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Just for Fun => Ok Blue Jays Talk => Topic started by: Deebo on November 16, 2021, 10:24:51 AM

Title: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on November 16, 2021, 10:24:51 AM
Let's start off the 2022 thread with some big news.

https://twitter.com/bnicholsonsmith/status/1460615689471934464
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 16, 2021, 10:30:58 AM

https://twitter.com/bnicholsonsmith/status/1460615689471934464
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 16, 2021, 10:32:33 AM

Well, considering the price they paid for him they were definitely going to be looking to lock him up and this is pretty reasonable all things considered. A front of the rotation starter locked up for his entire prime at a reasonable number is a pretty big win for the club.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 16, 2021, 10:50:32 AM
That's a pretty solid contract for both sides.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on November 16, 2021, 10:50:35 AM
Honestly, great news.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 16, 2021, 10:52:30 AM
Great move.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 16, 2021, 11:18:22 AM

So the deal apparently has some escalators and an opt-out clause after year 5 but, quite frankly, if he's good enough for length of the deal to the point where he thinks opting out at 33 is a win for him that's fine.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on November 18, 2021, 02:52:24 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 16, 2021, 11:18:22 AM

So the deal apparently has some escalators and an opt-out clause after year 5 but, quite frankly, if he's good enough for length of the deal to the point where he thinks opting out at 33 is a win for him that's fine.

The salary escalates for the years after the opt out.


https://twitter.com/ShiDavidi/status/1461407449924186127


Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 24, 2021, 01:52:36 PM

So Steven Matz won't be coming back. He signed what is a pretty reasonable deal in terms of dollars(11 million per) but it's 4 years which seems like a long time to commit to a guy who hasn't put together two real solid years in a row yet.

I'm fine with the Jays not matching and was pretty lukewarm on bringing back Matz regardless(Ray and Gray for the Jays!) but I wonder if ultimately not qualifying Matz was a mistake. There seemed to be enough interest in him that either the Jays would get him for the one year at 18 million(a lot of money but low risk) or he'd turn it down and the Jays would have gotten the pick. Not a big deal either way but something to think about.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on November 24, 2021, 02:44:12 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 24, 2021, 01:52:36 PM

So Steven Matz won't be coming back. He signed what is a pretty reasonable deal in terms of dollars(11 million per) but it's 4 years which seems like a long time to commit to a guy who hasn't put together two real solid years in a row yet.

I'm fine with the Jays not matching and was pretty lukewarm on bringing back Matz regardless(Ray and Gray for the Jays!) but I wonder if ultimately not qualifying Matz was a mistake. There seemed to be enough interest in him that either the Jays would get him for the one year at 18 million(a lot of money but low risk) or he'd turn it down and the Jays would have gotten the pick. Not a big deal either way but something to think about.

The only thing about qualifying Matz is that I think he probably takes that 18 million QO. 

The equivalent of money for him would be 3 years @ 8 million and that's the kind of contract pretty mediocre pitchers get. 

If the Jays say bring back Ray and sign a guy like Gaussman they did the right thing.  If we don't strike in free agency and Stripling/Pearson is our 5th starter the team made a mistake.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 24, 2021, 03:00:16 PM
Quote from: L K on November 24, 2021, 02:44:12 PM
The only thing about qualifying Matz is that I think he probably takes that 18 million QO. 

You think? Even if 40+ million is on the table?

Anyway, I think you're right that ultimately what they do otherwise to address the pitching is more important. I'd love to see the Jays sign Seiya Suzuki and then go see what Gurriel/Kirk could land them in a trade from Miami or Oakland.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 24, 2021, 04:00:20 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 24, 2021, 01:52:36 PM

So Steven Matz won't be coming back. He signed what is a pretty reasonable deal in terms of dollars(11 million per) but it's 4 years which seems like a long time to commit to a guy who hasn't put together two real solid years in a row yet.

I'm fine with the Jays not matching and was pretty lukewarm on bringing back Matz regardless(Ray and Gray for the Jays!) but I wonder if ultimately not qualifying Matz was a mistake. There seemed to be enough interest in him that either the Jays would get him for the one year at 18 million(a lot of money but low risk) or he'd turn it down and the Jays would have gotten the pick. Not a big deal either way but something to think about.

A QO definitely changes the market on him. Are teams still willing to give him that kind of money if they need to give up a pick as part of it? Does he take a one year pay day and bet on himself for next winter? With the impending lockout, is that even a smart move? Really hard to tell.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on November 24, 2021, 04:51:39 PM
I didn't want Matz at $18.9m. Especially if it impeded the Jays ability to sign Max Scherzer.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 24, 2021, 07:03:53 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on November 24, 2021, 04:00:20 PM
A QO definitely changes the market on him. Are teams still willing to give him that kind of money if they need to give up a pick as part of it? Does he take a one year pay day and bet on himself for next winter? With the impending lockout, is that even a smart move? Really hard to tell.

You're probably right, I just am a little surprised he got a 4 year deal. It feels weird to me that you'd like Matz enough to give him 4 years/44 or like him enough to throw a twitter fit about him signing elsewhere like the Mets owner did but hold out at also throwing in a 2nd round pick.

Eh, no big loss either way.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 24, 2021, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on November 24, 2021, 04:51:39 PM
I didn't want Matz at $18.9m. Especially if it impeded the Jays ability to sign Max Scherzer.

I would be shocked if Scherzer signed anywhere off the West Coast. Really, I doubt he signs outside of LA.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 28, 2021, 05:56:24 PM

Semien to the Rangers for 7 years. Shoot.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 28, 2021, 06:08:34 PM
[emoji58]
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on November 28, 2021, 06:25:37 PM
7 years is nuts for Semien especially as he's still getting 25M per year.

Still it sucks to see him go.  They added a bullpen arm and extended Berrios but the early returns on the off-season aren't great.  It sounds like Gaussman is playing the Jays to get more money out west.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 28, 2021, 07:40:39 PM
Sucks but 7 years is insane. It's nice to see other teams have to add those extra years to land a big name.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on November 28, 2021, 10:02:10 PM
https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1465138818932260871
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 28, 2021, 10:18:40 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.
Really hoping we can keep Ray. Jays weren't far off from being a good team but losing Semien and Ray feels like that would be pretty tough...
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:23:59 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 28, 2021, 10:18:40 PMReally hoping we can keep Ray. Jays weren't far off from being a good team but losing Semien and Ray feels like that would be pretty tough...

Maybe. But adding Gausman and the picks for Semien/Ray would not be a terrible outcome either.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on November 28, 2021, 10:24:42 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 28, 2021, 10:18:40 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.
Really hoping we can keep Ray. Jays weren't far off from being a good team but losing Semien and Ray feels like that would be pretty tough...

Don't worry they still are a good team. Gausman is comparable to Ray and they will add another infield bat and probably more pitching.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on November 28, 2021, 10:34:10 PM
https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1465146120116609027
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 29, 2021, 01:17:01 PM

Wow, Scherzer to the Mets for 3 years/130 million.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 29, 2021, 02:20:51 PM
Jays have signed a bunch of dudes... What do we think?

https://www.thescore.com/s/19974617
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 29, 2021, 02:59:37 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 29, 2021, 01:17:01 PM

Wow, Scherzer to the Mets for 3 years/130 million.

Front end of the Mets rotation is going to be something.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 29, 2021, 03:00:13 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 02:20:51 PM
Jays have signed a bunch of dudes... What do we think?

https://www.thescore.com/s/19974617

Phelps could be a useful piece in the bullpen if he's healthy. The rest? A hearty meh.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on November 29, 2021, 03:41:12 PM
To bad about Semien, I guess Ray is gone as well.  Time for one of our prospects to step up not named Manoah.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:26:56 PM
And it's official. Ray is gone. Ugh.

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1465414756844638216?s=20

Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 29, 2021, 04:35:15 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?
Both are similar but I think the Jays did great signing Gausman and he wanted to come here....doesn't sound like ray did ad that's why the Jays moved on.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/analysis/blue-jays-free-agency-ace-gausman-ray
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:49:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on November 29, 2021, 04:35:15 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?
Both are similar but I think the Jays did great signing Gausman and he wanted to come here....doesn't sound like ray did ad that's why the Jays moved on.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/analysis/blue-jays-free-agency-ace-gausman-ray

Yeah, I mean if they went for similar $ I don't see why we wouldn't sign Ray unless he specifically didn't want to resign.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 29, 2021, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:49:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on November 29, 2021, 04:35:15 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?
Both are similar but I think the Jays did great signing Gausman and he wanted to come here....doesn't sound like ray did ad that's why the Jays moved on.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/analysis/blue-jays-free-agency-ace-gausman-ray

Yeah, I mean if they went for similar $ I don't see why we wouldn't sign Ray unless he specifically didn't want to resign.
Just reading that article/opinion, I would say the Jays got the better pitcher.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 29, 2021, 05:08:57 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?

Very - right down to last season being potentially fluke seasons. But at least Gausman spent years in the AL east. Knows what he's getting into. And apparently the Jays went hard after him last years but he had reservations with the Jays having no home field.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 29, 2021, 05:10:41 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:49:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on November 29, 2021, 04:35:15 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?
Both are similar but I think the Jays did great signing Gausman and he wanted to come here....doesn't sound like ray did ad that's why the Jays moved on.

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/analysis/blue-jays-free-agency-ace-gausman-ray

Yeah, I mean if they went for similar $ I don't see why we wouldn't sign Ray unless he specifically didn't want to resign.

You can also look at it as the Jays got a very similar player and a draft pick. So in a way they're kind of ahead? Either way I see Ray and Gausman as a wash. Neither are the ace of this staff. That's Berrios.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 29, 2021, 05:20:02 PM
Even without Ray, the Jays have the makings of a pretty solid rotation. Ryu, Berrios, Gausman, Manoah, and Stripling/Pearson/another addition is a pretty good group. Being able to retain Ray would have been great, but replacing him with Gausman isn't much of a downgrade in terms of reasonable expected performance.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Guilt Trip on November 29, 2021, 05:38:13 PM
According to Steve Phillips, the Jays offered 5 x 110mill. Ray's camp was playing it that they were getting more from someone else, so they were bluffing. They were also going to wait until Dec 1 to sign and were slow playing it. Jays didn't want to wait and moved on to plan B before Gausman signed somewhere else.
Smart move to get 1 of them. Gasman isn't much of a drop, if at all.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 29, 2021, 05:51:53 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?

I think so. Especially when you factor in the draft pick. In a perfect world would I have taken Ray over Gausman at these respective deals? Maybe. But there certainly isn't a huge difference and I understand why someone might lean the other way in thinking Gausman has a lot of room for improvement under Pete Walker whereas we already saw what Walker could do for Ray.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 29, 2021, 05:52:40 PM

Rangers going wild. Have signed Corey Seager for 10 years, 325 million. I guess that means they keep Semien at 2B?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on November 29, 2021, 06:47:33 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 29, 2021, 05:52:40 PM

Rangers going wild. Have signed Corey Seager for 10 years, 325 million. I guess that means they keep Semien at 2B?

I don't like the length of the Semien contract but this Seager contract is pure batshit insane
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Andy on November 29, 2021, 06:51:48 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 29, 2021, 05:51:53 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 29, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 28, 2021, 10:05:51 PM

Wow. Not sure if this closes the door on Ray but that's a solid addition to the rotation at a pretty reasonable price.

Ray just went for $115M/5yrs. Is Gausman comparable?

I think so. Especially when you factor in the draft pick. In a perfect world would I have taken Ray over Gausman at these respective deals? Maybe. But there certainly isn't a huge difference and I understand why someone might lean the other way in thinking Gausman has a lot of room for improvement under Pete Walker whereas we already saw what Walker could do for Ray.

I think, though, that the opt-out after the 3rd year on Ray's deal makes Gausman's more desirable. If Ray proves he's an ace, he's 100% gone in 3 years; if Gausman pans out, we still get him for all 5. The only way Seattle gets Ray for all 5 is if he pitches poorly and/or gets injured.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 29, 2021, 07:01:10 PM
Quote from: Andy on November 29, 2021, 06:51:48 PM
I think, though, that the opt-out after the 3rd year on Ray's deal makes Gausman's more desirable. If Ray proves he's an ace, he's 100% gone in 3 years; if Gausman pans out, we still get him for all 5. The only way Seattle gets Ray for all 5 is if he pitches poorly and/or gets injured.

Sure but that's mitigated a bit, I think, by the idea that these guys both might be good for the first few years of their deal and then less effective in the later years in which case the Ray scenario isn't so bad. Add in the devil you know factor and I can make an argument either way. Regardless, I'm not complaining. I think Gausman could be really good.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 29, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Quote from: L K on November 29, 2021, 06:47:33 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 29, 2021, 05:52:40 PM

Rangers going wild. Have signed Corey Seager for 10 years, 325 million. I guess that means they keep Semien at 2B?

I don't like the length of the Semien contract but this Seager contract is pure batshit insane

The thing about these huge 10 year, 250+ million dollar deals is just that, like, none of them seem smart or like they work out. Even the Mike Trout deal you have to wonder about now that he's getting hurt a bit. Guys like Betts or Lindor or Machado are all great players but do you really want those deals now? Even Harper after winning the MVP, it still seems like a crazy risk.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 29, 2021, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 29, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Quote from: L K on November 29, 2021, 06:47:33 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 29, 2021, 05:52:40 PM

Rangers going wild. Have signed Corey Seager for 10 years, 325 million. I guess that means they keep Semien at 2B?

I don't like the length of the Semien contract but this Seager contract is pure batshit insane

The thing about these huge 10 year, 250+ million dollar deals is just that, like, none of them seem smart or like they work out. Even the Mike Trout deal you have to wonder about now that he's getting hurt a bit. Guys like Betts or Lindor or Machado are all great players but do you really want those deals now? Even Harper after winning the MVP, it still seems like a crazy risk.

I see what you're saying and generally agree but I'd give bichette and Guerrero 10 year deals right now without blinking an eye. Different situations, I know.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 29, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 29, 2021, 07:47:45 PM
I see what you're saying and generally agree but I'd give bichette and Guerrero 10 year deals right now without blinking an eye. Different situations, I know.

That's fair. I think the only deal so far where a guy who wasn't close to free agency who got that length and money is Tatis(even the crazy Wander Franco deal the Rays just signed is only a max of 220 million) and the jury is very much out on that one.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 29, 2021, 11:04:29 PM
I'm still in shock over the scherzer contract. That's just lunacy.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:16:04 AM

Javy Baez to the Tigers for 6/140.

There are rumours that the Jays are looking at Chris Taylor and Kris Bryant, both of whom I think are pretty unexciting if you'd have to give them big term and money.

