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Maple Leafs News and Views => Leafs Rumours & Speculation => Topic started by: herman on September 18, 2020, 07:36:36 PM

Title: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 18, 2020, 07:36:36 PM
https://twitter.com/darrendreger/status/1307100573066506240

There?s so much time left. What did they say to each other?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on September 18, 2020, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: herman on September 18, 2020, 07:36:36 PM
https://twitter.com/darrendreger/status/1307100573066506240

There?s so much time left. What did they say to each other?

https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status/1307106368646795266
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2020, 08:09:11 PM
I don't have a clue how we could get the cap space to do this, and I'm not even sure if a 7-year, $8mil contract is a smart move long-term... but I still wanna see it.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2020, 08:10:35 PM
This was from a few days ago:

https://twitter.com/Account4hockey/status/1305959176921899017
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 18, 2020, 08:12:29 PM
https://twitter.com/capfriendly/status/1307106864023339014
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2020, 08:13:35 PM
Quote from: Deebo on September 18, 2020, 08:07:31 PM
https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status/1307106368646795266

Sounds like someone who wants to be paid 90% in signing bonuses to me.

Also, what on earth is St. Louis doing there?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on September 18, 2020, 08:26:41 PM
I wonder if they mean no trade clauses too.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 18, 2020, 08:30:33 PM
https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status/1307105821633974273
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 18, 2020, 10:03:47 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2020, 08:09:11 PM
I don't have a clue how we could get the cap space to do this, and I'm not even sure if a 7-year, $8mil contract is a smart move long-term... but I still wanna see it.
Nylander goes for picks/prospects? Or do you dump Johnsson and say Kerfoot? I would def trade Freddie for Kuemper..its a 500k savings for us and 2.5 mill in actual money for the Yotes. I'm not sure about getting AP for 7 years tho. Yes he's good now but when does he drop off? Maybe he doesn't. Man I'd love to get a D man of this calibre. Just look at what Hedman does for TBay. He's a beast. Rielly and AP would be an awesome pairing.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2020, 11:04:55 PM
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/1307150792344899584

Watching each side of this picking which reporters to leak their version of these negotiations to is fun.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: princedpw on September 18, 2020, 11:34:03 PM
Quote from: Deebo on September 18, 2020, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: herman on September 18, 2020, 07:36:36 PM
https://twitter.com/darrendreger/status/1307100573066506240

There?s so much time left. What did they say to each other?

https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status/1307106368646795266

This seems impossible. They can?t ask someone to sign a contract without showing them the contract.  And anyway, the player would just assume it is the worst possible contract for them at that AAV. It can?t possibly be true.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 19, 2020, 12:22:49 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 18, 2020, 11:04:55 PM
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/1307150792344899584

Watching each side of this picking which reporters to leak their version of these negotiations to is fun.
For once its not us!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 19, 2020, 08:49:12 AM
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/1307296358588731394
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 19, 2020, 09:49:15 AM
https://theathletic.com/2015072/2020/09/19/exclusive-after-talks-break-off-with-blues-alex-pietrangelo-opens-up-on-future

Quote?There was a discussion today, and I guess the best way to sum it up, we haven?t really made much progress,? Pietrangelo said in an exclusive interview. ?We just think right now, with where things are at, that maybe it?s best for both sides to see what?s going on in free agency, what the team can explore, what I can explore and if there are better fits for each side.

?We?re a little disappointed that we?re in this situation. We weren?t able to hammer out the details what we wanted in a deal. There was some work that we tried to get done that we couldn?t get done, so both sides agreed that maybe it?s in the best interest. We?re two weeks away. Not saying anything can?t change, but as of right now, that?s kind of our plan, and we?ll see where things go.?

Pietrangelo also sounds open to 5-7 yr options (with St Louis) but NMC and signing bonuses are important to him: certainties in an uncertain time.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 19, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: princedpw on September 18, 2020, 11:34:03 PM
This seems impossible. They can?t ask someone to sign a contract without showing them the contract.  And anyway, the player would just assume it is the worst possible contract for them at that AAV. It can?t possibly be true.

They couldn't have asked him to sign, but maybe they wanted him to agree to a deal in principle so that way they'd know exactly how much cap space they'd need to start clearing.

I agree though if that's what happened it's still a bad look for St. Louis.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:05:20 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 19, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: princedpw on September 18, 2020, 11:34:03 PM
This seems impossible. They can?t ask someone to sign a contract without showing them the contract.  And anyway, the player would just assume it is the worst possible contract for them at that AAV. It can?t possibly be true.

They couldn't have asked him to sign, but maybe they wanted him to agree to a deal in principle so that way they'd know exactly how much cap space they'd need to start clearing.
That def sounds like like a possibilty. So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 19, 2020, 10:09:30 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 19, 2020, 09:56:15 AM

They couldn't have asked him to sign, but maybe they wanted him to agree to a deal in principle so that way they'd know exactly how much cap space they'd need to start clearing.

That sounds like a much more likely scenario than any other I've read. It just doesn't make sense for St Louis to go full monty burns in this; it reflects upon the franchise and attracting other free agents in the future -it's just bad business. It's clearly just player agents trying to put pressure on through the media like another local situation we had last summer. 
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 19, 2020, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:05:20 AM
So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 19, 2020, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:05:20 AM
So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 19, 2020, 10:30:16 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 19, 2020, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:05:20 AM
So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.

Yeah, but you're getting a #1D who will likely begin a decline, while giving up a very young forward who will likely maintain or improve. I know they're in win-now mode, but they're painting themselves into massive corner. Any injuries to key players, and they're sunk with no depth to backfill.

If they could move Nylander for a young defenceman for which they could get more or less equivalent value, that would be something I'd investigate, but I doubt they'd end up with significant cap savings to fit pieterangelo on top of that. I dunno. I can see the appeal, don't get me wrong, but you'll have 20M in Tavares and Pieteranglo in a few years that can't be moved (assuming an NTC) of which you'll likely lament the situation.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:44:26 AM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 19, 2020, 10:30:16 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 19, 2020, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:05:20 AM
So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.

Yeah, but you're getting a #1D who will likely begin a decline, while giving up a very young forward who will likely maintain or improve. I know they're in win-now mode, but they're painting themselves into massive corner. Any injuries to key players, and they're sunk with no depth to backfill.

If they could move Nylander for a young defenceman for which they could get more or less equivalent value, that would be something I'd investigate, but I doubt they'd end up with significant cap savings to fit pieterangelo on top of that. I dunno. I can see the appeal, don't get me wrong, but you'll have 20M in Tavares and Pieteranglo in a few years that can't be moved (assuming an NTC) of which you'll likely lament the situation.
No disagreeing with you at all. This is what makes it so intriguing. And yes AP will be 31 in Jan but will his game fall off the cliff? Duncan Keith is 37 and can still play. Giordano is up there. I mean can we get 5 good years out of him on a front loaded, cough cough, signing bonuses, and then potentially trade him down the road for a to team that wants cap hit, not actual salary? Get the popcorn out.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:57:49 AM
Just to add. If this was Hedman we were talking about, would anyone hesitate? Asking because he's 11 months younger. I know I wouldn't so is Hedman that much better the AP?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 19, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:44:26 AM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 19, 2020, 10:30:16 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:24:09 AM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 19, 2020, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 10:05:20 AM
So if the ask is 9 mill, can the Leafs do it? Should they?

Personally, I think it's an incredibly risky move the way the team is constructed. I'd reluctantly pass.
It's a tough call because you're going to have to get rid of in or around Nylander's money to make it work, but you're getting a bonafide #1 D man.

Yeah, but you're getting a #1D who will likely begin a decline, while giving up a very young forward who will likely maintain or improve. I know they're in win-now mode, but they're painting themselves into massive corner. Any injuries to key players, and they're sunk with no depth to backfill.

If they could move Nylander for a young defenceman for which they could get more or less equivalent value, that would be something I'd investigate, but I doubt they'd end up with significant cap savings to fit pieterangelo on top of that. I dunno. I can see the appeal, don't get me wrong, but you'll have 20M in Tavares and Pieteranglo in a few years that can't be moved (assuming an NTC) of which you'll likely lament the situation.
No disagreeing with you at all. This is what makes it so intriguing. And yes AP will be 31 in Jan but will his game fall off the cliff? Duncan Keith is 37 and can still play. Giordano is up there. I mean can we get 5 good years out of him on a front loaded, cough cough, signing bonuses, and then potentially trade him down the road for a to team that wants cap hit, not actual salary? Get the popcorn out.

Definitely agree. It's a weird scenario when someone as good as the guy can actually get to market and you have to consider whether or not its a good move. I guess it's the flat cap and the economy that really takes the wind out of comparing to Keith, etc. Those guys' contracts don't look quite so bad as they age as the cap has increased and the % goes down, but that very likely might not be the case here.

Anyway, it could be moot if it ends up in a stamkos. I don't think things has "broken down" quite as much as advertised.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 19, 2020, 11:24:19 AM
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?

Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes.  Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.

So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)?  I'm all in.

There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: L K on September 19, 2020, 12:31:43 PM
I think the big determine factor for me would be what return you get for the guy we send out.  If we are getting pennies on the dollar on the trade I don?t think it is worth it.   If we get fair value for say Nylander then that could be a good piece coming back plus some prospect depth.   I mean if we get a second good defenseman to add to Pietrangelo that does become very enticing
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bullfrog on September 19, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 19, 2020, 11:24:19 AM
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?

Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes.  Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.

So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)?  I'm all in.

There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.

I'd make that move. And it really pains me to say that; Nylander is frigging awesome. I'd imagine you'd get a pretty good return for Nylander though.

When's the last time the Leafs have had a defenseman of Pietrangelo's caliber?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on September 19, 2020, 02:14:19 PM
Quote from: L K on September 19, 2020, 12:31:43 PM
I think the big determine factor for me would be what return you get for the guy we send out.  If we are getting pennies on the dollar on the trade I don?t think it is worth it.   If we get fair value for say Nylander then that could be a good piece coming back plus some prospect depth.   I mean if we get a second good defenseman to add to Pietrangelo that does become very enticing

If Kapanen was worth a first you?d have to think Nylander will command a significant haul.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 19, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on September 19, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 19, 2020, 11:24:19 AM
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?

Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes.  Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.

So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)?  I'm all in.

There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.

I'd make that move. And it really pains me to say that; Nylander is frigging awesome. I'd imagine you'd get a pretty good return for Nylander though.

When's the last time the Leafs have had a defenseman of Pietrangelo's caliber?

Leetch, I guess, though he was 35 when they got him. If you mean in his prime, probably Salming. I should add that AP is not as good as either Salming or Leetch in their prime.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on September 19, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on September 19, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 19, 2020, 11:24:19 AM
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?

Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes.  Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.

So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)?  I'm all in.

There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.

I'd make that move. And it really pains me to say that; Nylander is frigging awesome. I'd imagine you'd get a pretty good return for Nylander though.

When's the last time the Leafs have had a defenseman of Pietrangelo's caliber?

Leetch, I guess, though he was 35 when they got him. If you mean in his prime, probably Salming. I should add that AP is not as good as either Salming or Leetch in their prime.
Salming was the Leafs best ever D man. Loved watching him play.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Highlander on September 19, 2020, 02:59:31 PM
Lord I agree, if we had two Salming's on our blue line this coming year, then plan the parade. Too bad they broke the mold with him.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: princedpw on September 19, 2020, 04:16:17 PM
If Pietrangelo is on the table, I?d have to ask myself whether team is better with him + Marner?s/Nylander?s return in a trade.  Otherwise there?s just no one on the 3rd and 4th lines and no injury replacement depth.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: princedpw on September 19, 2020, 04:17:48 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 19, 2020, 11:24:19 AM
I look at it like would I trade Nylander at $7m X 4 years, then he's UFA, for Pietrangelo at $9m X 7 years (when he'd be 37 at contract maturity)?

Given where the Leafs' defense vs. offense is at, I say yes.  Pietrangelo doesn't seem to have any big injury issues, plays 25 minutes per game, scores very well, is RHD, and is a team captain.

So if you ask me if I'd sign Pietrangelo to that contract, and get the proceeds of trading Nylander (futures, maybe a goalie prospect, maybe another great d-man prospect)?  I'm all in.

There's always going to be inherent risks, but Pietrangelo is a pretty solid bet.

I?d look at this kind of ?trade? as well.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: KadriFan on September 19, 2020, 04:29:54 PM
Smart GMs don?t sign 30 year olds to long term deals.  Some idiot probably will but I sure hope it?s not the leafs
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 04:52:43 PM
Quote from: Highlander on September 19, 2020, 02:59:31 PM
Lord I agree, if we had two Salming's on our blue line this coming year, then plan the parade. Too bad they broke the mold with him.
They certainly did. Unbelievable player and tough. The crap he had to put up with. My favourite player ever.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_71KMpMP8qA
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 19, 2020, 04:57:12 PM
Quote from: KadriFan on September 19, 2020, 04:29:54 PM
Smart GMs don?t sign 30 year olds to long term deals.  Some idiot probably will but I sure hope it?s not the leafs

Boston signed Chara long term at 29 years old. Worked out for them.

Scott Niedermayer signed in Anaheim at 32 and took him to 36. That worked out pretty good too.

I'd say elite guys kinda change the equation.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 19, 2020, 04:57:12 PM
Quote from: KadriFan on September 19, 2020, 04:29:54 PM
Smart GMs don?t sign 30 year olds to long term deals.  Some idiot probably will but I sure hope it?s not the leafs

Boston signed Chara long term at 29 years old. Worked out for them.

Scott Niedermayer signed in Anaheim at 32 and took him to 36. That worked out pretty good too.

I'd say elite guys kinda change the equation.

They definitely do and AP is an elite D man.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 19, 2020, 07:48:15 PM
Quote from: Highlander on September 19, 2020, 02:59:31 PM
Lord I agree, if we had two Salming's on our blue line this coming year, then plan the parade. Too bad they broke the mold with him.
I, too, would like two Hall of Fame defensemen on the blueline.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Downtown on September 19, 2020, 08:10:20 PM
I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.

I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 08:32:28 PM
Quote from: Downtown on September 19, 2020, 08:10:20 PM
I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.

I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
In a deal like this you can't worry about year 6 or 7. Robidas Island if he falls of the cliff. Also Matthews is here for 4 more minimum, Marner 5, Nylander 4 and JT 5. Sign him and take action at it for the next 4 or 5 years.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Downtown on September 19, 2020, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 08:32:28 PM
Quote from: Downtown on September 19, 2020, 08:10:20 PM
I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.

I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
In a deal like this you can't worry about year 6 or 7. Robidas Island if he falls of the cliff. Also Matthews is here for 4 more minimum, Marner 5, Nylander 4 and JT 5. Sign him and take action at it for the next 4 or 5 years.
See, I think a smart GM worries about every year of the deal. Obviously it's hard to predict what shape the team/league will be in 6 or 7 year, but ideally you want to build a team that's competitive year in and year out. Look at Dallas this year, it's usually just a matter of a good team with a little bit of puck luck.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 19, 2020, 09:01:15 PM
https://twitter.com/walsha/status/1307480088800182272
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 19, 2020, 09:18:06 PM
Yeah, I'm sure teams like Tampa have some advantage in that regard but things like capfriendly's tax calculators have always seemed poorly thought out. Players don't just take whatever tax rate they're subjected to and leave it at that. It's not that simple.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 09:26:50 PM
Quote from: Downtown on September 19, 2020, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 08:32:28 PM
Quote from: Downtown on September 19, 2020, 08:10:20 PM
I love the idea of AP right now, but I can't see that contract being a good thing in year 6 and 7.

I'd rather trade Nylander (as awesome as he is) for a good young defender and use the cap space to sign a few solid dmen.
In a deal like this you can't worry about year 6 or 7. Robidas Island if he falls of the cliff. Also Matthews is here for 4 more minimum, Marner 5, Nylander 4 and JT 5. Sign him and take action at it for the next 4 or 5 years.
See, I think a smart GM worries about every year of the deal. Obviously it's hard to predict what shape the team/league will be in 6 or 7 year, but ideally you want to build a team that's competitive year in and year out. Look at Dallas this year, it's usually just a matter of a good team with a little bit of puck luck.
I will guarantee you there are very few GMs thinking 7 years down the road. They don't produce and they're gone long before that. Dubas will worry about it then. Right now, not a chance. The cap should be way up by then anyway. Dubas' main thought now is how can I fit him in with/without dumping Nylander and every other scenario to fit AP in without killing the front line talent. It can be done if he gets rid of Johnsson and Kerfoot and signs a few UFA's on the cheap. It's going to be interesting if AP gets to the market. Teams will be lining up.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: princedpw on September 20, 2020, 10:03:07 AM
I?d be curious to know what we could get back if we tried to trade Marner.  I?d probably look for a Nazem Kadri-level center for the 3rd line as the biggest piece back, perhaps a scoring winger prospect who might be ready to take the leap, and a badish contract for a third/fourth liner or 6th D to even out the money a little.  11 million out in cap hit, and 2-3 players for ~7-8 million back in. I?d be hoping Tavares could elevate our 2nd line players to 1st line performance as he has in the past.  And our defense would be improved with Pietrangelo.

Not sure if there?s a team out there that would want to make that kind of deal.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Groundskeeper Willie on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
Quote from: princedpw on September 20, 2020, 10:03:07 AM
I?d be curious to know what we could get back if we tried to trade Marner.  I?d probably look for a Nazem Kadri-level center for the 3rd line as the biggest piece back, perhaps a scoring winger prospect who might be ready to take the leap, and a badish contract for a third/fourth liner or 6th D to even out the money a little.  11 million out in cap hit, and 2-3 players for ~7-8 million back in. I?d be hoping Tavares could elevate our 2nd line players to 1st line performance as he has in the past.  And our defense would be improved with Pietrangelo.

Not sure if there?s a team out there that would want to make that kind of deal.
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

Rumours have the flames wanting to make big changes, but I still don't see the Leafs moving Marner.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 20, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
Expanding on my post on the draft page thread I think the Leafs need to spend this off seasons efforts on building up their back end . Our defensive weakness clearly showed once again against the blue jackets

Whether the piece moving out is Marner or Nylander you have a great opportunity to parlay that chip into some much needed Defensive help. I?d prefer moving Nylander myself.

