Author Topic: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion  (Read 9572 times)

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Offline Nik

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2022, 04:35:43 PM »
I didn't know we were talking about 2 years ago or 3 years ago, I certainly wasn't, I'm talking about the improvement in Kadri this year, nothing else and I wonder who or what caused the change, if it's a who let's get him with the Leafs, Bednar coached there last year so it probably wasn't him, why was Kadri so much better this year, get with the program people.

I'm not sure this shows a particularly serious understanding of how player development happens.

Let's say, for a second, that fundamentally the proposition is correct. That Kadri's big year wasn't the result of something fairly unremarkable like random chance or him being in a contract year or his surroundings or the scoring increase this year that saw a lot of guys on various teams have career years. Let's also say that it wasn't simply a confluence of any or all of the above as well as various other coaching factors. Let's run with the premise that it was directly attributable to any one person or thing that the Leafs could somehow adopt.

Well, let's deal with the logical extensions there. Colorado obviously had a good year but certainly not every single player on the Avalanche had a remarkable year the way Kadri did. So did this one person or thing only apply to Kadri? Was this coach simply the Kadri whisperer? Kadri had a big year but JT Compher had the same sort of year he always had. So why didn't this one person or thing apply to Compher? It seems pretty unlikely that Colorado hired a coach whose only job was to coach Kadri so any person who could be credited with Kadri's year clearly would have a success rate of massively improving players that was below 100% and we couldn't simply assume that what worked with Kadri would work with the players the Leafs wanted it to.

And let's take it a step further. Let's assume the above is incorrect. Let's say there was a person the Leafs could hire who would just be able to drastically improve any and all players the Leafs wanted them to. That person would be the most sought after employee in the history of the NHL. They would be massively famous, command millions if not tens of millions of dollars. Could the Leafs hire that person? Maybe, but maybe not. Why wouldn't the Rangers or Habs or Blackhawks break the bank to hire that person?

I also sort of feel compelled to point out that if the evidence for some sort of drastic improvement for Kadri's game that could be replicated here is Kadri having one year better than any other in his career it's kind of worth pointing out that Marner, Matthews and Nylander also had the best seasons of their careers.
I wish to hell I’d never said "Winning isn’t everything it’s the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you’ve won.
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Offline hobarth

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2022, 06:01:44 PM »
I didn't know we were talking about 2 years ago or 3 years ago, I certainly wasn't, I'm talking about the improvement in Kadri this year, nothing else and I wonder who or what caused the change, if it's a who let's get him with the Leafs, Bednar coached there last year so it probably wasn't him, why was Kadri so much better this year, get with the program people.

I'm not sure this shows a particularly serious understanding of how player development happens.

Let's say, for a second, that fundamentally the proposition is correct. That Kadri's big year wasn't the result of something fairly unremarkable like random chance or him being in a contract year or his surroundings or the scoring increase this year that saw a lot of guys on various teams have career years. Let's also say that it wasn't simply a confluence of any or all of the above as well as various other coaching factors. Let's run with the premise that it was directly attributable to any one person or thing that the Leafs could somehow adopt.

Well, let's deal with the logical extensions there. Colorado obviously had a good year but certainly not every single player on the Avalanche had a remarkable year the way Kadri did. So did this one person or thing only apply to Kadri? Was this coach simply the Kadri whisperer? Kadri had a big year but JT Compher had the same sort of year he always had. So why didn't this one person or thing apply to Compher? It seems pretty unlikely that Colorado hired a coach whose only job was to coach Kadri so any person who could be credited with Kadri's year clearly would have a success rate of massively improving players that was below 100% and we couldn't simply assume that what worked with Kadri would work with the players the Leafs wanted it to.

And let's take it a step further. Let's assume the above is incorrect. Let's say there was a person the Leafs could hire who would just be able to drastically improve any and all players the Leafs wanted them to. That person would be the most sought after employee in the history of the NHL. They would be massively famous, command millions if not tens of millions of dollars. Could the Leafs hire that person? Maybe, but maybe not. Why wouldn't the Rangers or Habs or Blackhawks break the bank to hire that person?

I also sort of feel compelled to point out that if the evidence for some sort of drastic improvement for Kadri's game that could be replicated here is Kadri having one year better than any other in his career it's kind of worth pointing out that Marner, Matthews and Nylander also had the best seasons of their careers.

