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Just for Fun => Non-Hockey Chatter => Topic started by: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 01:36:49 PM

Title: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 01:36:49 PM
Thought it may be a good idea to start a thread on what is going on in Europe. Definitely scary stuff and very concerning about further escalation.  I don't believe a conventional war is possible when the nuclear option is at everyone's fingertips. My wife is from the UK and is freaking out over this.  I know we can't control this but it may be good to have an outlet for us to discuss our concerns.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: princedpw on February 24, 2022, 02:10:13 PM
Tragic. Unnecessary and unconscionable loss of life, destruction of property, impoverishment if people.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Dappleganger on February 24, 2022, 02:11:56 PM
Quote from: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 01:36:49 PM
Thought it may be a good idea to start a thread on what is going on in Europe. Definitely scary stuff and very concerning about further escalation.  I don't believe a conventional war is possible when the nuclear option is at everyone's fingertips. My wife is from the UK and is freaking out over this.  I know we can't control this but it may be good to have an outlet for us to discuss our concerns.

Speaking of nukes, Ukraine is the only country to give up their nuclear arsenal.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 02:12:44 PM
They just seized the Chernobyl Nuclear Plant, so under Russian Army control.  Anyone have any idea what Putin wants with that?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 24, 2022, 02:26:05 PM
So I know this may seem minor to some people but the country is Ukraine. Not "The" Ukraine. Referring to it as "the" Ukraine is something Russians do to de-emphasize its status as an independent nation rather than an area or region that belongs to Russia.

https://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/ (https://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/)
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 02:33:17 PM
Thanks for the clarification Nik, no offence was intended. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 24, 2022, 02:36:12 PM
Quote from: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 02:33:17 PM
Thanks for the clarification Nik, no offence was intended.

None taken. It's something I did myself in the past until I was educated by one of my best and oldest friends who's of Ukrainian heritage and still has family there.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 24, 2022, 03:18:05 PM

Something worth noting is that for all the sanctions being announced they're not really going after Putin's wealth or that of his cronies. These are hundreds of billions of dollars, stolen from the Russian economy, that are used to buy real estate in Western countriees, luxuries and used as political contributions. This would be what would really put the squeeze on Putin but because it also threatens business interests in the west, they're opting instead for sanctions that will make life harder for Russian people.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on February 24, 2022, 03:36:50 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 24, 2022, 03:18:05 PM

Something worth noting is that for all the sanctions being announced they're not really going after Putin's wealth or that of his cronies. These are hundreds of billions of dollars, stolen from the Russian economy, that are used to buy real estate in Western countriees, luxuries and used as political contributions. This would be what would really put the squeeze on Putin but because it also threatens business interests in the west, they're opting instead for sanctions that will make life harder for Russian people.

This is the way this constantly works. 

Lots of stolen assets are around the globe.  A significant portion of stolen money is in Switzerland and they have continued their claim of being "neutral"

This has really been an awful day.  I had good communication lines with family through the night but haven't been able to stay in touch as the day has gone on. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on February 24, 2022, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 02:12:44 PM
They just seized the Chernobyl Nuclear Plant, so under Russian Army control.  Anyone have any idea what Putin wants with that?

Probably doesn't want to risk technological improvements leading to western government being better able to poke around and discover something that's not supposed to be there. Or, maybe he just wants to pave over the place to hide a major failing of the USSR.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: L K on February 24, 2022, 03:36:50 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 24, 2022, 03:18:05 PM

Something worth noting is that for all the sanctions being announced they're not really going after Putin's wealth or that of his cronies. These are hundreds of billions of dollars, stolen from the Russian economy, that are used to buy real estate in Western countriees, luxuries and used as political contributions. This would be what would really put the squeeze on Putin but because it also threatens business interests in the west, they're opting instead for sanctions that will make life harder for Russian people.

This is the way this constantly works. 

Lots of stolen assets are around the globe.  A significant portion of stolen money is in Switzerland and they have continued their claim of being "neutral"

This has really been an awful day.  I had good communication lines with family through the night but haven't been able to stay in touch as the day has gone on.
I am sorry to hear of your problems communicating with your family. I pray that everything is Ok with them. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Rob on February 24, 2022, 04:28:10 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on February 24, 2022, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: Highlander on February 24, 2022, 02:12:44 PM
They just seized the Chernobyl Nuclear Plant, so under Russian Army control.  Anyone have any idea what Putin wants with that?

Probably doesn't want to risk technological improvements leading to western government being better able to poke around and discover something that's not supposed to be there. Or, maybe he just wants to pave over the place to hide a major failing of the USSR.

They want the Uranium, or to prevent Ukraine from using is to make dirty bombs.  There is "spent" nuclear fuel on site and I know they were building a dry storage facility on site to store spent nuclear fuel from all over Ukraine.  Not sure if it's operational yet but there could be potentialy hundreds upon hundreds of tons of uranium in Chernobyl. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: LittleHockeyFan on February 24, 2022, 07:22:51 PM
thank you Nik. You beat me to it :) 

I've gone through and removed all the 'the' from the posts cause, well, as one married to a Ukrainian, it really grates for just the reason Nik mentioned.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: azzurri63 on February 24, 2022, 08:22:44 PM
Putins a twit and after reading what he said if true about what will be done if there is any interference from abroad is deeply concerning. Guys a lunatic. Whether he's all talk or is capable of starting something more worrisome is troubling.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on February 24, 2022, 09:37:55 PM
Quote from: azzurri63 on February 24, 2022, 08:22:44 PM
Putins a twit and after reading what he said if true about what will be done if there is any interference from abroad is deeply concerning. Guys a lunatic. Whether he's all talk or is capable of starting something more worrisome is troubling.

The idea that he's there to "denazify" a country with a Jewish president is so laughable, it's insulting.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on February 25, 2022, 12:43:07 AM
Wild that they're already outside Kyiv. That seems extremely fast and also very depressing.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Peter D. on February 25, 2022, 11:41:18 AM
There was that one shot of Putin on TV, I believe the one in the office when he was announcing the invasion, where he looked like a pure lunatic.  You could just see the craziness in his eyes and face.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 25, 2022, 12:18:38 PM
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842

He says NATO when he means Moscow but, again, the Italian PM wanted to make sure the sale of Gucci and Prada weren't affected.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Frank E on February 25, 2022, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 25, 2022, 12:18:38 PM
https://twitter.com/Barnes_Joe/status/1497194009038626842

He says NATO when he means Moscow but, again, the Italian PM wanted to make sure the sale of Gucci and Prada weren't affected.

I think they'd just source them from China anyways...I'd bet this has more to do with Ferrari and Lamborghini.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 25, 2022, 05:35:02 PM

With the threats now about Sweden and Finland, it's pretty clear Russia's grand scheme is to halt the expansion of NATO by proving the necessity and value in joining NATO.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on February 26, 2022, 08:47:43 PM
https://twitter.com/douglaschu_/status/1497642246203748353
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on February 26, 2022, 10:47:49 PM
Quote from: herman on February 26, 2022, 08:47:43 PM
https://twitter.com/douglaschu_/status/1497642246203748353
In some ways yes but this isn't much different than what happened during WWII.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on February 27, 2022, 11:29:20 PM
https://twitter.com/amyspiro/status/1498085663786344452

https://twitter.com/franklinleonard/status/1498018986197327877

Man, what a life this guy's led.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: princedpw on February 28, 2022, 12:11:24 AM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on February 27, 2022, 11:29:20 PM
https://twitter.com/amyspiro/status/1498085663786344452

https://twitter.com/franklinleonard/status/1498018986197327877

Man, what a life this guy's led.

