Sources say contract talks between the St Louis Blues and Blues captain, Alex Pietrangelo have broken off. The team has advised Pietrangelo to pursue unrestricted free agency.
— Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) September 18, 2020
Sources say contract talks between the St Louis Blues and Blues captain, Alex Pietrangelo have broken off. The team has advised Pietrangelo to pursue unrestricted free agency.
— Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) September 18, 2020
There?s so much time left. What did they say to each other?
The Blues’ current offer is $7.7 million AAV, but Pietrangelo has been asked to accept the AAV without knowing the structure of the deal. #stlblues
— Jeremy Rutherford (@jprutherford) September 18, 2020
Darren Dreger on TSN1050 said he thinks Toronto and Las Vegas would be near the top of Alex Pietrangelo's list of preferred destinations if he does not re-sign with the Blues
— Editor in J (@Account4hockey) September 15, 2020
We just got a server alert telling us that traffic to our #Leafs page sky rocketed 🤔🤷🏻♂️ https://t.co/UORSnB7dr8
— CapFriendly (@CapFriendly) September 18, 2020
The Blues’ current offer is $7.7 million AAV, but Pietrangelo has been asked to accept the AAV without knowing the structure of the deal. #stlblues
— Jeremy Rutherford (@jprutherford) September 18, 2020
I just hung up with Blues captain Alex Pietrangelo. He believes he’s headed to the market, but he has not ruled out a deal with the Blues. @DarrenDreger reported that sources tell him that talks have broken off and the Blues have told Pietrangelo to pursue free agency. #stlblues
— Jeremy Rutherford (@jprutherford) September 18, 2020
I don't have a clue how we could get the cap space to do this, and I'm not even sure if a 7-year, $8mil contract is a smart move long-term... but I still wanna see it.Nylander goes for picks/prospects? Or do you dump Johnsson and say Kerfoot? I would def trade Freddie for Kuemper..its a 500k savings for us and 2.5 mill in actual money for the Yotes. I'm not sure about getting AP for 7 years tho. Yes he's good now but when does he drop off? Maybe he doesn't. Man I'd love to get a D man of this calibre. Just look at what Hedman does for TBay. He's a beast. Rielly and AP would be an awesome pairing.
The numbers being tossed around for Pietrangelo are significantly higher than what’s being reported. Told an offer was made as recent as last night. To assume the #stlblues are disrespecting Petro is probably unfair. STL remain hopeful he stays a Blue.
— Andy Strickland (@andystrickland) September 19, 2020
Sources say contract talks between the St Louis Blues and Blues captain, Alex Pietrangelo have broken off. The team has advised Pietrangelo to pursue unrestricted free agency.
— Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) September 18, 2020
There?s so much time left. What did they say to each other?The Blues’ current offer is $7.7 million AAV, but Pietrangelo has been asked to accept the AAV without knowing the structure of the deal. #stlblues
— Jeremy Rutherford (@jprutherford) September 18, 2020
For once its not us!The numbers being tossed around for Pietrangelo are significantly higher than what’s being reported. Told an offer was made as recent as last night. To assume the #stlblues are disrespecting Petro is probably unfair. STL remain hopeful he stays a Blue.
— Andy Strickland (@andystrickland) September 19, 2020
Watching each side of this picking which reporters to leak their version of these negotiations to is fun.
Hearing Pietrangelo camp had come in as high as $9.25 mill, just above the contract of #Preds Dman Roman Josi of $9.059 AAV. Josi also has $34 million in signing bonuses built into the first four years of his deal. #stlblues
— Andy Strickland (@andystrickland) September 19, 2020
?There was a discussion today, and I guess the best way to sum it up, we haven?t really made much progress,? Pietrangelo said in an exclusive interview. ?We just think right now, with where things are at, that maybe it?s best for both sides to see what?s going on in free agency, what the team can explore, what I can explore and if there are better fits for each side.
?We?re a little disappointed that we?re in this situation. We weren?t able to hammer out the details what we wanted in a deal. There was some work that we tried to get done that we couldn?t get done, so both sides agreed that maybe it?s in the best interest. We?re two weeks away. Not saying anything can?t change, but as of right now, that?s kind of our plan, and we?ll see where things go.?
This seems impossible. They can?t ask someone to sign a contract without showing them the contract. And anyway, the player would just assume it is the worst possible contract for them at that AAV. It can?t possibly be true.
That def sounds like like a possibilty. So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?This seems impossible. They can?t ask someone to sign a contract without showing them the contract. And anyway, the player would just assume it is the worst possible contract for them at that AAV. It can?t possibly be true.
They couldn't have asked him to sign, but maybe they wanted him to agree to a deal in principle so that way they'd know exactly how much cap space they'd need to start clearing.
They couldn't have asked him to sign, but maybe they wanted him to agree to a deal in principle so that way they'd know exactly how much cap space they'd need to start clearing.
So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?
It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?
Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?
Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
No disagreeing with you at all. This is what makes it so intriguing. And yes AP will be 31 in Jan but will his game fall off the cliff? Duncan Keith is 37 and can still play. Giordano is up there. I mean can we get 5 good years out of him on a front loaded, cough cough, signing bonuses, and then potentially trade him down the road for a to team that wants cap hit, not actual salary? Get the popcorn out.It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?
Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
Yeah, but you're getting a #1D who will likely begin a decline, while giving up a very young forward who will likely maintain or improve. I know they're in win-now mode, but they're painting themselves into massive corner. Any injuries to key players, and they're sunk with no depth to backfill.
If they could move Nylander for a young defenceman for which they could get more or less equivalent value, that would be something I'd investigate, but I doubt they'd end up with significant cap savings to fit pieterangelo on top of that. I dunno. I can see the appeal, don't get me wrong, but you'll have 20M in Tavares and Pieteranglo in a few years that can't be moved (assuming an NTC) of which you'll likely lament the situation.
No disagreeing with you at all. This is what makes it so intriguing. And yes AP will be 31 in Jan but will his game fall off the cliff? Duncan Keith is 37 and can still play. Giordano is up there. I mean can we get 5 good years out of him on a front loaded, cough cough, signing bonuses, and then potentially trade him down the road for a to team that wants cap hit, not actual salary? Get the popcorn out.It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?
Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
Yeah, but you're getting a #1D who will likely begin a decline, while giving up a very young forward who will likely maintain or improve. I know they're in win-now mode, but they're painting themselves into massive corner. Any injuries to key players, and they're sunk with no depth to backfill.
If they could move Nylander for a young defenceman for which they could get more or less equivalent value, that would be something I'd investigate, but I doubt they'd end up with significant cap savings to fit pieterangelo on top of that. I dunno. I can see the appeal, don't get me wrong, but you'll have 20M in Tavares and Pieteranglo in a few years that can't be moved (assuming an NTC) of which you'll likely lament the situation.
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?
Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes. Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.
So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)? I'm all in.
There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.
I think the big determine factor for me would be what return you get for the guy we send out. If we are getting pennies on the dollar on the trade I don?t think it is worth it. If we get fair value for say Nylander then that could be a good piece coming back plus some prospect depth. I mean if we get a second good defenseman to add to Pietrangelo that does become very enticing
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?
Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes. Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.
So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)? I'm all in.
There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.
I'd make that move. And it really pains me to say that; Nylander is frigging awesome. I'd imagine you'd get a pretty good return for Nylander though.
When's the last time the Leafs have had a defenseman of Pietrangelo's caliber?
Salming was the Leafs best ever D man. Loved watching him play.I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?
Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes. Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.
So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)? I'm all in.
There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.
I'd make that move. And it really pains me to say that; Nylander is frigging awesome. I'd imagine you'd get a pretty good return for Nylander though.