This is a decent response but let me point out that I'm a Leaf fan and as such I couldn't give a flying fig about how well Kadri is/was doing so I don't have any sort of inner understanding of what's going on in Colorado.

Some players are more receptive to different people for God knows what reason, some players simply need to move to different teams where their abilities have a chance of being recognized, examples Stephenson, Karlsson and Theodore on Vegas.

I am obviously stating that TO's coaching hasn't/isn't reaching TO's players to the level required for them to thrive in the playoffs but it might not be necessary to replace the coach, probably a good idea, but spend $s on something that is missing, proper motivators, maybe? TO in a Cap world can't simply spend money to improve the team mates so maybe finding the best team possible and spending significantly more $s on people with motivational or who knows what skills might help. I believe TO went to a new level of coach remuneration with the concept that a coach alone might have been enough to enable a team to overachieve or even meet that team's potential. It was an time tested shuffling of coaches that has some cred but can also backfire, Babs was good for a truly horrible team but not so much for a very young team unless the youth played like aged vets, Hyman.

Let's get back to Kadri, a 30 year old Kadri, 30 year olds don't usually pull career years out of well you know, they're usually in some state of decline, Kadri put together a statistical year where he had close to double the amount of points that could be expected from him in a normal year, that was stupendous. Mitch and Austin also had better years but at 23 and 24 they are expected to, a 30 year old Kadri is normally expected to hopefully maintain, not do anything close to what he did with his history. Kadri in his previous 2 contract years managed 39 and 45 points, I'd say that Kadri thrived this year for a reason beyond the fact that he needs to sign another contract.

Teams are chemistry experiments but imagine if a team could somehow break thru the chemistry experimental phase and find something more decisive like money ball hinted at. I think that we should expect the same results with traditional approaches to team building being used year after year unless TO for whatever reason gets a lucky year where a Cup is won, like Washington, then the chemistry or luck goes south. I watched a lot of the playoffs this year and I noticed how committed Colorado's top players were, that was a level I never felt was equaled by TO's top players. It's just very possible that Colorado's players, top players, are self starters, don't need motivation but it is evident to me TO's top players need something. Kadri's great year and playoff deportment are signs that something was more right for him than ever before and that Colorado won the Cup implies that whatever that thing was was positive team wide. I'd say based on pure talent Florida should've lifted the Cup this year and I think Florida is wise to replace their coach.     

Offline Nik

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2022, 07:14:43 PM »
This is a decent response but let me point out that I'm a Leaf fan and as such I couldn't give a flying fig about how well Kadri is/was doing so I don't have any sort of inner understanding of what's going on in Colorado.

It is absolutely reasonable and understandable that you don't understand the inner workings of what's going on in Colorado. What's somewhat less reasonable is when you form an argument that, boiled down, seems to be along the lines of "I don't know what they're doing in Colorado and also the Leafs should do what they're doing in Colorado."

Given the Avalanche just won the cup it's understandable to want that same level of success but absent a specific suggestion on what they did the Leafs could also do to achieve it, the argument you're putting forth is not really fact and/or evidence based.

Some players are more receptive to different people for God knows what reason, some players simply need to move to different teams where their abilities have a chance of being recognized, examples Stephenson, Karlsson and Theodore on Vegas.

Yes. This is why whatever it was Colorado did to get a good season out of Kadri(if they really "did" anything) is probably not a one-size-fits all approach that could just as easily apply here.

Also Theodore seems like a weird example. He was 21 when he left Anaheim for Vegas and had played pretty well for Anaheim in his two short stints there. That seems less like an example of Anaheim being a bad fit for him as it does just the way a talented player develops with time. I don't think there's any reason to state with any sense of certainty he wouldn't have developed into just as good a player with the Ducks.

I am obviously stating that TO's coaching hasn't/isn't reaching TO's players to the level required for them to thrive in the playoffs but it might not be necessary to replace the coach, probably a good idea, but spend $s on something that is missing, proper motivators, maybe?

Two problems here. One, I think most people would say we just saw the Leafs play pretty well in the Playoffs(certainly better against the Lightning than the team you think is the most talented in the NHL), specifically their top players. Absent believing it's impossible to play well in the playoffs but still lose a series, I don't think there is reason to believe that whatever the Leafs are doing isn't motivating their star players.

