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2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

Started by herman, May 22, 2022, 03:17:14 PM

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Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 19, 2023, 10:51:36 AMMarner with 2yrs on his deal and a Selke finalist. Not sure how you get better value. I think lots of front offices will chalk this up to the Leafs effect where he isn't the best in the playoffs due to hometown jitters etc.

I mean, you'd probably get slightly better value if the entirety of the fanbase weren't calling him an overpriced bum who can never help this team win. And two years on his deal.

I've said this before but, in general, your argument for getting a good return on a player relies on something along the lines of "These professional talent evaluators will not make the same very solid conclusion I have been able to reach about a player" then I think you're probably resorting to some wishful thinking.   

Quote from: Bender on May 19, 2023, 10:51:36 AMAnd I mean, the idea shouldn't just be for depth in the strictest sense, If we re-sign Matthews and Nylander then I don't think we need to be at the top in terms of overall talent. I think we've seen time and again that talent without a type of tenacity and grit is good on the margins but not in the core. Verhaghe's only in the conversation because he emerged to be that player. The Leafs have to try and get players back that aren't at their peak now but can be useful now and emerge to be better players in the following years. Sometimes you have to pull a St. Louis and reload.

I mean, I don't agree with either the idea that the players the Leafs have are especially lacking in tenacity or grit or that you need a certain kind of tenacity or grit to be successful in the playoffs and I think arguments that you do tend to work backwords from well, Evgeni Malkin/Patrick Kane/Nikita Kucherov have tenacity/grit because they've won but guys who haven't won don't have it and the proof is they haven't won. It really feels like everyone might have learned their lesson on that front with Phil Kessel and Ovechkin and the countless other examples but, well, there you are.

But regardless, this still doesn't read like a particularly good plan. Identifying your Verhaeghes of the world doesn't require trading guys like Marner and having a talent deficiency at the top is still a pretty big deal if you're looking to win things. Trading Marner, to me, is really just a recipe for this team in two or three years trying to figure out how to find another Marner.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

OldTimeHockey

Quote from: Nik on May 19, 2023, 11:04:33 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 19, 2023, 10:51:36 AMMarner with 2yrs on his deal and a Selke finalist. Not sure how you get better value. I think lots of front offices will chalk this up to the Leafs effect where he isn't the best in the playoffs due to hometown jitters etc.

I mean, you'd probably get slightly better value if the entirety of the fanbase weren't calling him an overpriced bum who can never help this team win. And two years on his deal.

I've said this before but, in general, your argument for getting a good return on a player relies on something along the lines of "These professional talent evaluators will not make the same very solid conclusion I have been able to reach about a player" then I think you're probably resorting to some wishful thinking.   

Quote from: Bender on May 19, 2023, 10:51:36 AMAnd I mean, the idea shouldn't just be for depth in the strictest sense, If we re-sign Matthews and Nylander then I don't think we need to be at the top in terms of overall talent. I think we've seen time and again that talent without a type of tenacity and grit is good on the margins but not in the core. Verhaghe's only in the conversation because he emerged to be that player. The Leafs have to try and get players back that aren't at their peak now but can be useful now and emerge to be better players in the following years. Sometimes you have to pull a St. Louis and reload.

I mean, I don't agree with either the idea that the players the Leafs have are especially lacking in tenacity or grit or that you need a certain kind of tenacity or grit to be successful in the playoffs and I think arguments that you do tend to work backwords from well, Evgeni Malkin/Patrick Kane/Nikita Kucherov have tenacity/grit because they've won but guys who haven't won don't have it and the proof is they haven't won. It really feels like everyone might have learned their lesson on that front with Phil Kessel and Ovechkin and the countless other examples but, well, there you are.

But regardless, this still doesn't read like a particularly good plan. Identifying your Verhaeghes of the world doesn't require trading guys like Marner and having a talent deficiency at the top is still a pretty big deal if you're looking to win things. Trading Marner, to me, is really just a recipe for this team in two or three years trying to figure out how to find another Marner.

Identifying your Verhaeghes seems more like throwing darts and hoping something hits.

Nik

Quote from: OldTimeHockey on May 19, 2023, 11:45:28 AMIdentifying your Verhaeghes seems more like throwing darts and hoping something hits.

That is, of course, fair. But some teams do seem to assemble enough talent in a short enough period of time that my inclination is to think there are a few Phil "The Power" Taylors out there.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Deebo

Quote from: Nik on May 19, 2023, 11:51:39 AM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on May 19, 2023, 11:45:28 AMIdentifying your Verhaeghes seems more like throwing darts and hoping something hits.

That is, of course, fair. But some teams do seem to assemble enough talent in a short enough period of time that my inclination is to think there are a few Phil "The Power" Taylors out there.

Did you google best dart players ever or did you already know that?

Nik

Quote from: Deebo on May 19, 2023, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 19, 2023, 11:51:39 AM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on May 19, 2023, 11:45:28 AMIdentifying your Verhaeghes seems more like throwing darts and hoping something hits.

That is, of course, fair. But some teams do seem to assemble enough talent in a short enough period of time that my inclination is to think there are a few Phil "The Power" Taylors out there.

Did you google best dart players ever or did you already know that?

I'm enough of an Anglophile to make the occasional reference like that. I also know, for instance, names like Ronnie O'Sullivan or Stephen Hendry.

I know absolutely nothing about them other than "They are considered good at their fairly niche sports" to be fair.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi


L K

He was held back initially due to insurance reasons.  Is it a Toronto Maple Leafs issue or an insurance problem.  Wasn't there reports of him wearing some supports on his back part way through the year.  Would certainly explain his drop off in play down the stretch and in the postseason. 

If he couldn't get signed off for insurance maybe it wasn't worth the risk of him going.  Particularly with a contract extension on the horizon (with the Leafs or elsewhere)

herman

Quote from: L K on May 20, 2023, 12:43:14 PMHe was held back initially due to insurance reasons.  Is it a Toronto Maple Leafs issue or an insurance problem.  Wasn't there reports of him wearing some supports on his back part way through the year.  Would certainly explain his drop off in play down the stretch and in the postseason. 

If he couldn't get signed off for insurance maybe it wasn't worth the risk of him going.  Particularly with a contract extension on the horizon (with the Leafs or elsewhere)


He wears a back support thing regularly these days. You can see it when they play two touch.

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