Author Topic: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens  (Read 5158 times)

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Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #195 on: June 07, 2021, 08:46:26 PM »

Really at no point in the series did the Leafs play a game where they dominated the Habs in any meaningful way but were let down by their goalie and lost.

OT. Game 6.

Leafs Shots - 13
Habs Shots - 2

Online Guilt Trip

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #196 on: June 07, 2021, 09:04:23 PM »

Really at no point in the series did the Leafs play a game where they dominated the Habs in any meaningful way but were let down by their goalie and lost.

OT. Game 6.

Leafs Shots - 13
Habs Shots - 2
Mic drop....lol.

Offline Nik

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #197 on: June 07, 2021, 10:53:29 PM »

I...didnt think I'd have to explain to people what a hockey game is but there are always new challenges in life I suppose.
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Offline Bender

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #198 on: June 07, 2021, 11:04:27 PM »
Thoughts on this series

Good:
- Campbell was largely good and truly did enough over the course of the series to give the Leafs enough of a chance to win, which is quite different from previous years

I agree with most of what you had to say except this part. I feel that while Campbell made some good saves, he didn't stop the shots that he had to. That is not "giving a team an opportunity to win." I can think of at least 3 very critical goals that an NHL playoff winning goalie cannot let go into the back of his net. I realize that I've brought this up a couple times, but I don't think it's getting enough attention in the media. I get that Jack is a super nice guy and a real good teammate, but that means nothing when you lose game 7 after being up 3-1. Was he the sole reason they lost? Far from it. Matthews, Marner, Tavares injury, Muzzin injury, Foligno injury, the Leafs inability to change their game style are all contributing factors, but Campbell could have righted that with a couple "ordinary saves" when the team needed them the most.
There's big issues with the five hole goal from the top of the circle from Gallagher in Game 7. The 5 on 3 goal short side when all the Leafs needed was a stop. The deflected goal in OT after the Leafs outshot the habs 13-1. Those are the killers. Those are the goals/saves that mean the difference between a first round loss and a first round victory. If the Leafs go into next season with Campbell as their starter with no plan B, we will be having the same conversation next spring.
When your goalie posts a .920+ and has a better save percentage than the other guy then you're really overthinking the goaltending and under thinking the shooters.
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Offline Arn

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #199 on: June 08, 2021, 02:52:56 AM »
Well hey. At least we didn’t get swept.
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Offline L K

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #200 on: June 08, 2021, 09:37:45 AM »

Really at no point in the series did the Leafs play a game where they dominated the Habs in any meaningful way but were let down by their goalie and lost.

OT. Game 6.

Leafs Shots - 13
Habs Shots - 2

What part of a deflected shot was Campbell letting the team down?

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #201 on: June 08, 2021, 11:28:10 AM »

Really at no point in the series did the Leafs play a game where they dominated the Habs in any meaningful way but were let down by their goalie and lost.

OT. Game 6.

Leafs Shots - 13
Habs Shots - 2

What part of a deflected shot was Campbell letting the team down?

I watched the goal again. You're correct. For some reason I had it in my head that it was from further out. It's not as bad as I thought. It was horribly played by both Dermott(the giveaway) and Bogosian(why are you trying to play goalie?)

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #202 on: June 08, 2021, 11:30:02 AM »

I...didnt think I'd have to explain to people what a hockey game is but there are always new challenges in life I suppose.

LOL and this is why people have a hard time with Nik. I'm always up for someone explaining the game of hockey to me though.

Offline OldTimeHockey

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #203 on: June 08, 2021, 11:37:51 AM »
Thoughts on this series

Good:
- Campbell was largely good and truly did enough over the course of the series to give the Leafs enough of a chance to win, which is quite different from previous years

I agree with most of what you had to say except this part. I feel that while Campbell made some good saves, he didn't stop the shots that he had to. That is not "giving a team an opportunity to win." I can think of at least 3 very critical goals that an NHL playoff winning goalie cannot let go into the back of his net. I realize that I've brought this up a couple times, but I don't think it's getting enough attention in the media. I get that Jack is a super nice guy and a real good teammate, but that means nothing when you lose game 7 after being up 3-1. Was he the sole reason they lost? Far from it. Matthews, Marner, Tavares injury, Muzzin injury, Foligno injury, the Leafs inability to change their game style are all contributing factors, but Campbell could have righted that with a couple "ordinary saves" when the team needed them the most.
There's big issues with the five hole goal from the top of the circle from Gallagher in Game 7. The 5 on 3 goal short side when all the Leafs needed was a stop. The deflected goal in OT after the Leafs outshot the habs 13-1. Those are the killers. Those are the goals/saves that mean the difference between a first round loss and a first round victory. If the Leafs go into next season with Campbell as their starter with no plan B, we will be having the same conversation next spring.
When your goalie posts a .920+ and has a better save percentage than the other guy then you're really overthinking the goaltending and under thinking the shooters.

