Game 2 - Sens @ Leafs - Saturday Oct 8th 2011 - 19:00 EST - 6-5 Win

[Zee]

I'll take the win but man what an ugly 3rd period. Let's hope that's the last time the Leafs give up 5 goals in one frame.

 

[cw]

coachrw63 Ron Wilson
That kind of win will keep us humble with such a long break. We'll have a great week of practice, and time with the troops can only be good.

If they had gone into this week's break with two shutouts, it might not be as productive a week as it will with their 3rd period collapse of last night. Like any Leafs fan, I would have enjoyed a shutout or dominating the Sens but it's not a bad back-to-earth lesson to come out of this game and one delivered without costing them any points in the standings.

Their PP needs lots of work - particularly their 5 on 3. They have been going to the net a little better which will eventually payoff. A part of Connolly's purpose was to help the PP. We'll find out soon enough how that works out.

With PK forwards Steckel, Brown, Lombardi, Dupuis & Armstrong, with Connolly waiting in the wings,  that's a pretty good group of PKing forwards from what I've seen so far.

Konopka has a future in the WWF. I realize Brown has scrapped with Konopka before but my sense was that he took one for Orr who played less than 3 minutes in the game. Konopka shot his mouth off before the game about what he was going to do and Brown, in my opinion, interceded. I continue to feel the Leafs are trying to protect Orr and carefully work him back into the line up which is why Rosehill is still around.

I snickered at some of the analysis last night touting Ottawa's young age. Their average age is 27. The Leafs average age is 26.3. Yes, the Sens had a number of young, inexperienced guys - a couple more than the Leafs. They also had Anderson, Auld, Phillips, Kuba, Gonchar, Alfredsson, Spezza, Neil, Milachek, Konopka, etc. But with the Sens against the second youngest team in the NHL - that isn't where I'd chose to push that point as hard as they did to excuse their play without dwelling on what the Leafs have been trying to do with a young club. It's a point that would resonate more with nearly any other club in the NHL.

 

[L K]

coachrw63 Ron Wilson
That kind of win will keep us humble with such a long break. We'll have a great week of practice, and time with the troops can only be good.

Maybe I just really don't like Wilson's voice.  He comes across as quite reasonable in text.  Ghost writer?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

coachrw63 Ron Wilson
That kind of win will keep us humble with such a long break. We'll have a great week of practice, and time with the troops can only be good.

Maybe I just really don't like Wilson's voice.  He comes across as quite reasonable in text.  Ghost writer?

He's probably fine when there's no microphones in his face.  I assume that's when he 'turns on the Ron'.

 

[cw]

What a game!
Alfie!

Yup. He still has skills. He'll be a nice fetch for someone at the deadlie.

Never cared for some of the things he said but always respected what he could do on the ice. He's a smart, skilled player - tougher with stiffer resolve to compete in tough games than some folks give him credit for and in my opinion, he has been their best player since Ottawa rejoined the league. In my opinion, he'll deserve every second of appreciation when they raise his number to the rafters and very little blame for why a Cup banner isn't raised with it.

 

[maplesyrup]

What a game!
Alfie!

Yup. He still has skills. He'll be a nice fetch for someone at the deadlie.

Never cared for some of the things he said but always respected what he could do on the ice. He's a smart, skilled player - tougher with stiffer resolve to compete in tough games than some folks give him credit for and in my opinion, he has been their best player since Ottawa rejoined the league. In my opinion, he'll deserve every second of appreciation when they raise his number to the rafters and very little blame for why a Cup banner isn't raised with it.

Agreed... and while MF might be right about him retiring as a Sen, I'm not sure it would be the best thing for the franchise. Without thinking a whole lot about potential partners, I'd be most interested in seeing what a line of Sedin/Sedin/Alfredsson would look like for one.

 

[Nik]

I snickered at some of the analysis last night touting Ottawa's young age. Their average age is 27. The Leafs average age is 26.3. Yes, the Sens had a number of young, inexperienced guys - a couple more than the Leafs. They also had Anderson, Auld, Phillips, Kuba, Gonchar, Alfredsson, Spezza, Neil, Milachek, Konopka, etc. But with the Sens against the second youngest team in the NHL - that isn't where I'd chose to push that point as hard as they did to excuse their play without dwelling on what the Leafs have been trying to do with a young club. It's a point that would resonate more with nearly any other club in the NHL.

I think that's probably a better argument for why judging a team's youth by average age isn't terribly helpful than it is a straight up repudiation of the "excuse". Ottawa had 10 skaters last night under 25 to the Leafs' 5. That they have a handful of guys in their mid-late 30's will create a false impression of their average age and will distort the point being made. There's no real difference in terms of experience between JM Liles at 30 and Sergei Gonchar at 37. There's a world of difference between a 25 year old centre and Zibenajad.

 

[cw]

What a game!
Alfie!

Yup. He still has skills. He'll be a nice fetch for someone at the deadlie.