I know everybody would like to trade Nylander for a defenceman of equal calibre to his offence and around the same age but that?s probably gonna be too difficult to do. So then you look around for an older defenceman that may be fit the bill and low and behold an opportunity may become available with Alex Pietrangelo.

Then you have to think that maybe you can also parlay Nylander , into an future star defenseman TOO with a trade to Ottawa or Anaheim for a chance to pickup Jamie Drysdale . 2 possible superstar defensemen for Nylander (or Marner)

And, as an added bonus there is the opportunity to possibly nab Askarov the best goalie in the draft (and described as a candidate for becoming a generational goaltender) with their 2nd pick. I would imagine that selecting a goalie is very difficult proposition if you only have one 1st round pick in the draft. The risks may outweigh the reward.

But that may shift a little In your favour if it?s your second first round pick being used. I think it takes a little of the heat off the pick at least from a public perception.

Outside shot the stars all align for this to unfold but you have to roll the dice and take big risks sometimes if you want to greatly improve your teams chances of winning the big prize sometime in our lifetimes.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 20, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Crake on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 20, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Crake on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 20, 2020, 02:31:52 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 20, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Crake on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.
You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 20, 2020, 02:31:52 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 20, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Crake on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.
You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.
I don't think either will go if they get AP. I think Kerfoot and Johnsson will be moved instead.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 20, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
If the Leafs get two other guys named Peter and Angelo would we be ok?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 20, 2020, 08:37:48 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 20, 2020, 02:31:52 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 20, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Crake on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.
You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.
I don't think either will go if they get AP. I think Kerfoot and Johnsson will be moved instead.
Possibly but man thats gonna be horrid forward depth.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 20, 2020, 09:10:16 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

Yeah, never a Norris finalist, 2 top 5 Norris finishes, 1 additional top 10...That's not a bad resume by any means and I don't really want to argue what "elite" means but, you know, he's a legit top pairing guy but probably not top 10 or anything.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 07:59:06 AM
I think the Leafs can improve their defense by simply systematically committing their forwards to support the defense (Malhotra!).

Babcock looked at the defense and basically deployed a system that tried to ignore their puck handling incapability for a harder net front presence (stretch pass all the time, every time, with wingers not even touching the DZ).

Dubas has been getting puck handling defensemen every season he?s had some roster control. Win the boards more with fast feet and good sticks (where the puck lives most of the game), and get the puck moving up ice with support.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on September 21, 2020, 08:45:20 AM


Quote from: Nik on September 20, 2020, 09:10:16 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

Yeah, never a Norris finalist, 2 top 5 Norris finishes, 1 additional top 10...That's not a bad resume by any means and I don't really want to argue what "elite" means but, you know, he's a legit top pairing guy but probably not top 10 or anything.


I think it's fair to say that the fact that he shoots right significantly increases his perceived value as a player. You could almost argue that the real or perceived value of a quality right vs. left shot defensemen is not unlike the real or perceived value of a center vs. winger.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bullfrog on September 21, 2020, 08:54:44 AM
Quote from: princedpw on September 20, 2020, 10:03:07 AM
I?d be curious to know what we could get back if we tried to trade Marner.  I?d probably look for a Nazem Kadri-level center for the 3rd line as the biggest piece back, perhaps a scoring winger prospect who might be ready to take the leap, and a badish contract for a third/fourth liner or 6th D to even out the money a little.  11 million out in cap hit, and 2-3 players for ~7-8 million back in. I?d be hoping Tavares could elevate our 2nd line players to 1st line performance as he has in the past.  And our defense would be improved with Pietrangelo.

Not sure if there?s a team out there that would want to make that kind of deal.

Not sure there's a team out there that wouldn't make that deal. You're seriously undervaluing the return you'd get for someone who was on pace for his second straight 94 point season.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.

He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:35:09 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 20, 2020, 08:37:48 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 04:00:19 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 20, 2020, 02:31:52 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 20, 2020, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 20, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Crake on September 20, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
You might be able to talk Calgary into a deal for a package centred on Johnny Gaudreau. He's still youngish, signed for over $4 million less against the cap, and almost as good as Marner.

The leafs would be crazy to dump their 22 year old top point producer for Gaudreau. That's absolutely nuts.
Agree even tho Marner is 23!! Still a pup.
You are gonna have to trade Nylander or Marner and imo I don't trade the guy with higher goal scoring upside on a better contract. I trade Marner before Nylander because I think more teams undervalue Nylander vs. Marner and you get way more cap space.
I don't think either will go if they get AP. I think Kerfoot and Johnsson will be moved instead.
Possibly but man thats gonna be horrid forward depth.
And that's the issue. How much do you weaken the forward crew?
Without Kerfoot/Johnsson...
Hyman Matthews Marner
Robertson JT Nylander
Mikheyev Engvall Barabanov
Rodrigues Spezza Simmonds
That's a lot of pressure on the left hand forward group to produce and our 3rd line centre. Also depends on what you could get UFA's for. There are a few out there, bottom 6 guys that could help. Can you get a Simmonds/Thornton/Koivu for minimum/a mill? Would Koivu or Thornton be good options for 3rd/4th centres? I not sure they are. Maybe 1 of them or Spezza for the 4th line. Going to be interesting to see what Dubas can pull off.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:36:57 AM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.

He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
He's a true first pairing guy but I think I mislabelled him as elite. I don't think he's in Hedman's category but not far off.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:36:57 AM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.

He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
He's a true first pairing guy but I think I mislabelled him as elite. I don't think he's in Hedman's category but not far off.

Is anyone currently in Hedman's category?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.

He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?

These are my feelings here.  What's the alternative?

It's like we're awaiting the perfect age/stats/cap hit RHD to drop in their lap.

Pietrangelo is better than any defenseman they currently have.  Nik said no top 10 or anything, but I'm not so sure.

He'd be a great addition, and in a position the Leafs are currently in need.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:55:09 AM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:36:57 AM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 20, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 19, 2020, 05:09:49 PMThey definitely do and AP is an elite D man.

Is he, though, or is he just the best UFA defenceman available in recent years. He?s a very good player, but I?ve never really thought of him really being in the truly upper echelons of his position.

He?d be a great addition to the team, but I don?t think I?d give up any of the Leafs high end young forwards to fit him in.

He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?
He's a true first pairing guy but I think I mislabelled him as elite. I don't think he's in Hedman's category but not far off.

Is anyone currently in Hedman's category?
Nobody. Who is considered elite these days? We don't get to see enough of these other guys for oursleves and have to base it off what we mostly read and see in highlights. There are a lot of really good D men that I don't consider elite. I don't think AP gets consideration for the Norris because he doesn't put up the points that the others do. He's a 40 to mid 50 point D man, not that it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 09:56:35 AM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 09:41:38 AM
Pietrangelo is better than any defenseman they currently have.  Nik said no top 10 or anything, but I'm not so sure.

Nik said "probably" which seems to be a sign I'm not sure myself but it's pretty undeniable that his Norris voting record doesn't indicate someone universally seen as a top 10 defenseman in the league. To date he's got as many seasons without any Norris votes as he has top 10 finishes.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:55:09 AMI don't think AP gets consideration for the Norris because he doesn't put up the points that the others do. He's a 40 to mid 50 point D man, not that it's a bad thing.

Just as a point of comparison, between 2012-2013 and 17-18, Pietrangelo had season point totals of 42(pro-rated), 51, 46, 37, 48 and 54 points. That's an average of 46 points a year. His Norris finishes over that time are 14th, 5th, 22nd, no votes, 16th and 9th.

By comparison, in the same stretch, Drew Doughty had seasons of 38(again, pro-rated), 37, 46, 51, 44 and 60. That is also an average of 46 points a year. Doughty's Norris finishes were 9th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 7th, 2nd.

So it's not just a points thing.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:55:09 AMI don't think AP gets consideration for the Norris because he doesn't put up the points that the others do. He's a 40 to mid 50 point D man, not that it's a bad thing.

Just as a point of comparison, between 2012-2013 and 17-18, Pietrangelo had season point totals of 42(pro-rated), 51, 46, 37, 48 and 54 points. That's an average of 46 points a year. His Norris finishes over that time are 14th, 5th, 22nd, no votes, 16th and 9th.

By comparison, in the same stretch, Drew Doughty had seasons of 38(again, pro-rated), 37, 46, 51, 44 and 60. That is also an average of 46 points a year. Doughty's Norris finishes were 9th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 7th, 2nd.

So it's not just a points thing.
Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?

Absolutely. And there's also a hefty chunk of it just being a reputation thing where because Doughty established himself as a Norris contender so early on he's stuck there with some voters whether it's deserved or not.

I'm not saying Norris voting is the be-all and end-all, it has faults and biases. I just think it's a useful tool considering, as has been said, none of us can really judge other team's defensemen without watching them a lot.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
You could pull up some hockeyviz heatmaps and compare how much each defenseman (and other trade chips) mold their team's overall picture to go with rel stats and individual rates. This is just the free content, so it's limited to this past shortened season, vs the individual career maps, which shows their development (and team structure) changes over the years.

AP Off: (https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocOffWi/1920/STL/pietral90)(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocOffWo/1920/STL/pietral90)
AP Def:(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocDefWi/1920/STL/pietral90)(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocDefWoThumb/1920/STL/pietral90)
STL: (https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/shotLocOff/1920/STL)(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/shotLocDef/1920/STL)

VH Off: (https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocOffWi/1920/T.B/hedmavi90)(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocOffWo/1920/T.B/hedmavi90)
VH Def: (https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocDefWi/1920/T.B/hedmavi90)(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocDefWo/1920/T.B/hedmavi90)
TBL: (https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/shotLocOff/1920/T.B)(https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/shotLocDef/1920/T.B)

They're both the offensive quarterbacks for their team that at the very least do not hurt their teams on defense (unlike Rielly (https://hockeyviz.com/player/riellmo94/TOR/1920), who is a really good rushing QB but gives up a lot of DZ chances). I'd argue that STL and TBL's top forwards are quite a bit more committed to defensive support, relative to the Leafs, so it's a bit easier for AP and VH there.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 11:49:04 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?

Absolutely. And there's also a hefty chunk of it just being a reputation thing where because Doughty established himself as a Norris contender so early on he's stuck there with some voters whether it's deserved or not.

I'm not saying Norris voting is the be-all and end-all, it has faults and biases. I just think it's a useful tool considering, as has been said, none of us can really judge other team's defensemen without watching them a lot.
Thx. I was thinking the same thing in regards to team success and reputation is also a great point.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Groundskeeper Willie on September 21, 2020, 11:55:49 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 11:49:04 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
Thanks for that. Just curious do you think it could be based a little on how well the team is doing?

Absolutely. And there's also a hefty chunk of it just being a reputation thing where because Doughty established himself as a Norris contender so early on he's stuck there with some voters whether it's deserved or not.

I'm not saying Norris voting is the be-all and end-all, it has faults and biases. I just think it's a useful tool considering, as has been said, none of us can really judge other team's defensemen without watching them a lot.
Thx. I was thinking the same thing in regards to team success and reputation is also a great point.
Speaking of Doughty, if LA was willing to retain a large amount of his contract is he somebody worth considering or has he fallen off too much?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 11:59:10 AM
The Pursuit of Pietrangelo will pretty much tell the tale on how the Leafs have to run the forward groups. For the past 3-4 seasons, they've been going with offensive top 9 and nullification bottom 3 (Gauthier!). Last season, they sort of tried that (Mikheyev-Kerfoot-Kapanen), but because of injury and Kap being Kap, it sort of got stuck in neither offensive overmatch or defensive stalwart. It was a lukewarm waste.

Chase Pietrangelo to fruition and we gut the 3rd line, plug it with Rodrigues/Agostino-type players and basically turn it into a second slightly better 4th line that tries to ensure nothing happens until Matthews/Tavares line shows up again. Tap out after Pietrangelo asks for 9M+ and we can try to pad Kerfoot's line with more two-way scoring depth and turn it into a passive counter attacking group (and then try again next year with Hamilton).
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 12:00:27 PM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?

Hedman
Carlson
Josi
Burns (though, he's declining some, and is also a bit of an anomaly, as his best years came later in his career)

Those are the only guys in the league I'd consider to be elite guys year after year right now. There's a few others on the fringes who could get there with a few more really good years - like Jones, Makar, Hughes, maybe Chabot - and others that have dropped off in the last season or two - Doughty, Karlsson, etc. - but those 4 are the only ones I'd think of as the truly upper echelon in the league today. 

Pietrangelo is the best blueliner the Leafs have a shot at acquiring (that we know of), sure, but, I really question whether he adds enough to make up for the subtractions required for him to fit under the cap. Bringing him in at the cap number he's likely to sign for not only means taking pieces away from the roster, it also limits the team's ability to improve in other important areas.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 12:25:04 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 12:00:27 PM
Quote from: Deebo on September 21, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
He is the probably the best defenseman the Leafs have any realistic chance at accquiring in the forseeable future.

Who would you say currently is in up the true upper echelon of NHL defensemen?

Hedman
Carlson
Josi
Burns (though, he's declining some, and is also a bit of an anomaly, as his best years came later in his career)

Those are the only guys in the league I'd consider to be elite guys year after year right now. There's a few others on the fringes who could get there with a few more really good years - like Jones, Makar, Hughes, maybe Chabot - and others that have dropped off in the last season or two - Doughty, Karlsson, etc. - but those 4 are the only ones I'd think of as the truly upper echelon in the league today. 

Pietrangelo is the best blueliner the Leafs have a shot at acquiring (that we know of), sure, but, I really question whether he adds enough to make up for the subtractions required for him to fit under the cap. Bringing him in at the cap number he's likely to sign for not only means taking pieces away from the roster, it also limits the team's ability to improve in other important areas.

I heard today the Blues offered 8x8 but won't front load the contract with signing bonuses etc. Strickland said he could potentially leave for less money. He wants the money more upfront like others have. Says he feels disrespected by the Blues. I'm on the fence here. One hand I'd love to get him but I know it will cost Kerfoot/Johnsson minimum. Do we have enough in the system or could we get cheaper replacements? Maybe we go with 11F/7D next year? It's not like Johnsson and Kerfoot lit the world on fire. I think Johnsson had a terrible year especially for a guy that saw a lot of pp time so I'm not worried about him going. Kerfoot is the intriguing guy. Can he become that 3rd line centre? Can Engvall take a big leap forward? He only had 1 less goal then Kerfoot. Can we sign Rodrigues on the cheap? Is Spezza/Thornton/Koivu an option? Is Hallander close? Maybe Willy goes to 3rd centre here and there? At worst you're going to have Mikheyev/Robertson and Barabanov as 3rd line wingers. So many what ifs. I'd love to get Dubas', Keefe's and Shanny's thoughts.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 12:34:26 PM
I've flip-flopped about this a lot. On the one hand it'd just be fun to see how Dubas could fit him in, and it'd be amazing to watch Rielly play alongside an actual legitimate top pairing defenceman for the first time in his career (assuming he isn't the cap causality). But man there's just a ton of risk involved here too. There's a lot of defencemen in or around their 30s who aren't living up to their massive contracts right now (Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, Burns, OEL). And aside from OEL probably Pietrangelo never quite reached the highs of those players. If we sign him we really can't afford any drop in his play/on-ice value.

Maybe the biggest worry for me too is the majority of his contract would fall in a time where the cap is mostly stagnant. If we were still seeing cap growth of $2-4mil per year this would be a different story. Instead we could see little-to-no growth for the next 4 seasons. And it's likely not going to explode after that.


Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 01:04:56 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 12:34:26 PM
I've flip-flopped about this a lot. On the one hand it'd just be fun to see how Dubas could fit him in, and it'd be amazing to watch Rielly play alongside an actual legitimate top pairing defenceman for the first time in his career (assuming he isn't the cap causality). But man there's just a ton of risk involved here too. There's a lot of defencemen in or around their 30s who aren't living up to their massive contracts right now (Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, Burns, OEL). And aside from OEL probably Pietrangelo never quite reached the highs of those players. If we sign him we really can't afford any drop in his play/on-ice value.

Maybe the biggest worry for me too is the majority of his contract would fall in a time where the cap is mostly stagnant. If we were still seeing cap growth of $2-4mil per year this would be a different story. Instead we could see little-to-no growth for the next 4 seasons. And it's likely not going to explode after that.

You good at $8 X 7?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 01:26:05 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 01:04:56 PM
You good at $8 X 7?

For a team that needs a defenceman like Pietrangelo, doesn't already have multiple massive contracts on their books, that has the cap space to fit him in, and operates in a world where the cap is rising every single year that's probably a very fair UFA contract for a player of his caliber.

We only tick one of those four boxes. So I just don't think it's as simple as saying "yes of course we should sign him he's the best defenceman available".

Would I be good with that contract if it meant selling Nylander for less than he's worth to create the cap space, thereby leaving Marner as the only top-6 winger on the team? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Rielly after an off-year, which would balance out our L-D defence a little more evenly but still leave our defence very top heavy? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Andersen and only being able to replace him with a $2mil type goalie? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant having to trade Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall and completely destroying our forward depth? Again, not sure.

So signing Pietrangelo might finally solve that massive hole we've had on our right defence but it's also bound to create a massive hole somewhere else on the team. And again a flat cap means that it's not just this season that casualties will have to be made. If Rielly isn't the one who gets traded he's basically 100% gone after his deal is up. It could mean we never really have the available cap space to have a $5mil type goalie again. It could mean our depth continues to get worse later in his contract once guys like Hyman, Mikheyev, and Robertson need new contracts.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 01:04:56 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 12:34:26 PM
I've flip-flopped about this a lot. On the one hand it'd just be fun to see how Dubas could fit him in, and it'd be amazing to watch Rielly play alongside an actual legitimate top pairing defenceman for the first time in his career (assuming he isn't the cap causality). But man there's just a ton of risk involved here too. There's a lot of defencemen in or around their 30s who aren't living up to their massive contracts right now (Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, Burns, OEL). And aside from OEL probably Pietrangelo never quite reached the highs of those players. If we sign him we really can't afford any drop in his play/on-ice value.

Maybe the biggest worry for me too is the majority of his contract would fall in a time where the cap is mostly stagnant. If we were still seeing cap growth of $2-4mil per year this would be a different story. Instead we could see little-to-no growth for the next 4 seasons. And it's likely not going to explode after that.