My dream scenario right now is the Jays sign someone like Yusei Kikuchi as a 5th starter and then put together a Lourdes Gurriel, Alejandro Kirk + prospects package to trade for either Jose Ramirez or Matt Chapman(or if it's Chapman maybe Chapman + a pitcher). Then sign someone at a reasonable price to replace Gurriel(Seiya Suzuki or Michael Conforto), bring up Moreno into Kirk's spot and use Espinal/Biggio at 2nd with a long term eye to that being the spot for Orelvis Martinez
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 30, 2021, 11:33:15 AM
I think Bryant could put up some huge numbers playing half the year at the Dome, but, the contract is definitely a concern there. Taylor would have to come on a reasonable short-term deal to be palatable.

I'm not super interested in Chapman, largely because I'm not really a "three true outcomes" guy, but he wouldn't be a terrible add. Ramirez would be great, but I think the acquisition cost is going to be higher than what you suggest. I think I'd prefer short-term, lower cost plays to shore up in the infield, with the outlook being for Groshans/Martinez taking over within a season or two.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on November 30, 2021, 11:33:15 AM
I think Bryant could put up some huge numbers playing half the year at the Dome, but, the contract is definitely a concern there. Taylor would have to come on a reasonable short-term deal to be palatable.

I'm not super interested in Chapman, largely because I'm not really a "three true outcomes" guy, but he wouldn't be a terrible add. Ramirez would be great, but I think the acquisition cost is going to be higher than what you suggest. I think I'd prefer short-term, lower cost plays to shore up in the infield, with the outlook being for Groshans/Martinez taking over within a season or two.

I think that makes a certain degree of sense but I can't help but think they should be making a push for immediate competitiveness with Vladdy/Bo in their cheap years. That said I think there are some guys like Kyle Seager who would be a good short term solution at 3B and someone like Nelson Cruz could be interesting if they want an everyday DH to replace some of Semien's offense.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 30, 2021, 11:47:39 AM
Cruz you will be 42 in July. I'm not sure he makes sense as a target.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on November 30, 2021, 11:50:05 AM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
I think that makes a certain degree of sense but I can't help but think they should be making a push for immediate competitiveness with Vladdy/Bo in their cheap years.

I agree, its time to go for it.

Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
That said I think there are some guys like Kyle Seager who would be a good short term solution at 3B and someone like Nelson Cruz could be interesting if they want an everyday DH to replace some of Semien's offense.

It doesn't seem like this front office likes to have a full time DH.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 30, 2021, 11:51:45 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 30, 2021, 11:47:39 AM
Cruz you will be 42 in July. I'm not sure he makes sense as a target.

He'd definitely be a one-year play, but, even at his age, he's a productive bat. That being said, I'm not sure using a roster spot on a pure DH is the right way to go. I think you look for someone who can at least fill in at 1B or in the OF.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:57:21 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 30, 2021, 11:47:39 AM
Cruz you will be 42 in July. I'm not sure he makes sense as a target.

The tailing off he did at the end of the year is for sure a concern but, I mean, he still hit pretty well at 41.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: Deebo on November 30, 2021, 11:50:05 AM
It doesn't seem like this front office likes to have a full time DH.

No, which is maybe the Chris Taylor thinking as a guy who can play everyday at a bunch of positions and let you rotate guys in the DH spot the way they've been doing. I always just feel that come playoff time you want your 9 guys who you like going with every day and you don't want to just throw your best bench bat in there.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 30, 2021, 12:12:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:57:21 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 30, 2021, 11:47:39 AM
Cruz you will be 42 in July. I'm not sure he makes sense as a target.

The tailing off he did at the end of the year is for sure a concern but, I mean, he still hit pretty well at 41.

I've had a bit of a change of heart on 1 dimensional players lately. I watched this video on what a liability a player like puljols is on the bases. Even if he can hit he's a black hole around the diamond.

https://youtu.be/OCiUaNIqmS4

Have a watch - I really like this channel, great informational baseball content.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 30, 2021, 12:18:25 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:59:52 AM
No, which is maybe the Chris Taylor thinking as a guy who can play everyday at a bunch of positions and let you rotate guys in the DH spot the way they've been doing. I always just feel that come playoff time you want your 9 guys who you like going with every day and you don't want to just throw your best bench bat in there.

Chris Taylor would definitely be the guy I'd target if the team is looking to fill this kind of role.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on November 30, 2021, 02:04:49 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?

Stroman is good. Issue with him is that he's an arrogant dick who is a legend in his own mind. But he's absolutely a legit strong starting pitcher.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on November 30, 2021, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: Deebo on November 30, 2021, 11:50:05 AM
It doesn't seem like this front office likes to have a full time DH.

No, which is maybe the Chris Taylor thinking as a guy who can play everyday at a bunch of positions and let you rotate guys in the DH spot the way they've been doing. I always just feel that come playoff time you want your 9 guys who you like going with every day and you don't want to just throw your best bench bat in there.

Yeah I don't really want to lock up the DH spot with a guy who can't play in the field.   I like the concept of Cruz if he was 2-3 years younger but I don't want to lock in a DH only player who could potentially be facing the sands of the time.

I do like the idea of Kikuchi as a reclamation kind of guy.  His peripherals weren't the best last year but he can eat some innings.

I like Taylor over Bryant if we are conceding to an inferior offence compared to last season.  I don't like his defense though we are considerably worse on the infield if Taylor is getting every day at bats.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?

Stroman has never had a year as good as Ray just had but what he has over Ray is consistency. If Ray was seen as a guy who was guaranteed to be at or near the level of his season last year he'd probably be closer to 5/150. Stroman probably won't be an upper echelon guy but he's basically a sure thing 2/3 which is more or less the kind of money Ray and Gausman got.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on November 30, 2021, 03:18:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?

Stroman has never had a year as good as Ray just had but what he has over Ray is consistency. If Ray was seen as a guy who was guaranteed to be at or near the level of his season last year he'd probably be closer to 5/150. Stroman probably won't be an upper echelon guy but he's basically a sure thing 2/3 which is more or less the kind of money Ray and Gausman got.

If Stroman volunteered to hand his twitter feed over to the team I wouldn't hate him back with the team.  He's a really good pitcher.   I don't want him for the character cloud he creates around himself but he is a solid pitcher at the front end of a rotation.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:26:38 PM
Quote from: L K on November 30, 2021, 03:18:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?

Stroman has never had a year as good as Ray just had but what he has over Ray is consistency. If Ray was seen as a guy who was guaranteed to be at or near the level of his season last year he'd probably be closer to 5/150. Stroman probably won't be an upper echelon guy but he's basically a sure thing 2/3 which is more or less the kind of money Ray and Gausman got.

If Stroman volunteered to hand his twitter feed over to the team I wouldn't hate him back with the team.  He's a really good pitcher.   I don't want him for the character cloud he creates around himself but he is a solid pitcher at the front end of a rotation.

Eh. I think with the money they already have in the rotation + Manoah + the hope that Pearson straightens things out(which may be wishful at this point) I almost feel like Stroman would be the wrong way to invest the 20+ million it'd take even if such a 2nd marriage were amenable to the parties involved.

Also, and I think this should be taken with a mountain of salt, but Carlos Baerga is saying the Jays are in the running for Freddie Freeman? On the surface it makes no sense whatsoever because of Vladdy but, like, there's maybe something in the way Freeman plays his international ball for Canada that makes him want to sign here?  It's 8 shades of crazy but Baerga has broken stuff before so...?

A slightly less crazy Freddy-related idea is if you're looking for a short term guy at 2nd, maybe Freddy Galvis comes back? I always liked him.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on November 30, 2021, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 29, 2021, 11:04:29 PM
I'm still in shock over the scherzer contract. That's just lunacy.

I was pushing the Jays sign Scherzer 2 years/$80m which I thought was high enough to get him.  ;D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 30, 2021, 03:37:37 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:26:38 PM
Also, and I think this should be taken with a mountain of salt, but Carlos Baerga is saying the Jays are in the running for Freddie Freeman? On the surface it makes no sense whatsoever because of Vladdy but, like, there's maybe something in the way Freeman plays his international ball for Canada that makes him want to sign here?  It's 8 shades of crazy but Baerga has broken stuff before so...?

Freeman would be a huge addition, but, how do they work with him and Vladdy? Rotating between 1B and DH? Does Vladdy move back to 3B (which I know he's expressed interest in doing in the past, but, feel like a bad idea)? Would be a good problem to have, though.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on November 30, 2021, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:26:38 PM
Quote from: L K on November 30, 2021, 03:18:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:02:43 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?

Stroman has never had a year as good as Ray just had but what he has over Ray is consistency. If Ray was seen as a guy who was guaranteed to be at or near the level of his season last year he'd probably be closer to 5/150. Stroman probably won't be an upper echelon guy but he's basically a sure thing 2/3 which is more or less the kind of money Ray and Gausman got.

If Stroman volunteered to hand his twitter feed over to the team I wouldn't hate him back with the team.  He's a really good pitcher.   I don't want him for the character cloud he creates around himself but he is a solid pitcher at the front end of a rotation.

Eh. I think with the money they already have in the rotation + Manoah + the hope that Pearson straightens things out(which may be wishful at this point) I almost feel like Stroman would be the wrong way to invest the 20+ million it'd take even if such a 2nd marriage were amenable to the parties involved.

Also, and I think this should be taken with a mountain of salt, but Carlos Baerga is saying the Jays are in the running for Freddie Freeman? On the surface it makes no sense whatsoever because of Vladdy but, like, there's maybe something in the way Freeman plays his international ball for Canada that makes him want to sign here?  It's 8 shades of crazy but Baerga has broken stuff before so...?

A slightly less crazy Freddy-related idea is if you're looking for a short term guy at 2nd, maybe Freddy Galvis comes back? I always liked him.

Yeah I saw that Freedman tweet and Baerga doesn't seem to just throw stuff at the walls. That would be a ridiculous addition to the line.  I guess the argument would be you platoon them at 1B/DH and maybe give Vlad some games at 3B.  If they don't think they can pull a big name corner INF and want to replace the offence they are losing with Semien this would be a home run addition.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on November 30, 2021, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on November 30, 2021, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 29, 2021, 11:04:29 PM
I'm still in shock over the scherzer contract. That's just lunacy.

I was pushing the Jays sign Scherzer 2 years/$80m which I thought was high enough to get him.  ;D

Yeah. The AAV doesn't seem too shocking. He's been the best pitcher in MLB over the past decade. What caught me off guard was the 3rd year for a guy who is already 37 (and will turn 38 midway through next season) and has started to show some durability issues (albeit, minor ones so far).
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on November 30, 2021, 03:46:46 PM
Quote from: Bender on November 30, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
So I just did some reading and it's expected Marcus Stroman should get around Ray money. I don't recall Stroman being that good with the Jays?

Stroman is an elite pitcher. Same age as Robbie Ray, lower career ERA and higher career WAR than Robbie. Gotta keep in mind, no one expected this kind of year out of Robbie Ray, so that will drop his value a bit. Stoman has been pretty consistant throughout his career. As others have pointed out, he's a bit of a distraction.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on November 30, 2021, 03:53:52 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 30, 2021, 12:12:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on November 30, 2021, 11:57:21 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on November 30, 2021, 11:47:39 AM
Cruz you will be 42 in July. I'm not sure he makes sense as a target.

The tailing off he did at the end of the year is for sure a concern but, I mean, he still hit pretty well at 41.

I've had a bit of a change of heart on 1 dimensional players lately. I watched this video on what a liability a player like puljols is on the bases. Even if he can hit he's a black hole around the diamond.

https://youtu.be/OCiUaNIqmS4

Have a watch - I really like this channel, great informational baseball content.

So I finally got to watch this and you're right. It's a very good video that highlights the importance of something simple like running to 1st that we don't think much about.

The only thing I'd say is that I think the point being made about Pujols is that his lack of foot speed hurts his effectiveness, yes, but it's effectively captured by his stats. It's why his bWAR and wRC+ starts nosediving right around the time of those surgeries. That doesn't so much apply to Cruz, at least not yet. He's not the player he was but he's also not like Pujols who was effectively reduced to a replacement level player. Cruz has been at roughly 2 wins above replacement the last two seasons. Obviously there's a chance this is the year he hits the wall and becomes ineffective but it's also a pretty low-risk investment as you'd only be giving him a year.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on December 01, 2021, 08:33:13 PM

Stroman is a Cub, which is a surprise. I wasn't expecting them to spend any sort of big money in free agency as they really looked like they wanted to rebuild.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on December 01, 2021, 09:15:01 PM
Quote from: Nik on December 01, 2021, 08:33:13 PM

Stroman is a Cub, which is a surprise. I wasn't expecting them to spend any sort of big money in free agency as they really looked like they wanted to rebuild.

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1466213633923289093
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on December 02, 2021, 10:12:10 AM
And thus we enter the lockout.  Battle of the greedy millionaire players and the poor innocent owners
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on December 02, 2021, 12:52:56 PM
Quote from: L K on December 02, 2021, 10:12:10 AM
And thus we enter the lockout.  Battle of the greedy millionaire players and the poor innocent owners

What's crazy to me is that one of the big issues for the players is ending service time manipulation which is basically just getting owners to actually try to win games and that probably won't gain any traction among fans with GM brain who think keeping players in the minors when they could be helping the team is "smart".
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on December 02, 2021, 05:47:19 PM

Teams have literally taken all mention of current players off their websites:

https://www.mlb.com/bluejays (https://www.mlb.com/bluejays)

By the way, nobody anywhere is claiming that MLB is anything other than incredibly profitable and that franchise values are exploding.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on December 04, 2021, 11:04:17 AM
https://twitter.com/alek_manoah6/status/1466840425629687812
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 10, 2022, 02:46:06 PM
https://twitter.com/jon_bois/status/1491827863154302978
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 10, 2022, 04:29:07 PM
We have a CBA!

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1502015630966415361
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on March 10, 2022, 04:57:31 PM
https://twitter.com/realstevepaine/status/1501993543950381061
;D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 10, 2022, 05:05:18 PM
Next couple weeks gonna be crazy.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 10, 2022, 05:23:11 PM
26-12 vote in favour of the deal   (30 players and 8 MLB executives).  Would be interesting to see the breakdown of those votes at some point.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 10, 2022, 07:20:52 PM
Quote from: L K on March 10, 2022, 05:23:11 PM
26-12 vote in favour of the deal   (30 players and 8 MLB executives).  Would be interesting to see the breakdown of those votes at some point.

The 8 were the MLBPA Exec team, made up of Andrew Miller, Max Scherzer, Francisco Lindor, Marcus Semien,Zach Britton, James Paxton, Jason Castro, and Gerrit Cole.

All 8 execs + the players from NYY, NYM, HOU and STL voted no.

Owners vote is at 6:30

Edit: Owners vote 30-0 in favour
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 10, 2022, 10:45:54 PM

Unvaxxed players still can't play in Canada and they won't get paid or get service time for the games they miss.

