Author Topic: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis  (Read 17848 times)

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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2021, 12:27:05 PM »
I'd like to move away from planting a stationary player in front of the goalie on the PP. Sort of neutralizes the 5-on-4 advantage (and even strength OZ cycles) if one guy is just standing there waiting for pucks to whizz by.

Sure, but you gotta work with the talent you've got. If that's the best setup for one of your PP groups, you gotta make the best of it.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2021, 12:28:53 PM »
The plant himself in front of the goalie and take away their line of site, and maybe bat in some rebounds - kind of like what Tomas Holmstrom did for Detroit.
Then why did people witch that Thornton was on PP1 doing that? Last I checked he scored a PP goal and was in front of the net when Sandin scored his.

Offline L K

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2021, 12:29:17 PM »
I'd like to move away from planting a stationary player in front of the goalie on the PP. Sort of neutralizes the 5-on-4 advantage (and even strength OZ cycles) if one guy is just standing there waiting for pucks to whizz by.

Sure, but you gotta work with the talent you've got. If that's the best setup for one of your PP groups, you gotta make the best of it.

I think that's fine if you have Tavares sitting there who can finish in front of the net and make good deflections.  I would agree though that I would like to see more movement on the powerplay.  Not just puck movement but player movement as well.  Don't have everyone fixed the to the same 3 foot radius...especially if you aren't going to have shooting threats on the blueline.

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2021, 12:31:27 PM »
I'd like to move away from planting a stationary player in front of the goalie on the PP. Sort of neutralizes the 5-on-4 advantage (and even strength OZ cycles) if one guy is just standing there waiting for pucks to whizz by.

Sure, but you gotta work with the talent you've got. If that's the best setup for one of your PP groups, you gotta make the best of it.
They have the talent to have a lower guy moving around. Willy would work there and so would Marner.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2021, 02:11:19 PM »
Not really, he should produce more playing with them. It's pretty simple.

He had 18 points in 18 games with them.

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2021, 03:05:28 PM »
...
To LAK: Mitch Marner (signing bonus paid, 4x 10.903M), Morgan Rielly (1x 5M)
To TOR: 2022 1st, Quinton Byfield, Akil Thomas, Olli Maataa, Matt Roy, whatever buriable spare parts they want to dump
...

Well, that would certainly help with the prospect pool, though I don't think it's nearly enough value for Marner.

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2021, 03:05:56 PM »
Not really, he should produce more playing with them. It's pretty simple.

He had 18 points in 18 games with them.
How many in the playoffs, you know, when it matters? 5 points the last 3 years for Hyman. And let's be honest, that goal he got this year was going in without the aid of him barely touching it.
He has the same amount of points as Spezza who's played here only the last 2 years(7 games less).
1 more point then Galchenyuk had this playoffs, so 12 less games, 11mins less per game and no PP time.
1 more point then Dermott in 4 less games with no PP time..
1 more then Johnsson in 11 less games and we shipped him out.
He was 17th in P/60 yet 4th in ice time, 3rd in PP time, in these playoffs. That's not good enough to warrant being on the top line and certainly not good enough to get a big raise either.

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2021, 03:15:38 PM »
Not really, he should produce more playing with them. It's pretty simple.

He had 18 points in 18 games with them.
How many in the playoffs, you know, when it matters? 5 points the last 3 years for Hyman. And let's be honest, that goal he got this year was going in without the aid of him barely touching it.
He has the same amount of points as Spezza who's played here only the last 2 years(7 games less).
1 more point then Galchenyuk had this playoffs, so 12 less games, 11mins less per game and no PP time.
1 more point then Dermott in 4 less games with no PP time..
1 more then Johnsson in 11 less games and we shipped him out.
He was 17th in P/60 yet 4th in ice time, 3rd in PP time, in these playoffs. That's not good enough to warrant being on the top line and certainly not good enough to get a big raise either.

So to be clear we've gone from:

"Hyman doesn't produce enough" -> Actually scored at a 60 point pace for the last 2 seasons which is pretty good

"Ok but he should produce more with M&M" -> Actually scored at a 31 goal, 82 point pace when on their line this season (probably not sustainable but impressive nonetheless)

"Ok ok FINE but he didn't produce enough in the playoffs" -> Well if we're gonna start making decisions on that I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend $10,903,000.

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2021, 03:38:25 PM »
Not really, he should produce more playing with them. It's pretty simple.

He had 18 points in 18 games with them.
How many in the playoffs, you know, when it matters? 5 points the last 3 years for Hyman. And let's be honest, that goal he got this year was going in without the aid of him barely touching it.
He has the same amount of points as Spezza who's played here only the last 2 years(7 games less).
1 more point then Galchenyuk had this playoffs, so 12 less games, 11mins less per game and no PP time.
1 more point then Dermott in 4 less games with no PP time..
1 more then Johnsson in 11 less games and we shipped him out.
He was 17th in P/60 yet 4th in ice time, 3rd in PP time, in these playoffs. That's not good enough to warrant being on the top line and certainly not good enough to get a big raise either.

