Gretzky at 60

[Kin]

So with Wayne Gretzky turning 60 I was thinking it was kind of ridiculous that the League hasn't chosen some form of lasting honour in Gretzky's name. While Gretzky isn't my choice for best player ever in terms of peak performance, it's hard to argue with his career as the best ever. So given that we've already got the Richard and Lindsay, I feel like it's probably time to start thinking about the right way to honour Gretzky with an award. Some ideas:

1. Rename the Art Ross. In general I don't think awards should be renamed because it maybe suggests the honour is temporary but this seems like the best fit.

2. Rename the Conn Smythe. Same as above. I like this less because the fit seems less appropriate and the Conn Smythe trophy itself is so cool.

3. All Star Game MVP. Kind of a minor award that nobody pays a lot of attention to but it's unnamed right now at least.

4. Come up with some sort of equivalent to the Hank Aaron award. Either a Best Forward award or maybe a Best Overall Player thing.

Anyways, just spitballing on a snowy morning. Thoughts?

 

[bustaheims]

Maybe create a new trophy for the player with the most assists? I know it's not the sexiest of things to hand out an award for, but it would be fitting, as Gretzky had more career assists than anyone else in the league had career points.

If Richards is honoured as the epitome of goal scorers, Gretzky should be honoured as the epitome of a setup man.

 

[Guilt Trip]

So with Wayne Gretzky turning 60 I was thinking it was kind of ridiculous that the League hasn't chosen some form of lasting honour in Gretzky's name. While Gretzky isn't my choice for best player ever in terms of peak performance, it's hard to argue with his career as the best ever. So given that we've already got the Richard and Lindsay, I feel like it's probably time to start thinking about the right way to honour Gretzky with an award. Some ideas:

1. Rename the Art Ross. In general I don't think awards should be renamed because it maybe suggests the honour is temporary but this seems like the best fit.

2. Rename the Conn Smythe. Same as above. I like this less because the fit seems less appropriate and the Conn Smythe trophy itself is so cool.

3. All Star Game MVP. Kind of a minor award that nobody pays a lot of attention to but it's unnamed right now at least.

4. Come up with some sort of equivalent to the Hank Aaron award. Either a Best Forward award or maybe a Best Overall Player thing.

Anyways, just spitballing on a snowy morning. Thoughts?

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

 

[Kin]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

I guess but the Nik Lidstrom Award doesn't roll off the tongue in the same way.

 

[Zee]

Maybe create a new trophy for the player with the most assists? I know it's not the sexiest of things to hand out an award for, but it would be fitting, as Gretzky had more career assists than anyone else in the league had career points.

If Richards is honoured as the epitome of goal scorers, Gretzky should be honoured as the epitome of a setup man.

That's actually a good one.  Rocket for goals, Gretzky for assists. 

 

[Kin]

I guess my thing there is that it seems like an odd choice for the guy who is also the all time leading goal scorer and has the record for single season goal scoring. Seems like it should be something slightly more significant and rewarding someone at the very top of the heap.

 

[bustaheims]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

 

[bustaheims]

I guess my thing there is that it seems like an odd choice for the guy who is also the all time leading goal scorer and has the record for single season goal scoring. Seems like it should be something slightly more significant and rewarding someone at the very top of the heap.

Agreed, but it's the most natural fit that isn't covered by some other award - even if indirectly. The Hart and Lindsay trophies essentially cover best overall player (and, in the overwhelming majority of seasons, it's also the best forward), albeit in an imperfect fashion - though, that would remain true of any other subjective type award for best player, best forward, and so on. If we're going to add a trophy for Gretzky, there's a big part of me that would want it to be less subjective and based more in actual numbers.

Gretzky also own 11 of the top 12 single season assist totals, including the top 7, so it's not exactly out of character.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

1. Rename the Art Ross. In general I don't think awards should be renamed because it maybe suggests the honour is temporary but this seems like the best fit.

2. Rename the Conn Smythe. Same as above. I like this less because the fit seems less appropriate and the Conn Smythe trophy itself is so cool.

3. All Star Game MVP. Kind of a minor award that nobody pays a lot of attention to but it's unnamed right now at least.

4. Come up with some sort of equivalent to the Hank Aaron award. Either a Best Forward award or maybe a Best Overall Player thing.

Any particular reason you didn't include the Hart trophy here as one that could be re-named? I wonder if that would be a little easier to swallow for traditionalists since it wasn't really named after someone who had a direct association to the league/hockey, whereas Art Ross is in the HHOF. Sort of like how no one really seemed to cause a stir over Ted Lindsay bumping Lester B. Pearson for that award.

 

[L K]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

 

[Kin]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

 

[Highlander]

Maybe create a new trophy for the player with the most assists? I know it's not the sexiest of things to hand out an award for, but it would be fitting, as Gretzky had more career assists than anyone else in the league had career points.

If Richards is honoured as the epitome of goal scorers, Gretzky should be honoured as the epitome of a setup man.

That's actually a good one.  Rocket for goals, Gretzky for assists.

If you did that in 20 years you would have to rename it the Mitch Marner Trophy.

 

[L K]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

Yeah, that's fair.

 

[bustaheims]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

Yeah. That's part of it, and Bourque and Coffey are the two highest scoring defencemen of all-time, so they're probably the next best choices.