When's the last time the Leafs have had a defenseman of Pietrangelo's caliber?
Leetch, I guess, though he was 35 when they got him. If you mean in his prime, probably Salming. I should add that AP is not as good as either Salming or Leetch in their prime.
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?
Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes. Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.
So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)? I'm all in.
There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.
Lord I agree, if we had two Salming's on our blue line this coming year, then plan the parade. Too bad they broke the mold with him.They certainly did. Unbelievable player and tough. The crap he had to put up with. My favourite player ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_71KMpMP8qA
Smart GMs don?t sign 30 year olds to long term deals. Some idiot probably will but I sure hope it?s not the leafs
They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.Smart GMs don?t sign 30 year olds to long term deals. Some idiot probably will but I sure hope it?s not the leafs
Boston signed Chara long term at 29 years old. Worked out for them.
Scott Niedermayer signed in Anaheim at 32 and took him to 36. That worked out pretty good too.
I'd say elite guys kinda change the equation.
Lord I agree, if we had two Salming's on our blue line this coming year, then plan the parade. Too bad they broke the mold with him.I, too, would like two Hall of Fame defensemen on the blueline.
I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.In a deal like this you can't worry about year 6 or 7. Robidas Island if he falls of the cliff. Also Matthews is here for 4 more minimum, Marner 5, Nylander 4 and JT 5. Sign him and take action at it for the next 4 or 5 years.
I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
See, I think a smart GM worries about every year of the deal. Obviously it's hard to predict what shape the team/league will be in 6 or 7 year, but ideally you want to build a team that's competitive year in and year out. Look at Dallas this year, it's usually just a matter of a good team with a little bit of puck luck.I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.In a deal like this you can't worry about year 6 or 7. Robidas Island if he falls of the cliff. Also Matthews is here for 4 more minimum, Marner 5, Nylander 4 and JT 5. Sign him and take action at it for the next 4 or 5 years.
I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
I’m shocked at how uninformed this take is-
— Allan Walsh (@walsha) September 20, 2020
1. Players in Canada can set up a Retirement Compensation Agreement (RCA) and limit their tax liability to a flat 20%. With sound tax advisors, a NHL player can actually pay the same or less tax in Canada than he will Florida or Vegas. https://t.co/u9A7SEFbAo
I will guarantee you there are very few GMs thinking 7 years down the road. They don't produce and they're gone long before that. Dubas will worry about it then. Right now, not a chance. The cap should be way up by then anyway. Dubas' main thought now is how can I fit him in with/without dumping Nylander and every other scenario to fit AP in without killing the front line talent. It can be done if he gets rid of Johnsson and Kerfoot and signs a few UFA's on the cheap. It's going to be interesting if AP gets to the market. Teams will be lining up.See, I think a smart GM worries about every year of the deal. Obviously it's hard to predict what shape the team/league will be in 6 or 7 year, but ideally you want to build a team that's competitive year in and year out. Look at Dallas this year, it's usually just a matter of a good team with a little bit of puck luck.I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.In a deal like this you can't worry about year 6 or 7. Robidas Island if he falls of the cliff. Also Matthews is here for 4 more minimum, Marner 5, Nylander 4 and JT 5. Sign him and take action at it for the next 4 or 5 years.
I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
I?d be curious to know what we could get back if we tried to trade Marner. I?d probably look for a Nazem Kadri-level center for the 3rd line as the biggest piece back, perhaps a scoring winger prospect who might be ready to take the leap, and a badish contract for a third/fourth liner or 6th D to even out the money a little. 11 million out in cap hit, and 2-3 players for ~7-8 million back in. I?d be hoping Tavares could elevate our 2nd line players to 1st line performance as he has in the past. And our defense would be improved with Pietrangelo.You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
Not sure if there?s a team out there that would want to make that kind of deal.
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
I don't think either will go if they get AP. I think Kerfoot and Johnsson will be moved instead.You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Possibly but man thats gonna be horrid forward depth.I don't think either will go if they get AP. I think Kerfoot and Johnsson will be moved instead.You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
Yeah, never a Norris finalist, 2 top 5 Norris finishes, 1 additional top 10...That's not a bad resume by any means and I don't really want to argue what "elite" means but, you know, he's a legit top pairing guy but probably not top 10 or anything.
I?d be curious to know what we could get back if we tried to trade Marner. I?d probably look for a Nazem Kadri-level center for the 3rd line as the biggest piece back, perhaps a scoring winger prospect who might be ready to take the leap, and a badish contract for a third/fourth liner or 6th D to even out the money a little. 11 million out in cap hit, and 2-3 players for ~7-8 million back in. I?d be hoping Tavares could elevate our 2nd line players to 1st line performance as he has in the past. And our defense would be improved with Pietrangelo.
Not sure if there?s a team out there that would want to make that kind of deal.
They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.
And that's the issue. How much do you weaken the forward crew?Possibly but man thats gonna be horrid forward depth.I don't think either will go if they get AP. I think Kerfoot and Johnsson will be moved instead.You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.
The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
He's a true first pairing guy but I think I mislabelled him as elite. I don't think he's in Hedman's category but not far off.They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.
Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
He's a true first pairing guy but I think I mislabelled him as elite. I don't think he's in Hedman's category but not far off.They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.
Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.
Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
Nobody. Who is considered elite these days? We don't get to see enough of these other guys for oursleves and have to base it off what we mostly read and see in highlights. There are a lot of really good D men that I don't consider elite. I don't think AP gets consideration for the Norris because he doesn't put up the points that the others do. He's a 40 to mid 50 point D man, not that it's a bad thing.He's a true first pairing guy but I think I mislabelled him as elite. I don't think he's in Hedman's category but not far off.They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.
He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.
Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
Is anyone currently in Hedman's category?
Pietrangelo is better than any defenseman they currently have. Nik said no top 10 or anything, but I'm not so sure.
I don't think AP gets consideration for the Norris because he doesn't put up the points that the others do. He's a 40 to mid 50 point D man, not that it's a bad thing.
Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?I don't think AP gets consideration for the Norris because he doesn't put up the points that the others do. He's a 40 to mid 50 point D man, not that it's a bad thing.
Just as a point of comparison, between 2012-2013 and 17-18, Pietrangelo had season point totals of 42(pro-rated), 51, 46, 37, 48 and 54 points. That's an average of 46 points a year. His Norris finishes over that time are 14th, 5th, 22nd, no votes, 16th and 9th.
By comparison, in the same stretch, Drew Doughty had seasons of 38(again, pro-rated), 37, 46, 51, 44 and 60. That is also an average of 46 points a year. Doughty's Norris finishes were 9th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 7th, 2nd.
So it's not just a points thing.
Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?
Thx. I was thinking the same thing in regards to team success and reputation is also a great point.Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?
Absolutely. And there's also a hefty chunk of it just being a reputation thing where because Doughty established himself as a Norris contender so early on he's stuck there with some voters whether it's deserved or not.
I'm not saying Norris voting is the be-all and end-all, it has faults and biases. I just think it's a useful tool considering, as has been said, none of us can really judge other team's defensemen without watching them a lot.
Speaking of Doughty, if LA was willing to retain a large amount of his contract is he somebody worth considering or has he fallen off too much?Thx. I was thinking the same thing in regards to team success and reputation is also a great point.Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?
Absolutely. And there's also a hefty chunk of it just being a reputation thing where because Doughty established himself as a Norris contender so early on he's stuck there with some voters whether it's deserved or not.
I'm not saying Norris voting is the be-all and end-all, it has faults and biases. I just think it's a useful tool considering, as has been said, none of us can really judge other team's defensemen without watching them a lot.
