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Messages - Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

This is all very interesting conversation.  To me, it boils down to: it's hard as hell to get elite talent.  You do everything you can to keep it because you almost surely aren't going to instantly replace.  If you accept that, #1 on the list of things you can do is change the coaching if things aren't working.  The Leafs pulled the trigger on that.  I think it's crazy not to give Berube a chance to see if he can get a Marner-inclusive team to perform better in the playoffs — everyone, not just Marner.

I think that's exactly what will happen.  Unless Marner decides he can't stand Berube and wants out now, which I suppose is always possible.
Quote from: archie holdsworth on May 26, 2024, 04:16:04 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on May 26, 2024, 02:53:15 PMI wish some members of the media would stop harping on about Marner being the problem for the Leafs not having more playoff success.

Marner is not the problem.

In fact, I would wager he will move onto another team find amazing playoff success and prove this BS theory completely false.

The problem with Maple Leafs is structure, too top heavy and not enough players that can or are willing to play good defensive hockey (Marner is not poor defensively, as proven with his utility on the penalty kill).

It will be regrettable if Marner is the player that is forced out the door in order to fix this teams flaws, but the most regrettable issue is how some of the media are berating him and placing the blame squarely on him .

The guy is one of the very best offensive players in the league and one of the best Leafs of all time. I just hope trading him or letting him walk doesn't come back and bite this team in the ass like it has with a few other ex-Leafs in recent years.

I'm on the same page as you and others who aren't looking to run Marner out of town.

I can't say that the Leafs should keep Marner no matter what. If a value for value trade came up that made lots of sense for the Leafs and for Marner, then sure, you would at least look at it. But this idea of shoving Marner out the door, just because? It's not a good idea.

The Leafs have enough cap space to fix some of their problems. They should address finding a top pairing defenseman. They need at least a 1A goaltender. All the issues that need fixing aren't going to be accomplished in one off-season.

After next season, the Tavares contract will be off the books or re-negotiated. The cap will probably take a much bigger jump. There should be room for further changes. I know Matthews is only signed for 4 more years, but that's a problem for down the road. Remember when he was apparently going to Phoenix for sure? If he likes how the team is developing, he's probably going to stick around.

The Leafs should be looking at re-signing Marner. There will be a salary bump. Leafs fans shouldn't fly off the handle when he gets that.

Good posts, and I agree.
Quote from: Dappleganger on May 23, 2024, 12:39:01 PM
Quote from: herman on May 23, 2024, 12:07:18 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on May 23, 2024, 11:39:24 AMBerube might have some issues with Nylander...

Nylander is reportedly the only core 4 player who asked Keefe to help hold him accountable (they had a pre-existing relationship with the Marlies). He'll appreciate whatever Berube is serving and use it as fuel.

Keefe never really was able to (or allowed to?) do anything of the sort to Tavares, Matthews, Marner when they dogged it until this past season (under new management). I'm sure he wanted to, but he also wanted to win games and would trot them out there regardless of performance on most nights.

Strictly looking at it as Matthews and Marner are both Selke vote getters as best defensive forward.

Pretty awesome that they both are in that conversation.

Team D slipped this year IIRC but Keefe did get them to play better as a whole last year.
Quote from: Joe on May 23, 2024, 10:06:33 AM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 22, 2024, 10:29:10 PMconvince Matthews that he has plenty of personal trophies and needs a team one.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post but I don't really see the merit of this one. Mathews plays a team game. He's absolutely a 200ft player.

Yeah, that came off the wrong way.  I was just fishing for something to say about each one of the core four.  Matthews is captain in everything but the letter on his sweater.
Digesting all this the past few days, FWIW I think Berube sounds just like what the doctor ordered.  Let's see if he can get Marner to attack the net more, root out the last vestiges of Nylander taking shifts off, convince Matthews that he has plenty of personal trophies and needs a team one, and convert Tavares into a faceoff-taking winger.

And fix whatever the hell is wrong with Woll and mold Hildeby into an instant backup.
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 14, 2024, 09:02:36 PMDon't forget JT was matched to against the Pasta line in the playoffs.  His main job was defending and did a good job overall. 

Aside from the series-winning-goal (yes, big exception) Pastrnak didn't look overly dangerous as in years past.
Eh, I wouldn't touch him.  His "miss" was a huge failure in judgment, at the very least.
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 09, 2024, 09:27:06 AMAnyway Keefe is a good coach. I have no doubt he'll get hired somewhere relatively quickly and have success. But this was very clearly at least one year too late.