If I'm coming off that I'm putting all the blame at Campbell's feet, I apologize. Definitely not what I'm trying to get across. I just don't think Campbell should escape all blame. Like I've said before, being a goalie myself, I am a defender of the position in general. I just don't think Campbell is an NHL starter. I don't get the feeling that he's going to stop the shots when he has to.

I fully agree that Marner and Matthews have to be better. I fully agree that Thornton should have been in the pressbox. Keefe needs to be better. That's two playoff series in a row where he didn't adjust when what the Leafs were doing, clearly was not working.

(Side Note, Andersen put up a .936 last year against Columbus and a .922 vs Boston the year before yet he's categorized as being the exact same thing as I am pegging Campbell as. A goalie that can't make the big save at the right time. Yes I know it's a bigger sample size for Andersen)

Online Guilt Trip

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #204 on: June 08, 2021, 12:00:36 PM »
Thoughts on this series

Good:
- Campbell was largely good and truly did enough over the course of the series to give the Leafs enough of a chance to win, which is quite different from previous years

I agree with most of what you had to say except this part. I feel that while Campbell made some good saves, he didn't stop the shots that he had to. That is not "giving a team an opportunity to win." I can think of at least 3 very critical goals that an NHL playoff winning goalie cannot let go into the back of his net. I realize that I've brought this up a couple times, but I don't think it's getting enough attention in the media. I get that Jack is a super nice guy and a real good teammate, but that means nothing when you lose game 7 after being up 3-1. Was he the sole reason they lost? Far from it. Matthews, Marner, Tavares injury, Muzzin injury, Foligno injury, the Leafs inability to change their game style are all contributing factors, but Campbell could have righted that with a couple "ordinary saves" when the team needed them the most.
There's big issues with the five hole goal from the top of the circle from Gallagher in Game 7. The 5 on 3 goal short side when all the Leafs needed was a stop. The deflected goal in OT after the Leafs outshot the habs 13-1. Those are the killers. Those are the goals/saves that mean the difference between a first round loss and a first round victory. If the Leafs go into next season with Campbell as their starter with no plan B, we will be having the same conversation next spring.
When your goalie posts a .920+ and has a better save percentage than the other guy then you're really overthinking the goaltending and under thinking the shooters.

If I'm coming off that I'm putting all the blame at Campbell's feet, I apologize. Definitely not what I'm trying to get across. I just don't think Campbell should escape all blame. Like I've said before, being a goalie myself, I am a defender of the position in general. I just don't think Campbell is an NHL starter. I don't get the feeling that he's going to stop the shots when he has to.

I fully agree that Marner and Matthews have to be better. I fully agree that Thornton should have been in the pressbox. Keefe needs to be better. That's two playoff series in a row where he didn't adjust when what the Leafs were doing, clearly was not working.

(Side Note, Andersen put up a .936 last year against Columbus and a .922 vs Boston the year before yet he's categorized as being the exact same thing as I am pegging Campbell as. A goalie that can't make the big save at the right time. Yes I know it's a bigger sample size for Andersen)
I never took it that you were blaming Campbell for the Leafs exit. I don't think he was either but it seems he's been given a free pass on the stoppable goals. Freddie didn't get a pass despite putting up excellent numbers and letting in fewer cheapies.
I'm a goalie too so I tend to always defend them. I like Jack and I think he played very good but he has to share in the blame here. He didn't get it done and I agree with OldTime, the Leafs need to get a 1A goalie for next season or they could be in big trouble.
Anyway, the whole team needs to be better and so does the coaching staff.

Offline Bender

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #205 on: June 08, 2021, 01:05:11 PM »
Thoughts on this series

Good:
- Campbell was largely good and truly did enough over the course of the series to give the Leafs enough of a chance to win, which is quite different from previous years

