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Messages - Bender

#1
Quote from: Joe on Yesterday at 07:02:04 AM
Quote from: Bender on June 16, 2024, 07:12:43 PMCrazier things have happened but I just feel that a comeback by Edmonton is just not going to happen.

I'm honestly asking - but what crazier thing has happened than a team blowing a 3-0 series lead in the finals?

Well it has happened previously and without the best player in the game beating Gretzky's playoff assist record etc. If one team can do it it wouldn't surprise me much to be on the back of the game's best player, so its not as inconceivable as some other comebacks. And also just generally speaking.
#2
Crazier things have happened but I just feel that a comeback by Edmonton is just not going to happen.
#3
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 01:06:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 13, 2024, 12:44:10 PM
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: herman on June 12, 2024, 03:46:49 PMhttps://twitter.com/nhl_watcher/status/1801024559849537584
- directly quoting the text he gets from Darren Ferris

Previously, after the playoffs
Toronto Sun May 06, 2024 link
Quote"That would be a goal," Marner said when he was asked if he wants to stay in Toronto longterm. "I've expressed my love for this place, this city. I grew up here. We'll start thinking about that now and trying to figure something out."

Hockey News June 4, 2024 Report: Preference From Mitch Marner's Camp to Start Season with Maple Leafs
Quote"As I wrote a few weeks ago, the Marner camp, led by agent Darren Ferris isn't putting together a list of teams for a potential trade. The focus for Marner, who has a full no-move clause, is on honoring the remaining year of his contract and seeing where things go from there," LeBrun wrote.

"That also means I don't think there's an appetite to talk extension come July 1. The preference from the Marner camp is to start the season and see how things go. Perhaps there are talks on an extension eventually, but I don't believe there's a strong desire to get into them this summer."

Now, we have this from Dreger quoting Marner's agent:
Quote"Marner has another year remaining on his contract and he intends to play it out ..."

I wonder how many times Marner has to say it before the media catches on ... (they need their subscriptions, ratings & clicks ..)

The clock is ticking. We're getting closer to the big dominos game on July 1 where after the first dominos fall, a bunch of plan B's, C's & D's get immediately launched, etc as they scramble.
A GM's time is increasingly precious now. He has to have all his ducks lined up.
Are they going to spend a bunch of their critical time on a complex, big $ trade where the player with a NMC hasn't even blessed any destination or provided a willingness to do so and his agent wants him to test the UFA market?
I really doubt it.

Whether Marner accepts being traded or not any time soon is up to Marner and he repeatedly has said he's not interested any time soon. If they don't want him around long term, his agent can take care of that July 1, 2025. It would save him some work - one less offer to review. The Leafs can try to find a 28 yr old, 95 pt replacement on the UFA market ... which I don't recall seeing very often

I think we all understand your position by now.

I was commenting on the recent quote by Dreger.
The Marner camp keeps repeating themselves.
The media and many fans aren't listening.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the media and fans think and they have a right to think however they like. I don't really care what the camp and Marner's agent has said to the media, but if Marner and his camp think that's a problem then he really shouldn't be here.
#4
This series is so over.
#5
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: herman on June 12, 2024, 03:46:49 PMhttps://twitter.com/nhl_watcher/status/1801024559849537584
- directly quoting the text he gets from Darren Ferris

Previously, after the playoffs
Toronto Sun May 06, 2024 link
Quote"That would be a goal," Marner said when he was asked if he wants to stay in Toronto longterm. "I've expressed my love for this place, this city. I grew up here. We'll start thinking about that now and trying to figure something out."

Hockey News June 4, 2024 Report: Preference From Mitch Marner's Camp to Start Season with Maple Leafs
Quote"As I wrote a few weeks ago, the Marner camp, led by agent Darren Ferris isn't putting together a list of teams for a potential trade. The focus for Marner, who has a full no-move clause, is on honoring the remaining year of his contract and seeing where things go from there," LeBrun wrote.

"That also means I don't think there's an appetite to talk extension come July 1. The preference from the Marner camp is to start the season and see how things go. Perhaps there are talks on an extension eventually, but I don't believe there's a strong desire to get into them this summer."

Now, we have this from Dreger quoting Marner's agent:
Quote"Marner has another year remaining on his contract and he intends to play it out ..."

I wonder how many times Marner has to say it before the media catches on ... (they need their subscriptions, ratings & clicks ..)

The clock is ticking. We're getting closer to the big dominos game on July 1 where after the first dominos fall, a bunch of plan B's, C's & D's get immediately launched, etc as they scramble.
A GM's time is increasingly precious now. He has to have all his ducks lined up.
Are they going to spend a bunch of their critical time on a complex, big $ trade where the player with a NMC hasn't even blessed any destination or provided a willingness to do so and his agent wants him to test the UFA market?
I really doubt it.

