Author Topic: Rick Nash potentially available  (Read 66544 times)

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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 09:38:42 AM »
I don't think it's an insane number for him. He's still a very, very good hockey player... and for what it's worth, I think Malkin and Stamkos are pretty much bargains. I mean, you're talking about two of the top 5 players in the league.

And 2 of the 7 biggest cap hits in the league (which, to my mind, makes it hard to see them as bargains - they're paid what they're worth relative to other salaries in the league). Nash has one of the 5 biggest cap hits in the league. To justify that, he has to play/produce like one of the top 5-10 players in the league, and, I'm not sure he's capable of that - at least, not consistently enough to justify his salary/cap hit.
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 09:43:34 AM »
That's not entirely true.

Guys in the $7M+ range are:  Doughty, Iginla, Thornton, Spezza, Vanek, Campbell, Gomez, Weber, Stamkos, Gaborik, Heatley, Lecavalier, Staal, then the obvious Malkin, Crosby, Ovy.

I'd rather have Nash than a number of those guys.

Sure, but most of those contracts also have 2 or less seasons remaining on them after this one, whereas Nash has 6. Outside of the Campbell and Lecavalier mistakes, most of the players you'd take Nash over will be earning much less long before Nash does. He has the 5th biggest cap hit in the league, and he has that number for 6 seasons after this one, and, based on his production and contracts for players with similar numbers, he's overpaid by at least $2M.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 10:07:01 AM »
I don't think it's an insane number for him. He's still a very, very good hockey player... and for what it's worth, I think Malkin and Stamkos are pretty much bargains. I mean, you're talking about two of the top 5 players in the league.

And 2 of the 7 biggest cap hits in the league (which, to my mind, makes it hard to see them as bargains - they're paid what they're worth relative to other salaries in the league). Nash has one of the 5 biggest cap hits in the league. To justify that, he has to play/produce like one of the top 5-10 players in the league, and, I'm not sure he's capable of that - at least, not consistently enough to justify his salary/cap hit.

Not really sure where you're going with this. You don't like the contract. Fine. What are the options though? Struggle through mediocrity until a top 10 player with a bargain contract becomes available? Good luck with that. If Nash becomes available, and they arent asking us to gut the team to make the deal, you do it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 10:09:21 AM by RedLeaf »
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 10:30:15 AM »
Not really sure where you're going with this. You don't like the contract. Fine. What are the options though? Struggle through mediocrity until a top 10 player with a bargain contract becomes available? Good luck with that. If Nash becomes available, and they arent asking us to gut the team to make the deal, you do it.

Well, what you really need to ask yourself is does adding Rick Nash, with all the costs associated in terms of assets and cap hit, make the Leafs a Cup contender this year or in the near future? And, if we're being totally honest about the situation the team is in, the answer to that question is almost certainly "No." In fact, because of what it would cost in terms of assets to acquire him and because of how much of the Leafs' cap he'd take up in addition to some of the other pricey contracts that will remain on the books for the next few seasons, there's a good chance that adding Nash's $7.8M to the books while sacrificing a fair amount of talent/assets to bring it here would only serve to put the Leafs into a position where they'll stagnant or only show marginal improvements. As much as I would love the Leafs to add a top 10 player, do so at any cost is reckless and it's poor roster management. I'd much prefer to see the Leafs further improve their depth, strengthen their goaltending and improve their farm system than add a single player that won't serve to put them over the top.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 10:59:50 AM »
Not really sure where you're going with this. You don't like the contract. Fine. What are the options though? Struggle through mediocrity until a top 10 player with a bargain contract becomes available? Good luck with that. If Nash becomes available, and they arent asking us to gut the team to make the deal, you do it.

Well, what you really need to ask yourself is does adding Rick Nash, with all the costs associated in terms of assets and cap hit, make the Leafs a Cup contender this year or in the near future? And, if we're being totally honest about the situation the team is in, the answer to that question is almost certainly "No." In fact, because of what it would cost in terms of assets to acquire him and because of how much of the Leafs' cap he'd take up in addition to some of the other pricey contracts that will remain on the books for the next few seasons, there's a good chance that adding Nash's $7.8M to the books while sacrificing a fair amount of talent/assets to bring it here would only serve to put the Leafs into a position where they'll stagnant or only show marginal improvements. As much as I would love the Leafs to add a top 10 player, do so at any cost is reckless and it's poor roster management. I'd much prefer to see the Leafs further improve their depth, strengthen their goaltending and improve their farm system than add a single player that won't serve to put them over the top.

I agree with your logic. But that sounds more like a traditional style of rebuild to me. Burke has said many times that he's not interested in this approach. He's made it clear that he plans to fast track it. Whether or not it's the right way to do it, I have to think he would be very interested in acquiring Rick Nash right now for the right package. He's already on record saying he was very involved in the Brad Richards sweepstakes. What does that say about the direction he's taking with this team? It doesn't sound like the one you've laid out to me.
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 11:20:15 AM »
I agree with your logic. But that sounds more like a traditional style of rebuild to me. Burke has said many times that he's not interested in this approach. He's made it clear that he plans to fast track it. Whether or not it's the right way to do it, I have to think he would be very interested in acquiring Rick Nash right now for the right package. He's already on record saying he was very involved in the Brad Richards sweepstakes. What does that say about the direction he's taking with this team? It doesn't sound like the one you've laid out to me.