Take a look at this:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/volodymyr-zelensky-ukraine-president/622938/

Hard to know if it is true but the narrative is that his personal plea and putting his life on the line turned the political tide against Russia in EU negotiations. 

(He put his life beyond on the line — he is a dead man walking. Russia will kill him. It is a short matter of time.  His bravery is through the roof.)
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on February 28, 2022, 06:25:34 AM
So.  We have a drama teacher for a prime minister who hid for a weekand called a bunch of protesters names.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on February 28, 2022, 09:21:47 AM
Yes you have already established you stupid views in the other thread.  Leave it out of this one
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Guilt Trip on February 28, 2022, 09:31:32 AM
Quote from: L K on February 28, 2022, 09:21:47 AM
Yes you have already established you stupid views in the other thread.  Leave it out of this one
Agree...
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on February 28, 2022, 10:00:45 AM
Quote from: berserker on February 28, 2022, 06:25:34 AM
So.  We have a drama teacher for a prime minister who hid for a weekand called a bunch of protesters names.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on February 28, 2022, 10:39:23 AM
Oh no opposing views . Very Liberal of you
Let's all join hands and smoke a fatty.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on February 28, 2022, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on February 27, 2022, 11:29:20 PM
https://twitter.com/amyspiro/status/1498085663786344452

https://twitter.com/franklinleonard/status/1498018986197327877

Man, what a life this guy's led.

Don't forget he played the President of Ukraine in a satirical tv series called Servant of the People lampooning political corruption; and then shortly after, ran for the presidency for real.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on February 28, 2022, 10:44:29 AM
Meanwhile we are still importing a million dolla s worth of oil a day from Russia. Instead of using our own oil we help fund a war at a tune of 1 million per day
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on February 28, 2022, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: berserker on February 28, 2022, 10:39:23 AM
Oh no opposing views . Very Liberal of you
Let's all join hands and smoke a fatty.
This is about Ukraine, not about your own hangups about the federal government.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on February 28, 2022, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: berserker on February 28, 2022, 10:39:23 AM
Oh no opposing views . Very Liberal of you
Let's all join hands and smoke a fatty.

You're just not as good a comedian as Zelensky used to be. Don't quit your day job or run for office.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: louisstamos on February 28, 2022, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: berserker on February 28, 2022, 10:39:23 AM
Oh no opposing views . Very Liberal of you
Let's all join hands and smoke a fatty.

"Murder should be illegal"

"No, murder should be legal."

"Welp, I guess I have to accept these opposing views..."
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on February 28, 2022, 12:09:01 PM
Yes, it's clearly about liberal views and not your callus co-opting of a thread about a war to push your stupid politics. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 28, 2022, 01:34:45 PM

After being roundly criticized for their decision to let Russia continue with qualifying for the World Cup over the weekend, FIFA has reversed course and kicked them out of the tournament.

And good ol' 99 has urged the IIHF to do the same to their WJC team for the rescheduling of the World Juniors. Hopefully, they do.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on February 28, 2022, 01:48:49 PM
So importing 1 million dollars of oil a day from
Russia is not about the Ukraine ?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 28, 2022, 02:00:58 PM
Quote from: berserker on February 28, 2022, 01:48:49 PM
So importing 1 million dollars of oil a day from
Russia is not about the Ukraine ?

I think the objection is more about your earlier inaccurate and entirely off-topic post about Trudeau than about the oil claim. Thing is, Canada(or any country) can't just fundamentally change their oil consumption in a short period of time. Contracts for alternate sources need to be negotiated and signed and, if the answer is internal, then infrastructure needs to be built to support that which likewise can't happen overnight.

If the argument is then why didn't we more aggressively pursue internal production for domestic use prior to this then we get back to the reality that climate change is a real concern and that "more oil production" (Especially from the oil sands) is not a cost-effective or environmentally sound long term solution. Or at least that debate, anyway, which exists independently of Russia's invasion.

So, no, that really isn't anything to do with the on-going invasion in Ukraine(again, not "the" Ukraine). While there is a larger discussion to be had about energy independence it is not immediately addressable and at best could be seen as an attempt to change the subject from the deadly attack on Ukrainian civilians happening at this very moment. Provided your intention is anything other than cynically using the current situation to criticize our sitting government it is neither relevant nor constructive to say nothing of displaying any actual empathy.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on February 28, 2022, 02:32:17 PM
The West has completely decapitated the Russian financial system, totally.  Putin and his cronies are now threatening the nuclear option.  It's getting really concerning.  Switzerland has told the world they are siding with the West and this is a country that has always been neutral.

How can Russia back out and not lose face completely?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 28, 2022, 02:00:58 PM
Quote from: berserker on February 28, 2022, 01:48:49 PM
So importing 1 million dollars of oil a day from
Russia is not about the Ukraine ?

I think the objection is more about your earlier inaccurate and entirely off-topic post about Trudeau than about the oil claim. Thing is, Canada(or any country) can't just fundamentally change their oil consumption in a short period of time. Contracts for alternate sources need to be negotiated and signed and, if the answer is internal, then infrastructure needs to be built to support that which likewise can't happen overnight.

If the argument is then why didn't we more aggressively pursue internal production for domestic use prior to this then we get back to the reality that climate change is a real concern and that "more oil production" (Especially from the oil sands) is not a cost-effective or environmentally sound long term solution. Or at least that debate, anyway, which exists independently of Russia's invasion.

So, no, that really isn't anything to do with the on-going invasion in Ukraine(again, not "the" Ukraine). While there is a larger discussion to be had about energy independence it is not immediately addressable and at best could be seen as an attempt to change the subject from the deadly attack on Ukrainian civilians happening at this very moment. Provided your intention is anything other than cynically using the current situation to criticize our sitting government it is neither relevant nor constructive to say nothing of displaying any actual empathy.


Also, a ban on Russian oil would cause a protest of people that have been inconvienced by higher gas prices. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 28, 2022, 02:58:10 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 02:42:42 PM
Also, a ban on Russian oil would cause a protest of people that have been inconvienced by higher gas prices.

In the short term, absolutely. People do need to keep in mind that sanctions don't just hurt Russia or the Russian people. Enacting them is a conscious decision to put our ethics above our wallets. Certain things, things produced by Russia and Ukraine, are bound to be more expensive until this matter comes to a resolution.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 28, 2022, 02:58:10 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 02:42:42 PM
Also, a ban on Russian oil would cause a protest of people that have been inconvienced by higher gas prices.

In the short term, absolutely. People do need to keep in mind that sanctions don't just hurt Russia or the Russian people. Enacting them is a conscious decision to put our ethics above our wallets. Certain things, things produced by Russia and Ukraine, are bound to be more expensive until this matter comes to a resolution.

Dem truckers need gas. They'll be back in Ottawa in a week, costing Canada even more money. We're clearly not the country to say we don't have a minority willing to honk loudly when our government choses our ethics over our wallets.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 28, 2022, 03:22:19 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 03:06:51 PM
Dem truckers need gas. They'll be back in Ottawa in a week, costing Canada even more money. We're clearly not the country to say we don't have a minority willing to honk loudly when our government choses our ethics over our wallets.

For what it's worth, I don't want to be dismissive of those concerns. Truth is a lot of people are feeling a financial pinch right now and it's bound to get worse. I empathize with people seeing the cost of filling their tanks going up and their grocery bills increasing and their rents being hiked. It's a tough time for a lot of people.

But there's another truth that for a long time we've been a society that basically looked the other way at a lot of awful stuff happening around the world, whether it be to people or animals or the environment, so long as it meant cheap food and consumer goods. It's not, and never has been, sustainable.