Whether Marner accepts being traded or not any time soon is up to Marner and he repeatedly has said he's not interested any time soon. If they don't want him around long term, his agent can take care of that July 1, 2025. It would save him some work - one less offer to review. The Leafs can try to find a 28 yr old, 95 pt replacement on the UFA market ... which I don't recall seeing very often

I think we all understand your position by now.
#6
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: Reilly To The Wing
June 12, 2024, 11:48:55 AM
Quote from: Dappleganger on June 12, 2024, 11:25:29 AMIdle offseason talk... If the idea is to turn Rielly into a forward I'd suggest going the trade route.

Yup. You know you're in the doldrums when...
#7
Quote from: Joe on June 11, 2024, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 11, 2024, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on June 11, 2024, 10:55:38 AMSo I'll be honest, I haven't been paying very close attention to this because I think it's about 75% noise being caused by the media's desire for blood. This has fueled the fans to call for Marner's head on a spike. He wasn't incredible in the playoffs by any means but how he's the only one being thrown under the bus(other than Keefe) is beyond me.

I'm not saying "do not trade Marner in any circumstance" but I personally think that if the team is dealing from a spot of "but what if he walks away from the team for nothing standpoint" than they're not a team that is really interested in winning a championship.

Yup, it's all the media's fault.

Also I disagree. Poor asset management has put the Leafs where they are. Walking guys to free agency has put the Leafs where they are. You need assets in order to take big swings, and the Leafs have been bleeding assets for years.

Maybe I'm missing something but who did the leafs walk to free agency that led them to 'where they are now'?

Obviously it's not the reason, there's lots of reasons why the Leafs are where they are, but I don't buy the whole own rental idea and that we should hang on to expiring contracts (in this case Marner) or we're not serious about winning. Just off the top of my head we've walked Bozak, JVR, Barrie, Kerfoot etc.

I don't understand how worrying about assets walking for nothing means you aren't serious about winning. Is that how people feel if we don't use all our draft capital for rentals too?

*Edit I should probably rephrase my stance as the Leafs are where they are in large part due to poor asset management, of which walking guys to free agency is a subsection of that.
#8
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on June 11, 2024, 10:55:38 AMSo I'll be honest, I haven't been paying very close attention to this because I think it's about 75% noise being caused by the media's desire for blood. This has fueled the fans to call for Marner's head on a spike. He wasn't incredible in the playoffs by any means but how he's the only one being thrown under the bus(other than Keefe) is beyond me.

I'm not saying "do not trade Marner in any circumstance" but I personally think that if the team is dealing from a spot of "but what if he walks away from the team for nothing standpoint" than they're not a team that is really interested in winning a championship.

Yup, it's all the media's fault.

Also I disagree. Poor asset management has put the Leafs where they are. Walking guys to free agency has put the Leafs where they are. You need assets in order to take big swings, and the Leafs have been bleeding assets for years.
#9
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 09, 2024, 06:31:22 PM
Quote from: herman on June 09, 2024, 11:08:02 AMDeclarations aren't really persuasive arguments. We should also note that we've really only seen Marner in a playstyle that was literally designed to be give Marner the puck. However good Marner plays, I think it's self-evident it does not match up with his expected asking price and barely even matches his current cap hit.

cw had the stats but I believe Marner has better numbers overall than Nylander, yes?  Including playoffs.  Maybe I'm wrong about that but if not he deserves to make more than Nylander.

In any event, no, it is not self-evident.  That declaration isn't persuasive.

This is how we got into cap hell in the first place. "I want to make more the X player on our team", while I understand it, is probably not the greatest thing to have within you dressing room.

Also just points don't tell the whole story as we know. One of them has scored double the others goals in the playoffs.
#10
Quote from: herman on June 09, 2024, 12:45:18 PMhttps://twitter.com/tlndc/status/1799837531024109588
Dangle the bait; and the other team probably has to put a good foot forward re: extension $. Some kookoo bananas cap floor team should definitely throw out 15M AAV.

Hypothetically they should be open to trading anybody.
#11
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 08, 2024, 10:24:57 PMLosing Marner will not make us a better team.  I hope he can get past all this BS and re-sign.

Clearly there is debate and discussion as to whether that's true or not. We are in a cap constrained world and everything is a series of trade offs. The team might be better or it might be worse based on a lot of different variables. That's reality.
#12
Quote from: Dappleganger on June 07, 2024, 12:01:47 PM
Quote from: Zee on June 07, 2024, 11:59:04 AM
Quote from: Dappleganger on June 07, 2024, 08:15:23 AMYetis... the plural of Yeti is Yetis. How did they get this wrong?


What's the plural of Leaf?

Leafs, obviously...