I wonder how that affects who the Jays can go after.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 10, 2022, 11:45:43 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 10, 2022, 10:45:54 PM

Unvaxxed players still can't play in Canada and they won't get paid or get service time for the games they miss.

I wonder how that affects who the Jays can go after.

I wonder if it effects any current jays players
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on March 11, 2022, 02:17:17 PM
https://twitter.com/benwag247/status/1502303929375379459
Ah, the bootyful game
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 12, 2022, 03:07:23 PM
Rotation depth

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1502721758310318088
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on March 12, 2022, 03:17:19 PM
Quote from: Deebo on March 12, 2022, 03:07:23 PM
Rotation depth

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1502721758310318088
So he was an all star in 2021? I know nothing about this guy... anyone have any opinions on this?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 12, 2022, 03:44:44 PM
Quote from: Bender on March 12, 2022, 03:17:19 PM
Quote from: Deebo on March 12, 2022, 03:07:23 PM
Rotation depth

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1502721758310318088
So he was an all star in 2021? I know nothing about this guy... anyone have any opinions on this?

Middle of the rotation type. Inconsistent. When he's on, he's very good. If the Jays can work with him the same way they did Ray and Matz, he'll be an excellent add.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 12, 2022, 05:04:37 PM
He throws hard but has very inconsistent control and his pitches can be flat and hittable.   Not a terrible mid-back of rotation guy but you probably don't want him starting playoff games unless Walker unlocks something in his delivery. 


They still need a decent acquisition for the infield. 
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on March 12, 2022, 08:20:12 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 10, 2022, 10:45:54 PM

Unvaxxed players still can't play in Canada and they won't get paid or get service time for the games they miss.

I wonder how that affects who the Jays can go after.

This sort of gives the Jays some extra home field advantage if key opposing players are from the unvaccinated bucket
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on March 12, 2022, 11:06:30 PM
Quote from: L K on March 12, 2022, 05:04:37 PM
He throws hard but has very inconsistent control and his pitches can be flat and hittable.   Not a terrible mid-back of rotation guy but you probably don't want him starting playoff games unless Walker unlocks something in his delivery. 


They still need a decent acquisition for the infield.
So why was he an all star exactly?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 13, 2022, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Bender on March 12, 2022, 11:06:30 PM
Quote from: L K on March 12, 2022, 05:04:37 PM
He throws hard but has very inconsistent control and his pitches can be flat and hittable.   Not a terrible mid-back of rotation guy but you probably don't want him starting playoff games unless Walker unlocks something in his delivery. 


They still need a decent acquisition for the infield.
So why was he an all star exactly?

He had a good first half.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 13, 2022, 12:09:54 PM
Quote from: Deebo on March 13, 2022, 11:55:01 AM
Quote from: Bender on March 12, 2022, 11:06:30 PM
Quote from: L K on March 12, 2022, 05:04:37 PM
He throws hard but has very inconsistent control and his pitches can be flat and hittable.   Not a terrible mid-back of rotation guy but you probably don't want him starting playoff games unless Walker unlocks something in his delivery. 


They still need a decent acquisition for the infield.
So why was he an all star exactly?

He had a good first half.

So the Blue Jays got the Jack Campbell of pitching?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 13, 2022, 01:22:51 PM
https://twitter.com/jonheyman/status/1503030792896880641?s=24
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 14, 2022, 02:24:29 PM

I know he still doesn't make a ton of sense for the Jays but it looks like the Braves are out on Freddie Freeman. They got Matt Olson from the A's for their #1, #2, #7 and #14 prospects according to MLB.com.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 14, 2022, 02:45:35 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 14, 2022, 02:24:29 PM

I know he still doesn't make a ton of sense for the Jays but it looks like the Braves are out on Freddie Freeman. They got Matt Olson from the A's for their #1, #2, #7 and #14 prospects according to MLB.com.

The 5 years in age difference isn't insignificant between Olson and Freeman and Olson is a great acquisition but that's a lot of price to pay to replace a guy you are having walk in free agency.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 14, 2022, 05:36:16 PM
Not saying it will happen but the guy who broke the Berrios extension and the Semien deal last year is reporting the Jays are going to sign Freeman.....and then Vladdy liked the post
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 16, 2022, 08:33:12 AM
Jays acquire Matt Chapman.  This closes the door on Freeman.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 16, 2022, 09:08:29 AM
Phenomenal defensive play.  His offensive numbers slipped every year over the last 4 years though.

Kevin Smith is part of the package.  Will need to see the rest of it to judge how good of a deal this is but I like the acquisition.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 09:09:40 AM
Big + defensively and the team will have three full years control.

The issue will be if he can cut down the strikeouts a bit and raise the offense back to where he was a pre-2020. I guess the hope now, without knowing the cost, is that you maybe bought a little low and he won't cost an arm and a leg?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 09:35:34 AM

Apparently nobody from the opening day roster is included. My guess is Kevin Smith, Otto Lopez(Groshans?) and maybe someone like CJ Van Eyk. I think this is maybe a sign that Ramirez would have cost at least one of Moreno or Martinez and the Jays weren't willing to go there.



Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 09:45:10 AM

Kyle Schwarber to the Phillies, another guy the Jays were apparently in on to try and add some LH bats.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 09:45:51 AM
Great addition, depending on cost. Jays don't need him to be a huge offensive contributor - as long as he's an average to above average bat with plus defence, he represents a big upgrade for the roster.

Would have liked to see the team add a big LH bat instead, but this is still a potentially great move - and doesn't necessarily rule out potentially bringing in a LH outfielder or an upgrade elsewhere.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 10:02:14 AM
It's Chapman for Smith, Hoglund, Zach Logue and Kirby Snead.

That's...not a bad deal at all. The Jays #4, #9 and #27 prospects. Hoglund is the best of the bunch and our top pitching prospect(assuming we're not including Pearson) but he's not a top 100 guy and is still a few years away at least. Smith didn't have a spot so that's fine...hard not to read this as a major win.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 10:19:49 AM
Losing Hoglund hurts some. Logue/Snead likely have MLB back of the rotation/bullpen futures, which are replaceable, but decent pickups for the A's. Smith was pushed out by this deal, and isn't likely to be more than a utility guy any way. Definitely a win.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Arn on March 16, 2022, 10:38:27 AM
I feel like I'm going to succumb to giving mlb.tv a pile of money again soon now.

This team was very watchable last year, and I feel like it's probably improved on that...
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 16, 2022, 10:47:31 AM
I liked Hoglund and our pitching prospects are kind of sparse so that isn't great but Smith/Logue/Snead is really nothing to be upset about losing. 

Kevin Smith is up and down with his MiLB production and he's log jammed behind Bo/Biggio/Chapman on the infield.

The Jays do need a LHB in a bad way.

1. Springer CF - RHB
2. Bichette SS - RHB
3. Guerrero 1B - RHB
4. Hernandez RF - RHB
5. Gurriel LF - RHB
6. Chapman 3B - RHB
7. Grichuk DH - RHB
8. Biggio 2B - LHB
9. Jansen C - RHB

Bench: Kirk (RHB), Espinal (RHB)

Gosuke Katoh ??? LHB
Reese McGuire ??? LHB
Josh Palacios ??? LHB

Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:12:58 AM
Quote from: L K on March 16, 2022, 10:47:31 AMI liked Hoglund and our pitching prospects are kind of sparse so that isn't great

I think there are two things to keep in mind on that front. 1) The Jays do have Manoah, Berrios and Gausman locked up longterm so even if Pearson never becomes anything, there's time to add to the pitching depth in the system and 2) Because they didn't have to add Kirk or Groshans or even someone like Lopez in this deal, if they really need more pitching they still have the chips to make that happen.

Quote from: L K on March 16, 2022, 10:47:31 AM
The Jays do need a LHB in a bad way.

People are throwing Joey Vottos name out there and while not likely(I don't think he'd wave his NTC) it's not a crazy notion. Votto has two years left at 25 per but if you could work Grichuk into the deal it's down right reasonable.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 16, 2022, 11:16:01 AM
Not that I'm advocating for Votto but I really think he could be had for nothing in return.

The Chapman trade is great. It's quite reminiscent of the Donaldson trade.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 11:23:43 AM
If the Jays can move Grichuk, I think they're still in the Freeman conversation. You can rotate him and Guerrero between 1B and DH. I don't think it's likely, but its definitely workable.

A LH 4th outfielder seems like a no-brainer right now.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 16, 2022, 11:29:57 AM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:12:58 AM
Quote from: L K on March 16, 2022, 10:47:31 AMI liked Hoglund and our pitching prospects are kind of sparse so that isn't great

I think there are two things to keep in mind on that front. 1) The Jays do have Manoah, Berrios and Gausman locked up longterm so even if Pearson never becomes anything, there's time to add to the pitching depth in the system and 2) Because they didn't have to add Kirk or Groshans or even someone like Lopez in this deal, if they really need more pitching they still have the chips to make that happen.

Quote from: L K on March 16, 2022, 10:47:31 AM
The Jays do need a LHB in a bad way.

People are throwing Joey Vottos name out there and while not likely(I don't think he'd wave his NTC) it's not a crazy notion. Votto has two years left at 25 per but if you could work Grichuk into the deal it's down right reasonable.

Schwarber would have been perfect for that role.  DH/LF could probably do spot days at 1B but the Phillies got him.

Michael Conforto is still on the market.  LHB and plays the outfield.  Had a terrible first half last year but had good numbers the previous few years and had an ok post-ASB: .252/.347/.445/.792

Not a good fielder if he plays CF but is decent in RF and could still do spot starts to give Springer days off. 

You would have to move Grichuk in that scenario and that could be tough I guess.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1504114849906933767?t=NmHbp64sO3eqKFiBK-d5gw&s=08

I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Yankees fans on Twitter are complaining that the Jays team is too stacked and it's unfair that they have to compete in the same
Division as Toronto Tampa and Boston... YANKEES FANS! That cracked me up.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Who knows if it's accurate but apparently Buck Martinez was saying that Cleveland was asking for Manoah + Moreno for Ramirez so...no thanks.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on March 16, 2022, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Who knows if it's accurate but apparently Buck Martinez was saying that Cleveland was asking for Manoah + Moreno for Ramirez so...no thanks.

Enjoy Pearson + Moreno Guardians.  : ;D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 11:49:30 AM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Who knows if it's accurate but apparently Buck Martinez was saying that Cleveland was asking for Manoah + Moreno for Ramirez so...no thanks.

I'd do Kirk + Pearson (I'm no longer convinced he'll be a starter at the MLB level) and some other pieces, but Manoah and Moreno are basically non-starters.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 16, 2022, 11:56:18 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 11:49:30 AM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Who knows if it's accurate but apparently Buck Martinez was saying that Cleveland was asking for Manoah + Moreno for Ramirez so...no thanks.

I'd do Kirk + Pearson (I'm no longer convinced he'll be a starter at the MLB level) and some other pieces, but Manoah and Moreno are basically non-starters.

Kirk is almost hilariously overrated. I can't imagine any mlb team sees any value in him other than as a throw in.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on March 16, 2022, 12:04:32 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:56:18 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 11:49:30 AM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Who knows if it's accurate but apparently Buck Martinez was saying that Cleveland was asking for Manoah + Moreno for Ramirez so...no thanks.

I'd do Kirk + Pearson (I'm no longer convinced he'll be a starter at the MLB level) and some other pieces, but Manoah and Moreno are basically non-starters.

Kirk is almost hilariously overrated. I can't imagine any mlb team sees any value in him other than as a throw in.

I love Kirk's bat. I'd actually be upset if he's dealt. Prospects are such a crap shoot, shades of d'Arnaud in trading away Moreno for me. Yes, he might be great starting catcher for the next 10 years for the Guardians but the Jays would be getting Jose Freakin' Ramirez. Gotta give up something to get something. It'd be such a crazy good fit for the team, or trade for Ketel Marte instead.  ;D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:05:05 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 11:49:30 AM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 11:39:39 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
I doubt this will happen - but can you imagine if it did? This team would be ridiculous.

Who knows if it's accurate but apparently Buck Martinez was saying that Cleveland was asking for Manoah + Moreno for Ramirez so...no thanks.

I'd do Kirk + Pearson (I'm no longer convinced he'll be a starter at the MLB level) and some other pieces, but Manoah and Moreno are basically non-starters.

That's the thing for me. It's not even so much that it's a bad ask from Cleveland(but it is) but it's the sort of thing you ask for when you're not really interested in trading a guy at all. Like, Lindor was arguably more valuable and they didn't get anything close to that for him.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:08:59 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:56:18 AM
Kirk is almost hilariously overrated. I can't imagine any mlb team sees any value in him other than as a throw in.

Baseball America had him as the #70 prospect in Baseball last season and Baseball Prospectus had him at #101. His hitting numbers in the minors were terrific and in limited time last year he was an above league average bat at a premium position.

I think it's pretty safe to say he's fairly valuable.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 16, 2022, 12:14:11 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:08:59 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 11:56:18 AM
Kirk is almost hilariously overrated. I can't imagine any mlb team sees any value in him other than as a throw in.

Baseball America had him as the #70 prospect in Baseball last season and Baseball Prospectus had him at #101. His hitting numbers in the minors were terrific and in limited time last year he was an above league average bat at a premium position.

I think it's pretty safe to say he's fairly valuable.

He's pretty much a negative when he's on base. I don't like him. If they can spin him into something that's great but I won't miss him.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:26:52 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 12:14:11 PM
He's pretty much a negative when he's on base. I don't like him. If they can spin him into something that's great but I won't miss him.

He slashed .318/.416/.509 in the minors. That's going to have value no matter how slow a guy is.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 12:46:44 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:26:52 PM
He slashed .318/.416/.509 in the minors. That's going to have value no matter how slow a guy is.

Yup. His speed matters a lot less than that of the guys batting ahead of him. If he's creating opportunities for offence near that level, he's a valuable piece. The question is really about how much faith you have in him translating those numbers to the big league level, and I'm not completely sold on that.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 16, 2022, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 12:46:44 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:26:52 PM
He slashed .318/.416/.509 in the minors. That's going to have value no matter how slow a guy is.

Yup. His speed matters a lot less than that of the guys batting ahead of him. If he's creating opportunities for offence near that level, he's a valuable piece. The question is really about how much faith you have in him translating those numbers to the big league level, and I'm not completely sold on that.

If he hits a double he's not in scoring position.

Whatever. The Jays have him, if he does well great, but I'm not a fan.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 12:52:29 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 16, 2022, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 12:46:44 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:26:52 PM
He slashed .318/.416/.509 in the minors. That's going to have value no matter how slow a guy is.

Yup. His speed matters a lot less than that of the guys batting ahead of him. If he's creating opportunities for offence near that level, he's a valuable piece. The question is really about how much faith you have in him translating those numbers to the big league level, and I'm not completely sold on that.