I don't want to change the subject here. We should be talking about the current invasion of Ukraine and what we can do to show our support to the Ukrainian people(and the Russians bravely protesting against the actions of their government) but I do hope that this creates more awareness and reflection on what that .92/L gas price actually meant and how we should think of it going forward.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on February 28, 2022, 04:52:45 PM
Nic you have a well thought out post.
And I enjoyed the read . But I tend to agree more with Tristin Hopper of The National Post.
Forget the vodka , why isn't Canada banning Russian oil ?   
Long term short term we are too dependent on
Foreign oil , for no reason.
My thought and prayers are with the Ukraine
but what happens if it expands into one of the neighboring countries that are part of NATO
It will become a fight we will have to join .
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 04:55:19 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 28, 2022, 03:22:19 PM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on February 28, 2022, 03:06:51 PM
Dem truckers need gas. They'll be back in Ottawa in a week, costing Canada even more money. We're clearly not the country to say we don't have a minority willing to honk loudly when our government choses our ethics over our wallets.

For what it's worth, I don't want to be dismissive of those concerns. Truth is a lot of people are feeling a financial pinch right now and it's bound to get worse. I empathize with people seeing the cost of filling their tanks going up and their grocery bills increasing and their rents being hiked. It's a tough time for a lot of people.

But there's another truth that for a long time we've been a society that basically looked the other way at a lot of awful stuff happening around the world, whether it be to people or animals or the environment, so long as it meant cheap food and consumer goods. It's not, and never has been, sustainable.

I don't want to change the subject here. We should be talking about the current invasion of Ukraine and what we can do to show our support to the Ukrainian people(and the Russians bravely protesting against the actions of their government) but I do hope that this creates more awareness and reflection on what that .92/L gas price actually meant and how we should think of it going forward.

I agree with you, I'm mostly being a bitter a$$. These leaps of logic just annoy the hell out of me. If we did really sanction Russian oil, it would take time to implement and support. Hell, it may even be in progress.

Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 28, 2022, 05:33:17 PM
https://twitter.com/mpotkins/status/1498410128537624576

Ask and ye shall receive.

Edit: And the IIHF acted as well

https://twitter.com/IIHFHockey/status/1498387598246621188
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on February 28, 2022, 08:18:47 PM
I guess it was as easy as turning off the Russian Tap.   High 5 Mr Trudeau.
Now if we can turn another page and recognize
the need for a Canada East pipeline.
Oh and P.S   
Turn on the western Canada oil fields.
Let's get western Canada into this oil boom .
Don't worry the transfer payment will also flow
to Eastern Canada


Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on February 28, 2022, 08:42:50 PM
https://twitter.com/Morgan_C_Ross/status/1498285282822606855?t=5o4z7sCZq9spctCYVeqHpw&s=19

Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on February 28, 2022, 10:27:37 PM

So it seems as though the claim of Canada importing a significant amount of Oil from Russia is largely untrue and that this ban won't really affect much. Apparently most of what we "import" from Russia is actually refined petroleum that we buy from the US who refines Russian crude oil. We don't import significant amounts of Russian crude oil.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Deebo on February 28, 2022, 10:29:01 PM
Quote from: Nik on February 28, 2022, 10:27:37 PM

So it seems as though the claim of Canada importing a significant amount of Oil from Russia is largely untrue and that this ban won't really affect much. Apparently most of what we "import" from Russia is actually refined petroleum that we buy from the US who refines Russian crude oil. We don't import significant amounts of Russian crude oil.

https://twitter.com/BizCouncilAB/status/1498329239308886019
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on March 01, 2022, 05:19:26 PM
CCM to stop using Ovechkin, other Russian players in global marketing
https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/2298220

I don't know how I feel about this... not all Russian hockey players are in support of the war in Ukraine, so hopefully it's not just a blanket issue for Russian NHLers.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: OldTimeHockey on March 01, 2022, 05:22:16 PM

FIA will allow Mazepin to race under a neutral flag.
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/nikita-mazepin-fia-allow-russian-204035051.html
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 01, 2022, 05:25:40 PM
Ovechkin himself has, over the years, been pretty vocally pro-Putin so I don't think it's unfair in his case.

In the case of other Russians I think you have to look at the entirety of the picture. The "defense" of Ovechkin is that he can't say anything negative about Putin because it would put his family in danger. If that's a legit fear than any Russian player would effectively not be able to denounce Putin. At which point, you effectively have an apologist for Putin endorsing your brand even if it may be for an understandable reason. If you're a hockey gear manufacturer selling in Canada or the US and the like, why not just go out and hire a product endorser who doesn't have that whole issue?

It may not be "fair" exactly but nobody has the right to endorse products for large sums of money and these sorts of things factor into decisions like this all the time.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on March 01, 2022, 08:46:44 PM
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-sanctions-chrystia-freeland-russia-1.6369310
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 09:49:43 PM
Thank you  Deebo
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 01, 2022, 09:54:45 PM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 09:49:43 PM
Thank you  Deebo

Are you sure you're looking at the right chart? Deebo's seems to confirm that in 5 of the last 8 years we imported no crude oil from Russia and in two of the other three it was under 100 million dollar's worth.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 10:09:50 PM
I see 350 million and over 800 million 2019
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 10:16:15 PM
Read the attachment crude or refined it still came out of the ground in Russia.
And environmental concern there are probably
not a big deal like in Canada .  I would trust our environmental welfare more in the even so called dirty oil sands.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Joe on March 01, 2022, 10:45:44 PM
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassyC/status/1498816008756383744?s=20&t=rsi0QMd68EOF3-paQ5aRow

They.... They put denazify in writing?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 01, 2022, 10:56:14 PM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 10:16:15 PM
Read the attachment crude or refined it still came out of the ground in Russia.

I did read it and the ban enacted only bans crude oil. It doesn't ban refined petroleum which we'll still be importing
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:12:33 PM
Ok I take back the high 5 for Mr Trudeau
We have refineries in Canada . Let's get the
Pipeline built and Eastern Canada can use
our Canadian Oil . Why import at all crude,
refined or whatever the case. If you are filling up your car ask yourself Where did this come from?   
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 01, 2022, 11:13:38 PM
Did you know that most of Canada's refineries are not capable of the specialized processes required for handling the oil sands bitumen?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:19:04 PM
I don't know that for sure but   I can't make a quick statement on that . But if there is a need and a market . I am sure one can be built.
And Eastern Canada is a market. Like it or not

Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:21:46 PM
I am sorry this has gotten away from the topic of the Ukraine
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:24:50 PM
Goodnight All. This redneck has to go to bed
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 01, 2022, 11:29:56 PM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:19:04 PMI am sure one can be built.

It kind of feels like you don't actually know a great deal about the complicated topic at hand here.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:45:24 PM
Yes Nik no one is as smart as you .
But Google is a wonderful thing .
After a few minutes I can agree with you or call bull#$#% on most everything. Usually there is
2 or 3 versions of any topic and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle .
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 01, 2022, 11:59:03 PM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:45:24 PM
Yes Nik no one is as smart as you .

Smart or not, I actually know very little about the process of extracting crude oil and refining it into petroleum, both in terms of the technical aspect of it and the geopolitical realities of it. That lack of knowledge is why I probably wouldn't have tried to shift the topic from the war in Ukraine to a criticism of our country's energy policy as I tend to find that when I speak forcefully on topics I'm not all that educated on I end up sounding a little ridiculous. It's why I do my best not to do it.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't necessarily rely on Google for complicated subjects.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on March 02, 2022, 01:37:25 AM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:12:33 PM
Ok I take back the high 5 for Mr Trudeau
We have refineries in Canada . Let's get the
Pipeline built and Eastern Canada can use
our Canadian Oil . Why import at all crude,
refined or whatever the case. If you are filling up your car ask yourself Where did this come from?
They are banning the import of Russian oil and petroleum. Isn't that what you wanted?