 

[Guilt Trip]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

Yeah. That's part of it, and Bourque and Coffey are the two highest scoring defencemen of all-time, so they're probably the next best choices.

No, it's Bobby Orr regardless of his political views. Those two aren't even close to being in the same league as Orr. No one is. I think he was the greatest player ever.
Orr 1.393 P/GP. Coffee is 2nd all time at 1.087P/GP. Only D man to ever lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. Most points, assists in a season. He scored at .411 G/GP, no other D man is at .3 G/GP.
Only 34% of Orr's points came from the PP. Bourque 48.2%, Coffee 43.4%.

Just for kicks....If Orr stayed healthy and continued playing at his production rate and played as long as Bourque, he would have had around 2245 points, some 666 points more then Bourque. Even at a point per game pace he would have had 400 more points them him.
There's Orr and then there's everyone else.

 

[Kin]

Any particular reason you didn't include the Hart trophy here as one that could be re-named? I wonder if that would be a little easier to swallow for traditionalists since it wasn't really named after someone who had a direct association to the league/hockey, whereas Art Ross is in the HHOF. Sort of like how no one really seemed to cause a stir over Ted Lindsay bumping Lester B. Pearson for that award.

I didn't really think of it is all but you're right that it makes as much sense as anything I suggested.

 

[Kin]

Yeah. That's part of it, and Bourque and Coffey are the two highest scoring defencemen of all-time, so they're probably the next best choices.

Well, but I also think you shouldn't be doing a lot of this at once. Like, I'm sure someone could make the argument that Lemieux deserves one award or another or that the Selke makes more sense as the Yzerman or whatever but I feel like Gretzky's place in the game is sort of singular and unique in that when discussing his accomplishments there's no "Well, if he was healthy he'd..." or the like. Orr was obviously a great player and he holds a handful of records. Same with Lemieux. Gretzky has dozens.

 

[Bender]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

Yeah. That's part of it, and Bourque and Coffey are the two highest scoring defencemen of all-time, so they're probably the next best choices.

No, it's Bobby Orr regardless of his political views. Those two aren't even close to being in the same league as Orr. No one is. I think he was the greatest player ever.
Orr 1.393 P/GP. Coffee is 2nd all time at 1.087P/GP. Only D man to ever lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. Most points, assists in a season. He scored at .411 G/GP, no other D man is at .3 G/GP.
Only 34% of Orr's points came from the PP. Bourque 48.2%, Coffee 43.4%.

Just for kicks....If Orr stayed healthy and continued playing at his production rate and played as long as Bourque, he would have had around 2245 points, some 666 points more then Bourque. Even at a point per game pace he would have had 400 more points them him.
There's Orr and then there's everyone else.

I honestly think longevity matters and is part of what makes a player great. You can't discount durability and longevity.

 

[groundskeeper willie]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

Yeah. That's part of it, and Bourque and Coffey are the two highest scoring defencemen of all-time, so they're probably the next best choices.

No, it's Bobby Orr regardless of his political views. Those two aren't even close to being in the same league as Orr. No one is. I think he was the greatest player ever.
Orr 1.393 P/GP. Coffee is 2nd all time at 1.087P/GP. Only D man to ever lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. Most points, assists in a season. He scored at .411 G/GP, no other D man is at .3 G/GP.
Only 34% of Orr's points came from the PP. Bourque 48.2%, Coffee 43.4%.

Just for kicks....If Orr stayed healthy and continued playing at his production rate and played as long as Bourque, he would have had around 2245 points, some 666 points more then Bourque. Even at a point per game pace he would have had 400 more points them him.
There's Orr and then there's everyone else.

I honestly think longevity matters and is part of what makes a player great. You can't discount durability and longevity.

Longevity absolutely matters, but in Orr's case wasn't his knee problem something that can easily be fixed for the last 20 or 30 years now? If so it's hard to punish him for that when comparing him to more modern players. It's not like we're comparing Eric Lindros to Gordie Howe here.

 

[Guilt Trip]

If you're going to change the Art Ross, you'll have to change the Norris as well.

Or you do what people have proposed doing for a while - split the award between best overall defenceman (Norris) and top scoring defenceman - aka the Art Ross for blueliners (Bourque or Coffey)

I know Bourque or Coffey have the longevity thing going there but I kind of have a hard time not thinking Bobby Orr for the blueliner Art Ross

Might want to wait a few years on that one until people forget Bobby's political endorsements.

Yeah. That's part of it, and Bourque and Coffey are the two highest scoring defencemen of all-time, so they're probably the next best choices.

No, it's Bobby Orr regardless of his political views. Those two aren't even close to being in the same league as Orr. No one is. I think he was the greatest player ever.
Orr 1.393 P/GP. Coffee is 2nd all time at 1.087P/GP. Only D man to ever lead the league in scoring and he did it twice. Most points, assists in a season. He scored at .411 G/GP, no other D man is at .3 G/GP.
Only 34% of Orr's points came from the PP. Bourque 48.2%, Coffee 43.4%.

Just for kicks....If Orr stayed healthy and continued playing at his production rate and played as long as Bourque, he would have had around 2245 points, some 666 points more then Bourque. Even at a point per game pace he would have had 400 more points them him.
There's Orr and then there's everyone else.

I honestly think longevity matters and is part of what makes a player great. You can't discount durability and longevity.

So Orr isn't great because he only played 9 plus a few partial years?