Secondly, again, absent a specific suggestion here I'm not sure this should be read as a meaningful criticism or suggestion. We've already agreed that not every player responds to "motivation" in the same way so there really can't be anything along the lines of someone we can objectively say would improve the Leafs motivation even if that were the problem. Again, like you said, he's been with the Avalanche a few years and had disappointing years there too and you don't even know if they did try new things with him or new "Motivators". So you're not even necessarily suggesting that the Avalanche even did something the Leafs could copy.

Let's get back to Kadri, a 30 year old Kadri, 30 year olds don't usually pull career years out of well you know, they're usually in some state of decline, Kadri put together a statistical year where he had close to double the amount of points that could be expected from him in a normal year, that was stupendous. Mitch and Austin also had better years but at 23 and 24 they are expected to, a 30 year old Kadri is normally expected to hopefully maintain, not do anything close to what he did with his history. Kadri in his previous 2 contract years managed 39 and 45 points, I'd say that Kadri thrived this year for a reason beyond the fact that he needs to sign another contract.

Sure and in my response to you I suggested several reasons aside from his contract why his output might be stronger this year. Quality of teammates, the leaguewide bump in scoring, the general return to normalcy this year...whatever.

And while Kadri did have so-so years in his last two contract years, he is older now and, one hopes, more mature. He's got a family. He knows, realistically, this is his last year for a big UFA deal. That's a lot of motivation.

And he has been an inconsistent scorer in his career. He has had good offensive years before. I don't think anyone would have been shocked if you told them he would have had a 30 goal, 60+ point season this year. The gap between that and what he did is the one that needs to be explained and once you get into quality of teammates and bump in league-wide scoring and, yes, just him having a career year the discrepancy that you want to attribute to a mysterious motivational guru or technique probably isn't that huge.

Teams are chemistry experiments but imagine if a team could somehow break thru the chemistry experimental phase and find something more decisive like money ball hinted at.

Feels like it's worth mentioning that Moneyball and it's origins are sort of famous for yielding good regular season results but disappointing playoff results. Despite that, the A's have never been "Let's go back to judging players by whether or not they're handsome because all these numbers aren't winning playoff series'"

I watched a lot of the playoffs this year and I noticed how committed Colorado's top players were, that was a level I never felt was equaled by TO's top players.

And this is sort of my point about why it's important to make fact and/or evidence based arguments. Because, absent that, it just boils down to your particular interpretations of players commitment levels, judged through a TV screen.

That's certainly a fair thing for you to have an opinion on if you want. It's just not really a fertile ground for debate and discussion.

I'd say based on pure talent Florida should've lifted the Cup this year and I think Florida is wise to replace their coach.     

I feel like there's a lot I could say to this but primarily I feel like reducing Florida's coaching decision re: Brunette to "They didn't get enough out of their talent level in the playoffs" misses just about ten miles worth of relevant information with regards to Florida's situation this year. I mean, Brunette was never Florida's permanent head coach, for starters.
I wish to hell I’d never said "Winning isn’t everything it’s the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you’ve won.
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Joe

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2022, 08:26:21 PM »

Let's get back to Kadri, a 30 year old Kadri, 30 year olds don't usually pull career years out of well you know, they're usually in some state of decline, Kadri put together a statistical year where he had close to double the amount of points that could be expected from him in a normal year, that was stupendous. Mitch and Austin also had better years but at 23 and 24 they are expected to, a 30 year old Kadri is normally expected to hopefully maintain, not do anything close to what he did with his history. Kadri in his previous 2 contract years managed 39 and 45 points, I'd say that Kadri thrived this year for a reason beyond the fact that he needs to sign another contract.

Just off the top of my head, Gilmour, andreychuk and Steve Thomas all had career years at 30 and never hit those numbers again. And I am sure there are a ton more.

Offline Bender

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2022, 08:46:00 PM »
I think TO should start the summer by finding out who did whatever to Kadri to wake him up, talent and maturity somehow was drawn out and the results were  incredible.

I remember Kadri as being a borderline 2nd/3rd line center who couldn't pass and had a Marner shot, that player in 71 games had 28 goals and 59 assists, this year, wow.