If he hits a double he's not in scoring position.

Whatever. The Jays have him, if he does well great, but I'm not a fan.

Sure, but if that double drives in 2 runs, does that matter most of the time? So, he can't score on a softly hit single. Lots of guys can't - especially guys that play his position.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:55:13 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 12:46:44 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 16, 2022, 12:26:52 PM
He slashed .318/.416/.509 in the minors. That's going to have value no matter how slow a guy is.

Yup. His speed matters a lot less than that of the guys batting ahead of him. If he's creating opportunities for offence near that level, he's a valuable piece. The question is really about how much faith you have in him translating those numbers to the big league level, and I'm not completely sold on that.

Me either to be honest. But the 162 game average of just what he's done in the big leagues so far has him as, like, a 2-3 win player as is just on the strength of his bat. If he gets even a little better and can be a 25 double/25 HR catcher playing passable defense he's a very valuable piece.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 16, 2022, 02:43:26 PM
Kirk, Groshans, Gurriell+ another prospect or two not named Moreno or Martinez. I don't know if can get you Ramirez, but it can you something.

If they are actually still talking about Ramirez, that suggests they are still open to adding and impact player. I think a package like above can land you an something pretty good, if not Ramierez.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on March 16, 2022, 02:44:32 PM
Kirk would actually be a speed upgrade over the Guardians Austin Hedges.  ;D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on March 23, 2022, 01:33:09 PM
How do we feel about the bullpen?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on March 23, 2022, 02:57:11 PM
Quote from: Frank E on March 23, 2022, 01:33:09 PM
How do we feel about the bullpen?
I like it a lot, some good back up options if one or two go down with injury.  I have been very impressed with Bird as a LH hitter. Hope he sticks and stays healthy.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 23, 2022, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: Frank E on March 23, 2022, 01:33:09 PM
How do we feel about the bullpen?

A lot better than last season but it could always be improved.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on March 23, 2022, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 23, 2022, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: Frank E on March 23, 2022, 01:33:09 PM
How do we feel about the bullpen?

A lot better than last season but it could always be improved.

Thanks Joe.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 23, 2022, 09:50:31 PM
I feel mocked. Was that mockery? Was I mocked? Definitely sensing mockery.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 24, 2022, 01:33:28 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Feinsand/status/1507038855152783371?t=TfxMJIiL4I-TJHyKTBPVGA&s=08
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on March 24, 2022, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 23, 2022, 09:50:31 PM
I feel mocked. Was that mockery? Was I mocked? Definitely sensing mockery.

Sometimes thanks is just thanks...sometimes.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 24, 2022, 01:46:49 PM

The Jays traded Grichuk to Colorado for Raimel Tapia. I assume this is a cost saving move as Tapia is a pretty bad hitter and not very useful defensively. He's got some speed and is a lefty off the bench so it does add some elements, I guess.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on March 24, 2022, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 24, 2022, 01:33:28 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Feinsand/status/1507038855152783371?t=TfxMJIiL4I-TJHyKTBPVGA&s=08
Is this good or bad?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on March 24, 2022, 01:47:10 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 24, 2022, 01:33:28 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Feinsand/status/1507038855152783371?t=TfxMJIiL4I-TJHyKTBPVGA&s=08

I approve of this.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on March 24, 2022, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 24, 2022, 01:46:49 PM

The Jays traded Grichuk to Colorado for Raimel Tapia. I assume this is a cost saving move as Tapia is a pretty bad hitter and not very useful defensively. He's got some speed and is a lefty off the bench so it does add some elements, I guess.

Had the same fWAR as Grichuk last year.

But yeah, frees up money to bring in Ketel Marte.  ;D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 24, 2022, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on March 24, 2022, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 24, 2022, 01:46:49 PM

The Jays traded Grichuk to Colorado for Raimel Tapia. I assume this is a cost saving move as Tapia is a pretty bad hitter and not very useful defensively. He's got some speed and is a lefty off the bench so it does add some elements, I guess.

Had the same fWAR as Grichuk last year.

But yeah, frees up money to bring in Ketel Marte.  ;D

He is a career .280 hitter and hit .273 last year. Not a lot of power, but a 'bad hitter'?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 24, 2022, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 24, 2022, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on March 24, 2022, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 24, 2022, 01:46:49 PM

The Jays traded Grichuk to Colorado for Raimel Tapia. I assume this is a cost saving move as Tapia is a pretty bad hitter and not very useful defensively. He's got some speed and is a lefty off the bench so it does add some elements, I guess.

Had the same fWAR as Grichuk last year.

But yeah, frees up money to bring in Ketel Marte.  ;D

He is a career .280 hitter and hit .273 last year. Not a lot of power, but a 'bad hitter'?


Average isn't really used to evalute hitters any more. There are better stats that tell a more complete picture of a hitter. According to those, he's been a well below average hitter last season and the majority of his carreer.

Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 24, 2022, 02:28:50 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 24, 2022, 02:18:58 PM
He is a career .280 hitter and hit .273 last year. Not a lot of power, but a 'bad hitter'?

You're seeing a lot of Coors field there. His home/road splits are pretty typical for Rockies players. His career road slash line is .243/.285/.320
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 24, 2022, 02:41:22 PM

The Jays apparently also are getting a prospect in the deal, 19 year old Adrian Pinto.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 24, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: Deebo on March 24, 2022, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 24, 2022, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on March 24, 2022, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 24, 2022, 01:46:49 PM

The Jays traded Grichuk to Colorado for Raimel Tapia. I assume this is a cost saving move as Tapia is a pretty bad hitter and not very useful defensively. He's got some speed and is a lefty off the bench so it does add some elements, I guess.

Had the same fWAR as Grichuk last year.

But yeah, frees up money to bring in Ketel Marte.  ;D

He is a career .280 hitter and hit .273 last year. Not a lot of power, but a 'bad hitter'?


Average isn't really used to evalute hitters any more. There are better stats that tell a more complete picture of a hitter. According to those, he's been a well below average hitter last season and the majority of his carreer.

Yes his career WAR is quite low compared to Gruchuk and Nik pointed out his road stats are not great either.

They did want more lefties. Maybe Pinto makes the deal better, but seems a bit off for a win-now team.

Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on March 24, 2022, 03:12:47 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 24, 2022, 02:58:15 PM
They did want more lefties. Maybe Pinto makes the deal better, but seems a bit off for a win-now team.

I think it makes sense if you consider a few things. The Jays clearly want to give most of the DH at-bats to Kirk or Teoscar or spelling guys who need a day off. So if the Grichuk/Tapia role is mainly going to be a bench one, who gives you more versatility? Tapia's a lefty, can be used as a pinch runner and is probably roughly the same defensively.

There's also the question of whether or not Grichuk would be happy being a bench player.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on March 24, 2022, 03:33:10 PM
Basically this:

https://twitter.com/AndrewStoeten/status/1507067331721277451
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on March 24, 2022, 04:25:41 PM
*sniffle* but I liked Grichuk...
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on March 24, 2022, 04:30:14 PM
As a 4th outfielder/pinch runner type, Tapia is fine. He's not going to be much of a contributor, but he shouldn't be much of a hinderance, either. For a bench player, that's okay.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on March 24, 2022, 05:16:11 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 24, 2022, 04:30:14 PM
As a 4th outfielder/pinch runner type, Tapia is fine. He's not going to be much of a contributor, but he shouldn't be much of a hinderance, either. For a bench player, that's okay.

I think he rated out to average-to-above average defensively when playing in CF.  Has decent reads/routes to balls and has the speed to get to balls in the gap.  He's definitely a downgrade on Grichuk and I do think the Jays will miss April/May Grichuk who hits like an MVP before he falls off the map and becomes a profoundly underwhelming player the rest of the year.

I think the bigger thing is it gets the Jays a left handed bat for their 4th outfielder and frees up money for a guy who probably isn't going to get a lot of playing time between Kirk getting DH roles and hopefully using the DH role to give everyone else off-days.  That money will be better served when the Jays go shopping later in the year.

Personally I'm still excited for the changes Espinal made in terms of building muscle.  He has a good eye for getting the bat on the ball.  I know his numbers are small sample size but I think there is something there with him as a player. 
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on March 24, 2022, 05:30:06 PM
https://twitter.com/jonbecker_/status/1507084900494725129

Not really much savings

5.38 + 3.95 (Tapia) = 9.33 and Grichuk was at 10.4M  so only 1.1M in savings.

If they keep Tapia around next year, any more than 1M raise and its less savings next year.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on March 24, 2022, 08:56:41 PM
Quote from: LittleHockeyFan on March 24, 2022, 04:25:41 PM
*sniffle* but I liked Grichuk...

I think you liked looking at him more than you liked him as a player
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 26, 2022, 12:50:04 PM
https://twitter.com/rpandolfino/status/1507740316446691331

Ugh.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on March 26, 2022, 12:59:37 PM
Uh oh....I wonder what the Jays do here...
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on March 27, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
His attorney handles the legal, first infraction and the Jays let it slip away.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on April 03, 2022, 06:20:51 PM
https://twitter.com/gosukekatoh/status/1510740437291704326
This is the best
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 03, 2022, 07:37:02 PM
No more grocery store philandry. 

Reese McGuire traded to the White Sox for Zach Collins.

It's a catcher for catcher trade.  Not a terrible idea with the persistent Ramirez trade rumours.  Collins still has options so can go to AAA and if a trade does end up moving out Kirk you still have a backup catcher ready to go.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 03, 2022, 08:59:45 PM
Quote from: L K on April 03, 2022, 07:37:02 PM
No more grocery store philandry. 

Reese McGuire traded to the White Sox for Zach Collins.

It's a catcher for catcher trade.  Not a terrible idea with the persistent Ramirez trade rumours.  Collins still has options so can go to AAA and if a trade does end up moving out Kirk you still have a backup catcher ready to go.

You know, I get why Ramirez is so attractive and I'm still on board with trading for him provided it doesn't mean losing Moreno but if the Jays do end up landing him then I really think it would make the Chapman deal look weird. I know the idea is you move Ramirez to 2B but still, feels like trading your best P prospect for a guy who might end up as the second best 3B on your team is jumping the gun.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 03, 2022, 10:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nik on April 03, 2022, 08:59:45 PM
Quote from: L K on April 03, 2022, 07:37:02 PM
No more grocery store philandry. 

Reese McGuire traded to the White Sox for Zach Collins.

It's a catcher for catcher trade.  Not a terrible idea with the persistent Ramirez trade rumours.  Collins still has options so can go to AAA and if a trade does end up moving out Kirk you still have a backup catcher ready to go.

You know, I get why Ramirez is so attractive and I'm still on board with trading for him provided it doesn't mean losing Moreno but if the Jays do end up landing him then I really think it would make the Chapman deal look weird. I know the idea is you move Ramirez to 2B but still, feels like trading your best P prospect for a guy who might end up as the second best 3B on your team is jumping the gun.

I agree.  Beyond that I don't even think trading Martinez or Moreno makes sense at this point.  If Vlad looks anything like last year the Jays are probably best suited to sign him to a long extension in the next year or two.  The Jays might be better off holding on to those assets to fill in gaps in the next 2-3 years as they hit the Majors.  Biggio/Espinal isn't remotely equivalent to Ramirez but I wonder just how much the team is upgrade for that 1 year of Ramirez.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 04, 2022, 09:47:12 AM
They added one of the best defensive 3B in baseball with a good offensive track record, a position of need. They did this at very reasonable cost, despite including their best pitching prospect. At that time, it appeared that Cleveland was willing to go into the season with Ramirez on the roster so I understand why they would make the move for Chapman. Missing out on this deal, and then not being able to get Ramirez would have left a massive hole

Now there are reports that Cleveland will trade him if aren't able to sign him. If they have made that decision, it might make Ramirez available without including Morneo or Martinez. If none of the teams looking to acquire him are including a prospect of that calibre and Cleveland has decided to sell him, they may have to settle for less.

I agree that with the acquisition of Chapman, they shouldn't include one either of the 2 top prospects but I don't think the Jays have been willing to include one of those 2 in a deal because Cleveland probably would have accepted that by now.

If they are able to make a deal without them, then I think they should jump on the opportunity to add another MVP level bat to the line-up for 2 seasons.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 04, 2022, 10:28:03 AM
Quote from: Deebo on April 04, 2022, 09:47:12 AM
They added one of the best defensive 3B in baseball with a good offensive track record, a position of need. They did this at very reasonable cost, despite including their best pitching prospect. At that time, it appeared that Cleveland was willing to go into the season with Ramirez on the roster so I understand why they would make the move for Chapman. Missing out on this deal, and then not being able to get Ramirez would have left a massive hole.

Massive hole strikes me as a bit of an exaggeration. Going into the season with Espinal at 3B and Biggio at 2B wouldn't have been ideal but I still think the Jays have a very, very good lineup. Espinal, while you probably can't count on him to hit as well as he did last year, was not a bad minor league hitter and fielded the heck out of the position. He had a 2.5 bWAR in 92 games last year. I don't think duplicating that would be easy but the guy showed some potential to be a credible major league starter.

That said on the bigger picture we agree. If you can get Ramirez for a reasonable price, you get him. My only thing there is what if the Chapman deal has hamstrung you a bit there in terms of now the trade being contingent not only on Cleveland liking the prospects you offer but also getting Ramirez, a legit superstar, to agree to move to a position he hasn't really played in 5 years. Like I said, I'm with you in that if Ramirez is amenable and he doesn't cost Moreno(I could be talked into Martinez if it means keeping Groshans and/or Kirk) you make the deal but if Ramirez isn't up for moving to 2B you maybe lose the opportunity to add the better player.

If the reports of what Cleveland are offering Ramirez are correct it feels unlikely that Cleveland would have been like "We're not trading Jose for anything other than a massive, top tier package" two weeks ago then after Ramirez turns down two contracts that are way, way below market value they'd turn around and be open to getting a much lesser return. If they weren't serious about offering him a contract he'd reasonably accept I feel like they couldn't have been that firm in their demands for trading him earlier.

This isn't really a criticism and there's obviously a lot of ways things could shake out(Maybe Chapman is open to some time at 2B?) but it just feels like either the Guardians front office is wildly erratic or the situation could maybe have been better anticipated a bit by the Blue Jays with Espinal a not terrible fall back.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on April 04, 2022, 10:43:06 AM
Also worth keeping in mind that Ramirez is under team control until after to 2023 season, so, Cleveland isn't exactly under the gun to move him. If they aren't planning a complete teardown and rebuild, the price to acquire him will remain quite high until we get well into next season. The Guardians just have no reason to come down off their demands right now.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 04, 2022, 10:48:30 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on April 04, 2022, 10:43:06 AM
Also worth keeping in mind that Ramirez is under team control until after to 2023 season, so, Cleveland isn't exactly under the gun to move him. If they aren't planning a complete teardown and rebuild, the price to acquire him will remain quite high until we get well into next season. The Guardians just have no reason to come down off their demands right now.