Whether something can be built and whether it makes economic sense to build and produce domestically vs. trade are different things and is a very, very long discussion, and can take a very long time to implement into policy etc.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 02, 2022, 04:38:37 AM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:21:46 PM
I am sorry this has gotten away from the topic of the Ukraine

Again, it's Ukraine. Not "the" Ukraine.

If your ignorance can't even allow you to get over that simple fact then there's no point in engaging with the rest of your "arguments".

Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: berserker on March 02, 2022, 06:32:56 AM
Anyway I feel sorry for Ukraine and I am happy
we are  no longer spending a million a day on Russian oil. Taps turned off rather quickly.  Do not know how that was done. Great morning read off to work
I go .   Lol
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bullfrog on March 02, 2022, 09:12:17 AM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:45:24 PM
... Usually there is
2 or 3 versions of any topic and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle .

As an aside -- and not directed at you -- I'm always frustrated by this type of statement. It's a wishy-washy way of saying "maybe we're both right?" It's like when they have a climate change expert on TV debating with a someone who once took a high school science class.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 02, 2022, 09:49:32 AM
Quote from: Bullfrog on March 02, 2022, 09:12:17 AM
Quote from: berserker on March 01, 2022, 11:45:24 PM
... Usually there is
2 or 3 versions of any topic and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle .

As an aside -- and not directed at you -- I'm always frustrated by this type of statement. It's a wishy-washy way of saying "maybe we're both right?" It's like when they have a climate change expert on TV debating with a someone who once took a high school science class.

It also implies you can become knowledgeable on anything using Google, which is completely untrue. It's actually very dangerous. For example, 2-3 min on Google reveals that Russian claptrap posted above on why they are invading Ukraine.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 02, 2022, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 02, 2022, 09:49:32 AM
It also implies you can become knowledgeable on anything using Google, which is completely untrue. It's actually very dangerous. For example, 2-3 min on Google reveals that Russian claptrap posted above on why they are invading Ukraine.

Yup. Google is only reliable as a research tool for more simple topics or if you're already somewhat knowledgeable in a subject matter. Otherwise, you're getting too wide a range in quality, accuracy, etc., to draw meaningful conclusions.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 02, 2022, 02:28:53 PM
https://twitter.com/PowerUSAID/status/1499067289752199169
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 02, 2022, 02:39:02 PM
https://twitter.com/HockeyAgent1/status/1499089120450203654
Russian Hockey doesn't really like it when their talent prefers to ply their trade in North America, so I don't see this performative gesture being anything more than damaging to the athletes in question and fomenting more Cherryesque-xenophobia
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 02, 2022, 03:04:31 PM

I can't speak for Milstein and his thought process or how he feels(It's worth noting that being born in Ukraine during Soviet Times doesn't necessarily mean someone sees themselves as Ukrainian vs. Russian) but I will point out that in both this and the article where he complained about how some of his Clients have been treated he hasn't actually condemned the actions of the Russian state but has made the all too common dodge of "wanting peace" without apportioning blame for anything currently happening. For a guy who does a ton of business in Russia the difference is pretty noticeable.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 02, 2022, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: herman on March 02, 2022, 02:39:02 PM
Russian Hockey doesn't really like it when their talent prefers to ply their trade in North America, so I don't see this performative gesture being anything more than damaging to the athletes in question and fomenting more Cherryesque-xenophobia

This is part of the attempt to make the people of Russia so unhappy and unsatisfied through isolation that the demand for a change in government/policy comes internally. When the other loud alternative being trumpeted is actually trying to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine and effectively declaring war on Russia and risking nuclear annhilation, I'm ok with exhausting every other measure first.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 02, 2022, 03:20:35 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 02, 2022, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: herman on March 02, 2022, 02:39:02 PM
Russian Hockey doesn't really like it when their talent prefers to ply their trade in North America, so I don't see this performative gesture being anything more than damaging to the athletes in question and fomenting more Cherryesque-xenophobia

This is part of the attempt to make the people of Russia so unhappy and unsatisfied through isolation that the demand for a change in government/policy comes internally. When the other loud alternative being trumpeted is actually trying to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine and effectively declaring war on Russia and risking nuclear annhilation, I'm ok with exhausting every other measure first.

Yeah. Gotta go full court press with the pressure campaign before you risk all out war. Even if a direct conflict feels inevitable, you have to at least try everything you can to prevent it.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 02, 2022, 03:25:19 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 02, 2022, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: herman on March 02, 2022, 02:39:02 PM
Russian Hockey doesn't really like it when their talent prefers to ply their trade in North America, so I don't see this performative gesture being anything more than damaging to the athletes in question and fomenting more Cherryesque-xenophobia

This is part of the attempt to make the people of Russia so unhappy and unsatisfied through isolation that the demand for a change in government/policy comes internally. When the other loud alternative being trumpeted is actually trying to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine and effectively declaring war on Russia and risking nuclear annhilation, I'm ok with exhausting every other measure first.

I get where they're coming from with these 'sanctions', but in this specific implementation, it is quite literally doing what Russian Hockey prefers; recently they basically stonewalled all CHL Russian juniors from even trying out for the WJC, citing the existing chemistry and familiarity of players who have done tourneys together. Similarly, KHL players who have expressed interest in an NHL opportunity are immediately benched.

Quote from: Nik on March 02, 2022, 03:04:31 PM

I can't speak for Milstein and his thought process or how he feels(It's worth noting that being born in Ukraine during Soviet Times doesn't necessarily mean someone sees themselves as Ukrainian vs. Russian) but I will point out that in both this and the article where he complained about how some of his Clients have been treated he hasn't actually condemned the actions of the Russian state but has made the all too common dodge of "wanting peace" without apportioning blame for anything currently happening. For a guy who does a ton of business in Russia the difference is pretty noticeable.

My read on this is his livelihood is dependent on relationships, and I would imagine his clientele and future prospects will run the full spectrum of support for Putin. Like Michael Jordan's 'Republicans buy sneakers, too' stance (intended to be glib, but really just saying $$ first). Open anti-regime messaging from Milstein likely means he'll be blackballed. Panarin firing Milstein back in 2019 hits a little different now.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 02, 2022, 03:31:38 PM
Quote from: herman on March 02, 2022, 03:25:19 PM
I get where they're coming from with these 'sanctions', but in this specific implementation, it is quite literally doing what Russian Hockey prefers; recently they basically stonewalled all CHL Russian juniors from even trying out for the WJC, citing the existing chemistry and familiarity of players who have done tourneys together. Similarly, KHL players who have expressed interest in an NHL opportunity are immediately benched.

Right, but the target of these sanctions isn't the Russian Hockey Federation who, I think it's fair to assume, are generally going to be Pro-Putin. It's the actual people affected by this.

Quote from: herman on March 02, 2022, 03:25:19 PM
My read on this is his livelihood is dependent on relationships, and I would imagine his clientele and future prospects will run the full spectrum of support for Putin. Like Michael Jordan's 'Republicans buy sneakers, too' stance (intended to be glib, but really just saying $$ first). Open anti-regime messaging from Milstein likely means he'll be blackballed. Panarin firing Milstein back in 2019 hits a little different now.

No, I get it. I'm saying that's bad. Like "Republicans buy Sneakers too" has done some serious damage to Jordan's reputation as a person.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 02, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
I don't want the Russian people punished for this.  I understand why things are being done this way and appreciate how the world is standing up for Ukraine. 