What could that person do for Nylander, Marner and Matthews or maybe even Kerfoot. These Leafs are all good and some exceptional even but I think there's more in all of them and watching Colorado I could see their best players were giving their all, every game and that's because of a superior motivator, probably, I don't think the same can be said about TO's best during these playoffs.

Am I blaming Keefe, in part yes, am I blaming TO's big 4, in part yes, blaming Rielly, Kerfoot, Mikeyev, sure, I don't think the majority of the team is prepared well enough to succeed in the playoffs. Line changing, d pairings, giving extra icetime to better players and whatever else is all window dressing, motivating is the meat and potatoes of hockey and even more so in the playoffs.


I do find it comical that someone is saying Mitch Marner needs to learn from a guy who has never come close to his point totals despite being considerably older.

Didn't read the post, eh, I said that someone on Colorado actually made Nazzy into a player and that, the someone not Nazzy, is who TO needs.

I find it comical that people with reading comprehension difficulties, comment about anything?
I did read it. It's ridiculous.
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Offline Bender

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2022, 08:49:30 PM »

Let's get back to Kadri, a 30 year old Kadri, 30 year olds don't usually pull career years out of well you know, they're usually in some state of decline, Kadri put together a statistical year where he had close to double the amount of points that could be expected from him in a normal year, that was stupendous. Mitch and Austin also had better years but at 23 and 24 they are expected to, a 30 year old Kadri is normally expected to hopefully maintain, not do anything close to what he did with his history. Kadri in his previous 2 contract years managed 39 and 45 points, I'd say that Kadri thrived this year for a reason beyond the fact that he needs to sign another contract.

Just off the top of my head, Gilmour, andreychuk and Steve Thomas all had career years at 30 and never hit those numbers again. And I am sure there are a ton more.
The fact that anyone is treating Kadri's year as less of either an anomaly or as partially a function of higher scoring around the league or a combination of those rather than believing someone trained Kadri in particular this one exact year and he put it all together and therefore we need to get our players to speak to whomever trained Kadri in this last year and in this last year alone is beyond all comprehension.
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Offline Nik

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2022, 09:12:17 PM »

Let's get back to Kadri, a 30 year old Kadri, 30 year olds don't usually pull career years out of well you know, they're usually in some state of decline, Kadri put together a statistical year where he had close to double the amount of points that could be expected from him in a normal year, that was stupendous. Mitch and Austin also had better years but at 23 and 24 they are expected to, a 30 year old Kadri is normally expected to hopefully maintain, not do anything close to what he did with his history. Kadri in his previous 2 contract years managed 39 and 45 points, I'd say that Kadri thrived this year for a reason beyond the fact that he needs to sign another contract.

Just off the top of my head, Gilmour, andreychuk and Steve Thomas all had career years at 30 and never hit those numbers again. And I am sure there are a ton more.

Likewise the Sedins, Brad Marchand, Claude Giroux...having a career year around 30 isn't the most common thing in the world but it's certainly not so uncommon as to warrant an investigation into the magic that must be responsible.
I wish to hell I’d never said "Winning isn’t everything it’s the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you’ve won.
- Vince Lombardi

Offline mr grieves

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2022, 09:14:31 PM »
I think TO should start the summer by finding out who did whatever to Kadri to wake him up, talent and maturity somehow was drawn out and the results were  incredible.

I remember Kadri as being a borderline 2nd/3rd line center who couldn't pass and had a Marner shot, that player in 71 games had 28 goals and 59 assists, this year, wow.

What could that person do for Nylander, Marner and Matthews or maybe even Kerfoot. These Leafs are all good and some exceptional even but I think there's more in all of them and watching Colorado I could see their best players were giving their all, every game and that's because of a superior motivator, probably, I don't think the same can be said about TO's best during these playoffs.

Am I blaming Keefe, in part yes, am I blaming TO's big 4, in part yes, blaming Rielly, Kerfoot, Mikeyev, sure, I don't think the majority of the team is prepared well enough to succeed in the playoffs. Line changing, d pairings, giving extra icetime to better players and whatever else is all window dressing, motivating is the meat and potatoes of hockey and even more so in the playoffs.

Whoa. hold on a second here. Why are we pretending like kadri wasn’t suspended for 8 (eight!) games last season playing for NOT the leafs and missed a playoff round?

And if anything his comments after winning the cup are the absolute opposite of mature. They are small and petty.

