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Messages - hobarth

#16
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 04, 2023, 10:55:18 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: louisstamos on July 04, 2023, 10:31:39 PMIf your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

Unlike Eichel, he didn't single-handedly carry the team on his shoulders, score every goal, win every fight, cure COVID, or end racism.

And he never will when he's the top paid player in the NHL.

Maybe Maroon shouldn't be the highest paid player in the NHL but there are a lot of highly paid players that probably considered the impact of their contract demands that allowed him to be on their teams. I guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.
#17
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:39:44 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 09:00:32 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:21:04 AMHobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

You definitely didn't answer it. It's a yes/no question. He's almost universally appreciated as one of the greatest goal-scorers ever; certainly of the last 20 years.

What's that player worth? Whatever he asks for, that's what.

So, Matthews, who's pretty much a PPG player in the playoffs is not as good of a play-off performer based on Eichel's one playoff run?

In all honesty, and I mean no offense, it sounds like you're searching for reasons to justify why the leafs players aren't worth what they're paid. Matthews got votes for the Selke last year.

So what you're saying, I assume, is that Matthews can go his entire career, never win a Cup, not even come close but still deserves to be considered a great all situations goal scorer and be able to dictate what his contracts should be?

TO be dammed, right now he can ask for $16 mil. per and you're alright with that, that's what being a fan is all about, blind faith.

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

When I see Matthews being awarded trophies, it reminds me of figure skating/diving competitions when the obvious best person doesn't win for whatever reason, McDavid is the best forward in the NHL and should win all awards that his talent deserves, Matthews is in the top 5 but the gap between him and McDavid is huge. I think McDavid felt insulted last year and was definitely out to prove that he is the only player that should be getting serious consideration for any award he could be awarded, I think he's proved his point.

PPG in the playoffs is good, great even, but not so much when most of those points are collected at the beginning of series and Matthews' contributions diminish when they're needed most, when TO needs to finish. I'm not saying that Matthews is the sole reason for TO's failures but I do say that he shouldn't be paid like a super hero until he is one, for the money he's made he should be able to put the Leafs on his shoulders and carry them far further than he has to date. 

I find it strange that a player that doesn't PK would be considered for a Selke, don't you?

Your insistence on a simple yes/no answer is very Judge Judy, this isn't a court, it's a forum.
#18
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 04, 2023, 09:23:42 PM
Quote from: cw on July 04, 2023, 09:55:30 AMIs there any Cup winning roster that any of the core 4 couldn't crack?
None that I can think of.

Are any of them grossly out of line with what they're currently paid?
I don't think so.

You might debate Tavares but when he was a UFA, a bunch of teams would have given him that deal to sign him.

The issue is closer to how do they surround these players with enough talent to win a Cup.
Maybe one of them will get flipped to free up dollars for the D, for example. But I'm not sure they're at that point and it would depend on what they're getting back.

The notion that the core 4 needs to be broken up simply because of the team results to date seems flawed. To me, it is a core 5 anyway. I look back to '67 and can't recall many, if any, seasons with a core 5 like they've got right now. If the goaltending holds up and they can land some physical D that can PK, they've got another good shot next spring. Those are significant IFs but they're not in a bad place right now.

I agree TO has a core 5, Rielly being another member of this select group.

The team in '67 didn't have a core 4/5, what they had was depth and a willingness to compete which I feel TO's core 4/5 is missing.

What you're asking for requires $s and because the core 4/5 is so well paid there isn't enough $s to properly acquire decent depth.

Another way of looking at the original intent of this thread might be What Are They Worth as a core, $47 mil. now and far more in the very near future means to me that TO will probably miss out on what should've have been a prime opportunity to be Cup competitive. The talent is there but I think the character is missing. This reminds me of Kessel, it was always mentioned that he wasn't a winner and therefore not worth the $8 mil. he was being paid. He gets traded to Pitts. and was being given serious consideration as Pitts' MVP in their first Cup win.

7 chances to prove their value, I can't say that I have been impressed by any of this core in the playoffs, they have not been good enough to overcome TO's depth problem so together they aren't worth what they're paid, that might change on different teams like the transformation of Kessel years ago.

Separated they might become worthy of their remuneration.
#19
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 04, 2023, 09:00:32 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:21:04 AMHobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.
#20
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 04, 2023, 03:52:47 AM
The draft and Bedard, are you daft?
#21
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 03, 2023, 11:43:53 PM
Quote from: Joe on July 03, 2023, 11:04:16 PMI was really hoping no one would reply to this thread and it would slowly fade away.