I suppose but If Cleveland doesn't have real hopes of competing in the next two years the only thing holding onto Ramirez does is decrease his value. They waited until Lindor only had the one year left of team control and he was arguably more valuable than Ramirez and they got a package from the Mets that most people considered pretty lackluster.

You could hold onto him for a few months and hope some team gets desperate and offers the farm but that seems like a pretty big risk considering he could get hurt or have a bad start or something.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 04, 2022, 01:41:17 PM
Quote from: Nik on April 04, 2022, 10:28:03 AM
Massive hole strikes me as a bit of an exaggeration. Going into the season with Espinal at 3B and Biggio at 2B wouldn't have been ideal but I still think the Jays have a very, very good lineup. Espinal, while you probably can't count on him to hit as well as he did last year, was not a bad minor league hitter and fielded the heck out of the position. He had a 2.5 bWAR in 92 games last year. I don't think duplicating that would be easy but the guy showed some potential to be a credible major league starter.

Maybe a little dramatic sure, I'll say offensive question marks at 2B and 3B instead. I wouldn't have been comfortable going into the year with both Espinal and Biggio in everyday roles though. I think Chapman's floor is close to Espinal's ceiling and I liked getting more certainty than a potential credible starter at 2 positions.

Quote from: Nik on April 04, 2022, 10:28:03 AM
That said on the bigger picture we agree. If you can get Ramirez for a reasonable price, you get him. My only thing there is what if the Chapman deal has hamstrung you a bit there in terms of now the trade being contingent not only on Cleveland liking the prospects you offer but also getting Ramirez, a legit superstar, to agree to move to a position he hasn't really played in 5 years. Like I said, I'm with you in that if Ramirez is amenable and he doesn't cost Moreno(I could be talked into Martinez if it means keeping Groshans and/or Kirk) you make the deal but if Ramirez isn't up for moving to 2B you maybe lose the opportunity to add the better player.

Hoglund was the only legitimate prospect they included in the deal for Chapman. Not having Logue, Smith or Snead isn't going to impact the Jays ability to make another deal. I get the position change being a concern for a potential Ramirez deal, but I wouldn't be passing on a good deal because Cleveland may trade Ramirez and it may have been to the Jays. Chapman was there and at a good price, a bird in the hand and such.

If the position change ends up being a dealbreaker for Ramirez, they can move on to a different 2B target during the year should the Espinal/Biggio combination not work. They still have the assets they would have traded in a Ramirez deal to make it happen.

Quote from: Nik on April 04, 2022, 10:28:03 AM
If the reports of what Cleveland are offering Ramirez are correct it feels unlikely that Cleveland would have been like "We're not trading Jose for anything other than a massive, top tier package" two weeks ago then after Ramirez turns down two contracts that are way, way below market value they'd turn around and be open to getting a much lesser return. If they weren't serious about offering him a contract he'd reasonably accept I feel like they couldn't have been that firm in their demands for trading him earlier.

Cleveland easily could have been planning to move him all along if they didn't sign him but were telling teams that they were willing to go into the season with them in hopes of extracting more value. Then as their internal deadline approaches, they lessen thier demands. They could have been leaking that they were negotiating an extension to pressure teams who were persuing him.

There are quite a few possibilities as to why they accept less now than they would have a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on April 05, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
Pearson can't buy a break.

https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-blue-jays-nate-pearson-out-for-a-while-with-mono-1.1781118
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on April 05, 2022, 05:00:08 PM
Quote from: Frank E on April 05, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
Pearson can't buy a break.

https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-blue-jays-nate-pearson-out-for-a-while-with-mono-1.1781118
Ya I am starting to get the funny feeling about Pearson.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 06, 2022, 09:27:13 AM
https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1511695511954284553
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2022, 09:31:43 AM
Welp, onto Plan C I suppose

Edit: Although for what it's worth, I think the fact that the Padres had been rumoured to be in on the deal as much as the Jays says that it wasn't so much a case as the Jays pursuing a deal the Guardians were reluctant to make and then setting the price prohibitively high but rather the Guardians were looking to trade him but nobody was willing to come up with the price Cleveland was looking for.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 06, 2022, 10:00:01 AM
In a follow up tweet, Passan said that they were talking about trades with other teams and were prepared to move Ramirez if he didn't agree to an extension.

The full no trade clause and the relatively low AAV indicates that has no interest in moving so a trade was probably never going to happen. Ramirez was always going to extend and was just pushing for as much as he could before the season started.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2022, 10:14:14 AM
Quote from: Deebo on April 06, 2022, 10:00:01 AM
The full no trade clause and the relatively low AAV indicates that has no interest in moving so a trade was probably never going to happen. Ramirez was always going to extend and was just pushing for as much as he could before the season started.

I don't know about that. Getting the full NTC says to me more that if he was going to get traded he wants to say where.

Because I still don't see how this makes a ton of sense for Cleveland. Ramirez is 29 and they don't seem to be on the precipice of anything in particular. They had 5 guys on the MLB top 100 but nobody above #47. Are they realistically going to be challenging the White Sox and Twins before Ramirez is 31 or 32?

I wouldn't be shocked if we see Ramirez traded in a year or two, just to a place he wants to go.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 06, 2022, 12:58:06 PM
Quote from: Nik on April 06, 2022, 10:14:14 AM
I don't know about that. Getting the full NTC says to me more that if he was going to get traded he wants to say where.

Because I still don't see how this makes a ton of sense for Cleveland. Ramirez is 29 and they don't seem to be on the precipice of anything in particular. They had 5 guys on the MLB top 100 but nobody above #47. Are they realistically going to be challenging the White Sox and Twins before Ramirez is 31 or 32?

I wouldn't be shocked if we see Ramirez traded in a year or two, just to a place he wants to go.

I don't think taking this deal makes sense for Ramirez unless he wanted to stay and was told he'd be moved unless he agreed to an extension.

Yeah, he could eventually be traded (likely?), I meant that signing at these terms makes me believe he wasn't being traded before this season.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 07, 2022, 08:48:39 PM
Jays and Guardians make a deal:

https://twitter.com/CleGuardians/status/1512218709254975490

Glove first 4th OF, with some potentia to hit for some power, strikes out A LOT.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 08, 2022, 06:15:13 PM
https://twitter.com/CoreyBrockMLB/status/1512553709905006596

Huh.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on April 08, 2022, 07:29:04 PM
Mlb66.ir nice
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on April 08, 2022, 07:59:00 PM
An auspicious beginning :|
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on April 08, 2022, 08:32:18 PM
As a casual, this not good for making me more interested this year.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on April 08, 2022, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on April 08, 2022, 08:32:18 PM
As a casual, this not good for making me more interested this year.

Don't listen to this loser.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on April 08, 2022, 09:54:25 PM
Very Leafy, eh
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 08, 2022, 11:14:51 PM
A very funky win
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Arn on April 09, 2022, 03:14:02 AM
I think, no matter how the season turns out in terms of success, that last night is very much how it's going to be - a bit mad and very entertaining.

The way the batting lineup is, they're never really going to be out of a game.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on April 09, 2022, 08:56:39 AM
Quote from: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on April 08, 2022, 08:32:18 PM
As a casual, this not good for making me more interested this year.

(https://i.ibb.co/VqbwVxL/935-B9764-F203-4242-9-D1-C-6202006-B6278.gif)
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 09, 2022, 04:24:22 PM

Because it was discussed earlier, here's a ranking of everyone in the big leagues last year and their sprint speed:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sprint_speed_leaderboard (https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/sprint_speed_leaderboard)

While Kirk is obviously not fast, he's certainly not at the bottom either.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 12, 2022, 05:03:54 PM
https://twitter.com/jon_bois/status/1498705485956104194

I haven't yet watched, but this first episode is an hour, as are the remaining three episodes.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on April 12, 2022, 05:45:28 PM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.

Why do they have to call up a catcher?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 12, 2022, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Frank E on April 12, 2022, 05:45:28 PM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.

Why do they have to call up a catcher?

Because Kirk is too fat to play catcher every day and they can't have their backup catcher DH so they are carrying three catchers.  Jansen is hurt and will be out for "weeks"
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on April 13, 2022, 09:54:35 AM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Frank E on April 12, 2022, 05:45:28 PM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.

Why do they have to call up a catcher?

Because Kirk is too fat to play catcher every day and they can't have their backup catcher DH so they are carrying three catchers.  Jansen is hurt and will be out for "weeks"

Damn fat catchers.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on April 13, 2022, 10:02:58 AM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on April 12, 2022, 05:03:54 PM
https://twitter.com/jon_bois/status/1498705485956104194

I haven't yet watched, but this first episode is an hour, as are the remaining three episodes.

I would love to see some kind of campaign to get Stieb in the HOF. He was one of the best starters of the 80s, and I'd say easily top 5 pitchers of the decade, but that's holding him back? Wins. Which is a stupid metric for pitchers.

With all the advanced stats available, he is absolutely HOF worthy. Obviously I'm biased with him being my all time favourite Jays player, but I think it's a bit of a travesty that he isn't as celebrated as say, Jack Morris.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on April 13, 2022, 10:10:33 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on April 13, 2022, 10:02:58 AM
I would love to see some kind of campaign to get Stieb in the HOF. He was one of the best starters of the 80s, and I'd say easily top 5 pitchers of the decade, but that's holding him back? Wins. Which is a stupid metric for pitchers.

With all the advanced stats available, he is absolutely HOF worthy. Obviously I'm biased with him being my all time favourite Jays player, but I think it's a bit of a travesty that he isn't as celebrated as say, Jack Morris.

The fact that he never won a Cy Young is absolutely a travesty. He deserved to win in 1984, probably 85, and arguably in 82.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 13, 2022, 10:18:43 AM
Quote from: Frank E on April 13, 2022, 09:54:35 AM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: Frank E on April 12, 2022, 05:45:28 PM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.

Why do they have to call up a catcher?

Because Kirk is too fat to play catcher every day and they can't have their backup catcher DH so they are carrying three catchers.  Jansen is hurt and will be out for "weeks"

Damn fat catchers.

I mean it is a bit of a problem if the Jays don't think he can handle playing consecutive days at catcher.  Heineman was atrocious behind the plate.  He was completely lost at the plate in his at bat and he was messing up signals with Kikuchi.  His error directly resulted in a run too.  I understand wanting to have a 3rd catcher on the roster if you are going to DH Kirk but Kirk should be able to catch two days in a row. 
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 13, 2022, 10:29:32 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on April 13, 2022, 10:02:58 AM
I would love to see some kind of campaign to get Stieb in the HOF. He was one of the best starters of the 80s, and I'd say easily top 5 pitchers of the decade, but that's holding him back? Wins. Which is a stupid metric for pitchers.

With all the advanced stats available, he is absolutely HOF worthy. Obviously I'm biased with him being my all time favourite Jays player, but I think it's a bit of a travesty that he isn't as celebrated as say, Jack Morris.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's just wins that are the issue. His career WAR(56.5 via BR), for example, would be pretty mediocre for a HOF candidate and if you look at the pitchers between 50-60 WAR you find some HOFers, sure, but mostly not. I think that's to some extent because Stieb did not have a particularly long career(only about 2900 IP) which really matters for cumulative stats and a lot of the things people value now for pitchers he doesn't really grade out that well at(he has a bizarrely terrible K/BB ratio with very few K's)

I think someone who's a pretty good comp for Stieb is Bret Saberhagen. They're contemporaries who both pitched on some of the better AL teams of the 80's and both had fairly short careers(Saberhagen got to about 2600 IP) with pretty similar career W-L records(176-137 for Stieb, 167-117 for Saberhagen). But because Saberhagen has a significantly better K/BB ratio(3.64 to 1.61) and was a little better at controlling guys getting on base(1.14 career WHIP to Stieb's 1.24) he grades out as being a little more valuable over the course of his career(58.9 WAR). Neither guy was a serious HOF Candidate(1.4% for Stieb in his only year on the ballot, 1.3% for Saberhagen)

I can't defend Morris as that's one of the worst decisions the HOF ever made but I'm not sure what you can point to in Stieb's career that suggests he's more in line with the guys with the 60-70 WAR where HOF selection tends to be a little more common.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 10:30:49 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on April 13, 2022, 10:10:33 AM
Quote from: Joe S. on April 13, 2022, 10:02:58 AM
I would love to see some kind of campaign to get Stieb in the HOF. He was one of the best starters of the 80s, and I'd say easily top 5 pitchers of the decade, but that's holding him back? Wins. Which is a stupid metric for pitchers.

With all the advanced stats available, he is absolutely HOF worthy. Obviously I'm biased with him being my all time favourite Jays player, but I think it's a bit of a travesty that he isn't as celebrated as say, Jack Morris.

The fact that he never won a Cy Young is absolutely a travesty. He deserved to win in 1984, probably 85, and arguably in 82.
You guys should watch the Stieb series. I just started watching and it's solid. Starts with an amazing anecdote.

Too bad a (non-spousal abusing) sports journalist didn't take up the Stieb HOF cause like Jonah Keri did for Tim Raines.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on April 13, 2022, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.
Collins has proved to be a waste of space, Heineman we need some more samples, but why is Moreno not up and fulfilling his destiny with all our other young players.  I don't understand Collins at all.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 13, 2022, 12:42:04 PM
Quote from: Highlander on April 13, 2022, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: L K on April 12, 2022, 05:40:32 PM
Jays already using their 5th catcher tonight.  I get reading McGuire and getting something for nothing.  I don't understand having Collins on the roster but having to call up Heineman to catch.
Collins has proved to be a waste of space, Heineman we need some more samples, but why is Moreno not up and fulfilling his destiny with all our other young players.  I don't understand Collins at all.

Moreno only has the AA season under his belt and missed a big chunk of spring training due to visa issues.

He's going to be a mid-season call-up.  He'll still benefit from a bit of seasoning.

On the other side of the good news spectrum Alyssa Nakken served as the 1st base coach for the Giants last night after their 1st base coach got ejected.   That makes her the first female coach to be on the field during a game.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 09:40:15 PM
Vladdy, oh my.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 13, 2022, 09:41:07 PM
Three long home runs and a double.  He is amazing

We probably have the best hockey player and best baseball player playing in Toronto right now
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 10:02:41 PM
https://twitter.com/CespedesBBQ/status/1514421702385704964
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 10:11:53 PM
https://twitter.com/jsterlingcalls/status/1514424180749455362

Lol
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on April 13, 2022, 10:30:59 PM
https://twitter.com/JSterlingCalls/status/1514424180749455362
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 10:46:14 PM
https://twitter.com/mearnspsa/status/1514393544764571648
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 11:09:29 PM
https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/1514431019998486534
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 13, 2022, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 10:02:41 PM
https://twitter.com/CespedesBBQ/status/1514421702385704964

It's not, like, by a week or something either. Guerrero is more than a full year younger than Rutschman.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on April 14, 2022, 08:16:47 AM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on April 13, 2022, 10:11:53 PM
https://twitter.com/jsterlingcalls/status/1514424180749455362

Lol

Seriously. That wasn't even close to going out.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on April 14, 2022, 05:06:11 PM
Is there a chance that teams just stop pitching to Junior on a more regular basis?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 14, 2022, 05:39:28 PM
Quote from: Frank E on April 14, 2022, 05:06:11 PM
Is there a chance that teams just stop pitching to Junior on a more regular basis?

