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Some stats for those of you upset by Canada's WJC showing

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ontariojames:
Because of the U.S.A.'s strong showings and impressive rosters at the WJC's recently, there's been a lot of talk about how the U.S.A. is catching up to Canada in developing high level hockey players and how they're developing high level  players in more states now and I've even heard it suggested that 10 years from now the U.S. might surpass Canada in developing high level hockey players.  Well I decided to actually look over the NHL's drafts of the last five years to see  how close the U.S. actually was to Canada in developing high level players and I was very surprised to see just how not close it still was. In the last five years Canada has 31 top ten draft picks to the U.S.'s 4, yes that's right, the U.S only has 4 top ten picks in the last five years. Canada has 75 first rounders to the U.S's 29.

I don't want to take the fun out of these tournaments for people, but they don't mean anything. Whether Canada wins or loses, they are still by FAR the best country at developing high level hockey players, it's not even close.

Deleted Account:
They just can't put the best teams together.

Nik:

--- Quote from: ontariojames on January 06, 2013, 06:30:02 PM ---Because of the U.S.A.'s strong showings and impressive rosters at the WJC's recently, there's been a lot of talk about how the U.S.A. is catching up to Canada in developing high level hockey players and how they're developing high level  players in more states now and I've even heard it suggested that 10 years from now the U.S. might surpass Canada in developing high level hockey players.  Well I decided to actually look over the NHL's drafts of the last five years to see  how close the U.S. actually was to Canada in developing high level players and I was very surprised to see just how not close it still was. In the last five years Canada has 31 top ten draft picks to the U.S.'s 4, yes that's right, the U.S only has 4 top ten picks in the last five years. Canada has 75 first rounders to the U.S's 29.

I don't want to take the fun out of these tournaments for people, but they don't mean anything. Whether Canada wins or loses, they are still by FAR the best country at developing high level hockey players, it's not even close.

--- End quote ---

That strikes me as kind of meaningless because, to me, at least you're not really addressing the two major points you're supposedly refuting. For one, you're using draft position as the barometer of player development as opposed to, say, performance in the NHL and more importantly you're not addressing whether or not the number as a whole is increasing.

People are saying "catching up", not "caught up" and considering how they're playing at the WJC it seems like they have a pretty strong case to make.

ontariojames:

--- Quote from: Nik V. Debs on January 06, 2013, 07:03:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: ontariojames on January 06, 2013, 06:30:02 PM ---Because of the U.S.A.'s strong showings and impressive rosters at the WJC's recently, there's been a lot of talk about how the U.S.A. is catching up to Canada in developing high level hockey players and how they're developing high level  players in more states now and I've even heard it suggested that 10 years from now the U.S. might surpass Canada in developing high level hockey players.  Well I decided to actually look over the NHL's drafts of the last five years to see  how close the U.S. actually was to Canada in developing high level players and I was very surprised to see just how not close it still was. In the last five years Canada has 31 top ten draft picks to the U.S.'s 4, yes that's right, the U.S only has 4 top ten picks in the last five years. Canada has 75 first rounders to the U.S's 29.

I don't want to take the fun out of these tournaments for people, but they don't mean anything. Whether Canada wins or loses, they are still by FAR the best country at developing high level hockey players, it's not even close.

--- End quote ---

That strikes me as kind of meaningless because, to me, at least you're not really addressing the two major points you're supposedly refuting. For one, you're using draft position as the barometer of player development as opposed to, say, performance in the NHL and more importantly you're not addressing whether or not the number as a whole is increasing.

People are saying "catching up", not "caught up" and considering how they're playing at the WJC it seems like they have a pretty strong case to make.

--- End quote ---
What are the odds that those 75 players, including 31 top ten players, aren't going be much more successful in general in the NHL than the 29 players, with only 4 top ten players? It's just common sense.

But just to drive home the point in case you have a response to that, Canadian star players or players who have shown they have the potential to be stars in that five year span: Stamkos, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Myers, Eberle, Tavares, Duchene,Hall,Kane, Seguin,Skinner,RNH

USA: Gardiner,Fowler,Carlson,Leddy

Not only is the Canadian list much bigger, but much better in quality.

Secondly, if people are going to make it a point to talk about how the US is catching up to Canada, I would expect it to be closer than it is, not the complete landslide it still is. When there's still that huge of a difference, I don't see the point in making that comment.

Nik:

--- Quote from: ontariojames on January 06, 2013, 07:52:51 PM ---What are the odds that those 75 players, including 31 top ten players, aren't going be much more successful in general in the NHL than the 29 players, with only 4 top ten players? It's just common sense.
--- End quote ---

Well, leaving aside that conclusions are better drawn from actual facts as opposed to "common sense", you still seem to be missing the point. The Americans have had 20 or so 1st round draft picks in the last three years. That still trails Canada, sure, but it's certainly a sign that they're improving. As is, undeniably, their improved showings at the WJC.


--- Quote from: ontariojames on January 06, 2013, 07:52:51 PM ---Secondly, if people are going to make it a point to talk about how the US is catching up to Canada, I would expect it to be closer than it is, not the complete landslide it still is. When there's still that huge of a difference, I don't see the point in making that comment.

--- End quote ---

Catching up really just means making progress and I think it's pretty clear that they are.

More to the point though, I don't really know that anything you've shown highlights either countries strength at development as opposed to just reflecting the relative popularity of the game in the two countries. Canada is essentially unique in the world in that hockey is the unquestioned #1 sport in terms of popularity, which gives it the most players and makes it the biggest draw for the country's best athletes. All of the European countries probably have at least an even split with soccer and hockey, in the States, is probably 5th or 6th down the list. Saying that Canada has produced many more first round draft picks doesn't really, to my mind, reflect that players in this country are particularly well developed(And Malcolm Gladwell in Outliers makes a pretty convincing argument that they're not) but rather that Canada has the most hockey players and most entrenched/traditional model by which players are developed.

So when people praise the way USA hockey is developing hockey players they may mean it to be less in an outcome driven sense and more in a procedural sense, wherein the number of top tier young players the USA is producing is very good considering what they have to work with in terms of their player pool in the first place.

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