You good at $8 X 7?
That would get me leaning more to the yes side of things. Who knows, maybe he takes less to come home, like JT?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 01:47:55 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 01:26:05 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 01:04:56 PM
You good at $8 X 7?

For a team that needs a defenceman like Pietrangelo, doesn't already have multiple massive contracts on their books, that has the cap space to fit him in, and operates in a world where the cap is rising every single year that's probably a very fair UFA contract for a player of his caliber.

We only tick one of those four boxes. So I just don't think it's as simple as saying "yes of course we should sign him he's the best defenceman available".

Would I be good with that contract if it meant selling Nylander for less than he's worth to create the cap space, thereby leaving Marner as the only top-6 winger on the team? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Rielly after an off-year, which would balance out our L-D defence a little more evenly but still leave our defence very top heavy? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Andersen and only being able to replace him with a $2mil type goalie? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant having to trade Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall and completely destroying our forward depth? Again, not sure.

So signing Pietrangelo might finally solve that massive hole we've had on our right defence but it's also bound to create a massive hole somewhere else on the team. And again a flat cap means that it's not just this season that casualties will have to be made. If Rielly isn't the one who gets traded he's basically 100% gone after his deal is up. It could mean we never really have the available cap space to have a $5mil type goalie again. It could mean our depth continues to get worse later in his contract once guys like Hyman, Mikheyev, and Robertson need new contracts.
Stop making sense! Some very valid points. Of course this is all a moot point if someone opens the purse and overpays or he just signs back with St Louis.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bullfrog on September 21, 2020, 03:08:19 PM
I'd be super stoked to land Pietrangelo. But, with the way this team is structured (the four huge forward contracts), it's probably going to have to be a platoon defense. Unlikely, but making a trade for someone like Brett Pesce would probably really help and a much wiser use of funds.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 03:19:20 PM
How close is Pietrangelo now to Zdeno Chara back in 2005-6? I think we should take a swing but with a hard line limit where the hole that is punched to accommodate AP is too arduous to repair.
https://twitter.com/SammyT_51/status/1308119519689240577

I'm maxed at 7.27M AAV over 7 yrs with whatever structure is nice and attractive for him to move his young family, but also give some flexibility to both parties if it ends up not working as expected, while still leveraging MLSE infinite cash. Yeah the AAV is less than STL's 7.7M offer, but they hate NMCs and SBs.
Example:
5 (4M SB, NMC)
7 (6M SB, NMC)
8.89 (7M SB, NMC)
10.5 (10M SB, m-NTC)
8 (7M SB, m-NTC)
6 (5M SB, m-NTC)
5.5 (4M SB, m-NTC)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: L K on September 21, 2020, 03:45:23 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 01:26:05 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 01:04:56 PM
You good at $8 X 7?

For a team that needs a defenceman like Pietrangelo, doesn't already have multiple massive contracts on their books, that has the cap space to fit him in, and operates in a world where the cap is rising every single year that's probably a very fair UFA contract for a player of his caliber.

We only tick one of those four boxes. So I just don't think it's as simple as saying "yes of course we should sign him he's the best defenceman available".

Would I be good with that contract if it meant selling Nylander for less than he's worth to create the cap space, thereby leaving Marner as the only top-6 winger on the team? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Rielly after an off-year, which would balance out our L-D defence a little more evenly but still leave our defence very top heavy? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant trading Andersen and only being able to replace him with a $2mil type goalie? I'm not sure.

Would I be good with that contract if it meant having to trade Johnsson/Kerfoot/Engvall and completely destroying our forward depth? Again, not sure.

So signing Pietrangelo might finally solve that massive hole we've had on our right defence but it's also bound to create a massive hole somewhere else on the team. And again a flat cap means that it's not just this season that casualties will have to be made. If Rielly isn't the one who gets traded he's basically 100% gone after his deal is up. It could mean we never really have the available cap space to have a $5mil type goalie again. It could mean our depth continues to get worse later in his contract once guys like Hyman, Mikheyev, and Robertson need new contracts.

These are basically problems with our roster without Pietrangelo.

If the cap stays flat for 2 years for sure and maybe as far as 4 years.  Unless we have a drastic change in how teams get cap relief with a stagnant revenue stream the Leafs aren't going to have the money to re-sign guys like Hyman or sign a 5 million dollar defenseman because we don't have the cap space to sign those guys now.  Obviously our 3rd/4th line are going to have to be populated by rookies and cheap veterans but that is going to be incredibly hit or miss year over year. 

It's not Dubas' fault that the league has a hard cap and COVID hit but the Leafs are going to be hard pressed to have reliable depth even without Pietrangelo. 
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: louisstamos on September 21, 2020, 04:10:33 PM
Just had a thought - is there any way acquiring an LTIR player again would help the Leafs again in this scenario?  Not so much for Pietrangelo, but if he's signed at $7 or $8 per, then for squeezing the last couple of depth guys into the lineup?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 04:13:39 PM
Quote from: L K on September 21, 2020, 03:45:23 PM
These are basically problems with our roster without Pietrangelo.

If the cap stays flat for 2 years for sure and maybe as far as 4 years.  Unless we have a drastic change in how teams get cap relief with a stagnant revenue stream the Leafs aren't going to have the money to re-sign guys like Hyman or sign a 5 million dollar defenseman because we don't have the cap space to sign those guys now.  Obviously our 3rd/4th line are going to have to be populated by rookies and cheap veterans but that is going to be incredibly hit or miss year over year. 

It's not Dubas' fault that the league has a hard cap and COVID hit but the Leafs are going to be hard pressed to have reliable depth even without Pietrangelo. 

You're definitely not wrong. The flat cap has really, really screwed the Leafs. But acquiring yet another big priced contract just exuberates their problems with the caps. In the past I've talked about signing both Brodie and a Gudas/DeMelo which would likely result in us needing about $8mil in cap space for them and I'd be more comfortable with that from a bookkeeping perspective just because of how much more flexibility we have with a $5mil and $3mil contract vs. a one $8mil contract.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 04:38:28 PM
Quote from: herman on September 21, 2020, 03:19:20 PM
How close is Pietrangelo now to Zdeno Chara back in 2005-6?

Close-ish but Chara was a little younger and coming off seasons where he was a 1st and then a 2nd team all-star. Chara absolutely was in that upper echelon of defensemen when he signed.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 04:38:28 PM
Close-ish but Chara was a little younger and coming off seasons where he was a 1st and then a 2nd team all-star. Chara absolutely was in that upper echelon of defensemen when he signed.

Yeah. Chara was unquestioningly one of the top 3 defencemen in the league when he signed with the Bruins. Pietrangelo is not that.

A better analog would be Zubov - a very good RHD, who had a couple seasons among the top handful in the league at his position, but was generally considered to be a tier below the elite guys (granted, the comparison is not helpful for UFA signing value, just for general value around the league).
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 04:56:33 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 04:38:28 PM
Close-ish but Chara was a little younger and coming off seasons where he was a 1st and then a 2nd team all-star. Chara absolutely was in that upper echelon of defensemen when he signed.

Yeah. Chara was unquestioningly one of the top 3 defencemen in the league when he signed with the Bruins. Pietrangelo is not that.

A better analog would be Zubov - a very good RHD, who had a couple seasons among the top handful in the league at his position, but was generally considered to be a tier below the elite guys (granted, the comparison is not helpful for UFA signing value, just for general value around the league).

Chara rightfully then got 17.05% of the cap (7.5M over 5 years). I don't think Pietrangelo is asking for more than McDavid. He's looking at just north of 10%. Stanley Cup captain vs All Star accolades?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 05:06:39 PM
Quote from: herman on September 21, 2020, 04:56:33 PM
Chara rightfully then got 17.05% of the cap (7.5M over 5 years). I don't think Pietrangelo is asking for more than McDavid. He's looking at just north of 10%. Stanley Cup captain vs All Star accolades?

Looking at deals as %'s of cap can be useful when trying to measure guys in different years but you can't forget the real dollars involved. The cap growing hasn't typically meant that individual salaries have grown to keep pace and no matter what the cap was in 2006, Chara wasn't getting offered 13 million.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 05:26:52 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 05:06:39 PM
Quote from: herman on September 21, 2020, 04:56:33 PM
Chara rightfully then got 17.05% of the cap (7.5M over 5 years). I don't think Pietrangelo is asking for more than McDavid. He's looking at just north of 10%. Stanley Cup captain vs All Star accolades?

Looking at deals as %'s of cap can be useful when trying to measure guys in different years but you can't forget the real dollars involved. The cap growing hasn't typically meant that individual salaries have grown to keep pace and no matter what the cap was in 2006, Chara wasn't getting offered 13 million.

True; Chara comparison might be too far back (2 CBAs). Any recent signings of a Chara caliber to set a high water mark? Karlsson (14.47%) before the injury; Doughty (13.84%) before he stopped trying? Pietrangelo is targeting the Josi (11.12%) deal as a comparable and anchored nominally by Brodin's (7.36%) (not to mention Faulk's 7.98% lol) and I think that's a pretty fair range (10.25% = ~8.3M).
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 06:15:22 PM
I don't think anyone here is really suggesting that AP wouldn't get ~$8m long term on the market. 

I think we're trying to figure out if the Leafs can make this work, and if it's worth the subtractions to the roster to get there.

Maybe they could double down on their offensive strategy and go the route of having a bottom six filled with sub $1m contracts, and the ELC twins on the back end to make Pietrangelo cap affordable in the short term.

Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:04:53 PM

I have to be honest, I'm still really unsure of the math here. Isn't any serious pursuit of Pietrangelo dependent not only on the Leafs dealing Marner or Nylander but also on getting effectively nothing back for them in terms of salary? So the idea that the signing would be a net gain of any considerable measure is predicated on what...getting a high contributing piece back still on their rookie deal?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:04:53 PM

I have to be honest, I'm still really unsure of the math here. Isn't any serious pursuit of Pietrangelo dependent not only on the Leafs dealing Marner or Nylander but also on getting effectively nothing back for them in terms of salary? So the idea that the signing would be a net gain of any considerable measure is predicated on what...getting a high contributing piece back still on their rookie deal?
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.

Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 07:30:54 PM
Or Andersen
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:33:58 PM

But I guess what I'm really saying is that whatever salary gets moved out you can't really take any salary back for it. Because I've seen a few trade proposals in this thread that had the Leafs getting actual players back for Marner/Nylander and that seems like it can't happen for sure.

Even getting ELC players you'd have to resign yourself to the fact that you couldn't sign them whenever their deals were up.

It's just bizarre how this is a league where the closer a player gets to being paid what they're actually worth, the more their "value" is effectively zero.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 21, 2020, 08:08:28 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.

Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.

If the Leafs sign AP, Dermott can go for futures.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 08:37:51 PM
One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:

Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4

Then they're both UFA.  Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 08:43:23 PM
More fun:

Tavares: $8.6m X 5
Matthews: $7.8m X 4
Andersen : $1m X 1

Rielly is actually equal to his cap hit: $5m X 2.

EDIT:  All UFA at contract maturity.  Make your bets everyone...the window is closing very quickly.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.

Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...

Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033

Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167

Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k

plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.

Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.

Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...

Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033

Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167

Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k

plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 21, 2020, 09:10:51 PM
If you shoehorn Pieterangelo in without moving the big 4 aren't you essentially forced to let Reilly and Hyman walk at the end of their deals?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 21, 2020, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 08:37:51 PM
One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:

Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4

Then they're both UFA.  Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.

Low total dollars relative to the whole on Marner's deal, but which owner is going to sign off on dropping ~10M and then 7Mx4 in signing bonuses with COVID finances that are so cash strapped they're cutting ops and running an internal cap ON TOP of the trade capital that the Leafs would capitulate on (cost-controlled young defenseman like Heiskanen or top 5OA picks + additional cost-controlled youth?)?

They're both staying.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:25:59 PM
 
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.

Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...

Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033

Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167

Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k

plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
If AP gets hurt we go back to last year's D core. We did run for a period last year with Rielly, Muzz and CC out. Injuries happen. We also don't know how good Lehtonen is He could surprise. As for the forwards. I think the weak spot is 3rd line centre but I think the wingers are fine.
Johnsson was bad last year. He was on a 40 point pace while getting the 7th most PP time. Kerfoot was worse. Mikheyev was way ahead of both in points per 60(without PP time) and Even points per 60. 

Anyway, I was just goofing around to see if AP could fit in. I'm sure they might be able to find a 3rd line centre, possibly a vet that would sign for a low hit. Could Thornton be that guy? Koivu? I don't know, I haven't really thought much about who could play there.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:32:36 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 21, 2020, 09:10:51 PM
If you shoehorn Pieterangelo in without moving the big 4 aren't you essentially forced to let Reilly and Hyman walk at the end of their deals?
Hyman would have to accept a similar deal or he'd be gone unless the Leafs go with a cheaper goalie. Freddie and his 5 mill are off the books after next season. Maybe Scott or Woll will be ready? Who knows? You also gain 1.2 mill in cap space when Rielly is up as Kessel comes off the books.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PMMan that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 21, 2020, 10:29:51 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 09:25:59 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 21, 2020, 07:25:10 PM
Quote from: Nik on September 21, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 21, 2020, 07:12:48 PM
Kind of. They could potentially move Kerfoot and Johnsson instead of Nylander for picks/prospects/elc's and have enough to sign Pietrangelo.

Could you though? Right now the Leafs have 6.1 million in cap space. If you trade Kerfoot and Johnsson that goes to 13 million. Assuming you could sign Pietrangelo for 8 per, that would leave you with 5 million to sign 6 forwards and Dermott.

Dermott and Engvall would both need to go as well. Dermott wouldn't be a big loss with Pietrangelo's addition. Losing those 3 forwards though would really hurt, especially since basically everyone in the bottom-6 would need to be on sub-$1mil contracts and I'm not sure where you're getting a viable 3C for that.
Engvall can definitely stay. Dermott can stay but it depends what he signs for.
Here's what I came up with goofing around...

Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.25) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.25) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1.25)
F- 50,486,033

Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Dermott(1.25)
D-23,019,167

Kuemper(4.5) Campbell(1.65)
G-6,150,000
If you stay with Freddie we add another 500k

plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 80,605,200 and would leave the Leafs with 894800 in cap space.
It can be done.
Man that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.
If AP gets hurt we go back to last year's D core. We did run for a period last year with Rielly, Muzz and CC out. Injuries happen. We also don't know how good Lehtonen is He could surprise. As for the forwards. I think the weak spot is 3rd line centre but I think the wingers are fine.
Johnsson was bad last year. He was on a 40 point pace while getting the 7th most PP time. Kerfoot was worse. Mikheyev was way ahead of both in points per 60(without PP time) and Even points per 60. 

Anyway, I was just goofing around to see if AP could fit in. I'm sure they might be able to find a 3rd line centre, possibly a vet that would sign for a low hit. Could Thornton be that guy? Koivu? I don't know, I haven't really thought much about who could play there.
Last years core? We did have Ceci and Barrie also. As much as I didn't like them they're still better depth than what we'd have with AP injured...
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 21, 2020, 10:31:31 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PMMan that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.
I'm totally on the Gudas & Brodie/De Melo train and seeing if you can manoever after that. Also what people forget is you can still make a decent deal at the deadline if we've accrued enough space.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PMMan that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.

Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 09:15:43 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 10:29:51 PM
Last years core? We did have Ceci and Barrie also. As much as I didn't like them they're still better depth than what we'd have with AP injured...
Our core as it stands now is Muzzin, Rielly, Holl and Sandin, Lehtonen, Liljegren, Rosen, Marincin. Lehtonen is the wild card here even if they sign Dermott to a reasonable hit.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PMMan that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.

Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence?

It's not a matter of holding onto one thing or another, it's just a recognition that the reality of the cap makes peeling off one of those 4 guys a likely zero-sum game. It's rearranging talent instead of improving it and I think that strikes a lot of people as not being a particularly effective method of the team actually getting better. I appreciate that after some tough playoff losses some fans are going to be content with a team that's just different as opposed to better but I don't think that should be the team's goal.

I get that there's a lot of impatience out there but realistically the team's only chance of improving by the margins they need to is going to come through internal development.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 09:42:13 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM
Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.

There's a very fine line between the Leafs being one of the better offensive teams in the league and them being an average or worse team. With Kapanen already traded, losing Nylander's offence without replacing a significant chunk of it would almost certainly mean the defensive improvements only work to even things out (at best, quite frankly - we're talking about removing a significant piece of the offence without anyone to replace them) rather than improving the team.

Everyone is so focused on upgrading the blueline to fix the defensive issues, and I think some people over-estimate the defensive impact of adding Pietrangelo. He'll help, but he won't be a cure-all by any means. With the loss of offence required to make this work, unless the team as a whole gets better defensively, adding to the blueline alone doesn't move the needle enough to make a real difference. They'd be a slightly more balanced team (kind of - offence would become even more top-heavy, but blueline would be less of a skeleton crew), but they wouldn't necessarily be better.

Defence is a team game. Always has been, always will be. To see the improvements we really want, the Leafs need to add defensive help/improve their defensive play without subtracting significantly from their offence. Anything else is basically treading water.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PMMan that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.

Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.

The return is just not going to be as pronounced unless you offer up a real offensive talent like Nylander. Sure you could get lucky with some decent picks for those two, but your chances of drafting a really good defenseman diminish by leaps and bounds.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 09:44:47 AM

Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 09:49:18 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 22, 2020, 09:44:47 AM
Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.

Yeah. Where the Leafs are drafting this year (at least, in the first round), the higher ceiling guys are forwards (or Askarov, if he's still on the board). If there were more highly thought of defencemen available in this year's draft, I might see the wisdom in going for one (best player available and all), but, there aren't really. There's two guys who will almost certainly get taken in the top 10, and then there's a bunch of guys that aren't consistently ranked as first rounders. Not the big swings the Leafs need to take with their picks right now.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:50:21 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 22, 2020, 09:44:47 AM

Also, for what it's worth, I think the last thing the team should be looking to draft is a defenseman. Forward depth and goaltending are much bigger issues right now.

The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 09:57:27 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:50:21 AM
The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.

The Leafs don't have 2 first round picks, unless you're assuming one would be returning in the supposed Nylander trade, but even then I still wouldn't be looking to draft defensemen. Being realistic about time frames means that any defenseman drafted is still likely 3-4 years away from being a solid contributor or, effectively, not until the next iteration of the team.

Because of where the team is looking for solid forward prospects with a realistic chance to contribute in the next couple of years is probably their best chance to improve the current team in a meaningful way.