😅


Nerd Alert: It actually is grammatically correct, as we're talking about members in a regiment and not actual tree leaves.
#13
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 06, 2024, 11:37:27 AMhttps://twitter.com/TheFourthPeriod/status/1798748942701932723

I've decided to officially back Outlaws since they aren't using the plural of Mammoths for some reason. Just Mammoth sounds odd.

Blizzard, Yeti and Outlaw are all fine, but none are very iconic sounding names.
#14
Quote from: Zee on June 07, 2024, 11:56:48 AMIt's kind of ridiculous they waited an entire week to start this series, this isn't the SuperBowl one game winner take all, why the hell hasn't this series started already?  NHL doing NHL things again.

I heard it was more dictated by TV availability etc. more than anything.
#15
Quote from: cw on June 05, 2024, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 05, 2024, 08:16:59 PM
Quote from: cw on June 05, 2024, 07:55:09 PM
Quote from: herman on June 05, 2024, 05:09:38 PMJust to contrast a similar situation (but different context of course)

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4845197/2023/09/08/maple-leafs-matthews-nylander-treliving/
QuoteUp next, Treliving hopes, is William Nylander, who is entering the final year of his contract before potentially becoming an unrestricted free agent. Treliving tried to install urgency in those talks back in June, stressing the importance of getting a quick resolution, but so far, that extension has proved elusive.

"Willy is a really important player and a really good player, and we want to get him done, too," the Leafs GM said. "That's next on the list."

So where is that negotiation now?

"I'm not going to get into the play-by-play of it other than to say he's a very good player and you always want to keep the good players," Treliving said. "And he's told me he wants to be in Toronto. That's the most important thing. If there's a desire on both sides, then you should be able to come to an agreement.

"But these things take time. They're all their own independent deals, and they have their own ebbs and flows."

The front office did check the market on Nylander's value around the league but didn't like the return offers and weren't willing to lose the deal.

There was a pretty significant difference: "Player submits a 10 team no trade list."
They didn't need Nylander's permission to talk with or trade him to 21 other teams.
They didn't like the return after 21 teams looked him over.

The best case with Marner would be getting his agreement to speak with what would likely be a considerably smaller number of teams (if any) after he's already declared that he wants to remain in Toronto. So the team that potentially trades for him would know that and would do so knowing they're not his first choice and that he's half being run out of Toronto by fans and media. So they're going to pay a King's ransom for him? I don't think that is very likely. The very fact that the Leafs would entertain dealing him devalues him as it probably did Nylander.

I disagree with the tenets there. I do think they need to tread carefully but there is such a thing as persuasion. People can be lured and it happens all the time. How does that devalue him? What devalues him is inability to pit many teams against each other in a bidding war.


"How does that devalue him?"

"We're trying to win a Cup and we don't need Mitch Marner to get us to the promised land. What will you give us for him?"

Why not trade Matthews? He's taking up more cap space and has a lower ppg in the playoffs.
How about McDavid?
Those guys are not in the conversation because their teams feel they're core to their aspirations.

When a player becomes tradeable, under these circumstances, their value drops. The team that has had him for 8 years doesn't think he's critical to their Cup aspirations anymore. How can it be taken any other way?

Yes, fewer teams bidding also helps to keep the talent return in a trade lower.
But the above has an impact on his trade value as well.

"Persuasion"? In this circumstance, where Marner is on record as wanting to remain in Toronto and his agent has stated that he's firmly set on starting the season in Toronto? And his agent wants him to test free agency? He already has a big, fat line in the sand. He is so dead set, he's not entertaining extension or trade before the start of the season. Treliving will be trying to persuade someone who doesn't want to talk about it. Good luck with that.

Marner and his agent know that if he starts the season with the Leafs, it is really tough to move his big cap hit and tough to get thru the deadline doing that with any hopes of doing much in the playoffs. So they're setting the table for the Leafs to decide next summer "Do you want to lose Marner for nothing?"

I think we're on the same page when it comes to the overall situation devaluing Marner, but I think we disagree on the magnitude of effect and what are the bigger and lesser factors. Obviously I think having an NMC "devalues" a player because he can't be traded unless he's willing to walk, which may or may not happen.

My main point of contention though is your point that just having a player on the trade block devalues a player. I get what you're saying but I just don't completely buy it. A player being made available for a trade more or less acknowledges you need to make changes as a team for various reasons, not that this player is a bad player that should be valued less. By that logic any higher tier player is devalued if they're on the trading block and I just disagree with that entirely (or at least in the way I'm reading it/magnitude of the effect) and frankly I don't have the energy to argue the case anymore because I think it should be obvious that players, trades, their value etc. goes beyond simple a then b logic. In any case you know my stance, I know yours, I'll agree to disagree and move on.