Never cared for some of the things he said but always respected what he could do on the ice. He's a smart, skilled player - tougher with stiffer resolve to compete in tough games than some folks give him credit for and in my opinion, he has been their best player since Ottawa rejoined the league. In my opinion, he'll deserve every second of appreciation when they raise his number to the rafters and very little blame for why a Cup banner isn't raised with it.

Agreed... and while MF might be right about him retiring as a Sen, I'm not sure it would be the best thing for the franchise. Without thinking a whole lot about potential partners, I'd be most interested in seeing what a line of Sedin/Sedin/Alfredsson would look like for one.

I suspect he learned from the Sundin incident - it's a no win situation for him as he'll be criticized no matter which way he goes. So he might as well follow his heart and retire a Sen if that's what he wants to do.

If he can remain healthy and wanted to accept a trade (he doesn't have a NTC on capgeek), there wouldn't be many teams he couldn't help out in a playoff run.

If he finishes his contract in 2013, he'll have averaged $4.47 mil/yr since 2000. I think Sundin was the better player and not the greediest but we may recall Mats getting paid 5 yrs x $9 mil per (until the lockout). For a PPG forward who was pretty good two ways, he may have been one of the best bargains in hockey over that time. No doubt, he left a lot of money on the table playing for the Sens.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Ratface is still a goof and he proved it last night, sticking his foot out on Grabbo. It was as blatant as ever on the replay.

 

[Sucker Punch]

Alfie is free to do whatever the hell he pleases.

I he wants to be traded to a contender, great.  If he wants to sign elsewhere as a UFA, fine.  If he wants to retire as a Senator, that's awesome too.

I just hope he returns to the Ottawa organization in some way, no matter what it is.

 

[4th Liner]

Interesting picture on the Leafs webpage:

 

[moon111]

coachrw63 Ron Wilson
That kind of win will keep us humble with such a long break. We'll have a great week of practice, and time with the troops can only be good.

Maybe I just really don't like Wilson's voice.  He comes across as quite reasonable in text.  Ghost writer?

He's probably fine when there's no microphones in his face.  I assume that's when he 'turns on the Ron'.

By the second intermission, I thought the Leafs were playing way too cocky and was thinking Ron better calm them down and shift focus to playing a tight game the rest of the way.  I'm hoping it was just a case the message didn't get across rather then the message wasn't sent.

 

[Fanatic]

That picture was also on the tickets for last night's game.

 

[cw]

I snickered at some of the analysis last night touting Ottawa's young age. Their average age is 27. The Leafs average age is 26.3. Yes, the Sens had a number of young, inexperienced guys - a couple more than the Leafs. They also had Anderson, Auld, Phillips, Kuba, Gonchar, Alfredsson, Spezza, Neil, Milachek, Konopka, etc. But with the Sens against the second youngest team in the NHL - that isn't where I'd chose to push that point as hard as they did to excuse their play without dwelling on what the Leafs have been trying to do with a young club. It's a point that would resonate more with nearly any other club in the NHL.

I think that's probably a better argument for why judging a team's youth by average age isn't terribly helpful than it is a straight up repudiation of the "excuse". Ottawa had 10 skaters last night under 25 to the Leafs' 5. That they have a handful of guys in their mid-late 30's will create a false impression of their average age and will distort the point being made. There's no real difference in terms of experience between JM Liles at 30 and Sergei Gonchar at 37. There's a world of difference between a 25 year old centre and Zibenajad.

Goaltending
- plays 3-4 times the minutes of the skater with the puck in his zone roughly half the time - a premium should be placed on the goaltender.
Between Reimer's half season and Anderson/Auld's NHL experience, it's no contest - significant advantage Ottawa in the position that requires the most development.

Defence
Ottawa iced one rookie, one dman with 4 years NHL experience & three dmen with 6 or more years NHL experience as did the Leafs. The difference was Karlson's two NHL seasons vs Gunnarsson's three. Very slight mathematical experience edge to the Leafs in the position that requires the second most development after goalies. A one year difference in NHL experience that's very fuzzy in terms of the measurable impact on the game. In other words, it's pretty close to a tie between the two using your criteria.

Forwards
require less development that goalies or dmen and play the least average amount of ice time per player but there are usually three of them on the ice at a time.
-  The Leafs iced seven guys with 6 or more years NHL experience vs the Sens 5. The Leafs iced 1 rookie to the Sens 3. The Sens reduced that gap by playing Alfredsson, Spezza & Michalek more than the Leafs top forward in ice time, Kessel. Clear advantage to the Leafs.

To me, that advantage to the Leafs with their forwards NHL experience would be largely offset by their disadvantage in goaltending experience - ignoring the caliber of the player's talents or the exercise can get really circular and indecipherable.

In other words, there was NOT a gigantic gap in NHL experience between the two clubs - even using the criteria you proposed.