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.
Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
I heard today the Blues offered 8x8 but won't front load the contract with signing bonuses etc. Strickland said he could potentially leave for less money. He wants the money more upfront like others have. Says he feels disrespected by the Blues. I'm on the fence here. One hand I'd love to get him but I know it will cost Kerfoot/Johnsson minimum. Do we have enough in the system or could we get cheaper replacements? Maybe we go with 11F/7D next year? It's not like Johnsson and Kerfoot lit the world on fire. I think Johnsson had a terrible year especially for a guy that saw a lot of pp time so I'm not worried about him going. Kerfoot is the intriguing guy. Can he become that 3rd line centre? Can Engvall take a big leap forward? He only had 1 less goal then Kerfoot. Can we sign Rodrigues on the cheap? Is Spezza/Thornton/Koivu an option? Is Hallander close? Maybe Willy goes to 3rd centre here and there? At worst you're going to have Mikheyev/Robertson and Barabanov as 3rd line wingers. So many what ifs. I'd love to get Dubas', Keefe's and Shanny's thoughts.He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.
Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
Hedman
Carlson
Josi
Burns (though, he's declining some, and is also a bit of an anomaly, as his best years came later in his career)
Those are the only guys in the league I'd consider to be elite guys year after year right now. There's a few others on the fringes who could get there with a few more really good years - like Jones, Makar, Hughes, maybe Chabot - and others that have dropped off in the last season or two - Doughty, Karlsson, etc. - but those 4 are the only ones I'd think of as the truly upper echelon in the league today.
Pietrangelo is the best blueliner the Leafs have a shot at acquiring (that we know of), sure, but, I really question whether he adds enough to make up for the subtractions required for him to fit under the cap. Bringing him in at the cap number he's likely to sign for not only means taking pieces away from the roster, it also limits the team's ability to improve in other important areas.
I've flip-flopped about this a lot. On the one hand it'd just be fun to see how Dubas could fit him in, and it'd be amazing to watch Rielly play alongside an actual legitimate top pairing defenceman for the first time in his career (assuming he isn't the cap causality). But man there's just a ton of risk involved here too. There's a lot of defencemen in or around their 30s who aren't living up to their massive contracts right now (Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, Burns, OEL). And aside from OEL probably Pietrangelo never quite reached the highs of those players. If we sign him we really can't afford any drop in his play/on-ice value.
Maybe the biggest worry for me too is the majority of his contract would fall in a time where the cap is mostly stagnant. If we were still seeing cap growth of $2-4mil per year this would be a different story. Instead we could see little-to-no growth for the next 4 seasons. And it's likely not going to explode after that.
You good at $8 X 7?
That would get me leaning more to the yes side of things. Who knows, maybe he takes less to come home, like JT?I've flip-flopped about this a lot. On the one hand it'd just be fun to see how Dubas could fit him in, and it'd be amazing to watch Rielly play alongside an actual legitimate top pairing defenceman for the first time in his career (assuming he isn't the cap causality). But man there's just a ton of risk involved here too. There's a lot of defencemen in or around their 30s who aren't living up to their massive contracts right now (Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, Burns, OEL). And aside from OEL probably Pietrangelo never quite reached the highs of those players. If we sign him we really can't afford any drop in his play/on-ice value.
Maybe the biggest worry for me too is the majority of his contract would fall in a time where the cap is mostly stagnant. If we were still seeing cap growth of $2-4mil per year this would be a different story. Instead we could see little-to-no growth for the next 4 seasons. And it's likely not going to explode after that.
You good at $8 X 7?
Stop making sense! Some very valid points. Of course this is all a moot point if someone opens the purse and overpays or he just signs back with St Louis.You good at $8 X 7?
For a team that needs a defenceman like Pietrangelo, doesn't already have multiple massive contracts on their books, that has the cap space to fit him in, and operates in a world where the cap is rising every single year that's probably a very fair UFA contract for a player of his caliber.
We only tick one of those four boxes. So I just don't think it's as simple as saying "yes of course we should sign him he's the best defenceman available".
Would I be good with that contract if it meant selling Nylander for less than he's worth to create the cap space, thereby leaving Marner as the only top-6 winger on the team? I'm not sure.
Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Rielly after an off-year, which would balance out our L-D defence a little more evenly but still leave our defence very top heavy? I'm not sure.
Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Andersen and only being able to replace him with a $2mil type goalie? I'm not sure.
Would I be good with that contract if it meant having to trade Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall and completely destroying our forward depth? Again, not sure.
So signing Pietrangelo might finally solve that massive hole we've had on our right defence but it's also bound to create a massive hole somewhere else on the team. And again a flat cap means that it's not just this season that casualties will have to be made. If Rielly isn't the one who gets traded he's basically 100% gone after his deal is up. It could mean we never really have the available cap space to have a $5mil type goalie again. It could mean our depth continues to get worse later in his contract once guys like Hyman, Mikheyev, and Robertson need new contracts.
Chara was similarly aged dominant two-way Dman when he signed with Bruins in '06.
— Sam Tirpák (@SammyT_51) September 21, 2020
Signed to 17.05% of cap hit, which would translate to roughly 13.9 million dolars today. You can get Pietrangelo for 60-65% of that, you do it all day.
And you get similarly important piece. https://t.co/wHYTidYvqs
You good at $8 X 7?
For a team that needs a defenceman like Pietrangelo, doesn't already have multiple massive contracts on their books, that has the cap space to fit him in, and operates in a world where the cap is rising every single year that's probably a very fair UFA contract for a player of his caliber.
We only tick one of those four boxes. So I just don't think it's as simple as saying "yes of course we should sign him he's the best defenceman available".
Would I be good with that contract if it meant selling Nylander for less than he's worth to create the cap space, thereby leaving Marner as the only top-6 winger on the team? I'm not sure.
Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Rielly after an off-year, which would balance out our L-D defence a little more evenly but still leave our defence very top heavy? I'm not sure.
Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Andersen and only being able to replace him with a $2mil type goalie? I'm not sure.
Would I be good with that contract if it meant having to trade Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall and completely destroying our forward depth? Again, not sure.
So signing Pietrangelo might finally solve that massive hole we've had on our right defence but it's also bound to create a massive hole somewhere else on the team. And again a flat cap means that it's not just this season that casualties will have to be made. If Rielly isn't the one who gets traded he's basically 100% gone after his deal is up. It could mean we never really have the available cap space to have a $5mil type goalie again. It could mean our depth continues to get worse later in his contract once guys like Hyman, Mikheyev, and Robertson need new contracts.
These are basically problems with our roster without Pietrangelo.
If the cap stays flat for 2 years for sure and maybe as far as 4 years. Unless we have a drastic change in how teams get cap relief with a stagnant revenue stream the Leafs aren't going to have the money to re-sign guys like Hyman or sign a 5 million dollar defenseman because we don't have the cap space to sign those guys now. Obviously our 3rd/4th line are going to have to be populated by rookies and cheap veterans but that is going to be incredibly hit or miss year over year.
It's not Dubas' fault that the league has a hard cap and COVID hit but the Leafs are going to be hard pressed to have reliable depth even without Pietrangelo.
How close is Pietrangelo now to Zdeno Chara back in 2005-6?
Close-ish but Chara was a little younger and coming off seasons where he was a 1st and then a 2nd team all-star. Chara absolutely was in that upper echelon of defensemen when he signed.
Close-ish but Chara was a little younger and coming off seasons where he was a 1st and then a 2nd team all-star. Chara absolutely was in that upper echelon of defensemen when he signed.