With Teoscar injured, probably...but I do think that one of the big reasons why he has been so good is walking him or pitching around him just means more guys on base for a dominant hitter. 

It also helps that Vlad can destroy pitches in bad locations.  He's not as good as his Dad at hitting stupid pitches but Vlad's eye is way better than Vlad Sr so he just doesn't swing at that crap.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on April 14, 2022, 05:43:27 PM

Even with Teoscar injured if pitching around Vlad becomes a real problem you can move Springer or Bichette down in the line-up and the strategy probably becomes pretty ineffective.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on April 16, 2022, 05:42:35 PM
This is some of the worst calling of balls and strikes by an ump I've ever seen. Holy sweet lord.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 10:43:41 AM
Quote from: Bender on April 16, 2022, 05:42:35 PM
This is some of the worst calling of balls and strikes by an ump I've ever seen. Holy sweet lord.
https://twitter.com/umpscorecards/status/1515701531009773572

68% called strike accuracy. [emoji44]
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 10:49:15 AM
https://twitter.com/kpapetti/status/1515703229711060993
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 17, 2022, 11:03:43 AM
If Jeff Nelson sounds familiar he was the home plate umpire in the Jays series against Kansas City where he screwed Ben Revere
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 01:10:03 PM
https://twitter.com/sportsnetpr/status/1515729298342166528

Aw, damn.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on April 17, 2022, 01:16:54 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 10:43:41 AM
Quote from: Bender on April 16, 2022, 05:42:35 PM
This is some of the worst calling of balls and strikes by an ump I've ever seen. Holy sweet lord.
https://twitter.com/umpscorecards/status/1515701531009773572

68% called strike accuracy. [emoji44]
Next level incompetence.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on April 17, 2022, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 01:10:03 PM
https://twitter.com/sportsnetpr/status/1515729298342166528

Aw, damn.
Man, I was just thinking how much I enjoy him calling the game yesterday. Ugh, brutal. Hope he gets better.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 01:24:27 PM
https://twitter.com/cjhajer/status/1515737914000424961
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on April 17, 2022, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: L K on April 17, 2022, 11:03:43 AM
If Jeff Nelson sounds familiar he was the home plate umpire in the Jays series against Kansas City where he screwed Ben Revere
It works in Tennis, these umpires are so off most of the time, keep them there for show and history and some on field rulings but let the computer systems call the strikes.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on April 17, 2022, 01:38:16 PM
Quote from: Bender on April 17, 2022, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 01:10:03 PM
https://twitter.com/sportsnetpr/status/1515729298342166528

Aw, damn.
Man, I was just thinking how much I enjoy him calling the game yesterday. Ugh, brutal. Hope he gets better.
Buck is a Blue Jay institution, a great catcher, remember when he broke his leg defending the plate and does a great job with the mike.  My prayers are with you Buck.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on April 17, 2022, 02:32:39 PM
Umps are back to jobbing us. Springer called for interference because... he ducked. Good God.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 17, 2022, 03:53:31 PM
https://twitter.com/keitholbermann/status/1515761497414283265

Nice, short thread about Buck and how supportive he is in the booth.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on April 19, 2022, 06:05:18 PM
https://twitter.com/longleysunsport/status/1516532131249463304
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 19, 2022, 10:08:13 PM
Low and outside being a strike in every Jays game this year is painful. 
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on April 21, 2022, 05:05:52 PM
Kevin Gausman is good.

Jays win their 3rd of 4 series to start the year.  They split their other series 2/2 so despite the offense scuffling they are still winning on the back of some great relief pitching and a number of good starts.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on April 22, 2022, 12:01:35 AM
Quote from: L K on April 21, 2022, 05:05:52 PM
Kevin Gausman is good.

Jays win their 3rd of 4 series to start the year.  They split their other series 2/2 so despite the offense scuffling they are still winning on the back of some great relief pitching and a number of good starts.
Good to hear. Hoping to get out to games a lot more this year.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on April 22, 2022, 01:35:39 PM
Gausman was fantastic yesterday, so far no walks at all in the innings he has pitched.  It was a nail-biter finish as Romano was a little shaky for the first time in long long time, but he got the job done.

We seem to be getting really good pitching outside or Ryu who is on injured list.  Ryu sort of reminds me of Muzzin, perhaps his best before date is expired.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on April 27, 2022, 12:06:31 PM
Quote from: L K on April 21, 2022, 05:05:52 PM
Kevin Gausman is good.

Jays win their 3rd of 4 series to start the year.  They split their other series 2/2 so despite the offense scuffling they are still winning on the back of some great relief pitching and a number of good starts.

Gausman with another good outing yesterday...I didn't watch the game, but did anyone think that Garcia looked as bad as the numbers suggest in the 8th?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on April 27, 2022, 01:17:56 PM
Yes he looked bad, very bad, almost cost us the game.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on May 01, 2022, 04:04:28 PM
https://twitter.com/codifybaseball/status/1520766848542789633

[emoji44]
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on May 01, 2022, 04:37:02 PM
https://twitter.com/mlbstats/status/1520856001242714113
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on May 01, 2022, 05:56:23 PM
Bo had two games in a row of good at bats so hopefully that's a sign he is waking up.  The offense is a huge problem right now but they are winning on some timely hitting (albeit not with RISP) and sensational pitching.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on May 02, 2022, 11:08:39 AM
Quote from: L K on May 01, 2022, 05:56:23 PM
The offense is a huge problem right now but they are winning on some timely hitting (albeit not with RISP) and sensational pitching.

Jays have faced mostly playoff contending teams with really good pitching, so some offensive struggles are to be expected. That they're still winning is a good sign. The bats should star to be able to put up the big numbers once they start to get to face some lesser competition, but more than holding their own against the best in the AL is a very encouraging.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on May 02, 2022, 11:27:45 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on May 02, 2022, 11:08:39 AM
Quote from: L K on May 01, 2022, 05:56:23 PM
The offense is a huge problem right now but they are winning on some timely hitting (albeit not with RISP) and sensational pitching.

Jays have faced mostly playoff contending teams with really good pitching, so some offensive struggles are to be expected. That they're still winning is a good sign. The bats should star to be able to put up the big numbers once they start to get to face some lesser competition, but more than holding their own against the best in the AL is a very encouraging.

No doubt.  Gausman/Manoah/Berrios look like a top 3 that contenders put out on the mound.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on May 02, 2022, 11:32:54 AM
Springer might be good.

Gausman might be good.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on May 03, 2022, 09:31:21 PM
I'm not one to sit here and blame umpires but my god are these guys arrogant asshats. Two blatant missed calls. There were 5 outs that inning.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on May 03, 2022, 09:54:01 PM
yeah, I could almost give them the missed first base out, but Vladdy definitely tagged that guy running down between third and home. I thought NHL reffing was bad........
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on May 04, 2022, 02:18:40 PM
https://twitter.com/BlueJays/status/1521885261881352193
That's not how lightsabres work... unless these are beskarballs?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on May 07, 2022, 03:33:25 PM
Katoh grabbed off waivers by the Mets.

Toronto sports teams waiver wire claims goes up by one.

https://twitter.com/GosukeKatoh/status/1522997464566878208
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on May 11, 2022, 10:58:23 AM
Jays faltering a bit here in the early part of the season...
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on May 11, 2022, 12:16:38 PM
Quote from: Frank E on May 11, 2022, 10:58:23 AM
Jays faltering a bit here in the early part of the season...
Ya their not winning the one run games this past week and their batting sucks, we need the boys to heat up.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on May 11, 2022, 05:13:09 PM
The Jays offence is a problem but MLB producing a dead ball is just so unbelievably tone deaf.  They really suck at improving their product. 

Between the constant umpire show on a nightly basis and offence being down more than a half run a game I'm really struggling to pay as much attention.
Title: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on May 15, 2022, 12:04:38 PM
https://twitter.com/rangers/status/1525830863534972929

If you're down about the Leafs as a franchise, consider this point of pride in Texas. Franchise high-water mark.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on May 15, 2022, 12:42:15 PM
https://twitter.com/mlbpipeline/status/1525686867118673922

That is mind-boggling.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on May 22, 2022, 05:34:58 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/fYw0YYB/99-C0-AFAA-8-AB8-4952-8855-068-BF47-DC82-F.gif)

Blue Jays offence.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on June 01, 2022, 09:34:47 PM

The Jays have two catchers. One is slashing .297/.374/.422, the other is slashing .289/.347/.778.

Their top prospect is a catcher at AAA. He's slashing .331/.388/.424.

Interesting position to be in.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 05, 2022, 10:34:07 PM
https://twitter.com/tmz_sports/status/1533562466390745089

F these guys.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 05, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
https://twitter.com/tmz_sports/status/1533562466390745089

F these guys.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 05, 2022, 10:34:55 PM
https://twitter.com/tmz_sports/status/1533562466390745089

F these guys.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on June 06, 2022, 03:04:17 PM
https://twitter.com/Jared_Carrabis/status/1533527381578764297

Choo-Choo!
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on June 07, 2022, 10:40:18 PM

4 for 4 tonight. The train keeps rolling to .324.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 08, 2022, 11:39:54 PM
Speaking of catchers...

https://twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/1534739368560173058
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on June 09, 2022, 09:10:24 AM
Good opportunity for him to get some games.  Collins is not a great option at this point.  Get Moreno some at bats and a few games in the field until Jansen is back.  It does also open up the possibility that you trade Danny if Moreno looks MLB ready in his tryout.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on June 11, 2022, 10:35:11 AM
Quote from: Nik on June 01, 2022, 09:34:47 PM

The Jays have two catchers. One is slashing .297/.374/.422, the other is slashing .289/.347/.778.

Their top prospect is a catcher at AAA. He's slashing .331/.388/.424.

Interesting position to be in.

Looks like Moreno is in today catching Gausman.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Arn on June 11, 2022, 05:07:41 PM
Isn't it funny the Jays are playing at a .600 pace but of course the Yankees have to be running at .750

The 3 AL wild card spots are all held by the AL East as well.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 13, 2022, 10:23:12 PM
https://twitter.com/statscentre/status/1536533019535745024
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 14, 2022, 05:21:10 PM
More Manoah. Unbelievable.

https://twitter.com/secretbase/status/1536808589695787013
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on June 22, 2022, 03:23:32 PM
https://twitter.com/benverlander/status/1539675487080833024
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on June 22, 2022, 04:52:43 PM
That umping display last night was embarrassing for the sport.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on June 22, 2022, 09:08:34 PM
yeah, it made NHL referees look good.
And that ain't easy.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on June 24, 2022, 04:00:08 PM
https://twitter.com/Feinsand/status/1540395252460277761
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on June 24, 2022, 04:26:25 PM
Hopefully the Jays pay that fine for him
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 25, 2022, 05:06:32 PM
https://twitter.com/benwag247/status/1540525725186400256
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on June 26, 2022, 02:57:33 PM
The Blue Jays have a pitching problem
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on June 28, 2022, 11:03:56 PM
https://twitter.com/KPapetti/status/1541973421122375682?s=20&t=fCAYevI5oq0K-qdg9sTEcQ
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on June 29, 2022, 01:03:48 AM
Boston writer:

https://twitter.com/dan_shaughnessy/status/1541973474821939202
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 01, 2022, 10:36:39 AM
https://twitter.com/fivethirtyeight/status/1542874534998679552
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on July 13, 2022, 12:15:56 PM

Jays fire Montoyo. Not surprising but I think it's a non-fix masking over a deeper problem.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 13, 2022, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: Nik on July 13, 2022, 12:15:56 PM
Jays fire Montoyo. Not surprising but I think it's a non-fix masking over a deeper problem.

Trying to shock the roster into performing. Not confident in it working.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on July 13, 2022, 12:24:36 PM
Quote from: Nik on July 13, 2022, 12:15:56 PM

Jays fire Montoyo. Not surprising but I think it's a non-fix masking over a deeper problem.
What's the issue you would say?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on July 13, 2022, 12:32:55 PM
Quote from: Bender on July 13, 2022, 12:24:36 PMWhat's the issue you would say?

Well, their bullpen isn't very good and none of their big off-season additions are playing particularly well other than Gausman. Combine that with down years from most of their hitters, none of which I think is attributable to Montoyo as he was here last year when they were raking, and the team is struggling. I don't think a new manager fixes any of that.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on July 13, 2022, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: Bender on July 13, 2022, 12:24:36 PM
Quote from: Nik on July 13, 2022, 12:15:56 PM

Jays fire Montoyo. Not surprising but I think it's a non-fix masking over a deeper problem.
What's the issue you would say?

well at least partly he doesn't listen to his own damn players. Called a first base out challenge in the game last night even though Vladdy clearly told him not to, that he (Vladdy) missed the base and the runner was safe. Runner WAS safe, and the Jays lost their challenge.....and pretty much the very next play they could've used it but couldn't because Montoya had wasted it.

Just makes me wonder how much other stuff is going on.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Peter D. on July 13, 2022, 12:50:57 PM
Montoyo is gone.  FINALLY!!!
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 13, 2022, 01:09:26 PM
sneaky announcement time :D
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 13, 2022, 01:12:19 PM
Something is broken with the team. I'm not sure the manager is the broken piece but it's the easiest to swap out.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on July 13, 2022, 01:13:18 PM
Meh?  I'm not the biggest Montoyo fan but I also don't think this changes much about the fate of the team.

They aren't losing games because Montoyo is pulling the wrong strings.  Sometimes you have a manager who overplays veterans or relies on certain relievers too much.  I'm not seeing that from him. 

The offense has a terrible approach at the plate this year.  There hasn't been an adjustment to their hitting approach.  That is far more on Guillermo Martinez. 

The bullpen is just garbage.  Too many soft throwing guys.

The rotation fell apart when Ryu was bad/got hurt (Jays got incredibly lucky to get two seasons of good health out of him) and then Kikuchi was unsurprisingly bad.  Stripling is a good pitcher but it killed the bullpen depth to lose the long-man to offset the unreliable back of the rotation.

This season is more an indictment on Shapiro/Atkins than Montoyo.