The age gap between the youngest team in the league and the oldest team in the league isn't a ton - roughly four to five years. When one team is .7 years younger in average age, that's significant enough to keep them fairly close when we split hairs on NHL experience - giving that edge to the older team.

Between the two clubs, saying one was significantly disadvantaged because of age last night was misleading. The fact of the matter is that in my opinion, compared to differences you'd see with these clubs between other clubs in the NHL, these two teams are much closer in that area than they would be with a lot of other NHL clubs. So to me, it was a misleading point. Ottawa was maybe at a slight disadvantage - not a major one. A good analyst should have realized that.

 

[cw]

coachrw63 Ron Wilson
That kind of win will keep us humble with such a long break. We'll have a great week of practice, and time with the troops can only be good.

Maybe I just really don't like Wilson's voice.  He comes across as quite reasonable in text.  Ghost writer?

He's probably fine when there's no microphones in his face.  I assume that's when he 'turns on the Ron'.

He rolls along during a media scrum and he's doing fine. Then someone asks him something that irritates him and he loses his patience some and snaps back at them. If he could just get past those moments without snapping, he'd have a better relationship with the media. As many would have observed, nearly all coaches can snap at media stupidity or questions that carry opinion and are driving at an uncomfortable point. Ron's threshold just seems a little lower than average maybe and to me, that's where he gets himself into a little trouble.

 

[L K]

One thing I will say is that Gardiner is not NHL ready defensively.  He's a pretty big liability on the ice and with Franson sitting in the press-box, I think he's better served working on a being a smarter offensive player in the AHL for a while.  He was off in la-la land when Alfredsson came out of the box because he wasn't paying attention to Reimer smashing his stick on the ice and he chases the puck rather than sticking to his man a lot in the defensive zone.

 

[Nik]

To me, that advantage to the Leafs with their forwards NHL experience would be largely offset by their disadvantage in goaltending experience - ignoring the caliber of the player's talents or the exercise can get really circular and indecipherable.

In other words, there was NOT a gigantic gap in NHL experience between the two clubs - even using the criteria you proposed.

I'm not sure where you see me proposing anything in the way of criteria outside of saying that average ages don't work terrifically well as an absolute, especially in this situation where the Sens have two players who are 7 and 8 years older than anyone on the Leafs.

It doesn't have to be an entirely one way or the other thing here. Age matters as does experience. So saying that the Sens and Leafs each had "one rookie" forward is as misleading when the Leafs' rookie is 23 years old and the Sens rookie is 18.

Between the two clubs, saying one was significantly disadvantaged because of age last night was misleading.

From what I remember, and I can't claim to have memorized anything said by the announcers said last night, the talk about Ottawa's youth was in the context of "Ottawa is young and inexperienced, which is one of the reasons why they're not very good" vs. the "The Leafs are much older and more experienced which is why they're winning the game" that you seem to have heard.

 

[cw]

One thing I will say is that Gardiner is not NHL ready defensively.  He's a pretty big liability on the ice and with Franson sitting in the press-box, I think he's better served working on a being a smarter offensive player in the AHL for a while.  He was off in la-la land when Alfredsson came out of the box because he wasn't paying attention to Reimer smashing his stick on the ice and he chases the puck rather than sticking to his man a lot in the defensive zone.

It didn't go unnoticed by the coaching staff who benched him after that second goal. I love the way he can handle the puck but I also think he needs to go to the Dallas Eakins school of defence for a bit.

On that first goal, if you go back further on the play, that was a bad change by those not on the ice at the time of the goal. They didn't get it deep and the puck was on it's way back with the Sens at the blueline before the Leafs got off. As well, maybe in part due to expectations of coverage that was maybe unexpectedly leaving the ice, Steckel gave up on a Sens forward allowing two to get behind him and got caught in no man's land. I think he expected Komisarek & Gardiner to handle them but his decisions did leave him out of the play and in no effective place on the ice so maybe he deserves some responsibility.

Rightfully so, you criticized Gardiner for his poke check that missed and not taking at least one  man. But to some extent, both he and Komisarek got burned with that poor effort to get the puck deep and a poor change. There were a few blue jerseys that carried some responsibility for that play.

 

[Bullfrog]

Alfie is free to do whatever the hell he pleases.

I he wants to be traded to a contender, great.  If he wants to sign elsewhere as a UFA, fine.  If he wants to retire as a Senator, that's awesome too.

I just hope he returns to the Ottawa organization in some way, no matter what it is.

i wish more leafs fans would have been this reasonable regarding Sundin.

 

[Mot the Barber]

whats disgusting is some fans are now down to anaylzing how we could have lost a game that we won.

2pts!

Yeah because the Leafs have been so successful by celebrating these near-failures and seeing the positive in everything.  When have they made the playoffs last?  Oh but let's see the positive in everything, that's loser talk.  This isn't kindergarten where everyone's a winner

I'm sick of cheering for losers.  They better smarten up.