Author Topic: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)  (Read 5895 times)

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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 12:10:36 PM »
This case is not about justice.

Of course it is. Because of these charges James will be held accountable for crimes he committed. That's about as textbook a definition of justice as we have.
 
These charges were only made because Fleury has been in the spotlight for awhile now.

Fleury finally admitted what happened. That's enough for most people. 

  If James is not sentenced to jail and gets what some think will be a conditional sentence what have we really gained here.  Plenty of dollars and resources have been spent to do nothing about a crime everyone knew he was guilty of 15 years ago.

Again, what additional resources? This is precisely why crown prosecutors get paid. If a judge sentences him to a conditional sentence then who knows what effect it might have. It might outrage people sufficiently to get sentencing laws changed. It may give some of his victims a sense of closure as it seems to have for Greg Gilhooly.

Seriously, you're arguing that a guy shouldn't be prosecuted for the sexual abuse of a minor. Give your head a shake.
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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 12:10:36 PM »

Offline Bates

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 03:22:49 PM »
Yeah Nik that's just what I am saying.  You can be such a douche.  I happen to live in the real world where police and the justice dept operate in a budget world that most seem to think is underfunded.  In my real world there is also a backlog of present cases and taking resources from these investigations and prosecutions have a real effect on the present safety and security of all of us.  I would assume when the police and prosecuter cherged James 15 years ago they were well aware that Fleury was a victum and went ahead with case while respecting the wishes of Fleury not to be involved.

Our justice system has a couple of purposes.  It is to punish people who break the law and to rehabilitate those who have offended.  Graham James has been punished for the crimes of pedophilia in the time frame that Fleury was molested(not enough really).  There has been no alegations of abuse since that time that I am aware of so I think that the limited budget that the police and prosecutors have to use could be used for better causes than to rehash an old crime.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 03:48:52 PM »
Yeah Nik that's just what I am saying.

I know. I'm surprised too. Or, you know, I would be if it were anyone else. 

I happen to live in the real world where police and the justice dept operate in a budget world that most seem to think is underfunded.  In my real world there is also a backlog of present cases and taking resources from these investigations and prosecutions have a real effect on the present safety and security of all of us

Again, this is just pure nonsense. This wasn't the result of a length police investigation or costly trial. This is a plea bargain. This is precisely what crown attorneys get paid to do.

  I would assume when the police and prosecuter cherged James 15 years ago they were well aware that Fleury was a victum and went ahead with case while respecting the wishes of Fleury not to be involved.

Well, first off, there's absolutely no basis for that assumption. Regardless, I'll say it again, what they might "know" and what they can prove are two different things and it's what they can prove that informs their decision to prosecute. That they didn't prosecute 15 years ago is a good indication that they didn't think they had a strong enough case to go forward with, not that they decided, "Nah, we should only charge him with a few of the assaults".

These charges are not, no matter how many times you claim to the contrary, just about Theo Fleury. These are the results of multiple complaints by three separate victims. Regardless of what information crown attorneys had in the past do you actually believe that when three different people come forth with those kinds of allegations the crown should shrug their shoulders and say "nah, we got him for different assaults so we're good"?

It is to punish people who break the law and to rehabilitate those who have offended.  Graham James has been punished for the crimes of pedophilia in the time frame that Fleury was molested(not enough really). 

Pedophilia is not a crime. It's a condition. The crimes were the sexual assault of a minor. Each and every case of that should be tried and prosecuted. That's why there is no statute of limitations on these acts. By virtue of that fact it's deemed that any prosecution of that crime is "timely". Nobody should get to skate on those crimes based on the passage of time or the convictions for any other separate crimes.

But, hey, crowd source it. Figure out the general public's appetite for a point at which these crimes can be swept under the rug as old news. See if they have the appetite for the government's attorneys prosecuting these cases.

Something tells me you'll find yourself on an awfully small island.
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Offline Bates

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 04:15:02 PM »
There was obviously an investigation by Winnipeg police as well as the Crown Attorney or the case would never have went to a plea bargain. And I would guess that the crowd source answer woulkd really depend on the question. If I asked if they would like to see a child molester cahrged and jailed for their crime I would assume every person asked would say yes. But if the question was would you like to see months of police investigation and prosecutors time used to charge a person who has apparently been rehabilitated only to have the person plead guilty and receive basicly no sentence the answer may not be as affirmative.

Offline Madferret

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 04:17:22 PM »
This may be a bit harsh but the only thing Graham deserves is to have his genitals removed.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 04:21:25 PM »
But if the question was would you like to see months of police investigation and prosecutors time used to charge a person who has apparently been rehabilitated only to have the person plead guilty and receive basicly no sentence the answer may not be as affirmative.

I think most people's answers to that would that they'd like to see the system changed so that the sentence was stiffer and that all of these crimes, regardless of when they were committed, were prosecuted to the full extent of the law and the criminals received harsh sentences for them.

Your argument is entirely based around assumptions that you can't back up like the cost of the police investigation and whatever the sentence may end up being. All we do know is that this guy is getting prosecuted for sexual assault and I'm guessing that everyone except you is going to be relatively fine with that.
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Offline Bates

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 04:27:28 PM »
Now most of this I agree completely with. Child molesters prob should spend a considerable amount of their life in jail as they have taken a lot of life from their victims. And if this prosecution was to result in a long incarceration for James then I am all for it but I have read a few lawyers and law professors who think this will end in a conditional sentence and I don't think that makes sense???

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2011, 04:53:53 PM »
There was obviously an investigation by Winnipeg police as well as the Crown Attorney or the case would never have went to a plea bargain. And I would guess that the crowd source answer woulkd really depend on the question. If I asked if they would like to see a child molester cahrged and jailed for their crime I would assume every person asked would say yes. But if the question was would you like to see months of police investigation and prosecutors time used to charge a person who has apparently been rehabilitated only to have the person plead guilty and receive basicly no sentence the answer may not be as affirmative.