Why is that, you're a moderator?
#22
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 03, 2023, 11:42:36 PM
I'm giving my opinion on what I consider to be the value of Leaf players which unless they are playing basketball and paid for such has nothing to do with basketball.

Since they are hockey players and should be paid based on their accomplishments as hockey players I find any comparisons based on other sports totally useless.

I watched quite a bit of playoff hockey this year, again nothing to do with basketball, baseball or any other sport, I saw McDavid, try to win, I saw Eichel win, I don't see any Leaf being worth what those two players are, worth as defined is " of substantial or significant value or merit. for all one is worth. : to the fullest extent of one's value or ability see also for what it's worth."

My serious discussion stated quite plainly that Leaf players are overpaid and it's looking like they're going to be even more so in the near future, they're not worth what they presently make and certainly won't be worth more in the near future. Their being overpaid is hindering TO's ability to be competitive, I don't like that, that's my opinion.

Any comparison to other sports means nothing to me, to me this is a hockey forum and inability to keep it as such is trifling, I don't care what goes on in other sport venues, I'm a hockey fan. I'm not pretentious and don't feel that my knowledge of other sports is in any way relevant to hockey.

I'm not a Blue Jay fan and would never discuss them on this hockey forum, if I was a baseball fan I'd go to baseball forums to discuss baseball, not hockey. 

You want a hockey discussion then discuss hockey, I say again that TO's core 4 is overpaid and therefore hindering TO's true ability to compete. If you wanna get really stupid but at least hockey stupid I could sat that Boston wouldn't pay any player more than Bourque because he was the best player on the team, I think TO should at least not pay any of it's players more than the best player in the league unless they are the best player, newsflash they aren't. I don't care about reality, except when it negatively affects my Leafs. Other teams might want to pay their players more than McDavid even tho they're not worth more, that's their problem.

As you say my train of thought is transparent, it is because I'm seeing the same results year after year, and I'm not prone to magical thinking. It's time for a change, not for greater pay, use the core 4 to improve TO's future instead of allowing them to enhance their paycheck, these are not the right players and their level of pay will make it impossible for TO to build the right support to be anything other than an excellent regular season team.

I didn't think Dubie made a mistake paying them as well as he did because I'm all for paying players what they're worth or at least what he and I thought they would become to be worth, Dubie and I were wrong. Nylander has been worth what he's been paid, Marner should've received about Draisaitl money, $8.5, and AM, Eichel money, $10, maybe then TO could've competed.

This is honest opinion about hockey, saying that St.L. was lucky or what have you about winning the Cup isn't honest because it happened, comparing Washington to TO isn't honest, 13 year Ovie contracts, it might be opinion but it isn't honest opinion based on any current scenario.

Nik I actually do read your posts but I don't find much that interests me or that's grounded but it really grates me that you're constantly negative about any other opinions that don't match up with yours, and I don't mean just mine. You cast an negative energy that seems to repel people from posting, I don't attack people directly like you, I'm not that immature and narrow minded. 
#23
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: What are they worth?
July 03, 2023, 08:55:16 PM
Nik, I don't know didly .... about the NBA and I think it's entirely comical that you think that hockey and basketball are the same sport but OK, go for it.
#24
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / What are they worth?
July 03, 2023, 03:36:31 PM
It almost sounds like Matthews is dictating to the Leafs what his next contract should be, is he worth McDavid money, $12.5 mil., McKinnon money, $12.6 mil.?

Has Marner ever been worth Kucherov money, $9.5 mil., Pastrnak money, $11.250 mil.? 

Nylander, it's rumored is asking for north of $10 mil., sure he can ask for that much as a negotiation ploy but is that any where in the realm of reality of what he's worth?

Is resigning any of these players worthwhile at both their current levels or the horror shows of what they expect they're worth?

Is having an awesome regular season team what should be expected from these players at present and potential future remuneration, has covid ended and the potential future earnings of teams justify giving them even better money or is it time they earned their pay by being dominant thru the entire hockey season.

Holding the reins on their pay might mean a significantly weaker future Leaf team, I'm sure the only thing that holds these players to TO is their pay. I believe that Marner was looking to other teams to tender him an offer sheet during his previous negotiations which implies where his loyalty lies.