Yeah. Chara was unquestioningly one of the top 3 defencemen in the league when he signed with the Bruins. Pietrangelo is not that.
A better analog would be Zubov - a very good RHD, who had a couple seasons among the top handful in the league at his position, but was generally considered to be a tier below the elite guys (granted, the comparison is not helpful for UFA signing value, just for general value around the league).
Chara rightfully then got 17.05% of the cap (7.5M over 5 years). I don't think Pietrangelo is asking for more than McDavid. He's looking at just north of 10%. Stanley Cup captain vs All Star accolades?
Chara rightfully then got 17.05% of the cap (7.5M over 5 years). I don't think Pietrangelo is asking for more than McDavid. He's looking at just north of 10%. Stanley Cup captain vs All Star accolades?
Looking at deals as %'s of cap can be useful when trying to measure guys in different years but you can't forget the real dollars involved. The cap growing hasn't typically meant that individual salaries have grown to keep pace and no matter what the cap was in 2006, Chara wasn't getting offered 13 million.
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
I have to be honest, I'm still really unsure of the math here. Isn't any serious pursuit of Pietrangelo dependent not only on the Leafs dealing Marner or Nylander but also on getting effectively nothing back for them in terms of salary? So the idea that the signing would be a net gain of any considerable measure is predicated on what...getting a high contributing piece back still on their rookie deal?
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...
Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033
Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167
Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k
plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:
Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4
Then they're both UFA. Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.
If AP gets hurt we go back to last year's D core. We did run for a period last year with Rielly, Muzz and CC out. Injuries happen. We also don't know how good Lehtonen is He could surprise. As for the forwards. I think the weak spot is 3rd line centre but I think the wingers are fine.Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...
Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033
Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167
Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k
plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
If you shoehorn Pieterangelo in without moving the big 4 aren't you essentially forced to let Reilly and Hyman walk at the end of their deals?Hyman would have to accept a similar deal or he'd be gone unless the Leafs go with a cheaper goalie. Freddie and his 5 mill are off the books after next season. Maybe Scott or Woll will be ready? Who knows? You also gain 1.2 mill in cap space when Rielly is up as Kessel comes off the books.
Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
Last years core? We did have Ceci and Barrie also. As much as I didn't like them they're still better depth than what we'd have with AP injured...If AP gets hurt we go back to last year's D core. We did run for a period last year with Rielly, Muzz and CC out. Injuries happen. We also don't know how good Lehtonen is He could surprise. As for the forwards. I think the weak spot is 3rd line centre but I think the wingers are fine.Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...
Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033
Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167
Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k
plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
Johnsson was bad last year. He was on a 40 point pace while getting the 7th most PP time. Kerfoot was worse. Mikheyev was way ahead of both in points per 60(without PP time) and Even points per 60.
Anyway, I was just goofing around to see if AP could fit in. I'm sure they might be able to find a 3rd line centre, possibly a vet that would sign for a low hit. Could Thornton be that guy? Koivu? I don't know, I haven't really thought much about who could play there.
I'm totally on the Gudas & Brodie/De Melo train and seeing if you can manoever after that. Also what people forget is you can still make a decent deal at the deadline if we've accrued enough space.Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Last years core? We did have Ceci and Barrie also. As much as I didn't like them they're still better depth than what we'd have with AP injured...Our core as it stands now is Muzzin, Rielly, Holl and Sandin, Lehtonen, Liljegren, Rosen, Marincin. Lehtonen is the wild card here even if they sign Dermott to a reasonable hit.
I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence?
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.
Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.
Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.
The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.
One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:
Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4
Then they're both UFA. Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.
Low total dollars relative to the whole on Marner's deal, but which owner is going to sign off on dropping ~10M and then 7Mx4 in signing bonuses with COVID finances that are so cash strapped they're cutting ops and running an internal cap ON TOP of the trade capital that the Leafs would capitulate on (cost-controlled young defenseman like Heiskanen or top 5OA picks + additional cost-controlled youth?)?
They're both staying.
The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.
The Leafs don't have 2 first round picks, unless you're assuming one would be returning in the supposed Nylander trade, but even then I still wouldn't be looking to draft defensemen. Being realistic about time frames means that any defenseman drafted is still likely 3-4 years away from being a solid contributor or, effectively, not until the next iteration of the team.
Because of where the team is looking for solid forward prospects with a realistic chance to contribute in the next couple of years is probably their best chance to improve the current team in a meaningful way.
Also, with the cap situation the way it is, I'd probably hold off on assuming that teams will just be lining up to throw awesome trade packages at the Leafs for Nylander
But we can't afford to lose Nylander's offence because we have no one to replace it. We can potentially get away with losing Kerfoot's and Johnsson's though. The key is to create space and not destroy your forward group and get some futures back via picks/prospect. Heck maybe a cheap 3rd line plugger. Nylander is too good to give up on right now.I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum, but that?s it.
It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.
The return is just not going to be as pronounced unless you offer up a real offensive talent like Nylander. Sure you could get lucky with some decent picks for those two, but your chances of drafting a really good defenseman diminish by leaps and bounds.
I think some see Kappy getting a first should mean Nylander would bring more.
I kind of feel like the people advocating for trading Marner and Nylander need to be slightly more specific with their thoughts on what the returns would actually be(and from who) because it seems like a lot of the value being espoused there is pretty hard to pin down.
Like, I like Nylander a lot but I don't think he's a good enough player that teams in need of a franchise type player would eagerly give away their shots at one.
Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.
And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.
I think some see Kappy getting a first should mean Nylander would bring more.
Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.
I don't see any reason why the team would implode but even then I don't think this is about a "now vs. later" schism. I think it's about being somewhat patient with the prospects we do have and looking to bolster other areas of the prospect base. The Leafs prospect base right now is sort of unquestionably strongest on defense with Liljegren and Sandin clearly outshining any of the guys the Leafs have in the forward ranks.
So when I look a couple years down the line the improvement on defense I see is from those guys(and, hopefully, Dermott/Rielly as they continue to grow). I look at the Leafs' system right now, however, and I don't see a ton of good candidates for filling out the bottom six.And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.
I don't necessarily disagree(although I guess it depends on what you mean by "high end") but I don't think that would be a good value return.
I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.
I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.
Ok but I'm not sure that fundamentally changes the dynamic. If that happens, the Leafs will still have Liljegren and Sandin and not much prospect depth anywhere else.
I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMOYes but that doesn't mean you need to weaken your forward core. You're trading away a 24 year old 30 goal scorer that's locked up for 4 more years at a great rate. You don't trade a player like that for picks unless he isn't signed, or under performs. You can strengthen your D by other less destructive ways. You may not get the same return, but you do less damage to the current group.
I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMOYes but that doesn't mean you need to weaken your forward core. You're trading away a 24 year old 30 goal scorer that's locked up for 4 more years at a great rate. You don't trade a player like that for picks unless he isn't signed, or under performs. You can strengthen your D by other less destructive ways. You may not get the same return, but you do less damage to the current group.
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.
Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.
Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.
Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.
Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.
Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?
NJ at #7 could use Nylander.
Anaheim?
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.
Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.
Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?
NJ at #7 could use Nylander.
Anaheim?
Sell me, a noted Nylander-homer*, on the idea. Make it worth my while to even consider this. Especially this super smart idea to dump Nylander for no salary coming back so we can afford a just past-prime UFA tier 2 RD.
* Willy is Shanahan's son's favourite, btw
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.
I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now. They're all in rebuild mode.
Agree. He's not going anywhere and now I kind of hope AP signs with St. Louis or somewhere else. Would still like a Kuemper for Freddie deal though.I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.
I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now. They're all in rebuild mode.
I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.
I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now. They're all in rebuild mode.