I do think that stuff like banning kids from the import draft is really just irrelevant fluff.  Financial sanctions are hurting Russia.  They are designed to have someone turn on Putin and force his removal (or get him to reverse course on the attack). 

I don't see this kind of move having any real impact.  Apparently EA is going to remove Russia from their NHL and FIFA games next year. 

Ultimately I really do think the only thing that is going to stop this is more active military engagement.  Russia is amplifying their assault.  More aggressive bombings.  Children are dying as they are trying to care for them in bomb shelters.   The world needs to consider stronger actions.  Sanctions aren't going to stop a mad-man who isn't going to ever face the financial impact of the hardships and he is insulated enough that it will be a while before someone takes him out within his cabinet.

There has been a growing list of foreign fighters coming to Ukraine from many European nations.  There have been groups from units from the US military who served tours in the Middle East who are going to Ukraine to fight.  That has been nice to see. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 03, 2022, 05:55:15 AM
I have been very distressed to see the pure destruction and loss of civilian, particularly children, life which is basically at the hands of what can now only be seen as an authoritarian dictator. It's tough to watch and take in.

The president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, is an absolute hero.

The people of Ukraine and those who have gone to their aid are heroes. I suspect the Russian dictator expected to be ik Kyiv within hours. We're now 8 days down and his massive convoy has stalled.

There are a lot of reports and stories about Russian soldiers who do not want to be in Ukraine, many surrendering, many whose parents back home think they're on training missions and don't know that their army has invaded another country due to the media outlets in the country being controlled and social media etc being shut down.

Military action is way down the list. There have been calls for a NATO enforced No Fly Zone. That has been avoided as NATO know that they would have to enforce it and if they were to fire on a Russian jet that is a European war started.

Zelensky has managed to unite Europe in ways many haven't before. His diplomacy has seen Germany completely change their stance on defense spending, for example. The sanctions that have been brought in as well have been encouraged by his stance.

I hope that the Ukrainians continue to resist as they have and the sanctions bite quickly, which they seem to be doing.

The thoughts of military action are, quite frankly, terrifying, in terms of what it would mean for Europe and probably the globe.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bullfrog on March 03, 2022, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: L K on March 02, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
I don't want the Russian people punished for this.  I understand why things are being done this way and appreciate how the world is standing up for Ukraine. 

I do think that stuff like banning kids from the import draft is really just irrelevant fluff.  Financial sanctions are hurting Russia.  They are designed to have someone turn on Putin and force his removal (or get him to reverse course on the attack). 

I don't see this kind of move having any real impact.  Apparently EA is going to remove Russia from their NHL and FIFA games next year. 

Ultimately I really do think the only thing that is going to stop this is more active military engagement.  Russia is amplifying their assault.  More aggressive bombings.  Children are dying as they are trying to care for them in bomb shelters.   The world needs to consider stronger actions.  Sanctions aren't going to stop a mad-man who isn't going to ever face the financial impact of the hardships and he is insulated enough that it will be a while before someone takes him out within his cabinet.

There has been a growing list of foreign fighters coming to Ukraine from many European nations.  There have been groups from units from the US military who served tours in the Middle East who are going to Ukraine to fight.  That has been nice to see.

But what do you mean by stronger actions?
After reading and watching Princeton University's simulation of nuclear war, I understand the hesitancy.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 03, 2022, 10:39:06 AM
The likes of the UK need to act now with their sanctions, instead of giving people 30 days to sell off their assets before they're seized...

https://inews.co.uk/news/government-accused-of-absurd-sanctions-loophole-after-giving-russian-bank-customers-30-days-to-wind-down-assets-1490017

No idea why that could be, though

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1574370/Russian-oligarchs-linked-conservative-party-tory-donor-evg
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 03, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
And a couple of interesting videos

This one from the BBC showing some of what's going on

https://youtu.be/ivPMX4Vzuek

This is a longer update from Channel 4 and covers a bit of the first city to fall to Russian forces

https://youtu.be/oFEKhLEnkic
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on March 03, 2022, 01:26:20 PM
Putin will not back down until he destroys Ukraine, he has made it plain since 2008 that he will not tolerate border states to join Nato.  2008 was the year that it was announced that Ukraine had the possibility to join.   S
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on March 03, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
So we are in a heap of shit unless Zelensky tells Putin that Ukraine will not attempt to join Nato. And I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on March 03, 2022, 01:54:49 PM
Quote from: Highlander on March 03, 2022, 01:26:20 PM
Putin will not back down until he destroys Ukraine, he has made it plain since 2008 that he will not tolerate border states to join Nato.  2008 was the year that it was announced that Ukraine had the possibility to join.   S

Ukraine should have the right to make its own decisions regardless of whether Russia approves of them or not, and even so nothing was imminent until he randomly decided to invade, which most people did not predict, even people in the Kremlin seemed surprised. Putin attacking literally just flung Ukraine into NATO & Europe's arms.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 03, 2022, 02:15:15 PM
Quote from: Highlander on March 03, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
So we are in a heap of shit unless Zelensky tells Putin that Ukraine will not attempt to join Nato. And I don't see that happening.

That's won't change it.  The only thing that would stop the attack on Ukraine would be the world bombing the hell out of the Russian invasion or Zelensky surrendering control of Ukraine to Putin.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 03, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on March 03, 2022, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: L K on March 02, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
I don't want the Russian people punished for this.  I understand why things are being done this way and appreciate how the world is standing up for Ukraine. 

I do think that stuff like banning kids from the import draft is really just irrelevant fluff.  Financial sanctions are hurting Russia.  They are designed to have someone turn on Putin and force his removal (or get him to reverse course on the attack). 

I don't see this kind of move having any real impact.  Apparently EA is going to remove Russia from their NHL and FIFA games next year. 

Ultimately I really do think the only thing that is going to stop this is more active military engagement.  Russia is amplifying their assault.  More aggressive bombings.  Children are dying as they are trying to care for them in bomb shelters.   The world needs to consider stronger actions.  Sanctions aren't going to stop a mad-man who isn't going to ever face the financial impact of the hardships and he is insulated enough that it will be a while before someone takes him out within his cabinet.

There has been a growing list of foreign fighters coming to Ukraine from many European nations.  There have been groups from units from the US military who served tours in the Middle East who are going to Ukraine to fight.  That has been nice to see.

But what do you mean by stronger actions?
After reading and watching Princeton University's simulation of nuclear war, I understand the hesitancy.

I certainly do understand the hesitancy.  I guess my concern (and admittedly I'm coming from an emotional place on it) is that the transfer of munitions isn't going to be enough.  How many civilians being killed hits the threshold of saying too much?  Do we let Putin take over Ukraine fully?  If he invades Slovakia, Estonia, Hungary?  What is the threshold for too much invasion before the world has to call Putin's bluff and act beyond sanctions and shipping in weaponry.

It's a decision that is far beyond my own understanding of where to draw the line. 

Actions like the UK's nonsense 18 month window to divest property is why sanctions are going to only go so far in having someone stop Putin.  Strict punishment of the Russian people but kid gloves for the Oligarchs.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on March 03, 2022, 02:47:44 PM
This happened in 2014 with the annex of the Crimea, however it was not dubbed an invasion as Russia had troops in the Crimea at its Naval base (on land they were renting from Ukraine's government).  So Crimea was annexed but not in a formal invasion, but from within.
I don't believe that Putin intends to invade Hungary or even annex Ukraine, what he intends to do is wreck Ukraine and he is not going to give up until he does.
If we extend the military option from our end, then this goes nuclear and that my friends is the end.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bullfrog on March 03, 2022, 03:07:28 PM
Quote from: L K on March 03, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on March 03, 2022, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: L K on March 02, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
I don't want the Russian people punished for this.  I understand why things are being done this way and appreciate how the world is standing up for Ukraine. 