I think he's a mediocre coach gifted with talent.  Inexcusable how he couldn't adjust when aspects of the team's game went south, the PP this time a case in point.
Quote from: herman on May 09, 2024, 09:23:15 AMIs it unfair of me to keep hitching Keefe's style and Marner's style together? Great regular season results (but not outright dominant...), and middling to sour playoff results.

Is it Mitch Marner style, or is he just a very good follower of his coach's requests? Keefe kept saying Marner played great, but it very visibly wasn't what we needed from him.

Yes, it is.
Quote from: herman on May 09, 2024, 09:23:15 AMIs it unfair of me to keep hitching Keefe's style and Marner's style together? Great regular season results (but not outright dominant...), and middling to sour playoff results.

Is it Mitch Marner style, or is he just a very good follower of his coach's requests? Keefe kept saying Marner played great, but it very visibly wasn't what we needed from him.

Well, now we'll test the hypothesis.  If Marner can't adapt better in next season's playoffs (assuming we make it) that gives us the answer.
Quote from: cw on May 07, 2024, 06:56:55 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: cabber24 on May 07, 2024, 11:28:55 AMPaying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.
Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Since he came into the league, Marner is 10th in NHL scoring.
Since signing the current contract, Marner is 7th in NHL scoring and 8th in ppg
The players in that rental district are getting the kind of dough Marner is.
Marner does something not all of them do: plays a responsible 200 foot game and helps on the PK.
If Marner is overpaid, I do not think it is by much - maybe a few hundred grand.

Marner is not a perfect player but he consistently does a lot of very good things at a high level.

In Leafs all-time career stats, Marner is 3rd in Leafs ppg, 5th in assists, 8th in scoring & 16th in goals. He's only 27 years old.

This cherry picking of game 5-7 playoff stats bothered me.
First of all, you don't get to games 5-7 if you aren't scoring in games 1-4.
Since he pulled on a Leafs jersey in 2016-17, the Leafs leading playoff scorer is ... Mitch Marner!!
With Leafs playoff scoring an issue, people want to get rid of their top playoff scorer to solve it? Doesn't make sense to me.

Since 2017, the Leafs scored 28 PP goals in the playoffs. Marner scored or assisted on 17 of them (61%). With a shift in the difference in the playoffs to special teams increasingly deciding the outcome, chucking the best or one of the best special teams guy(s) (he Pk's too) probably shouldn't be at the top of the list.

There's still a bunch to find out about what happened. I read today about how Tavares & Marner were the Pastrnak checking line with two thirds of their starts in the d-zone because Keefe didn't feel he had anyone else up to it (Kampf & Holmberg according to Keefe were not). Add in Matthews & Nylander injuries and the core 4 were neutralized for a hunk of the series.

I think that some of the over-reactions are emotional / irrational.

We have a window - it is half closed. They need to be careful about what they do.
If they could find a reliable, healthy goalie, the playoff roster as otherwise is would be a contender in my opinion. I hope the media rhetoric dies down trying to find a sacrificial Leafs player lamb for their readers/subscribers and cooler, smarter heads prevail.

This, people.  And lay off the armchair psychologizing already. 
What, exactly, is this Shanaplan we all talk about?  Did he actually write down somewhere "I'm going to get 4 core forwards and pay the living hell out of them and then figure it out from there"?  Or did the fact the his Boy King actually lured Tavares, and he himself managed to pull the magical ping pong ball out of the tub, just sort of lead things in that direction?
Quote from: Bender on May 06, 2024, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington on May 06, 2024, 05:27:04 PM
Quote from: herman on May 06, 2024, 05:24:51 PMhttps://twitter.com/friedgehnic/status/1787607991740456996


Guessing coaching change this summer and Shanahan out in 12 months if that doesn't fix things.

Wake me up when Shanny's fired. I still have some interest but this is about entertainment and the Leafs under Shanahan as of right now are not entertaining.