I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.
I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now. They're all in rebuild mode.
I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
I believe this too. GMs are looking to win now, unless they're in a rebuild mode. I didn't say this would happen. Only that it would be the best way to improve this clubs defense. Having said that, I think we can all conclude AP is not likely coming to Toronto no matter how much any of us want to see it happen.
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.
I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now. They're all in rebuild mode.
I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
Agreed. If Nylander is going Dubas needs to bring back a high end D man like you said. Anything less is a serious loss.I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.
I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now. They're all in rebuild mode.
I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
Ding ding ding. Kerfoot/Johnsson (same total cap hit as Nylander) are also way easier to move individually in cap space opening trades without either side feeling like it's a loss.
The only way I'd trade Nylander is for an equivalent value player in a position of need, and use the cap differential to try to replace the goals. Say Nylander+ for Ekblad+, or maybe Parayko+, or Heiskanen/Q.Hughes/Makar. None of that weak Pesce/Manson/Montour garbage GMs were floating during the contract standoff.
I'm maxed at 7.27M AAV over 7 yrs with whatever structure is nice and attractive for him to move his young family, but also give some flexibility to both parties if it ends up not working as expected, while still leveraging MLSE infinite cash. Yeah the AAV is less than STL's 7.7M offer, but they hate NMCs and SBs.
Example:
5 (4M SB, NMC)
7 (6M SB, NMC)
8.89 (7M SB, NMC)
10.5 (10M SB, m-NTC)
8 (7M SB, m-NTC)
6 (5M SB, m-NTC)
5.5 (4M SB, m-NTC)
Hello thereDarren Dreger said on TSN1050 today that "Structure above all else is crucial to a deal getting done with Alex Pietrangelo". Signing bonus money is tough for St Louis to manage.
— Editor in J (@Account4hockey) September 23, 2020
Andy Strickland said that yesterday on First Up. AP wants it structured like many do now. St Louis told him we don't do that. He also wants a NMC. Strickland said he wouldn't be surprised if he took less somewhere else if it's structured the way he'd like. Says he feels disrespected. We'll see.
St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.
St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.
No NMCs either.
If we can leverage bonuses and NMC/NTC assurances into a lower AAV and term (a la Muzzin)...
Def, they offer signing bonuses in almost every new deal. Makes a player easier to trade down the road. Win for the player and the team.St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.
No NMCs either.
If we can leverage bonuses and NMC/NTC assurances into a lower AAV and term (a la Muzzin)...
You can guarantee any deal the Leafs offer will be league minimum actual salary and everything in signing bonus.
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him? The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left. Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him? The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left. Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him? The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left. Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road. I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him? The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left. Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road. I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.
We would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role. Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him? The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left. Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road. I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.
It's a way to look at it. I'm not sure I necessarily want to put all our eggs into the basket of win before Matthews leaves in 4 years basket though. Realistically we have the chance of having Marner/Matthews/Nylander here as elite players for another 10 years. Signing Pietrangelo to a big deal is great. It also means we lose Rielly in a year. So are the Leafs that much better of a Cup contender with a garbage bottom 6 fowards because we can't pay anyone by simply replacing Rielly with Pietrangelo? I'm not sure that's really the case. It would make us much better on the defense this year and then we could be a world of trouble the year after that.
Ovechkin didn't win his Cup until his 13th season with the Capitals.
Kerfoot and Johnsson will do it.That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him? The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left. Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road. I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.
Who you shipping out to make the space?
You just said you don?t want to be Edmonton and then recommended trading out one of the team?s top wingers for a defenseman.
We would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role. Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.
Why not? The friggin Islanders nearly made it to the final and the Stars did. Get on a roll at the right time and you never know. A guy like Pietrangelo would soak up alot of minutesWe would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role. Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.
You think the Leafs are a Pietrangelo away from winning a cup?
I'm not sure you can do it with Kerfoot and Johnsson.You can do it.. Challenging but you can make it work if he comes in at 8 mill.
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.Why not? The friggin Islanders nearly made it to the final and the Stars did. Get on a roll at the right time and you never know. A guy like Pietrangelo would soak up alot of minutesWe would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role. Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.
You think the Leafs are a Pietrangelo away from winning a cup?
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
That's the kicker isn't it? I don't consider Kerfoot and Johnsson significant though. From a points view, I don't think losing them hurts too bad offensively. That's what Dubas and Co have to figure out if AP gets to market. Even if the Leafs go after say TJ Brodie, or any other D man via ufa or trade, you may still have to move one of those guys. You also have to be very careful not to overpay because next year you have Hyman/Freddie up and the year after that it's Rielly. You can't overpay for a "good" player and expect those guys to take a haircut. If it's a guy like AP, it's a different scenario according to Mike Johnson. I actually think Dubas would talk to the core guys about AP like he did when JT was available. If you're moving a big 4 piece like Nylander you have to get a significant D man in return. Nylander+ for Parayko kind of thing.Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
It is interesting as we just came off a playoff series where the Leafs outplayed Columbus and lost because they had no scoring depth.
They got 17 points out of Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander. They got 8 points from the other 8 forwards.
Agree with Zee here. Leafs had the chances, but couldn't bury them.Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
It is interesting as we just came off a playoff series where the Leafs outplayed Columbus and lost because they had no scoring depth.
They got 17 points out of Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander. They got 8 points from the other 8 forwards.
It was more to the point the Leafs lost because they shot 2% for the entire series which historically isn't going to happen all the time.
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
When do we get to discuss Thornton signing with the Leafs for $750K?
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
We can only handle one UFA at a time. Joe is next!I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
When do we get to discuss Thornton signing with the Leafs for $750K?
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%
If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
It's also worth remembering, although for the life of me I don't know why people want to bring this up again in the Pietrangelo thread, that McDavid originally negotiated a larger contract and then chose himself to come down from that a little. He wasn't interested in maxing out his leverage, Matthews was.
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%
If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
Why? Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Benn to name a few, all signed 5 year deals on their 2nd contracts. Worried that he'll want more money next contract, or that he'll leave via UFA?
I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%
If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?
As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.
If I recall, Matthews only accepted the ACV of $11.6m if the term was shorter. I remember the quote was something like "find something that works"...so they landed on a 5 year deal. It sounded like he would have sought more ACV if the term was longer.
It was Marner that was maxing out his leverage and holding out. Matthews didn't do that.
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing William to pay Alex and Jamie.
It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.
The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?
It might. But please define "long term" in the current NHL.As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.
This is all over the place. We don't know if teams undervalue Nylander. Cap space is fixed, so if you want, or in the Leafs' case, NEED to spend some money on the defense, then indeed you'll have to give up some of your offense cap dollars. As of today, Justin Holl is their only returning RHD under contract.
They may very well have to go in a more Brodie direction, but for an extra $3m in cap space, you can have a guy that just finished fourth in Norris voting. And in terms of his age, Hedman, and Josi, and Carlsson are all around that same age...you got a problem with their deals as well?
They've been screwing around with the defense for years now, and not seemingly able to the right price/performance out of the right side. If Pietrangelo lands in their laps for zero talent cost, you find a way to make him fit.
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%
If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
Why? Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Benn to name a few, all signed 5 year deals on their 2nd contracts. Worried that he'll want more money next contract, or that he'll leave via UFA?
I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
And how many superstar UFA's left their original teams after 8 years?Why? Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Benn to name a few, all signed 5 year deals on their 2nd contracts. Worried that he'll want more money next contract, or that he'll leave via UFA?
I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
My gut feeling is that he will walk after the 5th year
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%
If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?
As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing William to pay Alex and Jamie.
It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing William to pay Alex and Jamie.