I do think that stuff like banning kids from the import draft is really just irrelevant fluff.  Financial sanctions are hurting Russia.  They are designed to have someone turn on Putin and force his removal (or get him to reverse course on the attack). 

I don't see this kind of move having any real impact.  Apparently EA is going to remove Russia from their NHL and FIFA games next year. 

Ultimately I really do think the only thing that is going to stop this is more active military engagement.  Russia is amplifying their assault.  More aggressive bombings.  Children are dying as they are trying to care for them in bomb shelters.   The world needs to consider stronger actions.  Sanctions aren't going to stop a mad-man who isn't going to ever face the financial impact of the hardships and he is insulated enough that it will be a while before someone takes him out within his cabinet.

There has been a growing list of foreign fighters coming to Ukraine from many European nations.  There have been groups from units from the US military who served tours in the Middle East who are going to Ukraine to fight.  That has been nice to see.

But what do you mean by stronger actions?
After reading and watching Princeton University's simulation of nuclear war, I understand the hesitancy.

I certainly do understand the hesitancy.  I guess my concern (and admittedly I'm coming from an emotional place on it) is that the transfer of munitions isn't going to be enough.  How many civilians being killed hits the threshold of saying too much?  Do we let Putin take over Ukraine fully?  If he invades Slovakia, Estonia, Hungary?  What is the threshold for too much invasion before the world has to call Putin's bluff and act beyond sanctions and shipping in weaponry.

It's a decision that is far beyond my own understanding of where to draw the line. 

Actions like the UK's nonsense 18 month window to divest property is why sanctions are going to only go so far in having someone stop Putin.  Strict punishment of the Russian people but kid gloves for the Oligarchs.

I can certainly appreciate your position. I'm in the same position with respect to my understanding. I'm sickened by how Ukraine is left to fend for itself due to the posturing of this maniac. This is definitely a complex issue.

I've been wrestling with that very question. I mean, for me, I think the killing of civilians is pretty close to that line.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 03, 2022, 03:15:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-xuQLPEeZk
Fiona Hill on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert with a summary of where things stand at a macro level
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 03, 2022, 04:04:28 PM
Quote from: L K on March 02, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
I don't want the Russian people punished for this.  I understand why things are being done this way and appreciate how the world is standing up for Ukraine. 

I do think that stuff like banning kids from the import draft is really just irrelevant fluff.  Financial sanctions are hurting Russia.  They are designed to have someone turn on Putin and force his removal (or get him to reverse course on the attack). 

I don't see this kind of move having any real impact.  Apparently EA is going to remove Russia from their NHL and FIFA games next year. 

That's fair and the reality is that any of these things, in isolation, is fairly unlikely to have a major impact on the political situaiton.

But that said, I feel like there's a second layer here where regardless of the impact, it seems like there's a lot of people who are sort of tired of the idea that we should act like we're on good terms with another country when we're not and that pretending that we are by means of sporting matches and cultural events isn't so much engagement as it is papering over the ugly realities and ignoring what they're saying about us.

Admittedly there's no right or wrong answer here but it's sort of the South Africa question from 30 years ago. At what point should we be like "If your country is going to act like that, maybe you don't get invited to the party".
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 03, 2022, 04:07:03 PM
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1499445304696913926
This is a positive development
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 03, 2022, 05:11:56 PM
Quote from: Nik on March 03, 2022, 04:04:28 PM
Quote from: L K on March 02, 2022, 06:27:41 PM
I don't want the Russian people punished for this.  I understand why things are being done this way and appreciate how the world is standing up for Ukraine. 

I do think that stuff like banning kids from the import draft is really just irrelevant fluff.  Financial sanctions are hurting Russia.  They are designed to have someone turn on Putin and force his removal (or get him to reverse course on the attack). 

I don't see this kind of move having any real impact.  Apparently EA is going to remove Russia from their NHL and FIFA games next year. 

That's fair and the reality is that any of these things, in isolation, is fairly unlikely to have a major impact on the political situaiton.

But that said, I feel like there's a second layer here where regardless of the impact, it seems like there's a lot of people who are sort of tired of the idea that we should act like we're on good terms with another country when we're not and that pretending that we are by means of sporting matches and cultural events isn't so much engagement as it is papering over the ugly realities and ignoring what they're saying about us.

Admittedly there's no right or wrong answer here but it's sort of the South Africa question from 30 years ago. At what point should we be like "If your country is going to act like that, maybe you don't get invited to the party".

I also get where Lk is coming from but I think it's the compounding impact of all these things that will (hopefully) break the people of Russia to the extent where they finally realise and somehow make a stand that threatens Putin from within.

But with the blocking of alternative outside media as it is too negative, the stories of children being arrested for speaking out and the lessons in how bad the Ukraine is being mandated for all pupils in schools etc that internal information war has also already started.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 03, 2022, 05:30:50 PM
I can only speak from my family's experience in South Africa, but, the longer these sanctions go, the more ways people will find to get around them. Even with the sanctions, South Africa had no real shortages of essentials or luxury products. For them to be effective, they need to have a strong and as immediate as possible an impact on the people in charge. You want to mobilize the Russian people? Sanctions are not the way to get that to happen. That requires more of a "hearts and minds" style campaign. There's a very good reason so many of these sanctions are targeted at Putin and his oligarch cronies - hitting them where it hurts is the only way they might force Putin to back down.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 03, 2022, 06:05:08 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 03, 2022, 05:30:50 PM
I can only speak from my family's experience in South Africa, but, the longer these sanctions go, the more ways people will find to get around them. Even with the sanctions, South Africa had no real shortages of essentials or luxury products. For them to be effective, they need to have a strong and as immediate as possible an impact on the people in charge. You want to mobilize the Russian people? Sanctions are not the way to get that to happen. That requires more of a "hearts and minds" style campaign. There's a very good reason so many of these sanctions are targeted at Putin and his oligarch cronies - hitting them where it hurts is the only way they might force Putin to back down.

I sort of disagree on two fronts. One, like I said, I don't think all of these efforts are just about "How do we bring Russia down?". Some of it is just about the practical application of morality regardless of the effect.

But secondly, the kleptocrats Putin has surrounded himself are so wealthy(and the appetite for gas/oil so voracious in China) that even if you start actually seizing assets in the West and seizing all the assets available, they can always steal more. Unless you're actually willing to bankrupt his cronies and leave them with nothing(which it's pretty clear that the West is unwilling to do) then they'll coast on the billions they have squirreled away and wait this thing out. Real, meaningful change probably has to come from the Russian people. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 03, 2022, 08:02:42 PM
Blasts at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant.  Fires at the plant.  No international alarms at present to suggest any fear of core instability.

You don't want nuclear devices fired by upsetting Putin, fine.  You don't want to prevent the murder of women and children, fine.  Fear not Russia can destroy Europe with another Chernobyl that won't be stoppable.  This is madness
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: AtomicMapleLeaf on March 03, 2022, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on March 03, 2022, 05:30:50 PM
I can only speak from my family's experience in South Africa, but, the longer these sanctions go, the more ways people will find to get around them. Even with the sanctions, South Africa had no real shortages of essentials or luxury products. For them to be effective, they need to have a strong and as immediate as possible an impact on the people in charge. You want to mobilize the Russian people? Sanctions are not the way to get that to happen. That requires more of a "hearts and minds" style campaign. There's a very good reason so many of these sanctions are targeted at Putin and his oligarch cronies - hitting them where it hurts is the only way they might force Putin to back down.