Also, with the cap situation the way it is, I'd probably hold off on assuming that teams will just be lining up to throw awesome trade packages at the Leafs for Nylander
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 10:09:26 AM
Quote from: herman on September 21, 2020, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 21, 2020, 08:37:51 PM
One thing to remember though is what's left on their contracts in real dollars:

Marner = $6.06m X 5
Nylander = $6.13 X 4

Then they're both UFA.  Now, given COVID finances over the next season or so, how do they look from a return perspective from teams that are more cash strapped.

Low total dollars relative to the whole on Marner's deal, but which owner is going to sign off on dropping ~10M and then 7Mx4 in signing bonuses with COVID finances that are so cash strapped they're cutting ops and running an internal cap ON TOP of the trade capital that the Leafs would capitulate on (cost-controlled young defenseman like Heiskanen or top 5OA picks + additional cost-controlled youth?)?

They're both staying.

We shall see.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:12:17 AM

I kind of feel like the people advocating for trading Marner and Nylander need to be slightly more specific with their thoughts on what the returns would actually be(and from who) because it seems like a lot of the value being espoused there is pretty hard to pin down.

Like, I like Nylander a lot but I don't think he's a good enough player that teams in need of a franchise type player would eagerly give away their shots at one.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 22, 2020, 09:57:27 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:50:21 AM
The return for trading a solid offensive piece like Nylander should give you more options to address any area you see fit. As does having 2 selections in the first round.

The Leafs don't have 2 first round picks, unless you're assuming one would be returning in the supposed Nylander trade, but even then I still wouldn't be looking to draft defensemen. Being realistic about time frames means that any defenseman drafted is still likely 3-4 years away from being a solid contributor or, effectively, not until the next iteration of the team.

Because of where the team is looking for solid forward prospects with a realistic chance to contribute in the next couple of years is probably their best chance to improve the current team in a meaningful way.

Also, with the cap situation the way it is, I'd probably hold off on assuming that teams will just be lining up to throw awesome trade packages at the Leafs for Nylander

Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.

And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 10:15:25 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 09:00:24 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 21, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 21, 2020, 09:00:39 PMMan that forward group is bad. I really do think we're better off with added depth. Also could you imagine if AP gets injured? To me its just too much to tie up into one more asset. We need depth.

That?s where I?m at, too. As nice as it would be to add a top pair RHD, I don?t think it improves the team enough in the short-term, as it would decimate the potential for any real depth on the roster, and it puts them in a tough position to improve in the long-term. I mean, in Guilt Trip?s proposed roster, there isn?t enough cap space to carry extra skaters on a full time basis - there?s room for one at league minimum,  but that?s it.

It?s unfortunate, but I don?t think there?s a way for the Leafs to sign Pietrangelo without subtracting significant talent elsewhere - and that might just make it a zero sum equation.

Why does it seem so necessary to everyone the need to hold on to this overloaded offence? As painful as it feels now, the only (and best) way forward is to dump Nylander or Marner for a) defensive help now b) defensive help in the future c) a combination of both. Dump Nylander for a pick or 2. Draft some D-men and bring AP aboard. There really isn't a better option to improve this teams greatest area of need.
I would try to keep the top 4 guys and go the Kerfoot/Johnsson route if I was going to take a run at AP. That's a big if because I'm still undecided. I wonder how many people here even knowing our depth, would do Kerfoot/Johnsson for AP, making his 8 mill for 7 years, in a trade? When I look at it this way, I think it's a no brainer. You make that deal, no? We're losing 17 goals, 48 pts from these guys. AP scored 16 goals, 52 pts. If you add in Kappy you need to find another 13 goals. I think Robertson and Barabanov can more then take care of that.
So on one hand.........and back on the fence I go lol.

The return is just not going to be as pronounced unless you offer up a real offensive talent like Nylander. Sure you could get lucky with some decent picks for those two, but your chances of drafting a really good defenseman diminish by leaps and bounds.
But we can't afford to lose Nylander's offence because we have no one to replace it. We can potentially get away with losing Kerfoot's and Johnsson's though. The key is to create space and not destroy your forward group and get some futures back via picks/prospect. Heck maybe a cheap 3rd line plugger. Nylander is too good to give up on right now.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 10:21:15 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:12:17 AM

I kind of feel like the people advocating for trading Marner and Nylander need to be slightly more specific with their thoughts on what the returns would actually be(and from who) because it seems like a lot of the value being espoused there is pretty hard to pin down.

Like, I like Nylander a lot but I don't think he's a good enough player that teams in need of a franchise type player would eagerly give away their shots at one.
I think some see Kappy getting a first should mean Nylander would bring more.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.

I don't see any reason why the team would implode but even then I don't think this is about a "now vs. later" schism. I think it's about being somewhat patient with the prospects we do have and looking to bolster other areas of the prospect base. The Leafs prospect base right now is sort of unquestionably strongest on defense with Liljegren and Sandin clearly outshining any of the guys the Leafs have in the forward ranks.

So when I look a couple years down the line the improvement on defense I see is from those guys(and, hopefully, Dermott/Rielly as they continue to grow). I look at the Leafs' system right now, however, and I don't see a ton of good candidates for filling out the bottom six.

Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.

I don't necessarily disagree(although I guess it depends on what you mean by "high end") but I don't think that would be a good value return.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMO
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:25:09 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 10:21:15 AMI think some see Kappy getting a first should mean Nylander would bring more.

I think that's a safe assumption but that's what I'm talking about when I say specificity would help. Because a lot of teams with internal caps and their own big RFA's to sign in a year or two are going to be wary about bringing in big contracts no matter how good the player is. Expecting to get full and fair value on top of that might be a big ask.

I think there's a reason reaction around the league to the Kapanen trade was as loud as it was. I don't think you'll see a lot of similar moves made in the coming years.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:28:38 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
Well I can't argue with most of your logic here, but the Leafs are still a young club. So while you want to look after the here-and-now I still think its important to look forward a few years too, incase things implode in the short term. AP could certainly be your answer for improvement in the immediate term on D.

I don't see any reason why the team would implode but even then I don't think this is about a "now vs. later" schism. I think it's about being somewhat patient with the prospects we do have and looking to bolster other areas of the prospect base. The Leafs prospect base right now is sort of unquestionably strongest on defense with Liljegren and Sandin clearly outshining any of the guys the Leafs have in the forward ranks.

So when I look a couple years down the line the improvement on defense I see is from those guys(and, hopefully, Dermott/Rielly as they continue to grow). I look at the Leafs' system right now, however, and I don't see a ton of good candidates for filling out the bottom six.

Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
And yeah. Call me crazy. I do think there are teams, even now, that would be willing to part with a high end draft pick or two for Nylander.

I don't necessarily disagree(although I guess it depends on what you mean by "high end") but I don't think that would be a good value return.

I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:36:32 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:28:38 AM
I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.

Ok but I'm not sure that fundamentally changes the dynamic. If that happens, the Leafs will still have Liljegren and Sandin and not much prospect depth anywhere else.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:38:25 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 22, 2020, 10:36:32 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:28:38 AM
I may have used the word 'implode' a little too loosely. What I meant was if we saw them missing the playoffs or getting knocked out early again over the duration of next few seasons.

Ok but I'm not sure that fundamentally changes the dynamic. If that happens, the Leafs will still have Liljegren and Sandin and not much prospect depth anywhere else.

Thats what I'm saying. 'If' they can secure some picks from a Nylander trade it can fill that cupboard a little more.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 11:00:15 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMO
Yes but that doesn't mean you need to weaken your forward core. You're trading away a 24 year old 30 goal scorer that's locked up for 4 more years at a great rate. You don't trade a player like that for picks unless he isn't signed, or under performs. You can strengthen your D by other less destructive ways. You may not get the same return, but you do less damage to the current group.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 11:34:40 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 11:00:15 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 10:23:55 AM
I think 'needing' Nylander is bit of an overstatement. The Leafs are top heavy. What they need is more balance on defence IMO
Yes but that doesn't mean you need to weaken your forward core. You're trading away a 24 year old 30 goal scorer that's locked up for 4 more years at a great rate. You don't trade a player like that for picks unless he isn't signed, or under performs. You can strengthen your D by other less destructive ways. You may not get the same return, but you do less damage to the current group.

I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 22, 2020, 12:51:35 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 11:34:40 AM
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: herman on September 22, 2020, 12:51:35 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 11:34:40 AM
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

NJ at #7 could use Nylander.

Anaheim?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 22, 2020, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: herman on September 22, 2020, 12:51:35 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 11:34:40 AM
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

NJ at #7 could use Nylander.

Anaheim?

Sell me, a noted Nylander-homer*, on the idea. Make it worth my while to even consider this. Especially this super smart idea to dump Nylander for no salary coming back so we can afford a just past-prime UFA tier 2 RD.

* Willy is Shanahan's son's favourite, btw
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
Quote from: herman on September 22, 2020, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: herman on September 22, 2020, 12:51:35 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 11:34:40 AM
I?m thinking more about the possible return than the players that depart. Sure, You?d be trying to move out 2 useful players, which in itself may prove to be more difficult, instead of Nylander. That also  leaves 2 spots to fill ...not just one. But that?s exactly what you?re Likely going to get in return ..useful players.

Of course the whole thing is a crapshoot and like Nik alluded to , you need a partner willing to flip you a top five pick for Nylander for this whole thing to work out as I?ve suggested. But I?d rather shoot high and try and fill out the team with the highest end prospects as possible than sort of shuffle the chairs around.

Why not take a look at the 4 teams who have top 5 picks this coming draft and see which one would a) want Nylander b) have cap space c) have assets the Leafs would actually give up a cost-controlled 30G+ scoring/playmaking/transition-savant hybrid winger-centre who has very good chemistry with two of their largest personnel investments and make a suggestion since you have such clarity on this matter?

NJ at #7 could use Nylander.

Anaheim?

Sell me, a noted Nylander-homer*, on the idea. Make it worth my while to even consider this. Especially this super smart idea to dump Nylander for no salary coming back so we can afford a just past-prime UFA tier 2 RD.

* Willy is Shanahan's son's favourite, btw

I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.
Agree. He's not going anywhere and now I kind of hope AP signs with St. Louis or somewhere else. Would still like a Kuemper for Freddie deal though.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

I believe this too. GMs are looking to win now, unless they're in a rebuild mode. I didn't say this would happen. Only that it would be the best way to improve this clubs defense. Having said that, I think we can all conclude AP is not likely coming to Toronto no matter how much any of us want to see it happen.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:55:55 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 22, 2020, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

I believe this too. GMs are looking to win now, unless they're in a rebuild mode. I didn't say this would happen. Only that it would be the best way to improve this clubs defense. Having said that, I think we can all conclude AP is not likely coming to Toronto no matter how much any of us want to see it happen.

I'm not as sure as you are about AP.  I think Shanahan and Dubas are going to be under some pretty strong pressure to dramatically improve their weak spots, and they've already tried the band-aid approach with Barrie and Ceci to little success.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 22, 2020, 03:10:20 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

Ding ding ding. Kerfoot/Johnsson (same total cap hit as Nylander) are also way easier to move individually in cap space opening trades without either side feeling like it's a loss.

The only way I'd trade Nylander is for an equivalent value player in a position of need, and use the cap differential to try to replace the goals. Say Nylander+ for Ekblad+, or maybe Parayko+, or Heiskanen/Q.Hughes/Makar. None of that weak Pesce/Manson/Montour garbage GMs were floating during the contract standoff.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: herman on September 22, 2020, 03:10:20 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 22, 2020, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 22, 2020, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not going to try to sell you on anything.

I just don't think the top-5 pickers are needing Nylander right now.  They're all in rebuild mode.

I believe that's the point herman is trying to make here. The teams with high draft picks are better served holding on to them (not to mention the other assets the Leafs would need to make a deal work). The hypothetical trade of Nylander for a high 1st round pick is a fantasy, not a reality.

Ding ding ding. Kerfoot/Johnsson (same total cap hit as Nylander) are also way easier to move individually in cap space opening trades without either side feeling like it's a loss.

The only way I'd trade Nylander is for an equivalent value player in a position of need, and use the cap differential to try to replace the goals. Say Nylander+ for Ekblad+, or maybe Parayko+, or Heiskanen/Q.Hughes/Makar. None of that weak Pesce/Manson/Montour garbage GMs were floating during the contract standoff.
Agreed. If Nylander is going Dubas needs to bring back a high end D man like you said. Anything less is a serious loss.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 22, 2020, 09:11:18 PM
Quote from: herman on September 21, 2020, 03:19:20 PM
I'm maxed at 7.27M AAV over 7 yrs with whatever structure is nice and attractive for him to move his young family, but also give some flexibility to both parties if it ends up not working as expected, while still leveraging MLSE infinite cash. Yeah the AAV is less than STL's 7.7M offer, but they hate NMCs and SBs.
Example:
5 (4M SB, NMC)
7 (6M SB, NMC)
8.89 (7M SB, NMC)
10.5 (10M SB, m-NTC)
8 (7M SB, m-NTC)
6 (5M SB, m-NTC)
5.5 (4M SB, m-NTC)

https://twitter.com/account4hockey/status/1308561778952081408
Hello there
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 09:53:26 PM
Andy Strickland said that yesterday on First Up.  AP wants it structured like many do now. St Louis told him we don't do that. He also wants a NMC. Strickland said he wouldn't be surprised if he took less somewhere else if it's structured the way he'd like. Says he feels disrespected. We'll see.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 22, 2020, 10:57:06 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 22, 2020, 09:53:26 PM
Andy Strickland said that yesterday on First Up.  AP wants it structured like many do now. St Louis told him we don't do that. He also wants a NMC. Strickland said he wouldn't be surprised if he took less somewhere else if it's structured the way he'd like. Says he feels disrespected. We'll see.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2020/09/23/toronto-maple-leafs-rumours-alex-pietrangelo-rights-trade-signing-bonuses/
Transcription
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 23, 2020, 08:18:47 AM
St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 23, 2020, 08:38:13 AM
I'm coming home
I'm coming home
Tell the world I'm coming home
Let the rain wash away all the pain of yesterday
I know my kingdom awaits and they've forgiven my mistakes
I'm coming home, I'm coming home
Tell the world that I'm coming
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 23, 2020, 08:58:45 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 23, 2020, 08:18:47 AM
St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.

No NMCs either.

If we can leverage bonuses and NMC/NTC assurances into a lower AAV and term (a la Muzzin)...
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:24:42 AM
Quote from: herman on September 23, 2020, 08:58:45 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 23, 2020, 08:18:47 AM
St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.

No NMCs either.

If we can leverage bonuses and NMC/NTC assurances into a lower AAV and term (a la Muzzin)...

You can guarantee any deal the Leafs offer will be league minimum actual salary and everything in signing bonus.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:24:42 AM
Quote from: herman on September 23, 2020, 08:58:45 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 23, 2020, 08:18:47 AM
St. Louis really, really doesn't do signing bonuses eh. The only player on the team who gets one is ROR and that contract is from Buffalo.

No NMCs either.

If we can leverage bonuses and NMC/NTC assurances into a lower AAV and term (a la Muzzin)...

You can guarantee any deal the Leafs offer will be league minimum actual salary and everything in signing bonus.
Def, they offer signing bonuses in almost every new deal. Makes a player easier to trade down the road. Win for the player and the team.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 23, 2020, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??

I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road.  I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 23, 2020, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??

I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road.  I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.

Who you shipping out to make the space?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: L K on September 23, 2020, 04:00:10 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??

I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road.  I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.

It's a way to look at it.  I'm not sure I necessarily want to put all our eggs into the basket of win before Matthews leaves in 4 years basket though.  Realistically we have the chance of having Marner/Matthews/Nylander here as elite players for another 10 years.  Signing Pietrangelo to a big deal is great.  It also means we lose Rielly in a year.  So are the Leafs that much better of a Cup contender with a garbage bottom 6 fowards because we can't pay anyone by simply replacing Rielly with Pietrangelo?  I'm not sure that's really the case.  It would make us much better on the defense this year and then we could be a world of trouble the year after that.

Ovechkin didn't win his Cup until his 13th season with the Capitals.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 23, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
Quote from: L K on September 23, 2020, 04:00:10 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??

I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road.  I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.

It's a way to look at it.  I'm not sure I necessarily want to put all our eggs into the basket of win before Matthews leaves in 4 years basket though.  Realistically we have the chance of having Marner/Matthews/Nylander here as elite players for another 10 years.  Signing Pietrangelo to a big deal is great.  It also means we lose Rielly in a year.  So are the Leafs that much better of a Cup contender with a garbage bottom 6 fowards because we can't pay anyone by simply replacing Rielly with Pietrangelo?  I'm not sure that's really the case.  It would make us much better on the defense this year and then we could be a world of trouble the year after that.

Ovechkin didn't win his Cup until his 13th season with the Capitals.
We would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role.  Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 23, 2020, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 09:30:17 AM
As much as I'd like to have AP, I'm def starting to lean towards the not signing him side. 7 mill per max....let someone else over pay him.

Where else are they gonna find a right hand shot like him?  The Leafs window is only as open as the Matthews contract which is 4 years left.  Might as well take a big swing now, go big or go home.
That's why I was, well still, on the fence in the first place. I think we can survive losing Kerfoot and Johnsson to sign him but it's that 7 year term. Don't worry, later today I'll be leaning towards get him lol. I guess the bottom line will be the dollars involved. If we can get him under 8??

I'm like a crazed GM on his last ropes not worrying about 7 years down the road.  I've waited long enough for a Cup to my team let's do this, damn the torpedos.

Who you shipping out to make the space?
Kerfoot and Johnsson will do it.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 23, 2020, 06:22:45 PM
Yeah, I don't want the Leafs to end up like Edmonton here.  I'm not sure you can do it with Kerfoot and Johnsson.

When you have a glaring weakness, it needs to be addressed.  Pietrangelo costs nothing but money/cap.

Trade from a position of strength with Nylander or Marner if you have to.  I'd really like to see Rielly have a couple of years with a proper top shelf RHD to play with, maybe Rielly gets even better learning from the guy.  I've said it before, but Pietrangelo is a known quantity.  He's really good at a position the Leafs currently have Holl as the best option...and I don't like that guy. 
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 23, 2020, 06:56:36 PM
You just said you don?t want to be Edmonton and then recommended trading out one of the team?s top wingers for a defenseman.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bullfrog on September 23, 2020, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: herman on September 23, 2020, 06:56:36 PM
You just said you don?t want to be Edmonton and then recommended trading out one of the team?s top wingers for a defenseman.