It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.
What exactly is not going to happen? Jamie Drysdale or a similar promising d-man? It was a pretty vague statement . If you?re saying the Leafs can?t get a 1st round pick that they could select a defenceman with for William Nylander than I?m going to call you out here. Lol . What?s he worth in your mind, a second rounder?
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing William to pay Alex and Jamie.
It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.
What exactly is not going to happen? Jamie Drysdale or a similar promising d-man? It was a pretty vague statement . If you?re saying the Leafs can?t get a 1st round pick that they could select a defenceman with for William Nylander than I?m going to call you out here. Lol . What?s he worth in your mind, a second rounder?
I think busta was referring to some conversations a few pages ago where we surmised that the top-5 pickers in this year's draft are all in rebuild mode, and wouldn't need or want a Nylander/$7m forward. They all need to draft a core player and get the ELC savings, and suck for a couple of more years.
Picks 6+ may be on the table, given some of those teams could use a Nylander to so some degree or another...but even then, a lot of them need to suck a little while longer as well.
[Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man. Obviously targeting the highest rated defenceman is preferable but it doesn?t mean I?d stop there if there wasn?t a trade available. From what I?ve read the consensus is there isn?t a ton difference from Drysdale and the next 3-4 d-man in the draft. The idea hasn?t changed. You should be able to flip Nylander for a good promising 1st round prospect. Even if that pick is for next years draft.
Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man.
Fair enough but the main point still stands.I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.
Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.
I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits. He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front. I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term. Its baffling really.
McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%
If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?
As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.
6 guys did it, not 4, making under $7m: David Pastrnak, Mika Zibanejad, Nathan MacKinnon, Patrice Bergeron, William Nylander, Dominik Kubalik.
[Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man. Obviously targeting the highest rated defenceman is preferable but it doesn?t mean I?d stop there if there wasn?t a trade available. From what I?ve read the consensus is there isn?t a ton difference from Drysdale and the next 3-4 d-man in the draft. The idea hasn?t changed. You should be able to flip Nylander for a good promising 1st round prospect. Even if that pick is for next years draft.
That?s ?consensus? doesn?t match anything I?ve read. What I?ve seen has Drysdale as the clear best defender (and the teams that will be in position to draft him aren?t in a position to trade that pick for immediate help), followed not super closely by Sanderson, and the rest are in a tier clearly below - to the point where there doesn?t even seem to be a clear consensus on who else will go in the 1st round.
As for this promising young player or prospect - how about identifying some? It?s great to speak in hypotheticals, but put your money where your mouth is. Who is a potential trade target on a team that is position to move a promising young D for a forward?
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
The idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft .
The idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft .
I confess, that's something that's difficult for me to understand given that there is no way to secure a "high-end" first rounder for next year's draft.
The idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft .
I confess, that's something that's difficult for me to understand given that there is no way to secure a "high-end" first rounder for next year's draft.
So ... no way to trade Nylander for a high end first round This year or next. Ok. Discussion over Nik. Thanks
I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.I don't see Ottawa doing that because they have Melnyk lol.
They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.
I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.
They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.
Well said Nik. You need to hit a home run if you're trading one of your biggest assets.I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.I don't see Ottawa doing that because they have Melnyk lol.
They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Too much money for Eugene here.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Willy might be the answer for 3C. Maybe they get Koivu on a cheap contract. Maybe Thornton or another UFA. Maybe Engvall can step up. I'd lean towards Willy and then you'd have to get a winger for JT/Matthews. Maybe is Barabanov. Don't know what Dubas is thinking or who he can get. We'll figure it out but one thing for certain, if we're going after AP and need the space, I'm trading Kerfoot and Johnsson long before I get rid of Nylander. They also had 17 goals and 49 points between them. AP had 52 points so not really hard to replace. Kerfoot more then Johnsson but it can be done.Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Could be. Will between Barabanov, Mikheyev. We'll see.Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.
Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Willy is playing 3C. ;D
I think if the Leafs do manage to get Pietrangelo there's a pretty good chance Thornton will be here too. Like I expect Dubas to pursue him regardless but there's a better chance of Thornton being interested in a 1-year Cup run with Pietrangelo here.I think so to, or someone similar. I think we might even see Simmonds come also for the 4th line. AP def could influence someone's choice. We'll find out soon enough.
Willy is playing 3C. ;D
Willy is playing 3C. ;D
I think we'd be seeing the puck get fished out our own net a lot, and miss out on offense on the first two lines where he should be.
If there's one thing that I can't truly get behind in Dubas' plan, it's the lack of grinding role players that should be part of a 3rd and 4th line mix.
Willy is playing 3C. ;D
I think we'd be seeing the puck get fished out our own net a lot, and miss out on offense on the first two lines where he should be.
If there's one thing that I can't truly get behind in Dubas' plan, it's the lack of grinding role players that should be part of a 3rd and 4th line mix.
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
That Yanni Gourde guy would be so amazing in Toronto. He's a close to a darcy tucker as I've seen, apart from maybe having better financial advice.
That Yanni Gourde guy would be so amazing in Toronto. He's a close to a darcy tucker as I've seen, apart from maybe having better financial advice.
Justin Bourne said Dubas was a big fan of Gourde's before he got into the NHL.
It's the most overblown thing attached to Dubas. He didn't win the Calder with all small skilled players. He had a mixture of everything. I'm interested to see what he does this off/next seasonI mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.
I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.
I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.
I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.
Oh I'm not criticizing the Leafs, just an observation on Tampa. I do think Dubas recognizes the costs to acquire players such as that we might need more of that on the team if the cost fits.
Which is why the Leafs need to stick it out with the core here.I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.
I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.
Oh I'm not criticizing the Leafs, just an observation on Tampa. I do think Dubas recognizes the costs to acquire players such as that we might need more of that on the team if the cost fits.
It should be noted that Tampa didn't burn their core depth to add these finishing pieces, and if anything, they really stuck to their guns even when they missed the playoffs due to injury (the Leafs got in with rookie Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Hyman instead) or got trounced by Columbus.
They did crush the top of their prospect pipeline to do it (and the McDonagh trade), but got some good production from UFAs who wanted to play on a strong team for a little less.
Should the Leafs pursue Alex Pietrangelo at all costs?
— Maple Leafs Hotstove (@LeafsNews) September 28, 2020
Maybe not says @APetrielli
More 👇https://t.co/wJ0WId4heT
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
That?s also not super for the team?s depth up front, but, I also question whether the right move is throwing all the cap space at Pietrangelo or if the Leafs would be better off using it on Brodie and DeMelo (for instance). They wouldn?t add the high end piece, but it would add two very good pieces to the blue line, increasing the defensive depth. Pietrangelo would make the team top heavy on the backend as well as up front.
?s=20Of note on T.J. Brodie: He has the Leafs listed on his no-go section of his no-trade list. Toronto tried to acquire him last June in a Kadri deal.
— James Mirtle (@mirtle) January 24, 2020
Brodie has stated in the past he does not want to play in Toronto.?s=20Of note on T.J. Brodie: He has the Leafs listed on his no-go section of his no-trade list. Toronto tried to acquire him last June in a Kadri deal.
— James Mirtle (@mirtle) January 24, 2020
People change. We don?t know the reasons why Brodie blocked the trade. They might not apply to a free agent contract - different situation, different options, etc.
If indeed Brodie blocked a trade to Toronto, I think that's relevant information.
It's not definitive in terms of whether or not he'd sign a deal here, but it's not irrelevant.
