought he might have been an  X factor in the playoffs.  Turns out that Hall may have been a better pick up for less expenditure, cause at this time looks like we pitched away a 1st round pick.  Wonder how many we could get back for Mitch?  Kidding, it won't happen.
Strange when the leading point man in the league, McDavid and the leading scorer in the NHL, Matthews get held to next to nothing in the playoffs.

Guess I will sip on some cold brews and watch the Jays and keep an eye on TFC.
See ya next year.
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Offline Frank E

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #613 on: June 01, 2021, 01:57:12 PM »
My short take is that apart from Nylander, Spezza, and Kerfoot, they pretty much sucked.

I couldn't even watch the last 10 minutes.  I'm really disappointed, but I really don't know how they fix this given the cap problems they've got.

I would support a head coaching change to someone that demands a little more accountability (the PP), but then again, Keefe didn't have much depth to change out players.  As for Dubas, I think he's going to be forced to make some difficult decisions here if he wants to keep his job...this 1st round exit is a trend.

Like Nik said, you need guys outperforming their contracts, and the Leafs just didn't have enough of those guys this playoffs. 


Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590
« Reply #614 on: June 04, 2021, 09:04:17 PM »
Kid had a tough year but did well when he played. Hope he makes the big club next year and forces his way up the lineup