I'm not following how his apparent rehabilitation has anything to do with whats being discussed. His guilt regarding a serious crime deserves a prosecution. his victim deserves justice. If the courts decide that justice is a slap on the wrist and a frown, well, that's another debate. He needs to be sentenced and held accountable, as others have mentioned. if another victim comes forward in ten years from now, then he needs to be sentenced again.

Offline cw

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2011, 05:23:22 PM »
... but I have read a few lawyers and law professors who think this will end in a conditional sentence and I don't think that makes sense???

If he's guilty, it doesn't.

BUT if they didn't have a solid case to prove that guilt - it's flimsy "he said he said" stuff with few witnesses from 25 years ago, etc then they'd have to explore some sort of plea bargain with a lighter sentence to get any conviction at all. Remember, the Crown has to be able to prove their case.

Although conditional sentence has been mentioned in reports, it's seems quite remote conjecture to me that that is what will transpire:
Graham James could avoid more jail tim
McGillivray says a defence lawyer could argue James hasn't been convicted of any crimes since that period in the 1980s and '90s.

Crown attorney Colleen McDuff has said she will be seeking penitentiary time, but McGillivray says that's not a given.

"What the judge could do is consider the time that has passed since that period in the accused's life and say, 'Well, look, we've had 20 years where we've had no similar conduct, so we're not looking at specific deterrence and we're not looking at rehabilitation, because that's all done.'

"A lighter sentence could include no jail time. It could include a conditional sentence."

There is no shortage of people calling for a harsh sentence.


A defence lawyer may well try to make that argument. The judge may consider some of that argument as legit because based upon the facts known to us, it may well be legit. The important thing that I derive from that exchange above is that the Crown is seeking jail time. They didn't have to bargain it away to get a guilty plea so the judge has the option to send him to jail. The Crown wouldn't push for jail time if a deal had been made to limit jail time to get the plea.

Something else they didn't say and may have come up with the Kennedy case: they may have asked for a full confession of all his crimes to arrive at the original sentence they did for those crimes. If he lied to them back then and said Kennedy and the other victim were the only ones, then the judge could really let him have it in this go round. They can argue "how do we know he's not lying about others since? How do we know he's really rehabilitated? He lied to us to get a light sentence the last time."

If James is caught doing that, they'll lock him up for a long time.

Lastly, in a high profile case such as this is, the judge is going to be careful. If he has any hopes to advance higher up in the courts, he can't afford to mess this sentence up.

Offline cw

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2011, 05:53:55 PM »
There was obviously an investigation by Winnipeg police as well as the Crown Attorney or the case would never have went to a plea bargain. And I would guess that the crowd source answer woulkd really depend on the question. If I asked if they would like to see a child molester cahrged and jailed for their crime I would assume every person asked would say yes. But if the question was would you like to see months of police investigation and prosecutors time used to charge a person who has apparently been rehabilitated only to have the person plead guilty and receive basicly no sentence the answer may not be as affirmative.

I'm not following how his apparent rehabilitation has anything to do with whats being discussed. His guilt regarding a serious crime deserves a prosecution. his victim deserves justice. If the courts decide that justice is a slap on the wrist and a frown, well, that's another debate. He needs to be sentenced and held accountable, as others have mentioned. if another victim comes forward in ten years from now, then he needs to be sentenced again.

One consideration for deciding incarceration is whether the criminal is a danger to himself or society. If James can establish he has rehabilitated (the stats for pedophiles vary with some some studies being quite favorable - I'm not sold), then the judge has to give that consideration.

That doesn't get him off the hook for being punished for this crime. As well, repeat offenders get stiffer sentences.

Offline moon111

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2011, 06:41:09 PM »
...And for the record Moon I am with you 100% on your idea. I would enjoy my peace in my 8x10 after settling my score with Graham.
Doesn't Fleury own a concrete business?  There's way to make a body disappear for a long, long time.
R.I.P. Maureen.  You'll always be with us.

Offline Bates

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 11:46:49 AM »
Fleury pretty irate about this article in the Montreal Gazette but the article is fairly accurate.  Not nice and a kick in the groin for Theoren but also fairly accurate.

link
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 12:13:53 PM by cw »

Offline Corn Flake

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2011, 11:55:12 AM »
Fleury pretty irate about this article in the Montreal Gazette but the article is fairly accurate.  Not nice and a kick in the groin for Theoren but also fairly accurate.

link

Here is a response to his article from Julie Veilleux, known around the hockey circles on twitter @metricjulie for her recent blog where she revealed she was a victim of incest. Jeff Marek, among others, have given her a lot of credit for speaking out.

This was her response to Hickey from last night: http://metricjulie.tumblr.com/#14138707559

She was also interviewed on TSN Montreal last night as well after writing that.  Interesting stuff.  The last paragraph just drills it home.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 12:14:26 PM by cw »

Offline Bates

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2011, 12:00:14 PM »
I am lucky to have no understanding of the feelings of a sexual abuse victum and am very thankful for that.  The first article does have a good point about Fleury being a part owner of the Hitmen and allowing James to be hired by that team.  He could have had the pervert fired without even coming out with his story.

Offline Corn Flake

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 12:04:56 PM »
I am lucky to have no understanding of the feelings of a sexual abuse victum and am very thankful for that.  The first article does have a good point about Fleury being a part owner of the Hitmen and allowing James to be hired by that team.  He could have had the pervert fired without even coming out with his story.

Have you read his book? He explains that situation in detail.

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Re: Graham James Pleads Guilty to Sex Assaults (again)
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 12:04:56 PM »