If the Leafs sign say a Brodie it's probably going to cost them 5.5? Anything around there and it will still cost them a Johnsson or Kerfoot. To me it doesn't make sense to sign a #6 guy when you have Dermott, Lehtonen.I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
That?s also not super for the team?s depth up front, but, I also question whether the right move is throwing all the cap space at Pietrangelo or if the Leafs would be better off using it on Brodie and DeMelo (for instance). They wouldn?t add the high end piece, but it would add two very good pieces to the blue line, increasing the defensive depth. Pietrangelo would make the team top heavy on the backend as well as up front.
The good news is that this will get settled in about 2 weeks from now.Yup. Give or take we should find out the Leafs plans. Still think Spezza is coming back as 4th line centre.
Invalid Tweet IDSeems like they took the article down.
Fitzgerald's been training to be a NHL GM for over 10 years but apparently no one taught him the rules about tampering.
You're supposed to leak this to someone in the media not tell them on the record and have them post it on NHL.com.
Invalid Tweet IDSeems like they took the article down.
Fitzgerald's been training to be a NHL GM for over 10 years but apparently no one taught him the rules about tampering.
You're supposed to leak this to someone in the media not tell them on the record and have them post it on NHL.com.
"If (St. Louis Blues defenseman) Alex Pietrangelo became a free agent ... he's a franchise-turning player, a champion, captain, leader with character," Devils general manager Tom Fitzgerald said. "If the agent called me, I'm taking it up (to Devils managing partners) Josh Harris and David Blitzer and the pros on why, even at this stage where we're at, where it can take us.
"Do I anticipate that happening? I can't answer that. Maybe he stays in St. Louis. However, we need to fill some holes and if I can do it through hockey trades, great. If I can do it through cap space, great. If I need to do it through a free agent or two, then we'll go that route, but we have some holes and I need to fill them."
I kind of like that no one has talked about him for a week or so. I think he stays in St Louis.
I think they'll take another kick at the can and will bend a little bit here. We'll see. Maybe he gets pissed off and the Leafs sign him for 7 mill lol. Time will tell I guess.I kind of like that no one has talked about him for a week or so. I think he stays in St Louis.
There's not really much to say since he can't talk to other teams. I really don't see St. Louis all of a sudden ponying up the signing bonus money at the last minute.
T-minus 18 hrs
T-minus 18 hrs
To watch him not sign with the leafs?
You know I always wonder about contracts etc. With the Leafs being cap crunched could they offer AP a contract with say 6-7 million per year and give him some kind of job with the organization after his career is done. Pay him good money as a coach, scout whatever something in the organization and throw in some incentives, endorsement money etc. Money he sacrifices now he'll reap in a few years. Is that an option?I hear what you're saying and don't doubt that happens but from my understanding, it's against the rules.
The leafs can?t give the players endorsement deals. The players have to seek out those deals themselves.But you can bet the Leafs have lots of friends looking for hockey players to push their products.
Two sources confirm the #NHLJets are close to striking a deal for C Paul Stastny from the Vegas Golden Knights. Sounds like picks are involved going the other way.
— Scott Billeck (@ScottBilleck) October 9, 2020
Stastny has one-year left on a deal making him $6.5 million per year.
The one advantage the Leafs have is the contract structure, namely most teams cannot afford to front end the contract the way Toronto can. This is more attractive to a player, but even more so in uncertain economic circumstances (flat cap, no ticket sales, shorter seasons etc). It helps even the field that favours lower tax jurisdictions (not as big a draw as is usually portrayed because taxation liability is shared among the various jurisdictions where games are played) and the influence of inertia which often influences a player to stay with his current team.If anyone gives Krug 7.5 they're insane. Same with Brodie. If he wants 6 mill, see ya later. Leafs can't afford to overpay anyone, including Petro if they go after him.
Otherwise, I expect the dollar amount will be the same for most offers because economic exigencies will limit the willingness of ownership to get into a bidding war.
That said, if Torey Krug is turning down $6.5M for 6 years and offers of 7 years x $7.5 are being prepared (as is alleged) then Pietrangelo will ultimately prove to be too expensive for the Leafs.
You know I always wonder about contracts etc. With the Leafs being cap crunched could they offer AP a contract with say 6-7 million per year and give him some kind of job with the organization after his career is done. Pay him good money as a coach, scout whatever something in the organization and throw in some incentives, endorsement money etc. Money he sacrifices now he'll reap in a few years. Is that an option?I hear what you're saying and don't doubt that happens but from my understanding, it's against the rules.
If anyone is curious, the relevant section of the CBA is Article 26.3. All of the things being suggested are expressly not allowed.
Also, what's being suggested doesn't make practical sense either. So let's say in negotiations between Pietrangelo's agent and Dubas that something along these lines is proposed. Pietrangelo has a 7 year/63 million offer on the table somewhere but the Leafs offer him 7 years/49 million but also a hush-hush agreement to pay him 15 million over 5 years as a scout once his career is over.
Well, the immediate problem is that the first offer is still more lucrative for the same reason guys want front-loaded deals with signing bonuses. They want that money in their investment accounts toot suite. So in order for the Leafs to make the hidden offer more lucrative they probably would need to pay him over and above the level of the comparative offer elsewhere. So let's say it's 25 million over 5 years in the secret deal.
Well, ok, but if you're Pietrangelo's agent the obvious question there is what mechanism do you have to ensure that 25 million gets paid? You can't very well sign a contract to that effect because, you know, then it becomes evidence. So are you taking Dubas' word? Dubas might not be associated with the Leafs when the secret payments are set to begin. Shanahan? Same deal. Hell, even the Rogers/Bell board members might not be around or they or Tanenbaum may sell the team. And try telling an incoming owner they have to be party to a secretly agreed upon side deal that's A) expensive and B) could seriously damage their team if exposed.
But even ignore that for a second. Remember that the relationship between teams and agents are frequently adversarial. If you're Dubas, do you want to put your professional reputation at stake and likely the chance of ever getting a job in hockey again and then put all that in the hands of an agent? What about AGMs? What if they get hired by other teams? What if your relationship with Pietrangelo himself sours over the years of his deal? And remember, you're taking on all this risk for a couple million dollars in cap savings.
Some of you would not make for very good criminals.
Some of you would not make for very good criminals.
I'm honestly not sure why you're bothering to explain why it doesn't make sense. Slow day? 8)
The Toronto Maple Leafs and Vegas Golden Knights have spoken to Pietrangelo. Interesting to see who else steps forward.
— Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) October 9, 2020
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.What did Dubas say or is that what he said?
Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?
The ONLY answer to that question is another question...
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.What did Dubas say or is that what he said?
Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?
The ONLY answer to that question is another question...
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
Got ya.TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.What did Dubas say or is that what he said?
Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?
The ONLY answer to that question is another question...
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
Dubas hasn?t said anything yet to my knowledge. I was just paraphrasing what TSN said that I wholeheartedly agreed with.
Got ya.TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.What did Dubas say or is that what he said?
Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?
The ONLY answer to that question is another question...
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
Dubas hasn?t said anything yet to my knowledge. I was just paraphrasing what TSN said that I wholeheartedly agreed with.
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If we're operating under the assumption that that the better a team is the better chance they have of winning a cup, isn't that question the basis for every single move ever made by every team?
"Does acquiring [Target Player] (at the cost of one of those [current asset(s)]) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance."
Applies to every trade/signing situation. Not unique to Toronto's.
Not sure what your point is relating to the context that was outlined ?
Not sure what your point is relating to the context that was outlined ?
I guess I was a little confused as to why that question would need to be emphasized when, again, I feel like it's at the heart of the discussion of any move a team might make.
It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.My kids love that commerical lol
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.
That ones so good.It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.