Pietrangelo's a bit better than Larsson, no?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on September 23, 2020, 07:16:56 PM
Would it be better to go with Pietrangelo, or to go with DeMelo and Brodie?

I'm just wondering if quantity or top end quality is a better move.  Defence by committee kind of like what the Leafs did in the early 90's.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Rob on September 23, 2020, 07:27:28 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
We would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role.  Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.

You think the Leafs are a Pietrangelo away from winning a cup? 
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 23, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rob on September 23, 2020, 07:27:28 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
We would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role.  Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.

You think the Leafs are a Pietrangelo away from winning a cup?
Why not? The friggin Islanders nearly made it to the final and the Stars did. Get on a roll at the right time and you never know. A guy like Pietrangelo would soak up alot of minutes
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:38:25 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 23, 2020, 06:22:45 PM
I'm not sure you can do it with Kerfoot and Johnsson.


You can do it.. Challenging but you can make it work if he comes in at 8 mill.
This is a little different then the one I did yesterday. You could potentially have Dermott if you could sign  Mikheyev and Rodrigues to 1.25 mill deals. Of course the 4th line could even go cheaper if need be.

Hyman(2.25) Matthews(11,634,000) Marner(10,893,000)
Robertson(821,667) JT(11) Nylander(6,962,366)
Mikheyev(1.5) Engvall(1.25) Barabanov(925)
Rodrigues(1.5) Spezza(1) Simmonds(1)


Rielly(5) Pietrangelo(8mill)
Muzz(5.625) Holl(2)
Sandin(894,167) Lehtonen(925)


Freddie(5) Campbell(1.65)

plus 1.2 for Kessel for a total of 81,030,200 and would leave the Leafs with $469,800 in cap space.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: Rob on September 23, 2020, 07:27:28 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 23, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
We would have Rielly/Pietrangelo for 2 years, then hope Sandin can be ready in 2022/2023 to take over a bigger role.  Bottom 6 they have to entice those bargain bin deals for vets like Spezza took this year. I'm old, I don't want to wait another decade.

You think the Leafs are a Pietrangelo away from winning a cup?
Why not? The friggin Islanders nearly made it to the final and the Stars did. Get on a roll at the right time and you never know. A guy like Pietrangelo would soak up alot of minutes
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 24, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.

Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 24, 2020, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 24, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.

Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.

I guess it depends how good Robertson, Barabanov will be as both will be on the cheap.  Then if you bring back Spezza and some other vet pieces on the cheap you have your bottom 6.  Not ideal, but the main offensive thrust of the team will come from the top 2 lines anyway, if your bottom 6 can not get outscored you're ahead of the game.

If they dump Johnsson and Kerfoot, provided they can sign Rodridgues and Mikheyev to cheap deals the lines look something like:

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Robertson-Rodrigues-Barabanov
unknown-Spezza-unknown
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: L K on September 24, 2020, 10:52:41 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 24, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.

Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.

It is interesting as we just came off a playoff series where the Leafs outplayed Columbus and lost because they had no scoring depth. 

They got 17 points out of Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander.   They got 8 points from the other 8 forwards.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 24, 2020, 10:57:05 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 24, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.

Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.
That's the kicker isn't it? I don't consider Kerfoot and Johnsson significant though. From a points view, I don't think losing them hurts too bad offensively. That's what Dubas and Co have to figure out if AP gets to market. Even if the Leafs go after say TJ Brodie, or any other D man via ufa or trade, you may still have to move one of those guys. You also have to be very careful not to overpay because next year you have Hyman/Freddie up and the year after that it's Rielly. You can't overpay for a "good" player and expect those guys to take a haircut. If it's a guy like AP, it's a different scenario according to Mike Johnson. I actually think Dubas would talk to the core guys about AP like he did when JT was available. If you're moving a big 4 piece like Nylander you have to get a significant D man in return. Nylander+ for Parayko kind of thing.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 24, 2020, 10:59:00 AM
Quote from: L K on September 24, 2020, 10:52:41 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 24, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.

Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.

It is interesting as we just came off a playoff series where the Leafs outplayed Columbus and lost because they had no scoring depth. 

They got 17 points out of Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander.   They got 8 points from the other 8 forwards.

It was more to the point the Leafs lost because they shot 2% for the entire series which historically isn't going to happen all the time.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 24, 2020, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: Zee on September 24, 2020, 10:59:00 AM
Quote from: L K on September 24, 2020, 10:52:41 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 24, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 23, 2020, 07:41:48 PM
Agree..AP could make a huge difference. Get the forwards to buy in a little more like they did during the playoffs and who knows? If the Leafs got past Boston last year, they may have been the team going to the finals. We don't know.

Adding him to the roster as-is could make a huge difference. Having to move out significant pieces or torpedo the team's depth upfront to bring him in? I'm not sure that actually moves the needle in any significant way.

It is interesting as we just came off a playoff series where the Leafs outplayed Columbus and lost because they had no scoring depth. 

They got 17 points out of Tavares/Matthews/Marner/Nylander.   They got 8 points from the other 8 forwards.

It was more to the point the Leafs lost because they shot 2% for the entire series which historically isn't going to happen all the time.
Agree with Zee here. Leafs had the chances, but couldn't bury them.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 24, 2020, 12:58:38 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

When do we get to discuss Thornton signing with the Leafs for $750K?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on September 24, 2020, 01:03:31 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 24, 2020, 12:58:38 PM

When do we get to discuss Thornton signing with the Leafs for $750K?

Immediately!

Actually it?s funny I remember the speculation around here that back when he was in Boston he was going to end up being a maple leaf. Along with tony amonte and a whole bunch of other players I can?t remember.

I think the only year things went nuts for the leafs is when they got Peca, Lindros and Alison all in the same season. Of course we got the bizarro versions of those players but fun times nonetheless.

And that ends today?s edition of random thoughts that went nowhere.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 24, 2020, 01:32:26 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Did you not read my "coming home, coming home" lyrics Mr. Grumpy?  He's coming home!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 24, 2020, 01:35:28 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 24, 2020, 12:58:38 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

When do we get to discuss Thornton signing with the Leafs for $750K?
We can only handle one UFA at a time. Joe is next!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 24, 2020, 01:41:52 PM
(https://melissaphillips.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/high-five.jpg)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.     
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 25, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.

I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 25, 2020, 09:28:25 AM

It's also worth remembering, although for the life of me I don't know why people want to bring this up again in the Pietrangelo thread, that McDavid originally negotiated a larger contract and then chose himself to come down from that a little. He wasn't interested in maxing out his leverage, Matthews was.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 25, 2020, 09:28:25 AM

It's also worth remembering, although for the life of me I don't know why people want to bring this up again in the Pietrangelo thread, that McDavid originally negotiated a larger contract and then chose himself to come down from that a little. He wasn't interested in maxing out his leverage, Matthews was.

If I recall, Matthews only accepted the ACV of $11.6m if the term was shorter.  I remember the quote was something like "find something that works"...so they landed on a 5 year deal.  It sounded like he would have sought more ACV if the term was longer.

It was Marner that was maxing out his leverage and holding out.  Matthews didn't do that.

I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.

I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if  you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 09:52:41 AM

I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
Why? Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Benn to name a few, all signed 5 year deals on their 2nd contracts. Worried that he'll want more money next contract, or that he'll leave via UFA?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.

I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if  you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.

The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?

As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 25, 2020, 12:26:21 PM

I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.


Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing  William to pay Alex and Jamie.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 12:26:31 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?

It might.  But please define "long term" in the current NHL.

Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.

This is all over the place.  We don't know if teams undervalue Nylander.  Cap space is fixed, so if you want, or in the Leafs' case, NEED to spend some money on the defense, then indeed you'll have to give up some of your offense cap dollars.  As of today, Justin Holl is their only returning RHD under contract.

They may very well have to go in a more Brodie direction, but for an extra $3m in cap space, you can have a guy that just finished fourth in Norris voting.  And in terms of his age, Hedman, and Josi, and Carlsson are all around that same age...you got a problem with their deals as well?

They've been screwing around with the defense for years now, and not seemingly able to the right price/performance out of the right side.  If Pietrangelo lands in their laps for zero talent cost, you find a way to make him fit.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 25, 2020, 12:51:48 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 09:52:41 AM
If I recall, Matthews only accepted the ACV of $11.6m if the term was shorter.  I remember the quote was something like "find something that works"...so they landed on a 5 year deal.  It sounded like he would have sought more ACV if the term was longer.

It was Marner that was maxing out his leverage and holding out.  Matthews didn't do that.

Matthews got the deal he wanted, by most accounts, because the Leafs were effectively willing to give him what he was looking for. Holding out, sort of by default, is an indication that a player has less leverage because a team is willing to fight it out with them in a way they typically don't with superstars.

So the contrast with McDavid, who again basically got whatever he wanted from the Oilers and negotiated his own salary down, is the issue here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 25, 2020, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 25, 2020, 12:26:21 PM
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing  William to pay Alex and Jamie.

It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 25, 2020, 01:04:04 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 25, 2020, 12:59:37 PM
It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.

Yeah, this is what I meant about people being specific about their supposed Nylander trades. RedLeaf did that, and fair play to him for that, but it underscores that so many of these "Trade Nylander, sign AP and we all have a merry Christmas" scenarios are based on pretty hard to fathom trades taking place.

Teams with very high draft picks want to keep them and hopefully draft a franchise-cornerstone sort of piece. Teams without them(or similarly high value prospects) can't offer good value.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 25, 2020, 01:28:16 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 12:26:31 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?

It might.  But please define "long term" in the current NHL.

Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.

This is all over the place.  We don't know if teams undervalue Nylander.  Cap space is fixed, so if you want, or in the Leafs' case, NEED to spend some money on the defense, then indeed you'll have to give up some of your offense cap dollars.  As of today, Justin Holl is their only returning RHD under contract.

They may very well have to go in a more Brodie direction, but for an extra $3m in cap space, you can have a guy that just finished fourth in Norris voting.  And in terms of his age, Hedman, and Josi, and Carlsson are all around that same age...you got a problem with their deals as well?

They've been screwing around with the defense for years now, and not seemingly able to the right price/performance out of the right side.  If Pietrangelo lands in their laps for zero talent cost, you find a way to make him fit.

I don't get how valuing someone internally more than what the market will bear is "all over the place." We've heard it time and time again that the offers for Nylander are underwhelming, and if that's the case then selling low on him makes no sense, even for AP. AP is going to be 31. I don't really want to trade a 24y.o. 30 goal scorer for a 31 y.o. dman that we might not regret signing on day 1 but may regret signing in 3-4 years.

Maybe I'm getting flashbacks of the Dion Phaneuf deal but long term is in 5 years or more. I think someone just brought up Ovechkin needing 13 kicks at the can before winning. Basically I don't want them to blow it so thoroughly that the team can't compete because they've destroyed all their draft capital & prospect pool before they actually have the ability to make it meaningfully in the playoffs. I don't think adding AP pushes the team in any meaningful direction. If AP goes down your depth is gone and we're already thin at C, where Nylander can play in a pinch if we get injuries. It just doesn't make sense to me vs. defense by committee in a Brodie/Gudas tandem. If everyone is capable you're less beholden to one guy and you still have some depth when injuries hit, which they inevitably will.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 05:07:05 PM
Quote from: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.

Yeah but Mcdavid signed for 3 more years than Matthews.  To me that is worth at least 1M more a year.  so the difference probably less that 500K.  On an 8 year term Dubas would have paid him more than 12.6M ill bet
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 05:14:59 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 09:52:41 AM

I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
Why? Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Benn to name a few, all signed 5 year deals on their 2nd contracts. Worried that he'll want more money next contract, or that he'll leave via UFA?

My gut feeling is that he will walk after the 5th year
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 06:45:53 PM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 05:14:59 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 10:16:40 AM
Quote from: Frank E on September 25, 2020, 09:52:41 AM

I know this is the Pietrangelo thread and all, but I think signing Matthews to only a 5 year term might turn out to be a pretty big mistake.
Why? Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Perry, Benn to name a few, all signed 5 year deals on their 2nd contracts. Worried that he'll want more money next contract, or that he'll leave via UFA?

My gut feeling is that he will walk after the 5th year
And how many superstar UFA's left their original teams after 8 years?
If he walks after playing 8 years here, I would have no issue with that.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 06:58:33 PM
Apparently AP asked Cola what it's like playing in Toronto and his experience was like here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 25, 2020, 11:09:54 PM
https://twitter.com/dirtbag_daddi/status/1309689698781212673
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 25, 2020, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.

I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if  you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.

The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?

As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.

6 guys did it, not 4, making under $7m: David Pastrnak, Mika Zibanejad, Nathan MacKinnon, Patrice Bergeron, William Nylander, Dominik Kubalik.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 10:46:34 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 25, 2020, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 25, 2020, 12:26:21 PM
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing  William to pay Alex and Jamie.

It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.

What exactly is not going to happen? Jamie Drysdale or a similar promising d-man? It was a pretty vague statement . If you?re saying the Leafs can?t get a 1st round pick that they could select a defenceman with for William Nylander than I?m going to call you out here. Lol . What?s he worth in your mind, a second rounder?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 26, 2020, 11:08:01 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 10:46:34 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 25, 2020, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 25, 2020, 12:26:21 PM
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing  William to pay Alex and Jamie.

It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.

What exactly is not going to happen? Jamie Drysdale or a similar promising d-man? It was a pretty vague statement . If you?re saying the Leafs can?t get a 1st round pick that they could select a defenceman with for William Nylander than I?m going to call you out here. Lol . What?s he worth in your mind, a second rounder?

I think busta was referring to some conversations a few pages ago where we surmised that the top-5 pickers in this year's draft are all in rebuild mode, and wouldn't need or want a Nylander/$7m forward.  They all need to draft a core player and get the ELC savings, and suck for a couple of more years.

Picks 6+ may be on the table, given some of those teams could use a Nylander to so some degree or another...but even then, a lot of them need to suck a little while longer as well.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 11:24:55 AM
Quote from: Frank E on September 26, 2020, 11:08:01 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 10:46:34 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 25, 2020, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 25, 2020, 12:26:21 PM
Trading Nylander to make room for PA...PLUS (and this is a big 'if') you can also get someone like Jamie Drysdale (or a similar promising young RH D-man) in a return, you not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're robbing  William to pay Alex and Jamie.

It's more than just a big if. It's absolutely not going to happen. It's so beyond the realm of realistic possibilities that, quite frankly, it shouldn't even be brought or considered.

What exactly is not going to happen? Jamie Drysdale or a similar promising d-man? It was a pretty vague statement . If you?re saying the Leafs can?t get a 1st round pick that they could select a defenceman with for William Nylander than I?m going to call you out here. Lol . What?s he worth in your mind, a second rounder?

I think busta was referring to some conversations a few pages ago where we surmised that the top-5 pickers in this year's draft are all in rebuild mode, and wouldn't need or want a Nylander/$7m forward.  They all need to draft a core player and get the ELC savings, and suck for a couple of more years.

Picks 6+ may be on the table, given some of those teams could use a Nylander to so some degree or another...but even then, a lot of them need to suck a little while longer as well.

Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man. Obviously targeting the highest rated defenceman is preferable but it doesn?t mean I?d stop there if there wasn?t a trade available. From what I?ve read the consensus is there isn?t a ton difference from Drysdale and the next 3-4 d-man in the draft. The idea hasn?t changed. You should be able to flip Nylander for a good promising 1st round prospect. Even if that pick is for next years draft.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 26, 2020, 02:42:36 PM
Outside the top 2-3, GMs are praying their first rounder turns out even remotely as good as Nylander in 3-4 years. Neither side of the equation really wants to entertain this trade proposal.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 26, 2020, 06:19:32 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 11:24:55 AM
[Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man. Obviously targeting the highest rated defenceman is preferable but it doesn?t mean I?d stop there if there wasn?t a trade available. From what I?ve read the consensus is there isn?t a ton difference from Drysdale and the next 3-4 d-man in the draft. The idea hasn?t changed. You should be able to flip Nylander for a good promising 1st round prospect. Even if that pick is for next years draft.

That?s ?consensus? doesn?t match anything I?ve read. What I?ve seen has Drysdale as the clear best defender (and the teams that will be in position to draft him aren?t in a position to trade that pick for immediate help), followed not super closely by Sanderson, and the rest are in a tier clearly below - to the point where there doesn?t even seem to be a clear consensus on who else will go in the 1st round.

As for this promising young player or prospect - how about identifying some? It?s great to speak in hypotheticals, but put your money where your mouth is. Who is a potential trade target on a team that is position to move a promising young D for a forward?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 26, 2020, 06:33:52 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 11:24:55 AM
Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man.

Well, what you said is "similar promising d-man" and I think, in this context, where Drysdale is a consensus top 5 pick, simply getting any sort of 1st round pick for Nylander and using it on the best available defenseman is probably not being seen as being all that similar to landing one of the top prospects in the draft.

Because something the Leafs actually aren't hurting for is sort of mid-range 1st round defensive prospects. So I don't think people would see another one as a particularly valuable get for Nylander.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 26, 2020, 10:45:12 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 25, 2020, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 25, 2020, 09:56:42 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 25, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: Hobbes on September 25, 2020, 07:55:06 AM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 25, 2020, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 24, 2020, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on September 24, 2020, 12:44:30 PM
I don?t know why we put ourselves through this year after year. I know it?s a message board and speculation is what we strive on, but let?s be honest with ourselves, other than Tavares, the top free agent just doesn?t come to Toronto.

Maybe I?m just getting old and grumpy, but using Toronto and negotiating leverage has just gotten tiresome for me.

Thing is, Toronto has probably done as well as anyone in my time as a hockey fan at attracting free agents. The thing of it is though is that people way oversell the "he's a local guy, so he's going to sign here" thing.

I agree it's annoying when every media report has the Leafs involved and I think the "he's a local guy so he's dying to play here" thing is overblown but guys like Cujo, Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Clarkson(who sucked but was a highly sought after free agent), heck, even Gretzky did agree to come here.