Outside of the Kessel deal, the one thing we haven't seen Burke do at all is deal the future for the now. He hasn't moved prominent young players or prospects for immediate help. In fact, he's done a lot of the opposite - traded guys who were helping the team now to acquire pieces that could be big parts of the future. As much as Burke has said he doesn't want a traditional rebuild, he has still made a number of moves that would fit in nicely to that plan. What he really meant when he said he didn't want a traditional rebuild was that he didn't want a team that would have to bottom out in order to improve - he felt he could make the team competitive now while still building for the future. Would he trade for Nash if the right deal was on the table? Sure, but, let's be honest here, that's not the deal that's likely to be available.

I've pointed this out a few times already, but, let's go over it again. Let's look at the situation in Columbus. Firstly, no one with any credibility has claimed Nash has asked to be moved, so, there's no pressure on Columbus to get this deal done in the next 2 weeks, if at all. The furthest most people is that they're listening on offers on Nash and that he's available. He's not actually being shopped. The desire to move Nash is not there, it's just a willingness to listen to see if there's something out there that will conceivably make the Blue Jackets a better team going forward. Secondly, we have a GM fighting for his job and we're discussing a deal for the current face of the franchise - a deal that would undoubtedly require ownership approval. Howson will not even present a deal to his boss unless he feels it's a clear win for the Blue Jackets. This means that Nash is not available for "fair value." It's going to take a serious overpayment to get a deal made. It's a deal that the Leafs are just not in a position to make right now.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 11:37:50 AM »

And 2 of the 7 biggest cap hits in the league (which, to my mind, makes it hard to see them as bargains - they're paid what they're worth relative to other salaries in the league).

Sorry, I can't agree. Malkin @ 8.7 and Stamkos @ 7.5? As far as I'm concerned, they're both worth max. money - OV style.

Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 11:42:00 AM »
I agree with your logic. But that sounds more like a traditional style of rebuild to me. Burke has said many times that he's not interested in this approach. He's made it clear that he plans to fast track it. Whether or not it's the right way to do it, I have to think he would be very interested in acquiring Rick Nash right now for the right package. He's already on record saying he was very involved in the Brad Richards sweepstakes. What does that say about the direction he's taking with this team? It doesn't sound like the one you've laid out to me.

Outside of the Kessel deal, the one thing we haven't seen Burke do at all is deal the future for the now. He hasn't moved prominent young players or prospects for immediate help. In fact, he's done a lot of the opposite - traded guys who were helping the team now to acquire pieces that could be big parts of the future. As much as Burke has said he doesn't want a traditional rebuild, he has still made a number of moves that would fit in nicely to that plan. What he really meant when he said he didn't want a traditional rebuild was that he didn't want a team that would have to bottom out in order to improve - he felt he could make the team competitive now while still building for the future. Would he trade for Nash if the right deal was on the table? Sure, but, let's be honest here, that's not the deal that's likely to be available.

I've pointed this out a few times already, but, let's go over it again. Let's look at the situation in Columbus. Firstly, no one with any credibility has claimed Nash has asked to be moved, so, there's no pressure on Columbus to get this deal done in the next 2 weeks, if at all. The furthest most people is that they're listening on offers on Nash and that he's available. He's not actually being shopped. The desire to move Nash is not there, it's just a willingness to listen to see if there's something out there that will conceivably make the Blue Jackets a better team going forward. Secondly, we have a GM fighting for his job and we're discussing a deal for the current face of the franchise - a deal that would undoubtedly require ownership approval. Howson will not even present a deal to his boss unless he feels it's a clear win for the Blue Jackets. This means that Nash is not available for "fair value." It's going to take a serious overpayment to get a deal made. It's a deal that the Leafs are just not in a position to make right now.

Yeah. I'm not saying, "There's a deal to be had for Nash. What is Burke waiting for?" All I'm saying is IF there is a deal that is reasonable to Burke, he will undoubtably take it. I don't think losing young players in the process is a huge concern for him, as long as he gets that big, still youthful, top 6 forward he is coveting, he does the deal.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 11:52:28 AM »
Anyhoo, I'm not sure the jackets jump on this rumoured deal with the rags... I'd have to think that they might seek a legit goaltender in the deal (if there is one.) The 'nucks perhaps for Schneider, Hodgson, and Raymond? Perhaps the Bruins for Rask, and/or Krejci/Lucic and a prospect?

Offline Rebel_1812

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 12:02:38 PM »
So a lot of rumours about Rick Nash and the Rangers.  Pierre McGuire was even discussing it, at length, this morning on the Team 1200.

The rumoured deal is Brandon Dubinsky, Chris Kreider and a 1st round pick.

Question:  Can we not beat that?  I love Dubinsky, and I realize Kreider is a very good prospect, but it's not a blow your socks off package by any means... also, do we WANT to beat that?