I'm also not fussed about firing Charlie though because I don't think he's a manager that is going to bring a team to a championship either.   A change was probably necessary at some point in the next 1-2 years for the Jays to take the next step either way.  I just don't think firing him now is going to do much to fix a very flawed roster that has to compete in a brutal division.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on July 13, 2022, 08:41:23 PM
https://twitter.com/DamoSpin/status/1547257606787502081?s=20&t=VbK8VTb6GKJ0zUIfJE_obw

Ah Damian Cox, never change.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Arn on July 13, 2022, 09:15:27 PM
Pro sportsmen shouldn't be allowed to have fun.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 13, 2022, 09:40:50 PM
With the manager gone, the things the players initiated and enjoy should go? Oh, Damian...
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 14, 2022, 10:28:17 AM
8-2 Win. Montoyo was the problem. Problem Solved.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on July 14, 2022, 10:40:53 AM
They finish up the "first half" with four games against an awful Royals team that has to call up half a roster due to non-vaccination.  They are in a 3-way tie for the 2nd wildcard with Boston and Seattle.  If they don't sweep the Royals here I don't have much faith in the team in the second half.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Peter D. on July 14, 2022, 10:44:35 AM
Quote from: Iafrate on July 13, 2022, 08:41:23 PM
https://twitter.com/DamoSpin/status/1547257606787502081?s=20&t=VbK8VTb6GKJ0zUIfJE_obw

Ah Damian Cox, never change.

The same Damien Cox who had an entire article about wanting to see the high-five "train" by the bench along with going to tap the goalie on the pads after a goal stopped.

What a miserable coot.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on July 14, 2022, 10:46:37 AM
He wants Robots.

Teams that have fun together, play better together. End of story.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 14, 2022, 12:07:57 PM
Yup. He doesn't like that a bunch of mostly 20-somethings are having fun while playing sports for a living. I don't know about you, but I thought sports were supposed to be fun.

What a Karen.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 17, 2022, 12:17:27 PM
https://twitter.com/shidavidi/status/1548694859417993216

Jays have got draft picks #23, 60, 77, 78, and 98.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on July 17, 2022, 09:35:06 PM

Jays take a high school LHP in the first round named Brandon Barriera.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on July 17, 2022, 10:14:43 PM
Looks like great potential.  Hard throwing with multiple pitches that scout highly.   That's a high potential front of the rotation starter and a lefty to boot
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Andy on July 18, 2022, 08:25:14 AM
And Toman, the guy who I saw projected to go to the Jays with their first pick (23) on multiple mock drafts, is snatched at pick 77. Very impressive.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on July 18, 2022, 08:41:24 AM
Quote from: Andy on July 18, 2022, 08:25:14 AM
And Toman, the guy who I saw projected to go to the Jays with their first pick (23) on multiple mock drafts, is snatched at pick 77. Very impressive.

Sounds like he was telling other teams he would go to college if they picked him.

https://twitter.com/WinsAndFlosses/status/1548894855002202112
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 19, 2022, 09:48:49 PM
https://twitter.com/sportscenter/status/1549562057443483649
https://twitter.com/scottymitchtsn/status/1549565154660171777
This is so cute omg
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Arn on July 20, 2022, 04:28:13 AM
I saw an in game interview with Manoah during a game earlier in the season and I thought he came across really, really well. Well spoken, knowledgeable and quite smart.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on July 21, 2022, 09:48:38 AM

Really good article from Sportsnet about how the Jays have someone in their organization primarily dedicated to helping out players' families and how it's given them a great reputation around the league for free agents:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/longform/how-shannon-curley-became-one-of-the-blue-jays-most-influential-voices/ (https://www.sportsnet.ca/longform/how-shannon-curley-became-one-of-the-blue-jays-most-influential-voices/)
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 22, 2022, 09:02:31 PM
https://twitter.com/bluejays/status/1550638166775926785
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 22, 2022, 09:03:04 PM
Quote from: herman on July 22, 2022, 09:02:31 PM
https://twitter.com/bluejays/status/1550638166775926785

https://twitter.com/theathletic/status/1550639039048429569
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 22, 2022, 09:34:44 PM
It's 25 runs now in the 5th inning.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Arn on July 23, 2022, 06:14:59 AM
Quote from: herman on July 22, 2022, 09:34:44 PM
It's 25 runs now in the 5th inning.

Bit disappointing to end up with only 28 after starting at that pace tbh.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on July 23, 2022, 09:08:57 AM
Quote from: Arn on July 23, 2022, 06:14:59 AM
Quote from: herman on July 22, 2022, 09:34:44 PM
It's 25 runs now in the 5th inning.

Bit disappointing to end up with only 28 after starting at that pace tbh.

That's what happens when you bring Zimmer in the game.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 23, 2022, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: Arn on July 23, 2022, 06:14:59 AM
Quote from: herman on July 22, 2022, 09:34:44 PM
It's 25 runs now in the 5th inning.

Bit disappointing to end up with only 28 after starting at that pace tbh.

So close to getting to the modern day MLB record. So close.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on July 23, 2022, 01:04:32 PM
Beating up on Boston/New York is always fun.   Clowning on them is even better.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 23, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: L K on July 23, 2022, 01:04:32 PM
Beating up on Boston/New York is always fun.   Clowning on them is even better.

Setting the record for most runs they've allowed in a single game? Priceless.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 23, 2022, 03:38:39 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on July 23, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: L K on July 23, 2022, 01:04:32 PM
Beating up on Boston/New York is always fun.   Clowning on them is even better.

Setting the record for most runs they've allowed in a single game? Priceless.
On Dave Stieb's 65th birthday, too.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 23, 2022, 11:49:40 PM
https://twitter.com/statscentre/status/1551043849149190144
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 24, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1551236124034711557

Whoops.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on July 24, 2022, 02:28:20 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on July 24, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1551236124034711557

Whoops.

The Canadian advantage.  Love it.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 24, 2022, 03:37:33 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on July 24, 2022, 02:28:20 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on July 24, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1551236124034711557

Whoops.

The Canadian advantage.  Love it.
Let's play them in the World Series.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on July 24, 2022, 06:33:18 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on July 24, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1551236124034711557

Whoops.

(https://i.ibb.co/vhscTmR/4926-C697-DBBA-4-CD2-B57-E-4-AFABF0410-E8.gif)
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 24, 2022, 08:33:51 PM
https://twitter.com/talkinbaseball_/status/1551292329780289538
What party did Boston partake in before this home set against the Jays
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on July 24, 2022, 08:56:15 PM
Quote from: herman on July 24, 2022, 08:33:51 PM
https://twitter.com/talkinbaseball_/status/1551292329780289538
What party did Boston partake in before this home set against the Jays

They lost the 2 before the break 14-1 and 13-2,

Outscored by 54 in the last 5 games.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 24, 2022, 11:45:54 PM
Did someone swap all their contact lenses

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1551542380016328704
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Peter D. on July 25, 2022, 10:35:26 AM
Quote from: herman on July 24, 2022, 08:33:51 PM
https://twitter.com/talkinbaseball_/status/1551292329780289538
What party did Boston partake in before this home set against the Jays

Looks like the comedy of errors by Andrus in the 7th inning of Game 5 against the Rangers which led to Bautista's iconic bat flip.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on July 26, 2022, 11:02:23 AM
https://twitter.com/jimcallisMLB/status/1551939183568199683

Jays have now signed, I think, all of their top 10 draft picks. Went over slot with Barriera and Tucker Toman and under slot with a few other picks. Looks like a pretty solid draft.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 26, 2022, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Nik on July 26, 2022, 11:02:23 AM
https://twitter.com/jimcallisMLB/status/1551939183568199683

Jays have now signed, I think, all of their top 10 draft picks. Went over slot with Barriera and Tucker Toman and under slot with a few other picks. Looks like a pretty solid draft.

According to this site: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/draft/toronto-blue-jays/ they've signed 15 of 20 draft picks so far, which is pretty tidy business. The remaining high school kids might be tough signs (especially Nolan Perry, who was lights out in his senior year), but, overall, a solid draft for the Jays.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on July 26, 2022, 01:05:18 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on July 26, 2022, 12:02:50 PM
According to this site: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/draft/toronto-blue-jays/ they've signed 15 of 20 draft picks so far, which is pretty tidy business. The remaining high school kids might be tough signs (especially Nolan Perry, who was lights out in his senior year), but, overall, a solid draft for the Jays.

Considering what they gave Toman and Berierra you have to think they definitely made a couple of those picks with the intention of not signing anyone.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on July 26, 2022, 05:34:15 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on July 26, 2022, 12:02:50 PM
According to this site: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/draft/toronto-blue-jays/ they've signed 15 of 20 draft picks so far, which is pretty tidy business. The remaining high school kids might be tough signs (especially Nolan Perry, who was lights out in his senior year), but, overall, a solid draft for the Jays.

Perry Signed
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on July 26, 2022, 09:57:21 PM
Quote from: Deebo on July 26, 2022, 05:34:15 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on July 26, 2022, 12:02:50 PM
According to this site: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/draft/toronto-blue-jays/ they've signed 15 of 20 draft picks so far, which is pretty tidy business. The remaining high school kids might be tough signs (especially Nolan Perry, who was lights out in his senior year), but, overall, a solid draft for the Jays.

Perry Signed

Well, that's a pleasant surprise. With the numbers he put up, I figured he'd see himself as a future 1st rounder. He was practically y hit table on the mound and a huge producer at the plate.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on July 28, 2022, 01:42:45 PM
https://twitter.com/BlueJays/status/1552708001907331079?s=20&t=Bs7jWejxHp_0lvSCCabCUg
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 28, 2022, 02:07:12 PM
https://twitter.com/jomboy_/status/1552708289644974080
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 28, 2022, 02:53:35 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on July 28, 2022, 02:07:12 PM
https://twitter.com/jomboy_/status/1552708289644974080

<3 <3 <3
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on July 28, 2022, 05:36:19 PM
https://twitter.com/jomboymedia/status/1552736734076669954
Something is different this season
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on July 28, 2022, 07:50:52 PM
Quote from: herman on July 28, 2022, 05:36:19 PM
https://twitter.com/jomboymedia/status/1552736734076669954
Something is different this season
Somebody's juicing the sun.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on July 29, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Kikuchi with a good start yesterday.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 01:51:12 PM
https://twitter.com/ShiDavidi/status/1554521008249380865

https://twitter.com/ShiDavidi/status/1554522328503050241

Don't love that Groshans is part of this deal, though he has struggled at the plate this year, and, if Chapman sticks around for a while, there might not be a spot for him in the MLB roster. Might have been able to be used as part of a more impactful trade, though.

That being said, Pop is a good, young, controllable bullpen piece. Bass has experience with the Jays, as well.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on August 02, 2022, 02:35:33 PM

Like you say Pop has control and Bass has a team option for 2023 so neither guy is strictly a rental. Still not ideal to trade a top 100 prospect for bullpen guys but Groshans seems a bit injury prone so it's probably not a huge risk.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on August 02, 2022, 02:56:17 PM
I thought we traded Josh Groban and that was very confusing to me.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 02:59:29 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 02, 2022, 02:35:33 PM
Like you say Pop has control and Bass has a team option for 2023 so neither guy is strictly a rental. Still not ideal to trade a top 100 prospect for bullpen guys but Groshans seems a bit injury prone so it's probably not a huge risk.

Yup, and with the year he's having, Groshans won't be near any top 100 lists next season. Doesn't feel great at the moment, but hopefully, it's a case of the team recognizing his value isn't going to recover. 5 years of control on Pop could be worth it in the end.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on August 02, 2022, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 02:59:29 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 02, 2022, 02:35:33 PM
Like you say Pop has control and Bass has a team option for 2023 so neither guy is strictly a rental. Still not ideal to trade a top 100 prospect for bullpen guys but Groshans seems a bit injury prone so it's probably not a huge risk.

Yup, and with the year he's having, Groshans won't be near any top 100 lists next season. Doesn't feel great at the moment, but hopefully, it's a case of the team recognizing his value isn't going to recover. 5 years of control on Pop could be worth it in the end.

You also have to think that this is maybe a sign that they're pretty confident about keeping Chapman which would mean Groshans doesn't have a great path to the majors anyway.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on August 02, 2022, 05:48:45 PM
https://twitter.com/Noahsyndergaard/status/1554539055714406400
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on August 02, 2022, 05:56:12 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 02, 2022, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 02:59:29 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 02, 2022, 02:35:33 PM
Like you say Pop has control and Bass has a team option for 2023 so neither guy is strictly a rental. Still not ideal to trade a top 100 prospect for bullpen guys but Groshans seems a bit injury prone so it's probably not a huge risk.

Yup, and with the year he's having, Groshans won't be near any top 100 lists next season. Doesn't feel great at the moment, but hopefully, it's a case of the team recognizing his value isn't going to recover. 5 years of control on Pop could be worth it in the end.

You also have to think that this is maybe a sign that they're pretty confident about keeping Chapman which would mean Groshans doesn't have a great path to the majors anyway.

I kind of hope so.  Seattle paid a lot starting off trade deadline season but overall the prices haven't really been in favour of the sellers.  I think the Jays are selling off Groshans before his value drops further but at the same time it's also a bit of an indictment on the drafting if their most valued prospects are flaming out.  The lack of pitching prospects and outfield prospects is why they couldn't be serious players for Soto who I think the Padres kind of got pretty cheap given just how good he has been so far in his career

Jays got outbid by the Phillies for Syndergaard.   

Really mediocre deadline from Atkins/Shapiro to not bolster a pretty mediocre starting rotation or get a left handed bat for the bench....especially with Springer's being in question.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 06:00:50 PM
https://twitter.com/byrobertmurray/status/1554585603370455040

Ross Stripling type with decent numbers. Good bullpen depth.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on August 02, 2022, 06:04:01 PM

Apparently the Jays are getting Whit Merrifield? I guess that means he's open to vaccinations.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 06:06:06 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 02, 2022, 06:04:01 PM
Apparently the Jays are getting Whit Merrifield? I guess that means he's open to vaccinations.

That's an interesting one. He's having a down year, but maybe a playoff race will be enough to help him get his bat back.

EDIT: for Samad Taylor and Max Castillo. Taylor is no loss. Castillo has potential to be a decent swing man type. No big losses there, really.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on August 02, 2022, 06:10:05 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on August 02, 2022, 06:00:50 PM
https://twitter.com/byrobertmurray/status/1554585603370455040

Ross Stripling type with decent numbers. Good bullpen depth.

I don't hate the addition but I don't like that we gave up Nick Frasso
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on August 02, 2022, 09:13:09 PM
So Merrifield isn't even vaccinated and the Jays are going to leave it up to him to decide whether he wants to or not.   What a stupid trade. Even if he gets vaccinated he's already established he isn't a team player.   My job bias is coming out but I wouldn't want him in my clubhouse.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on August 03, 2022, 09:15:26 AM
You sure can tell that Rogers owns Sportsnet when looking at the headlines for yesterday's trade deadline acquisitions by the Rogers Blue Jays.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on August 03, 2022, 12:58:37 PM
Quote from: L K on August 02, 2022, 06:10:05 PM
I don't hate the addition but I don't like that we gave up Nick Frasso

So I don't like that we gave up Frasso either but worth noting that in addition to White, the Jays also got IF prospect Alex De Jesus from the Dodgers in the deal. He's young but between A and High A ball this year he's hitting pretty well and is a legit prospect who MLB now has as the Jay's #8 prospect.