You're weird for thinking it's weird.
I like the "your girlfriend looks like mom" one.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)Pietrangelo at 700K let's go!!!!
Yes!!!(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)Pietrangelo at 700K let's go!!!!
Pietrangelo to show everyone what a hometown discount actually looks like. LolYes!!!(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)Pietrangelo at 700K let's go!!!!
Yup St Louis has moved on.
Apparently Krug to St. Louis.
Which would make you think he's moving on.
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.
If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.
If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.
Well, I don't know the former, but I'm interested in is did Dubas sign Brodie knowing the blues had signed Krug, making Toronto a potential 2nd choice and further negotiation, or not?
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.
If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.
Well, I don't know the former, but I'm interested in is did Dubas sign Brodie knowing the blues had signed Krug, making Toronto a potential 2nd choice and further negotiation, or not?
Might?ve been irrelevant. Brodie means there?s an avenue for re-signing Reilly. Pietrangelo tanks that unless we make TSN?s dream come true.
Sure, there's lots of opinions as to why they should or shouldn't be pursuing Pietrangelo in this 22 page thread. I'd still be curious as to whether the leafs took themselves out of it because they didn't want to be the last one standing when the music stopped, or because they truly thought signing him wasn't a good idea.
Even after the Krug signing, Blues GM Doug Armstrong just said he doesn't consider Pietrangelo out of the mix, saying he hopes that Pietrangelo keeps them in the loop. I don't think this is a realistic scenario. #stlblues
— Jeremy Rutherford (@jprutherford) October 10, 2020
So wait... They didn't pony up an extra $1m-1.5m to resign their captain? How much better is Pietro vs Krug?
In the end, Pietrangelo?s ask was simply too much for Toronto. And it was clear the Leafs were not his first choice, with Vegas the clear front-runner, even after some of Toronto?s top players tried to talk him into coming home.
Unlike Wayne Simmonds, who signed with the Leafs earlier in the day, Pietrangelo wasn?t going to take less to be in Toronto.
?Alex won?t be signing anywhere at a discount,? one source close to the player told The Athletic on Friday evening.
We'll have to see what the final number is but the only way I'd have been interested in Pietrangelo is at a substantial discount so I'm fine with that.
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.
Yeah, he's there to hear their pitch is what they are saying.
I imagine it's more about touring the facilities and stuff than just having a face to face meeting.
Woo!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201010/de1171c758da46dae7fc5853a02e576d.gif)Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.
Maybe he just likes to gamble.
I imagine it's more about touring the facilities and stuff than just having a face to face meeting.
Of course. Family transplant tour. But also... COVID hotspot.
Hearing a deal between Alex Pietrangelo and Vegas could be getting close. A decision/announcement may come as soon as tonight.
— Jeremy Rutherford (@jprutherford) October 11, 2020
Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?Heard 7 x 8.25 yesterday but nothing confirmed.
Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?
Schmidt would be a nica addition but cost way too much and plays the left side. We are already set on the left for now!Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?
I saw ~8.25M x 7, with requisite NMCs/NTC and bonuses as well (probably the same account, Guilt Trip?). Probably went down from 9ish once the Leafs cut bait and left only Vegas viable.
The Schmidt trade, which is established in principle but not currently filed for whatever reason, opens up nearly 6M for Vegas unless they have to retain. I know Dubas is a Schmidt fan, and wouldn't be opposed to seeing him land here twice retained via Florida (bye Holl); much nicer than him landing in Winnipeg or Boston.
Schmidt would be a nica addition but cost way too much and plays the left side. We are already set on the left for now!
Nice, dbl retain haha!Schmidt would be a nica addition but cost way too much and plays the left side. We are already set on the left for now!
He plays both and has been 1RD for Vegas actually. Twice-retain (at max amounts) would bring him down to ~1.5M
Oh noesSome rumblings regarding Vegas players being upset their names have been rumored in trades and how poorly the situation has been handled internally. #Vegasborn
— Andy Strickland (@andystrickland) October 12, 2020
Well then we don't want any of those guys in T.O where you're rumoured to be traded weekly lol.Oh noesSome rumblings regarding Vegas players being upset their names have been rumored in trades and how poorly the situation has been handled internally. #Vegasborn
— Andy Strickland (@andystrickland) October 12, 2020
Alex Pietrangelo is finalizing a deal with the Vegas Golden Knights, sources confirm.
— Pierre LeBrun (@PierreVLeBrun) October 12, 2020
Pietrangelo 7x$8.8M in LV
— Elliotte Friedman (@FriedgeHNIC) October 12, 2020
So who they dumping now to make room?Fluery or a combo of around 6 mill. We'll take Whitecloud off their hands!
Pietrangelo 7x$8.8M in LV
— Elliotte Friedman (@FriedgeHNIC) October 12, 2020
Apparently no signing bonuses or anything like that. Really strange move by St Louis and Petro here. That sounds like a broken relationship. As for Vegas, I don't think it was worth it. They lost Schmidt who is very good and they still need to dump someone else because they're still over the cap with 12F 7D.
I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it. I think Vegas is going to dump Fleury and retain half his salary. That'll give them 2 mill to play with. They really don't have anyone to sign in 21/22.
It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.
I was just looking at CapFriendly....that's what the ! is for lolApparently no signing bonuses or anything like that. Really strange move by St Louis and Petro here. That sounds like a broken relationship. As for Vegas, I don't think it was worth it. They lost Schmidt who is very good and they still need to dump someone else because they're still over the cap with 12F 7D.
Maybe I missed it but I don't think anyone's reported the breakdown/structure of the contract yet.
Re: dumping Fleury, guess again:I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it. I think Vegas is going to dump Fleury and retain half his salary. That'll give them 2 mill to play with. They really don't have anyone to sign in 21/22.
It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.
?s=19McCrimmon says LV is not trading Marc-Andre Fleury. It will be a Fleury/Lehner tandem
— Elliotte Friedman (@FriedgeHNIC) October 13, 2020
No guesses. We'll take Whitecloud off their hands though.Re: dumping Fleury, guess again:I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it. I think Vegas is going to dump Fleury and retain half his salary. That'll give them 2 mill to play with. They really don't have anyone to sign in 21/22.
It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.?s=19McCrimmon says LV is not trading Marc-Andre Fleury. It will be a Fleury/Lehner tandem
— Elliotte Friedman (@FriedgeHNIC) October 13, 2020
I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it.
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro. Get rid of Nylander because Petro answers all the needs they have on D. He then slams Brodie in one sentence because Calgary let him go but no mention about St Louis moving on from Petro and saving themselves 2.3 mill.
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro. Get rid of Nylander because Petro answers all the needs they have on D. He then slams Brodie in one sentence because Calgary let him go but no mention about St Louis moving on from Petro and saving themselves 2.3 mill.
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro.
Colaiacovo is one of those Woodbridge Leafs fans that doesn't think that far. Give him a big name signing and he'd dump a bunch of players to get him without thinking of consequences.
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?
I read that as well. Parayko apparently got the tougher assignments.I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?
I really don't think enough attention got paid to that article that was posted examining Pietrangelo's actual role with the Blues. I think most of the people who really wanted him here cast him in the Norris-contending do everything play 25 minutes a night and be the best defenseman on the whole ice and apparently aren't aware that the Blues had their real success in not using him against the other team's top lines.
I really don't think enough attention got paid to that article that was posted examining Pietrangelo's actual role with the Blues. I think most of the people who really wanted him here cast him in the Norris-contending do everything play 25 minutes a night and be the best defenseman on the whole ice and apparently aren't aware that the Blues had their real success in not using him against the other team's top lines.