Too bad Dubas cant use any leverage on cap hits.  He pays top AAV, for less term, and gives massive signing bonuses so they get all their money up front.  I love Matthews...but in no universe should he be paid 865k less than Connor Mcdavid...for LESS term.  Its baffling really.   
Up until this season comparing dollars for dollars of contracts is a recipe for misunderstanding. You need to be comparing their relative "% of cap in the year they sign" to get any sort of meaningful indication. Nobody expected a multi-year flat cap situation when any of those contracts were signed, either. It's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the upcoming free-agency.

McDavid: 16.7% of cap when he signed
Matthews: 14.63%

If McDavid had signed the same year as Matthews his would have been about $13.28 AAV (1.5M more than Matthews). I don't think that's nearly as out of line as you're suggesting.

I think that's pretty fair actually. I also think the Nylander contract is looking more and more like a bargain every day. Where we have a problem I think is with Mitch and the fact that we signed Tavares. Once you signed Tavares I think that forced out one of Marner or Nylander and I think we'll see that happening - you can't win without depth. Ultimately we need to keep rolling our roster and start trading players and get value back as we've dug a pretty sizable hole with Marleau/Zaitsev and not recouping assets on expiring contracts.
I still don't see Dubas moving Willy or Mitch this year. Maybe down the road but not yet. I heard on Overdrive an interesting take on the AP front yesterday with having to move players etc. They said if  you have to move say Nylander, or similar money, in order to get AP do you do it? All said of course you do because AP puts you closer to winning the cup then Nylander does. Also said, much like Zee has, you can't worry about 7 years down the road. The window is 4 more years with Matthews. Have to take advantage now. AP will have a huge impact on the D core. Holl who really is a low 4/5 guy will be on the 2nd pairing which should help his game a lot. Either way though the Leafs need a #1 RD whether it's AP or someone else and you're going to be paying 5+ mill to get one so like I said earlier, probably one of Kerfoot or Johnsson will have to go anyway.

The window isn't closed just because you have to give Matthews another contract, you do have to think short term and long term. If overreaching now means you get a few kicks at the can now but completely screws up your long term ability to compete then is that really progress?

As a counterpoint listening to Leafs Lunch they brought in a guy from Sportlogiq that said the only 4 players making $7m or less who scored 30 goals last year and he is on the longest contract length of his deal, so from a value perspective does subtracting Nylander, which teams are undervaluing in a trade even though he's got a pretty good contract, make sense? I mean, at least maximize assets coming back and trading Nylander probably doesn't do that. I don't know how willing I am to rob from Peter to pay Paul, so I think I'm still on the mindset that we need depth above all else if we're jumping into free agency and I don't think trading Nylander to get AP (who is going to be 31 once next season starts by the way) is the best way to do that.

6 guys did it, not 4, making under $7m: David Pastrnak, Mika Zibanejad, Nathan MacKinnon, Patrice Bergeron, William Nylander, Dominik Kubalik.
Fair enough but the main point still stands.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 10:02:44 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 26, 2020, 06:19:32 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 26, 2020, 11:24:55 AM
[Right but I came off that mark and did say ...or a promising young d man. Obviously targeting the highest rated defenceman is preferable but it doesn?t mean I?d stop there if there wasn?t a trade available. From what I?ve read the consensus is there isn?t a ton difference from Drysdale and the next 3-4 d-man in the draft. The idea hasn?t changed. You should be able to flip Nylander for a good promising 1st round prospect. Even if that pick is for next years draft.

That?s ?consensus? doesn?t match anything I?ve read. What I?ve seen has Drysdale as the clear best defender (and the teams that will be in position to draft him aren?t in a position to trade that pick for immediate help), followed not super closely by Sanderson, and the rest are in a tier clearly below - to the point where there doesn?t even seem to be a clear consensus on who else will go in the 1st round.

As for this promising young player or prospect - how about identifying some? It?s great to speak in hypotheticals, but put your money where your mouth is. Who is a potential trade target on a team that is position to move a promising young D for a forward?

Lol. Well you know as well as I do, identifying desirable targets and coming to terms with those teams on a trade isn?t something you can easily speculate about . I?m sure Dubas has lots of balls in the hopper that could pan out. And I?m sure first round picks are certainly an option for him.

Why don?t you put your money where your mouth is and just come out and tell us you don?t want to trade Nylander for anything. That?s certainly the vibe I?m getting from you. Or if you disagree , tell us what it would take in a trade for you to come around with the idea?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 10:58:30 AM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

Fair enough Herman. But I have come off the mark suggesting we could get a top 5 pick in this years draft for Nylander . I?m not sure why it?s so hard for people to wrap their heads around The idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft . I really don?t see that as being unrealistic . In fact I think that?s a very realistic expectation for what we should strive for when considering trading Nylander and clearing up space at the same time.

I think what is happening here is the fact there are so many people opposed to dealing Nylander for any return, that they can?t entertain any suggestions .
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 27, 2020, 11:30:36 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 10:58:30 AMThe idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft .

I confess, that's something that's difficult for me to understand given that there is no way to secure a "higher-end" first rounder for next year's draft.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Rob on September 27, 2020, 11:32:42 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 27, 2020, 11:30:36 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 10:58:30 AMThe idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft .

I confess, that's something that's difficult for me to understand given that there is no way to secure a "high-end" first rounder for next year's draft.

Be Boston.
Trade Kessel to Toronto.
Profit.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Nik on September 27, 2020, 11:30:36 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 10:58:30 AMThe idea of securing a higher end 1st rounder, even if it?s in next years draft .

I confess, that's something that's difficult for me to understand given that there is no way to secure a "high-end" first rounder for next year's draft.

So ... no way to trade Nylander for a high end first round This year or next. Ok. Discussion over Nik. Thanks
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 27, 2020, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: RedLeaf on September 27, 2020, 11:40:26 AM
So ... no way to trade Nylander for a high end first round This year or next. Ok. Discussion over Nik. Thanks

You may be misunderstanding me but what I said is that there's no way to trade Nylander now for a pick in next year's draft where you're certain it'll be in a certain spot. You could trade Nylander for a pick in next years but where it would be in next year's draft wouldn't be certain until the season plays out(and we don't even know when that next season will be).

Now, maybe you meant trading Nylander for a pick in next year's draft after next year so we'd know where it is but in that case the purpose of trading him wouldn't be "to sign Pietrangelo" so I don't think a lot of us see what you'd be clearing up cap dollars for, in which case you're talking about trading what is maybe the best value contract the Leafs have for a not very good return(and trading good value contracts typically isn't where you start to clear cap space).

And I think that's sort of fueling the issue here. You could, I assume, trade Nylander for a pick in the top half of this year's draft but what I think most of us are saying isn't that such a deal would be unworkable but that a trade like that would be a bad trade we don't want to make. That's why people are asking for specifics on trade proposals, to see if they sound like good ones.

Because contrary to what you said earlier, it's not a situation where I wouldn't trade Nylander for any return. If Vancouver calls up tomorrow and offers Hughes and Horvat for him, I'll pack his bags myself. That doesn't strike me as very likely though and I think it's pretty reasonable for people to generally not be a fan of any trade proposal for a player until it's one they think would ultimately improve the team.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 12:01:37 PM
I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.

They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 12:06:25 PM
Well said Nik. You need to hit a home run if you're trading one of your biggest assets.
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 12:01:37 PM
I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.

They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.

I don't see Ottawa doing that because they have Melnyk lol.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on September 27, 2020, 12:08:44 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 12:01:37 PM
I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.

They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.

They strike me as the team that's probably least likely to want to give up the possibility of a good young player on an ELC deal.

But even if I'm wrong about that getting one of Perfetti/Raymond/Rossi or Sanderson doesn't really excite me.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 12:08:49 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 12:06:25 PM
Well said Nik. You need to hit a home run if you're trading one of your biggest assets.
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 12:01:37 PM
I could see Ottawa trading the 5th pick for Nylander straight up.

They have the 3rd pick overall and another 1st round. They'll have lots of cap space. Diversifying with a known quantity like a young Nylander on a good contract would make some sense.

I don't see Ottawa doing that because they have Melnyk lol.

Well, yes, but that could be why they do it. Never know where his head is at.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 01:03:56 PM
Too much money for Eugene here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 01:09:34 PM
At best by the time the sens are close to being in a position to start making playoff runs Nylander will be a year or two away from being an UFA. Even aside from the money/Melynk angle it's a trade that makes absolutely zero sense for the team considering where they are in their rebuild.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 27, 2020, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.

I would be okay with trading Nylander if Robertson ends up turning into a 40G scorer and we still need RD on Nylander?s second last year of the deal and Colorado says, hey want Makar for Willy?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 04:17:16 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 01:03:56 PM
Too much money for Eugene here.

Willy is owed $20.5m over the next 4 years while having a cap hit of $6.9m. If they flip Willy with a year left on his deal, could be some shrewd business. They're gonna have to pay someone to make it to the cap floor and be cap compliant.

If I'm Dubas I'd never do it but I don't think it'd be that outlandish from Ottawa's perspective.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 27, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?

Willy is playing 3C.  ;D
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 06:43:55 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?
Willy might be the answer for 3C. Maybe they get Koivu on a cheap contract. Maybe Thornton or another UFA. Maybe Engvall can step up. I'd lean towards Willy and then you'd have to get a winger for JT/Matthews. Maybe is Barabanov. Don't know what Dubas is thinking or who he can get. We'll figure it out but one thing for certain, if we're going after AP and need the space, I'm trading Kerfoot and Johnsson long before I get rid of Nylander. They also had 17 goals and 49 points between them. AP had 52 points so not really hard to replace. Kerfoot more then Johnsson but it can be done.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 06:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 27, 2020, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:30:58 AM
Redleaf, the pushback on your idea is not so much about Nylander being traded as it is about the idea being unrealistic. We have already outlined that teams holding the top picks are not looking for performance spending today, and the Leafs are looking for NHL core level contribution if they are moving out a key and affordable piece like Nylander.

Your idea is more suited to someone like Johnsson being traded for a low first (hi New Jersey!) where the team wants a young NHL player and have multiple firsts to spend.

This. It?s not about not wanting to trade Nylander. It?s about not wanting to move him purely for futures (essentially, as a cap dump) in order to sign a 30 y/o UFA to a long-term, expensive contract.
I'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.
Where's your centre depth? Are we trying Adam Brooks at 3C?

Willy is playing 3C.  ;D

Could be. Will between Barabanov, Mikheyev. We'll see.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 07:12:27 PM
I think if the Leafs do manage to get Pietrangelo there's a pretty good chance Thornton will be here too. Like I expect Dubas to pursue him regardless but there's a better chance of Thornton being interested in a 1-year Cup run with Pietrangelo here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 08:36:35 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 07:12:27 PM
I think if the Leafs do manage to get Pietrangelo there's a pretty good chance Thornton will be here too. Like I expect Dubas to pursue him regardless but there's a better chance of Thornton being interested in a 1-year Cup run with Pietrangelo here.
I think so to, or someone similar. I think we might even see Simmonds come also for the 4th line. AP def could influence someone's choice. We'll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 27, 2020, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
Willy is playing 3C.  ;D

I think we'd be seeing the puck get fished out our own net a lot, and miss out on offense on the first two lines where he should be.

If there's one thing that I can't truly get behind in Dubas' plan, it's the lack of grinding role players that should be part of a 3rd and 4th line mix.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 27, 2020, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
Willy is playing 3C.  ;D

I think we'd be seeing the puck get fished out our own net a lot, and miss out on offense on the first two lines where he should be.

If there's one thing that I can't truly get behind in Dubas' plan, it's the lack of grinding role players that should be part of a 3rd and 4th line mix.

I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on September 27, 2020, 09:08:47 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 27, 2020, 08:49:57 PM
Quote from: Dappleganger on September 27, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
Willy is playing 3C.  ;D

I think we'd be seeing the puck get fished out our own net a lot, and miss out on offense on the first two lines where he should be.

If there's one thing that I can't truly get behind in Dubas' plan, it's the lack of grinding role players that should be part of a 3rd and 4th line mix.

I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.

That Yanni Gourde guy would be so amazing in Toronto. He's a close to a darcy tucker as I've seen, apart from maybe having better financial advice.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.

Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.

I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:42:14 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 27, 2020, 09:08:47 PM
That Yanni Gourde guy would be so amazing in Toronto. He's a close to a darcy tucker as I've seen, apart from maybe having better financial advice.

Justin Bourne said Dubas was a big fan of Gourde's before he got into the NHL.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 27, 2020, 10:09:07 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:42:14 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on September 27, 2020, 09:08:47 PM
That Yanni Gourde guy would be so amazing in Toronto. He's a close to a darcy tucker as I've seen, apart from maybe having better financial advice.

Justin Bourne said Dubas was a big fan of Gourde's before he got into the NHL.

And Coleman, before they started to make noise. But he wasn?t the GM at the time.

Reference: Marlies beat
https://twitter.com/jeffveillette/status/1309160888620978176
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: princedpw on September 27, 2020, 11:26:00 PM
I heard someone mention Damon Severson for Travis Dermott and some picks.  I don?t know Severson at all but that seems like a good sort of path to me. Ok, not as good as AP, but only costs ~4 million, can plausibly be called a top-line dman, and it allows you to keep your forward group more-or-less intact.  A more balanced approach that is less risky or susceptible to injury.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 11:49:44 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.

Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.

I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.
It's the most overblown thing attached to Dubas. He didn't win the Calder with all small skilled  players. He had a mixture of everything. I'm interested to see what he does this off/next season
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on September 28, 2020, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.

Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.

I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.

Oh I'm not criticizing the Leafs, just an observation on Tampa. I do think Dubas recognizes the costs to acquire players such as that we might need more of that on the team if the cost fits.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on September 28, 2020, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 28, 2020, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.

Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.

I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.

Oh I'm not criticizing the Leafs, just an observation on Tampa. I do think Dubas recognizes the costs to acquire players such as that we might need more of that on the team if the cost fits.

It should be noted that Tampa didn't burn their core depth to add these finishing pieces, and if anything, they really stuck to their guns even when they missed the playoffs due to injury (the Leafs got in with rookie Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Hyman instead) or got trounced by Columbus.

They did crush the top of their prospect pipeline to do it (and the McDonagh trade), but got some good production from UFAs who wanted to play on a strong team for a little less.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 28, 2020, 09:49:42 AM
Quote from: herman on September 28, 2020, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Bender on September 28, 2020, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 27, 2020, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bender on September 27, 2020, 09:04:27 PM
I mean, maybe Tampa really was onto something with getting Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman etc. You do need a bit of sandpaper.

Tampa also had to give up two 1st rounders and arguably their top prospect to get those guys though. So who knows if Dubas was in on either of them and get just outbid. The Leafs really weren't in a position to compete with those offers, especially with no 2020 1st round pick at that point.

I also don't think he's blind to the idea that having grit/sandpaper is beneficial. He's made trades in two straight years that brought in guys that fit that definition in Muzzin and Clifford.

Oh I'm not criticizing the Leafs, just an observation on Tampa. I do think Dubas recognizes the costs to acquire players such as that we might need more of that on the team if the cost fits.

It should be noted that Tampa didn't burn their core depth to add these finishing pieces, and if anything, they really stuck to their guns even when they missed the playoffs due to injury (the Leafs got in with rookie Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Hyman instead) or got trounced by Columbus.

They did crush the top of their prospect pipeline to do it (and the McDonagh trade), but got some good production from UFAs who wanted to play on a strong team for a little less.
Which is why the Leafs need to stick it out with the core here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 28, 2020, 12:12:14 PM
https://twitter.com/LeafsNews/status/1310575448376709120

Pretty good article from MLHS here. It primarily makes the argument that Pietrangelo is actually more of an offensive defenceman than a defensive one and wonders if that's really what the Leafs should be spending massive dollars on.

The biggest thing I learned from it was that during St. Louis' Cup run it was actually Parayko playing the toughest shutdown minutes/assignments, not Pietrangelo.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 28, 2020, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PMI'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.

That?s also not super for the team?s depth up front, but, I also question whether the right move is throwing all the cap space at Pietrangelo or if the Leafs would be better off using it on Brodie and DeMelo (for instance). They wouldn?t add the high end piece, but it would add two very good pieces to the blue line, increasing the defensive depth. Pietrangelo would make the team top heavy on the backend as well as up front.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: wnc096 on September 28, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 28, 2020, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PMI'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.

That?s also not super for the team?s depth up front, but, I also question whether the right move is throwing all the cap space at Pietrangelo or if the Leafs would be better off using it on Brodie and DeMelo (for instance). They wouldn?t add the high end piece, but it would add two very good pieces to the blue line, increasing the defensive depth. Pietrangelo would make the team top heavy on the backend as well as up front.

Brodie has stated in the past he does not want to play in Toronto.  https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/1220750929051496448?s=20
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on September 28, 2020, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: wnc096 on September 28, 2020, 12:42:08 PM
Brodie has stated in the past he does not want to play in Toronto.  https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/1220750929051496448?s=20

People change. We don?t know the reasons why Brodie blocked the trade. They might not apply to a free agent contract - different situation, different options, etc.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 28, 2020, 01:01:04 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 28, 2020, 12:49:09 PM
People change. We don?t know the reasons why Brodie blocked the trade. They might not apply to a free agent contract - different situation, different options, etc.

Yeah I think it's definitely worth pointing out that he blocked a trade in the past and maybe that means he isn't interested in playing in Toronto but it's not a sure thing. When Kadri used his NTC to block that trade he made it clear it was more about not wanting to leave Toronto than it was about not wanting to play in Calgary. That could have been the same thing with Brodie.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 28, 2020, 01:05:46 PM
Sure, but what players say to not create any controversy can be irrelevant.  Fact is, Kadri didn't want to go to Calgary when Toronto wanted to move on from him.

If indeed Brodie blocked a trade to Toronto, I think that's relevant information.

It's not definitive in terms of whether or not he'd sign a deal here, but it's not irrelevant.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 28, 2020, 01:08:29 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 28, 2020, 01:05:46 PM
If indeed Brodie blocked a trade to Toronto, I think that's relevant information.

It's not definitive in terms of whether or not he'd sign a deal here, but it's not irrelevant.

I mean, yeah that's exactly what I said.

edit:  :-*
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 28, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on September 28, 2020, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on September 27, 2020, 04:32:03 PMI'd move Kerfoot and Johnsson to make the same cap room as Nylander and the team won't be hurt as much offensively. That's what I'd do if I'm getting a chance to sign AP.