Honestly, if you look at Groshans for De Jesus as a pretty even swap then Frasso was the only prospect of real significance the Jays moved. Meanwhile they added some pretty valuable pieces. It wasn't the day I think any of us would have said was ideal but I think the Jays added in some key areas while avoiding paying for rentals or giving up any of their high value prospects.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 03, 2022, 01:41:30 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 03, 2022, 12:58:37 PM
So I don't like that we gave up Frasso either but worth noting that in addition to White, the Jays also got IF prospect Alex De Jesus from the Dodgers in the deal. He's young but between A and High A ball this year he's hitting pretty well and is a legit prospect who MLB now has as the Jay's #8 prospect.

Honestly, if you look at Groshans for De Jesus as a pretty even swap then Frasso was the only prospect of real significance the Jays moved. Meanwhile they added some pretty valuable pieces. It wasn't the day I think any of us would have said was ideal but I think the Jays added in some key areas while avoiding paying for rentals or giving up any of their high value prospects.

That's the thing that stood out for me - none of the players the Jays acquired are pure rentals. They all have potential to be back next season. that helps balance out some of the acquisition costs for me.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Andy on August 03, 2022, 05:49:04 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 03, 2022, 12:58:37 PM
Quote from: L K on August 02, 2022, 06:10:05 PM
I don't hate the addition but I don't like that we gave up Nick Frasso

So I don't like that we gave up Frasso either but worth noting that in addition to White, the Jays also got IF prospect Alex De Jesus from the Dodgers in the deal. He's young but between A and High A ball this year he's hitting pretty well and is a legit prospect who MLB now has as the Jay's #8 prospect.

Honestly, if you look at Groshans for De Jesus as a pretty even swap then Frasso was the only prospect of real significance the Jays moved. Meanwhile they added some pretty valuable pieces. It wasn't the day I think any of us would have said was ideal but I think the Jays added in some key areas while avoiding paying for rentals or giving up any of their high value prospects.

This is pretty much how I saw it. And as for Frasso, maybe I'm missing something here but he turns 24 soon and is still pitching in high A-ball; what is the fixation with what (at least to my inexperienced eyes) looks to be an iffy, if not lower ceiling, prospect?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on August 03, 2022, 06:29:15 PM
Quote from: Andy on August 03, 2022, 05:49:04 PM
This is pretty much how I saw it. And as for Frasso, maybe I'm missing something here but he turns 24 soon and is still pitching in high A-ball; what is the fixation with what (at least to my inexperienced eyes) looks to be an iffy, if not lower ceiling, prospect?

So it's a fair question but I think it's a couple of things. One, while you're right he's not young he's only pitched a little bit in the pros after coming back from TJ surgery and any time a guy has been lights out without struggling in the minors you wonder if he can move quickly through the system. Also it's just his potential as exactly the kind of player the Jays were looking for yesterday, a high value bullpen arm. So when you add the numbers and the stuff and the fact that he's relatively inexperienced in pro ball I do think he's an exciting prospect.

That said MLB now has him as the #26 Dodgers prospect so I may be a little dazzled just by the ridiculousness of the numbers he's putting up this year.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 03, 2022, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 03, 2022, 06:29:15 PM
That said MLB now has him as the #26 Dodgers prospect so I may be a little dazzled just by the ridiculousness of the numbers he's putting up this year.

I think there's some hedging there, as evaluators need to see how well he holds up against more developed/more mature hitters. His numbers in A ball leap of the page, for sure, but I get the hesitation to put too much stock in them. If he was doing that in the upper minors, he'd be untouchable.

There's a lot of unknowns with him right now.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on August 04, 2022, 06:28:04 PM
https://twitter.com/ardenzwelling/status/1555302120869486592
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on August 04, 2022, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: herman on August 04, 2022, 06:28:04 PM
https://twitter.com/ardenzwelling/status/1555302120869486592

So...J&J?
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Frank E on August 09, 2022, 03:41:49 PM
Here's your LHB:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-signing-veteran-outfielder-jackie-bradley-jr/

Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on August 09, 2022, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: Frank E on August 09, 2022, 03:41:49 PM
Here's your LHB:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-signing-veteran-outfielder-jackie-bradley-jr/

I don't know the rules, is he eligible to play in the playoffs? Not that I think he'll be much of a difference maker.

EDIT: Googled it, looks like yep!
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Deebo on August 09, 2022, 04:39:02 PM
He might be a marginal upgrade on Zimmer, might.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 09, 2022, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: Deebo on August 09, 2022, 04:39:02 PM
He might be a marginal upgrade on Zimmer, might.

He's better defensively, but not a great upgrade at the plate.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on August 16, 2022, 04:05:07 PM
Jays are slumping pretty bad right now.  Now in the 3rd wildcard (tied with Tampa) and only 1.5 games up on the Orioles. 

Kikuchi has probably started his last game of the season (hopefully).
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on August 16, 2022, 05:05:18 PM
Bah!
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Highlander on August 17, 2022, 11:03:49 AM
Sort of weird, they started tanking, Charlie gets the axe and then they play lights out after the break and now back to bad baseball. Something is not right in Jay's land.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on August 17, 2022, 10:45:09 PM
What's going on
https://twitter.com/mudhens/status/1560058232013553664
https://twitter.com/buffalobisons/status/1560091011157729281
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on August 20, 2022, 05:49:45 PM
https://twitter.com/sportsnetben/status/1560713638930939906

https://twitter.com/sportsnetben/status/1560823250845835264

https://twitter.com/sportsnetben/status/1561093120745521156

https://twitter.com/arashmadani/status/1561100721441079296
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on August 21, 2022, 08:31:00 AM
If only the Jays didn't go into a slump at the same time as the Yankees. They could have made it a real race.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on August 22, 2022, 09:17:37 AM
Can't win em all.  Had a good chance to break the game open in the 7th inning yesterday.  Yankees walked in the tying run and Gurriel and Vlad chased pitches out of the zone to record the final two outs.

That slump through the first half of August really killed their momentum.  There aren't a lot of easy games left on the schedule with so many against division rivals.  I can't wait for next year with the more balanced schedule.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on August 24, 2022, 01:24:42 PM
https://twitter.com/ByMcCullough/status/1562268852503085056
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Darryl on August 28, 2022, 12:12:18 PM
This team runs so hot and cold the last while.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on August 28, 2022, 03:45:14 PM
I really done with lazy effort baseball from Hernandez.  When he is on he is one heck of a hitter but him not running a playin the 6th cost the team a run
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on August 29, 2022, 08:24:39 AM
and if that foot is bothering him so much that he couldn't run that out, then he shouldn't be playing. Put Tapia or Bradley in.

grr...love you Teo, but ya gotta put team first here.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on August 30, 2022, 08:10:37 PM
https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1564762700806250496
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on September 06, 2022, 12:34:15 PM
https://twitter.com/sn_mlb/status/1567142671470264321
how come we didn't trade everybody for this guy
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on September 06, 2022, 04:02:19 PM
Quote from: herman on September 06, 2022, 12:34:15 PM
https://twitter.com/sn_mlb/status/1567142671470264321
how come we didn't trade everybody for this guy

Cause then we'd be 17 games below .500 too.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on September 06, 2022, 08:23:48 PM
https://twitter.com/mlb/status/1567006590883995655
https://twitter.com/benverlander/status/1567290403979952128
I love this
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Dappleganger on September 07, 2022, 09:50:08 AM
With that strikeout it makes Roger and Kody Clemens as the most strikeouts for a father and son combo followed by the Stottlemyre's of Mel, Mel Jr, and Todd.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on September 07, 2022, 08:37:33 PM
https://twitter.com/bluejays/status/1567667755595202562
This is fun
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on September 11, 2022, 09:52:44 AM
https://twitter.com/sportsnet/status/1568796125011873797
Hoooollllllllly
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on September 12, 2022, 10:12:28 PM
https://twitter.com/jomboymedia/status/1569497031848218626
https://twitter.com/bluejays/status/1569500699670577157
Bo has a bit of Bautista to him
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: herman on September 13, 2022, 01:19:20 PM
https://twitter.com/DownToBlack/status/1569693349115842568
oooh i like this
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on September 13, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Jays are hot but in tough today. 

Manoah comes done with a stomach bug.  He might be able to pitch the 2nd half of the double header but are doing a bullpen day (largely pitched by Mitch White...) for Game 1 and may have to do another bullpen day for Game 2.

Lot of toll on the bullpen in the last week.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on September 14, 2022, 07:25:22 AM
What I like most about the Jays the last couple weeks is they keep coming back in games that they are down going into the 6th or 7th inning. At several points in the year, if they jays were down by a run or two going into the 6th, you could turn the game off.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on September 15, 2022, 09:53:34 AM
Yes but they're performance with runners in scoring position over the last few months has not been good. Games are much closer than they need to be and they are putting themselves in these 'having to come
Back' situations.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: OldTimeHockey on September 16, 2022, 09:07:31 AM
The Jays Season:

Good Game
Good Game
Good Game
Lose 11-0
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on September 21, 2022, 08:10:11 AM
I don't trust professional sports to not have guys using the next era of drug enhancement to ignore Barry Bonds 73 home runs but Aaron Judge is having one hell of a season.  His #60 last night.

Bonds - 73
McGwire - 70
Sosa - 66
McGwire - 65
Sosa - 64
Sosa - 63
Maris - 61
Bonds - 60
Ruth - 60
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on September 21, 2022, 11:51:48 AM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on September 16, 2022, 09:07:31 AM
The Jays Season:

Good Game
Good Game
Good Game
Lose 11-0

That's not 'blue jays' specific. That's just baseball. I think tB gave up 10 runs to the yanks but the week before had beat them
9-0.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on September 21, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: L K on September 21, 2022, 08:10:11 AM
I don't trust professional sports to not have guys using the next era of drug enhancement to ignore Barry Bonds 73 home runs but Aaron Judge is having one hell of a season.  His #60 last night.

Bonds - 73
McGwire - 70
Sosa - 66
McGwire - 65
Sosa - 64
Sosa - 63
Maris - 61
Bonds - 60
Ruth - 60

I know this is going to be quite random and there's no way to properly discuss this, but does anyone believe Ruth could even be an MLB player against today's pitchers?

I have a hard time believing he'd hit any home runs today. I know, different era, different context, but I don't have this 'deep respect' for these super old timey players.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Joe on September 21, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
I know this is going to be quite random and there's no way to properly discuss this, but does anyone believe Ruth could even be an MLB player against today's pitchers?

I have a hard time believing he'd hit any home runs today. I know, different era, different context, but I don't have this 'deep respect' for these super old timey players.

It's a tough hypothetical to wrestle with because you could probably say it about athletes in just about any sport. If you look at Olympic times in those years they wouldn't come close to qualifying for the Olympics today.

Ruth was a better athlete than people give him credit for though. A lot of the image around him was made later in his career when he'd put on weight but in his prime he was just a big, strong dude. He had a bunch of years with 10+ triples which he couldn't have done if he was the shambling oaf people sometimes present him as.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Bender on September 21, 2022, 12:06:07 PM
Quote from: Joe on September 21, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: L K on September 21, 2022, 08:10:11 AM
I don't trust professional sports to not have guys using the next era of drug enhancement to ignore Barry Bonds 73 home runs but Aaron Judge is having one hell of a season.  His #60 last night.

Bonds - 73
McGwire - 70
Sosa - 66
McGwire - 65
Sosa - 64
Sosa - 63
Maris - 61
Bonds - 60
Ruth - 60

I know this is going to be quite random and there's no way to properly discuss this, but does anyone believe Ruth could even be an MLB player against today's pitchers?

I have a hard time believing he'd hit any home runs today. I know, different era, different context, but I don't have this 'deep respect' for these super old timey players.
It never made sense to me to judge old players as if we should just ignore that they would have all the intrinsic gifts they had coupled with today's training and discipline. If any player today went back in time at birth to 100yrs ago would they become an athlete worth anything at that time? Who knows.

Sent from my SM-S908W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: bustaheims on September 21, 2022, 12:18:59 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2022, 12:06:07 PM
It never made sense to me to judge old players as if we should just ignore that they would have all the intrinsic gifts they had coupled with today's training and discipline. If any player today went back in time at birth to 100yrs ago would they become an athlete worth anything at that time? Who knows.

Exactly. Ruth, with today's training regimens and advancements, might have been an absolute beast out there - assuming he had the discipline to stick to it (he was known to not have the healthiest lifestyle by today's standards, after all). He was just so absurdly dominant in his era that it's hard to fathom today. To put things in context, Aaron Judge's astronomical 215 OPS+ this season would only have been the 9th best of Ruth's career!
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: Joe on September 21, 2022, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2022, 12:01:01 PM
Quote from: Joe on September 21, 2022, 11:55:05 AM
I know this is going to be quite random and there's no way to properly discuss this, but does anyone believe Ruth could even be an MLB player against today's pitchers?

I have a hard time believing he'd hit any home runs today. I know, different era, different context, but I don't have this 'deep respect' for these super old timey players.

It's a tough hypothetical to wrestle with because you could probably say it about athletes in just about any sport. If you look at Olympic times in those years they wouldn't come close to qualifying for the Olympics today.

Ruth was a better athlete than people give him credit for though. A lot of the image around him was made later in his career when he'd put on weight but in his prime he was just a big, strong dude. He had a bunch of years with 10+ triples which he couldn't have done if he was the shambling oaf people sometimes present him as.

Absolutely fair. And I acknowledge that this is almost impossible to discuss. But I wasn't coming from the angle that he was this out of shape oaf, it was more a commentary on the quality of pitchers back then.

You put judge in 1920s and he probably hits 120 homeruns put Ruth in 2020 mlb and he's lucky to catch up with a pitch.

In my mind anyway.
Title: Re: 2022 Blue Jays
Post by: L K on September 22, 2022, 01:53:52 PM
On one hand pitchers doctored the ball to hell so balls would have really weird flight paths.  That being said when I watch highlights of Gaylord Perry who threw a lot of spitballs and compare that to some of the mid 90s sliders from today...the movement today is far more dramatic while also having more velocity.

I don't doubt that Ruth would still be a prolific hitter in todays game but if you just took Ruth from his era and popped him into the 2022 season without any modification to his training I think he wouldn't be anywhere near the hitter.  That's just an unfair scenario though because you need to afford Ruth modern tech, modern training and that completely changes the kind of hitter he would be.