Mike from South Africa from the Plaidworks days?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 03, 2022, 09:39:13 PM
Who?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 04, 2022, 03:55:07 AM
Quote from: L K on March 03, 2022, 08:02:42 PM
Blasts at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant.  Fires at the plant.  No international alarms at present to suggest any fear of core instability.

You don't want nuclear devices fired by upsetting Putin, fine.  You don't want to prevent the murder of women and children, fine.  Fear not Russia can destroy Europe with another Chernobyl that won't be stoppable.  This is madness

Are you advocating for nuclear war?

I don't see any way to stop him that avoids mutually assured destruction.

Praying for someone domestically to put a bullet through his brain doesn't seem like a strategy, but I've yet to see another one that avoids the entire planet being incinerated.

Do you give Taiwan to the Chinese to bring him to heel? Is that even an option?

To be clear, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just clueless as to what more can be done.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 04, 2022, 09:00:13 AM
Quote from: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on March 04, 2022, 03:55:07 AM
Quote from: L K on March 03, 2022, 08:02:42 PM
Blasts at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant.  Fires at the plant.  No international alarms at present to suggest any fear of core instability.

You don't want nuclear devices fired by upsetting Putin, fine.  You don't want to prevent the murder of women and children, fine.  Fear not Russia can destroy Europe with another Chernobyl that won't be stoppable.  This is madness

Are you advocating for nuclear war?

I don't see any way to stop him that avoids mutually assured destruction.

Praying for someone domestically to put a bullet through his brain doesn't seem like a strategy, but I've yet to see another one that avoids the entire planet being incinerated.

Do you give Taiwan to the Chinese to bring him to heel? Is that even an option?

To be clear, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just clueless as to what more can be done.

No I get it.  I don't find you argumentative at all.

I honestly don't know.   Absolutely not advocating for nuclear war.

Where I am stuck is really in his credible a nuclear response is from Russia and what threshold engages it.   Independent fighters from Europe and America and the Middle East are joining up to fight.  Reports of 18000 but over 60,000 have applied.  Supposedly military artillery and money has been given to Ukraine from pretty much every Western Nation. The international sanctions have hurt local Russians but most Oligarchy have their finances divested from the Ruble. 

At what point does Russia consider what is going on "war" with the rest of the world.  I don't think the artillery fire that hit the power plant an intentional act but reckless stupidity could have very grave consequences for Europe and the world. 

Nuclear weapons have been viewed as a deterrent to war but here they are being used to enable a country to commit war crimes.  How many war crimes breaks the threshold of having gone too far?   The thought process behind the sanctions is to piss enough Russians off that they demand Putin stop or remove him.  What's preventing him from firing a warhead if he feels he's about to be ousted. 

I know NATO forces the hand based on treaties/agreements but let's change it up.  Russia attacks the UK instead.  Should we not engage in military combat then because what if they fire nukes?  I really just want to know what the threshold is for action.  One country, two, five?  Ukraine isn't a part of NATO but they were trying to move toward it and the EU.  Russia didn't technically do anything with Belarus but LUkashenko is a Soviet plant forcing the country to be subservient to Putin so we are working on two countries already. 

I certainly don't think that something like giving Taiwan to the Chinese is an option.  Further enabling another vile dictatorship seems counterproductive. 

I don't want any war.  I'm just not really seeing a scenario here where Putin stops at this point.   
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Rob on March 04, 2022, 09:50:54 AM
Indian generals talk about why NATO isn't doing anything;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNHUDDqTgdI
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 04, 2022, 10:35:42 AM
Quote from: L K on March 04, 2022, 09:00:13 AM
Nuclear weapons have been viewed as a deterrent to war but here they are being used to enable a country to commit war crimes.  How many war crimes breaks the threshold of having gone too far?

Sort of why no one else does anything (other than join with) when the US takes military action against another country under the auspices of some higher moral ground.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 04, 2022, 10:40:18 AM
Quote from: L K on March 04, 2022, 09:00:13 AM
I don't want any war.  I'm just not really seeing a scenario here where Putin stops at this point.

Same. Unless it becomes crystal clear to him that this is a failed endeavor (and I'm not sure he's every going to see it that way), I don't see him stopping at just taking over Ukraine. He's smart enough to not directly engage any members of NATO until he absolutely has to, but he's absolutely going to invade Moldova. Then, what's stopping him from doing the same with Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, etc.? A direct armed conflict feel inevitable at this point.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 04, 2022, 11:27:59 AM
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1499736956674129923

"NATOs core task is to keep our 30 nations safe. We are not part of this conflict. And we have a responsibility to ensure it does not escalate & spread beyond Ukraine, because that would be even more devastating & dangerous, with even more human suffering"
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: princedpw on March 04, 2022, 12:53:14 PM
To me, this suggests that the sanctions are having a huge impact:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/04/business/lukoil-end-war/index.html

Lukoil calls for end to war.

On the other hand, I read the grim news suggesting that no matter what we do Putin might decide he wants to nuke Ukraine anyway.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 04, 2022, 03:11:36 PM
https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status/1499806157354983426
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 04, 2022, 03:15:20 PM
That's so wild that there's a part of me that wonders if the picture might actually be fake.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 04, 2022, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on March 04, 2022, 03:15:20 PM
That's so wild that there's a part of me that wonders if the picture might actually be fake.

Go look at Ovechkin's instragram avatar.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: CarltonTheBear on March 04, 2022, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on March 04, 2022, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on March 04, 2022, 03:15:20 PM
That's so wild that there's a part of me that wonders if the picture might actually be fake.

Go look at Ovechkin's instragram avatar.

Yeah I know about that but what, did Ovi say he's going to break his contract and bolt to the KHL if he sees a blue and yellow flag in the stands? This decision would have had a lot more to do than just him.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on March 04, 2022, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on March 04, 2022, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on March 04, 2022, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on March 04, 2022, 03:15:20 PM
That's so wild that there's a part of me that wonders if the picture might actually be fake.

Go look at Ovechkin's instragram avatar.

Yeah I know about that but what, did Ovi say he's going to break his contract and bolt to the KHL if he sees a blue and yellow flag in the stands? This decision would have had a lot more to do than just him.

Oh yeah I agree.  It was more about the wild comment.  I believe the media in Washington has asked Ovechkin some pointed questions, so maybe the Caps are just trying to get out in front of it.  The next question though is how are the Caps going to feel when they play in an arena that is singing the national anthem of Ukraine?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 04, 2022, 09:05:54 PM
If symphony orchestras are cutting ties with Putin supporters...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 04, 2022, 11:54:40 PM
https://twitter.com/trenttelenko/status/1499894935209795594

Amazing thread about Russian lack of preparedness on the ground.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 05, 2022, 09:33:32 AM
The Russian strategic approach has been bizarre but they are countering that by increasing their artillery fire at civilians. 

Evacuation lanes were negotiated.  Russia fired on them on the first morning they were supposed to be considered safe zones and evacuation had to be halted.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bender on March 05, 2022, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: L K on March 05, 2022, 09:33:32 AM
The Russian strategic approach has been bizarre but they are countering that by increasing their artillery fire at civilians. 

Evacuation lanes were negotiated.  Russia fired on them on the first morning they were supposed to be considered safe zones and evacuation had to be halted.
War crimes up the wazoo.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 05, 2022, 07:29:15 PM
Zelensky has a meeting with US congress. 