That?s also not super for the team?s depth up front, but, I also question whether the right move is throwing all the cap space at Pietrangelo or if the Leafs would be better off using it on Brodie and DeMelo (for instance). They wouldn?t add the high end piece, but it would add two very good pieces to the blue line, increasing the defensive depth. Pietrangelo would make the team top heavy on the backend as well as up front.
If the Leafs sign say a Brodie it's probably going to cost them 5.5? Anything around there and it will still cost them a Johnsson or Kerfoot. To me it doesn't make sense to sign a #6 guy when you have Dermott, Lehtonen.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on September 28, 2020, 01:21:36 PM
The good news is that this will get settled in about 2 weeks from now.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on September 28, 2020, 01:31:51 PM
Quote from: Frank E on September 28, 2020, 01:21:36 PM
The good news is that this will get settled in about 2 weeks from now.
Yup. Give or take we should find out the Leafs plans. Still think Spezza is coming back as 4th line centre.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 07:06:18 PM
https://twitter.com/mikemorrealeNHL/status/1311066050365214720

Fitzgerald's been training to be a NHL GM for over 10 years but apparently no one taught him the rules about tampering.

You're supposed to leak this to someone in the media not tell them on the record and have them post it on NHL.com.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on September 29, 2020, 07:13:33 PM
Somehow Toronto will get fined for this.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on September 29, 2020, 08:42:49 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 07:06:18 PM
https://twitter.com/mikemorrealeNHL/status/1311066050365214720

Fitzgerald's been training to be a NHL GM for over 10 years but apparently no one taught him the rules about tampering.

You're supposed to leak this to someone in the media not tell them on the record and have them post it on NHL.com.
Seems like they took the article down.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 09:10:23 PM
Quote from: Zee on September 29, 2020, 08:42:49 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 07:06:18 PM
https://twitter.com/mikemorrealeNHL/status/1311066050365214720

Fitzgerald's been training to be a NHL GM for over 10 years but apparently no one taught him the rules about tampering.

You're supposed to leak this to someone in the media not tell them on the record and have them post it on NHL.com.
Seems like they took the article down.

That's amazing haha
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 09:15:56 PM
The article wasn't taken down, just the tweet. In case the article does go down here's New Jersey's GM saying out loud that he'd pursue Pietrangelo if he made it to July 1st:

Quote from: https://www.nhl.com/news/new-jersey-devils-general-manager-tom-fitzgerald-discusses-free-agency/c-319234500"If (St. Louis Blues defenseman) Alex Pietrangelo became a free agent ... he's a franchise-turning player, a champion, captain, leader with character," Devils general manager Tom Fitzgerald said. "If the agent called me, I'm taking it up (to Devils managing partners) Josh Harris and David Blitzer and the pros on why, even at this stage where we're at, where it can take us.

"Do I anticipate that happening? I can't answer that. Maybe he stays in St. Louis. However, we need to fill some holes and if I can do it through hockey trades, great. If I can do it through cap space, great. If I need to do it through a free agent or two, then we'll go that route, but we have some holes and I need to fill them."

If Dubas said anything like this he'd be fined/punished for tampering immediately. And again this was posted on NHL.COM!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 09:21:30 PM
Ron Wilson got fined for saying this about the Sedin's prior to them becoming free agents:

"You're hearing right now, and this sounds very contradictory, but there is a real possibility I would think that we would be going after the Sedins. Let's just speculate there."

Jim Benning was fined for saying this before Stamkos was set to become a free agent:

"Yes. Yes, we will. We're going to get the draft here, and then we're going to pick up the phone and we're going to call his agent."
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on September 29, 2020, 09:23:02 PM
Aaaannnnddddd that article has now been taken down lmao
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 08, 2020, 05:38:10 PM
T-minus 18 hrs
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 06:00:21 PM
I kind of like that no one has talked about him for a week or so. I think he stays in St Louis.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 08, 2020, 06:18:05 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 06:00:21 PM
I kind of like that no one has talked about him for a week or so. I think he stays in St Louis.

There's not really much to say since he can't talk to other teams. I really don't see St. Louis all of a sudden ponying up the signing bonus money at the last minute.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 08, 2020, 06:18:05 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 06:00:21 PM
I kind of like that no one has talked about him for a week or so. I think he stays in St Louis.

There's not really much to say since he can't talk to other teams. I really don't see St. Louis all of a sudden ponying up the signing bonus money at the last minute.
I think they'll take another kick at the can and will bend a little bit here. We'll see. Maybe he gets pissed off and the Leafs sign him for 7 mill lol. Time will tell I guess.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on October 08, 2020, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 08, 2020, 05:38:10 PM
T-minus 18 hrs

To watch him not sign with the leafs?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 08, 2020, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on October 08, 2020, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 08, 2020, 05:38:10 PM
T-minus 18 hrs

To watch him not sign with the leafs?

It was more about whether or not he would reach free agency, but sure Until he ?doesn?t? sign with the Leafs :)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: azzurri63 on October 08, 2020, 07:42:34 PM
You know I always wonder about contracts etc. With the Leafs being cap crunched could they offer AP a contract with say 6-7 million per year and give him some kind of job with the organization after his career is done. Pay him good money as a coach, scout whatever something in the organization and throw in some incentives, endorsement money etc. Money he sacrifices now he'll reap in a few years. Is that an option?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 07:56:23 PM
Quote from: azzurri63 on October 08, 2020, 07:42:34 PM
You know I always wonder about contracts etc. With the Leafs being cap crunched could they offer AP a contract with say 6-7 million per year and give him some kind of job with the organization after his career is done. Pay him good money as a coach, scout whatever something in the organization and throw in some incentives, endorsement money etc. Money he sacrifices now he'll reap in a few years. Is that an option?

I hear what you're saying and don't doubt that happens but from my understanding, it's against the rules. 
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on October 08, 2020, 08:00:05 PM
The leafs can?t give the players endorsement deals. The players have to seek out those deals themselves.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 08:02:41 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on October 08, 2020, 08:00:05 PM
The leafs can?t give the players endorsement deals. The players have to seek out those deals themselves.
But you can bet the Leafs have lots of friends looking for hockey players to push their products.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 08, 2020, 09:09:00 PM

The Maple Leafs emphatically cannot offer side deals for money to be earned at a later date that doesn't count against the cap. Likewise, Bell and Rogers can't start handing out million dollar endorsement contracts to Leafs players.

While I'm sure some people might think they could do so surreptitiously you might as well surmise the Leafs could, likewise, simply not report giving players briefcases full of cash on top of their hockey contracts.

Think whatever you want about the NHL league office and their stewardship of the game, they're not idiots.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 08, 2020, 09:35:33 PM

If anyone is curious, the relevant section of the CBA is Article 26.3. All of the things being suggested are expressly not allowed.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 08, 2020, 11:45:19 PM
https://twitter.com/ScottBilleck/status/1314404771348901889

Jets reporter. Sounds like Vegas is clearing space.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: KW Sluggo on October 08, 2020, 11:49:39 PM
The one advantage the Leafs have is the contract structure, namely most teams cannot afford to front end the contract the way Toronto can. This is more attractive to a player, but even more so in uncertain economic circumstances (flat cap, no ticket sales, shorter seasons etc). It helps even the field that favours lower tax jurisdictions (not as big a draw as is usually portrayed because taxation liability is shared among the various jurisdictions where games are played) and the influence of inertia which often influences a player to stay with his current team.

Otherwise, I expect the dollar amount will be the same for most offers because economic exigencies will limit the willingness of ownership to get into a bidding war.

That said, if Torey Krug is turning down $6.5M for 6 years and offers of 7 years x $7.5 are being prepared (as is alleged) then Pietrangelo will ultimately prove to be too expensive for the Leafs.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 12:11:22 AM
Quote from: KW Sluggo on October 08, 2020, 11:49:39 PM
The one advantage the Leafs have is the contract structure, namely most teams cannot afford to front end the contract the way Toronto can. This is more attractive to a player, but even more so in uncertain economic circumstances (flat cap, no ticket sales, shorter seasons etc). It helps even the field that favours lower tax jurisdictions (not as big a draw as is usually portrayed because taxation liability is shared among the various jurisdictions where games are played) and the influence of inertia which often influences a player to stay with his current team.

Otherwise, I expect the dollar amount will be the same for most offers because economic exigencies will limit the willingness of ownership to get into a bidding war.

That said, if Torey Krug is turning down $6.5M for 6 years and offers of 7 years x $7.5 are being prepared (as is alleged) then Pietrangelo will ultimately prove to be too expensive for the Leafs.
If anyone gives Krug 7.5 they're insane. Same with Brodie. If he wants 6 mill, see ya later. Leafs can't afford to overpay anyone, including Petro if they go after him.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: azzurri63 on October 09, 2020, 12:41:13 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 08, 2020, 07:56:23 PM
Quote from: azzurri63 on October 08, 2020, 07:42:34 PM
You know I always wonder about contracts etc. With the Leafs being cap crunched could they offer AP a contract with say 6-7 million per year and give him some kind of job with the organization after his career is done. Pay him good money as a coach, scout whatever something in the organization and throw in some incentives, endorsement money etc. Money he sacrifices now he'll reap in a few years. Is that an option?

I hear what you're saying and don't doubt that happens but from my understanding, it's against the rules.

If they were to give him a job after his career with endorsements or some sort of a bonus how can the league prove anything? Pay him handsomely for whatever position they give him.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Andy on October 09, 2020, 06:54:18 AM
Quote from: Nik on October 08, 2020, 09:35:33 PM

If anyone is curious, the relevant section of the CBA is Article 26.3. All of the things being suggested are expressly not allowed.

I think there is an asterisks in that article though, something about being absolved from any wrongdoing if a) the team involved is Philadelphia, and b) if said player is Chris Pronger

*If both provisions occur, the player has a right to work for the NHL and also for the team in a scouting and interviewing process while still being signed as a player with a large cap hit for multiple ensuing seasons
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 07:15:47 AM

Also, what's being suggested doesn't make practical sense either. So let's say in negotiations between Pietrangelo's agent and Dubas that something along these lines is proposed. Pietrangelo has a 7 year/63 million offer on the table somewhere but the Leafs offer him 7 years/49 million but also a hush-hush agreement to pay him 15 million over 5 years as a scout once his career is over.

Well, the immediate problem is that the first offer is still more lucrative for the same reason guys want front-loaded deals with signing bonuses. They want that money in their investment accounts toot suite. So in order for the Leafs to make the hidden offer more lucrative they probably would need to pay him over and above the level of the comparative offer elsewhere. So let's say it's 25 million over 5 years in the secret deal.

Well, ok, but if you're Pietrangelo's agent the obvious question there is what mechanism do you have to ensure that 25 million gets paid? You can't very well sign a contract to that effect because, you know, then it becomes evidence. So are you taking Dubas' word? Dubas might not be associated with the Leafs when the secret payments are set to begin. Shanahan? Same deal. Hell, even the Rogers/Bell board members might not be around or they or Tanenbaum may sell the team. And try telling an incoming owner they have to be party to a secretly agreed upon side deal that's A) expensive and B) could seriously damage their team if exposed.

But even ignore that for a second. Remember that the relationship between teams and agents are frequently adversarial. If you're Dubas, do you want to put your professional reputation at stake and likely the chance of ever getting a job in hockey again and then put all that in the hands of an agent? What about AGMs? What if they get hired by other teams? What if your relationship with Pietrangelo himself sours over the years of his deal? And remember, you're taking on all this risk for a couple million dollars in cap savings.

Some of you would not make for very good criminals.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 08:45:39 AM
Quote from: Nik on October 09, 2020, 07:15:47 AM

Also, what's being suggested doesn't make practical sense either. So let's say in negotiations between Pietrangelo's agent and Dubas that something along these lines is proposed. Pietrangelo has a 7 year/63 million offer on the table somewhere but the Leafs offer him 7 years/49 million but also a hush-hush agreement to pay him 15 million over 5 years as a scout once his career is over.

Well, the immediate problem is that the first offer is still more lucrative for the same reason guys want front-loaded deals with signing bonuses. They want that money in their investment accounts toot suite. So in order for the Leafs to make the hidden offer more lucrative they probably would need to pay him over and above the level of the comparative offer elsewhere. So let's say it's 25 million over 5 years in the secret deal.

Well, ok, but if you're Pietrangelo's agent the obvious question there is what mechanism do you have to ensure that 25 million gets paid? You can't very well sign a contract to that effect because, you know, then it becomes evidence. So are you taking Dubas' word? Dubas might not be associated with the Leafs when the secret payments are set to begin. Shanahan? Same deal. Hell, even the Rogers/Bell board members might not be around or they or Tanenbaum may sell the team. And try telling an incoming owner they have to be party to a secretly agreed upon side deal that's A) expensive and B) could seriously damage their team if exposed.

But even ignore that for a second. Remember that the relationship between teams and agents are frequently adversarial. If you're Dubas, do you want to put your professional reputation at stake and likely the chance of ever getting a job in hockey again and then put all that in the hands of an agent? What about AGMs? What if they get hired by other teams? What if your relationship with Pietrangelo himself sours over the years of his deal? And remember, you're taking on all this risk for a couple million dollars in cap savings.

Some of you would not make for very good criminals.

What if there's a secret handshake and password?  :o #dubaspromised
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on October 09, 2020, 09:01:52 AM
Say what you will about the league's leadership and all that, but they really did (over the course of the last few negotiations) build a CBA that covers off almost any significant loophole in terms of player salaries.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bullfrog on October 09, 2020, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: Nik on October 09, 2020, 07:15:47 AM
Some of you would not make for very good criminals.

Plus the agent would get a smaller fee.

I'm honestly not sure why you're bothering to explain why it doesn't make sense. Slow day?  8)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 12:47:10 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on October 09, 2020, 11:46:03 AM
I'm honestly not sure why you're bothering to explain why it doesn't make sense. Slow day?  8)

Evidence is piling up that my life is in a tailspin. I'll keep you updated.

Seriously though, that sort of thing has been brought up before and I don't think I've gone into it much. Unlike, say, the "Any free agent the Leafs sign will make millions in endorsements" thing I've talked about it being against the rules but not why it doesn't make sense on top of that.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on October 09, 2020, 03:02:01 PM
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/status/1314641114578800640

Would have been weird if they hadn't spoken to him.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:09:51 PM
Still in the running apparently. Who are the Leafs shopping to make room is my question?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 03:15:42 PM
Holding up the whole frenzy

Kiboshing the UFA interview period did this
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.

Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?

The ONLY answer to that question is another question...

Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.

Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?

The ONLY answer to that question is another question...

Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
What did Dubas say or is that what he said?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:42:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.

Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?

The ONLY answer to that question is another question...

Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
What did Dubas say or is that what he said?

Dubas hasn?t said anything yet to my knowledge. I was just paraphrasing what TSN said that I wholeheartedly agreed with.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:42:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.

Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?

The ONLY answer to that question is another question...

Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
What did Dubas say or is that what he said?

Dubas hasn?t said anything yet to my knowledge. I was just paraphrasing what TSN said that I wholeheartedly agreed with.
Got ya.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:50:20 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:42:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
TSN just asked the question that I've been considering myself on this board, as unpopular as it was.

Do you move out one of the 'top 4' in order to bring him aboard?

The ONLY answer to that question is another question...

Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance.
What did Dubas say or is that what he said?

Dubas hasn?t said anything yet to my knowledge. I was just paraphrasing what TSN said that I wholeheartedly agreed with.
Got ya.

Like Herman said , this AP thing is likely holding up the whole league right now .
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If we're operating under the assumption that that the better a team is the better chance they have of winning a cup, isn't that question the basis for every single move ever made by every team?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 04:05:51 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 09, 2020, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
Does acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

If we're operating under the assumption that that the better a team is the better chance they have of winning a cup, isn't that question the basis for every single move ever made by every team?

Not sure what your point is relating to the context that was outlined ?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 04:14:51 PM
"Does acquiring [Target Player] (at the cost of one of those [current asset(s)]) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance."

Applies to every trade/signing situation. Not unique to Toronto's.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: iwas11in67 on October 09, 2020, 04:22:42 PM
It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: herman on October 09, 2020, 04:14:51 PM
"Does acquiring [Target Player] (at the cost of one of those [current asset(s)]) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?
If the answer is YES, than you HAVE to take that chance."

Applies to every trade/signing situation. Not unique to Toronto's.

Agreed. I'm just not sure what the significance of pointing this out makes? Doesn't make it any less true.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 04:24:38 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 04:05:51 PM
Not sure what your point is relating to the context that was outlined ?

I guess I was a little confused as to why that question would need to be emphasized when, again, I feel like it's at the heart of the discussion of any move a team might make.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 09, 2020, 04:24:38 PM
Quote from: RedLeaf on October 09, 2020, 04:05:51 PM
Not sure what your point is relating to the context that was outlined ?

I guess I was a little confused as to why that question would need to be emphasized when, again, I feel like it's at the heart of the discussion of any move a team might make.

Yeah. Like I said I was basically just paraphrasing TSN here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 09, 2020, 04:30:51 PM
Quote from: iwas11in67 on October 09, 2020, 04:22:42 PM
It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.
My kids love that commerical lol
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: bustaheims on October 09, 2020, 04:31:32 PM
It?s also a question that has been discussed ad nauseam in multiple threads in relation to Pietrangelo.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 04:36:58 PM

I guess my other thing is that the question of:

QuoteDoes acquiring Alex Pietrangelo (at the cost of one of those forwards) improve the teams chances of winning the cup?

Is actually a really complicated question because so much goes into what makes a hockey team marginally better than a different iteration of itself. I think that's why a lot of discussion here is so granular, because we're trying to answer that larger question but it's frequently not as simple as yes or no.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on October 09, 2020, 04:40:18 PM
Quote from: iwas11in67 on October 09, 2020, 04:22:42 PM
It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.

You're weird for thinking it's weird.

I like the "your girlfriend looks like mom" one.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 09, 2020, 05:13:13 PM
Screw it let's wait it out and give Pietrangelo a PTO at camp.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on October 09, 2020, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 04:40:18 PM
Quote from: iwas11in67 on October 09, 2020, 04:22:42 PM
It's bad enough having to wait for AP to sign somewhere, but if i have to watch that "Your pants are weird" commercial one more time, I'm going to scream.

You're weird for thinking it's weird.