I agree with most of what you had to say except this part. I feel that while Campbell made some good saves, he didn't stop the shots that he had to. That is not "giving a team an opportunity to win." I can think of at least 3 very critical goals that an NHL playoff winning goalie cannot let go into the back of his net. I realize that I've brought this up a couple times, but I don't think it's getting enough attention in the media. I get that Jack is a super nice guy and a real good teammate, but that means nothing when you lose game 7 after being up 3-1. Was he the sole reason they lost? Far from it. Matthews, Marner, Tavares injury, Muzzin injury, Foligno injury, the Leafs inability to change their game style are all contributing factors, but Campbell could have righted that with a couple "ordinary saves" when the team needed them the most.
There's big issues with the five hole goal from the top of the circle from Gallagher in Game 7. The 5 on 3 goal short side when all the Leafs needed was a stop. The deflected goal in OT after the Leafs outshot the habs 13-1. Those are the killers. Those are the goals/saves that mean the difference between a first round loss and a first round victory. If the Leafs go into next season with Campbell as their starter with no plan B, we will be having the same conversation next spring.
When your goalie posts a .920+ and has a better save percentage than the other guy then you're really overthinking the goaltending and under thinking the shooters.

If I'm coming off that I'm putting all the blame at Campbell's feet, I apologize. Definitely not what I'm trying to get across. I just don't think Campbell should escape all blame. Like I've said before, being a goalie myself, I am a defender of the position in general. I just don't think Campbell is an NHL starter. I don't get the feeling that he's going to stop the shots when he has to.

I fully agree that Marner and Matthews have to be better. I fully agree that Thornton should have been in the pressbox. Keefe needs to be better. That's two playoff series in a row where he didn't adjust when what the Leafs were doing, clearly was not working.

(Side Note, Andersen put up a .936 last year against Columbus and a .922 vs Boston the year before yet he's categorized as being the exact same thing as I am pegging Campbell as. A goalie that can't make the big save at the right time. Yes I know it's a bigger sample size for Andersen)
It's still mostly the shooting just like it was last year, it just is. I get the need for a timely save but this is a 5 or 7 game series and if you're forced to make every timely save and your team gives you no run support and therefore no margin of error (and you ignore goals that should've gone in but were saved) then I'm not really sure what more there is to do. Put the puck in the net just one more time than they did in Game 5 & 6 and this conversation doesn't even happen.
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Offline Nik

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #206 on: June 08, 2021, 01:58:29 PM »
LOL and this is why people have a hard time with Nik. I'm always up for someone explaining the game of hockey to me though.

I really thought "the Leafs didn't play a game where they dominated the Habs but lost" was fairly straightforward. "Oh yeah, well here's a small stretch of game 6 where they badly outshot the Habs but lost because of a deflected goal" was not a particularly solid rebuttal but if that's why people have a hard time with me I suppose that's my cross to bear.
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Offline Nik

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #207 on: June 08, 2021, 02:02:37 PM »
It's still mostly the shooting just like it was last year, it just is. I get the need for a timely save but this is a 5 or 7 game series and if you're forced to make every timely save and your team gives you no run support and therefore no margin of error (and you ignore goals that should've gone in but were saved) then I'm not really sure what more there is to do. Put the puck in the net just one more time than they did in Game 5 & 6 and this conversation doesn't even happen.

Yeah, also it defines "can't make the big save" as "can't make every single big save". I'm pretty sure Campbell did, in fact, make some big saves. The standard here isn't a particularly fair one and doesn't legitimately contrast Campbell to lots and lots of goalies who have won playoff series being less good than he was. The difference between goalies who win series and goalies who don't is not whether or not they ever let in goalies that theoretically could have been stopped.
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #208 on: June 08, 2021, 03:04:25 PM »
Yeah, also it defines "can't make the big save" as "can't make every single big save". I'm pretty sure Campbell did, in fact, make some big saves. The standard here isn't a particularly fair one and doesn't legitimately contrast Campbell to lots and lots of goalies who have won playoff series being less good than he was. The difference between goalies who win series and goalies who don't is not whether or not they ever let in goalies that theoretically could have been stopped.

Agreed. Quite frankly, Campbell is the only reason game 5 wasn't completely out of hand before the end of the 1st period. Same can be said of the most of games 6 and 7. Did he let in some goals he'd like back? Sure, every goalie does - win or lose - but, at the same time, because of his play, the Leafs had a chance to win every single game of this series, and that's all you can reasonably expect of any goalie. If they showed up before the 3rd period in any of the final 3 games, the Leafs knock off the Habs with relative ease.

Whether or not he's a starting goalie moving forward is an open question, but, of all the players who saw the ice for the Leafs in more than one game this series, he shoulders the least amount of blame.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:06:41 PM by bustaheims »
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Online Guilt Trip

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Re: Round 1: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens
« Reply #209 on: June 08, 2021, 04:17:59 PM »
Quite frankly, Campbell is the only reason game 5 wasn't completely out of hand before the end of the 1st period.
That was actually game 6. Game 5 he wasn't good on goals 2 and 3.