Day two of free agency was fun, the players signed might make the Leafs better but at least there is potential for a different team, different results instead of the same old, same old, winning a single round in the playoffs doesn't constitute a significantly enough change to heighten our expectations, IMO.
#25
Can't cure stupid.
#26
OMG, Kampf, why????
#27
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: 2023 Draft Discussion
June 20, 2023, 12:43:57 AM
When was the last time TO drafted a decent player outside of the 2nd round, in fact outside of the top 10, trade up especially in a strong draft year, let someone else decide they can get great quality lower in drafts, maybe they can but I pessimistic TO can.

The last strong/deep draft, 2015, #16 to #18 were Barzal, Kyle Connor, Chabot, should TO have traded up from 24 instead of down, hell yes. I don't know if TO would've done as well but it sure would've been nice if they tried.
#28
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: The Core
June 18, 2023, 01:22:12 AM
People like to point to Wash. as an example of what might happen if the core is kept intact, of course that's only possible in the next 2 years unless JT resigns for a considerable discount.

We can also look at Florida, the best regular season record in the NHL 2 years ago but playoff success didn't follow. Florida could've did the waiting game like TO or they could make the franchise changing change and get the results we saw this year. It seems they recognized the limitations of their team and decided to change the core, I think TO needs to smell those roses.

Nylander, M & M are due to renegotiate their contracts, I doubt they will accept the same amount of money so we can expect to see considerable increases, Wash. locked up Ovie for 13 years, our Ovie's don't even want to be committed for longer than 5/6 years. I don't blame them but the money they command will always cripple the Leafs.
We're even hearing that Matthews only wants to sign for 3 years because of even greater paydays in the near future.

I think our core does have a possible Cup in the future but it's extremely unlikely if those 3 and Rielly instead of JT continue to get 1/2 of TO's Cap dollars or an even greater percentage. 
#29
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: The Core
June 16, 2023, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on June 15, 2023, 04:46:33 AM
Quote from: hobarth on June 14, 2023, 08:13:53 PMJarnkrok on any of the top 3 lines is a perfect example of a team's lack of depth and he's locked up for 3 more wonderful years, awesome.

Jarnkrok had 20 goals bouncing between all 3 lines. Why would you bury him on the 4th line? What sort of depth are you looking for out of a 3rd liner that can play 1st and 2nd line minutes?

20 goals is nice if that player is/was doing something to justify his existence on whatever line he played on, Jarnkrok was horrible on TO's 3rd line, he was neither offensively or defensively relevant, he simply was there. I remember Sather saying about Blair McDonald after he scored 40 goals on Gretzky's line, a firehydrant could score 40 on Gretzky's line, Jarnkrok is a firehydrant who simply benefitted from who he played with. I believe McDonald was traded that summer and scored 21 goals(or there abouts for those so stuck on minutia) on the Nucks.

A 25 year old Jarnkrok might have had something to offer TO above the 4th line, a 30 or older Jarnkrok doesn't. TO's other firehydrants last year Simmonds, Kampf, Aston-Reese, Kerfoot, Lafferty, Brodie and Schenn. I would include Rielly in this group because he never lived up to his salary until the first round of the playoffs but in the 2nd round his play quality returned to his regular season level. Schenn might have some value but only on a 3rd pairing d unit with a partner like Gustafson or Timmins, players who can handle the puck since he can't, I actually doubt my own cred in saying this. I really don't want him back on TO, I get influenced by the mindless media.
#30
Main Leafs Hockey Talk / Re: The Core
June 14, 2023, 08:13:53 PM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 14, 2023, 03:11:58 PMPetrielli long article comes down to the conclusion that you leave Tavares where he is, as 2C.  He barely glances at the idea of moving him to the wing because it's hard to find PPG centers.  I think he misses the point here.  Tavares can just as easily be a PPG winger, and then you find a better-defensively 2C to pair him with. 

If they can manage to re-sign ROR to anchor a potent 3rd line (and if I'm Treliving I'd work hard to make that fit somehow — Petrielli says ROR is the best UFA center on the market) then I think it makes sense to shift Tavares to the wing.

Don't you think TO is slow enough, O'Reilly is already in his 30s and slowing down every year. TO used to have speed?

Petrielli also talks about the 2 player anchors on the top 3 lines, essentially what TO has been doing forever, maybe TO should load up a 1st line and see where that leads, Mitch passing to Matthews and Nylander instead of Matthews and Jarnkrok, Jarnkrok on any of the top 3 lines is a perfect example of a team's lack of depth and he's locked up for 3 more wonderful years, awesome.