So to be clear we've gone from:

"Hyman doesn't produce enough" -> Actually scored at a 60 point pace for the last 2 seasons which is pretty good

"Ok but he should produce more with M&M" -> Actually scored at a 31 goal, 82 point pace when on their line this season (probably not sustainable but impressive nonetheless)

"Ok ok FINE but he didn't produce enough in the playoffs" -> Well if we're gonna start making decisions on that I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend $10,903,000.
It actually started from this....
~4.5 for Hyman? That's a huge overpay for what he brings. Listen I love his work ethic but the way he's over valued is beyond nuts. He's not a 1st line player and he's not worth what some are mentioning. He has 5 pts in his last 3 playoffs playing with M&M. He had 2 more 5v5 goals then Mikheyev and Engvall.~
Notice how the playoffs are mentioned? Let's make it crystal clear for everybody then. HE DOESN'T PRODUCE ENOUGH IN THE PLAYOFFS TO WARRANT BEING ON THE TOP LINE....?

As for his regular season points..Would Marner still put up the points he did without Matthews, Hyman? Why yes he probably would. Would Matthews still score lots of goals without Marner, Hyman? Ah, yup he has in the past. Would Hyman put up those numbers without M&M? Not a chance. He's totally benefited from paying with those elite guys...we need better on that line especially in the playoffs.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 03:47:31 PM by Guilt Trip »

Offline Chris

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2021, 04:02:06 PM »
How many points would Marner get if he wasn't playing with a Matthews or Tavares? Can he drive his own line and significantly elevate lesser players? What if you put him with Engvall and Mikheyev. Matthews would probably still score 40 playing with them. Would Marner still get 90 points?  80? 40?

An almost $11 million player should be able to produce without being tethered to a Matthews or Tavares. Could Marner do that? This is all hypothetical of course since the team was built to take advantage of the pairs (M&M and JT/WN).

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2021, 04:07:16 PM »
How many points would Marner get if he wasn't playing with a Matthews or Tavares? Can he drive his own line and significantly elevate lesser players? What if you put him with Engvall and Mikheyev. Matthews would probably still score 40 playing with them. Would Marner still get 90 points?  80? 40?

An almost $11 million player should be able to produce without being tethered to a Matthews or Tavares. Could Marner do that? This is all hypothetical of course since the team was built to take advantage of the pairs (M&M and JT/WN).
Marner was putting up points when Babs used to put him on the 4th line with Matt Martin, remember? He's a type of player that can drive a line.

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2021, 04:28:23 PM »
How many points would Marner get if he wasn't playing with a Matthews or Tavares? Can he drive his own line and significantly elevate lesser players? What if you put him with Engvall and Mikheyev. Matthews would probably still score 40 playing with them. Would Marner still get 90 points?  80? 40?

An almost $11 million player should be able to produce without being tethered to a Matthews or Tavares. Could Marner do that? This is all hypothetical of course since the team was built to take advantage of the pairs (M&M and JT/WN).

The answer is yes.

Offline wnc096

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2021, 04:39:29 PM »
How many points would Marner get if he wasn't playing with a Matthews or Tavares? Can he drive his own line and significantly elevate lesser players? What if you put him with Engvall and Mikheyev. Matthews would probably still score 40 playing with them. Would Marner still get 90 points?  80? 40?

An almost $11 million player should be able to produce without being tethered to a Matthews or Tavares. Could Marner do that? This is all hypothetical of course since the team was built to take advantage of the pairs (M&M and JT/WN).

Yes he would.  He's a legit star player.  He just needed to adjust his game for playoff hockey.   He couldn't dangle his way through defenders, he and Matthews need to adapt

Offline L K

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2021, 04:42:16 PM »
Hyman-Matthews-Marner - 291.6 minutes - 21 goals for (4.32/60) - 8 goals against (1.65/60)

Matthews-Marner - 393.5 minutes - 24 goals for (3.67/60) - 12 goals against (1.83/60)

Matthews - 19.9 minutes - 1 goal for (3.01/60), 0 against

Hyman-Marner - 25.2 minutes - 0 goals for and 1 goal against (2.38/60)

Hyman - 227 minutes - 10 goals for (2.64/60) , 4 against (1.06/60)

Marner - 42.6 minutes - 2 goal for (2.82/60), 4 against (5.63/60)

Their numbers together are clearly better than separated although some of the separations are definitely too small to really make judgements on them.  Also something doesn't seem perfectly right with the numbers from Moneypuck as the toi seems low.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 04:45:33 PM by L K »

Offline Nik

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Re: Armchair GM 2021-2022: Catharsis
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2021, 05:27:38 PM »
He just needed to adjust his game for playoff hockey.   

Like, I'm the first guy to admit Marner wasn't great in the playoffs but I think it's also important to point out that he has been good in the past. Prior to this year he had 21 points in 25 career playoff games. Again, not outstanding, but I think it's a far cry from what some people are saying where he's incapable of the mental toughness required for playing good hockey in the playoffs. I remember a lot of people here saying he was the team's best player in the loss against the Bruins in 2018.
I wish to hell I’d never said "Winning isn’t everything it’s the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you’ve won.
- Vince Lombardi