So whatever point you’re trying to make here is deeply flawed. Kadri is a talented player, but mature? Learned his lesson? No.

Huh. Wonder if there's a lesson to be learned in these facts.

Over the last 5 seasons:

2C A = 0 suspensions, 20 GP, 14 pts, .70 PPG
2C B = 3 suspensions, 39 GP, 38 pts, .97 PPG

Lesson I take from it? There's all kinds of ways to be a liability. Gotta pick your poison.

Offline Nik

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2022, 10:10:26 PM »
Huh. Wonder if there's a lesson to be learned in these facts.

Over the last 5 seasons:

2C A = 0 suspensions, 20 GP, 14 pts, .70 PPG
2C B = 3 suspensions, 39 GP, 38 pts, .97 PPG

Lesson I take from it? There's all kinds of ways to be a liability. Gotta pick your poison.

Feels like a post like this only really works if you let us in on your cleverness at the end.
I wish to hell I’d never said "Winning isn’t everything it’s the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you’ve won.
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2022, 11:41:00 PM »
Aside from all the debate over the cause of Kadri's great year I do think Hobarth's suggestion of putting Tavares on Matthews' wing is worth a look.  And giving Nylander a real long audition as a center.

Offline hobarth

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2022, 02:34:05 AM »
This is a decent response but let me point out that I'm a Leaf fan and as such I couldn't give a flying fig about how well Kadri is/was doing so I don't have any sort of inner understanding of what's going on in Colorado.

It is absolutely reasonable and understandable that you don't understand the inner workings of what's going on in Colorado. What's somewhat less reasonable is when you form an argument that, boiled down, seems to be along the lines of "I don't know what they're doing in Colorado and also the Leafs should do what they're doing in Colorado."

Given the Avalanche just won the cup it's understandable to want that same level of success but absent a specific suggestion on what they did the Leafs could also do to achieve it, the argument you're putting forth is not really fact and/or evidence based.

Some players are more receptive to different people for God knows what reason, some players simply need to move to different teams where their abilities have a chance of being recognized, examples Stephenson, Karlsson and Theodore on Vegas.

Yes. This is why whatever it was Colorado did to get a good season out of Kadri(if they really "did" anything) is probably not a one-size-fits all approach that could just as easily apply here.

Also Theodore seems like a weird example. He was 21 when he left Anaheim for Vegas and had played pretty well for Anaheim in his two short stints there. That seems less like an example of Anaheim being a bad fit for him as it does just the way a talented player develops with time. I don't think there's any reason to state with any sense of certainty he wouldn't have developed into just as good a player with the Ducks.

I am obviously stating that TO's coaching hasn't/isn't reaching TO's players to the level required for them to thrive in the playoffs but it might not be necessary to replace the coach, probably a good idea, but spend $s on something that is missing, proper motivators, maybe?

Two problems here. One, I think most people would say we just saw the Leafs play pretty well in the Playoffs(certainly better against the Lightning than the team you think is the most talented in the NHL), specifically their top players. Absent believing it's impossible to play well in the playoffs but still lose a series, I don't think there is reason to believe that whatever the Leafs are doing isn't motivating their star players.

Secondly, again, absent a specific suggestion here I'm not sure this should be read as a meaningful criticism or suggestion. We've already agreed that not every player responds to "motivation" in the same way so there really can't be anything along the lines of someone we can objectively say would improve the Leafs motivation even if that were the problem. Again, like you said, he's been with the Avalanche a few years and had disappointing years there too and you don't even know if they did try new things with him or new "Motivators". So you're not even necessarily suggesting that the Avalanche even did something the Leafs could copy.

Let's get back to Kadri, a 30 year old Kadri, 30 year olds don't usually pull career years out of well you know, they're usually in some state of decline, Kadri put together a statistical year where he had close to double the amount of points that could be expected from him in a normal year, that was stupendous. Mitch and Austin also had better years but at 23 and 24 they are expected to, a 30 year old Kadri is normally expected to hopefully maintain, not do anything close to what he did with his history. Kadri in his previous 2 contract years managed 39 and 45 points, I'd say that Kadri thrived this year for a reason beyond the fact that he needs to sign another contract.

Sure and in my response to you I suggested several reasons aside from his contract why his output might be stronger this year. Quality of teammates, the leaguewide bump in scoring, the general return to normalcy this year...whatever.