Joe Manchin and Marco Rubio post photos of Zelensky despite requests not to to protect his location.   Absolutely stupid a-holes.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 07, 2022, 10:03:41 AM
Quote from: L K on March 05, 2022, 07:29:15 PM
Zelensky has a meeting with US congress. 

Joe Manchin and Marco Rubio post photos of Zelensky despite requests not to to protect his location.   Absolutely stupid a-holes.
So thoroughly shameless. There's no low these guys can't hit.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 07, 2022, 10:04:41 AM
https://twitter.com/hackingbutlegal/status/1500465032966062082

10 minute video, but really worth watching.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 07, 2022, 10:28:08 AM
Almost all of Rusian's ecav routes fo to Russia or Belarus?

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-07-22/h_bfd0399099ad7f52696e2a2adc61c4a1

wtf

So they bomb all other routes out?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 07, 2022, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_sad on March 07, 2022, 10:28:08 AM
Almost all of Rusian's ecav routes fo to Russia or Belarus?

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-07-22/h_bfd0399099ad7f52696e2a2adc61c4a1

wtf

So they bomb all other routes out?

Bombing evacuation routes.  Laying landmines through evacuation routes.  Funneling them toward hostile nations.  It's the Russian way.  There is no end to this with peaceful negotiation.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 07, 2022, 11:40:32 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on March 07, 2022, 10:03:41 AM
Quote from: L K on March 05, 2022, 07:29:15 PM
Zelensky has a meeting with US congress. 

Joe Manchin and Marco Rubio post photos of Zelensky despite requests not to to protect his location.   Absolutely stupid a-holes.
So thoroughly shameless. There's no low these guys can't hit.

This feels like an instance where you shouldn't ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by just outright idiocy.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 08, 2022, 03:37:00 PM
https://twitter.com/cbcpitchbot/status/1501203097783353344
How is this real life
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 08, 2022, 03:56:41 PM
Poland just offered up all of their MiGs to Ukraine. (Well to a base in Germany under control of the US Air Force who will them mysteriously lose them).  They were looking to upgrade to US/UK aircraft anyway but if this moves forward that's 27 fighter jets to the Ukraine defense.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 10, 2022, 12:06:48 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/sports/hockey/alex-ovechkin-putin-russia-ukraine-nhl.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/sports/hockey/alex-ovechkin-putin-russia-ukraine-nhl.html)

Bettman and the NHL refuse to talk about it.  What a miserable bunch they are.  Compare that to what Gretzky said. 
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Arn on March 10, 2022, 07:23:58 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60689645

A quick breakdown:

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/status/1501849425643245571

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/status/1501852399417401347
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Guilt Trip on March 10, 2022, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 10, 2022, 12:06:48 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/sports/hockey/alex-ovechkin-putin-russia-ukraine-nhl.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/sports/hockey/alex-ovechkin-putin-russia-ukraine-nhl.html)

Bettman and the NHL refuse to talk about it.  What a miserable bunch they are.  Compare that to what Gretzky said. 
Can't see the article(paywall) so what do you want/expect the NHL to say?
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Madkenstalin on March 12, 2022, 04:56:57 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on March 10, 2022, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on March 10, 2022, 12:06:48 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/sports/hockey/alex-ovechkin-putin-russia-ukraine-nhl.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/sports/hockey/alex-ovechkin-putin-russia-ukraine-nhl.html)

Bettman and the NHL refuse to talk about it.  What a miserable bunch they are.  Compare that to what Gretzky said. 
Can't see the article(paywall) so what do you want/expect the NHL to say?
https://12ft.io/
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 13, 2022, 03:03:44 PM
Russia possibly using white phosphorus bombs.  Add it to the war crime list
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Joe on March 13, 2022, 03:14:14 PM
Quote from: L K on March 13, 2022, 03:03:44 PM
Russia possibly using white phosphorus bombs.  Add it to the war crime list

In all honesty when we say war crimes - does it matter? Will they be held accountable in any meaningful way? This just feels like meaningless words at this point.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 13, 2022, 03:57:36 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on March 13, 2022, 03:14:14 PM
Quote from: L K on March 13, 2022, 03:03:44 PM
Russia possibly using white phosphorus bombs.  Add it to the war crime list

In all honesty when we say war crimes - does it matter? Will they be held accountable in any meaningful way? This just feels like meaningless words at this point.

Absolutely true.  Unless there are consequences to their actions it means nothing.  It's just mindless venting for me at this point
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 13, 2022, 05:13:34 PM
Quote from: L K on March 13, 2022, 03:03:44 PM
Russia possibly using white phosphorus bombs.  Add it to the war crime list

They better hope they don't accidentally hit any NATO assets, they're going to get carpet bombed.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on March 15, 2022, 03:34:28 PM
Now Zelensky has come out and said he no longer thinks that Ukraine will join NATO.  Isn't this the very thing that Putin wanted in the first place. No buffer states belonging to NATO.  Hopefully this thing resolves quickly now.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Nik on March 15, 2022, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: Highlander on March 15, 2022, 03:34:28 PM
Now Zelensky has come out and said he no longer thinks that Ukraine will join NATO.

No, he didn't.

Quote from: Highlander on March 15, 2022, 03:34:28 PM
Isn't this the very thing that Putin wanted in the first place.

No, it isn't.

Quote from: Highlander on March 15, 2022, 03:34:28 PM
No buffer states belonging to NATO. 

Or "independent countries" as they're known in some circles.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 15, 2022, 05:03:09 PM
Quote from: Highlander on March 15, 2022, 03:34:28 PM
Now Zelensky has come out and said he no longer thinks that Ukraine will join NATO.  Isn't this the very thing that Putin wanted in the first place. No buffer states belonging to NATO.  Hopefully this thing resolves quickly now.

Russia invading Ukraine had very little to do with NATO/the EU.

Estonia and Latvia directly border the RUS and are both NATO nations.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: bustaheims on March 16, 2022, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Highlander on March 15, 2022, 03:34:28 PM
Now Zelensky has come out and said he no longer thinks that Ukraine will join NATO.  Isn't this the very thing that Putin wanted in the first place. No buffer states belonging to NATO.  Hopefully this thing resolves quickly now.

As others have pointed out, this is not what he said. He just recognized that Ukraine being admitted to NATO is not at all imminent or guaranteed - which was true before the invasion. Nothing has really changed there.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: L K on March 16, 2022, 03:22:10 PM
This is Putin.  I'm seeing red. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/16/europe/ukraine-mariupol-bombing-theater-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/16/europe/ukraine-mariupol-bombing-theater-intl/index.html)
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Highlander on March 16, 2022, 06:28:13 PM
I stand corrected, but still very very concerned.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on March 16, 2022, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: L K on March 16, 2022, 03:22:10 PM
This is Putin.  I'm seeing red. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/16/europe/ukraine-mariupol-bombing-theater-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/16/europe/ukraine-mariupol-bombing-theater-intl/index.html)

As they did in Syria, also targeting hospitals and medical facilities
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on March 26, 2022, 11:00:08 AM
https://twitter.com/bgrueskin/status/1507551514209959942
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on May 16, 2022, 07:10:59 PM
https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1526293852704890882
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bullfrog on May 16, 2022, 09:46:10 PM
That was great to hear. Very brave of him.
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: herman on May 16, 2022, 11:46:21 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on May 16, 2022, 09:46:10 PM
That was great to hear. Very brave of him.

Apparently he's been on this since the beginning.
https://twitter.com/futuramapolls/status/1523048057390071809
Title: Re: Ukraine
Post by: Bullfrog on May 17, 2022, 08:18:08 AM
It was interesting to hear the arguments from the host (another panelist?). She's clearly intelligent, but also a good illustration of how disinformation can be easily spread.