I like the "your girlfriend looks like mom" one.
That ones so good.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
Bye don?t care now
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 09, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 09, 2020, 07:23:05 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 09, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)
Pietrangelo at 700K let's go!!!!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 07:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 09, 2020, 07:23:05 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 09, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)
Pietrangelo at 700K let's go!!!!
Yes!!!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 09, 2020, 07:43:26 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 07:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 09, 2020, 07:23:05 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 09, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaBU6pgv0OsPHz2yxy/giphy.gif)
Pietrangelo at 700K let's go!!!!
Yes!!!
Pietrangelo to show everyone what a hometown discount actually looks like. Lol
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 08:21:00 PM

Apparently Krug to St. Louis.

Which would make you think he's moving on.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 09, 2020, 08:39:18 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 09, 2020, 08:21:00 PM

Apparently Krug to St. Louis.

Which would make you think he's moving on.
Yup St Louis has moved on.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on October 09, 2020, 08:44:08 PM
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 08:44:08 PM
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.

If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on October 09, 2020, 09:14:46 PM
Quote from: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 08:44:08 PM
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.

If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.

Well, I don't know the former, but I'm interested in is did Dubas sign Brodie knowing the blues had signed Krug, making Toronto a potential 2nd choice and further negotiation, or not?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:16:07 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 09:14:46 PM
Quote from: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 08:44:08 PM
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.

If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.

Well, I don't know the former, but I'm interested in is did Dubas sign Brodie knowing the blues had signed Krug, making Toronto a potential 2nd choice and further negotiation, or not?

Might?ve been irrelevant. Brodie means there?s an avenue for re-signing Reilly. Pietrangelo tanks that unless we make TSN?s dream come true.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: . on October 09, 2020, 09:20:20 PM
Quote from: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:16:07 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 09:14:46 PM
Quote from: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 08:44:08 PM
I'd be really interested in the timeline of whether dubas knew Pietrangelo was truly not going to sign with St Lou and still went with Brodie.

If you know Pietrangelo?s asking price and the team?s level of cap flexibility you can answer that question quite easily.

Well, I don't know the former, but I'm interested in is did Dubas sign Brodie knowing the blues had signed Krug, making Toronto a potential 2nd choice and further negotiation, or not?

Might?ve been irrelevant. Brodie means there?s an avenue for re-signing Reilly. Pietrangelo tanks that unless we make TSN?s dream come true.

Sure, there's lots of opinions as to why they should or shouldn't be pursuing Pietrangelo in this 22 page thread. I'd still be curious as to whether the leafs took themselves out of it because they didn't want to be the last one standing when the music stopped, or because they truly thought signing him wasn't a good idea.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:29:56 PM
Quote from: Frycer14 on October 09, 2020, 09:20:20 PM
Sure, there's lots of opinions as to why they should or shouldn't be pursuing Pietrangelo in this 22 page thread. I'd still be curious as to whether the leafs took themselves out of it because they didn't want to be the last one standing when the music stopped, or because they truly thought signing him wasn't a good idea.

There is a ?worth it? threshold and then slightly after that is the line that makes it a bad decision for their situation. It was probably close enough to bad that it would not be worth pursuing.

Brodie and Pietrangelo are both about the same age. One is a righty and is more offensively inclined. The other is an experienced lefty on the right side and defensively inclined and cheaper. It seems like a no brainer to me. They have been chasing Brodie specifically for a while now.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on October 09, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status/1314738210141073409

I thought that sounded crazy, but they are at 81.6M with 14 forwards, 6D and 2G.

Steen (5.75) could be an LTIR candidate and if they could unload Bozak (5.0) or Schwartz (5.35)...

Dunn is thier only remaining RFA
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 09:37:44 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/bu8fJbS.gif)

But also, if it?s their policy to never hand out signing bonuses, that?s that.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on October 09, 2020, 09:55:07 PM
So wait... They didn't pony up an extra $1m-1.5m to resign their captain? How much better is Pietro vs Krug?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on October 09, 2020, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: Bender on October 09, 2020, 09:55:07 PM
So wait... They didn't pony up an extra $1m-1.5m to resign their captain? How much better is Pietro vs Krug?

All the talk was it being about structure, rather than total value.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 10:15:50 PM
https://theathletic.com/2128288/2020/10/09/why-the-leafs-landed-on-t-j-brodie-and-abandoned-pursuit-of-alex-pietrangelo/

QuoteIn the end, Pietrangelo?s ask was simply too much for Toronto. And it was clear the Leafs were not his first choice, with Vegas the clear front-runner, even after some of Toronto?s top players tried to talk him into coming home.

Unlike Wayne Simmonds, who signed with the Leafs earlier in the day, Pietrangelo wasn?t going to take less to be in Toronto.

?Alex won?t be signing anywhere at a discount,? one source close to the player told The Athletic on Friday evening.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2020, 10:21:33 PM

We'll have to see what the final number is but the only way I'd have been interested in Pietrangelo is at a substantial discount so I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 09, 2020, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 09, 2020, 10:21:33 PM

We'll have to see what the final number is but the only way I'd have been interested in Pietrangelo is at a substantial discount so I'm fine with that.

Sounds like it will start with a 9 and come with bonuses and movement clauses. Though the market drying up sort of leaves only Vegas as a viable suitor (come on, Colorado, don?t let Boston in).
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 09, 2020, 10:32:25 PM
I could see New Jersey and Columbus coming up with big offers as well. They aren't the contender types that Pietrangelo might originally have been looking for though.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on October 09, 2020, 11:58:53 PM
I'm wondering if he is overplaying his hand here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 10, 2020, 09:18:17 AM
I sure hope he doesn't go to Boston
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Joe on October 10, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Significantly Insignificant on October 10, 2020, 01:39:54 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on October 10, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.


Maybe he just likes to gamble.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on October 10, 2020, 01:43:05 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on October 10, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.

Yeah, he's there to hear their pitch is what they are saying.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 10, 2020, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: Deebo on October 10, 2020, 01:43:05 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on October 10, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.

Yeah, he's there to hear their pitch is what they are saying.

Is he trying to catch COVID?

(Yeah, it's a private charter, but you can handle a sales pitch over video conference)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2020, 01:53:36 PM
I imagine it's more about touring the facilities and stuff than just having a face to face meeting.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 10, 2020, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2020, 01:53:36 PM
I imagine it's more about touring the facilities and stuff than just having a face to face meeting.

Of course. Family transplant tour. But also... COVID hotspot.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Bender on October 10, 2020, 02:00:21 PM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on October 10, 2020, 01:39:54 PM
Quote from: Joe S. on October 10, 2020, 01:36:15 PM
Apparently he?s on a plane to Vegas. I heard that on the FAN a couple of hours ago.


Maybe he just likes to gamble.
Woo!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201010/de1171c758da46dae7fc5853a02e576d.gif)
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2020, 02:01:54 PM
Quote from: herman on October 10, 2020, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 10, 2020, 01:53:36 PM
I imagine it's more about touring the facilities and stuff than just having a face to face meeting.

Of course. Family transplant tour. But also... COVID hotspot.

A very quick glance seems to suggest that the numbers there aren't awful. And I mean if he signed there he'd be flying over soon anyway to get ready for camp. I don't really see the big deal as long as the proper safety measures are all taken.

edit: if he started visiting 4 or 5 other cities then I could maybe grumble, but if he's 95% certain he's signing with Vegas and just needed a trip to get to 100% it's fine I think. And I imagine that's the case here.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 10, 2020, 05:43:26 PM
So the rumours of Petro to Vegas are true lol. I think he signs there.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 11, 2020, 05:14:20 PM
https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status/1315397884972425216

This seemed like a done deal to me when he was flying over there but getting closer to that now.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 12, 2020, 12:28:20 PM
Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 12, 2020, 12:28:20 PM
Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?
Heard 7 x 8.25 yesterday but nothing confirmed.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 12, 2020, 12:52:13 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 12, 2020, 12:28:20 PM
Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?

I saw ~8.25M x 7, with requisite NMCs/NTC and bonuses as well (probably the same account, Guilt Trip?). Probably went down from 9ish once the Leafs cut bait and left only Vegas viable.

The Schmidt trade, which is established in principle but not currently filed for whatever reason, opens up nearly 6M for Vegas unless they have to retain. I know Dubas is a Schmidt fan, and wouldn't be opposed to seeing him land here twice retained via Florida (bye Holl); much nicer than him landing in Winnipeg or Boston.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
Quote from: herman on October 12, 2020, 12:52:13 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 12, 2020, 12:28:20 PM
Any rumors of the numbers being thrown around for Peter and Angelo?

I saw ~8.25M x 7, with requisite NMCs/NTC and bonuses as well (probably the same account, Guilt Trip?). Probably went down from 9ish once the Leafs cut bait and left only Vegas viable.

The Schmidt trade, which is established in principle but not currently filed for whatever reason, opens up nearly 6M for Vegas unless they have to retain. I know Dubas is a Schmidt fan, and wouldn't be opposed to seeing him land here twice retained via Florida (bye Holl); much nicer than him landing in Winnipeg or Boston.
Schmidt would be a nica addition but cost way too much and plays the left side. We are already set on the left for now!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 12, 2020, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
Schmidt would be a nica addition but cost way too much and plays the left side. We are already set on the left for now!

He plays both and has been 1RD for Vegas actually. Twice-retain (at max amounts) would bring him down to ~1.5M
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 02:11:44 PM
Quote from: herman on October 12, 2020, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
Schmidt would be a nica addition but cost way too much and plays the left side. We are already set on the left for now!

He plays both and has been 1RD for Vegas actually. Twice-retain (at max amounts) would bring him down to ~1.5M
Nice, dbl retain haha!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 12, 2020, 03:10:13 PM
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/1315723342297608195
Oh noes
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 05:56:00 PM
Quote from: herman on October 12, 2020, 03:10:13 PM
https://twitter.com/andystrickland/status/1315723342297608195
Oh noes
Well then we don't want any of those guys in T.O where you're rumoured to be traded weekly lol.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 12, 2020, 07:02:31 PM
https://twitter.com/pierrevlebrun/status/1315789450618777603
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 12, 2020, 07:10:46 PM
So who they dumping now to make room?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 12, 2020, 07:12:10 PM
https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1315791466912976897
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 12, 2020, 07:10:46 PM
So who they dumping now to make room?
Fluery or a combo of around 6 mill. We'll take Whitecloud off their hands!
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: WAYNEINIONA on October 12, 2020, 08:55:30 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on October 12, 2020, 07:12:10 PM
https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1315791466912976897

And a full no movement clause for the duration?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:05:39 PM
Apparently no signing bonuses or anything like that. Really strange move by St Louis and Petro here. That sounds like a broken relationship. As for Vegas, I don't think it was worth it. They lost Schmidt who is very good and they still need to dump someone else because they're still over the cap with 12F 7D.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 12, 2020, 09:09:48 PM

It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 12, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:05:39 PM
Apparently no signing bonuses or anything like that. Really strange move by St Louis and Petro here. That sounds like a broken relationship. As for Vegas, I don't think it was worth it. They lost Schmidt who is very good and they still need to dump someone else because they're still over the cap with 12F 7D.

Maybe I missed it but I don't think anyone's reported the breakdown/structure of the contract yet.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 12, 2020, 09:09:48 PM

It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.
I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it. I think Vegas is going to dump Fleury and retain half his salary. That'll give them 2 mill to play with. They really don't have anyone to sign in 21/22.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:35:40 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on October 12, 2020, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:05:39 PM
Apparently no signing bonuses or anything like that. Really strange move by St Louis and Petro here. That sounds like a broken relationship. As for Vegas, I don't think it was worth it. They lost Schmidt who is very good and they still need to dump someone else because they're still over the cap with 12F 7D.

Maybe I missed it but I don't think anyone's reported the breakdown/structure of the contract yet.
I was just looking at CapFriendly....that's what the ! is for lol
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Heroic Shrimp on October 12, 2020, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 12, 2020, 09:09:48 PM

It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.
I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it. I think Vegas is going to dump Fleury and retain half his salary. That'll give them 2 mill to play with. They really don't have anyone to sign in 21/22.
Re: dumping Fleury, guess again:

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1315831139010052096?s=19
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
Quote from: Heroic Shrimp on October 12, 2020, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:32:32 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 12, 2020, 09:09:48 PM

It's a little unfortunate because you figure that if the shutdown hadn't messed up cap growth the Leafs probably could have swung a competitive offer but ultimatel, eh, whatever.
I think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it. I think Vegas is going to dump Fleury and retain half his salary. That'll give them 2 mill to play with. They really don't have anyone to sign in 21/22.
Re: dumping Fleury, guess again:

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1315831139010052096?s=19
No guesses. We'll take Whitecloud off their hands though.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Deebo on October 12, 2020, 10:08:38 PM
With the 21 man roster on capfriendly, they are less than a million over the cap.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2020, 12:04:34 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 12, 2020, 09:32:32 PMI think the Leafs always intended to go after Brodie, if available. I don't think they really wanted Petro because if they did, they could have paid him the 8.8. Willy and Kappy would do it.

I think there's a massive difference between needing to trade Johnsson and Kapanen to make someone fit and having to trade Nylander to do it. Nylander's a core part of the team. Absent the cap slowdown, you could have had both.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro. Get rid of Nylander because Petro answers all the needs they have on D. He then slams Brodie in one sentence because Calgary let him go but no mention about St Louis moving on from Petro and saving themselves 2.3 mill.
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Zee on October 13, 2020, 11:30:02 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro. Get rid of Nylander because Petro answers all the needs they have on D. He then slams Brodie in one sentence because Calgary let him go but no mention about St Louis moving on from Petro and saving themselves 2.3 mill.
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?

Colaiacovo is one of those Woodbridge Leafs fans that doesn't think that far.  Give him a big name signing and he'd dump a bunch of players to get him without thinking of consequences.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Frank E on October 13, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
Given what the trade market looked like, I think trading Nylander would have been difficult in terms of getting a decent value...other than maybe for a top pairing d-man.

So I'm disappointed that they couldn't land Pietrangelo, but I'm not unhappy with how they used their assets/cap dollars and that they got Brodie instead.  The only disappointing move for me was the Johnsson deal, but they needed the cap space, and there just wasn't much market value for the guy given all the supply of good forwards out there as UFA.

I said a few days ago that I thought prices and terms were going to be reasonable, and I think that turned out to be the case.  It's really too bad the Leafs didn't have more cap space available. 
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: azzurri63 on October 13, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro. Get rid of Nylander because Petro answers all the needs they have on D. He then slams Brodie in one sentence because Calgary let him go but no mention about St Louis moving on from Petro and saving themselves 2.3 mill.
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?

I agree 8.8 is too much. Not sure if they could have gotten him for $8 million per season but if possible how about signing both AP and Brodie and trading Nylander. Our defense would have been solid. Sure we lose some scoring but overall would we be a better team or weaker? Nik I do agree with you on Nylander being a big part of the team but in my opinion a change was needed with this team and the big 4. Matthews and Tavares aren't going anywhere and Marners contract yikes probably hard to trade without taking some salary back so that leaves Nylander as the one to go. I didn't like his contract because of him holding out otherwise its a good deal and easily tradeable.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Andy on October 13, 2020, 12:08:17 PM
You know it's funny, there's always all of this media talk about Toronto's "horrible" cap situation and how overpaid certain players (who haven't nearly reached their prime yet) are yet a lot of these same people balk when the Leafs refrain from signing a guy who will be 31 in January to a 7year x 9million per+ deal. That is a pretty crazy risk to take, imo. And then I've seen multiple articles listing Brodie as a risky sign because he's already 30. I really don't get it. And had the Leafs cleared out space and signed Pietrangelo, you know the second he starts to struggle the narrative will immediately shift to how risky the signing was and how poorly the assets were managed, etc. etc.

I guess this is just a rambling, ranting way of saying I am glad we stayed far away from that AP contract and am happy with the way the roster has been constructed thus far. Oh, and I am also aboard the Thornton train.  8)

Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: herman on October 13, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
Quote from: Zee on October 13, 2020, 11:30:02 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
Its funny and annoying to listen to Colaiacovo go on about the Leafs should have traded everything they had to to get Petro.

Colaiacovo is one of those Woodbridge Leafs fans that doesn't think that far.  Give him a big name signing and he'd dump a bunch of players to get him without thinking of consequences.

He's also really good friends with Pietrangelo from his days playing in St. Louis, so it goes a bit beyond just clamouring for a big ticket free agent.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Nik on October 13, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?

I really don't think enough attention got paid to that article that was posted examining Pietrangelo's actual role with the Blues. I think most of the people who really wanted him here cast him in the Norris-contending do everything play 25 minutes a night and be the best defenseman on the whole ice and apparently aren't aware that the Blues had their real success in not using him against the other team's top lines.

I really, genuinely believe that the sort of fans who are the most upset the Leafs missed out on Pietrangelo would not be satisfied with him or any one who fell short of a Pronger/Larry Robinson sort of all-timer in the role.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 01:34:21 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 13, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on October 13, 2020, 10:01:04 AM
I would have liked to get Petro but not at what it would have cost. Is Petro better then Brodie? Absolutely but what's best for the team overall? Having Petro or having Brodie and Nylander and anything else it would have cost to land him?

I really don't think enough attention got paid to that article that was posted examining Pietrangelo's actual role with the Blues. I think most of the people who really wanted him here cast him in the Norris-contending do everything play 25 minutes a night and be the best defenseman on the whole ice and apparently aren't aware that the Blues had their real success in not using him against the other team's top lines.

I read that as well. Parayko apparently got the tougher assignments.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: CarltonTheBear on October 13, 2020, 01:34:37 PM
Quote from: Nik on October 13, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
I really don't think enough attention got paid to that article that was posted examining Pietrangelo's actual role with the Blues. I think most of the people who really wanted him here cast him in the Norris-contending do everything play 25 minutes a night and be the best defenseman on the whole ice and apparently aren't aware that the Blues had their real success in not using him against the other team's top lines.

I chuckled when Vegas' GM said he was the "first over the boards in every situation for his team"... except for when the other teams top players come on the ice or when his team is shorthanded I guess.
Title: Re: Pietrangelo Watch
Post by: RedLeaf on October 13, 2020, 06:29:53 PM
Love this headline from TSN..

Pietrangelo on Vegas: 'I was impressed with what the organization could offer'

Gee. I wonder if he means the biggest cash offer made to him ?