And while Kadri did have so-so years in his last two contract years, he is older now and, one hopes, more mature. He's got a family. He knows, realistically, this is his last year for a big UFA deal. That's a lot of motivation.

And he has been an inconsistent scorer in his career. He has had good offensive years before. I don't think anyone would have been shocked if you told them he would have had a 30 goal, 60+ point season this year. The gap between that and what he did is the one that needs to be explained and once you get into quality of teammates and bump in league-wide scoring and, yes, just him having a career year the discrepancy that you want to attribute to a mysterious motivational guru or technique probably isn't that huge.

Teams are chemistry experiments but imagine if a team could somehow break thru the chemistry experimental phase and find something more decisive like money ball hinted at.

Feels like it's worth mentioning that Moneyball and it's origins are sort of famous for yielding good regular season results but disappointing playoff results. Despite that, the A's have never been "Let's go back to judging players by whether or not they're handsome because all these numbers aren't winning playoff series'"

I watched a lot of the playoffs this year and I noticed how committed Colorado's top players were, that was a level I never felt was equaled by TO's top players.

And this is sort of my point about why it's important to make fact and/or evidence based arguments. Because, absent that, it just boils down to your particular interpretations of players commitment levels, judged through a TV screen.

That's certainly a fair thing for you to have an opinion on if you want. It's just not really a fertile ground for debate and discussion.

I'd say based on pure talent Florida should've lifted the Cup this year and I think Florida is wise to replace their coach.     

I feel like there's a lot I could say to this but primarily I feel like reducing Florida's coaching decision re: Brunette to "They didn't get enough out of their talent level in the playoffs" misses just about ten miles worth of relevant information with regards to Florida's situation this year. I mean, Brunette was never Florida's permanent head coach, for starters.

TO doesn't pay me to figure out how they should/can win. TO's superior players didn't have the same level of commitment that TB minus Point did and TO needs to find someone or someway to get their winning level of character.

Theodore was the player that I had hoped TO would've drafted instead of the Goat, he wasn't someone that Anaheim should've exposed in that expansion draft. Theodore was a player that should've been protected and like most coaches he wasn't played enough with Anaheim because he wasn't a vet so they didn't have enough info to retain him, essentially the same situation as the other players I mentioned that Vegas drafted or traded for.

Teams have coaches for their goalies, they have defensive coaches, PP coaches, PK coaches so why not have motivational coaches, does that not all teams do something mean that doing something different makes that innovation wrong. I think that Cooper is probably a superior motivator as he has a physiological background, do I know that he is, no, but I do know he coached TB to 2 Stanley Cups and an appearance in a 3rd Cup final.

Having opinions based on TV observations is legitimate, why in your opinion isn't it, because you say so, really? 

Playing pretty well isn't going anywhere for TO, changes need to be made and those changes need to be made to TO's superior players so that they aren't content to play pretty well, all excuses aside. Kadri had a big role in Colorado's win, for some reason he felt well enough connected to the team to be far more involved than he ever was in TO.

Kadri never came close in any way to the level of his scoring that he had this year, he finished 19th in scoring so it doesn't matter why other players did better offensively this year as he finished higher in the scoring race that at any time in his past, he's been with Colorado for 3 years and he had 2 contract years prior his contract for the last 5 years, he didn't produce then. Some players have had better years in their 30s but I think the difference in Kadri was so pronounced this year and very close to unprecedented. He was TO's best center at times with TO, he got the most icetime, he played with Mitch for a year but nothing he did in his past suggested that he was capable of the level of play he maintained this year. 

Brunnette isn't their coach and that's a good thing, mountains of info that could make who, Florida fans feel better about losing doesn't amount to anything but their team being a loser, oh ya, just like TO. TO can't even get past the first round against teams like Montreal and Columbus, it's pathetic.

Offline Nik

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2022, 03:44:05 AM »
TO doesn't pay me to figure out how they should/can win.

No, but if your criticism is "In order to win, Toronto needs to do X" you should probably have a pretty firm idea of what X is. Otherwise, it seems like most of your criticism boils down to just the post hoc fallacy. The Leafs didn't win, therefore what they did was wrong.

Theodore was the player that I had hoped TO would've drafted instead of the Goat, he wasn't someone that Anaheim should've exposed in that expansion draft.