I have to disagree there.  The Leafs play really entertaining hi-offense hockey ... until mid-April.  In fact they are super-fun to watch.  They just do a 180 once the playoff puck drops.
The only way to trade Marner is to force him out.  That is not going to go well no matter how you cut it.  Poor asset management.  The best thing to do is to see if a new coach can get him to play more N/S as herman said.  Then this time next year you make the decision.  A three-part calculation: You are weighing the chance that he thrives under a new structure versus letting him walk for nothing/4th rounder versus getting rid of him now for pennies on the dollar.
R1G1: TOR v BOS: Bruins 5-1.  MotM: Kämpf 2-0 (unanimous).  HM: McCabe 0/2 (changed my vote; unanimous).
R1G2: TOR v BOS: Leafs 3-2. MotM: Matthews 10-0 (unanimous). HM: Samsonov 0/4. Others: Kämpf 0/3, Domi 0/2, Reaves 0/1.
R1G3: BOS v TOR: Bruins 4-2. MotM: Edmundson 4/0.  HM: Knies 1/3.  Others: Bertuzzi 0/1, Tavares 0/1.
R1G4: BOS v TOR: Bruins 3-1.  MotM: Lyubushkin 3/0 (unanimous).  HM: Marner 0/2.  Others: Knies 0/1.
R1G5: TOR v BOS: Leafs 2-1 OT.  MotM: Woll 7/0 (unanimous).  HM: Knies 0/6.  Others: Tavares 0/1.
R1G6: BOS v TOR: Leafs 2-1.  MotM: Nylander 5/2.  HM: Woll 4/5.  Others: Knies 1/2, Benoit 0/1.
R1G7: TOR v BOS: Bruins 2-1 OT.  MotM: Knies 6/0.  HM: Nylander 2/2.  Others: Edmundson 1/0, Benoit 0/1, McCabe 0/1, Lyubushkin 0/1, Matthews 0/3.

I'm quite sure that's the first time 4 different d-men have gotten accolades in the same game.  Tells you something.

Knies is probably the series MVP.

   MotM/Win      MotM/Loss      HonMen      Accolades      Times Voted      Points   
57 Tyler Bertuzzi   0      0      0      0      1      1   
24 Connor Dewar   0      0      0      0      0      0   
11 Max Domi   0      0      0      0      1      1   
18 Noah Gregor   0      0      0      0      0      0   
29 Pontus Holmberg   0      0      0      0      0      0   
19 Calle Järnkrok   0      0      0      0      0      0   
64 David Kämpf   0      1      0      1      2      4   
23 Matthew Knies   0      1      2      3      5      9   
16 Mitch Marner   0      0      1      1      1      2   
34 Auston Matthews   1      0      0      1      2      5   
74 Bobby McMann   0      0      0      0      0      0   
88 William Nylander   1      0      1      2      2      6   
75 Ryan Reaves   0      0      0      0      1      1   
89 Nicholas Robertson   0      0      0      0      0      0   
91 John Tavares   0      0      0      0      2      2   
2 Simon Benoit   0      0      0      0      2      2   
78 T.J. Brodie   0      0      0      0      0      0   
20 Joel Edmundson   0      1      0      1      2      5   
55 Mark Giordano   0      0      0      0      0      0   
37 Timothy Liljegren   0      0      0      0      0      0   
46 Ilya Lyubushkin   0      1      0      1      2      5   
22 Jake McCabe   0      0      1      1      2      4   
44 Morgan Rielly   0      0      0      0      0      0   
25 Conor Timmins   0      0      0      0      0      0   
31 Martin Jones   0      0      0      0      0      0.0   
35 Ilya Samsonov   0      0      1      1      1      2.0   
60 Joseph Woll   1      0      1      2      2      6.0   
I think herman is too dismissive of Marner and too enamored of Nylander to be an entirely objective observer of those two but it's hard to deny that Marner had a down season and Nylander seems to be finding his best level.  His other predictions are pretty solid.

All you folks who want to dump Marner be careful what you wish for.  He's an elite talent and I'd love to see what a different coach might be able to spur him to.

I would just point out something that might otherwise get lost in the disappointment, which is that Treliving did a good job overall and a very good job at the deadline.  His additions of Lyubushkin and Edmundson had more positive impact in this series that anything Dubas ever did.  I hope they both stay.  And he added Benoit, who was a found-money home run, including against the Bs.  Our shitty PP and not good enough goaltending from Sammy were our downfall — not the play of the D corps (Rielly perhaps aside).  With Brodie and Giordano gone (and thanks to both of those guys for some good years) they have a chance to add another d-man to a corps that suddenly doesn't look all that bad.