Better question... Do we want to be asking somewhere down the road; Why didn't we beat that?

that is what I think about Byfuglien.  Our package to chicago was much better and we got a worse player.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2012, 12:08:03 PM »
Outside of the Kessel deal, the one thing we haven't seen Burke do at all is deal the future for the now. He hasn't moved prominent young players or prospects for immediate help. In fact, he's done a lot of the opposite - traded guys who were helping the team now to acquire pieces that could be big parts of the future. As much as Burke has said he doesn't want a traditional rebuild, he has still made a number of moves that would fit in nicely to that plan. What he really meant when he said he didn't want a traditional rebuild was that he didn't want a team that would have to bottom out in order to improve

Yeah, we've touched on this a bit but last years deadline clearly signaled a shift towards a more traditional rebuild approach with Beauchemin, Versteeg and Kaberle all being dealt with future considerations ( and some present, like Lupul ) in mind.

Worrying about Nash being traded isn't worth the time of day to me, it's a continuation of unsubstantiated rumour that has little resemblence to real life.
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Offline Gerald The Duck

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2012, 12:35:08 PM »
I'm not sure where I stand on the Leafs trading for Nash, but on any discussion about Nash's production, it should be noted that he's had basically no top tier linemates over his entire career with Columbus.

Huselius? Vermette? Umberger? Not exactly all-stars.

Offline Coderaspberry

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2012, 01:25:39 PM »
While it's pretty murky whether or not Nash would actually be traded before the deadline, were I a GM I'd be working my butt off to make the deal.  Looking at his production in Columbus is, in my opinion, not the way to justify or refute his contract as being "good".  I mean...it's Columbus.

It's pretty obvious that he's a great all around player.  If you can make his contract work in your salary structure, and his abilities work with your team's system, then I don't see how you pass up the opportunity, if the acquisition cost is manageable.

My completely fabricated first offer:  Kadri, MacArthur, Aulie, and a 1st for Nash and a 3rd.

Offline Corn Flake

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2012, 02:01:10 PM »
I don't think it's an insane number for him. He's still a very, very good hockey player... and for what it's worth, I think Malkin and Stamkos are pretty much bargains. I mean, you're talking about two of the top 5 players in the league.

And 2 of the 7 biggest cap hits in the league (which, to my mind, makes it hard to see them as bargains - they're paid what they're worth relative to other salaries in the league). Nash has one of the 5 biggest cap hits in the league. To justify that, he has to play/produce like one of the top 5-10 players in the league, and, I'm not sure he's capable of that - at least, not consistently enough to justify his salary/cap hit.

Not really sure where you're going with this. You don't like the contract. Fine. What are the options though? Struggle through mediocrity until a top 10 player with a bargain contract becomes available? Good luck with that. If Nash becomes available, and they arent asking us to gut the team to make the deal, you do it.

I tend to agree.  At some point you have to go big or go home and we have clearly seen that the opportunities to acquire top end talent don't come along very often. 

Teams like the Flyers make moves like this all the time, both in and out, and manage to make it work.  The Leafs should be in the same vicinity and with Toronto drafting and developing so much more young talent, I think the assets are there to make moves like this and not blow gaping holes in the development pool. 

Burke should also be able to move out 1 or 2 of the mid-sized contracts he has that are kind of muddying the waters right now - too big to simply push out of the way but are players who are not going to be part of the solution long-term (ie: Lombardi, Connolly). 

As for the Rangers Dubinsky rumor, not sure where NYR is pretending to hide the rest of the $7.8 mil cap hit.

Offline Bonsixx

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Re: Rick Nash potentially available
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2012, 02:10:24 PM »
I don't think it's an insane number for him. He's still a very, very good hockey player... and for what it's worth, I think Malkin and Stamkos are pretty much bargains. I mean, you're talking about two of the top 5 players in the league.

And 2 of the 7 biggest cap hits in the league (which, to my mind, makes it hard to see them as bargains - they're paid what they're worth relative to other salaries in the league). Nash has one of the 5 biggest cap hits in the league. To justify that, he has to play/produce like one of the top 5-10 players in the league, and, I'm not sure he's capable of that - at least, not consistently enough to justify his salary/cap hit.

Not really sure where you're going with this. You don't like the contract. Fine. What are the options though? Struggle through mediocrity until a top 10 player with a bargain contract becomes available? Good luck with that. If Nash becomes available, and they arent asking us to gut the team to make the deal, you do it.

I tend to agree.  At some point you have to go big or go home and we have clearly seen that the opportunities to acquire top end talent don't come along very often. 

Teams like the Flyers make moves like this all the time, both in and out, and manage to make it work.  The Leafs should be in the same vicinity and with Toronto drafting and developing so much more young talent, I think the assets are there to make moves like this and not blow gaping holes in the development pool. 

Burke should also be able to move out 1 or 2 of the mid-sized contracts he has that are kind of muddying the waters right now - too big to simply push out of the way but are players who are not going to be part of the solution long-term (ie: Lombardi, Connolly). 

As for the Rangers Dubinsky rumor, not sure where NYR is pretending to hide the rest of the $7.8 mil cap hit.

I don't know, seems like it never matters with the Rangers. They sign everybody, they make trades for everybody, they never go over the cap.