I'm not going to go back and look at Anaheim's roster pre-expansion draft to see if they made the right decision with each of their protection decisions for the draft but either way it seems like it's a very different situation than one where a guy needs a change of situation in order to succeed.

Teams have coaches for their goalies, they have defensive coaches, PP coaches, PK coaches so why not have motivational coaches, does that not all teams do something mean that doing something different makes that innovation wrong. I think that Cooper is probably a superior motivator as he has a physiological background, do I know that he is, no, but I do know he coached TB to 2 Stanley Cups and an appearance in a 3rd Cup final.

I think most people would say that motivating players is inherently part of the job for those coaches you already listed and that hiring extra "motivation coaches" would probably be of very marginal benefit(and, to be fair, there's no evidence that successful teams have done that).

And sure, the fact that teams haven't done that doesn't mean it couldn't work but I think if you actually try to specifically describe who that motivation coach would be and what he would actually do, it's pretty to come to a place where you could argue for the specifics of it as a plan with a straight face. Seriously, are you hiring a life coach for these guys? Who give them pep talks?

Having opinions based on TV observations is legitimate, why in your opinion isn't it, because you say so, really?

So I'm not sure how it's possible to so badly misrepresent what I said absent bad faith. I said pretty clearly that you having an opinion on players commitment levels, gleaned through the TV, is a fair enough thing to have an opinion on, it's just not a fertile discussion ground.

Because fundamentally, I don't agree. I don't think the Leafs suffered from a lack of commitment or effort. I think the Leafs lost, very simply, because Tampa is a better team. They have a much better goaltender, they have better defensemen and have better forward depth. That, to me, is why they lost.

There's no real discussion to be had with trying to resolve disagreements on subjective interpretations of a player's mental state. There's just contradiction and, as Monty Python said, contradiction isn't argument.

He was TO's best center at times with TO, he got the most icetime, he played with Mitch for a year but nothing he did in his past suggested that he was capable of the level of play he maintained this year.

I disagree strongly. If I told you there was a 22 year old player who scored at a 75 point pace, would you really think that it was unbelievable that as a 31 year old he scored at a 100 point pace? Especially if he was on a better team during a year where scoring increased sharply?

That's Kadri. I think he always had that potential.   

Brunnette isn't their coach and that's a good thing, mountains of info that could make who, Florida fans feel better about losing doesn't amount to anything but their team being a loser, oh ya, just like TO. TO can't even get past the first round against teams like Montreal and Columbus, it's pathetic.

This is not a coherent paragraph.

But, again, this is just post hoc stuff. The Leafs lost, therefore what the Leafs did is wrong. Sometimes you run into a better team.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2022, 06:16:17 AM »
I think TO should start the summer by finding out who did whatever to Kadri to wake him up, talent and maturity somehow was drawn out and the results were  incredible.

I remember Kadri as being a borderline 2nd/3rd line center who couldn't pass and had a Marner shot, that player in 71 games had 28 goals and 59 assists, this year, wow.

What could that person do for Nylander, Marner and Matthews or maybe even Kerfoot. These Leafs are all good and some exceptional even but I think there's more in all of them and watching Colorado I could see their best players were giving their all, every game and that's because of a superior motivator, probably, I don't think the same can be said about TO's best during these playoffs.

Am I blaming Keefe, in part yes, am I blaming TO's big 4, in part yes, blaming Rielly, Kerfoot, Mikeyev, sure, I don't think the majority of the team is prepared well enough to succeed in the playoffs. Line changing, d pairings, giving extra icetime to better players and whatever else is all window dressing, motivating is the meat and potatoes of hockey and even more so in the playoffs.


I do find it comical that someone is saying Mitch Marner needs to learn from a guy who has never come close to his point totals despite being considerably older.

Didn't read the post, eh, I said that someone on Colorado actually made Nazzy into a player and that, the someone not Nazzy, is who TO needs.

I find it comical that people with reading comprehension difficulties, comment about anything?

Anyone who still thinks my reading comprehension is a liability can kiss my ass !
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 06:27:32 AM by RedLeaf »
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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2022, 08:34:54 AM »
Look, if they'd just tried a bit harder, they'd have won. That's all it is. They just don't have the same compete level as TB.
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Offline herman

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Re: 2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2022, 12:40:33 PM »
Is our biggest hole the old-man hole? lmao
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